1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,780 Hey, hey, welcome to the Bitcoin Matrix. I'm your host, Cedric Youngelman. 2 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:11,460 I've already ditched traditional health insurance and already signed up my entire family for CrowdHealth 3 00:00:11,460 --> 00:00:15,000 because CrowdHealth isn't about profits. It's about people. 4 00:00:15,380 --> 00:00:21,160 You get real support, a team that negotiates your bills, super low cost prescriptions and labs, 5 00:00:21,380 --> 00:00:24,640 and access to doctors who actually treat you like a person. 6 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:27,720 If something big happens, you cover the first $500. 7 00:00:28,300 --> 00:00:30,580 Then the crowd steps in to share the rest. 8 00:00:31,020 --> 00:00:35,620 Thousands of members have already saved tens of thousands compared to old school insurance. 9 00:00:36,060 --> 00:00:41,400 With subsidies ending and costs skyrocketing, now's the time to take charge of your health care the smart way. 10 00:00:41,780 --> 00:00:44,080 Simple, direct, and community powered. 11 00:00:44,420 --> 00:00:48,140 This open enrollment, don't just re-sign because you're told to. 12 00:00:48,480 --> 00:00:52,720 Choose to opt out of the broken system and join a movement that actually has your back. 13 00:00:52,720 --> 00:01:02,440 Join me and my family and get started today for just $99 per month for your first three months using code MATRIX at joincrowdhealth.com. 14 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:07,820 CrowdHealth. This is not insurance. Take your power back. This is how we win. 15 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:16,360 Last year, I partnered with MicroSeed because this is the best damn seed storage hardware I've seen in eight plus years of being in the space. 16 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:20,340 They supply titanium, stainless steel, and nylon washers. 17 00:01:20,340 --> 00:01:26,380 Imagine storing your seed phrase on nylon short term to get through body scanners, x-rays, and metal detectors. 18 00:01:26,860 --> 00:01:31,900 Imagine stamping the words, so small, they are nearly invisible to the human eye. 19 00:01:32,340 --> 00:01:40,520 MicroSeed engraves your entire Bitcoin seed phrase on a fireproof, waterproof steel or titanium washer the size of a dime. 20 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:43,920 Discreet, resilient, seed security made simple. 21 00:01:44,340 --> 00:01:47,700 Use the code MATRIX for a discount at microseed.io. 22 00:01:47,700 --> 00:01:51,000 Thank you for tuning in to the Bitcoin Matrix podcast. 23 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:54,240 Please make sure to like and subscribe to the show. 24 00:01:54,780 --> 00:01:57,080 Write a five-star review wherever you listen. 25 00:01:57,660 --> 00:02:01,400 Share your favorite episodes with your friends and family to help spread the word. 26 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:05,960 And definitely check out our new website, thebitcoinmatrix.com, 27 00:02:06,100 --> 00:02:10,720 where you can sign up for our upcoming newsletter, connect with me directly, 28 00:02:10,940 --> 00:02:16,040 and buy fresh and dope Bitcoin Matrix merchandise like hats, mugs, and t-shirts. 29 00:02:16,580 --> 00:02:22,000 Today's episode is about building something that lasts, not just for years, but for decades. 30 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:27,000 I sit down with Bo Turner, co-founder and CEO of Abundant Minds. 31 00:02:27,220 --> 00:02:31,540 And what starts out as a conversation about mining quickly becomes something bigger, 32 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:36,120 a deep exploration of what it means to convert energy into sovereignty. 33 00:02:36,500 --> 00:02:38,340 Bo's path here wasn't easy. 34 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:43,960 From building a successful real estate business to catastrophic losses and sketchy mining 35 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:44,620 operations. 36 00:02:44,620 --> 00:02:53,620 But now he's on the other side, helping everyday investors participate in something that was once reserved only for industrial giants. 37 00:02:53,620 --> 00:03:13,120 We're talking about the death of the four-year cycle, why miners are the most bullish people in Bitcoin, why proof of work is the only game that matters, and why right now, in 2026, despite every positive signal you can imagine, Bitcoin remains one of the most mispriced assets on Earth. 38 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:16,140 This isn't just about hash rate and electricity costs. 39 00:03:16,580 --> 00:03:17,640 It's about conviction. 40 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:21,820 It's about understanding that while everyone else is chasing narratives, 41 00:03:22,300 --> 00:03:27,240 there are people quietly building the physical backbone of a monetary revolution. 42 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:31,040 If you've ever wondered what it takes to truly commit to Bitcoin, 43 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:33,700 this conversation will show you. 44 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:37,800 And now, let's enter the Bitcoin matrix with Bo Turner. 45 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:42,720 What is real? 46 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:45,300 How do you define freedom? 47 00:03:46,020 --> 00:03:48,060 You can't jump into cash. 48 00:03:50,140 --> 00:03:51,720 Cash is trash. 49 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:54,560 What do you do? You get out. 50 00:03:57,860 --> 00:04:00,360 Bo, welcome to the Bitcoin Matrix. How are you? 51 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:03,440 Thanks for having me, Cedric. I am super excited for this. 52 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:06,820 And you have my favorite show title that I've ever seen before. 53 00:04:07,140 --> 00:04:08,560 Oh, well, that's really cool. 54 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:12,320 And, you know, it's probably my second take trying to introduce you. 55 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:15,860 And I stumbled on your name because it actually it's like my son's nickname, Bo. 56 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:18,680 So it's sort of the short version of his name, Boaz. 57 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:21,260 But and so I just I have an affinity there. 58 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:22,860 I'm really excited to get into it. 59 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:28,200 I think we're going to see each other in person probably before this comes out at Bitcoin Day Naples. 60 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:30,580 So we'll probably find people hear this. 61 00:04:30,740 --> 00:04:33,060 We've already had a good time and met there. 62 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:35,800 So but I want to hear about your background. 63 00:04:36,380 --> 00:04:37,760 My wife's in real estate. 64 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:40,160 What is your background like in real estate? 65 00:04:40,300 --> 00:04:41,540 What were you up to there? 66 00:04:41,540 --> 00:05:11,420 Well, my family, I'm lucky to have grown up in a family that taught investing education pretty early on. And so one of the great gifts that I had growing up was one to learn about sound money through gold and other precious metals, which was a really helpful kind of pre wiring to be wired to understand or at least be willing to look at Bitcoin in the first years that I was exposed to it. 67 00:05:11,540 --> 00:05:16,620 The second vehicle that was probably most beneficial and most present in my young life 68 00:05:16,620 --> 00:05:17,320 was real estate. 69 00:05:17,820 --> 00:05:22,300 And so as soon as I turned 18, I was working on deals. 70 00:05:22,300 --> 00:05:27,540 I would do driving for dollars, go out and look for distressed properties, look at assigning 71 00:05:27,540 --> 00:05:33,960 contracts, and really had it out as a goal of mine to build a cash-flowing real estate 72 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:39,080 portfolio more so than any other reason just because I wanted to be able to not have to 73 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:40,120 work at some point. 74 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:42,520 And ideally, you know, as early as possible. 75 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:44,440 So I have as much optionality as possible. 76 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:48,680 So when I was living in Texas, I went to undergrad in Texas. 77 00:05:49,140 --> 00:05:54,600 I focused on real estate, building a real estate company, mostly around single family 78 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:55,660 and light commercial. 79 00:05:55,960 --> 00:06:00,620 So doing a lot of marketing for properties, closing on the ones that I thought were the 80 00:06:00,620 --> 00:06:05,600 best deals, and then assigning the ones to other investors for a profit, any that I didn't 81 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:07,920 either want to close on or have the ability to close on. 82 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:12,800 since I was still a relatively young guy, didn't have infinite money to close on deals. 83 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:19,200 But that was a lot of the framing and the background for me learning about Bitcoin. 84 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:23,260 It was while I was really full time in the real estate space, 85 00:06:23,280 --> 00:06:25,560 just coming out of engineering for my undergrad. 86 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:26,160 Wow. 87 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:30,220 I want to break down maybe or hear more about your upbringing 88 00:06:30,220 --> 00:06:35,720 and how your family got across that investing was important and what that means 89 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:37,980 and got you ready to get going at 18. 90 00:06:38,180 --> 00:06:40,400 What was sort of, can you expand or elaborate on that? 91 00:06:40,940 --> 00:06:42,980 I'm not sure that this is the path 92 00:06:42,980 --> 00:06:46,960 for most young adults or teens, 93 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:51,440 but I always had a fascination with money and investments 94 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:54,200 because I saw it as a way to create 95 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:57,040 without it being directly by your own effort. 96 00:06:57,040 --> 00:06:59,380 So sort of a multiplication of your own effort 97 00:06:59,380 --> 00:07:00,120 or intelligence. 98 00:07:00,700 --> 00:07:02,420 And so I had a natural draw to it. 99 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:04,420 And I'm just lucky that my parents 100 00:07:04,420 --> 00:07:12,320 had an investing mindset and my grandparents as well. And I think most of it came from, 101 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:17,400 and this is not necessarily good programming, but the sense that there's never quite enough. 102 00:07:17,700 --> 00:07:22,920 And I think that's really born in sort of depression era experiences that my grandparents 103 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:30,140 had that naturally were passed on to my parents. And there's this through line of you've always got 104 00:07:30,140 --> 00:07:36,880 to understand what you own and be very certain that it's not going to get inflated away, that 105 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:42,400 it's not going to get taken from you. You know, they're very familiar growing up with the executive 106 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:49,240 order that seized all of the gold. And so the whole mindset around accumulating sound money, 107 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:55,120 accumulating hard assets was something that was just drilled into me kind of without my knowing 108 00:07:55,120 --> 00:08:00,560 and shaped a lot of how I looked at investing, especially as I got to investing age and had sort 109 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:05,400 of my own funds to think about. Sure. I'm sort of reflecting on my own upbringing and I'm thinking 110 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:10,620 about maybe some similar or parallel points, but what did you, I mean, were you also investing in 111 00:08:10,620 --> 00:08:15,580 stocks? And the reason I asked that, I think a lot of people with your mindset or that mindset 112 00:08:15,580 --> 00:08:20,760 choose one or the other stocks or real estate. Real estate tends to come with more leverage, 113 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:26,400 but also more sweat equity, more physical labor or work, maybe more opportunity to multiply. 114 00:08:26,500 --> 00:08:31,380 So what was your thinking there? And what about college? Was college in the mix or did you skip 115 00:08:31,380 --> 00:08:36,280 that? My undergrad was engineering, so I didn't spend a whole lot of time in the financial world 116 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:40,880 when I was in college, apart from just thinking about it for myself. It's funny that you say that 117 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:47,340 because I did have a tendency toward thinking about stocks and equities specifically, especially 118 00:08:47,340 --> 00:08:53,100 during high school. That was kind of my preferred. I saw that as having more opportunity. But then 119 00:08:53,100 --> 00:08:58,740 as time went on, I know that you can get a dividend stock portfolio that pays you income. 120 00:08:58,740 --> 00:09:06,140 But really what drew me into real estate was this idea that I could build a portfolio of diverse 121 00:09:06,140 --> 00:09:11,040 assets that would cash flow far into the future. And those cash flows, as long as I picked my 122 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:17,320 markets right, had the potential to grow as well. And this was before I had a sense of what the 123 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:22,340 actual hurdle rate was and something that we as Bitcoiners get more accustomed to is really it's 124 00:09:22,340 --> 00:09:29,160 the expansion of the monetary supply. But for me at the time, I thought, OK, I can get a portfolio 125 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:34,240 of cash flowing assets that grows, sustains its own growth at some point, kind of has a snowball 126 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:40,200 effect. And if I manage it well, you know, install the right systems and the right team, it doesn't 127 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:46,040 necessarily take any time for me. And so that was that was the appeal for me. I thought stocks were 128 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:52,160 were a great way if I had a unique edge, but I never found that I had that much more of an edge 129 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:57,680 over anybody else when it came to research in public markets. Whereas in the real estate space, 130 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:01,960 you know, you, as long as you put in sweat equity and do your own marketing, it's, it's very possible 131 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:07,500 to find unique deals that other people aren't exposed to just by your own effort. Wow. And so 132 00:10:07,500 --> 00:10:12,800 you're juggling college, you're building your real estate portfolio. When and how did you fall down 133 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:20,900 the Bitcoin rabbit hole? So it was early on in school. And I wish I could say that I got it 134 00:10:20,900 --> 00:10:27,220 upon first exposure and that I just went all in. But the reality was, oh, that looks interesting. 135 00:10:27,560 --> 00:10:31,160 You know, that looks like something that might have a chance of being successful. 136 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:37,440 Definitely under $1,000 Bitcoin at this point. It was around 2015. And I would have loved to get 137 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:44,680 more, but I'm unashamed to say that at the time I thought Ethereum was a far more interesting 138 00:10:44,680 --> 00:10:49,980 thing to study and unpack. I thought, okay, cool. There's this digital gold thing, but 139 00:10:49,980 --> 00:10:58,240 what is this world computer? This seems like a bigger idea. Happily, I was able to reverse that 140 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:04,620 mindset and unlearn that thinking right around when Ethereum did the shift from proof of work 141 00:11:04,620 --> 00:11:10,340 to proof of stake. That was a big turning point for me in terms of getting out of the diversification 142 00:11:10,340 --> 00:11:15,420 mindset and realizing that, as Saylor would say, you don't sell your winners to buy your losers. 143 00:11:15,940 --> 00:11:20,640 Yeah, no, that's really interesting. Around that conversation, I mean, how'd you kind of sort 144 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:28,520 through proof of work versus proof of stake? It really started from the perspective of how does 145 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:34,820 this shift impact the miners? I mean, that was I was not a miner at this point. I had I had dabbled 146 00:11:34,820 --> 00:11:40,400 in mining. I had one small experience in 2016 and then just kind of forgot about it for several 147 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:46,720 years. But when that shift was taking place, I couldn't help but think, what about all those 148 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:52,360 people that put hundreds of thousands, if not millions or potentially hundreds of millions 149 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:59,600 into computing equipment for a particular purpose. And then some person or group of people decides, 150 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:04,560 I'm just going to change it up real quick. Like we're going to, we're going to phase that out. 151 00:12:04,820 --> 00:12:09,480 That, that seemed to me like it was, if nothing else, it was just like a splinter in my mind. 152 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:15,860 Like how, how could someone or some group of people do this to economic actors who are supporting 153 00:12:15,860 --> 00:12:20,800 their project? And, you know, that line of questioning led me down. Well, you know, 154 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:26,600 why did this happen? Why could this happen? And why can't it happen for Bitcoin? Why couldn't 155 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:32,740 something similar happen for Bitcoin? And that really was the beginning of unpacking why is 156 00:12:32,740 --> 00:12:37,740 proof of work important? Why is it important that it is a proof of work network and not something 157 00:12:37,740 --> 00:12:45,520 else? And, you know, to make a long story short, I think that whole unpacking of what proof of work 158 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:54,060 means had not just an impact on what I chose to allocate to in the Bitcoin space, but also a whole 159 00:12:54,060 --> 00:13:00,780 mindset shift of what is valuable in the world. How do we show up as people in a way that supports 160 00:13:00,780 --> 00:13:07,100 the most human flourishing? And I mentioned earlier, investing to me seemed like a way to 161 00:13:07,100 --> 00:13:35,199 create results while still being lazy Well getting deeper into proof of work helped me realize that it not even necessarily the most satisfying way of showing up in the world is to just be lazy and get results And I credit early studies of mining and getting more into the mining side of the network as really helping me reframe my whole mindset about how I approach work and creation and living a life of value 162 00:13:35,199 --> 00:14:05,179 And I know many people have this personal sense of transformation, the longer that they spend in the Bitcoin space, the more that they study it. And I'll just be an extra data point that I feel I made a complete personal transformation the more that I studied this network, put my energy into it, and recognize that it really was just showing up as this great mirror for how to live a life, how to cooperate with other people, how to set up systems. 163 00:14:05,199 --> 00:14:09,959 rules and incentives that that inspire the best forms of action from all of us. 164 00:14:10,259 --> 00:14:13,499 And that journey is still, you know, mid stride. 165 00:14:13,579 --> 00:14:15,499 I'm just I'm just happy to still be on it. 166 00:14:15,499 --> 00:14:20,739 But the results so far a few years in to really diving deep, you know, being a Bitcoiner for 167 00:14:20,739 --> 00:14:24,139 10 years, but truly, truly studying for the last five or six. 168 00:14:24,279 --> 00:14:28,699 It's hard to quantify how profound the shift in mindset has been over that time. 169 00:14:29,059 --> 00:14:30,219 Health insurance is broken. 170 00:14:30,519 --> 00:14:31,159 I know it. 171 00:14:31,459 --> 00:14:32,099 You know it. 172 00:14:32,099 --> 00:14:41,839 So when open enrollment rolls around and all those health insurance companies start hoping you'll just re-sign, eyes closed, for the same overpriced plan with confusing fine print. 173 00:14:42,059 --> 00:14:45,599 It feels like they're betting on your inaction, but we deserve better than that. 174 00:14:45,919 --> 00:14:49,099 That's why I started looking for something different for me and my family. 175 00:14:49,559 --> 00:14:50,319 Something honest. 176 00:14:50,679 --> 00:14:52,019 That's when I found CrowdHealth. 177 00:14:52,479 --> 00:14:54,439 With CrowdHealth, it's not about profits. 178 00:14:54,739 --> 00:14:56,339 It's about people and community. 179 00:14:56,339 --> 00:15:01,759 You get a team that helps negotiate your bills, access to low-cost prescriptions and lab tests. 180 00:15:02,099 --> 00:15:04,439 and a list of doctors who don't treat you like a number. 181 00:15:04,819 --> 00:15:08,119 And if something major happens, you cover the first $500. 182 00:15:08,639 --> 00:15:10,979 Then the crowd steps in to help share the rest. 183 00:15:10,979 --> 00:15:12,159 It feels real. 184 00:15:12,599 --> 00:15:15,019 It feels like taking care of your health the way it should be. 185 00:15:15,399 --> 00:15:17,359 Simple, direct, and human. 186 00:15:17,919 --> 00:15:23,099 Thousands of members already say CrowdHealth saved them tens of thousands of dollars over traditional insurance. 187 00:15:23,499 --> 00:15:26,659 And with many subsidy programs ending and costs rising, 188 00:15:27,099 --> 00:15:30,199 there's never been a more important time to take charge of your health care. 189 00:15:30,199 --> 00:15:33,779 So this open enrollment, don't sign because you're told to. 190 00:15:34,139 --> 00:15:35,339 Sign because you choose to. 191 00:15:35,839 --> 00:15:40,379 If you're ready to join a community that looks out for you, give CrowdHealth a try. 192 00:15:40,739 --> 00:15:48,419 Join CrowdHealth to get started today for $99 for your first three months using code MATRIX at joincrowdhealth.com. 193 00:15:48,699 --> 00:15:50,219 CrowdHealth is not insurance. 194 00:15:50,779 --> 00:15:51,299 Opt out. 195 00:15:51,779 --> 00:15:52,719 Take your power back. 196 00:15:52,999 --> 00:15:53,919 This is how we win. 197 00:15:53,919 --> 00:16:05,399 And I guess as part of that mindset shift, did you want to just milk your real estate cash flows 198 00:16:05,399 --> 00:16:10,899 to acquire Spot Bitcoin and put it in self-custody? Or did you, 199 00:16:11,839 --> 00:16:15,359 when did you get involved in mining and what was that like? 200 00:16:15,359 --> 00:16:23,199 So I would like to say that it was all a logical, direct path in that vein where I just thought, 201 00:16:23,199 --> 00:16:27,359 okay, I have these assets and I'm going to take some of the energy that they're throwing off and 202 00:16:27,359 --> 00:16:33,499 put that into the network through buying spot. What really happened was I started to lose passion 203 00:16:33,499 --> 00:16:40,099 for real estate in general and definitely could have just maintained what we had and kept it. 204 00:16:40,439 --> 00:16:45,839 But the decision between my wife and I, we were also moving at the time. So we're open to changing 205 00:16:45,839 --> 00:16:50,999 our lives in multiple different ways. At that time, we decided to start liquidating property 206 00:16:50,999 --> 00:16:57,199 to start buying more Bitcoin. And it started out just from a place of being kind of tired and 207 00:16:57,199 --> 00:17:02,339 uninspired by real estate and having this thing that we believed in more. And around that time, 208 00:17:02,339 --> 00:17:08,639 during that time period, I was also, as I mentioned, drawn into mining by these questions 209 00:17:08,639 --> 00:17:15,119 and the sort of comparison between Bitcoin and other networks. And I had a data center background 210 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:22,519 in engineering undergrad. So I had enough coursework to be dangerous and to see mining as an 211 00:17:22,519 --> 00:17:26,739 opportunity that, okay, if I can do this more efficiently than other people, then I actually 212 00:17:26,739 --> 00:17:34,019 end up with more Bitcoin than if I'm just buying spot. This is my more efficient conversion 213 00:17:34,019 --> 00:17:39,579 mechanism to take any sort of economic energy and turn it into Bitcoin. And so originally, 214 00:17:39,579 --> 00:17:48,019 we got started just by purchasing machines and sending them to a host and at the time that was 215 00:17:48,019 --> 00:17:56,639 a half million dollars from proceeds of some of these houses that were liquidating and it all was 216 00:17:56,639 --> 00:18:03,879 lost over the course of that that next 12 months so we got in business with the wrong host so many 217 00:18:03,879 --> 00:18:08,639 different things went wrong and it's hard to unpack all of them but suffice it to say it was 218 00:18:08,639 --> 00:18:13,539 the worst business or investing experience that either of us had ever had. And at the time, 219 00:18:13,999 --> 00:18:19,119 I mean, really for anyone, that's a huge amount of money to lose in any one go. And so we weren't 220 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:24,439 ruined by it. It didn't completely break us, but definitely put a damper on wedding planning since 221 00:18:24,439 --> 00:18:30,819 we had just gotten engaged. And we took what was left of our real estate portfolio, kind of 222 00:18:30,819 --> 00:18:37,659 assessed what options we had at that point, and realized that we still had enough to build a 223 00:18:37,659 --> 00:18:43,799 facility of our own and actually just set this up under our own care and control where we are in 224 00:18:43,799 --> 00:18:50,919 Oregon. And so we worked on building that facility that took about a year. And as we neared completion, 225 00:18:51,679 --> 00:18:59,179 realized there's a lot of other people like us who saw this opportunity, saw this vehicle that 226 00:18:59,179 --> 00:19:04,659 they can get into in the Bitcoin space and either have been burned or scared to be burned. They just 227 00:19:04,659 --> 00:19:09,599 want somewhere that they can feel safe. So we resonated with this point of view a lot and wanted 228 00:19:09,599 --> 00:19:15,819 to help this kind of person. And so that was really the birth of Abundant Minds as it is today, 229 00:19:15,819 --> 00:19:23,179 where we help people mine Bitcoin in this safe, all-inclusive environment in Oregon, in a great 230 00:19:23,179 --> 00:19:28,899 climate with all sorts of educational resources. But in the beginning, it was really just out of 231 00:19:28,899 --> 00:19:34,799 solving our own problem, solving our own pain that we experienced in the industry and building 232 00:19:34,799 --> 00:19:39,879 something that we felt would be an improvement on what most people's experience in the industry 233 00:19:39,879 --> 00:19:47,319 had been. Because from what we could tell, there was no real issue with mining as a business model 234 00:19:47,319 --> 00:19:52,559 or mining as an investment. It had everything to do with who people chose to work with and the 235 00:19:52,559 --> 00:19:57,859 operational integrity of the companies that were out there. And there are good ones, don't get me 236 00:19:57,859 --> 00:20:03,559 wrong. It's not like it's a sea of horrible actors, but there are enough bad stories, enough 237 00:20:03,559 --> 00:20:09,599 scams and too few really good, reputable operators that we felt like we could offer something unique. 238 00:20:09,919 --> 00:20:17,459 Wow. I mean, talk about a story there where you transform your business from real estate to 239 00:20:17,459 --> 00:20:24,719 allocate into Bitcoin. You go further into allocating into mining Bitcoin. You go through 240 00:20:24,719 --> 00:20:28,999 a horrible scam like that, but you still have faith and determination to carry through the 241 00:20:28,999 --> 00:20:35,479 original idea and improve upon it. Let's talk about maybe then the benefits of mining Bitcoin. 242 00:20:35,679 --> 00:20:41,579 How does it compare to real estate, but maybe have some advantages, maybe around the cash flow 243 00:20:41,579 --> 00:20:50,079 and taxes? I love describing mining to real estate investors because they are pretty analogous. I 244 00:20:50,079 --> 00:20:54,379 mean, it's about as close as you can get to the real estate model in the Bitcoin space. 245 00:20:54,719 --> 00:21:00,219 And it's because you have this physical asset, the miner, that's throwing off cash flows, 246 00:21:00,219 --> 00:21:04,019 which would be your rents, except your rents are denominated in Bitcoin. 247 00:21:05,019 --> 00:21:11,079 And just like real estate investors often have a sort of shortcut to creating and preserving 248 00:21:11,079 --> 00:21:15,399 wealth through the different tax advantages available through depreciation, you get the 249 00:21:15,399 --> 00:21:17,979 same benefit in mining, except it's accelerated. 250 00:21:18,799 --> 00:21:24,699 So in 2025, we got the big, beautiful bill passed in the US, which brought back 100% 251 00:21:24,699 --> 00:21:29,839 bonus depreciation on qualifying equipment, which mining servers are qualifying equipment 252 00:21:29,839 --> 00:21:37,459 when they're operated in a business. And so you've got this vehicle that real estate investors can 253 00:21:37,459 --> 00:21:42,599 get behind, one, because it has many of the same characteristics and benefits, but also because 254 00:21:42,599 --> 00:21:50,859 it's a physical thing. And one of my great joys in this is I love talking to Bitcoiners. I live 255 00:21:50,859 --> 00:21:58,399 around Bitcoiners all day, every day. But to me, the mission, the potential for impact that we can 256 00:21:58,399 --> 00:22:04,019 have that's unique, especially through a business like mining, is actually we can be a bridge for 257 00:22:04,019 --> 00:22:08,699 people who've not yet fallen all the way down the rabbit hole, not yet taken the orange pill, 258 00:22:09,319 --> 00:22:14,499 and give it to them in a vehicle that resonates with what they're already looking for and already 259 00:22:14,499 --> 00:22:20,399 looking at for investment opportunities. I find that the most challenging thing for people 260 00:22:20,399 --> 00:22:24,699 especially of an older demographic when they're trying to wrap their head around bitcoin 261 00:22:24,699 --> 00:22:31,319 is the non-physical nature and you cannot argue that bitcoin is totally non-physical if you've 262 00:22:31,319 --> 00:22:37,439 come to a mining site visit and laid your hands on a miner and seen a facility it becomes a very 263 00:22:37,439 --> 00:22:44,279 very real thing to you and you see what is going into securing this network versus if i just hear 264 00:22:44,279 --> 00:22:50,139 about bitcoin on on some forum or you know from a friend i have nothing to lay my hands on and so 265 00:22:50,139 --> 00:22:55,799 So one of my great joys is people that come from a real estate investing background, physical 266 00:22:55,799 --> 00:23:03,259 commodities investing background, the chance to see mining is their connection to understanding 267 00:23:03,259 --> 00:23:09,959 this network, not just as a non-physical intangible asset, but truly as a physical system that 268 00:23:09,959 --> 00:23:14,359 interacts with the world and has physical implications on how we all live our lives. 269 00:23:15,179 --> 00:23:15,299 Sure. 270 00:23:15,899 --> 00:23:20,299 Yeah, my experiences with mining are not as deep as yours, 271 00:23:20,899 --> 00:23:22,999 but I've gotten to go to some mining facilities. 272 00:23:23,399 --> 00:23:26,059 I have exposure to a mining sort of farm 273 00:23:26,059 --> 00:23:29,259 that I have a small percentage of, like 5% of that. 274 00:23:29,919 --> 00:23:33,979 And it changes and transforms how you think about the network 275 00:23:33,979 --> 00:23:37,719 when you have skin in the game from a very different angle. 276 00:23:38,099 --> 00:23:40,019 But one thing, maybe you could help me, 277 00:23:40,019 --> 00:23:43,499 how do you think through, let's think about, 278 00:23:43,499 --> 00:23:49,739 not so much reallocation from, say, real estate or instead of real estate, but I want to buy a 279 00:23:49,739 --> 00:23:55,719 certain amount of Bitcoin, but instead I want to try mining. So whatever number that is, 10,000, 280 00:23:55,779 --> 00:24:00,879 1,000, let's pick a number that's really easy, though. And what does that look like over a 281 00:24:00,879 --> 00:24:08,759 certain period of time? And not so much from a price appreciation standpoint, or just maybe price 282 00:24:08,759 --> 00:24:15,559 is steady in this example, but how do you get back to 100% even? If you put in 100 grand, 283 00:24:15,699 --> 00:24:22,019 is it going to take five years at X dollars if the price stayed the same? Or is it 20 years? 284 00:24:22,299 --> 00:24:25,519 And what does that look like? And what are some of the advantages of doing it that way versus 285 00:24:25,519 --> 00:24:31,539 just putting it right into Bitcoin? Yeah, that's a great question. So I touched on the two main 286 00:24:31,539 --> 00:24:37,839 things that people are typically interested in, which are the tax advantages and then the ability 287 00:24:37,839 --> 00:24:44,119 to get Bitcoin denominated cash flow. But the other reason people look at mining and the reason 288 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:49,059 that I originally started looking at mining was, okay, if I do this well, I can actually make more 289 00:24:49,059 --> 00:24:54,679 Bitcoin with the same capital investment as long as I've got a long enough time horizon. So the way 290 00:24:54,679 --> 00:24:59,899 that that typically works out, let's say you're spending a hundred grand on either mining 291 00:24:59,899 --> 00:25:06,239 infrastructure or spending a hundred grand on spot. For the first couple of years, like one to 292 00:25:06,239 --> 00:25:11,339 two years and i'm i'm going to use generalities because this shifts all the time so and then this 293 00:25:11,339 --> 00:25:17,979 is financial advice not financial advice and not a real-time model but just the back of the 294 00:25:17,979 --> 00:25:24,639 napkin math yeah back of the napkin mental framework the first couple of years that you 295 00:25:24,639 --> 00:25:30,259 were mining you were essentially catching up to what you would have bought if you just bought spot 296 00:25:30,259 --> 00:25:37,459 right around year two or three is typically where you hit that point where same capital invested, 297 00:25:37,459 --> 00:25:42,199 you've got about the same amount of Bitcoin that if you were just going to buy spot, 298 00:25:42,339 --> 00:25:47,839 if you had been mining for those three years. So assuming that a machine lasts longer than three 299 00:25:47,839 --> 00:25:55,039 years, you've got years, call it three through five or three through six or seven, where as long 300 00:25:55,039 --> 00:26:00,239 as you are mining efficiently, you've got your energy procured properly. The machine is on, 301 00:26:00,259 --> 00:26:06,419 It's actually got good uptime. It's well-maintained. You're not blowing a bunch of costs into just 302 00:26:06,419 --> 00:26:11,779 keeping it alive. Those years are your outperformance years where depending on what 303 00:26:11,779 --> 00:26:18,799 your situation looks like, you might outperform Bitcoin by 10%, by 30%, by 50%. This all gets 304 00:26:18,799 --> 00:26:24,939 into individual scenarios. But just for rough estimates, as long as you've got a longer than 305 00:26:24,939 --> 00:26:41,659 three year time horizon mining if done well can outperform just buying an holding spot And that is part of the reason that if you were living on a Bitcoin standard if Bitcoin is your hurdle rate you would think about mining is do it well and you get more Bitcoin for the same amount of effort 306 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:47,339 Sure. And then so one of the things I find very exciting about mining, I think, you know, 307 00:26:47,479 --> 00:26:52,899 you start pontificating and thinking about the different opportunities to as maybe the 308 00:26:52,899 --> 00:26:58,919 whether you're providing the hosting services or building the facility and figuring out ways to optimize, 309 00:26:59,179 --> 00:27:01,319 make it more efficient, acquire cheaper energy. 310 00:27:01,619 --> 00:27:06,559 But what are some of the issues you ran into as someone who was trying to use hosting services? 311 00:27:06,979 --> 00:27:08,979 And what are some of the ways you've gotten? 312 00:27:09,499 --> 00:27:14,479 How is the experience different from some of the BS you dealt with in the past? 313 00:27:15,179 --> 00:27:19,099 And what's it like to be sort of hosted versus going out? 314 00:27:19,099 --> 00:27:23,139 I don't have to build it myself, but like, what is it like being sort of going through a hosting 315 00:27:23,139 --> 00:27:29,019 program? Well, in the ideal world, a hosting program is taking care of nearly everything for 316 00:27:29,019 --> 00:27:37,799 you operationally. And what I've seen go most wrong for people is over optimizing for one aspect 317 00:27:37,799 --> 00:27:42,759 of the relationship at the expense of everything else. For example, everybody knows that you've got 318 00:27:42,759 --> 00:27:49,299 to get reasonably priced energy in order for mining to make sense, you can over optimize for 319 00:27:49,299 --> 00:27:55,879 energy and give up geopolitical stability. You can give up good climate. You can give up machine 320 00:27:55,879 --> 00:28:02,099 lifespan. You can give up uptime all in pursuit of this, you know, holy grail of cheap energy. 321 00:28:02,639 --> 00:28:08,079 And I don't want to discount the fact that energy is super important when you're setting up a 322 00:28:08,079 --> 00:28:14,659 successful mining operation, but it is not the end all be all. For example, set up in Russia, 323 00:28:14,659 --> 00:28:19,279 and you've got some of the cheapest energy in the world, you have a pretty good chance of having your 324 00:28:19,279 --> 00:28:24,119 equipment seized and never seeing it again. Copy and paste that in quite a few unstable jurisdictions 325 00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:29,959 that people have had experience with prior. Or, you know, I throw no shade on our friends in Texas, 326 00:28:29,959 --> 00:28:35,839 they house about 30% of the network. But Texas, you can get relatively cheap energy, but the 327 00:28:35,839 --> 00:28:41,699 climate's much harsher. The curtailment is much more often. I mean, you're pretty happy if you get 328 00:28:41,699 --> 00:28:47,599 90% uptime or more versus in the Northwest, it's really easy to stay pretty close to 100% uptime 329 00:28:47,599 --> 00:28:51,959 because we have no curtailment like that. We don't have very hot days. We've got a very cool climate. 330 00:28:52,879 --> 00:28:57,919 So there's always trade-offs. And this is part of where an engineering background, 331 00:28:58,259 --> 00:29:03,039 kind of systems optimization background comes in, is there's no right answer. There's only trade-offs 332 00:29:03,039 --> 00:29:08,479 no matter what you're setting up. And so especially when you're first looking at mining, 333 00:29:08,579 --> 00:29:12,459 let's say that you're a brand new entrant to the space and you're just exploring it. 334 00:29:12,739 --> 00:29:17,839 The biggest mistake that I see people make is they make decisions based solely on their 335 00:29:17,839 --> 00:29:22,899 spreadsheets and they have no sense of what operational reality happens behind those 336 00:29:22,899 --> 00:29:28,359 spreadsheets. And that is where I got burned. That is where my worst decisions were made. 337 00:29:28,359 --> 00:29:36,699 that is where I can I could name every really major mistake as part of me not considering the 338 00:29:36,699 --> 00:29:41,259 operational reality that was behind the numbers that I was running when I was first looking at 339 00:29:41,259 --> 00:29:48,899 the investment. What is it like in Oregon? Why did you choose Oregon for the operation and the 340 00:29:48,899 --> 00:29:54,039 facilities and physical infrastructure? And what is the reaction been like? Or how's it been with 341 00:29:54,039 --> 00:29:59,559 the community? So far, we've only had really positive reception. And I think a lot of that 342 00:29:59,559 --> 00:30:04,059 is just due to us hiring locally and being involved in the communities that we set up. 343 00:30:04,519 --> 00:30:10,959 I mentioned it a little bit, but the climate is a huge piece of why Oregon is great for miners. 344 00:30:11,419 --> 00:30:16,599 There's also no sales tax, which is pretty material if you're spending $5,000, $10,000 on a unit. 345 00:30:16,599 --> 00:30:21,539 If you can save almost a grand just because you're in the right jurisdiction, that helps. 346 00:30:21,539 --> 00:30:26,959 The climate means that machines are up for, they have better uptime throughout the year. 347 00:30:27,239 --> 00:30:32,939 They are less stressed during the summer or winter months because we don't have excessive cold. 348 00:30:33,059 --> 00:30:35,379 It's not like well below zero most of the winter. 349 00:30:36,039 --> 00:30:41,859 And so they go through fewer thermal cycles, which usually means that you're adding years onto the back end of a miner's lifespan. 350 00:30:41,859 --> 00:30:53,299 Couple that with hydropower, highly renewables-based grid, really stable power that's got limited to no curtailment, depending on which utility you're talking about. 351 00:30:53,759 --> 00:31:03,119 And you have a recipe for, especially for the early years of a miner, where it's much more important how often it's up and how much total Bitcoin it produces than just your raw input costs. 352 00:31:03,559 --> 00:31:05,779 And you've got a really great place to mine. 353 00:31:05,779 --> 00:31:19,419 And when it goes well, as I mentioned, over the course of time, you've got this opportunity to outperform the underlying asset, which we're educating people about Bitcoin all the time. 354 00:31:19,419 --> 00:31:33,859 And I mentioned that most of our clients are coming in with little or no previous experience. So we're often helping people set up their first wallets, think through custody, think through security, all of these things. 355 00:31:33,859 --> 00:31:59,019 And so when I think of a 10 out of 10 experience for people, if they can get the most efficient access to Bitcoin with the fewest headaches, the fewest operational roadblocks and issues in the lowest risk jurisdiction and environment possible, while also getting to learn and go on the Bitcoin journey, that to me is a very successful outcome. 356 00:31:59,019 --> 00:32:02,099 When it comes to Bitcoin, the rules are simple. 357 00:32:02,679 --> 00:32:07,039 Run your own node, hold your own keys, and protect your seed phrase. 358 00:32:07,659 --> 00:32:09,459 That's where MicroSeed comes in. 359 00:32:10,119 --> 00:32:14,719 Unlike bulky backups, MicroSeed is stamped onto a tiny steel washer. 360 00:32:15,399 --> 00:32:20,979 Fireproof, waterproof, and so small you can carry it anywhere or hide it in plain sight. 361 00:32:21,559 --> 00:32:26,659 Go to MicroSeed.io and use the code MATRIX for a discount on your order. 362 00:32:26,659 --> 00:32:35,099 yeah there's all different sorts of ways to look at how you can use bitcoin in your financial life 363 00:32:35,099 --> 00:32:40,539 i think you know sort of certain allocation of your your income or your savings is actually you 364 00:32:40,539 --> 00:32:44,759 know using bitcoin as savings you can invest in bitcoin you could speculate on it bitcoin is uh 365 00:32:44,759 --> 00:32:51,259 mining and is like almost a way of like you know sort of pre-paying or dcaing and uh you reach 366 00:32:51,259 --> 00:32:58,379 that point, though, around year two or three, where you get, let's say that 100% quasi free 367 00:32:58,379 --> 00:33:02,719 Bitcoin. But if you also can look at it a different way, sort of like your rent roll, 368 00:33:03,279 --> 00:33:09,699 where in year one, or year two, let's say you're making $100 a month, you can almost think about 369 00:33:09,699 --> 00:33:13,639 sort of your, you know, your capital allocation, but you know, your down payment, but you make $100 370 00:33:13,639 --> 00:33:20,299 a month. And I know it's not a direct relationship where price goes up 4x and your roll goes up 4x 371 00:33:20,299 --> 00:33:23,239 because you have hash rate and different sort of elements here in the model. 372 00:33:23,319 --> 00:33:29,059 But let's say if your amount goes up for extra hundred a month becomes 400 a month one day. 373 00:33:29,299 --> 00:33:31,379 And again, this is paid out in Bitcoin. 374 00:33:31,379 --> 00:33:36,679 So you never have to even exchange it to dollars, but just thinking in dollar terms. 375 00:33:36,679 --> 00:33:40,879 And then you start getting to that point where that 400 a month becomes a thousand a month. 376 00:33:40,879 --> 00:33:45,639 It's like it's almost like Social Security or building your own retirement plan. 377 00:33:45,639 --> 00:33:50,299 And to your point, I mean, it has a lifespan of, say, five, six, seven years. 378 00:33:50,419 --> 00:33:57,539 But the way you build and the way you get involved, you can add to that over time and you can sort of maintain that in different ways. 379 00:33:57,819 --> 00:34:04,659 But it's a different way to create sort of this forward income stream, if you think about that way, or sort of sats flow instead of cash flow. 380 00:34:05,439 --> 00:34:07,439 So, you know, really cool there. 381 00:34:07,859 --> 00:34:11,499 Are you involved in the community at all in terms of like education? 382 00:34:11,499 --> 00:34:13,659 I think you were mentioning you're educating. 383 00:34:13,659 --> 00:34:19,819 and you know i think there's a you're growing food yeah we've got quite a few different ways 384 00:34:19,819 --> 00:34:24,399 every community is a little bit different in terms of what makes the most sense and what's 385 00:34:24,399 --> 00:34:31,779 actually the most beneficial so uh probably the the most fun project would be the greenhouse 386 00:34:31,779 --> 00:34:38,659 project where we're actually taking the waste heat from miners to heat a greenhouse through the winter 387 00:34:38,659 --> 00:34:45,159 grow food, donate that food to the local food bank, increase food security, give people access 388 00:34:45,159 --> 00:34:50,699 to fresh produce and nutrition. And that's not something that we do for profit. That's just a 389 00:34:50,699 --> 00:34:57,279 fun community give back and kind of a special project. But everywhere we set up, we try to have 390 00:34:57,279 --> 00:35:04,099 some kind of unique give back. And part of that is just because we want to be good stewards and 391 00:35:04,099 --> 00:35:09,439 good community members, but also the previous iterations of Bitcoin cycles where miners have 392 00:35:09,439 --> 00:35:14,939 come in, taken up all the substation capacity, and then in very quick fashion, either gone out of 393 00:35:14,939 --> 00:35:19,299 business or left, in many cases left with utilities holding the bag for their power bills, 394 00:35:19,519 --> 00:35:26,619 has not left the best taste in the mouths of many community leaders and utilities. And so in a sense, 395 00:35:26,779 --> 00:35:31,739 we're doing this because we want to build good relationships, but also just to help heal the 396 00:35:31,739 --> 00:35:38,719 image of the industry to some degree. So, and also just expand access to education, 397 00:35:38,919 --> 00:35:43,599 the ability for people to understand this network, not just think of us as these sort of energy 398 00:35:43,599 --> 00:35:48,679 pirates roving around and going from community to community to set up a mining site, but really 399 00:35:48,679 --> 00:35:54,179 coming for the holistic good of that community. So, you know, local employment, making sure that 400 00:35:54,179 --> 00:35:59,119 we're employing local trades and actually bringing jobs to the area is important. Running educational 401 00:35:59,119 --> 00:36:05,679 programs where we can contribute to scholarships locally for people in some of these communities, 402 00:36:05,799 --> 00:36:09,679 especially rural communities, where they might be looking at going into the trades, 403 00:36:10,079 --> 00:36:15,359 do internships as well at these sites where they can learn the basics of data center operations, 404 00:36:15,939 --> 00:36:22,179 some of the core elements of financial literacy, of understanding energy. I see this space 405 00:36:22,179 --> 00:36:29,179 outside of the ability to just impact communities at the physical level, at the resource level, 406 00:36:29,179 --> 00:36:35,379 with being a great vehicle for teaching, not just about Bitcoin, but about all of the systems that 407 00:36:35,379 --> 00:36:40,919 Bitcoin sort of reinvents and holds up a mirror to. Whether we're talking about energy or computing 408 00:36:40,919 --> 00:36:48,359 or the financial system, you've got a great vehicle in Bitcoin mining to help people unpack 409 00:36:48,359 --> 00:36:55,839 some core beliefs and fundamental forces that make up these mega trends that continue to shape 410 00:36:55,839 --> 00:37:01,399 and reshape our world. And arguably today, even faster than ever, all three of those things are 411 00:37:01,399 --> 00:37:07,119 morphing at a pace that if you don't have somebody teaching you about it or some way to access 412 00:37:07,119 --> 00:37:12,639 information about it, I think many people will wake up very confused in the next few years, 413 00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:16,879 the next few decades, if they don't have some fundamental learning around those three areas. 414 00:37:16,879 --> 00:37:27,539 Yeah, I mean, it seems like a really fun, cool way to be an independent business owner, to give back to the community in ways that I think are very beneficial and to be a member, a good member. 415 00:37:27,619 --> 00:37:32,139 I wish all businesses would take this sort of purview or approach. 416 00:37:32,779 --> 00:37:36,939 It seems like the businesses that do are more the, you know, the conglomerates. 417 00:37:36,999 --> 00:37:42,399 And it's a little bit more maybe like opportunities for propaganda or sort of like just reputation watching. 418 00:37:42,399 --> 00:37:48,799 washing. But in terms of the multiple locations, is that because each location has sort of natural 419 00:37:48,799 --> 00:37:55,959 limitations or is each location sort of like limitless and there's just different reasons 420 00:37:55,959 --> 00:38:03,399 to have multiple locations? It's primarily for diversification. There's also certain capacity 421 00:38:03,399 --> 00:38:09,039 constraints depending on where you're setting up. So we have a kind of unique situation in the 422 00:38:09,039 --> 00:38:15,139 Northwest, where there's a lot of infrastructure that's been left behind from other industries over 423 00:38:15,139 --> 00:38:21,499 the course of the years, usually something to do with the lumber industry. And so we, in many cases, 424 00:38:21,499 --> 00:38:28,339 have been able to go into these spots and find some kind of underutilized infrastructure that's 425 00:38:28,339 --> 00:38:34,659 just asking to have somebody come in and make better use of it. So that's the primary is, 426 00:38:34,659 --> 00:38:39,739 is there something there that's not being used to full capacity that by us coming in, 427 00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:45,039 in many cases to communities where they don't have many jobs at all or much economic activity 428 00:38:45,039 --> 00:38:51,579 going on at all, and actually provide some sort of benefit. Let's look for the places where 429 00:38:51,579 --> 00:38:57,839 they want us, where we can be helpful, where there is a reason that us being there will help 430 00:38:57,839 --> 00:39:03,179 them achieve something. I think about our first site, the first city that we set up in, 431 00:39:03,179 --> 00:39:29,519 And we went and utilized what was left on their substation in terms of capacity. And actually, as a result of that, they qualified for grants to get additional capacity and build new capacity for an industrial park that's been sitting vacant for decades now and has essentially just been an underutilized asset because they had spare capacity, but not enough spare capacity to support an industrial park. 432 00:39:29,519 --> 00:39:35,859 and they didn't have enough utilization of the existing capacity to support it making sense for them to get more. 433 00:39:35,859 --> 00:39:39,119 You see how the feedback loop kind of gets installed. 434 00:39:40,019 --> 00:39:56,018 And so it situations like that where I a big fan of a little goes a long way and finding those places where a well effort moves the needle a lot for a larger group of people and has more impact than the energy that put into it 435 00:39:56,018 --> 00:40:05,778 Wherever I can find those kinds of situations, that gets my engineering brain super happy because then it's first order effects, it's second order effects. 436 00:40:05,998 --> 00:40:10,838 It's an entourage effect of positivity that we can bring to these places. 437 00:40:11,758 --> 00:40:23,358 And one reason that we have multiple sites is so that we can have that effect in multiple places and really change the narrative around this space at a level that isn't just one community. 438 00:40:23,358 --> 00:40:42,138 It's statewide. Our facilities are all over the state. And for us as well, being distributed gives us insulation. I mean, that gives us a little bit more power to be in charge of our fate if we are not tied to one specific utility keeping our rates or raising our rates. 439 00:40:42,138 --> 00:40:51,618 It's much easier to have to find something to do with a site that isn't going to be viable in a couple of years that is one of eight versus one of one. 440 00:40:52,518 --> 00:40:59,118 And I think of the largest miners that have 100% of their capacity in one town in Texas. 441 00:40:59,958 --> 00:41:05,098 And they may have amazing economics, but that is a central point of failure. 442 00:41:05,098 --> 00:41:11,258 That is a single point of failure that if something goes wrong, you no longer have a business. 443 00:41:11,258 --> 00:41:13,118 And I don't ever want that to be us. 444 00:41:13,758 --> 00:41:14,558 Right, right. 445 00:41:14,938 --> 00:41:17,218 So if I want to mine through you guys, 446 00:41:17,558 --> 00:41:18,338 from Abundant Mines, 447 00:41:18,618 --> 00:41:22,138 do you pick the transactions in the block? 448 00:41:22,518 --> 00:41:23,578 How does that work? 449 00:41:23,878 --> 00:41:26,378 So when you're mining with us, 450 00:41:26,498 --> 00:41:28,098 you get to pick your pool rules. 451 00:41:28,438 --> 00:41:31,158 So if you're on Ocean with us, 452 00:41:31,498 --> 00:41:33,338 we have datum servers set up. 453 00:41:33,738 --> 00:41:35,678 And so you get lower fees 454 00:41:35,678 --> 00:41:38,158 and those block templates are being created 455 00:41:38,158 --> 00:41:38,958 at the node level. 456 00:41:39,278 --> 00:41:41,098 But we allow our clients to do 457 00:41:41,098 --> 00:41:46,318 whatever makes sense for them. So some people will choose FPPS pools. But there's optionality. 458 00:41:46,818 --> 00:41:51,538 Everybody. Yeah. Pretty much everybody falls within those two is either ocean or one of the 459 00:41:51,538 --> 00:41:57,338 FPPS pools. We do have a couple of people who choose to solo mine with a portion of their fleet, 460 00:41:57,338 --> 00:42:03,998 which hats off to them. May the odds be in their favor. And so those are the typical ways that the 461 00:42:03,998 --> 00:42:11,078 people go about it. But now people, we want to do whatever we can to make it easy, turnkey, 462 00:42:11,278 --> 00:42:17,358 and support our client's decision at the pool level, at the custody level, whatever it may be, 463 00:42:17,918 --> 00:42:22,578 so that they've got as much sovereignty as possible with as little complexity and operational 464 00:42:22,578 --> 00:42:30,018 burden as possible. And how long to deploy? If I want to, if I call you up tomorrow or email you, 465 00:42:30,018 --> 00:42:32,218 How fast can I get rolling on mining? 466 00:42:32,718 --> 00:42:32,838 Yeah. 467 00:42:32,978 --> 00:42:35,838 Well, depending on how big your order is, maybe same day. 468 00:42:36,518 --> 00:42:39,998 We always keep a stock of a certain amount of units. 469 00:42:40,418 --> 00:42:46,818 And as long as we've got them available, once payments in and your hosting agreement's executed, 470 00:42:46,998 --> 00:42:50,658 as long as you get us your pool information, you could be on that same day or the next day. 471 00:42:51,398 --> 00:42:56,758 We guarantee three weeks because some people come in with larger orders and we've got to do 472 00:42:56,758 --> 00:42:58,278 custom orders on those. 473 00:42:58,278 --> 00:43:01,378 And so we're always going to get you online inside of three weeks. 474 00:43:01,558 --> 00:43:05,718 But, you know, some people go straight from payment to hashing within an hour or two. 475 00:43:06,518 --> 00:43:10,758 Well, what if I'm a blank slate and I don't know what I want to buy? 476 00:43:10,918 --> 00:43:11,718 I don't know. 477 00:43:12,038 --> 00:43:14,218 I just want to I want to deploy some capital. 478 00:43:14,358 --> 00:43:15,078 That's what I know. 479 00:43:15,658 --> 00:43:27,558 And whatever that number is, how do I get from this is how much I want to put into mining to that's seven machines or that's X amount of hash? 480 00:43:27,558 --> 00:43:28,598 Like, how do I fit? 481 00:43:28,698 --> 00:43:30,458 Like, do you guys help that with that part? 482 00:43:30,538 --> 00:43:32,358 Or how does that work? 483 00:43:32,518 --> 00:43:37,658 We'll do, we do one-on-one consults with everybody who's thinking about getting into this because 484 00:43:37,658 --> 00:43:42,798 it is like I mentioned with, with even mining sites, there's no right or wrong answer. 485 00:43:42,878 --> 00:43:43,758 There's just trade-offs. 486 00:43:43,818 --> 00:43:46,258 So different machines fit different purposes. 487 00:43:46,658 --> 00:43:50,778 Not everybody wants the most efficient machine, nor does it make sense for them. 488 00:43:51,638 --> 00:43:55,518 Though by and large, the most efficient is what I would recommend for people that don't 489 00:43:55,518 --> 00:43:57,418 know what they want or don't know why they're doing it. 490 00:43:57,558 --> 00:44:20,518 You know, some people have more aggressive stacking goals and don't care as much about their their fiat denominated margins on a monthly basis. And so their goal is just put on as much hash as possible. I just want to accumulate the most Bitcoin for this budget. And I don't care what my monthly net margin is. I'm not doing this for cash flow. But all of that is unpacked on on a one on one call. 491 00:44:20,518 --> 00:44:29,778 So people that are looking at getting started with us, our website, AbundantMinds.com, there should be a big button that says like learn more, get started. 492 00:44:30,098 --> 00:44:39,418 And that'll just take you through a sequence where you can get on a call with one of our client advisors, work through what you're thinking about for budget, what your goals are with it. 493 00:44:39,418 --> 00:44:43,498 if you're looking for cash flow, if you're just trying to accumulate Bitcoin, if you're primarily 494 00:44:43,498 --> 00:44:49,278 looking at the tax benefits, the offsets, really get a sense of what is going to make most sense 495 00:44:49,278 --> 00:44:54,458 for the individual, because it is an individual choice. It is not a one size fits all. Here is 496 00:44:54,458 --> 00:44:59,898 your mining package. This will work for you. Everybody's got a unique situation, even down to 497 00:44:59,898 --> 00:45:06,678 the frequency of when they want to pay for their power. Some people will front load that just so 498 00:45:06,678 --> 00:45:13,718 they have no psychological inclination to sell any of their coin to pay for power because the 499 00:45:13,718 --> 00:45:18,838 opportunity cost of doing that over the course of five or ten years you know that can be some 500 00:45:18,838 --> 00:45:22,918 of the most expensive power you've ever paid for if you're paying for it out of your bitcoin earnings 501 00:45:23,478 --> 00:45:30,598 and uh he doesn't love me telling the story but one of our our earliest techs was mining in 2012 502 00:45:30,598 --> 00:45:37,498 paid a few thousand bucks for his power bill out of the Bitcoin that he mined. And that's about 503 00:45:37,498 --> 00:45:45,098 100 Bitcoin that no longer sitting in a wallet under his control because opportunity cost. You 504 00:45:45,098 --> 00:45:52,198 paid for an expense that you had to pay for, but it came out of arguably the wrong account. 505 00:45:53,058 --> 00:46:00,178 So all of those are individual choices. All of them play into investor psychology. And we do our 506 00:46:00,178 --> 00:46:05,478 best to make sure that you're set up for success, not just in terms of is your miner online and is 507 00:46:05,478 --> 00:46:11,058 it working, but are you navigating the space, this time and space well as an investor? 508 00:46:11,478 --> 00:46:16,918 Yeah, I think about time and space, maybe as a miner, what do you think about the four year cycle? 509 00:46:17,798 --> 00:46:23,878 Is that a thing still? Is that dead? Do you get a different vibe or what's the pulse of maybe, 510 00:46:23,878 --> 00:46:25,978 you know, or the vantage point you have as a miner? 511 00:46:25,978 --> 00:46:42,198 I would agree that the four-year cycle is looking pretty dead. I think that we've hit the point, and you could make an argument that it was just sort of copy-pasted over the business cycle too, which I didn't really even see as a possibility until this year. 512 00:46:42,198 --> 00:46:55,678 But I do think that the four year cycle that that people sort of thought was based on the having and based largely on on miners liquidating coins as as one of these market forces, I think we're just past those days. 513 00:46:55,778 --> 00:47:05,918 I mean, the amount of coins being put onto the market by miners compared to other sources of liquidity, other capital pools, other, you know, other large holders of Bitcoin. 514 00:47:05,918 --> 00:47:09,518 I mean, we're just so inconsequential at this point. 515 00:47:09,518 --> 00:47:26,898 And, you know, in the early years, many of the miners were holding a huge store of coins. And now that's not so much the case. There's not a whole lot of the total network supply that exists in the hands of at least the public miners that we're aware of. 516 00:47:26,898 --> 00:47:38,238 And so I do think that we're exiting the four-year cycle regime, if it ever existed, the way that we sort of conceptualized that it existed those first few cycles. 517 00:47:38,238 --> 00:47:44,458 And I don't know what's coming. I don't know if we're sort of in the super cycle where we just melt up forever now. 518 00:47:44,458 --> 00:48:01,978 I tend to believe that there will continue to be corrections, but I do think that anybody who's gotten comfortable and accustomed to being able to chart a pattern that has repeated multiple times historically probably does not have such an easy road looking forward. 519 00:48:02,398 --> 00:48:05,838 What maybe has you most excited about Bitcoin going into 2026? 520 00:48:05,838 --> 00:48:34,198 I think the most exciting thing to me is the sense that right now Bitcoin is a severely mispriced asset. We had nothing but positive news in 2025 in terms of political wins and adoption and new ways of accessing Bitcoin, not just as a store of value, but as a medium of exchange, usage and payments, new people onboarded, new institutions onboarded, new governments onboarded. 521 00:48:34,198 --> 00:48:40,938 I mean, it's such a sea change that for us to be lower in price than we were a year ago is kind of hilarious. 522 00:48:41,418 --> 00:48:48,198 And so I think as an investor, one of my favorite things is getting to spot a deal before other people do. 523 00:48:48,898 --> 00:48:51,078 And that's what it feels like being in the space right now. 524 00:48:51,078 --> 00:48:57,678 I have no sense of concern, no sense of urgency, just a feeling that we're in the right place at the right time. 525 00:48:58,298 --> 00:49:00,238 And patience will be rewarded. 526 00:49:00,238 --> 00:49:11,878 Yeah, I just, whenever I talk about mining, it just makes me want to go out and build huge facilities and acquire all the equipment I can and rev it up. 527 00:49:12,118 --> 00:49:20,778 And then even, I mean, it's probably such a learning curve to building the facility and then optimizing and iterating from there. 528 00:49:21,338 --> 00:49:26,358 So I know my first run out would be, you know, you have to kind of do it more than once. 529 00:49:26,358 --> 00:49:28,658 But it sounds so exciting. 530 00:49:29,618 --> 00:49:33,058 And I can't, you know, probably the best time to get into it. 531 00:49:33,278 --> 00:49:35,498 So I appreciate you coming on the show. 532 00:49:35,678 --> 00:49:39,638 Please, I'll leave it to you for any parting words that people know they can find you in abundant minds. 533 00:49:39,998 --> 00:49:44,618 I just want to echo that, that there's so much excitement being in this space. 534 00:49:45,158 --> 00:49:49,158 And miners are just, by their nature, the most bullish Bitcoiners. 535 00:49:49,278 --> 00:49:53,798 I mean, you're putting down infrastructure that's going to be there for probably a decade in most cases. 536 00:49:53,798 --> 00:50:01,618 and so it's very exciting to me to be able to have that sort of time horizon and that vehicle of 537 00:50:01,618 --> 00:50:07,958 converting my energy and converting other energy into this asset that is just world changing on 538 00:50:07,958 --> 00:50:13,638 every level and getting to participate and bring other people along for the ride is is one of the 539 00:50:13,638 --> 00:50:17,938 great joys of my life and I look forward to doing it for many more years I have really enjoyed getting 540 00:50:17,938 --> 00:50:23,898 a chance to come on and talk to you, Cedric. And for anybody who's curious about working with us, 541 00:50:24,098 --> 00:50:29,298 the website is probably the easiest way to get right on a call with one of our client advisors. 542 00:50:29,298 --> 00:50:35,798 That's abundantminds.com. And then if you want to keep up with me, X, my personal handle would be 543 00:50:35,798 --> 00:50:41,218 bow underscore Turner 21. And if you want to find abundant minds on any of the socials, 544 00:50:41,218 --> 00:50:45,438 as well as our YouTube channel, where a lot more long form mining education happens, 545 00:50:45,438 --> 00:50:48,018 Just search at Abundant Minds on all the platforms. 546 00:50:48,338 --> 00:50:48,458 Yeah. 547 00:50:48,558 --> 00:50:49,458 You know what I got? 548 00:50:49,578 --> 00:50:51,318 I mean, what's really cool is like growing up too. 549 00:50:51,438 --> 00:50:56,238 Like one of the things that was very alluring about real estate is that you get to build. 550 00:50:56,638 --> 00:50:57,038 Yes. 551 00:50:57,238 --> 00:51:01,098 Potentially, especially if you scale and you build a skyscraper or resort. 552 00:51:01,418 --> 00:51:10,678 That seems less exciting in today's world because I don't think there were the buyers there to buy really exciting things that are built to last forever. 553 00:51:11,338 --> 00:51:13,398 And, you know, there are different ways of looking at Bitcoin. 554 00:51:13,398 --> 00:51:18,758 you know it's like buying a piece of manhattan or something very early on and it's granite and 555 00:51:18,758 --> 00:51:24,438 but one way i look at it is uh even like comparing it to like baseball cards or collectibles it's 556 00:51:24,438 --> 00:51:29,518 scarce and it's rare but like every sat is like buying a piece of a michael jordan rookie card 557 00:51:29,518 --> 00:51:36,298 psa 10 you know and and sort of what you guys are doing with hosting it's sort of like you get to 558 00:51:36,298 --> 00:51:42,478 buy you know maybe the penthouse or the condo in the abundant mind skyscrapers that you guys are 559 00:51:42,478 --> 00:51:48,178 building in the digital world. And, you know, if you get yours now, like I was saying earlier in the 560 00:51:48,178 --> 00:51:52,738 show, it's like, whether you look at the rent roll or just having, you know, your nice piece of the 561 00:51:52,738 --> 00:51:58,378 pie in the sky, it'll just get more and more valuable in a space that is never going to 562 00:51:58,378 --> 00:52:04,418 deteriorate or give you sort of the headaches of real estate. Hopefully real estate gets so repriced 563 00:52:04,418 --> 00:52:10,958 and we can go back to doing amazing things in the physical world that will last forever. I think hard 564 00:52:10,958 --> 00:52:15,578 money helps bring that along. So we'll see where it goes. Thank you so much for coming on the show. 565 00:52:15,638 --> 00:52:17,298 This has been so dope. Thanks, Cedric. 566 00:52:40,958 --> 00:52:45,458 curious about Bitcoin. And let's keep growing this community together. Stay curious, 567 00:52:45,778 --> 00:52:48,338 keep stacking, and I'll catch you in the next one.