Hey, Lynn. Hey, Israel. Welcome to Early Days.
Hi, Kar. How are you?
Hey, Kar. Happy to be on Early Days.
I spent my whole life chasing you
When will you come?
Come on to me
Awesome.
So I'm so glad to have you on.
You guys are doing an amazing podcast slash advisory thing.
And we want to have you on to talk about both of those things.
So thank you so much for spending your afternoon here with me for an hour to talk about all this stuff.
I'm excited to jump into everything.
Yeah, well, thanks for the invite, Carl.
Thanks for having us on.
I don't know.
Where do you want to start?
Yeah, let's just give the audience just kind of like y'all's backgrounds.
And we can start with you, Lynn, and then we can go to Israel and then kind of go from there.
Sure.
My background is, I guess, a journey from the dark side to the bright side.
I started on Wall Street and worked in institutional money management, originally as a broker, and then institutional money management with Merrill Lynch.
And then ended up just really feeling like I needed to leave that world in order to kind of become the person I should be.
And didn't know what I was going to do.
Ended up in Mexico.
and taking a break and then started a business in marketing.
And just one thing led to another.
Was always super involved with technology, just loved technology and how it could transform things.
I guess I'm always an early adapter.
But I started a venture capital fund in 2012 to focus on early stage tech development in Mexico primarily.
And then LATAM around the same time I was introduced to Bitcoin,
which I was really intrigued with as a technology.
Didn't give it as much attention, perhaps, as I could have, should have,
because I was busy building the venture firm,
but always had my eye out for anything that was kind of integrated into Bitcoin.
And then as time went on, due to a number of circumstances,
one is that my beloved partner, Andreas, my co-managing partner,
he passed away unexpectedly in 2021,
And it forced a decision of what to do with the venture fund. And so I made the kind of hard decision to wind that down. But I also at the same time was just really looking at Bitcoin in a more technical way and just seeing how it had not only how it had performed, but just the different optionality it had from a technology standpoint.
So I decided to devote all my time and energy into Bitcoin.
And around that same time, I met Israel and we started talking about our mutual interests and decided to collaborate on this podcast because we both come from this early tech stage background.
We both are Bitcoiners.
And I don't want to obviously Israel tell his story, but just thought we had a lot to learn.
It's like, can early stage founders make money in Bitcoin if it's open source technology?
What does it look like?
are we too early for Bitcoin builders? What does the landscape look like? Who's investing?
So these were some of the questions that we both had that kind of drew us together to start Build
with Bitcoin. So Israel, you take it from here, please. Yeah. Fill in the gaps in your background.
Yeah. And we're a year and a half into that discovery, right? So I'm sure we'll get into
a lot of that here with you, Kar. But yeah, I mean, as far as my background and story,
So I kind of from undergrad and grad school studied economics, math, international affairs.
And then during my master's, I actually tried co-founding a startup that was doing international remittances using the Bitcoin network.
So we tried that with my old business partner.
We tried that in 2014.
So it was pretty early.
I mean, for me, it was hearing about Bitcoin, doing some research, and I'd say pretty immediately, I kind of had a bit of a jaw-dropping moment, you know, when I realized it was this open borderless network and, you know, the scarce money aspect.
And so once we started playing around with it, we realized, wow, you can do things a lot more efficiently.
And the current system is screwing a lot of people over.
So anyways, that led to trying to do the remittance business that ended up failing.
We were a bit too early in many regards, but that was kind of the entry point into Bitcoin.
Fascinated with it as a technology, as an open network.
And then kind of fast forwarding from there, I did a variety of things.
I helped launch the 500 startups, 500 Global now they're called, operation out here in Miami, which is where I'm based.
I worked at a brokerage, a fintech servicing Brazilian clients out of here in the U.S.
I worked for Swift for four years.
So through a variety of experiences, I've always been involved in the startup space, in the venture space, and got connected with Lynn.
Actually, it was through hearing a podcast, someone interviewing Lynn, and she was talking about how she had done these meet at Tech Talks in Punta Mita in Mexico, which were just some great tech events to connect founders and investors and the entrepreneurship community and how she wanted to do that for the Bitcoin sector.
I heard her Bitcoin story.
We got connected.
And yeah, to Lynn's point, here we are, you know, discovering all sorts of things.
in the Bitcoin startup industry.
Yeah, I just feel like y'all's podcast
has like a treasure trove of just like founder,
just, you know, entrepreneur, just VC,
like whatever the ecosystem is doing right now,
y'all have covered it at this point.
It's pretty amazing.
Is there something that you guys think
that has just shocked y'all
over the past year and a half doing that?
Well, I think Israel and I continually check in with each other about our learnings and what we're finding.
And we're starting to publish some of our own episodes.
We're going to do some at the year end, but we did a series about what we've learned from investors and what they're looking for.
But we're just stricken by how different the whole entrepreneurial ecosystem is, both with founders and investors, than the traditional VC startup world that we came from.
Maybe less on the startup side than the investor side, but the whole ethos of the investors is so much more aligned with the startup founders that they're supporting.
And I know we sometimes hear a little pushback of that from founders who are looking to raise funds, but VCs are startups themselves and they have to give a return to their investors so they have certain parameters.
But basically, I think it comes down to two things, time preference and aligned incentives.
And so time preference, both the founders and the investors, we've discovered, have a much lower time preference and longer perspective of what it takes to be a successful company.
Founders tend to want to retain control of their company and also have a tighter handle on managing expenses than I think traditional startups have that have been taught that mantra, you know, grow fast and break things.
And we find that that is not, I think venture capital and traditional tech is kind of broken right now where only the ultra successful models get funded.
We're seeing drop offs in funding and LATAM and in some of the other regions.
And I think everything is just flowing to AI.
So we just I mean, I can't imagine that more people aren't looking at the Bitcoin space and, you know, just remaking the entire global financial system on the Bitcoin protocol and what opportunities that can lead to from an investor standpoint.
But here we are. And I'm sure you share that, Carl.
But Israel, I know you've got thoughts, too, on how we what we've learned.
Yeah, I mean, that that definitely and then I know a couple of question marks we had in the beginning was, are we even going to find that many startups?
Are we going to have enough people to interview?
You know, this was like a year and a half or two years ago that Lynn and I were, you know, starting to make a list of, you know, who we would outreach to, what would be our target list?
And that was kind of a real sincere question mark we had, you know.
And so one very positive surprise is that we've had no shortage of builders to have on the podcast.
You know, startups doing all sorts of things.
Of course, one of the things we wanted to discover and are discovering are all the different technologies that Bitcoin enables,
apart from the basic wallets and exchanges, the kind of the obvious ones, which, yeah, we've been discovering a lot of that.
And I think also Bitcoin as a funding mechanism for a startup's growth has been something that we've been lately digging into a lot more and wasn't necessarily expected, but is proving to be just hugely important.
I mean, I think you see a pretty common thread now of founders either allocating a part of the upcoming round or they're already fundraised capital into Bitcoin.
And that, with a low time preference, as Lynn is saying, provides some dilution protection.
It kind of gives them more runway, right, to build what they're working on.
So, yeah, I mean, a few learnings, definitely.
Yeah, I have so many questions now.
Let me let's start off with like the because you did talk about the capital raising and how you think that's changing, Lynn.
And I think Israel, you also touched on that slightly, too.
Can we talk about that?
Can you explain why is that happening on the LP side?
Is that more happening on the startup side?
Like, what are you seeing out there, Lynn, as far as like all of that and how things are changing for venture capital right now?
I still think that venture flowing into Bitcoin companies and Bitcoin VC funds is underfunded, severely underfunded.
I think people aren't really recognizing the opportunity this provides.
And I think if you talk to a lot of the venture capital funds, probably Bitcoin angel investors are the best target LP for them right now. There's very little institutional money going into that, but possibly that will change now that we have ETFs and institutions are becoming a lot more familiar with Bitcoin and Bitcoin treasury companies. So hopefully that'll shift.
So I do think today still angel investors are probably the best source for an early stage funder and some VC funds that, you know, and there's a handful of them.
And they do have particular directives, like some funds will, you know, get into the mining space.
Others won't. Others will do, you know, hardware. Others won't.
So, you know, and most of them were very early stage.
Now you have like EgoDeath and 1031 that will do later stage.
And that's kind of the progression with the growth of the Bitcoin companies.
But the interesting thing, and Israel mentioned this, that he and I are really digging into right now.
And I think we took this from the Saylor playbook, you know, where he started really digging down into capital markets and seeing how he could kind of reimagine capital markets.
And not all of these investment vehicles that he has, like preferreds and convertible preferreds, and those vehicles are new.
They're actually quite old when interest rates were higher, but he's dusted those off and reimagined them on the Bitcoin foundation and created some really incredible financial instruments for people.
We're doing the same thing with founders.
So instead of just taking the straight safe, you know, where you get a percentage of equity for an investment in the company, we're starting to explore how you might convert, you know, some of your fundraise into a more of a convertible or a preferred equity that is has a foundation of Bitcoin so that the investor is more or less assured that they're going to have some return on their investment, which is unusual for a startup.
We've kind of been taught that, you know, 99 out of 100 startups go to zero and one will go to, you know, 1,000x.
And that's just bad math.
So why can't we have a greater number of successful startup founders, a greater opportunity for return for investors,
and have some sort of foundation based on Bitcoin that can help, you know, smooth that flow?
I think also for a long-term perspective, a founder that has Bitcoin on their balance sheet, and we've seen it happen in early Bitcoin companies that accidentally had Bitcoin on their treasury that probably never need to raise again.
But others that are putting a portion of their revenues that they're earning in Bitcoin into it, something that grant from 1031 called Sats Flow, which I think is going to become a more important measurement or metric for companies.
and with Strike opening this up to, you know, almost anybody can, excuse me,
Block opening this up to, you know, all merchants can earn in Bitcoin.
You know, what a beautiful world that would be if everybody could earn some Bitcoin,
put some of it into a Bitcoin treasury.
But yeah, I'm rambling a little bit, but Israel, please jump in and maybe expand a little bit
about what we're thinking about in terms of the startup founders being able to use Bitcoin.
Yeah, I mean, you think I think you hit on the main points there, Lynn. But I mean, if you just kind of take a step back, Karin, and look at it structurally, I mean, before that optionality wasn't there, right before in the VC or, you know, startup founder journey, you were.
I'm generalizing a bit, but, you know, you're talking about high burn rate companies and they're being funded and using a weak currency that's losing value.
Right. So now we're in an era and it's not just Bitcoin also because of, you know, AI and just how lean you can operate a company where that burn rate is maybe not as necessarily high.
And also with that mindset that Lynn referred to earlier, which, of course, Bitcoiners are well familiar with low time preference.
You maybe, you know, you maybe have a shorter burn rate or lower burn rate and you have hard money that's not losing purchasing power.
So it just completely changes the dynamic of how you can grow the business.
Yeah, I mean, just structurally, I think it's when you look at it that way, there's just a lot more optionality now.
And so you see that with new instruments like Lynn referred to or maybe allocating, you know, 10 to 20 percent of your treasury or of a new round to Bitcoin.
And, you know, perhaps two or three years down the line, you don't necessarily need to raise again.
You might strategically do so, but it's different than the previous VC startup world where there's not much choice, you know, like you're expected to be raising.
every couple of years or whatever it may be.
And you're, of course, constantly being diluted
and losing ownership too.
So yeah, the impacts are pretty big.
So yeah, let's unpack this a little bit
because I got some questions.
So this is interesting
because I think you had mentioned it to me and Merida,
Lynn, like some kind of interesting concept here.
So let me make sure I'm on the same page with y'all.
So ideally, early stage companies in Bitcoin, you know, get like anywhere between 250 to 500k, right? So in this type of scenario, and we're just kind of speculating here, no one's actually putting numbers down or anything like that. But in this type of scenario, you could see like a seed at around a million or something, and a vast majority of that would be held in Bitcoin.
So that way, in the case of a situation where we have to dissolve or something, that at least goes back to the investors.
And is that what we're thinking here?
And then ideally, in the other side, if it goes great, then they have a Bitcoin treasury.
Yeah, I mean, it can be a little bit more complex and it depends on the stage of the
company, what they're raising and what runway they're raising for, how fast will they need
that cash and do they have cash flow or sats flow in the meantime.
But you could look at it as a convertible debenture a convertible debt So basically you pay interest to that
That investor would give you either Bitcoin or the equivalent in Bitcoin.
You invested in Bitcoin and you hold that amount.
You pay an interest rate, which should come from your cash flow back to the investor.
At some point in the future, they can either, and there's optionality on both the founder
side and the investor side with timeframes where they could either convert that into an equity
situation, in which case the Bitcoin then becomes the companies and then they become a more
traditional investor or they could get their return back and they've earned interest in the
meantime. So, you know, assuming Bitcoin appreciates, you know, it would be the dollar
amount that was invested, not like one Bitcoin, return one Bitcoin. It would be a Bitcoin at
$100,000 and then they get $100,000 back. So the Bitcoin treasury, if it appreciates,
can give that founder additional runway for operating their business.
Weeks like this week, you know, make me think that we need to make sure we run those models to
adjust for any sort of downturn for the founder. You know, we're in like the November market
correction right now as we're talking. But, you know, it just gives a lot more optionality
because Bitcoin is an asset that's been appreciating. And if you don't need it
immediately, and these are founders that should think of a maybe two to three year time frame
that they can hold that asset and either generate revenues on top of it, you know, you can either
lend, you know, there are now more instruments for borrowing against your Bitcoin. So if you
have a Bitcoin treasury, you might want to, you know, use a 25 percent, you know, value and then
have some income off of your Bitcoin that can become working capital for you. So there are lots
of different variations that have just never been possible before, to Israel's point, that we're
now starting to explore and just run some scenarios based on, you know, where a startup is and what
they're looking at. But we think it gives, you know, we want to be able to give options that
really make sense to an investor and also make sense to the founder and hopefully give that
founder the opportunity to retain more control of their company over time.
It's a fantastic answer. Israel, so tell me, like, because you guys do advisement and
tell me about all that, like explain how that works. And yeah, yeah.
Yeah. So Lynn and I are partners at Basel Air Advisors, which is a group of Bitcoiners and Lynn and I who offer these advisory services. Lynn and I are focused on the VC and startup side since that's kind of who we are and what we do.
So, yeah, I mean, it's really more so to help on the investor side to help investors who are looking at, you know, and that could be someone who's well versed in Bitcoin already looking to invest in, you know, or gain access to some deal flow in the in the Bitcoin startup industry.
or maybe someone who's, you know, newer to Bitcoin and is still looking to get their feet wet on the innovation side.
So on the investors, you know, and we help guide anyone interested into what the opportunities are within the Bitcoin VC and startup world.
And then for startups, we have been advising a couple companies already on the growth,
on their growth and fundraising needs.
And it really depends case by case.
But yeah, that's high level what we're starting to work more on.
And of course, to Lynn's point, there's a lot of new fundraising mechanisms that can be explored.
Yeah, so I'd be curious to find out like when...
when we will see that first, you know, kind of worked out, like that would be really fascinating.
So these aren't just conceptual, by the way, Kar, yeah, to your point, I mean,
there are a few of the cases that, you know, Lynn and I just described, there's already some
startups, which I of course won't name them, but that have implemented a variety of these.
And I would say the most common one we've seen is just allocating a portion of treasury, you know, just being smart with allocating to an appreciating currency, you know, whether that's 20 percent of the company's cash or whatever it may be.
In some cases, it's more aggressive or it depends on the startup's needs.
But I would say, I mean, I don't know if you agree, Lynn, but I would say the majority of the startups we've been talking to and meeting have allocated some portion of their fundraise or cash reserves to Bitcoin.
Yeah, no, no, absolutely.
And we even talked to one VC that says that they're being repaid by the investment they have in Bitcoin.
and through SatsFlow.
So it's like, and I, you know, this is where, you know,
we kind of talk about and dream about a model where, you know,
eventually, and this is far, probably not,
hopefully not too far in the future,
but, you know, VC investment will look completely different
on a Bitcoin standard where you'll be able to repay your investors,
your LPs in Bitcoin or have some sort of dividend.
Like back in the day, utility companies used to be one of the preferred investments.
And this is back in the 70s and whatever, when interest rates were very high because they threw off a lot of revenue.
And I think this is kind of what Saylor's kind of going to with some of the variations of the strategy playbook.
But if you can give your investor return and kind of a base capital, then why not?
And so if a VC investment can support a startup and they can return income, I mean, because a lot of people are looking for income, some are looking for growth, but just depending on how you structure it, that the Bitcoin playbook just gives you a lot more optionality, assuming the Bitcoin continues to appreciate, which I know we all believe on here.
But, you know, if you're a company that earns that your revenue stream is partially in Bitcoin, then you've got a tremendous advantage.
And we're even thinking like we just recently gave a workshop in Mexico City for Mexico Tech Week that was called Bitcoin Treasury Startup, you know, strategies for startups.
And we had 150 people registered, which was capacity and another 80 on a wait list.
And so, you know, it was really interesting. And we had I had a VC fund that I know approached me, though. It's very active in LATAM, said, you know, we're really interested in learning how to do this more because it's a tough scenario to raise funds in LATAM, especially for early stage companies.
And there's kind of a break between seed and series A that's a hurdle that, you know, people are looking like, how can I creatively make it through this hurdle?
And so I think, you know, these sorts of new ways of thinking will be great for just, you know, extending runways for startups.
It's fascinating. So fascinating.
I love the work that you guys are doing.
yeah i remember you mentioning it and i remember thinking like
and i thought about later that night i was like how would that look like
but the way you explained it right now makes a ton of sense i think the only
thing and i would love to ask you this question so the only thing i would i would
want to know um because i worked with a lot of founders in early stage
companies so i would be curious like do you think that would be a hindrance
at some point, if it's like an early stage company,
maybe they aren't hitting milestones or something.
And then now they kind of take the foot off the pedal
that you would say.
So that would, I would be more curious
how that kind of plays out.
And what do you think based off of people
that you've talked to, Lynn, do you think that,
you think that'll be a hurdle
they'll have to figure out too as well?
It's always tricky with startup founders.
And I think, I think knowing the founder,
I know you could probably agree with this in Israel also with the work he did at 500 Global, but founders are probably the key to the equation.
And so, you know, like for me, I will invest in a founder more than the idea any day of the week.
And you kind of get that, you know, are they the type of person that will take the foot off the gas?
And this is where I think the tokenization, you know, problem with venture funding, you know, kind of really did a disservice to the industry.
I mean, founders are raising so much money on a token that they had no incentive to build their company.
You know, they were exiting out, you know, or had at least the cash in the bank to exit out.
So they were, you know, incentivized not to build the company and just to take the just to exit out of it.
So that was a model that was deeply flawed.
But I think with, I don't know, the founders that we found in the Bitcoin space, to Israel's point earlier, just who we've talked to and who we've met, we just find a level of integrity that's just incredible and passion for what they're doing.
But having said that, you still will have a percentage that will fail.
I don't know that they'll fail because they're not working hard enough because they feel they have this cushion.
I just don't see that generally with a founder mentality.
mentality, you have a dream, you have a vision and you're building something that you really
believe in. And even more so in the Bitcoin space, because I think Bitcoin founders really
believe to their core that they're contributing to something much bigger than themselves or their
company, but to a remaking of the global financial system. Yeah. And yeah, I don't see it necessarily
slowing down innovation um if if anything you know it'll be interesting because the the bar is
actually pretty high right um i mean you know if you're looking at bitcoin as the opportunity cost
um and you know call whatever that may be 20 25 30 um i mean you you got to kind of create value
on top of that right you got to kind of it of course in the short term yeah you know you might
get some people who try to get away with you know raising money and not doing much and but
i think those bad business models and founders will just get weeded out of the equation as time
goes by and really if you are going to be successful at growing a business and raising
venture capital to grow that business you're going to have to be very productive and be providing
quite a bit of value. So yeah, I don't see the innovation slowing down or it being a hindrance.
I mean, in the short term, you know, yeah, there may be some bad actors and that will just get
kind of flushed away. But I mean, I think actually the founder mentality that Lynn mentioned
earlier is very strong and real. These are people that are starting to want to build
businesses that provide value over a multi-decade time frame and yeah i mean it's fascinating to see
yeah it's it's a really fascinating concept uh yeah and i think you're right and i think it
really does depend on the founder but uh really interesting i'm glad that we spent some time
talking about that because i've never is anybody else doing this like is anybody else talking about
this? No, we are the only ones, right? Like we finally got a sponsor. Can you believe it?
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team for backing the builder community and helping us push things forward. All right, let's get back
to the show. We're the only one. Take the bow, right? Take the bow right now. Well, we're really
early and we do spend a lot of time, you know, again, the Sailor Playbook, you know, he talked
about how he really just dug deep into ChatGP. We don't use ChatGPT, but it's like, but digging
into AI models to say, how would this look and modeling this? And I mean, we're just having so
much fun with it. And kind of getting back to it, it's like, you know, our advisory services,
how we came about it is, you know, I guess Israel and I were exploring the space and I guess we came
out at maybe differently, you know, I mean, our core business was just curiosity of what this
investment space looks like. And as we've gotten to build relationships, especially with the
investors on the other side, you know, we love all of the different investors and their different
visions and how they're supporting it. And so, you know, we're possibly at one point, we may have
thought about, you know, doing a fund, I think now we just really like supporting all of the funds
and maybe being a matchmaker between funds and startups and, and our advisory services kind of
grew organically. And so rather than really focusing on monetizing a podcast from a standpoint
of advertising or revenues or things like that.
It's like we would rather just support startups and see how we can add value and provide advisory
services for either how is your pitch correct?
I mean, it could be as simple as that.
Do you have the right story that you're telling that will attract an investor?
Because, Cara, I'm sure you see this, especially for the more technical founders.
It's a difference to tell a story to an investor to get them excited about your vision.
And there's kind of a methodology to it.
So, you know, how can we help them tell the story?
Or how might you structure a fundraise to have this optionality that you retain more control and you give, you know, a more foundational return of investment to investors?
And that might make it easier to raise funds if you, you know, if you implement one of these kind of new vehicles or ways of approaching it that Israel and I are exploring and that we've seen implemented at other companies.
So we're and then, you know, matchmaking and also advising, you know, investors like if I'm looking at the space, where do I start or who do I go or what looks interesting right now?
So that's where we've just kind of evolved. But we really we we love that piece of it. And we think that we're in a unique position because we're really the only I think the only, you know, podcast or vehicle that's kind of exploring both of the aspects of that.
Yeah, Israel, do you have anything to add? Yeah.
Yeah, no, I mean, I think it just, if anything, just I just compliment that by saying it really helps that both Lynn and I, Lynn and I's background are in the, you know, startup. I mean, we've both had experience as founder in the VC side. So it's kind of, it's who we kind of naturally already were and where our interests lie and experience lies.
so we're just kind of you know plugging that all into the into the bitcoin space um and it's super
exciting i mean yeah we're the only ones covering this specific niche for now in in the podcast
world i'm sure that will change but but yeah we are we are learning quite a bit and i mean it's
it's early but it is growing at a very steady and real pace i mean you'd be surprised with how
successful and profitable some of these startups are are are proving to be especially for early
stage tech i mean it's yeah let's talk about that we don't have to share any names or anything but
yeah let's talk about like some of the b2b stuff that's going on behind the scenes where
a lot of this stuff is i think is really hitting people first before even b2c but
we'd love to hear y'all's thoughts on it on on what aspect just as far as like revenue that's
flowing in you know to some of these bitcoin businesses yeah i mean if you just if you compare
it to um to the prior vc or startup standard let's say i mean it's it's very rare that you get
a company going into even series a with any you know any profitability um it's it's just you know
it was kind of pushed later in the journey profitability um and that again goes back to
incentives and, you know, how this was all structured to begin with. But the incentives
in the, you know, let's say FIA VC world were always just grow, grow, grow, you know, we'll
worry about profitability later. We just need to show growth numbers. And with a lot of these
Bitcoin startups I mean you seeing some you know from pre to seed stage forward already at profitability or very close to profitability which is just very rare And I think it you know it a variety of factors But
I don't know if you want to add anything to that, Lynn.
Yeah, I think, you know, if you look at the few companies who disclose, they're still private
companies, but well, two of them are private, but like River and Strike, you know, are pretty public
about, I mean, more public than a private company needs to be about their growth metrics and what
they're accomplishing in terms of year over year growth and user equity, you know, how many users
they add. Both of them have incredibly lean teams and spend very little, if anything, on advertising
and yet have incredible growth. And then Fold is another one that is a public company and just you
look at their metrics. So, you know, this just kind of creates a model of how companies are growing.
But then there are other ones that are completely private that we've just seen them kind of shift
as they're finding their model. And I mean, I'll just call one out, Ambos, you know, who has had
these tools for Lightning. And then they've now just kind of through different iterations have,
created this product, Rails, where it is providing fee revenue for contributing your Bitcoin to the
Lightning network. And that creates greater liquidity for Lightning. It creates fee revenue.
So it's not interest income, it's fee revenue, which as we learned is quite different and makes
a difference in people wanting to do it. You still retain control of your Bitcoin, but through their
expertise in Lightning and Lightning channels. It's just they've been able to really find a niche
that didn't exist before, and it's going to create greater liquidity in the Lightning network,
which will just provide better opportunities for using Bitcoin as a medium of exchange.
So we're, and Block was doing the same thing with the Lightning that they had and the yields. I think
they announced it, Bitcoin 2020, earning 12 to 15 percent on their lightning staking. So,
you know, there's some great opportunities and companies that may kind of, you know,
it's such a new space from a technology standpoint and with opportunities that we do see some of the
companies like even Breeze, you know, they tried a few things and then they hit it now with their
APIs. And so, you know, it's exciting to see the founders that are, you know, testing the waters
and some of these technologies adjacent to and foundationally on Bitcoin,
but to create brand new models and use cases based on what they're trying.
Man, we need that newsletter from y'all at some point.
If you guys do like a quarterly report, I'm totally down to pay for that.
Because just what you said right there, like, you know, a lot of the stuff we already know, Lynn,
like we follow the space intensely and stuff.
but the way you just explained it,
the way Israel just explained it,
like I think that's some alpha there
that could definitely be,
I would subscribe to that.
So something to think about.
It's definitely not our roadmap.
Yeah, we've been talking about it.
Yeah, just like a quarterly,
I think would be enough.
Like I always try to write a blog post
or something just on the builder front
and start up front,
but like it's tough just to get down
and write, you know,
to report back basically
what we're seeing in the front line.
So, yeah, good stuff. Really good stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Let's let's talk about the let's talk about LATM real quick in Mexico. How incredible is that? Like, what is going on down there? Why is it so popping right now? Like, am I right? Or like, remember, because then you remember this like two, three years ago, was it already popping like that? Or what's going on? Like, what do you think Bitcoin has just become a thing?
thing now? Like, I think it's safely say, like, Mexico is orange at this point, right? Like,
and there's builders and founders there, right? Or are we still too early on that?
It's becoming orange. I think it is. Yeah, there's been a tremendous shift in the last three years,
because I remember meeting you. We were at the very first Yopaki Black Party in Mexico City,
and then we just reconnected a couple months ago in Merida for the latest iteration of it. I guess
It's year three, the Pleb Lab Day, which is so exciting to see all your founders and everyone down there.
But I think, you know, to the point, like when we were in Merida, we were at the opening of the White Paper House.
And I think part of the impetus of this are the spaces that are popping up in Mexico.
There's the Casa de Satoshi in Mexico City.
There's a founder space in Guadalajara that's really oriented toward a lot of bit devs and builders.
The Merida space is more circular economies.
Monterey is kind of connected with the university there.
And so they have learnings that are trying to educate a lot of the business community.
And then Jimmy's space, which is being built, but in Baja, toward the La Paz area.
But so you're seeing kind of communities pop up around the country, which, you know, I can tell you from Mexico City,
It used to be the same 10 of us that would always get together.
And now, you know, we'll have an event where 100 people are there.
And it's really exciting to see the curiosity, the interest, and to try and create some programming that will bring a different sort of person.
I think Ricardo Salinas, his vocalness, too, about Bitcoin, and he's often writing about it and talking about it as a way of protecting savings.
And he's got a really broad reach on his Instagram and different social channels.
And so, you know, he's not shy about being very wealthy and enjoying his wealth.
I think, you know, adding Bitcoin to that and just talking about, you know, how it's such an important freedom technology and his university, which is outstanding, you know, that has quotes from The Matrix and Satoshi Nakamoto painted on the walls.
I mean, you just never walk into university and see that.
So he's been, I think, a big driver of some of the movement, too.
But I mean, I'm a resident of Mexico, Israel.
You're from Mexico.
So you talk a little bit about what you've seen in the shift.
Yeah.
I mean, I think there's definitely kind of an orange wave that's coming in Latin America.
So, yeah, I was born in Mexico City.
I've been here in the U.S. for a long time now.
But I also lived in Brazil for a year.
And yeah, I mean, I'm familiar, quite familiar with LATAM.
And I mean, you just look at Latin America and I'm just going to highlight like two or three very big obvious points for the region.
It's a region that even though it's very diverse and complex, I mean, we lots of times say LATAM as if it were just like this homogeneous area.
Right. But it's actually pretty, pretty diverse and complex.
That being said, you take all of Latin America and it's safe to say it's as a whole a region that's had a long history of weak currency.
Unfortunately, governments that have failed their people time and time again.
Digitally savvy. Population, young demographics.
So you have just a lot of ingredients that make it very, I want to say, like, especially the younger generations, I think very hungry for change, for participating in global commerce, for not being constantly debased and having capital controls.
And I mean, I think Latin America is going to be very, very relevant in the Bitcoin industry.
Because of that, you know, that variety of ingredients that, you know, I just kind of went through.
And we are seeing some, I think, some leaders that are starting to pave the way.
I mean, Bukele in El Salvador, of course, being the very obvious one.
You know, me lay in Argentina, he's at least trying to reduce regulations.
You know, we don't have to get into politics, but, um, you know, the point being, I think
it's a very young digitally savvy population, very smart, hungry for getting ahead, for being
part of the digital economy.
And at the same time, very sick of the failed government, the failed currency kind of always being held back.
And now you have this technology that's that's borderless and open.
Right. So it it's gonna it's gonna create a lot of value.
And yeah, I'm pretty optimistic on Latin America.
And before it used to be a little more crypto Web3.
I think that's kind of how it started.
You know, a little more of just the quick riches trading, you know, kind of false dreams to call it that way.
But now I think there is real signal with Bitcoin from Mexico down.
Yeah.
The other thing I'm really shocked about, too, which I noticed it this year going over there was I feel like young people, young people over there understand it better than young people here in America.
And I don't know why that is.
But I feel like Gen Z.
People in Latin America understand Bitcoin.
More than Gen Z Americans do.
Is that wrong to say or is that accurate?
Do you feel like that's.
I think that's accurate and probably true for most of the global south.
And that's that's probably just a couple of the points that I mentioned earlier that it's just, you know, it's.
It's a region that is used.
It has already seen it, whether it's firsthand or through their parents or grandparents or all of the above, you know, savings.
disappear because of currency devaluation, corruption, you know, lack of trust in government,
weak currency. So I think in that regard, it's easy. It's an easier grasp. Yeah. I mean,
I don't know what you think, Lynn. No, I totally agree. And I think
it kind of parallel to that is you look at the adoption in the African continent, too.
And just because of the, you know, just the bear, I mean, it's just so hard to transact. And so
So you've got this, I mean, I do feel that it's still heavily crypto, but at least there's digital.
I mean, this is what attracted me to starting a venture capital fund in Mexico was, you know, when you've got half the population under 30, you know, it was at the point where, you know, forget about everyone was immediately on digital, you know, on mobile networks instead of waiting for it.
Because when I first moved here, you had to wait like six months to get a phone and, you know, a phone landline.
And so it's just like everything was digital.
Everybody has smartphones.
And so just the native acceptance of that.
And then when you layer on, you know, just fintech applications.
And these are people who had always been excluded.
You know, a large part of the population was definitely excluded from the credit markets.
Even credit cards or mortgages are not common, which is why the debt levels in Latin America are much lower than in the United States, which surprises people.
But, you know, government debt is like, I think in Mexico is 52 percent to GDP versus, you know, 138 in the U.S.
So, you know, debt levels on an individual basis are lower.
But, you know, to be part of a system that allows you to get ahead either through having collateral or savings that protects the, you know, your purchasing power.
It's a it's a more natural understanding.
It comes inherent just because of how you've grown up versus someone in the U.S. that doesn't have that learning, doesn't have that immediate knowledge of money as being slowly eroded away.
Now, those are all great points.
It's just it's really fascinating to me how how fast is it taken off?
And then, like you said, it's really young.
What's the what's the startup ecosystem looking like these days over there in Mexico City?
And then even what you're seeing in Miami, Ezra, I'd be curious to know what that's like these days.
Yeah, well, maybe starting with Miami, it's growing.
I definitely see a very healthy trend.
Miami also kind of fell into the more Web3 crypto, you know, trend a few years back.
I'd say I would say that was still very much the more prevalent ecosystem.
Now it's quickly shifting to a healthier, you know, Bitcoin signal community.
and and as far as you know mexico
i mean it's it's it's still early and it's lagging the u.s as far as you know activity
per capita let's say i mean that's kind of to be expected though right i mean u.s
has a long-standing tradition of entrepreneurship and of course there's a lot of
capital here in the u.s that's ready to support early stage founders um but it's certainly picking
picking up i mean mexico we we see it i mean since we started the podcast now
i mean what what are your thoughts and but it's a i would say it's a huge pickup in
builder activity in in mexico particularly um and other countries as well i mean we we've seen
there and there's really great talent that should that should be highlighted as well i mean there's
some very smart developers and engineering talent in all of Latin America.
And now you can, you know, you can just plug into this permissionless network.
And if you have a business model for creating value on top of this technology, it's easier
than it was, you know, a few years ago to get started and create a successful company.
So I think it will continue to pick up.
But yeah, I don't know.
What are your thoughts, Lynn?
Yeah, I mean, you know, Mexico has a growing and strong startup ecosystem. It hasn't really been Bitcoin oriented until the last couple of years, I would say, with the outlying exceptions of exchanges.
But this is where hopefully, you know, we would love to help be a kind of a launching pad for getting people, you know, startup developers or developers and talent to think about how to incorporate Bitcoin protocol into their technologies because there's so much going on in fintech.
And Mexico is kind of interesting because it's divided into regions.
Like I always look at Mexico City as being closer to like New York, where it's more commerce and finance.
But Guadalajara has a super strong technical developer community there that has been working for years.
And this is because of the factories and the deep tech that has been part of the Guadalajara ecosystem since like the 60s and 70s.
So robotics and AI, medtech, things like this that are now, you know, some of that talent is going into Bitcoin protocol or exploring how to incorporate it.
And so we're seeing some interesting companies coming out of the Guadalajara region, too, that are more on the deep tech side related to Bitcoin.
And it's just exciting.
I think, like anything, you just need some role models of success.
And you need to see somebody do it and you need to be exposed to it.
And this is where, like, Dulce from Liberia de Satoshi is doing such a fantastic job of providing developer education to the Spanish-speaking LATAM and globally and really just has a mission to train more developers and get them more interested in pursuing careers.
There's, I think, a lack of developer talent in among, you know, that Bitcoin companies are always searching for.
So, you know, we we we need more talent.
And one thing to add, too, is that I think capital itself is is also becoming more global.
Right. So you have a lot of the very sophisticated Bitcoin, you know, funds and and allocators that are also looking at opportunities globally.
um you know and and that's of course hugely important for for any early stage entrepreneur
this is fantastic stuff i love it yeah i mean you always hear like roy from breeze always talked
about like the b2b is like the first main entrant for lightning and stuff like that and
and they just released their mcp stuff for the ai um component they're doing but yeah i agree i
think it's i think we're still early i think we're still early like i was telling you before the show
we had Zach from Trammell at Bitcoin Builders Club last night,
and he got me more bullish about all the companies
that are going to be built here in the next nine years,
five to nine years.
And he had a really good thesis on it.
So I think you're all right.
I think there is a ton of opportunities still left
to be built on Bitcoin.
Yeah.
I agree with Zach.
And this is where, you know, I think,
I just want to give a plug for the VC funds. I mean, I think it's hard to pick individual companies that will be successful, but the funds that we see that are dedicated to the space are really, really strong.
They're Bitcoiners who know Bitcoin. They think in Bitcoin terms. They understand what the needs are in terms of adoption or infrastructure. And they need funds, too. So like Trammell. I mean, it's like there's opportunities to – if you have an opportunity to invest in one of these funds, these are going to be, I think, the premier VC funds and investor portfolio buckets.
I mean I know EgoDeath talks about well a number of the funds that have been around for a while 1031 and EgoDeath and Fulgart just the returns they seeing on paper from their companies are really impressive and outperform many of the VC funds in the traditional tech space
So it's a great opportunity to, I think, participate in an exciting ecosystem and really
get some wins along the way. Yeah, and it does sound a bit cliche, but it is true that we are
still very early to your point car i mean we were just you know before uh recording we were just
talking about i was telling you guys about the presidio event uh that i was at last week and
they're doing a great job with you know creating a hub for the bitcoin community in san francisco
and silicon valley and it was i mentioned it to you guys i think it was around maybe 30 of us um
you know to me it was one of those reflection points of realizing that
you are still very early in this, right?
Because, I mean, here you are in the, you know,
mecca of entrepreneurship and tech in Silicon Valley
and you have some very smart people,
investors and founders that are, you know,
they're presenting their ideas, their thoughts,
their vision, everything.
And it's, you know, around 30 people
in a place like Silicon Valley.
I mean, it just goes to show you that,
to your point, Carr, we still have we still have a lot of room to grow.
Right. And and yeah, I go ahead, Lynn.
No, Austin has more people. I've been to your startup days in Austin, Carr.
You've got a lot more than 30 there.
So it's like the startup ecosystem in Austin and Nashville are more robust than Silicon Valley, which is kind of which is great.
Which is great. It's awesome.
I think I think I think you're all right. I think the.
And I think, yeah, I think you're right. I think like, because you said this earlier, Israel, in the beginning of the call, you said that, you know, reminences couldn't work back then because it was just too early. And now with the Lightning Network, you know, really taking off in 21, you have all these infrastructure companies. And now we have AI, right? Like every agent gets a UTXO at this point and figure that out, right?
Like it's incredibly bullish.
Like it's incredibly bullish because now at this point,
people are making sats,
sat flow in their sleep potentially.
Right.
And like the possibilities are endless and,
and people don't even know about this stuff yet.
And like a lot of it's going to get built this year and next year and the
year after.
And so think about all the companies are going to get built on top of that.
And that's not,
and we're not even including any of the other kind of Bitcoin,
you know adjacent technologies that are coming over from all these crypto stuff so like you just
look at it just from just strictly that area it's it's incredibly bullish and i'm kind of and i'm to
be honest like i'm seeing it here just in my backyard like the ai guys are just like yeah
like yeah they're they're they they know about bitcoin but it's introducing them to lightning is
when they really get it they're like whoa wait so we can and then that's when you can see the kind
of like what you were just talking about you need to see the role models like that's where i realized
is the uh is kind of the the thing that will get them it's just going to take a little bit time
till we get all the tools there well i think so much of the innovation has been you know creating
tools that people really need like wallets and exchanges and on on and off ramps and now lending
i think this year has been the big the big push for how do you access some of the appreciation
you have in bitcoin but to your point car i mean israel i talk about this a lot too but i mean i
see two huge opportunities that have not really been touched. And one is AI agents, payments for
agents and AI, the integration of AI and Bitcoin, because it just makes natural sense that AIs,
as they become more impendent and start, you know, executing tasks on their own or with your
direction, Bitcoin's a natural currency and paying in small amounts. And that kind of ties to my other
thesis of micropayments, which I don't think we've even touched on yet. It's like people haven't
really started thinking about it. But I just see that a future where, I mean, Fountain is doing a
little bit with the streaming of sats for listening to podcasts, but they're one of the few that has
really touched on this. But I think that every Netflix, Spotify, you know, office software,
you know, whether it's SaaS software, entertainment, publications, news, everything will be
paid on consumption in sats because you can do it. It's like you can pay fractional pennies
and not have it cost more than the actual transaction itself. It's like the payment
rails for traditional finance are broken, but Bitcoin can allow you to transact in these small
amounts in such an inexpensive way that it just becomes a whole new way of monetization of any
kind of content creation. And that's where I think enormous opportunities exist that haven't
really been explored yet. Yeah, I mean, this specific topic is where you can just you can
get lost pretty quickly on the potential because it's just massive, you know, like what lays ahead
is the most exciting part, because I mean, to your point, Carl, we're just starting to
get into this infrastructure stage and, you know, to everything that Lynn was just talking to.
I mean, the way I see it, you know, past 10 years have been a little more the basic building blocks
had to be built. You know, you kind of had to get through this stage of getting enough people
comfortable with the technology, you know, enough regulators comfortable with the technology,
some of the bridges between traditional finance and Bitcoin.
You know, you needed all of these building blocks and bridges.
But the infrastructure that was built, I think, up until now
was mostly just these integrations with the old system,
which, of course, are hugely important.
But now I think we're going to quickly move into the stage
where you start to see the new infrastructure,
like the completely novel infrastructure of the Bitcoin network
and the Bitcoin economy being used.
And that's, I mean, multiples, multiples bigger
and more exciting than, you know,
these other bridges that we've seen,
you know, the basic wallet, custody, exchange services.
I mean, if you look at the,
so the reminence example that you mentioned, Carso,
what we were trying to do back then in 2014
was just basically facilitate reminces
in a way that made it cheaper
through a more efficient use of technology, in this case being Bitcoin, right?
And even then, we didn't have the Lightning Network yet.
So you have now a stage in development where, you know, Strike is doing this.
For example, they're providing this interoperability between, you know,
U.S. dollar or other fiat rails and Bitcoin rails.
And so now that's possible.
But when you take it a step further, we're starting to move into the stage of adoption, too,
where you know you maybe don't even need that intermediary i mean you like the truly most
efficient use of ribbons is for for a currency and network like bitcoin is just sending bitcoin
overseas that's it you know both users are either one user is sending one user is receiving bitcoin
and you're and you're done you know you didn't even need an intermediary and you had to go
through these stages right um first you needed to integrate the fiat rails and now we're getting
into a stage where I think the adoption is only going to pick up at a faster and faster pace and
that'll just create completely new business models and you know all the programmability the
the instant settlement micro payments the AI agents I mean you start to get into some things
where like likely none of us know exactly what's going to be built and hugely successful
yeah i think i think that that's really fascinating and i think you're right like
you know just with the lightning rails itself i think you can even have a situation where
most people won't even know they're on they're using bitcoin or lightning and
by the time it hits them it could turn into whatever thing they want right and whatever
currency they want so that's kind of what i see it would be really interesting so like like you
saying then like maybe there is this kind of sats flow that then that then pays out this person
pays out this person pays out this person and it's all a protocol or something and then at the end
it it pays out the final the person who created the content or whatever and they want pesos or
something well there you go it's right in your wallet and it's kind of really fascinating that
we're not even we haven't gotten there yet but yeah it's gonna be cool it's gonna be really cool
Cool. I think that's all I got. I just want to do kind of a lightning round closer if you guys are open to it. You want to do it? Okay, cool. What's one Bitcoin myth you wish would die?
Lynn, do you want to take that one?
uh four-year cycle wow okay i think we're kind of done with that i don't know i i just i heard
everyone just anticipating it and i think the anticipation just you know perhaps is messing
around with the market a little bit so yeah four-year cycle i mean we're now at a level where
the amount of bitcoin that's being released you know is that it's such a small differential that
I just, I think four year cycle's over.
So yeah, done.
Interesting.
Okay.
Israel?
Yeah, that's a good one.
Then I would say mine,
maybe the no intrinsic value argument.
Okay.
If you have to,
if you had to describe the Bitcoin founder of 2030
in one sentence,
what does that person look like or robot?
you take that one first Israel ah geez um I don't know if that this is answering the question
head on but I would definitely lean towards the programmability side of of things and um AI agents
I mean um I think that is is still the biggest part of that innovation curve is still
is still ahead of us.
I think we've only gotten a glimpse.
Lynn?
I'm going to say it's someone really creative.
I mean, we, you know, I think there's,
I mean, Bitcoin's very technical,
but I'd love to see more creative people
coming into the space.
And I think now with all the tools
that you have to program
that a founder with creative ideas can just,
you know, I mean, there's so much opportunity,
I think, on surrounding Bitcoin
and the remaking of the global financial system
that I'd love to see, yeah,
a different type of a founder
open it up to more opportunities.
Yeah, I love that.
What's one non-Bitcoin book
you think every founder should read
or every Bitcoin founder should read?
I can go first.
Thinking fast and slow
would be my top recommendation
because it kind of plugs you into our own cognitive biases.
So I have this on my desk.
The last question.
And this was recommended by Paolo of Tether.
And I read it and found it just fascinating that I'm rereading it.
But, you know, I love sci-fi.
It just kind of opens your mind up to what are the, you know,
it's like, what's the last question that will be asked by us?
Is that H.G. Wells?
is that h.e wells or i think i know yeah it's mckinney mckinney is that the one where they
like they go to space and then they like keep asking the same question then they the guy like
keeps putting it off putting it off the robot keys and then finally at the end he like the world or
the universe ends or something like that is that what i'm not gonna blow the ending for everybody
i think that yeah it's a short read it's easy read it's free on pdf to download i want to say
I read that when I was a kid, but I don't remember.
I think the ending was just like an endless loop.
Endless loop questions, yes.
That's why I said the last question.
Funny.
So you got that one recommended by who?
Paolo, the CEO of Tether, had talked about that book,
and I said, I need to read that.
Because I had not, and it's a good read.
It's a good one.
It's a good thinking book.
Yeah, totally.
I like books that just make you open your mind up to something that's less concrete and more open-ended.
Okay, so the last one is, what one metric you think most Bitcoin founders over-optimize for?
And something they should probably pay attention to.
I can think of several, but if there's one metric.
Hmm.
maybe just i'd say striving for the perfect product before before you know trying to
move on it or test it out with customers founders tend to be i think a bit perfectionist with with
their product which naturally so i guess to a certain point but yeah i think it's easy to get
caught up in the trap of thinking it's not good enough yet, or this iteration could still improve
before testing it out in the market. I agree. Ship it.
Ship it. Yeah, I agree. And I think a variation on that. We were talking about that. We're talking
about both Ambus and Breeze, who are two super successful companies at slightly different stages,
but just keep iterating on things.
So I would say, yeah, don't be locked into your vision.
I think Bitcoin is such a new protocol
that has things that we're just not used to thinking about
that it's important to be kind of open-minded
about how your customers are using your product
or what they're asking for.
So yeah, I think that's a variation on Israel's answer,
but I hope it counts.
No, it does.
I think Israel's right.
Like Bezos talks about this too, right?
where they built the Fire Phone or whatever.
And that probably didn't work for them,
but it was able to lead them to a different thing
like the Alexa or whatever.
So I think you're right.
I think sometimes you just got to ship things
and then you might have like the really good idea
or you feel really strongly about intuitively or whatever,
and then it just doesn't work for whatever reason.
But there might be some technology from that
or some kind of experience you could pull from that
that you can pivot to.
And the customers always end up telling you,
you know, the feedback mechanisms are there, you know, whether it's because they're not using it,
then that's the, there you go, answer to your question. Or, you know, maybe you pay attention
to which customers are repeat users, and then you iterate on that, you know, what's the market fit
there. Sound like a founder, Israel. Sounds like you've been through it. Cool stuff. Well, I
appreciate y'all coming on the show and answering my crazy questions i mean i i just been able to
just watch out from afar and it's just so much so cool seeing everything and i really appreciate y'all
doing all the hard work that you're doing out there for founders and builders and
sharing it with the with the world and i look forward to that that quarterly newsletter at
some point in 2026 uh do you have anything last to say we appreciate you car i mean talk about
doing the hard work. You're the one who's really in the trenches with the founders doing the hard
work and helping them on their journey on a daily basis. We just kind of talk to them once you've
gotten them up and running. So we're big fans of yours and of Pleb Labs and just really appreciate
all the great work that you do. Yeah, same, Karin. Thanks for having us on and all the work that you
do there in Texas. I mean, I think it's proving to be a bit of a role model as an ecosystem as well
for many other, you know, cities and geographies. So you guys are killing it over there. And yeah,
thanks for your contributions to the ecosystem and for having us on. I really appreciate it.
Where can everybody find you guys at? If there's anybody that's listening that wants to get in
contact or where can i'll put all the links in the show notes but like where can people learn more
our dms are open twitter twitter x is probably the main platform where you can get in touch
apart from that israel at buildwithbitcoin.xyz lynn at buildwithbitcoin.xyz for email
and of course our website buildwithbitcoin.xyz
Thank you.
event.