1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:07,920 You know, the people who are in control right now aren't just going to say, OK, here's Bitcoin, you know, put their hands up and have a good time and just switch to Bitcoin. 2 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:13,980 It will be completely evident to the entire world that there is Bitcoin and there is the dollar. 3 00:00:14,380 --> 00:00:17,900 And one of them is on the ascent and one of them is dying. 4 00:00:18,420 --> 00:00:24,580 If I look back over the history of Bitcoin, it's only gone up and to the right the longer you look at it. 5 00:00:24,580 --> 00:00:34,080 That to me is like the beauty of Bitcoins. When we see these tragic events play out is that I know that there's a glimmer of hope in these places, even if not everyone there has figured it out yet. 6 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:39,340 Like Donald Trump doesn't know you. Donald Trump is never going to sit down and have a coffee with you. 7 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:45,780 But, you know, your local mayor or your counselor, whoever that is, you can actually go have a coffee with them. 8 00:00:45,820 --> 00:00:49,660 You actually can contact them. You actually can talk to them directly. 9 00:00:54,580 --> 00:01:03,940 Hey, everyone. Michael here with the Bitcoin Way podcast. Thank you for tuning in. Today on the 10 00:01:03,940 --> 00:01:10,000 show, I have Joel Hottleman. Joel is just a Bitcoin club. He's an awesome guy. He is such 11 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:15,100 a fascinating character, has some just great opinions. He was around Bitcoin in 2013, left, 12 00:01:15,220 --> 00:01:20,040 came back in 2021 after his eyes were opened by COVID, the Canadian truckers protests, 13 00:01:20,180 --> 00:01:24,200 all the other madness going on in the world at that time. We just had a fun conversation 14 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:29,840 talking about Bitcoin adoption, why Bitcoin, how it fixes so many of the problems that we see today. 15 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:34,520 You will enjoy this one. Hey, everyone. Like I said in the intro, I've got Joel here with me. 16 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:38,260 Joel, welcome to the Bitcoin Way podcast. Thanks for having me, Michael. 17 00:01:38,980 --> 00:01:43,180 Yeah, I'm looking forward to this conversation. So I think we have a mutual friend or at least 18 00:01:43,180 --> 00:01:49,120 a mutual Bitcoiner in Adam Semecka. And he told me, he said, hey, you should reach out to Joel, 19 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:53,940 talk to him. He'd be a fun guy and an interesting guy to chat with. So I'm looking forward to the 20 00:01:53,940 --> 00:02:00,080 conversation. I told you, candidly, it's not like I had a bunch of topics that I knew you and I 21 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:05,080 should dig into, but I think we could probably cover a lot of ground. The big question everyone's 22 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:11,040 asking right now, obviously, is what's going on with price action? Why is it down? I mean, 23 00:02:11,060 --> 00:02:17,260 we have war. Isn't it supposed to be a store of value? You told me offline, you started out in 24 00:02:17,260 --> 00:02:24,380 2013, you kind of left, came back just in the last five or six years. As someone who's seen 25 00:02:24,380 --> 00:02:29,760 Bitcoin go up and down and up and down, what's your general assessment of what we're seeing right 26 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:35,840 now? I think for myself, that's where I have the benefit, even though I would say like I'm a 27 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:43,540 Bitcoiner as of 2021. I was exposed to Bitcoin in 2013, kind of dabbled with it, you know, 28 00:02:43,540 --> 00:02:49,540 kind of swung trade it in 2013, got out, saw it as mostly as something that would be used for 29 00:02:49,540 --> 00:02:54,320 criminals and wasn't something that I wanted to associate myself with, if that makes sense. 30 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:59,660 But it was something that I continue to kind of keep my eye on. For times it was, you know, 31 00:02:59,660 --> 00:03:06,700 say once a week, it was, you know, monthly, I would say is basically my general sort of, 32 00:03:06,700 --> 00:03:14,060 you know, keeping tabs on it since 2013. And I think looking back, the benefit, 33 00:03:14,180 --> 00:03:17,580 even though I wasn't really in it, but I was kind of keeping an eye on it was 34 00:03:17,580 --> 00:03:23,920 I have basically just seen it go up. And as much as, you know, in times I was looking at it, 35 00:03:23,920 --> 00:03:27,980 it's like, oh, you know, I was smart of not getting in here because, you know, it's dip back 36 00:03:27,980 --> 00:03:32,700 down. But then I'm also was worrying about it that, you know, now it's at a thousand dollars. 37 00:03:32,700 --> 00:03:36,340 And when I was first introduced to it, it was one hundred and twenty three US dollars. 38 00:03:36,340 --> 00:03:39,580 And, you know, now it's $1,300. 39 00:03:39,580 --> 00:03:42,740 But then thinking I'm smart again because it's now at $700. 40 00:03:42,740 --> 00:03:48,180 But if I look back over the history of Bitcoin, it's only gone up into the right 41 00:03:48,540 --> 00:03:49,620 the longer you look at it. 42 00:03:49,620 --> 00:03:55,220 So when we look at it in the short term, and I think it's really easy for us to look at 43 00:03:55,220 --> 00:03:58,760 Bitcoin over the last six months of downward pressure, 44 00:03:59,260 --> 00:04:01,220 we can get worried and we can get emotional. 45 00:04:01,220 --> 00:04:15,120 But when in doubt, zoom out like that's a cliche kind of saying, but it really is beneficial in looking at Bitcoin because the farther you look out on on the charts, the more you just see it's just going up. 46 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:20,980 You ignore all of those little dips and divots that are in that line and they're negligible. 47 00:04:20,980 --> 00:04:32,480 And when, you know, when when Bitcoin started to crash in 2021 and then into the early 2022, it was pretty scary for me because I had just gotten in. 48 00:04:32,660 --> 00:04:34,900 I basically got in right at the all time high. 49 00:04:34,900 --> 00:04:45,020 I think my first real big buy in was was sixty seven thousand dollars, you know, and a couple of days later was like, oh, yeah, like everybody's cheering again that that we're at six nine K. 50 00:04:45,140 --> 00:04:50,760 And we're all thinking we're going to go to like one hundred thousand, hundred twenty five thousand was kind of what I remember being. 51 00:04:50,980 --> 00:04:54,880 kind of the consensus of the top that we were all kind of looking for. 52 00:04:55,220 --> 00:04:56,880 And obviously that never came. 53 00:04:57,540 --> 00:05:00,040 And that was kind of the short term hopium. 54 00:05:00,620 --> 00:05:07,120 And I think if anything that I've learned over the last little while is to stop looking at the short term, 55 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:11,580 stop looking at Bitcoin in, you know, especially don't be looking at it daily. 56 00:05:11,580 --> 00:05:14,760 Don't be looking at it as like a weekly, oh, it's going to go up. 57 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:20,240 But even six months to a year, the longer you can push that out, 58 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:26,840 I think the better. I was on a podcast in August and the host asked me, you know, what are your 59 00:05:26,840 --> 00:05:33,100 price predictions for the end of 2026? And I had told him, I thought that the price by the end of, 60 00:05:33,220 --> 00:05:40,900 or sorry, the end of 2025 would be like $200,000. And obviously we didn't come close to that at all. 61 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:45,940 So kind of looking back on that over the last, I don't know, what is that eight, nine months or 62 00:05:45,940 --> 00:05:55,000 whatever. Or I guess shorten that, but I stopped looking at the price in Bitcoin in the short term 63 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:59,480 and just kind of look at it. You know, I saw something really great from someone a couple 64 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:04,540 days ago, I think it was, was, you know, it's a good day to buy Bitcoin today if you think that 65 00:06:04,540 --> 00:06:08,760 the price of Bitcoin is going to be higher in five years than it is today. And, you know, 66 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:14,480 the more you can think about it in like a four year, a five year, a 10 year, a 20 year type 67 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:18,780 investment, if that's what you want to call it. I think that's where you're not going to get 68 00:06:18,780 --> 00:06:24,520 emotional about, um, you know, these price swings and these price dips. Like I was happy to buy 69 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:33,360 Bitcoin at $126,000. I'm happy to buy it today at whatever it is, 66, $67,000. So, um, I personally 70 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:39,420 see it as a gift because I did value it as something that was valuable at $126,000. Uh, 71 00:06:39,420 --> 00:06:42,520 the value of Bitcoin is the same today as it was then. 72 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:44,980 So, yeah, I actually I'll, 73 00:06:44,980 --> 00:06:48,040 I'll expand upon that thought if I could for a moment, if you, 74 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:50,180 we take for granted in the West, 75 00:06:50,180 --> 00:06:52,620 some of what we've just been talking about here. 76 00:06:52,980 --> 00:06:58,300 If you're in Iran today, you, you, you, that's your option, right? 77 00:06:58,300 --> 00:07:02,720 Like, I mean, if you, if you want to transfer value and you, I'm sure, 78 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:05,180 I haven't heard this, but I'm sure there are internet outages, 79 00:07:05,380 --> 00:07:07,120 powers down in many places. 80 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:16,660 the Iranian real is completely failed. Like those people are getting a front and center seat to 81 00:07:16,660 --> 00:07:22,400 why Bitcoin. And so it's easy to say, hey, like if you think about this over the long term, 82 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:26,480 don't worry about the price. And by the way, I agree with you on your sentiment. 83 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:34,240 But there are millions and millions of people that we sometimes forget about around the world who 84 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:37,520 need it for all of the things that have very little to do with number go up. 85 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:42,740 They need it because it's censorship resistant and it's permissionless and they can walk 86 00:07:42,740 --> 00:07:47,100 across a border with it, memorizing 12 or 24 words in their head, you know. 87 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:52,320 And so that to me is like the beauty of Bitcoin is when we see these tragic events play out 88 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:55,920 is that I know that there's a glimmer of hope in these places, even if not everyone 89 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:57,440 there has figured it out yet. 90 00:07:57,440 --> 00:07:59,980 So I'll just add that. 91 00:07:59,980 --> 00:08:05,400 What was it that in 2021, what brought you back to Bitcoin? 92 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:06,860 Was it COVID? 93 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:09,440 Was it a combination of factors? 94 00:08:09,980 --> 00:08:10,920 Combination of factors. 95 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:13,140 I think for me, definitely COVID. 96 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:19,120 I'm from Canada, but stimulus for you guys was no different. 97 00:08:19,220 --> 00:08:21,240 But I think we had a lot more stimulus here. 98 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:23,160 Just payments going out. 99 00:08:23,300 --> 00:08:28,580 I think for us, it was every two weeks we would get $1,200 if we were laid off, 100 00:08:28,580 --> 00:08:33,320 not in like working or anything like that, which is just crazy. 101 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:35,580 And businesses were getting money on top of that. 102 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:38,360 And it was my son. 103 00:08:38,500 --> 00:08:44,640 So our second child was born July or sorry, January 7th, 2021. 104 00:08:45,020 --> 00:08:47,120 So it was a couple of days after his birth. 105 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:51,860 Actually, I remember holding him and looking at him and thinking that all of the money 106 00:08:51,860 --> 00:08:59,400 that had just been spent over the last, you know, nine, 10 months, you know, he was going to be 107 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:04,220 paying for for the next 70 years, basically his whole life. And that's just the money that was 108 00:09:04,220 --> 00:09:09,560 spent over the year of 2020. That wasn't me thinking about all the money that was going to 109 00:09:09,560 --> 00:09:15,680 be spent in 2021, 2022, 2023. But knowing that the government was going to continue to spend 110 00:09:15,680 --> 00:09:19,660 And at this point, stimuluses were still going out here. 111 00:09:20,300 --> 00:09:21,400 Businesses weren't open. 112 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:26,100 I knew that the COVID shots were coming and there was going to be funding for that. 113 00:09:26,100 --> 00:09:31,400 And there's going to be a whole lot of money printing and money debasement and inflation. 114 00:09:31,900 --> 00:09:45,420 And where I was introduced to Bitcoin in 2013 as an inflation hedge, I actually laughed at the person who told me that because I said that the American dollar or the Canadian dollar doesn't experience inflation as for the Argentine peso. 115 00:09:45,680 --> 00:09:49,780 And today I call the Canadian dollar the snow peso. 116 00:09:49,780 --> 00:09:52,720 So that's kind of what I think of the Canadian dollar. 117 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:59,340 And unfortunately, the U.S. dollar is not a whole lot stronger, though I do think is obviously stronger than the Canadian dollar. 118 00:09:59,620 --> 00:10:08,100 But yeah, I was really looking at my son and then now thinking as a father, I'm here to protect my son. 119 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:09,920 I'm here to teach my son. 120 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:18,380 And I'm here to try and make him into the man that I want him to be, the man that I think the Lord wants him to be. 121 00:10:18,900 --> 00:10:21,700 And part of that is I need to be those those things, too. 122 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:23,760 I need to be the man that I want him to be. 123 00:10:23,900 --> 00:10:27,780 I need to be the man that, you know, God expects of me to be. 124 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:30,760 So that includes a whole bunch of things. 125 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:38,680 But in that kind of moment, I was sort of looking at, you know, his financial health, his financial well-being, his financial security. 126 00:10:38,680 --> 00:10:52,920 And it was kind of this, well, you know, I've been looking at Bitcoin for, you know, the last, you know, seven, eight years. I had just sort of started to think a little bit about, you know, stocks and all that sort of stuff. 127 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:59,840 And I've seen that sort of run out of grips and, you know, being able to accumulate. 128 00:11:00,260 --> 00:11:12,020 And, you know, real estate was something that when me and my wife got married in 2017, we could have bought something that would have fit for us, but knew that we wanted to start a family and build and all that sort of stuff. 129 00:11:12,020 --> 00:11:16,880 So sort of delayed that. And then by the time it was like we kind of felt like, hey, you know, we should buy a home. 130 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:22,720 Well, now the home acquisition ability is is far gone. Right. It just ran away from us. 131 00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:43,040 So it's looking at him going, you know, how do I protect him? How do I protect his older sister? How do I protect, you know, future kids, myself, all that sort of thing. So it was kind of, you know, about eight or nine months of me studying and looking at Bitcoin because I didn't want to jump into Bitcoin. 132 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:48,040 I'm not someone who, like, I'm a rational person. 133 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:49,580 I think through my moves. 134 00:11:49,740 --> 00:11:52,860 I do what needs to be done, not out of emotion. 135 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:58,320 And I didn't want to act on emotion because I kind of did that earlier in life, right? 136 00:12:00,540 --> 00:12:02,560 So studied Bitcoin for a while. 137 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:09,640 And then basically, yeah, in, I don't know if it was September or early October of 2021, 138 00:12:10,140 --> 00:12:12,840 decided, hey, you know, this is what I need to do. 139 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:18,880 though also bought some, you know, shit coins and some other stocks and that sort of stuff that way 140 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:25,280 that were presented to me as, you know, blue chip stocks like Google, Apple, those types of things. 141 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:33,020 So, yeah, it was all basically with the idea of I need to create financial security for for me and 142 00:12:33,020 --> 00:12:41,000 my family and kind of have that generational thought. You're speaking my language. So my son 143 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:47,620 was born in March of 2021. So he's my only boy. And, uh, I, I spoke about this at Prague last 144 00:12:47,620 --> 00:12:54,980 year because I, after he was born, it wasn't until 2022 that I found Bitcoin, but I, you know, 145 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:59,800 in the first year of his life, I was beginning to think a lot about like this, like when you're, 146 00:12:59,880 --> 00:13:04,260 when you're a father, it resonates having a boy, I think in a different way than having a, having a 147 00:13:04,260 --> 00:13:09,680 girl. And I was thinking about, um, just like, as I got into Bitcoin, I began to learn a little bit 148 00:13:09,680 --> 00:13:14,400 to piece together like how the money sort of sits at the top and everything else is downstream. 149 00:13:15,740 --> 00:13:20,480 You know, the forever wars. I mean, dude, look at us now. We're looking at this again. 150 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:28,580 You know, the way that I want him to take care of himself for like, how am I going to 151 00:13:28,580 --> 00:13:36,640 feed and nourish my family? Like all of these things. And I sort of realized I was sort of on 152 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:40,400 the right track. And especially once I went down the Bitcoin rabbit hole, a lot of things became 153 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:47,140 very clear, but it makes you really question each of those little decisions because your kids are 154 00:13:47,140 --> 00:13:53,060 watching everything you do. Right. And, uh, and one of the things for me is like, in like working 155 00:13:53,060 --> 00:13:59,720 in the Bitcoin space now, I want my kids to look back and understand I'm not like, hopefully their 156 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:05,280 mom can tell them the story, but that when the whole world thought Bitcoin was a scam or a Ponzi 157 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:08,480 or it was going to boil the oceans or it would never work or whatever, 158 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:10,960 I was out there trying to educate them. 159 00:14:11,020 --> 00:14:14,420 And that's where I was saving the value of my work. 160 00:14:15,460 --> 00:14:20,060 Because I think all this stuff, it matters and it's going to influence the next generation. 161 00:14:20,340 --> 00:14:23,000 So when you told me I've got three kids and one on the way, 162 00:14:23,140 --> 00:14:24,920 I'm excited because I'm in the same boat. 163 00:14:25,060 --> 00:14:28,400 And we need a lot more Bitcoin babies out there, in my opinion. 164 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:37,580 um how do you so so i well i guess it may be as a as a personal question when the price is dipping 165 00:14:37,580 --> 00:14:43,640 like this do you have people in your life who know you're the bitcoin guy and are they mocking you do 166 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:48,260 they even pay attention are all your friends and family orange pill like what what's sort of the 167 00:14:48,260 --> 00:14:56,520 status of your world um i think it's sort of shifted uh the last year uh there's been a lot 168 00:14:56,520 --> 00:15:04,920 of people in my life that I don't want to necessarily say it's because of me. And definitely 169 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:10,660 it's not because of me. But yeah, I think there's been a number of people in my life, just like in my 170 00:15:10,660 --> 00:15:17,940 general circle, who have found Bitcoin, which we've kind of started a Bitcoin meetup, but we 171 00:15:17,940 --> 00:15:22,520 haven't done it in a few months. We kind of were doing it around campfires in the summer. It's now 172 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:26,120 winter out here, it's white snow and it's kind of difficult to do that. 173 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:42,638 I not saying that we can It just how we were doing it But yeah it been I think there been a bit of a sentiment change in general people around me When I talk about Bitcoin I find that people are being a little bit more receptive and 174 00:15:42,638 --> 00:15:48,098 open to it than they have been in prior years, which I think is interesting and encouraging 175 00:15:48,098 --> 00:15:53,958 because the price has gone down. And maybe that's because we didn't have that huge run up at the end 176 00:15:53,958 --> 00:15:59,578 of the cycle, if that's what we want to call it, where people weren't getting exposed to the 177 00:15:59,578 --> 00:16:05,378 hopium and the big, you know, FOMO Bitcoin and then see it all crash. I was talking with someone 178 00:16:05,378 --> 00:16:10,598 last week about Bitcoin. And, you know, when I brought it up, it's always kind of this, you know, 179 00:16:10,638 --> 00:16:16,078 I'm always assuming that when I bring up Bitcoin to a normie of someone who I don't know is in 180 00:16:16,078 --> 00:16:22,538 Bitcoin, that they're just going to completely reject it and think that I'm an idiot. So that's, 181 00:16:22,538 --> 00:16:36,758 I usually don't necessarily lead with Bitcoin. I lead with some other questions or, you know, statements that kind of get the feel of where people are at in what they might look at the economy or what they think of the world and that sort of stuff. 182 00:16:37,478 --> 00:16:43,798 But yeah, I brought it up with him and he was just like, oh, like this Bitcoin thing, like, like, why don't you tell me more about it? 183 00:16:43,798 --> 00:16:45,238 Like that's, that's really interesting. 184 00:16:45,238 --> 00:16:50,478 And then, you know, for whatever reason, we ended up down like the heat punk sort of rabbit 185 00:16:50,478 --> 00:16:55,058 hole of, of Bitcoin, which that's something that like just a sidebar conversation. 186 00:16:55,058 --> 00:16:59,178 That's one thing that I would love to get into and explore the idea of that more. 187 00:16:59,858 --> 00:17:02,218 But I'm just scratching the surface on, on that. 188 00:17:02,358 --> 00:17:07,698 But yeah, I think there's just, there's a little bit more receptiveness to Bitcoin for 189 00:17:07,698 --> 00:17:08,818 whatever reason around me. 190 00:17:08,838 --> 00:17:13,458 And maybe that's just, I can talk about it better or, you know, the environment's a little 191 00:17:13,458 --> 00:17:20,978 more fruitful that way to be able to do things and talk about it. But yeah, it's definitely not 192 00:17:20,978 --> 00:17:26,478 like I'm walking around with like my whole family and everybody that I know is Bitcoiners. 193 00:17:27,278 --> 00:17:32,858 Still definitely obviously feel the resistance. You know, for me, it's just, you know, when people 194 00:17:32,858 --> 00:17:36,618 come to me and they're like, hey, you know, Bitcoin, like how you feeling today about it? 195 00:17:36,638 --> 00:17:42,298 It's like, well, I have my own conviction on it and I've built into that. And there's not really 196 00:17:42,298 --> 00:17:48,218 anything that, you know, a friend's going to say to me, that's going to, uh, make me think any 197 00:17:48,218 --> 00:17:54,558 different. It's those moments that, um, you know, a friend reaches out to me who, you know, 198 00:17:54,698 --> 00:18:00,058 over the course of the last year, I do have a number of friends who have bought above what the 199 00:18:00,058 --> 00:18:05,198 price is today. And there's not a single one of them that are saying to me that they're, they're 200 00:18:05,198 --> 00:18:09,158 fearful. They're, they're messaging me saying like they are buying the dip or, Hey, you know, 201 00:18:09,158 --> 00:18:14,878 how much lower is it going to go? Should I put it all in now? Or should I, you know, and my response 202 00:18:14,878 --> 00:18:22,098 to that is just DCA don't ever, you know, ape in, but at the same time, like to me, where I am with 203 00:18:22,098 --> 00:18:28,778 my conviction is that if you're at ape in today and the price did go down to 40, 30, $20,000, 204 00:18:29,178 --> 00:18:34,618 like, so what the price, and again, four or five years is going to be multitude and higher than 205 00:18:34,618 --> 00:18:42,038 what it is today. So any entry point right now is a fair and good just entry point. It's not like 206 00:18:42,038 --> 00:18:48,238 stocks that you have to exactly time your buy and exactly time your sell with Bitcoin. I think you 207 00:18:48,238 --> 00:18:53,838 can just basically throw the dart at the wall, buy Bitcoin and spend it when you need to spend it. 208 00:18:54,498 --> 00:18:58,838 Yeah, I love that. Well, hey, let's talk about that for a minute. Spend it when you need to 209 00:18:58,838 --> 00:19:05,218 spend it. Are you like a, uh, are you a big circular economy guy? Like have you found vendors 210 00:19:05,218 --> 00:19:09,578 or are you pushing to get folks in your life who will accept Bitcoin as payment? 211 00:19:10,578 --> 00:19:17,858 It's so no, I have not really spent a whole lot of sats. Um, it's something that I think needs to 212 00:19:17,858 --> 00:19:26,378 happen. Uh, it's something that as, as I develop my conviction of Bitcoin, I've turned from 213 00:19:26,378 --> 00:19:32,718 seeing as something that I need to have for myself. 214 00:19:34,778 --> 00:19:37,758 And this is kind of a very new shift for me. 215 00:19:38,418 --> 00:19:44,078 So I don't think that Bitcoin should just be huddled for me. 216 00:19:44,078 --> 00:19:48,678 I think for me to respect my time and my energy and my efforts 217 00:19:48,678 --> 00:19:52,538 is to store that in Bitcoin, right? 218 00:19:53,078 --> 00:19:55,158 But if I'm also to love my neighbor, 219 00:19:55,158 --> 00:20:01,858 I should be giving them something that has the value that respects their time, energy, and effort 220 00:20:01,858 --> 00:20:06,558 as well. So yeah, I would say over the last few months, I've been really convicted and really 221 00:20:06,558 --> 00:20:16,258 struggled with this idea that I earn fiat, I earn Canadian dollars, I convert my Canadian dollars to 222 00:20:16,258 --> 00:20:22,718 Bitcoin. I sell Bitcoin if I need to sell Bitcoin back into Canadian dollars to then pay expenses or 223 00:20:22,718 --> 00:20:30,858 to buy things or give stuff for services. To me, there hasn't been a whole lot of services around 224 00:20:30,858 --> 00:20:37,798 that I have found that use Bitcoin. We don't have square terminals here in Canada that allow you to 225 00:20:37,798 --> 00:20:43,698 use lightning, though, you know, I'm probably not looking hard enough. There's probably ways of 226 00:20:43,698 --> 00:20:50,318 doing it, but it's kind of having those conversations. And again, I think I maybe 227 00:20:50,318 --> 00:20:56,058 unfortunately start in the wrong spot where I'm always assuming that the person's not going to be 228 00:20:56,058 --> 00:21:04,018 receptive to Bitcoin. But maybe they are. And maybe I just need to ask and say, hey, would you 229 00:21:04,018 --> 00:21:10,078 accept Bitcoin? Can we set up a lightning invoice and send sats that way? Because it's really not 230 00:21:10,078 --> 00:21:16,198 that difficult. And the more I play around with lightning wallets and that sort of stuff and 231 00:21:16,198 --> 00:21:21,518 figure those out. Like it's just as simple as sending an e-transfer. Like it's, it's no, 232 00:21:21,658 --> 00:21:27,578 it's actually, I think it's quite easier than, than sending me transfer. So, um, 233 00:21:27,578 --> 00:21:35,718 no, I I'm with you, man. I, so I have tried to make a very diligent effort the last six months, 234 00:21:35,798 --> 00:21:41,878 call it to orange pill people. So like I've, for anyone, anyone listening, I'm sorry. I'm 235 00:21:41,878 --> 00:21:45,418 going to just tell him the same thing you've heard from me a million times. I've been working 236 00:21:45,418 --> 00:21:50,858 orange pill my church um so i've had a couple meetings with the leadership team with the uh 237 00:21:50,858 --> 00:21:56,618 church council and i got them to accept my gift of bitcoin for that one there were no strings 238 00:21:56,618 --> 00:22:01,098 attached because it's my home church and i didn't feel like that was the way to do it but i requested 239 00:22:01,098 --> 00:22:05,578 that they would hold it for four or five years um and eventually i'm going to get them into self 240 00:22:05,578 --> 00:22:11,018 custody they're on a good exchange right now but obviously especially as a guy who we sell you know 241 00:22:11,018 --> 00:22:15,958 training for self-custody, not where I want them to be, but their conviction needs to get there to 242 00:22:15,958 --> 00:22:22,598 where they're going to be able to learn the skills. And then I've got a farmer's market near my house 243 00:22:22,598 --> 00:22:31,498 that opens sometime in May. And at the end of last summer, I had started to sort of ask some people 244 00:22:31,498 --> 00:22:35,438 if they'd accept Bitcoin, but didn't really, it's kind of one-off short conversations. 245 00:22:35,438 --> 00:22:42,158 my goal is to basically orange spill the entire farmer's market this year to get anyone who I 246 00:22:42,158 --> 00:22:48,238 buy something from to accept Bitcoin or at least to commit to, hey, let me learn a little bit about 247 00:22:48,238 --> 00:22:54,918 this before I accept it and then go from there. Because I think you're right. Most people are 248 00:22:54,918 --> 00:23:01,218 going to think you're a little bit crazy. It's becoming maybe a bit more of an acceptable topic. 249 00:23:01,218 --> 00:23:07,978 You know, if they're watching mainstream news, they're hearing Bitcoin probably a little bit more than they did five years ago. 250 00:23:08,538 --> 00:23:10,478 But it's still an uphill battle, I think. 251 00:23:10,578 --> 00:23:15,038 They still think it's magic internet money or there's, you know, something like that. 252 00:23:15,318 --> 00:23:16,938 I don't know if that's been your experience. 253 00:23:17,798 --> 00:23:18,338 Yeah, for sure. 254 00:23:18,498 --> 00:23:25,098 And I think there might be a little bit of a difference being here in Canada, the United States. 255 00:23:25,218 --> 00:23:28,938 I don't think our mainstream media at all is talking about Bitcoin. 256 00:23:28,938 --> 00:23:35,798 I think Bitcoin is really only being talked about the mainstream media in America because the administration is talking about it. 257 00:23:36,158 --> 00:23:42,058 If anything, from the mainstream media is it's been demonized here in Canada. 258 00:23:42,198 --> 00:23:49,058 The whole trucker convoy here was, you know, to demonize Bitcoin. 259 00:23:49,758 --> 00:23:55,738 And, you know, you had Trudeau kind of, you know, pushing back on Bitcoin and calling it what he called it. 260 00:23:55,738 --> 00:24:08,938 And Pierre Polyev, who was the opposition leader, was supportive of it. And basically, since the trucker convoy has largely been mute on Bitcoin and all of that. 261 00:24:08,938 --> 00:24:26,318 So, yeah, I mean, we don't necessarily have to go there for this conversation, but I do think that, you know, a political party that actually wants to do something good would be to adopt a healthy strategic Bitcoin policy. 262 00:24:26,318 --> 00:24:30,358 That doesn't necessarily mean to have to have a Bitcoin reserve. 263 00:24:30,358 --> 00:24:38,038 But I think, you know, for local level, you know, at the federal level, they can print money. 264 00:24:38,038 --> 00:24:52,238 But, you know, your state for us, our province, you know, your local municipality, you're really hand strung to what the Federal Reserve, the Central Bank, Bank Canada, Bank England, like whatever that is, their policies. 265 00:24:52,838 --> 00:25:06,738 And it would be smart for, you know, especially the local cities, townships, whatever, to opt out of that and be able to kind of control their own funding that way. 266 00:25:06,738 --> 00:25:25,078 Yeah, that's an that's an interesting comment, because I I think I hate government more than anyone that I know. And I've thought about this before where I so I'm I think philosophically, I trend toward anarcho capitalism. 267 00:25:25,078 --> 00:25:29,718 practically I look at the world and I say, you know, I think government on some level is going 268 00:25:29,718 --> 00:25:34,458 to emerge. What's the best that we can do? And I think the more localized that can be, the better. 269 00:25:34,858 --> 00:25:41,218 I've actually thought about, should I be pitching a strategic Bitcoin reserve to my local, 270 00:25:41,438 --> 00:25:48,158 you know, to the town that I live in? Because that might enable them, you know, for 20 years to have 271 00:25:48,158 --> 00:25:53,018 sort of an ability to do things that they just wouldn't otherwise be able to do. 272 00:25:53,018 --> 00:25:57,958 whereas even at like for you know you at the provincial level or for us at the state 273 00:25:57,958 --> 00:26:04,538 um still that government still feels too big to me you know like i live two hours away from our 274 00:26:04,538 --> 00:26:09,678 state capital and i'm like you don't really care what's going on in my life and i live in a state 275 00:26:09,678 --> 00:26:16,778 they don't they don't know you right um i i think like ideally it would be that 276 00:26:16,778 --> 00:26:22,618 your local government your town your city whatever you're in would be the the level of 277 00:26:22,618 --> 00:26:29,638 government that has the most impact on your life because they're the one who know you. They're the 278 00:26:29,638 --> 00:26:34,018 one who can actually have a conversation with you. And the farther you get out from that being state, 279 00:26:34,198 --> 00:26:39,778 federal, all of that, they're so much farther removed from you. They don't actually know you. 280 00:26:39,838 --> 00:26:47,598 And that's not to say that they don't have maybe their spot in government or a need, but like 281 00:26:47,598 --> 00:26:52,758 Donald Trump doesn't know you. Donald Trump is never going to sit down and have a coffee with 282 00:26:52,758 --> 00:26:58,898 you. But, you know, your local mayor or your, you know, your councillor, whoever that is, 283 00:26:59,278 --> 00:27:04,258 you can actually go have a coffee with them. You actually can contact them. You actually can 284 00:27:04,258 --> 00:27:09,838 talk to them directly and they can know your needs and they can advocate for you. So I think that 285 00:27:09,838 --> 00:27:16,918 if a city wants to do what a city wants to do for the actual people of the city that they represent, 286 00:27:16,918 --> 00:27:23,278 they kind of have to distance themselves away from the control of, you know, a bigger, larger 287 00:27:23,278 --> 00:27:30,578 government than them. And I think that if we were to shift to, you know, Bitcoin, you take away the 288 00:27:30,578 --> 00:27:36,158 power of a federal government, you take power away from the state government, and you shift 289 00:27:36,158 --> 00:27:43,698 the higher amount of power from the top right now being the federal government to the local 290 00:27:43,698 --> 00:27:49,598 government than being at the top. And I think that that will, I think there's better incentives 291 00:27:49,598 --> 00:27:55,718 running that way. And that's not to say that every city and every town is going to do it right. 292 00:27:56,058 --> 00:28:00,838 But if a town's doing it wrong, you're just essentially going to move and you're not going 293 00:28:00,838 --> 00:28:06,878 to, or you're going to vote them out. Right. Yeah. I think that's, yeah, I think that's a good point 294 00:28:06,878 --> 00:28:12,038 because it's been a struggle for me because I just have like this, such a firm bias against 295 00:28:12,038 --> 00:28:20,258 up against government. I'll just say that broadly. But I think I agree with you that at a localized 296 00:28:20,258 --> 00:28:24,878 level, first of all, you're right. To some degree, they're your neighbors, you know, unless you just 297 00:28:24,878 --> 00:28:29,738 live in a massive municipality where, you know, it's just it's like its own little state or 298 00:28:29,738 --> 00:28:35,598 something. But you might have the ability to influence things in a way that you just can't 299 00:28:35,598 --> 00:28:37,438 Once you're further removed. 300 00:28:38,038 --> 00:28:44,018 Were you like when I understand you're Canadian, so maybe you don't follow this quite as closely. 301 00:28:44,018 --> 00:28:49,218 But like when Trump announced the Strategic Bitcoin Reserve, it was an executive order. 302 00:28:49,338 --> 00:28:51,118 So it's not been passed into law or anything. 303 00:28:51,218 --> 00:28:52,618 He basically just decreed it. 304 00:28:53,578 --> 00:28:57,798 Was that something that you were excited about as a Canadian? 305 00:28:57,958 --> 00:28:59,458 Like, hey, is this the way the world's headed? 306 00:28:59,458 --> 00:29:06,498 or were you like, I was excited at first, but I wasn't as far along on my journey. And now I'm 307 00:29:06,498 --> 00:29:10,618 like, I don't want the federal government to have any Bitcoin. They can only do that through theft. 308 00:29:10,958 --> 00:29:17,318 Where did you stand on that? Yeah, I think maybe I'll answer your question for, 309 00:29:18,378 --> 00:29:23,518 I was excited. Yes, I was bullish. I was happy. I was excited that Trump 310 00:29:23,518 --> 00:29:30,878 had that executive order, I guess that's still on the table and more can be done with it possibly 311 00:29:30,878 --> 00:29:38,118 over the next three or so years. Where I'm on it right now is sort of what you had mentioned. 312 00:29:38,338 --> 00:29:43,358 I'm kind of murky on it. But at the end of the day, I think that Bitcoin is for everybody. 313 00:29:43,838 --> 00:29:47,838 And that includes my enemies. And not to say that I think Donald Trump is my enemy, 314 00:29:47,838 --> 00:29:54,398 But the worst person in the world, Bitcoin is for them. Right. And I think that Bitcoin. 315 00:29:55,398 --> 00:30:07,178 Will make them a better person will because it drives incentives. So when we look on what's going on around the world, again, a large portion of that is government based. 316 00:30:07,178 --> 00:30:13,458 if governments get into Bitcoin, I think that regardless of if that's through theft, 317 00:30:13,518 --> 00:30:18,738 which I don't agree with, whether that's printing their dollars, which again, that's devaluing. 318 00:30:18,738 --> 00:30:26,098 I don't actually think that that's a wise or smart move to do either. But I think that it's, 319 00:30:26,878 --> 00:30:33,718 I don't want to call Bitcoin like an illness, but sort of like if they get the bug of Bitcoin, 320 00:30:33,718 --> 00:30:38,678 like it's an illness, it's going to eventually spread throughout the body, right? But like in 321 00:30:38,678 --> 00:30:43,918 the positive sense, not the illness being a negative sense, right? So I think that if, 322 00:30:43,918 --> 00:30:49,718 you know, the United States goes that route and actually does what we kind of were hoping 323 00:30:49,718 --> 00:30:55,358 Trump was going to do about a year ago, if, you know, other countries start to do that, 324 00:30:55,438 --> 00:31:01,018 I think that just based on incentives, it's going to end up being a better world. So yes, 325 00:31:01,018 --> 00:31:14,076 I am still happy and excited I not necessarily hopeful or thinking that Trump is going to enact on the executive order the way that we all were hoping he was going to 326 00:31:14,876 --> 00:31:15,316 Yeah. 327 00:31:15,776 --> 00:31:16,056 Okay. 328 00:31:16,136 --> 00:31:17,316 I think that's probably fair. 329 00:31:17,836 --> 00:31:20,296 Do you, hey, actually, hey, can we take a step back? 330 00:31:20,296 --> 00:31:23,956 Because you mentioned, you said you didn't know if this was something we wanted to get 331 00:31:23,956 --> 00:31:28,096 into, but the Canadian trucker protest, I meant to revisit that. 332 00:31:28,956 --> 00:31:31,376 Did you have something in particular you wanted to say? 333 00:31:31,376 --> 00:31:34,556 So you don't have to answer this question if this isn't interesting. 334 00:31:35,196 --> 00:31:43,496 One thing I've always wondered that I've never asked a Canadian is what was the I know what the mainstream media was saying during the Canadian trucker protests. 335 00:31:43,496 --> 00:31:53,316 I don't know anything about the sentiment of the average Canadian, so to speak, and to what extent they heard about Bitcoin being used. 336 00:31:53,316 --> 00:31:58,216 and that led to them to distrust Bitcoiners 337 00:31:58,216 --> 00:32:01,876 or if it led them to recognize it as a potential tool? 338 00:32:01,876 --> 00:32:05,596 What was the climate like around all of this? 339 00:32:06,356 --> 00:32:11,816 Yeah, I would say that I live in a fairly liberal city. 340 00:32:12,336 --> 00:32:15,456 I definitely work in a very liberal environment. 341 00:32:16,616 --> 00:32:19,456 What do you do for work? 342 00:32:19,456 --> 00:32:28,636 um i work within a government entity essentially um yeah i work for the government i mean probably 343 00:32:28,636 --> 00:32:34,996 40 of canada works for the government at at the end of the day so um but uh yeah so 344 00:32:34,996 --> 00:32:45,636 yeah it's uh i definitely work in a in a liberal environment um so if i were to 345 00:32:45,636 --> 00:32:49,736 take the general pulse of people that are around me. They probably 346 00:32:49,736 --> 00:32:53,836 were neutral to not favorable 347 00:32:53,836 --> 00:32:57,796 of the convoy, though I live... 348 00:32:57,796 --> 00:33:01,416 So here in Ontario, we have the major highway. It's called the 401. 349 00:33:02,296 --> 00:33:05,796 It's the most busiest highway in North America, though 350 00:33:05,796 --> 00:33:09,456 I think that's kind of skewed. But basically, that ends up going through Toronto. 351 00:33:09,456 --> 00:33:13,436 That goes all the way from Windsor to 352 00:33:13,436 --> 00:33:20,776 Montreal. So, so Windsor is just the other side of Detroit and it goes basically right across, 353 00:33:20,776 --> 00:33:29,096 you know, the Southern region of, of Ontario. So if you were to go like two minutes down the road 354 00:33:29,096 --> 00:33:34,996 from where, where I live right now, and you were to go on to the bridge that goes over the 401. 355 00:33:34,996 --> 00:33:41,456 So the overpass over, over the 401, you would not have found a spot if you did not get there 356 00:33:41,456 --> 00:33:49,176 early enough. There were hundreds of people that were packing every single bridge. And that wasn't 357 00:33:49,176 --> 00:33:54,396 even like, I remember I went down, like I drove down and, and, and, you know, did a loop on the 358 00:33:54,396 --> 00:34:00,016 401. There were people on those bridges and it wasn't even the trucker protest convoy going 359 00:34:00,016 --> 00:34:04,436 through yet. And, and like every truckers honking their horns. So there definitely was 360 00:34:04,436 --> 00:34:09,876 a support even within, I would say the liberal environment that I kind of live in. 361 00:34:09,876 --> 00:34:18,116 um but yeah i think there was obviously the a great support for it but there also was the 362 00:34:18,116 --> 00:34:25,576 you know the people that that weren't for it they they saw the the truckers as as people who were 363 00:34:25,576 --> 00:34:31,576 doing something wrong and then you had kind of what was going out in um in alberta at coots um 364 00:34:31,576 --> 00:34:37,276 the the border blockage there that basically some some truckers had taken their trucks and and 365 00:34:37,276 --> 00:34:44,776 blocked the port of entry going to and from the United States to Canada in Alberta there, 366 00:34:45,416 --> 00:34:51,596 which kind of all got lumped into the same thing. And I think that's actually looking back, 367 00:34:51,676 --> 00:34:57,616 I think that was how Trudeau had declared the Emergencies Act, which then gave him all the 368 00:34:57,616 --> 00:35:03,556 powers to be able to do whatever he wanted to do during that. But yeah, I think a lot of it was 369 00:35:03,556 --> 00:35:10,136 just mainstream media, which all media here is liberal. There is no conservative mainstream 370 00:35:10,136 --> 00:35:15,916 media here in Canada. So at least like in the United States, I think it's, you know, 371 00:35:15,916 --> 00:35:21,356 you're still sucking the same tit, but at least you have like a liberal and a conservative being 372 00:35:21,356 --> 00:35:26,656 Fox and CNN or MSNBC or whatever that is. So at least you're sort of getting 373 00:35:26,656 --> 00:35:35,476 both skewed sides of things here in Canada, it's all just the same jargon garbage, uh, 374 00:35:35,476 --> 00:35:41,596 out of one side of the mouth. Though I would imagine you would echo the same 375 00:35:41,596 --> 00:35:47,576 sentiment as myself. Like it's all just garbage. Um, but yeah, that's essentially what people are, 376 00:35:47,576 --> 00:35:55,236 you know, fed here is CBC, CTV, city news, like whatever that is, it's all just mainstream liberal 377 00:35:55,236 --> 00:36:04,236 biased, you know, government fed, because they're really funded by the government with all of our 378 00:36:04,236 --> 00:36:08,916 subsidies and tax dollars that go towards them. So, I mean, of course, they're not going to say 379 00:36:08,916 --> 00:36:16,176 anything that is, you know, goes against the Liberal Party. And I think we sort of saw a little 380 00:36:16,176 --> 00:36:21,036 bit of a shift in the last year or so when it kind of looked like the Liberal government wasn't 381 00:36:21,036 --> 00:36:26,236 going to get in and conservative government with Pierre Paliyev was at least, you know, 382 00:36:26,296 --> 00:36:28,296 looking like he was going to become prime minister. 383 00:36:28,516 --> 00:36:33,776 They sort of changed their tune a little bit, but with that not happening in Canadian politics 384 00:36:33,776 --> 00:36:35,236 right now, it's just, just a mess. 385 00:36:36,176 --> 00:36:41,296 But yeah, it's the trucker convoy. 386 00:36:41,296 --> 00:36:43,676 Wasn't really looked at that great. 387 00:36:43,676 --> 00:36:48,636 And, and, and Bitcoin was talked about in parliament though. 388 00:36:48,636 --> 00:36:52,936 again, how many people actually watch the videos and stuff that come out of parliament. 389 00:36:53,716 --> 00:36:59,096 But yeah, it was definitely by, you know, Trudeau was talked about negatively on the house floor. 390 00:36:59,836 --> 00:37:04,256 Christine Freeland, who was our finance minister at the time, definitely talked about it negatively 391 00:37:04,256 --> 00:37:10,396 at the time and basically demonized it. And, you know, I think there were 10 Bitcoin wallet 392 00:37:10,396 --> 00:37:15,036 addresses that were told that, you know, you're, you're not allowed to transact with them, which 393 00:37:15,036 --> 00:37:17,856 I'm like, who's stopping that? 394 00:37:18,016 --> 00:37:23,596 But then anybody who did donate to those addresses were then linked back to their bank accounts. 395 00:37:23,696 --> 00:37:24,756 Bank accounts were frozen. 396 00:37:25,756 --> 00:37:34,036 You know, I do actually personally know someone who had donated and he's not a Bitcoiner, but had ended up donating in Bitcoin. 397 00:37:34,636 --> 00:37:39,376 And he had his bank account frozen for a little bit of time. 398 00:37:39,576 --> 00:37:44,136 And he's like, I didn't even know like much about the convoy. 399 00:37:44,136 --> 00:37:49,296 Like it was just I was just trying to help support, you know, what I thought was was going on. 400 00:37:49,336 --> 00:37:52,896 It wasn't like I was trying to be a terrorist, but now I'm being painted as a terrorist. 401 00:37:52,896 --> 00:38:01,596 Right. But I think talking with some people that that were actually at the protest in Ottawa, there was a lot of Bitcoin going around. 402 00:38:02,336 --> 00:38:08,676 You know, I've seen stuff and I've heard stuff of, you know, people walking up to truckers and just handing them an envelope, 403 00:38:08,676 --> 00:38:13,916 which basically told them how to accept the Bitcoin, how to download stuff, and they would 404 00:38:13,916 --> 00:38:22,036 have sats and all of that. So I do think that the atrocities that are going on in the world, 405 00:38:22,036 --> 00:38:26,856 whether that's what's happening in Iran that you mentioned, whether that's the 406 00:38:26,856 --> 00:38:32,976 trucker convoy protest, like all these things, they, you know, tough times create strong men. 407 00:38:33,536 --> 00:38:38,636 And in these times, I think is when we find out how to use Bitcoin and when to use Bitcoin. 408 00:38:38,676 --> 00:38:53,076 And it and it creates the moment of like, we need it where if I were to look at the price of Bitcoin right now, I think the price of Bitcoin is largely dictated on, you know, American policy. 409 00:38:53,076 --> 00:38:56,316 It's it's it's dictated on American markets. 410 00:38:56,316 --> 00:38:59,036 It's dictated on the pulse of America. 411 00:38:59,036 --> 00:39:01,136 Right. But Bitcoin is global. 412 00:39:01,136 --> 00:39:13,376 And I think where you will actually see adoption happen at the hyper Bitcoinized level is going to be in the countries that their dollar has collapsed, their dollar has failed. 413 00:39:13,516 --> 00:39:15,216 It's it's in emergency purposes. 414 00:39:15,776 --> 00:39:18,356 And I think we're seeing that in Iran. 415 00:39:18,756 --> 00:39:24,376 You know, we're seeing that around the world of, you know, they no longer can trust their government. 416 00:39:24,376 --> 00:39:33,076 not that they ever could, but there's an immediate need today where if I held my dollars in whatever 417 00:39:33,076 --> 00:39:38,756 dollar it is of the country, you know, I go to work at seven o'clock in the morning and I'm holding 418 00:39:38,756 --> 00:39:46,376 those dollars and then I come home at night to go buy eggs. Well, the eggs are now $12 rather than 419 00:39:46,376 --> 00:39:53,156 $6, like hyperinflation happening around the world, right? So there's an immediate need to survive 420 00:39:53,156 --> 00:39:59,056 day to day, week to week using Bitcoin, where for you and I living in Canada and the United States, 421 00:39:59,056 --> 00:40:05,876 I mean, if I buy Bitcoin today, it doesn't really affect next week. It really doesn't 422 00:40:05,876 --> 00:40:11,816 affect next month. It doesn't even affect necessarily next year. So I think adoption 423 00:40:11,816 --> 00:40:18,636 in the way that we use Bitcoin is going to happen in the places that are having the difficulty, 424 00:40:18,636 --> 00:40:25,516 and it's going to be the difficult situations in our lives in the West. 425 00:40:26,376 --> 00:40:28,776 But I think those are going to be a little bit more isolated. 426 00:40:28,916 --> 00:40:33,156 It's not going to be mass US has an issue or mass Canada has an issue. 427 00:40:33,156 --> 00:40:37,336 It's going to be a subsect of Americans, Canadians having issues. 428 00:40:37,956 --> 00:40:43,116 And for me, COVID was an example of that with the trucker convoy protests, 429 00:40:43,256 --> 00:40:45,116 churches being locked down, all of that, 430 00:40:45,116 --> 00:40:50,136 that that's going to wake people up to understand that they actually need Bitcoin today 431 00:40:50,136 --> 00:40:54,176 and bring in the adoption and the use cases for it. 432 00:40:55,416 --> 00:40:59,516 So you think to some degree we're waiting on some more dominoes to fall 433 00:40:59,516 --> 00:41:02,696 for the hyper-Bitcoinized future? 434 00:41:03,556 --> 00:41:08,476 We need, it can't just be Argentina waking up and Zimbabwe waking up. 435 00:41:09,076 --> 00:41:10,236 It's just going to require, 436 00:41:10,236 --> 00:41:18,276 in me like iran's actually a fairly influential nation in on the global scale um because they've 437 00:41:18,276 --> 00:41:26,016 got oil at the very least and uh it seems to me like a nation like that finding bitcoin could 438 00:41:26,016 --> 00:41:31,336 actually be very impactful because i'm i'm of the belief i'd love to hear your thoughts on this i'm 439 00:41:31,336 --> 00:41:37,096 of the belief that we're we're approaching a time and i don't know if it's going to be two years from 440 00:41:37,096 --> 00:41:43,376 now or 10 years from now, but we're approaching a time where the reason Bitcoin wins is obviously 441 00:41:43,376 --> 00:41:48,836 for all of the properties it possesses, but also because of those properties, there are going to be 442 00:41:48,836 --> 00:41:57,736 people producing real value in the world, oil, energy, raw materials for building anything and 443 00:41:57,736 --> 00:42:05,896 everything, who wake up to the reality of our monetary system. And they say, 444 00:42:05,896 --> 00:42:12,856 I'm done with this. You are no longer allowed to pay me in dollars or euros or yen. You have 445 00:42:12,856 --> 00:42:18,616 to pay me in Bitcoin. I'm providing value to you. You need to provide it to me. And that to me is 446 00:42:18,616 --> 00:42:24,876 like the moment that everything changes when major suppliers and shipping companies and 447 00:42:24,876 --> 00:42:30,696 when they start saying, I understand Bitcoin well enough to know that I don't want your fiat. 448 00:42:30,696 --> 00:42:37,016 But I think it could be some time before some of these dominoes fall. 449 00:42:38,516 --> 00:42:45,796 And I think it takes some pain for those sorts of players in the global economy to wake up to what we're talking about here. 450 00:42:45,996 --> 00:42:48,076 I don't know if you've thought through. 451 00:42:48,136 --> 00:42:54,376 I'd love to hear your thoughts on how you envision the hyper-Bitcoinization thesis playing out to the extent that you fully buy it. 452 00:42:54,376 --> 00:43:03,836 Yeah, I think if you asked me two years ago, I would say like the dollar, whether it was the Canadian dollar or the American dollar was close to collapse. 453 00:43:03,836 --> 00:43:22,636 I would think today I've maybe softened my thought, at least on the American dollar, where I think we are going to see the lesser, weaker currencies experience collapse and obviously money in those countries. 454 00:43:22,636 --> 00:43:25,876 So like money in Iran needs to flow somewhere. 455 00:43:26,576 --> 00:43:28,776 Where is it going to find its safe haven? 456 00:43:28,896 --> 00:43:33,756 And it's going to find its safe haven in something that, you know, people think that they can trust. 457 00:43:34,356 --> 00:43:40,856 And unfortunately, I think that people are going to look at the U.S. dollar and they're going to see something that they can trust. 458 00:43:41,756 --> 00:43:43,576 Likewise, they are going to find Bitcoin. 459 00:43:43,916 --> 00:43:44,996 They are going to find gold. 460 00:43:45,076 --> 00:43:50,876 They're going to find silver, other commodities like real estate, oil, whatever that is. 461 00:43:50,876 --> 00:43:57,476 So I think like all of those assets, as well as the U.S. dollar move higher. 462 00:43:59,256 --> 00:44:13,276 So I think that the U.S. dollar is actually going to basically suck off the life of other dying fiat currencies, which will ultimately be the demise of the U.S. dollar eventually. 463 00:44:13,276 --> 00:44:20,236 Um, so I don't particularly think that the U S dollar is going to collapse, you know, 464 00:44:20,236 --> 00:44:21,716 in the near term future. 465 00:44:21,716 --> 00:44:28,756 So that like, even in the next 10 years or a couple of years ago, I might've said, you 466 00:44:28,756 --> 00:44:31,816 know, I think in the next 10 years, the, the American dollar is gone. 467 00:44:32,436 --> 00:44:35,996 Um, I think it, it does have some life. 468 00:44:36,516 --> 00:44:42,756 Um, I think that's actually a benefit, uh, because if the U S dollar, Canadian dollar, 469 00:44:42,756 --> 00:44:47,416 whatever just imploded tomorrow. Uh, there'd be a lot of my family and friends that are left 470 00:44:47,416 --> 00:44:53,936 in the rubble. Um, so I think that there's a bit of a blessing and, uh, there's some grace 471 00:44:53,936 --> 00:45:02,236 and some mercy that's happening, uh, right now, uh, by not just complete total utter collapse. 472 00:45:02,636 --> 00:45:10,496 Um, but I mean, there is a path that I can see that that actually does happen tomorrow because 473 00:45:10,496 --> 00:45:13,536 of how bad the dollar actually is. 474 00:45:13,816 --> 00:45:16,196 So, yeah. 475 00:45:18,256 --> 00:45:19,856 I would be interested. 476 00:45:20,056 --> 00:45:22,216 I'll be very interested to see how this plays out 477 00:45:22,216 --> 00:45:24,656 because I hear everything you're saying. 478 00:45:24,656 --> 00:45:26,776 And then I see someone like Parker Lewis, 479 00:45:26,896 --> 00:45:28,596 who I had on the podcast last year. 480 00:45:29,376 --> 00:45:33,836 And his thesis, I need to go back and listen to it. 481 00:45:33,876 --> 00:45:35,436 And I've heard him talk about it before, 482 00:45:35,556 --> 00:45:38,616 but I think he thinks by the year 2030, 483 00:45:38,836 --> 00:45:40,116 the dollar is dead. 484 00:45:40,496 --> 00:45:46,556 which is not far off. I think I asked him, what do you mean by the dollar is dead? Like people 485 00:45:46,556 --> 00:45:53,196 do not transact in dollars anymore. And I don't think it was that. It was something to the effect 486 00:45:53,196 --> 00:45:59,876 of there. It will be completely evident to the entire world that there is Bitcoin and there is 487 00:45:59,876 --> 00:46:07,276 the dollar. And one of them is on the ascent and one of them is dying. And you're going to have 488 00:46:07,276 --> 00:46:13,016 like the competition where it just it becomes clear to everyone what the future of global money 489 00:46:13,016 --> 00:46:19,696 is going to be. And that's Bitcoin. It's not that everyone throws out their, you know, cash registers 490 00:46:19,696 --> 00:46:23,976 and they stop accepting dollars all at once. That's not what he means when the dollar dies. 491 00:46:25,196 --> 00:46:31,036 Do you like is that a scenario? And to me, that kind of makes sense. It's like eventually what 492 00:46:31,036 --> 00:46:35,236 you're describing. Yeah, like we're going to see, I think a lot of these fiat currencies fail. The 493 00:46:35,236 --> 00:46:51,434 is going to suck it up I think that makes sense And while that happening Bitcoin I think is going to continue to ascend And so it sort of stands to reason in my mind that Parker onto something We going to basically be left with like here are your options And by the way let me throw one more little twist into this 494 00:46:51,894 --> 00:46:56,354 I think that what the dollar looks like in 2030 could be different. I think it could be 495 00:46:56,354 --> 00:47:03,194 than we know it today. It could be Tether. And by the way, we're going to censor transactions 496 00:47:03,194 --> 00:47:07,274 and you only get you were going to do UBI with only so much per month. Like this is what I think 497 00:47:07,274 --> 00:47:13,754 stable coins are scary as hell. And so those are the two options. It's like the slavery system. 498 00:47:14,054 --> 00:47:20,694 It's the last man standing or the freedom system. And it's the only option. And that's why I think 499 00:47:20,694 --> 00:47:25,494 Bitcoin is obviously ultimately wins. Is that a timeline that you just think, first of all, 500 00:47:25,514 --> 00:47:29,474 is that a thesis that you think is interesting or compelling? And second, is that timeline just 501 00:47:29,474 --> 00:47:35,194 insane to you? No, the timeline I don't think is insane. I think there's legs to that timeline. I 502 00:47:35,194 --> 00:47:42,094 think if I look at history and I look at even what I would say is going on in the world right now is 503 00:47:42,094 --> 00:47:51,854 dying power, dying countries, dying governments, dying, you know, people that are trying to hold 504 00:47:51,854 --> 00:47:59,234 on to their power, they're going to lose it or they see the loss of it. And part of that I think 505 00:47:59,234 --> 00:48:07,114 is is bitcoin part of that i think is just you know the nature of governments dollars all that 506 00:48:07,114 --> 00:48:16,294 sort of stuff but it's the ugliness side of the the dying decrepit evil garbage that's going on 507 00:48:16,294 --> 00:48:21,674 in the world and they're going to do everything that they can to hold on to that power so where 508 00:48:21,674 --> 00:48:30,774 I think that there are legs to that thesis. I also throw into that thesis, the knowledge that 509 00:48:30,774 --> 00:48:38,454 no evil entity, no, no government, nobody who has the power right now, because ultimately Bitcoin is 510 00:48:38,454 --> 00:48:44,714 going to transfer the power to the people that hold Bitcoin, right? Nobody's going to go down 511 00:48:44,714 --> 00:48:50,774 without a fight, right? So, you know, they're going to fight tooth and nail to the death. 512 00:48:51,514 --> 00:48:58,174 And that's why I would maybe push that timeline out a little farther is that, you know, the people 513 00:48:58,174 --> 00:49:02,594 who are in control right now, aren't just going to say, okay, you know, here, here's Bitcoin, 514 00:49:02,854 --> 00:49:07,714 you know, put their, put their hands up and, and, and have a good time and, and just switch to 515 00:49:07,714 --> 00:49:16,354 Bitcoin, right? It's going to be, I think it's going to be an ugly, nasty switch. And I think 516 00:49:16,354 --> 00:49:21,274 you're sort of seeing that with Iran. I think you're seeing that with Israel, like you had 517 00:49:21,274 --> 00:49:26,034 mentioned, you know, the forever wars, the wars that are going on. I don't think that the people 518 00:49:26,034 --> 00:49:32,854 have the appetite for forever wars. I don't think that, you know, the American people, you know, 519 00:49:32,854 --> 00:49:40,754 would allow government to, you know, go ahead and have Afghanistan 2.0 or Iraq, whatever, 520 00:49:41,074 --> 00:49:48,214 you know, happen with Iran for the next 20 years. But can they get away with it for a few months 521 00:49:48,214 --> 00:49:53,354 and inject money that way and then move on to Cuba and then move on to, you know, 522 00:49:53,974 --> 00:50:01,134 pick the country of the month, right? So yeah, I just, I think that there's going to be, 523 00:50:01,134 --> 00:50:08,034 more struggle that way and an ugliness side of things as the powers lose their collapse. 524 00:50:08,714 --> 00:50:14,874 And there's going to be a resistance. And I think we've seen that, say with the trucker convoy, 525 00:50:14,954 --> 00:50:21,714 that you have the resistance of the Trudeau government. You have the resistance from a lot 526 00:50:21,714 --> 00:50:27,874 of people. And I think that's just going to come out uglier as time goes on, as Bitcoin wins. And I 527 00:50:27,874 --> 00:50:30,454 And I do think that Bitcoin has won. 528 00:50:31,174 --> 00:50:33,114 I think that Bitcoin will continue to win. 529 00:50:33,234 --> 00:50:36,314 I'm not scared that Bitcoin somehow isn't going to win. 530 00:50:36,314 --> 00:50:44,654 I think right now I'm a little bit more worried that Bitcoin doesn't reach the potential that it should and it can. 531 00:50:46,634 --> 00:50:49,154 So how would you see that happening? 532 00:50:49,554 --> 00:50:54,394 Like what would be an example of Bitcoin wins, but it doesn't really reach its full potential? 533 00:50:55,574 --> 00:50:56,874 It's a thought I share, I think. 534 00:50:56,874 --> 00:50:58,854 yeah I think you 535 00:50:58,854 --> 00:51:01,554 mentioned Tether I think stable coins 536 00:51:01,554 --> 00:51:03,714 are a way that you know the number 537 00:51:03,714 --> 00:51:05,634 because Tether basically 538 00:51:05,634 --> 00:51:07,194 if I understand Tether 539 00:51:07,194 --> 00:51:09,634 correctly you know they're buying 540 00:51:09,634 --> 00:51:11,774 bonds they're buying Bitcoin 541 00:51:11,774 --> 00:51:13,614 to back it like 542 00:51:13,614 --> 00:51:14,894 there's at least a 543 00:51:14,894 --> 00:51:17,714 backing to it it's not a fiat 544 00:51:17,714 --> 00:51:19,214 currency that you know basically 545 00:51:19,214 --> 00:51:21,714 the government is just declaring is 546 00:51:21,714 --> 00:51:23,194 and prints it that way 547 00:51:23,194 --> 00:51:24,774 but 548 00:51:24,774 --> 00:51:34,474 if we're just going to wrap up Bitcoin in fiat terms and fiat lenses and, you know, 549 00:51:34,474 --> 00:51:40,714 not actually self custody and not have, you know, our actual Bitcoin and we just 550 00:51:40,714 --> 00:51:46,194 make Bitcoin kind of what we've known the dollar to be. I think that's where, 551 00:51:46,194 --> 00:51:52,334 like, I think we're in a better world, even in a fiat wrap Bitcoin, let's say, 552 00:51:52,334 --> 00:52:01,114 Whether that's ETFs, whether that's, you know, you're just holding stuff on exchange, whether that's your loaning against your Bitcoin, whether that's you using Tether, whatever that is. 553 00:52:01,514 --> 00:52:05,274 But it's all censorship, you know, controlled. 554 00:52:05,614 --> 00:52:09,094 It's you can't actually do what you want with it. 555 00:52:09,454 --> 00:52:15,274 I think when you actually hold Bitcoin, I think that's where Bitcoin is actually going to win. 556 00:52:15,274 --> 00:52:21,954 And I think that's to me that the price of Bitcoin is probably the least interesting aspect of Bitcoin. 557 00:52:22,334 --> 00:52:32,434 I think for me, the most interesting aspect of Bitcoin is the permissionless, the self-sovereignty ability to actually be able to hold it and do what you want with the money. 558 00:52:32,554 --> 00:52:34,274 You don't have to ask the bank. 559 00:52:34,354 --> 00:52:36,894 You don't have to ask a third party to do something. 560 00:52:38,034 --> 00:52:45,394 But if we move away from that, I think that's where Bitcoin still wins, but it doesn't reach its potential. 561 00:52:45,394 --> 00:52:49,814 It's not until the masses are actually holding Bitcoin. 562 00:52:49,814 --> 00:53:03,194 And that's not to say that, you know, I think that ETFs or, you know, non self custodial entities out there are going to be gone in the next, you know, 20, 30, 40, 50 years. 563 00:53:03,854 --> 00:53:07,734 But there's no real need per se for them. 564 00:53:07,734 --> 00:53:08,534 So I think. 565 00:53:09,894 --> 00:53:16,394 Bitcoin's ultimate win is that everybody has Bitcoin in cold storage. 566 00:53:16,394 --> 00:53:23,374 everybody has you know lightning wallets or you know whatever we're using at that point 567 00:53:23,374 --> 00:53:31,874 and that's what we're using we're not trusting somebody else to interact spend save and do all 568 00:53:31,874 --> 00:53:40,474 of that yeah i i agree i there's someone who who says um you know we'll all be rich and depressed 569 00:53:40,474 --> 00:53:45,794 like if we if we have this world where bitcoin basically functions as a store of value 570 00:53:45,794 --> 00:53:51,754 and probably not even to the extent that it could be a store of value with paper Bitcoin products 571 00:53:51,754 --> 00:53:55,554 and all sorts of fiat layers sitting on top of it. 572 00:53:56,214 --> 00:54:01,434 And that's, to me, why back to our conversation about building circular economies, spending Bitcoin, 573 00:54:01,554 --> 00:54:04,214 that's part of the reason I think it's just so important we do that. 574 00:54:04,714 --> 00:54:07,534 Get Bitcoin into more people's hands, get more people learning, 575 00:54:08,334 --> 00:54:12,334 fewer people distracted by ETFs and treasury companies and all the other products 576 00:54:12,334 --> 00:54:15,494 that have really, in my view, very little to do with Bitcoin. 577 00:54:15,794 --> 00:54:18,054 And the reason that I'm here at least. 578 00:54:19,814 --> 00:54:23,974 All right, man, I'm trying to think if there's anything else we haven't covered that I was hoping to. 579 00:54:24,214 --> 00:54:26,794 Is there any topics that you'd like to touch on? 580 00:54:26,854 --> 00:54:31,054 I've got one more question for you that I end the show with for everyone. 581 00:54:31,234 --> 00:54:34,314 But anything that you'd like to talk about before we do that? 582 00:54:34,734 --> 00:54:37,214 No, you can shoot with the last question. 583 00:54:37,914 --> 00:54:38,514 All righty, man. 584 00:54:38,594 --> 00:54:39,514 So this is a fun one. 585 00:54:39,514 --> 00:54:41,654 What's an unpopular opinion that you have? 586 00:54:41,774 --> 00:54:44,474 You get bonus points if you offend some Bitcoiners with it. 587 00:54:45,794 --> 00:54:56,654 I guess to maybe go off of our last bit of the conversation is that ETFs are a net negative to the Bitcoin space. 588 00:54:56,654 --> 00:55:02,674 And I think that's because it's wrapped up in, you know, fiat jargon. 589 00:55:02,774 --> 00:55:15,274 And if I were to maybe throw something else into that is that, you know, lending against your Bitcoin is a net negative, even though I can walk down on both of them. 590 00:55:15,274 --> 00:55:24,474 the financial gains on it. So if you have Bitcoin and you need to spend money and you were to sell 591 00:55:24,474 --> 00:55:31,514 your Bitcoin, you are going to pay taxes on it, um, where you could loan against it. And there 592 00:55:31,514 --> 00:55:36,754 are no taxes. Like it's not, it's not a taxable event. So you've a saved yourself money. You're 593 00:55:36,754 --> 00:55:40,834 also someone who's against the state and you're not letting them get their cut for something that 594 00:55:40,834 --> 00:55:46,694 you've held on. Like I can see there are philosophical reasons that I can see the 595 00:55:46,694 --> 00:55:51,094 agreement for. There are, you know, financial decisions that I can see the agreement on, 596 00:55:51,254 --> 00:55:57,254 but at the end of the day, it's just, it's just the fiat system that I'm trying to, 597 00:55:57,254 --> 00:56:05,754 I'm trying to exit and to bring the fiat back into the Bitcoin world that we're all trying to 598 00:56:05,754 --> 00:56:10,614 build, um, and leave the fiat world. I don't know why we're bringing that with us. Um, 599 00:56:10,834 --> 00:56:19,654 And just to maybe go down to connect it to something else is, you know, this morning when I was reading my Bible, I'm in Deuteronomy. 600 00:56:20,334 --> 00:56:25,434 And, you know, Moses in Deuteronomy is giving his last speech. 601 00:56:25,634 --> 00:56:28,074 Essentially, it's it's you know, he's about to die. 602 00:56:28,134 --> 00:56:30,274 He's not going to enter the promised land. 603 00:56:30,274 --> 00:56:34,434 And he's kind of giving to the Israelites like the last hurrah, let's say. 604 00:56:34,774 --> 00:56:40,114 And, you know, he's talking about when you enter the promised land and you go in. 605 00:56:40,114 --> 00:57:07,414 It's not like the Israelites were just walking into milk and honey and they were just going to have a good time. There was going to be a lot of work that needed to be done. There were other people living in the nation and stuff. And part of the language that's used is you're going to have to go in and drive out the evil that is in these lands. Get rid of it. Don't allow any of it to be here. Right. And when I think of Bitcoin, not that like I do see some connections and that sort of stuff. 606 00:57:07,414 --> 00:57:11,294 And I don't want to make it seem like Bitcoin is a god or anything like that. 607 00:57:11,334 --> 00:57:12,134 It's not to be worshipped. 608 00:57:13,394 --> 00:57:21,774 But when there is evil, when there is a disease, you don't want that disease to get into the thing that is good. 609 00:57:22,534 --> 00:57:31,034 So I personally, and I think you would agree, that fiat and that mindset and that way of life is a disease. 610 00:57:31,974 --> 00:57:34,334 It's evil and something that's not good. 611 00:57:34,454 --> 00:57:35,874 And that's what we're trying to opt out of. 612 00:57:35,874 --> 00:57:57,594 So don't be bringing that into Bitcoin. We need Bitcoin to be Bitcoin and Bitcoin only that way and not be looking at it through and bringing in those the things that we liked. Right. Because, I mean, if I if I read, you know, the first few books of the Bible, it's you know, you have the Israelites that have been in Egypt who have been slaves. 613 00:57:57,594 --> 00:58:01,314 they all want to leave and then they leave and then they're out in the desert and they're 614 00:58:01,314 --> 00:58:05,514 wandering and they're saying to Moses they're like why did you why did you take us out of Egypt 615 00:58:05,514 --> 00:58:12,874 like let's go back to Egypt and be slaves right there is a you know part of our human nature I 616 00:58:12,874 --> 00:58:21,174 guess is just to go back to mindset still because in in many ways it was easy right they had somebody 617 00:58:21,174 --> 00:58:24,554 telling them what to do they didn't have to think for themselves even though they were getting whipped 618 00:58:24,554 --> 00:58:29,374 Even though they were getting thrown down, they weren't, you know, doing anything that they wanted to do. 619 00:58:29,894 --> 00:58:31,774 You know, in many ways, they felt like it was easier. 620 00:58:31,854 --> 00:58:33,674 Like, at least we had food to eat. 621 00:58:33,734 --> 00:58:34,674 At least there was water. 622 00:58:34,754 --> 00:58:35,454 Where's the water? 623 00:58:35,954 --> 00:58:36,234 Right. 624 00:58:37,034 --> 00:58:41,194 And spoiler alert, like Moses just hit a rock and water came out because God is great. 625 00:58:41,194 --> 00:58:49,614 But yeah, it's it's just something that, you know, again, I think there's a lot of sense to ETFs. 626 00:58:49,614 --> 00:58:57,234 I think there is a lot of, you know, you can make good propositions to ETFs and, you know, 627 00:58:57,294 --> 00:58:58,354 loaning against your Bitcoin. 628 00:58:58,354 --> 00:59:04,354 I just think that it's just going back down the fiat garbage hole of what the dollar is 629 00:59:04,354 --> 00:59:04,714 today. 630 00:59:04,894 --> 00:59:10,754 And if we wrap Bitcoin in that, that's where I think, you know, we don't hit Bitcoin's 631 00:59:10,754 --> 00:59:11,214 potential. 632 00:59:11,754 --> 00:59:18,314 And I think one of the things with fiat is that you're, you're taking, you're trying 633 00:59:18,314 --> 00:59:25,394 to bring the future to today, right? And under a Bitcoin standard, like if you don't have the means 634 00:59:25,394 --> 00:59:31,034 to buy a car, you're not going to buy the car. And I think that that's okay. I think think when 635 00:59:31,034 --> 00:59:37,714 you can, and, um, you know, it's, it's not to covet the thing that you don't have. Uh, so 636 00:59:37,714 --> 00:59:43,454 it's just a difference in shift. And that doesn't mean that life is necessarily easier in that way, 637 00:59:43,454 --> 00:59:50,174 but you're going to have what you need. You're going to have what you can. And I think that 638 00:59:50,174 --> 00:59:56,834 that's just a better, better way of life. So just get rid of ETFs and, you know, 639 00:59:57,114 --> 01:00:01,554 loaning against Bitcoin and all that sort of stuff. I think they're going to end up being 640 01:00:01,554 --> 01:00:08,034 a net negative. And if we keep going down those, those avenues is where Bitcoin's not going to hit 641 01:00:08,034 --> 01:00:13,434 its potential. Well, that's an unpopular opinion, but you have no disagreement here, my friend. 642 01:00:13,454 --> 01:00:15,714 I couldn't agree more. 643 01:00:16,074 --> 01:00:17,934 So Joel, thanks so much for the time, man. 644 01:00:17,994 --> 01:00:19,934 Why don't you tell people where they can find you, follow you, 645 01:00:19,994 --> 01:00:21,594 anything else you want to share before we hop off? 646 01:00:21,974 --> 01:00:23,394 Yeah, you reach out. 647 01:00:23,554 --> 01:00:25,974 I'm on X, Joel Holtelman. 648 01:00:26,354 --> 01:00:28,574 I think it'll be up here on the screen. 649 01:00:30,054 --> 01:00:32,674 Yeah, shoot me a DM, reach out, interact with me. 650 01:00:33,514 --> 01:00:34,634 I love to talk Bitcoin. 651 01:00:34,634 --> 01:00:37,534 If you agree with something that I said, let's talk about that. 652 01:00:37,594 --> 01:00:40,814 If you don't agree with something that I said, I'm all ears. 653 01:00:40,994 --> 01:00:42,354 I'm open to criticism. 654 01:00:42,354 --> 01:00:50,074 uh i know that i'm a retired i'm an idiot in in many ways so um i i'm not right so um and i i've 655 01:00:50,074 --> 01:00:57,514 been proving that every day of my life so um yeah awesome man well hey i think you got some good 656 01:00:57,514 --> 01:01:02,954 takes so really appreciate you being here let's stay in touch are you gonna be in vegas um i had 657 01:01:02,954 --> 01:01:10,554 thought of it we're gonna have our baby in june so before we knew that we were pregnant we kind of 658 01:01:10,554 --> 01:01:13,794 we're thinking about maybe doing Vegas this year, but no, 659 01:01:13,834 --> 01:01:15,854 I don't think those are in the cards just being so, 660 01:01:16,094 --> 01:01:19,314 so close to when babies do. So I hear you, man. All right, brother. 661 01:01:19,414 --> 01:01:22,014 We'll take care. We'll talk soon. All right. Thanks for having me. 662 01:01:22,554 --> 01:01:24,754 Cheers. And that's a wrap again. 663 01:01:24,854 --> 01:01:28,214 Hope you enjoyed my conversation with Joel. Go give him a follow online. 664 01:01:28,214 --> 01:01:30,134 Just an awesome guy. And of course, 665 01:01:30,134 --> 01:01:33,854 if you need help taking your Bitcoin into proper 100% self custody, 666 01:01:34,014 --> 01:01:38,834 go to the Bitcoin way.com slash podcast can schedule a free 30 minute consult 667 01:01:38,834 --> 01:01:43,734 with a member of our team. We can also help you with a plan B residency in tropical Panama. We've 668 01:01:43,734 --> 01:01:49,394 got online privacy options and privacy phone setups we can walk you through. Again, it's 669 01:01:49,394 --> 01:01:54,894 thebitcoinway.com slash podcast. Do me a huge favor. If you're enjoying the show, give us a like, 670 01:01:54,994 --> 01:01:58,614 subscribe, comment, share it with a friend. We would love for you to support us and help feed 671 01:01:58,614 --> 01:02:04,074 the algorithm to get the message of Bitcoin out to the masses. And until next time, stay safe, 672 01:02:04,074 --> 01:02:07,754 stay sovereign, and remember the yield on Bitcoin is freedom. 673 01:02:08,834 --> 01:02:38,814 Thank you.