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Please see the show notes for the links. Thanks for tuning in to the Bitcoin Matrix.

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Please make sure to like and subscribe to the show. Write a five star review. Share your favorite

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like hats, mugs, and t-shirts. If you didn't already know, I co-host a live show every Tuesday

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afternoon at 3 p.m. Eastern with Paul Tarantino called Bitcoin Center, where the debate is the

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story. Tune in for the laughs and jokes. In this episode of The Bitcoin Matrix, I chat with Lauren

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Rodriguez, wife of Keone Rodriguez, co-founder of the privacy-focused Bitcoin Samurai Wallet,

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about her family's harrowing journey through the U.S. justice system. Keone was indicted by the DOJ

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and sentenced to five years in federal prison for developing non-custodial Bitcoin privacy tools.

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Lauren walks us through the shocking pre-dawn FBI raid, the trial that never happened,

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the political motivations behind the charges,

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and the personal toll of what she believes is a deeply unjust prosecution.

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We dive into the philosophical fight for privacy,

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the role of open source software,

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and the chilling effect this case could have on developers everywhere.

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If you care about privacy, Bitcoin, financial freedom, or due process,

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this conversation is for you.

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And now, let's enter the Bitcoin matrix with Lauren Rodriguez.

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What is real? How do you define real? You can't jump into cash. Cash is trash. What do you do? You get out.

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Lauren, welcome to the Bitcoin Matrix podcast and thank you for taking the time to join us. How are you?

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Hi, Patrick. Thank you so much for having me on. I am doing all right, all things considered.

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Sure. Yeah, I wish we were speaking under better circumstances. And I do remain very optimistic. I really think that Keone and Bill are political prisoners and have been persecuted on. Oh, I think they're innocent. But I think sort of the persecution has been sort of politically motivated, at least by certain factions. But I think maybe the best place to start would be the raid. And if you could just sort of what was that day like?

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So it was April 24th, 2024, and we were asleep and our dog started barking.

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And it's about 5 a.m., so still dark out, April in Pennsylvania.

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It's, you know, cold, dark, and it was unusual.

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So it woke us both up and we were kind of startled.

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And Keone went over to the window and there was a light kind of rising on that side of the house.

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It's a small cottage house, but on that side it's three stories.

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and it was unusual to see a light moving up towards the window.

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And at that moment, it was, you know, I guess chaos broke out.

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There was a loudspeaker repeating his name saying, you know, come out with your hands up.

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And I guess instinct took over and I was worried about my dog.

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So we came downstairs and, you know, you're groggy and not quite sure what's going on or why this is happening.

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So as we come downstairs, I get the dog on the leash and we go out and the house is surrounded and there's laser sights on our chest and there's an MRAP armored vehicle.

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And, you know, you could kind of see night vision, goggle glow and just people everywhere.

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And again, a very we live in a very small rural town.

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So just shocking. And at that point, I'm handcuffed.

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Keone is told to get down on his knees and he is handcuffed and he's led away and put into a car.

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We're separated. I'm passed over to a local officer. I see them fly a drone into our house.

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Not sure why, but they do that. And I asked the officer that's holding me, what is this about?

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Why? You know, what's going on? And he said, I don't know. They showed up and I'm supposed to be off shift.

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And that's all I knew for a while as I stood out in the cold, in my pajamas, handcuffed.

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And then eventually they brought me back into the house and pretty much kindly told me that I should leave the premises of my own home.

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I wasn't able to speak with Keone, but I was allowed to leave.

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And I came back.

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I called the company's attorney in shock, wasn't sure what was going on.

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And he's in a different time zone.

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So, you know, woke him up.

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And thankfully, he was able to get the ball rolling and trying to find some kind of counsel

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because we still weren't really sure what was going on.

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The indictment was sealed.

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So they wouldn't tell us.

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And it's not like I thought if someone showed up to your house, they'd show you a warrant.

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That's not the case.

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It wasn't until later.

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And then they showed it to Keone when he had a public defender in Pittsburgh.

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And thankfully, I was able to pick him up from the courthouse that night.

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But at the same time that this was going on, which we didn't find out for a bit, his business partner, Bill, was being a simultaneous raid in Portugal.

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So just the coordination and the money that went into a multinational coordinated raid, it's just beggar's belief.

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How would you describe your husband's business?

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So they were, you know, Samurai Wallet was started in around 2015.

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And, you know, it was a full Bitcoin wallet, a Betch32 Bitcoin wallet.

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So, you know, similar to a lot of wallets out there.

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The kind of special thing about them was they had some added features that were privacy related.

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Everything was non-custodial, kept control of your keys at all times, all the good practices

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as a Bitcoiner that you would want to have in a wallet.

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The two, and there was many features, privacy-related features that the government didn't have

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problems with, but the two that they did have a problem with were a feature called Ricochet,

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which allowed users to programmatically add additional transactional hops automatically

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instead of having to wait for a transaction to confirm and send again,

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wait for a transaction to confirm and send again.

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So that's what Ricochet did.

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And the other feature that they had an issue with was Whirlpool.

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Whirlpool was Samurai Wallet's,

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what they developed as their CoinJoin implementation.

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And this Whirlpool was not just available in Samurai Wallet.

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It was also available in Sparrow Wallet and one other wallet actively,

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but there were some other wallets that were, I guess, looking into implementing it as well.

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So it was in three wallets. Samurai had developed it. So those were, yeah, those were what the wallets

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was. So coming out of the raid, I mean, the next couple of days, I mean, what kind of,

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how are you processing this? Did you finally, did you guys get to coordinate or speak with Bill?

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None of this sounds like a normal response or way to, I mean, were you guys, was Bill or Keone expecting any legal issues?

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Were any of this sort of like expected?

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Because this is quite the amount of, like you were saying, global coordination, manpower expense.

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Very scary.

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It was very scary. And to be honest, a lot of it, like thinking, I don't know if I just shut down autopilot function, but I think I must have because like, it's not all totally clear. But there was no inkling that something like this was going to happen.

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so the u.s government never contacted them i mean they had an own lawyer but they also had you know

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support desks and stuff where some you know if the government government could have contacted

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either for help for clarification or for there's something um called a spoilation letter so if you

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are under investigation um you know this is depicted in movies and stuff but the government

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will send you a letter that says hey don't destroy anything because we're looking into you

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And that's like kind of a common practice, especially for I'm assuming banks get these a lot and, you know, those kind of businesses.

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But that's not how we were treated. Right. This the raid and the just the all out kind of force that they used just seems so unproportional to what the charges were.

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And I mean, I don't even know what my neighbors must have been thinking, right, to see the whole town filled with armed HRT FBI agents.

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So no, no, no idea that this was this was coming.

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This was our first interaction with law enforcement in any way.

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Wow. So bizarre that the things played out that way. And the amount of force is astonishing for the even the things that were being accused here, which, you know, I don't think Keone is guilty of.

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But when when did I how did you and Keone meet? Did you find who found Bitcoin first?

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So we were together before Bitcoin. We met Chicago and he, I think, had probably heard of it, but was very much into gold and silver and kind of that way, which I guess is finally, you know, silver is finally up again from when we were kind of doing that.

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And, you know, the whole coins going through getting rolls and looking for the silver coin.

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So like kind of did that stuff.

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But then he found the coin and and really kind of got the saw what it could be and saw, you know, the potential not only in the limited supply and value there, but also in the, you know, can't be confiscated.

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Can't you know, the real freedom behind it to be able to support causes without someone telling you no.

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Because right back when he got in, I think it was about 2013, WikiLeaks was a big thing.

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And then being able to donate when Visa and MasterCard said no So actually still having a way to support causes you know a variety of causes And more recently we saw that with the Canadian truckers during COVID So it kind of similar cycles that come around

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And so, yeah, he saw the value in it. And I kind of went along for the ride.

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I think most Bitcoin spouses will probably end up knowing a lot about it as well, just from the passion that people do have for Bitcoin.

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Maybe you could describe your journey as the wife of a Bitcoiner.

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Did it take years before you even tuned in to what he was talking about?

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Did you think at first this was a crazy hobby of his?

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Or when did you know it was more for him?

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I, I, he got very passionate very quickly. And like, I got it too. He's really good at explaining

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it. And I kind of come from a more libertarian ideologies anyways. So so I definitely was bought

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in as well. I don't have the technical skills to do, to do any kind of coding or anything like that

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with it. But but I do understand it. And, you know, I was able to do kind of well, well, he

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started working for Bitcoin companies, I kind of did some side things as well and was actually

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earning Bitcoin, had my own wallet, you know, back in the day as well. So it was always fun,

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you know, buying coffee, buying things with it. That's, you know, I like to shop. So

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back then, yeah, that was a big selling feature to me that I could do that. So yeah, but I've

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been kind of right along and in the space with him, just not in any kind of functional way, I guess.

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Sure. So maybe you said it sounds like you were primed for Bitcoin. But Bitcoin can mean a lot

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of things to a lot of people. It could be just number go up. It's not even for most Bitcoiners,

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is it about privacy and custody? So when did you or how was it that you started to get it more than

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just this is an investment or trade or did you always see it as sort of revolutionary money?

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I think Keone always saw it that way. And there was so he was earning his salary. We were living

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off of Bitcoin since 2015. So there was a lot of times where, you know, he would get paid on the

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first. And by the time we went to get groceries, pay rent, that kind of stuff, it was lower.

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so when you're kind of in that environment where you're spending I guess more of the value than

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than you or than you were paid in it then I think it does kind of change your perspective a little

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bit on yes it's going to go up in the long run but this really has a utility and can bring freedom

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a lot of the users of samurai wallets were in you know we're kind of right freedom fighters in Iran

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or people in Bolivia who, you know, they need this technology that they were providing for their safety, for freedom,

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for, you know, all these other causes in addition to the financial security that Bitcoin can provide.

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Sure. Maybe you could describe more of the community or the users or his interactions, him and Bill with their users,

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and what privacy meant to them and all of you?

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Because, you know, it was more than just a wallet

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and there's this sort of a cause here around privacy.

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And I'm not sure it's fully,

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I think this is the fight that is ahead of us still.

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That we're in, obviously.

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So what was that sort of like?

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What kind of feedback would you get from users?

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So they would always say, you know,

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they built the wallet and the functionality

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that they wanted to use themselves.

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And a big part of that was, I guess, looking, I mean, Keone was very into history. I guess that's just kind of, yeah, that's what he liked. And so I think a lot of it was seeing how there can become a need for privacy.

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his father had to flee fled cube as a child under when castro came into power and um people are

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familiar with that like a lot of people you know completely but life savings wiped out if you were

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lucky enough to get out and not thrown in prison as a political prisoner so i think that probably

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did influence him a lot in knowing that this stuff does happen and it can happen quickly and

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And, you know, we're very fortunate overall in the West that, you know, we're seeing rights being eroded, but we're still pretty free and, you know, can get by.

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But it can change and it can change quickly.

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And so their thing was to have the tools available for when you would need it.

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And, yeah, they still are out there, thankfully.

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You know, they did shut down Samurai Wallet, but because it was free and open source software, there's another team that has picked it up and it's still running.

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Also, if you were running your own node, you know, you weren't affected except for the Whirlpool service is no longer available.

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So health insurance is broken.

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I know it.

200
00:19:16,546 --> 00:19:17,186
You know it.

201
00:19:17,186 --> 00:19:26,906
So an open enrollment rolls around and all those health insurance companies start hoping you'll just re-sign, eyes closed, for the same overpriced plan with confusing fine print.

202
00:19:27,126 --> 00:19:30,666
It feels like they're betting on your inaction, but we deserve better than that.

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00:19:30,986 --> 00:19:34,166
That's why I started looking for something different for me and my family.

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00:19:34,646 --> 00:19:35,386
Something honest.

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00:19:35,746 --> 00:19:37,086
That's when I found CrowdHealth.

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00:19:37,546 --> 00:19:39,506
With CrowdHealth, it's not about profits.

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00:19:39,806 --> 00:19:41,446
It's about people and community.

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00:19:41,446 --> 00:19:46,826
You get a team that helps negotiate your bills, access to low-cost prescriptions and lab tests.

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00:19:47,186 --> 00:19:49,486
and a list of doctors who don't treat you like a number.

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00:19:49,886 --> 00:19:53,186
And if something major happens, you cover the first $500.

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00:19:53,706 --> 00:19:56,046
Then the crowd steps in to help share the rest.

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00:19:56,046 --> 00:19:57,226
It feels real.

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00:19:57,666 --> 00:20:00,066
It feels like taking care of your health the way it should be.

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00:20:00,486 --> 00:20:02,406
Simple, direct, and human.

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00:20:02,986 --> 00:20:08,146
Thousands of members already say CrowdHealth saved them tens of thousands of dollars over traditional insurance.

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00:20:08,566 --> 00:20:11,726
And with many subsidy programs ending and costs rising,

217
00:20:12,166 --> 00:20:15,266
there's never been a more important time to take charge of your health care.

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00:20:15,266 --> 00:20:18,846
So this open enrollment, don't sign because you're told to.

219
00:20:19,206 --> 00:20:20,406
Sign because you choose to.

220
00:20:20,906 --> 00:20:25,446
If you're ready to join a community that looks out for you, give CrowdHealth a try.

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00:20:25,806 --> 00:20:33,486
Join CrowdHealth to get started today for $99 for your first three months using code MATRIX at joincrowdhealth.com.

222
00:20:33,766 --> 00:20:35,286
CrowdHealth is not insurance.

223
00:20:35,846 --> 00:20:37,786
Opt out. Take your power back.

224
00:20:38,066 --> 00:20:38,986
This is how we win.

225
00:20:38,986 --> 00:20:45,826
Maybe going now from the raid to the trial,

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I believe people and coders that are working on tools for privacy and self-custody are freedom fighters.

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And depending on your ability to remain anonymous, there's personal risk.

228
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And so maybe we could talk about the trial.

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And you start maybe in the trial thinking, we're on solid ground here.

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Maybe we could describe like maybe the way you were thinking going into the trial as a team and then how that developed.

231
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So going into it, we were very confident.

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You know, we we knew that these are conspiracy charges.

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And with conspiracy charges, they're supposed to prove that that these two parties conspired to commit a crime.

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And that didn't happen. So we're like, OK, we can prove this.

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They're confused. They don't understand the technology.

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we'll be able to explain it. You know, we'll be able to explain it. They'll see that, well,

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we didn't have custody. So we couldn't have been conspiring to, you know, operate in an

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unlicensed money service business. We weren't a money service business because we didn't have

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custody of people's funds. That's kind of par for the course of being a money service business.

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And, you know, they never conspired with any criminals to launder money. In fact, the service

241
00:21:59,806 --> 00:22:06,866
was designed, Whirlpool was designed in a way that was almost a deterrent to money launderers,

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because if you've stolen money and you want to move quickly so you can get it and cash out,

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and they're not interested in holding on to Bitcoin for a long period of time and going

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through the slow process, which is what Whirlpool was, and that's how it's designed to function,

245
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was to move slowly and you get more anonymity that way. So we're like, oh, you know, this is

246
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going to be fine. And then, you know, we saw the evidence that they had and it was all, you know,

247
00:22:40,826 --> 00:22:49,486
mis, purposefully misinterpreting or, you know, leaving out of context of, you know, tweets and

248
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these other messages where you're getting a clip this big out of thousands of messages.

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And then on top of that, Keone had done 10 years of podcasts and long form writing of explaining,

250
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this is why we're building the software. This is what it's for. This is why privacy matters

251
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to law abiding people. And then, yeah, then the trial kind of went downhill from there.

252
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I can not trial, but the court case.

253
00:23:18,866 --> 00:23:23,726
Maybe in your words, why does privacy matter to law abiding people?

254
00:23:25,186 --> 00:23:30,486
So that's, I guess I'm actually a pretty private person by nature.

255
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Like this is my first kind of foray into any kind of public speaking.

256
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I didn't have, you know, I had a private X account before this.

257
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Like I'm not on social media.

258
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Now I am.

259
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Do this, but it's privacy is about, it's not about hiding everything.

260
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It's about, you know, selectively disclosing. And we all do this, whether we admit, you know,

261
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I have nothing to hide or, you know, those phrases that people use, but, but we do it's,

262
00:23:58,606 --> 00:24:03,946
it's, I don't know. I think it's kind of almost a sense of identity of you let people in that

263
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when they earn it or different things like that. Like we have blinds on our windows,

264
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locks on our doors, you know, bathroom stalls have a door, like just, just things that there's,

265
00:24:15,186 --> 00:24:21,766
I don't know. There's something sacred, I think, about who you allow in and financial privacy,

266
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even more so due to, you know, our money tells us how you spend your money, tells so much about you,

267
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whether, you know, what kind of charities you support or political parties, or, you know,

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your religious affiliation, or, you know, I'm sure there's plenty of things people spend money on that

269
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they wouldn't want people in their lives to know about legal, you know, things that are perfectly

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legal. And there can be real consequences if things get out, I guess, you know, if you work

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for a company that's very liberal, and you happen to donate to Republican causes, we've seen that,

272
00:25:01,186 --> 00:25:07,186
right? We've seen people lose jobs over such things. So yeah, that's, that's my selling on

273
00:25:07,186 --> 00:25:12,586
privacy. I couldn't agree more. I mean, I feel I'm an incredibly private person. I wouldn't want

274
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people. It's already frustrating how much leakage there is in the things we do with our money.

275
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And I would not, I don't, you know, like when you use your credit card, they could gleam your home

276
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address or different things like this. And it's just not necessary. And I wouldn't want to, you

277
00:25:30,006 --> 00:25:35,106
know, and I think about voting and the ability, you know, with financial surveillance and CBDCs,

278
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it's very Orwellian when centralized forces know and can piece together different day bases and just

279
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figure out everything about you from your spending habits.

280
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And it's even more so than centralized forces, right? There with the Bitcoin blockchain,

281
00:25:51,266 --> 00:25:57,906
it being so public, your barista at Starbucks who, you know, maybe messed up your latte and

282
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you only tipped her 5% can now know your entire net worth and also probably knows your address.

283
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from a data leak.

284
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And people have been put at physical risk

285
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and have unfortunately had physical harm done to them

286
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due to this public nature of the blockchain.

287
00:26:18,066 --> 00:26:20,426
Yeah, and that's why there's so much more work

288
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that needs to be done.

289
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I wish the best minds in Bitcoin

290
00:26:23,306 --> 00:26:26,666
weren't working on stable coins and tokenized assets.

291
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And they were helping us first to secure our sats

292
00:26:31,326 --> 00:26:35,046
and to make it real money in terms of cash,

293
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now private cash is hand to hand.

294
00:26:38,446 --> 00:26:42,026
Unfortunately, cases like my husband's

295
00:26:42,026 --> 00:26:44,466
is going to have a real deterrence

296
00:26:44,466 --> 00:26:48,646
on people being willing to do this kind of development

297
00:26:48,646 --> 00:26:50,506
that is much needed, like you said.

298
00:26:50,886 --> 00:26:53,146
Yeah, I mean, I think there's already a chill.

299
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And I couldn't imagine, I think it's,

300
00:26:57,586 --> 00:26:59,406
yeah, it's so scary, I think, for developers.

301
00:26:59,406 --> 00:27:04,766
and I think it just, it doesn't make it easier if you have to be anonymous to be a developer.

302
00:27:05,126 --> 00:27:06,406
And there could be a lot of pros.

303
00:27:06,686 --> 00:27:11,626
I think there's a tremendous amount of pros to anonymity and whether you're a developer or anything.

304
00:27:11,626 --> 00:27:15,566
Maybe you just want to, you could share different, not different opinions,

305
00:27:15,806 --> 00:27:20,026
but there's a freedom to sort of anonymity online.

306
00:27:20,286 --> 00:27:22,306
So what was the trial like?

307
00:27:22,426 --> 00:27:27,126
Did you feel as an American citizen that the justice system was fair?

308
00:27:27,126 --> 00:27:30,566
that you were getting a fair shot that samurai was?

309
00:27:30,566 --> 00:27:35,566
Well, we didn't go to trial, but so the court case,

310
00:27:35,566 --> 00:27:36,626
it's been about a year.

311
00:27:36,626 --> 00:27:40,706
So it was April 24th is when we were raided.

312
00:27:40,706 --> 00:27:55,132
And I think that was probably one of the biggest shocks is how slow the justice system moves And so there is I think it was five or seven terabytes of discovery produced by the government in this case

313
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And as Bill's lead defense attorney said, if you would print that out on paper, it would go to the moon and back 22 times.

314
00:28:04,492 --> 00:28:18,272
So this is an immense amount of data that had to be sorted through by lawyers because, you know, the prosecution doesn't give you a little file saying, here's all of our evidence we're going to use.

315
00:28:18,352 --> 00:28:22,992
No, you have to go through every single piece, which obviously takes time, takes money.

316
00:28:23,432 --> 00:28:27,212
And so that was months and months of work.

317
00:28:27,212 --> 00:28:37,472
And then through that discovery, our attorney thought to ask the prosecution if they had ever had a conversation with FinCEN.

318
00:28:37,692 --> 00:28:43,792
And FinCEN is the Financial Enforcement and Crime Network regulator.

319
00:28:44,132 --> 00:28:49,752
And their job is to regulate money service businesses and illicit finance.

320
00:28:50,452 --> 00:28:53,372
And they put out guidance.

321
00:28:53,372 --> 00:28:56,512
They did one in 2013 and then again in 2019.

322
00:28:57,212 --> 00:29:04,272
And that's the guidance that everyone in the industry had been following as to who needs to get a license and who doesn't.

323
00:29:05,192 --> 00:29:18,752
And the kind of understanding of that was if you're a custodian, if you hold people's money, if people are able to buy and sell Bitcoin through your services, then you need a money service business license.

324
00:29:18,752 --> 00:29:30,912
There was even a specific in the 2019 regulation that mentioned non-custodial anonymizing software providers, which is what Whirlpool would have fallen under.

325
00:29:31,472 --> 00:29:34,592
And it says, again, as long as you don't take custody, you're fine.

326
00:29:34,672 --> 00:29:35,512
You don't need a license.

327
00:29:36,612 --> 00:29:43,372
So our attorney asked the prosecution, have you had any communications with them about our client Samurai Wallet?

328
00:29:44,152 --> 00:29:46,692
And they said, oh, in fact, we did.

329
00:29:46,692 --> 00:29:53,612
we did have some communications. We spoke with them six months before we indicted. And in this,

330
00:29:53,732 --> 00:29:57,972
you know, this letter, they said, No, they don't take custody. We don't think they need a license.

331
00:29:58,432 --> 00:30:04,692
And they had hidden this from us. This was a year into the case. And that's what's known as a Brady

332
00:30:04,692 --> 00:30:09,492
violation. It's exculpatory evidence that they hid. And that's something that they definitely

333
00:30:09,492 --> 00:30:15,132
should have given over. So that was, you know, we're like, this is it, right? They're going to

334
00:30:15,132 --> 00:30:21,292
dismiss the case. On top of that, there's something called a motion to dismiss. And a motion to dismiss

335
00:30:21,292 --> 00:30:28,632
takes the indictment as fact. So you're not arguing the facts of the indictment. You're just saying,

336
00:30:28,972 --> 00:30:34,212
even if all of this is true, which, you know, it's not, but even if all this is true,

337
00:30:34,772 --> 00:30:39,992
due to the law, the way that, you know, the letter of the law, you cannot, you know, this cannot

338
00:30:39,992 --> 00:30:47,532
be a conviction. They didn't break the law. And so we spent a year and a half preparing all this

339
00:30:47,532 --> 00:30:52,972
to go before the judge. And our judge at the time was Judge Berman. A few days, I think it was three,

340
00:30:52,972 --> 00:30:58,712
four days, something like that, before we're going to make arguments, oral arguments on the

341
00:30:58,712 --> 00:31:05,232
motion to dismiss, on the Brady violation to see if he's going to do anything about this.

342
00:31:05,232 --> 00:31:11,832
And there are some other things, amicus briefs, which are, you know, industry participants will write advising the courts.

343
00:31:12,112 --> 00:31:13,832
You know, it's known as friend of the court letters.

344
00:31:14,752 --> 00:31:19,952
So there's a bunch of things that this is going to be our big push before Judge Berman.

345
00:31:20,332 --> 00:31:23,672
A few days before we're going there, the judge gets changed.

346
00:31:24,192 --> 00:31:25,972
We don't know why, so I don't know why.

347
00:31:26,432 --> 00:31:29,312
And our new judge is Denise Coat.

348
00:31:29,312 --> 00:31:36,332
She was the former head prosecutor in the criminal division of SDNY.

349
00:31:36,632 --> 00:31:39,432
Those are the prosecutors that were bringing charges against us.

350
00:31:39,852 --> 00:31:49,472
And our first appearance in front of her, she comes out and she says, I'm denying all of these motions and thank you, goodbye.

351
00:31:49,932 --> 00:31:50,372
Pretty much.

352
00:31:50,372 --> 00:31:57,212
She gave no explanation as to why she was denying our motions, either orally or in writing.

353
00:31:57,212 --> 00:32:06,112
and we were stunned. Our attorneys were stunned. They were prepared to be arguing our case as to

354
00:32:06,112 --> 00:32:11,852
why it should be dismissed and why she needs to hold the prosecution accountable for breaking

355
00:32:11,852 --> 00:32:19,792
the rules of the court and violating Brady. And it was maybe a 10-minute conference in front of her.

356
00:32:19,792 --> 00:32:25,432
And at that point, we realized this isn't going to go well. There's no justice to be had here.

357
00:32:25,432 --> 00:32:28,352
is really disheartening, right?

358
00:32:28,432 --> 00:32:31,172
You think, especially, you know, you're learning school

359
00:32:31,172 --> 00:32:34,712
that America's criminal justice system is the best in the world.

360
00:32:34,872 --> 00:32:37,872
And I'm sure, you know, what it's founded on, it is.

361
00:32:38,292 --> 00:32:40,892
But in practice, in the federal system,

362
00:32:41,452 --> 00:32:44,352
at least the way we've experienced it, it wasn't.

363
00:32:44,992 --> 00:32:48,632
You know, we had lies, manipulations,

364
00:32:49,152 --> 00:32:52,452
and a judge acting as the fifth prosecutor from the bench.

365
00:32:52,452 --> 00:32:57,992
So that's really where kind of our whole thoughts about taking this to trial changed.

366
00:32:58,432 --> 00:33:01,472
Right. When was that, this moment with the judge?

367
00:33:02,352 --> 00:33:09,172
Not 100%. I think it was October. It may have been earlier. I don't have that exact date.

368
00:33:09,672 --> 00:33:10,172
2024?

369
00:33:11,092 --> 00:33:18,432
No, no, 2025. So we were about a year and a half or a year plus into preparing all those motions

370
00:33:18,432 --> 00:33:21,992
and millions of dollars into preparing all these motions.

371
00:33:22,212 --> 00:33:24,032
And for her to go, nah, denied.

372
00:33:25,092 --> 00:33:25,312
Right.

373
00:33:25,932 --> 00:33:28,332
And were you in New York?

374
00:33:28,692 --> 00:33:32,012
Yeah, I attended every conference,

375
00:33:32,212 --> 00:33:37,152
every attorney meeting I was present for.

376
00:33:37,212 --> 00:33:38,772
I wanted to be there to support Keone.

377
00:33:39,232 --> 00:33:41,512
And so why was this in New York?

378
00:33:41,512 --> 00:33:47,612
Why is SDNY, the nickname is Sovereign District of New York, I guess,

379
00:33:47,612 --> 00:33:51,112
But why are they presiding over this?

380
00:33:52,492 --> 00:33:53,732
That's a good question.

381
00:33:54,232 --> 00:33:57,592
So Samurai was blockchain only.

382
00:33:57,752 --> 00:34:00,272
They didn't have any bank account, any fiat bank accounts.

383
00:34:00,492 --> 00:34:02,232
They didn't do business in New York.

384
00:34:03,212 --> 00:34:04,932
Keone hadn't been to New York in years.

385
00:34:05,472 --> 00:34:15,072
But apparently the way that they get jurisdiction in cases like this is an FBI agent downloaded Samurai Wallet off of Google Play,

386
00:34:15,072 --> 00:34:19,772
walked down onto the streets of Manhattan and made a Bitcoin transaction.

387
00:34:20,412 --> 00:34:23,712
And that's all it takes for them to say, we have jurisdiction.

388
00:34:24,572 --> 00:34:26,092
So simple as that.

389
00:34:26,472 --> 00:34:32,992
And then I guess at some point between October and now there was a plea.

390
00:34:33,652 --> 00:34:33,892
Yeah.

391
00:34:34,052 --> 00:34:37,432
So after our first appearance in front of Judge Coat,

392
00:34:37,552 --> 00:34:40,052
we had pretty frank discussion with our attorneys

393
00:34:40,052 --> 00:34:42,972
and they kind of informed us of,

394
00:34:44,332 --> 00:34:45,752
and some other people as well,

395
00:34:45,852 --> 00:34:47,212
that she had a reputation.

396
00:34:47,412 --> 00:34:51,572
She was a no-nonsense kind of pro-prosecution.

397
00:34:52,292 --> 00:34:54,992
If you are convicted, she will give you the max

398
00:34:54,992 --> 00:34:56,572
and with a smile.

399
00:34:57,852 --> 00:35:01,892
And also the fact that we probably would not be able

400
00:35:01,892 --> 00:35:05,352
to present an offense of advice of counsel

401
00:35:05,352 --> 00:35:07,452
or kind of a lot of other things.

402
00:35:07,452 --> 00:35:14,072
she just wasn't going to allow that. I think a lot of people maybe don't realize the power that

403
00:35:14,072 --> 00:35:20,252
a judge has in a courtroom. So it's not just, oh, you go in front of the jury and present your case.

404
00:35:20,532 --> 00:35:26,652
There's so many steps beforehand and the judge decides, you know, what evidence the jury is going

405
00:35:26,652 --> 00:35:31,872
to be allowed to hear, what kind of experts you can put on the stand, what even theory of defense

406
00:35:31,872 --> 00:35:38,232
you're allowed to present down to in Roman Storm's case in the same Southern District of New York,

407
00:35:38,712 --> 00:35:44,492
I think their judge, Fela, she kind of put stipulations on words. So I don't think they

408
00:35:44,492 --> 00:35:51,692
were allowed to use the word privacy. So like there's there's so much that they are a judge is

409
00:35:51,692 --> 00:35:58,332
the king or queen of their courtroom. So they really do control what happens and they they do

410
00:35:58,332 --> 00:36:02,732
control the outcome in a way. It really depends on your judge whether you win or lose a case.

411
00:36:02,832 --> 00:36:10,492
There is one, and I don't recall what the case was, but fairly recently that went to two kind of

412
00:36:10,492 --> 00:36:15,932
in front of two different judges and, you know, one judge, they lost in front of the other one,

413
00:36:15,972 --> 00:36:20,772
they won. So it really is that arbitrary. So at that point, once we had those discussions,

414
00:36:20,772 --> 00:36:29,112
the prosecution came to us and they gave us 24 hours so you have you know here's the plea we will

415
00:36:29,112 --> 00:36:37,772
drop the conspiracy to commit money laundering if you plead to conspiracy to operate an unlicensed

416
00:36:37,772 --> 00:36:43,252
money service business and it's like a subsection of that you have 24 hours and you both have to

417
00:36:43,252 --> 00:36:49,312
agree if one of you agrees the other one doesn't deals off the table if you don't and we go to court

418
00:36:49,312 --> 00:36:58,352
and you lose, we are going to go after you for the full, I think it's $248 million.

419
00:36:58,992 --> 00:37:03,472
That's the amount that they say was transacted through Whirlpool.

420
00:37:04,092 --> 00:37:07,212
But again, they know how the software works.

421
00:37:07,272 --> 00:37:09,352
They know that they never had this money.

422
00:37:09,352 --> 00:37:15,032
So they said, well, if you pay us all the fees that you made while operating the business

423
00:37:15,032 --> 00:37:21,132
over 10 years, you pay us those fees, we'll say that's, that's, you know, good. And we won't go

424
00:37:21,132 --> 00:37:27,292
after you for this additional, additional funds that we know you, you've never had. And it was

425
00:37:27,292 --> 00:37:34,392
tough. It was, you know, a really tough decision to have to, you know, agree to something that,

426
00:37:34,692 --> 00:37:41,572
you know, you didn't do, you know, there was no intent behind. And there was a lot of back and

427
00:37:41,572 --> 00:37:46,932
forth with Keone and his allocution. Because if you are pleading, you have to stand up and

428
00:37:46,932 --> 00:37:54,472
say what you did. And the court has to accept that. And he was able to word it in a way that

429
00:37:54,472 --> 00:38:01,112
he wasn't lying. That was a really big thing for him. He's like, I will not get up and lie in court.

430
00:38:01,112 --> 00:38:10,912
So he got up and said, I developed, operated, and maintained Samurai Wallet, which users

431
00:38:10,912 --> 00:38:22,452
used to transact Bitcoin and knowing that users could, or whatever the Bitcoin could be from

432
00:38:22,452 --> 00:38:27,612
criminal proceeds, something along those lines. But it was very clear in that, that it was the

433
00:38:27,612 --> 00:38:33,172
users that were doing the transacting and the court accepted that. So that's what he pled to.

434
00:38:33,172 --> 00:38:41,312
and at sentencing uh she so you do the plea and then it's a few few months and then you go for

435
00:38:41,312 --> 00:38:47,892
sentencing and at sentencing she just clearly did not like him did not like that he had libertarian

436
00:38:47,892 --> 00:38:54,632
kind of ideologies and threw the book at him so she with the plea the max she could do was five

437
00:38:54,632 --> 00:39:04,192
years. And the max fine she could do is $250,000. The both of those were are more than pre sentencing

438
00:39:04,192 --> 00:39:10,392
report, they kind of do something and look and kind of calculate these things out. And pre sentencing

439
00:39:10,392 --> 00:39:17,632
or pre pre sentencing was for both those numbers was lower. And she she went max out. And if she

440
00:39:17,632 --> 00:39:22,512
could have given him life, she would have given him life. And at that point, you know, any doubt,

441
00:39:22,512 --> 00:39:27,892
any kind of reticence we had about taking that plea wiped away.

442
00:39:28,252 --> 00:39:32,032
But yeah, that this, it was the right choice, unfortunately.

443
00:39:32,332 --> 00:39:37,052
Unfortunately, we were kind of backed into a corner where that was the only choice.

444
00:39:37,472 --> 00:39:40,112
When it comes to Bitcoin, the rules are simple.

445
00:39:40,712 --> 00:39:45,092
Run your own node, hold your own keys, and protect your seed phrase.

446
00:39:45,532 --> 00:39:47,512
That's where MicroSeed comes in.

447
00:39:48,172 --> 00:39:52,752
Unlike bulky backups, MicroSeed is stamped onto a tiny steel washer.

448
00:39:53,452 --> 00:39:59,032
Fireproof, waterproof, and so small you can carry it anywhere or hide it in plain sight.

449
00:39:59,592 --> 00:40:04,712
Go to MicroSeed.io and use the code MATRIX for a discount on your order.

450
00:40:06,392 --> 00:40:08,812
Yeah, this is so unjust, it's disgusting.

451
00:40:09,212 --> 00:40:12,012
But I'm going to try to parse it out a little bit.

452
00:40:12,012 --> 00:40:22,792
So on one hand, you know, I've always feared the law because I know it's unjust or it could just, it's not going to be good to get involved, right?

453
00:40:22,972 --> 00:40:26,952
But I never really thought about it as like an American.

454
00:40:27,412 --> 00:40:32,432
You know, maybe you get into a car accident, it's not your fault, and like you're involved with the law, right?

455
00:40:32,432 --> 00:40:42,452
Or here it sounds like, you know, if someone robs a bank, they're going to take the Ford family to jail because they made the car.

456
00:40:42,572 --> 00:40:44,012
And it's like, that's just not American.

457
00:40:44,012 --> 00:40:49,132
And like, you know, I feel like this is not a good place to live if there's no law here.

458
00:40:49,192 --> 00:40:50,092
There's no justice.

459
00:40:50,392 --> 00:40:55,032
When I say law, I mean lawfulness or, you know, things that law that makes sense.

460
00:40:55,032 --> 00:41:12,352
Yeah, representative Warren Davis said, it's like taking it's like holding Microsoft responsible, if a cartel would would use Excel. And it's it is it's as simple as that, like, the, there's nothing kind of safe, because criminals use everything.

461
00:41:12,352 --> 00:41:17,672
As you said, they use cars, they use the Internet, they use VPNs.

462
00:41:17,972 --> 00:41:23,972
If, you know, if a Bitcoin transaction, you know, isn't actually a transaction until it's confirmed by a miner.

463
00:41:24,512 --> 00:41:27,352
So are miners now, you know, money service businesses?

464
00:41:27,512 --> 00:41:28,152
I hope not.

465
00:41:28,612 --> 00:41:30,332
That's a terrible precedent.

466
00:41:30,652 --> 00:41:32,972
Yeah, I think this is a horrendous precedent.

467
00:41:33,352 --> 00:41:44,698
I do think this points to miners are next if not second in line Someone next in line This is to scare the shit out of coders developers innovators

468
00:41:45,178 --> 00:41:47,238
Really, that's the thing.

469
00:41:47,338 --> 00:41:49,438
It's like the coding is just the tool to innovate.

470
00:41:50,098 --> 00:41:59,098
And what I'm still trying to like slice and dice here a bit is users can do bad things and say, okay, well, if users were doing money laundering, that's bad.

471
00:41:59,098 --> 00:42:07,818
But I think the notion of custody and or privacy being bad in of itself, which is what I think the government's really after.

472
00:42:08,278 --> 00:42:14,498
When you said the judge didn't like his sort of libertarian leanings or what did you mean by that?

473
00:42:14,498 --> 00:42:25,758
She she called it out and sentencing that due to that somehow because of his beliefs that that that equated to him thinking he was above the law.

474
00:42:25,758 --> 00:42:33,318
And it's like, no, we were following what the law was and what the whole industry was following.

475
00:42:33,978 --> 00:42:41,978
So, yeah, again, the hostility and the vitriol that she was kind of spewing from the bench was shocking.

476
00:42:41,978 --> 00:42:55,118
But it shouldn't be that shocking when another judge within that same courthouse, the same SDNY, made a comment that cryptocurrencies is good for nothing but criminals and scams.

477
00:42:55,118 --> 00:43:14,778
So this really is their opinion of, you know, industry that millions of people use. And yeah, I don't I don't know how you get past that. Right. They're and there doesn't seem to be any repercussions for them, at least yet. Hopefully that'll change. But currently.

478
00:43:14,778 --> 00:43:21,958
Right. And SDNY Southern District of New York is also where Ross Ulbricht was prosecuted, I believe.

479
00:43:22,058 --> 00:43:31,158
And so was President Trump. Yeah, I really believe Ross was unjustly persecuted and a political prisoner.

480
00:43:31,158 --> 00:43:39,218
And they really, I think that with the sentencing made an example of him and I think also held back a lot of evidence and what was happening in parallel trials.

481
00:43:39,218 --> 00:43:42,938
and you start learning about how judges are appointed

482
00:43:42,938 --> 00:43:46,898
and what you're saying with the judge being changed at the last minute

483
00:43:46,898 --> 00:43:50,858
and then all the motions are not even heard or sort of explained,

484
00:43:51,378 --> 00:43:54,218
sort of really just feels incredibly frustrating.

485
00:43:54,638 --> 00:43:59,378
What was the reaction like from the community?

486
00:43:59,958 --> 00:44:00,878
How has that been?

487
00:44:01,058 --> 00:44:03,518
I feel like word really started to break

488
00:44:03,518 --> 00:44:06,538
and people started to gain some sense of urgency

489
00:44:06,538 --> 00:44:08,918
when we got a lot more clarity

490
00:44:08,918 --> 00:44:13,518
And I honestly, I felt I came to it very late because I just didn't understand what was at stake.

491
00:44:13,738 --> 00:44:17,178
I think we all know the Bitcoin community could be quite immature at times.

492
00:44:17,698 --> 00:44:18,998
And there is no community, right?

493
00:44:19,058 --> 00:44:20,298
There's no group.

494
00:44:20,798 --> 00:44:29,118
But wherever people go to chit chat, right, some of it could be really immature and we can get involved in issues that get us sidetracked from important ones like this.

495
00:44:29,238 --> 00:44:30,898
But what has it been like?

496
00:44:31,238 --> 00:44:33,658
So I think, you know, you say there's no community.

497
00:44:33,798 --> 00:44:37,698
I think there's a lot of little separate communities within the Bitcoin space.

498
00:44:37,698 --> 00:44:42,038
and kind of the privacy community, you know, if you will,

499
00:44:42,118 --> 00:44:47,218
and then users of Samurai Wallet and some other softwares were,

500
00:44:47,898 --> 00:44:49,658
you know, they knew about it from the start

501
00:44:49,658 --> 00:44:52,058
and had been very vocal, but it did take a while.

502
00:44:52,058 --> 00:44:54,738
And it took till after Keone could really come out

503
00:44:54,738 --> 00:44:57,278
and speak on his own behalf because, you know,

504
00:44:57,318 --> 00:44:59,238
your buys like don't say anything,

505
00:44:59,338 --> 00:45:01,898
especially when a case is completely built off of them,

506
00:45:02,458 --> 00:45:05,098
you know, taking things out of context that you said,

507
00:45:05,098 --> 00:45:22,098
You know, you don't want to add any more fuel to their fire. So once sentencing was done, he was able to speak. And, you know, people like yourself and Bob from Bitcoin Veterans and just, you know, and Puncher and just all these people kind of came on board and heard about it and realized what was gone.

508
00:45:22,098 --> 00:45:29,818
And it was really amazing kind of having that swell of support and seeing that other people got it, right?

509
00:45:29,918 --> 00:45:37,098
That it wasn't just because it is it's such and, you know, I've spoken to other people that have had similar dealings.

510
00:45:37,098 --> 00:45:42,498
You know, they all seem to be conspiracy charges and this and that from the federal government.

511
00:45:43,258 --> 00:45:49,698
And it's a very isolating feeling when you're going against the power of the state.

512
00:45:49,698 --> 00:46:01,958
And so to have that support from, I'll use community from Bitcoiners, we'll say, has been really great.

513
00:46:02,118 --> 00:46:10,818
Just to know that people understand you, they believe you, they read the evidence themselves and they come to the same conclusion you have.

514
00:46:11,538 --> 00:46:15,098
It's validating, which is kind of needed.

515
00:46:15,098 --> 00:46:26,278
Yeah, I found this is one of those things where, you know, just as a Bitcoin, there's all these expressions, don't trust, verify, you know, things validate for yourself, do your own research.

516
00:46:26,798 --> 00:46:28,078
But you have to put in the time.

517
00:46:30,218 --> 00:46:34,598
Fortunately, in a short amount of time, you can rock this.

518
00:46:34,738 --> 00:46:36,098
It takes a few minutes.

519
00:46:36,218 --> 00:46:40,518
It takes about probably 45 minutes to relearn the law or learn the law.

520
00:46:40,518 --> 00:46:47,918
and after about 25 minutes you're like holy shit this is just kind of clear that they don't belong

521
00:46:47,918 --> 00:46:55,078
in prison the i don't think any there's anything done wrong here at all and um it sounds like

522
00:46:55,078 --> 00:47:01,958
sdny continues to go rogue and the scary thing is the implications obviously on a personal level

523
00:47:01,958 --> 00:47:07,398
for you but but for all of us and i think this is global i think sort of american law

524
00:47:07,398 --> 00:47:13,418
and precedent. And this sort of, this is sort of like soft precedent where it's not legal precedent,

525
00:47:13,418 --> 00:47:20,158
but I think, you know, this is sort of, you know, very scary. I think what was the process like of

526
00:47:20,158 --> 00:47:25,858
driving Keone to prison? Um, so that was hard. So that was another kind of one of,

527
00:47:26,018 --> 00:47:34,358
one of the judges last little dig she could get is oftentimes between sentencing and, you know,

528
00:47:34,358 --> 00:47:37,958
if you're out on bail, you can do something called self-surrender.

529
00:47:38,878 --> 00:47:43,998
And oftentimes I'll take months because, again, bureaucracies move slowly.

530
00:47:44,818 --> 00:47:47,818
And once it's sent from the courts, you're sentenced,

531
00:47:47,998 --> 00:47:49,738
and it gets sent to the Bureau of Prisons,

532
00:47:50,218 --> 00:47:52,878
and they have to determine various things.

533
00:47:52,978 --> 00:47:55,898
You know, they try to keep you close to family and, you know,

534
00:47:55,898 --> 00:48:00,278
depending on what level of security you need.

535
00:48:00,278 --> 00:48:09,658
If you're violent, obviously you need to go to a high security prison versus, you know, Keote who's never had any interactions with the law is nonviolent.

536
00:48:10,418 --> 00:48:16,338
So he was designated to a camp and that process usually takes some time.

537
00:48:17,118 --> 00:48:25,078
But she gave us a little over a month from sentencing to you need to report to your prison.

538
00:48:25,078 --> 00:48:34,358
If you don't have a prison, you need to come back to New York and surrender and you'll be put in the MDC, which is one of the worst jails in the country.

539
00:48:34,638 --> 00:48:40,378
Thankfully, we were able to get a designation and driving down.

540
00:48:40,938 --> 00:48:49,718
And it was weird. I think I think Keone mentioned this in a letter that we kind of didn't focus on where we were going.

541
00:48:49,718 --> 00:48:54,178
We're big kind of road trippers in general. We just prefer to drive.

542
00:48:54,178 --> 00:49:04,258
And oftentimes we drive off highway. And so and being kind of not able to go anywhere for so long, it almost felt very natural and comfortable.

543
00:49:04,258 --> 00:49:13,078
And that just sitting together in a car because you just can talk and talk about anything but going, you know, the destination.

544
00:49:13,998 --> 00:49:17,998
And but it was hard. It was actually pulling up to the prison.

545
00:49:17,998 --> 00:49:25,638
we had to park in the visitor's parking lot and he then had to walk away from me and walk

546
00:49:25,638 --> 00:49:31,918
to the prison and you know I wasn't sure when I was going to be able to hear from him because it

547
00:49:31,918 --> 00:49:38,398
takes a while for like you to get phone credits and just just various things and it's an unknown

548
00:49:38,398 --> 00:49:43,578
and and thankfully once I did hear from him you know I heard he was okay and and that was really

549
00:49:43,578 --> 00:49:49,378
reassuring, but, but driving away and, you know, leaving, you know, my best friend, my, my husband,

550
00:49:49,518 --> 00:49:58,618
my, my partner for, you know, 14 years, it was, it was sad, hard. Wow. Well, my, my heart goes out

551
00:49:58,618 --> 00:50:06,158
to for dealing with all this. What can we do to sort of raise awareness and continue fighting?

552
00:50:06,538 --> 00:50:11,438
You know, Keone is one of his, is his own best advocate. And that's what was, you mentioned so

553
00:50:11,438 --> 00:50:16,938
he wasn't really able to probably speak for so long and they did an amazing job speaking under

554
00:50:16,938 --> 00:50:22,478
such probably what i can't imagine such strenuous circumstances speaking so eloquently and

555
00:50:22,478 --> 00:50:28,438
articulately and really explaining the situation so people can grok it very quickly and then his

556
00:50:28,438 --> 00:50:32,838
voice kind of i mean he's gotten the letters out but it's a bit silenced but you know so what what

557
00:50:32,838 --> 00:50:39,298
can we do to kind of keep his voice live but also get keep the fight going yeah so there's a few

558
00:50:39,298 --> 00:50:47,438
things. And, you know, the first thing would be to sign the petition for a pardon. That's

559
00:50:47,438 --> 00:50:53,278
really what we're going for. When you when you do a plea deal, you unless there's like

560
00:50:53,278 --> 00:50:58,858
constitutional grounds that you can do, you're signing really signing away any any options for

561
00:50:58,858 --> 00:51:05,258
appeals or anything like that. So really, a pardon is our option, our best option, only option. And

562
00:51:05,258 --> 00:51:10,638
some people think, oh, signing a petition, what good does that do? But, you know, you mentioned

563
00:51:10,638 --> 00:51:17,218
Ross earlier, Lynn, his mother, and Ross himself both said that, you know, it really does matter.

564
00:51:17,758 --> 00:51:23,658
Every signature, when you can take it to, you know, the president or, you know, the president's

565
00:51:23,658 --> 00:51:27,818
kind of representatives and say, look, people care about this issue. This is going to be

566
00:51:27,818 --> 00:51:33,678
a popular choice. You know, they're asking for it. Other people see the injustice that was,

567
00:51:33,678 --> 00:51:40,358
you know, done here. So definitely sign. The other thing, if you're, you know, willing and able,

568
00:51:40,718 --> 00:51:44,798
court cases are very, very expensive. They took our life savings, we're massively in debt.

569
00:51:44,978 --> 00:51:50,938
Same with, you know, Bill and Sabrina, and with them being away, if people are willing to donate

570
00:51:50,938 --> 00:51:56,838
through the billandkeone.org, there's Bitcoin donation options, and as well as a give, send,

571
00:51:56,838 --> 00:52:05,678
go. It, you know, really does go a long way. And then, you know, if anyone has any connections,

572
00:52:05,678 --> 00:52:11,798
or just, you know, to keep raising awareness, whether or not be on X, or writing to your,

573
00:52:11,858 --> 00:52:16,698
you know, senators or representatives, being courteous and respectful, right? We don't want

574
00:52:16,698 --> 00:52:20,498
to turn them against us, but letting them know, again, it's just another way to say, you know,

575
00:52:20,498 --> 00:52:23,618
this is a cause that matters to Bitcoiners.

576
00:52:24,518 --> 00:52:29,438
And, you know, something we're willing to give our time and our voices to.

577
00:52:29,998 --> 00:52:36,918
If anyone would like to write to him, his address is also on the BillAndKeone.org website.

578
00:52:37,478 --> 00:52:40,418
He's received letters so far and he's been writing back.

579
00:52:40,418 --> 00:52:44,758
And, you know, I think you do feel so, you know, especially in this day and age, right,

580
00:52:44,758 --> 00:52:49,138
where we do have X and other social medias where you're constantly connected with people

581
00:52:49,138 --> 00:52:54,758
to then be put in a space where they limit your amount of minutes you can have on the phone.

582
00:52:55,078 --> 00:53:01,978
They, you know, it's everything's very restricted and limited. And so just that connection to

583
00:53:01,978 --> 00:53:06,538
the outside world and, you know, it could just be sharing a funny story or, you know,

584
00:53:06,598 --> 00:53:12,398
it doesn't have to be anything serious. But I, but I know he, he'd appreciate that.

585
00:53:12,838 --> 00:53:17,598
Yeah. We'll put the links in the show notes. I think the rage is publishing his letters. I

586
00:53:17,598 --> 00:53:23,338
encourage people to read them. They're very well written, very insightful. A couple more just points

587
00:53:23,338 --> 00:53:30,498
that we want to touch on before we roll out. So didn't Trump issue a letter or guidance to the DOJ

588
00:53:30,498 --> 00:53:40,678
in Washington? Yeah. So the Deputy AG, Todd Blanche, he wrote a, under Trump's guidance,

589
00:53:40,678 --> 00:53:47,858
wrote a letter that said, we, as the Department of Justice, are no longer going to be prosecuting

590
00:53:47,858 --> 00:53:55,858
developers or manufacturers of software for the actions of the users. You need to go after the

591
00:53:55,858 --> 00:54:00,478
real criminals. And I think, I don't know, I agree with that. I think most Americans would,

592
00:54:00,518 --> 00:54:04,498
that you go after the criminal, you don't go after other people. That's, you know,

593
00:54:04,498 --> 00:54:11,218
self-responsibility and all that. And this was something that the prosecutors clearly were aware

594
00:54:11,218 --> 00:54:17,338
of because they hemmed and hawed and tried to skirt their way around it and decided to drop.

595
00:54:17,338 --> 00:54:23,778
So what they dropped is what they're charged under was conspiracy under 1960. It's the money,

596
00:54:23,838 --> 00:54:28,918
it's the money service business. And the first part that they dropped was operating a money

597
00:54:28,918 --> 00:54:35,498
service business without a license. And then if you fall under that to the, I think it's,

598
00:54:35,898 --> 00:54:50,358
I could look it up real quick. So they dropped the 1960 B1B and then recharged under 1960 B1C.

599
00:54:51,038 --> 00:54:57,118
1960 B1C states that if you are a money service business, and if you're a money service business,

600
00:54:57,118 --> 00:55:03,778
used, you do things like KYC and AML. And so if you are a money service business, and they still

601
00:55:03,778 --> 00:55:12,098
is knowingly transacting, I think it's transmitting funds from criminal offenses or otherwise used to

602
00:55:12,098 --> 00:55:19,118
support unlawful activity, then it's an additional charge that they can file against you. But,

603
00:55:19,398 --> 00:55:24,298
and the law is supposed to be written for a person of average intelligence to be able to understand.

604
00:55:24,298 --> 00:55:29,318
And if there's any ambiguity, it's supposed to fall in the defense's favor.

605
00:55:29,958 --> 00:55:32,638
So my understanding is if there's a subsection,

606
00:55:32,664 --> 00:55:38,084
then the top bracket must apply for then the subsection to apply.

607
00:55:38,204 --> 00:55:41,424
I think that's kind of common sense of hierarchical structures.

608
00:55:41,924 --> 00:55:44,444
They disagreed, and so they charged a subsection

609
00:55:44,444 --> 00:55:47,624
when the previous section didn't apply.

610
00:55:48,164 --> 00:55:52,104
And that's how they got around, I guess, the Blanche memo.

611
00:55:52,844 --> 00:55:54,364
I don't see the logic.

612
00:55:55,364 --> 00:55:58,644
Well, you know, Trump administration has really touted America

613
00:55:58,644 --> 00:56:00,324
as being the Bitcoin capital of the world,

614
00:56:00,324 --> 00:56:09,024
And this is not what the Bitcoin capital world would do to developers and innovators to have innovation here.

615
00:56:09,024 --> 00:56:21,764
I do want to point out that there were other cases that at the time of the Blanche memo in other court districts outside of the SDNY that did drop cases.

616
00:56:22,124 --> 00:56:31,204
So they listened to the Blanche memo and said, OK, we're not we're no longer going to prosecute people for the actions of their users.

617
00:56:31,864 --> 00:56:38,664
SDNY, there's two cases. There's also the Tornado Cash, which is an Ethereum protocol.

618
00:56:39,024 --> 00:56:41,144
that they didn't drop theirs and they didn't drop ours.

619
00:56:41,144 --> 00:56:44,424
And they did this kind of switcheroo with, with, you know, charges.

620
00:56:45,244 --> 00:56:47,424
So some people did.

621
00:56:48,044 --> 00:56:51,864
I think that's another one we have to pick up the torch on because, um,

622
00:56:51,864 --> 00:56:55,344
the fight for freedom is real and it affects wherever it is. We have to,

623
00:56:55,424 --> 00:56:57,804
that's where we have to defend freedom and privacy,

624
00:56:57,904 --> 00:57:01,704
the right for privacy and custody, self-custody. Um,

625
00:57:01,724 --> 00:57:07,504
and then they seized Bitcoin, I guess, as part of the deal, um,

626
00:57:07,504 --> 00:57:09,944
Well, they couldn't seize it.

627
00:57:09,944 --> 00:57:10,824
I'm using the wrong word.

628
00:57:12,324 --> 00:57:18,464
But just because, yeah, if you have proper, I guess, Bitcoin hygiene, then they couldn't seize it.

629
00:57:18,644 --> 00:57:20,104
But they did part of the agreement.

630
00:57:20,284 --> 00:57:25,764
They did have to send the prosecution the Bitcoin.

631
00:57:25,904 --> 00:57:28,044
Originally, they had actually asked.

632
00:57:28,144 --> 00:57:33,824
They wanted it in fiat, but there was just under 6.4 million.

633
00:57:34,444 --> 00:57:35,984
We had no way to get that.

634
00:57:35,984 --> 00:57:40,984
So finally, they relented and agreed to accept it in Bitcoin.

635
00:57:40,984 --> 00:58:03,274
But in the writing and I think this is where you going with this when they sent it over it stated that they were going to be selling it which again ignores another of President Trump executive orders because this money it was a clean forfeiture meaning there was no injured parties that were awaiting restitution

636
00:58:03,274 --> 00:58:12,054
Like there would be if this was, you know, if there was a victim or something, money couldn't go directly to the strategic Bitcoin reserve in that case.

637
00:58:12,054 --> 00:58:17,174
But as this was a clean forfeiture, they were supposed to under the executive order.

638
00:58:17,674 --> 00:58:20,454
This Bitcoin would have been part of that strategic Bitcoin reserve.

639
00:58:20,574 --> 00:58:21,954
Actually, I think it may have been the first.

640
00:58:22,414 --> 00:58:25,054
I'm not sure about that, but that's not what they did.

641
00:58:25,514 --> 00:58:25,574
Wow.

642
00:58:25,794 --> 00:58:27,754
And so there's like no victims here.

643
00:58:28,234 --> 00:58:30,514
And we can go into it.

644
00:58:30,674 --> 00:58:34,134
We don't need to go into the details here, but this is my conversation with Keone.

645
00:58:34,254 --> 00:58:35,714
You can look up for yourselves if you're listening.

646
00:58:35,874 --> 00:58:38,654
But the fine was egregious.

647
00:58:38,654 --> 00:58:45,014
the fact that they're selling the Bitcoin is going against Trump administration policy,

648
00:58:45,174 --> 00:58:48,814
which that has its own maybe flaws.

649
00:58:49,354 --> 00:58:54,854
But, you know, it would be just really this is just terrible and unfortunate.

650
00:58:55,554 --> 00:59:00,474
You know, this is brave of you to step into the public eye to support your husband.

651
00:59:00,474 --> 00:59:06,814
And it's supporting all of us in the fight for privacy and financial freedom.

652
00:59:06,814 --> 00:59:09,854
because if the way things are going,

653
00:59:10,054 --> 00:59:11,794
if we, this is a slippery slope

654
00:59:11,794 --> 00:59:14,914
to us not being able to vote with our money.

655
00:59:15,034 --> 00:59:16,594
And that might be even like,

656
00:59:16,674 --> 00:59:21,094
it really might affect real voting and politicking.

657
00:59:21,334 --> 00:59:22,854
And even if you don't want to be in politics,

658
00:59:22,854 --> 00:59:26,494
it might affect how you're able to acquire goods

659
00:59:26,494 --> 00:59:29,014
and what you can buy and sell and trade

660
00:59:29,014 --> 00:59:30,834
with everybody, including your neighbors.

661
00:59:31,654 --> 00:59:35,914
Yeah, it's on the way to being a social credit system, right?

662
00:59:35,914 --> 00:59:41,334
like by China is 100 percent in a lot of ways. And something to point out here, I think that I

663
00:59:41,334 --> 00:59:45,354
learned through this or relearned, you know, or you remember, but just sort of the difference when

664
00:59:45,354 --> 00:59:50,394
people think about sort of black and gray and white markets. I mean, if you sell an apple pie

665
00:59:50,394 --> 00:59:57,914
to your neighbor, that's a black market sale. And this is right. So there's nothing wrong with black

666
00:59:57,914 --> 01:00:16,544
markets And I not a fan of KYC and AML as it stands So too many people have been hurt by by poor storage practices of that data that very valuable data that unfortunately has been breached and caused a lot of harm And on top of that I think if you know

667
01:00:16,544 --> 01:00:18,964
the research that's been done into it

668
01:00:18,964 --> 01:00:21,984
hasn't really stopped money laundering, right?

669
01:00:22,144 --> 01:00:24,904
Some of the largest money launderers are banks

670
01:00:24,904 --> 01:00:29,384
that do all those kind of checks.

671
01:00:30,104 --> 01:00:33,184
Yeah, so I want to thank you again.

672
01:00:33,184 --> 01:00:38,704
I think, you know, your time is very precious and anything we could do to get the word out.

673
01:00:39,084 --> 01:00:42,044
The raid on your home was a terrifying experience.

674
01:00:42,364 --> 01:00:43,904
I mean, this involved armed agents.

675
01:00:44,584 --> 01:00:47,064
Keone and Bill were operating within legal guidelines.

676
01:00:47,684 --> 01:00:52,204
The DOJ's actions are, I mean, I think this is politically motivated.

677
01:00:52,344 --> 01:00:55,904
I think this is scary as an American citizen and a front on financial freedom.

678
01:00:56,484 --> 01:01:00,704
But it's also just a misallocation of resources against innocent American entrepreneurs.

679
01:01:00,704 --> 01:01:03,764
while there's tremendous fraud in the country.

680
01:01:04,044 --> 01:01:05,664
And privacy and financial transactions

681
01:01:05,664 --> 01:01:07,604
is a critical issue in today's society.

682
01:01:07,944 --> 01:01:10,224
So, you know, the community support is vital

683
01:01:10,224 --> 01:01:11,784
and it's even more vital going forward.

684
01:01:12,144 --> 01:01:13,764
So I hope people click on the links,

685
01:01:14,364 --> 01:01:16,424
sign the petition, donate what you can.

686
01:01:17,544 --> 01:01:19,784
And I'll leave it to you for any parting words

687
01:01:19,784 --> 01:01:21,484
and let people, again, just remind people

688
01:01:21,484 --> 01:01:24,204
where they can find you and kind of get involved.

689
01:01:24,624 --> 01:01:27,404
Well, I just want to thank you so much for having me on

690
01:01:27,404 --> 01:01:29,324
and giving me the chance to talk.

691
01:01:29,324 --> 01:01:32,944
Hopefully I did Keone some good.

692
01:01:33,144 --> 01:01:36,604
He's definitely the better speaker out of the two of us.

693
01:01:37,004 --> 01:01:38,864
So I just want to thank you first.

694
01:01:39,444 --> 01:01:45,544
And, yeah, people just, you know, please sign and keep continuing to get the message out.

695
01:01:45,664 --> 01:01:49,924
I know I'm sure it seems probably annoying to see it over and over again.

696
01:01:50,004 --> 01:01:57,724
But, you know, eventually, if we're loud enough, you know, the right people will hear and, you know, hopefully grant us a pardon.

697
01:01:57,724 --> 01:02:33,434
And as far as finding me I so you know I mentioned earlier I don really didn do social media before this And so when I set up my X account I didn really ever do it for a handle that that would be easily searchable It was never the intent So so maybe you could link that below And so people could follow me there And you know this is kind of all I all I post about Also follow at Keone K And that so there an intra prison kind of email system It very

698
01:02:33,434 --> 01:02:41,254
delayed, very, you know, it looks like it's from the early 2000s. But he sends me things and I just

699
01:02:41,254 --> 01:02:46,594
copy and paste them over that he wants posted. So anything coming from there, they are his words.

700
01:02:46,594 --> 01:02:52,574
I'm just actually clicking post so they can follow him. And then, like you said, the rage,

701
01:02:52,574 --> 01:02:58,554
There's there'll be more articles and they are. I think they're quite entertaining and kind of funny.

702
01:02:58,554 --> 01:03:04,214
I think he's a good, good writer. So, yeah. Thank you very much.

703
01:03:04,514 --> 01:03:07,874
Yeah, for sure. And we'll drop those links and people can write to him.

704
01:03:07,954 --> 01:03:11,654
They can read his letters. This is an obvious weaponization of the law.

705
01:03:12,074 --> 01:03:18,954
And, you know, one thing I'll just end on. It was President Trump mentioned Keone when a reporter asked about Keone.

706
01:03:18,954 --> 01:03:21,154
I mean, I thought that was just tremendously optimistic.

707
01:03:21,594 --> 01:03:24,194
It seems like it's on someone's, his radar,

708
01:03:24,434 --> 01:03:26,594
at least someone over there hopefully jotted it down,

709
01:03:26,974 --> 01:03:29,494
and hopefully we're here soon and this nightmare will end.

710
01:03:29,614 --> 01:03:30,454
So thank you so much.

711
01:03:30,514 --> 01:03:31,714
We'll continue to do everything we can.

712
01:03:32,174 --> 01:03:35,034
Please remember, every signature does matter.

713
01:03:35,194 --> 01:03:38,454
Even Ross's mom, Lynn Ulbricht, mentioned that.

714
01:03:38,454 --> 01:03:41,194
I think you guys are close or above 15,000 signatures,

715
01:03:41,494 --> 01:03:43,254
and that's a meaningful number,

716
01:03:43,374 --> 01:03:45,454
but we've got to get this up to hundreds of thousands.

717
01:03:45,454 --> 01:03:50,394
But we are, I think, at a faster start pace than Ross's team was at.

718
01:03:50,394 --> 01:03:52,794
But that doesn't mean we need to let up.

719
01:03:52,794 --> 01:03:54,514
We got to go like 10x harder.

720
01:03:54,514 --> 01:03:58,854
So hopefully next time we chat, we'll be at 100,000 and he'll be free way before that,

721
01:03:58,854 --> 01:03:59,854
though.

722
01:03:59,854 --> 01:04:01,214
But thank you so much.

723
01:04:01,214 --> 01:04:02,214
Be well.

724
01:04:02,214 --> 01:04:03,214
Thank you.

725
01:04:03,214 --> 01:04:06,214
Thanks for tuning in to this episode of The Bitcoin Matrix.

726
01:04:06,214 --> 01:04:10,454
If you enjoyed the conversation, don't forget to like, subscribe and drop a comment below

727
01:04:10,454 --> 01:04:12,634
with any questions or thoughts you may have.

728
01:04:12,634 --> 01:04:14,154
We'd love to hear from you.

729
01:04:14,154 --> 01:04:18,234
You can support the show by checking out our sponsors and affiliate links in the description.

730
01:04:18,474 --> 01:04:22,994
It helps keep bringing you great content while connecting you with awesome products that I believe in.

731
01:04:23,234 --> 01:04:27,034
Share this episodes with your friends, family, or anyone curious about Bitcoin.

732
01:04:27,394 --> 01:04:29,494
And let's keep growing this community together.

733
01:04:29,794 --> 01:04:33,294
Stay curious, keep stacking, and I'll catch you in the next one.

734
01:04:44,154 --> 01:04:46,214
you