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Hello, everybody. My name is Daniel Prince, and I'm the host of the Once Bitten podcast.

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This is a podcast focused on Bitcoin. It's my mission to interview as many people as I can

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around the different aspects of Bitcoin and help people understand exactly what Bitcoin could mean

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for them and for their families and for their future. I hope you enjoy the show. Thank you so

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much for listening. Hello everybody and welcome to this episode of the Once Bitten podcast. Joining

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me today is Michael Tanguma who's the CEO and co-founder of OnRamp Bitcoin. They offer you

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multi-institutional, multi-jurisdictional cold storage for your Bitcoin. We get into all of that.

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We ask, actually, Michael about his past, and it's up there on his LinkedIn profile that he used to work for WeWork,

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and he has some very interesting stories about those insider days at WeWork

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and leaving just a matter of months before they went under

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and the big scandal surrounding that whole blow-up with Adam Neumann.

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Thank you for coming on, Michael. Thank you for being so open.

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And we also get into, of course, Bitcoin Paper Summer and his thoughts on Bitcoin treasury companies, which as somebody offering multi-institutional, multi-jurisdictional cold storage for your Bitcoin, you would think he's probably got a pretty good handle on and idea of what people should be doing in order to secure their Bitcoin and how to apply Bitcoin to a balance sheet on a company.

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so before we get into all that thank you as always to the show sponsors if you're not stacking sats

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you should be i'm sure you are by now but please make sure you do it in the best way you possibly

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can if you're new to bitcoin obviously get out there meet as many people as you can bitcoiners

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real bitcoiners you can do this by joining orange pill app download the app yes it's a paid app the

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reason being if it's if it's free you are the product and the the app is only for bitcoiners

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So you try and limit the amount of bots and crypto bros by putting up that barrier.

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And you can pay with Bitcoin.

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You can pay via the Lightning Network.

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It's like $4 a month.

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It's not going to break you.

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But the opportunity cost of not being in there means you don't get to meet Bitcoiners in real life.

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Or you only get to meet them when you get to the conferences.

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Talking of which, just been to Riga.

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That was amazing.

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Off to Helsinki.

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I hope to see some of you guys there.

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But download Orange Pill app.

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Find out where your local meetups are.

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Find out where your local Bitcoiners are.

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And if you don't believe me, which you shouldn't,

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take my word for anything, you should do your own research.

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Go back two or three episodes and find my episode

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labeled From Broadway to Bitcoin with Dion Wilson.

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And he talks about how the Orange Pill app rescued him

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from loneliness after six years.

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Please, again, make sure you're stacking sats the best way you can.

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Get peer-to-peer if possible.

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If not, there are going to be Bitcoin-only companies in your jurisdiction.

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Across Europe, you can find Relai, R-E-L-A-I dot C-H forward slash Bitten.

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Download the app today, use the code Bitten,

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and start stacking up to 1,000 Swiss or equivalent directly into your own custodial wallet,

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which is Lightning enabled as well.

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But you will be asked to take control.

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You'll have to write down the words.

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It's your Bitcoin.

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So relay.ch forward slash bitten, R-E-L-A-I is how you spell relay.

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You have very much a similar kind of company offering the same services out in the US.

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That's swanbitcoin.com forward slash bitten.

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And again, use the code bitten when you download the app.

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But please take self-custody of your Bitcoin.

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If you have been stacking Bitcoin for a little while, maybe they're on an app or maybe they're on an exchange, get them into cold storage.

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You need to have complete control over your Bitcoin.

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You can do that by heading over to bitbox.swiss forward slash Bitten.

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Using the code Bitten at checkout will get you 5% discount.

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They have a new product coming out, the Bitbox Nova,

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which I'm very much looking forward to get my hands on,

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to have a play around with, to see what the new features are.

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I know it will be very secure and very safe

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because this is what they are completely 100% focused on

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and they've been around for a long time.

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Now, are you using Bitcoin as a medium of exchange?

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Do you want to start accepting Bitcoin for your goods and services?

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You can.

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Get over to plebeian.market and start shilling what you have.

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And also, use paywithflash.com.

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Easy.

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Paywithflash.com.

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Plug and play.

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It's all done for you.

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It's sorted, built by Bitcoiners, for Bitcoiners,

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for you to be able to start easily accepting Bitcoin.

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So get over to paywithflash.com.

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Lastly, hopefully, you're listening to this episode on Fountain.

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Give me a boost over there. Say hi.

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And listen to the episode I did with Kaz, K-A-Z,

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because they've brought out a new podcasting experience,

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and it's called Bubble FM, B-U-B-B-L.F-M,

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where you can start curating your listening to topics.

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So you choose the topic that you want the AI to listen out for.

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Their technology behind that will listen to all of the Bitcoin content

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and just clip the bits of that podcast that you want to listen to.

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Maybe it's Bitcoin treasury companies.

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I hope not.

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But if so, you might get an hour and a half opinion piece

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from like 10 to 15 different people across 10 to 15 different podcasts

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using bubble.fm.

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Meanwhile, sit back and enjoy this rip with Michael.

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All right, we are recording.

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Michael, it's been a long time coming.

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We've never had you on the show.

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And I know as you were explaining to Lauren,

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You've been listening to her ask the first question for many years back in the day as well when the podcast first launched in January 2020.

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So, yeah, it's been around a little while.

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So, well, thank you for listening.

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And it's great to actually connect and interact with you.

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Yeah, I'm excited to have the discussion.

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And to be completely honest, probably most daunting interview from the question from Lauren because, you know, everyone's had such great answers.

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my good friend you know parker perker lewis always has a wonderful answer to lauren's questions and

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now whatever comes up i have to like live up to that i don't know if i can okay yes parker revels

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in those questions doesn't he yeah okay lauren okay what do you have um so danny was telling me

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on how you do like a lot or you've been doing a lot of projects and my question is what is your

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favorite project you've worked on or projects oh that's a dangerous question because it's like

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asking in front of all your children what's your you know your favorite child and you're

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gonna piss somebody off yeah well no i do that all the time oh yeah yeah

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it's a difficult one i'm going to take the easy route and say they're equally between on-ramp

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been early writers. And I'll say on-ramp is important because I think multi-institution

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custody. You've heard a lot of podcasts and conversations around gold and Bitcoin. I think

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the thing that makes Bitcoin different than gold, and this is a little bit of a taboo topic, but

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it's really the fact that you can insert governance. You can have at the protocol level,

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at the asset layer. That's where gold failed. And so I think that it's that transformative for

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Bitcoin and how it will be money globally. But then early riders, I say equally on the other

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side, because I think capital formation, the way people have invested or built businesses has been

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broken for a very long time. And it's something me and your father are probably going to talk about

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when we think about Bitcoin treasury companies and the incentive alignment. And I think that

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once you get back to the basics of the return of capital has to be sound. We had done this before

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with gold we went away from it and the fiat in the dollar world that that also will equally be

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profound and how society will change once everyone starts to just have a unit of account that we all

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agree on and it's going to make everyone more efficient because a lot of businesses will just

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go away so it's a it's a hard one because they're kind of both also really intertwined um

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so i don't know hopefully that that was a decent enough answer yeah so early riders did you want

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to explain to Lauren what early riders is and the listeners, obviously, that might be wondering what

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that does. Yeah. So Lauren, on the honor side, it's financial services for Bitcoin. It's a private

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Bitcoin banking. So for individuals that get exposure, need support, honor, you know, helps,

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and we can talk more about that. And then early riders is think of it as like the investment bank.

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It's the opportunity for our clients in the outside world that's looking to express their

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view and getting an allocation into the Bitcoin world or the way that people will be building.

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And so they invest, but it's all in Bitcoin. So it's denominated in Bitcoin. We take our fees.

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If we don't make our investors any money, we get no fees. So we try to align everyone to be on the

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same side of the table. We're in traditional investing, independent of what anybody's return

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is, you're going to have your management fees and then some form of carry that's just above

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kind of the interest rate on capital. Okay. So they help companies. Yep. Startups. Yep. Perfect.

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Well done. How many other Bitcoin companies or projects have you worked on or launched or been

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involved with? So we can get a kind of a rounded picture of how long you've been around the space.

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Yeah. So I personally in the space, roughly 10 years, and then have been building infrastructure

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around Bitcoin custody for a little over half a decade. My journey was a little interesting or

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unique because I was in traditional tech before. So I was at Google and YC back companies.

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And then I was at WeWork and I was actually learning about money while I was lighting money

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on fire. I don't know, Lauren, if you're familiar, but WeWork has this famous guy, Adam Neumann,

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and it was just an amazing salesperson and kind of destroyed a lot of capital.

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um a lot of people they're like we'll see when i have podcasts i'll see the comments he's like you

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should leave the we work part out it's like i love talking about we work because ultimately

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the only way you can really build great things in life is you have to know how to do things right

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and have taken those experiences but it's almost important how to know what not to do and to learn

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from those experiences and so i came from that world and then uh met who we were talking about

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previously uh parker because i was uh like all bitcoiners get in and you buy some explore not

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all Bitcoiners now. Now Bitcoiners are buying some treasury stuff. But at the time, the old

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school way to buy Bitcoin is you just bought the Bitcoin and it was on Gemini and I knew I needed

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to get it off of an exchange. And so I couldn't be alone on an island with a little plastic device

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for all my wealth. But I also knew I couldn't wake up one day in the exchange to say, hey,

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Michael, we can't give you your Bitcoin. And so that led me to the collaborative custody rabbit

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hole. It was Casa or Unchained, took a liking to Unchained because really, frankly, they were from

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my home state, Texas, and right around Austin.

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Became good friends with Parker.

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He took a keen eye and like,

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hey, when you move back, we gotta get you plugged in.

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And I'm sure you know Daniel, Parker's pretty persistent.

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I moved back home and he was hounding me Joined that business And that kind of how my journey really into building in the ecosystem started Helped for a bit on the 1031 side to establish that fund

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Worked with Marty, Matt, and the guys there.

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And then ultimately in 22, everything kind of just blew up in the kind of crypto digital asset world.

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And it just kind of took a step back.

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It was like, man, there's a lot of things that don't feel right here.

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And so that's really what was sparked a lot of on-ramp and early riders and the stuff we're building today.

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oh all right any further questions lauren i do not no thank you all right cool well thank you

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very much great to meet you lauren even though i've heard you multiple times and uh have a good

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rest of your day great to meet you too thank you have a good day bye-bye it's funny you brought up

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uh we work because there it is right up on your linkedin and uh i i yeah i get what people are

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saying it's like oh man you should take that down you don't want to be associated with but like what

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was what was going on from the inside like what what when did you start kind of because i remember

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it was such a huge thing and co-working spaces were the next thing right this was going to unlock

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the digital nomads this was it was kind of all part of the sovereign individual thesis as well

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and uh if people had already gone down the rabbit hole on that they could they were probably looking

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at these things well this is this is the future and i remember watching newman and yeah very

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persuasive character and money was being thrown at him left right and center it must have been

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wild to be sitting on the inside of that and seeing that come in and yeah look what was your

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role and when did you start kind of what's what's going on here it's a it's such a fascinating great

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question. I don't get to talk about it enough. It was easily the best time I've had outside of,

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I would say, unchained and what we're doing now. But if I had to put so far, because I think we're

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just getting started on it, probably the best time in my professional experience. And the reason why

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is because the thing that most people forget is that there's a reason why Silicon Valley and tech

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companies are labeled and have the best and largest valuations. There's a field component to it.

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But at the end of the day, you know, fiat, the dollar drives incentives. And so if you can pay, you hear about meta and open AI, they're hiring the best people in the world today at millions of dollars. And so those people, you're working with the best operators on the planet earth.

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and so one of my key alerts is that we were it was the highest level caliber of people i've ever

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worked with all my entire life like on rank is probably the closest and how we've really been

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careful and who we hire but it was it was um because you're getting the investment bankers

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you're getting people the people i remember specifically were like from linkedin for whatever

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reason linkedin hired just absolute killers when they were back in the 2010s to 14s so we brought

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a lot of people on because there was a vp of sales that came on and they kind of recruit from their

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old girl crew. And the thing that's really sad is that we work as a concept is a sound business,

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like to leverage vertical integration, to take a larger lease and then sub-parse it out and you

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provide people flexibility. Like all of that is not a Ponzi. What turns into Ponzi is when you,

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or not even a Ponzi, what turns into a bad business model and bad incentives is when you,

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Well, you take multiple things.

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You take one is MASA and a Japanese fund that is just required to go and blow, you know, just kind of like shoot capital out into anything.

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And then you take somebody that's equally willing to accept it and say, we can go bigger and be very ambitious.

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And then you take something that's physical constraints and you start to layer a lot of these things.

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And that's how you ultimately, again, it all comes down to the incentives.

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but before going to the direct question

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when I realized it,

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I will say that it honestly resembled

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a lot of Bitcoin internally

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because internally everyone,

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if you remember the slogan was

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to make a life, not a living, right?

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And that's actually kind of like

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what we're trying to do here.

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It's right, to make a life, not a living,

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like not to work, just to work,

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but to actually do it.

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I think you've done a good job

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of inserting that like mix of it.

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And I think of myself,

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I have a lot of stuff going on,

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but I just think about it living.

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I don't think about it as work,

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which is I think the goal

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where we want to get to. And that's what people were subscribing to there. It's like people have

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been tired of being at the McKinsey's and all these companies and making bland real estate and

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cubicles. And you got there and it was activating this space. And it was things that Google and

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others had picked up on. You want to be able to go there. The thing that they kind of missed that

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we all know is you got to have more of the meaning is just the physical space. The work has to matter,

224
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but that's what would matter for the people is that they were changing the world by making,

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helping all of these companies insert the level of like that we were culture into them. So people

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didn't hate their lives and enjoy going to work. And so people were passionate and they were 18

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hour days. I don't know if this is widely known, but they used to have, thank God it's Monday

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because in the culture was like, you would stay after work Monday. They had dinners and everyone

229
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would be there and the people work late. And then they partied hard and they like,

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we did a lot of stuff because all this capital being burned. So that's where it was like,

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it was an amazing experience because you're also working with the best people. So you're learning

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now where um what i really realized that it was all kind of like a fugazi really was um

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it was interesting because i grew up in texas and i and i and it's not just texas i think but

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there's probably a lot of places where in smaller towns meritocracy reigns true like you do what

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you say you get rewarded you don't do what you say you don't get rewarded you have a stain people

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recognize that they don't trust you. And then that's just how life works. And as we went,

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because that was very early to WeWork in the enterprise side. So I saw us go. And as we were

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scaling and it all just started getting really murky and hazy and who was getting promoted,

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who was getting rewarded with the right deals. Cause we were working with the largest companies

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in the world and it all just stopped making sense. But then what really started happening,

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you see this across metrics as well, bankrupted BlockFi and others is ultimately when people raise

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capital, it's almost like the same thing with the debt markets where more debt requires more debt

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to keep it sustained in the same way as like if you invest in a company and they need more company

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to get to profitability, the heuristic is they're never going to get to profitability because if

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they couldn't generally have done it on the first or second round, there's no reason why more capital

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is going to help. And so what happens is you get these metrics or KPIs that everyone's looking at

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as the shiny star. And then as long as you can hit those metrics, the investors will go. And so

248
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So ours were desks because we'd sell these whole buildings to Amazon and there would

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be like 20,000 desks in the building.

250
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And then sometimes you sell five desks because that was like, you know, just what a normal

251
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small team would need.

252
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So desk was the KPIs.

253
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And so we started giving away desks for free or cutting on like for the first year on a

254
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five-year contract.

255
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It started getting so crazy.

256
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But the thing that stood out is nobody really thought it.

257
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There was only one other guy that I worked with.

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He was super smart, grew up in Pittsburgh and was at Carnegie Mellon.

259
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He was a mechanical engineer by trade.

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So he just had some first principle thinking to him. And he just knew money didn't grow on trees. And we would just sit there and do these deals. We do our job, but we're like, this doesn't make any sense. Like none of this makes sense. God bless him. He stayed there a long time.

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But where my story kind of gets fun is I recognized this in 18, found Bitcoin. So I was like, this doesn't even make sense. Even if I wanted to stay or didn't want to stay, I had already saw Bitcoin and realized there's a lot of people that naturally, once they see it, they got to get involved in some way.

262
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So I had been just already, I go back to my 2018 emails and it's just emailing almost everyone.

263
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And so I knew I was going to leave.

264
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And in Q1 of 2019, we were, cause the hot thing, there were rumored to IPO for $48 billion

265
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that summer.

266
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And SoftBank was doing a tender offer to buy back some of the capital.

267
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And so everyone internally thinks we're all like going to be rich and all stuff.

268
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I'm like, this doesn't make any sense to me.

269
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I don't know how this works.

270
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And I found this other thing and it's a lot more liquid and all the things we know. And this is, you know, Bitcoin's $3,000 at the time because this is as the price is running down in 2018 and then 2019.

271
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And I was like, there was opportunity cost to exercise the option. You have to put up front capital and then you have to take the shares and versus they were just going to buy it outright in cash. And then I had that money. And so I just like sold, you know, naturally sold the shares and had that because I already invested and was able to buy Bitcoin.

272
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and uh and it's just a funny thing in my like hindsight because six months later like the whole

273
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thing fell apart um so it was a very wild ride but it was very informative to everything that

274
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i kind of do today because it's just you only get one chance to see that i didn't know it was

275
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going to be the poster child of kind of the whole biot serp world i can imagine your colleagues as

276
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well like what are you doing you're crazy just another six months we're gonna ipo we're all

277
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going to be rich you know big titty pictures and eternal riches like that because everybody gets

278
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swept up in that it's not just the icos and whatever else and we'll talk about bitcoin

279
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treasury companies in a second as well but uh yeah i'm sure you had a lot of people

280
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side-eyeing your decision then and um well look what happened we work falls over bitcoin's still

281
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around and you're here building in the Bitcoin space, more companies. Yeah. I mean, it's kind

282
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of been the thing I've always, it's never good at the time until hindsight, but I've always just

283
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tried to be truthful to myself. Because at the end of the day, if you can't live with yourself,

284
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then what are you supposed to do? And so I just remember it's always like a lagging indicator

285
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because, and Peter Thiel's talked about this a little bit, even though I probably should stop

286
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referencing him because recently he's not looking so good. But it's always the notion of like,

287
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it's always going to be the out of the box thinkers do something. And then you'll see

288
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like the investment bankers come in because they're always playing off of like the old thing

289
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of like, you got to go to school, get the MBA. And now people don't go to school. It's the hot

290
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thing. And very similarly, like going to WeWork, leaving Google to go to WeWork, my in-laws at the

291
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time, my girlfriend's parents were like, that's kind of weird. That's like, what is WeWork and

292
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all this stuff. And then WeWork was so hot over those two years. And then when I was leaving WeWork,

293
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He was like, well, what are you doing? I was like, just trust me. When you're inside, you have a lot of additional data. And so, yeah, I think about it kind of ties into a lot of the stuff we're doing now. It's been a two-year slog, but it's starting to become a little bit more apparent of like, well, wait, maybe you don't want to hold all this money in your house. And maybe you don't want to leave it on a third party.

294
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in the same way of like,

295
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I had this epiphany the other night,

296
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the other weekend.

297
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I was like, holy crap, guys.

298
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It's like, we fully intend to like,

299
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you know, return to our hurdle rate

300
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at Early Riders is 1.25X.

301
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We get no carry if we don't return over to 1.25

302
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for time value of money and all liquidity and all that.

303
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But it hit me, it was like,

304
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even if we like barely hit Bitcoin's return

305
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or just slightly below wherever we sit,

306
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we'll be the best performing fund out of all of venture.

307
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And like all this money will come in

308
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because of that, because there's a notion of the heuristic of being more principled and efficient

309
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and cost of capital is not 2% or 6%. It's something much higher. And that discerning is

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what creates great companies. So it's this notion of like just swimming just slightly ahead of the

311
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puck before the rest of the market is like how you can act. And then you get to galvanize because

312
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you pull all the people that like see it. When we launched multi-institution, there's a couple

313
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guys that are with us today that saw it right off the bat. And it's because it's crystal clear.

314
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and that how you build like an actual movement And then eventually the market like oh so odd It like everyone going to repeat back that Bitcoin was so obvious 21 million in a land of infinite capital But we know that not how it worked

315
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And there was a whole bunch of crypto whitewashing

316
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that's going to happen between now and there.

317
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And probably PubCo treasure whitewashing too

318
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if it plays out in the way that maybe we think it will.

319
00:23:41,544 --> 00:23:42,204
Yeah, absolutely.

320
00:23:42,644 --> 00:23:44,044
Okay, right.

321
00:23:44,584 --> 00:23:46,924
Let's move to, well, on-ramp.

322
00:23:46,924 --> 00:23:53,784
I think most people are by now pretty much aware of what you guys do and what you offer.

323
00:23:54,144 --> 00:23:58,404
But and if anybody wants to do a deep dive on that, they can go back.

324
00:23:58,504 --> 00:24:00,784
I've had Andy and Jesse.

325
00:24:01,604 --> 00:24:05,824
They've come on the show before to talk about OnRamp at length.

326
00:24:05,984 --> 00:24:12,124
But if you just want to give people a quick update as to what OnRamp is and the services that you offer and any updates.

327
00:24:13,904 --> 00:24:14,964
Yeah, for sure.

328
00:24:14,964 --> 00:24:18,804
At the core, HonorM operates like a private banking experience.

329
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So for individuals all the way to endowments and institutions, we work with the first UK

330
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pensions.

331
00:24:24,024 --> 00:24:25,784
Now, increasingly, Pupco's are coming to us.

332
00:24:26,304 --> 00:24:29,304
But the kicker is it's all built on multi-institution custody.

333
00:24:29,944 --> 00:24:34,284
Multi-institution custody, it's kind of the hybrid between self-custody and the assets

334
00:24:34,284 --> 00:24:36,464
are on-chain, verifiable, cold storage.

335
00:24:36,804 --> 00:24:41,144
But you don't have to participate or manage any of the cryptographic material.

336
00:24:41,144 --> 00:24:46,264
and then it also is the it has the simplicity of a single custodian like when you onboard to a

337
00:24:46,264 --> 00:24:52,424
coinbase or a single entity you get that same experience or fidelity um i personally get very

338
00:24:52,424 --> 00:24:56,564
excited about it because i think about there's different analogies in text history whether it's

339
00:24:56,564 --> 00:25:03,424
the browser or um the browser the telephone these used to have to like connect wires uh

340
00:25:03,424 --> 00:25:10,324
and like to to do across like the the country and there's one other analogy that was just

341
00:25:10,324 --> 00:25:16,664
recently coming across oh the computer um if you really like go back in time and see like how they

342
00:25:16,664 --> 00:25:20,584
had to create the punch cards and the mainframes and you had to like write the code for the certain

343
00:25:20,584 --> 00:25:24,924
piece of software to do it like that's what you can we're going to look back at the analogy and

344
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i had to talk people through during my time at unchained on collaborative custody because no

345
00:25:28,604 --> 00:25:32,944
wealthy people want to hold all this capital in their house and they did they definitely didn't

346
00:25:32,944 --> 00:25:37,684
want to do it at ten thousand dollars they 100 because we're all working like crazy at 100k and

347
00:25:37,684 --> 00:25:44,524
imagine 250,000. And so that's kind of our core pillar is like, okay, how do we build best in

348
00:25:44,524 --> 00:25:49,224
class products and services with Bitcoin ethos in mind as far as decentralization, fault tolerance,

349
00:25:49,324 --> 00:25:54,624
redundancy, but also just build with like the future in mind because it's kind of like an

350
00:25:54,624 --> 00:25:59,024
interesting thought experiment. It's like nobody, we would think it's crazy if we told everyone,

351
00:25:59,164 --> 00:26:02,184
you're insane for not holding all your gold underneath your mattress or geographically

352
00:26:02,184 --> 00:26:06,224
segregated, but we feel okay to tell people, oh, you should just hold all your Bitcoin self-custody

353
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because that's the right way to do it.

354
00:26:07,924 --> 00:26:09,724
And gold and Bitcoin are fundamentally the same thing

355
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in that sense.

356
00:26:10,224 --> 00:26:10,964
You could take possession.

357
00:26:11,084 --> 00:26:12,624
Maybe it's a little bit easier to take possession

358
00:26:12,624 --> 00:26:13,264
of all your Bitcoin,

359
00:26:13,944 --> 00:26:15,984
but the concept of threat vector still exists

360
00:26:15,984 --> 00:26:17,624
that if somebody knows where you're at

361
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and he knows you have access to all this money,

362
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there's a reason why you have controls.

363
00:26:21,804 --> 00:26:25,664
And so I actually enjoy this concept or this topic

364
00:26:25,664 --> 00:26:28,544
because the most educated and like friends of mine

365
00:26:28,544 --> 00:26:29,824
think we're all nuts, right?

366
00:26:29,844 --> 00:26:31,864
Because we're like, wait, there's a different way.

367
00:26:32,644 --> 00:26:35,064
And I just don't like being in consensus.

368
00:26:35,064 --> 00:26:37,004
Like it's not that I try to be outside of consensus.

369
00:26:37,004 --> 00:26:38,584
It's just like, that's just already,

370
00:26:38,724 --> 00:26:40,624
the consensus means that the market has already decided,

371
00:26:40,624 --> 00:26:44,044
like we're there and then we all agree on it.

372
00:26:44,104 --> 00:26:45,344
And I feel like there's everyone agrees

373
00:26:45,344 --> 00:26:46,844
that self-custody is the thing

374
00:26:46,844 --> 00:26:49,384
or we're going to trust a third party custodian.

375
00:26:49,964 --> 00:26:51,284
And I don't think that's right.

376
00:26:51,524 --> 00:26:53,504
An example of this is like proof of reserves.

377
00:26:54,004 --> 00:26:55,444
Like nobody ever gets to articulate

378
00:26:55,444 --> 00:26:56,864
how proof of reserves is,

379
00:26:57,024 --> 00:26:58,324
it's kind of like a fallacy

380
00:26:58,324 --> 00:27:00,724
because proof of reserves,

381
00:27:00,924 --> 00:27:02,364
sure, I can do proof of reserves today,

382
00:27:02,364 --> 00:27:04,024
but tomorrow if all the assets were stolen

383
00:27:04,024 --> 00:27:06,764
because my internal team colluded or somebody hacked me.

384
00:27:06,844 --> 00:27:08,664
Well, what was the point in proof of reserves?

385
00:27:08,904 --> 00:27:11,884
Like inherent to multi-institution custody is proof of reserves.

386
00:27:12,264 --> 00:27:13,784
And something we don't even talk about yet

387
00:27:13,784 --> 00:27:16,824
is you can actually attest and have provenance

388
00:27:16,824 --> 00:27:19,564
around that single address by three independent institutions

389
00:27:19,564 --> 00:27:21,204
or five if we do a 305,

390
00:27:21,964 --> 00:27:24,424
that that address is actually underlying,

391
00:27:24,804 --> 00:27:27,644
belongs to that person by different institutions that did it

392
00:27:27,644 --> 00:27:29,004
because they've already onboarded them.

393
00:27:30,044 --> 00:27:32,684
And so these are just concepts that were just a little bit early,

394
00:27:32,684 --> 00:27:38,024
But as the price rises, it's natural that people will look out for the best solution because it's their money.

395
00:27:39,264 --> 00:27:43,644
So from memory, you had three institutions.

396
00:27:43,824 --> 00:27:44,924
Has that changed now?

397
00:27:44,984 --> 00:27:45,684
Have you got more?

398
00:27:46,924 --> 00:27:47,144
Yeah.

399
00:27:47,324 --> 00:27:49,504
So we have four live today.

400
00:27:49,924 --> 00:27:51,304
So it's OnRent, BitGo.

401
00:27:52,084 --> 00:27:55,004
BitGo, it's sadly like they're one of the best custodians in the world.

402
00:27:55,104 --> 00:27:57,764
They have over $100 billion in assets under management.

403
00:27:57,984 --> 00:28:00,484
They're going to IPO, but a lot of the Bitcoiners don't know.

404
00:28:00,484 --> 00:28:05,184
So they're really great at what they do, but also from a Bitcoin perspective, people know.

405
00:28:05,764 --> 00:28:10,924
CoinCover based in the UK, and then Tetra Trust, which is a Canadian qualified custodian.

406
00:28:12,144 --> 00:28:23,524
So that's important as well, because they're geographically dispersed, which is something, again, if people are looking at a multi-sig setup with the collaboration of OnRamp,

407
00:28:23,524 --> 00:28:29,744
that the first one of the first questions are going to be, well, you know, a 6102 attack and

408
00:28:29,744 --> 00:28:36,884
all of a sudden all exchanges in the US are told no more withdrawals under any circumstances.

409
00:28:37,744 --> 00:28:43,604
So that wouldn't matter if you're in an on-ramp situation because you've got the other two or

410
00:28:43,604 --> 00:28:49,404
three now outside of the US that are able to sign those transactions and get your Bitcoin to you.

411
00:28:50,684 --> 00:28:51,864
Yeah, that's exactly right.

412
00:28:51,864 --> 00:28:55,384
There's some other things that if that ever happened, they're going to go for single exchanges

413
00:28:55,384 --> 00:28:56,924
first because it's the easiest.

414
00:28:57,284 --> 00:29:01,164
There's a lot of building in Bitcoin where you want to, and I learned this at Unchained,

415
00:29:01,244 --> 00:29:05,484
whenever you build a product in a space, you want to take yourself out of the place to

416
00:29:05,484 --> 00:29:07,644
rug the client or be rugged, right?

417
00:29:07,704 --> 00:29:11,124
So being as a single custodian, I could never go to sleep if I had all of my client's assets

418
00:29:11,124 --> 00:29:14,964
because if my team colluded or if the government came to me, I could group.

419
00:29:15,124 --> 00:29:20,644
So that notion underpins a lot of what we do in the sense that if something like what

420
00:29:20,644 --> 00:29:23,984
you described happened, there's going to be a lot of smoke around people, which are all their assets,

421
00:29:24,464 --> 00:29:30,424
but there's also the thought of, or the logic of violence kind of changes because it's like, well,

422
00:29:30,964 --> 00:29:35,684
it's also not an omnibus wallet. That's something that people forget that in traditional custodial

423
00:29:35,684 --> 00:29:41,584
models, whether it's Coinbase, Unchain, I'm not sorry, Coinbase, Fidelity, I don't know if River,

424
00:29:41,584 --> 00:29:45,144
I think River's also more than likely, yeah, they do because they put it on chain,

425
00:29:45,544 --> 00:29:49,124
is it's an omnibus wallet. So if there's ever anything that happens to it, whether it's

426
00:29:49,124 --> 00:29:54,884
collusion, hacking, or government, it's a very easy target to go. And it's similar to corporate

427
00:29:54,884 --> 00:29:59,704
treasuries versus the way we do it is every wallet is on chain requires its own multiple

428
00:29:59,704 --> 00:30:05,964
key ceremony by multiple institutions. So it's a little bit different. We have a Latin American

429
00:30:05,964 --> 00:30:11,764
key coming online, Middle Eastern key coming online, another US big firm coming online.

430
00:30:12,484 --> 00:30:17,024
And then we're actually going to be doing lending with another firm. And there's like four or five

431
00:30:17,024 --> 00:30:20,904
other things like coming that are public there's been a lot of stuff working in the background but

432
00:30:20,904 --> 00:30:28,044
uh yeah it's been it's been a very fun ride so if somebody listening is now interested because they

433
00:30:28,044 --> 00:30:36,644
they do want to protect their stack a little you know more securely than they have they are not

434
00:30:36,644 --> 00:30:41,984
comfortable with buying three separate different wallets setting up the multi-sig dispersing them

435
00:30:41,984 --> 00:30:46,984
among friends or family or whatever and they're thinking well yeah on ramp i've probably got a

436
00:30:46,984 --> 00:30:51,864
half decent service here, it's definitely worth them checking out. What would be the, like the

437
00:30:51,864 --> 00:30:58,464
fees, what would be the walkthrough process? Yeah. So I think one key thing is it's not all

438
00:30:58,464 --> 00:31:04,304
or nothing. Like everyone has their own risk profile and threat vector. And so some folks

439
00:31:04,304 --> 00:31:09,064
that are worried about their family recovering and all of that, they put a large percentage there

440
00:31:09,064 --> 00:31:13,904
and others may be not afraid of that, but are just afraid of whatever reason they just want

441
00:31:13,904 --> 00:31:18,124
access to that. Then they split between, you know, self-custody and third party. We all agree

442
00:31:18,124 --> 00:31:23,984
self-custody is what makes the whole system work. And then you can oscillate too, based on what

443
00:31:23,984 --> 00:31:27,624
you're concerned with. The onboarding experience is something to take a lot of pride in is from

444
00:31:27,624 --> 00:31:32,504
our engineering and product team. Historically, when you onboard to any of these, you know,

445
00:31:33,144 --> 00:31:38,044
multisig in itself is a really industrial style product. This is why collaborative custody took

446
00:31:38,044 --> 00:31:43,644
off because for somebody to really build their own multisig wallet, not only to create, you know,

447
00:31:43,644 --> 00:31:48,164
have three different Xpubs, three different private keys, geographically segregate all that,

448
00:31:48,264 --> 00:31:52,384
think about recovery, and then make sure they're all backed up via the right wallet configs and

449
00:31:52,384 --> 00:31:58,804
wallets is not easy and not to mess it up. So that's where collaborative custody comes in.

450
00:31:59,144 --> 00:32:05,564
But where collaborative custody kind of falls is you still push all the burden to the individual.

451
00:32:05,924 --> 00:32:10,504
So they have to, like, if they lose it, they're out of the game. But it's also inherently full

452
00:32:10,504 --> 00:32:13,624
of a bunch of friction because you have to ship the device. You have to go through onboarding,

453
00:32:13,644 --> 00:32:15,264
And you have to make sure the person is familiar with that.

454
00:32:15,324 --> 00:32:17,484
So it used to take us two to eight weeks to onboard people.

455
00:32:17,564 --> 00:32:19,484
And then a lot of people left their assets on BlockFi.

456
00:32:20,144 --> 00:32:24,924
Because once you get onboarded, you still have to inherently understand what you're doing.

457
00:32:24,924 --> 00:32:27,784
Because the reason why you're using that is to have no single point of failure.

458
00:32:27,964 --> 00:32:31,844
So if you're relying on the third party partner and they go away, well, what was the point?

459
00:32:31,904 --> 00:32:34,464
You might as well just trust the Coinbase or whatever, because if you messed it up.

460
00:32:35,224 --> 00:32:37,444
So we onboarded two to eight minutes.

461
00:32:37,444 --> 00:32:40,864
If you're in the US, if you're outside, it takes a little bit of KY.

462
00:32:40,864 --> 00:32:44,864
like, um, we, as they go through manual or review, but we're actually going to streamline that. So

463
00:32:44,864 --> 00:32:53,544
in about four to eight weeks, U S or international meal, the onboard in a few minutes. Um, and, um,

464
00:32:53,544 --> 00:32:58,564
we started like 1800 bucks a year. So if you just have under 500 K and then it kind of scales up

465
00:32:58,564 --> 00:33:02,944
depending on like amount of white glove treatment you need, the, one of the big things people use

466
00:33:02,944 --> 00:33:09,164
this for is inheritance, because that's been the hardest thing, um, is just the notion of

467
00:33:09,164 --> 00:33:14,124
like us as individuals, when we adopted Bitcoin, we were much younger, right? And as we get older,

468
00:33:14,324 --> 00:33:18,464
like life just gets a lot more serious. Our kids grow up and they need to naturally be able to

469
00:33:18,464 --> 00:33:22,304
inherit something if something happens to us. And then it's just unfortunate, but we've seen

470
00:33:22,304 --> 00:33:26,644
increasingly post COVID, a lot of people, it feels like have been, you know, passing or getting sick.

471
00:33:27,304 --> 00:33:31,544
And so as that happens, it's kind of like directly correlated to Bitcoin's price rising,

472
00:33:31,544 --> 00:33:36,364
right? Like as Bitcoin's price with time goes, we all also see mortality. And so a lot of

473
00:33:36,364 --> 00:33:40,684
individuals just feel that and inherit in our solution, there's no extra cost. They just come

474
00:33:40,684 --> 00:33:46,064
in and they set up what's called termination on death certificates. And that effectively helps

475
00:33:46,064 --> 00:33:50,724
bypass probate. So we can set up trust and do all that. That's easy. But if a lot of people just

476
00:33:50,724 --> 00:33:53,964
don't do it because we're young and think we're going to live forever, so they can just naturally

477
00:33:53,964 --> 00:33:58,644
put that in. And so God forbid something happens, their family would be able to show up and they

478
00:33:58,644 --> 00:34:02,524
could have the right death certificate and go through the procedures. And then each of the key

479
00:34:02,524 --> 00:34:08,304
holders would authenticate and then sign to move the assets yeah i remember that being a very slick

480
00:34:08,304 --> 00:34:16,744
process like it didn't take much time at all uh you know to to set up the um the descendants uh the

481
00:34:16,744 --> 00:34:25,124
the uh am i right like yeah yeah and what you're keying in on is something that like i think

482
00:34:25,124 --> 00:34:31,124
probably will be a key theme of stuff we talk about in the the corporate treasury stuff is that

483
00:34:31,124 --> 00:34:37,044
like the reason where the the computer was so profound or interesting and like why jobs they've

484
00:34:37,044 --> 00:34:41,304
been just going down this rabbit hole of of you know him and what he's what he's done i don't know

485
00:34:41,304 --> 00:34:46,724
why he's always previously looking at henry ford um but where he really found profound was that you

486
00:34:46,724 --> 00:34:52,544
can take like it was he was looking at these different errors and the eras and the way that

487
00:34:52,544 --> 00:34:58,584
they transition in and um how he saw computers giving like the power to a man of like a hundred

488
00:34:58,584 --> 00:35:03,684
plus men from a productivity perspective, but it was very cumbersome and clunky.

489
00:35:03,684 --> 00:35:15,715
And the idea in his head and what he tried to push through his products was ultimately the ease but accessibility and what it meant for the individual the empowerment it gave And we know this is what

490
00:35:15,715 --> 00:35:20,896
Bitcoin, the individual, like I want to change our company slogan to be like, allows your

491
00:35:20,896 --> 00:35:24,735
journeys to come true, but we can like, team won't let me do it. And we're not ready. But that's what

492
00:35:24,735 --> 00:35:28,795
I really think of like what Bitcoin does is it gives people the time to take a step back, right?

493
00:35:28,795 --> 00:35:32,135
To get off the rat race and ultimately express their view of what they should be doing in the

494
00:35:32,135 --> 00:35:37,755
world. The problem is that it's been inherently so hard to get material exposure because of

495
00:35:37,755 --> 00:35:40,735
everything we're talking about here, only the hardcore people understand what we're talking

496
00:35:40,735 --> 00:35:46,555
about. It's very hard to discern all of this. And there hasn't been an easy way to click a button

497
00:35:46,555 --> 00:35:53,155
and park material wealth or start and then put more and more with no friction to your point

498
00:35:53,155 --> 00:35:57,615
when it comes to inheritance, like a Fidelity or Coinbase account. This is why corporate treasuries,

499
00:35:57,615 --> 00:36:03,396
ETFs have been the fastest growing products in the space is because they feel very similar to

500
00:36:03,396 --> 00:36:08,035
the existing market. And until we get there, we're always going to be in this like weird niche where

501
00:36:08,035 --> 00:36:12,335
people are going to adopt inferior products and get rubbed. And so that's what I think has been

502
00:36:12,335 --> 00:36:18,795
essential to this process. And we've been growing like crazy. Most people still don't know who we

503
00:36:18,795 --> 00:36:21,975
are, but we're going to kind of change that. We have a lot of things in the plans from like a

504
00:36:21,975 --> 00:36:28,075
public kind of digital aspect. All right. Very cool. So Bitcoin treasury companies,

505
00:36:28,235 --> 00:36:35,835
it's the big, we've almost shifted away from core versus knots now that that seems to have

506
00:36:35,835 --> 00:36:41,916
settled down a little bit. But that was a really interesting part of Bitcoin's history as well.

507
00:36:41,956 --> 00:36:47,255
And it will flare up again, I am sure. Bitcoin treasury companies have definitely taken

508
00:36:47,255 --> 00:36:54,936
the headlines over the last month. What's your stance on them? How do you define a Bitcoin

509
00:36:54,936 --> 00:36:59,995
treasury company? Where do you think the nuance is being completely missed?

510
00:37:02,696 --> 00:37:04,995
Have you heard any of my takes on this? Not really.

511
00:37:05,696 --> 00:37:05,936
No.

512
00:37:06,515 --> 00:37:10,775
I've been talking a lot about it, so I just didn't know. I mean, would it be okay if I'm

513
00:37:10,775 --> 00:37:11,876
curious your thoughts?

514
00:37:12,175 --> 00:37:17,235
Yeah. So I think there's a scale. Obviously, there's a scale to everything. And you have

515
00:37:17,235 --> 00:37:31,335
What I'm passionate about is mom and pop stores, small to medium-sized enterprises, your local pub, your local cafe, your butcher, your baker, your candlestick maker, the people that you are interacting with each and every day, family businesses.

516
00:37:31,635 --> 00:37:43,436
It's so freaking important for them to start getting Bitcoin on their balance sheet, whether they are selling their goods and services for Bitcoin or using capital each month.

517
00:37:43,436 --> 00:37:49,495
that they put some profits that they can take out of the business into the business,

518
00:37:49,835 --> 00:37:55,255
just so they can stay alive and be around in the next 5 to 10 to 20 years' time,

519
00:37:55,696 --> 00:37:59,555
and then pass that business down through generations like we used to have.

520
00:37:59,555 --> 00:38:06,436
But Bitcoin would be able to apply that in real life.

521
00:38:07,035 --> 00:38:12,896
And at the other end of the scale, you have people that are spitting up companies

522
00:38:12,896 --> 00:38:19,575
out of nowhere that are offering no goods or services and never have done and are just

523
00:38:19,575 --> 00:38:23,475
raising cash to buy as much Bitcoin as they possibly can.

524
00:38:24,396 --> 00:38:26,335
And that doesn't make much sense to me at all.

525
00:38:27,155 --> 00:38:33,356
And we're getting all of these new metrics being thrown around like MNAV and people are

526
00:38:33,356 --> 00:38:34,575
losing their minds.

527
00:38:35,315 --> 00:38:40,755
And it's like I came for the Austrian economics and stuck around to day trade MNAV.

528
00:38:40,755 --> 00:38:46,896
And people are losing sight of what we're here to do in my estimation.

529
00:38:47,436 --> 00:38:48,696
And then there's everything else in between.

530
00:38:49,675 --> 00:38:57,696
So as a Bitcoiner, as someone who is invested in Bitcoin and looking to invest in Bitcoin.

531
00:38:59,735 --> 00:39:02,356
So what's happened here in the UK, which has been very concerning.

532
00:39:02,815 --> 00:39:06,255
A lot of people here in the UK have pent up cash.

533
00:39:06,255 --> 00:39:12,835
Cash they cannot access until they, and they're about to change the rules until they're like 58, 68.

534
00:39:13,155 --> 00:39:13,755
I can't remember.

535
00:39:15,035 --> 00:39:17,315
Whatever it is, it's years away for most people.

536
00:39:17,735 --> 00:39:22,356
But that cash is there and they can't use it and they can't allocate it to Bitcoin.

537
00:39:22,595 --> 00:39:27,995
So what they've been doing is allocating it to Bitcoin mining companies or MicroStrategy, for example.

538
00:39:27,995 --> 00:39:37,235
That's why a lot of Brits hold MicroStrategy stock, because they can pull up their pension provider and say, please invest into MicroStrategy.

539
00:39:37,515 --> 00:39:38,595
And it's done very well for them.

540
00:39:39,235 --> 00:39:45,715
But now these new companies are coming online saying we're going to stack Bitcoin onto the balance sheet.

541
00:39:46,615 --> 00:39:51,175
There's a couple of them here in the UK, and they've gone mad and they've gone absolutely bananas.

542
00:39:51,175 --> 00:39:52,936
and then they've just fallen out of bed again.

543
00:39:53,675 --> 00:39:58,575
Because I don't think it's being done properly

544
00:39:58,575 --> 00:40:01,135
and I don't think it's being done with the right intent.

545
00:40:01,416 --> 00:40:02,275
But I can't tell.

546
00:40:03,135 --> 00:40:04,595
I just get in the spidey senses.

547
00:40:05,535 --> 00:40:08,635
So that's very interesting,

548
00:40:08,635 --> 00:40:12,775
especially when you've got people like David Bailey,

549
00:40:13,055 --> 00:40:15,755
who has his UTXO fund management,

550
00:40:15,755 --> 00:40:21,575
looking at spinning up Bitcoin treasury companies,

551
00:40:22,015 --> 00:40:24,135
or for want of a better word,

552
00:40:24,655 --> 00:40:28,476
rescuing zombie companies in capital markets

553
00:40:28,476 --> 00:40:30,856
in every country that he could think of.

554
00:40:31,615 --> 00:40:34,335
It sounds like a total pump and dump to me.

555
00:40:34,715 --> 00:40:35,476
And if you're pumping

556
00:40:35,476 --> 00:40:39,356
and then dumping on unsuspecting retail,

557
00:40:39,735 --> 00:40:40,396
that's one thing.

558
00:40:40,495 --> 00:40:41,775
But if you're pumping and then dumping

559
00:40:41,775 --> 00:40:43,695
into people's retirement accounts,

560
00:40:43,695 --> 00:40:51,436
that's a whole nother level of mental gymnastics you're going to have to you know live with for

561
00:40:51,436 --> 00:40:57,535
the rest of your life so there's something very strange going on here it feels very ICO days

562
00:40:57,535 --> 00:41:03,956
and it's concerning but back to what I said at the beginning please if you're small to medium

563
00:41:03,956 --> 00:41:09,356
size enterprise business if you're a mom-and-pop store don't be put off stacking bitcoin into your

564
00:41:09,356 --> 00:41:15,295
balance sheet that's definitely something that you should be looking at yeah i uh i think it's

565
00:41:15,295 --> 00:41:23,135
really well said i think i think that's directionally what's happening um that my thoughts

566
00:41:23,135 --> 00:41:29,295
kind of mirror in the sense of generally everything's good or everything is good this is kind of the

567
00:41:29,295 --> 00:41:33,715
nuance what's happening here is everything's good for bitcoin and ultimately what you just

568
00:41:33,715 --> 00:41:40,876
described if it puts Bitcoin to a million dollars and then it crashes, well, it's at a different

569
00:41:40,876 --> 00:41:46,356
scale, but that awareness is going to drive more adoption to Bitcoin if we would have got to 250.

570
00:41:46,515 --> 00:41:49,876
So that's the sad part, right? Like that everything's good, even though it's not good

571
00:41:49,876 --> 00:41:55,175
for the Bitcoin or the holder. Now, what you said about businesses resonates very deeply with me.

572
00:41:55,255 --> 00:41:58,575
One of our portfolio companies, Acropolis, is exactly this. It's like business treasury,

573
00:41:58,575 --> 00:42:03,255
because from SMBs all the way to corporates, they naturally need, there's a bunch of things from buy,

574
00:42:03,255 --> 00:42:07,255
sell to governance, to consensus with the organization, to how do you manage volatility?

575
00:42:07,255 --> 00:42:12,735
How do you lend against it? And I had a very similar, I grew up in the area that's been

576
00:42:12,735 --> 00:42:17,195
flooded right now in Texas. And I have some property out there and I was at a small taco shop

577
00:42:17,195 --> 00:42:23,615
and it was during COVID and all of the market prices for the tacos, like the tacos were

578
00:42:23,615 --> 00:42:27,535
generally just like static, right? It's tacos, like how does it change? It's not like beef where

579
00:42:27,535 --> 00:42:32,115
you go to barbecue and then like the beef is always, or now we've always moving. And they had

580
00:42:32,115 --> 00:42:37,295
bunch of tape on the prices and it was because they had to change the thing and it hit me it's

581
00:42:37,295 --> 00:42:41,155
like these people i care about them they need bitcoin because the only way they're going to

582
00:42:41,155 --> 00:42:45,416
survive is if they hold a better form of money but then also how they'll thrive because they'll buy

583
00:42:45,416 --> 00:42:50,235
out the taco shop across the street that is not you know they're just going to be able to out

584
00:42:50,235 --> 00:42:53,856
compete them and so it's underpinned a lot of the stuff that we're doing and also kind of what

585
00:42:53,856 --> 00:43:01,356
you're driving at is you just need it to exist um so that's the the natural part now around the

586
00:43:01,356 --> 00:43:07,075
corporate treasury i think why we're probably both and like there's a sentiment around it

587
00:43:07,075 --> 00:43:11,595
is we probably you tell me if i'm if i'm wrong or if i'm missing something is

588
00:43:11,595 --> 00:43:17,976
we probably expected it off of wall street but we didn't so we expected that because that's just

589
00:43:17,976 --> 00:43:24,335
natural but we didn't expect the individuals because what's embedded in this trade is what

590
00:43:24,335 --> 00:43:29,535
you're saying is most people because if they are if they aren't if we're wrong then show us your

591
00:43:29,535 --> 00:43:32,876
book, show us your Bitcoin, you convert it into the shares and show us how you're going to lock

592
00:43:32,876 --> 00:43:37,876
them up for 10 years. Because if not, then what you're saying is, right, is that you get in early,

593
00:43:38,275 --> 00:43:44,555
you're going to effectively dump on others. And we didn't expect that from the people that were

594
00:43:44,555 --> 00:43:47,856
trying to educate Bitcoin. I understand why they're doing it, because at the end of the day,

595
00:43:47,856 --> 00:43:52,075
there's been very little money to be made in this space as an educator, and people have done a lot

596
00:43:52,075 --> 00:43:58,115
of work. And so it's sad. But at the same time, to take that, it's almost like affinity scamming

597
00:43:58,115 --> 00:44:05,655
on your reputation to take to these companies, they should know better. And it ties into the

598
00:44:05,655 --> 00:44:09,735
people like us, even that are paying attention. I remember I was at the block. I didn't touch on

599
00:44:09,735 --> 00:44:13,315
this, but back in like 2019, at a very small time, it's how I met like Matt O'Dell and Parker. I was

600
00:44:13,315 --> 00:44:17,115
like at the block for a very quick stint. And I could have, I remember they were talking about

601
00:44:17,115 --> 00:44:21,035
Solana and all these tokens and could have bought them at 80 cents and 50 cents. Cause they had,

602
00:44:21,095 --> 00:44:24,376
you can see pattern recognition. They're like tech companies. You can see the vibes, right? You can

603
00:44:24,376 --> 00:44:28,436
see the teams behind them and you can make some money. But back in the day, and we had to do this

604
00:44:28,436 --> 00:44:32,436
thought experiment specifically with Parker. It's like, there's a lot of mental gymnastics you have

605
00:44:32,436 --> 00:44:36,635
to do when you're going to trade. There's not only, I'm not going to go in any specific order,

606
00:44:36,735 --> 00:44:40,115
but there's not only taxes you have to do. You have to be outside of the market. You have to,

607
00:44:40,515 --> 00:44:43,856
it clouds mental headspace and what you're supposed to be doing because you have to get

608
00:44:43,856 --> 00:44:47,476
out of the trade. You have to be a good trader because nobody knows when to get out. If I was

609
00:44:47,476 --> 00:44:50,555
in MSTR, I would never know when to get out and it would just be sitting there.

610
00:44:50,555 --> 00:45:01,396
And so versus, so it's the same thing with these insiders that people that follow the space are seeing these new things, whether it's in Canada or UK or wherever, and they may make some money.

611
00:45:01,755 --> 00:45:15,235
And then this insidious part about this is you start to, and this is why I can never allocate to them. So I can always speak objectively to it is like, well, then you naturally, you have to make, you start to see this.

612
00:45:15,315 --> 00:45:20,356
You always know when people start posting on Twitter in positive lights, because, you know, they started to put their own portfolio into it.

613
00:45:20,356 --> 00:45:23,835
You have to start to rationalize why it makes sense.

614
00:45:26,175 --> 00:45:29,715
And the sad part, and this is the last thing I'll say about this

615
00:45:29,715 --> 00:45:30,856
because we were talking about it last week.

616
00:45:30,936 --> 00:45:33,495
We talk about it every week now at this point on the podcast we do is

617
00:45:33,495 --> 00:45:39,155
the Bitcoiners are fine in this.

618
00:45:39,396 --> 00:45:42,515
Because if you think about it, we all understand what money is

619
00:45:42,515 --> 00:45:46,095
and then we understand what speculative assets are, at least most of us.

620
00:45:46,335 --> 00:45:49,655
So we're all fine with if you have your stack and you take a little sliver off

621
00:45:49,655 --> 00:45:50,976
and you play a little penny stock,

622
00:45:51,095 --> 00:45:52,235
like no harm, whatever.

623
00:45:52,356 --> 00:45:53,055
You can go speculate.

624
00:45:53,575 --> 00:45:55,335
The problem is that we forgot

625
00:45:55,335 --> 00:45:57,055
what it's like to come into this space

626
00:45:57,055 --> 00:45:58,795
and get thrown into the wolves

627
00:45:58,795 --> 00:45:59,976
with all these different things.

628
00:46:00,135 --> 00:46:01,476
And this is like the biggest wolf trap

629
00:46:01,476 --> 00:46:02,335
because this isn't an ICO.

630
00:46:02,495 --> 00:46:04,896
This is like everyone knows they're 60-40

631
00:46:04,896 --> 00:46:05,856
and to be able to click a button

632
00:46:05,856 --> 00:46:07,956
to take a little bit of their equities

633
00:46:07,956 --> 00:46:09,295
because equities map perfectly

634
00:46:09,295 --> 00:46:10,255
to what they're doing

635
00:46:10,255 --> 00:46:10,795
because their equities

636
00:46:10,795 --> 00:46:11,635
with their holding Bitcoin.

637
00:46:12,175 --> 00:46:13,456
And to say, I get my Bitcoin exposure,

638
00:46:13,535 --> 00:46:14,495
we don't have to deal with the keys

639
00:46:14,495 --> 00:46:15,255
and all of that.

640
00:46:15,655 --> 00:46:16,775
And that they should know better

641
00:46:16,775 --> 00:46:18,235
because that's how the market's going to come in.

642
00:46:18,235 --> 00:46:24,315
So any way they're rationalizing it is effectively just hollowing out what Bitcoin actually is as money versus a speculative asset.

643
00:46:24,315 --> 00:46:33,655
And I think that's where we're both and some other folks that have been maybe not as loud about it are feeling why it's not in the best interest of the individual.

644
00:46:34,715 --> 00:46:40,595
Yeah, absolutely. And you've got big interest backing these things.

645
00:46:40,815 --> 00:46:47,755
Like in the case of 21 or XX1, whatever it's going to be listed as, you've got Cantor Fitzgerald behind that.

646
00:46:47,755 --> 00:46:50,055
Like this, this is Wall Street.

647
00:46:50,055 --> 00:46:52,396
This is the pinnacle of Wall Street. This is

648
00:46:52,447 --> 00:46:54,727
as pointy as it gets.

649
00:46:55,227 --> 00:46:57,427
Those guys, they know like this,

650
00:46:58,327 --> 00:47:00,047
they're not on your side.

651
00:47:00,127 --> 00:47:01,907
They are not your friends, these people.

652
00:47:02,807 --> 00:47:06,327
Like they are here to financially engineer something

653
00:47:06,327 --> 00:47:07,687
for themselves.

654
00:47:08,507 --> 00:47:10,967
That is the, and if you're gonna,

655
00:47:11,307 --> 00:47:13,187
you are going to be last to the trade.

656
00:47:13,847 --> 00:47:16,127
As like you said, you're gonna have to time it.

657
00:47:16,207 --> 00:47:17,227
You're gonna have to get in.

658
00:47:17,287 --> 00:47:20,367
You're gonna have to get out and lose some sleep

659
00:47:20,367 --> 00:47:28,247
and most likely lose some Bitcoin. And from the investment point of view, how much money now is

660
00:47:28,247 --> 00:47:34,267
getting sucked into this stuff that, as an Austrian economic person would look at it,

661
00:47:34,327 --> 00:47:40,107
like the opportunity cost on the other side, all of these companies that are now not getting this

662
00:47:40,107 --> 00:47:50,687
capital because this hype cycle is in complete froth territory already and we're only we're only

663
00:47:50,687 --> 00:47:56,647
what a few months in yeah that's what scares me the most is we're only a few months in um

664
00:47:56,647 --> 00:48:04,807
i will say there's a little nuance to this in two aspects uh one is maybe this was always the way it

665
00:48:04,807 --> 00:48:09,847
was going to go in the sense that you know there's a there was always something very poetic about

666
00:48:09,847 --> 00:48:13,387
everyone gets Bitcoin at the price they deserve because there was something around the Elizabeth

667
00:48:13,387 --> 00:48:18,907
Warrens were the last to get it rightfully so because they just had benefited from a fiat system

668
00:48:18,907 --> 00:48:23,087
and the boomers things like that but maybe it was a little naive in the sense that there were going

669
00:48:23,087 --> 00:48:28,127
to be large bag holders that were going to play the fiat system to get it but what I will say so

670
00:48:28,127 --> 00:48:35,667
like maybe this was always the way it was going to go and there is some nuance in that like

671
00:48:35,667 --> 00:48:41,367
there's a probable bet that I think a lot of these things de-lever because it's just nonsensical for

672
00:48:41,367 --> 00:48:44,947
corporates pensions because they hide under that corporates and pensions are adopting them. And

673
00:48:44,947 --> 00:48:49,047
they're like, sure, at the margins, they're doing strategy because of liquidity profile. But like,

674
00:48:49,727 --> 00:48:53,147
there's a reason why all these companies are creating communities, you know, create communities

675
00:48:53,147 --> 00:48:59,327
for pensions and institutions. But I can make a case that this becomes the standard for all

676
00:48:59,327 --> 00:49:03,607
companies, specifically public companies, because Bitcoin is going to be inserted into, you know,

677
00:49:03,607 --> 00:49:07,067
all markets and products to help to deleverage, right?

678
00:49:07,067 --> 00:49:07,887
We see this with bet bonds.

679
00:49:07,987 --> 00:49:11,987
We see this with, you know, corporate treasuries or like strategies in general.

680
00:49:11,987 --> 00:49:17,127
If you have a bunch of products and services and we're suffering via deflation AI, like

681
00:49:17,127 --> 00:49:19,587
you naturally need something to absorb that, to stay alive.

682
00:49:19,927 --> 00:49:23,407
So there's a case to be made that it'll just be soonly like understood.

683
00:49:23,527 --> 00:49:26,427
You get penalized if you're a public company that doesn't hold Bitcoin and then they'll

684
00:49:26,427 --> 00:49:28,207
have a premium because they have more.

685
00:49:28,207 --> 00:49:35,687
like i can see that play out um but there's two things to call out one is they'll still blow up

686
00:49:35,687 --> 00:49:38,867
because they're they're humans running the show and there's a lot of things happening under the

687
00:49:38,867 --> 00:49:42,427
scenes and that's why they don't under the under the covers of like where the custody sits because

688
00:49:42,427 --> 00:49:45,627
a lot of them aren't actually custody they're trying to make additional margin or additional

689
00:49:45,627 --> 00:49:52,607
they don't talk about it but where i benefit or where i can go to bed happy at night is um at the

690
00:49:52,607 --> 00:50:01,587
end of the day, it ends up in a fairer system, right? So like if the company or the individual

691
00:50:01,587 --> 00:50:05,347
across the world buys Bitcoin at a million dollars, a hundred thousand dollars or five

692
00:50:05,347 --> 00:50:09,307
million dollars, sure. Ideally they bought it lower and they could benefit. But the reality is

693
00:50:09,307 --> 00:50:13,347
they've done that if it wasn't at the price point, the liquidity profile and awareness.

694
00:50:14,627 --> 00:50:19,247
But it's a meritocratic system. You can't make more of it. And then the only way to get it from

695
00:50:19,247 --> 00:50:25,267
the individual is to deliver value. And so sure, the fiat setup could have let them have it in the

696
00:50:25,267 --> 00:50:29,647
same way you win a lottery ticket, but most people give the money back because they didn't actually

697
00:50:29,647 --> 00:50:36,547
make it. And so I just think as the natural order of things like gravity in the water flowing,

698
00:50:36,747 --> 00:50:41,447
this money will be delivered back to the market. Now, I don't know how, but I know they won't do,

699
00:50:42,387 --> 00:50:46,807
unless they're very good allocators, they won't do productive things with the underlying how

700
00:50:46,807 --> 00:50:52,147
they're proposing that they're going to do. And so it's just kind of, I've been just trying to

701
00:50:52,147 --> 00:50:55,347
work through this and it's just kind of like trying to work through life, right? Like there's

702
00:50:55,347 --> 00:51:04,227
just nuance and there's no black and white. Yeah. And then the last part of this, which people aren't

703
00:51:04,227 --> 00:51:08,627
because it's all fun and games at the moment, right? It's all about number go up and there's

704
00:51:08,627 --> 00:51:13,607
a new IPO coming soon and I've got to get on on this and there's a new company announcing that

705
00:51:13,607 --> 00:51:15,427
So I've got to get on in that one.

706
00:51:16,027 --> 00:51:22,967
I want to be part of the pipe deal, all of this kind of fiat jargon, which is sad to listen to.

707
00:51:23,487 --> 00:51:34,127
But what happens when in 18 months' time, 24 months' time, whatever it is, we have the rollover on the Bitcoin price?

708
00:51:34,647 --> 00:51:37,647
So the underlying asset all of a sudden starts tanking.

709
00:51:37,767 --> 00:51:40,547
Like we know it always does if you've been around long enough.

710
00:51:40,887 --> 00:51:43,507
And of course, this time it's different, bro.

711
00:51:43,607 --> 00:51:51,027
wall street's in and they had these guys that are holding this bitcoin on their um balance sheet

712
00:51:51,027 --> 00:51:57,567
as bitcoin treasury companies purely bitcoin treasury companies how do they manage that

713
00:51:57,567 --> 00:52:01,827
what are they going to do are they going to panic are they going to start fire selling into the

714
00:52:01,827 --> 00:52:07,027
market how's that going to affect all of the other businesses that hold in bitcoin on their balance

715
00:52:07,027 --> 00:52:12,367
sheet what's the what the headline's going to be coming across cnbc and squawk box there's going to

716
00:52:12,367 --> 00:52:17,887
be blood on the street, and it's all going to become one big mess. And it could really

717
00:52:17,887 --> 00:52:28,347
fully affect not just now the Bitcoin price, but the bosses across the world as well,

718
00:52:28,507 --> 00:52:35,667
because a lot of them are going to be hyped up on the back of a handful of companies

719
00:52:35,667 --> 00:52:39,947
that have been stacking all this Bitcoin, and now it's completely rolling over.

720
00:52:39,947 --> 00:52:56,807
I mean, you literally just described why OnRamp was launched. I didn't really want to launch OnRamp. I kept looking at this problem of self-custody or third-party custody, and I saw everything blow up in 22. I had a firsthand seat of all of it and was like, well, we're just going to redo this.

721
00:52:56,807 --> 00:53:05,827
Like I, in my opinion, I know you like to get a little conspiratorial, so I'll just do it a little bit on the side is that was kind of the dry run for what you're describing.

722
00:53:06,247 --> 00:53:18,207
And there's actually historical precedent from the tulip bubble to the Great Depression to FTX that this is just a capital reallocation and it's a way to move money.

723
00:53:18,207 --> 00:53:23,387
and so you naturally have the hype cycle it comes into centralized entities it happens to all go away

724
00:53:23,387 --> 00:53:28,107
and you quote animal spirits and everyone chalks it up and there's a bunch of people that end up

725
00:53:28,107 --> 00:53:33,087
and what really has helped me go down this path it's just random nothing's random so it wasn't

726
00:53:33,087 --> 00:53:39,927
randomly but i watched uh have you ever seen cinderella man no fantastic flick i think you

727
00:53:39,927 --> 00:53:45,327
and lord love it um it's basically about a boxer that had won everything and then the great

728
00:53:45,327 --> 00:53:49,047
depression happened he put all of his money this is back in the 20s all his money into the stock

729
00:53:49,047 --> 00:53:55,327
market and um they lost everything and it's just like sad because it's a it's a it's a movie about

730
00:53:55,327 --> 00:53:58,947
the guy's redemption and coming back and he's cinderella man because he's the man of the people

731
00:53:58,947 --> 00:54:05,047
that he gets his way back but um it really gives you a firsthand experience it's a very humble

732
00:54:05,047 --> 00:54:11,107
uh humble movie because you start to realize like the value of money the value of counterparty risk

733
00:54:11,107 --> 00:54:13,587
and I started looking back into the Great Depression

734
00:54:13,587 --> 00:54:15,167
and it's actually astonishing

735
00:54:15,167 --> 00:54:18,007
where they talk about buy now, pay later

736
00:54:18,007 --> 00:54:20,407
and a lot of these things on ships

737
00:54:20,407 --> 00:54:21,687
where you'd be able to trade

738
00:54:21,687 --> 00:54:23,947
it's very similar to a mobile phone when you're on vacation

739
00:54:23,947 --> 00:54:24,887
because when you're on a ship

740
00:54:24,887 --> 00:54:26,687
all these people would turn into traders

741
00:54:26,687 --> 00:54:28,087
everyone turned into a trader

742
00:54:28,087 --> 00:54:29,607
it's very similar to the Weimar stuff

743
00:54:29,607 --> 00:54:33,947
and I think what ultimately is happening here

744
00:54:33,947 --> 00:54:35,067
what people are going to recognize

745
00:54:35,067 --> 00:54:37,527
is that Bitcoin is money

746
00:54:37,527 --> 00:54:40,007
and all these other things are securities

747
00:54:40,007 --> 00:54:42,587
and they're not money.

748
00:54:42,687 --> 00:54:43,467
They're not stores of value.

749
00:54:43,607 --> 00:54:45,147
They're not like Bitcoin isn't an investment.

750
00:54:45,347 --> 00:54:46,807
It's a way you preserve your capital.

751
00:54:47,147 --> 00:54:49,007
And that's the big reformation

752
00:54:49,007 --> 00:54:50,307
or renaissance that's happening.

753
00:54:50,687 --> 00:54:51,507
And that's the big,

754
00:54:51,567 --> 00:54:53,787
the dislocation that people are forgetting

755
00:54:53,787 --> 00:54:56,527
that like you can have these companies run.

756
00:54:56,787 --> 00:54:58,267
But if you wake up one day

757
00:54:58,267 --> 00:54:59,967
and the government seizes their Bitcoin

758
00:54:59,967 --> 00:55:02,487
or it's hacked and you just go to zero

759
00:55:02,487 --> 00:55:04,087
or the deleveraging

760
00:55:04,087 --> 00:55:05,687
and you just lose all of your wealth

761
00:55:05,687 --> 00:55:07,227
where conversely,

762
00:55:07,307 --> 00:55:08,227
you can just hold the money.

763
00:55:08,407 --> 00:55:09,747
Maybe you don't realize the game,

764
00:55:09,747 --> 00:55:11,227
but you also protect your wealth.

765
00:55:11,827 --> 00:55:13,547
And that's a big thing that I think a lot of people,

766
00:55:14,007 --> 00:55:15,887
you brought up, like there's reputation.

767
00:55:16,087 --> 00:55:17,567
A lot of the Bitcoiners are already wealthy.

768
00:55:17,687 --> 00:55:18,827
Like, what are you chasing?

769
00:55:19,027 --> 00:55:21,007
This kind of ties back to like biblical stuff

770
00:55:21,007 --> 00:55:21,867
and like false idols.

771
00:55:21,867 --> 00:55:23,907
Like you're just chasing like wealth

772
00:55:23,907 --> 00:55:25,587
that you don't even necessarily know

773
00:55:25,587 --> 00:55:28,247
why you're chasing it because you're already good.

774
00:55:28,387 --> 00:55:29,947
And if you sell your soul for more money,

775
00:55:30,067 --> 00:55:31,567
like what was the point?

776
00:55:32,207 --> 00:55:33,587
My lights just turned my auto lights.

777
00:55:33,827 --> 00:55:37,167
But yeah, I think it's just a big

778
00:55:37,167 --> 00:55:40,867
kind of reorganizing of society and like what value is.

779
00:55:41,087 --> 00:55:44,427
And I always love the gold and Bitcoin or money and everything else is credit.

780
00:55:44,627 --> 00:55:47,467
And it's just the rest of the market's not, like hasn't woken up to that.

781
00:55:48,707 --> 00:55:57,507
What's incredible to me is the people that are showing up now on this carousel.

782
00:55:57,747 --> 00:56:03,427
You've got Pomp throwing his hat in the ring and raising God knows how many tens or hundreds

783
00:56:03,427 --> 00:56:04,507
of millions of dollars.

784
00:56:04,507 --> 00:56:15,347
How many scams does that guy need to be involved in and promote before people just stop throwing money at him?

785
00:56:15,627 --> 00:56:16,667
It's incredible.

786
00:56:18,767 --> 00:56:18,907
Yeah.

787
00:56:20,667 --> 00:56:31,467
It's just hard because I've seen a couple of these firms and they all leverage that they're going to be different by offering financial services and they're going to be doing other things.

788
00:56:31,467 --> 00:56:42,187
So like inherently in buying Bitcoin, in leveraging, because a lot of this comes down to the marketability of the individual and the work that they've been putting in for five to 10 years.

789
00:56:42,187 --> 00:56:43,907
Because the guy's a hustler, right?

790
00:56:43,967 --> 00:56:44,787
He just like works.

791
00:56:45,307 --> 00:56:47,707
So he's able to leverage that in his connections to buy Bitcoin.

792
00:56:48,107 --> 00:56:49,207
He sees everybody else doing it.

793
00:56:50,007 --> 00:56:51,047
So it's an opportunity.

794
00:56:51,047 --> 00:56:55,347
So I just have a difficult time in figuring out like, do you blame them?

795
00:56:55,427 --> 00:56:56,507
Do you just explain it?

796
00:56:56,507 --> 00:57:03,187
do you go and do what like I think some people are going to rationalize is like there is a version

797
00:57:03,187 --> 00:57:09,507
that this becomes the norm right and some go away and blow up but then the capital moves to other

798
00:57:09,507 --> 00:57:14,447
companies because the equity system has so much capital right that's stored in people's wealth

799
00:57:14,447 --> 00:57:18,407
and that they're going to look at these companies and it's almost like how you look at revenue

800
00:57:18,407 --> 00:57:23,387
and the multiple of revenue it's like revenue plus bitcoin is your multiple valuation and like

801
00:57:23,387 --> 00:57:28,967
we actually might be Luddites. I still haven't figured it out. Like I have to think about this

802
00:57:28,967 --> 00:57:32,427
because we're allocators. And then it feels simply just think about like, you know, you have to just

803
00:57:32,427 --> 00:57:38,667
rationalize it. And then there's, there's another component to this of you don't actually have to

804
00:57:38,667 --> 00:57:42,947
play the game though. Like no matter what, because I think about this with, we talk about it,

805
00:57:43,027 --> 00:57:48,107
we have a podcast that talks about like investing in a sound money and standard. And, and there's a

806
00:57:48,107 --> 00:57:53,267
notion, I'm sure you're familiar with like Uber and what Masa did with these companies,

807
00:57:53,327 --> 00:57:57,947
they call it the money cannon. So the way that they would position, if you want my investment

808
00:57:57,947 --> 00:58:02,067
Uber, you have to take it at these terms or take this amount of money because everyone's

809
00:58:02,067 --> 00:58:05,327
incentivized throughout the whole structure to just deploy more money so you can raise more money.

810
00:58:05,727 --> 00:58:09,347
And it's like, sure, Travis, if you don't take it at Uber, well, we're going to give it to Lyft.

811
00:58:10,647 --> 00:58:14,367
And people like to think that that's not a decision, but there is a decision

812
00:58:14,367 --> 00:58:17,187
because you don't have to play that game.

813
00:58:17,187 --> 00:58:34,093
Now there a game that Silicon Valley wants people to play and that you expected and maybe you got too far on that journey It why we been very careful with how we built OnRim but there a version where the beauty in life is designed around constraints So you can maybe not play the exact game

814
00:58:34,133 --> 00:58:38,013
but you can counter position and offer different services. Like when a company's big, how do you,

815
00:58:38,013 --> 00:58:41,353
how do you beat them? It's like, you get more of a spoke, you get more white glove,

816
00:58:41,413 --> 00:58:45,573
you do things that the CEO of a large company can't do. And then you start to find wedges in that.

817
00:58:45,573 --> 00:58:52,173
so i still again like there's a balance of do you play the game to get the capital to be able to

818
00:58:52,173 --> 00:58:56,973
influence your position because you can't do that unless you have the same capital markets or at

819
00:58:56,973 --> 00:59:02,133
least somewhat equivalent or do you just completely shift and the only way to win is to play a

820
00:59:02,133 --> 00:59:07,133
different game uh i don't think there's a right decision to be honest i think everyone's going to

821
00:59:07,133 --> 00:59:11,253
be personal based on like their bias and how they think about like company building

822
00:59:11,253 --> 00:59:20,693
yeah and um well there's no stopping it to your point earlier it's here uh maybe it was inevitable

823
00:59:20,693 --> 00:59:28,673
um but uh i think the warning to the listener is try not to get caught up in it there is definitely

824
00:59:28,673 --> 00:59:37,473
a hype cycle on this stuff and uh tread carefully stay humble stack sats self-custody multi-sig do

825
00:59:37,473 --> 00:59:42,853
whatever it is to keep yourself safe and your Bitcoin safe because there are certain people

826
00:59:42,853 --> 00:59:50,713
out there, these big companies, the ETFs, they want your Bitcoin and that they'll find clever

827
00:59:50,713 --> 00:59:59,513
ways in which to help relieve you of your Bitcoin. And I just don't want to see that happen.

828
01:00:00,713 --> 01:00:04,913
There's been already too many horror stories. We've been around long enough to know people that

829
01:00:04,913 --> 01:00:11,213
have lost their Bitcoin and in bad investment decisions or bad setups or just leaving it on

830
01:00:11,213 --> 01:00:16,733
exchanges or whatever. There's a bunch of different ways that you can do it. And, you know, selling

831
01:00:16,733 --> 01:00:23,813
out of Bitcoin to raise capital, to buy into one of these, that would be, that's a bad idea.

832
01:00:25,273 --> 01:00:33,373
And, you know, good luck to the small companies, the companies out there that are just looking to,

833
01:00:33,373 --> 01:00:34,693
and even the startups.

834
01:00:35,653 --> 01:00:37,913
There are certain startups out there in the Bitcoin space.

835
01:00:38,173 --> 01:00:39,573
They raise a little bit of funding

836
01:00:39,573 --> 01:00:41,173
and rather than just go out there

837
01:00:41,173 --> 01:00:44,133
and buy the best marketing and dev team they can buy,

838
01:00:44,693 --> 01:00:46,793
they will put a certain amount of it into Bitcoin

839
01:00:46,793 --> 01:00:48,773
because they know that's going to lengthen their runway.

840
01:00:49,013 --> 01:00:50,233
And that is a prudent thing to do.

841
01:00:50,433 --> 01:00:52,293
Does that make them a Bitcoin treasury company?

842
01:00:52,633 --> 01:00:53,573
Not in my eyes.

843
01:00:54,113 --> 01:00:55,573
That just seems...

844
01:00:56,233 --> 01:00:58,793
Yeah, what is the definition of a Bitcoin treasury company?

845
01:00:59,573 --> 01:01:00,293
So here's a good question.

846
01:01:00,353 --> 01:01:01,073
Here's a good question.

847
01:01:01,073 --> 01:01:04,093
You know, it's great you brought that up because here's the nuance.

848
01:01:04,333 --> 01:01:08,993
So I'm sure you have an affinity to the startup that's trying to deliver value and build the best product.

849
01:01:09,613 --> 01:01:10,873
Well, what happens?

850
01:01:11,873 --> 01:01:14,193
And this is a completely unbiased question, just thought experiment.

851
01:01:14,193 --> 01:01:24,153
What happens when they say, oh, there's market demand, go reverse public via merger or whatever, and you can raise more capital to accelerate your business without dilution?

852
01:01:25,073 --> 01:01:26,133
Are they a scammer?

853
01:01:31,073 --> 01:01:32,713
You see, like, that's what I think.

854
01:01:32,773 --> 01:01:36,393
I don't think Pomp is going into it, like, trying to scam people, per se.

855
01:01:36,533 --> 01:01:38,713
I don't think a lot of people are trying to go into it or scam people.

856
01:01:38,833 --> 01:01:40,933
I think you're going for an opportunity.

857
01:01:42,153 --> 01:01:48,333
Now, I do think there's people you've referenced at PBR going in directly as a scam, and they see this, and they see ICOs.

858
01:01:49,333 --> 01:01:54,413
But also, those people have generally already blown themselves up in crypto once, and so it'll probably happen again.

859
01:01:54,653 --> 01:01:55,753
I liken all this to the lottery.

860
01:01:55,753 --> 01:01:58,673
It's like nobody ever keeps the money at the lottery because it wasn't their money.

861
01:01:58,773 --> 01:01:59,433
They just got lucky.

862
01:01:59,433 --> 01:02:03,153
And it's the same thing with the people that make the wealth and you take it away, they'll remake it.

863
01:02:03,393 --> 01:02:04,633
They're actually not that concerned.

864
01:02:04,953 --> 01:02:08,433
It sucks, but you'll make the money back if you know how to deliver value to the world.

865
01:02:09,813 --> 01:02:23,353
I think the core thing that we probably both agree on is important to call out is this is a testament to how murky the fiat system has gotten, that financialization, that people forgot how to actually deliver real value to the world.

866
01:02:23,353 --> 01:02:25,893
and especially Bitcoiners

867
01:02:25,893 --> 01:02:27,273
because like the reality is like,

868
01:02:27,613 --> 01:02:29,293
you know, if I was an influencer

869
01:02:29,293 --> 01:02:30,193
and it wasn't doing this,

870
01:02:30,273 --> 01:02:31,333
like I'd probably do the same thing.

871
01:02:31,393 --> 01:02:32,813
It's like free money that you look at,

872
01:02:33,013 --> 01:02:34,913
but it's because people forgot

873
01:02:34,913 --> 01:02:36,213
how to think like about

874
01:02:36,213 --> 01:02:37,393
how do you deliver value

875
01:02:37,393 --> 01:02:38,473
and create value

876
01:02:38,473 --> 01:02:39,613
and work to deliver the value

877
01:02:39,613 --> 01:02:40,993
that's not financial engineering.

878
01:02:41,993 --> 01:02:45,113
And then the other side of that is,

879
01:02:45,253 --> 01:02:46,913
and I can't help but liken it to COVID

880
01:02:46,913 --> 01:02:49,033
because COVID was such an insane proposition

881
01:02:49,033 --> 01:02:50,473
of like how they lock people away.

882
01:02:50,513 --> 01:02:51,193
You would never think

883
01:02:51,193 --> 01:02:52,453
that could have happened before COVID

884
01:02:52,453 --> 01:02:53,413
until it happened, right?

885
01:02:53,433 --> 01:02:54,493
We still probably don't believe that.

886
01:02:54,593 --> 01:02:55,413
It just seems weird.

887
01:02:56,373 --> 01:02:58,993
Is the very similar thing with counterparty risk

888
01:02:58,993 --> 01:03:02,173
because the gold bugs always understood this.

889
01:03:02,233 --> 01:03:03,973
They just didn't have the right time horizon

890
01:03:03,973 --> 01:03:05,413
is you want eyes on the gold.

891
01:03:05,513 --> 01:03:06,813
You want delivery on the gold

892
01:03:06,813 --> 01:03:09,973
because the paper gold was ultimately not going to be called

893
01:03:09,973 --> 01:03:11,533
and they live through understanding,

894
01:03:11,773 --> 01:03:14,933
you know, not only 6102s,

895
01:03:14,973 --> 01:03:17,153
but just like the notion of paper gold

896
01:03:17,153 --> 01:03:18,113
and counterparty risk.

897
01:03:18,113 --> 01:03:39,533
And so there's a reality that we're all just assuming that everything ends up okay in the traditional system because we've lived through, but everyone knows in Latin America countries or Lebanon or Cyprus and all these places that have just had bailings or all their capital taken, try to tell them, do you want a corporate treasury or do you want the underlying?

898
01:03:39,533 --> 01:03:41,973
And it's like 10 out of 10 times they want the underlying.

899
01:03:41,973 --> 01:04:06,853
So there's just also this notion of we're all just swimming in this water boiling that we think everything's okay until it's not. And you just wake up like that movie in Cinderella Man where all your life has been taken. It's like, is the risk really worth it? That all these different levels of risk that could happen where the assets lost and you end up with nothing. To your point, the retirements that can get wiped away. Like it's just, that's the thing that I think we've kind of all forgot.

900
01:04:06,853 --> 01:04:24,033
One of the counter arguments I've heard from people who are a lot closer to this than I am, and from people who I greatly respect, is when I ask the question, what economic good or service are they bringing to the marketplace?

901
01:04:24,033 --> 01:04:50,053
What value are they offering? And it's invariably the answer to that question is they're building a bridge between the fiat space to the Bitcoin space where all of this pent up demand, all of this money, this wedge of capital can now cross that bridge and enter into the new Bitcoin system, so to speak.

902
01:04:50,053 --> 01:04:55,173
and I can't really square that one away.

903
01:04:55,333 --> 01:04:58,193
I have to ask who's building the bridge?

904
01:04:58,493 --> 01:04:59,633
Who built that bridge?

905
01:05:00,533 --> 01:05:03,493
You've got to look at those individuals and those companies.

906
01:05:04,493 --> 01:05:06,133
Who did they build it for?

907
01:05:06,913 --> 01:05:09,133
Who's it really targeted at?

908
01:05:10,213 --> 01:05:11,333
Has it been tested?

909
01:05:12,913 --> 01:05:15,573
Financial engineers aren't bridge builders.

910
01:05:16,213 --> 01:05:17,993
Has it been tested both ways?

911
01:05:17,993 --> 01:05:35,333
You know, if you send money one way across that bridge, is it going to come back the other way? And who's charging the toast? If you look very closely, if that's the service, if the bridge is the service, they're the questions you really have to start scrolling through.

912
01:05:35,333 --> 01:05:44,933
It's a fantastic metaphor because that's why I think this ultimately all comes crashing down.

913
01:05:45,093 --> 01:05:55,493
It's the simple notion that let's just pretend it is institutions and all these most sophisticated investors that can't get exposure.

914
01:05:55,793 --> 01:05:57,073
One, I think that's kind of crazy.

915
01:05:57,073 --> 01:06:02,593
Like at the margins, maybe they want certain price exposure directionally or downside protection.

916
01:06:02,593 --> 01:06:05,233
but if like people just want Bitcoin exposure.

917
01:06:06,333 --> 01:06:07,893
So you're saying that they can't figure out

918
01:06:07,893 --> 01:06:09,073
how to get the best Bitcoin exposure.

919
01:06:09,233 --> 01:06:10,313
So they have to default to this.

920
01:06:10,373 --> 01:06:11,253
So that's the first assumption.

921
01:06:11,373 --> 01:06:12,953
Like that's probably not true.

922
01:06:13,453 --> 01:06:17,313
But then the real thing is that everyone coming into the space,

923
01:06:17,353 --> 01:06:19,253
it doesn't matter if it's a pension or an individual,

924
01:06:19,453 --> 01:06:21,133
always comes in with funding money,

925
01:06:21,413 --> 01:06:22,973
with like the stuff in their pocket,

926
01:06:23,073 --> 01:06:25,413
the stuff they find, it's cash app, it's ETF.

927
01:06:25,893 --> 01:06:28,293
We all know it doesn't matter who they are

928
01:06:28,293 --> 01:06:29,633
over a long enough time horizon,

929
01:06:29,633 --> 01:06:34,073
And as the price appreciates, counterparty risk happens or they get educated.

930
01:06:34,593 --> 01:06:36,553
And it's generally a confluence of all those.

931
01:06:36,773 --> 01:06:40,433
They end up increasing their exposure because it's the best performing asset of all time.

932
01:06:40,653 --> 01:06:42,833
And then they ultimately seek out the best solution.

933
01:06:43,933 --> 01:06:47,713
So if that tracks with all these people that are going to be allocating, that are trying

934
01:06:47,713 --> 01:06:51,653
to come across this bridge, they're going to run across because they understand the bridge

935
01:06:51,653 --> 01:06:55,313
is halfway broken and come into the things that we've been talking about, whether it's

936
01:06:55,313 --> 01:06:59,113
spot custody, multiple institutions, multiple jurisdictions, you get the synthetic version,

937
01:06:59,113 --> 01:07:04,853
You get underlying Bitcoin without all of the actual dirt in that product of the other one.

938
01:07:05,273 --> 01:07:17,013
So it's to your point, like this is at minimum where I ultimately have landed with this is just a short little blip into the market, being educated on like what they actually want.

939
01:07:17,613 --> 01:07:20,113
And it's just a product of it's so hard to understand Bitcoin.

940
01:07:20,293 --> 01:07:28,553
And how do you like actually take delivery of material amounts that this is that like mini bridge, but it's not the place where people are going to leave all their money because it's nonsensical.

941
01:07:28,553 --> 01:07:35,653
if a pension or endowment or a family office parts 3% and it ends up as 15 or 30%, they're

942
01:07:35,653 --> 01:07:38,833
just going to be like, oh, leave it with them on that single custodian.

943
01:07:38,833 --> 01:07:42,933
And I hope everything goes right when they see everyone else around them, because this

944
01:07:42,933 --> 01:07:45,133
would also give that nobody else blows up.

945
01:07:45,813 --> 01:07:46,913
Nobody else uses too much leverage.

946
01:07:47,213 --> 01:07:51,233
Nobody's custodian goes down, that they're naturally going to revert back to more sound

947
01:07:51,233 --> 01:07:51,893
solutions.

948
01:07:53,253 --> 01:07:56,673
It's just, again, just pure game theory on how it would end up.

949
01:07:56,673 --> 01:08:25,133
And, you know, I've had Sam Robertson from Cartwright, and he has been very influential in helping a UK pension fund allocate some of their assets under management and set up with you guys, with OnRamp, a custody solution that they are fully 100% happy with, you know, collaborative multisig, institutional multisig.

950
01:08:25,133 --> 01:08:35,693
So that there is a way for, if that's a UK pension fund that's doing that, there is already a way to get exposure to Bitcoin, to the actual asset.

951
01:08:37,033 --> 01:08:49,053
I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be buying a ticker symbol that has exposure to Bitcoin and just leaving it.

952
01:08:49,513 --> 01:08:51,933
That would be insanity.

953
01:08:51,933 --> 01:08:58,853
so the bridge would work for those guys yeah and but you're keen in on you'll appreciate this this

954
01:08:58,853 --> 01:09:03,973
is the incentives of the existing legacy system is sam and cartwright are world-class and they're

955
01:09:03,973 --> 01:09:07,993
sophisticated they lived through the gfc so they understood counterparty risk they needed to get

956
01:09:07,993 --> 01:09:14,453
rid of all of it what's sad is that there's a lot so uh for anybody listening cartwright is a pension

957
01:09:14,453 --> 01:09:19,853
intermediary generally pensions endowments will naturally work with other consultant firms to help

958
01:09:19,853 --> 01:09:23,973
vet asset managers, products, and different things like that. And they set different geographical

959
01:09:23,973 --> 01:09:28,333
regions based on the clients they serve. And so we had a great experience there, but then we've

960
01:09:28,333 --> 01:09:33,153
also worked with consultants in the US and they get very close to particular firms on the asset

961
01:09:33,153 --> 01:09:36,933
management side without naming them. And I've sat in rooms and debated with the large firms,

962
01:09:37,013 --> 01:09:42,993
like these are 20 plus billion dollar like consultant firms. And when you get that large,

963
01:09:42,993 --> 01:09:47,313
you naturally have connections

964
01:09:47,313 --> 01:09:49,993
via the existing asset management products

965
01:09:49,993 --> 01:10:06,378
that have been created Top 10 basket of cryptocurrencies are now the next thing you seeing a lot of these crypto firms and VC firms starting to like play this trade into the treasury companies And so it goes back to the incentive model of maybe you get it like a taboo to bring up

966
01:10:06,378 --> 01:10:11,338
spot Bitcoin, B, you may only get a very material or in material position versus like a treasury

967
01:10:11,338 --> 01:10:14,838
strategy. And especially if you can get in earlier in your connections, because there's no getting

968
01:10:14,838 --> 01:10:17,878
connections to Bitcoin early. Like these things are a little bit different if you can see them.

969
01:10:17,878 --> 01:10:27,638
And so to your point, there's a lot of this like legacy kind of like connectivity based on capital and names that you're getting.

970
01:10:27,898 --> 01:10:34,378
You will get these pensions and others into these trades because the consultants are incentivized to park them into that versus that.

971
01:10:34,458 --> 01:10:35,218
I see this firsthand.

972
01:10:37,618 --> 01:10:45,078
So it's a but the alternatives is like, again, it all is going to shake out in the same way that FTX shook out.

973
01:10:45,078 --> 01:11:10,138
And there's a bunch of, you know, dirt or mud on the faces of the like, I forgot what it was. It was like multiple Canadian pensions that had allocated to FTX. Sequoia is another great example. They're like a blue chip world renowned VC firm. And they have that stain that they'll never get off. And so that's the idea about what we're talking about. Even if we're wrong, we can at least go to sleep at night, saying we didn't necessarily participate or put people in and talked about it.

974
01:11:10,138 --> 01:11:12,058
versus if it all blows up,

975
01:11:12,138 --> 01:11:13,858
well, like that consultant firm has been around

976
01:11:13,858 --> 01:11:15,558
for X number of years, that reputation,

977
01:11:16,218 --> 01:11:17,698
the firm and the people put them in there.

978
01:11:17,858 --> 01:11:19,058
It's like, well, where was that risk?

979
01:11:19,118 --> 01:11:22,058
Nobody told me that there was all this embedded volatility

980
01:11:22,058 --> 01:11:25,078
or counterpart risk and inserted into this product

981
01:11:25,078 --> 01:11:25,678
you put me in.

982
01:11:26,018 --> 01:11:28,938
And I'd love to know how they're custodying it, right?

983
01:11:29,278 --> 01:11:31,718
You guys, you would have a front seat

984
01:11:31,718 --> 01:11:33,498
that you've built a product

985
01:11:33,498 --> 01:11:36,058
that they should be beating your door down.

986
01:11:36,218 --> 01:11:38,038
It's like, hey, we're about to go public.

987
01:11:38,038 --> 01:11:41,838
Like we're about to put like tens of millions of Bitcoin on our balance sheet.

988
01:11:42,278 --> 01:11:44,518
We do not want to be the self-custodian.

989
01:11:44,778 --> 01:11:47,818
We need a multi-sig, a multi-institutional setup.

990
01:11:48,398 --> 01:11:49,318
Are they coming to you?

991
01:11:49,318 --> 01:11:56,938
I know you can't name names, but you must be thinking surely that there's going to be a knock at the door soon.

992
01:11:57,998 --> 01:11:58,738
No, so we are.

993
01:11:58,918 --> 01:12:03,898
Like that's the beautiful part is most people don't know who we are, but sophisticated Bitcoiners do.

994
01:12:03,898 --> 01:12:16,738
And so the way our product has always ended up, whether it's on-ramp or early riders, and I got lucky in the sense of it's been the most surprising is we have the most sophisticated clients.

995
01:12:17,298 --> 01:12:25,538
And it's after talking to them and learning this, and these are people that work at the largest institutions of the world that have their own custody that use us for their personal stuff.

996
01:12:26,238 --> 01:12:34,138
Similarly, the pubcos have started onboarding, but these are pubcos that are very sophisticated and are looking at this that already had businesses.

997
01:12:34,758 --> 01:12:41,278
They're leaning into it. So they already had businesses that were publicly traded. They are adopting more Bitcoin. Their stock is performing because of that.

998
01:12:41,658 --> 01:12:45,558
But they also understand everything we're talking about here and are saying, we want your solution.

999
01:12:46,138 --> 01:12:54,338
And I don't know if they're thinking about it this way, but the way we're going to start pitching it is like it's also going to be a net benefit because when people start blowing up, capital is going to flee from these things that are opaque.

1000
01:12:55,538 --> 01:13:00,218
And so we have enterprise products that are already live, but we haven't really marketed.

1001
01:13:00,358 --> 01:13:05,718
So there's going to be a lot more for just anybody from an SMB all the way to a PubCo that would use our solutions.

1002
01:13:05,718 --> 01:13:07,178
And it's not just multi-institution.

1003
01:13:07,758 --> 01:13:09,378
It could be a three or five in the future.

1004
01:13:09,558 --> 01:13:15,218
It's rules-based controls, permissions, multiple wallets, all the things you would need as a corporate business to manage a treasury.

1005
01:13:16,258 --> 01:13:21,498
But where you're keying in on is there's a lot of companies that will never work with us.

1006
01:13:21,498 --> 01:13:26,118
and it's not the same, but it kind of is.

1007
01:13:26,198 --> 01:13:28,138
It's like my thesis on why microstrategy

1008
01:13:28,138 --> 01:13:30,018
will never show where their underlying Bitcoin is.

1009
01:13:30,098 --> 01:13:31,358
It's not about counterparty risk

1010
01:13:31,358 --> 01:13:32,938
or like anything outside of,

1011
01:13:33,018 --> 01:13:35,378
they want optionality to do things with the underlying.

1012
01:13:36,138 --> 01:13:38,018
And a lot of these Pupco's right now

1013
01:13:38,018 --> 01:13:39,158
are actually doing that.

1014
01:13:39,158 --> 01:13:42,638
So spot Bitcoin and the equity premium

1015
01:13:42,638 --> 01:13:43,758
is not enough for them.

1016
01:13:44,298 --> 01:13:46,538
So they're trying to generate more yield on the underlying.

1017
01:13:47,078 --> 01:13:48,318
That's just a hundred percent of fact.

1018
01:13:48,318 --> 01:13:51,638
and we'll see how that shakes out.

1019
01:13:53,918 --> 01:13:54,398
Yeah.

1020
01:13:54,598 --> 01:13:57,918
I mean, we didn't really mention MicroStrategy too much

1021
01:13:57,918 --> 01:14:01,518
in this whole conversation about Bitcoin treasury companies

1022
01:14:01,518 --> 01:14:04,138
and what Mike did back in,

1023
01:14:04,638 --> 01:14:07,238
well, when he announced in September 2020,

1024
01:14:07,398 --> 01:14:08,738
August 2020, whenever it was,

1025
01:14:08,798 --> 01:14:10,038
when he made that first buy,

1026
01:14:10,578 --> 01:14:13,738
that was literally putting cash they had

1027
01:14:13,738 --> 01:14:15,778
on their balance sheet into Bitcoin

1028
01:14:15,778 --> 01:14:22,938
to keep a company alive in a time that was very, very, you know,

1029
01:14:23,238 --> 01:14:25,978
you didn't know what was going to happen.

1030
01:14:26,178 --> 01:14:28,218
We were in very, very stormy waters,

1031
01:14:28,698 --> 01:14:32,498
and money was being thrown around left, right, and center,

1032
01:14:32,778 --> 01:14:34,438
all of this quantitative easing.

1033
01:14:34,578 --> 01:14:35,698
Nobody knew what was going on.

1034
01:14:35,758 --> 01:14:36,558
We were all locked down.

1035
01:14:37,278 --> 01:14:39,658
And, yeah, Mike just wanted to keep, from what I could tell,

1036
01:14:39,658 --> 01:14:43,838
wanted to keep his company alive and look after his employees.

1037
01:14:43,838 --> 01:14:49,298
And now five years later, that's a completely different story.

1038
01:14:49,438 --> 01:14:51,098
They've gone through the process.

1039
01:14:51,098 --> 01:14:54,358
They understand the asset way deeper than they did back then.

1040
01:14:54,418 --> 01:15:04,578
Obviously, they have their strategy days and they're trying to educate as many people as they possibly can about how best practices to put Bitcoin on the balance sheet.

1041
01:15:07,158 --> 01:15:10,838
That just doesn't seem to be what's happening with these new ones that are getting spun up.

1042
01:15:10,838 --> 01:15:19,458
they're going they're trying to sprint before they can even crawl right it's taken mike and

1043
01:15:19,458 --> 01:15:23,758
his team five years to get to this level of sophistication

1044
01:15:23,758 --> 01:15:31,198
yeah i know and then that brings up a good point in that i think like at a minimum there's probably

1045
01:15:31,198 --> 01:15:36,358
three core buckets and what we're talking about here and it's like micro strategy with the

1046
01:15:36,358 --> 01:15:40,438
immaculate conception like there was one to get this size of bitcoin and play off of that reflexive

1047
01:15:40,438 --> 01:15:45,038
flywheel for capital markets and the volatility and all the products they're creating. And then

1048
01:15:45,038 --> 01:15:50,138
I think that there's like natural pubcos that already were existed and had some type of company

1049
01:15:50,138 --> 01:15:54,938
and then they're leaning into it. And then I think there's the last layer of like the whole co

1050
01:15:54,938 --> 01:16:06,038
that just comes in to buy Bitcoin and then has some different incentive. And they're different

1051
01:16:06,038 --> 01:16:09,838
because there's some that maybe want exit liquidity, right?

1052
01:16:09,898 --> 01:16:11,518
For their own, like to make more Bitcoin.

1053
01:16:12,058 --> 01:16:14,378
But I think you referenced some here that like,

1054
01:16:14,878 --> 01:16:17,278
there's a lot of capital that sits outside.

1055
01:16:17,478 --> 01:16:18,778
That's like, I don't want to say it's black,

1056
01:16:18,838 --> 01:16:21,718
but it's capital that isn't in the financial system.

1057
01:16:22,098 --> 01:16:23,698
And if you can generate it outside

1058
01:16:23,698 --> 01:16:25,498
and then park it into the financial system

1059
01:16:25,498 --> 01:16:27,738
via like, you know, the publicly traded company,

1060
01:16:27,898 --> 01:16:29,518
and then you can start to leverage,

1061
01:16:29,738 --> 01:16:31,458
you know, to lend against that, create derivatives,

1062
01:16:31,738 --> 01:16:33,358
then it gives you a way to bring it in.

1063
01:16:33,778 --> 01:16:35,358
Like there's just different incentive models

1064
01:16:35,358 --> 01:16:37,438
dependent on where people are.

1065
01:16:37,678 --> 01:16:38,358
This is without naming,

1066
01:16:38,458 --> 01:16:39,398
but you probably know what I'm talking about.

1067
01:16:39,458 --> 01:16:41,298
Like there's different angles

1068
01:16:41,298 --> 01:16:44,558
to why people are doing this.

1069
01:16:44,598 --> 01:16:45,598
And I think we're just getting started.

1070
01:16:45,678 --> 01:16:46,898
So there's probably going to be more.

1071
01:16:47,418 --> 01:16:48,758
And this is where it ties back to

1072
01:16:48,758 --> 01:16:50,858
maybe this was always the way it's going to play out.

1073
01:16:50,858 --> 01:16:53,758
I think that will be probably the most interesting

1074
01:16:53,758 --> 01:16:57,418
is somebody eventually will get hacked

1075
01:16:57,418 --> 01:17:01,098
or they will blow up because of leverage

1076
01:17:01,098 --> 01:17:01,878
or the volatility.

1077
01:17:02,438 --> 01:17:03,738
And it's going to be really interesting

1078
01:17:03,738 --> 01:17:10,098
to see where the flight to quality goes into the different pubcos, like a micro strategy

1079
01:17:10,098 --> 01:17:17,378
versus where the kind of like, it's going to be like reflexive with the stock price.

1080
01:17:17,518 --> 01:17:18,758
And then do you rebuy the Bitcoin?

1081
01:17:18,878 --> 01:17:19,678
Do you sell the Bitcoin?

1082
01:17:19,838 --> 01:17:21,498
Like what happens to these companies?

1083
01:17:21,558 --> 01:17:25,778
Because I think it's in, we live in this momentum, narrative-based culture, right?

1084
01:17:25,858 --> 01:17:26,258
Vibes.

1085
01:17:26,498 --> 01:17:31,378
And so as fast as things go up, we all know as quick as they can come down.

1086
01:17:31,378 --> 01:17:33,278
And it's like, what is that going to look like?

1087
01:17:33,738 --> 01:17:36,958
is the thing that I think we're probably trying to all figure out.

1088
01:17:37,318 --> 01:17:38,338
Yeah, that's a great point.

1089
01:17:38,498 --> 01:17:40,018
I mean, the genie's out of the bottle, right?

1090
01:17:40,078 --> 01:17:41,818
Or the toothpaste is out of the tube.

1091
01:17:41,878 --> 01:17:44,638
You're not going to put it back in and something is going to happen.

1092
01:17:44,758 --> 01:17:45,998
There is going to be a big blow up.

1093
01:17:46,058 --> 01:17:49,618
There'll be an Enron style Bitcoin treasury company,

1094
01:17:49,618 --> 01:17:56,918
or there'll be a founding team that just disappears or something off into the sunset.

1095
01:17:57,998 --> 01:18:03,138
And all that capital will, I mean, it would have set the flywheel in motion

1096
01:18:03,138 --> 01:18:08,538
because that money on the periphery will still want in.

1097
01:18:08,798 --> 01:18:12,018
But now the due diligence will be a lot deeper.

1098
01:18:12,898 --> 01:18:17,878
And that's where companies like MicroStrategy have stood the test of time

1099
01:18:17,878 --> 01:18:19,698
and people love them or hate them.

1100
01:18:19,838 --> 01:18:20,658
It doesn't really matter.

1101
01:18:20,858 --> 01:18:21,698
Here they are.

1102
01:18:22,458 --> 01:18:23,718
And they're still listed.

1103
01:18:24,298 --> 01:18:26,178
And they're still the same team.

1104
01:18:26,318 --> 01:18:28,338
And they're still the same CEO chairman.

1105
01:18:28,778 --> 01:18:32,018
And they've still got the same business analytics product

1106
01:18:32,018 --> 01:18:33,758
that is being offered into the marketplace,

1107
01:18:34,678 --> 01:18:38,178
that's probably where that money is going to be attracted.

1108
01:18:39,658 --> 01:18:41,258
Yeah, I think the other side is

1109
01:18:41,258 --> 01:18:44,438
if the market can grow fast enough

1110
01:18:44,438 --> 01:18:48,238
to create products for these different models

1111
01:18:48,238 --> 01:18:49,578
to actually generate revenue

1112
01:18:49,578 --> 01:18:53,638
and justify holding Bitcoin.

1113
01:18:53,918 --> 01:18:54,858
So I'll give you an example.

1114
01:18:54,998 --> 01:18:56,318
It's a company we were looking at

1115
01:18:56,318 --> 01:18:58,518
and there's multiple out there trying to do it

1116
01:18:58,518 --> 01:19:01,378
where you're ultimately allowing,

1117
01:19:01,378 --> 01:19:08,538
It's in the US, but I think this probably exists globally where the majority of a lot of people's wealth sits in the equity in their real estate.

1118
01:19:09,618 --> 01:19:15,158
And so to take some conservative leverage out of that real estate, I think we all agree similar to equity markets.

1119
01:19:15,298 --> 01:19:21,818
Like real estate, maybe it corrects, but it can't really delever because it would just be chaos in the world in the same way like the equity markets crash.

1120
01:19:21,818 --> 01:19:43,118
And so the idea is if somebody holds, let's just say they have a million dollar valued home and they had $500,000 in equity in there, they could take some conservative portion of that 500K, purchase it, the company would purchase Bitcoin on their behalf, and then they participate in the upside.

1121
01:19:43,118 --> 01:19:48,978
right well you have to get the other side of that market which is the dollar liquidity to buy the

1122
01:19:48,978 --> 01:19:55,898
bitcoin or the bitcoin and so it's actually a very interesting product for ogs or large bitcoin

1123
01:19:55,898 --> 01:20:03,098
holders to park the bitcoin and then participate in some of the upsides right like you know if you

1124
01:20:03,098 --> 01:20:06,918
park dollars your bitcoin and then has the price moves you get to you get your bitcoin back plus

1125
01:20:06,918 --> 01:20:11,838
whatever the additional i don't see anything wrong with that like i think that's a natural

1126
01:20:11,838 --> 01:20:15,538
forces of the market will grow and Bitcoin's going to get infused in all these things that are

1127
01:20:15,538 --> 01:20:23,778
overpriced as far as like had a monetary premium. And it's like, well, how fast does that happen?

1128
01:20:23,838 --> 01:20:27,078
Because I do think that will help some of these companies be able to justify. I think that's

1129
01:20:27,078 --> 01:20:30,278
their vision of what the early some of them that are trying to do something interesting.

1130
01:20:30,798 --> 01:20:35,138
But the problem is like, we're still so early in infancy in Bitcoin's market. And then the problem

1131
01:20:35,138 --> 01:20:39,178
with being in infancy in Bitcoin, the Bitcoin market and the products is most of them won't

1132
01:20:39,178 --> 01:20:43,958
blow up when you first start because bitcoin's like this radioactive stuff that we've seen this

1133
01:20:43,958 --> 01:20:47,278
in wall street like you try to lend against it and everyone blew up like something very proud of

1134
01:20:47,278 --> 01:20:51,678
is that a chain we never suffered one loan loss billion dollar plus book never suffered one loan

1135
01:20:51,678 --> 01:20:56,838
loss never suffered uh that's unheard of and retail lending everyone blew up and it's because it was

1136
01:20:56,838 --> 01:21:00,738
transparent leverage bolting institution all these like natural kind of things that we know

1137
01:21:00,738 --> 01:21:07,178
are kind of core to building in the space well these people don't know that and uh even bitcoiners

1138
01:21:07,178 --> 01:21:10,778
coming in don't know that because a lot of people were Bitcoiners at BlockFi or other companies,

1139
01:21:10,778 --> 01:21:16,138
but they just build off of fiat world. They're thinking in very 2D ways of building versus 3D.

1140
01:21:16,138 --> 01:21:19,658
And that's what I ultimately think of multi-institution. It's this notion of it's a

1141
01:21:19,658 --> 01:21:33,643
three way to build what historically was If you were going to buy a horse 100 years ago you just gave somebody in exchange your gold It the same thing we do today We send the Bitcoin to a third party We hope to God they give it back to us And there just a new architecture now for all of us

1142
01:21:35,023 --> 01:21:41,523
Yeah. It's going to be an interesting 18 months, mate. It really is. And I'm here for it,

1143
01:21:41,583 --> 01:21:48,543
obviously. I hope there's not... I hope my worst fears don't come to pass. Let's put it that way.

1144
01:21:48,543 --> 01:21:51,263
I hope I'm being too overcautious.

1145
01:21:51,403 --> 01:21:53,983
I hope I'm being too conspiratorial.

1146
01:21:54,603 --> 01:21:55,963
And everything's going to be fine.

1147
01:21:56,503 --> 01:21:58,543
And, you know, Wall Street's going to come.

1148
01:21:58,883 --> 01:22:00,483
And Bitcoin is going to do its thing.

1149
01:22:00,703 --> 01:22:06,403
And turn clown world back on its, you know, it's going to right the ship.

1150
01:22:07,243 --> 01:22:10,883
But, look, I came from that world.

1151
01:22:10,963 --> 01:22:11,763
I came from Wall Street.

1152
01:22:11,983 --> 01:22:14,123
I know what these people do.

1153
01:22:14,243 --> 01:22:17,203
I've seen inside that particular company that we mentioned earlier.

1154
01:22:17,203 --> 01:22:23,783
and uh yeah that that's that's where my concern is coming from so again warning to the listeners

1155
01:22:23,783 --> 01:22:30,783
just stack sats stay humble take self-custody and uh keep educating yourself but i will like

1156
01:22:30,783 --> 01:22:37,003
now ask you the final question michael if you've got one last orange pill left to give to somebody

1157
01:22:37,003 --> 01:22:45,183
who would you give it to and why i mean if the first person that comes to mind is the orange man

1158
01:22:45,183 --> 01:22:52,143
Mr. Donald Trump, because it seems like he has the ability and what's happening to really shake

1159
01:22:52,143 --> 01:22:59,423
things up for better or worse. And he obviously doesn't understand Bitcoin. And I think what he

1160
01:22:59,423 --> 01:23:05,583
does understand is himself and his legacy and the notion that he could, if he really truly understood

1161
01:23:05,583 --> 01:23:10,083
what it meant, not only for his own personal finances, we know they're making small allocations,

1162
01:23:10,083 --> 01:23:15,423
but to really materially move in that direction and then figure out a way to really embrace what

1163
01:23:15,423 --> 01:23:20,523
we're doing or what's happening here, it'd be pretty transformative. But I don't think he

1164
01:23:20,523 --> 01:23:26,743
really understands what Bitcoin is. He's too busy spitting up meme coins on Solana, right?

1165
01:23:26,903 --> 01:23:34,843
So that's the problem. Yep. His network around them, I think they're all opportunists. It

1166
01:23:34,843 --> 01:23:39,723
encapsulates everything we talked about here is Trump and the team. So we see them just getting

1167
01:23:39,723 --> 01:23:43,323
exposure everything it's bullish sentiment in the sense that they know what's coming

1168
01:23:44,043 --> 01:23:49,003
i think there's no way the next 18 months don't end up i mean shouldn't say no way but would end

1169
01:23:49,003 --> 01:23:54,763
up in favor of the price but it's at the cost of like uh you know how much learning and how much

1170
01:23:54,763 --> 01:24:00,043
touching the stove our individual's gonna have to do and then we didn't talk about this but where it

1171
01:24:00,043 --> 01:24:05,963
ends up in the uh sentiment because we saw post ftx how much the sentiment was against bitcoin

1172
01:24:05,963 --> 01:24:07,903
even though it had nothing to do with Bitcoin.

1173
01:24:08,523 --> 01:24:10,683
It's like if the deleveraging really does happen,

1174
01:24:10,763 --> 01:24:13,283
how much of the sentiment is going to happen

1175
01:24:13,283 --> 01:24:16,283
or shift around Bitcoin and how it's controlled

1176
01:24:16,283 --> 01:24:20,103
to make sure it never happens again.

1177
01:24:20,203 --> 01:24:21,783
It could be a very nasty byproduct.

1178
01:24:22,383 --> 01:24:24,003
Well, yeah, if that does happen,

1179
01:24:24,183 --> 01:24:28,303
then the opposing party are going to use that big time,

1180
01:24:28,383 --> 01:24:34,183
big time attack on a crypto friendly president, right?

1181
01:24:34,183 --> 01:24:35,943
It happened on your watch.

1182
01:24:36,103 --> 01:24:38,583
You can just see all of the headlines now.

1183
01:24:39,803 --> 01:24:41,323
So yeah, the next four years,

1184
01:24:41,483 --> 01:24:44,783
we could be going into another hard crypto winter,

1185
01:24:45,303 --> 01:24:47,503
for want of a better word, Bitcoin winter.

1186
01:24:48,463 --> 01:24:49,863
So yeah, tread carefully, guys.

1187
01:24:50,483 --> 01:24:53,363
Michael, how can people get a hold of you

1188
01:24:53,363 --> 01:24:55,803
if they want to learn more about OnRamp?

1189
01:24:56,123 --> 01:24:58,643
I actually saw just recently,

1190
01:24:58,843 --> 01:25:01,023
it looked like you guys were trying to add to the team.

1191
01:25:01,023 --> 01:25:02,843
So if you've got anything you want to announce there,

1192
01:25:02,963 --> 01:25:04,123
just let the listeners know.

1193
01:25:05,063 --> 01:25:05,783
Yeah, I appreciate it.

1194
01:25:05,823 --> 01:25:07,583
If folks are looking to build in this space,

1195
01:25:07,803 --> 01:25:10,143
whether they have ideas core to what we're doing,

1196
01:25:10,323 --> 01:25:11,723
I talked about here, but in the right way,

1197
01:25:11,843 --> 01:25:12,623
please reach out.

1198
01:25:13,183 --> 01:25:15,463
But then we're also hiring across our portfolio companies

1199
01:25:15,463 --> 01:25:16,223
and at OnRent.

1200
01:25:16,463 --> 01:25:18,343
So again, if you want to build in the right way,

1201
01:25:18,623 --> 01:25:19,703
you can reach out.

1202
01:25:19,923 --> 01:25:21,343
My Twitter handle is mtanguma

1203
01:25:21,343 --> 01:25:23,863
or michael at onrentbitcoin.com.

1204
01:25:24,543 --> 01:25:26,223
And yeah, we're always open to feedback,

1205
01:25:26,363 --> 01:25:27,363
things we can do better,

1206
01:25:27,523 --> 01:25:29,263
or if we can make introductions.

1207
01:25:29,263 --> 01:25:30,203
It's still so early.

1208
01:25:30,343 --> 01:25:32,563
So I always appreciate the DMs or the emails

1209
01:25:32,563 --> 01:25:35,483
and happy to, you know, route them or jump on a call if it makes sense.

1210
01:25:36,223 --> 01:25:36,543
Excellent.

1211
01:25:36,803 --> 01:25:37,083
All right.

1212
01:25:37,123 --> 01:25:38,243
Well, thanks for coming on, Michael.

1213
01:25:38,363 --> 01:25:39,303
Thanks for giving up your time.

1214
01:25:39,463 --> 01:25:43,363
Thanks for building Bitcoin businesses for us to use.

1215
01:25:43,703 --> 01:25:46,303
And yeah, well, let's catch up again soon.

1216
01:25:47,263 --> 01:25:47,723
Yeah, definitely.

1217
01:25:47,843 --> 01:25:48,543
Thanks for having me on, Daniel.

1218
01:25:49,023 --> 01:25:49,523
Take care.

1219
01:25:50,983 --> 01:25:51,843
There you go, guys.

1220
01:25:51,943 --> 01:25:53,183
Thank you so much for listening.

1221
01:25:53,283 --> 01:25:54,763
And thanks again, Michael, for coming on.

1222
01:25:54,763 --> 01:25:57,623
If you want to go and check out what they're doing over at Early Riders,

1223
01:25:57,823 --> 01:25:58,923
we talked about that.

1224
01:25:59,043 --> 01:26:02,423
That's the venture capital fund that they are funding Bitcoin builders with.

1225
01:26:02,563 --> 01:26:09,863
like you said right there, shoot him a DM, reach out or OnRamp, go and look at what OnRamp are doing.

1226
01:26:09,983 --> 01:26:14,703
They're offering you this service where you can, they'll set up the multi-sig for you.

1227
01:26:14,963 --> 01:26:25,063
So it's a very low lift and you know, everything's a trade-off and I'm sure you're going to lose some sleep

1228
01:26:25,063 --> 01:26:30,103
over something at some point throughout your Bitcoin journey.

1229
01:26:30,303 --> 01:26:32,643
So just keep it as basic as you possibly can

1230
01:26:32,643 --> 01:26:36,643
and utilize the tools and services that are out there when they present themselves.

1231
01:26:36,843 --> 01:26:40,203
And OnRamp, I would say, is definitely worth your time going to check out

1232
01:26:40,203 --> 01:26:44,563
to see if it's a service for you and to get that multi-sig set up.

1233
01:26:45,123 --> 01:26:47,363
So you might be able to sleep a little bit easier

1234
01:26:47,363 --> 01:26:51,183
if X amount of your stack is locked away somewhere else.

1235
01:26:51,503 --> 01:26:53,863
These services exist for a reason

1236
01:26:53,863 --> 01:26:57,803
and it is of course up to you to do your own research.

1237
01:26:58,803 --> 01:27:01,063
There are other tools and services out there

1238
01:27:01,063 --> 01:27:03,443
and Michael's even worked for some in the past.

1239
01:27:03,703 --> 01:27:05,863
So Unchained, as we talked about,

1240
01:27:06,603 --> 01:27:08,523
was part of his journey

1241
01:27:08,523 --> 01:27:11,403
and with his good friend Parker,

1242
01:27:11,663 --> 01:27:13,243
who Parker now is over at Zaprite.

1243
01:27:13,763 --> 01:27:15,443
So zaprite.com,

1244
01:27:15,443 --> 01:27:19,323
they offer you a way to start accepting Bitcoin

1245
01:27:19,323 --> 01:27:22,443
at your business by issuing invoices.

1246
01:27:22,443 --> 01:27:31,983
They've built that issuing platform so you can start issuing invoices for absolutely anything and link it directly to your hardware wallet.

1247
01:27:32,443 --> 01:27:39,503
And hardware wallets, like we talk about at the beginning and the end of every show, Bitbox is a great tool for you.

1248
01:27:39,703 --> 01:27:47,663
So if you are taking self-custody, even if you're easing yourself in and you're only going to be single SIG for the moment, that's absolutely perfectly fine.

1249
01:27:47,663 --> 01:27:49,723
We do this one step at a time.

1250
01:27:50,303 --> 01:27:57,523
And if you're brand new to Bitcoin or you've been around for a little while and you've not taken self-custody, you absolutely 100% should do.

1251
01:27:57,963 --> 01:27:59,903
Bitbox is the best way for you to get going.

1252
01:28:00,143 --> 01:28:04,783
You can find videos on their own website or even on BTC Sessions.

1253
01:28:04,923 --> 01:28:08,603
He'll walk you through on his YouTube channel how to set one up, how to use it.

1254
01:28:08,823 --> 01:28:14,503
They do have a new product coming up, the Nova, which I'm very much looking forward to seeing.

1255
01:28:14,503 --> 01:28:19,403
So get over to bitbox.swiss, check out what the Nova is, what it offers you, how it differs.

1256
01:28:20,403 --> 01:28:27,863
It is a Bitcoin-only piece of hardware and something you definitely should take into consideration

1257
01:28:27,863 --> 01:28:31,303
if you've not started taking self-custody of your Bitcoin.

1258
01:28:31,943 --> 01:28:33,823
What else is left to say here?

1259
01:28:34,283 --> 01:28:36,463
Bitcoin Paper Summer marches on.

1260
01:28:36,683 --> 01:28:38,823
If you don't know what Bitcoin Paper Summer is,

1261
01:28:38,823 --> 01:28:56,703
It's this latest craze of venture capitalists finding a founder somewhere in a far-flung land to be sent enough money to buy a company that is already listed on the stock exchange but probably unprofitable.

1262
01:28:56,703 --> 01:29:02,403
they take that they buy that company they might even keep some of that board on there and then

1263
01:29:02,403 --> 01:29:08,263
they start using the venture capital fund to start buying bitcoin and then pumping the stock

1264
01:29:08,263 --> 01:29:14,323
in that nation wherever it is listed on whatever boss or exchange it is and uh and using the

1265
01:29:14,323 --> 01:29:23,563
headlines to to create some kind of uh traction it's it's a strange one uh it's happening you can't

1266
01:29:23,563 --> 01:29:24,623
You can't stop it happening.

1267
01:29:24,783 --> 01:29:29,603
Now, this is not the way I would like to see Bitcoin companies stack Bitcoin.

1268
01:29:29,603 --> 01:29:34,423
What I'd like to see is your mom and pop store that you are trying to orange pill on the street,

1269
01:29:34,663 --> 01:29:39,343
start stacking Bitcoin on a monthly basis with some of the profit that they have made

1270
01:29:39,343 --> 01:29:44,723
in a much more dignified manner, I would say,

1271
01:29:45,143 --> 01:29:49,443
rather than just trying to chase this dangled carrot

1272
01:29:49,443 --> 01:29:53,683
and there's this cheap fiat VC money that keeps coming into this space.

1273
01:29:54,243 --> 01:29:55,863
What's going on as well is very worrying.

1274
01:29:56,903 --> 01:29:59,283
This is spilled over into shitcoin land already.

1275
01:29:59,943 --> 01:30:02,263
And I read a report in the Financial Times recently.

1276
01:30:03,123 --> 01:30:08,843
£888 million was raised by a company that is being headed up by Bob Diamond,

1277
01:30:09,103 --> 01:30:14,283
disgraced CEO of Barclays, who had to resign during the LIBOR scandal,

1278
01:30:14,283 --> 01:30:17,663
is now running a token called HYPE.

1279
01:30:17,663 --> 01:30:23,163
and that is going to be the token that some of these companies are going to be putting onto their balance sheet.

1280
01:30:23,303 --> 01:30:27,763
So this is going to get very frothy, very weird, very quickly.

1281
01:30:28,543 --> 01:30:33,643
Stay out of the way of it, stack your sats, remain humble, tune out of the noise,

1282
01:30:34,003 --> 01:30:37,803
take self-custody and you will just be fine in a cycle or two.

1283
01:30:37,803 --> 01:30:40,443
That is just how Bitcoin works.

1284
01:30:41,343 --> 01:30:44,583
Fiat around and find out is the new saying on the street,

1285
01:30:44,583 --> 01:30:46,503
which I'm trying to meme into existence

1286
01:30:46,503 --> 01:30:49,403
because if you fear around with any of your stack,

1287
01:30:49,763 --> 01:30:50,643
you will find out.

1288
01:30:51,163 --> 01:30:51,983
Bitcoin doesn't care.

1289
01:30:52,383 --> 01:30:54,403
It humbles everybody that touches it.

1290
01:30:54,803 --> 01:30:57,203
So just remember, stack safe.

1291
01:30:57,583 --> 01:30:58,623
Stay humble.

1292
01:30:59,403 --> 01:31:02,163
Up your listening on the Bitcoin podcast scene.

1293
01:31:02,343 --> 01:31:05,523
Get over to bubble.fm, B-U-B-B-L.fm.

1294
01:31:05,663 --> 01:31:08,583
Curate your 40 hours per week of podcasts.

1295
01:31:08,943 --> 01:31:12,503
I've got a podcast episode with Richard Greaser

1296
01:31:12,503 --> 01:31:13,863
coming out soon from The Bugle.

1297
01:31:13,863 --> 01:31:15,923
I'm looking forward to releasing that one

1298
01:31:15,923 --> 01:31:18,063
and what else

1299
01:31:18,063 --> 01:31:20,043
is left to say? PayWithFlash.com is the best

1300
01:31:20,043 --> 01:31:22,183
way for you to start accepting Bitcoin

1301
01:31:22,183 --> 01:31:24,043
for your goods and services

1302
01:31:24,043 --> 01:31:26,103
and ah, I forgot

1303
01:31:26,103 --> 01:31:28,343
to shill, I forgot to shill

1304
01:31:28,343 --> 01:31:30,043
one of the best

1305
01:31:30,043 --> 01:31:31,243
podcasts in the space

1306
01:31:31,243 --> 01:31:33,303
I still hope you're all listening

1307
01:31:33,303 --> 01:31:35,983
and I sincerely apologize to

1308
01:31:35,983 --> 01:31:37,703
Nanya Bidnis who

1309
01:31:37,703 --> 01:31:40,003
we've started cross shilling

1310
01:31:40,003 --> 01:31:42,183
each other's podcasts just out of friendship

1311
01:31:42,183 --> 01:31:49,063
just out of relationship building. He's been in the space for much longer than I. He's been running

1312
01:31:49,063 --> 01:31:56,203
a podcast for much longer than I. He's released over 1100 episodes. He's a machine. He gets it

1313
01:31:56,203 --> 01:32:03,523
done almost daily. And he reads the news that you can use. He does not cherry pick. He reads

1314
01:32:03,523 --> 01:32:09,683
absolutely everything across the space. And then he explains what's going on. And he keeps you up

1315
01:32:09,683 --> 01:32:14,243
to date. He will keep you up to date with every single release of every single Bitcoin treasury

1316
01:32:14,243 --> 01:32:20,763
company around the world. And then he will explain to you whether he believes this is a good one,

1317
01:32:20,763 --> 01:32:26,103
an indifferent one, or one you definitely need to steer clear of. He will have the same kind of

1318
01:32:26,103 --> 01:32:33,343
thoughts on this as I do. And that is, please just self-custody your Bitcoin. Sleep easy at night.

1319
01:32:33,783 --> 01:32:39,103
Look into the multi-sig options if you want. You certainly should consider that. I mean,

1320
01:32:39,103 --> 01:32:41,403
It doesn't cost you anything to visit a website.

1321
01:32:41,563 --> 01:32:43,363
Get over to onrampbitcoin.com.

1322
01:32:44,423 --> 01:32:47,223
And yeah, that's the last thing I really want to say.

1323
01:32:47,303 --> 01:32:50,143
If you're going to be in Helsinki, please come over and say hi.

1324
01:32:50,483 --> 01:32:51,543
Look forward to seeing you there.

1325
01:32:51,823 --> 01:32:53,103
And thank you all for listening.

1326
01:32:53,443 --> 01:32:54,843
I ran out of music ages ago.

1327
01:32:55,123 --> 01:32:55,683
Take care.

1328
01:32:56,123 --> 01:32:56,623
See you later.