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Hello, everybody. My name is Daniel Prince, and I'm the host of the Once Bitten podcast.

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This is a podcast focused on Bitcoin. It's my mission to interview as many people as I can

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around the different aspects of Bitcoin and help people understand exactly what Bitcoin could mean

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for them and for their families and for their future. I hope you enjoy the show. Thank you so

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much for listening. Hello everybody and welcome to this episode of the Once Bitten podcast.

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Joining me today is Max Hillebrand who has been taking Nostra by storm recently just crunching

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out the content. If you're not following Max on Nostra you should be. You won't find him anywhere

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else because reasons and he's been putting fingers to keyboards recently and absolutely dropping fire

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day after day it seems like we go through a few of these and then get into different tangential

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rabbit holes uh we talk about white noise and we talk about uh you know the the idea of how do we

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get scalable group encryption is what he terms it or maybe many other people have termed it before

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him and this is the first time i'm hearing it i'm i don't want to put any accolades on max uh i

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really appreciate everything that uh he's been doing in the past for bitcoin he's been on this

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show many times and many others he's been around for a long time fun fact you can go back and find

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some very young Max Hillebrand videos of helping people set up Bitcoin wallets when he first fell

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into the rabbit hole. And yeah, it's just great to see that he's been around for such a long time,

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always thinking about more privacy and how to transact in a private way. And he has his own

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website, towardsliberty.com, where you can go and book a meeting with him. And he's going to help

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you with that if that's with bitcoin or with nostor or with uh whatever that anything is going

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to help you move towards liberty and that's what max is here to do so before we get into the show

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just want to give a quick shout out to the show sponsors relay are there for you to start stacking

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sats r-e-l-a-i dot ch forward slash bitten user code bitten and you will save on commission fees

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you can start stacking sats across Europe with Relay,

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saving the knowledge that it's a Bitcoin-only app

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and that will make you set up a wallet

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so you will be in control.

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And please, I'm never going to tire of saying this.

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Write the words down.

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Do not take a screenshot, okay?

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Do not take a screenshot.

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Do not take a picture ever.

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Do not digitally input ever your seed phrase

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into a computer or a phone.

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nope offline people pen and paper break out the old quill and the ink pot if you must that is safe

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write down the words the bitcoin then is only accessible to you because you're the only one

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has the keys to move that bitcoin all right lecture over relay r-e-l-a-i dot ch forward

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slash bitten are there to help you stack your sats convert your fiat currency into the world's

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hardest money we've ever ever discovered as a species it's that simple then like i said

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take self-custody so bitbox.swiss forward slash bitten if you have already stacked sats and you've

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got some bitcoin sitting on an exchange account somewhere that's not your bitcoin that's a news

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flash that's the exchange is bitcoin they've taken your fiat currency they've exchanged it

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for you and they've told you, yeah, hey, yeah, you are entitled to this amount of Bitcoin.

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But you've not taken control of it if you've not taken it away from them. You can do that

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with bitbox.swiss forward slash bitten, a hardware wallet and use the code bitten to get 5% discount

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because then you are the only one in control of that Bitcoin. So please take that very seriously.

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bitbox.swiss forward slash bitten paywithflash.com i had a catch up call with pierre corbin he's one

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of the co-founders of pay with flash who are very much focused on taking bitcoin to the next level

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and becoming a medium of exchange which is inevitable we are still so early but there's big

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movements in that space especially with the rollout of bitcoin payments being accepted across square

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terminals in the US and Nathan Day has been very busy with BTC maps getting BTC maps up to date

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because now all of a sudden four million merchants bona fidedly started accepting Bitcoin now the

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purists are going to say yeah but bro they're just flipping it to fiat in the background like

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yeah okay maybe like I said early days but they accept Bitcoin you can walk into now one of four

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million merchants in America and use Bitcoin so you can start living on Bitcoin you can exit the

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system. Apparently, it's going even crazier in South Africa, where a company called Money Badger,

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brilliant name, by the way, guys, have unlocked fiat and Bitcoin payments. So you can start

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spending Bitcoin all over that country too. This is happening. It is inevitable. Paywithflash.com

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are going to be there to be helping businesses start stacking sats in a similar way. So pay

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close attention to paywithflash.com. Meanwhile, here's the episode with Max.

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All right, Max, back on the show. Great to have you. How are you doing?

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Let's go. Thanks, Daniel. Thanks, Laura. I'm really looking forward to this one. It's been a while.

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It has been a while. We've seen plenty of you in real life this year, but it's been a while since

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we've caught up on the pod and put our conversation out there into the ether.

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but uh yeah how's 2025 been for you so far

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really good man it really was a heck of a year like so much building so many awesome projects

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that are making insane progress um a lot of fun man i'm busy and that that's a good thing

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like building freedom tech is is the best all right good to hear it lohan over to you

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fire away with your first question um what is the most important thing about privacy for you

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oh that's as always a damn good question um i would say it's it's the the cheapest way to stop

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people from stealing from you right because if if someone doesn't know that you exist who you are

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what you have where you are where you're going to be then it becomes really damn difficult for

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them to hurt you or to take your stuff.

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And I don't like people taking other people's stuff.

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And I think that's one of the cool realizations of the cypherpunks is that when we have strong

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privacy tools, then theft becomes simply unprofitable.

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Then the adversary has to spend 100 Bitcoin to steal one Bitcoin and any adversary will

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very quickly stop doing that then.

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And so this asymmetry of power to make the cost of defense extremely cheap and the cost

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of attack extremely expensive, that is a clear-cut economic incentive to a freer world.

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And so privacy is super important in that aspect.

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And that's why I kind of turned from a freedom maximalist to a privacy maximalist, because

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I realized that privacy is a really great strategy of freedom.

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yeah definitely um are we private enough i don't know no is the answer

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no i don't think so

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even if i were to ask max that question he would say no he's well podcasting yeah there's definitely

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not there's no perfect right max well i i mean what's the definition of privacy right it's the

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ability to selectively reveal yourself to the world. And you're right now choosing to reveal

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yourself to the world. And I would say that's actually still a private choice. You make that

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voluntarily. You turn on the camera, you click record, because you have something important to

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share with the world. And spreading the good word and being loud about that and speaking your truth

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is incredibly important.

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And it's good that we have people like you

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that do that, you know,

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professionally for a living all the time,

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just because it's a war of ideas

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and ideas are extremely powerful.

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And when we seed good ideas in people,

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then that makes them better.

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And so I'm sure that you've reached

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countless thousands of people by now

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and made meaningful improvements to their lives.

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And that's a fantastic thing.

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And you don't have to be fully anonymous and hide in your closet all the time and never leave the house.

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That's not the existence most humans actually want.

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It's quite nice to reveal yourself to others, to engage with others, to express your opinions,

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and then to listen to others as well and incorporate that into your own thoughts.

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That is extremely powerful and at the core of human existence.

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But the aspect that you can turn off the camera when you don't want to be public, that we can have a private conversation off record as we just did before, or then when we meet in person in meet space somewhere, then we don't have to share everything that we're talking about there.

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So just the fact that you are public in some aspects of your lives doesn't mean that you're not a private person.

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And as long as you consciously and carefully choose of what do you say to whom and when And of course when you publish something on the internet it probably there forever and anyone can see it So

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that is certainly an extreme thing to do that we haven't been able to do for the vast majority of

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human existence. So that's a new thing and kind of humanity is still grappling with that crazy

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aspect of the internet. But I think you're doing a quite good job with it.

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happy about that i mean yeah yeah that that's a good answer and that could even go for like you

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know when you if your grandparents ask you a question and you only give them like 30 of the

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answer that you're willing to give that is your choice to choose the privacy over what you're

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saying so like you know that that is your power that's your i don't use the word right um

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I would say it is a right.

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You have the right to be quiet and to choose your world carefully and to not talk with someone in the first place.

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You have the right to leave.

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These are all the right things to do.

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If you want to do that, it's your right.

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It wouldn't be a wrong or a bad thing to do.

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Ultimately, rights for me derive from property rights.

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and specifically from your right in your body.

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And it's your lips, your tongue, your vocal cords.

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And if you do want to share something or not,

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then that's literally your body has the ability to do it.

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And anyone rejecting you that is wrong.

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Someone telling you that you have to tell me this now,

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that's not the right thing to do in most cases.

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Right, Max.

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Here's her homework.

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go and read A Lodging of Wayfaring Men

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I'll wrap this up for you

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and put it under the tree

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is that the only gift that you're getting me?

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yeah, I've only just decided

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that, you know

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so it's not private gift anymore

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you know it's coming

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actually, one of the highlights

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of this year actually

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for me, was

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chatting with you and Paul Rosenberg

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backstage at B2C Prague

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and uh just you know it's so nice to meet an author of a book well first of all you recommended

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this book you shield it hard you you were not shilling lightly max and uh i really enjoyed it

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and i got to tell paul the story of how i come in possession of this book and that's a big shout

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out to uh simon from bridge to bitcoin who runs a bitcoin shop and he he uh writes the

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Oh, so you have to sell Grote Edition.

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Damn, that's a rare thing to have.

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He writes the Bitcoin Events UK.

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And he goes to events, conferences, meetups,

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and he always has a bunch of books to sell

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and other bits and pieces, other merch.

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And he had this book at the Bristol meetup.

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And I walked over, I'm like, where the hell did you get that?

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Because I've been trying to get a copy.

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But if I order it off Amazon, it's like so ridiculously expensive.

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and he was selling it for 30 bucks in sats which i obviously paid immediately and got the book

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and i got to tell paul backstage the story of how simon come across these books he found somehow i

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can't remember the exact story but he got in contact with or was put in touch with somebody

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in the uk did the guy reached out he reached out yeah so you know the story do you

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it? Well, loosely, I probably don't remember it properly. But yeah, like, there's this big

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misconception that the Silk Road was only used for drugs. That's absolutely not the case. The Silk

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Road was a marketplace of merchants who refused to get paid in fiat. They were highly ethical people

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that wanted to do commerce. Well, stop. That was the deal. And so a bunch of different stuff got

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sold, especially books, huge amount of books, actually. And so there was this one guy who was

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the seller of books on the Silk Road. And then eventually when the Silk Road got raided, he was

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left with a stockpile of books in his closet. And he then reached out to Simon and was like,

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hey, you're selling Bitcoin books. I have a bunch of books that I'm not going to sell.

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I'm leaving the country anyway. Can you please take them off my hands? And Simon was like, yeah,

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for sure let's do that and and so i i a couple hundred um books were were now like literally

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the same books that were sold on the silk road uh and they are a rare breed a very uh and very

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much nft very scarce i uh i hope to meet paul again one day and i'll get him to sign it uh

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yeah and and thanks to simon because yeah the guy got in touch and uh sure enough he's yeah

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boxes and boxes of

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that book. So Simon

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helps him out every now and then and when he

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sells out he just gets back in contact and he

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takes them off his hands. So

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yeah, that was a cool thing and I'm

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glad Paul got to learn that story

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first hand. And you know like

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the book is

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amazing so I'll just shill it a bit more

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in context to what we just spoke about but

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the book is about

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based on a true story

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of a group of cypherpunks in the end of the

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1990s who went

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to Costa Rica, basically bribed themselves into an embassy to have an office there and

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build the first anonymous marketplace, anonymous digital cash, anonymous company registration

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system, anonymous future markets.

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They went radical.

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It was beautiful.

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And then eventually Paul wrote the book, first anonymously, about the happenings there, still

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fictionalized, but the gist of it was there.

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And this book, then for sure, I know that it inspired Ross Ulbricht to create The Silk

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Road, and that's in part why it was sold there.

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It also inspired Eric Sirian from Fediment to work on Fediment, and it inspired me to

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do my work on Wasabi.

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And I have this deep feeling that either Satoshi read this book and he got inspired to do Bitcoin, or what might be even more likely that Satoshi is a character in that book.

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And he was around in Costa Rica or at least donated to those guys to do what they did.

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So that last part, big speculation, but somehow I feel that that would be a great story.

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So it's probably true.

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Well, it was published in 07, right?

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So, yeah.

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Was it 07? No, I think it was earlier.

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I think this print is from 07.

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I've just seen copyright here, 07, at the front.

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Yeah, but this is not the first edition, right?

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The first editions were only distributed in Cyberspace.

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And I think that was 2002.

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Am I misremembering that now?

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Yeah, and then in 2007, Paul thought that, okay, now enough time has elapsed that I can actually publish this under my real name, right, via the existing books that he already published, etc. And I think that step was taken in 2007.

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All right, yeah. Well, Satoshi could definitely have read it or definitely been part of that group of people. Who knows? The mystery.

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yes so

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you quickly mentioned wasabi there

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I mean you

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you moved away from that what was it now

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a year ago 18 months

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two years

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almost two and a half by now

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time flies

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time flies

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but you know like

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over 10 years ago

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or so I like set myself

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to the quest of fixing the money

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And of course, Bitcoin was the obvious mechanism to do that.

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And to get to our earlier point, the biggest problem in Bitcoin, the first feedback on the first email that Satoshi got was this doesn't scale because it is not private.

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And if everyone has to verify everyone else's transaction, that's first of all stupid from a privacy point of view.

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But also, obviously, this cannot scale.

236
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And that was the biggest criticism of Bitcoin.

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And, you know, I was early in the Lightning Network and realized that, yes, this is the way that we can scale Bitcoin to the next level. Not perfect yet, but definitely to the next level. And Lightning Network has absolutely achieved that. But what was still undressed was the privacy aspect.

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And we had good custodial privacy solutions in the past, but we didn't have them in the Bitcoin ethos of it's your money, nobody can take it away from you.

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The self-custody aspect of it.

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And so we really needed to solve that.

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And then a while ago, I realized we have solved those problems.

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Like Bitcoin can scale now already to a billion people in self-custody to 100 billion people, including AI agents, if we're talking about custody like e-cash, etc.

243
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So scalability is solved.

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And I do think that with Wasabi, especially Wasabi 2.0, we have solved the blockchain level privacy.

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Like you can make anonymous Bitcoin transactions now.

246
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You can receive Bitcoin anonymously.

247
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You can hold it anonymously and spend it anonymously.

248
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Like those, it's a solved problem.

249
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What was still unsolved three years ago or so was that aspect of will those privacy solutions stick around in the long run?

250
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And, well, it got really close of not being solved.

251
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But by this point, I think it is solved.

252
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Like Wasabi is now quite unstoppable.

253
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There's numerous different coordinators.

254
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There's an anonymous announcement mechanism for coordinators, ways to anonymously discover and connect to coordinators.

255
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And that was the one big thing that was still left.

256
00:20:44,453 --> 00:20:55,025
Now you can get block filters and synchronize your Wasabi wallet without having a back The back that we were running back in the days

257
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is completely gone, right?

258
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And the wallet survived.

259
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It survived like a catastrophic

260
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or kind of collapse of support almost, so to say.

261
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And it's still around and has larger volumes than ever before.

262
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and that kind of proves that no the the tech will survive and so i concluded the the project as

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solved and could finally move on with my life because i worked like for seven years on wasabi

264
00:21:23,405 --> 00:21:30,165
you know after some time you kind of want to have a change of scenery and now i'm i'm fixing

265
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that's that's my other big next project like we need unstoppable anonymous communications online

266
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and communications extremely broadly defined,

267
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not just chat apps, not just short posts or blog posts

268
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or video calls, marketplaces, gaming, all of this stuff.

269
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We need to have a private, unstoppable internet.

270
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And Nostra is the best bet to get us there.

271
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And the biggest issue of Nostra was the privacy.

272
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And it didn't have encryption for the longest time.

273
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Then when encryption was introduced, it was completely broken.

274
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and by now we have a perfect encryption mechanism for it.

275
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And now it's just about putting a little bit of paint on it

276
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and fine-tuning it a bit.

277
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And so that's my current passion.

278
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And it seems like it won't even be that hard of a problem.

279
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Like the solution was way easier than anticipated.

280
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Okay, we'll get into it.

281
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Lauren, I know we've already got too geeky and boring for you.

282
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Yeah, a little bit.

283
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Do you want to say goodbye to me?

284
00:22:32,465 --> 00:22:35,285
yeah alright thank you so much

285
00:22:35,285 --> 00:22:37,325
for answering my question and I hope you have a great

286
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time on the podcast

287
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yes thank you very much

288
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I'm looking forward to your solo podcast one day

289
00:22:43,205 --> 00:22:44,845
like maybe your dad can

290
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ask the first question

291
00:22:46,145 --> 00:22:48,745
but one question of Laura is not enough

292
00:22:48,745 --> 00:22:50,825
you gotta flip the roles

293
00:22:50,825 --> 00:22:53,205
that's actually gonna be

294
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really funny if that happens

295
00:22:54,405 --> 00:22:55,565
well you make it happen

296
00:22:55,565 --> 00:22:59,005
you know I'm just here to make myself obsolete

297
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yeah

298
00:23:00,565 --> 00:23:01,185
exactly

299
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let's see what the future holds all right thank you bye have a good one good night

300
00:23:07,245 --> 00:23:16,005
so uh that brings us nicely to white noise yes let's talk about that and then i want to talk

301
00:23:16,005 --> 00:23:23,005
about the uh the article you wrote uh the um anarcho-capitalist nostor being you know and

302
00:23:23,005 --> 00:23:29,485
you went full rothbard analogies and deep dives into that which i found really really fascinating

303
00:23:29,485 --> 00:23:35,685
and loved reading so but let's let's talk about white noise first and then we'll get into the uh

304
00:23:35,685 --> 00:23:42,345
the article yeah i guess let's let's start with a little bit of a primer on on noster just so that

305
00:23:42,345 --> 00:23:47,865
we're all on the same playing field that is a very very good very good idea for those listening that

306
00:23:47,865 --> 00:23:57,805
are noster noobs or noster hesitant or noster you know maybe they've been once and they're like

307
00:23:57,805 --> 00:24:04,165
yeah whatever like this is weird and left again we have that happening right uh people come and they

308
00:24:04,165 --> 00:24:14,145
go um yeah let's get people let's give them a NOSTA 101 so so NOSTA starts quite similar to

309
00:24:14,145 --> 00:24:21,065
Bitcoin with you creating and declaring your own identity right with Bitcoin you don't have to go

310
00:24:21,065 --> 00:24:27,065
to a bank dear bank manager can I please have an account no you just go into your bathroom you flip

311
00:24:27,065 --> 00:24:32,505
a coin, you do some math, and voila, you have your address, your private key and your

312
00:24:32,505 --> 00:24:34,005
address, and you can receive and send money.

313
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No need to ask for any permission whatsoever.

314
00:24:37,625 --> 00:24:41,065
And that's, of course, a geniusly beautiful idea of Bitcoin.

315
00:24:41,625 --> 00:24:44,505
And we absolutely need that for everything else in our life as well.

316
00:24:45,165 --> 00:24:50,045
And so that's where Noster comes in, where you declare your own identity, right?

317
00:24:50,065 --> 00:24:52,845
You don't ask for the permission to please get an account.

318
00:24:53,525 --> 00:24:55,385
You declare it yourself, right?

319
00:24:55,385 --> 00:25:05,865
It's a self-sovereign, illoidal title to your identity, so to say, where you flip a coin, you get a private key, and then you write an event that says, my username is this.

320
00:25:06,285 --> 00:25:07,825
My profile picture is this.

321
00:25:08,145 --> 00:25:09,405
My description is this.

322
00:25:09,625 --> 00:25:11,525
My lightning address is this.

323
00:25:12,165 --> 00:25:14,705
And after you declare this message, you sign it.

324
00:25:15,045 --> 00:25:17,965
You speak it into existence and you attest to it.

325
00:25:18,325 --> 00:25:19,805
Like a contract, right?

326
00:25:19,825 --> 00:25:22,185
Like the declaration of your own flag, so to say.

327
00:25:22,905 --> 00:25:25,565
And nobody can stop you from doing this.

328
00:25:26,025 --> 00:25:28,505
That's such a powerful idea, right?

329
00:25:28,545 --> 00:25:32,065
Where you're not waiting to be acknowledged by someone.

330
00:25:32,605 --> 00:25:33,485
You just do it.

331
00:25:33,945 --> 00:25:35,565
And that's extremely powerful.

332
00:25:36,325 --> 00:25:41,245
And you use cryptography such that now you have this event,

333
00:25:41,445 --> 00:25:44,125
which is just a text file, basically, JSON to be exact.

334
00:25:44,585 --> 00:25:46,685
And you sign it with your private key.

335
00:25:46,685 --> 00:26:11,225
And the cool thing is, now you have this atomic unit of information that is in it of itself useful. And that means you just need to get it to your friends somehow. And the way that we do that by default is by putting it on a server, such that other people can connect to the server and download all the messages that were signed by your public key, for example.

336
00:26:11,225 --> 00:26:15,685
and then your friends see exactly what you were up to.

337
00:26:16,305 --> 00:26:17,585
And of course, it sounds kind of weird

338
00:26:17,585 --> 00:26:20,025
that we're introducing servers back into the picture.

339
00:26:20,545 --> 00:26:22,525
Wouldn't it be better if it's fully peer-to-peer?

340
00:26:23,145 --> 00:26:25,565
But the core realization is that, first of all,

341
00:26:25,885 --> 00:26:27,565
peer-to-peer stuff is hard.

342
00:26:28,005 --> 00:26:29,505
It's really, really damn hard.

343
00:26:30,545 --> 00:26:33,145
And centralized things are much easier.

344
00:26:33,725 --> 00:26:37,065
And the cool thing is that we can remove trust

345
00:26:37,065 --> 00:26:38,845
in the central server, right?

346
00:26:38,885 --> 00:26:40,445
Like, first of all, we remove the trust

347
00:26:40,445 --> 00:26:41,945
that the server gives you an identity.

348
00:26:42,605 --> 00:26:43,665
The server doesn't give you an identity.

349
00:26:44,065 --> 00:26:45,325
You declared your identity.

350
00:26:46,145 --> 00:26:49,125
And the server cannot change the messages that you wrote

351
00:26:49,125 --> 00:26:50,545
because you signed them.

352
00:26:51,365 --> 00:26:54,385
And so if you would change one little bit,

353
00:26:54,445 --> 00:26:56,045
then it would be an invalid signature

354
00:26:56,045 --> 00:26:58,485
and nobody would trust that this is actually what you wrote.

355
00:26:59,505 --> 00:27:03,185
And also then, because we no longer have to trust the server,

356
00:27:03,765 --> 00:27:05,985
we can just use five servers at the same time

357
00:27:05,985 --> 00:27:08,785
or 100 servers at the same time.

358
00:27:08,785 --> 00:27:22,285
You can use company servers, you can use paid servers, you can use servers of your friends, you can run your own server for like a dollar a month or something. And then we've removed the trust that the server can shut you down.

359
00:27:23,045 --> 00:27:25,545
Any one server operator can delete your events.

360
00:27:25,885 --> 00:27:27,165
Yes, it's just his computer.

361
00:27:27,945 --> 00:27:37,185
But ultimately, because you can spread your messages far and wide, if any server censors you, there's still 99 others that are around there.

362
00:27:38,065 --> 00:27:42,285
And then the big question is, what do we even write in those messages?

363
00:27:42,925 --> 00:27:45,085
And that's where another freedom of Nostra comes in.

364
00:27:45,605 --> 00:27:46,965
You can write whatever you want.

365
00:27:46,965 --> 00:27:51,505
and you can create a schema, so to say,

366
00:27:51,645 --> 00:27:54,685
or like a way to interpret this type of message.

367
00:27:55,245 --> 00:27:57,825
So we've already created a bunch of these different schemas.

368
00:27:57,925 --> 00:28:00,685
There's like short form posts like Twitter or X.

369
00:28:01,005 --> 00:28:02,385
There's long form blog posts,

370
00:28:02,385 --> 00:28:03,545
like the one that you just mentioned

371
00:28:03,545 --> 00:28:04,585
that I wrote a while ago.

372
00:28:05,145 --> 00:28:09,385
Then we have pictures, videos, app releases,

373
00:28:10,505 --> 00:28:14,385
chess moves, really whatever you want.

374
00:28:14,385 --> 00:28:28,025
You can either use a schema that someone else already developed and then just get all of the existing communication that happened in this particular way and display it to your users.

375
00:28:28,345 --> 00:28:36,725
Or if the exact thing that you wanted to do is not yet out there, you just invent it and standardize it and publish that.

376
00:28:37,385 --> 00:28:43,285
And voila, you have a new way of using the system to get more information out.

377
00:28:44,045 --> 00:28:45,945
And so that's the gist of Noster.

378
00:28:46,285 --> 00:28:51,685
So it's the freedom to create your own identity, the freedom to sign the messages such that nobody can tamper it with,

379
00:28:52,005 --> 00:28:56,945
the freedom to run your own relay such that you can pass along the messages of yourself and your friends,

380
00:28:57,185 --> 00:29:01,945
and the freedom to define exactly how these messages ought to be written and interpreted.

381
00:29:02,445 --> 00:29:06,705
And with these four fundamental freedoms, we can absolutely fix the Internet.

382
00:29:07,285 --> 00:29:08,785
This was everything we needed.

383
00:29:09,145 --> 00:29:12,365
We have now in our toolbox to make sure that we have an internet

384
00:29:12,365 --> 00:29:14,505
that is way better than anything that came before.

385
00:29:16,125 --> 00:29:16,645
Right.

386
00:29:17,125 --> 00:29:19,325
So white noise.

387
00:29:19,625 --> 00:29:20,425
What's white noise?

388
00:29:20,665 --> 00:29:24,085
What's the thing that you're trying to solve at the moment

389
00:29:24,085 --> 00:29:27,165
and getting you so bullish about the future?

390
00:29:28,925 --> 00:29:32,405
Yeah, so the problem with that original vision of Noster

391
00:29:32,405 --> 00:29:34,625
was that everything was public.

392
00:29:34,625 --> 00:29:40,225
The schemas that were used were all about public things that you wanted the entire world to know.

393
00:29:40,865 --> 00:29:43,105
And as we said earlier, that's perfectly fine.

394
00:29:43,265 --> 00:29:47,865
It's important that we spread our message and our truth as far and wide as possible.

395
00:29:48,425 --> 00:29:52,725
And by simply making it readable from anyone who wants to is the best way of doing that.

396
00:29:53,185 --> 00:29:59,625
But obviously, only a tiny subset of human existence is actually one where you share something with the entire world.

397
00:29:59,625 --> 00:30:06,785
The vast majority, you only share with one person or with, first of all, the vast majority, you just share with yourself.

398
00:30:07,425 --> 00:30:09,745
Most of the thoughts you have never leave your mouth.

399
00:30:10,385 --> 00:30:13,785
So it would be good to have a way that only you can read the messages that you wrote.

400
00:30:14,405 --> 00:30:19,525
Then the second thing is we talk with our loved ones, our kids, whatever, but those are two people talking.

401
00:30:20,025 --> 00:30:21,705
So we need to figure that out as well.

402
00:30:21,705 --> 00:30:34,945
And then we have a group of people, a company, an organization, a project, 10 guys getting together to build something that will change the world. And they don't want to announce it just yet because that would fuck up the whole project.

403
00:30:35,645 --> 00:30:42,005
This is an even more important part than the entire public internet, so to say.

404
00:30:42,625 --> 00:30:43,825
And we need to do that.

405
00:30:44,385 --> 00:30:48,945
And there were a couple different approaches to do this throughout the history of Noster.

406
00:30:49,945 --> 00:30:58,605
And there were some horrible mistakes made and many bugs written and many broken systems deployed.

407
00:30:58,605 --> 00:31:07,225
And ultimately, the main problem was that so we can encrypt messages such that only someone with the private key can read the message.

408
00:31:07,605 --> 00:31:09,465
And that's very powerful.

409
00:31:10,325 --> 00:31:26,818
However it difficult to do that at scale What if you want to send a message to 100 people You could go ahead and encrypt one message to the first pub key then to the second pub key to the third pub key and so on

410
00:31:26,818 --> 00:31:38,318
But then you need to encrypt 100 messages, and then you need to upload 100 messages, and your relay needs to store 100 messages for every one message that you actually want to send.

411
00:31:38,318 --> 00:31:45,378
and then that obviously doesn't really scale and this by the way is how signal works right in signal

412
00:31:45,378 --> 00:31:52,818
if you have a group chat you actually are sending one message for each person and that is just not

413
00:31:52,818 --> 00:31:58,398
really that efficient um signal kind of gets away with it because they have a semi-trusted server in

414
00:31:58,398 --> 00:32:04,838
the middle that can help you with a lot of re-keying and re-encrypting things um so they

415
00:32:04,838 --> 00:32:10,738
made some centralization shortcuts to enable more scalable group communication. But it leads to

416
00:32:10,738 --> 00:32:16,778
downsides of, for example, if we're in a group, I can send one message to you and it will be a

417
00:32:16,778 --> 00:32:21,758
different message that I send to someone else. And you guys don't know that I told you that we'll

418
00:32:21,758 --> 00:32:27,458
meet at one o'clock and the other guy that will meet at five o'clock. And so you can lie selectively,

419
00:32:27,458 --> 00:32:29,018
so to say, in this group.

420
00:32:30,058 --> 00:32:33,038
And these are some of the issues that we have

421
00:32:33,038 --> 00:32:36,258
with kind of the traditional encryption schemes.

422
00:32:37,118 --> 00:32:40,798
And so one of the use cases that I really would like to have

423
00:32:40,798 --> 00:32:45,918
is I want to tell my friends where I will be in the next month,

424
00:32:46,018 --> 00:32:47,038
where I'm traveling to.

425
00:32:47,498 --> 00:32:49,378
But I certainly don't want to make that public

426
00:32:49,378 --> 00:32:50,518
because that's just dangerous.

427
00:32:50,998 --> 00:32:53,578
But I have a lot of friends that I would like to tell that with.

428
00:32:53,578 --> 00:33:05,058
And so how can we encrypt something to a group of 100, 1,000 people without the computer having to break a sweat or without us needing a trusted third-party server?

429
00:33:05,558 --> 00:33:17,418
And so we were hunting for a crypto system that allows us to do that, to make scalable group encryptions happen in a way that we can easily add a new person to the group.

430
00:33:17,718 --> 00:33:20,678
And even more importantly, remove someone from the group.

431
00:33:21,478 --> 00:33:23,198
That's actually the hard part.

432
00:33:23,198 --> 00:33:27,478
How do we kick someone out of our group for this encryption scheme?

433
00:33:28,258 --> 00:33:32,978
And thankfully, we found a beautiful system that works crazy well.

434
00:33:33,318 --> 00:33:47,578
It's a bit complex, which is its biggest downside, but it can scale to potentially hundreds of thousands or millions of people that we can now encrypt messages to with really high fidelity, high security, high scalability.

435
00:33:47,578 --> 00:33:55,198
and now we are we first of all standardized this right we we kind of created a new schema

436
00:33:55,198 --> 00:33:59,878
right this is what you have to do in order to encrypt your messages and this is how the final

437
00:33:59,878 --> 00:34:05,418
events should look like and that's the marmot protocol and so that's a protocol that any

438
00:34:05,418 --> 00:34:12,738
developer can use to now encrypt messages to a bunch of people basically and then ultimately

439
00:34:12,738 --> 00:34:15,118
now I finally get to your question

440
00:34:15,118 --> 00:34:16,418
of what is white noise

441
00:34:16,418 --> 00:34:19,038
white noise is an implementation of the

442
00:34:19,038 --> 00:34:20,998
Marmot protocol and if I say Marmot

443
00:34:20,998 --> 00:34:23,138
just think of encrypted Noster basically

444
00:34:23,138 --> 00:34:24,458
what are you saying?

445
00:34:24,898 --> 00:34:25,458
Marmot

446
00:34:25,458 --> 00:34:27,478
how do you spell it?

447
00:34:27,898 --> 00:34:29,718
M-A-R-M-O-T

448
00:34:29,718 --> 00:34:31,398
those cute

449
00:34:31,398 --> 00:34:35,338
like a beaver

450
00:34:35,338 --> 00:34:37,278
or something that lives in the mountains

451
00:34:37,278 --> 00:34:37,878
underground

452
00:34:37,878 --> 00:34:39,898
exactly

453
00:34:39,898 --> 00:34:41,678
so that's just the name

454
00:34:41,678 --> 00:34:44,158
The Marmot protocol, right?

455
00:34:44,978 --> 00:34:45,398
Exactly.

456
00:34:46,338 --> 00:34:49,378
And so white noise is an implementation of that protocol

457
00:34:49,378 --> 00:34:52,258
specifically for group chat messages.

458
00:34:52,778 --> 00:34:55,918
So think Signal, WhatsApp, Telegram, et cetera,

459
00:34:56,798 --> 00:35:01,758
but fully encrypted, scalable, hopefully.

460
00:35:02,038 --> 00:35:03,638
It's still very early in the development,

461
00:35:03,798 --> 00:35:05,418
so a lot of the claims that I'm making now

462
00:35:05,418 --> 00:35:07,458
will be true in two weeks

463
00:35:07,458 --> 00:35:10,378
when the developers do better and ship more code.

464
00:35:10,378 --> 00:35:36,198
But in theory, this will allow us to have encrypted groups of hundreds or thousands or more of people, very scalable, and in such a way that nobody in the outside of the group knows who is in the group, how many people are in the group, how old is the group, how many messages are being sent, what is the message, who is sending it, who has read it.

465
00:35:36,738 --> 00:35:38,158
Nobody will know this.

466
00:35:38,618 --> 00:35:40,258
And it will be completely unstoppable.

467
00:35:40,378 --> 00:35:46,958
This will live on many different servers, and a group can rotate NOSTA relays if needed.

468
00:35:47,418 --> 00:35:52,618
So if any relay starts to censor your group, you just switch to a different relay.

469
00:35:53,218 --> 00:35:58,938
And censorship itself will be extremely unlikely because we've built privacy at the very base

470
00:35:58,938 --> 00:35:59,138
lane.

471
00:35:59,518 --> 00:36:04,718
And as I said earlier, if you're private, you cannot be censored because nobody knows

472
00:36:04,718 --> 00:36:06,298
who is in the group, etc.

473
00:36:06,298 --> 00:36:09,598
So they wouldn't even know which group to censor.

474
00:36:10,378 --> 00:36:13,618
And so I'm extremely, extremely bullish on this.

475
00:36:14,518 --> 00:36:17,898
Not even that much for the chat messages, even though that's super important,

476
00:36:18,478 --> 00:36:21,118
but especially for all of the other things that we can build

477
00:36:21,118 --> 00:36:24,658
now with a private encrypted Noster that only your friends can read.

478
00:36:26,658 --> 00:36:27,338
All right.

479
00:36:27,458 --> 00:36:30,558
So just to try and unpack this a little bit,

480
00:36:30,558 --> 00:36:36,418
would an analogy, a bad analogy, be like sending an email

481
00:36:36,418 --> 00:36:41,198
and filling in a bunch of names in the BCC bar.

482
00:36:41,818 --> 00:36:47,338
So the 100 people that received that email know it came from you

483
00:36:47,338 --> 00:36:53,018
and they know there's 99 others, but they don't know who the 99 others are?

484
00:36:53,018 --> 00:36:57,838
Or would they just not know at all how many people are in the group?

485
00:36:59,938 --> 00:37:04,598
The way that Marmot works is that everyone in the group

486
00:37:04,598 --> 00:37:06,418
can authenticate the other people.

487
00:37:07,038 --> 00:37:08,498
You have cryptographic guarantee

488
00:37:08,498 --> 00:37:11,518
that this message came from Daniel,

489
00:37:11,758 --> 00:37:17,258
which means impersonation,

490
00:37:17,818 --> 00:37:20,838
like AI, fake messages,

491
00:37:21,318 --> 00:37:25,538
or even videos will be prevented in this way.

492
00:37:26,158 --> 00:37:28,158
So we're using a system

493
00:37:28,158 --> 00:37:29,838
that is perfectly authenticatable,

494
00:37:30,358 --> 00:37:31,838
which means it's not deniable.

495
00:37:32,758 --> 00:37:34,438
This is actually one interesting thing

496
00:37:34,438 --> 00:37:40,678
with the way that Signal works, if I send you a chat message, you cannot prove to some other person

497
00:37:40,678 --> 00:37:47,178
that I was the one who sent the message. So Signal is fully deniable, which is also an important part

498
00:37:47,178 --> 00:37:54,158
to have. But this unfortunately doesn't really work at a scalable group level.

499
00:37:55,978 --> 00:38:01,178
Cryptographic details for why that is the case. But ultimately, with Nostar or MarMet,

500
00:38:01,178 --> 00:38:08,298
because we use signatures, it is perfectly verifiable, but not deniable. So you know

501
00:38:08,298 --> 00:38:14,778
absolutely who is in the group, and you know exactly who has sent the message. But an outside

502
00:38:14,778 --> 00:38:20,418
observer does not. It's kind of like you're writing an email with a bunch of people in CC,

503
00:38:21,018 --> 00:38:27,738
but the server administrator has no idea whom you just messaged. So the provider of your email,

504
00:38:27,738 --> 00:38:28,898
Gmail, for example.

505
00:38:29,318 --> 00:38:31,738
I'd imagine that you could write emails to a bunch of people,

506
00:38:32,078 --> 00:38:36,838
but Gmail has no idea that you even exist or who is in the group

507
00:38:36,838 --> 00:38:39,798
or how many people are in the group or who exactly wrote this.

508
00:38:42,278 --> 00:38:42,798
Yeah.

509
00:38:43,638 --> 00:38:44,158
Right.

510
00:38:46,398 --> 00:38:48,118
Scalable group encryption.

511
00:38:48,338 --> 00:38:48,978
Is that what you said?

512
00:38:50,418 --> 00:38:50,898
Exactly.

513
00:38:51,378 --> 00:38:51,538
Yeah.

514
00:38:54,238 --> 00:38:57,718
That's definitely going to get people's minds humming away.

515
00:38:57,738 --> 00:39:04,418
Did this all come to you?

516
00:39:05,598 --> 00:39:07,738
Am I right in thinking you were at the SEC?

517
00:39:09,618 --> 00:39:12,878
Not the Securities Exchange Commission.

518
00:39:13,378 --> 00:39:18,498
The sovereign engineering cohort on Madeira.

519
00:39:18,498 --> 00:39:22,258
Is this where you were sharpening your tools on this?

520
00:39:24,178 --> 00:39:27,058
Actually, it started a bit earlier than that.

521
00:39:27,058 --> 00:39:30,518
and finally in the UK, in Bedford, of all places.

522
00:39:31,778 --> 00:39:33,378
Pete turned around and said,

523
00:39:33,498 --> 00:39:35,778
you know what, Max, we need scalable group encryption.

524
00:39:36,038 --> 00:39:37,358
That's exactly what we need.

525
00:39:39,918 --> 00:39:41,018
Almost, no.

526
00:39:41,578 --> 00:39:44,598
Pete invited a bunch of people to come to his shitty hometown.

527
00:39:46,318 --> 00:39:50,478
There I sat down with Jeff,

528
00:39:50,998 --> 00:39:53,138
the co-founder of the project, basically.

529
00:39:53,138 --> 00:40:02,318
and he thought or like a bunch of people on Nostra were saying hey we really should improve

530
00:40:02,318 --> 00:40:07,058
our encryption scheme and everyone was just saying yeah like someone should do something about this

531
00:40:07,058 --> 00:40:12,878
and then Jeff was finally okay we've I've said someone too many times apparently it is me now

532
00:40:12,878 --> 00:40:20,358
and and so he started thinking about this more structurally and I had the exact same

533
00:40:20,358 --> 00:40:25,078
thought process a couple months before and was like, okay, we really need to fix this.

534
00:40:26,838 --> 00:40:32,498
So he went down one of the OG encryption protocols.

535
00:40:32,678 --> 00:40:34,318
It's called Off the Record or OTR.

536
00:40:35,078 --> 00:40:39,578
And he thought, okay, how can we use this protocol on top of Nostr?

537
00:40:40,278 --> 00:40:46,778
And I, in the meantime, because for Wasabi Wallet, Wasabi 2.0, we actually used the cryptography

538
00:40:46,778 --> 00:40:48,738
that was first introduced in the signal paper.

539
00:40:48,738 --> 00:40:57,178
And so the cryptography that secures your group messages, we use the same thing to secure your communication with the CoinJoin coordination server, basically.

540
00:40:57,718 --> 00:41:00,338
Specifically, keyed verified anonymous credentials.

541
00:41:00,778 --> 00:41:01,858
Beautiful, beautiful crypto.

542
00:41:02,978 --> 00:41:07,758
And so I already read this paper years before and was like, this is such a cool paper.

543
00:41:08,358 --> 00:41:12,538
It's an incredibly genius way of doing crypto magic.

544
00:41:12,998 --> 00:41:16,078
And I love Signal for as long as it came out.

545
00:41:16,078 --> 00:41:24,678
um and and so i wanted to do signal on top of of nostr uh and and so when jeff came to me like hey

546
00:41:24,678 --> 00:41:29,078
what do you know about off the record and i want to do private communication on nostr i was like

547
00:41:29,078 --> 00:41:33,878
well that's awesome i want that too but i think we should use the signal paper that's much more

548
00:41:33,878 --> 00:41:39,938
advanced than the older of the record and then in bedford there was this hackathon area and we

549
00:41:39,971 --> 00:41:45,671
just sat down for like three hours or something and nerded out about how we could do this.

550
00:41:46,111 --> 00:41:48,431
And we were like, oh, this might actually work.

551
00:41:49,331 --> 00:41:53,791
And so after the conference, we go our separate ways and we both keep thinking about it.

552
00:41:54,151 --> 00:41:58,611
And eventually Jeff writes me saying that, hey, I found something that's even better

553
00:41:58,611 --> 00:41:59,131
than Signal.

554
00:41:59,751 --> 00:42:02,351
It's called the messaging layer security protocol.

555
00:42:03,131 --> 00:42:07,231
And it is contrary to Signal, designed from the ground up.

556
00:42:07,231 --> 00:42:13,651
or no actually before that we we did make a nip a nostril implementation possibility

557
00:42:13,651 --> 00:42:19,631
that says hey look here is how we could use the signal paper to do communication on nostril

558
00:42:19,631 --> 00:42:24,871
and then the one of the early questions we had was okay but does this work for groups

559
00:42:24,871 --> 00:42:30,491
and we were like well no not really and then everyone was like well then it isn't interesting

560
00:42:30,491 --> 00:42:35,831
we need something that works for groups right so we're like okay is that what you were getting

561
00:42:35,831 --> 00:42:52,851
Exactly. That was the main feedback of, no, I want to talk to a group of friends, not just one of them. And those hacks that Signal does to make the two-person chats behave like a group don't really work in Noster's decentralized architecture, are very, very difficult.

562
00:42:53,811 --> 00:43:00,131
And so we went back to the drawing board and then eventually it was like, hey, I found this thing called the messaging layer security protocol.

563
00:43:00,131 --> 00:43:07,771
It is very similar to Signal, but it is from the ground up, first of all, designed as a protocol.

564
00:43:08,491 --> 00:43:12,811
Like the Signal protocol is kind of a bit just one implementation that does it.

565
00:43:12,871 --> 00:43:14,711
It's not perfectly specced out.

566
00:43:16,171 --> 00:43:17,691
And it works.

567
00:43:17,871 --> 00:43:19,611
It is designed to work for groups.

568
00:43:20,271 --> 00:43:22,971
That was their main goal is to make it work for groups.

569
00:43:23,851 --> 00:43:34,631
And what MLS gives you is basically a way that a group of people can come up with a single shared key that they can encrypt their messages to.

570
00:43:35,051 --> 00:43:39,811
And a way to add a member to this group and to remove a member of this group.

571
00:43:39,811 --> 00:43:44,851
Like how can we come up with a new secret that everyone but Bob knows about?

572
00:43:45,931 --> 00:43:48,911
And that is the super difficult part.

573
00:43:49,611 --> 00:43:53,151
What this system, though, excludes are two things.

574
00:43:53,151 --> 00:43:56,431
And it turns out that Nostra is perfect for both of these things.

575
00:43:56,951 --> 00:44:03,871
First, it excludes the authentication service, which is basically what is even a user account in the first place.

576
00:44:04,571 --> 00:44:13,491
They designed it in a way that it can be used by Google, where the authentication service is the Google server that tells you, yes, this is your username, this is your password.

577
00:44:13,491 --> 00:44:19,831
but it doesn't like it's kind of okay google handles this for us that's basically what the

578
00:44:19,831 --> 00:44:23,871
MLS people said and we're like well wait a second we don't need to use google for that

579
00:44:23,871 --> 00:44:30,251
we can just use a key right we already have Noster keys users are their own authentication service

580
00:44:30,251 --> 00:44:36,291
right the user declares for himself this is my username so that's a perfect fit Noster solves

581
00:44:36,291 --> 00:44:41,631
this one critical thing that MLS left unaddressed we've already solved it over here we can just put

582
00:44:41,631 --> 00:44:46,691
it in the box and it will work. And the second thing that it left unaddressed was the message

583
00:44:46,691 --> 00:44:52,571
delivery. Again, thinking of, okay, we just put our messages on the Google server and then,

584
00:44:52,671 --> 00:44:56,871
you know, message will be delivered perfectly fine as long as they're encrypted, right?

585
00:44:57,371 --> 00:45:00,711
And we're like, well, that's cool, but we don't just want to have one server. We want to have

586
00:45:00,711 --> 00:45:05,951
10 different servers at the same time. And again, turns out NOSTA has a perfect solution for this.

587
00:45:05,951 --> 00:45:09,991
We already have, I don't know, 5,000 NOSTA relays on the internet.

588
00:45:10,411 --> 00:45:13,431
You can literally use any one of them to deliver your messages.

589
00:45:14,151 --> 00:45:18,111
And you can rotate them and use multiple and parallel and all this fancy stuff.

590
00:45:18,551 --> 00:45:25,491
So the two big problems that MLS left out of scope for their work was exactly what we were working on with NOSTA.

591
00:45:25,931 --> 00:45:29,011
And NOSTA left the whole encryption part out of scope.

592
00:45:29,011 --> 00:45:31,071
and so it was this match made in heaven

593
00:45:31,071 --> 00:45:33,511
where two completely independent teams

594
00:45:33,511 --> 00:45:34,671
worked on

595
00:45:34,671 --> 00:45:37,031
the two things that are perfectly

596
00:45:37,031 --> 00:45:39,011
complementary to each other

597
00:45:39,011 --> 00:45:41,191
and so that's why it turned out

598
00:45:41,191 --> 00:45:42,991
to be a huge success

599
00:45:42,991 --> 00:45:44,991
or at least in theory

600
00:45:44,991 --> 00:45:46,851
we just have to ship it and deploy it

601
00:45:46,851 --> 00:45:48,031
I was going to say

602
00:45:48,031 --> 00:45:50,231
when group chats on Nostar

603
00:45:50,231 --> 00:45:53,851
when do you

604
00:45:53,851 --> 00:45:55,151
envision this being

605
00:45:55,151 --> 00:45:57,191
shipped and people creating

606
00:45:57,191 --> 00:45:58,791
their groups and giving you feedback

607
00:45:58,791 --> 00:46:01,171
and messing around with it, trying to break it.

608
00:46:03,291 --> 00:46:03,771
Yeah.

609
00:46:04,431 --> 00:46:09,871
So, like, it's been almost two years since we started this whole journey,

610
00:46:10,171 --> 00:46:11,791
and we're still far from there.

611
00:46:12,111 --> 00:46:14,451
It took us, first of all, like half a year or so

612
00:46:14,451 --> 00:46:15,711
of running in the wrong direction.

613
00:46:17,091 --> 00:46:17,791
Then another year or so.

614
00:46:17,791 --> 00:46:19,331
Sorry, back to the original question.

615
00:46:19,551 --> 00:46:22,531
So post-Bedford, did this happen in Madeira?

616
00:46:22,631 --> 00:46:24,891
Did you have a team there, like at the SEC?

617
00:46:26,731 --> 00:46:27,171
Yes.

618
00:46:27,591 --> 00:46:27,811
Yeah.

619
00:46:27,811 --> 00:46:38,611
I know a lot of listeners, they love listening to stories about like, because it's been such a great success what Gigi and Pablo have set up.

620
00:46:38,791 --> 00:46:41,811
I don't think it gets enough applause.

621
00:46:42,211 --> 00:46:47,671
And especially, you know, it's part of the Free Madeira kind of initiative as well that Andre set up over there.

622
00:46:47,671 --> 00:46:54,611
So people, I'm sure they'd love your insights as somebody that has been, has benefited from it.

623
00:46:54,711 --> 00:46:55,911
What was the experience like?

624
00:46:55,911 --> 00:46:58,591
What does it look like and how can other people get involved?

625
00:47:00,631 --> 00:47:08,851
Yeah, the first software engineering cohort was probably, I mean, it sounds a bit weird, but it was probably the best two months of my life.

626
00:47:08,851 --> 00:47:29,531
Like, it was insane. Like, the amount of high quality people that got together there, and the amount of literally groundbreaking shit that came out of there is unreal. Like, really, really, really unbelievable.

627
00:47:29,531 --> 00:47:34,611
And Marmot or White Noise was definitely there.

628
00:47:34,931 --> 00:47:44,131
So the way that software engineering works, basically, was talk, build, demo, ship, basically.

629
00:47:44,371 --> 00:47:45,591
And that was the cycle.

630
00:47:46,011 --> 00:47:48,271
And you just keep repeating it over and over again.

631
00:47:48,451 --> 00:47:54,031
Throughout the week, you talk to everyone there about all the different cool problems that need to be solved.

632
00:47:54,571 --> 00:47:57,371
Then you sit down and you actually build it.

633
00:47:57,371 --> 00:48:07,711
And at the end of the week on Friday is demo day where you have to present what you did. And afterwards there's a big party and barbecue and a lot of fun.

634
00:48:07,711 --> 00:48:15,951
and so a lot of my presentations there were for one about coin joins and wasabi and all of the

635
00:48:15,951 --> 00:48:21,791
stuff that we were working on there i also presented a lot about anonymous ai and how we can do

636
00:48:22,451 --> 00:48:27,911
ai in a way that the server doesn't know the questions that you're answering asking or the

637
00:48:27,911 --> 00:48:33,091
answers that you're getting and then also i presented this idea of of mls and how we could

638
00:48:33,091 --> 00:48:39,211
use it for Noster and got a lot of amazing feedback from all the geniuses there and then at

639
00:48:39,211 --> 00:48:44,911
the end of SEC one was the the conference the the big uh free Madeira conference no big con Atlantis

640
00:48:44,911 --> 00:48:51,591
it was called and there Jeff was there again as well and there for another two or three weeks we

641
00:48:51,591 --> 00:48:57,751
we were sitting two weeks something like this we were sitting together and hatching out how we could

642
00:48:57,751 --> 00:48:59,271
actually make this work.

643
00:49:00,651 --> 00:49:03,731
So, yeah, a couple of other amazing projects

644
00:49:03,731 --> 00:49:04,891
came out of SEC1.

645
00:49:05,691 --> 00:49:07,911
One of my highlights is ZapStore.

646
00:49:08,591 --> 00:49:10,691
ZapStore is the only app store that works.

647
00:49:11,171 --> 00:49:13,811
If you're a developer and you want to ship an app

648
00:49:13,811 --> 00:49:16,891
to the public, every other app store will rape you

649
00:49:16,891 --> 00:49:20,531
and put an insane amount of problems in your way.

650
00:49:20,951 --> 00:49:22,131
You will have to have a company

651
00:49:22,131 --> 00:49:24,091
or give your government identities.

652
00:49:24,751 --> 00:49:26,831
It will take weeks to get an account set up.

653
00:49:26,831 --> 00:49:29,651
it will take weeks to publish the first version of your app,

654
00:49:30,011 --> 00:49:32,991
and you will never know how fast you can actually release something.

655
00:49:33,531 --> 00:49:35,671
Even if there are critical security vulnerabilities,

656
00:49:36,311 --> 00:49:39,711
they will be in your way of helping your users protect themselves.

657
00:49:40,111 --> 00:49:41,491
It's absolutely ridiculous.

658
00:49:42,571 --> 00:49:45,171
And so, by the way, when we launched White Noise for the first time,

659
00:49:45,831 --> 00:49:46,991
we didn't get a Google account.

660
00:49:47,091 --> 00:49:48,451
We still don't have a Google account.

661
00:49:49,831 --> 00:49:53,091
We didn't get the Apple developer account in time.

662
00:49:53,591 --> 00:49:56,091
Once we had it, it took over two and a half weeks

663
00:49:56,091 --> 00:49:58,911
for them to allow the first release to be published.

664
00:49:59,471 --> 00:50:01,791
So both of these systems completely failed us.

665
00:50:02,511 --> 00:50:04,551
And then the alternative was ZapStore

666
00:50:04,551 --> 00:50:07,771
and was literally one command of ZapStore publish,

667
00:50:08,111 --> 00:50:09,171
enter, done.

668
00:50:09,891 --> 00:50:11,471
We already had a NostroKey.

669
00:50:11,771 --> 00:50:13,191
People were already following it.

670
00:50:13,451 --> 00:50:16,551
We just signed an event and declared to the universe

671
00:50:16,551 --> 00:50:18,311
that this is our app.

672
00:50:18,591 --> 00:50:19,571
This is what it does.

673
00:50:19,971 --> 00:50:20,671
Here's the logo.

674
00:50:20,871 --> 00:50:22,151
Here's where you can download it.

675
00:50:22,591 --> 00:50:23,091
Have fun.

676
00:50:23,731 --> 00:50:25,991
And nobody could stop us from publishing that code.

677
00:50:26,091 --> 00:50:30,451
It was a liberating feeling, and that was part of SEC1.

678
00:50:31,271 --> 00:50:34,251
Another beautiful system that came out of that was Blossom,

679
00:50:34,251 --> 00:50:38,511
which is basically like Noster, but for pictures, videos,

680
00:50:39,951 --> 00:50:44,251
like PDF documents, app releases, any arbitrary file

681
00:50:44,991 --> 00:50:48,731
other than just text, which Noster is only text,

682
00:50:48,831 --> 00:50:51,711
and Blossom is basically the same, but for arbitrary data.

683
00:50:51,711 --> 00:50:57,591
these are just three of the amazing projects that came out of SEC1

684
00:50:57,591 --> 00:51:00,311
so it was a blast, it was really really cool

685
00:51:00,311 --> 00:51:06,051
and now I think SEC5 is over, SEC6 is about to start

686
00:51:06,051 --> 00:51:11,411
hopefully soon we will have more SECs in other places other than just Madeira

687
00:51:11,411 --> 00:51:12,851
there's a massive demand for that

688
00:51:12,851 --> 00:51:15,951
it will be cool, it will be really good

689
00:51:15,951 --> 00:51:19,711
we definitely need that, for sure

690
00:51:19,711 --> 00:51:25,791
more you can just build things right i mean that's yeah that's that's what we say in the space

691
00:51:25,791 --> 00:51:33,531
does this what you've what you've described does this also fix github as well does github need

692
00:51:33,531 --> 00:51:41,851
fixing github absolutely needs fixing and you know literally an hour ago i had a talk with the guy

693
00:51:41,851 --> 00:51:45,691
who's fixing it. He's working on NGIT, NosterGit.

694
00:51:45,691 --> 00:51:50,311
And he has made an insane amount of progress.

695
00:51:50,311 --> 00:51:54,451
I'm trying to remember if he was there in Madeira as well.

696
00:51:54,451 --> 00:51:58,451
Maybe not. But he is basically,

697
00:51:58,451 --> 00:52:11,937
he has a completely functioning replacement of GitHub that is still very rough and needs a lot more love before it actually works But now already some projects are exclusively using this

698
00:52:12,737 --> 00:52:18,457
And there are some SCC projects that don't have GitHub accounts anymore, right?

699
00:52:18,457 --> 00:52:23,737
Like no DNS, for example, is another cool thing that came out of SCC5, I think.

700
00:52:24,377 --> 00:52:28,477
It's basically replacing the domain.com with just PubKey.

701
00:52:29,197 --> 00:52:29,677
That's it.

702
00:52:29,957 --> 00:52:39,697
And so you declare yourself of this is my pub key and this is the IP that I want you to connect to if you want to talk to me, basically.

703
00:52:40,137 --> 00:52:40,837
Beautiful thing.

704
00:52:41,177 --> 00:52:42,737
That project is only available on NGIT.

705
00:52:43,657 --> 00:52:51,757
So NGIT is the command line interface where developers say, okay, publish this code, make these changes to the code, etc.

706
00:52:52,137 --> 00:52:54,357
Download the code from my friends and so on.

707
00:52:54,357 --> 00:53:02,837
and you have there's a server implementation that basically combines a git server with a

708
00:53:02,837 --> 00:53:09,757
Noster Relay so git server is the server like github that stores your source code and helps

709
00:53:09,757 --> 00:53:16,337
other people download it so that they can install it or contribute to it and then it uses Noster

710
00:53:16,337 --> 00:53:23,717
Relays for all of the social stuff that github does like account creation of course and opening

711
00:53:23,717 --> 00:53:28,917
a pull request and having comments about how to review this change to the code, feature

712
00:53:28,917 --> 00:53:35,897
requests and so on, release packages, all of this stuff can absolutely be done on Nostar

713
00:53:35,897 --> 00:53:36,437
per se.

714
00:53:37,317 --> 00:53:39,757
So GitHub's days are absolutely numbered.

715
00:53:40,037 --> 00:53:47,537
It still takes a lot of effort and engineering to make our solution work at scale and work

716
00:53:47,537 --> 00:53:51,097
well without developers being frustrated that their tools don't work.

717
00:53:51,097 --> 00:53:58,537
so unfortunately white noise is not yet being developed on on ngit i would love that i suggested

718
00:53:58,537 --> 00:54:04,497
it but then the developers looked the way i see these things marrying up and you know forgive me

719
00:54:04,497 --> 00:54:12,817
i'm nowhere near like a developer you know not even close but what you explained to me about

720
00:54:12,817 --> 00:54:18,677
what you're working on with white noise that does that solve the problem of like the bitcoin mailing

721
00:54:18,677 --> 00:54:26,237
list and all of the devs putting up their pull requests and ideas that their bips bitcoin

722
00:54:26,237 --> 00:54:33,917
improvement proposals onto github because you don't know some people could just spin up a

723
00:54:33,917 --> 00:54:39,677
an anonymous account and just spam the shit out of that right and i'm sure it's happened in the past

724
00:54:39,677 --> 00:54:47,777
and ai now could just keep spinning up bots and just spinning out bips just as an attack vector

725
00:54:47,777 --> 00:54:53,457
uh so it's actually happening right by the way like the bib repository is right now overwhelmed

726
00:54:53,457 --> 00:55:01,637
with ai slop basically it's a real thing so ai slop so pleb slop is greater than ai slop is what

727
00:55:01,637 --> 00:55:11,217
i'm hearing you say like definitely so it's interesting because you know what you're creating

728
00:55:11,217 --> 00:55:20,257
the only way you'd be able to sign any bib or pull request would be with your public key which is

729
00:55:20,257 --> 00:55:25,017
you know so you kind of like the web of trust that's being built out on on Nostra as well

730
00:55:25,017 --> 00:55:30,617
what you're discussing here with with NGIT and what you're doing with white noise

731
00:55:30,617 --> 00:55:37,217
and another thing you know 2025 we said before we hit record been the most bonkers year I think in

732
00:55:37,217 --> 00:55:39,917
all of the years I've been following Bitcoin,

733
00:55:40,657 --> 00:55:43,977
you know, with the Knotts versus Core debate,

734
00:55:43,977 --> 00:55:48,697
which obviously would,

735
00:55:49,477 --> 00:55:51,117
the way that was playing out on GitHub,

736
00:55:51,437 --> 00:55:54,837
the way people were being censored on GitHub

737
00:55:54,837 --> 00:55:57,457
by the people that had the so-called keys

738
00:55:57,457 --> 00:55:59,837
to be able to do that, to be able to censor,

739
00:56:00,797 --> 00:56:01,977
was really an interesting...

740
00:56:01,977 --> 00:56:10,837
thing so on on the centralized communications platform of twitter you're you've got one argument

741
00:56:10,837 --> 00:56:17,257
about filters don't work and you know you guys shut the hell up and then on the github you've

742
00:56:17,257 --> 00:56:22,157
got right no you're not allowed to say that i'm censoring you and i'm blocking you from taking part

743
00:56:22,157 --> 00:56:30,777
of the conversation anymore and as a as an observer you're like whoa like this is this is just nuts

744
00:56:30,777 --> 00:56:34,497
So would White Noise and NGIT have solved that?

745
00:56:36,577 --> 00:56:38,117
Short answer is yes.

746
00:56:38,677 --> 00:56:41,477
I think, or rather Noster solves this per se,

747
00:56:41,617 --> 00:56:45,377
because in Noster, nobody really can delete your content.

748
00:56:46,337 --> 00:56:50,757
Like a relay operator can delete your event from his own computer,

749
00:56:51,057 --> 00:56:54,797
but he cannot stop you from putting the same event on 100 other computers.

750
00:56:55,357 --> 00:56:58,377
So for all intents and purposes, nobody can delete your data, right?

751
00:56:58,377 --> 00:57:08,917
however you you can create an event that is a report event where you say hey i think that this

752
00:57:08,917 --> 00:57:14,737
is bad content i think it's spam and i would suggest that you don't look at it right and this

753
00:57:14,737 --> 00:57:20,097
event is signed with my private key and then your client could implement that whenever one of the

754
00:57:20,097 --> 00:57:26,637
people that you follow says that this is spam then hide it by default right could be that okay there

755
00:57:26,637 --> 00:57:32,697
is a button that you can reveal it still or not right but so this is a decentralized content

756
00:57:32,697 --> 00:57:40,157
moderation strategy and i think that works so much better right because there are i absolutely

757
00:57:40,157 --> 00:57:46,037
understand why core maintainers want to keep the working environment of developers clean

758
00:57:46,037 --> 00:57:55,397
like developer attention is incredibly valuable and you you you don't want developers to have to

759
00:57:55,397 --> 00:58:01,137
read all of the stuff, every AI slot that comes along, right? That would be ludicrous,

760
00:58:01,257 --> 00:58:06,917
no work would ever get done. So we need a way that someone can suggest to people,

761
00:58:07,257 --> 00:58:11,677
hey, I've read through this, and I would suggest you don't read it. It wasn't interesting,

762
00:58:11,797 --> 00:58:16,037
it wasn't valuable, it didn't add meaningfully to the conversation. And then the developer can

763
00:58:16,037 --> 00:58:22,757
save time, assuming that he trusts that person, the maintainer in this case, with being honest

764
00:58:22,757 --> 00:58:24,137
and forthright.

765
00:58:24,937 --> 00:58:26,877
Plus, we have a cryptographic proof

766
00:58:26,877 --> 00:58:28,997
that the maintainer said that this was spam.

767
00:58:29,557 --> 00:58:31,397
And so if it turns out that it was not spam,

768
00:58:31,937 --> 00:58:33,157
you could still read it and be like,

769
00:58:33,197 --> 00:58:36,337
hey, wait, this was important.

770
00:58:37,057 --> 00:58:39,257
He should not have told me that I shouldn't read this.

771
00:58:39,257 --> 00:58:41,597
So I will unfollow the moderator

772
00:58:41,597 --> 00:58:43,897
and just no longer listen to him.

773
00:58:44,437 --> 00:58:47,717
So nobody can prevent you from actually reading this content,

774
00:58:48,117 --> 00:58:50,637
but nobody can stop you from choosing

775
00:58:50,637 --> 00:58:53,157
which reports that you should see fit.

776
00:58:53,837 --> 00:58:55,637
And so in the NOSTA world,

777
00:58:56,217 --> 00:58:58,837
nobody could have deleted the comments that were deleted.

778
00:58:59,537 --> 00:59:01,317
Anyone could have still read them,

779
00:59:01,637 --> 00:59:05,477
but still the developers who trust the maintainers

780
00:59:05,477 --> 00:59:06,597
would not have seen them

781
00:59:06,597 --> 00:59:10,437
and could have stayed focused on whatever they were focused on.

782
00:59:10,957 --> 00:59:13,897
So the problem with centralized moderation

783
00:59:13,897 --> 00:59:15,977
is that values are subjective.

784
00:59:16,737 --> 00:59:20,037
And what you think is spam, I think, is an insightful comment.

785
00:59:20,637 --> 00:59:31,697
And if we are both forced to use one authoritative decision that was made from up high in some ivory tower, then neither of us will be happy in different situations.

786
00:59:32,357 --> 00:59:37,337
So Nostra gives that ability to push these decisions out to the edges.

787
00:59:38,057 --> 00:59:44,117
And that is an absolute game changer that I think would have solved so much drama on both sides.

788
00:59:45,517 --> 00:59:46,117
Interesting.

789
00:59:46,117 --> 00:59:58,957
how close do you think i mean are we years away because gradually then suddenly with all way all

790
00:59:58,957 --> 01:00:06,177
of these things uh and not only because it's new technology but because people are sticky right uh

791
01:00:06,957 --> 01:00:11,957
a great example is most people listening they've probably still got family members

792
01:00:11,957 --> 01:00:16,877
of the older generation still don't even know what whatsapp is let alone on the family group

793
01:00:16,877 --> 01:00:22,697
right uh you know i have a 92 year old grandmother doesn't even have a smartphone so you know she's

794
01:00:22,697 --> 01:00:33,277
out by uh by design um what um yeah how do you how critical is that to like the scaling of these

795
01:00:33,277 --> 01:00:40,417
things like the the the adoption the the stickiness to the the existing tech and to use this example

796
01:00:40,417 --> 01:00:47,877
the the devs that have been on github their whole careers are they just suddenly and still might not

797
01:00:47,877 --> 01:00:56,897
like some of them might still not even be on nostr let's be realistic yeah um it it is a big problem

798
01:00:56,897 --> 01:01:03,177
right like as i said earlier i tried uh not hard enough but i tried uh to get the white noise devs

799
01:01:03,177 --> 01:01:08,877
to start out with ngit right and then jeff of course knew about the project before and he's like

800
01:01:08,877 --> 01:01:13,397
okay, I'll give it a shot. I'll try it out. He played around for like an hour or two. And then

801
01:01:13,397 --> 01:01:20,477
he was like, nope, fuck that. We will use GitHub. And it was the right decision, to be honest,

802
01:01:20,477 --> 01:01:25,957
because if you have to fight with your tools for five hours before you can do an hour's worth of

803
01:01:25,957 --> 01:01:33,437
work, then you're just going to fail. It's as simple as that. And we cannot afford to lose that

804
01:01:33,437 --> 01:01:37,657
much time on tinkering with technology that simply isn't ready yet.

805
01:01:38,217 --> 01:01:44,657
Like this stuff is hard and it's very complex and it takes a long time to build it in the

806
01:01:44,657 --> 01:01:45,097
right way.

807
01:01:45,697 --> 01:01:48,477
So it will take time for sure.

808
01:01:49,157 --> 01:01:51,737
If you're a crazy psychopath, you can already use it.

809
01:01:51,917 --> 01:01:53,297
I know those psychopaths.

810
01:01:53,417 --> 01:01:53,957
I love them.

811
01:01:53,957 --> 01:02:03,257
And it is, however, not reasonable to expect that everyone will use it or like

812
01:02:03,257 --> 01:02:12,057
everyone from a rather large team. So by using an objectively worse technology in spirit or in

813
01:02:12,057 --> 01:02:17,977
ethos, but that is objectively better in productivity, it's hard to make that case of

814
01:02:17,977 --> 01:02:22,817
you should use the tool that makes you less productive, just because in theory, it's more

815
01:02:22,817 --> 01:02:37,123
liberty preserving or something like this That a hard thing to ask for The cool thing is the progress is quite astounding and the sad thing is

816
01:02:37,123 --> 01:02:39,403
there's like one dude working on Noster

817
01:02:39,403 --> 01:02:43,243
basically, I mean there's a couple others

818
01:02:43,243 --> 01:02:45,003
but there's one guy who's really pushing it

819
01:02:45,003 --> 01:02:46,583
and that's just ridiculous

820
01:02:46,583 --> 01:02:50,543
something as important as secure, unstoppable

821
01:02:50,543 --> 01:02:53,203
coordination of development of code

822
01:02:53,203 --> 01:03:00,163
especially FreedomTech code, especially Bitcoin, Noster, etc. code is super important.

823
01:03:00,163 --> 01:03:07,843
And we as a FreedomTech community is simply not organized enough to take it to the next level.

824
01:03:09,123 --> 01:03:11,783
I would even argue that the money is there.

825
01:03:12,003 --> 01:03:13,223
Money is not the issue.

826
01:03:13,923 --> 01:03:16,263
It's the people and the coordination.

827
01:03:16,783 --> 01:03:21,063
We could get unlimited budget for all intents and purposes.

828
01:03:21,223 --> 01:03:22,163
We have it at the moment.

829
01:03:22,163 --> 01:03:30,023
we just don't really have the skill to actually meaningfully deploy it so the problem is us like

830
01:03:30,023 --> 01:03:35,683
we we need to get more people involved we need to run way harder than we are currently running

831
01:03:35,683 --> 01:03:42,223
and and just do more work and do it fast and it's kind of scary that things are that slow

832
01:03:42,223 --> 01:03:49,963
when all of us know that what is online like if if we mess up and bitcoin fails noster fails etc

833
01:03:49,963 --> 01:03:54,123
Then humanity goes back into dark ages for millennia to come.

834
01:03:54,783 --> 01:04:03,183
We really have it in our hands to completely destroy this planet simply by not solving those problems fast enough.

835
01:04:04,083 --> 01:04:11,443
And yeah, that kind of drives me nuts that I feel like we're all just not doing enough.

836
01:04:11,443 --> 01:04:20,063
and and we all of us have to do so much more and and so much faster and so much better without

837
01:04:20,063 --> 01:04:27,663
fucking up and and introducing new problems and that's obviously a a crazy thing to ask for but

838
01:04:27,663 --> 01:04:33,703
we just need to do more and a lot of people listening might be falling into the trap of

839
01:04:33,703 --> 01:04:38,983
like well i'm not a dev so you know shrug my shoulders but from what i'm hearing you say is

840
01:04:38,983 --> 01:04:46,543
no we need project managers we need organizers we need different skill sets here we we this is what

841
01:04:46,543 --> 01:04:53,063
we need the devs i don't think are well correct me if i'm wrong but i think probably i had it i

842
01:04:53,063 --> 01:04:58,603
remember a conversation uh a couple of years ago i had in btc prague with uh with mike schmidt and i

843
01:04:58,603 --> 01:05:03,783
had him on the um the podcast afterwards and the the guys from btc pay server and they were talking

844
01:05:03,783 --> 01:05:08,343
about like funding for devs is there like we can get devs up to speed but then there's nothing for

845
01:05:08,343 --> 01:05:15,563
them to do and they go and get hired by xyz shitcoin and abz shitcoin and you know blah blah

846
01:05:15,563 --> 01:05:19,583
because they're the ones with the money and the venture capital behind them that can hire these

847
01:05:19,583 --> 01:05:26,503
guys and they can hire the marketing teams uh so am i right in this assumption that that's your

848
01:05:26,503 --> 01:05:33,523
rally cry it's not just for devs absolutely like i'm not a dev right i'm i'm an economist

849
01:05:33,523 --> 01:05:40,163
maybe a philosopher but certainly not a developer maybe a philosopher very philosophical thing to say

850
01:05:40,163 --> 01:05:50,363
no so so absolutely like we need everyone i mean we need more podcasters too right it's it's just

851
01:05:50,363 --> 01:05:55,983
like there's there's first of all not enough people really working on freedom tech in the

852
01:05:55,983 --> 01:06:02,383
very very broad definition that's everything but code included and then even those that work on

853
01:06:02,383 --> 01:06:09,863
freedom tech simply don't do enough like it i don't know i i have like this insane urge right

854
01:06:09,863 --> 01:06:16,823
now to just go way harder than i ever went before simply because time is running out like we cannot

855
01:06:16,823 --> 01:06:23,623
afford to be as slow as we are right now we we have to do better we have to do it at a at an

856
01:06:23,623 --> 01:06:29,463
insanely larger scale the fact that bitcoin is still so tiny right now the fact that the bitcoin

857
01:06:29,463 --> 01:06:36,223
economy is basically non-existent, what does the Bitcoin economy actually produce other

858
01:06:36,223 --> 01:06:39,243
than a little bit of soap and maybe some alpaca socks?

859
01:06:40,063 --> 01:06:45,003
Let's be honest, we should be producing spaceships at this point, and we just are not.

860
01:06:45,383 --> 01:06:51,563
In large part because we're lazy and not really doing enough, and especially because we don't

861
01:06:51,563 --> 01:06:52,583
have enough people involved.

862
01:06:52,583 --> 01:07:12,123
I don't know, you probably have a couple thousand people listening here that listen to a bunch of podcasts nonstop. But what are you guys doing with this information? Why do you think that you have the right to accumulate this information and then not act upon it?

863
01:07:12,123 --> 01:07:26,483
That is fundamentally a bad thing, right? To know that there is a problem and that it's a real serious problem and then to not go ahead and fix it with all the might that you have.

864
01:07:26,743 --> 01:07:41,563
And we don't need anywhere close to 50, 90% of humanity working on this project, but we need more than like 0.01%. You know, like give me 3% of the world population and we have this fixed in like two years.

865
01:07:41,563 --> 01:07:47,223
but we're far from three percent and that's just not acceptable anymore at this point

866
01:07:47,223 --> 01:07:55,943
i hear you i i definitely hear you and uh i hope people listening i mean they hear me say

867
01:07:55,943 --> 01:08:01,363
at the beginning or end of most shows like we need more podcasts more youtube videos more singers

868
01:08:01,363 --> 01:08:08,843
more writers more artists more philosophers like whatever it is more developers um yes and i

869
01:08:08,843 --> 01:08:14,383
I feel more people get released from their fiat drudgery.

870
01:08:14,583 --> 01:08:16,103
That's the big thing, right?

871
01:08:17,463 --> 01:08:20,423
Perhaps it's a cycle or two, and then they can find,

872
01:08:21,163 --> 01:08:24,683
starts out as a side hustle, but then it just gets too much

873
01:08:24,683 --> 01:08:27,223
and they release themselves from the fiat mines

874
01:08:27,223 --> 01:08:31,083
and then can unleash themselves into the Bitcoin world

875
01:08:31,083 --> 01:08:32,123
and where they see fit.

876
01:08:32,923 --> 01:08:37,363
And that is always so, that's the heartwarming moment

877
01:08:37,363 --> 01:08:43,363
when when you see those tweets like uh right that's it uh was it nathan day tweets the fiat

878
01:08:43,363 --> 01:08:49,443
mines have been mined and uh time to go like full retard into btc maps or something like you know

879
01:08:49,443 --> 01:08:54,923
or gamester or whatever he's working on that's just one example and you know organize and helping

880
01:08:54,923 --> 01:09:00,423
organize bitfest which was a huge success in in manchester and another thing meetups conferences

881
01:09:00,423 --> 01:09:09,703
like yeah the you know those in real life uh moments that you shared in madeira at sec one

882
01:09:09,703 --> 01:09:17,303
like you said life-changing stuff but so can a meet up with your nearest bitcoiner at the nearest

883
01:09:17,303 --> 01:09:23,123
coffee shop that you meet on club orange be a life-changing moment because you boom you're just

884
01:09:23,123 --> 01:09:30,343
connected with somebody on a level that you've never connected with anyone ever before like

885
01:09:30,343 --> 01:09:38,803
it's just incredible. All right. So philosopher, economist, let's switch to that area and your

886
01:09:38,803 --> 01:09:46,763
article because I really love the way you write and you write about Rothbard. And I think this is

887
01:09:46,763 --> 01:09:53,003
going to resonate with a lot of people. I'm going to read a little bit here and then ask you to

888
01:09:53,003 --> 01:10:00,323
delve into it a little bit more. Which one should I go with first? So Rothbard. Rothbard famously

889
01:10:00,323 --> 01:10:09,303
argued that all of the services commonly thought to require the state can be and have been supplied

890
01:10:09,303 --> 01:10:17,763
far more efficiently and certainly more morality morally excuse me by private persons critics

891
01:10:17,763 --> 01:10:26,463
critics countered that some services particularly communication networks require centralized

892
01:10:26,463 --> 01:10:33,603
coordination to function. NOSTA refutes this objection empirically. I love that.

893
01:10:34,923 --> 01:10:42,863
And then here we go. NOSTA demonstrates how voluntary association, property rights,

894
01:10:42,863 --> 01:10:50,023
and market competition can replace coercive central authorities in digital communications.

895
01:10:50,023 --> 01:10:56,823
This is precisely the domain where state corporate censorship has become most aggressive.

896
01:10:58,003 --> 01:10:59,583
Nobody can refute that.

897
01:10:59,903 --> 01:11:07,163
Like, look at Twitter now, X, whatever we want to call it, like the algorithm hell pit over there that it is.

898
01:11:07,503 --> 01:11:10,903
And at a push of a button, you can be cancelled.

899
01:11:11,223 --> 01:11:13,483
Everything you've ever posted can be wiped.

900
01:11:13,483 --> 01:11:20,143
It can be subpoenaed by the FBI, whoever, for whatever reason.

901
01:11:22,043 --> 01:11:24,883
And this is the state, you know, it's state corporate owned.

902
01:11:25,663 --> 01:11:28,483
I think everybody's probably aware of that as well.

903
01:11:29,103 --> 01:11:36,043
And NOSTA fixes this because cometh the moment, cometh the market.

904
01:11:39,403 --> 01:11:39,923
Yeah.

905
01:11:39,923 --> 01:11:49,103
No, there's the saying of who's going to build the roads, insinuating that the government is building the roads.

906
01:11:49,763 --> 01:11:52,203
Guess what? The government is not building the roads.

907
01:11:52,783 --> 01:12:02,343
The government is stealing money and funneling that through a bunch of money laundering and every politician taking a huge cut to eventually pay a private company to build the roads.

908
01:12:02,343 --> 01:12:13,383
Like, bureaucrats are way too incompetent to ever be put in charge with something as important as roads, let alone even more complex stuff.

909
01:12:13,543 --> 01:12:16,003
Like, they cannot pour a flat piece of concrete, right?

910
01:12:16,043 --> 01:12:17,763
They would fail with that utterly.

911
01:12:18,363 --> 01:12:19,123
And they are.

912
01:12:19,203 --> 01:12:20,183
That's why they're outsourcing.

913
01:12:21,043 --> 01:12:24,963
And this is fundamentally a problem of calculation.

914
01:12:25,623 --> 01:12:29,103
Like, a bureaucrat doesn't know what is the right problem to solve.

915
01:12:29,103 --> 01:12:36,203
and he cannot because if you're spending someone else's money on someone else's problems

916
01:12:36,203 --> 01:12:44,443
you don't give a shit you really don't like you can't and and you certainly can deeply clearly

917
01:12:44,443 --> 01:12:49,683
know of what in the first place has to be solved like i barely understand my own problems

918
01:12:49,683 --> 01:13:10,349
how am i supposed to understand the problem of someone else someone else living a thousand kilometers further away That just simply not possible So all of this myth of the state is so powerful the state is so effective and productive it just wrong

919
01:13:11,309 --> 01:13:12,409
They never were.

920
01:13:13,429 --> 01:13:18,869
Every king, every monarch, every bureaucrat was deeply wasteful.

921
01:13:19,589 --> 01:13:25,369
And the only reason why they survived this is because they were stealing faster than they could waste the money.

922
01:13:26,149 --> 01:13:28,029
And that's just a sad thing.

923
01:13:28,029 --> 01:13:32,609
So the opportunity cost of that is really, really astounding.

924
01:13:32,849 --> 01:13:34,169
I mean, look at NASA.

925
01:13:34,169 --> 01:13:57,289
An insane amount of budget to then allegedly get someone on the moon 60 years ago. The amount of problems, real, tangible, actual problems that we could have solved if not such vast amounts of money were diverted away through the pockets of bureaucrats is astounding.

926
01:13:57,289 --> 01:14:08,489
And obviously, if you have a problem and you know someone can fix your problem and you give him the money to fix your problem, that is the shortest path to a solution.

927
01:14:09,129 --> 01:14:20,509
If someone instead hits you with a stick, takes all of your money, gives it to someone else who gives it to someone else who gives it to someone else and who then says, okay, maybe we should actually do the thing.

928
01:14:20,509 --> 01:14:29,369
Now you have maybe 10% of the budget that you had for solving the problem is actually arriving at where the solution needs to be.

929
01:14:30,069 --> 01:14:31,769
And turns out that just doesn't work.

930
01:14:32,509 --> 01:14:38,129
And so socialism is fundamentally flawed in resource allocation.

931
01:14:38,789 --> 01:14:43,649
And that is because the decisions get made far away from where the problems are actually perceived.

932
01:14:44,269 --> 01:14:51,489
If those who perceive the problem pick up the shovel and do something about it, then that is the shortest path to success.

933
01:14:51,489 --> 01:15:07,609
And that's, I guess, to get back to my rant earlier, that I'm quite disappointed in so many Bitcoiners who see the problem, who deeply understand it, but then still don't do something about it because I'm not a developer or whatever other weird excuse.

934
01:15:08,149 --> 01:15:13,469
If you notice a problem, it is your problem, and you have to do something about it.

935
01:15:13,469 --> 01:15:17,689
And if you don't, you'll just end up being depressed and the problem doesn't get solved

936
01:15:17,689 --> 01:15:18,529
in the first place.

937
01:15:18,989 --> 01:15:24,829
When you could just pick up a shovel, solve the problem, derive an insane amount of meaning

938
01:15:24,829 --> 01:15:30,089
of the value of fixing something, not just for yourself, but for others as well.

939
01:15:30,389 --> 01:15:33,149
And then you have the problem solved, right?

940
01:15:33,229 --> 01:15:34,869
So it's a win-win-win for everyone.

941
01:15:35,309 --> 01:15:37,229
And it is incredibly efficient.

942
01:15:38,289 --> 01:15:42,549
It's like a perfect analogy here is you're taking a walk through the park and you see

943
01:15:42,549 --> 01:15:45,709
a couple of sweet wrappers, crisp packets on the floor,

944
01:15:45,869 --> 01:15:48,729
and you look at them and you tuck and you're like,

945
01:15:48,789 --> 01:15:52,309
ah, yeah, like, you know, littering is just disgusting.

946
01:15:52,589 --> 01:15:53,789
Like who the hell would do that?

947
01:15:54,029 --> 01:15:56,209
And then carry on walking without picking it up

948
01:15:56,209 --> 01:15:57,409
and putting it in the bin, right?

949
01:15:57,609 --> 01:16:01,429
So you just became part of the problem by walking by it

950
01:16:01,429 --> 01:16:02,929
and not doing anything about it.

951
01:16:03,709 --> 01:16:05,649
So don't become part of the problem, right?

952
01:16:05,649 --> 01:16:06,589
I think is what you're saying.

953
01:16:09,349 --> 01:16:09,749
Exactly.

954
01:16:09,989 --> 01:16:11,949
Like not addressing a problem that you see

955
01:16:11,949 --> 01:16:14,549
is a problem.

956
01:16:16,489 --> 01:16:18,369
It compares the problem.

957
01:16:19,689 --> 01:16:20,069
Yes.

958
01:16:21,329 --> 01:16:24,949
And sure, you cannot solve every problem that you see.

959
01:16:25,769 --> 01:16:29,569
And you have to manage your resources wisely

960
01:16:29,569 --> 01:16:31,229
and efficiently.

961
01:16:32,469 --> 01:16:35,269
And there's a subsidiarity of problems.

962
01:16:35,269 --> 01:16:38,369
I neglected a lot of other problems

963
01:16:38,369 --> 01:16:41,029
by focusing on the difficult problem of fixing the money.

964
01:16:41,029 --> 01:16:59,429
And that is a sacrifice and an opportunity cost, yes. But you can handle much more than you think you can. You can solve way more quantity and hardness level of problems than you would think is possible in the first place.

965
01:16:59,429 --> 01:17:06,289
it's just maybe intimidating to start but then once you start it's actually it's very addicting

966
01:17:06,289 --> 01:17:14,309
because it's inherently rewarding like that's in part again a little bit of austrian economics right

967
01:17:14,309 --> 01:17:22,309
humans perceive uneasiness right and removing uneasiness is what motivates us right that is

968
01:17:22,309 --> 01:17:27,449
the reason of why we do things is to remove uneasiness that's what how ludwig van mises

969
01:17:27,449 --> 01:17:33,909
called it. That's just another word of solving a problem. So solving a problem is at the root of

970
01:17:33,909 --> 01:17:40,529
what human action means, of what human existence means. And so when you double down on that and

971
01:17:40,529 --> 01:17:45,789
just solve problem after problem, remove uneasiness, not just of yourself, but of others,

972
01:17:46,609 --> 01:17:53,809
it is so rewarding that it keeps continuously motivating you. And it's not like we are running

973
01:17:53,809 --> 01:18:00,169
out of problems anytime soon. We have some of the biggest problems ever. And obviously the state is

974
01:18:00,169 --> 01:18:08,849
quite high up there on that list. And we can fix it. So let's just do that instead of complaining

975
01:18:08,849 --> 01:18:17,069
about it. And with the communications example here, we have state corporate communications

976
01:18:17,069 --> 01:18:22,529
completely centralized in choose your country, right? Wherever you're listening from, you've

977
01:18:22,529 --> 01:18:28,729
probably got one or two big telecommunications companies that are the go-to and you can bet your

978
01:18:28,729 --> 01:18:35,289
life that they have made very cushy deals with the current government there incumbent government and

979
01:18:35,289 --> 01:18:42,169
lobbied behind the scenes or have been granted certain permissions to create their monopolies

980
01:18:42,169 --> 01:18:48,929
in an easier and faster way with you know regulation and policy that that gets updated

981
01:18:48,929 --> 01:18:50,529
and keeps building their moat.

982
01:18:51,329 --> 01:18:52,849
And then along come NOSTA

983
01:18:52,849 --> 01:18:54,749
and the NOSTA relay market,

984
01:18:55,009 --> 01:18:56,789
which fixes this.

985
01:18:56,989 --> 01:18:57,349
So this is,

986
01:18:57,889 --> 01:18:59,629
I really want to drive home

987
01:18:59,629 --> 01:19:00,509
the point to people

988
01:19:00,509 --> 01:19:02,029
how important

989
01:19:02,029 --> 01:19:06,089
a decentralized communications network is.

990
01:19:08,389 --> 01:19:09,329
Like I said,

991
01:19:09,449 --> 01:19:09,549
you know,

992
01:19:09,629 --> 01:19:10,169
cometh the time,

993
01:19:10,329 --> 01:19:11,309
cometh the market

994
01:19:11,309 --> 01:19:12,389
because how centralized,

995
01:19:12,789 --> 01:19:13,829
it can't get any more centralized,

996
01:19:13,989 --> 01:19:14,229
really,

997
01:19:14,469 --> 01:19:16,349
this telecommunications system

998
01:19:16,349 --> 01:19:17,669
like that we're using.

999
01:19:17,669 --> 01:19:24,509
everything we do is tracked right if you're using any kind of phone i know you've written about this

1000
01:19:24,509 --> 01:19:29,809
as well at great length yes there are solutions out there with graphene os and certain phones that

1001
01:19:29,809 --> 01:19:37,829
you can do do the um the whole privacy thing but most people aren't doing that let's be fair so

1002
01:19:37,829 --> 01:19:43,769
you're being tracked completely uh by this cartel this monopoly of telecommunications

1003
01:19:43,769 --> 01:19:46,909
the mix of estate and private corporation.

1004
01:19:47,729 --> 01:19:50,889
And then there's NOSTA, the relay network

1005
01:19:50,889 --> 01:19:54,429
and the market that sprung up.

1006
01:19:55,649 --> 01:19:59,069
This is pure Austrian economics,

1007
01:19:59,729 --> 01:20:08,629
the flourishing of a ground-up initiative

1008
01:20:08,629 --> 01:20:12,369
that has been spawned into existence

1009
01:20:12,369 --> 01:20:14,209
because of the oppression.

1010
01:20:17,169 --> 01:20:17,889
Yeah.

1011
01:20:18,429 --> 01:20:21,909
Because of that oppression,

1012
01:20:22,549 --> 01:20:26,209
we find ways around it in a sly roundabout way

1013
01:20:26,209 --> 01:20:28,529
and persevere and get stronger.

1014
01:20:28,809 --> 01:20:31,049
That's the anti-fragility part of it.

1015
01:20:31,649 --> 01:20:33,849
And that's in part why I'm super glad

1016
01:20:33,849 --> 01:20:36,709
every time the government does some shenanigans

1017
01:20:36,709 --> 01:20:39,689
and does another lockdown or crazy regulation

1018
01:20:39,689 --> 01:20:44,289
because it hurts people and that sucks,

1019
01:20:44,429 --> 01:20:46,969
but at least they are notified of the problem

1020
01:20:46,969 --> 01:20:48,889
and they will look for solutions.

1021
01:20:49,709 --> 01:20:52,849
So humanity is quite anti-fragile in this way.

1022
01:20:53,809 --> 01:20:58,129
But ultimately, I think then when you realize

1023
01:20:58,129 --> 01:21:02,769
that there are these problems and you can just opt out

1024
01:21:02,769 --> 01:21:06,649
and leave that system of tyranny and slavery

1025
01:21:06,649 --> 01:21:10,269
and instead build something in the free and second realm,

1026
01:21:11,589 --> 01:21:14,709
that is an absolutely valid and good solution.

1027
01:21:15,409 --> 01:21:18,529
And Noster, as you said, is absolutely doing this.

1028
01:21:19,529 --> 01:21:26,209
It's really hard to distill down these things to the core essence.

1029
01:21:26,929 --> 01:21:30,709
And the founder of Twitters, etc.,

1030
01:21:30,709 --> 01:21:36,049
they had quite a good idea of what needed to be done.

1031
01:21:36,649 --> 01:21:47,149
But they kind of disregarded the fundamental architecture and put too much trust in the central server, in part because that's just what you did back then.

1032
01:21:47,149 --> 01:21:54,249
And there wasn't really the mind space and the technological building blocks to do something different.

1033
01:21:54,249 --> 01:22:01,129
But now, 20 years later or whatever, we have so much more tools in our toolkit.

1034
01:22:01,789 --> 01:22:12,149
And we have so much more fundamental understanding of the downsides of too centralized architecture that we can really reimagine things in a more proper way.

1035
01:22:12,749 --> 01:22:14,949
And this is what Bitcoin did with money.

1036
01:22:17,409 --> 01:22:20,389
Digital cash is around since the 1980s.

1037
01:22:20,989 --> 01:22:22,949
It's an ancient idea.

1038
01:22:22,949 --> 01:22:30,489
And it just took like 30 years to be reimagined in a way that actually works at scale.

1039
01:22:31,189 --> 01:22:36,129
Because people before made fundamentally wrong assumptions.

1040
01:22:36,669 --> 01:22:40,929
Like we can have a trusted third party in the middle that just settles things, right?

1041
01:22:41,489 --> 01:22:47,729
And with Noster, we're at least pushing much more in the right direction.

1042
01:22:48,329 --> 01:22:50,949
Like there are things like maybe it should be fully peer-to-peer.

1043
01:22:50,949 --> 01:22:57,449
peer, maybe relying on any, even a relay server, even if it is fully untrusted, maybe that's

1044
01:22:57,449 --> 01:22:58,069
a bad idea.

1045
01:22:59,389 --> 01:23:04,849
Arguably, we don't have the technological building blocks to go full peer-to-peer yet.

1046
01:23:05,769 --> 01:23:12,049
Like any other pure peer-to-peer tech solution is vastly not as performant as Nostra is per

1047
01:23:12,049 --> 01:23:12,209
se.

1048
01:23:13,169 --> 01:23:18,309
So arguably, we're not radical enough, and maybe that will bite us in the ass eventually.

1049
01:23:19,429 --> 01:23:19,889
But...

1050
01:23:19,915 --> 01:23:34,875
At least we have sufficiently removed all the trust assumptions in the relays and simply duplicating them to remove the final trust assumption, which is relays are trusted to store and deliver your data.

1051
01:23:35,455 --> 01:23:37,995
And that's the one trust that you have in your relay.

1052
01:23:38,395 --> 01:23:40,895
And in order to mitigate that, we just duplicate.

1053
01:23:40,895 --> 01:23:50,495
And that is a valid solution with quite good trade-offs that we can make work.

1054
01:23:51,195 --> 01:23:53,095
So hopefully that's good enough.

1055
01:23:53,615 --> 01:23:56,675
Certainly it's a lot better than anything that came before.

1056
01:23:57,455 --> 01:23:59,655
And obviously we can make it much better.

1057
01:24:00,075 --> 01:24:02,735
That's also the cool thing of these internet protocols.

1058
01:24:03,035 --> 01:24:04,095
We can upgrade them.

1059
01:24:04,555 --> 01:24:05,875
We have upgraded them.

1060
01:24:05,875 --> 01:24:10,675
We're like at the seventh iteration of encrypted stuff on Nostr by now.

1061
01:24:10,895 --> 01:24:13,475
And we've gotten exceedingly efficient at it.

1062
01:24:14,995 --> 01:24:16,095
Yes, for sure.

1063
01:24:16,455 --> 01:24:16,635
Right.

1064
01:24:16,735 --> 01:24:21,255
Final point on Noster and Rothbard and how this all ties together.

1065
01:24:21,655 --> 01:24:23,175
And then I'll ask you the final question.

1066
01:24:24,535 --> 01:24:27,115
He, and again, this is from your writing.

1067
01:24:27,515 --> 01:24:31,775
Rothbard emphasized that what acting man is interested in is future prices.

1068
01:24:31,775 --> 01:24:40,615
And the present committing of resources is accomplished by the entrepreneur, whose function is to appraise and anticipate future prices.

1069
01:24:40,895 --> 01:24:44,875
Nostar client developers exemplify this entrepreneurial function.

1070
01:24:45,375 --> 01:24:50,815
They commit resources to building applications based on their appraisal of future user demand

1071
01:24:50,815 --> 01:24:56,135
without any central authority directing their investment or guaranteeing their returns.

1072
01:24:56,575 --> 01:24:58,815
Some will succeed and some will fail.

1073
01:24:59,075 --> 01:25:05,215
But the market process ensures that resources flow toward those who correctly anticipate user preferences.

1074
01:25:05,215 --> 01:25:13,935
And this is the direct question that people have been positing about NOSTA from the very, very beginning.

1075
01:25:14,515 --> 01:25:15,875
What's the business model?

1076
01:25:16,535 --> 01:25:18,955
How are people going to make money?

1077
01:25:19,855 --> 01:25:24,135
And they'll point to Primal for an example.

1078
01:25:24,315 --> 01:25:26,115
How are Primal going to make money?

1079
01:25:26,535 --> 01:25:28,315
Or Damus or whatever.

1080
01:25:29,055 --> 01:25:32,295
So are people thinking about that in the correct terms?

1081
01:25:32,295 --> 01:25:35,275
Feel free to take this wherever you like.

1082
01:25:35,635 --> 01:25:39,035
What do you think here?

1083
01:25:40,755 --> 01:25:48,795
Yeah, what I'm meaning with this is not only about the developers making money,

1084
01:25:49,075 --> 01:25:54,295
but the developers solving problems that will exist in the future.

1085
01:25:55,075 --> 01:26:00,655
We don't yet know what the exact problem is in the future.

1086
01:26:00,655 --> 01:26:08,335
But we need to apply our capital today to come up with the solution to the problem in the future.

1087
01:26:08,955 --> 01:26:10,415
Making money is easy.

1088
01:26:11,315 --> 01:26:17,395
Basically, just solve a problem and get paid for it and repeat doing that.

1089
01:26:17,535 --> 01:26:22,095
The bigger the problem, the more people's problem you solve, the more you'll make money.

1090
01:26:22,615 --> 01:26:23,795
It's quite simple.

1091
01:26:23,795 --> 01:26:33,455
So the big question is, what are the problems of the future that people are so bothered by that they're willing to get rid of their precious satoshis for you?

1092
01:26:34,195 --> 01:26:37,055
That is the real tricky thing.

1093
01:26:37,175 --> 01:26:46,495
And so a couple of crazy cypherpunks had this realization three years ago of, hey, Twitter is a problem.

1094
01:26:46,495 --> 01:26:54,995
Even though a lot of people were loving it, but this centralized social media infrastructure, the architecture itself is a problem.

1095
01:26:55,815 --> 01:27:13,275
And it will manifest in many smaller sub-problems like people getting shadowbanned, people getting manipulated with an algorithm, people getting censored outright, people getting spied upon with the advertisement, data harvesting, etc.

1096
01:27:13,275 --> 01:27:37,175
All of these are sub-problems of a larger problem of the architecture as fucked, basically. And so we got together to build a fundamental solution to these really difficult problems, anticipating that in the future there will be enough people that share this understanding of the problem and that are looking for a solution to that.

1097
01:27:37,175 --> 01:27:49,955
And then that is the first core aspect of the entrepreneur is like find out what people in the future have a problem with and fix that.

1098
01:27:50,095 --> 01:27:56,635
And in order to fix any meaningfully large problem, you will need time, a lot of time, years, decades even.

1099
01:27:57,255 --> 01:28:01,395
And then the big question that follows is how are you going to pay for that?

1100
01:28:01,395 --> 01:28:13,075
How are you going to accumulate all of the resources that are needed to build the tools that build the tools that build the machine that builds the product that finally solves the solution itself?

1101
01:28:13,975 --> 01:28:15,415
And that is the market, right?

1102
01:28:15,455 --> 01:28:17,515
Those are actual production stages.

1103
01:28:18,415 --> 01:28:22,595
And the good thing is the economy actually does solve for this.

1104
01:28:23,635 --> 01:28:30,675
There are early investors that give seed capital to see a problem being addressed.

1105
01:28:30,675 --> 01:28:40,675
And then sooner or later, there are actual customers that either pre-buy a solution to the problem or then eventually just buy the product outright.

1106
01:28:42,315 --> 01:28:45,775
Then another big question here is scale.

1107
01:28:45,775 --> 01:29:00,795
And if you're solving a problem for like five people, you might get a little bit of money or capital, but not really enough to justify a massive investment into the equipment to do this whole ordeal.

1108
01:29:00,795 --> 01:29:14,395
So scale is important and that is where Noster is currently just too small to be an actual like obviously profitable thing to do.

1109
01:29:14,395 --> 01:29:27,835
Because there are a couple hundred thousand people who are actively using this and that might not be enough for a widely dispersed ecosystem to actually become profitable.

1110
01:29:27,835 --> 01:29:32,615
But then there are other ways to make revenue in the meantime.

1111
01:29:33,135 --> 01:29:37,175
You could, like Primal, for example, get revenue from venture capital.

1112
01:29:37,615 --> 01:29:42,555
They raised, I'm not sure how much, but probably a decent amount from different investors.

1113
01:29:43,355 --> 01:29:48,095
And that is capital for them to deploy in the production of the tools that are needed.

1114
01:29:48,775 --> 01:29:53,615
You can rely on donations and gifts from, for example, Jack Dorsey.

1115
01:29:53,615 --> 01:29:59,055
He's been prolific in providing capital to the builders of these tools,

1116
01:29:59,055 --> 01:30:00,655
and that works quite well.

1117
01:30:00,655 --> 01:30:05,235
And of course, that can come from multiple different people and organizations,

1118
01:30:05,235 --> 01:30:24,260
OpenSats HRF etc which works really well as an initial stopgap to provide some of the resources needed But then very soon you should go to the people whom you actually solving the problem for and ask them for the money And like your

1119
01:30:24,260 --> 01:30:33,120
users should pay for your services. And that's a crazy idea, I know. But that really is how it

1120
01:30:33,120 --> 01:30:39,800
works. And the thing is, for the largest amount of time in the internet, you couldn't just get paid

1121
01:30:39,800 --> 01:30:41,480
from your users, right?

1122
01:30:41,500 --> 01:30:42,360
Because first of all,

1123
01:30:42,400 --> 01:30:43,580
receiving money online

1124
01:30:43,580 --> 01:30:45,060
was notoriously difficult.

1125
01:30:45,260 --> 01:30:46,120
You need a bank account,

1126
01:30:46,340 --> 01:30:47,440
you need a whole company

1127
01:30:47,440 --> 01:30:49,380
and processing credit cards,

1128
01:30:49,540 --> 01:30:50,820
et cetera, is crazy expensive.

1129
01:30:51,520 --> 01:30:52,600
And so you cannot do it

1130
01:30:52,600 --> 01:30:53,620
for small payments.

1131
01:30:54,140 --> 01:30:55,740
And then you need to bundle it

1132
01:30:55,740 --> 01:30:57,400
in a subscription and whatnot.

1133
01:30:57,400 --> 01:30:59,140
And it comes with all types

1134
01:30:59,140 --> 01:31:00,020
of different problems.

1135
01:31:00,820 --> 01:31:02,780
But I don't know if you guys know this,

1136
01:31:03,080 --> 01:31:04,940
but we have money on the internet now.

1137
01:31:05,820 --> 01:31:07,440
And that changes everything.

1138
01:31:07,440 --> 01:31:14,060
And I noticed this with Wasabi Wallet because the product that we were working on was a wallet.

1139
01:31:14,840 --> 01:31:24,540
So literally, by definition, 100% of our users had magic internet money and programmable magical internet money.

1140
01:31:25,120 --> 01:31:27,800
And we could program their wallet.

1141
01:31:28,480 --> 01:31:35,060
So we can simply say 0.3% of your wallet goes to us.

1142
01:31:35,060 --> 01:31:57,680
And if you don't like that, then turn it off or change the code or just use a different wallet. But this is how this wallet works. And 0.3% is not much. And the value that we provided was infinitely larger. So it was a win-win for everyone. People saved a bunch of money. And so they were happy to give us a tiny fraction of the money that they saved.

1143
01:31:57,680 --> 01:32:01,060
that's great

1144
01:32:01,060 --> 01:32:02,440
and then the question is just

1145
01:32:02,440 --> 01:32:05,240
what is the mental transaction cost

1146
01:32:05,240 --> 01:32:07,420
for people to pay you

1147
01:32:07,420 --> 01:32:10,760
because if I need to fill out a form

1148
01:32:10,760 --> 01:32:11,880
and print it out

1149
01:32:11,880 --> 01:32:13,260
and sign it with a piece of paper

1150
01:32:13,260 --> 01:32:14,660
then upload it or send it

1151
01:32:14,660 --> 01:32:16,040
to some post office

1152
01:32:16,040 --> 01:32:19,060
just to send you 30 cents of whatever

1153
01:32:19,060 --> 01:32:21,260
that's not going to work

1154
01:32:21,260 --> 01:32:22,400
I don't want to do that

1155
01:32:22,400 --> 01:32:23,600
because it's too much hassle

1156
01:32:23,600 --> 01:32:26,080
but that's where software comes in

1157
01:32:26,080 --> 01:32:27,420
you can automate stuff

1158
01:32:27,420 --> 01:32:36,320
and so especially as soon as money is involved in the native product that you are working on

1159
01:32:36,320 --> 01:32:40,820
and we have that with every bitcoin wallet we have that with basically every nostre client

1160
01:32:40,820 --> 01:32:48,440
just take a cut and and most nostre clients do this nowadays if someone makes a zap just take

1161
01:32:48,440 --> 01:32:55,540
five percent you know why not um and sure maybe some users are going to complain so give them the

1162
01:32:55,540 --> 01:33:01,980
option to set it to zero and i would argue then also give them the option to set it to 300 percent

1163
01:33:01,980 --> 01:33:07,240
and so if i send you a thousand sats then three thousand sats in addition go to the developers

1164
01:33:07,240 --> 01:33:12,920
why not like the developer does way more work than a shit post and so if you have the money to send

1165
01:33:12,920 --> 01:33:17,080
a thousand sats to a shit post you should have the money to send three thousand sats to the people

1166
01:33:17,080 --> 01:33:22,700
who provided you the tools to view that shit post in the first place that's way harder work than just

1167
01:33:22,700 --> 01:33:24,860
writing the tweet, you know.

1168
01:33:25,480 --> 01:33:31,660
So thankfully with Bitcoin, we have a million and one ways to actually transfer money from

1169
01:33:31,660 --> 01:33:33,140
the users to the developers.

1170
01:33:33,860 --> 01:33:39,700
And the developers just have to do it and not be ashamed of asking for money and building

1171
01:33:39,700 --> 01:33:44,620
tools that by default transfer money from the user to the developer.

1172
01:33:45,420 --> 01:33:48,160
And then the only question left is scale, right?

1173
01:33:48,160 --> 01:33:52,260
Like we didn't earn much money in the early days of Wasabi.

1174
01:33:52,840 --> 01:33:58,140
And equally now, most Nostra devs don't earn much money, even though they take 5% or whatever.

1175
01:33:59,140 --> 01:34:05,220
And so you need to reach that critical mass to, at some point, be actually profitable.

1176
01:34:06,040 --> 01:34:08,060
But you know, that will come with time.

1177
01:34:08,140 --> 01:34:14,080
And if your product is actually good and continues to get better, then the people will come sooner or later.

1178
01:34:14,080 --> 01:34:26,900
And maybe, maybe if there's just isn't enough people coming to use your technology and to pay you for it, then maybe you're wasting your time on something that is not that important and you should do something else.

1179
01:34:27,120 --> 01:34:32,520
That's the market signaling you that you could do much better, right?

1180
01:34:32,520 --> 01:34:37,180
This is not the most important problem to put your hands on at the moment.

1181
01:34:37,760 --> 01:34:43,860
Go do something that people actually value, where people are actually happy to give their hard-earned money to you.

1182
01:34:44,080 --> 01:34:49,120
And, you know, that's a fine line to walk on which project do you work on?

1183
01:34:49,200 --> 01:34:51,500
How long do you work on it without earning any money?

1184
01:34:51,640 --> 01:34:52,340
When do you pivot?

1185
01:34:53,320 --> 01:34:56,840
And those are all extremely complex questions to ask.

1186
01:34:57,360 --> 01:35:01,580
And obviously, I can provide a good answer in general.

1187
01:35:02,720 --> 01:35:04,360
And that's where the market comes in.

1188
01:35:04,620 --> 01:35:09,680
That's why we have 8 billion people trying to wrestle with these ideas and come up with

1189
01:35:09,680 --> 01:35:12,780
cool solutions to difficult problems that people are willing to pay for.

1190
01:35:12,780 --> 01:35:15,640
because sooner or later, one of us will figure it out.

1191
01:35:16,140 --> 01:35:16,540
And guess what?

1192
01:35:16,600 --> 01:35:18,660
You don't have to be the one that starts the project.

1193
01:35:19,020 --> 01:35:22,300
You can just join a project that already has users

1194
01:35:22,300 --> 01:35:24,160
and a big problem and a great solution

1195
01:35:24,160 --> 01:35:27,960
and you just join that existing project and make it better.

1196
01:35:28,380 --> 01:35:29,660
Like I didn't start Wasabi.

1197
01:35:30,280 --> 01:35:32,600
I found Wasabi because it was cool

1198
01:35:32,600 --> 01:35:34,460
and then I joined the existing team.

1199
01:35:35,260 --> 01:35:37,600
And equally now, I'm not the only one working on White Noise.

1200
01:35:38,160 --> 01:35:39,680
There's Jeff, there's a bunch of others

1201
01:35:39,680 --> 01:35:41,160
and we're doing this together.

1202
01:35:41,340 --> 01:35:42,560
You don't need to do it alone.

1203
01:35:42,780 --> 01:35:45,200
Most things are shit if you do it alone.

1204
01:35:45,360 --> 01:35:49,700
It's much better if you have friends and colleagues that help you in this endeavor.

1205
01:35:50,540 --> 01:35:59,760
And there's a couple of amazing projects in Bitcoin, in Noster, in the broader freedom ecosystem that absolutely need your help.

1206
01:35:59,900 --> 01:36:04,640
And that absolutely already have the capital to pay for people that help fix the problems.

1207
01:36:05,260 --> 01:36:07,200
So go ahead and do that.

1208
01:36:07,900 --> 01:36:08,340
Love it, mate.

1209
01:36:08,700 --> 01:36:09,820
Absolutely love it.

1210
01:36:09,820 --> 01:36:13,980
perfect place to put a pin in today's conversation.

1211
01:36:14,700 --> 01:36:16,780
So I've got to throw the last conversation at you.

1212
01:36:18,500 --> 01:36:19,580
Should I change it?

1213
01:36:20,420 --> 01:36:23,580
If you had one last purple pill left to give to somebody,

1214
01:36:24,120 --> 01:36:25,780
who would you give it to and why?

1215
01:36:27,020 --> 01:36:27,920
Oh, I'm honored.

1216
01:36:28,100 --> 01:36:30,540
That might be the first time you're changing your last question.

1217
01:36:30,540 --> 01:36:30,720
Yep.

1218
01:36:33,660 --> 01:36:36,800
And now I was so prepared for the orange question,

1219
01:36:36,880 --> 01:36:37,680
but now it's purple.

1220
01:36:39,820 --> 01:36:44,680
Okay, that's a tough one.

1221
01:36:49,300 --> 01:36:54,400
Well, I was kind of thinking of,

1222
01:36:55,140 --> 01:36:57,020
like back a couple weeks ago,

1223
01:36:57,080 --> 01:36:58,340
I was joking at a conference of,

1224
01:36:58,860 --> 01:37:02,200
we need more billionaires to fund Freedom Tech.

1225
01:37:03,340 --> 01:37:06,720
And then someone told me that at the moment,

1226
01:37:06,720 --> 01:37:21,045
And I think we using less than 3 of the annual philanthropy budget of Jack Dorsey So we cannot even spend the money of one billionaire even though he would be probably happy to give us more

1227
01:37:21,505 --> 01:37:23,565
It's just we're uninvestable, so to say,

1228
01:37:24,145 --> 01:37:25,845
because we're not doing enough.

1229
01:37:26,605 --> 01:37:31,225
And so I'm not going to suggest Mark Zuckerberg

1230
01:37:31,225 --> 01:37:32,605
or anything like that.

1231
01:37:32,605 --> 01:37:47,625
I would split the purple pill to a bunch of people and give it to those who have the skill and the passion and the dedication to build it.

1232
01:37:48,145 --> 01:37:50,785
We don't need people just shitposting on Oster.

1233
01:37:51,265 --> 01:37:52,605
I mean, that's cool. Do it.

1234
01:37:53,065 --> 01:37:57,385
But even more important, we need the people who are building it.

1235
01:37:57,885 --> 01:38:01,825
And so give it to the builders, broadly speaking.

1236
01:38:02,605 --> 01:38:24,225
Love it, mate. Well, that's the call to action right there. Max, how can people reach out? If there's anything that you've said here today that's interested them and they want to reach out or they feel as though they need your guidance, maybe you can put them, matchmake them and their skills to something, another project that's going on. If anybody's inspired, where should they reach out to you?

1237
01:38:24,225 --> 01:38:31,805
towardsliberty.com that's my website there you find my pubkey and all my nostril posts

1238
01:38:31,805 --> 01:38:37,285
and and yeah to the question that you said of like where where should you go to people ask me

1239
01:38:37,285 --> 01:38:42,145
a lot of hey which project should I work on and I always give the same answer and maybe it's a

1240
01:38:42,145 --> 01:38:47,085
shitty answer but it's the one that I feel is right contribute to the tools that you're already

1241
01:38:47,085 --> 01:38:52,185
using right now and because you know that they're important otherwise you wouldn't use them

1242
01:38:52,185 --> 01:38:56,345
And you know they're valuable because apparently they solve a problem for you.

1243
01:38:56,685 --> 01:39:00,985
And I'm sure that for every tool that you use, you know how to make it better already.

1244
01:39:01,705 --> 01:39:05,205
So help the people that build the tools that you rely on.

1245
01:39:05,645 --> 01:39:09,025
That was my entire strategy of my Freedom Tech career.

1246
01:39:09,845 --> 01:39:15,065
I one by one went through all of the tools that I was using that I was relying on for a freer life.

1247
01:39:15,365 --> 01:39:18,125
And I asked the people, how can I help you?

1248
01:39:18,425 --> 01:39:20,025
What do you need that I can make it better?

1249
01:39:20,025 --> 01:39:23,285
and that's an important question to ask

1250
01:39:23,285 --> 01:39:25,685
but also think about just doing it

1251
01:39:25,685 --> 01:39:26,565
without their permission

1252
01:39:26,565 --> 01:39:28,785
you can write blog posts

1253
01:39:28,785 --> 01:39:30,965
or do YouTubes or tutorials

1254
01:39:30,965 --> 01:39:32,305
or interviews etc

1255
01:39:32,305 --> 01:39:35,685
about the tools that you find valuable

1256
01:39:35,685 --> 01:39:37,745
and just onboard your friends

1257
01:39:37,745 --> 01:39:38,625
onboard your family

1258
01:39:38,625 --> 01:39:40,485
help people set up the tools

1259
01:39:40,485 --> 01:39:43,265
that you're already using and working

1260
01:39:43,265 --> 01:39:45,045
and then encourage those users

1261
01:39:45,045 --> 01:39:47,325
to make a donation to the project as well

1262
01:39:47,325 --> 01:39:49,965
so yeah

1263
01:39:50,445 --> 01:39:53,885
You can just do things and you can just fix the tools that you know are broken.

1264
01:39:54,745 --> 01:40:00,745
And for those listening now on Apple or Google, like switch to Fountain App.

1265
01:40:01,465 --> 01:40:02,705
It's that simple.

1266
01:40:02,925 --> 01:40:04,945
This is exactly what Max is talking about.

1267
01:40:05,125 --> 01:40:06,445
The tools already exist.

1268
01:40:06,965 --> 01:40:08,305
Fountain App exists.

1269
01:40:08,945 --> 01:40:17,025
Yes, I know that the barrier to entry for most people to switch has been very sticky to their old tech, like we talked about earlier.

1270
01:40:17,025 --> 01:40:20,805
and it's just too damn easy and I've got my subscriptions running on Apple

1271
01:40:20,805 --> 01:40:25,985
and whatever else, but get rid of it.

1272
01:40:26,585 --> 01:40:27,585
Download Fountain App.

1273
01:40:28,125 --> 01:40:31,505
Start streaming some sats across to your favorite podcasters.

1274
01:40:31,925 --> 01:40:32,945
Start using the tools.

1275
01:40:33,125 --> 01:40:33,785
Reach out to them.

1276
01:40:33,845 --> 01:40:36,785
Give them the problems that you're experiencing.

1277
01:40:36,965 --> 01:40:37,885
They need the feedback.

1278
01:40:38,465 --> 01:40:41,305
Nick and Oscar, great Britco owners.

1279
01:40:41,525 --> 01:40:42,425
They're here in Britain.

1280
01:40:42,425 --> 01:40:57,305
And another example would be to support, if you love music, go and find Aaron of Essex over here in the UK, who's onboarding new musicians to Bitcoin so they can accept Bitcoin for their music.

1281
01:40:57,665 --> 01:41:00,185
Get them or stop listening to music on Spotify.

1282
01:41:00,645 --> 01:41:01,625
Start using Wyvelake.

1283
01:41:01,905 --> 01:41:03,085
Start using Fountain App.

1284
01:41:03,965 --> 01:41:05,945
You know, these things already exist, right?

1285
01:41:06,685 --> 01:41:08,065
And if not you, then who?

1286
01:41:08,065 --> 01:41:08,505
Right.

1287
01:41:08,505 --> 01:41:17,485
If we as Bitcoiners are not using that technology, then we're just slowing everything else down.

1288
01:41:17,765 --> 01:41:23,045
Everyone's talking about Bitcoin treasury companies are going to take us to the moon and this, that, and the other thing.

1289
01:41:23,225 --> 01:41:24,885
And it's the fiat Trojan horse.

1290
01:41:25,125 --> 01:41:28,845
None of that matters if the economy is not being built up from the ground up.

1291
01:41:29,745 --> 01:41:32,345
It's going to be the market.

1292
01:41:33,085 --> 01:41:34,785
Come at the time, come at the market.

1293
01:41:34,785 --> 01:41:38,585
the economic actors within this market are us as individuals.

1294
01:41:39,565 --> 01:41:44,565
And if we can lean into existing projects, get over to Geyser, right?

1295
01:41:44,705 --> 01:41:50,305
What a great place to geyser.fund to go and find all the projects that are listed.

1296
01:41:50,545 --> 01:41:53,045
And I'm not saying go and throw sats at every single one.

1297
01:41:53,125 --> 01:41:55,445
I'm not trying to shame anybody here into throwing sats.

1298
01:41:55,865 --> 01:41:59,525
But you could probably lend your skills and services to a whole bunch of those different

1299
01:41:59,525 --> 01:42:04,065
projects if there's something there that piques your interest.

1300
01:42:04,785 --> 01:42:14,825
I met a guy last night who's making a Bitcoin trading game, BTCG, and he's creating a physical and online game.

1301
01:42:16,205 --> 01:42:19,805
For those on video, here's one of like the gaming cards.

1302
01:42:20,285 --> 01:42:27,685
So it's like a Top Trumps kind of style card that, you know, people can play and connect with each other online or in real life.

1303
01:42:28,525 --> 01:42:33,485
Go support that if trading games, you know, card games are your thing.

1304
01:42:33,485 --> 01:42:38,085
And I think pretty much all these niches are being covered.

1305
01:42:39,125 --> 01:42:45,565
You can buy, like you said, soap, soap miner, leather mint, all these guys.

1306
01:42:45,745 --> 01:42:47,465
We've now got Bitcoin wine.

1307
01:42:47,645 --> 01:42:49,165
We've got beef bits.

1308
01:42:49,565 --> 01:42:51,325
It is coming along.

1309
01:42:52,045 --> 01:43:01,725
But these are the people, these are the entrepreneurs that we need to support and sling them some sats and well-deserved.

1310
01:43:01,725 --> 01:43:04,945
if they're creating products that you so desire.

1311
01:43:06,685 --> 01:43:06,845
Yeah.

1312
01:43:07,545 --> 01:43:11,625
It really is not enough to just listen to podcasts.

1313
01:43:12,945 --> 01:43:16,445
That is counterproductive.

1314
01:43:16,765 --> 01:43:20,545
It's a good place to start, but very soon you have to get out of that mindset

1315
01:43:20,545 --> 01:43:25,725
and you have to be part of the builders in whatever shape or form that that means.

1316
01:43:25,725 --> 01:43:30,605
because knowing this information

1317
01:43:30,605 --> 01:43:33,505
that you get on this podcast and others

1318
01:43:33,505 --> 01:43:36,225
and not doing anything with it,

1319
01:43:36,365 --> 01:43:38,625
I think is extremely psychologically damaging.

1320
01:43:39,365 --> 01:43:42,265
And you're part of the problem.

1321
01:43:42,785 --> 01:43:45,445
And you're making it worse and you're making it bigger.

1322
01:43:45,445 --> 01:43:47,245
And that's really not good.

1323
01:43:47,745 --> 01:43:51,405
You need a creative outlet for the anger

1324
01:43:51,405 --> 01:43:53,825
that this information should distill in you.

1325
01:43:53,825 --> 01:44:01,605
right and if not your your soul will will shrivel with the shame of knowing that evil is being done

1326
01:44:01,605 --> 01:44:21,270
and not doing anything with it so go out and actually do something with this valuable information that you accumulated over all of these years 40 hours per week i love these psychopaths that sit there and listen to it And I know exactly what you mean by this because I got to a point

1327
01:44:21,370 --> 01:44:22,770
and that's why I started the podcast.

1328
01:44:22,910 --> 01:44:26,290
I got to a point where I was just yelling, old man yelling at clouds, right?

1329
01:44:26,290 --> 01:44:27,430
I had no outlet.

1330
01:44:27,430 --> 01:44:30,490
I had no one to speak with, no one to connect to.

1331
01:44:30,490 --> 01:44:36,910
So Twitter was a way fun time back in the mid to late teens than it is now.

1332
01:44:37,210 --> 01:44:40,530
So it's an even more lonelier place for people now.

1333
01:44:40,910 --> 01:44:47,470
And it's been a really, really confusing year, especially if this is your first cycle

1334
01:44:47,470 --> 01:44:49,530
or if you've just found Bitcoin this year.

1335
01:44:49,530 --> 01:44:54,590
My goodness, the amount of noise that you've got to sift through.

1336
01:44:54,730 --> 01:44:59,690
But if you've been through a cycle and you've done your 40 hours per week,

1337
01:44:59,690 --> 01:45:06,430
I look forward to how you can lean into um into this space and when you do you're going to get

1338
01:45:06,430 --> 01:45:13,810
paid back in so many different ways not not just satoshis or you know or fiat uh you know people

1339
01:45:13,810 --> 01:45:18,170
don't do it for that you're going to get paid you're going to get rewarded in ways that like

1340
01:45:18,170 --> 01:45:22,270
it's hard to put into words like you know what I've experienced since starting the podcast and

1341
01:45:22,270 --> 01:45:26,470
meeting people like yourself and everybody else that I've managed to meet at the conferences

1342
01:45:26,470 --> 01:45:28,950
around, mainly around Europe.

1343
01:45:29,730 --> 01:45:32,390
It's, yeah, it's been a journey

1344
01:45:32,390 --> 01:45:36,010
and I just wish it on as many other Bitcoiners

1345
01:45:36,010 --> 01:45:37,270
out there as possible.

1346
01:45:38,610 --> 01:45:40,490
It's nice to leave that on a positive note, mate.

1347
01:45:40,590 --> 01:45:41,490
We got this.

1348
01:45:42,230 --> 01:45:45,690
It just requires a few more of us to keep leaning in.

1349
01:45:47,610 --> 01:45:48,370
Yeah, exactly.

1350
01:45:49,090 --> 01:45:50,390
It's a lot of fun.

1351
01:45:50,650 --> 01:45:51,670
It's a lot of hard work,

1352
01:45:51,990 --> 01:45:54,670
but it's absolutely worth it.

1353
01:45:55,370 --> 01:45:56,070
Join us.

1354
01:45:56,470 --> 01:45:57,270
100%

1355
01:45:57,270 --> 01:45:57,990
alright Max

1356
01:45:57,990 --> 01:45:58,930
thanks for coming on mate

1357
01:45:58,930 --> 01:45:59,370
and have

1358
01:45:59,370 --> 01:46:01,010
enjoyed the rest of your day

1359
01:46:01,010 --> 01:46:01,670
wherever you are

1360
01:46:01,670 --> 01:46:02,890
and whatever time zone you're on

1361
01:46:02,890 --> 01:46:04,310
appreciate you

1362
01:46:04,310 --> 01:46:05,590
catch you again soon

1363
01:46:05,590 --> 01:46:07,450
see you around

1364
01:46:07,450 --> 01:46:08,330
bye bye

1365
01:46:08,330 --> 01:46:13,250
thank you everybody for listening

1366
01:46:13,250 --> 01:46:14,550
thank you Max

1367
01:46:14,550 --> 01:46:15,830
for coming back on the show

1368
01:46:15,830 --> 01:46:16,790
and sharing everything

1369
01:46:16,790 --> 01:46:18,350
that you've been up to recently

1370
01:46:18,350 --> 01:46:19,910
if you've been inspired

1371
01:46:19,910 --> 01:46:21,590
by anything that you've heard there

1372
01:46:21,590 --> 01:46:22,310
if there's any way

1373
01:46:22,310 --> 01:46:22,970
that you think

1374
01:46:22,970 --> 01:46:24,070
you'd be able to help

1375
01:46:24,070 --> 01:46:25,310
with Max

1376
01:46:25,310 --> 01:46:26,390
and his latest project

1377
01:46:26,390 --> 01:46:33,210
white noise reach out if you would like to get any kind of guidance from max like i said at the

1378
01:46:33,210 --> 01:46:40,610
beginning he has towards liberty.com is his website you can just book a slot with him get on a call

1379
01:46:40,610 --> 01:46:46,350
see where you can add value see if there's anywhere that he can uh like help you out and

1380
01:46:46,350 --> 01:46:53,510
like i said there could be anything from helping you set up a self-custody system and just having

1381
01:46:53,510 --> 01:47:00,510
like an expert on the end of the line and i use that word in this case like max has been doing

1382
01:47:00,510 --> 01:47:07,830
this for a long time he's definitely an expert in that field he spent many years working within

1383
01:47:07,830 --> 01:47:14,250
wasabi and building wasabi from the very beginning when wasabi was just a an online wallet before

1384
01:47:14,250 --> 01:47:22,790
they became what they went on to become and yeah there's many many learnings you can go back and

1385
01:47:22,790 --> 01:47:28,550
listen to the other conversations that we've had in the past to see max's trajectory and

1386
01:47:28,550 --> 01:47:36,570
the rally cry listen to the rally cry what is it that you can do or where is it that you can add

1387
01:47:36,570 --> 01:47:42,550
value in your own specific way using your own specific skill set and your knowledge and that

1388
01:47:42,550 --> 01:47:50,930
could be in absolutely any field any field at all whatever your area of expertise is i guarantee you

1389
01:47:50,930 --> 01:47:57,130
you marry that with bitcoin or in fact your area of passion is because your expertise might be in a

1390
01:47:57,130 --> 01:48:02,050
fiat job that you really can't stand and you want to get out of so what's your passion find your

1391
01:48:02,050 --> 01:48:11,150
passion and mix that with bitcoin and i guarantee you opportunities will come your way completely

1392
01:48:11,150 --> 01:48:16,210
out of left field you've got to find your people though and there is a great place to go find your

1393
01:48:16,210 --> 01:48:22,690
people. Club Orange. It used to be called Orange Peel App. It has rebranded. It's now called Club

1394
01:48:22,690 --> 01:48:29,110
Orange. Go back and listen to my recent episode with Matteo Pellegrino. He's the founder, the CEO,

1395
01:48:29,390 --> 01:48:36,030
the builder, designer, the dreamer. He's the guy that scratched his own itch as a lonely Bitcoiner

1396
01:48:36,030 --> 01:48:42,570
on the west coast of the US when his wife and his friends and his family just gave up listening to

1397
01:48:42,570 --> 01:48:48,350
him talking about Bitcoin. He had nowhere to turn. He had no friends left that he could just get into

1398
01:48:48,350 --> 01:48:54,550
deep conversations with. He found himself just spending hours and hours on Twitter. So he built

1399
01:48:54,550 --> 01:49:00,850
Club Orange to connect with people, to find people. He wanted an app that he could open up and said,

1400
01:49:00,850 --> 01:49:08,170
yo, there's 15 Bitcoiners within 150 mile radius of you. And guess what? There's this meetup over

1401
01:49:08,170 --> 01:49:13,030
here there's this event going on here there's this merchant that accepts bitcoin you can go

1402
01:49:13,030 --> 01:49:18,050
across and go and get a coffee or a beer or you can order something from them online that's what

1403
01:49:18,050 --> 01:49:25,950
he built for himself there's now almost 20 000 members on club orange i'm a big fan of it i've

1404
01:49:25,950 --> 01:49:30,470
been part of the advisory board there with mateo from the very beginning he was very

1405
01:49:30,470 --> 01:49:37,550
uh he was very humbling to to be invited along there he'd been a long listener of the show

1406
01:49:37,550 --> 01:49:41,910
so that was a reason. I sit on that board with Knut von Holm. He's written five books about

1407
01:49:41,910 --> 01:49:47,770
Bitcoin. He's got his own Bitcoin podcast. Nico from Bitcoinbook.shop and Nico from Simply

1408
01:49:47,770 --> 01:49:52,670
Bitcoin as well and a few others and we just get together each month and we look at what's going on

1409
01:49:52,670 --> 01:50:00,530
and try and get as many people meeting as each other as possible because the real value is found

1410
01:50:00,530 --> 01:50:07,230
in in real life physical meetings. That's what we're built to do. We are social animals. It's

1411
01:50:07,230 --> 01:50:15,190
time to get offline and get in physical spaces with each other in real life so go check out club

1412
01:50:15,190 --> 01:50:19,850
orange there is a link in the show notes that you can hit it's going to take you directly there

1413
01:50:19,850 --> 01:50:26,810
yes it's a paid app it's a paid app because if something's free you're a project you are a product

1414
01:50:26,810 --> 01:50:35,210
same thing i guess uh there's no ads on there no data is harvested or stored and you can reach out

1415
01:50:35,210 --> 01:50:37,190
to Matteo. Ask him about it

1416
01:50:37,190 --> 01:50:38,610
and get connected.

1417
01:50:39,570 --> 01:50:41,330
Get over to Club Orange. Hit the link in the show notes.

1418
01:50:41,490 --> 01:50:43,250
Look forward to seeing you there. Say hi to

1419
01:50:43,250 --> 01:50:45,090
me on there if you sign up and

1420
01:50:45,090 --> 01:50:47,350
it would be cool to meet at one stage

1421
01:50:47,350 --> 01:50:48,430
during any of these conferences.

1422
01:50:49,190 --> 01:50:51,270
Look forward to meeting many of you at

1423
01:50:51,270 --> 01:50:53,050
BTC Prague again this year.

1424
01:50:53,050 --> 01:50:55,110
It's going to be in June. Hit the link

1425
01:50:55,110 --> 01:50:56,950
in the show notes. Use the code BITN

1426
01:50:56,950 --> 01:50:59,070
and get 10% discount on all

1427
01:50:59,070 --> 01:51:00,330
your ticket purchases.

1428
01:51:01,050 --> 01:51:02,650
That's the end of the show. Thanks for listening guys.

1429
01:51:02,930 --> 01:51:03,850
I'll catch you on the next one.

1430
01:51:05,210 --> 01:51:35,190
Thank you.