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Hey, hey, welcome to the Bitcoin Matrix.

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I'm your host, Cedric Youngelman.

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This episode is brought to you by MicroSeed, the Bitcoin self-custody maximalist.

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Stamp your 12 or 24-word seed phrase on titanium the size of a quarter.

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Make sure to use the code matrix for a discount at microseed.io.

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In this episode, I chat with Bram Canstein, host of the Bitcoin for Millennials podcast

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and a longtime internet tinkerer turned bitcoiner.

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We get into why millennials feel boxed in by fiat nihilism

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and how Bitcoin reframes retirement, time preference, and personal agency.

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We also explore cypherpunk roots versus Wall Street adoption,

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the upcoming digital euro, and why AI's energy future actually pairs with Bitcoin.

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mining. If you want a grounded generational lens on why one Bitcoin is one Bitcoin matters

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and what that means for your next decade, this episode is for you. If you want to get in touch

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with me, it's Cedric at the BitcoinMatrix.com, where we also have our new merch store. Head

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over there to get your Bitcoin Against the Machine, Cash is Trash and Bitcoin Matrix logo

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t-shirts. If you want to help support me and the show directly, I've added links for Venmo,

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PayPal, Bitcoin with Strike, and a PO box so you can send a check or money order.

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Value for value style. I really appreciate your past, current, and future contributions.

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They mean the world to me and help make the show sustainable. Also, if you could leave a

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five-star review and share your favorite Bitcoin Matrix episodes with your friends and family,

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this would really help us get the word out. And now, let's enter the Bitcoin Matrix.

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with Bram Canstein.

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What is real?

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How do you define real?

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You can't jump into cash.

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Cash is trash.

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What do you do?

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You get out.

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Bram Canstein is the host of the Bitcoin for Millennials podcast

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and an advisor to early writers.

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Bram, welcome to the Bitcoin Matrix podcast.

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How are you, sir?

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I'm really good, man.

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Like I just said, this was a long time coming, so I'm happy to be on.

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So I appreciate it.

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And I think first off, I just wanted to give you a shout out and also an instruction to people watching.

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Like, I think you deserve more subscribers.

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You have been a big inspiration on my journey and conversations that you've had.

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And it was actually Bob Burnett on one of your episodes that said something that actually triggered me into starting my own podcast.

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So I just wanted to share that with you before we start.

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And also share that with people listening that I think if you're into Bitcoin and you think it should exist in the world, you should do something about it.

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And I always say that the action is the inspiration.

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And you have been a part of my inspiration.

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So I just want to share that with you.

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I really appreciate that.

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I remember you reached out to me on August 28, 2023.

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Here.

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So that's how long we're waiting.

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So this is awesome.

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We got to actually meet in person for a few minutes in, I think it was Vegas.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Super fun.

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What did you think about that?

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That was my first time going to that conference,

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which was mind-boggling to see that many people.

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I've been to the Amsterdam conference.

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That is like 3,000, 4,000 people.

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I've been to Madeira.

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It's 2,000 people.

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That's already a lot of people, right?

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That's really when I saw, hey, there's people in real life

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that are also interested in this, right?

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It's not just people on the internet.

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But Vegas is insane just to see that amount of people

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that are all into Bitcoin and wanting to learn.

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And yeah, it was fun meeting.

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Oh my gosh, that was a, I mean, what is that?

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25,000 people inside of Vegas.

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So it's, you know, a huge,

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the biggest Bitcoin conference in the world on steroids

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because you're in the biggest fiat city in the world.

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Yeah, I could, this was really the meme,

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you know, the European mind cannot comprehend.

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That was literally me.

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I think on day three, I had to, at like 1 p.m., I had to go to my hotel room, just lay in my bed for two hours.

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Like my mind couldn't process all the insanity anymore.

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But yeah, no, I think it's just cool to see where Bitcoin came from, right?

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Like it was first very obscure.

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Now it's this, I don't even know how to call it in Vegas.

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I think it's a strange place to do this, but it's actually also very funny that it's like in a peak fiat place, right?

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So there's some humor in that as well.

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But again, like I said, it's just very cool to see a lot of people that are into Bitcoin.

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And I think that's also something that I talk about a lot.

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Like, this is such a big idea, man.

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Like, this is actually what Bob Burnett said in that conversation with you that inspired me so much.

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like yeah this is this is the biggest thing that you can spend your time on and when he said that

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i just realized yeah i'm gonna think about this for the rest of my life it's not that like in five

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years i'm gonna be like well that that was it like i'm not gonna pay attention anymore because i think

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this is something that will uh deserve my attention for the rest of my life right so why why not try

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to to contribute to that and i think uh that is also what you know i i really think people before

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me that also had a podcast like you and before like that is what we're doing like every year or

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every few so months there's someone that is like okay i'm gonna i'm gonna do something creatively

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i'm gonna try to reach people with my own voice and my own thoughts around bitcoin and i think

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that it's just so incredibly cool to see that that is growing and it's also very rewarding to be

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a little part of that right like walking around on the conference i had so many people that were

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like hey listen to your stuff and i'm like yeah i'm just a dude talking about bitcoin right like

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it's just it's just very rewarding and fun that it helps people along the way and that's also why

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i think it's just so important to to for me to give that back to you uh because i know uh

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what an inspiration that could be to and motivation to just continue to do that right so um

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yeah super cool to see where where we're at now yeah for sure uh i mean i think we just need more

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and more voices especially as uh the asset class gets bigger and bigger and people like hearing

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from voices they relate to so uh i want to talk about you know maybe where you came from

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what was your background before bitcoin and what was your rabbit hole story yeah so i've always been

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i just think like an internet geek like i think we got internet when i was like 12 13

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and uh yeah just started computering i always called it computering and like being on the

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internet trying to figure out what was uh yeah go going on like how how can i use this i don't know

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i just always had a natural interest in that just just curious about that and i think only later i

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learned what i really enjoyed is basically finding new ideas like what are people spending their time

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on right like uh what are they inspired to do and and and and then especially in like the digital

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realm right so yeah what kind of product services startups you know uh apps what are people building

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and so i remember when being like 15 16 um i was very deep into napster right like just uh

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downloading songs i had like these towers with with cd burners and uh you know these empty cases

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and like stickers for on the CDs.

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And I like made my own mixtapes

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and I sold them in school.

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And then from the money I earned,

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we troupe parties and just like,

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just trying to be a little entrepreneurial

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with some sort of internet knowledge, right?

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I felt like I had an edge

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because no one else was creating the mixtapes.

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I had a friend who did like illegal games

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and selling that like the first GTA

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and stuff like that.

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And we were just always like messing around

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on the internet and I think that never really went away I think I'm still doing that um and and

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it's just really fun to see not only how the internet grew but how I have a similar feeling

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with bitcoin like how big it became like it felt fun in the beginning like it's fun it's nice it's

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something quirky new whatever and I'm just fucking around and then in some way shape or form it became

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super big right and i think i see a lot of similarities with that because also yeah when

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you were online in in the beginning there there wasn't really that much also like information

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right and that just grew and grew and grew and what we just mentioned like with the podcast i

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think and that's then maybe the jump to my bitcoin story like i found bitcoin in 2014 i had a friend

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send me a video uh where just like an animation video that that explained bitcoin just factually

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like technically and uh was sent to me by a friend who said like hey i think this is this

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is something for you and i instantly saw it in a sense that i i thought okay this is a money for

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for the internet that makes a lot of sense you know i always saw the internet as kind of like

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the the democratization of information like i i could read you know stuff that someone on the

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other side of the world was writing like i could i could get their thoughts and that was

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really, of course, like a profound shift from just reading a book, right, where you can obviously also

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read the thoughts of someone else. But this was kind of instant. So I remember like back in that

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time, so let's say 2006, 2005, whatever, like I was already following people that were kind of like

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blogging or writing on a website before I think it was called a blog even. And yeah, I always

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thought there was something magical, like it felt like you could learn more than whatever was

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provided to you in school right uh that that that was very confining you just had a certain amount

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of books etc like i i sound like an old person but this is not that long ago right and so he sent me

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that video i was like okay this is a money for the internet and back then uh yeah you know like i was

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a student i thought okay i saw these charts number go up obviously i thought okay this is going to

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make me super rich so i i day traded for like three months with two friends and i think that

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After three months, I remember laying in bed one day and just hallucinating, like seeing the charts in the room.

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And I was like, well, okay.

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Trading is not for me.

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I'm too emotional to be a trader.

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So I just held on to it and also looked at a lot of other things, right?

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Like I think in 2014, I even did a presentation on Litecoin at a big bank, for example.

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And I thought Litecoin was the better Bitcoin, right?

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And just, you know, from there on, just starting to follow it.

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And I think at the same time, so 2014, 14, I got out of college and I started working

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in, yeah, like the internet startup space, basically.

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So my background for the last 10, 12 years has been in working with and also building

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like digital products, startups.

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And so I've seen a lot of ideas and I tried out a lot of digital products.

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So eventually, I think I kind of created this taste for, yeah, understanding how a digital product, you know, should work, how to make it a business, go to market, like all these things.

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And that's been kind of the central thing that central topic that I followed.

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And so I started at like an investment type of company.

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I worked at a big media firm.

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Like I said, I worked at a bank, two banks.

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Actually, I did a lot of my own ideas, failed at a lot, sold a few along the way.

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Just, yeah, again, messing around on the internet.

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And along the way, there was always this Bitcoin thing.

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And at one point, and this is always what I share, like, you know, I bought between 100 and 300, but I sold everything at 4,000.

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And that was amazing, obviously.

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Felt amazing because I was still a student.

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Looking back, I just didn't get it, you know.

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So I was happy at the time, but obviously there was a bad decision because I now have way, way less than before.

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But I also think that eventually it's part of it, right?

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Like when you fumble, you get humble, basically.

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So when like Ethereum came out, I found that at like, I don't know, $7, like dove into that, the whole ICO stuff, tried out NFTs, all these things.

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But along the way, this Bitcoin thing still never really left, right?

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And so I do think I got distracted with all the tech stuff and, like I said, the NFT, crypto, whatever stuff.

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And then, yeah, just slowly realizing that after I paid attention to crypto for two, two and a half years,

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that I didn't really see anything being built.

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So, yeah, there was a lot of stuff going on, you know, this NFT stuff, whatever.

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You could say there is some sort of value, like entertainment, whatnot, trade.

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but I didn't see any products being built.

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And that was always the premise of crypto, right?

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Like this is DeFi, new world, blah, blah, blah.

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And then I don't really know what triggered me,

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but I just slowly got back into Bitcoin.

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Well, one trigger was when I worked at this bank,

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this was 2017, 18, I was into Bitcoin.

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I had a mortgage.

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I was 30 and I thought like okay I know what I'm doing and then I had a colleague tell me did you

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know that the money in the bank is not yours and I was like what are you talking about and and then

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we had lunch this was during a lunch and we talked for an hour and he explained like fractional

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reserve banking and all that stuff and I just remember walking away from that conversation

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feeling like an idiot like okay I'm I think I'm doing all these things but basically I have no clue

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And I think that was a big trigger for me to slowly but surely and definitely over the last five years, like going super deep on like the economical and financial like dimensions of Bitcoin, which only then showed me, you know, the reason of existence for Bitcoin, which when you like the internet or when you like technology, and this is also what I think is so funny, like from people in Silicon Valley, for example, that still don't understand Bitcoin.

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Like that is just one angle or one dimension of probably 10 to 12, 15 dimensions, perhaps that you can look at Bitcoin, basically, right?

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And I think that is also what I saw in my career.

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Like you can build whatever you want with the current technology, but it's about what you build.

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And in order to figure out what you should build you should understand the problem or the need that you fulfilling for the people that you building your product or service for right and so it was actually quite funny that I knew how that mechanism worked but only until I kind of like dove into the economic and financial dimensions of Bitcoin

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It was when I really saw that this is a very special thing, right?

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Like the birth of a new money, the monetization of a new money,

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The attempt to change the technology we use for money on a global scale is probably the biggest endeavor for any technology, right?

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And that's also why you should have this long time frame because it's going to take a long time before more people see it, right?

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Especially because the whole enchantment of fiat money is also extremely strong and people don't want to see that they have a problem, let alone see a possible solution.

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And so that was one of my tricks to just go down deeper.

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And then, yeah, slowly but surely traded all of the crypto nonsense stuff I had just basically back into Bitcoin.

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And, you know, started watching podcasts, reading books.

216
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And at one moment when I realized, okay, I can basically just move everything I own from a system that is not designed for me that I could never truly understand.

217
00:16:51,588 --> 00:16:54,688
where I'm never really even the true owner

218
00:16:54,688 --> 00:16:57,028
of what I think I own, what is my wealth.

219
00:16:57,708 --> 00:17:00,188
Yeah, I can just move that to a system

220
00:17:00,188 --> 00:17:01,988
that is objectively better,

221
00:17:02,088 --> 00:17:03,928
that I can actually verify for myself

222
00:17:03,928 --> 00:17:06,668
of which all the information is publicly available.

223
00:17:07,608 --> 00:17:11,728
And yeah, have a seat in the stadium

224
00:17:11,728 --> 00:17:15,468
to watch this monetization of this new money

225
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basically unfold.

226
00:17:16,968 --> 00:17:20,588
And when I saw someone tweeting that,

227
00:17:20,588 --> 00:17:22,488
like if you think Bitcoin is going to be something

228
00:17:22,488 --> 00:17:23,768
you should have a seat in the stadium

229
00:17:23,768 --> 00:17:24,468
I was like yeah

230
00:17:24,468 --> 00:17:27,028
that's what I actually should do

231
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and that's basically when I moved

232
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and I think from there on

233
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I just got obsessed with it

234
00:17:33,588 --> 00:17:34,088
basically

235
00:17:34,088 --> 00:17:36,888
I wake up and I think about Bitcoin

236
00:17:36,888 --> 00:17:38,988
and I talk about Bitcoin every day

237
00:17:38,988 --> 00:17:39,508
and then

238
00:17:39,508 --> 00:17:42,008
two years ago

239
00:17:42,008 --> 00:17:45,688
watching your podcast with Bob

240
00:17:45,688 --> 00:17:46,588
Bob saying that

241
00:17:46,588 --> 00:17:48,868
I was like yeah I want to contribute to this thing

242
00:17:48,868 --> 00:17:50,588
But what should I do?

243
00:17:50,948 --> 00:17:57,688
And I think in the same time period, I had different calls with people I knew from the internet that were into Bitcoin.

244
00:17:57,688 --> 00:18:03,268
And I had some moments where I was like, oh, yeah, it would have been fun to just record this and share this with other people.

245
00:18:04,008 --> 00:18:10,928
And in that same period, I had conversations with generational peers, you know, about money, Bitcoin and stuff like that.

246
00:18:10,988 --> 00:18:12,828
And they weren't seeing it.

247
00:18:13,208 --> 00:18:17,508
Like smart people that I admired weren't seeing it.

248
00:18:17,508 --> 00:18:20,208
And I was like, yeah, well, that is so crazy, right?

249
00:18:20,208 --> 00:18:21,948
Because it's bringing me so much.

250
00:18:21,948 --> 00:18:26,228
And I've also been a lurker quite some time on like the millennials subreddit.

251
00:18:26,988 --> 00:18:29,668
And like all the things that those people described,

252
00:18:29,808 --> 00:18:31,868
they're all the nihilism, like not having children,

253
00:18:32,028 --> 00:18:33,528
all the struggles and all these things.

254
00:18:33,528 --> 00:18:35,188
I always felt like I don't have that.

255
00:18:35,588 --> 00:18:38,908
And I think a big attribute to that is,

256
00:18:39,428 --> 00:18:43,668
or a big part of that can be attributed to adopting Bitcoin

257
00:18:43,668 --> 00:18:48,248
and having a certain positivity towards the future.

258
00:18:48,448 --> 00:18:50,488
And so that's kind of like the moment where I decided,

259
00:18:50,668 --> 00:18:54,508
okay, I'm not going to be a lurker or a consumer anymore.

260
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I really want to try to contribute to this thing.

261
00:18:57,508 --> 00:19:00,668
And then, yeah, that's kind of how the podcast started.

262
00:19:00,928 --> 00:19:02,648
And that kind of amplified my obsession

263
00:19:02,648 --> 00:19:05,868
because now I cannot really stop thinking and talking about it.

264
00:19:06,308 --> 00:19:07,848
Yeah, so let's get into it.

265
00:19:08,548 --> 00:19:10,248
I want to talk about millennials

266
00:19:10,248 --> 00:19:13,588
or just generational kind of perspective on Bitcoin.

267
00:19:13,668 --> 00:19:18,828
let's maybe talk about why are the millennials so nihilistic right now and obviously we're

268
00:19:18,828 --> 00:19:28,108
painting in broad strokes but i think from what i now see it's that you know our our parents

269
00:19:28,108 --> 00:19:34,908
told us a certain story because that was their story right like how they came of age and went

270
00:19:34,908 --> 00:19:42,348
through life and um you know got a job and a house and a mortgage and and a relationship and a family

271
00:19:42,348 --> 00:19:50,068
etc and then you know like that that path that has been sold to us i just say sold with with with

272
00:19:50,068 --> 00:19:57,508
air quotes yeah that doesn't really exist anymore right and so people are running into that and not

273
00:19:57,508 --> 00:20:05,848
really understanding why that isn't possible anymore and i think that is probably one of the

274
00:20:05,848 --> 00:20:12,688
biggest crimes in a sense that yeah people are now very confused actually right like you see a lot

275
00:20:12,688 --> 00:20:19,128
of people are pointing to a lot of other things outside of themselves from the greedy billionaires

276
00:20:19,128 --> 00:20:24,788
and the corporations or the systemic something something you know but they they don't understand

277
00:20:24,788 --> 00:20:29,308
that it's the money and i don't blame them right like i like i just shared like it took me a lot of

278
00:20:29,308 --> 00:20:35,388
time to figure out what the actual problem was and also realizing and accepting that i never really

279
00:20:35,388 --> 00:20:41,768
had a clue about money which i think especially in a western country if you grow up in a western

280
00:20:41,768 --> 00:20:46,288
country especially if you grew up as a millennial in a western country you probably grew up in the

281
00:20:46,288 --> 00:20:52,108
best time to ever grow up of any person that ever lived right and and there was always security and

282
00:20:52,108 --> 00:20:58,068
food and a roof over your head and entertainment and and and whatnot and it was probably yeah like

283
00:20:58,068 --> 00:21:05,288
I said, the best time to ever grow up. And so having that in your youth, not never even having

284
00:21:05,288 --> 00:21:09,968
to think about money, thinking that you have a certain path that you can follow in your life and

285
00:21:09,968 --> 00:21:15,388
then end up happy to then realize probably in your late twenties, early thirties, mid thirties, that

286
00:21:15,388 --> 00:21:22,488
that isn't really possible anymore. I think is why I would like to focus on millennials,

287
00:21:22,488 --> 00:21:27,268
because especially in this age range, like let's say late twenties to late, late thirties, for

288
00:21:27,268 --> 00:21:32,448
example this is where yeah people make the big life decisions right like where to settle down

289
00:21:32,448 --> 00:21:38,268
or to even settle down or to have kids or do a certain thing in their career like these are

290
00:21:38,268 --> 00:21:45,008
i think quite some uh yeah pivotal years or at least years for for pivotal decisions for people

291
00:21:45,008 --> 00:21:53,048
and uh that is something that i think is exciting but also brings a certain amount of

292
00:21:53,048 --> 00:21:58,548
self-awareness responsibility perhaps a bit anxiety about like am i making the right decision

293
00:21:58,548 --> 00:22:07,568
right and when i read safe deans the bitcoin standard right or when he talks about

294
00:22:07,568 --> 00:22:15,668
low and high time preference and talking about having uh you know everyone has a certain natural

295
00:22:15,668 --> 00:22:19,808
natural anxiety in their lives because you never really know when you're going to die right so the

296
00:22:19,808 --> 00:22:30,308
future is uncertain anyway. But the fact that we have a higher uncertainty than what we basically

297
00:22:30,308 --> 00:22:36,668
naturally need, I would say, comes from the fact that the money is losing its value continuously.

298
00:22:36,668 --> 00:22:41,968
So it becomes harder and harder to actually plan for the future, to actually make those

299
00:22:41,968 --> 00:22:49,828
you know pivotal decisions in your life and i think when i saw that for my for myself at least

300
00:22:49,828 --> 00:22:55,828
i just realized yeah you cannot really blame people that they are angry or confused or

301
00:22:55,828 --> 00:23:00,408
disappointed with not being able to follow a certain path that they that they thought they

302
00:23:00,408 --> 00:23:07,828
um would follow but it's it's it's way deeper and way more yeah fundamental than than

303
00:23:07,828 --> 00:23:16,248
everyone basically realizes and uh i think that's kind of why i want to focus on my

304
00:23:16,248 --> 00:23:20,568
generational peers especially because you know like in the previous generations you know the

305
00:23:20,568 --> 00:23:26,908
boomers had real estate and and gen x had uh the the index funds the smp and stuff like that

306
00:23:26,908 --> 00:23:34,668
i think every generation has a certain opportunity to um get ahead or or secure their future in a

307
00:23:34,668 --> 00:23:41,028
certain way and i think i think bitcoin is that for our generation especially also because we live

308
00:23:41,028 --> 00:23:49,108
through yeah this uh this analog to digital age right like we are of course gen x had had that too

309
00:23:49,108 --> 00:23:54,428
partially uh but yeah we are kind of like the last ones that that actually went fully through that and

310
00:23:54,428 --> 00:24:00,268
and so i think we're actually primed to understand bitcoin right like the connection of bitcoins being

311
00:24:00,268 --> 00:24:06,268
something being digital um but having a connection to the physical world through proof of work and

312
00:24:06,268 --> 00:24:14,188
stuff um yeah just i just think this is the the asset that that we can use to secure uh our future

313
00:24:14,188 --> 00:24:20,348
or at least prepare for the future have a certain lifeboat or something that that can help us lower

314
00:24:20,348 --> 00:24:27,148
our uncertainty towards the future that uh is being um yeah heightened by uh by the fact that

315
00:24:27,148 --> 00:24:29,128
that fiat money loses its value all the time.

316
00:24:29,268 --> 00:24:33,828
And so that's why, yeah, I just hope to reach more millennials

317
00:24:33,828 --> 00:24:35,928
and tell them about the problem they have

318
00:24:35,928 --> 00:24:38,148
that they don't really realize.

319
00:24:38,268 --> 00:24:39,548
And I think maybe to add to that,

320
00:24:39,548 --> 00:24:43,848
my mother is almost retiring within like a year.

321
00:24:44,148 --> 00:24:46,728
And she told me that she's kind of unsure

322
00:24:46,728 --> 00:24:49,348
if the money is going to be there of her retirement.

323
00:24:49,708 --> 00:24:54,528
And that, I think, is just very saddening

324
00:24:54,528 --> 00:24:57,728
that that is where she's at with her hat, right?

325
00:24:57,788 --> 00:25:01,388
Like the fact that she worked for like 40, 45 years.

326
00:25:01,388 --> 00:25:04,748
And then when you're finishing up that career

327
00:25:04,748 --> 00:25:06,908
or your working years

328
00:25:06,908 --> 00:25:10,508
that you're not really sure if you have your retirement.

329
00:25:10,508 --> 00:25:13,848
But the fact that she's feeling that actually assured me

330
00:25:13,848 --> 00:25:17,268
that there's definitely not going to be a retirement for me, right?

331
00:25:17,288 --> 00:25:19,228
And I think that's also an extra motivation

332
00:25:19,228 --> 00:25:21,948
to tell other people about that.

333
00:25:21,948 --> 00:25:34,888
I mean, last week I sat down with a friend who got a letter from like his pension fund that his employer, you know, puts money in or that he contributes to.

334
00:25:35,308 --> 00:25:39,688
So he works in tech, makes like 120,000 euros a year or something.

335
00:25:39,848 --> 00:25:41,848
And then he got this letter with this overview.

336
00:25:42,048 --> 00:25:43,768
And then it said, so it's 33.

337
00:25:43,768 --> 00:25:51,028
it said if you work for this company until your retirement age which is which is like 65 66 so

338
00:25:51,028 --> 00:26:00,868
32 33 years you're going to get like 37 000 euros per year or something that's your retirement and

339
00:26:00,868 --> 00:26:05,908
then we looked at each other like 37 000 euros a year like who can live on 37 000 euros a year in

340
00:26:05,908 --> 00:26:13,028
my country that's going to be very difficult let alone in 32 or 33 years right and so um

341
00:26:13,028 --> 00:26:18,148
seeing that I thought it was interesting that this is actually staring people in the face

342
00:26:18,148 --> 00:26:26,728
like this future uncertainty is actually communicated to you but no one really understands

343
00:26:26,728 --> 00:26:32,808
what that uh what that means so I think not only mitigating the debasement of money

344
00:26:32,808 --> 00:26:40,668
today right or every month or every year currently uh is is a problem but thinking about how you're

345
00:26:40,668 --> 00:26:44,868
going to survive basically in 30 years is also a problem.

346
00:26:45,168 --> 00:26:47,408
Like your parents never thought about that.

347
00:26:47,768 --> 00:26:52,048
Like the millennial parents never thought about that because they had that kind of like

348
00:26:52,048 --> 00:26:54,228
expectation of having a pension.

349
00:26:54,368 --> 00:26:58,888
It was also, of course, kind of very early in that entire system.

350
00:26:58,888 --> 00:27:01,708
So they had some sort of security towards the future.

351
00:27:01,788 --> 00:27:04,588
But I think for millennials, that is really gone.

352
00:27:05,668 --> 00:27:07,468
But people are super unaware of it.

353
00:27:08,008 --> 00:27:08,168
Yeah.

354
00:27:08,168 --> 00:27:12,128
I mean, it's really, you know, it's interesting when you use Bitcoin as a unit of account.

355
00:27:12,368 --> 00:27:18,028
I've had peers who made decisions where, you know, their pension or, you know, their 401k

356
00:27:18,028 --> 00:27:21,148
sort of representative has offered to buy them out.

357
00:27:21,488 --> 00:27:29,188
You know, instead of let's paying you $36,000 a year in 15 years, we'll give you $150,000

358
00:27:29,188 --> 00:27:29,628
now.

359
00:27:30,748 --> 00:27:35,608
And if you think in Bitcoin math, you say, wow, I can get that money now.

360
00:27:35,608 --> 00:27:39,728
and you think about the properties of taking ownership of your money

361
00:27:39,728 --> 00:27:41,628
and being able to use it if there's an emergency,

362
00:27:42,208 --> 00:27:44,028
the present value is $150K.

363
00:27:44,188 --> 00:27:47,688
But you say, you know, someone maybe who's doing different calculus

364
00:27:47,688 --> 00:27:49,468
says, well, I don't know how long I'm going to live.

365
00:27:49,848 --> 00:27:52,648
And if I take the money now, I might spend it.

366
00:27:53,408 --> 00:27:54,488
I might not have it.

367
00:27:54,508 --> 00:27:55,668
I might not invest it well.

368
00:27:55,728 --> 00:27:56,488
I might speculate.

369
00:27:56,688 --> 00:27:57,508
It might be gone.

370
00:27:58,028 --> 00:28:03,588
But, you know, 15, 20 years from now, they'll give me, you know, $3,000 a month.

371
00:28:03,588 --> 00:28:08,388
and we start thinking about in terms of uh you know when you think about bitcoin math is also

372
00:28:08,388 --> 00:28:12,248
saying about inflation and what is that going to be worth in the future and and what are you gonna

373
00:28:12,248 --> 00:28:18,288
be able to buy with that and how long are you gonna have to like live beyond the you know if

374
00:28:18,288 --> 00:28:25,368
it starts kicking off 3 000 a month in 15 years well you're gonna have to live 30 years to break

375
00:28:25,368 --> 00:28:32,368
even yeah and you don't have any liquidity and then you you know you go through sort of like the

376
00:28:32,368 --> 00:28:36,108
last three years and you're like wow like you could have done a two three four five x

377
00:28:36,108 --> 00:28:42,968
with bitcoin you can even start thinking about that math and give yourself three thousand dollars

378
00:28:42,968 --> 00:28:48,768
a month now you know or you know whatever it might be but i wonder which generations you know are

379
00:28:48,768 --> 00:28:55,728
most poised to kind of be receptive to bitcoin and not receptive like and i'm you know generalizing

380
00:28:55,728 --> 00:29:01,928
here but like boomers you you think okay well they probably have the most wealth so they feel

381
00:29:01,928 --> 00:29:02,988
the problem least.

382
00:29:03,608 --> 00:29:06,128
They feel most prepared for

383
00:29:06,128 --> 00:29:08,128
or defensive to defend against

384
00:29:08,128 --> 00:29:08,768
these problems.

385
00:29:09,788 --> 00:29:12,168
And then I think of the Dave Colum sort of paradox

386
00:29:12,168 --> 00:29:13,768
where he's thinking, well,

387
00:29:14,608 --> 00:29:15,448
you know, to kind of

388
00:29:15,448 --> 00:29:18,068
get enough in to make a difference in my

389
00:29:18,068 --> 00:29:19,948
life would amount too much.

390
00:29:20,228 --> 00:29:21,848
Like, you know, the more you're worth,

391
00:29:21,948 --> 00:29:24,008
the more 1% to 10% actually

392
00:29:24,008 --> 00:29:24,728
is in dollars.

393
00:29:26,008 --> 00:29:28,008
Right? And like, wow, I would never put that much

394
00:29:28,008 --> 00:29:29,468
into something I don't understand.

395
00:29:29,948 --> 00:29:31,348
You can kind of see

396
00:29:31,348 --> 00:29:33,648
You see sort of the dilemma there.

397
00:29:34,928 --> 00:29:44,388
But they have the most opportunity to flick off some wealth and reallocate and not have it maybe be a big deal and take advantage of it.

398
00:29:44,868 --> 00:29:51,888
You think of young people, I would think the advantages they have, so they don't have maybe the wealth that the boomers could reallocate.

399
00:29:52,008 --> 00:29:56,968
But the advantages are, I think, too, is they tend to be more tech-friendly and early adopters.

400
00:29:56,968 --> 00:29:59,688
and I think Bitcoin is not

401
00:29:59,688 --> 00:30:03,428
a lot of the ways we look at what Bitcoin could do

402
00:30:03,428 --> 00:30:05,188
is a blend of tech and

403
00:30:05,188 --> 00:30:06,248
sort of

404
00:30:06,248 --> 00:30:09,688
cryptographic properties

405
00:30:09,688 --> 00:30:11,448
but you're not

406
00:30:11,448 --> 00:30:13,108
I don't think of it as tech

407
00:30:13,108 --> 00:30:15,828
but you can see how people might be really interested

408
00:30:15,828 --> 00:30:17,228
especially maybe even the broader thing

409
00:30:17,228 --> 00:30:19,908
crypto, move fast, break things, I can build things here

410
00:30:19,908 --> 00:30:21,168
it's new, it's interesting

411
00:30:21,168 --> 00:30:23,548
and then I think the other one they would think

412
00:30:23,548 --> 00:30:25,788
is sort of like young people

413
00:30:25,788 --> 00:30:28,168
and I would even include myself in this,

414
00:30:28,208 --> 00:30:29,308
but it's like a little bit of like,

415
00:30:29,908 --> 00:30:30,848
fuck you money.

416
00:30:30,848 --> 00:30:32,748
Not in the sense of like having a lot of money

417
00:30:32,748 --> 00:30:33,668
to say fuck you,

418
00:30:33,768 --> 00:30:34,228
but like,

419
00:30:34,748 --> 00:30:36,568
hey, I'm not going to be a part of your system.

420
00:30:36,708 --> 00:30:38,368
I don't like the way you do things.

421
00:30:38,808 --> 00:30:39,788
I hate banks.

422
00:30:40,028 --> 00:30:41,668
I don't want my money at the bank.

423
00:30:42,968 --> 00:30:43,428
You know,

424
00:30:43,468 --> 00:30:45,168
you would think a lot of people would think that's cool.

425
00:30:45,668 --> 00:30:45,948
So again,

426
00:30:45,988 --> 00:30:47,448
now you don't have to like put a lot of money.

427
00:30:47,588 --> 00:30:48,348
I don't have a lot of money.

428
00:30:48,428 --> 00:30:48,888
I have $500,

429
00:30:49,308 --> 00:30:51,108
but I don't want it at the fucking bank.

430
00:30:52,028 --> 00:30:52,908
And you know,

431
00:30:52,928 --> 00:30:53,268
it's really,

432
00:30:53,408 --> 00:30:53,988
it's just,

433
00:30:54,968 --> 00:30:55,608
it's interesting.

434
00:30:55,788 --> 00:31:01,628
uh what has been your impression to me you know are millennials really interested are they not

435
00:31:01,628 --> 00:31:20,116
interested it funny because i i i think eventually just when i look at my you know irl my real my real life i i do now have like some Bitcoiner friends but it not like the people that I knew before

436
00:31:20,116 --> 00:31:23,836
that I would consider friends or just close acquaintances

437
00:31:23,836 --> 00:31:28,456
that now see how my life is now that I've adopted Bitcoin.

438
00:31:28,456 --> 00:31:30,636
The fact that I'm spending already two years

439
00:31:30,636 --> 00:31:33,456
making a podcast twice a week on it

440
00:31:33,456 --> 00:31:37,216
and now for a year almost only doing that.

441
00:31:37,216 --> 00:31:42,576
it's not like they're calling and saying like hey can we just chat for 30 minutes like can you

442
00:31:42,576 --> 00:31:48,856
explain to me why you're spending so much time on this you know what i mean but they do share

443
00:31:48,856 --> 00:31:53,516
stuff online about everything they think is fucked up in the world and like all the problems and all

444
00:31:53,516 --> 00:31:57,216
like you know what i mean like pointing at all the shit that is stupid and should be fixed and

445
00:31:57,216 --> 00:32:03,556
uh whatever and uh at the same time not really looking for a solution while there is someone

446
00:32:03,556 --> 00:32:09,456
in their vicinity that isn't really bothered with all that stuff on a daily basis, right?

447
00:32:09,456 --> 00:32:19,136
So I find that interesting in a sense that even though the problems have become more

448
00:32:19,136 --> 00:32:24,516
apparent, I mean, if I just run to the supermarket to get some dinner in the evening and maybe

449
00:32:24,516 --> 00:32:29,036
some breakfast or whatever, because I didn't do like big groceries, yeah, that's easily

450
00:32:29,036 --> 00:32:39,156
like 50 euros which in in my mind should be like 20 or 19 right or whenever i go to a restaurant and

451
00:32:39,156 --> 00:32:45,156
i don't know a cheeseburger with fries or whatever like in my mind something like that or like a

452
00:32:45,156 --> 00:32:51,496
steak and fries whatever it's like 18 money units in my mind but i have to pay like 28 or 32 now

453
00:32:51,496 --> 00:33:00,236
right and so i cannot imagine that other people don't see that maybe i see that because i'm

454
00:33:00,236 --> 00:33:04,836
thinking about or like studying this stuff it could as well be some sort of bias there but i

455
00:33:04,836 --> 00:33:10,576
just cannot imagine that people don't feel at least that everything is getting more expensive

456
00:33:10,576 --> 00:33:18,216
everything is getting weirder um you know quality of products stuff is going down a lot of stuff is

457
00:33:18,216 --> 00:33:23,196
happening in society people aren't having children like stuff like that i i cannot imagine that people

458
00:33:23,196 --> 00:33:31,976
don't see that so but my conclusion is that just a lot of people don't so although i'm trying to

459
00:33:31,976 --> 00:33:36,576
reach more millennials and of course like i have people that that react or send me a message or

460
00:33:36,576 --> 00:33:42,516
whatever like i see i reach millennials in the analytics but just in my vicinity for example i

461
00:33:42,516 --> 00:33:48,336
don't really see it but at the other end i do think every generation has a problem i i i thought

462
00:33:48,336 --> 00:33:53,996
it was nice you you started there like i think the boomers um i've seen a few videos for example

463
00:33:53,996 --> 00:34:00,236
um now in california i also saw a video of someone in my country like uh but i think in in the u.s

464
00:34:00,236 --> 00:34:06,816
it's a bit different like but this guy bought a house paid it off like 40 years ago and he's 73

465
00:34:06,816 --> 00:34:09,976
and he still has to work like 30 hours a week

466
00:34:09,976 --> 00:34:12,336
to pay for the property tax, right?

467
00:34:12,796 --> 00:34:15,496
And so even those people that had a certain picture

468
00:34:15,496 --> 00:34:19,136
of retirement are not living that picture, right?

469
00:34:19,136 --> 00:34:23,396
And so I think if you are Gen X, so a little below that,

470
00:34:24,476 --> 00:34:28,296
you actually are on your way to retirement.

471
00:34:28,816 --> 00:34:31,196
And when you see all these things getting more expensive

472
00:34:31,196 --> 00:34:33,576
and yeah, maybe sometimes seeing an overview

473
00:34:33,576 --> 00:34:35,436
of what you're going to get, right?

474
00:34:35,436 --> 00:34:37,496
or supposedly going to get.

475
00:34:38,776 --> 00:34:44,736
I think actually Gen X would probably be faster aware of the problem

476
00:34:44,736 --> 00:34:48,556
because they're going to do that math that you mentioned

477
00:34:48,556 --> 00:34:53,956
to then realize, okay, I'm not really sure if I can make it.

478
00:34:54,036 --> 00:34:55,736
And I think they have the biggest predicament

479
00:34:55,736 --> 00:34:58,796
in a sense that they have the shortest time

480
00:34:58,796 --> 00:35:04,916
to actually try to fix it or prepare themselves for what's coming.

481
00:35:04,916 --> 00:35:24,316
And then for the millennials, like I said, I don't think there's any retirement for us. We are in the prime age in terms of career and earning money, although that is also increasingly becoming more difficult, right? Like just economy wise, but also, you know, with AI coming and stuff like that.

482
00:35:24,316 --> 00:35:32,416
So I do think that as a millennial, you conceptually have a lot of time, but you need to pay attention today.

483
00:35:32,536 --> 00:35:37,856
Like I think you have 10 years max to fix this for yourself.

484
00:35:38,856 --> 00:35:49,496
And then Gen Z, I'd say they have more time in life, but I think they unfortunately also have those 10 years, right?

485
00:35:49,496 --> 00:35:52,776
So imagine you are 16, 17, 18.

486
00:35:52,996 --> 00:36:00,016
Let's say 18, you're out of high school or like, you know, or let's say you're almost done with college, right?

487
00:36:00,196 --> 00:36:01,256
You're graduating.

488
00:36:01,396 --> 00:36:02,656
Let's say you're early 20s.

489
00:36:03,996 --> 00:36:12,616
Then most people graduated for the idea of having a certain job that is not going to exist in two or three years.

490
00:36:12,616 --> 00:36:16,756
That combined with, you know, just the whole economic outlook.

491
00:36:16,756 --> 00:36:19,416
and I think we talk a lot

492
00:36:19,416 --> 00:36:21,696
I mean I'm in Europe but we talk a lot about the US

493
00:36:21,696 --> 00:36:23,776
obviously because it's world reserve currency

494
00:36:23,776 --> 00:36:24,696
like I think if

495
00:36:24,696 --> 00:36:27,656
the US goes downhill

496
00:36:27,656 --> 00:36:29,716
the rest also goes downhill or at least there's

497
00:36:29,716 --> 00:36:31,816
a lot of chaos right but I think

498
00:36:31,816 --> 00:36:33,396
a lot of same stuff is happening

499
00:36:33,396 --> 00:36:34,356
in

500
00:36:34,356 --> 00:36:37,396
Europe in the sense that

501
00:36:37,396 --> 00:36:39,516
yeah the economic outlook is pretty

502
00:36:39,516 --> 00:36:41,156
grim and

503
00:36:41,156 --> 00:36:43,636
well or bad

504
00:36:43,636 --> 00:36:45,656
and I'm also very interested

505
00:36:45,656 --> 00:36:48,756
in seeing what AI is going to do with productivity, right?

506
00:36:48,756 --> 00:36:51,036
And just like the replacement of people, et cetera.

507
00:36:51,196 --> 00:36:54,936
And so when you are 18, 19, 20, early 20s, right?

508
00:36:55,476 --> 00:36:57,956
I think you have a very tough future ahead,

509
00:36:58,056 --> 00:37:00,316
but you have the same time window as the millennials

510
00:37:00,316 --> 00:37:03,456
who are perhaps a bit more experienced also

511
00:37:03,456 --> 00:37:05,876
within their career, work, life in general.

512
00:37:06,336 --> 00:37:08,336
Yeah, you have that similar timeframe, I think,

513
00:37:08,416 --> 00:37:10,396
like 20, 33, something like that.

514
00:37:10,796 --> 00:37:14,496
So I'd say eight years to try to fix that.

515
00:37:14,496 --> 00:37:31,756
So again, yeah, I just think that the problem is very urgent, but it's very hard to tell that to people, right? Like it's very hard to like saying, oh, you're not paying attention or you're doing something wrong, like is a bad pitch, right? Like that is not an inviting thing to say.

516
00:37:31,756 --> 00:37:39,076
And so I think explaining what is money, basically.

517
00:37:39,536 --> 00:37:41,996
So shout out to Breedlove also.

518
00:37:42,136 --> 00:37:43,976
I think also a big inspiration along the way.

519
00:37:44,276 --> 00:37:47,696
And someone who's educated me a lot with his conversations.

520
00:37:48,116 --> 00:37:51,656
Like, yeah, if you don't understand the money is broken,

521
00:37:51,776 --> 00:37:55,536
you never get to Bitcoin being a solution, if that makes sense.

522
00:37:55,636 --> 00:38:01,196
Like you do not pitch a solution, a somewhat technological solution, right?

523
00:38:01,196 --> 00:38:06,216
or a fairly technological solution to someone who doesn't even understand

524
00:38:06,216 --> 00:38:14,396
what the problem is in a more, I would say, philosophical way

525
00:38:14,396 --> 00:38:15,936
than just everything gets more expensive.

526
00:38:16,056 --> 00:38:17,176
Yeah, everything is more expensive.

527
00:38:17,336 --> 00:38:19,576
I'm getting fucked because my government or this person

528
00:38:19,576 --> 00:38:21,096
or the greedy government or whatever.

529
00:38:21,456 --> 00:38:25,236
Like then it's easy to point a finger,

530
00:38:25,236 --> 00:38:29,616
whereas I think if you understand it a little bit more philosophically,

531
00:38:29,616 --> 00:38:38,576
You can also, I think, grasp the concept of taking energy away from the current fiat system and moving to Bitcoin.

532
00:38:38,716 --> 00:38:45,716
Just you move to another money like millions of people have done before you, not only with Bitcoin, but also in history.

533
00:38:46,076 --> 00:38:49,936
Right. Like people moving from a bad to a better money is not something new.

534
00:38:50,036 --> 00:38:55,376
That is actually something that people are searching for constantly.

535
00:38:55,376 --> 00:39:12,796
Right. So I don't think that is hard to understand, but there needs to be some sort of trigger for people to actually be open to receiving the message that, yeah, in a nice way that they don't understand what money is like I didn't understand what money was.

536
00:39:12,796 --> 00:39:15,756
When it comes to Bitcoin, the rules are simple.

537
00:39:16,336 --> 00:39:20,716
Run your own node, hold your own keys, and protect your seed phrase.

538
00:39:21,336 --> 00:39:23,136
That's where MicroSeed comes in.

539
00:39:23,796 --> 00:39:28,376
Unlike bulky backups, MicroSeed is stamped onto a tiny steel washer.

540
00:39:29,076 --> 00:39:34,656
Fireproof, waterproof, and so small you can carry it anywhere or hide it in plain sight.

541
00:39:35,236 --> 00:39:40,336
Go to MicroSeed.io and use the code MATRIX for a discount on your order.

542
00:39:40,336 --> 00:39:47,316
yeah i think on the what is money part like that's a way to appeal to anybody on the philosophical

543
00:39:47,316 --> 00:39:55,396
bent but i think you know the broader i remember you know when i graduated college and uh you know

544
00:39:55,396 --> 00:40:02,576
i was on a pretty corporate america kind of funnel where you know we you know and uh i i moved from

545
00:40:02,576 --> 00:40:09,856
new york city where uh i was a big four financial statement auditor with wall street sort of clients

546
00:40:09,856 --> 00:40:15,796
and I moved to San Francisco and outside and where I had much more like technology kind of

547
00:40:15,796 --> 00:40:20,956
clients. But all my friends, just coincidentally, they had also moved to San Francisco. And that,

548
00:40:21,316 --> 00:40:26,316
and you know, you'd think, okay, wow, like this is getting, you know, I go out to dinner and it's

549
00:40:26,316 --> 00:40:31,336
X amount of political units and that's expensive. And, or I like that. I got to eliminate this.

550
00:40:31,596 --> 00:40:35,016
Maybe I won't get the coffee in the morning so I can afford that. And you're playing these games

551
00:40:35,016 --> 00:40:36,256
to get what you want in life.

552
00:40:36,356 --> 00:40:36,956
You pay rent.

553
00:40:37,136 --> 00:40:39,976
You lease or buy a car or whatever.

554
00:40:42,476 --> 00:40:47,836
But then you're like, you see a friend maybe who their boyfriend

555
00:40:47,836 --> 00:40:52,256
or girlfriend is an administrative assistant at Amazon.

556
00:40:53,156 --> 00:40:59,336
And they were early as an admin, and they retire.

557
00:41:00,356 --> 00:41:01,536
And you see sort of these things.

558
00:41:01,536 --> 00:41:04,876
And if you see something like that, they could say,

559
00:41:04,876 --> 00:41:07,496
hey, don't you want to live like me?

560
00:41:09,276 --> 00:41:13,836
I've been on this early startup program

561
00:41:13,836 --> 00:41:16,976
where I joined a startup and I made a lot of money.

562
00:41:17,156 --> 00:41:18,196
Don't you want to be like me?

563
00:41:18,236 --> 00:41:20,916
And you could say, well, I'm an accountant.

564
00:41:21,196 --> 00:41:23,876
I can't just, maybe I could be an accountant at a startup.

565
00:41:25,016 --> 00:41:26,896
And you start thinking, well, I have to work.

566
00:41:27,656 --> 00:41:30,356
You figure, well, they drew an ace, right?

567
00:41:30,356 --> 00:41:30,956
Lucky them.

568
00:41:31,716 --> 00:41:34,076
And I think a lot of people look at Bitcoiners that way.

569
00:41:34,876 --> 00:41:37,676
And they say, okay, well, they got lucky.

570
00:41:37,816 --> 00:41:41,036
They either got in early and they were able to speculate and capitalize.

571
00:41:41,516 --> 00:41:43,236
And that's good for them.

572
00:41:43,376 --> 00:41:44,596
I'm not in tech.

573
00:41:45,316 --> 00:41:47,516
I'm not going to move to San Francisco and try to be in a startup.

574
00:41:47,936 --> 00:41:52,276
I'm a plumber in Boston, and I'll just continue to build my business.

575
00:41:52,556 --> 00:41:57,356
Or I'm an accountant, and I have to work really hard to get a great raise.

576
00:41:57,636 --> 00:42:02,516
And maybe I will change companies so that I can get an even bigger raise.

577
00:42:02,516 --> 00:42:05,996
and I'll give up my seniority here in the cushy corner office,

578
00:42:06,076 --> 00:42:06,916
but I'll make more money.

579
00:42:06,996 --> 00:42:11,076
Or some people are like, I'll stay here so I can keep the corner office

580
00:42:11,076 --> 00:42:13,476
and the cushy schedule and work from home three days a week

581
00:42:13,476 --> 00:42:16,236
and I won't take the different job.

582
00:42:16,356 --> 00:42:18,356
And they're playing the game that way and they're saying,

583
00:42:18,356 --> 00:42:22,216
you got lucky, that worked out for you.

584
00:42:23,176 --> 00:42:27,676
And so maybe as a millennial, how do you think, I mean, here, Bitcoin,

585
00:42:28,076 --> 00:42:32,136
if you look at the price per unit that Bitcoin is generally quoted at,

586
00:42:32,136 --> 00:42:37,476
it's $120,000. Yeah. That's a lot. You know, young person's like, yeah, I've missed, you know,

587
00:42:37,476 --> 00:42:42,916
it sounds like a lot and in different currencies, it might even sound like more, uh, you know, so

588
00:42:42,916 --> 00:42:48,816
I would think that that's probably just a hard, even just entree to people.

589
00:42:49,356 --> 00:42:56,716
Yeah. No, I, I, I fully agree. I, um, I think the unit bias is something that is very strong

590
00:42:56,716 --> 00:42:58,036
and very difficult.

591
00:42:58,936 --> 00:43:00,696
But I like the example, right?

592
00:43:00,756 --> 00:43:01,856
Like people think,

593
00:43:02,856 --> 00:43:05,056
and I also thought Bitcoin is an investment,

594
00:43:05,296 --> 00:43:06,176
but it's not, right?

595
00:43:06,216 --> 00:43:08,176
Like it is not an investment.

596
00:43:08,336 --> 00:43:11,176
It's a way to store your wealth,

597
00:43:11,376 --> 00:43:15,056
just like gold is a way to store your wealth.

598
00:43:15,076 --> 00:43:16,816
You don't need one big gold bar.

599
00:43:16,896 --> 00:43:18,316
You can have gold coins, right?

600
00:43:18,336 --> 00:43:20,296
There's different quantities of gold

601
00:43:20,296 --> 00:43:24,896
and Bitcoin is nothing different in that sense.

602
00:43:24,896 --> 00:43:27,176
but I think that

603
00:43:27,176 --> 00:43:30,576
the fact that you cannot touch it

604
00:43:30,576 --> 00:43:32,796
right so I can buy and touch a gold

605
00:43:32,796 --> 00:43:34,936
coin I think for a lot of people that is something

606
00:43:34,936 --> 00:43:36,996
that they deem valuable

607
00:43:36,996 --> 00:43:38,756
right I think you can also

608
00:43:38,756 --> 00:43:40,596
argue that that is part of the

609
00:43:40,596 --> 00:43:42,656
fiat enchantment that only something

610
00:43:42,656 --> 00:43:44,716
you can touch has value right

611
00:43:44,716 --> 00:43:46,776
that is something that is

612
00:43:46,776 --> 00:43:47,456
used a lot

613
00:43:47,456 --> 00:43:50,276
so you cannot touch it

614
00:43:50,276 --> 00:43:52,516
it is digital it is somewhat

615
00:43:52,516 --> 00:43:54,676
technical to understand if you truly want

616
00:43:54,676 --> 00:44:02,316
to own it yourself right so there are some barriers but also that idea of it being an investment being

617
00:44:02,316 --> 00:44:09,056
too late like that is what i mean also with this nihilistic kind of like zero-sum game thinking

618
00:44:09,056 --> 00:44:16,676
that is also a symptom of fiat right like that is the whole way the fiat money system is set up

619
00:44:16,676 --> 00:44:23,896
there are opportunities for certain people along the way in whatever system that they operate to

620
00:44:23,896 --> 00:44:27,556
take advantage of their position,

621
00:44:28,636 --> 00:44:30,896
corrupt themselves to a degree,

622
00:44:31,076 --> 00:44:33,676
and then have an advantage over others in a system.

623
00:44:33,816 --> 00:44:39,316
And I think that is shown in different layers of society in general.

624
00:44:39,596 --> 00:44:42,536
Just this whole idea of I win, you lose,

625
00:44:42,616 --> 00:44:44,396
there is no cooperation, etc.

626
00:44:45,256 --> 00:44:49,316
Which, of course, we both know that in Bitcoin that has kind of flipped.

627
00:44:50,356 --> 00:44:52,896
Jeff Booth once said to me that Bitcoin is about

628
00:44:52,896 --> 00:45:00,576
cooperative competitiveness and i really like that you know like you you everyone consents to

629
00:45:00,576 --> 00:45:07,956
the rules of this protocol for money but they're still free market to create value and earn that

630
00:45:07,956 --> 00:45:15,356
money basically so together we make sure the the value of the money stays as promised as in one

631
00:45:15,356 --> 00:45:19,576
bitcoin is one bitcoin but then still yeah there's a free market where you basically battle

632
00:45:19,576 --> 00:45:23,876
over who can earn more than others.

633
00:45:24,036 --> 00:45:26,236
That is always something.

634
00:45:26,236 --> 00:45:31,116
But I think because the quality of fiat money is so bad,

635
00:45:31,176 --> 00:45:34,236
it actually incentivizes people to take advantage of other people.

636
00:45:34,476 --> 00:45:38,916
And so I think that's where that zero-sum thinking comes from.

637
00:45:39,116 --> 00:45:45,336
And I agree that that is something that makes people dismiss Bitcoin

638
00:45:45,336 --> 00:45:49,456
and yeah, get into stonks or shit coins

639
00:45:49,456 --> 00:45:53,496
or thinking it could be faster to get rich, right?

640
00:45:53,536 --> 00:45:57,756
Or solve their problems by actually taking more risk.

641
00:45:57,796 --> 00:45:59,616
And I think that's just an interesting thing

642
00:45:59,616 --> 00:46:00,716
to think about in general.

643
00:46:00,956 --> 00:46:03,756
Like, okay, I think I need to be quicker

644
00:46:03,756 --> 00:46:04,996
and take more risk.

645
00:46:04,996 --> 00:46:06,336
So I'm going to do something

646
00:46:06,336 --> 00:46:09,516
that I also don't know a lot about, right?

647
00:46:09,516 --> 00:46:10,816
Like a lot of people in crypto

648
00:46:10,816 --> 00:46:13,656
when I sometimes I click on these spaces on X, right?

649
00:46:13,656 --> 00:46:21,716
And just the level is very low, I have to say, you know, or people are super uncertain about what they're getting into and all these things, right?

650
00:46:21,776 --> 00:46:24,036
And I talked to American Hoddle yesterday.

651
00:46:24,196 --> 00:46:28,796
He said, like, if you come across a person in crypto who is very sure of himself, do not believe them.

652
00:46:28,936 --> 00:46:34,256
They are using the, you know, the people that are insecure for their own grift.

653
00:46:34,296 --> 00:46:37,576
And I agree, you know, like, it's a wild west.

654
00:46:37,656 --> 00:46:42,796
But it's attractive to people because they do feel somewhere that they need it, right?

655
00:46:42,796 --> 00:46:57,584
They need to have this one big shot to get out of debt or become rich or whatever they think they gonna end up And the paradox with Bitcoin I think is that you need to do the work upfront

656
00:46:57,964 --> 00:47:00,884
So there's some uncomfortable work, right?

657
00:47:00,884 --> 00:47:03,864
Like, for example, realizing that you have no clue about money

658
00:47:03,864 --> 00:47:08,404
and that you were just, you know, running around in this system

659
00:47:08,404 --> 00:47:10,844
and doing things for money and looking at your banking app,

660
00:47:10,924 --> 00:47:13,264
seeing a number and thinking that's actually a real thing

661
00:47:13,264 --> 00:47:14,684
and stuff like that, right?

662
00:47:14,684 --> 00:47:16,324
Just realizing you have no clue.

663
00:47:16,324 --> 00:47:22,344
okay uh why don't i have a clue well it's because other people lie to me or they never told to me

664
00:47:22,344 --> 00:47:28,984
what money is they never explained to me um what money is how it works that that money isn't equal

665
00:47:28,984 --> 00:47:34,684
for everyone and all these things but then after you get through that when you do the work so

666
00:47:34,684 --> 00:47:41,444
literally spend time to understand then do more like the internal internal work of being okay that

667
00:47:41,444 --> 00:47:48,424
that you were lied to, then you are rewarded because then you see something that a lot of

668
00:47:48,424 --> 00:47:55,504
other people don't. And I think that actually is what frees your mind, or at least in my journey,

669
00:47:55,824 --> 00:48:01,544
I'm not bothered with all the fiat money shit anymore because I chose another money, right?

670
00:48:01,604 --> 00:48:07,864
And so I think it is very interesting to experience that after doing that work,

671
00:48:07,864 --> 00:48:09,544
that mental freedom comes,

672
00:48:10,224 --> 00:48:12,384
which eventually that is what life is about,

673
00:48:12,524 --> 00:48:13,104
I think, right?

674
00:48:13,164 --> 00:48:15,604
So I always say this too,

675
00:48:15,704 --> 00:48:16,584
like it doesn't really matter

676
00:48:16,584 --> 00:48:18,124
how much Bitcoin you have,

677
00:48:18,964 --> 00:48:21,204
the more, the better perhaps,

678
00:48:21,744 --> 00:48:24,364
but I don't really think so actually.

679
00:48:24,484 --> 00:48:26,324
It's just about I adopted this better money.

680
00:48:26,404 --> 00:48:28,764
I cannot be taken advantage of anymore.

681
00:48:29,024 --> 00:48:30,904
I'm actually in control of my wealth,

682
00:48:30,904 --> 00:48:32,744
however much that is.

683
00:48:32,844 --> 00:48:37,064
And I decided to do that in my own conscious way.

684
00:48:37,064 --> 00:48:43,304
I decided to adopt a money that no one can fuck with, basically,

685
00:48:43,464 --> 00:48:47,744
that no one can take advantage of to my detriment, right?

686
00:48:47,784 --> 00:48:52,344
And just getting to that point, really understanding that you're thinking for yourself,

687
00:48:52,464 --> 00:48:56,544
that you're choosing for yourself, and perhaps, you know,

688
00:48:56,624 --> 00:49:00,004
for a lot of people also their children's future and et cetera.

689
00:49:00,604 --> 00:49:06,404
I think that is actually what Bitcoin, how Bitcoin basically empowers you,

690
00:49:06,404 --> 00:49:11,504
that you made that decision and that you can actually do that right and whatever question

691
00:49:11,504 --> 00:49:17,224
you have whatever thing you want to learn about bitcoin now as compared to 12 years ago there is

692
00:49:17,224 --> 00:49:23,604
an infinite amount of places that that you can learn about this right and i love these examples

693
00:49:23,604 --> 00:49:29,504
of bitcoin gets audited every 10 minutes and the fed has never been audited right and we know how

694
00:49:29,504 --> 00:49:34,424
many bitcoin are aware and all these things and at the bank of england they have a conference

695
00:49:34,424 --> 00:49:36,164
saying like, oh no, you should trust us.

696
00:49:36,224 --> 00:49:37,844
We still have the gold and stuff like that.

697
00:49:37,844 --> 00:49:39,964
When you start seeing that,

698
00:49:40,224 --> 00:49:42,404
I think that strengthens your conviction

699
00:49:42,404 --> 00:49:45,564
in the fact that the idea of Bitcoin,

700
00:49:46,244 --> 00:49:48,124
a trustless, global, decentralized,

701
00:49:48,744 --> 00:49:52,524
finite supply money,

702
00:49:52,984 --> 00:49:54,964
is just a great idea

703
00:49:54,964 --> 00:49:56,864
because you start seeing the nonsense

704
00:49:56,864 --> 00:50:00,684
of everything that fiat money creates

705
00:50:00,684 --> 00:50:02,224
or all this stuff that emanates

706
00:50:02,224 --> 00:50:03,764
from the quality of fiat money.

707
00:50:03,764 --> 00:50:05,164
it's only bad.

708
00:50:05,544 --> 00:50:07,464
And I think what emanates from Bitcoin

709
00:50:07,464 --> 00:50:10,364
is almost all beautiful, right?

710
00:50:10,404 --> 00:50:13,124
Like the whole idea of this cooperative competitiveness

711
00:50:13,124 --> 00:50:14,444
versus zero-sum game,

712
00:50:14,564 --> 00:50:16,364
like think about that for a future.

713
00:50:16,484 --> 00:50:19,264
Like what does a future look like run on Bitcoin?

714
00:50:19,504 --> 00:50:21,464
It's people working together,

715
00:50:21,584 --> 00:50:22,644
trying to figure it out.

716
00:50:22,704 --> 00:50:25,664
And I think that for me

717
00:50:25,664 --> 00:50:28,344
is kind of like what humanity should be about.

718
00:50:28,424 --> 00:50:30,044
Like no one really knows what's going on.

719
00:50:30,044 --> 00:50:32,404
So we'd rather work together

720
00:50:32,404 --> 00:50:34,704
to figure this out.

721
00:50:34,764 --> 00:50:36,944
And if there's a money that can actually help us get there,

722
00:50:36,984 --> 00:50:40,784
I think that is a solid choice to at least attempt

723
00:50:40,784 --> 00:50:44,284
to see if that can exist in the world.

724
00:50:44,704 --> 00:50:47,824
The two things I think about there is like Bitcoin Tina

725
00:50:47,824 --> 00:50:50,864
was what kind of brought this to my attention.

726
00:50:51,024 --> 00:50:55,044
Most people, they trade against each other

727
00:50:55,044 --> 00:50:57,564
and not so much against their future selves.

728
00:50:57,664 --> 00:50:59,844
In fact, they even trade against their prior selves a lot.

729
00:50:59,964 --> 00:51:01,524
Oh, I should have bought earlier.

730
00:51:01,524 --> 00:51:02,804
I'm not going to buy now.

731
00:51:03,044 --> 00:51:05,004
I can never get those gains back.

732
00:51:06,364 --> 00:51:21,344
And so you think, okay, I think the hardest thing to get to, you know, when you're trying to orange peel people is to kind of get across the spiritual qualities of Bitcoin or all these things you can get from Bitcoin that have nothing to do with sort of the gains.

733
00:51:22,524 --> 00:51:28,084
And probably in my own life, I've probably only had success probably showing people the gains.

734
00:51:28,084 --> 00:51:42,284
Very few people, it's one of the reasons I started the podcast, very few people wanted to talk about anything besides the gains or what, you know, even taking ownership or accountability for themselves or their money or their decisions or their wealth.

735
00:51:44,084 --> 00:51:47,584
And I think that's one of the probably the hardest things to get across.

736
00:51:47,584 --> 00:51:59,104
I mean, even just like you were saying, it's like you buy a small amount of sats, your first sats, you even maybe if you move those to cold storage, you feel a level of freedom, I think, that you've never felt before.

737
00:51:59,644 --> 00:52:08,424
And I think it lowers your time preference because if you understand Bitcoin, then you say one day these sats are going to be invaluable and I have to wait, right?

738
00:52:08,424 --> 00:52:17,364
At least, you know, if you don't have a lot, you can let time do the work for you with Bitcoin and just mathematically know that it's sort of a one-way street with inflation.

739
00:52:17,584 --> 00:52:20,664
but that's really hard to get across.

740
00:52:21,304 --> 00:52:21,664
I agree.

741
00:52:21,744 --> 00:52:23,964
But I think that's a symptom of the times, right?

742
00:52:23,964 --> 00:52:27,744
Like getting rich quick without really doing anything or something, right?

743
00:52:27,844 --> 00:52:32,044
Or like, let's say Bitcoin, you know,

744
00:52:32,484 --> 00:52:35,464
you get to a point where sort of you get like, you know, the,

745
00:52:35,464 --> 00:52:38,484
the violent minority, not the violent minority, but you know, the,

746
00:52:38,484 --> 00:52:42,064
the minority that kind of can steer the majority, right?

747
00:52:42,524 --> 00:52:47,164
I forget what Talia calls that, but so you get a strong enough minority and

748
00:52:47,164 --> 00:52:52,904
they kind of usher in that homogenous thing for everybody because it's just as ubiquitous now.

749
00:52:53,244 --> 00:53:00,164
And do we get to a point where people can skip even learning about Bitcoin, right?

750
00:53:00,244 --> 00:53:05,724
They just say everyone gets the benefits of it. Are we going to kind of cross a chasm where there

751
00:53:05,724 --> 00:53:11,024
are no big, like there are no, there's no podcast for the dollar, right? There might be podcasts

752
00:53:11,024 --> 00:53:14,764
about how to understand macro financial events.

753
00:53:15,084 --> 00:53:19,644
There might be a conference on how to use commercial deposits or bonds.

754
00:53:20,464 --> 00:53:23,784
Dollar-based instruments might have conferences and communities,

755
00:53:23,924 --> 00:53:27,344
but there's no conference or community that's just like,

756
00:53:27,404 --> 00:53:29,024
we love the U.S. dollar.

757
00:53:30,324 --> 00:53:31,744
Maybe outside of the federal government.

758
00:53:33,044 --> 00:53:33,524
Right?

759
00:53:33,704 --> 00:53:36,464
And so at some point it just becomes, even now,

760
00:53:36,604 --> 00:53:40,684
I don't know how strong the cypherpunk community is, right?

761
00:53:40,684 --> 00:53:45,564
like the internet just is not that doesn't mean the whole world is using maybe only 70 of the

762
00:53:45,564 --> 00:53:51,564
world is using it it's still getting adopted but there aren't like conferences about how great the

763
00:53:51,564 --> 00:53:56,444
internet is yeah that's a good example right there there are no internet conferences anymore so i

764
00:53:56,444 --> 00:54:03,084
think it's the question is kind of like when will when won't there be any bitcoin conferences uh

765
00:54:03,084 --> 00:54:05,004
anymore, right?

766
00:54:05,124 --> 00:54:07,444
Or does Bitcoin need

767
00:54:07,444 --> 00:54:09,224
sort of because Bitcoin

768
00:54:09,224 --> 00:54:11,344
is very different

769
00:54:11,344 --> 00:54:13,644
in the sense of self-custody

770
00:54:13,644 --> 00:54:14,784
and these new principles

771
00:54:14,784 --> 00:54:17,464
and probably threatening

772
00:54:17,464 --> 00:54:19,584
forces, maybe it needs constant

773
00:54:19,584 --> 00:54:21,644
education to

774
00:54:21,644 --> 00:54:23,644
keep the spark alive

775
00:54:23,644 --> 00:54:25,664
sort of thing because it is like an idea

776
00:54:25,664 --> 00:54:27,764
in that sense and humans

777
00:54:27,764 --> 00:54:29,604
are the project and

778
00:54:29,604 --> 00:54:31,504
need to keep it going. Maybe it's

779
00:54:31,504 --> 00:54:36,884
maybe it's completely opposite and it's like the moment it stops being talked about and learned

780
00:54:36,884 --> 00:54:43,184
about it it dies yeah and it's that kind of force i don't know i think that's an interesting thing

781
00:54:43,184 --> 00:54:50,744
to think about i think you might be right that we need to constantly educate people on bitcoin or at

782
00:54:50,744 --> 00:54:58,684
least in a philosophical way why a scarce money is the best money to adopt but then again yeah i

783
00:54:58,684 --> 00:55:04,464
kind of see Bitcoin as a mirror, right? Just because it exists and in a certain way, this can

784
00:55:04,464 --> 00:55:12,744
never really die anymore. You know, the entire concept or like how, I don't know who talked

785
00:55:12,744 --> 00:55:18,104
about that first, but you know, like it's like chess, it's like math, it's like the rules of

786
00:55:18,104 --> 00:55:22,504
English grammar, right? Like that is what the Bitcoin protocol is. So in that sense, it cannot

787
00:55:22,504 --> 00:55:28,984
ever really die. I think how it's manifested now, you know, with all the miners, all the

788
00:55:28,984 --> 00:55:34,864
no's, etc. Perhaps there can, something can happen where that goes down, you know, whatever. I don't

789
00:55:34,864 --> 00:55:40,784
even know what kind of event would make that happen. But just conceptually, the idea of a

790
00:55:40,784 --> 00:55:48,384
money that's designed like this can never really die. And I think we probably do need to explain

791
00:55:48,384 --> 00:55:54,284
people for a long amount of time why these properties are important because there will

792
00:55:54,284 --> 00:56:03,884
always be people that see an opportunity in yeah uh trying to have a money in in in the market or

793
00:56:03,884 --> 00:56:09,504
in a country that they can control i mean that is what you see with cbdcs or that that whole

794
00:56:09,504 --> 00:56:16,544
discussion for example in europe like i think the the whole cbdc project i think conceptually

795
00:56:16,544 --> 00:56:23,384
already existed but bitcoin accelerated that development or research or whatever they they're

796
00:56:23,384 --> 00:56:28,224
currently at i don't think it's gonna work out right but i think it's still in research phase

797
00:56:28,224 --> 00:56:33,684
i think it's gonna fail but it doesn't really matter bitcoin created an incentive for them to

798
00:56:33,684 --> 00:56:40,104
accelerate that and that tells me that bitcoin is a great idea right that the european central bank

799
00:56:40,104 --> 00:56:44,704
has reports saying bitcoin doesn't have any value and are just you know they're writing about it that

800
00:56:44,704 --> 00:56:45,504
That's fucking stupid.

801
00:56:46,084 --> 00:56:52,624
But why would you write about this random idea that was just released on a random internet forum 16 years ago?

802
00:56:52,624 --> 00:56:55,324
Because it doesn't mean anything, right?

803
00:56:55,444 --> 00:56:58,144
Like, do you know how many things are released on the internet every day?

804
00:56:58,364 --> 00:57:00,384
How many ideas are released on the internet every day?

805
00:57:00,424 --> 00:57:03,364
And this one, they decide to pay attention to, right?

806
00:57:03,404 --> 00:57:11,284
And so that shows me that there is something with Bitcoin that has merit, that gives it a place to exist in the world.

807
00:57:11,284 --> 00:57:24,204
And I think like people like us that I think are Bitcoin maxis in a sense that we would defend this or try to sit down with anyone to have a discussion about, you know, why do you think Bitcoin sucks?

808
00:57:24,364 --> 00:57:28,184
You know, tell me about your fantastic fiat money that you run.

809
00:57:28,184 --> 00:57:32,164
I think it should stay like that

810
00:57:32,164 --> 00:57:35,964
or people that don't have a natural curiosity

811
00:57:35,964 --> 00:57:38,584
to understand why they use something

812
00:57:38,584 --> 00:57:40,864
just like today with fiat money

813
00:57:40,864 --> 00:57:45,004
they will forget that there is a perfect money

814
00:57:45,004 --> 00:57:45,804
that's what I think

815
00:57:45,804 --> 00:57:50,744
or they will be bamboozled or impressed

816
00:57:50,744 --> 00:57:54,024
by someone with some sort of authority

817
00:57:54,024 --> 00:57:56,264
that will tell them that they have a better thing

818
00:57:56,264 --> 00:57:57,104
or whatever.

819
00:57:57,304 --> 00:58:00,784
And so I'm not sure what that's going to look like,

820
00:58:00,864 --> 00:58:03,424
but I do know that, like I said in the beginning,

821
00:58:03,424 --> 00:58:05,404
this is the biggest technological battle

822
00:58:05,404 --> 00:58:06,444
that could ever happen.

823
00:58:06,884 --> 00:58:10,064
And so this is going to take a lot of time, I think.

824
00:58:10,284 --> 00:58:13,684
And there's going to be a lot of literal battles.

825
00:58:13,684 --> 00:58:17,324
So imagine they brute force some sort of CBDC,

826
00:58:17,604 --> 00:58:18,704
whatever in Europe.

827
00:58:20,324 --> 00:58:23,484
Yeah, I think people will leave, for example, right?

828
00:58:23,544 --> 00:58:25,024
This will create something.

829
00:58:25,024 --> 00:58:30,444
Like Bitcoin started something that cannot really be stopped.

830
00:58:30,624 --> 00:58:35,024
So I'm not really sure what that future looks like, but I do know that it is a battle.

831
00:58:35,624 --> 00:58:38,404
I think Thur de Maester uses the word war, actually.

832
00:58:40,564 --> 00:58:44,304
I don't know if it's a war, but I do know it's a huge battle.

833
00:58:44,424 --> 00:58:48,924
Because if you have control over the most important technology in the world,

834
00:58:49,084 --> 00:58:54,184
and there's this thing that no one really owns, right, and cannot be destroyed,

835
00:58:54,184 --> 00:58:58,424
that is actually a threat to what you control,

836
00:58:58,524 --> 00:59:03,984
then obviously there's going to be some sort of friction there.

837
00:59:04,084 --> 00:59:07,384
So I think that education is extremely important.

838
00:59:10,264 --> 00:59:12,104
And yeah, I don't know.

839
00:59:12,244 --> 00:59:14,804
I think with Bitcoin, it's perhaps different than the internet.

840
00:59:15,404 --> 00:59:18,224
I think it's a fun thing to think about,

841
00:59:18,284 --> 00:59:20,284
but I think it probably never ends.

842
00:59:21,384 --> 00:59:22,884
You bring up like Napster.

843
00:59:23,324 --> 00:59:24,744
I mean, I grew up in the 90s.

844
00:59:24,924 --> 00:59:25,664
They were wild.

845
00:59:25,824 --> 00:59:31,284
I mean, you can go on America Online and go into chat rooms, talk to kids from other towns.

846
00:59:31,964 --> 00:59:33,524
But this is a good one.

847
00:59:33,824 --> 00:59:38,164
Did you know that at the top of Napster, there was 15 million users, one five.

848
00:59:38,724 --> 00:59:41,104
That is the max amount of people that use Napster.

849
00:59:42,184 --> 00:59:43,204
That's not a lot.

850
00:59:44,024 --> 00:59:49,244
Not a lot, but that's still probably about how many people own some Bitcoin.

851
00:59:50,244 --> 00:59:52,084
I agree, but that's what I'm saying.

852
00:59:52,084 --> 00:59:55,844
And that is small, but that's a good signal, right?

853
00:59:55,944 --> 00:59:56,724
It shows you that.

854
00:59:57,384 --> 00:59:57,564
Yeah.

855
00:59:57,824 --> 00:59:59,524
I mean, you can get any song.

856
00:59:59,704 --> 01:00:00,384
It's crazy.

857
01:00:00,624 --> 01:00:01,704
Why can't you use the phone?

858
01:00:01,784 --> 01:00:03,244
I'm downloading illegal music.

859
01:00:03,284 --> 01:00:04,304
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

860
01:00:04,504 --> 01:00:05,144
Leave me alone.

861
01:00:05,144 --> 01:00:07,784
I'm halfway through 97 songs here.

862
01:00:08,224 --> 01:00:08,424
Yeah.

863
01:00:08,904 --> 01:00:11,344
And you'd watch the bar go across.

864
01:00:11,744 --> 01:00:12,004
Yeah, yeah.

865
01:00:12,004 --> 01:00:15,984
And what was cool, though, is like you could do things outside the perv.

866
01:00:15,984 --> 01:00:22,584
you could use technology to make new connections and for good or for bad,

867
01:00:22,684 --> 01:00:27,344
meaning like you could enter a world, your, your parents, your, your,

868
01:00:27,604 --> 01:00:29,904
and I'm saying this for good or bad, it could not be,

869
01:00:30,044 --> 01:00:33,244
not know what you're doing. And I think about with like,

870
01:00:33,244 --> 01:00:39,204
like I set my kid up with a little Bitcoin wallet and,

871
01:00:39,204 --> 01:00:42,124
you know, it blows me away. I don't think he, you know,

872
01:00:42,184 --> 01:00:45,504
he has money that he can use in ways I would never be able to track now.

873
01:00:45,984 --> 01:00:52,544
yeah right i mean just think about like i try to think about like what what is better for a 15

874
01:00:52,544 --> 01:00:56,284
year old kid or 13 year old kid or it's like 17 year old kid wants to hide something from his

875
01:00:56,284 --> 01:00:59,744
parents doesn't even mean he's doing anything wrong he just doesn't want his parents to know

876
01:00:59,744 --> 01:01:05,684
maybe or something he or she but like uh cash or bitcoin and uh in a lot of ways bitcoin i could

877
01:01:05,684 --> 01:01:10,644
only think would be better uh especially as you know you want to stuff a bunch of money in your

878
01:01:10,644 --> 01:01:17,724
locker uh you just hide on your phone yeah but no i i think this is interesting because it's kind

879
01:01:17,724 --> 01:01:23,084
of where i wanted to go because you mentioned cypherpunks so i do think on one side we probably

880
01:01:23,084 --> 01:01:28,724
have to educate people for quite some amount of time just because the fiat enchantment is so

881
01:01:28,724 --> 01:01:34,484
strong but also with this example of napster or just cypherpunk in general those are very small

882
01:01:34,484 --> 01:01:42,164
groups and and for example napster is internet legacy right like that is a cultural legacy

883
01:01:42,164 --> 01:01:48,404
uh to a degree and i also think that the cypherpunk movement which is smaller

884
01:01:48,404 --> 01:02:00,104
already put their how do you say it like mark mark on the world by picking up uh by creating

885
01:02:00,104 --> 01:02:05,564
and picking up Bitcoin and maintaining it and talking about it and philosophizing about

886
01:02:05,564 --> 01:02:13,484
it and just bringing it further to a point where people less cypherpunk than them, less

887
01:02:13,484 --> 01:02:20,424
anarchist or computer nerd crazy or however you would want to define cypherpunks, could

888
01:02:20,424 --> 01:02:25,304
actually take it and run with it to the next person who is even less cypherpunk.

889
01:02:25,304 --> 01:02:26,304
Right?

890
01:02:26,304 --> 01:02:28,484
I mean, we see Bitcoin on Wall Street now.

891
01:02:28,484 --> 01:02:29,444
And I just think that is how...

892
01:02:29,472 --> 01:02:31,132
How it goes in general.

893
01:02:31,312 --> 01:02:37,932
I mean, the internet also, well, the internet started as a DOD project, right?

894
01:02:38,112 --> 01:02:39,792
Perhaps Bitcoin also started like that.

895
01:02:39,792 --> 01:02:56,332
But I think there's the same sequence from like ultra highly technical, you know, people with very big visions about where something could go with the use of technology to eventually, yeah, making it easier to use, more accessible, etc.

896
01:02:56,332 --> 01:03:01,252
that nowadays, I don't know if you can explain TCP IP to me.

897
01:03:01,412 --> 01:03:04,552
I couldn't explain it to you, but I'm still using it

898
01:03:04,552 --> 01:03:08,652
and I'm still a profoundly better internet user

899
01:03:08,652 --> 01:03:10,772
than probably the majority of people.

900
01:03:10,912 --> 01:03:14,732
So there's always levels in this understanding, I think,

901
01:03:14,772 --> 01:03:20,092
of the technology that people are using.

902
01:03:20,092 --> 01:03:22,192
But yeah, maybe you're right.

903
01:03:22,272 --> 01:03:24,172
Maybe it doesn't matter and this is how it goes.

904
01:03:24,292 --> 01:03:26,172
So I'm thinking through it while I'm talking,

905
01:03:26,172 --> 01:03:27,652
But maybe this is the same with Bitcoin.

906
01:03:27,872 --> 01:03:34,592
Like you said, maybe in 20 years, like your kid or your kid's kid, yeah, for them, Bitcoin is just logical.

907
01:03:34,712 --> 01:03:35,592
Yeah, of course it's Bitcoin.

908
01:03:35,712 --> 01:03:36,952
I don't want anything else.

909
01:03:37,232 --> 01:03:38,492
And maybe it's done then.

910
01:03:38,992 --> 01:03:42,052
So the education, I mean, then it's just permanent.

911
01:03:43,332 --> 01:03:47,672
Napster sort of spawned the way we listen to music now, I think, through streaming.

912
01:03:48,272 --> 01:03:51,072
It's just it's all subscription or different ways.

913
01:03:51,072 --> 01:03:59,312
And I think that in a lot of ways has degraded the music industry and not been great for artists.

914
01:04:00,392 --> 01:04:13,112
Maybe, you know, if you follow that, so maybe the, you know, the DOD started the internet and then, you know, whether they started Napster or like it just was created and out there and they squashed it and they got what they want.

915
01:04:13,112 --> 01:04:17,272
That kind of shows like, I think they want to move Bitcoin into ETFs.

916
01:04:17,372 --> 01:04:19,432
They don't want us to use it as an economy.

917
01:04:19,432 --> 01:04:23,732
and they'll build the greater crypto around it for the greater people.

918
01:04:24,212 --> 01:04:27,652
But you would think that the young people, and not just young people,

919
01:04:27,852 --> 01:04:32,072
but if you think about Napster, that was 15 million people

920
01:04:32,072 --> 01:04:33,332
willing to break the rules.

921
01:04:34,332 --> 01:04:34,552
Yes.

922
01:04:35,712 --> 01:04:36,072
Right?

923
01:04:36,452 --> 01:04:38,632
It was like, yeah, I want that music.

924
01:04:39,012 --> 01:04:40,712
I don't want to pay for it.

925
01:04:42,092 --> 01:04:45,672
Lawful or unlawful, I'm going to do it my way and break the rules

926
01:04:45,672 --> 01:04:47,192
and get what I want.

927
01:04:47,192 --> 01:04:52,352
And in a lot of ways, Bitcoin, I think there's similarities there that just aren't.

928
01:04:53,752 --> 01:04:58,872
I just don't feel like people are like into like Napster was cool in a way.

929
01:04:59,412 --> 01:04:59,592
Yeah.

930
01:04:59,592 --> 01:05:01,812
You know, it was like, oh, you got that on Napster.

931
01:05:01,892 --> 01:05:03,752
People weren't like hauled ass off to jail.

932
01:05:03,832 --> 01:05:04,552
They're like, all right, cool.

933
01:05:04,652 --> 01:05:05,192
That's cool.

934
01:05:05,232 --> 01:05:06,872
Can you get me my favorite album?

935
01:05:06,872 --> 01:05:13,872
I mean, this is what I never understood from at least the artists that went against Napster.

936
01:05:13,872 --> 01:05:21,352
is like you should be extremely grateful that a random 15 year old from a small town in the

937
01:05:21,352 --> 01:05:27,092
netherlands actually found your music and loved it how fucking sick is that and has no money thank

938
01:05:27,092 --> 01:05:33,872
you anyway right but and no yes so but it went from there is a centralized control so i i i do

939
01:05:33,872 --> 01:05:38,952
think napster or this music or like having technology to kind of like break up this

940
01:05:38,952 --> 01:05:41,712
centralized control, right?

941
01:05:41,792 --> 01:05:46,472
So that is Napster, spawning a certain reaction by said industry,

942
01:05:46,792 --> 01:05:52,332
which is eventually adopting streaming, you know, saying like, oh,

943
01:05:52,352 --> 01:05:56,092
this is better because we have the analytics and we can pay you and whatever.

944
01:05:56,272 --> 01:05:58,152
And then all the artists are like, oh yeah, of course,

945
01:05:58,152 --> 01:05:59,892
I want to go back to centralization.

946
01:05:59,892 --> 01:06:03,612
Then now we are at a point where, you know,

947
01:06:03,712 --> 01:06:07,272
the artists complain that Spotify is hijacking, you know,

948
01:06:07,272 --> 01:06:09,452
their music rights and the streams and whatever.

949
01:06:09,772 --> 01:06:13,152
And I saw Snoop Dogg had like a billion streams somewhere

950
01:06:13,152 --> 01:06:15,412
and got like 60K or something.

951
01:06:15,932 --> 01:06:18,352
That doesn't make sense for me.

952
01:06:18,412 --> 01:06:18,912
It doesn't make sense.

953
01:06:19,412 --> 01:06:22,692
And now you're going back to, oh, look, I can be my own label.

954
01:06:22,812 --> 01:06:23,732
I can be my own artist.

955
01:06:23,832 --> 01:06:25,232
I can be an independent distributor.

956
01:06:25,952 --> 01:06:30,532
So it's kind of like centralized, decentralized, centralized,

957
01:06:30,832 --> 01:06:32,172
decentralized, basically.

958
01:06:32,752 --> 01:06:35,492
And so perhaps with Bitcoin,

959
01:06:35,492 --> 01:06:38,392
and we are only at the first part of decentralized.

960
01:06:39,372 --> 01:06:42,532
And the reaction it creates is, you know,

961
01:06:42,592 --> 01:06:45,712
this acceleration of CBDC talk and whatnot.

962
01:06:46,032 --> 01:06:48,852
I mean, you see Christine Lagarde,

963
01:06:49,752 --> 01:06:51,292
the president of the ECB,

964
01:06:51,412 --> 01:06:55,112
talk about China being an inspiration for their CBDC.

965
01:06:55,112 --> 01:07:00,332
Like, what the, you know, where are we in which movie?

966
01:07:00,552 --> 01:07:01,352
Basically, I don't know.

967
01:07:01,532 --> 01:07:02,912
Like, it's just out of this world

968
01:07:02,912 --> 01:07:04,592
that she talks about it like that.

969
01:07:04,592 --> 01:07:08,672
But I think that spawns this centralized forced reaction.

970
01:07:09,532 --> 01:07:13,212
They're going to try something in some way, shape, or form.

971
01:07:13,352 --> 01:07:15,672
They're definitely going to try something.

972
01:07:16,392 --> 01:07:23,012
Even forcibly, you know, politically trying to coerce countries in accepting that there's going to be...

973
01:07:23,012 --> 01:07:23,472
I don't know.

974
01:07:23,592 --> 01:07:27,972
Something is going to blow up or go bad.

975
01:07:28,652 --> 01:07:33,552
And then people find this decentralization again, I would say.

976
01:07:33,552 --> 01:07:42,532
so perhaps there has to be a centralized type of reaction that spawned and then people will

977
01:07:42,532 --> 01:07:48,492
will realize that no the decentralized solution is is better again but again i i think that takes

978
01:07:48,492 --> 01:07:53,352
years i think music is different than money right like money is way way way deeper ingrained

979
01:07:53,352 --> 01:08:00,352
and and the whole spell again enchantment of human is way way deeper ingrained so i just think that

980
01:08:00,352 --> 01:08:02,372
takes a longer time and that's also

981
01:08:02,372 --> 01:08:04,012
kind of like why I see this as a

982
01:08:04,012 --> 01:08:05,872
battle but yeah I think there are

983
01:08:05,872 --> 01:08:08,412
previous examples

984
01:08:08,412 --> 01:08:10,592
of similar ways that the technology

985
01:08:10,592 --> 01:08:12,572
kind of disrupted you know the centralized

986
01:08:12,572 --> 01:08:13,492
control

987
01:08:13,492 --> 01:08:16,612
spawning different types of

988
01:08:16,612 --> 01:08:18,592
reactions so yeah

989
01:08:18,592 --> 01:08:20,492
to go back to the

990
01:08:20,492 --> 01:08:22,412
original topic I do think we're

991
01:08:22,412 --> 01:08:24,432
going to talk about it for a

992
01:08:24,432 --> 01:08:26,372
long time and it's also something you should be able

993
01:08:26,372 --> 01:08:28,572
to defend right that's something that I've seen

994
01:08:28,572 --> 01:08:29,292
that

995
01:08:29,292 --> 01:08:31,872
when they talk about CBDCs,

996
01:08:31,892 --> 01:08:32,832
they're going to be like, yeah.

997
01:08:33,272 --> 01:08:35,972
Well, they are like, yeah, it is digital.

998
01:08:36,252 --> 01:08:37,792
Everything nowadays is digital.

999
01:08:38,052 --> 01:08:39,332
Your life is going to be easier.

1000
01:08:39,452 --> 01:08:41,372
That's literally their pitch, right?

1001
01:08:41,412 --> 01:08:44,092
Like it's the dumbest of dumbest arguments

1002
01:08:44,092 --> 01:08:50,312
that they're using to market this thing, right?

1003
01:08:50,312 --> 01:08:52,832
And so I think we need to,

1004
01:08:53,672 --> 01:08:55,472
as in everyone who is into Bitcoin,

1005
01:08:55,712 --> 01:08:58,312
enable other people to actually understand

1006
01:08:58,312 --> 01:09:04,792
understand that that is a dumb argument and that is not what's going to be given to you when you

1007
01:09:04,792 --> 01:09:11,832
adopt the CBDC right like you I think what is so great about bitcoin is that you can

1008
01:09:11,832 --> 01:09:18,872
create a philosophical underpinning for a lot of argument a lot of pro-bitcoin arguments you can go

1009
01:09:18,872 --> 01:09:24,872
pretty deep with the philosophical arguments right and when I kind of like thought about that and then

1010
01:09:24,872 --> 01:09:29,512
started looking at all the arguments for CBDC or the Euro is so amazing or the European Union and

1011
01:09:29,512 --> 01:09:35,172
you know like this monetary union is so amazing all these arguments are flawed eventually all

1012
01:09:35,172 --> 01:09:41,332
these arguments are like trust me bro you know like we are the ECB I am the leader of the ECB

1013
01:09:41,332 --> 01:09:45,932
you should trust me I know what's best I'm an economist whatever you know I'm an expert I have

1014
01:09:45,932 --> 01:09:53,772
a PhD and and yeah once you see that literally proof of work in Bitcoin is not only saying you

1015
01:09:53,772 --> 01:09:59,752
have bitcoin like you are forced to be transparent if you say i have one bitcoin i say show me you say

1016
01:09:59,752 --> 01:10:05,792
no okay i don't trust you like it is as simple as that and in the fiat money world um yeah the the

1017
01:10:05,792 --> 01:10:12,132
the press conference that i referenced of the england central bank they had some sort of admin

1018
01:10:12,132 --> 01:10:17,132
snafu or something i don't know they had an emergency presser where they said like yeah there

1019
01:10:17,132 --> 01:10:23,772
was something with some remodeling in the vault or the labeling and something went wrong,

1020
01:10:23,872 --> 01:10:24,692
but we'll fix it.

1021
01:10:24,832 --> 01:10:28,492
And then there's like three questions from a journalist and they're like, okay, you know,

1022
01:10:28,592 --> 01:10:29,732
we're good again.

1023
01:10:29,932 --> 01:10:35,352
And so like in the fiat money world, people believe the talk because it comes from a certain

1024
01:10:35,352 --> 01:10:36,632
authority or something.

1025
01:10:36,732 --> 01:10:42,312
But Bitcoin, I think, is showing us that there is a mechanism, there is a system that actually

1026
01:10:42,312 --> 01:10:50,272
forces all the participants to be transparent or else those participants cannot gain any value from

1027
01:10:50,272 --> 01:10:57,072
using this system. And for me, that is something that I find super intriguing is that because that

1028
01:10:57,072 --> 01:11:05,232
exists, it is never going away because arguably we can argue that that is a better system compared

1029
01:11:05,232 --> 01:11:07,112
to this other system.

1030
01:11:07,272 --> 01:11:11,032
So I'm actually also happy that the whole CBDC trajectory

1031
01:11:11,032 --> 01:11:12,292
is accelerated.

1032
01:11:12,752 --> 01:11:16,572
And even today we saw a video of Lagarde saying

1033
01:11:16,572 --> 01:11:18,552
Bitcoin has no intrinsic value, blah, blah.

1034
01:11:18,692 --> 01:11:19,612
That's great.

1035
01:11:20,012 --> 01:11:21,052
That is great.

1036
01:11:21,052 --> 01:11:26,572
Let them dig their own hole with flawed arguments

1037
01:11:26,572 --> 01:11:30,372
and just let the rendos on Twitter and LinkedIn

1038
01:11:30,372 --> 01:11:33,852
and whatever, the Bitcoiners that figured it out,

1039
01:11:33,852 --> 01:11:38,372
they can defend that to the end, basically.

1040
01:11:38,592 --> 01:11:40,892
Because we know what we're talking about.

1041
01:11:41,012 --> 01:11:44,772
And there's a certain, again, philosophical underpinning that, yeah,

1042
01:11:44,812 --> 01:11:46,732
if you're against that, well, good luck.

1043
01:11:46,852 --> 01:11:50,652
Try to be anti-Bitcoin with a philosophical take.

1044
01:11:51,952 --> 01:11:53,632
And yeah, see what happens.

1045
01:11:53,832 --> 01:11:56,172
You know, like I'm sometimes on LinkedIn in the trenches,

1046
01:11:56,432 --> 01:11:58,512
sometimes commenting or posting, you know.

1047
01:11:58,832 --> 01:12:02,692
And I see all these people that I don't know that are pro-Bitcoin.

1048
01:12:02,692 --> 01:12:08,452
they are all in these in these comments just explaining you know pictures links fucking pdfs

1049
01:12:08,452 --> 01:12:26,194
all these things and so there there this whole yeah decentralized social movement also globally where yeah people are connected through bitcoin and they helping each other battling all the philosophically flawed anti crowd

1050
01:12:26,394 --> 01:12:29,454
which is also amazing.

1051
01:12:29,454 --> 01:12:33,934
And that's that cooperative behavior.

1052
01:12:34,714 --> 01:12:37,854
People understand that when they contribute to Bitcoin,

1053
01:12:38,054 --> 01:12:39,734
they don't do that for themselves.

1054
01:12:39,854 --> 01:12:40,994
They also do that for others.

1055
01:12:41,314 --> 01:12:42,754
And they know that when others do that,

1056
01:12:43,274 --> 01:12:45,354
it helps them as well.

1057
01:12:45,354 --> 01:12:52,954
And I just think that's a truly fascinating system and to see that and to experience that as well.

1058
01:12:53,234 --> 01:12:53,874
Yeah, for sure.

1059
01:12:54,434 --> 01:13:03,314
I mean, I find that most people are more excited about AI, investing in AI, using AI, learning AI.

1060
01:13:04,254 --> 01:13:08,814
They'll spend money on subscriptions to use it, download different.

1061
01:13:08,814 --> 01:13:16,894
It's interesting to me that that's been a more palatable form of new technology that people are really excited about.

1062
01:13:18,154 --> 01:13:29,114
Do you think AI is compatible with Bitcoin or a threat to Bitcoin from an energy standpoint or anything like that?

1063
01:13:29,114 --> 01:13:43,014
No, I think super compatible. I think AI can probably not scale without Bitcoin, not only with regard to, you know, perhaps payments and stuff like that, but especially the energy part.

1064
01:13:43,014 --> 01:13:54,874
Last week, I actually recorded with Daniel Batten, who I think you also know, who's like really, he was really against Bitcoin because of the energy use.

1065
01:13:55,014 --> 01:13:57,294
He's like a climate tech investor.

1066
01:13:58,154 --> 01:14:06,494
And he has a big fund that funds, you know, methane mitigation, which is a very bad pollutant, for example.

1067
01:14:06,494 --> 01:14:34,574
And when he realized that Bitcoin mining is the only way to make renewable energy sources actually economically viable, right, because they are the only type of computers that you can actually power off within a minute to or power on within a minute to help stabilize a grid or, you know, do the load balancing for energy networks.

1068
01:14:34,574 --> 01:14:38,234
And yeah, you cannot really do that with AI.

1069
01:14:39,574 --> 01:14:41,694
You cannot just turn off chat GPT.

1070
01:14:41,814 --> 01:14:44,514
That would be a bad user experience.

1071
01:14:44,854 --> 01:14:51,734
So I see a lot of synergy actually between Bitcoin and AI on that energy and mining side.

1072
01:14:51,874 --> 01:14:58,654
But also in terms of, okay, what does work look like in the future

1073
01:14:58,654 --> 01:15:03,094
if the majority of people's jobs is going to be replaced?

1074
01:15:04,574 --> 01:15:10,914
well accounting for example right like what is that going to look like yeah maybe not all

1075
01:15:10,914 --> 01:15:17,934
accountants will go away but probably 90 percent will okay what are all these people going to do

1076
01:15:17,934 --> 01:15:24,294
i i think those are very uh interesting things to just think about because it's hard to

1077
01:15:24,294 --> 01:15:31,754
i think visualize the future but i do believe ai will usher in some sort of age of abundance

1078
01:15:31,754 --> 01:15:38,674
but how do you measure that prosperity right and and this is a big thing was a big thing for me in

1079
01:15:38,674 --> 01:15:43,994
my journey understanding and this is from jeff booth right like that if technological progression

1080
01:15:43,994 --> 01:15:52,454
is deflationary by nature i.e you know technology becomes more accessible eventually cheaper and

1081
01:15:52,454 --> 01:15:59,914
eventually eventually already you know cheap and everyone can use it um which i think we're on our

1082
01:15:59,914 --> 01:16:07,434
way with AI. I mean, there's open source AI models already. And I mean, every week, there's like an

1083
01:16:07,434 --> 01:16:16,414
immense amount of new announcements and developments and stuff like that. Okay, if there's a lot of

1084
01:16:16,414 --> 01:16:24,134
productivity gains coming from this technological advancement, how do you measure them? And I think

1085
01:16:24,134 --> 01:16:29,834
there's a great example, actually, in a video by Lynn Alden, where she shows that these deflationary

1086
01:16:29,834 --> 01:16:37,694
technological forces actually crash into the inflationary money,

1087
01:16:38,414 --> 01:16:42,574
fiat money that we prize these technological advancements in.

1088
01:16:43,874 --> 01:16:49,114
And when you then think about, okay, which side is winning

1089
01:16:49,114 --> 01:16:51,914
if these two forces are clashing, right?

1090
01:16:52,454 --> 01:16:56,394
I think the answer can be found in what does a bread cost today, right?

1091
01:16:56,394 --> 01:17:01,334
Like a bread today is four or five, you know, money units, dollar, let's say, keep with dollars.

1092
01:17:01,894 --> 01:17:04,114
And 50 years ago, bread was 20 cents.

1093
01:17:04,414 --> 01:17:07,794
And so this is, this I use sometimes with people.

1094
01:17:07,934 --> 01:17:15,854
I say like, do you agree that, do you think it's probable that in the past 50, 60 years, we've become better at making bread?

1095
01:17:16,114 --> 01:17:17,614
Everyone says yes, right?

1096
01:17:17,634 --> 01:17:18,454
And then say why?

1097
01:17:18,554 --> 01:17:22,014
And then they say, well, I think the machines become better and we have computers and stuff like that.

1098
01:17:22,034 --> 01:17:23,154
I said, yeah, okay, exactly.

1099
01:17:23,314 --> 01:17:23,474
Okay.

1100
01:17:23,474 --> 01:17:24,614
So you agree with that, right?

1101
01:17:24,694 --> 01:17:24,894
Okay.

1102
01:17:24,954 --> 01:17:25,134
Yeah.

1103
01:17:25,134 --> 01:17:31,294
so uh do you do you know the joke right that sometimes people say like oh yeah when you know

1104
01:17:31,294 --> 01:17:36,374
my grandfather got bread for for 20 cents do you know that that people use that as a joke and

1105
01:17:36,374 --> 01:17:40,174
they're like yeah and then and then i ask okay how do you put those two together how can we be

1106
01:17:40,174 --> 01:17:48,954
better at making bread um but why is the bread like 20 25 maybe even 30 times more expensive

1107
01:17:48,954 --> 01:17:52,694
in the same money units today.

1108
01:17:53,614 --> 01:17:54,554
And then, of course, people say,

1109
01:17:54,614 --> 01:17:55,894
yeah, well, I don't really know.

1110
01:17:55,994 --> 01:17:57,934
And that's kind of my in to talk about,

1111
01:17:58,034 --> 01:18:01,694
you know, the value of each money unit goes down.

1112
01:18:01,834 --> 01:18:04,594
So you just need more units to pay for the same thing.

1113
01:18:04,594 --> 01:18:08,754
And I think that is a really good example

1114
01:18:08,754 --> 01:18:11,134
because it's just really basic, right?

1115
01:18:11,194 --> 01:18:12,994
And I use the same, you know,

1116
01:18:13,034 --> 01:18:15,074
even dumber example is with apples.

1117
01:18:15,294 --> 01:18:17,654
Like, do apples need more energy from the sun

1118
01:18:17,654 --> 01:18:21,434
to grow in 2025 than in 1955, right?

1119
01:18:21,474 --> 01:18:23,334
Like there is no difference there.

1120
01:18:23,554 --> 01:18:26,774
But yeah, you need more money units

1121
01:18:26,774 --> 01:18:29,974
to buy the same amount of apples as in 1955, right?

1122
01:18:29,974 --> 01:18:34,754
And so that shows you which side is winning,

1123
01:18:35,474 --> 01:18:37,454
which is a bad conclusion, right?

1124
01:18:37,574 --> 01:18:39,954
The fiat money is winning.

1125
01:18:40,194 --> 01:18:42,014
And so when you then think about, okay,

1126
01:18:42,014 --> 01:18:45,754
how can we actually measure correctly

1127
01:18:45,754 --> 01:18:51,274
the deflationary forces of this advancing technology?

1128
01:18:51,694 --> 01:18:56,874
That should be done with a money that is stable in its value,

1129
01:18:56,974 --> 01:18:58,854
that can never be devalued, right?

1130
01:18:58,874 --> 01:19:02,894
It can never be debased, like no more units can be printed ever.

1131
01:19:03,434 --> 01:19:06,834
And then I think the step to Bitcoin is very short.

1132
01:19:06,834 --> 01:19:14,774
And so I do think about, yeah, Bitcoin being a measurement of value in the future.

1133
01:19:14,934 --> 01:19:19,854
I think that is the use case for Bitcoin, right?

1134
01:19:19,934 --> 01:19:27,414
Like on my X profile, I have this header image that says, you know, one liter, one meter, one kilogram, one Bitcoin.

1135
01:19:27,914 --> 01:19:30,914
Like you can do watts and volts and whatever.

1136
01:19:30,914 --> 01:19:35,914
Like there is no standard measurement for economic value.

1137
01:19:35,914 --> 01:19:42,934
value and i think in order to have that you need to have something that is an economic constant

1138
01:19:42,934 --> 01:19:49,454
like something that stays the same all the time and i think that eventually is the entire promise

1139
01:19:49,454 --> 01:19:55,694
of the bitcoin protocol right like of the rules of this digital money system it's i work like this

1140
01:19:55,694 --> 01:20:02,814
and all my incentives are um all the incentives for the people that contribute to this network

1141
01:20:02,814 --> 01:20:09,054
whether mining or running a node, are aligned to keep the rules like this.

1142
01:20:09,354 --> 01:20:14,454
Because if the rules stay like this, then this system becomes predictable.

1143
01:20:15,014 --> 01:20:17,274
And when it's predictable, it becomes trustworthy.

1144
01:20:17,634 --> 01:20:23,054
And then more people want to adopt it and then eventually secure it and contribute to it.

1145
01:20:23,054 --> 01:20:32,914
And that eventually is that flywheel that keeps the integrity of Bitcoin as a monetary network constant.

1146
01:20:32,914 --> 01:20:47,794
And that is what you need to eventually have something that can actually measure economic value in a steady way that best represents the progression.

1147
01:20:48,014 --> 01:20:50,054
And I think that is what you're already seeing, right?

1148
01:20:50,054 --> 01:20:55,334
So if you go to tradingview.com, for example, you could take any stock, you can denominated in Bitcoin.

1149
01:20:56,234 --> 01:20:58,514
They all go down.

1150
01:20:58,834 --> 01:21:03,274
So the world becomes more affordable when you adopt a Bitcoin standard.

1151
01:21:03,674 --> 01:21:07,594
Speaking maybe of like measurements and constants, number go up.

1152
01:21:07,634 --> 01:21:09,954
Is that the least important use case?

1153
01:21:10,554 --> 01:21:13,654
I think it's the most important marketing use case.

1154
01:21:13,654 --> 01:21:18,054
and I think it is

1155
01:21:18,054 --> 01:21:20,274
also

1156
01:21:20,274 --> 01:21:23,394
well one of the use cases

1157
01:21:23,394 --> 01:21:26,434
for why people would adopt it

1158
01:21:26,434 --> 01:21:29,574
so I think it is the best way to

1159
01:21:29,574 --> 01:21:32,134
get to know Bitcoin

1160
01:21:32,134 --> 01:21:35,034
but then when you actually understand

1161
01:21:35,034 --> 01:21:37,114
why it goes up forever

1162
01:21:37,114 --> 01:21:40,894
is I think when you adopt Bitcoin

1163
01:21:40,894 --> 01:21:43,434
so it's Max Keiser who says

1164
01:21:43,434 --> 01:21:50,394
fiat you know bitcoin has no top because fiat has no bottom um i think that's a a correct

1165
01:21:50,394 --> 01:21:56,574
assessment and a quick summary of of explaining why it will go up forever it's because yeah

1166
01:21:56,574 --> 01:22:04,654
bitcoin has an absolute finite supply um and all the people that have adopted bitcoin are

1167
01:22:04,654 --> 01:22:19,296
incentivized to keep it like that right the incentive to create more is actually um not interesting Whereas in a fiat money system it is actually mandatory right

1168
01:22:19,296 --> 01:22:29,396
You need to create more units into perpetuity infinitely, or else this entire thing basically breaks apart.

1169
01:22:29,596 --> 01:22:31,096
So again, there's this mirror, right?

1170
01:22:31,136 --> 01:22:34,656
Like there's this fiat money system that has to work like that.

1171
01:22:34,656 --> 01:22:39,836
And there's this Bitcoin system that has to work basically the total opposite.

1172
01:22:40,136 --> 01:22:45,456
And so why does the value of Bitcoin go up forever, basically?

1173
01:22:45,856 --> 01:22:57,076
Well, if the people in the world are, or if people either using AI or any other technology are going to be productive.

1174
01:22:57,416 --> 01:22:59,496
And I think that's the case, right?

1175
01:22:59,496 --> 01:23:07,976
I do believe that that's the whole point of what humans do in the world is we progress, we make things better, right?

1176
01:23:09,736 --> 01:23:16,216
Like the bees have a task to do the pollination and make the honey, etc.

1177
01:23:16,336 --> 01:23:18,036
That is what the bees do.

1178
01:23:18,276 --> 01:23:25,236
I think what the people do is we progress, we make things better, we innovate, we become more efficient, etc.

1179
01:23:25,356 --> 01:23:26,996
We're always doing that.

1180
01:23:26,996 --> 01:23:29,336
so if that's always happening

1181
01:23:29,336 --> 01:23:33,576
and by use of technology

1182
01:23:33,576 --> 01:23:34,696
that is accelerating

1183
01:23:34,696 --> 01:23:36,716
so productivity grows

1184
01:23:36,716 --> 01:23:39,336
then if we have Bitcoin

1185
01:23:39,336 --> 01:23:40,296
on one side

1186
01:23:40,296 --> 01:23:41,256
and we have fiat money

1187
01:23:41,256 --> 01:23:42,336
on the other side

1188
01:23:42,336 --> 01:23:43,016
as we talked about

1189
01:23:43,016 --> 01:23:43,636
fiat money

1190
01:23:43,636 --> 01:23:44,636
you can buy less

1191
01:23:44,636 --> 01:23:45,876
even tomorrow

1192
01:23:45,876 --> 01:23:47,136
you can already buy less

1193
01:23:47,136 --> 01:23:48,296
you know it's a tiny bit

1194
01:23:48,296 --> 01:23:49,616
but you can already buy less

1195
01:23:49,616 --> 01:23:51,776
whereas with Bitcoin

1196
01:23:51,776 --> 01:23:53,596
once more people

1197
01:23:53,596 --> 01:23:55,896
realize that

1198
01:23:55,896 --> 01:24:03,356
this is something that cannot be debased and it's the it's verifiably the most scarce asset

1199
01:24:03,356 --> 01:24:08,076
in the world that can be used as money right like people say like well one certain picasso is

1200
01:24:08,076 --> 01:24:13,176
the most scarce because there's only one but you cannot use that as as a global money of course

1201
01:24:13,176 --> 01:24:21,536
um yeah that's when you kind of start seeing that if we start valuing things in bitcoin as the only

1202
01:24:21,536 --> 01:24:28,016
economic constant that exists in the world that's going to be the thing that you need to own and

1203
01:24:28,016 --> 01:24:34,576
work for and i think we're now in a phase where people yeah sell their fiat money to buy bitcoin

1204
01:24:34,576 --> 01:24:39,816
to save in bitcoin right to save what they the wealth they already have in bitcoin and in the

1205
01:24:39,816 --> 01:24:45,476
future people are going to start asking for it as a reward in in the value exchanges that they

1206
01:24:45,476 --> 01:24:51,016
that they participate in and i think that is going to accelerate it even further but that is a perhaps

1207
01:24:51,016 --> 01:24:53,136
a few years out.

1208
01:24:53,796 --> 01:24:57,476
But yeah, that's when people really start to leave the fiat money for Bitcoin.

1209
01:24:57,956 --> 01:25:00,376
And yeah, because we cannot create more.

1210
01:25:00,496 --> 01:25:02,836
That's why the value of each Bitcoin goes up, obviously.

1211
01:25:03,976 --> 01:25:04,096
Right.

1212
01:25:04,796 --> 01:25:07,896
So maybe kind of a few more questions here.

1213
01:25:08,196 --> 01:25:10,536
Are the millennials the luckiest generation ever?

1214
01:25:11,056 --> 01:25:11,836
That's a fun question.

1215
01:25:12,236 --> 01:25:13,616
I think youth, yes.

1216
01:25:14,536 --> 01:25:15,736
Adulthood, less.

1217
01:25:17,856 --> 01:25:20,236
Yeah, I think that's what we talked about, right?

1218
01:25:20,236 --> 01:25:34,816
I think that's also why it's hard to comprehend for millennials that, yeah, in their adult life, they actually have a problem after growing up again, right?

1219
01:25:34,836 --> 01:25:43,596
Like Western world, that's my perspective, growing up so freely with a lot of exciting things happening, prosperity, etc.

1220
01:25:46,696 --> 01:25:48,536
Eventually, I would say yes.

1221
01:25:48,536 --> 01:25:51,156
so we are the luckiest because we are also

1222
01:25:51,156 --> 01:25:53,056
lucky to be alive in this time that we can

1223
01:25:53,056 --> 01:25:54,476
actually do something about it

1224
01:25:54,476 --> 01:25:56,816
with a certain edge I'd say

1225
01:25:56,816 --> 01:25:59,396
in technology and the use of technology

1226
01:25:59,396 --> 01:26:03,356
that perhaps older generations

1227
01:26:03,356 --> 01:26:04,356
don't have so

1228
01:26:04,356 --> 01:26:06,816
yeah that would be my answer

1229
01:26:06,816 --> 01:26:07,516
so yeah we

1230
01:26:07,516 --> 01:26:10,916
we are lucky that we can actually fix

1231
01:26:10,916 --> 01:26:12,996
possibly fix

1232
01:26:12,996 --> 01:26:14,416
the huge problem that we have

1233
01:26:14,416 --> 01:26:15,896
Is Bitcoin a cult?

1234
01:26:15,896 --> 01:26:24,216
If it was a cult, it would be the only cult where people tell each other to not listen to other people and think for themselves.

1235
01:26:24,536 --> 01:26:27,276
So I think by that definition, Bitcoin is not a cult.

1236
01:26:27,796 --> 01:26:29,036
I actually had a podcast.

1237
01:26:30,316 --> 01:26:38,296
I have a podcast episode with a former cult member who emailed me and said, you know, I listen to your podcast.

1238
01:26:38,376 --> 01:26:40,996
And sometimes people talk about Bitcoin being a cult.

1239
01:26:40,996 --> 01:26:46,476
Well, I was in a cult and I can tell you that Bitcoin is the antithesis of a cult.

1240
01:26:47,536 --> 01:26:48,856
And let's talk about it.

1241
01:26:48,956 --> 01:26:54,616
So I have a whole, you know, so if people go to my YouTube channel and search for the word cult, they can find that episode.

1242
01:26:55,456 --> 01:26:58,536
And it's really interesting what he shares.

1243
01:26:58,656 --> 01:27:00,216
So no, Bitcoin is not a cult.

1244
01:27:00,336 --> 01:27:07,096
I think also that is a fiat argument by anti-Bitcoin people that say like, oh, all these people believe in the same thing.

1245
01:27:07,096 --> 01:27:08,716
And they all say the same thing.

1246
01:27:08,776 --> 01:27:11,756
And they all tell me that I don't understand, that my arguments are stupid.

1247
01:27:11,876 --> 01:27:12,796
That must be a cult.

1248
01:27:12,976 --> 01:27:13,096
Yeah.

1249
01:27:13,916 --> 01:27:15,336
Sure, keep thinking it's a cult.

1250
01:27:15,476 --> 01:27:15,876
That's okay.

1251
01:27:17,236 --> 01:27:18,536
Is life a game?

1252
01:27:19,476 --> 01:27:19,796
Yes.

1253
01:27:20,576 --> 01:27:21,716
A gift and a game.

1254
01:27:22,316 --> 01:27:24,156
Does Bitcoin fix the game?

1255
01:27:24,996 --> 01:27:25,316
No.

1256
01:27:26,696 --> 01:27:28,216
That's a great question.

1257
01:27:28,696 --> 01:27:35,456
No, I think Bitcoin actually enables you to play the game in a more conscious way.

1258
01:27:35,456 --> 01:27:41,956
because some of the rules or some of the circumstances

1259
01:27:41,956 --> 01:27:46,476
are not influenced by other people that are no better than you.

1260
01:27:46,856 --> 01:27:48,816
Is money a spiritual thing?

1261
01:27:49,756 --> 01:27:50,016
Yes.

1262
01:27:50,796 --> 01:27:53,056
Very much, I would say.

1263
01:27:54,276 --> 01:27:56,036
Are we in a spiritual war?

1264
01:27:56,936 --> 01:27:57,296
Yes.

1265
01:27:57,976 --> 01:27:59,556
Very much, I would say.

1266
01:27:59,556 --> 01:28:00,256
Yes.

1267
01:28:00,256 --> 01:28:08,936
yeah i think i think this is the i love this topic because i uh like what i just said

1268
01:28:08,936 --> 01:28:17,736
you know there are once i realized that all other organizations all leadership in a country every

1269
01:28:17,736 --> 01:28:25,276
government it's just other people it's just other people that have not figured what this life uh you

1270
01:28:25,276 --> 01:28:30,796
know they haven't figured out what this life is about right they have the same ego the same

1271
01:28:30,796 --> 01:28:41,276
struggles the same wishes desires wants needs challenges personal issues child traumas whatever

1272
01:28:41,276 --> 01:28:48,616
and so some people are smarter than other people but i think easily giving in to the fact that

1273
01:28:48,616 --> 01:28:56,016
other people are more superior to you and therefore they should have some sort of privilege

1274
01:28:56,016 --> 01:29:03,696
to rule over you, to be in charge of, you know, in the context that we talk about money, in charge

1275
01:29:03,696 --> 01:29:12,776
of a certain technology that they can design to benefit them and not you, right? I think is a

1276
01:29:12,776 --> 01:29:20,436
spiritual crime in the sense that we are at a certain point now that too many people, I would

1277
01:29:20,436 --> 01:29:28,936
say, because we collectively allow it. Yeah, I think that's okay. And I personally don't think

1278
01:29:28,936 --> 01:29:34,156
that's okay. Because yeah, these are just other people. You know, if we give these other people

1279
01:29:34,156 --> 01:29:38,756
a certain authority over us to do things for us,

1280
01:29:39,236 --> 01:29:42,556
then in my logical reasoning,

1281
01:29:42,556 --> 01:29:44,096
I would like to see the receipts

1282
01:29:44,096 --> 01:29:49,256
as to why we should give them certain privileges over us

1283
01:29:49,256 --> 01:29:52,376
and what the benefit is that we get in return.

1284
01:29:52,936 --> 01:29:54,876
And if that isn't clear,

1285
01:29:56,336 --> 01:29:58,776
but they still want to be in charge

1286
01:29:58,776 --> 01:30:01,516
and try to control us,

1287
01:30:01,516 --> 01:30:07,196
then yeah, I would say there is at least a war of ideas going on.

1288
01:30:07,276 --> 01:30:10,256
But eventually it is a spiritual war

1289
01:30:10,256 --> 01:30:16,956
because I personally believe that, I mean, we are all the same.

1290
01:30:17,236 --> 01:30:19,756
We have different incarnations in this meat suit.

1291
01:30:21,276 --> 01:30:23,276
But we are all the same.

1292
01:30:23,416 --> 01:30:29,776
And I think having a technology in the perceived reality

1293
01:30:29,776 --> 01:30:32,856
that can help us align incentives

1294
01:30:32,856 --> 01:30:36,156
and actually build and explore together

1295
01:30:36,156 --> 01:30:38,596
sounds way more appealing to me

1296
01:30:38,596 --> 01:30:43,056
than some sort of technocratic authoritarian future

1297
01:30:43,056 --> 01:30:45,676
where other people, no smarter, no better,

1298
01:30:46,416 --> 01:30:50,316
not more deserving than me, are ruling over me.

1299
01:30:50,576 --> 01:30:51,416
So fuck that.

1300
01:30:51,896 --> 01:30:56,236
I don't think that is something anyone should accept.

1301
01:30:56,236 --> 01:30:59,716
And I think the outsourcing of thinking

1302
01:30:59,716 --> 01:31:08,836
nowadays is something that uh is a huge symptom of this spiritual war the the fact that people

1303
01:31:08,836 --> 01:31:14,996
are too afraid to think for themselves whether they are right or wrong it doesn't really matter

1304
01:31:14,996 --> 01:31:21,236
right like i don't care if people think i'm wrong that's okay uh as long as we can talk about it and

1305
01:31:21,236 --> 01:31:28,896
and and you can debate me or have a dialogue with me and show your uh yeah again like your

1306
01:31:28,896 --> 01:31:31,536
philosophical underpinning of what you believe, that's fine.

1307
01:31:33,196 --> 01:31:37,736
I think that should be the goal. I think that's, that is funny because I do think that's what we

1308
01:31:37,736 --> 01:31:43,156
learned, you know, when we talk about the Greeks, you know, what we learned in high school when we

1309
01:31:43,156 --> 01:31:47,636
talk about the Greeks, how they discussed and, you know, and had this dialogue and all this dialectic

1310
01:31:47,636 --> 01:31:58,336
and that that was how the democracy worked. But yeah, that's not what we're seeing today. So we're

1311
01:31:58,336 --> 01:32:12,838
we pretty far away from that And um it seems like no one really cares which is a pity and i think is also a motivator for me to just not stop talking about bitcoin because i do i do think

1312
01:32:12,838 --> 01:32:21,818
bitcoin uh yeah like i said fixes these incentives and eventually uh fixes the world yeah yeah well

1313
01:32:21,818 --> 01:32:23,838
So do you think young people should be all in?

1314
01:32:24,478 --> 01:32:24,758
Yes.

1315
01:32:25,618 --> 01:32:32,578
I think it would be great and very empowering

1316
01:32:32,578 --> 01:32:36,278
when younger people realize that,

1317
01:32:36,578 --> 01:32:37,798
like I said in the beginning,

1318
01:32:37,918 --> 01:32:40,958
there is a certain problem that other people created for you

1319
01:32:40,958 --> 01:32:42,698
and it's up to you to figure that out.

1320
01:32:42,698 --> 01:32:47,018
And they don't really care what you do.

1321
01:32:47,618 --> 01:32:50,498
So you might as well go all the way

1322
01:32:50,498 --> 01:33:18,478
And for example, with Bitcoin experience that there is a global network of a lot of like-minded, intelligent, curious, brave people that are adopting another money, not to the benefit of themselves, but actually to the benefit of also all the other people that adopt this money.

1323
01:33:18,478 --> 01:33:26,478
and I think that could be a little bit scary or intimidating, right?

1324
01:33:26,478 --> 01:33:30,358
Because of course you should trust all the people in charge, etc.

1325
01:33:34,378 --> 01:33:39,038
Yeah, but again, I do think that doing that in a conscious way,

1326
01:33:39,118 --> 01:33:41,858
so understanding what you're doing is very important, right?

1327
01:33:41,858 --> 01:33:43,618
So studying Bitcoin is very important.

1328
01:33:43,798 --> 01:33:46,818
Understanding what you are getting into is very important.

1329
01:33:46,818 --> 01:33:48,158
but I think

1330
01:33:48,158 --> 01:33:50,358
and so that is not easy

1331
01:33:50,358 --> 01:33:52,578
but on the other side of that

1332
01:33:52,578 --> 01:33:53,698
I think is a very

1333
01:33:53,698 --> 01:33:58,138
freeing mindset

1334
01:33:58,138 --> 01:34:00,498
that actually makes you

1335
01:34:00,498 --> 01:34:02,478
more appreciative of

1336
01:34:02,478 --> 01:34:04,518
life I would say

1337
01:34:04,518 --> 01:34:06,798
more free, more in the now

1338
01:34:06,798 --> 01:34:08,678
and I think that is

1339
01:34:08,678 --> 01:34:09,558
eventually what

1340
01:34:09,558 --> 01:34:12,798
makes the quality of your life higher

1341
01:34:12,798 --> 01:34:14,718
and I think

1342
01:34:14,718 --> 01:34:16,518
that going all in

1343
01:34:16,818 --> 01:34:19,098
with that conviction based on study,

1344
01:34:19,718 --> 01:34:23,718
is probably the best risk-reward opportunity

1345
01:34:23,718 --> 01:34:26,418
that any young person has today.

1346
01:34:26,418 --> 01:34:29,598
Because your future based on fiat money

1347
01:34:29,598 --> 01:34:34,438
is promised, but is definitely not existing.

1348
01:34:34,858 --> 01:34:37,738
So you might as well just disregard it

1349
01:34:37,738 --> 01:34:41,798
and adopt, I think, what I believe

1350
01:34:41,798 --> 01:34:43,618
is the better alternative today

1351
01:34:43,618 --> 01:34:47,458
that will probably give you the best reward.

1352
01:34:48,158 --> 01:34:49,698
What do you say when people say,

1353
01:34:49,818 --> 01:34:52,098
you know, Bram, I've listened to you.

1354
01:34:52,218 --> 01:34:53,278
I love what you're saying.

1355
01:34:53,378 --> 01:34:54,078
I get it.

1356
01:34:54,818 --> 01:34:56,178
I want to live like you.

1357
01:34:56,318 --> 01:34:57,278
I want to be like you.

1358
01:34:58,298 --> 01:34:59,178
What does it take?

1359
01:34:59,238 --> 01:35:00,578
How much Bitcoin do you have?

1360
01:35:01,078 --> 01:35:01,878
What do you say to them?

1361
01:35:02,638 --> 01:35:03,118
Not enough.

1362
01:35:06,458 --> 01:35:07,418
Yeah, no.

1363
01:35:07,418 --> 01:35:10,058
I mean, eventually it doesn't really matter.

1364
01:35:10,758 --> 01:35:12,698
Again, I think how much Bitcoin you have.

1365
01:35:12,698 --> 01:35:16,358
You should have as much as you think you need.

1366
01:35:16,598 --> 01:35:19,598
I don't, it's a good question.

1367
01:35:19,838 --> 01:35:21,438
First answer is, by the way, be yourself.

1368
01:35:21,438 --> 01:35:26,078
But if I trace back how I got here,

1369
01:35:26,178 --> 01:35:30,178
I couldn't really identify all the steps, right?

1370
01:35:30,238 --> 01:35:32,058
Like it's all these little steps.

1371
01:35:32,238 --> 01:35:37,578
But I think my biggest advice would be just be,

1372
01:35:39,658 --> 01:35:41,258
just try to think for yourself.

1373
01:35:41,258 --> 01:35:46,378
try to really do the work so you can trust your own thinking

1374
01:35:46,378 --> 01:35:47,878
and trust your own judgment.

1375
01:35:48,878 --> 01:35:54,658
And then you will quickly see that many other people don't have that.

1376
01:35:55,218 --> 01:35:58,518
And the amount you have to put in is shockingly lower

1377
01:35:58,518 --> 01:36:00,198
than you might think up front.

1378
01:36:01,298 --> 01:36:01,578
Love it.

1379
01:36:01,778 --> 01:36:02,598
All right, two more.

1380
01:36:02,758 --> 01:36:04,478
How has Bitcoin changed you?

1381
01:36:05,158 --> 01:36:06,958
Maybe in a way you totally didn't expect

1382
01:36:06,958 --> 01:36:09,438
or some way you haven't covered tonight.

1383
01:36:09,438 --> 01:36:15,558
I think just kind of what I said now just being way more conscious living in the now I used to

1384
01:36:15,558 --> 01:36:22,218
have a lot of I think anxiety about the future in a sense that you know like like like I said in the

1385
01:36:22,218 --> 01:36:27,838
beginning I was quite entrepreneurial I'm not a hardcore entrepreneur right like I have more it's

1386
01:36:27,838 --> 01:36:32,198
more like I have entrepreneurial tendencies but there were also many times that I didn't try

1387
01:36:32,198 --> 01:36:37,678
something or I was too afraid to do it or I had like super high expectations of when I actually

1388
01:36:37,678 --> 01:36:42,258
attempted something and then when I failed I was super bummed about it because I always felt like

1389
01:36:42,258 --> 01:36:49,558
everything should uh work on the first try that I tried it I don't even know why I thought about

1390
01:36:49,558 --> 01:36:56,638
that like I I felt a lot of pressure like towards the future and now I actually feel way more in the

1391
01:36:56,638 --> 01:37:02,118
in the now like live in the now like I do think about the future but it doesn't um

1392
01:37:02,118 --> 01:37:07,858
it doesn't have the hold on me that it had on me before.

1393
01:37:07,858 --> 01:37:13,598
So I actually feel like I lowered my natural anxiety towards the future

1394
01:37:13,598 --> 01:37:17,638
to actually appreciate all the things that I can experience right now.

1395
01:37:17,638 --> 01:37:21,618
And that is something that I definitely did not expect, you know,

1396
01:37:21,818 --> 01:37:25,898
12 years ago when I started day trading with my student friends

1397
01:37:25,898 --> 01:37:27,478
trying to be richer or whatever.

1398
01:37:27,478 --> 01:37:32,478
so um i think that's something that that has been really surprising yeah

1399
01:37:32,478 --> 01:37:37,038
if you could orange pill anyone in the world who would it be and why

1400
01:37:37,038 --> 01:37:46,598
yeah okay this is a this is a corny answer perhaps but fucking joe rogan

1401
01:37:46,598 --> 01:37:53,278
he needs to understand he needs to understand what this is he's so close he's so close and

1402
01:37:53,278 --> 01:37:57,418
And he had Antonopoulos on, you know, who totally explained it to him.

1403
01:37:57,938 --> 01:38:00,158
And he is just so close.

1404
01:38:00,158 --> 01:38:10,258
And I really hope we can get someone who gets Bitcoin with like that amount of clout.

1405
01:38:12,678 --> 01:38:23,058
Because I think there are certain, there are an infinite amount of paths basically exist for Bitcoin to like be adopted in the world.

1406
01:38:23,058 --> 01:38:26,878
But I do think there are some shortcuts along the way.

1407
01:38:27,018 --> 01:38:35,698
I think Trump, whatever you think of Trump, is somewhat of a shortcut for Bitcoin.

1408
01:38:36,998 --> 01:38:43,318
Because I think it's now politically impopular to be against Bitcoin in the next election, right?

1409
01:38:43,338 --> 01:38:48,858
It would be very dumb to be anti-Bitcoin on the Democrat platform, for example,

1410
01:38:48,958 --> 01:38:51,578
now that Bitcoin is in all these pension funds, etc.

1411
01:38:51,578 --> 01:39:04,038
And so I think that was a little shortcut, but I think more someone that is part of, of shaping culture, um, with cloud like Rogan, I think, I think it, it should be Rogan.

1412
01:39:04,038 --> 01:39:11,098
I think that he would be someone that when he actually sees it,

1413
01:39:12,098 --> 01:39:13,758
this is probably the only thing he talks about.

1414
01:39:13,858 --> 01:39:15,778
And like all the things he finds interesting.

1415
01:39:15,978 --> 01:39:17,298
I've listened to a lot of Joe Rogan.

1416
01:39:17,558 --> 01:39:19,078
All the things he finds interesting,

1417
01:39:19,258 --> 01:39:21,458
all the things that he's annoyed by where he's like,

1418
01:39:21,518 --> 01:39:22,838
why the fuck does it work like that?

1419
01:39:22,878 --> 01:39:24,938
Or if it's about health or food or whatever,

1420
01:39:25,598 --> 01:39:27,258
you can all trace it back to the money.

1421
01:39:27,258 --> 01:39:29,498
It's like infinitely interesting.

1422
01:39:30,118 --> 01:39:32,738
And he is an infinitely curious person.

1423
01:39:32,738 --> 01:39:42,938
And so I think if he really gets it, I think this is the only thing that he's going to talk about because he's going to put two and two together.

1424
01:39:43,338 --> 01:39:49,738
I think Bitcoin is probably the biggest missing link for Joe Rogan to put all the stuff together that he finds interesting.

1425
01:39:50,618 --> 01:39:58,778
And so, yeah, I think Joe Rogan would be a good shortcut for Bitcoin to kind of like take a big leap forward in adoption and awareness.

1426
01:39:59,718 --> 01:40:00,378
We'll see.

1427
01:40:00,538 --> 01:40:01,618
I don't think he ever does it.

1428
01:40:01,618 --> 01:40:03,238
I think he stays away.

1429
01:40:03,978 --> 01:40:05,578
That's kind of his role.

1430
01:40:05,718 --> 01:40:06,278
I don't know.

1431
01:40:07,278 --> 01:40:09,898
But, Bram, this has been so dope.

1432
01:40:10,258 --> 01:40:11,038
This has been incredible.

1433
01:40:11,218 --> 01:40:12,078
I loved having you on.

1434
01:40:12,578 --> 01:40:14,338
I'll leave it to you for any parting words,

1435
01:40:14,398 --> 01:40:16,198
letting people know they can find you and your podcast

1436
01:40:16,198 --> 01:40:17,538
and all your work.

1437
01:40:18,678 --> 01:40:20,858
Yeah, thanks for having the conversation.

1438
01:40:21,218 --> 01:40:24,478
For me, it's always nice to be on the other side.

1439
01:40:24,638 --> 01:40:28,678
It gives me a moment to frame and think about my own thoughts,

1440
01:40:28,678 --> 01:40:31,398
So I hope it was somewhat coherent.

1441
01:40:32,878 --> 01:40:37,938
But yeah, I'm happy to be by your side again.

1442
01:40:38,078 --> 01:40:40,618
Thanks for the inspiration to start the podcast.

1443
01:40:40,798 --> 01:40:43,938
And I know I'm going to continue with this for a very long time.

1444
01:40:44,158 --> 01:40:55,678
And yeah, if people want to learn about what I'm talking about with regard to Bitcoin with people, yeah, they can search for Bitcoin for Millennials on Spotify, Apple Podcasts,

1445
01:40:55,678 --> 01:40:59,018
anywhere you get your podcast or on YouTube.

1446
01:40:59,438 --> 01:41:01,158
My channel is called Bitcoin Bram.

1447
01:41:01,438 --> 01:41:04,738
And I'm also very active on X where I'm Bram K.

1448
01:41:04,878 --> 01:41:06,318
So B-R-A-M-K.

1449
01:41:06,938 --> 01:41:07,838
You're doing great work.

1450
01:41:07,918 --> 01:41:08,358
Keep it up.

1451
01:41:08,598 --> 01:41:09,358
Thank you so much.

1452
01:41:09,718 --> 01:41:09,998
Thanks.

1453
01:41:10,198 --> 01:41:10,458
You too.

1454
01:41:10,798 --> 01:41:11,218
Thanks, brother.

1455
01:41:11,518 --> 01:41:14,518
Thanks for tuning in to this episode of The Bitcoin Matrix.

1456
01:41:14,798 --> 01:41:17,978
If you enjoyed the conversation, don't forget to like, subscribe,

1457
01:41:17,978 --> 01:41:21,118
and drop a comment below with any questions or thoughts you may have.

1458
01:41:21,438 --> 01:41:22,578
We'd love to hear from you.

1459
01:41:22,578 --> 01:41:27,118
You can support the show by checking out our sponsors and affiliate links in the description.

1460
01:41:27,358 --> 01:41:31,858
It helps keep bringing you great content while connecting you with awesome products that I believe in.

1461
01:41:32,118 --> 01:41:35,898
Share this episodes with your friends, family, or anyone curious about Bitcoin.

1462
01:41:36,278 --> 01:41:38,378
And let's keep growing this community together.

1463
01:41:38,678 --> 01:41:42,178
Stay curious, keep stacking, and I'll catch you in the next one.

1464
01:41:52,578 --> 01:41:53,078
you