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Hey, hey, welcome to the Bitcoin Matrix. I'm your host, Cedric Youngelman. The Bitcoin Matrix is a

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self-supported podcast, so please consider supporting us directly via PayPal, Venmo,

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Bitcoin on Strike, check, money order, or subscribing directly to the Bitcoin Matrix

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podcast on the Fountain app to get early ad-free access to every new episode. Please check for

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links in the show notes. On Tuesday nights, Paul Tarantino and I host Bitcoin Center every

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Tuesday night at 8 p.m. Eastern live. Check it out for the laughs, jokes and the debate.

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We have big news. The fourth annual Bitcoin Day Naples is officially moving to the brand new

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Naples Beach Club, a four seasons resort on Saturday, January 17th, 2026. This isn't just

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a change in venue. It's a full elevation. The resort literally just opened its doors with stunning

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oceanfront gathering spaces, five-star service, and the kind of polished yet relaxed vibe that

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makes a Bitcoin conference feel like the premium experience it should be. We're expecting 250-plus

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builders, investors, and serious Bitcoiners in the room, plus a high-quality live stream reaching

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thousands more. The speaker lineup is coming together fast, including Natalie Brunel, Larry

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Lepard, myself, and many more. And the entire day will be packed with signal, no fluff, just the

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conversations and connections that move the space forward. And new this year, the night before the

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conference, Friday, January 16th, Bitcoin Day is hosting an intimate carnivore dinner with Dr.

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Sean Baker. Picture massive grass-fed steaks from a local Florida ranch, cooked over open fire by a

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renowned Native American chef at an exclusive private residence. Limited seats, unforgettable

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night, perfect way to kick off the weekend with fellow Bitcoiners who care about health,

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sovereignty and great food. Grab your ticket at bitcoinday.io and use the code matrix for 10%

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off any Bitcoin Day ticket type, including the carnivore dinner. The Bitcoin Matrix podcast

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officially partnered with CrowdHealth, but I also joined as a member. With CrowdHealth,

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it's not just about profits. It's about people. You get a team that helps negotiate your bills,

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access to low cost prescriptions and lab tests, and a list of doctors who don't treat you like a

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number. And if something major happens, you cover the first $500. Then the crowd steps in to help

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share the rest. It feels real. It feels like taking care of your health the way it should be.

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Simple, direct, and human. Thousands of members already say CrowdHealth saved them tens of

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thousands of dollars over traditional insurance. And with many subsidy programs ending and costs

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rising, there's never been a more important time to take charge of your health care. If you're

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ready to join a community that looks out for you, give CrowdHealth a try. This open enrollment,

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take your power back. Join CrowdHealth to get started today for $99 for your first three months

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using code MATRIX at joincrowdhealth.com. CrowdHealth is not insurance. Opt out. Take your

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power back. This is how we win. Joincrowdhealth.com. Use code MATRIX. A couple of months ago, I

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officially partnered with MicroSeed because this is the best damn seed storage hardware I've seen

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in eight plus years of being in this space.

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They supply titanium, stainless steel, and nylon washers.

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Imagine storing your seed phrase on nylon short-term

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to get through body scanners, x-rays, and metal detectors.

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Imagine stamping the words,

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so small they are nearly invisible to the human eye.

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MicroSeed engraves your entire Bitcoin seed phrase

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on a fireproof, waterproof steel or titanium washer

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the size of a dime.

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Discreet, resilient seed security made simple.

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Use the code MATRIX for a discount at microc.io.

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In this episode, I chat with Jason Leibowitz, head of strategy at Meanwhile,

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about a game-changing financial product that blends Bitcoin with the powerful concept of infinite banking.

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Jason takes us on a journey through how Bitcoin-denominated whole life insurance works

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and why it might be the smartest way for Bitcoiners to unlock liquidity,

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plan for the future, and ensure their wealth outlives them.

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He also breaks down the mechanics of policy loans, estate planning, and why traditional

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life insurance fails in a fiat-debased world.

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Whether you're thinking about passing your Bitcoin onto your family, protecting your

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wealth from future uncertainty, or simply want more control over your financial life,

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this conversation is a must-listen.

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Please subscribe, like, and share the Bitcoin Matrix podcast with your friends and family.

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And now, let's enter the Bitcoin Matrix podcast with Jason Leibowitz from Bitcoin-denominated life insurance company Meanwhile.

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What is real? How do you define real?

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You can't jump into cash.

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Cash is trash.

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What do you do? You get out.

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Meanwhile, is refining insurance for the Bitcoin age.

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Jason, welcome to the Bitcoin Matrix podcast.

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How are you?

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Great to be here.

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I'm wonderful.

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Thanks for having me.

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Yeah, I'm super excited to get into this.

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What is your background before even Bitcoin?

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A long background of a few different things.

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I mean, when I graduated college, it was 2008 with the eyes set on going to Wall Street.

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I was a finance major in 08, the financial crisis, perfect timing for someone to go on

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Wall Street.

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But I joined a hedge fund.

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I joined a bank.

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I sold fixed income interest rates, securities, mainly the hedge funds, until I discovered

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Bitcoin in 2013.

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And that changed everything for me.

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And it was actually an interesting time because I was working with some very smart people

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around me.

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and one of my clients, this was like Q3, Q4 of 2013.

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I get on the phone with him, 7 a.m. one day,

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and he tells me this interesting story.

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He said, and this guy, mind you, very, very, very smart.

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And he tells me, I was at this event last night.

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He was at this cocktail hour, and he basically told me,

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he was the dumbest guy in the room.

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Everyone was talking about Bitcoin.

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He had no idea what it was.

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It was his first time hearing about it.

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But he was convinced that these are very smart people and they're about to introduce this Bitcoin thing to Wall Street.

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And therefore, it was probably going up in price, whatever it was.

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He said, if you're interested, do some digging.

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I don't know what else to say.

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And I did.

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And I started looking into this Bitcoin thing, found the white paper, read it many times, found a lot of other blogs.

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And there wasn't a lot back then.

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There were very few places to get to read and get community notes and input and resources about Bitcoin.

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But I realized that whatever it was, I sort of the light bulb went off this idea of digital money that you can attach to an email, so to speak, to use an analogy, the way you can attach photos or videos and text to emails, send it instantly anywhere in the world for free.

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To be able to do that with money was a valuable introduction or evolution of the Internet.

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And it made all the sense in the world.

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And my other set of thinking was that this was the age that things were starting to go viral, like videos, stuff like that.

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And when things went viral, I mean, it went quick around the world on the Internet.

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So I thought this Bitcoin thing could go viral because it's digital money.

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And so it can move fast.

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And I quickly learned that it was a highly convex asset with asymmetric upside, given its scarcity.

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And I bought some on Coinbase, which was the only place I could figure out where to buy Bitcoin.

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and I custodyed a BitGo.

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I don't remember how I knew enough at the time

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to never keep your crypto on exchange, but I did.

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So I got a BitGo wallet,

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and I would buy a Coinbase, move it to BitGo,

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200 bucks, 300 bucks,

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and then quickly, before I even knew it,

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Bitcoin was at $1,200.

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It's like, oh my gosh, what is this thing?

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It is moving.

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And then it crashed to 200 bucks again

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a couple months later,

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and I was just totally hooked.

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I was telling anyone who is willing to listen

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that this was a really interesting,

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potentially new asset class

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that was nascent in the first inning of its life.

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And everyone on the Wall Street trading floor

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was like, you are cuckoo.

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You are pitching a pyramid scheme.

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The only reason that it'll go up

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is because people are buying it.

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It has no intrinsic value.

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It's just like every other financial fraud,

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like tulips in, you know, humans history,

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humanity's history.

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I disagreed vehemently, but ultimately left traditional Wall Street to co-found a crypto fund in 2014 in New York that actively managed a portfolio of digital currencies.

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And off to the races was my career in crypto attached to a rocket ship.

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We were trading during Mt. Gox's implosion when the Silk Road was shut down and the U.S. Marshals Service seized those Bitcoin and essentially washed them with a stamp of approval from the U.S. government that, yes, they were used for illicit purposes, but now we're going to auction them off to the highest bidder of accredited investors with AML and KYC in the U.S. or around the world.

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And it was an interesting inflection point for the government's acceptance of this Bitcoin asset.

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thing. So still so new at the time. Fast forward a little bit, I joined Credit Suisse to co-found

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their blockchain and digital asset team in 2016. I was with the bank for four years from 2016 to

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2020. And if you recall those four years, especially 2017 in Bitcoin's life, Bitcoin started

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the year at a thousand, ended the year at 20,000. Everyone was talking about it, whether you believed

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in it or not. And it was way more mainstream at this point in time. Everyone was talking about it.

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And you couldn't avoid those conversations.

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And being the blockchain team at this global Swiss bank,

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we started to get a lot of inbounds from high net worth and family office clients at the bank.

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Being a Swiss bank, we had ultra high net worth clients that started to reach out to the wealth managers saying,

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at the private bank, you know, we have 25 million in assets with you.

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We'd like to explore a crypto allocation.

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Where do you buy? How do you buy? What coins do you buy?

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Who are the best counterparties? How do you do your due diligence on these counterparties?

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And once you acquire crypto, what do you do with it in terms of custody, self-custody, third-party custody?

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Is there insurance?

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What happens if you die?

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What about tax and estate planning?

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All these questions started to go to their contacts at the bank, who, mind you, knew very little or nothing about crypto.

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But they knew enough that there was a blockchain team at Credit Suisse.

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So they routed and set up this conference call.

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And the first few were interesting.

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It was Jason, very important client, tons of money with us at the bank.

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He has all these questions about crypto.

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You're the blockchain team.

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Can you answer them?

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Of course I can answer them.

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I'm looking forward to it.

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And one call after another, after another, after another.

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After several, word got out, I got internally at Credit Suisse, and I was told by high ups

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at the bank that we don't give out crypto investment advice at this regulated Swiss bank.

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We're not touching crypto.

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We don't trade crypto.

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We don't provide liquidity.

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or custody. So don't give out any potential, you know, liability driven advice that could

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come back and bite us in the butt. So while we don't want to tell these clients that no,

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we're not going to take your call and talk to our blockchain team with your questions. Instead,

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you can take these calls, but don't tell them where to buy and what to buy. Just kind of,

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you know, beat around the bush. Okay. And call after call after call, two years later, I mean,

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we're now dozens and dozens of the same exact calls over and over again. And I realized that

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there was an opportunity here, that these people needed help. They had nowhere to go. The bank,

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where they had all their money, wouldn't help them. You know, Credit Suisse basically took the

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approach, following Jamie Dimon's mantra of Bitcoin bad, blockchain good. We do blockchain

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at the bank, disintermediate, you know, counterparties, streamline settlements,

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expedite settlements, save money for the bank through automation. I mean, blockchain was literally

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sitting next to AI and machine learning and robotics and big data and public cloud. We were

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blockchain, but we were not Bitcoin or crypto or liquidity. And most banks still aren't in 2025,

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which is shocking. But I realized that these people needed help, that there was a huge cohort

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of individuals that if they had a professional, you know, accountable firm to work with to help

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them allocate from traditional capital markets into the crypto space safely and securely,

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that that could be a winning business.

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And so I left the bank and I started exactly that in January of 2020, which little did

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I know was three months right before the COVID lockdown.

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Wild times, you know, in hindsight, really good for crypto, where the global economic

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response to the pandemic was very positive for all risk assets.

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the idea of just printing money and handing out stimulus checks and where was that money going

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into risk into things like bitcoin so then you had tesla and microstrategy started to buy and

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allocate to crypto and bitcoin in 2020 and and the bull market was was right in front of us and

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new highs in 2020 and obviously 2021 and so business was good you know i started this business

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where people needed help getting into the space and it was kind of a wild west leap of faith for

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them to take a dive and buy this crazy internet money But because the market was ripping they would buy today and be be up five percent tomorrow and they had that immediate gratification which helped them feel good about their decision

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and create organic referrals for me and so i grew this business throughout all of covid and

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ultimately uh you know things came crashing down ftx and everything else that followed at the end

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of 2022, 2023 really culminated for me with Operation Chokepoint 3.0 in March of 2023,

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when, you know, Elizabeth Warren and her, you know, cronies decided to choke off all of the

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banking system for the crypto economy by shutting out Silvergate Bank, Signature Bank, and Silicon

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Valley Bank in one week in March of 2023. So now all my clients who had bought a lot of Bitcoin in

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aggregate, it was only worth what someone else is willing to pay for. That's just how everything on

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the planet works, your house, you name it. It's only worth what someone's willing to pay for it.

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But if you can't sell it because you can't go to an exchange because the exchange doesn't have a

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bank account anymore, well then what do you really own? And that was scary. That was actually in my

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in my 12 13 years in crypto that was the single scariest moment on the roller coaster but somehow

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blackrock larry fink saved the day only three months not even three months after operation

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choke point did they file for a spot bitcoin etf and that to me marked the bottom of that cycle

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because suddenly the biggest asset manager on the planet with trillions of dollars

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believed in bitcoin and wanted to bring it to the masses in the form of an etf

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not a cash settled index futures based ETF like had already existed since 2017, but a spot Bitcoin

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ETF, which completely changed the game because it meant that there would be actual buying of Bitcoin

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of the scarce asset in order to manage the one to one relationship of the ETF to underlying asset,

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which is Bitcoin. And yeah, they really, you know, saved the crypto market. I don't know where we

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would have been. And then obviously Trump getting elected helped as well. But ultimately, 2023,

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Operation, yeah, that was the darkest point in my career in crypto. But it led to me meeting a fund

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that was trying to do on-chain private wealth. What I had built was an off-chain private wealth.

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I mean, it was basically white glove concierge helping high net worths and family offices

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allocate from capital markets into crypto safely and securely. I met someone in Miami who was trying

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to do that on-chain plus bring yield, staking Bitcoin, lending Bitcoin through options,

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vaults, strategies, staking your Ethereum, letting your crypto work for you. So I met this individual.

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He loved what I'd built. He thought that I was the perfect fit to come and bring everything I

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built and put it on-chain. And I did just that. And it was a great fund. On-chain private wealth

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asset management uh finally yield on your bitcoin not without risk we were selling basically just

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call overwriting selling out of the money you know 510 delta calls on your bitcoin so that you can

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collect yield still stay long just give up a little bit of upside and um people liked it and

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staking eth obviously was was huge in 2023 2024 and so i was at a i was at this fund um and it was

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great and ultimately i just i heard about meanwhile i didn't know what it was we're managing money at

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this fund we're trying to earn yield and a couple times i hear about meanwhile but i kind of it's

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in my periphery until late 2024 a little more than a year ago uh someone reaches out to me saying hey

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i'm at this company called meanwhile and you know love to i was like you know i'd heard about

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meanwhile i don't know what it is let's chat and in half an hour i was explained bitcoin

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denominated whole life insurance and i almost fell out of my chair literally like my head exploded i

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was like oh my god everything i'd been working towards in my crypto career essentially safeguarding

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your bitcoin your crypto assets trying to get yield safely without unnecessary risk strong and

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safe and secure custody being able to steward your crypto for many years to come the huddle mindset

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How do you make sure your Bitcoin even outlives you?

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How do you pass it down to your children one day?

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All of that in one product that, by the way, was completely tax advantageous because it's life insurance.

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I had a wife and two young kids at the time.

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I realized the opportunity.

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I quickly got my own policy.

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Fast forward a couple of months.

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My fund was acquired by Circle in January of 2025.

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I reached out to the Meanwhile team immediately after and I said, guys, I spoke to the CEO.

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I said, this is in my 12 years in crypto, the single most interesting product I've ever seen.

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And I asked him, point blank, how do you not have 50,000 clients already?

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I mean, come on.

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He kind of laughed and shrugged his shoulders.

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It was like, come join the team.

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Come help us get there.

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We'll make up a title for you.

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You help us get, you know, run distribution and growth and strategy and partnerships and

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ultimately sales.

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And I said, yeah, I've already sold three policies through friends and family before

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even joined the company because I told everyone who was willing to listen about this and I thought

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00:19:16,468 --> 00:19:22,708
it was brilliant and they all agreed and yeah you know joined the company earlier this year and it's

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really been this unbelievable product elegantly wrapped in the form of life insurance and there's

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00:19:30,448 --> 00:19:35,968
so much to it to unpack I don't know where you want to begin but health insurance is broken I

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00:19:35,968 --> 00:19:41,228
know it you know it so an open enrollment rolls around and all those health insurance companies

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start hoping you'll just re-sign, eyes closed, for the same overpriced plan with confusing fine

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00:19:46,748 --> 00:19:51,348
printing. It feels like they're betting on your inaction, but we deserve better than that. That's

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why I started looking for something different for me and my family. Something honest. That's when I

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found CrowdHealth. With CrowdHealth, it's not about profits. It's about people and community. You get

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a team that helps negotiate your bills, access to low-cost prescriptions and lab tests, and a list

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of doctors who don't treat you like a number. And if something major happens, you cover the first

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$500. Then the crowd steps in to help share the rest. It feels real. It feels like taking care of

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your health the way it should be. Simple, direct, and human. Thousands of members already say crowd

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00:20:24,928 --> 00:20:29,848
health saved them tens of thousands of dollars over traditional insurance. And with many subsidy

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00:20:29,848 --> 00:20:34,948
programs ending and costs rising, there's never been a more important time to take charge of your

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healthcare. So this open enrollment, don't sign because you're told to, sign because you choose

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to. If you're ready to join a community that looks out for you, give CrowdHealth a try.

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Join CrowdHealth to get started today for $99 for your first three months using code MATRIX at

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00:20:51,988 --> 00:20:59,168
joincrowdhealth.com. CrowdHealth is not insurance. Opt out. Take your power back. This is how we win.

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What is traditional life insurance before Bitcoin and break down maybe whole versus term?

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Yeah. So in traditional life insurance, you typically go to a life insurance carrier and you ask for coverage.

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A $1 million policy on my life. You have two options, term or whole life.

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Term is very simple. I have term myself. And it's really simple.

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you pay a premium for a period of time, a term. And if you die, a payout, a million dollars, will

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be paid to whoever you designate as your beneficiaries. In my case, my wife. It lasts for 10 years. In my

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case, 20, 30 years, you do whatever you want. It's relatively inexpensive. And that's all it is. You

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pay premium based on your age and health and other factors. And if you die, it pays out. If you outlive

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the term, nothing happens. Whole life, as part of its name, lasts your whole life. So it's very

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different. And because it lasts for a much longer period of time, it's much more expensive.

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There's also an investment component and all these tax advantages attributed to whole life.

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And that's exactly what Meanwhile does is Bitcoin denominate whole life. But to understand

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how it works, traditional whole life insurance, you go to your carrier, any carrier, you say,

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I want a million dollar policy of whole life on my life. And they'll crunch numbers based on your

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age, health, sex and smoking status. And they'll dictate to you an amount of premium that you have

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to pay either each month or each year in dollars. And obviously there's baked in fees and expenses

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in that dollar premium payment. And it goes into a mutual fund, essentially an investment account

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that has a guaranteed growth rate, very conservative, of like 4% per year. Every year, that mutual fund,

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those dollars in premium are going in the mutual fund that grows 4% per year, tax-free every year.

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And there are a lot of tax advantages in life insurance that make it appealing. And then there's

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one fatal flaw in traditional life insurance I'll get to in a second, which is why Meanwhile exists.

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But to go along this example of this mutual fund, million dollars in death benefit, you're paying

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this dollar premium into this mutual fund. Fast forward years into the future, at 4% per year,

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let's say 20 years into the future, it's up 30%. What you can do in whole life insurance,

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which is great, is you can borrow money. You can get a loan. Maybe you want to buy a house,

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down payment on a house, whatever it might be. And it's all tax free. And if you think about that,

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if you need money, if you have any investment that's up 30%, or portfolio or broker brokerage

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account, or you name it, and you want to pull some cash and value out of it, you're going to have to

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pay gains cap gains on that 30% appreciation, almost all scenarios. In whole life insurance,

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it's completely tax free. And you ask yourself, why is it tax free? Why are the assets growing

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tax free? Why are the policy loans tax free? And when you pass, the money goes to your family tax

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free. How does that work? And why is it built that way? Well, the government wants everyone who can

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afford it to have life insurance, because it protects you, it protects your family, it creates

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less dependency on the government for less welfare, less handouts. And so the incentive mechanism,

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the levers that the government has decided to put in place in order to try to incentivize you

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to get life insurance, if you can afford it, is everything's tax free. The fatal flaw of life

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insurance in today's day and age in our economy is that it's all dollar based it's all fiat based

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and there's high inflation right now i mean you you go to the grocery store you look at the price of

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eggs whatever it is in your life that you feel like things are getting really expensive

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year over year well life insurance pays out in dollars and while a million dollars might sound

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like a lot 10 years 20 years into the future it might not buy as much as it buys today probably

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won't. And so how can you improve life insurance where you continuously have these tax advantages,

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which are great. We all want to minimize our tax liabilities, but improve the payout. Well,

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why don't you do it in an asset that goes up and up or its purchasing power increases instead of

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decreases on a year-over-year basis, an asset like Bitcoin. And that was essentially the memo

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that my CEO and founder, Zach Townsend,

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who built, meanwhile, and founded it in 2022,

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wrote, Silicon Valley guy,

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well-connected in the Bay Area.

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And he wrote this memo when he realized that,

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wouldn't it be great if you can apply

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all these tax advantages of life insurance to your Bitcoin,

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essentially a life insurance tax wrapper for Bitcoin.

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And how do you do it?

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Bitcoin denominated life insurance.

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And so he circulated this memo out to his network

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and he quickly raised a seed round from Northwestern Mutual,

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one of the biggest life insurance companies in the world,

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Google's Gradient Ventures, Sam Altman from OpenAI,

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and a bunch of other big-name investors on just this premise and idea.

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We raised $22 million in a seed round in 2022 and 2023 and off to the races.

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I joined the company in 2024, end of 2024, early 2025.

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Since then, we've raised a Series A, $40 million.

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We raised a second fundraising round in October a couple months ago of $82 million.

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And backing us are Bain Capital, Apollo, Northwestern Mutual, Pantera, Han.

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We have a pretty big name of investors.

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And we are a Bermuda-based life insurance carrier that is completely on the Bitcoin standard.

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so in order to realize this vision that zach and his co-founder had the only way to do this the

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reason that northwestern or any other life insurance company couldn't just do it themselves

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is because you have to start a brand new company from the ground up on the bitcoin standard where

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bitcoin is your functional currency what does that mean that to have a policy you're paying

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your premiums in bitcoin your death benefits paid out in bitcoin and these policy loans are in

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Bitcoin, but you're going to get a new stepped up cost basis because policy loans and life

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insurance are tax free. How do you make that happen in a new currency? Well, the currency

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gets a new cost basis the day you originate the loan. So it's all this fascinating concept of,

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hey, life insurance has now entered the crypto room. Yeah. Well, let's walk through,

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because this sounds awesome. Let's walk through what a Bitcoin life insurance policy would look

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like. Maybe can we use some hypothetical numbers? Sure. What would sort of the terms and the

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the premiums look like, and the death benefit.

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So what we built is a 10 pay or limited pay,

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non-participating whole life policy.

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10 pay means you're going to pay your premiums

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in equal annual installments over 10 years.

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So let's say, for example, there's a 35-year-old healthy,

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non male and he has 10 Bitcoin premium Now even to back up for a second we had to change a couple of things to make Bitcoin life insurance work relative to traditional life insurance

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namely the currency,

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the fact that it's a scarce asset, Bitcoin,

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with finite supply.

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And so while you're used to going to a carrier

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and saying, hey, I'd like a million-dollar policy

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or a 10-Bitcoin policy, let's say,

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and then they would crunch numbers

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and dictate to you an amount of premium you have to pay,

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well, we can't do that.

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Why can't we do that?

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Because that would then mean that we have to tell you how much Bitcoin in premium you have to pay.

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You have to pay five Bitcoin in premium.

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But we don't know how much Bitcoin you have.

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You might say, what are you talking about?

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I only have three Bitcoin.

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It's a scarce asset.

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We don't know how much Bitcoin anyone has.

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So we had to flip the script basically upside down.

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Instead of asking for coverage, you come to us with an amount of Bitcoin that you know you have,

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that you'd like to use as premium.

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And you say, hey, what do I get for this?

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We will then crunch numbers based on your age, health, sex, and smoking status

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and give you a death benefit ratio in Bitcoin

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that you get relative to the amount of premium you want to pay.

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So given it's a 10 pay, you're paying over 10 years

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in equal annual installments,

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regardless of the price of Bitcoin,

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because remember, one Bitcoin equals one Bitcoin.

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Everything's in Bitcoin.

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It doesn't matter the dollar or euro or yen price of Bitcoin.

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You're going to choose an amount of Bitcoin

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that you want to use as premium.

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So let's say a 35-year-old comes to me and says,

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hey guys, I have 10 Bitcoin that I'd like to use as premium.

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00:29:04,836 --> 00:29:05,696
What do I get for it?

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00:29:05,696 --> 00:29:12,096
Well, based on his age, 35, and all those other factors, he gets about 18 Bitcoin in death benefit.

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So that's an eight extra Bitcoin or an 80% return he gets over the course of his life.

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Then you have to ask yourself, well, how does 10 Bitcoin become 18 Bitcoin?

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Where does this extra eight come from?

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00:29:23,336 --> 00:29:29,656
Well, like all life insurance, all whole life insurance, traditional life, you're going to get a 4% guaranteed growth rate yield.

402
00:29:29,656 --> 00:29:35,456
The minimum amount of yield in order to qualify as life insurance is 2%.

403
00:29:35,456 --> 00:29:37,436
and that's the number we chose to go with.

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00:29:37,656 --> 00:29:39,676
We guarantee every policyholder

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that we're going to grow your policy by 2% per year

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00:29:42,496 --> 00:29:43,996
in Bitcoin-denominated terms.

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00:29:44,076 --> 00:29:46,276
In other words, you're getting 2% yield in Bitcoin.

408
00:29:46,836 --> 00:29:48,596
Every year, over the course of your life,

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00:29:49,076 --> 00:29:50,736
we amortize out to age 100.

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So 2% annual compounded growth rate out to age 100

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for a 35-year-old, that's 65 years

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of compound annual growth rate of 2%,

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00:29:58,556 --> 00:30:01,856
10, 10.2, 10.4, do the math.

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And because it's paid over 10 years,

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00:30:03,656 --> 00:30:11,096
it starts with one Bitcoin in year one, 1.02 is the 2%. The second Bitcoin year two, 2.02 and then

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00:30:11,096 --> 00:30:16,196
2% on that and you compound that way. And if you do the math out to age 100, it's approximately

417
00:30:16,196 --> 00:30:22,596
18 Bitcoin. And the yield is where it gets really interesting because everyone wants yield.

418
00:30:23,036 --> 00:30:26,736
Everyone wants to grow their Bitcoin. I mean, your Bitcoin is self-custody or basically any

419
00:30:26,736 --> 00:30:30,896
custody is just sitting there collecting digital dust, so to speak. It's not doing anything. It's

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00:30:30,896 --> 00:30:35,876
not working for you. And so how do we get yield? And that's one of the key components to our

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business that I'd like to dive into a little bit. Yes, please. I'd love to know where the yield

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00:30:41,016 --> 00:30:48,536
comes from. So what we are as a life insurance company, as a carrier in the Bitcoin space,

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is a business with very long dated liabilities. We have 20 year olds who have policies.

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00:30:55,096 --> 00:31:00,736
they're not going to die for 60, 70, 75, 80 years.

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00:31:01,376 --> 00:31:02,876
So our liabilities are very long dated

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and therefore we're willing to take duration.

427
00:31:05,436 --> 00:31:06,836
We're willing to take long-term loans

428
00:31:06,836 --> 00:31:08,696
with the right counterparties

429
00:31:08,696 --> 00:31:12,116
that meet our very, very conservative risk parameters.

430
00:31:12,536 --> 00:31:14,056
We're very conservative by nature

431
00:31:14,056 --> 00:31:16,276
because we have to be around for decades,

432
00:31:16,416 --> 00:31:19,696
for generations to pay these death benefits

433
00:31:19,696 --> 00:31:20,576
well into the future.

434
00:31:21,076 --> 00:31:21,876
So how do we do that?

435
00:31:22,416 --> 00:31:31,816
Well, we figured out, devised a certain loan structure that solves a native problem for Bitcoin.

436
00:31:32,316 --> 00:31:36,596
Anyone with low cost basis Bitcoin, the perfect example are Bitcoin miners.

437
00:31:37,096 --> 00:31:41,236
If you think about Bitcoin miners, especially the ones that have been mining Bitcoin for a very long time,

438
00:31:41,236 --> 00:31:47,816
they have lots of Bitcoin that they've been mining for years with different vintages, different prices that they've accumulated along the way.

439
00:31:47,816 --> 00:31:54,436
You mine Bitcoin at $100. You mine Bitcoin at $1,000, $10,000, $50,000. Bitcoin miners have

440
00:31:54,436 --> 00:32:02,016
capex needs. They need to pay for their business. And a lot of those capex needs are dollar

441
00:32:02,016 --> 00:32:08,096
denominated. They have to pay in dollars for electricity to power their mining rates, for

442
00:32:08,096 --> 00:32:16,096
new computers, for rent, for where their miners are located in warehouses to the landlord dollars.

443
00:32:16,096 --> 00:32:20,336
So miners have dollar-based capex needs.

444
00:32:20,956 --> 00:32:25,096
And the question is, how do they go from Bitcoin, the revenue, to dollars?

445
00:32:26,276 --> 00:32:27,776
Well, or any fiat.

446
00:32:28,056 --> 00:32:29,456
Primarily two ways.

447
00:32:29,916 --> 00:32:34,436
Option one is get loans against their ASICs, borrow against their machines and facilities.

448
00:32:35,336 --> 00:32:37,096
Those loans are expensive.

449
00:32:38,136 --> 00:32:41,616
They could be 15 plus percent and their machines are collateral.

450
00:32:41,616 --> 00:32:47,116
but a much more simpler way for all Bitcoin miners to get dollars is sell Bitcoin.

451
00:32:47,576 --> 00:32:51,416
And so if you're going to sell Bitcoin, the question is what Bitcoin are you going to sell?

452
00:32:51,616 --> 00:32:54,076
Remember, you have all these different vintages, and just like everyone else,

453
00:32:54,136 --> 00:32:55,956
they have to pay taxes, capital gains taxes.

454
00:32:56,556 --> 00:33:01,916
So today at $90,000 a coin, does it make sense to sell Bitcoin you mind at $100?

455
00:33:02,256 --> 00:33:02,836
Of course not.

456
00:33:03,396 --> 00:33:05,416
The corporate tax rate is over 20%.

457
00:33:05,416 --> 00:33:08,656
It's non-economic to incur that tax liability.

458
00:33:08,656 --> 00:33:19,636
You'd much rather sell Bitcoin you mined today, yesterday, last week, last month, than Bitcoin you mined 10 years ago, five years ago, or even two years ago, given the price appreciation we've seen.

459
00:33:20,036 --> 00:33:27,616
And so what do they do with all that low cost basis Bitcoin that they should have sold or wish they did something with at the time?

460
00:33:27,696 --> 00:33:31,116
And Bitcoin's gone up so quickly, so fast that they didn't yet.

461
00:33:31,576 --> 00:33:33,956
Well, the answer is nothing.

462
00:33:34,236 --> 00:33:35,416
They can't do anything.

463
00:33:35,416 --> 00:33:42,356
Their CFO, their treasurer does not want to incur any non-economic expenses that will eat into their bottom line on an annual basis.

464
00:33:42,456 --> 00:33:45,276
These are businesses with, you know, a business model.

465
00:33:45,796 --> 00:33:48,976
And so you don't do that with your low-cost basis Bitcoin.

466
00:33:49,096 --> 00:33:49,816
So what can you do?

467
00:33:49,916 --> 00:33:56,976
Nothing until meanwhile rolled around with this way to free up your low-cost basis Bitcoin in the form of a loan,

468
00:33:57,096 --> 00:34:04,076
in the form of a one-year repurchase agreement or repo that allows you to swap low-cost basis Bitcoin with high-cost basis Bitcoin.

469
00:34:04,076 --> 00:34:17,396
The way it works is in the form of a one-year repo, our counterparty, a miner with low-cost basis Bitcoin, they can loan us, let's say, 100 low-cost basis Bitcoin that they don't want to have a taxable liability with.

470
00:34:17,776 --> 00:34:19,176
And we'll loan them back 100 Bitcoin.

471
00:34:19,556 --> 00:34:21,116
That assumes today's cost basis.

472
00:34:21,716 --> 00:34:25,136
They pay us 3.5% in interest up front.

473
00:34:25,316 --> 00:34:30,756
So really, they're going to mechanically pay us, lend us 100 Bitcoin, and we'll lend them back 96.5 Bitcoin.

474
00:34:30,896 --> 00:34:32,076
That's the 3.5%.

475
00:34:32,076 --> 00:34:39,216
And with that 96.5 Bitcoin, it assumes today's cost basis because this is a fixed income debt instrument, a repurchase agreement.

476
00:34:39,636 --> 00:34:41,956
And there is no taxable event.

477
00:34:42,176 --> 00:34:45,876
So they get 96.5 Bitcoin that they can immediately sell for all their CapEx needs.

478
00:34:46,356 --> 00:34:47,556
And it's a one-year term.

479
00:34:47,916 --> 00:34:53,776
At the end of the year, they can repay the loan, the 96.5, and receive their original low-cost basis Bitcoin back.

480
00:34:54,216 --> 00:34:57,516
Remember, this is a deferral of taxes, not avoidance.

481
00:34:58,036 --> 00:35:00,436
They're still going to get their low-cost basis Bitcoin back.

482
00:35:00,436 --> 00:35:04,496
But they also have the option of rolling this loan to the next year, paying another three and a half percent.

483
00:35:04,716 --> 00:35:08,876
And then the year after that and the year after that, three and a half percent, 3.5 Bitcoin continuously.

484
00:35:09,676 --> 00:35:12,696
And so what do we meanwhile get out of this?

485
00:35:12,856 --> 00:35:20,896
Well, from our perspective, we're getting three and a half percent yield paid in Bitcoin denominated terms up front with no counterparty or credit risk.

486
00:35:20,996 --> 00:35:23,576
Why? Because this is a fully collateralized loan.

487
00:35:23,576 --> 00:35:28,976
if our counterparty disappears or goes bankrupt or doesn't pay back the loan or anything happens

488
00:35:28,976 --> 00:35:34,676
between now and then it doesn't matter to us because remember we have all 100 bitcoin of theirs

489
00:35:34,676 --> 00:35:40,196
they only have 96.5 of ours so we get three and a half percent yield of which we give two percent

490
00:35:40,196 --> 00:35:44,416
to all of our policyholders and we keep one and a half percent for ourselves that's how meanwhile

491
00:35:44,416 --> 00:35:51,256
makes money and it's a very clever way of solving a problem for low-cost basis bitcoiners like miners

492
00:35:51,256 --> 00:35:53,616
by allowing them to free up that low-cost basis

493
00:35:53,616 --> 00:35:55,296
without triggering a taxable event,

494
00:35:55,756 --> 00:35:58,136
by getting us yield without counterparty risk,

495
00:35:58,596 --> 00:36:00,496
and giving that yield to all of our policyholders

496
00:36:00,496 --> 00:36:03,196
in the most conservative, risk-averse terms possible.

497
00:36:03,576 --> 00:36:04,556
Our regulator loves it.

498
00:36:04,956 --> 00:36:05,576
We love it.

499
00:36:05,696 --> 00:36:06,716
Our policyholders love it.

500
00:36:06,716 --> 00:36:09,656
Because we're not lending Bitcoin to the Three Arrows Capital

501
00:36:09,656 --> 00:36:12,256
and all these shady counterparties

502
00:36:12,256 --> 00:36:16,836
that will blow up and lose coin and create credit events.

503
00:36:16,836 --> 00:36:25,836
We are doing this very risk averse financial contract to get yield conservative.

504
00:36:26,696 --> 00:36:28,076
We're not looking for 10% yield.

505
00:36:28,476 --> 00:36:30,716
We only need to get 2% for our policyholders.

506
00:36:30,976 --> 00:36:33,796
And what's on top is how we make money as a firm.

507
00:36:34,676 --> 00:36:39,476
And yeah, it's a very clever way to grow Bitcoin.

508
00:36:39,836 --> 00:36:42,616
When it comes to Bitcoin, the rules are simple.

509
00:36:42,616 --> 00:36:47,576
run your own node, hold your own keys, and protect your seed phrase.

510
00:36:48,196 --> 00:36:49,996
That's where MicroSeed comes in.

511
00:36:50,656 --> 00:36:55,256
Unlike bulky backups, MicroSeed is stamped onto a tiny steel washer.

512
00:36:55,936 --> 00:37:01,516
Fireproof, waterproof, and so small you can carry it anywhere or hide it in plain sight.

513
00:37:02,096 --> 00:37:07,196
Go to MicroSeed.io and use the code MATRIX for a discount on your order.

514
00:37:08,976 --> 00:37:12,056
Yeah, I mean, it seems ingenious. It's fully collateralized.

515
00:37:12,056 --> 00:37:17,476
My only questions would be sort of how robust and consistent and long term is that market?

516
00:37:18,476 --> 00:37:21,596
And maybe the margins come down a little bit over time.

517
00:37:21,676 --> 00:37:22,436
Maybe they go up.

518
00:37:23,496 --> 00:37:24,736
It's a live market.

519
00:37:24,896 --> 00:37:25,336
It's dynamic.

520
00:37:25,896 --> 00:37:27,596
It's a good question.

521
00:37:27,956 --> 00:37:31,456
How many miners have low cost basis Bitcoin still?

522
00:37:31,656 --> 00:37:34,816
Or what happens in the future with this idea of low cost?

523
00:37:34,856 --> 00:37:36,176
What is low cost basis Bitcoin?

524
00:37:36,316 --> 00:37:39,856
Well, it depends on their corporate tax rate, on their jurisdiction.

525
00:37:39,856 --> 00:37:41,956
And every jurisdiction varies on the corporate tax rate.

526
00:37:42,056 --> 00:37:46,696
But the truth is that low cost basis Bitcoin is a moving target.

527
00:37:47,116 --> 00:37:49,416
I believe Bitcoin is going to go well into the millions in our lifetime.

528
00:37:49,836 --> 00:37:52,896
That means $100,000 Bitcoin is going to be low cost basis one day.

529
00:37:53,556 --> 00:37:56,156
So I believe there will always be low cost basis Bitcoin.

530
00:37:56,536 --> 00:38:02,396
But rough numbers, there's thousands and thousands of low cost basis Bitcoin held by miners across the world right now.

531
00:38:02,396 --> 00:38:09,976
And so the capacity is pretty robust for our purposes for the foreseeable future.

532
00:38:09,976 --> 00:38:16,676
and as bitcoin appreciates higher into the future there will be more and more low cost basis bitcoin

533
00:38:16,676 --> 00:38:22,016
so to speak sure and then maybe thinking about you know borrowing and lending bitcoin how can

534
00:38:22,016 --> 00:38:28,096
policyholders borrow against their policy is that possible yeah so just like in traditional life

535
00:38:28,096 --> 00:38:32,316
insurance where your dollars go into a mutual fund the mutual fund has a guaranteed growth rate of

536
00:38:32,316 --> 00:38:36,416
four percent per year and in the future it's up 30 percent and you can get a loan let's say you

537
00:38:36,416 --> 00:38:40,736
of a million dollar policy, you can always borrow up to a certain percentage of the surrender value

538
00:38:40,736 --> 00:38:46,116
or cash value of your life insurance policy. 90% is how we do it. So you can borrow up to 90%

539
00:38:46,116 --> 00:38:50,636
of the surrender value. With traditional life insurance, that surrender value, if that borrow

540
00:38:50,636 --> 00:38:55,916
amount, let's say it's $100,000, then you could borrow $100,000 tax-free, not have to pay capital

541
00:38:55,916 --> 00:39:01,816
gains on that 30% appreciation. And that $100,000, you don't have to repay it. It's just going to net

542
00:39:01,816 --> 00:39:05,976
out of the death benefit. Your death benefit was a million dollars, you're borrowing 100K.

543
00:39:06,416 --> 00:39:08,176
Your new death benefit is $900,000.

544
00:39:08,476 --> 00:39:09,916
Therefore, you do not have to repay the loan.

545
00:39:10,296 --> 00:39:11,756
You get all $100,000 tax-free.

546
00:39:12,156 --> 00:39:13,256
It comes with an interest rate.

547
00:39:13,336 --> 00:39:15,016
You do have to pay interest on that loan,

548
00:39:15,296 --> 00:39:19,116
which will also net out of the remaining $900,000 death benefit.

549
00:39:19,496 --> 00:39:21,556
And you can let it accrue for life.

550
00:39:22,056 --> 00:39:25,896
And same concept in principle with meanwhile,

551
00:39:26,516 --> 00:39:27,636
except everything's in Bitcoin.

552
00:39:28,156 --> 00:39:31,176
And it's growing at 2% per year in Bitcoin-denominated terms.

553
00:39:31,556 --> 00:39:32,456
So let's paint a picture.

554
00:39:32,916 --> 00:39:34,796
You have this 35-year-old 10 Bitcoin premium,

555
00:39:34,976 --> 00:39:35,996
18 in death benefit.

556
00:39:36,416 --> 00:39:38,856
Bitcoin goes to a million dollars in five years.

557
00:39:39,076 --> 00:39:41,296
And this person wants some cash.

558
00:39:41,396 --> 00:39:43,116
They want to maybe buy a house, whatever it is.

559
00:39:43,456 --> 00:39:46,616
Well, with Meanwhile, you could borrow up to 90% of the surrender value.

560
00:39:47,056 --> 00:39:49,716
And so he's going to log into his account at meanwhile.bm.

561
00:39:50,416 --> 00:39:52,416
And he's going to see available loan amount.

562
00:39:52,856 --> 00:39:54,536
And it'll be 90% of the surrender value.

563
00:39:54,636 --> 00:39:57,516
So let's say, you know, he's paid five Bitcoin in premium at the time.

564
00:39:57,996 --> 00:39:59,496
Surrender value is right around four.

565
00:39:59,596 --> 00:40:00,656
He could probably borrow three.

566
00:40:00,736 --> 00:40:02,656
Let's say he could borrow three Bitcoin max.

567
00:40:03,116 --> 00:40:03,736
And he wants to do it.

568
00:40:03,756 --> 00:40:04,616
He wants to borrow three Bitcoin.

569
00:40:05,136 --> 00:40:10,676
So the first step will be, meanwhile, we'll prompt him with, where do you want this Bitcoin sent to?

570
00:40:11,036 --> 00:40:11,756
It's not dollars.

571
00:40:11,836 --> 00:40:12,556
You're not borrowing dollars.

572
00:40:12,656 --> 00:40:13,536
We're not wiring you money.

573
00:40:13,936 --> 00:40:14,476
It's Bitcoin.

574
00:40:14,816 --> 00:40:15,876
So give us a wallet address.

575
00:40:16,116 --> 00:40:17,116
And he gives us a wallet address.

576
00:40:17,196 --> 00:40:18,876
We're then going to screen it with Chainalysis.

577
00:40:18,876 --> 00:40:21,356
Make sure it's not going to North Korea or Iran or Venezuela.

578
00:40:21,856 --> 00:40:23,416
And we're going to send him three Bitcoin.

579
00:40:23,816 --> 00:40:27,876
At that point, meanwhile, it's pretty much done because you're getting Bitcoin, not dollars.

580
00:40:28,116 --> 00:40:28,956
But he wants dollars.

581
00:40:29,136 --> 00:40:29,796
So what does he do?

582
00:40:30,156 --> 00:40:34,256
Well, he's going to turn around and go to an exchange or broker that he has an account or relationship with.

583
00:40:34,616 --> 00:40:37,116
And he's going to say, Bitcoin's at a million bucks.

584
00:40:37,396 --> 00:40:38,816
I have three Bitcoin I'd like to sell, please.

585
00:40:39,076 --> 00:40:42,636
And they're going to say, great, but where's this Bitcoin coming from?

586
00:40:42,656 --> 00:40:45,036
And what's the cost basis for tax purposes?

587
00:40:45,476 --> 00:40:48,156
He's going to have a loan document from Meanwhile that says,

588
00:40:48,156 --> 00:40:50,976
this comes from my regulated life insurance policy at Meanwhile.

589
00:40:51,856 --> 00:40:57,236
And it says right here that the cost basis was established on the day I originated this loan.

590
00:40:57,336 --> 00:40:58,836
So in this case, it's a million dollars a coin.

591
00:40:59,156 --> 00:41:03,416
While he might have used his Bitcoin that he bought at $50,000 a coin many years ago

592
00:41:03,416 --> 00:41:05,016
to fund his policy,

593
00:41:05,456 --> 00:41:07,276
borrowing different new Bitcoin

594
00:41:07,276 --> 00:41:08,616
from the life insurance carrier

595
00:41:08,616 --> 00:41:11,136
at a new stepped up cost basis.

596
00:41:11,736 --> 00:41:13,136
In this case, a million dollars a coin.

597
00:41:13,496 --> 00:41:16,676
Just like traditional life policy loans tax-free,

598
00:41:17,096 --> 00:41:18,476
it was up 30% the mutual fund.

599
00:41:19,136 --> 00:41:20,676
Bitcoin's a highly convex asset

600
00:41:20,676 --> 00:41:21,656
with asymmetric upside,

601
00:41:21,776 --> 00:41:23,056
it happens to be up 1,000%.

602
00:41:23,056 --> 00:41:25,356
Still tax-free, still life insurance.

603
00:41:25,916 --> 00:41:27,456
And this is how that mechanically works.

604
00:41:27,516 --> 00:41:28,756
You get the stepped up basis.

605
00:41:29,256 --> 00:41:31,636
So he sells three Bitcoin at a million each.

606
00:41:31,696 --> 00:41:32,596
That's three million cash.

607
00:41:32,596 --> 00:41:46,264
He withdraws it from the exchange or whatever into his bank account Now he has million He does not need to repay the loan His death benefit nets down from 18 minus three to 15 There a 3 interest rate on the loan So he going to pay

608
00:41:46,264 --> 00:41:52,384
3% annually on the three Bitcoin, which will also get netted out of his remaining 15 Bitcoin death

609
00:41:52,384 --> 00:41:59,304
benefit. And so he's also, very importantly, not at risk of a margin call. You ask yourself,

610
00:41:59,304 --> 00:42:06,704
What happens if Bitcoin crashes from a million dollars to $200,000 after this 80% correction, as we've seen historically?

611
00:42:07,004 --> 00:42:10,744
The answer, nothing, because he's borrowing Bitcoin against Bitcoin collateral.

612
00:42:11,144 --> 00:42:12,004
He's borrowing from himself.

613
00:42:12,124 --> 00:42:13,624
He's not borrowing from a life insurance company.

614
00:42:13,804 --> 00:42:15,084
He's not borrowing from an exchange.

615
00:42:15,404 --> 00:42:16,444
He's not borrowing from a lender.

616
00:42:16,904 --> 00:42:27,044
He's not borrowing dollars against Bitcoin as you do with traditional lenders in the crypto economy where you can post Bitcoin as collateral and borrow dollars against it for like 15%.

617
00:42:27,044 --> 00:42:27,804
No, no, no.

618
00:42:27,804 --> 00:42:30,044
he's borrowing Bitcoin against Bitcoin.

619
00:42:30,404 --> 00:42:32,224
He's borrowing from himself or his beneficiaries,

620
00:42:32,444 --> 00:42:33,544
his loved ones, his family.

621
00:42:34,004 --> 00:42:35,324
And so he doesn't have to repay the loan

622
00:42:35,324 --> 00:42:36,744
and he's not at risk of a margin call.

623
00:42:37,104 --> 00:42:38,544
So it's a very clever way

624
00:42:38,544 --> 00:42:41,244
to be able to monetize your Bitcoin.

625
00:42:41,684 --> 00:42:42,584
And by the way,

626
00:42:43,164 --> 00:42:45,024
remember he's only paying 10 Bitcoin in premium

627
00:42:45,024 --> 00:42:47,324
and he's borrowing against that 18 number.

628
00:42:47,644 --> 00:42:50,564
He still has 15 or so left in his death benefit.

629
00:42:51,084 --> 00:42:53,384
Five extra Bitcoin that he didn't have

630
00:42:53,384 --> 00:42:54,704
before he had a policy.

631
00:42:55,184 --> 00:42:58,684
So it's this really unbelievable product,

632
00:42:59,204 --> 00:43:00,724
Bitcoin-denominated life insurance

633
00:43:00,724 --> 00:43:02,544
or this life insurance wrapper for Bitcoin.

634
00:43:02,924 --> 00:43:04,724
Yeah, and I guess there's, you know,

635
00:43:04,764 --> 00:43:06,704
if you borrow the three Bitcoin at a million

636
00:43:06,704 --> 00:43:10,024
and Bitcoin goes down to 500,000,

637
00:43:10,024 --> 00:43:13,304
you could rebuy the Bitcoin and pay yourself back

638
00:43:13,304 --> 00:43:15,084
if you want to get back and top back up.

639
00:43:15,584 --> 00:43:17,444
And if Bitcoin runs from a million to 10 million,

640
00:43:17,544 --> 00:43:18,584
you might just say, you know what,

641
00:43:18,604 --> 00:43:19,824
I'm not going to pay that back

642
00:43:19,824 --> 00:43:22,184
and I will just have it netted out at the end.

643
00:43:22,524 --> 00:43:23,864
You are thinking like a trader, my man.

644
00:43:23,864 --> 00:43:31,524
That is arbitrage. And it is a true opportunity that you have. So let's continue that. Bitcoin

645
00:43:31,524 --> 00:43:36,984
crashes to $500,000, 50% drawdown. Well, he just got $3 million when he sold three Bitcoin at a

646
00:43:36,984 --> 00:43:42,404
million each. He still has half of it left over, $1.5 million. And he says, you know what? I'm

647
00:43:42,404 --> 00:43:47,964
going to buy three new Bitcoin at $500,000 each for $1.5 million, and I'm going to repay the loan.

648
00:43:48,064 --> 00:43:52,104
Why am I going to do that? Well, I'm going to free up more loan capacity for myself from my

649
00:43:52,104 --> 00:43:57,364
policy in the future. Stop paying the 3% interest rate, because I believe on the next bull run,

650
00:43:57,444 --> 00:44:03,184
Bitcoin is going to go to $3 million. And so by repaying the loan, keeping $1.5 million in cash,

651
00:44:03,184 --> 00:44:09,904
mind you, and repaying the loan, having no more liability, so to speak, you've just arbitraged

652
00:44:09,904 --> 00:44:15,764
$1.5 million in this life insurance product. And that's exactly right. And some people will be

653
00:44:15,764 --> 00:44:20,224
clever enough to figure that out. There'll be others that will use all the cash, and they'll

654
00:44:20,224 --> 00:44:26,444
continue to use all the cash. They'll do this concept of infinite banking in Bitcoin, which is,

655
00:44:26,544 --> 00:44:33,684
you know, have whole life and use the tax-free cash value, the policy loans to fund your life,

656
00:44:34,084 --> 00:44:39,664
fund your expenses because of the tax advantages. And to do it in Bitcoin, you know, today you sell

657
00:44:39,664 --> 00:44:43,384
one Bitcoin, maybe next year you only have to sell half a Bitcoin for the same amount of dollars and

658
00:44:43,384 --> 00:44:48,284
two years, a quarter Bitcoin for the same amount of dollars and your life. Our expenses are still

659
00:44:48,284 --> 00:44:55,784
dollars rent or mortgage or car payments or amazon or whatever um and so you use the policy values to

660
00:44:55,784 --> 00:45:01,324
fund your life all tax-free which is pretty pretty clever but others like you like me i have my own

661
00:45:01,324 --> 00:45:05,224
policy we're going to look at the arbitrage opportunities here too when when's the earliest

662
00:45:05,224 --> 00:45:10,044
you can take against your policy um there's a two-year incubation period you're borrowing

663
00:45:10,044 --> 00:45:14,144
against a surrender value so there is no surrender value in the first year of any life insurance

664
00:45:14,144 --> 00:45:18,884
contract and you have to wait another year. So it's two years total before you can begin the

665
00:45:18,884 --> 00:45:25,684
policy loans and then off to the races after that. And can policy loans help you avoid capital gains

666
00:45:25,684 --> 00:45:32,584
tax in any other ways? Well, I mean, I could speak for Meanwhile and Bitcoin, but it's certainly

667
00:45:32,584 --> 00:45:36,804
there's no capital gains tax at all when you're selling Bitcoin at a higher price because you're

668
00:45:36,804 --> 00:45:42,264
borrowing against a life insurance policy, as opposed to selling Bitcoin at a million dollars,

669
00:45:42,264 --> 00:45:46,824
let's say, for cash and paying a very big capital gains tax outside of life insurance,

670
00:45:46,964 --> 00:45:51,324
relative to whatever your cost basis is, you do it inside life insurance and there is no capital

671
00:45:51,324 --> 00:45:57,704
gains tax. How much do you think life insurance is about the tax achievement and just the transfer

672
00:45:57,704 --> 00:46:05,444
of intergenerational wealth? Yeah, I think that's a really important point too. We have young guys

673
00:46:05,444 --> 00:46:10,304
that are single and don't have families, don't even think they need life insurance. They don't

674
00:46:10,304 --> 00:46:14,164
even think of a product as life insurance. They just think of it from the infinite banking,

675
00:46:14,304 --> 00:46:18,544
you know, policy loan, tax-free policy loan perspective. And others who do think of it as

676
00:46:18,544 --> 00:46:25,824
life insurance, they might have a family and they want their Bitcoin to outlive them. They think,

677
00:46:25,984 --> 00:46:32,364
for example, my Bitcoin's in self-custody. I'm married with kids. If I get hit by a bus tragically

678
00:46:32,364 --> 00:46:37,764
tomorrow, does my wife know how to access my Bitcoin? It's valuable assets worth over $90,000

679
00:46:37,764 --> 00:46:42,484
a coin. It can pay for a lot of things for my family to take care of them for some time.

680
00:46:42,884 --> 00:46:48,744
And what a terrible tragedy it would be. Your Bitcoin died with you and you had a family left

681
00:46:48,744 --> 00:46:53,184
behind that couldn't figure out how to monetize it. They didn't know where the private keys or

682
00:46:53,184 --> 00:46:59,884
passwords or any of that was. And so how do you ensure and guarantee that your Bitcoin outlives

683
00:46:59,884 --> 00:47:04,924
you? Well, in life insurance, there's an inheritance component where, while my wife might

684
00:47:04,924 --> 00:47:10,484
not be the most tech savvy or crypto savvy person where if I did die tomorrow could she figure out

685
00:47:10,484 --> 00:47:17,784
my self-custody my private keys seed phrases where I have exchanged or broke relationships with what

686
00:47:17,784 --> 00:47:21,944
to do with the bitcoin how to move it on the blockchain how to sell it if the answer is no

687
00:47:21,944 --> 00:47:27,924
well we expect a lot of our clients policyholders have similar family dynamics where they're the

688
00:47:27,924 --> 00:47:33,764
the crypto person in their family and what this does what bitcoin life insurance does is it takes

689
00:47:33,764 --> 00:47:40,424
away all the complexity of reliance on your family to figure out how to what to do with Bitcoin if you

690
00:47:40,424 --> 00:47:46,564
die because all they need to know is that you had a policy this life insurance company and file a

691
00:47:46,564 --> 00:47:50,224
claim you don't need to know anything about private key management seed phrases passwords

692
00:47:50,224 --> 00:47:55,564
ledgers safe safety deposit boxes Google authenticator MPC all these things very complicated

693
00:47:55,564 --> 00:48:02,344
I have a treasure map written handwritten treasure map in a safe of what to do if you know in the

694
00:48:02,344 --> 00:48:07,904
case of my death. Well, with life insurance, it takes all that complexity away. And all you need

695
00:48:07,904 --> 00:48:13,204
to do is reach out to Meanwhile and say, hey, so-and-so passed away. I know I'm the beneficiary.

696
00:48:13,764 --> 00:48:18,784
What do I do? Well, in a white glove concierge manner, Meanwhile will work with the grieving

697
00:48:18,784 --> 00:48:24,744
beneficiaries and help them get their assets that are owed to them. And we also anticipate that there

698
00:48:24,744 --> 00:48:31,464
might be some beneficiaries who might be averse to having to deal with Bitcoin and say, listen,

699
00:48:31,464 --> 00:48:38,444
my husband for example was the bitcoin person in my family and now he's gone i don't ever want to

700
00:48:38,444 --> 00:48:43,244
see or hear bitcoin again i just want dollars well we'll help them handhold them through the process

701
00:48:43,244 --> 00:48:48,364
of receiving bitcoin and then liquidating it to help them get what they need because we understand

702
00:48:48,364 --> 00:48:52,924
there might be a lot of people that just want dollars and the beauty of life insurance is that

703
00:48:52,924 --> 00:48:58,824
upon death your bitcoin receives a new cost basis stepped up cost basis the price of bitcoin is

704
00:48:58,824 --> 00:49:05,504
higher. And so let's say Bitcoin is $5 million when a policyholder passes away. Well, they'll get

705
00:49:05,504 --> 00:49:10,064
Bitcoin, 18 Bitcoin in this example at $5 million a coin. They want to sell it all.

706
00:49:10,604 --> 00:49:15,744
They can go to the trading desk that will help them make an introduction to and sell all 18

707
00:49:15,744 --> 00:49:20,144
Bitcoin at $5 million a coin. Their cost basis on that Bitcoin is $5 million a coin. Tax-free.

708
00:49:20,624 --> 00:49:25,484
They can get all that cash. Wow. I mean, it really seems like a phenomenal product in terms of

709
00:49:25,484 --> 00:49:27,804
how it services, you know, the use case.

710
00:49:28,144 --> 00:49:30,944
How does Meanwhile handle custody risk and regulation?

711
00:49:31,364 --> 00:49:34,604
We custody with the premier custodians on the planet,

712
00:49:35,044 --> 00:49:38,724
Anchorage, Digital, Coinbase, a few others we're working on.

713
00:49:39,204 --> 00:49:41,244
Those are the only two that we work with at the moment,

714
00:49:41,424 --> 00:49:42,504
at the time of recording.

715
00:49:43,004 --> 00:49:46,204
And I mean, there's no two better custodians in the world

716
00:49:46,204 --> 00:49:47,524
as far as we see.

717
00:49:48,084 --> 00:49:49,964
They're regulated and licensed in the US.

718
00:49:50,404 --> 00:49:52,404
Coinbase is a publicly traded company, as we all know.

719
00:49:52,804 --> 00:49:54,304
They're scrutinized meticulously.

720
00:49:54,304 --> 00:50:02,644
They're overseen. Their custodian is a trust company in the U.S. Same with Anchorage. A federally

721
00:50:02,644 --> 00:50:07,704
chartered trust company by the OCC means that all their assets in custody are what's called

722
00:50:07,704 --> 00:50:13,064
bankruptcy remote, or in the event of a bankruptcy, the assets in custody are insulated from any

723
00:50:13,064 --> 00:50:19,484
bankruptcy proceedings. They have, each of these custodians have insurance policies, insurance

724
00:50:19,484 --> 00:50:28,464
providers like Lloyd's of London or AXA or Aon or Marsh to protect against theft, insider theft,

725
00:50:28,644 --> 00:50:35,564
hacking, you know, you name it. And so we feel, and they're also cybersecurity companies first. I

726
00:50:35,564 --> 00:50:41,224
mean, you have to be a cybersecurity company if you are going to be protecting billions,

727
00:50:41,224 --> 00:50:47,704
hundreds of billions of digital bearer instrument assets like crypto, like Bitcoin. And so we feel

728
00:50:47,704 --> 00:50:54,964
that these are the most well-established, secure custodians on the planet. And we feel very,

729
00:50:55,184 --> 00:50:59,904
very comfortable, and you should too, that your Bitcoin is safely custodied there.

730
00:51:00,124 --> 00:51:04,164
And what about being domiciled in Bermuda? How did that come about? And what's the reasoning there?

731
00:51:04,564 --> 00:51:11,064
Yeah, when Zach founded the company in 2022, and really built it in 2022 and 2023,

732
00:51:11,404 --> 00:51:17,264
and Northwestern Mutual was an early seed investor, it was figured out very quickly that

733
00:51:17,264 --> 00:51:19,884
Bermuda is one of the life insurance capitals on the planet.

734
00:51:20,324 --> 00:51:20,704
They're a hub.

735
00:51:21,104 --> 00:51:21,984
And for good reason.

736
00:51:22,344 --> 00:51:26,844
They are considered one of the most credible, legitimate regulators of the life insurance industry.

737
00:51:27,324 --> 00:51:31,484
Over 1,000, I think over 1,200 different insurance companies are domiciled in Bermuda.

738
00:51:31,844 --> 00:51:34,224
Trillions of dollars of assets in Bermuda.

739
00:51:34,824 --> 00:51:35,184
Why?

740
00:51:35,404 --> 00:51:42,164
Because they are widely considered to be the best regulator of insurance companies in the world,

741
00:51:42,264 --> 00:51:45,804
the Bermuda Monetary Authority, our chief regulator where we have our licenses.

742
00:51:45,804 --> 00:51:49,144
and we feel very comfortable being there.

743
00:51:49,464 --> 00:51:51,844
They, the BMA, loves us.

744
00:51:52,764 --> 00:51:53,484
They're forward thinking.

745
00:51:53,684 --> 00:51:56,764
They're embracing of innovation, embracing of Bitcoin.

746
00:51:57,284 --> 00:51:59,444
It took them a while to get comfortable

747
00:51:59,444 --> 00:52:01,204
with Bitcoin-denominated life insurance.

748
00:52:01,204 --> 00:52:04,784
They kept us in their regulatory sandbox for like a year

749
00:52:04,784 --> 00:52:07,024
before they released us into the wild

750
00:52:07,024 --> 00:52:08,784
and said you can now start selling policies.

751
00:52:09,484 --> 00:52:11,084
And from a U.S. perspective or anyone else,

752
00:52:11,224 --> 00:52:13,504
I mean, having a Bermuda-based life insurance company

753
00:52:13,504 --> 00:52:15,324
gives you a little extra asset protection

754
00:52:15,324 --> 00:52:17,504
because it's technically offshore, your assets.

755
00:52:18,224 --> 00:52:22,564
And so, you know, it goes back to thinking like, you know, an anecdote.

756
00:52:23,164 --> 00:52:27,384
Canada, remember during COVID, the Canada truckers protests?

757
00:52:27,864 --> 00:52:31,344
And these truckers who were peacefully protesting

758
00:52:31,344 --> 00:52:34,304
against the draconian COVID restrictions

759
00:52:34,304 --> 00:52:36,724
imposed by a Western democratic government,

760
00:52:36,724 --> 00:52:40,064
they had their banks and credit cards seized and frozen

761
00:52:40,064 --> 00:52:42,364
for protesting nonviolently.

762
00:52:42,364 --> 00:52:50,824
And to have something like Bitcoin outside of that banking system gives you solace, something that they can't touch.

763
00:52:51,284 --> 00:52:54,224
In Bermuda, offshore, even more protection.

764
00:52:54,444 --> 00:53:04,684
So there's something to be said about having offshore, regulated, licensed life insurance policy that gives you added bonus, added protection.

765
00:53:04,684 --> 00:53:11,564
And there's one other cool bonus, too, that we only recently realized is true.

766
00:53:12,364 --> 00:53:17,484
weird and sad headlines of people getting tortured or kidnapped for their Bitcoin,

767
00:53:17,644 --> 00:53:18,444
these wrench attacks.

768
00:53:18,604 --> 00:53:19,864
Gun to your head, give me your Bitcoin.

769
00:53:20,004 --> 00:53:22,984
People are being tortured in Manhattan, in the village, I think it was,

770
00:53:23,024 --> 00:53:24,284
or in Paris, in France.

771
00:53:24,344 --> 00:53:25,204
You hear these stories.

772
00:53:25,624 --> 00:53:26,784
Gun to your head, give me your Bitcoin.

773
00:53:27,204 --> 00:53:28,384
Private keys, whatever it might be.

774
00:53:28,944 --> 00:53:31,004
Well, your Bitcoin in life insurance,

775
00:53:31,424 --> 00:53:35,024
it is a very, very good way to prevent against any type of wrench attack.

776
00:53:35,144 --> 00:53:35,304
Why?

777
00:53:35,304 --> 00:53:39,084
Because it technically could take us 30 days to move your Bitcoin.

778
00:53:39,504 --> 00:53:41,584
Cancel your policy, get all your Bitcoin premium back.

779
00:53:41,584 --> 00:53:48,584
you want to borrow against your policy it takes days you can't expect that someone with you know

780
00:53:48,584 --> 00:53:55,384
brash you know wrench wrench attack is going to try to kidnap you for a month i mean these

781
00:53:55,384 --> 00:54:04,104
things happen anecdotally hours or days so you have this extra protection against that which is

782
00:54:04,104 --> 00:54:11,164
a very real threat um i'm on a podcast right now going hopefully going viral people know cedric

783
00:54:11,164 --> 00:54:12,364
People know the Bitcoin matrix.

784
00:54:12,624 --> 00:54:17,824
Like, we're not unknown people in the Bitcoin economy, in the Bitcoin world, and just the world in general.

785
00:54:18,064 --> 00:54:24,364
And so to have a little extra protection against that, there's something to be said.

786
00:54:24,724 --> 00:54:32,824
Yeah, everyone has to really think through their own threat vector and sort of the way they sort of allocate and sort of defend against these things and have plausible deniability.

787
00:54:33,284 --> 00:54:38,184
How does these policies work with, say, family estate planning and trusts?

788
00:54:38,844 --> 00:54:44,284
Yeah, so there are typically three parties to every life insurance contract.

789
00:54:44,444 --> 00:54:48,344
You have the owner, you have the insured, and the beneficiary.

790
00:54:48,844 --> 00:54:53,064
The owner can be an individual, it can be an entity, it can be a trust.

791
00:54:53,544 --> 00:54:57,124
And the owner has one responsibility, which is paying the premium.

792
00:54:57,544 --> 00:55:01,164
And they also have access to the tax-free policy loans.

793
00:55:01,584 --> 00:55:03,764
If the owner is a trust, you appoint a trustee.

794
00:55:03,764 --> 00:55:08,724
The trustee pays the premiums and has access to the policy loans on behalf of the trust.

795
00:55:08,944 --> 00:55:09,724
Then you have the insured.

796
00:55:10,244 --> 00:55:13,444
It's a single human life between ages 18 and 65.

797
00:55:13,984 --> 00:55:17,824
We're a young, relatively young life insurance company, very conservative.

798
00:55:18,044 --> 00:55:20,564
We're only insuring people right now between 18 and 65.

799
00:55:21,304 --> 00:55:26,784
I am pushing us to lower that bottom threshold down to zero.

800
00:55:27,664 --> 00:55:32,824
Because we've had a lot of requests from new grandparents who want to buy a policy for a

801
00:55:32,832 --> 00:55:39,512
grandchild. And there's this thing called Gerber Life, like Gerber, the baby company, has a life

802
00:55:39,512 --> 00:55:45,292
insurance. You can buy life insurance for newborns. And to be able to do it in Bitcoin and allow your

803
00:55:45,292 --> 00:55:50,612
Bitcoin to accrue for at least 18 years, hopefully more. I mean, what an amazing gift that would be,

804
00:55:50,692 --> 00:55:56,372
even if it's just a quarter Bitcoin or half a Bitcoin policy for a grandchild or a newborn.

805
00:55:56,372 --> 00:56:02,372
powerful at least I think so so finally you have the beneficiaries the

806
00:56:02,372 --> 00:56:06,432
beneficiaries can be an individual it can be multiple individuals in any

807
00:56:06,432 --> 00:56:12,292
splits or ratios you want it can be a trust it could be an entity it can be a

808
00:56:12,292 --> 00:56:17,192
charity the beneficiary files the claim when the insured passes and has access

809
00:56:17,192 --> 00:56:23,272
to the assets upon death who do you think this policy is a great fit for how

810
00:56:23,272 --> 00:56:25,232
How would you describe those kinds of people?

811
00:56:25,232 --> 00:56:27,192
For starters, anyone with Bitcoin.

812
00:56:27,192 --> 00:56:29,332
Right now we operate in the US and Canada.

813
00:56:29,332 --> 00:56:32,512
Very, very soon, like weeks will be Hong Kong and Singapore.

814
00:56:32,512 --> 00:56:33,512
We're going global.

815
00:56:33,512 --> 00:56:36,872
We have world domination in mind.

816
00:56:36,872 --> 00:56:40,672
But anyone with Bitcoin, this is how you get yield.

817
00:56:40,672 --> 00:56:42,812
This is how you monetize your Bitcoin tax free.

818
00:56:42,812 --> 00:56:47,112
This is how you pass down your Bitcoin to future generations tax free safely and securely

819
00:56:47,112 --> 00:56:48,792
so your Bitcoin outlives you.

820
00:56:48,792 --> 00:56:55,132
I mean, there's stories, anecdotes from California, if you remember the Pacific Palisades fire,

821
00:56:55,812 --> 00:57:00,672
where a very, very wealthy enclave burnt to the ground in that tragic fire.

822
00:57:00,672 --> 00:57:05,612
And people had ledgers, self-custody wallets in safes in those houses.

823
00:57:06,172 --> 00:57:07,692
Safes are typically sold as fireproof.

824
00:57:08,032 --> 00:57:10,672
Well, the fire was so hot.

825
00:57:11,172 --> 00:57:17,992
It was such an intense conflagration that I guess these safes had an upper limit of heat that they could sustain.

826
00:57:17,992 --> 00:57:19,792
And I don't think any of these safes survived.

827
00:57:19,932 --> 00:57:24,952
And a lot of people that I read online and heard from word of mouth, their ledgers were gone.

828
00:57:25,372 --> 00:57:31,432
And there were people that didn't understand the idea of backup and make sure your private keys and ledgers are in two different places.

829
00:57:31,432 --> 00:57:33,032
And people lost their Bitcoin permanently.

830
00:57:33,172 --> 00:57:40,052
It's actually estimated that 15 to 20 percent of all Bitcoin ever mined is permanently lost, at least until it's quantum computing.

831
00:57:40,212 --> 00:57:41,472
And that's another discussion.

832
00:57:42,912 --> 00:57:44,732
And so who is this for?

833
00:57:45,112 --> 00:57:47,512
Anyone with Bitcoin that wants their Bitcoin to outlive them.

834
00:57:47,992 --> 00:57:54,652
really we market towards high net worth individuals family offices trust it's great for estate planning

835
00:57:54,652 --> 00:57:59,612
but yeah you have to have bitcoin paying your premiums in bitcoin so whether you already have

836
00:57:59,612 --> 00:58:04,832
bitcoin or whether you're considering allocating to bitcoin for the first time this is a place to

837
00:58:04,832 --> 00:58:09,792
put your bitcoin that gives you yield that gives you the ability to get policy loans tax-free and

838
00:58:09,792 --> 00:58:14,472
that allows you to leave more bitcoin than you had to begin with to your family to your beneficiaries

839
00:58:14,472 --> 00:58:19,332
one day. That sounds great. How would you compare this then like whole life versus,

840
00:58:19,412 --> 00:58:24,752
say, self-directed IRAs where you can hold your own? Yeah, IRAs, Roth IRAs, which are tax

841
00:58:24,752 --> 00:58:29,732
advantage too, are great, except you have to wait till you're 59 and a half before you can access

842
00:58:29,732 --> 00:58:35,912
them. Life insurance, they're guaranteed and fixed from day one on that death benefit for the 35

843
00:58:35,912 --> 00:58:40,792
year old 18 Bitcoin death benefit. If he dies tomorrow after he pays his first premium, that 18

844
00:58:40,792 --> 00:58:46,832
gets fully paid out. So there's no incubation period. There's no waiting until you're retired

845
00:58:46,832 --> 00:58:52,812
59 and a half or 60 before you can access any of this. In a traditional IRA, you still have to pay

846
00:58:52,812 --> 00:58:58,972
taxes on withdrawals. In a Roth, it's already post-tax dollars or assets that go in. I have a

847
00:58:58,972 --> 00:59:06,412
Roth with a lot of Bitcoin ETF in it, but yeah, I'm almost 40. I still have another 20 years to go

848
00:59:06,412 --> 00:59:07,412
before I can touch it.

849
00:59:08,032 --> 00:59:09,112
I got to be patient.

850
00:59:10,332 --> 00:59:13,492
So I would rather have life insurance

851
00:59:13,492 --> 00:59:15,432
or I'd have a mix of the two for sure

852
00:59:15,432 --> 00:59:18,432
so that you can at least start using your Bitcoin now

853
00:59:18,432 --> 00:59:22,392
tax-free or shortly after tax-free

854
00:59:22,392 --> 00:59:24,192
versus waiting decades.

855
00:59:24,692 --> 00:59:36,674
I didn realize that So if someone signs up and they pay the first year premium and they happen to pass away they get the full death benefit The death benefit is guaranteed and fixed from day one in Bitcoin regardless of the price of Bitcoin

856
00:59:37,114 --> 00:59:45,094
18 Bitcoin pays out, whether it's a dollar a coin or $10 million a coin, whatever it is, 18 Bitcoin going to that beneficiary.

857
00:59:45,514 --> 00:59:49,314
We as a company are fully agnostic to the price of Bitcoin.

858
00:59:49,314 --> 01:00:03,734
I mean, you look at the last month or so of the volatility in Bitcoin, peaked at $125,000, $126,000 on October 6th, crashed on October 10th after the tariffs were announced and some other liquidation news from $120,000 to like $100,000.

859
01:00:04,334 --> 01:00:06,934
We were asked what happened to meanwhile during that period.

860
01:00:07,054 --> 01:00:08,094
Nothing, nothing changed.

861
01:00:08,454 --> 01:00:09,514
One Bitcoin equals one Bitcoin.

862
01:00:09,994 --> 01:00:15,054
Bitcoin is so much our functional currency that our audited financials are on our website.

863
01:00:15,054 --> 01:00:19,734
and you'll see a table of numbers, assets and liabilities with B's in front of each number,

864
01:00:20,054 --> 01:00:27,954
not dollar signs. We measure everything in Bitcoin. And so you're a policy holder. Your premium is a

865
01:00:27,954 --> 01:00:32,534
fixed number of Bitcoin that you have to pay over 10 years. Your death benefit is a fixed amount of

866
01:00:32,534 --> 01:00:36,934
Bitcoin that gets paid out to your beneficiaries. It doesn't matter what the dollar or euro or yen

867
01:00:36,934 --> 01:00:43,454
or yuan or peso or litecoin price of Bitcoin is trading at. One Bitcoin equals one Bitcoin.

868
01:00:43,454 --> 01:00:47,574
Okay, what is the application process like? I want to sign up. What do I have to do?

869
01:00:47,774 --> 01:00:53,294
Visit our website, meanwhile.bm. Everything's online. The full underwriting application process

870
01:00:53,294 --> 01:00:58,534
happens online, especially if you're in the U.S. Because what's unique about the U.S. and Canada

871
01:00:58,534 --> 01:01:04,054
is there is a centralized database of everybody's medical health records and

872
01:01:04,054 --> 01:01:10,134
prescription drug history that life insurance carriers have unique access to. So you apply

873
01:01:10,134 --> 01:01:14,754
online it takes 20 30 minutes and you don't have to visit a doctor for a physical you do not have

874
01:01:14,754 --> 01:01:20,134
to submit blood or urine samples we have access to your health records we can underwrite you

875
01:01:20,134 --> 01:01:27,334
remotely online meaning we've taken the process application process in traditional life insurance

876
01:01:27,334 --> 01:01:33,014
from months down to a couple days you can apply today have a policy two or three business days

877
01:01:33,014 --> 01:01:39,414
from now all you have to do after you're approved is send in your first year premium whatever bitcoin

878
01:01:39,414 --> 01:01:44,494
amount is that number is that you choose. We don't tell you what to pay. You choose your premium

879
01:01:44,494 --> 01:01:50,974
amount and you have an active policy. Do you have any advice or guidance, obviously not financial

880
01:01:50,974 --> 01:01:56,214
advice, but around what someone should be thinking about for a premium amount? I certainly can't and

881
01:01:56,214 --> 01:02:01,214
don't. And meanwhile, it doesn't give tax advice. I don't want to tell anyone what they should do.

882
01:02:01,214 --> 01:02:07,494
I can tell you I have more than 50 percent of all my Bitcoin in a policy. I got my policy before

883
01:02:07,494 --> 01:02:13,314
even join the company. It really depends on what you're looking to do. I would say that people that

884
01:02:13,314 --> 01:02:19,834
are older tend to put more of their Bitcoin in a policy because they're thinking about legacy

885
01:02:19,834 --> 01:02:24,894
and estate planning and passing down to their heirs one day. If you're older than 65 and you're

886
01:02:24,894 --> 01:02:29,294
like, damn, I'm too old. I can't apply for a policy. Well, you can get a policy on a family

887
01:02:29,294 --> 01:02:34,254
member who's younger and does qualify for a policy. An owner, a baby boomer with lots of

888
01:02:34,254 --> 01:02:40,214
Bitcoin can buy a policy on a son, sorry, a child or a grandchild who does qualify. The closer they

889
01:02:40,214 --> 01:02:44,954
are to 18, the younger and healthier they are, the bigger the death benefit relative to premiums paid.

890
01:02:45,334 --> 01:02:50,854
And so what we typically see is the older you are, the more of your Bitcoin net worth you put

891
01:02:50,854 --> 01:02:57,894
into a policy. You want the yield, you want the tax-free policy loans into your retirement to

892
01:02:57,894 --> 01:03:03,114
spend your Bitcoin and whatever's left over you leave to your family. But we've seen lots of

893
01:03:03,114 --> 01:03:05,774
There's people that are skeptical and hesitant

894
01:03:05,774 --> 01:03:07,414
and just do a small number.

895
01:03:07,414 --> 01:03:09,814
The minimum policy size is a quarter Bitcoin,

896
01:03:09,814 --> 01:03:12,034
0.25 Bitcoin paid over 10 years,

897
01:03:12,034 --> 01:03:14,814
which would be 0.025 Bitcoin per year

898
01:03:14,814 --> 01:03:16,994
in premium for 10 years.

899
01:03:16,994 --> 01:03:19,074
The maximum size we do right now

900
01:03:19,074 --> 01:03:21,934
is 50 Bitcoin in death benefit.

901
01:03:21,934 --> 01:03:38,236
That premium amount depends on how old you are how old the insured is but it could be like 20 30 40 Bitcoin premium for a 50 Bitcoin face amount policy Wow It really interesting the way you can sponsor or pay for policies on others as a way of tax deferring

902
01:03:38,556 --> 01:03:40,756
Congratulations on the recent raise.

903
01:03:41,136 --> 01:03:41,536
Thank you.

904
01:03:41,636 --> 01:03:42,236
Yeah, big number.

905
01:03:42,836 --> 01:03:43,636
All the raises.

906
01:03:43,936 --> 01:03:46,996
What do you think some of these funders are betting on?

907
01:03:47,056 --> 01:03:48,376
They're not known Bitcoiners.

908
01:03:48,376 --> 01:04:12,316
Yeah, I think that they're betting on the growth of the insurance industry. I think they're realizing that there is a pushback against a lot of the traditional whole life and variable life and variable universal life types of policies that have been operating in fiat because of high inflation that we've seen of the dollar and other fiat based currencies.

909
01:04:12,316 --> 01:04:21,516
the appeal and the luster of tax advantage life insurance is decreasing but when you have an asset

910
01:04:21,516 --> 01:04:29,296
like bitcoin being the basis of life insurance it makes a lot of sense our investors they believe

911
01:04:29,296 --> 01:04:37,916
in bitcoin's asymmetric upside potential and realize like if something's going to go up a lot

912
01:04:37,916 --> 01:04:40,996
over the course of your life or your children's lives,

913
01:04:41,356 --> 01:04:43,996
wouldn't it be great if it was tax advantaged as well?

914
01:04:44,156 --> 01:04:46,296
And that's exactly what we've built.

915
01:04:46,876 --> 01:04:49,276
And so our aspirations are to be

916
01:04:49,276 --> 01:04:50,956
the biggest life insurance company on the planet.

917
01:04:52,316 --> 01:04:55,256
There are other branches in the life insurance industry

918
01:04:55,256 --> 01:04:57,896
in terms of products that we're going to be rolling out.

919
01:04:58,396 --> 01:05:01,916
I described our 10 pay in Hong Kong and Singapore.

920
01:05:02,256 --> 01:05:05,176
We're launching a single pay premium product.

921
01:05:05,176 --> 01:05:10,976
As all life insurance companies have annuities, that's where it gets really interesting.

922
01:05:11,636 --> 01:05:31,496
Fixed deferred annuities, Bitcoin denominated, to be able to, you know, 1035 exchange a dollar-based annuity into a Bitcoin-denominated annuity to get your Bitcoin exposure and annuitize a Bitcoin pension into your wallet or bank account on a monthly basis, for example, could be really powerful.

923
01:05:31,496 --> 01:05:41,796
And there's a ton of dollar-based annuities in the U.S. and around the world that might have an appetite for Bitcoin-based annuities through just a 1035 exchange.

924
01:05:42,156 --> 01:05:46,136
So there's a lot of products that life insurance companies bring to market.

925
01:05:46,436 --> 01:05:53,416
And when the life insurance industry shows up in the Bitcoin economy, you know that it's really maturing and that the adults are finally in the room.

926
01:05:53,856 --> 01:05:54,496
Yeah, for sure.

927
01:05:54,616 --> 01:05:55,076
I hear you there.

928
01:05:55,136 --> 01:05:57,276
How would you describe the ethos of Meanwhile?

929
01:05:57,716 --> 01:05:59,756
We have an amazing culture.

930
01:05:59,756 --> 01:06:07,816
we're a team of over 20 now i was employee number 10 in february of 2025 now we're over 20 we are

931
01:06:07,816 --> 01:06:14,956
trying to be lean using ai as much as possible we want to do what traditional life insurance

932
01:06:14,956 --> 01:06:20,436
companies do with a thousand people but with a hundred people and we all have seen you know we've

933
01:06:20,436 --> 01:06:25,416
raised two rounds this year that have been great we've gotten a lot of feedback i you know do

934
01:06:25,416 --> 01:06:31,236
podcasts and speak at conferences and and um the feedback i get is always wow this is a brilliant

935
01:06:31,236 --> 01:06:36,136
product it makes so much sense i i love all of it it's such a smart way to put your bitcoin

936
01:06:36,136 --> 01:06:42,556
the way you get yield is so clever no risk there's just there's a lot of uh positive momentum

937
01:06:42,556 --> 01:06:48,796
and i think our our my colleagues are all we're all on the same page that this is such a great

938
01:06:48,796 --> 01:06:53,616
company with an amazing vision we're the only ones that do what we do there's no competition

939
01:06:53,616 --> 01:06:59,596
at least not yet. Of course, we expect there will be competition. But yeah, you know, we have a big

940
01:06:59,596 --> 01:07:03,536
first mover advantage. And we're, we're very fortunate to have some of our like investors,

941
01:07:03,536 --> 01:07:08,696
like Apollo, Bain, and all the others and Northwestern Mutual behind us. So and they're

942
01:07:08,696 --> 01:07:13,856
really big helps too. Yeah, no, I could see that. Is your wife orange pills? What does she think of

943
01:07:13,856 --> 01:07:34,298
meanwhile She loves it This is actually her studio It called the chat room in Miami Beach she in like the media world but a lot of her clients and podcast clients are in crypto as well and um she been with me since 2014 and has obviously seen the ups and downs and the

944
01:07:34,298 --> 01:07:39,798
roller coasters and at one point was like you should go into fintech and give up crypto because

945
01:07:39,798 --> 01:07:46,138
oh my god it's crashing but she fully gets it uh she owns bitcoin her parents own bitcoin her

946
01:07:46,138 --> 01:07:51,218
siblings on Bitcoin. I mean, like I've orange pilled everyone in my life for the last 12 years.

947
01:07:51,938 --> 01:07:59,678
And she loves that this company makes a lot of sense that when I explain what we do, I mean,

948
01:08:00,158 --> 01:08:03,358
you would think Bitcoin denominator life insurance, well, this is going to be a doozy. But

949
01:08:03,358 --> 01:08:08,138
I think we do a pretty good job of having simplified the product to be able to explain it

950
01:08:08,138 --> 01:08:14,818
in really layman's terms so that anyone can understand it. Like I can make you understand

951
01:08:14,818 --> 01:08:21,858
life insurance and Bitcoin and tax advantage growth and repo and all these things, I think

952
01:08:21,858 --> 01:08:27,238
we could do it in a pretty succinct and easy to understand way, which allows people that are not

953
01:08:27,238 --> 01:08:32,418
experts in our field to level with you and understand what you're doing and how it works

954
01:08:32,418 --> 01:08:36,638
and say, it's not too complicated. I'll sign up for it. Why not?

955
01:08:37,058 --> 01:08:43,018
Yeah, that makes total sense. I have term life insurance. I now want Bitcoin denominated whole

956
01:08:43,018 --> 01:08:49,338
life insurance. That's definitely a game changer. I think that one thing that is really key here

957
01:08:49,338 --> 01:08:54,178
is for people that with Bitcoin, a lot of our policyholders don't think of this as life

958
01:08:54,178 --> 01:08:59,758
insurance. They think of this as a product that gives you yield, that allows you to monetize your

959
01:08:59,758 --> 01:09:04,738
Bitcoin without paying taxes, that allows you to pass on your Bitcoin to your beneficiaries,

960
01:09:04,918 --> 01:09:10,298
your family one day, tax-free, seamlessly, without having to leave a treasure map of

961
01:09:10,298 --> 01:09:15,298
private keys and ledgers and safes and safety deposit boxes. And it happens to take the form

962
01:09:15,298 --> 01:09:22,318
of life insurance. And I think that's the key here is that we're not selling you life insurance

963
01:09:22,318 --> 01:09:27,338
as much as we're selling you. No, let me take it back. We're not selling you life insurance.

964
01:09:27,338 --> 01:09:32,358
We're helping you with your Bitcoin journey. Yeah, I can see that. And everyone kind of needs

965
01:09:32,358 --> 01:09:36,298
help on the Bitcoin journey. It is a sovereign sort of self-owned journey, this personal

966
01:09:36,298 --> 01:09:40,418
responsibility, but we all learn from each other. And there are new things coming out all the time

967
01:09:40,418 --> 01:09:46,018
that are helpful and, you know, really kind of get us along the way here. And people are looking for,

968
01:09:46,098 --> 01:09:49,298
I'm sure, liquidity. We're trying to figure out what they should borrow against, whether they

969
01:09:49,298 --> 01:09:54,978
should sell, how they should manage it. So this has been very helpful. I'm sure we'll throw a link

970
01:09:54,978 --> 01:09:59,218
in the show notes, but where can people go to find out more about Meanwhile? Yeah, go to

971
01:09:59,218 --> 01:10:04,558
meanwhile.bm. We'll definitely give you a custom link for you for the show notes.

972
01:10:04,558 --> 01:10:11,038
meanwhile.bm that's our website you can reach out to me jason at meanwhile.bm bm stands for

973
01:10:11,038 --> 01:10:16,678
bermuda and i'll be happy to talk to you uh and and educate you and answer questions you might have

974
01:10:16,678 --> 01:10:23,878
um this has been a pleasure and i really appreciate uh your time and bitcoin matrix has always been a

975
01:10:23,878 --> 01:10:28,978
podcast i've been listening to for for a while so great to be on here yeah well thank you for coming

976
01:10:28,978 --> 01:10:33,718
on the show and breaking this all down for us i love what meanwhile is doing what you and zach

977
01:10:33,718 --> 01:10:36,918
are doing. So thank you so much for all the work you've been putting in. I really appreciate it.

978
01:10:36,938 --> 01:10:41,258
This has been so dope. Thank you very much. Thanks for tuning in to this episode of the

979
01:10:41,258 --> 01:10:46,558
Bitcoin Matrix. If you enjoyed the conversation, don't forget to like, subscribe and drop a comment

980
01:10:46,558 --> 01:10:51,298
below with any questions or thoughts you may have. We'd love to hear from you. You can support the

981
01:10:51,298 --> 01:10:55,698
show by checking out our sponsors and affiliate links in the description. It helps keep bringing

982
01:10:55,698 --> 01:11:00,138
you great content while connecting you with awesome products that I believe in. Share this

983
01:11:00,138 --> 01:11:04,778
episodes with your friends, family, or anyone curious about Bitcoin. And let's keep growing

984
01:11:04,778 --> 01:11:09,698
this community together. Stay curious, keep stacking, and I'll catch you in the next one.