Hey, hey, welcome to the Bitcoin Matrix. I'm your host, Cedric Youngelman.
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simple. Use the code matrix for a discount at microSeed.io. In this episode, I chat with Natalie
Brunel, host of Coin Stories, a top-ranked Bitcoin podcast and one of the most powerful voices in
Bitcoin education and financial media.
Natalie opens up about her family's journey through immigration and the great financial
crisis, her evolving views on capitalism and the American dream, and how Bitcoin has completely
changed her relationship with time, money, and purpose.
We also explore the role of women in Bitcoin, the deeper implications of home ownership,
rising inequality, personal empowerment, and why she sees Bitcoin as a deeply moral technology.
If you're looking to reconnect with the idea of financial freedom, discover how Bitcoin might reshape society, or simply hear an aspiring story of resilience and conviction, this conversation is for you.
If you want to buy some dope Bitcoin Matrix merch, or if you want to get in touch with me, head over to thebitcoinmatrix.com.
Also, please consider supporting the show by subscribing to the Bitcoin Matrix on the Fountain app.
And now, let's enter the Bitcoin Matrix with Natalie Brunel.
What is real?
How do you define real?
You can't jump into cash.
Cash is trash.
What do you do?
You get out.
Natalie Brunel is the host of Coin Stories, the number one Bitcoin podcast in the world.
A leading voice in Bitcoin education and media.
She's known for her powerful interviews, sharp storytelling, and ability to make complex financial topics relatable.
A first-generation immigrant and former investigative journalist, Natalie brings a unique passion for uncovering truth and empowering people through knowledge.
Her show features conversations with the most influential voices in Bitcoin and economics, consistently ranking among the top business news podcasts in the world, in the U.S.
Natalie holds a Master of Science degree in journalism from Northwestern University and has taught communication at the University of Southern California.
She also serves on the board of Semler Scientific, one of the largest public corporate Bitcoin treasury companies in the U.S.
And now Natalie is coming out with her first book, Bitcoin is for Everyone.
Why our financial system is broken and Bitcoin is the solution.
Natalie Brunel, welcome back to the Bitcoin Matrix podcast. How are you?
Hi, thank you so much for having me. Doing great. I'm so excited for this book to finally be out. It's been years in the making.
Yeah, well, it's a great book. It's fantastic. I just finished reading it. And, you know, not just with the book, but you're just killing it overall, especially, I think, sort of pushing Bitcoin into mainstream consciousness and news and things like that. I think you're one of the best speakers for it in the space and especially at that wide of an audience.
Oh, well, that's really kind of you. Thank you.
Yeah. So I would love to get into your story a bit, you know, sort of the story of an immigrant, if you will. Do you sort of remember moving here from Poland at such a young age?
I wish I had more memories from that time. You know, it's funny because I see my friends with kids now and I love being around them. And I think it's so sad that babies don't remember these moments that we have with them. Right.
And so I have very few memories because I was only in Poland until we were five.
But I do remember moving.
I remember my flight over here to the United States.
And I just remember my parents working so hard when I was young.
They worked weekends.
They worked long hours.
My dad, I mentioned this in the book, he would get up in the middle of the night basically
to scrape the car, the snow off the car outside of Chicago.
And so I thought that people were wealthy if they owned a garage.
And I went to school with a lot of people who were, I would say, like upper middle class.
And so that really encouraged me to just work hard.
And I felt like if I just get a good education and I work hard, I can make the American dream come true.
And the pain point that I think happened that made me appreciate Bitcoin down the line is that I saw my family lose everything after they had worked so hard and come to this country with nothing.
they were finally able to afford a home in the suburbs of Chicago and then they lost it in the
great financial crisis and I just thought wow here are literally I mean 10 million families
who lose their homes but the bankers who took all this risk they get bailed out and that really
skewed my perception of is the American dream true is it a lie is it achievable and and then I set
out to become a journalist and I did. And I witnessed the symptoms of what I didn't realize
was a broken monetary system. So it was actually Bitcoin that helped me connect the dots because I
was very aware of the problem. I very much understood the experience of the working class
and knowing what it means to struggle and seeing the cost of everything balloon past what your
wages and income were. And I realized that there needs to be a solution and that Bitcoin is really
the best solution that we have. So I try to guide the reader through that process of like,
let's get on the same page. There's a problem. Let's explain what the problem is and how we got
here and why Bitcoin, I think, is the best solution to that problem. Yeah. No, I think one of the
really interesting stories in the book was about your move here and how I don't think there was
even enough bedrooms for all of you to get started in the new house. And, you know, my family, we
just moved across country a few years ago to, in my mind, I think have a better life, but it was a
hard move. And I moved when I was nine years old, but across town, but to move across the world,
have to learn new languages. Maybe what was it like? Would you remember the stories of
your grandparents and how they dealt with inflation in Poland?
Yeah. So I share some of that in the book as well. I mean, Poland has gone through so much
over the last 100 years and came out of communism in the nineties, just as we moved and, and things
are drastically different today in Poland than they were when my parents were growing up, but
it was just really difficult to save. And a lot of activity happened in an underground economy
in communism, right? I mean, I share a story of how my grandparents had a friend who the husband
went to America to earn money and send it back to Poland. And there was actually a special police
that would ransack people's homes in search of cash and dollars if you were holding it because
it was illegal. And so there's a story in the book where my grandma's friend is actually holding
a baby when the officers come in to search the home for money because a neighbor had like ratted
them out. And she's holding a baby and she has the money tucked into the baby's diaper. And so
that's how she like gets away with it essentially. And, you know, people resorted to things because
in communism, when the government controls all of the resources and controls the economy totally
and controls the money, people don't have freedom.
They don't have economic mobility.
There was so much scarcity.
Like my mom talked about how many food lines
she would stand in and sometimes she would get
to the front of the line and everything was gone.
And so people don't appreciate how difficult that was
and how lucky we are to be in a country where,
I mean, this is why so many people risk their lives
to come here because there's so much opportunity here.
You can come from any background
and you can make something of yourself.
And I just think a lot of that hope
And that feeling of possibility has been lost because of how broken things have gotten and how difficult it is to achieve what was once easier, especially for one income just a generation ago.
And so I wanted the book to ultimately offer a message of hope and empowerment that we can write this ship that is sort of sinking and we can work together.
And there's something so much better on the other side because if any of your viewers or listeners are like me, I had started to lose hope in the future.
I was like, my parents sacrificed everything to come here.
And I don't even know if I'm going to be able to afford to have a family or a home or retire someday.
And I saw my parents really struggle and wonder if they made a mistake by moving here.
And so I feel like the one thing that the average person needs today is that sense of economic empowerment and hope so that they can make better decisions,
so that they can plan for their future, so that they can start their companies and take care of their kids.
And I think that, you know, the way that the system is going, we know that it can't happen in the current financial system.
Like we're just getting robbed and inflation is stealing our purchasing power and stealing our futures from us.
And Bitcoin creates so much more opportunity and a better world for all of us.
And that's why I see it as a calling to educate people about it.
Yeah. I want to talk a little bit about the American dream.
What was it like for your family going through the great financial crisis?
Maybe how did it turn things so upside down for you and your family?
because it seemed like they moved here.
You know, they're trying to create maybe a better,
more opportunities for you and themselves.
Yes.
My parents like really sacrificed everything to come here.
They didn't know the language.
They had to start from scratch.
And I think it was really just difficult for me to see
how much they were impacted by losing everything
and having to start over again in their fifties now
when it's much, much harder.
I mean, you know, it's like they should have been thinking about
in the next decade retiring.
And instead, they really had to make plans for how they were going to start over and build up from filing for bankruptcy.
And it impacted their marriage.
And one thing that, you know, maybe some people will relate to this because I've talked to a lot of the children of immigrants or the children of foreign-born parents.
And they experienced the same thing, which is that my parents didn't want me to see how bad it was.
So they kept some of that from me.
And I was kind of sheltered from seeing the worst of it because I was away and out of
at an out of state college.
And so when I would come home and I would see just how bad it had gotten and how it
really took a toll on my family, it really hit me because I felt a sense of injustice
and I felt like the promise of the American dream had been broken and I felt like it had
been hijacked.
And so if you follow my work, you'll know that I am very, very vocal and open about the
fact that I actually used to be in the tax the rich movement. I really resonated with Occupy Wall
Street. And I thought some, some force, some political entity or people need to come in there
and redistribute the wealth because it's so unfair that the rich have gotten so rich and the poor are
essentially paying the bill. And I just, I had to humble myself and I had to have an ego check
because at that time I did not understand our financial system. And like so many people that I
see today, I confused capitalism with cronyism. And the system that we have today is not capitalism
because in a system of capitalism, we wouldn't have the banks bailed out by the taxpayer and
we wouldn't have a system of constant inflation and manipulation of money. And so that's where
I had to have that realization and really go on a journey of understanding how our financial system
works, what fractional reserve banking is, who controls the money, how the supply impacts
purchasing power.
And those are things that I really want to teach through the book, because once you're
empowered with that knowledge, not only do you see the world very differently, but you
also feel like you can grab a hold of your future and you can make decisions to protect
yourself, protect your loved ones and sort of navigate this financial system that is
rigged against the working class.
And so, yeah, it was a lot of lessons learned.
But I'm grateful for the experience in the sense that it really shaped me and it lit a fire under me.
And I was determined to help my family and really make something of myself so that I could sort of heal some of the pain that was caused by that experience.
Yeah, for sure.
In terms of maybe the American dream being broken and hope, where do you think the American dream stands right now for Americans and maybe new immigrants?
Well, that's where I feel like there's an interesting dichotomy because I think that
this country still represents one of the only places in the world where the American dream,
which is a really universal feeling of just like you can come from any background and you
can succeed.
You can achieve your dreams.
You can pursue greatness.
I do think that this is a wonderful place for it.
I just feel like so many people have lost hope in it and it feels broken because they don't
have the tools.
And the tools includes the knowledge of how the financial system works.
Because when you really dig into it, if you understand that you can't save in cash, that
you need to acquire hard, scarce assets, if you start to understand how to really benefit
from the system as it is, I feel like it's in a way never been easier to get wealthy.
But because so many people are not taught this in school or they have gotten in, you
know, they're just in the grind.
they're in the rat race and they feel like there is no hope. They, they, they push aside any
opportunity to learn about how the system really works and how to empower themselves. And so they,
they put themselves in sort of a box where they're like, no, it's not possible anymore.
The American dream is absolutely dead And the surveys show it It like young people have no hope for the future And so I I really urge people and challenge people to not give up and not think that they doing something wrong I mean so many of us it like what am I doing wrong Am I am I crazy Am I stupid No Like my book is actually meant to say that no you not
It's the system that is designed in a way that drains you of your purchasing power, steals your
time from you. And there is a way to escape it. There's a way to take hold of your time and your
energy and your future. And Bitcoin, again, I think is the best solution and the best answer
to so many of these problems. It's not the only one. People will still invest in stocks and real
estate and companies and all of that. But I do believe that Bitcoin is the best solution
to the fundamental issue with our money being broken. And it is the best form of money in the
world. Well, I agree there. And we'll get into it a little bit more. What do you think fiat or
living in this current system has done to relationships and family building?
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Well, I think that these are some of the second, third and fourth order effects of a broken monetary system.
We often point out the symptoms and we call them the problems.
But I actually think that the core problem is that we have a broken incentive system where we don't even know what value is anymore because we have a centralized entity, which is the central bank that gets to print money and hands it to the banks.
By the way, the banks are the first beneficiaries of the Cantillon effect.
and that money doesn't move downstream
to benefit the average person
that is working harder than ever.
And so we see charts like the one,
there's a very stark change in the chart
that shows productivity versus wages and income.
And it forks in about 1971, early 1970s,
which you'll learn about in the book.
And it shows that the worker has gotten more productive
and we're giving up our time and energy,
but we're not making more, we're actually making less.
and Jeff Booth calls this out.
He says, asset inflation is wage deflation.
And so again, you really have to call out
what has become so broken in the system
because when someone can just print money,
they can steal your time.
So why do we have a system like that?
And what I hoped to do with the book as well
is not to take some sort of like political stance
where I'm blaming people and these people are greedy,
this side did this.
I actually look at it more from a technological standpoint
where we see how money evolves over centuries.
And we see that there was an inherent flaw
of the gold standard,
which is that gold is so difficult to transport
and settle across large distances
and across large economies.
So the natural answer to that was to paper over it.
And so you have an abstraction
and the paper represents the gold.
And we know what banks do
when people aren't all claiming their gold all at once.
They start to take on leverage.
They start to, you know, maybe issue more paper dollars than there are gold in vaults
and reserves.
And that's what I think created some of the problems that eventually led to the ultimate
fiat system that we have today, where we have no tether to any real value, nothing, nothing
that is, you know, not created by man.
And and I think that going back to gold is the wrong decision because we know that there's
a problem with gold and settling it and verifying it and having it settle long distances.
and the answer is Bitcoin.
It's something for the digital economy
where we are all connected globally
that gives opportunity to people all over the world
that they can save in Satoshi by Satoshi.
And I think that that gives so much hope
in a world where a lot of people,
no matter where they are,
feel like it's so much harder to get by
and to earn a living wage
and to save for the future.
And so I don't know if that answers your question,
but it's something that I think is really important
because if you know the history,
you understand how we got here,
you can appreciate the solution of how we make changes. Yeah. And definitely as we move forward,
but like, where do you think we are with homeownership and how people are sort of
dealing with that right now? Yeah. So, I mean, homeownership is one of the saddest statistics,
right? Because it's so core to the American dream. And I think that for many people,
especially me, when I was growing up, that was like the ultimate marker of success,
like having your dream home. And everyone's dream home probably looks different. I think mine when
I was growing up because I was outside of Chicago probably looked something like the home alone house,
right? And if you look at something like that, I mean, that home probably costs, you know,
$100,000 in the 1970s. And now today, it's probably $3 million. And you think, well,
did the home suddenly get more valuable? Why was it so easy for someone, a parent,
maybe on one income to afford that house? And today you need multiple incomes. And so that's,
again that lesson of where does monetary inflation go when they print money and those extra units get
added to the system and dilute each individual unit's purchasing power where does that money go
and one of the asset classes that we've seen has been the beneficiary of money printing and
quantitative easing has been real estate but people think that they're wealthy on paper right
the house is suddenly worth three million but think about what comes with that maintenance costs that
are sky high, insurance costs, property taxes that start to balloon, especially for people who are on
a fixed income. There are so many costs that make homeownership more and more prohibitive.
And again, if the house is now $3 million, how is someone on even a pretty solid salary going to
enter into the housing market unless they have a massive nest egg where they can put a huge down
payment down and interest rates have exacerbated the problem because they have increased monthly
payments. So home ownership for so many people now feels completely out of reach. And it's an
asset class that is mostly dominated by boomers that were lucky enough to be able to purchase
homes when they were a lot cheaper on lower incomes. And so I think that this makes people,
again, feel like a disconnect from the American dream. And it can be great to rent. Look, I've
rented for the majority of my adult life, but you don't have that same sense of ownership and equity
stake in the community if you don't own, right? Because you can always leave it. You're not really
invested in what's happening necessarily with the community and your neighbors and taxes long term.
So I think that if we all become renters, then we're literally like someone else is owning what
we work so hard for. And so I don't like that image of the world. And I don't think that that
represents the American dream. I hope that it becomes easier. And one thing that's great about
Bitcoin is when you price homes in Bitcoin, we see deflation in action. We see it getting cheaper
and cheaper and more affordable. And the price of a home has gone from like 20,000 Bitcoin down to
3.5 or something for a median priced home. So I actually see the only hope for homeownership,
especially for young people, is ones who embrace Bitcoin and start saving in an asset that is
increasing in value by an average of around 30% a year. And then they can focus on the home as a
like true utility value, right?
Like this is shelter over my head.
This is where I'm gonna start a family
and raise a family.
This is where I care about the schools.
I care about my neighbors.
That is the world that I envision
under the Bitcoin standard.
And I hope it does become easier
for young people to enter the housing market
because it's something that I think
a lot of people dream about.
Yeah, I mean, it's definitely more,
home ownership is more skin in the community,
skin in the game in the community.
But, you know, you think about rising home prices
comes with sort of rising home maintenance costs and expenses. Did you happen to have an experience
this, like maybe this summer with home maintenance repairs or something that went awry? Yeah, well,
I really wanted to help. Like I said, I'm really focused on helping my family at this point. I've
been really grateful to have had the best shot here for achieving the American dream because I
came when I was five. My brother was 16. It was much more tough for him. And my parents were in
their late thirties, early forties, and then lost everything in the great financial crisis.
So it was my goal to help my mom get a home and for me to help take care of her. And we ran into
some issues with contractors, which are, which are never fun. There are so many lessons that you
learn when you, when you end up, um, you know, experiencing what it's like to have a home. And,
and I, I'm very grateful for all those experiences. And I just hope that Bitcoin really does help me
provide for my family because I hope to have, you know, I picture a dream home in my head someday.
and I hope that Bitcoin can help me get there,
but I'm not there yet.
And I don't want to sell my Bitcoin too early
because I don't want to be in that situation
where I think about how much the Bitcoin would be worth.
But someday I hope to have my dream home,
thanks to Bitcoin.
What do you sort of make of what's happening
with maybe trust in our society?
Do you think it's on the rise or on the decline?
No, I think trust has really broken down.
I think that trust in institutions is at an all-time low.
trust in congressional members and politicians is at an all-time low. And I think that's
understandable because people aren't stupid and, you know, they're told one thing and they see
something else and they experience something else. And there's a cognitive dissonance and you,
you start to question things. And I think that's actually a sign of a healthy, you know,
questioning society that wants something better. Um, the problem I see is that they're reaching
for these political answers, right? Maybe something the opposite of what they currently
have. They're just going to go maybe to another extreme just just for some sense of hope and and
change. And the problem is it won't be fixed through politics. And we ping pong in this country
back and forth between red and blue, left and right. And nothing gets better for the average
person. I mean, look at that. The politicians are becoming enriched and the average working class
person's quality of life is deteriorating. Health care costs are skyrocketing. College tuition costs
are skyrocketing. Wages are barely ticking up. Groceries are more and more expensive. I don't
know if anyone's tracking the stake inflation that Parker Lewis has been posting, but it's
basically gone up like 100% over the last couple of years, but they tell us that inflation is
somewhere around 3%. So when your eyes and your experiences don't match what you're being told,
what your ears are hearing, you start to question things. You start to lose trust.
And I think that the only thing that will restore trust is restoring a system that actually
rewards value and creates a positive incentive loop, which is what I think Bitcoin does,
because the current system of fiat, of money printing, rewards those with access.
It rewards those who are politically close to the money printer.
It rewards the entities close to the banks.
And it hurts.
It socializes the losses.
It hurts the working class.
And so I think that's why people are frustrated.
And I want them to feel like there is hope.
I want them to feel like we can come together and create a better system.
But we need to address the core problem, which is the money.
We can't have a monopoly over money.
And I'm not talking about, you know, what we use as a medium of exchange because that
we can debate.
And, you know, what I use to pay for a cup of coffee, I'm not as worried about.
What I'm really worried about is what I store my my time and energy in.
And that's what I think Bitcoin fixes.
We need to remove the store of value from being dollars that are printed by a small group of people that we don't elect.
And we need a return store of value to something that is backed by math and energy, which is Bitcoin.
I agree. I love all that.
One thing I really want to explore maybe is how has Bitcoin changed your engagement with time as you move on to a Bitcoin standard?
Yeah, it's completely changed my perspective on time.
It's completely given me hope for the future.
I sort of alluded to this earlier, but after I was a reporter for about 10 years, I mean,
I was covering some of the worst sides of society and humanity through those stories,
you know, mass shootings, crime, political corruption.
It was just terrible news every single day, right?
I was surrounded by sort of the worst sides of humans and what they do to each other.
And I started to feel like there is no hope that things are just going to get worse and
harder. And as I get older, it's going to be harder. And I have to figure out a way that I
can survive that and hope for to be able to have a family and all of that. And Bitcoin,
it took me years to really, truly understand it because I had to go from the beginning. I had to
learn about economic theories. I had to learn what money is. I had to learn about the history of banks.
I had to put all of this into context with the other, you know, historical lessons that I was
taught in school. And it transformed my view into one of how I really, I can identify the core
problem now. And we need to solve this. And the best solutions I think come from technology and
advancements in human innovation and technology. And we've now perfectly engineered money to solve
for and account for things that you can never solve, which are things like human greed and the
differences between us and the fact that some people will have better skills than others and
some people will be more greedy than others and Bitcoin levels the playing field. There's no one
who has a special advantage. When you send a Bitcoin transaction, the Bitcoin network doesn't
care if you a billionaire or you have two Satoshis to your name Everyone can access it equally without permission And I just saw so much hope in that in a system that no one can manipulate and and take profit from and and co for themselves and that what i think
is so beautiful and powerful about what satoshi gave us because so many i mean you look at the
crypto industry at large right and you don't you don't see a lot of satoshis where they just they
create something they give it to the world and then they walk away they disappear they take no
profit. They don't want their name attached to it. They don't want companies and foundations and
they don't lobby presidents. You know, it's like, it's so, it's so different what Satoshi did. And,
and I think that we're, it's such an incredible gift to, to have something like Bitcoin and to,
to see it reach a place where it's become so diffused and powerful as a computer network,
that it can stand the test of institutions and politics and time.
And that's what gives me so much hope for the future.
So now I view the future with abundance and hope and positivity.
And that's why I want to share it with everyone,
because there's nothing better really than that feeling.
Sure. In terms of maybe hope, you know, I'm sort of building a better future.
What is your take around maybe immigration right now?
Bitcoin, in a lot of ways, dematerializes borders
and allows us to trade with people very far away or even close by that we couldn't trade with before.
But physical sort of voting with your feet and sort of there are a lot of opportunities that are still in the physical space,
whether it be cities or different countries with different rules.
Yeah, I mean, I obviously have some probably more personal and sensitive takes on immigration just because of my family's journey here.
And I really admire my family for risking everything and coming here and not asking for anything of the country but a chance to work here.
They didn't ask for handouts.
They didn't ask for freebies.
They didn't say that, oh, everyone needs to speak our language.
No.
Like they wanted to be American so badly and they wanted to follow the rules.
And that's why I was so frustrated when they lost everything because it's like here are two good, hardworking people that played by all the rules
and ended up, you know, losing everything in the GFC.
And so with immigration, it's, again,
there are so many people around the world
who want to come here for a very specific reason
because it offers so much opportunity.
And that opportunity should not be taken for granted
and people shouldn't feel entitled to it.
And I think people need to be, need to follow the rules
and they need to be good to one another
and they need to work hard.
That's one of the things that actually is reflected
in Bitcoin. Like you don't just get Bitcoin handed to you. You have to earn it or expend resources.
There's proof of work involved. And I feel like today, so many of the conversations,
they lose that. There's almost this like, it's okay to break laws. There's a sense of entitlement.
There's a, you need to conform to my culture. Like I really don't believe that. I don't. I
think that this country was founded on really important principles and the founding fathers
recognized the dangers of paper currency and of a central banking authority and warned us of this.
And the founding fathers created a distributed, decentralized form of government to the best of
their ability and set that up for us to create what became the greatest experiment in human
governance. And I cherish that. I think that people should study the constitution. I feel like
they should, um, study, you know, how laws are made. I feel like so many people don't have that
civic responsibility anymore and they, they're not even proud to be American. And as someone who
comes from a family that's very proud to be American, I don't understand that because there
are so many places you could go that are far worse. And so I just, I urge people again to just
to really know, know what they're talking about before they share things online, really study
things. And sometimes there are no easy answers. And I know it's a topic that's wrought with a lot
of emotion. But I think when we take the emotion away, again, like Bitcoin, for example, is a system
of rules. And a nation needs to be a system of rules as well that we follow so that we bring out
the best in one another as opposed to taking advantage of one another. Yeah. Wow. Yeah,
no, I agree with that. Something I really want to ask you is how do people react when they find
out you're a Bitcoin educator. And I'm sure you go into different circles where, you know, maybe
you're going on to Fox and you're the Bitcoin educator amongst, you know, other economic or
macroeconomic thinkers. And then sometimes maybe you just meet people in real life and they don't
know what you do when they find out you're a Bitcoin educator. Yeah, it really just depends
on the room. Sometimes I feel very welcome. Sometimes I feel like the sore thumb sticking
out. It's just I know we're so early still and it feels really good to be early when you have
strength in your conviction. And I do. It took me a while to get there. I didn't always feel that way.
I definitely, at the very beginning, was worried that I was missing something or that I didn't have
enough knowledge to understand. Just something, like, right, something about economics that I
might be missing, something about the technology aspect that I might be missing. And I really had
to put in the work and I learned from the best. And now I'm at a place where I feel really confident.
And so I feel more confident walking into a room where maybe people have a different worldview and
they reject Bitcoin and they're steadfast about it. And I'm happy to discuss it with them. And I
feel like I have put in the work to be able to make some arguments. Certainly they're not going
to be perfect and I'm not the most technical person, but I do believe based on all of my
research, I know why I feel the way I feel and why I put my money in Bitcoin. And I just hope
that I spark curiosity because at the end of the day, I think investing is really personal and
people have different time horizons and people have different goals and wishes. And, and so,
you know, I understand why some people might say, I'm just not ready to, to invest too much in this.
I'm not going to put everything into it. And then I also understand why some people say,
I'm going to put everything into Bitcoin. And, um, so I think it's really a personal decision,
but it's been great to be one of the early educators in the space.
Well, I think, you know, like I said earlier, I think you're doing a tremendous job. I don't
think I've ever seen you miss, but, and you're killing it. But my question, do you feel pressure
to maybe get the right message across? Because you might be the first time people hear about
Bitcoin in sort of a setting that they might lend credibility to, like mainstream news or
something like that. Oh, 100%. Yes. With a platform comes great responsibility. I've always
taken that very, very seriously. Even with what I do as a podcast, you know, in the world of
decentralized media and decentralized information, there's so much responsibility to make sure that
you're putting out information that is factual so that you can build trust and people come to you
and there's a sense of credibility and authenticity. And so I'm really grateful for my communication
background because I feel like in many ways it prepared me for this moment where Bitcoin needs
more communicators. It needs more storytellers. It needs more educators. And that's what I've chosen
to do. And it's really, um, it makes it feel not like a job. It makes it feel like such a rewarding
experience to daily hone that craft and try to improve upon it. And that's what I try to do with
every news hit. Just like when I was a journalist, I watch it back. I critique myself. I read the
critiques of others, which are nicer, you know, sometimes than others. And, and I try to get
better. I try to get better. I try to fill in the gaps of my knowledge. Uh, I wish I had a perfect
memory, right? Because you read stuff and you want to be able to retain all of it and just be able to
say it in a moment's notice on call. But you can't. The human brain doesn't work that way. So I work
hard to reread things and study things and just try to stay on top of all the developments because
there are so many. And just do my best. You know, we just sometimes we get really hard on ourselves,
but we are making progress. We've done so much. Bitcoin is at a place that I didn't expect it to
be, which is that a president has endorsed it. And we have all of these tailwinds when it comes
to regulations and people embracing it and the number one performing ETF. It's beat gold. It's
beat all of the traditional asset classes in terms of inflows. And we've got a long way to go,
but I think every year we're going to bring millions more into this movement.
Yeah, for sure. And then maybe thinking about wealth inequality, because that seems to be
getting worse and worse in a lot of ways.
Should, you know, Bitcoiners, you know, might have survivor's guilt or maybe just feel guilty
about doing well on a Bitcoin standard, whether they've been here for 10 years or they've
been here for 10 months and they're hoping to do well.
And maybe that comes quickly if things move quickly with price.
I mean, do you think Bitcoiners will have a sense of guilt or should feel guilty maybe
as things get more split in society?
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I don't think that anyone should feel guilty when they acquire wealth.
I think that they should feel responsible to be of service and to be of a positive impact.
I mean, that's where I feel like it's your business, what you do with your money.
But I would hope that where you find the most reward and the most like calling is to be of
service, be to provide value, to give back.
I'm not necessarily in terms of a charity, but like building a company, building a product,
building a service, innovating, investing in other people's ideas.
Like, I just think there are so many ways to help each other.
I feel like today, because of the wealth concentration and wealth equality, there is this sense of resentment toward the people at the top who have a lot.
And I know because I was there, I used to feel this way and I do not anymore.
I now view it more as a source of inspiration.
I really do believe that, especially in America, anyone can make it happen.
Anyone has the tools, especially with the Internet and how much information you have at the tip of your fingers.
Like anyone can learn anything and achieve anything today.
Honestly, probably easier than it was before.
It's just so many people I think are stuck in a paradigm where they think it's not possible
and they're stuck in their nine to five and they're not making enough and things are getting
more expensive and they don't know how to break out.
And the way to break out is to understand the system, is to understand what is happening,
why income is not catching up to the price of things.
and build your plan knowing that
so that you can really take advantage
of what you have and the assets that you have.
I mean, the scarcest asset all of us have is time.
And I think that everyone has abilities
that they may take for granted
that could be a positive contribution to society
or to a company or to starting their own business.
And I think that a Bitcoin world
will encourage more people to think outside of the box
and to start their own companies and provide service.
And I think that there would actually be naturally
less wealth concentration than there is today
because there would be more competition.
Because again, with Bitcoin, there is no money printer
that can benefit a few people at the expense of everyone else.
You actually have to work and provide value
in order to earn your Bitcoin,
or you have to expend resources.
You have to mine the Bitcoin.
You have to get sources of electricity.
you have to play by the rules of the game.
And the game is the same
whether you're at the top of the pyramid or the bottom.
And that's what I like that
because I think that that encourages ingenuity and innovation
and nothing will ever be equal.
And people who think that communism and socialism
is the answer, my family will be the first to tell you
that's not the case.
But if we can strive for more access
to opportunity and education,
I think that that's where we will have
sort of the best and most abundant human potential and activity and interaction happen.
Sure.
Then maybe speaking about women's empowerment, because you're at the forefront of Bitcoin
education, the Bitcoin industry is predominantly male, but women are beginning to join the
financial revolution, it seems like.
What do you see there?
Is it resonating, your message with women?
You're holding events.
I see that you're out in the space.
What can you share about that?
Yes, this is something that I love speaking about. And I love that it's a part of my mission. I think that we are underrepresented. And I think Bitcoin is for women. It's for everyone. That's why my book's called Bitcoin is for everyone. And I really am excited to see more women find inspiration through learning about Bitcoin and find a sense of empowerment.
And yes, I host Women of Bitcoin Brunch with my dear co-chair, Callie Bailey, every single
year at the Bitcoin conference.
We're already starting to plan the 2026 one.
But I've partnered with a lot of different women in the space just to try to encourage
more female adoption of this technology to make them feel like they're not outnumbered
and it's not intimidating.
Because one thing that I've noticed is that Bitcoin is, it sits at this really interesting
intersection of economics and finance, technology, computer science, engineering, programming,
all of these fields are very male dominated. So I feel like sometimes women, like they're peering
in and they don feel they welcome And I just want to be a voice and a representation that they absolutely are And it been a great room to be in and table to sit at It it wonderful The men are very welcoming and I encourage more women to
to look into it. And honestly, the book was, was partially because of that feeling, because I would
give a lot of the books are obviously written by men. I would give them to my girlfriends and they
wouldn't finish them. And I was like, okay, I want a book that they will actually finish, that they
will read and feel like someone's speaking to them. And I hope that that is the case. And I
hope that there's a large readership of women for Bitcoin is for everyone. Sure. When you mentioned
all the fields, Bitcoin is sort of predicated on, but when you put them and they're male dominated,
maybe when you put them all together, you kind of get this one thing. And that to me, you know,
is a lot of what your message is about, though, around equity, justice and personal empowerment,
Bitcoin, the whole tool together, no matter what it's sort of built on. And those are not
gender specific and I think resonate with men and women alike. I don't want to speak for women.
One thing, you know, I've been thinking about, though, I was at the Canadian Bitcoin conference
and someone was speaking about sort of Bitcoin adoption. And he noticed it again. He's a male,
but he's saying women, you know, when they get something specifically Bitcoin, kind of get it
and move on. Maybe men want to wax poetic about it on and on and on, you know, and sort of talk
about it and ruminate on it. But I don't know if that's true. Maybe women are getting it and they
just sort of use it and they don't have to talk about it or, you know, kind of pontificated about
it as much. I'm not sure there. I mean, that's interesting. It's hard for me to relate because
all I want to do is talk about Bitcoin. So I have a hard time relating to that. And my girlfriends
who I've gotten into Bitcoin, they all just want to talk about Bitcoin too. Once you've been orange
pill, you can't really go back or unsee the world. But I mean, maybe I feel like it's more so that
Bitcoin has been made to seem like a trade or like a speculation or something that's very highly
technical. And the women in my life, they are, they really are more about like relationships,
community building, like being, being storytellers. And that's what Bitcoin really needs of all things.
And, and so I don't want women to think, oh, it's just a trade. And it's just something where you're
looking at charts all day because it's not. It's something that is so much more and empowers people.
And I think that's why the human rights angle of Bitcoin has really caught the attention of a lot
of women. That's something that they feel really passionate about is addressing some of these
bigger systemic issues. And that means something to them. Because again, like all the women in my
life, they want to build community. They want to solve problems amongst people. They're all about
people. Whereas the guys in my life are more about like things and projects. And maybe that's,
I don't know, maybe that's just my world. But I just feel like Bitcoin needs more people,
more women that are about building community and helping solve some of these deeper issues.
Sure. And maybe you could tell us a little bit about Farida, Farida Nabarima from Togo.
Yes. She's included in my human rights chapter. And it's not the first time she's been written
about. She's an incredible freedom warrior who has been in Alex Gladstein's writings,
and she's been very involved with the Human Rights Foundation and speaks at a lot of
conferences worldwide. She's from Togo, and she really escaped a brutal monetary dictatorship,
and she fled, and she's trying to educate people about Bitcoin because she knows firsthand what it
means when a country and the people who lead it could just debase the currency overnight.
And all of a sudden, all of the work, all the work that you saved that money in has been cut in half.
Your time, your energy, your work has been stolen from you and you have no control and no say in it.
And unfortunately, in some countries, including hers, this has resulted in violence, in deaths.
And anyone who speaks out against the regime has a target on their back.
And so her story is really powerful because it takes a lot of bravery, not just to recognize that there's something wrong and speak about it,
but do something about it and encourage people to embrace a system that opts out of a monetary
dictatorship. And so she sheds light in a very effective and powerful way about the issues that
still exist today with colonialism and how it's impacted her communities and their opportunities.
And when you look at it from the monetary angle, which none of us are taught again in school,
you think, whoa, oh my, like, how have I not been taught this? And you feel a lot of hope in the
sense that this could change if enough people really understand it and sort of move, transfer
their money and their time out of the system that has created so much oppression.
Yeah.
And then whose story was it?
I'm trying to find it right now, but about they had to rob a bank to get their own money
to pay for medical.
Yeah.
So I think you're thinking of a story that I also echoed from Lynn Alden's Broken Money
book, which is that there was a woman, they closed the banks in Lebanon.
And so you literally could not access your own money.
And she had a relative who needed health care.
And so she literally took a gun to the bank and held up the bank to try to get her own
money out.
And it just it's a very dramatic anecdote about the fact that when you earn money and
put it in the bank, is it really your money or is it the bank's money?
And they could just shut you off and cut you off from accessing it.
Because if you can't access your own money, what freedom do you have?
Right.
And that's why I really I shed light on the on the book about the importance of financial freedom and property rights, because if you don't have that, a lot of your foundational basic freedoms don't exist.
And you can't you can't help your family.
You can't feed yourself.
You can't house yourself.
So it's very important.
And these are some of the aspects of Bitcoin that attracted really prominent names like RFK Jr.
I mean, he was really he became active and understood Bitcoin after the Canadian trucker protest where people's bank accounts were being cut off from them simply because they were, you know, speaking out against something that the government had a different opinion on.
And so I just think that those stories are really powerful.
And that was one that really stuck out to me.
But I have to lend credit to Lynn Alden because she really she informed me of that story.
I think it was a fake gun, too.
But it's a really powerful story.
It resonates with sort of Silk Road and sort of being able to do what you want with your money and what you need to do.
So I was driving home and I don't listen to, I don't love the radio, but I was listening to radio and I was one of the oldest VJs from MTV.
She's now on the radio, I think Martha Quinn.
And I was listening to her and one of the sort of interludes was around a study that was done around like the cost of motherhood or sort of like what the salary of motherhood would be.
and you know so if if your husband if the husband paid the mother and the mother worked
2 000 hours a year as a mom and what the rate what would be the sort of the salary of a mother
based on her tasks compared to other people in the workforce and they came up with some number
around like 180 000 before overtime and i just thought this was sort of unfortunate to sort of
monetize life, sort of this notion of cost of living. And I think about, yeah,
I didn't mean to cut you off. Well, you know, I mean, I don't have children yet of my own,
but I've seen a lot of my friends struggle with the cost of childcare and it has gotten outrageous,
right? And I do think that there's something to think about when it comes to the pressure that
people feel in order to have everything and balance everything when the costs are just
skyrocketing. And so women, of course, maybe they feel a natural urge and inclination to have a
family. I certainly feel that way. How do you make sure that you can do that while also keeping your
job? Because a lot of people can't afford to just have the father work. And maybe sometimes they want
to work. They want to be a working mom. My mom always was a working mom. I think one of the
things that I love about Bitcoin is it empowers you economically, allows you to save in literally
the best savings technology ever that goes up about 30% a year. Don't mind the short-term
volatility, really zoom out at the performance. It's been about 30 to 50% per year that it
appreciates. And with that gives you more optionality because what I see, especially as I
get older, is I have a lot of people in my life, especially women who are making decisions out of
I have to, I feel obligated out of fear, out of desperation, as opposed to, I want to do this.
So maybe some people want to have a child, but they feel like they can't afford it. Maybe some
people want to spend more time with their child, but they feel like they can't afford it. And,
and childcare is very, very expensive. And so again, all of these decisions, I go back to,
this is very personal. I'm not going to sit here and say, women should do this or that.
That is a personal decision.
But I do think that if our money was not so broken and it just leaked purchasing power
because they kept printing, printing, printing into oblivion, I feel like more women would
be able to sit back for a moment and think, what do I really want?
Can I spend more time with my child?
How can I afford to do that?
Can I have a child?
How can I make financial plans for that?
Do I want to work and do, but like, I feel like women just need more freedom to make
those decisions. And when you feel the grinder of just like, you know, the bills got to be paid,
you don't feel like you have any freedom and you just do the best that you can. And that's what
most of us are doing. We're doing the best that we can. And I just want people to feel
more empowerment. And if they had a form of money that allowed them to save for the future,
I think that they would have less pressure to make some of these difficult decisions
and be able to do maybe more for their family and have bigger families if they had a money that they
could rely on. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I felt that sort of economics probably delayed sort of
my outlook towards family building when I was in my 20s and thinking about what I could afford and
really more thinking about what I couldn't afford and how I was going to have to push things off
until I could afford the things I needed or wanted to put all that together. And some of that's
cultural, you know, what you see in sort of music and TV and film. But I think it comes from the
money first. You know, what would you say to people if they they wanted to know if they were
too late to Bitcoin. It's over 100K. The ETFs are here. They're already the most successful ETF in
history in terms of adoption and rate of growth. What would you say if they were worried they were
too late? Yeah, you just made me think of something. So I'm just going to put a bow on
the last question too. Something that I also have changed my perspective on. When I was younger,
all I wanted is just the career, the career, the career, the career is everything. I put everything
into it. I didn't think at all about marriage and family and all of that. And what I've realized in
the last few years is the people around you, whether you have a family in the form of children
or even just like your friendships, the community that you create, your loved ones, those are the
people that are going to be there for you in your old age. Those are the stories you're going to
remember, those are the experiences that will carry you through your life. Not necessarily,
you know, the corporate job that you're sitting at where your boss, if you quit, would replace you
in two days. Right. And I think so many women have been programmed that like the thing to do
is you got to be the working boss. You got to be the boss lady. You got to, you know, climb the
corporate ladder. You got to break the glass ceiling. And I just wonder if we were in a system
of hard money that allowed us to save for the future, would women really feel that pressure
so much? Or would they work because they have a passion in something and they want to be of
service in a certain industry and provide value? Or would they decide that, hey, you know what?
I actually love the idea of being at home with my kids and having a family. Or I just feel like,
again, the more options we have, the better. And we would have more options if we had better money.
So I just want to say that second on we're super early.
And that's that's a huge message of the book.
Like people think that they're late.
Bitcoin is a two trillion dollar asset class within a pool of like think of the money of
the world representing almost one quadrillion.
So I think the estimates are somewhere between 900 trillion now and one quadrillion, which
is like, whoa, we can't even fathom those numbers.
People throw around billions and trillions today, but there's a huge difference between
each one.
And assets like real estate and bonds and equities represent hundreds of trillions of dollars worth of value.
So think about $2 trillion competing with hundreds of trillions.
As Bitcoin grows and eats into these other asset classes, it has tremendous upside.
I mean, you're at a $2 trillion asset class.
to enter now, the potential is not five times, not 10 times, but in my opinion,
a hundred times from where we are here. I can't say that about any other asset or any other form
of investment. And that's why I think it's so imperative that we tell people about Bitcoin
because all of us are very early. Yeah. The only bow I'll put back on the last point is I think
growing up before I think inflation really took hold, I think boomers were kind of telling my
generation, don't start a family so young.
Focus on your career.
Focus on yourself.
And I don't know if that was good advice.
And I think economics also played a role by the time my generation got a little older
that the economics were, for every generation, get harder.
But I think there was a cultural aspect of it, too.
And a lot of messaging from that side.
But I just have a couple more questions here.
If you could orange pill anyone in the world, who would it be and why?
Oh, wow.
That's a really, that's a good question.
I think it's important to Orange Pill,
the people who have the most influence.
So there would be a lot of people on that list
because, I mean, today,
some people consider followers an online form of currency, right?
Like the more people you can influence,
that would do a lot of good for Bitcoin.
So I would say that the most important people to Orange Pill
are the people with the biggest platforms
who have the people who follow them.
the most. So, you know, I think political figures, tech leaders, like the CEOs of these
major corporations who could embrace Bitcoin for their companies, entertainers that have big
platforms, really anyone with a big voice. I think those are the people I'd want the most
orange pill. But if I had to pick one person, gosh, that's hard. I would say, I don't know.
I mean, again, I think about some of the big, big podcast hosts.
Joe Rogan's a Bitcoiner, but I don't think he's enough of a Bitcoin.
I wish he would cover it more.
So I wish Joe Rogan was really, really orange-pilled.
I think Elon Musk is almost there.
I wish Elon Musk was hardcore wanting to talk about Bitcoin all the time.
That would be fun.
But we'll get there.
We'll get everyone.
Sure, let's see.
And then do you run your own node?
I do, yes.
And I'm so grateful that Sam actually helped me.
A lot of you might know Sam Callahan.
He helped me set up my Raspberry Pi and I run a node and I'm very happy that I do.
I was so intimidated when I first started and he made me realize how easy it is So anyone can do it I write in my book that anyone can do Running the same reference client or is there dissent in the household There not there not dissent There not dissent No Um and this is an area that I think
again, is like more, more personal. I respect, I respect the community and in the differences
that we have right now. My opinion might change as I do more research, but yeah.
All right. Well, I loved the book. Thank you so much for writing it and sharing it.
I'll leave it to you for any parting words and let people know where they can find you and your work.
Yeah, just thank you so much.
Again, I just really want to get this book out to as many people as possible,
especially those who are skeptical or feel like Bitcoin's not for them.
I want them to feel like this is a really easy introduction.
So please pre-order my book, Bitcoin is for Everyone.
And you can check out my show, Coin Stories, on every podcasting platform.
I do a weekly news update called The News Block.
I have a free newsletter for that, thenewsblock.substack.com.
And yeah, catch me on Twitter, X, all of it.
Thank you so much, Natalie.
It's been a pleasure.
Thanks so much.
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