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Today's episode is about building something that lasts, not just for years, but for decades.
I sit down with Bo Turner, co-founder and CEO of Abundant Minds.
And what starts out as a conversation about mining quickly becomes something bigger,
a deep exploration of what it means to convert energy into sovereignty.
Bo's path here wasn't easy.
From building a successful real estate business to catastrophic losses and sketchy mining
operations.
But now he's on the other side, helping everyday investors participate in something that was once reserved only for industrial giants.
We're talking about the death of the four-year cycle, why miners are the most bullish people in Bitcoin, why proof of work is the only game that matters, and why right now, in 2026, despite every positive signal you can imagine, Bitcoin remains one of the most mispriced assets on Earth.
This isn't just about hash rate and electricity costs.
It's about conviction.
It's about understanding that while everyone else is chasing narratives,
there are people quietly building the physical backbone of a monetary revolution.
If you've ever wondered what it takes to truly commit to Bitcoin,
this conversation will show you.
And now, let's enter the Bitcoin matrix with Bo Turner.
What is real?
How do you define freedom?
You can't jump into cash.
Cash is trash.
What do you do? You get out.
Bo, welcome to the Bitcoin Matrix. How are you?
Thanks for having me, Cedric. I am super excited for this.
And you have my favorite show title that I've ever seen before.
Oh, well, that's really cool.
And, you know, it's probably my second take trying to introduce you.
And I stumbled on your name because it actually it's like my son's nickname, Bo.
So it's sort of the short version of his name, Boaz.
But and so I just I have an affinity there.
I'm really excited to get into it.
I think we're going to see each other in person probably before this comes out at Bitcoin Day Naples.
So we'll probably find people hear this.
We've already had a good time and met there.
So but I want to hear about your background.
My wife's in real estate.
What is your background like in real estate?
What were you up to there?
Well, my family, I'm lucky to have grown up in a family that taught investing education pretty early on. And so one of the great gifts that I had growing up was one to learn about sound money through gold and other precious metals, which was a really helpful kind of pre wiring to be wired to understand or at least be willing to look at Bitcoin in the first years that I was exposed to it.
The second vehicle that was probably most beneficial and most present in my young life
was real estate.
And so as soon as I turned 18, I was working on deals.
I would do driving for dollars, go out and look for distressed properties, look at assigning
contracts, and really had it out as a goal of mine to build a cash-flowing real estate
portfolio more so than any other reason just because I wanted to be able to not have to
work at some point.
And ideally, you know, as early as possible.
So I have as much optionality as possible.
So when I was living in Texas, I went to undergrad in Texas.
I focused on real estate, building a real estate company, mostly around single family
and light commercial.
So doing a lot of marketing for properties, closing on the ones that I thought were the
best deals, and then assigning the ones to other investors for a profit, any that I didn't
either want to close on or have the ability to close on.
since I was still a relatively young guy, didn't have infinite money to close on deals.
But that was a lot of the framing and the background for me learning about Bitcoin.
It was while I was really full time in the real estate space,
just coming out of engineering for my undergrad.
Wow.
I want to break down maybe or hear more about your upbringing
and how your family got across that investing was important and what that means
and got you ready to get going at 18.
What was sort of, can you expand or elaborate on that?
I'm not sure that this is the path
for most young adults or teens,
but I always had a fascination with money and investments
because I saw it as a way to create
without it being directly by your own effort.
So sort of a multiplication of your own effort
or intelligence.
And so I had a natural draw to it.
And I'm just lucky that my parents
had an investing mindset and my grandparents as well. And I think most of it came from,
and this is not necessarily good programming, but the sense that there's never quite enough.
And I think that's really born in sort of depression era experiences that my grandparents
had that naturally were passed on to my parents. And there's this through line of you've always got
to understand what you own and be very certain that it's not going to get inflated away, that
it's not going to get taken from you. You know, they're very familiar growing up with the executive
order that seized all of the gold. And so the whole mindset around accumulating sound money,
accumulating hard assets was something that was just drilled into me kind of without my knowing
and shaped a lot of how I looked at investing, especially as I got to investing age and had sort
of my own funds to think about. Sure. I'm sort of reflecting on my own upbringing and I'm thinking
about maybe some similar or parallel points, but what did you, I mean, were you also investing in
stocks? And the reason I asked that, I think a lot of people with your mindset or that mindset
choose one or the other stocks or real estate. Real estate tends to come with more leverage,
but also more sweat equity, more physical labor or work, maybe more opportunity to multiply.
So what was your thinking there? And what about college? Was college in the mix or did you skip
that? My undergrad was engineering, so I didn't spend a whole lot of time in the financial world
when I was in college, apart from just thinking about it for myself. It's funny that you say that
because I did have a tendency toward thinking about stocks and equities specifically, especially
during high school. That was kind of my preferred. I saw that as having more opportunity. But then
as time went on, I know that you can get a dividend stock portfolio that pays you income.
But really what drew me into real estate was this idea that I could build a portfolio of diverse
assets that would cash flow far into the future. And those cash flows, as long as I picked my
markets right, had the potential to grow as well. And this was before I had a sense of what the
actual hurdle rate was and something that we as Bitcoiners get more accustomed to is really it's
the expansion of the monetary supply. But for me at the time, I thought, OK, I can get a portfolio
of cash flowing assets that grows, sustains its own growth at some point, kind of has a snowball
effect. And if I manage it well, you know, install the right systems and the right team, it doesn't
necessarily take any time for me. And so that was that was the appeal for me. I thought stocks were
were a great way if I had a unique edge, but I never found that I had that much more of an edge
over anybody else when it came to research in public markets. Whereas in the real estate space,
you know, you, as long as you put in sweat equity and do your own marketing, it's, it's very possible
to find unique deals that other people aren't exposed to just by your own effort. Wow. And so
you're juggling college, you're building your real estate portfolio. When and how did you fall down
the Bitcoin rabbit hole? So it was early on in school. And I wish I could say that I got it
upon first exposure and that I just went all in. But the reality was, oh, that looks interesting.
You know, that looks like something that might have a chance of being successful.
Definitely under $1,000 Bitcoin at this point. It was around 2015. And I would have loved to get
more, but I'm unashamed to say that at the time I thought Ethereum was a far more interesting
thing to study and unpack. I thought, okay, cool. There's this digital gold thing, but
what is this world computer? This seems like a bigger idea. Happily, I was able to reverse that
mindset and unlearn that thinking right around when Ethereum did the shift from proof of work
to proof of stake. That was a big turning point for me in terms of getting out of the diversification
mindset and realizing that, as Saylor would say, you don't sell your winners to buy your losers.
Yeah, no, that's really interesting. Around that conversation, I mean, how'd you kind of sort
through proof of work versus proof of stake? It really started from the perspective of how does
this shift impact the miners? I mean, that was I was not a miner at this point. I had I had dabbled
in mining. I had one small experience in 2016 and then just kind of forgot about it for several
years. But when that shift was taking place, I couldn't help but think, what about all those
people that put hundreds of thousands, if not millions or potentially hundreds of millions
into computing equipment for a particular purpose. And then some person or group of people decides,
I'm just going to change it up real quick. Like we're going to, we're going to phase that out.
That, that seemed to me like it was, if nothing else, it was just like a splinter in my mind.
Like how, how could someone or some group of people do this to economic actors who are supporting
their project? And, you know, that line of questioning led me down. Well, you know,
why did this happen? Why could this happen? And why can't it happen for Bitcoin? Why couldn't
something similar happen for Bitcoin? And that really was the beginning of unpacking why is
proof of work important? Why is it important that it is a proof of work network and not something
else? And, you know, to make a long story short, I think that whole unpacking of what proof of work
means had not just an impact on what I chose to allocate to in the Bitcoin space, but also a whole
mindset shift of what is valuable in the world. How do we show up as people in a way that supports
the most human flourishing? And I mentioned earlier, investing to me seemed like a way to
create results while still being lazy Well getting deeper into proof of work helped me realize that it not even necessarily the most satisfying way of showing up in the world is to just be lazy and get results And I credit early studies of mining and getting more into the mining side of the network as really helping me reframe my whole mindset about how I approach work and creation and living a life of value
And I know many people have this personal sense of transformation, the longer that they spend in the Bitcoin space, the more that they study it. And I'll just be an extra data point that I feel I made a complete personal transformation the more that I studied this network, put my energy into it, and recognize that it really was just showing up as this great mirror for how to live a life, how to cooperate with other people, how to set up systems.
rules and incentives that that inspire the best forms of action from all of us.
And that journey is still, you know, mid stride.
I'm just I'm just happy to still be on it.
But the results so far a few years in to really diving deep, you know, being a Bitcoiner for
10 years, but truly, truly studying for the last five or six.
It's hard to quantify how profound the shift in mindset has been over that time.
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And I guess as part of that mindset shift, did you want to just milk your real estate cash flows
to acquire Spot Bitcoin and put it in self-custody? Or did you,
when did you get involved in mining and what was that like?
So I would like to say that it was all a logical, direct path in that vein where I just thought,
okay, I have these assets and I'm going to take some of the energy that they're throwing off and
put that into the network through buying spot. What really happened was I started to lose passion
for real estate in general and definitely could have just maintained what we had and kept it.
But the decision between my wife and I, we were also moving at the time. So we're open to changing
our lives in multiple different ways. At that time, we decided to start liquidating property
to start buying more Bitcoin. And it started out just from a place of being kind of tired and
uninspired by real estate and having this thing that we believed in more. And around that time,
during that time period, I was also, as I mentioned, drawn into mining by these questions
and the sort of comparison between Bitcoin and other networks. And I had a data center background
in engineering undergrad. So I had enough coursework to be dangerous and to see mining as an
opportunity that, okay, if I can do this more efficiently than other people, then I actually
end up with more Bitcoin than if I'm just buying spot. This is my more efficient conversion
mechanism to take any sort of economic energy and turn it into Bitcoin. And so originally,
we got started just by purchasing machines and sending them to a host and at the time that was
a half million dollars from proceeds of some of these houses that were liquidating and it all was
lost over the course of that that next 12 months so we got in business with the wrong host so many
different things went wrong and it's hard to unpack all of them but suffice it to say it was
the worst business or investing experience that either of us had ever had. And at the time,
I mean, really for anyone, that's a huge amount of money to lose in any one go. And so we weren't
ruined by it. It didn't completely break us, but definitely put a damper on wedding planning since
we had just gotten engaged. And we took what was left of our real estate portfolio, kind of
assessed what options we had at that point, and realized that we still had enough to build a
facility of our own and actually just set this up under our own care and control where we are in
Oregon. And so we worked on building that facility that took about a year. And as we neared completion,
realized there's a lot of other people like us who saw this opportunity, saw this vehicle that
they can get into in the Bitcoin space and either have been burned or scared to be burned. They just
want somewhere that they can feel safe. So we resonated with this point of view a lot and wanted
to help this kind of person. And so that was really the birth of Abundant Minds as it is today,
where we help people mine Bitcoin in this safe, all-inclusive environment in Oregon, in a great
climate with all sorts of educational resources. But in the beginning, it was really just out of
solving our own problem, solving our own pain that we experienced in the industry and building
something that we felt would be an improvement on what most people's experience in the industry
had been. Because from what we could tell, there was no real issue with mining as a business model
or mining as an investment. It had everything to do with who people chose to work with and the
operational integrity of the companies that were out there. And there are good ones, don't get me
wrong. It's not like it's a sea of horrible actors, but there are enough bad stories, enough
scams and too few really good, reputable operators that we felt like we could offer something unique.
Wow. I mean, talk about a story there where you transform your business from real estate to
allocate into Bitcoin. You go further into allocating into mining Bitcoin. You go through
a horrible scam like that, but you still have faith and determination to carry through the
original idea and improve upon it. Let's talk about maybe then the benefits of mining Bitcoin.
How does it compare to real estate, but maybe have some advantages, maybe around the cash flow
and taxes? I love describing mining to real estate investors because they are pretty analogous. I
mean, it's about as close as you can get to the real estate model in the Bitcoin space.
And it's because you have this physical asset, the miner, that's throwing off cash flows,
which would be your rents, except your rents are denominated in Bitcoin.
And just like real estate investors often have a sort of shortcut to creating and preserving
wealth through the different tax advantages available through depreciation, you get the
same benefit in mining, except it's accelerated.
So in 2025, we got the big, beautiful bill passed in the US, which brought back 100%
bonus depreciation on qualifying equipment, which mining servers are qualifying equipment
when they're operated in a business. And so you've got this vehicle that real estate investors can
get behind, one, because it has many of the same characteristics and benefits, but also because
it's a physical thing. And one of my great joys in this is I love talking to Bitcoiners. I live
around Bitcoiners all day, every day. But to me, the mission, the potential for impact that we can
have that's unique, especially through a business like mining, is actually we can be a bridge for
people who've not yet fallen all the way down the rabbit hole, not yet taken the orange pill,
and give it to them in a vehicle that resonates with what they're already looking for and already
looking at for investment opportunities. I find that the most challenging thing for people
especially of an older demographic when they're trying to wrap their head around bitcoin
is the non-physical nature and you cannot argue that bitcoin is totally non-physical if you've
come to a mining site visit and laid your hands on a miner and seen a facility it becomes a very
very real thing to you and you see what is going into securing this network versus if i just hear
about bitcoin on on some forum or you know from a friend i have nothing to lay my hands on and so
So one of my great joys is people that come from a real estate investing background, physical
commodities investing background, the chance to see mining is their connection to understanding
this network, not just as a non-physical intangible asset, but truly as a physical system that
interacts with the world and has physical implications on how we all live our lives.
Sure.
Yeah, my experiences with mining are not as deep as yours,
but I've gotten to go to some mining facilities.
I have exposure to a mining sort of farm
that I have a small percentage of, like 5% of that.
And it changes and transforms how you think about the network
when you have skin in the game from a very different angle.
But one thing, maybe you could help me,
how do you think through, let's think about,
not so much reallocation from, say, real estate or instead of real estate, but I want to buy a
certain amount of Bitcoin, but instead I want to try mining. So whatever number that is, 10,000,
1,000, let's pick a number that's really easy, though. And what does that look like over a
certain period of time? And not so much from a price appreciation standpoint, or just maybe price
is steady in this example, but how do you get back to 100% even? If you put in 100 grand,
is it going to take five years at X dollars if the price stayed the same? Or is it 20 years?
And what does that look like? And what are some of the advantages of doing it that way versus
just putting it right into Bitcoin? Yeah, that's a great question. So I touched on the two main
things that people are typically interested in, which are the tax advantages and then the ability
to get Bitcoin denominated cash flow. But the other reason people look at mining and the reason
that I originally started looking at mining was, okay, if I do this well, I can actually make more
Bitcoin with the same capital investment as long as I've got a long enough time horizon. So the way
that that typically works out, let's say you're spending a hundred grand on either mining
infrastructure or spending a hundred grand on spot. For the first couple of years, like one to
two years and i'm i'm going to use generalities because this shifts all the time so and then this
is financial advice not financial advice and not a real-time model but just the back of the
napkin math yeah back of the napkin mental framework the first couple of years that you
were mining you were essentially catching up to what you would have bought if you just bought spot
right around year two or three is typically where you hit that point where same capital invested,
you've got about the same amount of Bitcoin that if you were just going to buy spot,
if you had been mining for those three years. So assuming that a machine lasts longer than three
years, you've got years, call it three through five or three through six or seven, where as long
as you are mining efficiently, you've got your energy procured properly. The machine is on,
It's actually got good uptime. It's well-maintained. You're not blowing a bunch of costs into just
keeping it alive. Those years are your outperformance years where depending on what
your situation looks like, you might outperform Bitcoin by 10%, by 30%, by 50%. This all gets
into individual scenarios. But just for rough estimates, as long as you've got a longer than
three year time horizon mining if done well can outperform just buying an holding spot And that is part of the reason that if you were living on a Bitcoin standard if Bitcoin is your hurdle rate you would think about mining is do it well and you get more Bitcoin for the same amount of effort
Sure. And then so one of the things I find very exciting about mining, I think, you know,
you start pontificating and thinking about the different opportunities to as maybe the
whether you're providing the hosting services or building the facility and figuring out ways to optimize,
make it more efficient, acquire cheaper energy.
But what are some of the issues you ran into as someone who was trying to use hosting services?
And what are some of the ways you've gotten?
How is the experience different from some of the BS you dealt with in the past?
And what's it like to be sort of hosted versus going out?
I don't have to build it myself, but like, what is it like being sort of going through a hosting
program? Well, in the ideal world, a hosting program is taking care of nearly everything for
you operationally. And what I've seen go most wrong for people is over optimizing for one aspect
of the relationship at the expense of everything else. For example, everybody knows that you've got
to get reasonably priced energy in order for mining to make sense, you can over optimize for
energy and give up geopolitical stability. You can give up good climate. You can give up machine
lifespan. You can give up uptime all in pursuit of this, you know, holy grail of cheap energy.
And I don't want to discount the fact that energy is super important when you're setting up a
successful mining operation, but it is not the end all be all. For example, set up in Russia,
and you've got some of the cheapest energy in the world, you have a pretty good chance of having your
equipment seized and never seeing it again. Copy and paste that in quite a few unstable jurisdictions
that people have had experience with prior. Or, you know, I throw no shade on our friends in Texas,
they house about 30% of the network. But Texas, you can get relatively cheap energy, but the
climate's much harsher. The curtailment is much more often. I mean, you're pretty happy if you get
90% uptime or more versus in the Northwest, it's really easy to stay pretty close to 100% uptime
because we have no curtailment like that. We don't have very hot days. We've got a very cool climate.
So there's always trade-offs. And this is part of where an engineering background,
kind of systems optimization background comes in, is there's no right answer. There's only trade-offs
no matter what you're setting up. And so especially when you're first looking at mining,
let's say that you're a brand new entrant to the space and you're just exploring it.
The biggest mistake that I see people make is they make decisions based solely on their
spreadsheets and they have no sense of what operational reality happens behind those
spreadsheets. And that is where I got burned. That is where my worst decisions were made.
that is where I can I could name every really major mistake as part of me not considering the
operational reality that was behind the numbers that I was running when I was first looking at
the investment. What is it like in Oregon? Why did you choose Oregon for the operation and the
facilities and physical infrastructure? And what is the reaction been like? Or how's it been with
the community? So far, we've only had really positive reception. And I think a lot of that
is just due to us hiring locally and being involved in the communities that we set up.
I mentioned it a little bit, but the climate is a huge piece of why Oregon is great for miners.
There's also no sales tax, which is pretty material if you're spending $5,000, $10,000 on a unit.
If you can save almost a grand just because you're in the right jurisdiction, that helps.
The climate means that machines are up for, they have better uptime throughout the year.
They are less stressed during the summer or winter months because we don't have excessive cold.
It's not like well below zero most of the winter.
And so they go through fewer thermal cycles, which usually means that you're adding years onto the back end of a miner's lifespan.
Couple that with hydropower, highly renewables-based grid, really stable power that's got limited to no curtailment, depending on which utility you're talking about.
And you have a recipe for, especially for the early years of a miner, where it's much more important how often it's up and how much total Bitcoin it produces than just your raw input costs.
And you've got a really great place to mine.
And when it goes well, as I mentioned, over the course of time, you've got this opportunity to outperform the underlying asset, which we're educating people about Bitcoin all the time.
And I mentioned that most of our clients are coming in with little or no previous experience. So we're often helping people set up their first wallets, think through custody, think through security, all of these things.
And so when I think of a 10 out of 10 experience for people, if they can get the most efficient access to Bitcoin with the fewest headaches, the fewest operational roadblocks and issues in the lowest risk jurisdiction and environment possible, while also getting to learn and go on the Bitcoin journey, that to me is a very successful outcome.
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yeah there's all different sorts of ways to look at how you can use bitcoin in your financial life
i think you know sort of certain allocation of your your income or your savings is actually you
know using bitcoin as savings you can invest in bitcoin you could speculate on it bitcoin is uh
mining and is like almost a way of like you know sort of pre-paying or dcaing and uh you reach
that point, though, around year two or three, where you get, let's say that 100% quasi free
Bitcoin. But if you also can look at it a different way, sort of like your rent roll,
where in year one, or year two, let's say you're making $100 a month, you can almost think about
sort of your, you know, your capital allocation, but you know, your down payment, but you make $100
a month. And I know it's not a direct relationship where price goes up 4x and your roll goes up 4x
because you have hash rate and different sort of elements here in the model.
But let's say if your amount goes up for extra hundred a month becomes 400 a month one day.
And again, this is paid out in Bitcoin.
So you never have to even exchange it to dollars, but just thinking in dollar terms.
And then you start getting to that point where that 400 a month becomes a thousand a month.
It's like it's almost like Social Security or building your own retirement plan.
And to your point, I mean, it has a lifespan of, say, five, six, seven years.
But the way you build and the way you get involved, you can add to that over time and you can sort of maintain that in different ways.
But it's a different way to create sort of this forward income stream, if you think about that way, or sort of sats flow instead of cash flow.
So, you know, really cool there.
Are you involved in the community at all in terms of like education?
I think you were mentioning you're educating.
and you know i think there's a you're growing food yeah we've got quite a few different ways
every community is a little bit different in terms of what makes the most sense and what's
actually the most beneficial so uh probably the the most fun project would be the greenhouse
project where we're actually taking the waste heat from miners to heat a greenhouse through the winter
grow food, donate that food to the local food bank, increase food security, give people access
to fresh produce and nutrition. And that's not something that we do for profit. That's just a
fun community give back and kind of a special project. But everywhere we set up, we try to have
some kind of unique give back. And part of that is just because we want to be good stewards and
good community members, but also the previous iterations of Bitcoin cycles where miners have
come in, taken up all the substation capacity, and then in very quick fashion, either gone out of
business or left, in many cases left with utilities holding the bag for their power bills,
has not left the best taste in the mouths of many community leaders and utilities. And so in a sense,
we're doing this because we want to build good relationships, but also just to help heal the
image of the industry to some degree. So, and also just expand access to education,
the ability for people to understand this network, not just think of us as these sort of energy
pirates roving around and going from community to community to set up a mining site, but really
coming for the holistic good of that community. So, you know, local employment, making sure that
we're employing local trades and actually bringing jobs to the area is important. Running educational
programs where we can contribute to scholarships locally for people in some of these communities,
especially rural communities, where they might be looking at going into the trades,
do internships as well at these sites where they can learn the basics of data center operations,
some of the core elements of financial literacy, of understanding energy. I see this space
outside of the ability to just impact communities at the physical level, at the resource level,
with being a great vehicle for teaching, not just about Bitcoin, but about all of the systems that
Bitcoin sort of reinvents and holds up a mirror to. Whether we're talking about energy or computing
or the financial system, you've got a great vehicle in Bitcoin mining to help people unpack
some core beliefs and fundamental forces that make up these mega trends that continue to shape
and reshape our world. And arguably today, even faster than ever, all three of those things are
morphing at a pace that if you don't have somebody teaching you about it or some way to access
information about it, I think many people will wake up very confused in the next few years,
the next few decades, if they don't have some fundamental learning around those three areas.
Yeah, I mean, it seems like a really fun, cool way to be an independent business owner, to give back to the community in ways that I think are very beneficial and to be a member, a good member.
I wish all businesses would take this sort of purview or approach.
It seems like the businesses that do are more the, you know, the conglomerates.
And it's a little bit more maybe like opportunities for propaganda or sort of like just reputation watching.
washing. But in terms of the multiple locations, is that because each location has sort of natural
limitations or is each location sort of like limitless and there's just different reasons
to have multiple locations? It's primarily for diversification. There's also certain capacity
constraints depending on where you're setting up. So we have a kind of unique situation in the
Northwest, where there's a lot of infrastructure that's been left behind from other industries over
the course of the years, usually something to do with the lumber industry. And so we, in many cases,
have been able to go into these spots and find some kind of underutilized infrastructure that's
just asking to have somebody come in and make better use of it. So that's the primary is,
is there something there that's not being used to full capacity that by us coming in,
in many cases to communities where they don't have many jobs at all or much economic activity
going on at all, and actually provide some sort of benefit. Let's look for the places where
they want us, where we can be helpful, where there is a reason that us being there will help
them achieve something. I think about our first site, the first city that we set up in,
And we went and utilized what was left on their substation in terms of capacity. And actually, as a result of that, they qualified for grants to get additional capacity and build new capacity for an industrial park that's been sitting vacant for decades now and has essentially just been an underutilized asset because they had spare capacity, but not enough spare capacity to support an industrial park.
and they didn't have enough utilization of the existing capacity to support it making sense for them to get more.
You see how the feedback loop kind of gets installed.
And so it situations like that where I a big fan of a little goes a long way and finding those places where a well effort moves the needle a lot for a larger group of people and has more impact than the energy that put into it
Wherever I can find those kinds of situations, that gets my engineering brain super happy because then it's first order effects, it's second order effects.
It's an entourage effect of positivity that we can bring to these places.
And one reason that we have multiple sites is so that we can have that effect in multiple places and really change the narrative around this space at a level that isn't just one community.
It's statewide. Our facilities are all over the state. And for us as well, being distributed gives us insulation. I mean, that gives us a little bit more power to be in charge of our fate if we are not tied to one specific utility keeping our rates or raising our rates.
It's much easier to have to find something to do with a site that isn't going to be viable in a couple of years that is one of eight versus one of one.
And I think of the largest miners that have 100% of their capacity in one town in Texas.
And they may have amazing economics, but that is a central point of failure.
That is a single point of failure that if something goes wrong, you no longer have a business.
And I don't ever want that to be us.
Right, right.
So if I want to mine through you guys,
from Abundant Mines,
do you pick the transactions in the block?
How does that work?
So when you're mining with us,
you get to pick your pool rules.
So if you're on Ocean with us,
we have datum servers set up.
And so you get lower fees
and those block templates are being created
at the node level.
But we allow our clients to do
whatever makes sense for them. So some people will choose FPPS pools. But there's optionality.
Everybody. Yeah. Pretty much everybody falls within those two is either ocean or one of the
FPPS pools. We do have a couple of people who choose to solo mine with a portion of their fleet,
which hats off to them. May the odds be in their favor. And so those are the typical ways that the
people go about it. But now people, we want to do whatever we can to make it easy, turnkey,
and support our client's decision at the pool level, at the custody level, whatever it may be,
so that they've got as much sovereignty as possible with as little complexity and operational
burden as possible. And how long to deploy? If I want to, if I call you up tomorrow or email you,
How fast can I get rolling on mining?
Yeah.
Well, depending on how big your order is, maybe same day.
We always keep a stock of a certain amount of units.
And as long as we've got them available, once payments in and your hosting agreement's executed,
as long as you get us your pool information, you could be on that same day or the next day.
We guarantee three weeks because some people come in with larger orders and we've got to do
custom orders on those.
And so we're always going to get you online inside of three weeks.
But, you know, some people go straight from payment to hashing within an hour or two.
Well, what if I'm a blank slate and I don't know what I want to buy?
I don't know.
I just want to I want to deploy some capital.
That's what I know.
And whatever that number is, how do I get from this is how much I want to put into mining to that's seven machines or that's X amount of hash?
Like, how do I fit?
Like, do you guys help that with that part?
Or how does that work?
We'll do, we do one-on-one consults with everybody who's thinking about getting into this because
it is like I mentioned with, with even mining sites, there's no right or wrong answer.
There's just trade-offs.
So different machines fit different purposes.
Not everybody wants the most efficient machine, nor does it make sense for them.
Though by and large, the most efficient is what I would recommend for people that don't
know what they want or don't know why they're doing it.
You know, some people have more aggressive stacking goals and don't care as much about their their fiat denominated margins on a monthly basis. And so their goal is just put on as much hash as possible. I just want to accumulate the most Bitcoin for this budget. And I don't care what my monthly net margin is. I'm not doing this for cash flow. But all of that is unpacked on on a one on one call.
So people that are looking at getting started with us, our website, AbundantMinds.com, there should be a big button that says like learn more, get started.
And that'll just take you through a sequence where you can get on a call with one of our client advisors, work through what you're thinking about for budget, what your goals are with it.
if you're looking for cash flow, if you're just trying to accumulate Bitcoin, if you're primarily
looking at the tax benefits, the offsets, really get a sense of what is going to make most sense
for the individual, because it is an individual choice. It is not a one size fits all. Here is
your mining package. This will work for you. Everybody's got a unique situation, even down to
the frequency of when they want to pay for their power. Some people will front load that just so
they have no psychological inclination to sell any of their coin to pay for power because the
opportunity cost of doing that over the course of five or ten years you know that can be some
of the most expensive power you've ever paid for if you're paying for it out of your bitcoin earnings
and uh he doesn't love me telling the story but one of our our earliest techs was mining in 2012
paid a few thousand bucks for his power bill out of the Bitcoin that he mined. And that's about
100 Bitcoin that no longer sitting in a wallet under his control because opportunity cost. You
paid for an expense that you had to pay for, but it came out of arguably the wrong account.
So all of those are individual choices. All of them play into investor psychology. And we do our
best to make sure that you're set up for success, not just in terms of is your miner online and is
it working, but are you navigating the space, this time and space well as an investor?
Yeah, I think about time and space, maybe as a miner, what do you think about the four year cycle?
Is that a thing still? Is that dead? Do you get a different vibe or what's the pulse of maybe,
you know, or the vantage point you have as a miner?
I would agree that the four-year cycle is looking pretty dead. I think that we've hit the point, and you could make an argument that it was just sort of copy-pasted over the business cycle too, which I didn't really even see as a possibility until this year.
But I do think that the four year cycle that that people sort of thought was based on the having and based largely on on miners liquidating coins as as one of these market forces, I think we're just past those days.
I mean, the amount of coins being put onto the market by miners compared to other sources of liquidity, other capital pools, other, you know, other large holders of Bitcoin.
I mean, we're just so inconsequential at this point.
And, you know, in the early years, many of the miners were holding a huge store of coins. And now that's not so much the case. There's not a whole lot of the total network supply that exists in the hands of at least the public miners that we're aware of.
And so I do think that we're exiting the four-year cycle regime, if it ever existed, the way that we sort of conceptualized that it existed those first few cycles.
And I don't know what's coming. I don't know if we're sort of in the super cycle where we just melt up forever now.
I tend to believe that there will continue to be corrections, but I do think that anybody who's gotten comfortable and accustomed to being able to chart a pattern that has repeated multiple times historically probably does not have such an easy road looking forward.
What maybe has you most excited about Bitcoin going into 2026?
I think the most exciting thing to me is the sense that right now Bitcoin is a severely mispriced asset. We had nothing but positive news in 2025 in terms of political wins and adoption and new ways of accessing Bitcoin, not just as a store of value, but as a medium of exchange, usage and payments, new people onboarded, new institutions onboarded, new governments onboarded.
I mean, it's such a sea change that for us to be lower in price than we were a year ago is kind of hilarious.
And so I think as an investor, one of my favorite things is getting to spot a deal before other people do.
And that's what it feels like being in the space right now.
I have no sense of concern, no sense of urgency, just a feeling that we're in the right place at the right time.
And patience will be rewarded.
Yeah, I just, whenever I talk about mining, it just makes me want to go out and build huge facilities and acquire all the equipment I can and rev it up.
And then even, I mean, it's probably such a learning curve to building the facility and then optimizing and iterating from there.
So I know my first run out would be, you know, you have to kind of do it more than once.
But it sounds so exciting.
And I can't, you know, probably the best time to get into it.
So I appreciate you coming on the show.
Please, I'll leave it to you for any parting words that people know they can find you in abundant minds.
I just want to echo that, that there's so much excitement being in this space.
And miners are just, by their nature, the most bullish Bitcoiners.
I mean, you're putting down infrastructure that's going to be there for probably a decade in most cases.
and so it's very exciting to me to be able to have that sort of time horizon and that vehicle of
converting my energy and converting other energy into this asset that is just world changing on
every level and getting to participate and bring other people along for the ride is is one of the
great joys of my life and I look forward to doing it for many more years I have really enjoyed getting
a chance to come on and talk to you, Cedric. And for anybody who's curious about working with us,
the website is probably the easiest way to get right on a call with one of our client advisors.
That's abundantminds.com. And then if you want to keep up with me, X, my personal handle would be
bow underscore Turner 21. And if you want to find abundant minds on any of the socials,
as well as our YouTube channel, where a lot more long form mining education happens,
Just search at Abundant Minds on all the platforms.
Yeah.
You know what I got?
I mean, what's really cool is like growing up too.
Like one of the things that was very alluring about real estate is that you get to build.
Yes.
Potentially, especially if you scale and you build a skyscraper or resort.
That seems less exciting in today's world because I don't think there were the buyers there to buy really exciting things that are built to last forever.
And, you know, there are different ways of looking at Bitcoin.
you know it's like buying a piece of manhattan or something very early on and it's granite and
but one way i look at it is uh even like comparing it to like baseball cards or collectibles it's
scarce and it's rare but like every sat is like buying a piece of a michael jordan rookie card
psa 10 you know and and sort of what you guys are doing with hosting it's sort of like you get to
buy you know maybe the penthouse or the condo in the abundant mind skyscrapers that you guys are
building in the digital world. And, you know, if you get yours now, like I was saying earlier in the
show, it's like, whether you look at the rent roll or just having, you know, your nice piece of the
pie in the sky, it'll just get more and more valuable in a space that is never going to
deteriorate or give you sort of the headaches of real estate. Hopefully real estate gets so repriced
and we can go back to doing amazing things in the physical world that will last forever. I think hard
money helps bring that along. So we'll see where it goes. Thank you so much for coming on the show.
This has been so dope. Thanks, Cedric.
curious about Bitcoin. And let's keep growing this community together. Stay curious,
keep stacking, and I'll catch you in the next one.