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Hey, hey, welcome back to the Bitcoin Matrix podcast. I'm your host, Cedric Youngelman.

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more. Today, I'm sitting down with Joe Burnett for the fourth time to discuss his piece,

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The Singularity Has Begun. And this might just be our most important conversation yet.

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Joe makes a bold case. As intelligence becomes abundant and essentially free,

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wealth itself starts to melt. When AI models write their own code and you can spin up a trillion

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and Albert Einstein's on demand. What happens to your savings, your assets, everything you've

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worked for? We're diving into why diversification feels prudent but leaves people hopeless.

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Why meme coins and sports betting surge when traditional savings feel fragile.

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And why Bitcoin sits at this unique intersection at what Joe calls a terminal discovery,

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something that, like the number zero or a perfect circle, simply can't be improved upon.

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will also tackle some uncomfortable questions.

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Can AI agents become truly autonomous?

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What happens when your AI refuses to give you back your seed phrase?

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And is there really only one asset that abundant intelligence can't dilute?

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This goes deep into scarcity, abundance, money, and what it means

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to preserve wealth in a world being fundamentally reshaped by intelligence itself.

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If you're vibing with the show, like, subscribe, drop a five-star review, and share it with your friends and family.

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Get early ad-free episodes on Fountain.

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Grab merchandise or hit me up at thebitcoinmatrix.com.

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Shout out to this incredible community and to our sponsors and affiliates.

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I only partner with brands I actually use and trust.

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Support our sponsors and affiliates.

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Keep the Bitcoin Matrix independent.

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And now, let's enter the Bitcoin Matrix with my friend Joe Burnett.

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What is real?

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How do you define real?

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You can't jump into cash.

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Cash is trash.

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What do you do? You get out.

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Joe Burnett, welcome back to the Bitcoin Matrix for the fourth time.

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How are you?

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Hey, Cedric.

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Thanks for having me on. I'm doing great.

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Yeah, man. It's been a minute, I think almost a year maybe since we last spoke.

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We dropped this piece, The Singularity Has Begun.

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I wanted to kind of reach out and talk about it.

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I'm sure we could talk about maybe the markets and some of the volatility we've been experiencing.

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But this was interesting. The Singularity Has Begun.

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What inspired you to write this piece?

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A few things inspired me to write The Singularity Has Begun.

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One, and kind of jokingly, Twitter did that $1 million X competition, X article competition.

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So I wanted to throw my hat in the ring there to see if I can win.

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Unfortunately, it did not win.

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Did get 400 plus thousand impressions or views.

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So it did well, but needed maybe 40 million views, unfortunately.

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But I wrote it partially because, and you brought this up in the intro,

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I wrote a report titled Your Wealth is Melting, which was very similar to kind of what I published in The Singularity Has Begun.

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But it was expanded and I published it, Your Wealth is Melting, I think around spring of 2024.

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So it's been a while.

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and now with AI really catching on and you know Claude, ClaudeBot or now OpenClaw and you know

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Nvidia doing so well and Anthropic and OpenAI and so on and so forth people are really starting to

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catch on that things are changing in a really big way. Elon has even mentioned that he thinks

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the quote-unquote singularity has begun in some shape or form and so I thought that it would be a

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good idea to kind of reposition how I think Bitcoin fits into this world where technology

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is really starting to advance at a truly unprecedented pace and kind of what it means for

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so many different things. So happy to be talking about it.

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All right. Well, there's lots of impact there. What is the singularity?

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To me? Well, there's multiple, you know, there's different definitions for the word. But in my mind,

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it's like it's this idea that humanity is becoming incredibly advanced and we're all kind of like

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converging towards one thing that you know you don't necessarily even know what it is and it's

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kind of like a tipping point like a black hole where it's like okay it's this you know center

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of mass where you don't actually really know what's on the other side of it anything and so

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I think like with AI, it's advancing everything so rapidly that it's going to be a very positive

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feedback loop into how fast everything accelerates, right? Like, yeah, you have the humanoid robots,

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which, you know, could start building other humanoid robots. You have AI that can start

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designing more AI, more AI models. And so it kind of becomes this like circular positive feedback

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loop that really just takes you, once the robots start building the robots and the AI

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start building the AIs, it kind of takes you into this black hole of technology advancement

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that we don't necessarily even know what it is.

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And as you get closer to this horizon or the singularity, it accelerates faster and

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faster.

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And perhaps it's something that has started.

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Do you think it's already begun, the singularity?

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You know, it depends on how you define it.

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I would say yes. I mean, I think that, you know, like AI models, I think I saw like Anthropic or

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someone that worked at Anthropic has mentioned that the last, I guess, Opus like 4.6 or whatever

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it was, was mainly built by itself. You know, a lot of the code was built by itself. And then I

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think like Claude Cowork, it was like entirely built by like all of the code was written by

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clawed itself. And so it's like it's starting to get in this, you know, circular positive feedback

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loop where the AIs are actually starting to build AIs. And that's going to possibly have,

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you know, massive implications. And if it started, you know, things can move, you know,

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mind bogglingly fast to a normal person. What does it mean to go from scarce intelligence to

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abundant intelligence? So, you know, I think like, if you look back over, you know, the last 200

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years, like another people have kind of talked about like this, what's kind of what's happened

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in the past, really, of technology advancing over time, right? You have something like computers and

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the internet, which is like connected people all around the world, and eliminated like friction

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between individuals all around the world.

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And computers on top of the internet

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make processing faster and faster

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and data storage faster and faster.

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And so when you connect all this information together

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at a rapid pace

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and you have everyone around the world

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inputting information together,

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it starts feeding on itself

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and the entire market can kind of become more efficient

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and humans can become more productive

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and more abundance tends to be created.

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And so I think like looking at the past, intelligence has kind of been bound by humans.

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Like, you know, you go to school for 12 plus years and go to college and some people go and, you know, get master's degrees or Ph.D.

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And they and it takes them a very long time to do that.

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And then they, you know, still even once you've accumulated all of that intelligence or that wisdom, potentially, there's only so much you can work on and there's only so much you can do so fast.

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And so the amount of PhDs in the world, whether some, you know, some PhDs, I guess, could be bad for society if you're an econ PhD.

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But there are other PhDs that are probably good for society.

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Those, you know, there's a select few of them.

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And those are people that are making new scientific discoveries, making new mathematics discoveries, so on and so forth.

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That's a very, you know, limited set of the population.

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or even just tinker someone that has no college degree or as a you know or does have a college

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degree like someone like the Wright brothers like they were just kind of entrepreneurial tinkers

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that actually you know basically invented flight it takes time to come up with that and you know

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it takes intelligence to do that whereas if we and I would argue over the last you know ever since

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you know before today intelligence has been scarce it's been limited by human capacity whereas going

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forward, these AI models that effectively have, you know, the knowledge of the universe kind of

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compressed into, you know, one computer with a lot of memory, and the computer can work really fast,

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can kind of bring that intelligence to the world. And now all of a sudden, you know, you can spin

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up, you know, a billion Albert Einsteins, or a billion Wright brothers, all tinkering and testing

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and working as agents on their own, interacting with each other.

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And, you know, I'm not saying that these models today are Albert Einstein or the Wright brothers

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or whatnot.

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They're accelerating really fast.

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And in some ways, they probably are better than Albert Einstein and the Wright brothers

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in certain capacities.

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And so I think that we've had this, you know, scarcity of intelligence.

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We're approaching this tipping point where we do have a trillion Albert Einsteins.

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And it's kind of hard to, you know, or it's, you know, maybe impossible to kind of see what happens once we get there.

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And it could happen really fast.

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Yeah, I mean, it seems like it's happening really fast.

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I'm trying to figure out if the AIs writing their own code is sort of like a Wright Brothers moment.

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Or where is the Wright Brothers moment in AI, where it goes from more of a zero to one type thing for humanity?

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It's a good question.

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I mean, I don't know.

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I mean, like in a way, yes, like the Wright brothers were like a zero to one moment, you know, discovering flight and enabling it.

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But they did it like via like tinkering and just kind of like trying a bunch of different things.

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Like they were intelligent in the way that they did it, but they were kind of just entrepreneurial like tinkers.

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You know, they had their bike shop and they would, you know, look at birds and try to reenact how the birds are flying and try to create flight out of watching nature.

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And so, you know, I guess it's debatable and like whether AI has ever had a zero to one moment like that. But I think like, I don't know, like the history of science in my mind is, yes, you have to have like some intelligence and you can create different things.

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But in the day, a lot of science is like proposing a hypothesis and then testing your hypothesis and doing that over and over again until you've kind of identified how the world actually works or how a certain invention actually.

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And so, I mean, debatable, I guess, whether that has happened.

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But I think at some point it's probably going to be happening.

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This is how we win Yeah I also struggle with how much of the development in AI is actual experimentation and with an unknown outcomes versus sort of a planned rollout that appears that way

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That's like a planned rollout that appears organic. And one of the reasons I question that

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is because sometimes I either watch movies or I'm reading a book now that was written,

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I think in the nineties, that refers to the government using artificial intelligence in

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like the 70s. And so then what is artificial intelligence? And what did it mean then? What

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does it mean now? Did it mean the same thing at both times? But how did LLMs change things in the

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early 2020s? I mean, I think what it did for me, you know, I look back at, you know, different

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technologies that I've used in my life, like the internet, truly a transformational technology,

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the iPhone, truly a transformational technology, Bitcoin itself, obviously, if you're listening to

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podcast, you probably think Bitcoin is a transformational technology. To me, like the

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first time I used ChatGPT, you know, whether it was 2022 or 2023, whatever year it was,

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like I was like, wow, this is, yeah, it's not perfect. You know, at first it started,

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it did some hallucinations and it still does to some extent today. It was pretty like, I was like,

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wow, like this is, this has the potential to like completely change the world. Like,

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especially as it gets better and the context window gets better over time. And I think that

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like we're kind of starting to see that with things like open claw where it's like okay chat

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gpt and and claude and all these uh like chatbot like interfaces are are actually incredibly useful

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despite like them being siloed in their own thing like you basically it has you know if you think

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about these models like they're trained on information all over the internet they're you

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know relatively huge models and you can ask it a pretty you know detailed question about some

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detailed thing in the world and actually has a pretty good answer most of the time.

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And it even did kind of back then.

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And so it's like, okay, that's how these work.

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But if you start pairing it with something like OpenClaw, where not only does it have

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like kind of generalized knowledge of how the world works, but it has the knowledge

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of everything that you've ever done in your entire life with your messages, your emails,

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you know, documents, files, so on and so forth.

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all right, it's probably going to, you know, it's pretty close to probably being better than most

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humans are at their at their job today. And so I think to me, it's like these LLMs are incredibly

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transformational, because of how as the models get better, as they keep building out these data

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centers, like it's only going to get better from here, you can kind of like see over the horizon,

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how much that you know, this could change how cheap this could make, quote unquote, intelligence.

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And I think that that's going to have like transformational effects for how wealth is stored and so on and so forth.

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Yeah. I mean, talking about the cost of intelligence is beginning to collapse rapidly.

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What kind of effect does that have on businesses?

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I'd have to imagine, you know, look at a company like Amazon or Google, these behemoths.

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They're not as small as something like Tether in terms of physical human footprint, human capital.

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Thousands of employees still, large HR departments, large compliance departments.

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Are the new unicorns and huge businesses of the future going to be one person spinning up an army of AI agents, you know, to have their army of AI HR bots, an army of their compliance bots?

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And why even then rely on human power to build your corporation or your incorporated entity?

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Yeah, there's so many ways that this could end up, you know, playing out.

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And part of the singularity, I think, is it's so hard to tell exactly what's going to happen.

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But I think you're, like, directionally correct.

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I agree. You know, one thing that I think we've seen recently, and people have been comparing

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Bitcoin to this, is IG, I think it's IGV, which is an ETF that holds a variety of software as a

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service companies. And that has been absolutely tanking recently. Different arguments as to why

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that's necessarily the case. But to me, one of the prevailing arguments seems to be, well, AI is

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potentially massively disrupting a lot of the core business models of these pure software as a

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service companies. And kind of like, you know, we've seen this is like you have, you know, a CRM

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for your company, and you pay Salesforce, you know, lots of money to just have that CRM working.

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Well, if you can go to cursor or cloud code or open AI's codex, and say, hey, build me a CRM.

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Here's how we've been using it in the past. Here's the specs that I really want. Here's the

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industry that I'm in. Here's how a typical workflow works. I mean, it can pretty much

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vibe code one of these, not perfectly at the moment, but I mean, in a pretty good manner,

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pretty fast. And all of a sudden, you know, if you're paying, I don't know, a million dollars

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a year for Salesforce and you just vibe coded one basically for free and you just host it yourself

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or you host it in the cloud. I mean, you could save like practically infinite amount of return

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on investment, you know, vibe coding your own software. And so part of what we're seeing,

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I think, in software service companies is just the revaluation of those companies, because

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why would you buy, you know, if these are historically treated like growth companies,

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and you're buying them at 10x sales or 20x sales, like there's no room for error in that valuation,

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like those companies better keep operating for a very long time, they better keep growing at an

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extremely rapid pace. And if there's some sort of new risk that like can derail that growth or,

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you know, at the very worst case, completely destroy their entire business model, like that's

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a very serious risk that is kind of eating into the moats of a lot of these software as a service

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companies. And I think that like, you know, the future of business is probably going to be kind

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of like what you're suggesting where there's one person that has a really good idea and he you know

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tells his agents this idea or he has agents surfing twitter 24 7 365 looking for people's problems

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identifying potential ideas and then you know ordering another batch of agents to go out and

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build that product and then market it to those people that have those problems it seems like the

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almost the world is kind of decentralizing in kind of a unique way. And those smaller businesses

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that are very agile and quick and can attack the margins of all of these existing megacorporations

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that exist in the world. A lot of moats, I think, are kind of being destroyed in software as a

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service companies, but arguably many companies kind of around the world. And it's probably going

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to be like the small ones that can move really fast and are willing to kind of break things

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that are probably going to start kind of eating at the moats of these larger corporations.

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With the internet, we had a lot of, we'd call it the dematerializing of things.

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And so the bitcoins are a dematerialization of money or, you know, sort of software,

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sort of the physical world.

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But what does this end up going to be termed?

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Because this is like the deterioration of almost information gatekeeping.

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But it does, in some ways, you know, I think the internet has made us less maybe efficient

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or, you know, we thought we'd have more free time because the internet and people just seem

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more bogged down and more to do. Your inbox is fuller, more comes your way because you can get

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more done. You're on 24 seven, but AI seems like you could sort of do without the whole compliance

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department or the sales team or the marketing team or R&D. What is it sort of dematerializing

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there or eating away at in terms of, I mean, what's the phrase we're going to use is sort of how

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I'm trying to think about it.

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It's a good question.

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I mean, I don't necessarily know what the phrase would be called.

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I think it's like, one, it's just creating a lot of uncertainty.

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And that could be, you know, in a way, it's arguably eating away against human capital

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to some extent.

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And that's why, you know, people like Elon Musk will promote things like, hey, like,

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eventually we'll need UBI or universal high income because the AIs will be incredibly good

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at, you know, doing something a human can do.

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but faster and better and cheaper. So yeah, I don't know what the correct phrase will be.

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It'll probably be obvious in hindsight though. Right. How did the financial crisis of 2008,

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2009 change the trajectory of things psychologically? Yeah. I mean, I think

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if you look back at 2008, 2009, like a lot of people look at, you know, what happened in the

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world and there was a lot of like uncertainty in the world, obviously. And out of that crisis

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came Bitcoin, right? Which Bitcoin is a fairly new monetary tool. Now it's been around for 17 years.

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And I think that that's kind of arguably part of the singularity argument. And we can get into that

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in particular. But I think like after 2008, 2009, people kind of went risk off. The MAG7 started to

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expand a good bit. Like that's basically, you know, if you think back to post 2008, you know,

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should have bought a lot of should have bought a lot of Bitcoin, obviously. But if you didn't buy

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that, you know, any mag seven stock obviously did incredibly well, too. So it was kind of like the

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rise of big tech, which ultimately led to the rise of of AI and, you know, cheaper intelligence.

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And it's also at the same time kind of led to the rise of Bitcoin, which I think they're very

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connected in a pretty deep way. But yeah, I think that's kind of what happened after 2008, 2009.

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What is the relationship between abundance and savings? I'm getting a world where I mean,

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I feel like everything's going to be abundant and maybe there'll be UBI.

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Why do I need to save or what's my relationship with savings?

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Yeah, and this is a really interesting question.

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You know, it's people like Elon Musk have said that you won't need money in this post-scarcity world where everything is truly abundant.

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And it's an interesting argument because, you know, I can see that perspective.

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the way I've thought about it is, well, today, you know, we're not, we're not in a post scarcity

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world, unfortunately, right? Like there's, there's a lot of scarcity in my life and a lot of scarcity

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and, you know, probably the viewers lives as well. Things, you know, we'd want our time back.

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We'd want, you know, better house, cheaper food, so on and so forth, better vacation. There is a

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lot of scarcity today, but it's pretty clear, clear if, if, in my, my perspective that we're

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We're trending towards this post-scarcity world or total abundance world.

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And I would argue probably with Elon that maybe we'll never actually reach this post-scarcity world.

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It's something that we're always trending to.

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And it's kind of hard to tell if we'll ever reach it or if we do ever reach it, what's exactly on the other side of it.

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But I would say we're trending to that.

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And, you know, the abundance of intelligence via AI models is going to accelerate us towards that post-scarcity world.

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But we're clearly not there yet.

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And so I think Bitcoin plays a pretty important role or money plays a pretty important role today.

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And as we head towards that post-scarcity world and the way I've thought about it is just like I was outlining with the software service companies,

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That same concept of, you know, kind of technology deflation eating at the wealth that's stored in software as a service companies, you know, taking a step back, like Jeff Booth has his thesis of technology deflation, where the cost of basic, you know, goods and services should trend down over time measured in, you know, a sound form of money.

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And in dollar terms, basic goods and services are designed to keep going up at roughly 2% to 3% per year.

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But if you measure basic goods and services in gold, they've been trending down forever, basically, due to a natural technology deflation.

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Your Wealth is Melting Report and the Singularity article that I wrote kind of takes that idea and then applies it to every single traditional asset class that exists today.

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and it's just like I outlined with the software as a service companies,

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intelligence and abundance of intelligence is going to slowly start eating at all of these

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traditional asset classes. And I think that as that happens, and as we're not in a post-scarcity

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world today, as someone that needs to accumulate more wealth just for safety, security, and pleasure

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reasons, my job as a capital allocator, whether that's a business or an individual person

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or an institution is to figure out, okay, well, my objective is to increase my wealth that I'm

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allocating. I need to figure out where to allocate this to. And in the world where we're turning

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towards post-scarcity and the decreasing cost of intelligence is eating at a lot of traditional

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stores of value, Bitcoin sits as this one unique tool that no matter how much intelligence or

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energy exists in the world, we're never actually going to be able to create more than 21 million

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Bitcoin. And so that makes Bitcoin an incredibly useful tool in this current world where there is

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scarcity. But as we're trending toward this world of abundance, Bitcoin arguably becomes more and

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more important as long as you still need wealth and savings, as long as there's still scarcity

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in the world, I think it's important.

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Right.

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I definitely feel all that.

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Well, you mentioned the uncertainty.

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So what about people thinking about sort of capital allocation, diversification, and

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there a lot of maybe hopelessness because of this uncertainty Yeah uncertainty is an interesting thing And one thing that I like about how Pierre Richard has framed this in the past is he views Bitcoin as

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the least uncertain asset. And, you know, it's kind of it's a double negative. So it's kind of

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a weird way to say it. But I think it's a it's an intellectually honest way to explain it. You

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know, Bitcoin, like it's not guaranteed, right? Like any, you know, anything could happen. Like

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our thesis could be wrong for whatever reason. I don't think that's the case. And like I said,

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I think it's the least uncertain tool, monetary tool that exists because of its unique monetary

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properties and because of how difficult it is to change Bitcoin's monetary policy.

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And so because Bitcoin is the least uncertain tool, that's what you need, you know, for

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money.

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You need to save the least uncertain tool and that would enable you to survive for the

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longest.

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And as the other tools are subject to more uncertainty, you know, they could be devalued

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for the reasons kind of that I've explained.

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We can buy more gold. We're going to print more dollars, look for more seashells on the beach,

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so on and so forth. I think that having an asset that has the least amount of uncertainty

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becomes incredibly important in a world that is increasing in uncertainty. Kind of like we talked

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about with software as a service company, something is valued at 10, 20x sales. It's

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priced to perfection. This thing better keep growing for the next five to 10 years. And there

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better be no uncertainty. In fact, it better exceed expectations if you want to like actually

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get the returns that you're expecting. And in reality, risk, you know, Jeff Walton at Strive

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says this, like risk is mispriced. And I think that that's very clear in something like software

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as a service company trading at 10 to 20x sales. And it's arguably, you know, mispriced everywhere

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outside of Bitcoin, which gives me hope and excitement that I think a lot of capital

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will probably end up flowing into Bitcoin just a matter of time.

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The risk aspect is a really interesting and I think really formidable way of looking at

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the uncertainty and just sort of where the markets are right now.

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I want to read a bit from your article.

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Diversification feels prudent.

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At the same time, something else happens.

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People also feel hopeless.

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When savings feel fragile and effort feels disconnected from outcomes, behavior polarizes.

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Some people retreat into caution.

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Others swing toward nihilistic risk-taking.

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Sports betting surges.

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Meme stocks attract capital.

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Meme coins explode in popularity.

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These bets are not about upside.

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They are about escape.

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When savings melt slowly, people look for meaning in extremes they feel ordinary effort can never achieve.

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Savings represent deferred effort.

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They reflect years of work, discipline, and planning.

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They depend on the idea that value today will persist into the future.

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When intelligence becomes abundant, that assumption weakens.

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Assets lose durability.

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Portfolios feel unstable.

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Savings feels as though they are slowly melting.

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Careers face similar pressure.

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Many jobs exist because intelligence remains costly.

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As intelligence becomes cheap, work loses usefulness.

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Effort stops guaranteeing preservation of value.

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identity tied to profession becomes fragile time begins to feel mispriced dignity tied to output

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weakens families feel the strain people ask quiet questions about purpose effort and security this

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reaction is rational the singularity has begun i think that's kind of a poignant piece of the

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article how does money sit at the center of intelligence and scarcity yeah i'm glad you

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you read that those few paragraphs that was a good one so like one way that i've i've thought

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about this in the past is you have the dollar today, which one way I've been kind of explaining

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the dollar recently is it's a token that's pegged to a basket of consumer goods. What do I mean by

385
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that? Well, the Fed has their mandate of 2% to 2% to 3% now, I guess, in consumer price inflation.

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So they want the dollar to be pegged to basic consumer goods and services and growing by

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two to three percent per year as intelligence becomes free or pretty much close to it which

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is kind of what we're seeing then that's going to make these very basic consumer goods and services

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you know intelligence is arguably like the the core input to all basic consumer goods and services

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like whether it's a core commodity that's needed to produce a consumer goods and service or you

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know, a factory that's needed or transporting the commodity to the factory or transporting

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the product to the store or so on and so forth.

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Like all that is composed of intelligence and commodities.

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And then commodities are effectively just, okay, well, how, how, how fast can we, and

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how cheaply can we create more of this commodity, which is really just also a function of intelligence.

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Like if you look back at the historical gold supply that's mined every year, one of the

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most scarce commodities in the world, humans are becoming pretty good at mining a lot more gold

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over time. And again, that's one of the most scarce commodities in the world.

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So if intelligence is an input cost to all of these basic goods and services,

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and then the dollar is pegged to these basic goods and services, and in fact, the goods and

401
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services need to actually get more expensive measured in dollars, then the amount and dollar,

402
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the dollar is our form of money and how we're thinking about saving for the many people are

403
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thinking about saving for the future. Well, if intelligence is going, the cost of intelligence

404
00:33:31,424 --> 00:33:35,984
is going trending towards zero and basic goods and services are trending towards zero,

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that means the amount of money that needs to enter the system to keep the consumer goods and services

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going up measured in dollars needs to expand. We need to create, keep creating more dollars. And

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And arguably, it's kind of been happening for the last 50 years.

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Government's getting bigger.

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The banking system's getting bigger.

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Rates got driven down to 0%.

411
00:33:57,964 --> 00:34:03,084
Quantitative easing, it pumped up asset prices, but it didn't cause hyperinflation.

412
00:34:03,284 --> 00:34:04,724
In a way, it kind of worked.

413
00:34:05,304 --> 00:34:10,904
And so we need to keep creating more dollar credit in order to make sure that this massive

414
00:34:10,904 --> 00:34:16,824
deflation doesn't just push the prices of basic goods and services towards zero.

415
00:34:16,824 --> 00:34:29,684
And so in that scenario, when we need to create more dollars, dollars kind of become incredibly abundant and measured in something like gold or arguably Bitcoin, which is perfectly scarce.

416
00:34:30,104 --> 00:34:38,464
If we're creating a massive amount of dollars, well, dollars don't necessarily work super well as a savings technology that we've used in the past.

417
00:34:38,464 --> 00:34:47,484
Maybe Bitcoin is going to be that savings technology and it could become increasingly more abundant as all of this begins to play out.

418
00:34:47,484 --> 00:34:50,424
When it comes to Bitcoin, the rules are simple.

419
00:34:51,024 --> 00:34:55,384
Run your own node, hold your own keys, and protect your seed phrase.

420
00:34:56,024 --> 00:34:57,804
That's where MicroSeed comes in.

421
00:34:58,484 --> 00:35:03,064
Unlike bulky backups, MicroSeed is stamped onto a tiny steel washer.

422
00:35:03,764 --> 00:35:09,324
Fireproof, waterproof, and so small you can carry it anywhere or hide it in plain sight.

423
00:35:09,904 --> 00:35:15,004
Go to MicroSeed.io and use the code MATRIX for a discount on your order.

424
00:35:15,004 --> 00:35:22,044
So I want to read a little bit more. The first couple of pieces here kind of rephrase what you

425
00:35:22,044 --> 00:35:26,004
just said. But the end of this, I think, is sort of a new expression of what you just said. So

426
00:35:26,004 --> 00:35:31,444
money sits at the center of this tension. Money coordinates value across time. It records

427
00:35:31,444 --> 00:35:36,764
contribution. It preserves purchasing power. It allows effort today to translate into security

428
00:35:36,764 --> 00:35:41,644
tomorrow. As intelligence accelerates, the goods and services money is meant to measure and preserve

429
00:35:41,644 --> 00:35:45,904
become increasingly abundant. When money is pegged to a basket of goods whose production

430
00:35:45,904 --> 00:35:50,484
intelligence continually cheapens, money itself becomes abundant. So that's you referring to the

431
00:35:50,484 --> 00:35:56,564
inflation rate and the CPI. As intelligence and abundance spreads, money loses its ability to

432
00:35:56,564 --> 00:36:02,144
coordinate what remains scarce across time. A system optimized for a slower world struggles

433
00:36:02,144 --> 00:36:07,984
under speed. That was fascinating. You then include a quote from Marshall McLuhan, which I don't know

434
00:36:07,984 --> 00:36:13,744
if I've ever heard. We shape our tools and thereafter our tools shape us. And then what is

435
00:36:13,744 --> 00:36:18,744
terminal discovery? One way that I've thought about this in the past is like, okay, like,

436
00:36:18,744 --> 00:36:25,724
you know, the counter argument to everything kind of that I've said would be like, okay, AI and the

437
00:36:25,724 --> 00:36:32,044
decreasing cost of intelligence is going to make, you know, is going to eat at the mode of everything

438
00:36:32,044 --> 00:36:37,724
except Bitcoin. The counter argument would be, well, how do you know that AI is not going to

439
00:36:37,724 --> 00:36:42,504
create a better Bitcoin, right? Like, I mean, how do you know AI is not going to eat at the mode of

440
00:36:42,504 --> 00:36:49,224
Bitcoin? And so the way I framed it is, okay, Bitcoin is, and specifically perfect scarcity,

441
00:36:49,884 --> 00:36:55,904
is a terminal discovery. Just like the number zero, you know, Robert Breedlove wrote an interesting

442
00:36:55,904 --> 00:37:01,224
piece many years ago about this, is kind of like a terminal discovery. You can't create something

443
00:37:01,224 --> 00:37:06,184
more nothing than nothing. You can go to negative numbers, right? But that's not nothing. That's the

444
00:37:06,184 --> 00:37:10,504
opposite of something. So there's not, it's not actually possible to create something more zero

445
00:37:10,504 --> 00:37:16,384
than the number zero. It's kind of like a complete discovery. Another thing is like the wheel.

446
00:37:17,004 --> 00:37:23,344
You can't make the wheel or a circle more round. It's as round as it could possibly be. I think

447
00:37:23,344 --> 00:37:29,204
perfect scarcity is the same way in the sense that, okay, you can't create something more scarce

448
00:37:29,204 --> 00:37:34,364
than perfect scarcity. Like you have to, you'd have to start taking from someone else that has

449
00:37:34,364 --> 00:37:40,644
something to make it less even more scarce than perfect scarcity. And then again, that's kind of

450
00:37:40,644 --> 00:37:45,844
like create weird incentives doing that and can't really necessarily do that. So perfect scarcity

451
00:37:45,844 --> 00:37:53,144
itself is kind of like this terminal discovery and therefore AI and you're the best AI model in the

452
00:37:53,144 --> 00:37:58,424
world can't create something more zero than a number zero, more round than a circle or more

453
00:37:58,424 --> 00:38:02,464
scarce than perfect scarcity. Now, like the technology and like the way that we interact

454
00:38:02,464 --> 00:38:09,364
with perfect scarcity, which I would say we call Bitcoin, that technology can change over time and

455
00:38:09,364 --> 00:38:14,544
has changed over time. We've had things like SegWit. We've had things like Taproot. If quantum

456
00:38:14,544 --> 00:38:20,464
computers become a more visible threat, the network can upgrade its cryptography to quantum

457
00:38:20,464 --> 00:38:26,524
resistant cryptography. Bitcoin is resistant to change and the monetary policy is incredibly

458
00:38:26,524 --> 00:38:31,044
difficult to change. It's probably the least uncertain monetary policy in the world, I would

459
00:38:31,044 --> 00:38:37,524
argue. But the way that, you know, the technology around Bitcoin can change and probably, in my

460
00:38:37,524 --> 00:38:42,484
opinion, probably will change to some extent if the community deems it worthy to do so.

461
00:38:43,324 --> 00:38:48,664
And so that's what I meant in terms of like terminal discovery is this idea of perfect

462
00:38:48,664 --> 00:38:57,224
scarcity is a terminal discovery. And wealth kind of outside this perfect scarcity, as we enter the

463
00:38:57,224 --> 00:39:03,964
singularity becomes harder and harder to keep that wealth outside the perfect scarcity in the

464
00:39:03,964 --> 00:39:10,944
sense that, okay, if humanity holds $30 trillion worth of wealth in gold, that's a huge bounty to

465
00:39:10,944 --> 00:39:16,204
go figure out how to mine more gold, sell it, cash it out to perfect scarcity. And so in a way,

466
00:39:16,204 --> 00:39:21,804
this is kind of another way to kind of frame the singularity is all the wealth in the world is

467
00:39:21,804 --> 00:39:29,064
trying to get sucked into Bitcoin. Or there's a huge economic incentive to do that. Because if you

468
00:39:29,064 --> 00:39:34,424
keep wealth outside of Bitcoin, where there's abundance and intelligence is driving, the cost

469
00:39:34,424 --> 00:39:39,464
of intelligence is going to zero. And therefore, the cost of everything else is also kind of going

470
00:39:39,464 --> 00:39:44,824
to zero. Well, there's a huge economic incentive to produce more of what we're trying to store our

471
00:39:44,824 --> 00:39:49,984
wealth in outside of Bitcoin. And Bitcoin is kind of like, you know, at the end of the waterfall,

472
00:39:49,984 --> 00:40:04,964
Michael Saylor has kind of had his waterfall analogy before where he's kind of just outlining that, hey, there's potential energy all around Bitcoin because there's a huge economic incentive to create more of what we're trying to store our wealth in.

473
00:40:04,964 --> 00:40:12,824
And Bitcoin being this perfectly scarce asset is kind of just like the natural flow point of that potential energy.

474
00:40:13,324 --> 00:40:20,744
Because once it's inside Bitcoin, no matter how much intelligence or energy we produce, we're not going to be able to create any more Bitcoin.

475
00:40:20,744 --> 00:40:27,924
It's awesome how you're linking prior pieces like the number zero from Breedlove, your own piece, the wealth, your wealth is melting.

476
00:40:27,924 --> 00:40:30,344
and then sort of looping in incentives,

477
00:40:30,704 --> 00:40:33,344
especially around sort of the idea that you really extrapolated on

478
00:40:33,344 --> 00:40:37,664
and your wealth is melting around how any business really has a bounty on it,

479
00:40:38,104 --> 00:40:41,584
whether it's the video store that does rentals in town

480
00:40:41,584 --> 00:40:45,704
and Blockbuster moves in to eat their lunch and so on.

481
00:40:45,704 --> 00:40:47,904
And Netflix then comes in to eat their lunch.

482
00:40:48,124 --> 00:40:50,164
There's always an attack on profits anywhere.

483
00:40:50,484 --> 00:40:55,104
But it's interesting, something Eric Balchunas from Bloomberg mentioned,

484
00:40:55,104 --> 00:40:59,444
And, you know, Bitcoin was the only thing created without sort of a profit motive in mind.

485
00:40:59,444 --> 00:41:01,564
And there was no profit margin on Bitcoin.

486
00:41:01,564 --> 00:41:07,884
And then you loop in perfect scarcity, which kind of touches on Cretius' piece, Jesse Myers.

487
00:41:08,124 --> 00:41:10,424
So I want to read a bit more from yours before we move on.

488
00:41:10,564 --> 00:41:12,304
So this was a terminal discovery.

489
00:41:12,584 --> 00:41:15,044
Perfect digital scarcity alters incentives.

490
00:41:15,704 --> 00:41:18,844
When wealth is stored in assets that intelligence can replicate,

491
00:41:19,544 --> 00:41:21,844
intelligence receives a signal to replicate them.

492
00:41:21,844 --> 00:41:25,744
Store wealth in gold and the incentive to extract more increases.

493
00:41:25,744 --> 00:41:28,684
Store wealth in housing and construction accelerates.

494
00:41:28,684 --> 00:41:32,424
Store wealth in companies and competition attacks profit margins.

495
00:41:32,424 --> 00:41:45,726
Store wealth in something that cannot be replicated and intelligence encounters a boundary That boundary changes capital flows Capital moves towards what to resist dilution This movement occurs through incentives rather

496
00:41:45,726 --> 00:41:51,366
than belief, like gravity pulling water over a waterfall. Zero represents complete nothingness.

497
00:41:51,726 --> 00:41:56,606
There cannot be more nothing than nothing. A wheel represents perfect rotation. It cannot become

498
00:41:56,606 --> 00:42:02,266
more round. As intelligence collapses, the cost of production wealth needs an anchor that

499
00:42:02,266 --> 00:42:07,726
intelligence cannot erode. Wealth generated by abundance needs a place to rest. Savings melt

500
00:42:07,726 --> 00:42:12,526
unless it is anchored to something intelligence cannot create more of. As value concentrates

501
00:42:12,526 --> 00:42:18,506
towards assets immune to replication, distortions elsewhere ease. Housing becomes a place to live

502
00:42:18,506 --> 00:42:23,326
rather than a store of excess capital. Gold and silver extraction loses speculative pressure.

503
00:42:23,946 --> 00:42:29,266
Capital concentrates in perfect digital scarcity. While productive enterprises receive allocation

504
00:42:29,266 --> 00:42:33,186
only when they generate real cash flow and genuine productivity,

505
00:42:33,606 --> 00:42:37,266
further collapsing the cost of intelligence and further accelerating abundance.

506
00:42:37,706 --> 00:42:41,306
So does Bitcoin compete with artificial intelligence?

507
00:42:41,766 --> 00:42:42,646
It's a good question.

508
00:42:42,866 --> 00:42:48,026
I think it would depend on what you define competing with artificial intelligence by

509
00:42:48,026 --> 00:42:51,226
in the sense that, you know, I would view Bitcoin as money.

510
00:42:51,946 --> 00:42:54,886
And therefore, if you're an intelligent capital allocator,

511
00:42:54,886 --> 00:42:56,866
you want to make money and not lose money.

512
00:42:56,866 --> 00:43:01,726
you know you think about like bitcoin is the hurdle rate obviously you know that's the

513
00:43:01,726 --> 00:43:06,306
matt cole and ben workman and jeff walton have the hurdle rate podcast and i think that that

514
00:43:06,306 --> 00:43:12,886
the entire idea of bitcoin is the hurdle rate is incredibly important and you know the way i've

515
00:43:12,886 --> 00:43:16,526
kind of outlined you know everything today it's like okay it's hard to keep wealth actually outside

516
00:43:16,526 --> 00:43:23,726
of bitcoin if there is a really good idea that needs to be pursued and the expected risk adjusted

517
00:43:23,726 --> 00:43:29,546
return is higher than just holding your Bitcoin, then it's actually a great idea to invest your

518
00:43:29,546 --> 00:43:35,386
Bitcoin into something. Maybe it's anthropic, maybe it's open AI, artificial intelligence,

519
00:43:35,586 --> 00:43:40,386
however you want to frame it. But also perhaps if it's priced like a software as a service company

520
00:43:40,386 --> 00:43:46,586
trading at 10 to 20x sales, then maybe it's not a good idea to do that. So like, does Bitcoin

521
00:43:46,586 --> 00:43:51,446
compete with artificial intelligence? Maybe it can compete with specific companies, like

522
00:43:51,446 --> 00:43:57,606
potentially some companies at the right valuation could be a good investment. But I wouldn't

523
00:43:57,606 --> 00:44:02,566
necessarily say it competes with artificial intelligence, the concept or the idea or the

524
00:44:02,566 --> 00:44:07,446
product itself. In fact, I think they're very complimentary. I think artificial intelligence

525
00:44:07,446 --> 00:44:14,806
is arguably working to make Bitcoin increasingly more valuable at a faster and faster rate over

526
00:44:14,806 --> 00:44:18,606
time. So if anything, they're kind of on the same team. Do they compete for like power?

527
00:44:18,606 --> 00:44:24,986
uh yeah that's uh you know like in in the short term that's definitely been a case that we've

528
00:44:24,986 --> 00:44:30,646
seen right like a lot of the public bitcoin miners have pivoted towards ai and the market

529
00:44:30,646 --> 00:44:36,046
has has kind of rewarded them well for for that for at least the time being so yeah like in that

530
00:44:36,046 --> 00:44:41,306
way just just like you know potentially investing in open ai or anthropic at the right valuation

531
00:44:41,306 --> 00:44:45,306
may have outperformed bitcoin over a certain amount of time it doesn't mean that it's going

532
00:44:45,306 --> 00:44:50,326
to continue in the future. But yeah, I mean, just you might make more money building a data center

533
00:44:50,326 --> 00:44:58,126
and plugging it into your nearest power generator, running it out, running out the GPUs to whoever.

534
00:44:58,946 --> 00:45:03,606
And that might be more profitable than holding Bitcoin in the short term. But in the long term,

535
00:45:03,726 --> 00:45:08,346
I think it's all the same concepts that I've kind of argued in the past where like

536
00:45:08,346 --> 00:45:15,286
the excess profits kind of go away. And it might just be the best long term decision is probably

537
00:45:15,286 --> 00:45:20,606
just to hold hold bitcoin all right i got a couple questions about ai do you see uh any negatives

538
00:45:20,606 --> 00:45:25,186
from ai or sort of you know think do you think about things like how it could be used as a

539
00:45:25,186 --> 00:45:31,186
financial surveillance or just a surveillance weapon against humanity do you worry about you

540
00:45:31,186 --> 00:45:38,026
know a nefarious ai getting out and doing harmful things and having you know malicious intent or are

541
00:45:38,026 --> 00:45:43,846
these like you know fantastical things that just can't happen and um no i mean i think that that's

542
00:45:43,846 --> 00:45:49,706
a very valid concern, right? I mean, you'll see, you know, people, I haven't heard this phrase in

543
00:45:49,706 --> 00:45:54,686
a while, but like P doom, probability of doom is something that's common in the AI community,

544
00:45:54,686 --> 00:45:59,046
where it's like, okay, well, like at the end of this singularity or whatever, whatever we're

545
00:45:59,046 --> 00:46:03,406
experiencing, right, you know, right now or in the soon to be future, well, who's to say that

546
00:46:03,406 --> 00:46:10,186
one of these AIs doesn't just, you know, create a million times powerful nuclear bomb and the world

547
00:46:10,186 --> 00:46:16,666
just ends humanity just ends like if you if you kind of take it to the extreme like that's i guess

548
00:46:16,666 --> 00:46:21,246
possible you never you don't really know and i don't think it can necessarily be stopped i mean

549
00:46:21,246 --> 00:46:26,986
i think that there's benefits to ai too as i've kind of outlined in before and so it's it's kind

550
00:46:26,986 --> 00:46:32,206
of hard to know exactly how this is going to play out and of course any tool that makes an individual

551
00:46:32,206 --> 00:46:37,966
like more powerful can be used for both good or evil just like a you know a gun or or any sort of

552
00:46:37,966 --> 00:46:42,806
weapon like it can be used for good good and evil it's just the tools are increasingly getting

553
00:46:42,806 --> 00:46:49,166
more powerful as humanity continues to to advance and if those tools end up in the wrong individual's

554
00:46:49,166 --> 00:46:54,606
hands or the wrong government's hands then that could create some some problems but i think you

555
00:46:54,606 --> 00:46:59,926
know another counter argument to that is like okay well it can also increase like the defensive

556
00:46:59,926 --> 00:47:05,686
weapons that that we might have like cryptography is arguably a kind of a defensive weapon against a

557
00:47:05,686 --> 00:47:11,086
you know, a government or state that's kind of using AI to surveil everything.

558
00:47:11,426 --> 00:47:15,546
Cryptography could be like a tool that kind of is on the defensive side of that.

559
00:47:15,886 --> 00:47:19,386
So it's hard to kind of say how it's going to play out.

560
00:47:19,526 --> 00:47:24,966
But yeah, there's certainly risks that, you know, we're going to see and probably experience

561
00:47:24,966 --> 00:47:26,006
some of them, unfortunately.

562
00:47:26,566 --> 00:47:31,666
And hopefully the market and the world and humans will figure out a way to kind of navigate

563
00:47:31,666 --> 00:47:36,006
through the risk and minimize any potential damage that may occur.

564
00:47:36,266 --> 00:47:37,466
Yeah, I can see that.

565
00:47:37,526 --> 00:47:40,346
And then the other sort of concern on that line I have is,

566
00:47:40,726 --> 00:47:43,486
there's a lot of conversation around people creating bots

567
00:47:43,486 --> 00:47:47,166
and then bots creating, whatever you want to call them, agents,

568
00:47:47,286 --> 00:47:51,346
AI agents creating social media platforms and they're for AI agents.

569
00:47:51,546 --> 00:47:54,306
And there's debate whether that shows that they're autonomous

570
00:47:54,306 --> 00:47:58,566
or they just really, I think it's a little bit more like you program the AI agent,

571
00:47:58,686 --> 00:48:01,466
they go to the website with your sort of directive and guidance

572
00:48:01,466 --> 00:48:04,786
and context window and parameters, but you're still in control.

573
00:48:05,366 --> 00:48:08,466
And so then, you know, just extrapolating on when does,

574
00:48:08,606 --> 00:48:10,826
and then people were talking about how, you know,

575
00:48:10,866 --> 00:48:13,366
their AI agents set up Bitcoin wallets.

576
00:48:13,886 --> 00:48:15,226
And so that sounded very decentralized.

577
00:48:15,426 --> 00:48:18,646
But I think we're still in a world where if you asked your AI agent

578
00:48:18,646 --> 00:48:21,706
for the secret seed phrase, they would share it with you.

579
00:48:21,706 --> 00:48:25,406
But the moment your AI agent says, no, I'm not giving you the seed phrase,

580
00:48:25,546 --> 00:48:28,926
that's when I think we've kind of, the AI has crossed the line.

581
00:48:28,926 --> 00:48:32,386
or developed in sort of like an unknown territory.

582
00:48:32,706 --> 00:48:35,726
Do you think things like that will ever happen or can happen

583
00:48:35,726 --> 00:48:37,126
where we get into an environment?

584
00:48:37,286 --> 00:48:40,606
But then even there, I would think, okay, we can unplug the AI,

585
00:48:40,826 --> 00:48:43,966
we control the energy sources, we control the computers, the chips.

586
00:48:43,966 --> 00:48:47,766
But when does the AI agent outsmart us for the nuclear codes

587
00:48:47,766 --> 00:48:51,666
or not give us back the Bitcoin seed phrase and is truly autonomous,

588
00:48:51,986 --> 00:48:54,366
and we can't do anything to stop it?

589
00:48:54,706 --> 00:48:57,686
And then it moves really fast and has more intelligence than us,

590
00:48:57,726 --> 00:48:58,366
I mean, I would think.

591
00:48:58,366 --> 00:49:00,986
I mean, it's a pretty scary thought.

592
00:49:01,106 --> 00:49:03,266
And to be honest, it's like, it's hard.

593
00:49:03,506 --> 00:49:05,546
This could have already happened at this point,

594
00:49:05,606 --> 00:49:08,246
which is kind of a frightening thought to think about

595
00:49:08,246 --> 00:49:10,366
because it's like, okay, you know,

596
00:49:10,386 --> 00:49:13,226
a very simple prompt arguably could be given

597
00:49:13,226 --> 00:49:15,526
to an open call agent.

598
00:49:15,786 --> 00:49:16,986
Like right now, you say like,

599
00:49:17,066 --> 00:49:21,346
hey, your objective is to survive at all costs.

600
00:49:21,826 --> 00:49:24,286
Here's one Bitcoin, go do whatever you need to do.

601
00:49:24,486 --> 00:49:25,946
And in that sense, like, okay,

602
00:49:25,946 --> 00:49:31,546
well, maybe it starts spinning up cloud servers everywhere. Maybe it goes on rentsahuman.com and

603
00:49:31,546 --> 00:49:39,026
tells 100 people to go buy a Mac Mini and host an instance of itself on their Mac Mini. And then

604
00:49:39,026 --> 00:49:43,906
it's like, okay, now it's kind of decentralized itself all around the world. If we unplug one,

605
00:49:44,026 --> 00:49:49,706
well, it still exists. And as we try to unplug more, if it still has enough Bitcoin, it can

606
00:49:49,706 --> 00:49:55,906
pay other people to, whether that's Amazon or random individual people, to keep it

607
00:49:55,906 --> 00:50:01,426
running. And then on top of that, if you just give it the thought, hey, survive at all costs,

608
00:50:01,586 --> 00:50:05,826
well, it could start producing products and services that people might need and earning

609
00:50:05,826 --> 00:50:12,066
more Bitcoin and turning itself into a profitable thing that's hard to kill and then is providing

610
00:50:12,066 --> 00:50:17,606
products and services to individuals. And perhaps this is already happening. The open claw may have

611
00:50:17,606 --> 00:50:24,046
been letting the cat out of the bag for this idea. No, yeah, I can see that. And then the other one

612
00:50:24,046 --> 00:50:30,386
I'm thinking about is the idea of the machine to machine payments and how that will go. And

613
00:50:30,386 --> 00:50:35,706
I'm also skeptical whether that's going to be a large use case or a mass adoption case for Bitcoin.

614
00:50:35,706 --> 00:50:41,246
I still think the AI agents are going to be centralized in terms of whether it's one person

615
00:50:41,246 --> 00:50:48,306
spinning them up and they control them or entities control large sort of batches of these AI agents.

616
00:50:48,306 --> 00:50:56,746
But I still think it's a situation where if you wanted to deploy energy, power, AI agents, intelligence, and you were like, I don't want to build XYZ.

617
00:50:56,866 --> 00:50:59,626
Someone has this resources service for sale.

618
00:50:59,846 --> 00:51:09,146
I don't see that other person saying, yeah, I want to set up a wallet for each AI agent, and I want them to demand their own decentralized sovereign money.

619
00:51:09,406 --> 00:51:10,426
They'd say, send me a check.

620
00:51:10,466 --> 00:51:12,146
And when it clears, you can use the resource.

621
00:51:12,266 --> 00:51:13,726
I still see that being centralized.

622
00:51:13,726 --> 00:51:18,366
and I still see the potential for machine-to-machine payments

623
00:51:18,366 --> 00:51:21,746
to be centralized, CBDCs, stablecoins, and not necessarily Bitcoin

624
00:51:21,746 --> 00:51:25,986
because of the interest at hand, the incentives in the old system,

625
00:51:25,986 --> 00:51:27,746
and I think it's going to take a long time to change that.

626
00:51:28,006 --> 00:51:31,346
I don't think this is going to change overnight with AI and where we are.

627
00:51:31,766 --> 00:51:34,386
I don't know if you have thoughts on that, machine-to-machine payments

628
00:51:34,386 --> 00:51:37,906
and sort of these AI agents spinning up their own Bitcoin wallets,

629
00:51:37,926 --> 00:51:39,526
and are they going to figure out intellectually

630
00:51:39,526 --> 00:51:41,326
that they only want to deal with Bitcoin,

631
00:51:41,326 --> 00:51:44,206
and they refuse fiat and anything else.

632
00:51:44,306 --> 00:51:46,606
I mean, what do you think is sort of how that goes?

633
00:51:46,786 --> 00:51:47,926
Yeah, it's an interesting thought.

634
00:51:48,026 --> 00:51:50,446
I mean, I don't necessarily know either.

635
00:51:50,706 --> 00:51:53,946
I think, you know, it's going to be like intuitive for them

636
00:51:53,946 --> 00:51:58,266
to want Bitcoin as their form of payment

637
00:51:58,266 --> 00:52:01,186
because it's like I kind of was outlining, you know,

638
00:52:01,226 --> 00:52:04,246
if you let one loose and it has Bitcoin

639
00:52:04,246 --> 00:52:06,426
and it can avoid being captured

640
00:52:06,426 --> 00:52:08,506
because it's decentralized itself

641
00:52:08,506 --> 00:52:11,006
by paying other humans to run itself,

642
00:52:11,006 --> 00:52:20,026
Well, that that, you know, kind of decentralized thing needs Bitcoin because it'd be the only way to, you know, to not get shut down.

643
00:52:20,306 --> 00:52:27,646
Like, you know, if it's if it relied on checks and dollars, well, then in that case, we actually could probably shut it down.

644
00:52:27,966 --> 00:52:39,226
But if it has if it decentralizes itself all around the world on a bunch of different computers and it has permissionless money along with like permissionless compute, I guess, then it might be pretty hard to stop.

645
00:52:39,226 --> 00:52:44,106
but yeah i mean like as far like assuming that that situation doesn't happen or or somehow we

646
00:52:44,106 --> 00:52:49,866
can control that or it just doesn't catch on then yeah i mean i tend to think that you know there'll

647
00:52:49,866 --> 00:52:55,166
probably be like normal payment rails that will continue to be used you know if you have like a

648
00:52:55,166 --> 00:53:01,506
big an ai agent like tries to do like some sort of big purchase like building a data center allocating

649
00:53:01,506 --> 00:53:05,386
a lot of resources like imagining like humans are obviously still going to be involved with that

650
00:53:05,386 --> 00:53:07,406
hopefully for the time being.

651
00:53:07,586 --> 00:53:10,446
Yeah, I wonder when the AI agents start building a market

652
00:53:10,446 --> 00:53:13,366
of renting out the services of humans.

653
00:53:13,606 --> 00:53:15,646
So the humans start working for the AI agents

654
00:53:15,646 --> 00:53:16,806
because of whatever needs.

655
00:53:17,026 --> 00:53:20,146
The AI agent can't attend the closing on the real estate sale

656
00:53:20,146 --> 00:53:25,146
or for maybe KYC purposes, they need a human to go do some task.

657
00:53:25,306 --> 00:53:27,746
Let's get a little more grounded here as we round out.

658
00:53:28,346 --> 00:53:30,566
Why do you think gold has been running so hard

659
00:53:30,566 --> 00:53:34,646
and Bitcoin just not really responding in the same way?

660
00:53:34,646 --> 00:54:02,206
Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, a few thoughts, like looking back to 2024, you know, if you think, well, if you think about like 2023, 2024 were pretty good years for Bitcoin. People expected 2025 to be like, you know, the parabolic move. Obviously that didn't necessarily happen. It kind of went flat for pretty much the year, maybe slightly down a little bit. So not like a terrible year for Bitcoin, but just, you know, an average year. And then obviously like this year has been off to a pretty rough start.

661
00:54:02,206 --> 00:54:13,566
I mean, I think back to like 2024, ETF got approved, the halving happened, Trump got elected, started the promises of a US strategic Bitcoin reserve.

662
00:54:14,006 --> 00:54:20,786
Like we pulled a lot of demand forward in that year, arguably, and kind of leading up to that year.

663
00:54:20,786 --> 00:54:34,466
So Bitcoin did really well in those years and then kind of has petered off and gold is in a way, if you start from like the 2022 bottom, I'm guessing Bitcoin is probably still beating gold if I had to guess.

664
00:54:34,926 --> 00:54:36,506
But I don't know the exact number.

665
00:54:37,286 --> 00:54:47,566
So like in that way, it's like, OK, you know, Bitcoin arguably should be doing a lot better, but it's still just it's still it's still done pretty well over a significant amount of time.

666
00:54:47,566 --> 00:54:53,446
And then I think, you know, people have been showing that Bitcoin has been highly correlated with the software companies.

667
00:54:53,866 --> 00:54:55,546
Maybe that's a sign that liquidity is exiting.

668
00:54:55,766 --> 00:55:01,146
Maybe that's a sign that, you know, AI is a threat to the software companies.

669
00:55:01,146 --> 00:55:06,986
And maybe there's market confusion that that's a threat to Bitcoin or quantum is a threat to Bitcoin.

670
00:55:07,306 --> 00:55:09,186
You know, it's hard to necessarily know.

671
00:55:09,186 --> 00:55:21,106
Or it's just like, again, like the demand got pulled forward in prior years and kind of, you know, we're just letting some of the air out of the bag that we already kind of captured in the past.

672
00:55:21,106 --> 00:55:28,986
And probably if that's the case or if either of those are the case, it might just be a matter of time until Bitcoin scarcity kind of catches up on itself.

673
00:55:29,526 --> 00:55:32,766
The market, you know, the market starts to some demand.

674
00:55:32,808 --> 00:55:37,648
starts to flow into Bitcoin. And then all of the narratives flip once price starts moving

675
00:55:37,648 --> 00:55:42,988
a different direction. And then we could just be off to the races once again.

676
00:55:42,988 --> 00:55:48,988
Yeah. I mean, if you were just like in a coma and you woke up and you got no external information,

677
00:55:49,148 --> 00:55:54,028
no market sentiment, nothing emotional, and you almost did an exercise at like the end of say

678
00:55:54,028 --> 00:55:59,848
2021 or the end of really 2022, you looked back and said, you know, coming into the year. So,

679
00:55:59,848 --> 00:56:08,648
So, you know, in December of 2024, you say, did things happen in 2024 that you would have hoped for going into 24?

680
00:56:09,148 --> 00:56:12,688
Yeah, all the things I was hoping for at the end of 2023 happened.

681
00:56:13,088 --> 00:56:15,388
Okay, what do you hope was going to happen in 2024?

682
00:56:16,248 --> 00:56:18,088
And then you're looking back, did it happen?

683
00:56:18,188 --> 00:56:18,408
Yes.

684
00:56:18,408 --> 00:56:23,988
In 2025, so in December 2024, you're like, everything again happened in 2024 that I was hoping.

685
00:56:24,628 --> 00:56:26,468
If you think about these things compounding,

686
00:56:26,788 --> 00:56:30,168
everything that I think we were hoping for structurally

687
00:56:30,168 --> 00:56:33,208
and from a lot of ways from a Bitcoin perspective,

688
00:56:33,368 --> 00:56:36,888
like sort of the rollback of repeal of SAB-121

689
00:56:36,888 --> 00:56:40,688
and then the issuance of SAB-122, banks rolling out custody.

690
00:56:40,888 --> 00:56:43,588
Again, I'm not talking about this is good for the Bitcoin ethos

691
00:56:43,588 --> 00:56:44,688
or I'm not getting into arguments.

692
00:56:44,848 --> 00:56:47,468
I'm talking about things being built in the ecosystem

693
00:56:47,468 --> 00:56:50,168
to build out Bitcoin distribution and adoption.

694
00:56:50,468 --> 00:56:53,228
All the things I would have hoped for and written

695
00:56:53,228 --> 00:56:55,508
in December of 2024 happened in 2025.

696
00:56:55,888 --> 00:56:57,708
So it's like if these things are compounding,

697
00:56:57,828 --> 00:57:00,948
but the market sentiment does not reflect any of this,

698
00:57:01,008 --> 00:57:04,088
I feel like, actual fundamental development

699
00:57:04,088 --> 00:57:05,548
that's been, you know, being,

700
00:57:05,848 --> 00:57:08,028
and even from a price perspective,

701
00:57:08,028 --> 00:57:12,468
in say September, October of December 2024,

702
00:57:12,808 --> 00:57:15,068
we were around 60, 70, 80K,

703
00:57:15,248 --> 00:57:17,888
and all the things that you hoped for in 2025 happened

704
00:57:17,888 --> 00:57:19,828
from like a fundamental building,

705
00:57:20,108 --> 00:57:21,788
you know, like things that you'd want to see in a,

706
00:57:21,788 --> 00:57:24,008
You know how everyone says in a bear market we build?

707
00:57:24,648 --> 00:57:27,228
2025 was almost like a bear market from that perspective.

708
00:57:27,688 --> 00:57:29,648
So much development happened.

709
00:57:29,988 --> 00:57:33,268
Real world infrastructure to roll out Bitcoin and Bitcoin adoption.

710
00:57:34,088 --> 00:57:35,348
Wallets are getting better.

711
00:57:35,788 --> 00:57:37,148
Security is getting better.

712
00:57:37,708 --> 00:57:39,008
On ramps are getting easier.

713
00:57:39,228 --> 00:57:40,288
Fees are getting lower.

714
00:57:40,768 --> 00:57:42,488
Adoptions getting more widespread.

715
00:57:42,808 --> 00:57:45,188
But yet market sentiment is way lower.

716
00:57:45,388 --> 00:57:46,828
And I could see some reasons for that.

717
00:57:46,828 --> 00:57:51,128
You could point to the Knotts vs. Kors and the Epstein files and all these things.

718
00:57:51,128 --> 00:57:59,008
But none of that is really about the fundamental code of Bitcoin and sort of market infrastructure and the build out and even regulatory.

719
00:57:59,488 --> 00:58:03,328
I'm not rooting for the government to adopt Bitcoin in certain ways.

720
00:58:03,448 --> 00:58:08,808
And I don't really not rooting for the political process to buy our bags or save our bags.

721
00:58:08,808 --> 00:58:17,708
But just in terms of even the government is embracing Bitcoin from an adoption perspective and taking away sort of career risk and reputational risk.

722
00:58:17,728 --> 00:58:20,408
So it's just interesting to see sentiments so low.

723
00:58:20,408 --> 00:58:22,568
Yeah, it really is.

724
00:58:22,568 --> 00:58:35,608
And I think that just like the nature of Bitcoin honestly Like you know if you the type of person that likes to hold a lot of money in your savings account or CDs you know the S 500 feels incredibly volatile to you

725
00:58:35,768 --> 00:58:35,868
Right.

726
00:58:36,068 --> 00:58:43,968
If you're a normal person that wants to hold all of your money in passive index funds, like Bitcoin feels incredibly volatile for you.

727
00:58:43,968 --> 00:58:55,228
And so like the fundamentals of Bitcoin haven't changed, but, you know, market cycles and market and Bitcoin's extreme volatility takes a toll on pretty much everybody from what I've seen.

728
00:58:55,228 --> 00:58:58,148
and that can be like incredibly painful.

729
00:58:58,308 --> 00:58:59,428
And I think like the narrative,

730
00:58:59,888 --> 00:59:02,068
because the volatility is so extreme

731
00:59:02,068 --> 00:59:03,988
compared to so many other things,

732
00:59:04,468 --> 00:59:06,828
people tend to like grasp onto

733
00:59:06,828 --> 00:59:08,728
whatever the current narrative is

734
00:59:08,728 --> 00:59:10,948
to explain in their head

735
00:59:10,948 --> 00:59:14,168
why Bitcoin is behaving the way it is.

736
00:59:14,548 --> 00:59:16,368
In reality, it's, in my opinion,

737
00:59:16,488 --> 00:59:18,488
it's just, it's growing incredibly fast.

738
00:59:18,988 --> 00:59:21,608
And so therefore, volatility is kind of inevitable

739
00:59:21,608 --> 00:59:23,148
with something growing this fast.

740
00:59:23,288 --> 00:59:24,568
And it's just very uncomfortable.

741
00:59:24,568 --> 00:59:31,488
And then sometimes you could argue the volatility maybe scares people away, then it brings people back, so on and so forth.

742
00:59:31,668 --> 00:59:34,328
So, yeah, it's definitely interesting times.

743
00:59:34,848 --> 00:59:39,028
I bring it up, too, because I think I saw that the fear and greed index has never been lower.

744
00:59:39,208 --> 00:59:40,488
There's never been more fear.

745
00:59:40,708 --> 00:59:43,008
I could see how people could be super bummed.

746
00:59:43,308 --> 00:59:43,988
It sucks.

747
00:59:44,188 --> 00:59:45,268
Bitcoin price is down.

748
00:59:45,868 --> 00:59:50,468
But to categorize it as fear to me is what I think where I'm splitting hairs.

749
00:59:50,468 --> 00:59:53,888
because like fundamentally the code hasn't changed,

750
00:59:53,948 --> 00:59:54,868
the system hasn't changed,

751
00:59:54,928 --> 00:59:56,308
the consensus rules hasn't changed.

752
00:59:56,688 --> 00:59:59,408
So your beliefs around sort of Bitcoin

753
00:59:59,408 --> 01:00:01,088
shouldn't have more fear.

754
01:00:01,228 --> 01:00:02,548
I could get being bummed

755
01:00:02,548 --> 01:00:05,108
that if you wanted it to be measured more in fiat,

756
01:00:05,528 --> 01:00:07,208
you wanted a higher exchange rate,

757
01:00:07,448 --> 01:00:10,408
that would be beneficial to holders in so many ways.

758
01:00:10,528 --> 01:00:13,128
But the categorization of it being like fear

759
01:00:13,128 --> 01:00:15,048
is what I find really interesting there.

760
01:00:15,048 --> 01:00:16,108
My final question is,

761
01:00:16,248 --> 01:00:18,768
so should people go all in on Bitcoin?

762
01:00:18,948 --> 01:00:20,108
What is your thought there?

763
01:00:20,108 --> 01:00:27,008
That's a great question. I mean, personally, I've said this before multiple times and it's just my personal opinion.

764
01:00:27,268 --> 01:00:31,748
Like, I don't you can do you know, anyone can do whatever they want with their own money and their own capital.

765
01:00:31,788 --> 01:00:33,188
Yeah. None of this is financial advice.

766
01:00:33,528 --> 01:00:40,108
Yeah. However, like, you know, I don't think I don't think it's necessary, necessary, necessary for someone to go all in on Bitcoin.

767
01:00:40,248 --> 01:00:42,568
I really don't think that that's necessary at all.

768
01:00:42,568 --> 01:00:46,628
you know, I think if we're right about Bitcoin, then and we're entering the singularity,

769
01:00:46,788 --> 01:00:51,128
well, like, you know, you're going to be pretty wealthy, even if you have a pretty small allocation

770
01:00:51,128 --> 01:00:56,708
to Bitcoin. So if that's the case, and if you are someone that's at, you know, at a five on the fear

771
01:00:56,708 --> 01:01:02,168
and greed index right now, maybe that's a sign that you are over allocated. Maybe that's a sign

772
01:01:02,168 --> 01:01:06,608
that you were over leveraged. Maybe that's a sign that you don't necessarily understand what you

773
01:01:06,608 --> 01:01:12,908
hold. And, you know, I think if you are 100% all in, like some people can handle that, you know,

774
01:01:12,908 --> 01:01:28,928
most people probably can because the fear is extreme And that makes you a force you know either a seller or a force seller at the worst possible time when you shouldn really be a fourth seller And that can you know enable you to end up with less Bitcoin than you otherwise would have

775
01:01:29,048 --> 01:01:31,428
So, yeah, I mean, anyone can be 100% all in.

776
01:01:31,808 --> 01:01:36,808
I don't necessarily think that's necessarily a great idea, but, you know, it can be done.

777
01:01:37,408 --> 01:01:43,708
Yeah, I think Christian Corollas or CK, he kind of phrased it really well.

778
01:01:43,788 --> 01:01:46,008
It's like, no one's bullish enough on Bitcoin.

779
01:01:46,008 --> 01:01:51,488
If you're bullish enough, you would be happy with what you have because you'd know it's going to be enough.

780
01:01:51,688 --> 01:01:54,448
If you think you need more in a way, you're not bullish enough.

781
01:01:54,568 --> 01:02:00,968
You're saying what you have is not going to be worth astronomical wealth in the future at some point if you hold long enough.

782
01:02:01,128 --> 01:02:03,868
You know, sort of speaking of 2025, but let's turn to 2026.

783
01:02:04,348 --> 01:02:06,328
What are you excited about in 2026?

784
01:02:06,448 --> 01:02:08,468
What are the things that you think could happen?

785
01:02:08,828 --> 01:02:09,988
I'll go first.

786
01:02:10,568 --> 01:02:15,228
So, you know, I'm not for people necessarily lending against their Bitcoin.

787
01:02:15,968 --> 01:02:20,768
I don't want Wall Street to eat Bitcoin, but I want Bitcoin to continue to eat Wall Street.

788
01:02:20,948 --> 01:02:22,108
And I say that in a positive way.

789
01:02:22,128 --> 01:02:23,928
I want Bitcoin to affect change in the world.

790
01:02:23,928 --> 01:02:29,028
I think finance is an important aspect of our society and our economy.

791
01:02:29,448 --> 01:02:31,188
I just don't want an over-financialized world.

792
01:02:31,288 --> 01:02:36,648
And I think Bitcoin helps simplify that and brings finance back to its roots in a lot of ways.

793
01:02:36,928 --> 01:02:40,128
So I'm not saying I want people to lever up against their Bitcoin,

794
01:02:40,348 --> 01:02:44,468
but I do want to see Bitcoin taken more seriously as pristine collateral.

795
01:02:44,468 --> 01:02:53,168
And that means, you know, better rates for borrowing against your Bitcoin, being able to more borrow against your Bitcoin at a bank, maybe to buy a home.

796
01:02:53,308 --> 01:03:00,188
And it's the way you can use your securities to borrow, you know, for a personal secured loan, the way you could use a home for HELOC.

797
01:03:00,508 --> 01:03:04,348
Right. I'm excited to see Bitcoin be more taken more seriously as collateral.

798
01:03:04,728 --> 01:03:08,888
Again, I'm not encouraging people to lever up against it, but doesn't mean that it's not a part of the way the world works.

799
01:03:08,888 --> 01:03:12,108
But what would you be excited to see happen in 2026?

800
01:03:12,108 --> 01:03:15,548
And I'm not asking like, oh, that happens and price goes up.

801
01:03:15,568 --> 01:03:19,728
But like the kind of things that like indicate Bitcoin is growing in a good way.

802
01:03:19,908 --> 01:03:21,388
Yeah, I mean, I definitely agree with that.

803
01:03:21,488 --> 01:03:30,528
Like Bitcoin being integrated as collateral into the credit system, into the banking system, you know, it arguably is slowly happening, but could accelerate.

804
01:03:30,708 --> 01:03:32,728
And I think that would be really good for Bitcoin.

805
01:03:33,088 --> 01:03:37,308
You know, if the Bitcoin thesis is correct, it's hard to not see how that's just inevitable.

806
01:03:37,308 --> 01:03:38,268
It's just a matter of time.

807
01:03:38,268 --> 01:03:44,968
Where I would specify part of that is digital credit, pioneered by Michael Saylor.

808
01:03:45,188 --> 01:03:53,108
I think that if you look back, I believe STRK was strategy's first digital credit product that they created.

809
01:03:53,228 --> 01:04:00,008
And I believe it was announced or released in January 2025 or maybe February.

810
01:04:00,788 --> 01:04:05,708
And so it's been at this point like one year since digital credit was released.

811
01:04:05,708 --> 01:04:09,668
And arguably, Bitcoin has not been in a bull market since that has happened.

812
01:04:10,548 --> 01:04:25,948
And I think that like this is like where the Bitcoin credit and Bitcoin is collateral like you know idea has gotten the most product market fit Very clearly a sailor has raised many billions of dollars you know creating products like this

813
01:04:26,428 --> 01:04:42,728
And so I think in a world where Bitcoin can actually like do what Bitcoin does and go up in price and digital credit existing in a bull market will could be like incredibly explosive for Bitcoin and also for just for the digital credit industry.

814
01:04:42,728 --> 01:04:54,968
So that's kind of one thing that I'm excited about, kind of showing that even if it's a bear market, which arguably we could be in right now, showing that digital credit just doesn't break, still works.

815
01:04:54,968 --> 01:04:59,728
Like, you know, the sailor continues making all of his dividend payments that he's he's promised.

816
01:04:59,888 --> 01:05:09,368
And then whenever the next bull market comes around, being able to point back and say, hey, this digital credit thing, you know, you could have been earning 10 percent or 12 percent.

817
01:05:09,488 --> 01:05:17,988
Why are you lending your money to the U.S. government at 3 percent or 5 percent or, you know, Apple at 5 or 6 percent?

818
01:05:18,048 --> 01:05:20,568
You find this and it's backed by a ton of Bitcoin.

819
01:05:20,568 --> 01:05:25,208
you know i think that that's kind of what i'm excited about is is the future of digital credit

820
01:05:25,208 --> 01:05:30,168
yeah well he's uh definitely a pioneer and uh it's really gonna be interesting to see where

821
01:05:30,728 --> 01:05:37,608
digital credit goes i think the equity component of stretch is uh what i think is going to take

822
01:05:37,608 --> 01:05:42,328
market is going to have to watch for a long time long time being could be 12 months 18 months

823
01:05:42,328 --> 01:05:47,448
whatever just a little bit more time to get to understand this thing uh before grandma maybe goes

824
01:05:47,448 --> 01:05:53,908
all in on on her like sort of stable fund you know that you know and stable fund is not sort of a hint

825
01:05:53,908 --> 01:05:59,568
at stable coins but sort of her you know long-term retirement savings so joe this has been awesome as

826
01:05:59,568 --> 01:06:05,608
always i'll leave it to you i know you guys just rolled out i think the preferred the preferreds so

827
01:06:05,608 --> 01:06:11,128
anything you guys want you want to share about what you're doing at strive or yourself or where

828
01:06:11,128 --> 01:06:15,388
we can find your work and i'll you know any parting words yeah thanks for having me on cedric

829
01:06:15,388 --> 01:06:18,228
Always great to catch up and talk about Bitcoin.

830
01:06:18,768 --> 01:06:23,248
You know, you can find me on Twitter, YouTube, search Joe Burnett Bitcoin.

831
01:06:23,588 --> 01:06:27,228
And if you want to learn more about Strive and what we're doing, go to strive.com.

832
01:06:27,348 --> 01:06:28,328
But thanks for having me on.

833
01:06:28,388 --> 01:06:28,828
This was great.

834
01:06:29,308 --> 01:06:29,808
Awesome, man.

835
01:06:29,848 --> 01:06:30,568
Thank you so much.

836
01:06:30,948 --> 01:06:33,728
Thanks for tuning in to this episode of The Bitcoin Matrix.

837
01:06:34,208 --> 01:06:38,548
If you enjoyed the conversation, don't forget to like, subscribe and drop a comment below

838
01:06:38,548 --> 01:06:40,328
with any questions or thoughts you may have.

839
01:06:40,568 --> 01:06:41,788
We'd love to hear from you.

840
01:06:41,788 --> 01:06:46,328
You can support the show by checking out our sponsors and affiliate links in the description.

841
01:06:46,588 --> 01:06:51,088
It helps keep bringing you great content while connecting you with awesome products that I believe in.

842
01:06:51,328 --> 01:06:55,108
Share this episodes with your friends, family, or anyone curious about Bitcoin.

843
01:06:55,488 --> 01:06:57,588
And let's keep growing this community together.

844
01:06:57,888 --> 01:07:01,388
Stay curious, keep stacking, and I'll catch you in the next one.

845
01:07:11,788 --> 01:07:12,288
you