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all right we are recording guys great to see you good morning no swearing from now on yeah hi thank

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you for having us yeah exactly it's usually a family show because lauren generally comes on to

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ask the first question uh but uh yeah she's not around today unfortunately but she'd like to know

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what's going on over your shoulder there thomas what do you have back there you have the plushie

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oh yeah and well she would have been drawn to that obviously because you know she's a young girl

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but uh the the little cabinet there i think that's pretty cool so for those that can you grab that and

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and just yeah that's gonna set this up nicely i think because what you have there is the cabinet

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i believe so for those watching on video this is the i hope you can see it well the history of

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evolution right the it's not a theory this is yeah exactly um so it's been quite some time since i

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saw that actually so let me let me check what was here actually yeah it's the the model one and and

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all the prototypes like this dates back to 2012 i think something like that right where there was

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this first prototype and then yeah it kind of evolved into yeah into the model one that you

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know there are also some metallic ones yeah i think this one was sold for one bitcoin and this

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one for for three bitcoins i think so maybe we should have kept the prices the same uh

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but unfortunately i yeah it's probably no one would buy that anymore that that was the price

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of a hardware wallet back in like two between 2012 and i think 2012 or 2013. i think something

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like that yeah it was like a pre-order back in the time and i think it was one for the the white one

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and three for the metallic one we actually still have some of the screenshots screenshots of the

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early website with the prices and stuff yeah that's cool yeah you'll have to send me those uh

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perhaps i'll link them to the show notes if you've got them somewhere because yeah people for i mean

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that just goes to show you right like uh you were selling a hardware wallet back in the day around

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2012 2013 and the price the equivalent price all you were actually selling them for bitcoin of course

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was one bitcoin yeah i think was it how much was it back then like 100 maybe um yeah i don't

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remember either i was we were we weren't at the company obviously at that time but i think it was

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around that prices uh 100 100 or something like that yeah well it was nice the reason i wanted to

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get you guys on was obviously you had the event a few months ago which was a big success

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where you showcased and launched the latest Trezor hardware wallet and to the casual observer

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on Twitter I think just you're mixed up with it being the launch of a new wallet that you

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know the latest upgrade i think a lot of people have missed you know the deeper story here of

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of the chip and how important that is and uh when and thank you for uh inviting me along i had a

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great time it was uh really cool i loved both of your presentations uh matthew you you had a great

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presentation which i'll come back to actually a nice bit of history and uh thomas you you talking

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about the chip and the challenges and everything that you guys went through to try and find,

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how do you make that leap forward rather than just the incremental upgrade?

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How do you make a leap forward in privacy and everything related around the chip, which

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obviously, correct me if I'm wrong, but we've never had a free open source chip before.

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Yeah, so maybe I can share just briefly the story. So basically, we had the model one that we showed

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earlier, and then we followed up with the model T, and those didn't have a secure element. And back

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in 2019, or something like that, we wanted to add one because that's where the industry was going,

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and we wanted to improve the physical security as well. So we were actually looking into the secure

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elements that are on the market you know we did some research and like we we looked into it for a

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few months and at the end we found one that we simply believed uh you know fits our needs and

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you know like feature wise it looked pretty pretty good so we started to implementing that

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and yeah long story short after a few maybe weeks i don't even think it was months just after some

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security evaluation we were basically able to uh break it apart so to speak uh we we were not using

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any like hardcore hardware equipment you know there is a lot of like laser injections or some

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you know huge hardware equipments where you're doing some very sophisticated stuff we haven't

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done anything like that we just simply you know used some features that the chip offered

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and we abuse them in the cryptographic way

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to be able to withdraw any secrets

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that it was supposed to store very secretly, right?

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And so that's the first part, right?

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That we were able to, yeah, withdraw the secrets.

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You've got this chip and you're testing it

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and testing it and testing it

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and you realize, oh shit, we can extract secrets from this.

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So this is not going to be...

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Exactly.

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Exactly. Without any, you know, information like the pin or something, right?

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Like it was only just the chip and we're just like testing and we're able to withdraw it.

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Yeah.

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Wow.

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And if I can throw a little bit of a Hollywood spice onto the story.

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Please do. And keep a long story long.

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Yeah, sorry.

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No, no, no, it's just...

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So, so yeah, these specialized chips are protected as Tomáš said, or as we call him Sushi,

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because he's called Sushankas, here comes Sushi.

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Sushi, brother.

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Sushi, brother.

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Anyway, so as these are specialized chips

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that protect the secrets from any physical attack, right?

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So you would need to get hold of the hardware device.

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You would try to extract the private keys

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at the hardware level, right?

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And Model 1 didn't have this kind of chip.

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So that's why we are even considering it

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because we are actually getting attacked

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by direct competitors for not having the secure elements.

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Our answer to that, by the way, was passphrase

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because passphrases are not stored on any device,

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therefore you cannot extract them possibly, right?

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So our answer, our sort of feature to that problem was,

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well, use passphrase because then you don't even need

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a secure element to begin with.

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But anyway, we moved on and we realized

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like we might consider it and the secure element

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we that sushi i mean that we have chosen and and tried was actually at the time used by our

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direct competitor that was pretty vocal about us not having secure elements and the story goes in

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the way that we uh we were sort of obliged or the the supplier of the secure element told us

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you can get the documentation, you can get the chip only if you sign an NDA.

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So we did.

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We signed the NDA reluctantly, but there was no other option

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because there was no other vendor, right, that would do otherwise.

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And as Tomáš said, within weeks, our back cryptographers found

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pretty trivial way how to extract the secrets from this chip.

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And yet we knew it was used by the direct competitors, right?

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like shitting on the language yeah yeah on you know like uh on daily basis on this and then uh

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but because we signed the nda we were not allowed to talk to them and to even tell them that we we

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found this problem so we talked to the supplier and we said look guys we found this problem uh

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this this vulnerability so we would like to announce it right because like ethos of you know

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open source development and then bitcoin etc if there is a problem like the community wants to

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talk about it and everybody wants to know about this and they basically said no uh you signed the

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nba and you cannot do that so that's how this whole story kind of so you couldn't even inform

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the the other hardware wallet uh companies that were using this trip no we couldn't we really just

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informed the supplier and i'm not even sure whether they informed their no i mean we we

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pushed them to do so like to inform their clients but you know we're at that time we were like a

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small fish to them so i mean then it was on to them but i'm yeah i have my doubts that they did

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but we we couldn't do that directly yeah like we we were not uh legally allowed to do so this is

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wow like the i mean we see the hardware wallet uh hardware while it was right uh on on twitter and

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And we've seen in the past, company XYZ attacking company ABC for not doing this, that, and the other thing, or not being fully private.

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You know, I'm more private than you, bro, and you're not doing the right thing.

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So you obviously suffered that, acted on it, and then found a vulnerability in it, but then were unable to share that.

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I mean, this is why everything needs to go free open source, right?

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It's just crazy.

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Yeah, exactly.

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The story doesn't get more self-explanatory than that, right?

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Like it's so obviously exactly as you say, the open source is the way.

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And also I would add to this also attacking your direct competitors.

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I mean, it's not something we want to do and we don't really do.

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We've never done it as a company as our marketing strategy,

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because honestly we think it's completely stupid.

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It's not good for, it's like doing disservice

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to the whole self space right So self of a hardware wallet it still fairly niche in the sense that you know just few percent of people are actually storing private keys in their hardware wallets And so just like doing this kind of um I not talking about just information

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about that there's vulnerability. That's definitely good, right? Like if, if you find a problem,

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we want to talk publicly, talk about it. We do it even with our own, you know, potential

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issues in the past, like if there would be some vulnerability, we actually openly proactively

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talk about it.

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And do you want to bug bounty as well?

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I know some people do that.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Right, okay.

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Exactly.

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So that's a good thing.

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But like viciously sort of attacking each other is not helpful, I believe, because it's

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ultimately scares people from a security that is by default, even without secure elements,

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already much stronger than any software or hard wallet can provide, right?

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So it kind of gives this like bad PR to the whole space, which is, I think,

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counterproductive for everybody.

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And why I'm saying it because mind you, these devices by nature of a hardware wallet, these

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are long term sort of private keys storage solutions, right?

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Like you would not buy hardware wallet every year or something as with your consumer electronics

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product.

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And therefore, these devices that we just talked about by these direct competitors are

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definitely still on the market, like are being used by people, right?

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And whether this patch has been done on some software level or not is, let's say, unclear.

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We don't know because like nobody could really talk about it.

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And that's by definition, this sort of obfuscation is by definition wrong, right?

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Like in the principle of full transparency.

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So the best case scenario here with your feedback to the chip supplier is they took this very seriously.

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They informed their existing clients.

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They figured out a patch and then they've moved on and upgraded their chip.

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The worst case scenario is, oh yeah, whatever, guys.

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Yeah, exactly.

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And I believe they upgraded the chips in the new generations.

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But the problem is, again, with hardware wallets, it's already there.

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the hardware level so that's one and secondly uh it is their business right so so and because they

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are protected by these ndas uh and we can then talk about the solution right like why what we

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think is the superior solution to this space but by because they are protected by dndas they don't

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really probably didn't reach out to all their customers and said oh guys we have sold you like

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a shitty product so uh sorry about that um other than other than hardware wallets what

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what would their other list of potential clients be just out of interest that

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uh i we don't know for sure because obviously again this is not a public information right

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who the customers are but i think it's anything that goes to uh that needs some secure elements

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So this can be maybe IDs, passports, credit cards, second factor tools.

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Yeah, it can be anything.

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Wow, I mean, that's pretty serious stuff.

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How many chip makers are in this business?

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Like how many competitors would they have?

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Like how many did you have to choose from?

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It really depends how you count it.

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um because so i i think the the big hardware names you know maybe there's like five of them

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um like you know st micro nxp and all of those um so i would say like maybe five companies but

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really it depends how you count that and then because like the usage the the way we use the

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secure elements is somewhat um particular to the hardware wallets so if you narrow it narrow it

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down for for that usage which by the way is that the user enters the pin and it gives them some

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secret uh yeah it narrows to i think we were looking into like three options that was basically

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what we were working with and some we didn't like right away and yeah then like this was at that

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time i think the best of those um but all right so take me back to trezor hq when you guys have

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because you know this this takes a long time to plan right this is this doesn't just happen

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overnight you've got to do a lot of due diligence a lot of research you've got to come up with

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design and everything like that and you know make the decision right we're making this upgrade this

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is exactly what we need this is what we want we've pinned it down to this company then your guys come

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to you and say yeah this is it doesn't work yeah that's basically it that's basically it

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no i mean so by the like in retrospect i think that because it was really exactly like that like

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i really think that's what basically happened like at that time uh so we were we were in the

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company but we were not in the c-level positions obviously we're not in the leadership but it was

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basically that like uh the we basically as a company concluded okay this doesn't like let's

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let's let's not do that like everything all vendors are uh bad let's just use the passphrase

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right that was the the idea till 2000 till three years ago or so two years ago and something like

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that um the problem with passphrase is that people forget it that's basically that you know that's

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unfortunately the reality of things um that's where my my favorite security motor comes in where

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there's this saying that the security at the cost of usability comes at the cost of security

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right that if you improve security but decrease the usability then you know it doesn't work out

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and i think this was exactly that because unfortunately the passphrase is great because

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it's not stored anywhere as much as sad but you know that's also the problem that it's

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not stored anyway because people unfortunately simply forgot forgot it right and i've that

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there were cases um you know that we unfortunately saw in our support that people were forgetting it

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or they mistyped because it was so complex that you know they were not able to to retrieve the

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funds so um this was a good idea a bit problematic on the usability side and then what i wanted to say

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like back in that time it was really as you've said that we're just like okay let's let's just

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not use it i think maybe back in time we should just move on to another vendor and like keep keep

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trying till we find some decent one uh because i think what we didn't realize at that time that

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the tropics square chip the our solution that we've made is going to take a really long time

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right i think we sort of believe that it will be in two years and it's going to be done like

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at the end it was five because yeah as i said somewhere you know hardware is hard and the the

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chip design is even harder like this takes a lot of money and a lot of knowledge and you know a lot

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of time so maybe back in time we we could have you know used something else maybe we would find some

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decent one i'm not sure uh maybe we should have kept trying but we wanted to have our own tropics

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square chip which we finally you know launched in the safe seven so tropic square let's let's talk

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about these guys um how yeah five years in the making this was the announcement that you made at

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the uh the event um it was look i've never looked into like chip industries that's why i've got so

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many uh questions about it and it's so important right in in bitcoin not only in our hardware

214
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wallets but also in in the mining realm where they're always trying to improve the chip technology

215
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so what is Tropic Square what have they managed to achieve and why is it so important yeah so

216
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there was actually this idea of a you know some kind of NDA free and open and transparent chip

217
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even before this whole story right like already maybe in 2018 our founders were thinking about

218
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okay let's make let's bring the open sourceness also to the hardware level right because we our

219
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code is open source everything is on github but of course that always meant the software part

220
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right we always had to use some some chips that are on the market and uh so this was the idea was

221
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maybe a year before this whole story happened but i think that was like the crucial point when when

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they were like okay let's really really do this because they like we really need to disrupt this

223
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industry and so that was like the final nail in the coffin in like let's do this and that's

224
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basically where the story starts in 2020 and uh also the maybe the original idea was to let's create

225
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uh you know a generic chip but then because of the story they they pivoted into let's make a secure

226
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element chip that is you know able to be it's able to be obtained without any ndas so you don't have

227
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to sign anything you just obtain the samples you can do whatever you want with it of course if you

228
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crack it hack it then again like feel free to talk about it because there's nothing restricting you

229
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to do so and uh that's one part and the other part is the opens openness right unfortunately

230
00:19:50,606 --> 00:19:56,606
tropic square is not fully open source you cannot really see like the details of everything because

231
00:19:56,606 --> 00:20:03,646
it's just not it's just not viable for medium-sized company like you would need a lot of more zeros

232
00:20:03,646 --> 00:20:11,086
at the at the end of your bank account and but what it is is that the vast majority of or or the

233
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the digital design is again available on github right so it's not that just the software part

234
00:20:16,526 --> 00:20:22,446
it's also that the hardware part is now available on on github so it's a it's a really huge shift

235
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in the industry that suddenly a you don't need to sign any legal documents and b the independent

236
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researchers can have a look on github and they can actually investigate and and you know uh

237
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look into the security itself, right?

238
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Maybe just to describe it better,

239
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maybe imagine academia, right?

240
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Or like some university researchers like they cannot sign papers They cannot sign legal papers with some big companies right that just that not really possible to them but here they can really just buy them and they can do

241
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whatever they want so it's way more open in the nature and they can do whatever they want with

242
00:21:00,572 --> 00:21:06,752
that right and that's basically how we believe that the security should be done that there is

243
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no obscurity there is no cloud of uh whatever obscurity is just yeah out in the open and can

244
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Anyone can have a look and investigate.

245
00:21:17,112 --> 00:21:29,012
So traditionally, if you're a fiat-run company and you had competitors out in the marketplace and you found this one particular solution, you would patent that thing up to the absolute eyeballs.

246
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You would have that company signed up in NDAs.

247
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You would have exclusivity agreements put in place.

248
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And then you would go out and market yourselves as the only company that can offer you.

249
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But no.

250
00:21:42,112 --> 00:21:52,612
You now, what can happen now is all of your competitors in the market can go and get that exact same chip and put it in their product as direct competition.

251
00:21:53,332 --> 00:21:53,692
Yeah, exactly.

252
00:21:53,832 --> 00:21:55,052
And by the way, it goes both ways.

253
00:21:55,172 --> 00:22:03,952
I mean, they are, you know, like we want to, because as Mati said maybe 10 minutes ago, so there is about, and correct me with the numbers, okay.

254
00:22:03,952 --> 00:22:11,192
There's maybe 300 million or 400 million of people in some sort of self-custody, right?

255
00:22:11,192 --> 00:22:12,832
That they have 500 million.

256
00:22:12,832 --> 00:22:13,832
No, no, no, three.

257
00:22:13,832 --> 00:22:14,832
Okay, so you said self-custody.

258
00:22:14,832 --> 00:22:15,832
Sorry, I meant all crypto.

259
00:22:15,832 --> 00:22:18,192
No, no, no, I mean like self-custody, right?

260
00:22:18,192 --> 00:22:23,552
So maybe, you know, software wallets, like big software wallets, but no hardware wallets.

261
00:22:23,552 --> 00:22:30,192
And only a tiny portion of that, like 10, 20 million out of that is actually the hardware

262
00:22:30,192 --> 00:22:31,852
self-custody, right?

263
00:22:31,852 --> 00:22:41,372
So like our goal is really to bring people into self-custody and it's less, it's way more

264
00:22:41,372 --> 00:22:44,312
that than, you know, fight all the competitors, right?

265
00:22:44,312 --> 00:22:49,412
So what I'm trying to say that if our competitors, you know, like Tropic Square, like they can

266
00:22:49,412 --> 00:22:52,052
use it as well because that exactly comes with that, right?

267
00:22:52,052 --> 00:22:57,212
Like we want to improve the industry as a whole, not just like a tiny thing in the Trezor

268
00:22:57,212 --> 00:22:58,212
device, right?

269
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So that's how we look at it.

270
00:22:59,812 --> 00:23:05,172
also goes the other way that if they break it apart like if they find some vulnerability inside

271
00:23:05,172 --> 00:23:10,612
the chip then you know we're gonna proudly stand by it and we say we're gonna say hey like that's

272
00:23:10,612 --> 00:23:17,012
totally that's the idea of it right like that's we're not gonna hide behind some uh documents or

273
00:23:17,012 --> 00:23:21,572
whatever if anyone finds anything we're gonna share it we're gonna talk about it publicly and

274
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we're gonna fix it right i'm not saying that there are any issues right because we've tested it quite

275
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extensively and really the best of best researchers had it on their desks and you know investigated it

276
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but i just want to also say that it goes both ways they are more than welcome to use it but

277
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they are more than welcome to break it as well because that's how we how we accomplish the best

278
00:23:40,452 --> 00:23:45,572
security that's possible let's say could you give us a little history about tropic square because

279
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obviously you know they're on your doorstep as well yeah so the i think it was pretty much

280
00:23:52,132 --> 00:23:58,692
summarized by Tomáš, but the main story from, I mean, let me say they're a different company than

281
00:23:58,692 --> 00:24:06,852
Chaser, right? So they're a separate team, they have their own management, etc. But from my

282
00:24:06,852 --> 00:24:15,012
perspective, I led the product team in Chaser before I became the CEO. And so I was really

283
00:24:15,012 --> 00:24:21,972
looking at it from the, let's say, angle of view of the story I described, right? So it was like,

284
00:24:21,972 --> 00:24:25,312
like let's try to get open source at the hardware level.

285
00:24:26,432 --> 00:24:28,132
Well, there are no solutions on the market,

286
00:24:28,132 --> 00:24:30,032
so let's figure it out, right?

287
00:24:30,032 --> 00:24:33,592
So that's pretty much how I view world in general.

288
00:24:33,592 --> 00:24:36,092
Like if there is a problem, you know,

289
00:24:36,092 --> 00:24:37,452
we should probably fix it.

290
00:24:38,712 --> 00:24:40,572
Of course, with the focus within the boundaries

291
00:24:40,572 --> 00:24:41,672
of our mission and vision,

292
00:24:41,672 --> 00:24:45,992
because there's thousands and millions of other problems

293
00:24:45,992 --> 00:24:49,472
that are just beyond what we can do as a company.

294
00:24:49,472 --> 00:24:51,852
But yeah, this felt something like we could,

295
00:24:51,852 --> 00:24:54,492
we could potentially tackle.

296
00:24:54,492 --> 00:24:59,292
I know from the founders view and stories

297
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that of course they were told the classical story

298
00:25:02,372 --> 00:25:04,792
of like they were told, guys, this is not possible.

299
00:25:04,792 --> 00:25:08,012
Just ditch the idea, you're stupid, right?

300
00:25:08,012 --> 00:25:12,732
So, and I think they've been told this many times before

301
00:25:12,732 --> 00:25:14,152
even including Trezor.

302
00:25:14,152 --> 00:25:18,892
So yeah, so I'm really glad the sort of the perseverance

303
00:25:18,892 --> 00:25:21,712
is there and that we actually delivered it to the market.

304
00:25:21,712 --> 00:25:25,532
And I'm also, by the way, super glad that we managed

305
00:25:25,532 --> 00:25:28,312
to implement it in Trezor Safe 7,

306
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which is our now flagship product.

307
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And I think possibly, quite frankly,

308
00:25:32,832 --> 00:25:35,872
one of the best hardware wallets on the market now.

309
00:25:35,872 --> 00:25:37,832
I mean, of course I'm sitting in the chair where,

310
00:25:37,832 --> 00:25:40,372
you know, I would be expected to say that,

311
00:25:40,372 --> 00:25:43,472
but I genuinely believe that like the feature set

312
00:25:43,472 --> 00:25:44,532
is pretty solid.

313
00:25:45,912 --> 00:25:49,972
And I'm glad, yeah, that the open source secure element

314
00:25:49,972 --> 00:25:54,092
made it to this product and that we were able to launch it.

315
00:25:54,092 --> 00:25:57,432
Because as Tomáš said, hardware is hard.

316
00:25:57,432 --> 00:26:00,332
There is this famous saying and the timelines there

317
00:26:00,332 --> 00:26:03,952
are super long and super sort of waterfall-ish

318
00:26:03,952 --> 00:26:06,712
in a way that you have to plan everything carefully.

319
00:26:06,712 --> 00:26:10,792
There is no space for an agile development

320
00:26:10,792 --> 00:26:12,292
as much as you could see in software.

321
00:26:12,292 --> 00:26:14,572
So I think that was the challenge as well.

322
00:26:14,572 --> 00:26:18,212
But again, yeah, we're very proud and happy that we made it.

323
00:26:18,212 --> 00:26:28,452
Yeah, like the fact that those two timelines, I mean, of Tropic Square and of Safe7 actually met at the end was pretty amazing to us as well.

324
00:26:28,452 --> 00:26:37,912
Of course, that was the goal, but yeah, it's hard because, of course, you need to rely on a lot of vendors, you know, and a lot of third parties and suppliers.

325
00:26:38,972 --> 00:26:40,972
Yeah, so we're really glad that we've made it.

326
00:26:41,092 --> 00:26:44,632
And of course, you're also aligning it with the bull market, right?

327
00:26:44,632 --> 00:26:49,752
so you're you're planning the blue market carefully for the q4 to happen well is there

328
00:26:49,752 --> 00:26:54,232
it didn't didn't really but i'm just kidding of course you cannot plan those things but uh

329
00:26:54,872 --> 00:27:00,072
but yeah i mean but quite frankly we uh we saw you know there was like uh this peak around let's

330
00:27:00,072 --> 00:27:06,792
say summer whatever and and and we were like uh yeah maybe some delays in the in the project could

331
00:27:06,792 --> 00:27:12,472
be playing to our benefit that we will launch you know the the product at the and sort of the peak

332
00:27:12,472 --> 00:27:18,552
uh season but um but yeah that's a different story so about the seasonality of the bitcoin

333
00:27:18,552 --> 00:27:23,832
price and it's and i think another cool part of the story is they are from the czech republic

334
00:27:25,432 --> 00:27:32,792
yeah so um yeah oh and and by the way that wasn't the the key part of my sort of keynote presentation

335
00:27:32,792 --> 00:27:39,832
uh at the at the day um because i was i myself asked the question okay what i'm going to talk

336
00:27:39,832 --> 00:27:45,352
about right so i don't like the idea just to like come out on the stage and say well this is the

337
00:27:45,352 --> 00:27:51,912
best product we built and these are the features we'll buy it here click here and boom so i was

338
00:27:51,912 --> 00:27:58,472
really looking for some something more meaningful honestly not just for just the media influencers

339
00:27:58,472 --> 00:28:05,432
just for myself for the company and to kind of show some bigger perspective how how we view things

340
00:28:05,432 --> 00:28:12,032
And this idea kind of led me to, okay, how come there are so many Bitcoin companies in

341
00:28:12,032 --> 00:28:13,132
the Czech Republic, right?

342
00:28:13,132 --> 00:28:17,392
To begin with, like, how come there are, I mean, there's a huge conference that is Bitcoin

343
00:28:17,392 --> 00:28:22,432
only, the mining pools were invented here, right?

344
00:28:22,432 --> 00:28:26,732
There are Bitcoin ATMs, there are paywalls.

345
00:28:26,732 --> 00:28:31,072
I mean, really, really a lot of companies.

346
00:28:31,072 --> 00:28:36,652
I was like, well, maybe when we invite, you know, uh, people such as yourself and, and

347
00:28:36,652 --> 00:28:40,832
all the other guests, maybe they would be wondering like, why the hell are we in Prague?

348
00:28:41,312 --> 00:28:41,592
Right.

349
00:28:41,592 --> 00:28:49,172
So, and I, and I strongly believe that it really has to do something with the communist

350
00:28:49,172 --> 00:28:55,312
era that has been here, you know, basically since the second world war till the 89.

351
00:28:55,312 --> 00:29:02,112
and the monetary reforms that was it called, which was basically, I mean,

352
00:29:02,112 --> 00:29:05,552
I called it like a robbery of a century, which is basically what happened

353
00:29:05,552 --> 00:29:11,752
because the long story short, the regime was going bankrupt

354
00:29:11,752 --> 00:29:16,312
and they tried to like sort of hash it and be like not to really publicly say,

355
00:29:16,312 --> 00:29:18,112
okay, we fucked up.

356
00:29:18,112 --> 00:29:22,472
And now this was the famous, I didn't know about this, but it was in your

357
00:29:22,472 --> 00:29:27,192
in your speech where the you have a president right or a prime minister but what's yeah yeah

358
00:29:27,192 --> 00:29:33,832
both both okay uh one of them announced like one day like everything's fine bro don't worry

359
00:29:34,712 --> 00:29:41,112
about the currency right what year was that it was 53 and 53 and you've been under communist

360
00:29:41,112 --> 00:29:49,192
regime since what 45 or uh i think later somewhere later yeah 48 or something like a few years after

361
00:29:49,192 --> 00:29:55,752
that yeah right and you both have grandparents i'm assuming that can tell you the stories of

362
00:29:55,752 --> 00:30:00,632
and perhaps even your parents might remember it from a very young age or the stories that they

363
00:30:00,632 --> 00:30:05,832
were told from their parents you know living under that regime yeah exactly during the the research

364
00:30:05,832 --> 00:30:09,592
for this keynote i actually talked to my grandparents and i really wondering i was

365
00:30:09,592 --> 00:30:16,072
wondering how how they felt my grandpa who is 93 actually worked at one of the

366
00:30:16,072 --> 00:30:22,792
uh because he was at the army it was like a compulsory you know like uh that you had to go

367
00:30:22,792 --> 00:30:29,752
to like exercise you need to go to the army and get the training so um so yeah he he worked even

368
00:30:29,752 --> 00:30:36,392
at one of these sort of exchanges so so yeah the the the president and i says like you don't have

369
00:30:36,392 --> 00:30:41,752
to worry like he says that it says it on the public radio by the way there is a story uh there's still

370
00:30:41,752 --> 00:30:49,672
that sort of like dispute how much of uh he said exactly those words because it's interesting

371
00:30:49,672 --> 00:30:55,272
there are accounts that they actually deleted it the actual recording so it's basically like

372
00:30:55,272 --> 00:30:59,272
like a knowledge that everybody knows about and they're like written articles around this

373
00:30:59,272 --> 00:31:03,512
but then the regime actually tried to delete it from like the official records or whatever

374
00:31:04,072 --> 00:31:08,232
because they were basically crooks you know they're trying to kind of hide their um how to say

375
00:31:08,232 --> 00:31:09,232
like a checks.

376
00:31:09,232 --> 00:31:20,918
And what was the currency at that point It was Czechoslovak Koruna Right Okay Yeah it was the official name And so we had banknotes etc

377
00:31:21,198 --> 00:31:24,598
And so I think it was like whatever, like Friday or something,

378
00:31:24,798 --> 00:31:27,838
the president to calm everybody down because mind you,

379
00:31:28,038 --> 00:31:33,038
there was like these monetary reforms were happening in the countries

380
00:31:33,238 --> 00:31:37,198
of the Soviet Union and around the Czech Republic, Czechoslovakia at the time,

381
00:31:37,718 --> 00:31:38,398
in other countries.

382
00:31:38,398 --> 00:31:42,718
So people were getting kind of scared and there was like shortages of food,

383
00:31:43,078 --> 00:31:46,718
you know, like, uh, electricity would be turned off and stuff like that.

384
00:31:46,718 --> 00:31:50,918
You know, after second world war, obviously, yeah, it was a lot of things were broken.

385
00:31:50,918 --> 00:31:51,158
Right.

386
00:31:51,178 --> 00:31:51,578
Exactly.

387
00:31:51,578 --> 00:31:53,118
So, so things were broken in general.

388
00:31:53,118 --> 00:31:57,258
So, but well, yeah, the communist ruling party definitely didn't help because

389
00:31:57,258 --> 00:31:59,998
everything was extremely like centrally planned.

390
00:32:00,538 --> 00:32:05,638
Um, the fifties were super tough in, um, like in terms of oppression of

391
00:32:05,638 --> 00:32:06,718
like freedoms as well.

392
00:32:06,718 --> 00:32:11,798
So people would be, you know, like, uh, imprisoned and killed for just speaking

393
00:32:11,798 --> 00:32:13,298
publicly about certain issues.

394
00:32:13,298 --> 00:32:13,518
Right.

395
00:32:13,518 --> 00:32:17,038
So they, uh, like really like these kind of, uh, super harsh.

396
00:32:17,818 --> 00:32:17,998
Yeah.

397
00:32:17,998 --> 00:32:18,898
Operations of freedom.

398
00:32:19,278 --> 00:32:23,758
And then while the state was going bankrupt, so they decided they will

399
00:32:23,818 --> 00:32:26,478
print a completely new currency.

400
00:32:26,538 --> 00:32:29,198
Uh, and they did it basically overnight.

401
00:32:29,238 --> 00:32:29,518
Right.

402
00:32:29,518 --> 00:32:33,838
Because they, they, they didn't, they wanted to, um, avoid the bank run.

403
00:32:33,838 --> 00:32:37,338
So they wanted to avoid people like freaking out and running on the bands and

404
00:32:37,338 --> 00:32:41,398
exchanging money or pulling out the money, et cetera, because the whole system

405
00:32:41,398 --> 00:32:44,638
would collapse like even more or it would be in more problems.

406
00:32:45,078 --> 00:32:49,798
So yeah, they printed a new currency and they announced it in a way actually on

407
00:32:49,798 --> 00:32:55,538
Saturday, I think 5 PM or something like this after everything, after all the

408
00:32:55,538 --> 00:32:57,138
shops closed and the banks closed.

409
00:32:57,138 --> 00:33:00,138
So nobody could really like do these rounds.

410
00:33:00,138 --> 00:33:09,018
roads, right? So, so kind of the level of how to say like crookedness or like, you know, it's like,

411
00:33:09,018 --> 00:33:14,058
it's, it's really unheard of. I mean, I was reading about this. I mean, we, we get thought about this

412
00:33:14,058 --> 00:33:18,858
also in school. So I actually remembered even from school somewhat, well, not, not in detail,

413
00:33:18,858 --> 00:33:25,098
but like, I remember we, we were taught about this, but anyway, I'm reading about this and it really

414
00:33:25,098 --> 00:33:29,258
makes you so fucking angry. You know, it's like, it's like, how come, how is it possible, you know,

415
00:33:29,258 --> 00:33:31,578
that these people were, yeah, crooks.

416
00:33:31,858 --> 00:33:34,718
And by the way, even at the highest level of the regime,

417
00:33:34,858 --> 00:33:36,598
they were not even educated people.

418
00:33:36,738 --> 00:33:38,338
They were like, you know,

419
00:33:38,398 --> 00:33:41,438
like they didn't have like a university degrees, etc.

420
00:33:41,618 --> 00:33:44,258
So basically everything was based on connections

421
00:33:44,258 --> 00:33:47,558
and like pro bono relationships, etc.

422
00:33:47,558 --> 00:33:50,818
And they were Czechoslovakian people in charge,

423
00:33:50,978 --> 00:33:53,898
but they had very direct relationships

424
00:33:53,898 --> 00:33:56,238
and probably very controllable by the regime.

425
00:33:56,478 --> 00:33:59,218
Is that the kind of people that would have been...

426
00:33:59,258 --> 00:34:04,858
running this at the time exactly so there was a huge influence by the the russians you know and

427
00:34:04,858 --> 00:34:10,138
the the the soviet union basically i mean the the new currency got actually printed i think in

428
00:34:10,138 --> 00:34:16,378
romanian if i'm not mistaken which was under the rule as well in secret yeah in secret so nobody

429
00:34:16,378 --> 00:34:20,778
knew about this and so they printed it all in secret in romania they had it all stacked up

430
00:34:20,778 --> 00:34:25,818
ready to go and then so he comes out on a friday and says don't worry everybody everything's fine

431
00:34:25,818 --> 00:34:28,538
you know, we're safe here, you're protected,

432
00:34:28,718 --> 00:34:30,798
don't worry what's going on in the surrounding countries

433
00:34:30,798 --> 00:34:32,718
because obviously the surrounding countries

434
00:34:32,718 --> 00:34:35,838
are just getting rug pulled and the Czechs can see what's going on.

435
00:34:36,598 --> 00:34:39,318
And then wait till 5 p.m. on a Saturday,

436
00:34:40,358 --> 00:34:43,518
rug pull everybody, you can't do anything on a Sunday,

437
00:34:43,618 --> 00:34:45,678
all the shops are closed, all the banks are closed,

438
00:34:45,678 --> 00:34:49,678
and then come Monday morning, I mean, just crazy.

439
00:34:49,678 --> 00:34:55,278
Yeah, people had just one month to exchange their cash holdings.

440
00:34:55,278 --> 00:34:59,338
at a rate, what was it, like five to one, I think,

441
00:34:59,338 --> 00:35:04,838
up until the amounts of just 300 korunas,

442
00:35:04,878 --> 00:35:07,078
which would be like 100 bucks of today's value, right?

443
00:35:07,158 --> 00:35:10,338
So if you had that value,

444
00:35:10,478 --> 00:35:11,778
you could exchange it for the new currency,

445
00:35:11,919 --> 00:35:16,378
but you would get only one-fifth of that value back, right?

446
00:35:16,398 --> 00:35:18,919
So you would get 60 korunas back.

447
00:35:18,919 --> 00:35:20,959
And everything that was sitting in a bank account

448
00:35:20,959 --> 00:35:22,818
just got switched automatically.

449
00:35:22,818 --> 00:35:30,978
But even at higher rates. So it was, I think up to 50 to one depending on, it was like done

450
00:35:30,978 --> 00:35:37,778
progressively. So it was, so at the worst cases, you would retain only 2% of all that value.

451
00:35:37,778 --> 00:35:44,658
And then even the products that would, you know, would be considered like super safe investments,

452
00:35:44,658 --> 00:35:50,018
like state issued bonds and life insurances were actually pronounced like voided. So,

453
00:35:50,018 --> 00:35:57,058
so basically the state would say uh i actually have a also like a print of the of the article

454
00:35:57,058 --> 00:36:02,419
like that i think was issued on sunday morning they basically it was like a state controlled media

455
00:36:02,419 --> 00:36:07,298
so it's like a newspaper and i still have i mean not the physical newspaper but they found it in

456
00:36:07,298 --> 00:36:13,058
the in the archives and then yeah it basically says like well these products are voided so

457
00:36:13,058 --> 00:36:17,858
so if if you had any life insurance and like there's it doesn't count any longer state bonds

458
00:36:17,858 --> 00:36:25,858
avoided as well which by the way again like um the it was uh the state was doing everything so to

459
00:36:25,858 --> 00:36:31,218
speak for the working class right that was the their messaging and so they were trying to also

460
00:36:31,218 --> 00:36:37,058
sell these products to the working class like that like that like the bonds right so so imagine and

461
00:36:37,058 --> 00:36:42,419
that gets me back to the story like why bitcoin and why there is so much skepticism because i think

462
00:36:42,419 --> 00:36:47,378
that's the answer i think there are so many bitcoin companies and um like freedom technologies

463
00:36:47,378 --> 00:36:52,578
in and built in czech republic and the czech republic because i believe there's like a huge

464
00:36:52,578 --> 00:36:59,538
skepticism towards the establishment towards the the government and and and yeah like i i i think

465
00:37:00,338 --> 00:37:06,178
i wonder what what tomas's uh experiences are but like in my family you know we would always talk

466
00:37:06,178 --> 00:37:10,178
about it since the childhood like the communists were bad you know and they've done all these

467
00:37:10,178 --> 00:37:15,778
things wrong and and yeah so i think that's that's how we how we how we got here

468
00:37:17,618 --> 00:37:23,378
yeah um i mean it's also because uh like every time i've heard these stories you know it can

469
00:37:23,378 --> 00:37:28,018
feel a bit abstract to you know to listeners and whatever but what i feel is really crazy

470
00:37:28,018 --> 00:37:33,858
that it's 70 years right and 70 years it's nothing it's two generations right or like

471
00:37:33,858 --> 00:37:39,459
exactly like it's our grandparents you know lives so it is not that far away right and

472
00:37:40,178 --> 00:37:47,298
um that's always you know it's really good to to remind this to ourselves because you know there is

473
00:37:47,298 --> 00:37:54,658
a lot of uh you know a lot of scam and a lot of weird projects in the whole crypto industry like

474
00:37:54,658 --> 00:37:59,538
a lot of craziness and now the politics are getting into it you know institutionalization

475
00:37:59,538 --> 00:38:06,178
of that and it is really getting a big industry and of course there is a lot of uh scam and bad

476
00:38:06,178 --> 00:38:12,098
bad stuff inside that. But then I think it's really important to also remind ourselves these

477
00:38:12,098 --> 00:38:19,778
roots, right? Because Bitcoin started as some kind of sort of, you know, it went against the

478
00:38:19,778 --> 00:38:24,018
governments and institutions as well, right? So I think it's kind of important to remind ourselves

479
00:38:24,018 --> 00:38:29,858
these stories because, you know, I'm not saying it's going to happen next year, but like, who knows

480
00:38:29,858 --> 00:38:34,738
what's going to happen in five or 10, right? Like these changes, these things can change very

481
00:38:34,738 --> 00:38:42,658
drastically so i think it's important to to remind ourselves these stories yeah absolutely and they

482
00:38:42,658 --> 00:38:48,018
can change even quicker now because of technology and we know the central banks around the world are

483
00:38:48,018 --> 00:38:53,939
piloting cbdc central bank digital coins so you could literally have christine lagarde tell you

484
00:38:53,939 --> 00:39:00,738
on a friday night don't worry everybody the world isn't going to and uh your euro is going to be you

485
00:39:00,738 --> 00:39:03,939
you know, one euro is one euro, like everything's fine.

486
00:39:04,118 --> 00:39:08,558
And then all the same shit on Saturday night, everything's a CBDC.

487
00:39:09,118 --> 00:39:15,358
Everything in your bank account is now equal to, you know, maybe, like you said, choose a ratio.

488
00:39:15,358 --> 00:39:18,919
But you've now been converted to a central bank digital coin.

489
00:39:19,459 --> 00:39:26,798
And that is now worth a fraction of what you had stacked your euro throughout the last 10 to 15, 20 years of your work in life.

490
00:39:27,278 --> 00:39:29,738
Yeah. And by the way, easy for them to implement.

491
00:39:29,738 --> 00:39:59,578
Yeah, exactly. And by the way, there were stories in the 50s where people were, you know, because they were these rumors, right, that it could happen and all that. So there were people that were actually considering buying a furniture, some unique furniture or paintings or like whatever that holds value, like, regardless of the currency. But then they've heard the president saying, hey, don't worry. So maybe they didn't, right. And then the other day, they were screwed. So that's exactly where Bitcoin comes in.

492
00:39:59,578 --> 00:40:05,178
right because that's just exactly why we have that because paintings and whatever they are a bit more

493
00:40:05,178 --> 00:40:10,538
complicated to transact and and buy and all that but with bitcoin this really changes the game so

494
00:40:11,419 --> 00:40:19,338
um yeah yeah and all this these talk people the the uh the naive or the uneducated us i guess that

495
00:40:19,338 --> 00:40:23,178
they will hear like the term a debt jubilee and think oh yeah that'd be great i won't have to pay

496
00:40:23,178 --> 00:40:28,939
my money no no no guys it's a debt jubilee for them not for you like they cancel your insurance

497
00:40:28,939 --> 00:40:33,638
policies, your life insurance, you know, your bonds and whatever else, they're gone. It's their

498
00:40:33,638 --> 00:40:40,278
debt that they're going to set themselves free of. And you're just going to get wrecked. Yeah,

499
00:40:40,278 --> 00:40:46,598
it was a great talk. And there was one very poignant moment when all of this started coming

500
00:40:46,598 --> 00:40:52,158
to an end. And how did they how did they celebrate that when they finally kicked out the regime,

501
00:40:52,158 --> 00:40:57,718
because they were dangling something on in the streets and on the balconies that was very,

502
00:40:57,718 --> 00:41:03,878
um when it brings us full circle to where what what you're doing today and why we have private keys

503
00:41:04,838 --> 00:41:11,158
yeah i thought it was a beautiful symbolism honestly so during the demonstrations uh the

504
00:41:12,439 --> 00:41:19,959
leading to um yeah 17th november for 89 um or like demonstrations and stuff and people would be

505
00:41:19,959 --> 00:41:25,718
jingling the their keys because it was like making this rattling noise and the message was like for

506
00:41:25,718 --> 00:41:27,718
for the communists to finally go home.

507
00:41:27,718 --> 00:41:28,898
So that was the idea.

508
00:41:29,798 --> 00:41:32,578
And there are obviously like a lot of photos

509
00:41:32,578 --> 00:41:35,618
and there are heroes that they were celebrated

510
00:41:35,618 --> 00:41:36,459
back in the day.

511
00:41:36,459 --> 00:41:39,919
So I just thought it was like a nice symbolism for

512
00:41:39,944 --> 00:41:42,824
like a freedom technology and now we can do it digitally, right?

513
00:41:42,824 --> 00:41:49,304
So, so the cool thing is, you know, as we are talking about the paintings or some memorabilia

514
00:41:49,304 --> 00:41:57,344
or whatever. So, well, what if we had, uh, amazing, you know, star value digitally and

515
00:41:57,344 --> 00:42:02,384
what do you think would protect it? Right. And, and our answer is, well, you do that,

516
00:42:02,384 --> 00:42:08,084
I have that. I mean, it's called Bitcoin and it's called hardware wallet. So, so, uh, so

517
00:42:08,084 --> 00:42:13,084
I think that's very cool and that's ultimately why we are here and why,

518
00:42:14,284 --> 00:42:18,784
I don't know, this is our mission favorite job, I would say.

519
00:42:18,784 --> 00:42:19,784
How to say it?

520
00:42:19,784 --> 00:42:23,584
Yeah, our really passion to do this, right?

521
00:42:23,584 --> 00:42:28,084
And to tie it all together as well, like the idea of the keys and jangling them.

522
00:42:28,084 --> 00:42:30,684
I thought I'd love to say, do you have any videos of that?

523
00:42:30,684 --> 00:42:33,284
Or I know you had a picture in there.

524
00:42:33,284 --> 00:42:34,784
Yeah, absolutely.

525
00:42:34,784 --> 00:42:39,524
there, if you go on YouTube there, you will definitely find, you know, if you if you put

526
00:42:39,524 --> 00:42:42,704
Velvet Revolution, you will get a lot of it.

527
00:42:42,704 --> 00:42:45,104
It's called Velvet because, you know, it was nonviolent.

528
00:42:45,104 --> 00:42:46,784
So that's that's basically that.

529
00:42:46,784 --> 00:42:48,824
But yeah, you find a lot of people in the street.

530
00:42:49,244 --> 00:42:53,144
So the Velvet Revolution is 17th November 1989.

531
00:42:53,144 --> 00:42:57,064
Obviously, there's like the square you can visit in Prague.

532
00:42:58,064 --> 00:43:01,724
For those that aren't aware, what happened that day?

533
00:43:01,724 --> 00:43:10,364
yeah so if i'm uh if i how old were you how old were you at that at that point well i was

534
00:43:10,364 --> 00:43:19,424
two two years before being made so right okay yeah i was i was not there uh i would have been 13 by

535
00:43:19,424 --> 00:43:30,824
the way nice um so um yeah so i basically as tomar said it was relatively peaceful so there

536
00:43:30,824 --> 00:43:35,704
demonstration there were people you know that got some beating and stuff like that but it was

537
00:43:35,704 --> 00:43:40,424
relatively peaceful compared to other countries uh you know where the police would i don't know

538
00:43:40,424 --> 00:43:47,224
open fire into like crowd of people etc that didn't happen here um but yeah basically the

539
00:43:47,224 --> 00:43:53,784
soviet union was scrambling like the their influence in the region were were crumbling

540
00:43:53,784 --> 00:44:02,124
and that's why ultimately the regime here basically gave up and and kind of said okay

541
00:44:02,124 --> 00:44:07,664
you're okay to go full democracy now by the way i even read some books around this but like

542
00:44:07,664 --> 00:44:13,464
it's not also like the story is also not as how to say it was beautiful that like one day they

543
00:44:13,464 --> 00:44:18,644
would leave everything and everything was perfect because the 90s were pretty crazy pretty crazy i

544
00:44:18,644 --> 00:44:22,264
think here as well like it was like so much corruption right because you have again like

545
00:44:22,264 --> 00:44:29,544
years and years, like two generations or more of people basically trying to, like first they are

546
00:44:29,544 --> 00:44:35,804
like super like secretive because there you had a lot of sort of the, the, the secret police,

547
00:44:35,804 --> 00:44:40,324
you know, listening to your conversation and et cetera, again, like big operations of freedoms.

548
00:44:40,604 --> 00:44:46,884
So people would like keep, so, so to speak, the cards to their chest. So that's one. Uh, but also

549
00:44:46,884 --> 00:44:52,244
yeah like a lot of corruption were doing was obviously i mean the state was kind of uh there

550
00:44:52,244 --> 00:44:57,684
was so much like black market stuff and and these things and of course that like you you're not able

551
00:44:57,684 --> 00:45:02,324
to eradicate that like one day right like from one day on it would say okay this is new thing

552
00:45:02,324 --> 00:45:09,284
the whole constitution needs to change you know like the new yeah so so yeah the 90s were also

553
00:45:09,284 --> 00:45:15,924
i think quite quite crazy uh but again i was just reading from books right so i was just i was born

554
00:45:15,924 --> 00:45:21,844
in 91 um yeah i mean it doesn't happen from day to day right they were like already in the november

555
00:45:21,844 --> 00:45:26,164
there were like student marches like already a lot of them and there was some beating of the

556
00:45:26,164 --> 00:45:31,284
students so it kind of you know uh got together and then on the 17th of november i'm not even

557
00:45:31,284 --> 00:45:36,564
sure why we date it to that day uh because you know it happened throughout november and the

558
00:45:36,564 --> 00:45:43,364
months around and so so did it in in the rest of the the east block right so um yeah it didn't

559
00:45:43,364 --> 00:45:50,404
happen in one particular day but uh what is somewhat uh unusual maybe is that yeah it was

560
00:45:50,404 --> 00:45:57,444
really the the government basically handed power to you know to the protesters if i simplify things

561
00:45:57,444 --> 00:46:02,804
a lot right it was not no shooting or and stuff so in that sense it was kind of common that's

562
00:46:02,804 --> 00:46:07,924
that's why it's velvet revolution but exactly as matthi said and it took a very long time to

563
00:46:07,924 --> 00:46:10,624
to improve a lot of stuff.

564
00:46:11,744 --> 00:46:13,224
So yeah, back to the private keys.

565
00:46:13,724 --> 00:46:17,524
Like the final cherry on top of the cake is BIP39

566
00:46:17,524 --> 00:46:21,724
came right out of Prague again,

567
00:46:21,904 --> 00:46:24,444
right out of, well, Satoshi Labs.

568
00:46:26,024 --> 00:46:30,204
Yeah, so again, I think it was one of the biggest,

569
00:46:30,204 --> 00:46:37,304
the most impactful innovation that came into the crypto world

570
00:46:37,304 --> 00:46:41,404
and it was born here by the founders of the Satoshi Labs group,

571
00:46:41,664 --> 00:46:45,284
by the same guys that also started Tropic and that started Chazer

572
00:46:45,284 --> 00:46:47,364
and that started Vexel.

573
00:46:49,224 --> 00:46:54,844
And yeah, that was the idea how to make the private keys readable,

574
00:46:55,124 --> 00:46:57,824
how we can make sure that we are not going to make any mistakes

575
00:46:57,824 --> 00:47:02,424
in that super long Wi-Fi password, as they call it, to simplify it.

576
00:47:02,424 --> 00:47:10,184
and uh and yeah now as we said 300 plus million users use it not just in hardware words obviously

577
00:47:10,744 --> 00:47:18,184
but in in the software uh wallet space which is quite uh quite cool and because it was given to

578
00:47:18,184 --> 00:47:26,424
the world uh as a open source innovation uh this is this is not that known fact i actually try to

579
00:47:26,424 --> 00:47:32,584
like remind everybody this is where this innovation came from but uh well yeah we we are not in

580
00:47:32,584 --> 00:47:37,144
control of this right at least in in its own life and that's what's kind of beautiful about this

581
00:47:37,144 --> 00:47:41,464
because again it's open source and anybody can use it and they can build their products on top of it

582
00:47:42,264 --> 00:47:48,904
so so i think this impact has been huge for uh for for the whole crypto industry not just

583
00:47:48,904 --> 00:47:54,024
security hardware was but for everybody in the software space as well yeah and maybe just if i

584
00:47:54,024 --> 00:48:01,304
if i can add actually before i joined trezor i was always like contemplating and thinking okay so

585
00:48:01,304 --> 00:48:06,664
you have it on this device okay that's cool but what if i lose it right or how do they do the

586
00:48:06,664 --> 00:48:13,224
backup and i before i joined i always thought okay but they can they're sending it to to to

587
00:48:13,224 --> 00:48:18,504
dropbox or some cloud solution anyway right like they have to because otherwise like like you need

588
00:48:18,504 --> 00:48:24,344
to put the backup somewhere right and then i when i've joined and i've learned about the the standard

589
00:48:24,344 --> 00:48:30,184
and just the fact that you've write down some some words and then everything is derived from those

590
00:48:30,184 --> 00:48:38,744
words i i was pretty astonished so uh yeah i i know i've read some stories that you know 15 years

591
00:48:38,744 --> 00:48:44,024
ago like or whatever like at the beginnings people when they were using bitcoin core like the original

592
00:48:44,024 --> 00:48:50,904
wallet it always created like a file that contained 50 addresses or something like that

593
00:48:50,904 --> 00:48:56,824
and people usually did back up that file somehow they somehow managed that but every time it you

594
00:48:56,824 --> 00:49:03,144
you used more than 50 addresses it created another file which kind of people didn't know or they

595
00:49:03,144 --> 00:49:07,784
forgot and they didn't back up that part right and i think there was a lot of bitcoin lost in that

596
00:49:07,784 --> 00:49:12,264
way that people backed up just the first part but not the second which doesn't happen with the

597
00:49:12,264 --> 00:49:16,904
standard right like you just write down the words and then you have as much addresses as you need so

598
00:49:17,464 --> 00:49:24,504
i think it's it's a great concept you need a really great um you know push for the industry or

599
00:49:24,504 --> 00:49:30,664
something the industry can use also a bit tough to explain i think we're also you know because

600
00:49:30,664 --> 00:49:35,144
i i didn't know myself before i joined the company so that's also what we're trying to do

601
00:49:35,144 --> 00:49:41,224
is educate the users that okay you really need to treat this with with respect that you really need

602
00:49:41,224 --> 00:49:46,184
to hide it well don't you know don't give it to anyone and all that because i think for a lot of

603
00:49:46,184 --> 00:49:51,784
people the concept is very tough you know of of something like that that you you have 12 words

604
00:49:51,784 --> 00:49:58,424
that are actually representing your whole wealth that's yeah a bit unusual so what were you doing

605
00:49:58,424 --> 00:50:03,864
before trezo then you just hinted that uh i didn't do origin stories yet i completely forgot about

606
00:50:03,864 --> 00:50:10,824
that we were talking too much yeah sure so i actually um i'm here from the from like the

607
00:50:10,824 --> 00:50:16,184
technical side of things so i've actually studied uh computer security and cryptography so i'm

608
00:50:16,184 --> 00:50:21,944
actually from from that area i remember already at the end of the university you know there was

609
00:50:21,944 --> 00:50:26,424
some professor that that mentioned that there is this bitcoin it was in the very early beginnings

610
00:50:26,424 --> 00:50:33,784
it was pretty cool um unfortunately i was spending uh money on beer and not on bitcoin uh so that

611
00:50:33,784 --> 00:50:40,184
was the biggest mistake and uh yeah and then i then i went to cloudflare uh you know the cdn

612
00:50:40,184 --> 00:50:46,264
provider for a brief for some time uh again doing mostly cryptography and security and then i've

613
00:50:46,264 --> 00:50:52,104
joined trezor um eight years ago which you know in the in this industry eight years is like 50

614
00:50:52,104 --> 00:51:00,344
years in the normal world so yeah that's my story matter well uh my background is in music so i

615
00:51:00,344 --> 00:51:10,024
actually studied music in high school and then i moved to um like music business education um

616
00:51:10,584 --> 00:51:16,504
so i actually went through went to berkeley college of music in in boston for some for just

617
00:51:16,504 --> 00:51:22,024
like a semester was like my dream you know to because it's like the mecca of jazz and i was

618
00:51:22,024 --> 00:51:29,304
always interested in just quite a lot so uh so yeah i've done that and then um were you playing

619
00:51:29,304 --> 00:51:34,904
instruments or was it more yeah yeah so i started with classical guitar so that was my background

620
00:51:36,024 --> 00:51:42,264
now i may mostly play uh yeah like wannabe jazz but uh i'm not like professional in it but i play

621
00:51:42,264 --> 00:51:48,104
with my friends who are professionals we actually have a gig tonight so uh so so i've been practicing

622
00:51:48,104 --> 00:51:53,784
lately uh somewhat uh so it's a it's something i still keep uh you know in my life which which i'm

623
00:51:53,784 --> 00:51:59,904
I'm super happy with because it's like a great, um, how to say like activity,

624
00:51:59,944 --> 00:52:10,251
you know like uh it just like people management and leadership but like it completely something different else And uh but yeah I was always interested in also like entrepreneurship you know

625
00:52:10,251 --> 00:52:13,071
startups, uh, scaling companies.

626
00:52:13,091 --> 00:52:13,311
Yeah.

627
00:52:13,311 --> 00:52:16,531
People management, that's something I've always done even at school and I would

628
00:52:16,531 --> 00:52:19,431
organize like projects and people around some ideas.

629
00:52:20,031 --> 00:52:22,371
So I guess that was kind of natural in that sense.

630
00:52:22,931 --> 00:52:28,091
And, and, and yeah, because I mean, I was always interested in like in technology

631
00:52:28,091 --> 00:52:28,451
in general.

632
00:52:28,451 --> 00:52:30,131
Like I really liked tech startups.

633
00:52:30,131 --> 00:52:32,691
That was my, yeah, my thing at school.

634
00:52:33,891 --> 00:52:36,791
And then, yeah, one thing led to another

635
00:52:36,791 --> 00:52:38,451
and I simply applied for a job.

636
00:52:38,451 --> 00:52:43,451
So Trezor back then had maybe 30 plus people,

637
00:52:45,251 --> 00:52:49,271
just engineers and outsourced the kind of the design

638
00:52:49,271 --> 00:52:51,211
and product management function completely.

639
00:52:51,211 --> 00:52:54,031
So I actually became the first product manager

640
00:52:54,031 --> 00:52:56,211
and I built the product team.

641
00:52:56,211 --> 00:53:00,391
And then, yeah, with Sushi, we just kind of kept fixing more and more stuff.

642
00:53:00,531 --> 00:53:05,191
And we also like broke some, probably probably some as well.

643
00:53:05,831 --> 00:53:08,731
And we, the company was growing.

644
00:53:08,731 --> 00:53:09,031
Right.

645
00:53:09,031 --> 00:53:13,411
So it's like, I, I generally, it was like probably 30, 35 people.

646
00:53:13,411 --> 00:53:14,691
Now we are 200 plus.

647
00:53:14,691 --> 00:53:17,031
So, so that's yeah.

648
00:53:17,751 --> 00:53:18,291
Yeah.

649
00:53:18,451 --> 00:53:18,591
Yeah.

650
00:53:18,591 --> 00:53:20,331
We actually grew, grew together, right.

651
00:53:20,331 --> 00:53:24,351
That I I've joined as an engineer or programmer slash cryptographer and

652
00:53:24,351 --> 00:53:27,951
Maty joined as a product manager and then we went the managerial way.

653
00:53:27,951 --> 00:53:29,031
So yeah, we're here.

654
00:53:29,031 --> 00:53:30,351
It's like a marriage.

655
00:53:30,351 --> 00:53:31,071
It's funny.

656
00:53:31,071 --> 00:53:34,851
That's what my wife says that Maty is my second wife.

657
00:53:36,471 --> 00:53:40,851
Yeah, well, it's really, it's quite, it's super nice because I mean,

658
00:53:40,851 --> 00:53:44,791
I was speaking for myself, but it's quite,

659
00:53:44,811 --> 00:53:48,291
it's quite cute almost like because I would think something,

660
00:53:48,351 --> 00:53:53,331
I start writing the message to Sushi or I will mention something to him and he

661
00:53:53,331 --> 00:53:58,451
would be like, oh yeah, I was just about to say, you know, so, and it just keeps happening

662
00:53:58,451 --> 00:53:59,451
to us.

663
00:53:59,451 --> 00:54:04,511
So like, because I think we are seeing the company for the same time from the same perspective,

664
00:54:04,511 --> 00:54:06,451
you know, so, so it's kind of nice.

665
00:54:06,451 --> 00:54:09,011
So we really are partners in crime for in the sense.

666
00:54:09,011 --> 00:54:10,011
So, yeah.

667
00:54:10,011 --> 00:54:12,011
Good to hear.

668
00:54:12,011 --> 00:54:15,511
Now, to bring it back to the chip.

669
00:54:15,511 --> 00:54:22,571
A lot of people might just think it's a buzzword marketing ploy, but the term quantum ready.

670
00:54:22,571 --> 00:54:52,551
Oh, yeah. So maybe let me start broadly. So the discussion about quantum computers, you know, is kind of heating up. So as I've mentioned, I've actually studied, you know, computer security. And I remember already, you know, at that time, you know, there were these mentions about these problems, but like really, let's say 20 years or 15 years ago, like it was always in the sense of, okay,

671
00:54:53,191 --> 00:55:00,791
maybe in next generation or in far far future this is going to be a problem right but it was never

672
00:55:00,791 --> 00:55:06,391
tangible at all it was always very abstract well which it is still this day but at that time it was

673
00:55:06,391 --> 00:55:13,111
even more right and at that time i was really okay this is cool but you know that doesn't really make

674
00:55:13,111 --> 00:55:18,311
much sense to worry about that now because that's just for for the future generations to to look into

675
00:55:19,031 --> 00:55:25,431
um that sort of changed and really there is some progression in the in the world of quantum

676
00:55:25,431 --> 00:55:31,111
computers um you know we're still they are still not around the corner we we cannot still we don't

677
00:55:31,111 --> 00:55:36,311
have them it's very tough to build them uh it's really they are the best researchers all over the

678
00:55:36,311 --> 00:55:43,191
world looking into this but uh you know the consequences if there would be one are really

679
00:55:43,191 --> 00:55:50,391
enormous right so i've been to a conference years back and i really like the the talk that there was

680
00:55:50,391 --> 00:55:56,711
one slide which said don't panic quantum computers are not there it will take a long time for for

681
00:55:56,711 --> 00:56:02,071
everyone to build them you know it's it's really far away and all that and then there was the other

682
00:56:02,071 --> 00:56:08,231
slide which said panic maybe a little bit because the consequences of those quantum computers are

683
00:56:08,231 --> 00:56:15,511
enormous right and the consequences of those are that there are algorithms that are basically able

684
00:56:15,511 --> 00:56:22,631
to crack the the current cryptography that bitcoin is built on but not just bitcoin right everything

685
00:56:22,631 --> 00:56:30,231
the whole e-commerce internet uh government stuff whatever like really it's used everywhere right so

686
00:56:30,231 --> 00:56:35,351
it is not problem particular to bitcoin or cryptocurrencies it's a problem uh you know

687
00:56:35,351 --> 00:56:43,831
to society as as in general and that's basically why there is a there was a competition already

688
00:56:43,831 --> 00:56:51,111
since 2016. or no apologies 2019 well i don't remember the dates but there was a you know

689
00:56:51,111 --> 00:56:56,471
competition by the national institute for standardization like a u.s entity that is

690
00:56:56,471 --> 00:57:01,991
actually asking for so-called post-quantum algorithms which are special algorithms that

691
00:57:02,631 --> 00:57:08,151
are not vulnerable to these quantum computers right so they just use different types of

692
00:57:08,151 --> 00:57:16,231
cryptography that is not uh vulnerable to to these quantum computers and it's a competition that

693
00:57:16,231 --> 00:57:23,831
finished just last year it's just still evolving to to some degree uh i've just last week there was

694
00:57:23,831 --> 00:57:29,911
a conference uh here in prague that was meant for cryptography and there was one of the co-authors

695
00:57:29,911 --> 00:57:32,671
of one of those winners of this competition.

696
00:57:32,671 --> 00:57:36,111
And he was, you know, talking about the algorithm.

697
00:57:36,111 --> 00:57:37,351
So it was pretty cool.

698
00:57:37,351 --> 00:57:40,951
Of course, you know, my brain is not functioning that well

699
00:57:40,951 --> 00:57:42,791
as when I was at university.

700
00:57:42,791 --> 00:57:48,031
So it's kind of hard to grasp, but I'm still at least, you know, getting some pieces.

701
00:57:49,111 --> 00:57:49,911
But yeah, back to it.

702
00:57:49,911 --> 00:57:55,351
So there are algorithms that are, you know, able to withstand the quantum threat.

703
00:57:55,991 --> 00:58:03,591
and now i'm getting back to the to the quantum readiness uh we were thinking basically we're

704
00:58:03,591 --> 00:58:09,111
just talking with our cryptographers here in the company okay so is there something that we could

705
00:58:09,111 --> 00:58:14,391
do already right because we we felt that the discussion is starting up and and which is a

706
00:58:14,391 --> 00:58:21,831
good thing and the thing is that bitcoin is not yet quantum ready right like bitcoin doesn't have

707
00:58:21,831 --> 00:58:28,711
any quantum protections at this point um there are discussions now in place which i'm really glad so

708
00:58:28,711 --> 00:58:35,511
there is the bib 360 you know that is in draft but there is some work on that and basically the idea

709
00:58:35,511 --> 00:58:41,591
is to bring a new type of addresses into bitcoin that would be you know resistant to the to this

710
00:58:41,591 --> 00:58:46,551
quantum computers uh it's gonna take some time because of course bitcoin is conservative which

711
00:58:46,551 --> 00:58:47,391
which is a good thing.

712
00:58:47,391 --> 00:58:51,411
So I think we're gonna discuss the BIP for next year or two.

713
00:58:51,411 --> 00:58:53,891
And then the implementation, it's gonna take time, right?

714
00:58:53,891 --> 00:58:55,651
But it's gonna be a similar upgrade

715
00:58:55,651 --> 00:58:57,411
as there was SegWit and Taproot.

716
00:58:57,411 --> 00:59:02,191
So now we're gonna have some quantum upgrade later on.

717
00:59:02,191 --> 00:59:07,191
So we cannot really make a quantum resistant hardware wallet

718
00:59:08,051 --> 00:59:10,751
because the underlying technology

719
00:59:10,751 --> 00:59:12,471
is not quantum resistant, right?

720
00:59:12,471 --> 00:59:14,271
It doesn't make sense for the attacker

721
00:59:14,271 --> 00:59:16,151
to attack the treasure itself

722
00:59:16,151 --> 00:59:20,791
they can attack the blockchain right away right it doesn't make sense so we're thinking what we can

723
00:59:20,791 --> 00:59:26,471
do and that's how we came up with the quantum readiness which is that we've prepared the device

724
00:59:26,471 --> 00:59:31,031
already from the manufacturing that they are a that the device is able to receive

725
00:59:31,671 --> 00:59:39,751
any updates in this quantum safe manner right so once there is bifur 360 once there is this

726
00:59:39,751 --> 00:59:45,591
quantum upgrade in bitcoin we can support it in firmware and we can send it to the device

727
00:59:45,591 --> 00:59:52,391
again you know in a way that is quantum resistant so we can provide the update in a safe manner even

728
00:59:52,391 --> 00:59:57,431
in case there would be quantum computers same goes to the fact that we can prove the device

729
00:59:57,431 --> 01:00:03,191
authenticity using uh you know a quantum certificate or there is a certificate inside

730
01:00:03,191 --> 01:00:09,351
the device that is signed again using these post quantum algorithms meaning we can approve the

731
01:00:09,351 --> 01:00:15,911
authenticity even in case there would be quantum computers right so it is a bit tough to explain

732
01:00:16,471 --> 01:00:21,511
like every time i start i i feel the need that like i would need to talk for another hour to at

733
01:00:21,511 --> 01:00:27,271
least you know dive more into it but in a nutshell you know the idea is that we've we've tried to do

734
01:00:27,271 --> 01:00:33,831
as much as we can to make the device ready for any future updates and make it ready for the time when

735
01:00:33,831 --> 01:00:40,311
bitcoin actually does this uh you know post quantum uh upgrade then we can support it and we can bring

736
01:00:40,311 --> 01:00:47,911
the update in a in a quantum safe manner as well so the only only only wallet on the market ready

737
01:00:47,911 --> 01:00:54,150
for that or because of the chip yeah yeah so um it is the only hardware wallet on the market that

738
01:00:54,150 --> 01:01:00,071
has this i'm i'm not aware of any other i don't think there is it is not in in particular connected

739
01:01:00,071 --> 01:01:05,191
to the tropic uh chip uh the tropic secure element is doing you know a lot of great stuff on the

740
01:01:05,191 --> 01:01:11,431
security but it doesn't have support for the quantum post quantum algorithms either so we we

741
01:01:11,431 --> 01:01:16,551
have to do this in the other chip in the in the more generic one so it is not connected together

742
01:01:16,551 --> 01:01:20,711
uh by the way we would of course love to bring the post quantum algorithms to tropic as well

743
01:01:20,711 --> 01:01:25,591
but again you know it's gonna take some time so uh it's something that i think the team will work

744
01:01:25,591 --> 01:01:31,991
on as well um so yeah it is not not connected but it is the only hardware wallet that that has this

745
01:01:31,991 --> 01:01:37,031
and we by the way we also and that's not very visible to the users but we are actually also

746
01:01:37,031 --> 01:01:42,951
doing a lot of benchmarks on the device uh because the the downside of those post quantum algorithms

747
01:01:42,951 --> 01:01:48,951
is that they take longer they take longer to to to create the signature so it takes uh you know

748
01:01:48,951 --> 01:01:53,831
way more time than the ones that we have now so we're also doing a lot of benchmarks again because

749
01:01:53,831 --> 01:01:58,471
we are open source everyone can actually check it out on github so we're you know trying to help

750
01:01:58,471 --> 01:02:04,311
here as well we're also in touch with the authors of the bib you know to try they're really nice

751
01:02:04,311 --> 01:02:08,791
that they're thinking about hardware wallets as well because this by the way you know the new

752
01:02:08,791 --> 01:02:13,271
algorithms are probably not a problem for the software wallets because they have way more

753
01:02:13,271 --> 01:02:18,631
resources right like they have your generic cpu in your computer so they can calculate these

754
01:02:18,631 --> 01:02:23,111
signatures faster but for the hardware wallets it could be a problem right so it's great that we're

755
01:02:23,111 --> 01:02:35,517
We also uh yeah that that that the BIP is taking this into account and we trying to help with the benchmarks and to see where we hit And we should be fine like the whole SAFE series I believe and even Model T should be able to support this

756
01:02:35,917 --> 01:02:38,677
But we need to wait for the BIP to be finalized.

757
01:02:39,017 --> 01:02:39,277
Okay.

758
01:02:39,377 --> 01:02:43,277
And for those wondering what BIP means, it's Bitcoin Improvement Proposal.

759
01:02:43,397 --> 01:02:44,097
What number was it?

760
01:02:45,017 --> 01:02:45,377
360.

761
01:02:46,197 --> 01:02:46,557
360.

762
01:02:46,557 --> 01:02:50,877
And again, anyone can go and look at that and provide feedback to it.

763
01:02:50,877 --> 01:02:54,757
if you're quantum ready with your brain yet, because mine isn't.

764
01:02:56,417 --> 01:03:01,077
Yeah, I mean, I have to learn how to explain this more

765
01:03:01,077 --> 01:03:04,337
because I've actually been talking about conference about this,

766
01:03:04,997 --> 01:03:06,037
I don't know, a month ago.

767
01:03:06,597 --> 01:03:08,697
And every time I prepare the slides, you know,

768
01:03:08,817 --> 01:03:12,957
I start at some assumption that, you know, the audience knows.

769
01:03:13,197 --> 01:03:16,697
And then when I start to speak, like in minute number two or three,

770
01:03:16,777 --> 01:03:17,597
I realize, oh.

771
01:03:17,677 --> 01:03:18,617
Everyone's left the room.

772
01:03:18,957 --> 01:03:20,257
Exactly. I've missed it.

773
01:03:20,877 --> 01:03:26,097
So, yeah, it is a bit of a rabbit hole that you need to dive into to grasp.

774
01:03:26,157 --> 01:03:28,957
I think we're probably guilty of that in the Bitcoin space as well.

775
01:03:29,057 --> 01:03:31,037
I've noticed that at conferences this year.

776
01:03:31,337 --> 01:03:34,737
I even got feedback directly from a lady at Riga.

777
01:03:34,737 --> 01:03:38,797
She said, you guys are using language that's going over people's heads.

778
01:03:39,537 --> 01:03:41,297
And you think, yeah, of course we are.

779
01:03:41,717 --> 01:03:46,297
Just because we're at Baltic Honey Badger doesn't mean everybody's a freaking toxic privacy maxi.

780
01:03:46,537 --> 01:03:49,497
You know, this is some people are here for their first ever conference.

781
01:03:49,497 --> 01:03:55,297
and we're using acronyms and parlance that we're all used to using.

782
01:03:55,297 --> 01:04:03,577
But so, you know, it's always good to just to, you know, lay out these acronyms

783
01:04:03,577 --> 01:04:06,097
so people are up to speed with that.

784
01:04:07,257 --> 01:04:09,677
That's a great point, by the way.

785
01:04:09,837 --> 01:04:12,677
And yeah, again, like we're going back to the education or, you know,

786
01:04:12,737 --> 01:04:16,957
explaining these things in a great manner, which is, by the way, funny

787
01:04:16,957 --> 01:04:22,237
because about the quantum ready, I didn't really like the term much because like what it means,

788
01:04:22,237 --> 01:04:29,037
right? It's very abstract. And that's what our CCO came up with. And it was like, really, I told him

789
01:04:29,037 --> 01:04:33,357
like, Hey, we have this post quantum signature. And I tried to give him, you know, the 15 minutes

790
01:04:33,357 --> 01:04:38,477
talk. And I was like, please market it sensibly. Like, don't do anything crazy. And he was like,

791
01:04:38,477 --> 01:04:42,637
Hey, and the other day, you know, quantum ready stickers and all that. I was like, Oh,

792
01:04:42,637 --> 01:04:54,437
But I'm actually really glad we've done it because like we are really doing a lot of great innovation and, you know, like me going on in a podcast for 15 minutes is great.

793
01:04:54,437 --> 01:04:59,037
But then you also need to have, you know, the shorter versions for the broader audience.

794
01:04:59,037 --> 01:05:12,317
So I'm actually glad that we are also pushing this part of, you know, trying to reach more people, you know, have some some maybe simplified terms for the general audience and then provide good materials that where they can learn more.

795
01:05:12,637 --> 01:05:21,677
And by the way, speaking of acronyms, Tropic Square, the name Tropic stands for Truly Open IC, Integrated Circuit.

796
01:05:22,257 --> 01:05:28,757
Which is true, but I've told someone in the company just a few days ago and they were like, no, you just made that up.

797
01:05:28,837 --> 01:05:30,217
That's like, what? No, what?

798
01:05:32,257 --> 01:05:33,557
I'd never even thought of it.

799
01:05:33,637 --> 01:05:36,677
I mean, why use the word Tropic if you're based out of Czech Republic?

800
01:05:36,937 --> 01:05:38,397
Of course, it makes no sense.

801
01:05:38,397 --> 01:05:41,397
And the name of the chip is the...

802
01:05:41,397 --> 01:05:42,377
Tropic 01.

803
01:05:42,637 --> 01:05:43,637
Tropic 01.

804
01:05:43,637 --> 01:05:44,637
Yeah.

805
01:05:44,637 --> 01:05:46,637
And they had, isn't there a palm tree?

806
01:05:46,637 --> 01:05:48,637
Is that the company logo?

807
01:05:48,637 --> 01:05:50,637
Yeah, it's all very confusing.

808
01:05:50,637 --> 01:05:55,637
Yeah, it's Tropic Square is the name of the company and Tropic 01 is the first chip.

809
01:05:55,637 --> 01:06:01,637
Because we would actually, you know, or that's the general idea to innovate there as well.

810
01:06:01,637 --> 01:06:04,637
So for example, in the Safe 7, we have more chips, right?

811
01:06:04,637 --> 01:06:09,637
We have the generic MCU, we have the Securella Man, another Securella Man, then we have Bluetooth

812
01:06:09,637 --> 01:06:11,637
chip, you know, there's way more chips.

813
01:06:11,637 --> 01:06:17,317
And it would be nice to consolidate maybe all of this into one very big Tropic chip,

814
01:06:17,317 --> 01:06:23,077
because that would be the best. But again, realistically speaking, it's just a function

815
01:06:23,077 --> 01:06:26,837
of time and money. So yeah, we want to innovate there as well eventually.

816
01:06:26,837 --> 01:06:30,917
What did you say it was? Truly open protocol integrated chip?

817
01:06:31,477 --> 01:06:40,757
Truly open integrated circuit. Yeah, integrated circuit means chip. That's the academic way to say

818
01:06:40,757 --> 01:06:47,717
a chip basically but yeah very complex so what's next lads i mean you can't rest on your laurels

819
01:06:47,717 --> 01:06:53,397
here like uh you know this isn't how companies are run mate you know you don't launch the last thing

820
01:06:53,397 --> 01:06:58,197
and then like all right that's great let's watch the money roll in you got to have another another

821
01:06:58,197 --> 01:07:05,317
trick up your sleeve uh another big idea what's going on yeah so uh we would actually like to

822
01:07:05,317 --> 01:07:10,677
use this momentum because i can definitely feel like there's a lot of now positivity

823
01:07:10,757 --> 01:07:15,797
floating around the company because it was really like a milestone because I think success for

824
01:07:15,797 --> 01:07:22,517
for Trezor and the industry and the security so so yeah we'd like to build on on this

825
01:07:24,117 --> 01:07:31,637
and we are actually just tomorrow we have a big meeting around what the next hardware product is

826
01:07:31,637 --> 01:07:39,477
going to be the hardware wallet so we would like to also innovate more in the let's say entry level

827
01:07:39,477 --> 01:07:45,317
space as well because right like chaser save 7 is our flagship product but we want to also bring

828
01:07:45,317 --> 01:07:52,757
the price down um and to be truly like a mobile first and wireless there so so yeah that's the

829
01:07:52,757 --> 01:07:59,237
kind of the space that we are looking into uh because you know we have on the market well these

830
01:07:59,237 --> 01:08:05,317
these guys but also chaser save 3 and chaser save 5. they don't have any bluetooth so we'll probably

831
01:08:05,317 --> 01:08:10,357
go with another wireless device in that space but but again like we don't have the full spec

832
01:08:10,357 --> 01:08:18,917
yet locked but we have already pretty solid ideas um so that's that's one secondly we want to still

833
01:08:18,917 --> 01:08:23,797
make our backup experience better as well so because the wireless technologies also bring us

834
01:08:23,797 --> 01:08:31,397
some um some possibilities how we can also um not just replace but made let's say some do some

835
01:08:31,397 --> 01:08:39,077
complementary products to um the whip the bit 39 so the words could be also done we believe

836
01:08:40,037 --> 01:08:47,237
with reasonable security and privacy um digitally as well with some wireless uh accessory let's

837
01:08:47,237 --> 01:08:52,277
let's put it this way um and then finally software is becoming more and more important

838
01:08:52,277 --> 01:08:57,957
for us as well in terms of like revenue and what the users are asking for so we are building

839
01:08:57,957 --> 01:09:06,757
basically richer ecosystem of services right so we have buy sell swaps and all those things in in

840
01:09:06,757 --> 01:09:12,837
our ecosystem but we can always add more now we have staking products as well so we are basically

841
01:09:12,837 --> 01:09:19,477
bringing more partners you know it's um more coins yeah so that's that's part of the game basically

842
01:09:19,477 --> 01:09:26,197
because if we didn't do it then then uh yeah people would not use us as a product as well so

843
01:09:26,197 --> 01:09:30,597
But again, still in the realm of self-custody, proper security,

844
01:09:31,397 --> 01:09:33,017
and stuff like that.

845
01:09:33,317 --> 01:09:36,877
So yeah, those are the kind of high-level roadmap items

846
01:09:36,877 --> 01:09:37,737
for the next years.

847
01:09:38,317 --> 01:09:41,137
So Bluetooth, does that,

848
01:09:41,777 --> 01:09:44,537
because there's always been this debate around air gap,

849
01:09:44,817 --> 01:09:46,337
to air gap or not to air gap,

850
01:09:46,337 --> 01:09:49,437
and you have some people say it's absolutely essential,

851
01:09:49,637 --> 01:09:50,717
and other people will say,

852
01:09:50,917 --> 01:09:55,617
well, actually, it doesn't add any extra layer of,

853
01:09:55,617 --> 01:09:57,417
privacy.

854
01:09:58,757 --> 01:10:02,317
So is Bluetooth, does that solve that problem?

855
01:10:02,317 --> 01:10:05,757
I mean, obviously, everything comes with trade-offs.

856
01:10:05,877 --> 01:10:07,637
Hopefully now most people understand that.

857
01:10:07,877 --> 01:10:12,197
And whatever you do, there will be some kind of attack vector

858
01:10:12,197 --> 01:10:14,677
or unintended consequence.

859
01:10:15,117 --> 01:10:19,257
What was the thinking around Bluetooth in implementing that?

860
01:10:21,117 --> 01:10:21,457
Yeah.

861
01:10:21,457 --> 01:10:29,677
Yeah, I just wanted to mention first that like the whole narrative of air gapness, it's making me angry.

862
01:10:30,817 --> 01:10:40,197
The idea that, you know, inherently there would be something secure about scanning QR codes, like that's not air gap either, right?

863
01:10:40,197 --> 01:10:47,057
Like you still have a camera, you still have some QR code that you're scanning, you're still parsing the image, right?

864
01:10:47,117 --> 01:10:48,597
You still need a lot of code for that.

865
01:10:49,197 --> 01:10:51,137
How is that more air gap than Bluetooth?

866
01:10:51,457 --> 01:10:51,757
Right.

867
01:10:51,757 --> 01:10:52,657
Like it's over the air.

868
01:10:52,657 --> 01:10:54,077
Both of those things are over the air.

869
01:10:54,077 --> 01:10:54,417
Right.

870
01:10:55,657 --> 01:10:56,057
Okay.

871
01:10:56,057 --> 01:11:05,277
Maybe you have more code in the Bluetooth area, but still, you know, the fact that you are scanning the QR codes, like you still have to pass on the information somehow.

872
01:11:05,297 --> 01:11:05,617
Right.

873
01:11:05,617 --> 01:11:12,277
So it's, to me, it's very debatable whether scanning QR codes is air gapped or not, or what's the difference to the Bluetooth.

874
01:11:12,317 --> 01:11:12,577
Right.

875
01:11:12,577 --> 01:11:14,957
Because it's still both goes over the air.

876
01:11:14,957 --> 01:11:24,557
um we that being said uh we we we chose bluetooth because of the usability because like scanning the

877
01:11:24,557 --> 01:11:30,317
qr code you know is cumbersome i really think you know bluetooth experience is way better to be

878
01:11:30,317 --> 01:11:35,597
really sure on the security side of things we've actually introduced our own treasure host protocol

879
01:11:35,597 --> 01:11:40,637
which is like another you know tunnel inside the bluetooth connection so you have the bluetooth

880
01:11:40,637 --> 01:11:45,977
connection that is secured by the bluetooth protocol and inside that you have our own again

881
01:11:45,977 --> 01:11:50,537
open source protocol you know that is providing the encryption and authenticity and all of those

882
01:11:50,537 --> 01:11:58,397
nice things it actually goes directly from the app into the treasure itself you know so so uh

883
01:11:58,397 --> 01:12:04,877
the it's end-to-end encrypted um bluetooth security is somewhat decent in the like back in the time I

884
01:12:04,877 --> 01:12:10,217
think it was a bit more chaotic but now it kind of stabilized but again like we wanted to do more

885
01:12:10,217 --> 01:12:17,657
so that's why we have our own protocol so i really think the link is is secure and uh yeah it goes

886
01:12:17,657 --> 01:12:23,017
back to what i've said before like the security at the cost of usability comes at the security and i

887
01:12:23,017 --> 01:12:29,097
think that's the same thing with air gap like the most secure setup is that if you hide yourself in

888
01:12:29,097 --> 01:12:35,817
a cave and you calculate elliptic curve scriptography in your head yes that's probably the

889
01:12:35,817 --> 01:12:36,897
the most air gap, right?

890
01:12:36,897 --> 01:12:40,637
If you don't, if you don't have any device that you do the math on your own,

891
01:12:41,057 --> 01:12:41,997
is that usable?

892
01:12:42,057 --> 01:12:43,837
It isn't, it doesn't make sense.

893
01:12:43,837 --> 01:12:44,157
Right?

894
01:12:44,157 --> 01:13:01,583
So it is always trade and with the air gap there was actually a very nice article uh on the internet that that compared the you know the attacks on hardware wallets throughout some years And basically none of them there was like five of them maybe And

895
01:13:01,583 --> 01:13:06,543
basically, none of them would be circumvented by the air gap. It's just, there's just some

896
01:13:06,543 --> 01:13:11,103
transport protocol that really, you know, it's more important that you have the display on the

897
01:13:11,103 --> 01:13:17,023
device, that you actually confirm what is, you know, on the display and all that. The fact how

898
01:13:17,023 --> 01:13:21,423
you connect to the computer or to the mobile phone. I'm not saying it's not important, of course it's

899
01:13:21,423 --> 01:13:26,863
important. I just really strongly believe that the Bluetooth or some sort of technology that is meant

900
01:13:26,863 --> 01:13:34,783
for that is just way better than scanning QR code. Interesting and Matej, you touched on it there and

901
01:13:34,783 --> 01:13:42,783
we've been over it before but yeah you said there are other coins available to self-custody on

902
01:13:42,783 --> 01:13:48,163
on the treasure devices and obviously as a business you have to listen to the market and

903
01:13:48,163 --> 01:13:56,783
unfortunately yes there's still millions of people that are um speculating i will use that word on on

904
01:13:56,783 --> 01:14:03,723
the other things um looking for solutions in in in a safe way for them to self-custody that stuff

905
01:14:03,723 --> 01:14:09,823
but you guys have a bitcoin only version which i think people should be you know made aware of as

906
01:14:09,823 --> 01:14:17,863
well. Yeah, absolutely. So by the way, that's sort of almost like cultural debate we have in the

907
01:14:17,863 --> 01:14:24,343
company as well, because we have some, I would say Bitcoin maxis that are not super happy with,

908
01:14:24,343 --> 01:14:31,903
you know, anything in that space of not being Bitcoin. And I get it. I get it. I really do.

909
01:14:32,463 --> 01:14:39,283
But I always tell them, but please guys, stay with us because we need Bitcoin experts as well.

910
01:14:39,823 --> 01:14:46,303
as much as the altcoin crowd and the altcoin experts that really care about these products.

911
01:14:46,303 --> 01:14:54,523
The way I look at this and how I justify it, not being Bitcoin only as well, is simply

912
01:14:54,523 --> 01:15:02,823
because by making the ecosystem richer, still again, within the security of the proper self-custody

913
01:15:02,823 --> 01:15:07,783
of a hardware wallet, we onboard a lot more people to Bitcoin, by the way, in the end

914
01:15:07,783 --> 01:15:15,943
as well. And simply not just that, but simply we it's a free market. Like, who am I to tell

915
01:15:15,943 --> 01:15:21,863
to anybody like use just this, right? Like, or use just that. I think it's perfectly fine. I think

916
01:15:21,863 --> 01:15:27,063
it's morally perfectly correct. Like from from even Bitcoin Max's standpoint of view, like the

917
01:15:27,063 --> 01:15:32,023
non-toxic, let's say, because I think there is also a crowd that is like way more extreme about

918
01:15:32,023 --> 01:15:38,183
this but i do really believe it's a it's a free market and if we can do it within the boundaries

919
01:15:38,183 --> 01:15:44,103
of you know of our security principles and privacy principles then uh then we should do it and then

920
01:15:44,103 --> 01:15:49,863
ultimately i think everybody benefits from it as well because we as a company can then earn more

921
01:15:49,863 --> 01:15:54,743
but also reinvest it again like into making better products right because it would not be possible

922
01:15:54,743 --> 01:16:02,823
simply if we if we didn't if we weren't profitable um and but yeah back to your question yes we also

923
01:16:02,823 --> 01:16:07,943
have bitcoin only products because again free market we know uh there there are customers

924
01:16:07,943 --> 01:16:14,503
asking for for this and um simply disallow you from you know to install anything else than um

925
01:16:15,143 --> 01:16:21,303
then than the bitcoin only only version and maybe last point to this like what's coming through my

926
01:16:21,303 --> 01:16:26,343
head also i think speculation is one of the use cases on the market that's simply the reality uh

927
01:16:27,223 --> 01:16:32,423
if we measured what would be a bitcoin only would be probably 10 of the size of the company and the

928
01:16:32,423 --> 01:16:38,663
product we are today since that's simply the reality but on the other side um i saw some uh

929
01:16:38,663 --> 01:16:44,423
some some like macro research and and bitcoin it's obviously still the majority in terms of

930
01:16:44,423 --> 01:16:50,343
like people's usage and storing the value as well so so i think it's it's fine if it's like a gateway

931
01:16:50,343 --> 01:16:55,303
to uh store value as well and you don't have to have either or solution i think you can have

932
01:16:55,303 --> 01:17:00,743
actually both and it's perfectly fine and so it's a speculation but there are also stable coins right

933
01:17:00,743 --> 01:17:07,063
which are not bitcoin only but uh but they're perfectly say perfectly solid sound use case

934
01:17:07,063 --> 01:17:11,463
as well i believe and then they're a store of value and in bitcoin and and again i think

935
01:17:12,263 --> 01:17:18,983
i i believe these can perfectly live next to each other uh and it's people's and users choice to

936
01:17:18,983 --> 01:17:25,063
to you know do as they wish yeah well i have the choice yep yeah i just wanted to add that i really

937
01:17:25,063 --> 01:17:29,703
think there's quite a lot of people you know that they find bitcoin but it's too expensive so they

938
01:17:29,703 --> 01:17:36,423
buy whatever that come along and they buy a piece of that they do some gambling but then you know

939
01:17:36,423 --> 01:17:42,183
they actually gradually become the bitcoin maxis as well but they're gonna buy the treasure at the

940
01:17:42,183 --> 01:17:46,663
beginning right not they're not gonna buy a new device when they become a bitcoin maxi i believe

941
01:17:46,663 --> 01:17:51,943
or of course some maybe tiny percentage does but not majority right so yeah i think it's exactly

942
01:17:51,943 --> 01:17:58,183
that and yeah we see the trends of stable coins of course you know they are uh they work well

943
01:17:58,183 --> 01:18:03,943
until there is a monetary reform as we talked about one hour ago but yeah i think it can be a

944
01:18:03,943 --> 01:18:09,063
good gateway that you know people learn because we're still used to price stuff in us dollars or

945
01:18:09,063 --> 01:18:13,943
whatever they can learn how to use stable coins and then you know down the line they they they

946
01:18:13,943 --> 01:18:18,823
find out what bitcoin is and they're going to be orange built at the end as well so i think the last

947
01:18:18,823 --> 01:18:27,463
topic we need to touch which is check based is the central bank stacking bitcoin uh as far as i'm

948
01:18:27,463 --> 01:18:33,943
aware i don't know the ins and outs of it i believe a million dollars i think as a so-called pilot

949
01:18:33,943 --> 01:18:41,223
program i have also heard rumors that that may or may not have pissed off a certain lady who heads

950
01:18:41,223 --> 01:18:49,303
up the european central bank what uh what do you guys know what what's going on on the ground in

951
01:18:49,303 --> 01:18:53,863
uh in the czech republic with regards to the central bank they're stacking bitcoin so you see

952
01:18:53,863 --> 01:18:59,303
we as i said we have a lot of bitcoin companies and um bitcoin banks now uh i'm just kidding but

953
01:18:59,303 --> 01:19:03,623
like yeah i think it's it's the same story honestly i think it's the same story there's an interest in

954
01:19:03,623 --> 01:19:07,123
in Bitcoin in general.

955
01:19:08,903 --> 01:19:11,243
I'm not an expert on like central banking

956
01:19:11,243 --> 01:19:13,723
and on none of that stuff,

957
01:19:13,723 --> 01:19:16,843
but I can at least, what I can see,

958
01:19:16,843 --> 01:19:19,663
there is like, yeah, the guy's like pro Bitcoin

959
01:19:19,663 --> 01:19:22,343
and he's been publicly talking about it.

960
01:19:22,343 --> 01:19:26,803
And there is also like, let me mention one another,

961
01:19:26,803 --> 01:19:30,323
sort of use case of being kind of Bitcoin big.

962
01:19:30,323 --> 01:19:32,983
And it's like, we have an influencer

963
01:19:32,983 --> 01:19:37,983
who has 100K followers just by doing a Bitcoin content.

964
01:19:39,583 --> 01:19:42,383
And I think actually he played a huge role

965
01:19:42,383 --> 01:19:46,263
in explaining it to this tiny country

966
01:19:46,263 --> 01:19:47,703
of just 10 million people.

967
01:19:47,703 --> 01:19:51,043
So he has 100K, there's 10 million people

968
01:19:51,043 --> 01:19:52,123
in this language only.

969
01:19:52,123 --> 01:19:54,023
It's like a language only Czech speak,

970
01:19:54,023 --> 01:19:55,423
like nobody else.

971
01:19:55,423 --> 01:19:59,083
So yeah, I believe he might actually onboard it

972
01:19:59,083 --> 01:20:04,763
even people like such as the boss of the central bank here.

973
01:20:04,763 --> 01:20:06,883
I really believe that might be the case.

974
01:20:06,883 --> 01:20:09,703
So yeah, I think that's all I can say to this.

975
01:20:09,703 --> 01:20:11,923
And you have a new president in place as well,

976
01:20:11,923 --> 01:20:14,623
about a year into his term, is that correct?

977
01:20:14,623 --> 01:20:15,643
Yes, yes.

978
01:20:15,643 --> 01:20:19,283
I don't know if he's a Bitcoiner, but he will be, hopefully.

979
01:20:19,283 --> 01:20:20,483
Yeah, I don't know.

980
01:20:20,483 --> 01:20:22,183
Yeah, I just wanted to answer that.

981
01:20:22,183 --> 01:20:27,403
So in general, I have mixed feelings about this.

982
01:20:27,403 --> 01:20:31,543
On one side, yes, it's kind of cool, you know, that the governor of Czech

983
01:20:31,543 --> 01:20:34,723
National Bank is talking about it and the stacking sets and all that.

984
01:20:35,623 --> 01:20:39,303
That being said, you know, like, I mean, if I should choose, like having

985
01:20:39,303 --> 01:20:43,643
Czech National Bank without Bitcoin and Czech National Bank with Bitcoin, I

986
01:20:43,643 --> 01:20:47,783
do choose the latter because yes, it's better, you know, if the currency is

987
01:20:47,783 --> 01:20:49,483
covered by at least some Bitcoin.

988
01:20:50,063 --> 01:20:53,343
But that being said, you know, I'm not someone that would be cheering for this.

989
01:20:53,343 --> 01:20:59,983
like my mission is to give, you know, to give the Bitcoin to the people, like the individuals,

990
01:20:59,983 --> 01:21:04,463
you know, so they can store it securely. I don't really care about any national banks whatsoever.

991
01:21:04,463 --> 01:21:09,423
Right. So of course, Bitcoin is for everyone. So, you know, even the national banks, you know,

992
01:21:09,423 --> 01:21:15,583
of course, will start to stacking it up. I'm just not the one that's going to cheer in the first row

993
01:21:15,583 --> 01:21:20,143
because again, like the mission is to put it into the individual's hands instead.

994
01:21:20,143 --> 01:21:25,703
unless they make an order for a hundred trevor safe sevens to keep their bitcoin safe then you

995
01:21:25,703 --> 01:21:38,463
know yeah it's um i'm with you because they are just a node on that central banking network which

996
01:21:38,463 --> 01:21:42,883
is all subservient to the bank of international settlements ultimately you know the the big

997
01:21:42,883 --> 01:21:45,423
Well, the final boss, I suppose.

998
01:21:46,523 --> 01:21:47,923
So it is a strange one.

999
01:21:49,243 --> 01:21:51,623
And, you know, what money are they using to buy it?

1000
01:21:52,483 --> 01:21:54,063
Where did that million dollars come from?

1001
01:21:54,063 --> 01:21:56,843
Was it just printed and created out of Diné?

1002
01:21:57,403 --> 01:21:59,343
And has that, you know.

1003
01:22:00,823 --> 01:22:06,543
Yeah, I mean, they actually also own some stocks, which I'm not sure if the other

1004
01:22:06,543 --> 01:22:10,823
national banks do, which is kind of also kind of weird.

1005
01:22:10,823 --> 01:22:14,123
I don't know, should National Bank invest into stocks?

1006
01:22:14,123 --> 01:22:17,463
It's another rabbit hole, right?

1007
01:22:17,463 --> 01:22:23,963
But I just wanted to mention that we actually consciously made the decision

1008
01:22:23,963 --> 01:22:28,463
not to enter the institutional custody market as well.

1009
01:22:28,463 --> 01:22:32,583
So when you mentioned that if they bought like 100 treasures, you'd be happy.

1010
01:22:32,963 --> 01:22:35,783
Well, we would be happier if individual people bought those.

1011
01:22:36,123 --> 01:22:38,323
So you're not in the instance.

1012
01:22:38,323 --> 01:22:41,783
So, and that's been one of the stories of 2025, right?

1013
01:22:41,863 --> 01:22:43,883
The amount of Bitcoin treasury companies

1014
01:22:43,883 --> 01:22:46,383
that now have just completely appeared out of nowhere.

1015
01:22:46,983 --> 01:22:47,343
Exactly.

1016
01:22:47,563 --> 01:22:48,543
And that's why I mentioned it,

1017
01:22:48,543 --> 01:22:50,923
because there is a market for sure.

1018
01:22:51,583 --> 01:22:53,163
Would we know how to do it?

1019
01:22:53,483 --> 01:22:56,323
Most likely, security-wise, definitely.

1020
01:22:57,283 --> 01:22:59,623
But do we want to go to the rabbit hole

1021
01:22:59,623 --> 01:23:03,563
of like the whole legal institutional setup?

1022
01:23:04,303 --> 01:23:05,423
Not at all, right?

1023
01:23:05,423 --> 01:23:13,403
Because like, I believe it would really defocus us from the pure mission, from the core mission

1024
01:23:13,403 --> 01:23:15,263
of what we are trying to do.

1025
01:23:15,263 --> 01:23:19,863
And it's almost like a, yeah, a contract if in that sense, and it's like a whole new company.

1026
01:23:19,889 --> 01:23:23,649
So we kind of made the decision, let's not do that because that's not interesting for us.

1027
01:23:24,209 --> 01:23:25,289
Again, like, is there a business?

1028
01:23:25,489 --> 01:23:27,409
Most likely, you know, could we do it?

1029
01:23:27,409 --> 01:23:31,729
Like, yes, but so we could do like washing machines, but we are not doing washing machines,

1030
01:23:31,769 --> 01:23:33,289
you know, because that's not our business.

1031
01:23:33,749 --> 01:23:35,569
But now we have some ready washing machines.

1032
01:23:36,769 --> 01:23:37,489
Let's go.

1033
01:23:40,689 --> 01:23:42,149
All right, guys, final question.

1034
01:23:42,269 --> 01:23:46,329
If you had one last orange pill left to give to somebody, who would you give it to and why?

1035
01:23:46,329 --> 01:23:56,549
I'm going to start, I would give it to my mom because I've tried to persuade her already

1036
01:23:56,549 --> 01:24:02,209
since the university times to lend me some money to buy Bitcoin and she never did.

1037
01:24:02,209 --> 01:24:06,909
And every time when I ask her today, she tells me it's too expensive and I keep asking for

1038
01:24:06,909 --> 01:24:10,649
the last eight years I'm in Trezor and she still haven't bought anything.

1039
01:24:10,649 --> 01:24:11,649
Sorry.

1040
01:24:11,649 --> 01:24:18,849
Oh, I got all this time to figure a name and I didn't.

1041
01:24:18,849 --> 01:24:25,629
I was just thinking somebody the most impactful, but I really don't know.

1042
01:24:25,629 --> 01:24:30,589
Yeah, because I was just thinking like, for example, I talked about this with my grandma

1043
01:24:30,589 --> 01:24:31,589
and it was amazing.

1044
01:24:31,589 --> 01:24:32,589
She got it instantly.

1045
01:24:32,589 --> 01:24:34,269
She was like, oh, this is so cool.

1046
01:24:34,269 --> 01:24:38,529
You know, like, and she's the one I was also talking about the monetary reform.

1047
01:24:38,529 --> 01:24:44,329
So yeah, maybe let me say just another person I meet on the street, because I think that's

1048
01:24:44,329 --> 01:24:45,949
quite important as well.

1049
01:24:45,949 --> 01:24:59,145
So for everybody from all of us to kind of talk to also like the people we meet And by the way i super happy there are people in this building that are doing this basically still you know like uh they

1050
01:24:59,145 --> 01:25:05,225
handing out flyers yeah handing us flyers stories of like there's like a restaurant close from our

1051
01:25:05,225 --> 01:25:10,185
office and i think one of our colleagues was basically trying to orange pill the guy to accept

1052
01:25:10,185 --> 01:25:16,265
bitcoin and and uh finally he did after a few few years after years and i think now now he's quite

1053
01:25:16,265 --> 01:25:21,545
happy with that so so yeah and you got grafton you got you got grafton out there doing the vexel

1054
01:25:21,545 --> 01:25:29,545
thing like he is an absolute force of nature but he he's so full of energy yeah absolutely

1055
01:25:30,185 --> 01:25:36,665
well so my answer would be like the next person i talk to today excellent love it well thank you so

1056
01:25:36,665 --> 01:25:44,025
much uh to both for coming on and congratulations on this uh you know few years long journey of

1057
01:25:44,025 --> 01:25:47,825
of getting that all together and what a way for it to come together.

1058
01:25:48,225 --> 01:25:51,265
Like you said earlier, you got the, you know,

1059
01:25:51,285 --> 01:25:54,845
the seven comes together just at the same time as the chip, you know, this,

1060
01:25:55,605 --> 01:26:00,005
I mean, coincidence, there is no such thing as coincidence, right?

1061
01:26:00,125 --> 01:26:03,845
It all happens for a reason. And you guys are, yeah, you,

1062
01:26:03,845 --> 01:26:07,705
you're really driving this kind of ethos. So yeah, well done.

1063
01:26:07,745 --> 01:26:11,365
And thank you for all the education and everything that you've put out in the

1064
01:26:11,365 --> 01:26:17,005
past and look forward to see what you come up with next and see how you continue to grow.

1065
01:26:17,125 --> 01:26:20,325
And I'm sure we'll cross paths at B2C Prague in June.

1066
01:26:21,305 --> 01:26:21,665
Absolutely.

1067
01:26:21,865 --> 01:26:22,665
Thanks for having us.

1068
01:26:22,745 --> 01:26:23,385
Thanks for having us.

1069
01:26:23,465 --> 01:26:24,005
It was a great chat.

1070
01:26:24,065 --> 01:26:24,405
Thank you.