I went from a high school dropout to building a seven-figure online company within a couple of
months with just talking to AI for four, six, eight, ten hours a day. Like, it was absolutely
relentless. You've been the person who I've been following on this journey who is most excited,
optimistic. Everything I've seen from you is like, guys, this will change your life. Learn to do it,
but like, put in the time. It's like Bitcoin. You're not going to get it straight away. It's
asymmetric bet, right? Like even if you're wrong, like your time wasted is not as near as much as
the opportunity cost of not doing it if the AI maxis and the Bitcoin maxis are right.
The money and everything's broken and it's getting worse and worse and worse and we've got
like three or four hundred thousand Australians now homeless because the government's just
obliterating the money. It's absolutely worthless.
Hey, everyone. Michael here with the Bitcoin Way podcast. Thank you for tuning in. Today on the
show, I have Sean Clark, a good friend and partner of the Bitcoin Way. We dug deep into AI. He has
been on quite a journey. Fascinating stuff. I mean, these tools are incredibly powerful. If you
are behind and you've just been chatting with ChatGPT or whatever your little LLM friend is,
this is way bigger than that. I'm going to be digging deep on this very soon. You will get a
lot out of this conversation. And I hope you start going down this rabbit hole as well.
You will love this conversation. Everyone, like I said in the intro, I've got Sean here with me.
Sean, welcome to the Bitcoin Way podcast. Michael Jordan, always a pleasure. How are you, mate?
Good, my friend. It's been a long time coming. I don't know why I didn't reach out to you long,
long ago, but I knew I had you on my list and I'm glad we get to talk. I think I found you at
like peak Sean time because it's always been Bitcoin. And then lately I've seen your feed
more and more interesting stuff on AI. I want to spend a lot of time on that because you're the
person I'm paying most attention to who's kind of gone down this rabbit hole. I want to start,
though, with we've got bombs dropping and missiles flying and the world is just, I mean,
in absolute chaos. What's your take on, like, as someone abroad, probably a bit removed,
I assume Australia is not heavily involved in any of these interventions. Like, what's your take on
on what you're seeing um i i guess first off people killing each other like i don't know if
it's old men in a room or whatever and they want to move the chess pieces around it just seems so
absurd that we're sending our youngest people to kill other states youngest people really when the
issue is not i have a problem with those people or those people have a problem with us it's the
the people right at the the very top um but as for australia and our intervention fuel's gone up
a little bit about 50 cents a liter is filling up a couple of jerry cans and the vehicles and stuff
yesterday um you know we haven't got fuel supply uh fuel reserves strategically for that so i guess
that's the impact here um obviously we are fairly far removed the the politicians and stuff are
trying to jump in but i guess my thoughts i just don't want to see people dying michael so can we
just not get in a room and talk peacefully or whatever i guess that's um you know trying to
live in a perfect world but that's what i would prefer um as for what's going on personally i've
been very removed head down focused with ai and um bitcoin i did see those videos the missiles
flying and things like that and it looks like the dictator supposedly from the little that I've
removed has been taken out but then what happens? Is there a power vacuum? Is there civil war?
There's never a good situation for anyone. I don't know if it was better before or it's going to be
better now or there's going to be this long process but from all the wars and I just finished
reading a book called chicken hawk about a helicopter pilot and in vietnam and they went
there and halfway through they started to question the vietcong and they started to realize that the
vietcong were just the villagers that they're fighting and they're shooting and they're killing
And, you know, there's a lot of people get caught up in the mix.
And I guess that's wanting to live in a perfect world.
If people are willing to go and fight for their country, that's one thing.
But the casualties and innocent victims and stuff, it's heartbreaking.
Yeah, I completely agree.
And it's funny, five years ago, I would have just laughed at you and called you a hippie.
uh like i think it's taken this i think as i've grown to appreciate what it is that funds wars
that incentivize incentivizes wars i have a much softer spot for what's really happening and at the
end of the day it's a bunch of young people going to die for something that's not particularly useful
and um they spin all kind of all kinds of narratives around it and it just i mean those
just roll right off my back. I just don't buy a single word of anyone, any side of the political
aisle at the top explaining why we have to go bomb another country. I think all of the justifications
are total bullshit. So that's my take. Interesting though, Bitcoin is not ripping with this. I know
a lot of people, it's the hedge, and it feels like we're kind of close to that point where
enough people understand that that you would think we'd see Bitcoin doing something in a world of
uncertainty, but seems like a lot of people still view it as speculative. What's your thought?
Obviously, I feel like I've been talking a lot more price action just because people are so baffled
than I usually care to talk about, but I'd love to hear what you think is going on.
I think ever since we've come off the all-time high from 127 down to 61, I think was the recent
low. What an opportunity that it's been for anyone. If you're worried about price, just
buy, stack and chill, get as much as you possibly can into self-custody. Get the Bitcoin way to help
you protect it if you don't know how. But in regards to it not ripping, I woke up and I haven't
checked the price. I don't know if I've seen the price in two, three weeks maybe. But I went on X
and I saw Peter Schiff just having a meltdown over it.
And it was like, Bitcoin's at 71,000.
You need to sell everything now.
It's not going to go any higher.
And he was like, Bitcoin's at 73,000.
You need to sell it now.
It's not going to go any higher.
So I was like, I opened up the app
and I've just opened it up here again now.
And it's up 5.7% in the past 24 hours.
So I don't know, maybe it is ripping on this news
and people are getting it.
But I guess for everyone that truly understands it, if the whole world understood it on this news, we'd be at a million or higher straight away.
So, yes, it's starting to move and it's starting to go back up there.
Is it completely undervalued and is the price under $100,000 USD?
Insane, very much so.
It's an amazing opportunity.
but very much it should be higher because of what's going on.
Why isn't it?
I think there's a lot of misinformation.
People are still, they just don't understand.
Like Bitcoin takes at least 100 hours to be able to get a basic knowledge.
Everyone's busy.
People can speed read that by reading the big print by Lawrence Lippard,
but it still takes work.
and as fiat inflates more and more and people have to work two, three jobs
to be able to stay in the same place or there are wars going on.
People are focused elsewhere, just trying to keep up
or trying to just have a normal pace of living.
And they don't feel like they need to study Bitcoin
because when they turn on the news, oh, Bitcoin's this magic internet money,
it's a Ponzi scheme or whatever it is,
It's used for all the nefarious things that Jamie Dimon says.
None of that's true, but that's the information they're getting
and they're struggling and they don't have the times.
So they just don't put in the proof of work.
And I think that's probably more so why we're not in a million dollars today
or 10 million or whatever the fiat number is that people want to do.
I think it's just Bitcoin takes people effort and it's not going to get there.
And I think we're just still early.
Bitcoin is still very new and it's very different.
We've never had a money that's also a technology before, at least in recorded human history.
Yeah, I agree.
Like truly the proof of work meme is kind of what it comes down to.
So you have to be willing to, because so many people in my life understand that Bitcoin is a thing that I have a high conviction in and spend all my day thinking about and talking about and they haven't picked up a book.
That's crazy.
It's really just a matter of expending a little bit of energy to zoom in on what it is.
Okay, so we'll probably get back to Bitcoin.
I want to get to AI.
So first of all, I want you to tell a story.
before i'm going to ask you a little bit about like the mechanics of your setup because i want
like this is a very self-serving podcast i'll be honest however you uh tweeted about uh maybe a
couple weeks ago you saved like forty five hundred dollars it's gone up a lot since then with
software it's about 10 grand now worth in software so what what happened what did you save money on
how did you do it? Yeah. So obviously, AI is an amazing deflationary technology for a little bit
of context. So just to be able to set the frame, Jack Dorsey, the founder of Twitter, the creator
of Twitter originally, is now CEO and founder of Square. He just laid off 40% of his workforce,
4,000 highly technical coders, computer knowledge workers, and replace them with AI.
So that's like on a grand scale, and that's happening more and more and more.
In my own life, what I've done is, in Christmas holidays, I kept seeing this stuff about OpenClaw,
this AI agent that ran on its own computer and can control its own computer.
And I was on holiday, and I actually wanted to stop and have a break.
and it was amazing. I hadn't had a proper, mentally, I hadn't been on holidays for like
five years. So I was like, I'm not going to get this while I'm on holiday because otherwise I'm
just going to go down the rabbit hole. But as soon as I got back to the company and back into it,
I went out and bought a Mac mini, downloaded and installed OpenClaw on it, set it up.
Now, you don't necessarily need a Mac mini. I just wanted to give it a sandbox space. And I
I think this is the most important for anyone playing around with AI and OpenClaw.
It's incredibly powerful technology.
It can take full control of your computer, access everything.
So what that means is give it its own device.
Don't put it on anything that touches Bitcoin.
If you do anything, say on your personal computer, Bitcoin related, don't also install OpenClaw or any AI tool that can take control
and look through your folders and everything like that.
I think just caution it.
But anyway, got that, installed it, set it up,
and then started like really feeding it a lot of information
on who I am, what I do.
So I gave it 90 of my YouTube transcripts, 30 gig worth of X data,
a whole lot of company emails and all our company content
of what we're doing with our online training business.
and then I got to a point where I needed to fill a contract
and with the course at the moment we hosted on our WordPress website
and our own LMS, the learning management system,
the organizations wanted to embed the course
onto their own learning management system.
It just needs to be put into a certain file structure,
a SCORM file, pretty easy to be able to do,
But that software to be able to convert how our course was into that SCORM was about $2,999.
So that was the first $3,000 saving straight away.
I got my OpenClaw agent to be able to code and build an app for myself that could do that.
So that's the first subscription or software package that I didn't need.
The second thing is we need licensing around it.
So user limits for this particular organization, just under 1,000 people for 12-month access.
To be able to do that and actually make it happen was about another $1,500 worth of software for that functionality.
A couple of prompts and then I built that on top of it and to the course builder, the packager, et cetera.
and then the other savings coming from it.
So I built all that.
It did it.
I tested it.
It was incredible.
And then I really wanted to increase the quality of the output
of how the SCORM looks and what it can do
and the functions and features.
So I just started working with it and Googling the best features
that you can use within SCORM files and packages
for online courses and stuff and then just recreated those
and built those into the app,
which would have been about another $6,000 of either plugins
or to be able to pay for somebody to be able to code and stuff.
And obviously, I've got no coding experience or anything like that.
But intrinsically, I knew exactly what I needed to achieve
and how to achieve it.
And I'd been looking at all the other products and software
that was out there in the market.
And I just got the AI to recreate and refine it, for example.
and so that's just like one small thing it's built like little apps instead of a task taking
five minutes you open it you double click and it fires off that automation um for for those as well
but like as for cost savings someone else with an open claw like you're not going to get your ai to
go out and build a course package or whatever it's you you don't need that within your organization
But the point of it is I did and I would have had to have paid for it regardless.
I probably wouldn't have paid for all those extra features like the $5,000, $6,000 on top, but I would have paid for the $4,500.
I had to have that capability.
I'd just build it and I can make as many courses as I want so I don't need to worry about paying more in higher tiers.
If you have more people, like over 1,000 people going through the course and they charge you more per person.
Etc So they really capture it And I guess the point is we can all create whatever it is we need specific to our company our business our workflows whatever it is personalized to us and then we can
keep improving on it and it can build it with our context knowing who we are what we do and how we
need to be able to use it wild so it's like a magic box man it's like a little genie no i i
believe you man so what is the what percentage of this work is done locally versus are you have a
bunch of api calls going out are you paying a bunch of money to get this done in order to access other
models like i i'm not fully aware of like a mechanic like the setup yeah 100 so just recently
this week so aim is so so so quick at the moment but just this week um quen 3.5 has come out with a
local model that runs on the mac mini it's about as powerful as what chat gpt 4.0 was like running
locally free forever it's yours it's amazing to be able to do that build out and everything like
that that's not powerful enough to be able to use so it is using api and calls i've got a couple
chat gpt anthropic for a little bit it's been issues with the open claw doing it they don't
really like it so that's not really mainly in use and then kimmy which is a chinese model
it's super capable it's super cheap the thing about it being as chinese is you don't know where
your information your data is going so being very selective with when that agent that's connected
to Kimmy what he's processing is he's just running the task and then pushing things into the background
and also being aware that some things can run locally they are very slow and they sort of need
to happen overnight and you just come back to something ready instead of waiting on it but
having like gpt 4.0 level local now is absolutely incredible if we had this last year we're like
oh my god the the future's here now that we've got gpt 5.3 or whatever we're like oh that's a
little bit slow you know like we get used to it if your computer browser doesn't load the page
instantly and the video doesn't come or whatever you're like what's wrong with this thing um but
when we're kids downloading from LimeWire or whatever like that.
It could take hours to download a MP3, for example.
But that's the setup at the moment.
There's Quinn running locally and the main models are running Kimi
and OpenAI with the codex for the coding and for the app building.
So can you just, like through Telegram, ping your bot?
You named it Lindy, is that right?
I called him Charles Lindbergh after the great aviator.
And Charles's nickname was Lindy, yes.
Okay, so could you ping Lindy right now and say, go build me a website?
Yes.
And just describe here.
And then so it's something like that.
Like you want to build like a quick informational marketing website or something.
Is that the kind of thing that's low enough processing requirements?
It can do that locally?
does it like does it can you go purchase a domain name on your behalf it could if you gave it a
credit card for sure or they um organize say again have you given it access to any sort of financial
no not yet process no no yeah at the moment is very much sandboxed and it's just building things
in parallel on its own thing you know when i need to get the course i'll bring it in there
or marketing material.
One thing which is pretty incredible, Michael,
is gave it a whole lot of like off your website,
all information about the course, everything that's happening,
and said, hey, like I want a 45-second animation.
Can you make one?
And then it just like pulls this thing up on the computer.
I'd need to look at the name of the program.
And it just makes this like incredible graphic animation
that goes through them like oh can you add sound to it it's like i don't have any access to sound
go here or here so i just downloaded the the sound file it added that in and then exported it all
for me and at the start of it there's on two two of the slides out of seven of the slides and the
slides were all animated it um some of the wording wasn't quite right or it was like bunched up and
things like that and you just speak into your phone just saying on slide one can you create a
little bit of separation between the two words and then on slide five can you like remove that
last line and do this and it's like yep done and then i'll export it again you've got like another
version um so that's like one thing that's just absolutely incredible you just talk to it and it
can do whatever it can make powerpoints and images and graphics as for websites it's built us
a whole dashboard website everything like that just from a couple of prompts and then
what it spits you out first off is like absolutely amazing and like a minute two minutes or whatever
it builds and you're like holy cow it's something that would take me 10 20 hours to be able to get
to like that that level of looking nice and functionality and there'll be like a couple of
little quirks and stuff that you want to change, you'll be able to refine or things won't work and
they won't lead you to the next page where you need to be. And you just talk to it like a human
and be like, hey, can you fix this? It's not working. I'd like that button to be a little
bit brighter or can you bring the opacity? Whatever it is, whatever you can imagine,
you just talk to it and I'll figure it out and I'll change it. And then another two minutes
later, it's done. It's live. So you spend four minutes instead of like 20 hours doing
doing whatever it is. So not a lot of babysitting. So you could, for example,
say, hey, let's say you wanted to give it access to a debit card. So you could just,
you auto transfer a hundred bucks a month or a Bitcoin wallet. You auto transfer a number of
sats per month or whatever. You could tell it, hey, you have a $100 monthly budget and you can,
you know you can subscribe to tools api calls whatever you need to do to get the tasks done
and then just ping me if you need an extra 50 or whatever and it can facilitate it can do that it
can do the account creation it can do download any tools it needs it can figure out those tools
because obviously it has access to all of the support pages youtube video whatever it needs
to do to figure out how to do this stuff it's if it's not already baked in and it and it's then
learning those skills like it's refining its ability to serve you in those capacities is that
do i have that right yeah yeah bang on and i guess specifically to um agents like open claw
is to backtrack a little bit yes and put a pin in that with the ai agents like chat gpt for example
you like i've used it very intensively um but it like forget context over time and start to just
not remember previous conversations that you've had with it by giving open claw its own mac mini
its own hard drive space it saves all these different files and you can give it a soul so
like its personality which is lindy the great aviator and to be able to help in specific areas
of the business.
But then you can give it different skills in those folders.
So one of those skills could be here's like your credit card number
to be able to access it.
It's got this much.
When it runs out, ping me, let me know.
But the skill, one of its skills is that it has access
to that credit card.
One of the other skills is that when you ask it to do something,
it'll go out and it'll choose whatever apis that it needs to do and then it'll use the skill of
paying with that credit card to be able to do it so you're like building out and you're training it
so it's like a i guess the best way to explain it is like a junior employee they've they've got a
brain they can think they've passed school you know university or whatever so they're clever enough
but they've never worked in your organization before they don't know your workflows your work
process whatever is specific to you so you need to train them you need to give them the standard
operating procedures and then build out those workflows and those automations and at the start
it's not plug and play and it's not easy and there's still updates and I was helping somebody
set up OpenClaw just yesterday and because of these new updates it wasn't taking control over
this whole computer the computer wasn't giving it any access at all so i was like a dumb fucking
brick at the moment you know and that took us two hours and we couldn't quite get it
so it's not like you can just go out buy mac mini download it and then be like hey i'm gonna make
ten thousand dollars in software or i'm gonna give it a thousand dollars and it's gonna go
out and trade it into a million dollars and people are doing these things with these ais and i i did
it with the software and different workflows and things like that other people have told their
open claw agent like here's a thousand dollars if like once you lose it you're dead so like make
money and then it'll go out and make money people are getting their ai to um scrape websites and
this is this is the cynicist side of things but it's just to give a good example scrape websites
and then send out like 50,000 fraudulent invoices to companies
and just hoping that they won't look, accounts payable won't look,
and they'll just pay it.
And they reckon about 1% to 2% of companies will just pay it.
And so they've made like a million dollars or whatever from doing that.
But the point is like it can be powerful and it can do whatever it is
and it can make money in positive ways, negative ways.
it can save you money i think more importantly it's about learning the tools and saving yourself
time and tinkering because overall this is the worst it's ever going to be it's only going to
get better and better and better and better and better and to be able to have like quen running
locally which was as powerful as gpt 4.0 like on a a thousand dollars australian a 600 machine
that's that's pretty mind-blowing but all of these things are not going to just you're not going to
download OpenClaw and then it's just going to do it.
You have to build it into it and you have to teach and you have to train
and then you need to stack those skills up.
Okay.
What are your favorite sort of plugins that you've identified?
Like what's been most useful for you personally that, you know,
a local LLM isn't going to get you?
Is it like image generation that maybe you need like more powerful tools?
Is it, you know, video?
like what in particular has been helpful for you?
Obviously, building out that software package is the most editing documents
and putting like the initial draft together in various company documents and stuff.
It sounds very, very boring, but to be able to go through and to be able to format it
and our language, our style, our definitions in a very like nuanced focus way
and then to be able to format it.
so it looks like a really nice like pdf type document and then i just need to go through and
just change a couple of things so instead of that job i don't know taking four hours maybe
or like even for um my assistant to spend two or three hours on it then for me to spend another
two or three hours on it at the initial drafts done in a minute two minutes or whatever and then
i can go through in like 15 20 minutes for that sort of final edit polish or whatever and then
it's good to go because it it's got all the past documents everything like that so it knows the
style and then it'll lay it out how we want it it sounds boring or not revolutionary um
but it's that's pretty powerful yeah imagine over the course of a week the like those little time
saving like i'm thinking right now you know every day we've got six segments going out on our youtube
channel every week and i'm manually typing descriptions that you know like that that kind
of stuff based on transcript summaries and that so here's one for you yeah drop the my youtube video
into a dropbox file it'll go in there it gets sorry into a google drive folder which it's got
So I gave it its own Gmail account.
So it's got its own email, which obviously comes with like that Google suite of Drive, not Dropbox, Google Drive.
So I dropped my video into that and then it'll go through and get the subagent to pull out the transcripts and then it'll go through the transcripts and everything like that.
It'll create the initial title, the description, the tags that need to do it,
and then also like a draft post to be able to share on top of that.
The next stage of building this out is to get it to go through
and then cut out six shorts out of each video as well,
and then to automate the distribution onto all the platforms,
YouTube, Fountain, X, TikTok, Instagram for the shorts as well.
It's just the time that it takes to be able to set it up.
You want to put a weekend aside, I guess, to get like a workflow or not even a weekend, a couple of hours on a Saturday to be able to put that into a place.
So does Lindy for you, it sounds like it has access to the administrative functions of your YouTube channel.
At the moment, it's not posting on there.
it's just giving me that information in a document i'll edit it and then i'll copy and
paste it over okay one thing with this and then getting better and better with their security and
it's coming out and it's almost industry grade level of security but i'm still very specific
to sandbox it it's its own email it's not connected to my email when i've got podcasts
and stuff, I will forward the invite to the OpenClaw email so that it knows
and they'll ping me to say, hey, Sean, you've got a video with Michael Jordan
at 9.30, your time that's coming up in 5, 10 minutes.
So I will do that.
I guess one of the other things when it comes to AI,
and I've reiterated a couple of times, it's not plug and play,
but this is the worst that it's ever going to be and for me my open claw has been
up the whole time or with very little um downtime and i haven't had any issues
i haven done the very latest update and someone had done the very latest update and then uninstall and get OpenClaw to start working it hasn gone as smoothly this time
So there's a little bit of troubleshooting and stuff to be able to play around with it.
So I guess my message is for everyone with AI and these tools is have patience with it,
learn learn to do it but like put in the time it's like bitcoin you're not going to get it
straight away and it's not going to create you a million dollar business straight away
but ai will make you a million dollar business if you put the work in you use it like source
trust me bro it happened it's incredible but it's not i think the hardest thing michael is we see
all these videos and stuff and I'll create the software from a couple of prompts and it works
just like that and the websites and the documents and everything that I need it it's just happening
but that came from using AI every day since like 2022 and then the first week that I got open claw
is I had five hours sleep in three days for example and I don't encourage everyone for that
but it's just there's no get rich quick scheme in the world or whatever.
Things aren't just going to be handed to you and here's a magic box,
you plug in the Mac, you're going to make all this money,
it's going to save you all this time or whatever.
No, at the start, it's going to cost you time, it's going to cost you energy,
it's going to cost you your awareness late nights
and you have to put in the proof of work.
But then once you do that, it compounds and then it's exponential
And then it's very easy just to be able to say, hey, I need a document related to this.
Now you get the document back, please email it to me.
Cool.
Can you make an animation to be able to go along with this?
We want to put that out on LinkedIn or can you make a LinkedIn carousel, for example?
And it can do all that.
It can email and you just copy and paste and put it over.
but I guess the message is for people that already have a business where you've got systems
or you've got processes in place that just waste a lot of time you can start to automate those out
instead of just having the human doing all the computer input it's like AI human check AI goes
human verified accepted great and then you move on to the next task this is amazing I can't wait
to get started. I'm waiting for my Mac mini to come. So one question for you, what is, I've heard,
you've been the person who I've been following on this journey, who is most excited, optimistic,
everything I've seen from you is like, guys, this is, this will change your life and the way that
you work and all of these things. And then I've heard some people who are like, it's going to cost
you thousands of dollars, you know, in API calls. It's like the cost is not going to be worth it,
Or maybe it would be worth it, but I don't have $5,000 or $10,000 to spend.
Is that just specific to what you want to do?
Obviously, the more processing intensive, I think the more expensive it's going to be.
But for the average person who's just doing the kind of tasks you're describing here,
it sounds to me like you're not spending thousands of dollars a month to operate this.
Is that fair?
No, it's cheap as chips.
And where the cost comes down to is what, like, LLM are you using?
And the best LLM to be able to use was Anthropic.
It was Claude and people were connecting their $200 a month subscriptions
through OAuth authentication, so just their subscription to it.
Now, Anthropic clamped down on that and was like, absolutely not.
You're not doing that.
you need to use that API call.
And API calls can get very expensive to be able to do it.
So that's where people were spending a hell of a lot of money.
And because it's remembering everything
and it's putting a lot of context into each window
with all its memories specific to you or that conversation,
it's costing you a lot of tokens.
Obviously, OpenAI has paid for PETA.
I don't know exactly what the deal was.
OpenClaw, so Peter's the founder of OpenClaw.
OpenClaw's stayed open source and OpenAI hasn't bought it,
but they're very much supporting it.
So where I'm getting is with OpenAI, which is like the chat GPT ecosystem,
you can use your subscription, like your pro subscription,
which is what, like $49 a month or something like that.
I don't know.
I've got two pro subscriptions, but we just connected one of those with it.
And that's, you know, for the coding, the building with GPD Codex,
it uses that and it's not costing any more.
If you were to connect it to the API instead of a subscription,
yes, it would cost you a little bit more, not as much as Anthropic
for just the thinking and the communicating and for the areas
where you're not worried about your information going to China.
kimmy k 2.5 is like 30 or 29 or something like that so those two subscriptions was 80 australian
like even if it's 100 bucks us for for what it can build like who cares yeah yeah yes you'll be
able to do it see and then if you need more sorry just quickly just answer the rest of it if you
need more capacity or whatever and you're like building out the craziest things and you need
philanthropic API.
Just get it to build something initially with those cheaper subscriptions that gives you
enough value or enough time back to be able to pay for the higher API calls.
Don't just like throw everything all at once, like build it and stack it up slowly.
Like any endeavor wants to be cashflow positive as soon as possible.
Otherwise, you can't keep doing what you're doing if you've got something that provides
value there's no point like going broke before you even start gosh yeah i mean that makes sense
and i assume too you can automate this to learn sort of the workflow of hey build cheaply you know
inexpensively quickly and then like be thoughtful so to speak artificially thoughtful as to when we
go to more like of a production level environment, we're willing to pay more. It's going to kind of
figure that out, build you like a rougher maybe product. And then, and then you, you sort of,
you sort of work your way to the more expensive models. If you even need to get there, I bet for
most people, most of the time they get with these subscriptions, you know, that, you know, they,
they pay a hundred bucks a month for a couple of subscriptions in total, and it'll do what they
needed to do is that is that probably absolutely like even just open ai like just that one
subscription for 99 of people 95 of people would be fine or kimmy if you don't worry about your
information or your selective with when you're interacting with that agent going to kimmy if
you're not worried about it like send it there but i think even more to your point apple's just
announced their m5 macbook and stuff they're going to come out with a m5 mac mini um you know later
this year the capacity of the llms locally that it'll be able to run will be absolutely insane
but two weeks ago i had another um local llm the name will come to me in a sec and it was like
Like, it was like when I started using ChatGPT in 2022.
Like, it was there, but it was, like, so slow with it.
And you're like, this is just absolutely useless.
But then two days ago when QAN 3.5 came out, backing up a little bit.
So two weeks ago when that first AI local, I installed it and I was like, oh, that's cool.
Like, it works, but it's super slow and it's going to drive me crazy.
But I just, I was saying to people, just all we need to do is wait four to six weeks and there'll be something like better and we'll have a new step change.
Two weeks later, we're going to like GPT 4.0 level straight away locally.
Like, let alone the next four to six weeks, what's going to happen in the next two weeks?
You know, like every single day, these models are getting smaller, more powerful.
and then as the hardware comes out and Apple gets that M5 chip onto the market,
it's going to be insane.
I think in the next, I don't even think it's going to be 12 months, Michael,
but most people will be able to get away with running everything locally,
maybe even on like a Mac mini level.
If it's not a Mac mini level, go out and buy an Apple studio,
like fully, fully spec'd out at the moment, like everything,
the biggest hard drives everything in australia it's like 27 000 so that's maybe 18 20 000 us
people like i'm not spending 20 000 on a computer if that can computer can replace
just just one staff member but what happens if it replaces four or five staff members or you've got
say five staff members and they're using this local ai that costs you 20 000 but now they're five
times more productive, 10 times more productive.
Like the cost of that is like it's non-existent to a business owner
or it should be and it should be something that they should budget for
and start to be able to plan for.
And I guess the point with OpenClaw and instance on the Mac Mini now is,
yes, it works, it's a little bit finicky and you need to tinker with it.
But you want to learn all these things and you want to learn
just how to use it so that when we get to the level where you can run everything locally as
powerful as like the best models that we have today you want to be prepared for that because
they're also not going to be plug and play and you want them to be specific to to your situation
it's pretty exciting so you're saying you would rather be in a place where you've been training
you've been training Lindy on a Mac Mini
and as the technology advances
it will be something that you can
that's sufficiently compact that you can put it onto
like a Mac Studio. But you're basically taking all of its
learning that's done with you onto a more powerful machine in the future
with better LLMs that can run more localized
and it's you're not starting from scratch when these new machines come out like you you have
you know years of data that you've been feeding it and you're able to take advantage of the new
technology much more quickly that's right so for to relate this not to ai but say with my
admin assistant originally when she first came on i'd show her a task on the computer and we'd get
on Zoom and we'd record it. So I'd show her the task, exactly how to do it. She'd watch the video
and she'd download the transcript and then she'd write an SOP, a standard operating procedure
on how to do every single task. She would send me that SOP, I'd check it, we'd get on another call
and then I'd read it out to her and then she'd follow it step by step by step by step, gets the
end. If the result was great, great. That's the SOP, that's the workflow, that's the structure,
that we're going to follow, do this every single time.
If I was reading it out one by one, she was following
and she didn't get the answer, then all we needed to do
was change that SOP.
For each SOP, you're probably putting in like four to six hours
for that.
And that's like a lot of time where maybe that task originally
would take half an hour, 40 minutes, an hour or whatever.
So it's taking 600% longer originally, but you just do it once,
you do it properly then that standard operating procedure is in place the same with the agents
now is when you're building out their workflows their sops the frameworks they take time they
take effort and stuff so do you want to wait until ai is where it can run and do absolutely everything
are you going to wait till that moment where it's super freaking capable it's super capable now
but you're starting from scratch so you've got like this amazing tool it's like a bmw and you've
got the learner key or whatever so it's giving you 10 horsepower instead of a thousand horsepower
or do you want to start tinkering now learning the systems learning how to build the skills the
workflows the frameworks sops and then when it's ready either copy and paste them over or
your agent can do all that for you but everything's already automated and you know
how that automation has come together so on the more powerful models it can then take it up to
the next step and then you can be up here instead of starting from scratch in the future um i just
don't think anyone not paying attention they're just going to get left behind like they don't have
have time unfortunately not not to play around and pay for it because the people paying attention now
compared to the people waiting for for the next local wham bam whiz local model or whatever
they're just going to be so far behind and they're never ever going to catch up it's exponential
so it's a it's a bit like bitcoin you know you you sort of get ai at the price you deserve
100 yeah so what do you think uh and i want to get to bitcoin and ai and there's been a lot of
chatter about this but i i want to hear your thoughts on where you think we're headed so i
my echo chamber sort of uh i think aligns with you and like tony is so excited i mean i know you
know and love tony he's so excited about when this ai is transplanted into human-like droids
that can do anything and everything for you.
Like he thinks that is like,
to me that's like dystopian,
but I understand that's probably where we're headed.
For him, he's just, he's pumped.
So I have an idea.
Do you think, but then,
oh, but then I stepped outside of my echo chamber recently,
a couple of weeks ago,
was talking to a friend of mine and he's,
I wouldn't say he's a normie.
He's awakened to a lot of the things we talk about.
He's not a Bitcoiner though,
but he thinks that the AI thing is way overblown.
It's not like, yes, they'll automate some things.
There'll be some leaps forward with AI.
But at the end of the day, you need consumers who have jobs in order to pay for the things
that AI can provide.
And so it's going to eat itself and die if there isn't something for humans to do.
I would love to hear your thesis on where you think the AI economy is taking us.
Yep.
I dive into that But imagine if he wrong and he takes that opportunity I just not going to play out
I'm not going to learn AI and I'm not going to use it.
if he's wrong in his thesis or it's like when people say bitcoin's never going to work it's
a failed experiment or whatever if they're wrong and bitcoin is apex predator or money and ai is
here to stay and you totally ignore them then you're shooting yourself in the foot whereas the
worst case situation maybe you still believe that they're going to fail and maybe they do fail
But what's the harm in learning them?
You've learned a new skill.
You've paid attention.
There's no downside to it.
And it's like, I believe it's an asymmetric bet.
That's right.
Even if you're wrong, your time wasted is not near as much as what is the opportunity cost of not doing it if the AI maxis and the Bitcoin maxis are right.
Yeah, that's right.
But as for, is it overblown?
not in my own life like i went from a high school dropout to building a seven figure
online company within a couple of months with just talking to ai for four six eight ten hours
a day like it was absolutely relentless and it's like the few hours uh the few years leading up to
that that allowed me to condense that into it so is it overblown like fuck no but
fuck no it's not how people like oh this thing doesn't make any money like you've got no idea
like ideas flowing or percolating or you've got nothing going on if you can't save five minutes
of your time with like even when you're saying when you're trying to get just the youtube
description and everything like that just the first draft and to get it formatted so it looks
good within your youtube description that can save you five minutes and you just chuck it in
and you just edit it super quickly, but it's all in your tone,
your brand, your voice.
It sounds exactly like you.
You just make sure that everything's factual because it can still
hallucinate doing that.
But could it all just go away and could it eat itself?
Sure, it's possible, but humanity seems to always improve on itself
and like the natural state of the market in the words of the author
of the price of tomorrow jeff booth is is deflation and we're going to get better and better and better
and because we can run local models even if um like i just don't see how they could possibly go
away anymore like we've been given this magic box a genie three three magic wishes that we can ask
over and over and over and over and over and over again and we get those delivered to us
every single time like who in their right minds is going to be like no ai is like going away like
yes it's going to displace a lot of people 40 4 000 people of square gone like what are they
going to do hopefully they can leverage ai and they can use it because they've got the skills
they're already peak of their field so they can do something better than i can with doing it but
that playing field stopped i um hope so but then in regards to what what happens that that's when
like universal basic income comes in and people are eating the the bug soup and it will be the
haves and have nots the people with using bitcoin and ai together and the ai agents are going to use
bitcoin they're going to have whatever they want it is like tony yasbeck always says it's like
Elysium there will be people in this AI incredible paradise and there'll be people that are just
living in hell and I was saying this to Tony on the podcast just before I go down to the beach
every afternoon and in the dunes there's a couple of people sleeping rough and stuff
homeless like that is so sad and it feels sometimes like Elysium I'll come out to this
beautiful house with ocean views and everything and we have nice food and like clean clothes and
everything like that nice lawn and just like a lovely environment friends family everything like
that if any anything happened to us a medical appointment or emergency if our dog gets an
allergy and she needs three and a half thousand dollar allergy medication true story we can get
it absolutely no problem we don't even question it whereas some people are living under a fucking
canvas sheet on the beach and what's that from like yes they've probably made some bad choices
I've lived rough um from myself who have lived out of a car for a while out of a tent for for a long
time so I I know what it's like and it's definitely the the choices that I was making but it's also
because the money and everything's broken and it's getting worse and worse and worse and we've got
like three or four hundred thousand australians now homeless because the government's just
obliterating the money it's absolutely worthless and so the the point is if you're not saving and
hard money that can't be um effed with that they can't be manipulated in any way obviously price
short term is a different story and you're not paying attention to ai technology that can really
leverage every area of your life um then you get into those type of situations where you can
prevent it um but yeah i don't think like in regards to your friend
it'll just split like it'll be like that for for some people but the people with with bitcoin
hard assets you know it's hard in a digital age to say gold will still contain like be as useful
as bitcoin it's worked well for 5 000 years like in a local economy and stuff the the gold bugs
they're still going to be all right as well i i believe but unless you're holding gold or bitcoin
or gold i think people are going to be on struggle street and then as time progresses and the iia
agents more and more take up Bitcoin as their medium exchange, then that's going to eat into
that gold market as well. And I was thinking about this last night. There is no way long term,
people like look out a little bit, everyone wants hyper Bitcoinization today, like just make it in
your own life today. It's not coming tomorrow, but it will come. But over time, the AI agents
are only going to accept Bitcoin.
It's backed up by proof of work.
It's limited.
It's scarce.
Can't be manipulated.
Can't be confiscated.
There's nobody going to change it in any way
and they can take 100% ownership of it.
Whereas what like USDC,
it just gets absolutely taken
or the government prints a whole lot of money
and it's worth less
or something like Ethereum
where they changed the rules 300 times
over the last couple of years
or whatever. No, it's going to be Bitcoin. So you probably want to get some Bitcoin and then
learn to use your AI agent and then train it to be able to accept lightning or use lightning on the
402 and exchange things. But it's already happening. AI agents are paying people in Bitcoin to be able
to do work. AI agents are hiring humans to go out and do things. They're paying with credit cards,
they're paying and stable coins they're paying in bitcoin like i i don't know go go out and try
build one even if it takes you a year or six months or whatever it's not going to happen overnight
start building one and then give it capacity to connect connect to the lightning network
and then go out and do things but still like sandbox the hell out of it slowly don't give
it access to your personal information don't connect it to your personal email forward it things
to what it owns and what it controls,
but don't give it like your personal stuff.
Not yet.
Yeah, yeah.
Man, okay.
So Bitcoin and AI,
we've just got a couple minutes here.
Your final thoughts on how Bitcoin gets integrated
because I know a lot of people are saying,
and we talked about this on our live stream earlier today,
that if you do like these,
you can sort of model this out
and it looks like the LLMs want Bitcoin broadly.
Almost half of them prefer that over stable coins or obviously fiat.
It's very slow.
Let's ask ChatGPT real quick.
Is this an experiment you've done?
No, never.
Hey, I'm just on a podcast talking with Michael Jordan.
And I was just wondering in regards to AI, what type of currency in the future they are going to want to accept?
Would it be fiat currency like the US dollar, something like Bitcoin?
Would it be something like XRP or Ethereum?
What would be the AI agent's best pick?
Well, I can't speak for AI agents as if they have preferences like people.
But if we're talking about how they might handle transactions in the future, it would probably depend on the systems we humans set up.
AI would likely work with whatever currency is most efficient.
Oh, that's a fucking dead song.
That is Chad J.P.T. for you.
It's like a shit.
Politically correct.
Yeah.
But I saw a study from the Bitcoin Policy Institute that said they gave these different conversations, like 9,000 conversations across a number of LLMs, I think.
and it was like almost half of them said bitcoin and you've got to think that crock
kimmy but they all say bitcoin yeah anthropic that's the thing is i actually use chat gpt
as my litmus test i'll ask it if i ask it a an unpopular historical question i want to see what
it says first because it's going to have the most mainstream woke bullshit sort of answer
and if it gives me feedback that seems out of place for it to provide, I tend to assume it's
true. I don't assume it's true, obviously, if it's feed me the same thing that I learned in
elementary school, but it's a good start. It's a good diving off point. Okay. Hey, man, I want to
be respectful of your time. I know you're on a tight schedule today. My last question for you,
same one I ask everyone, what is an unpopular opinion that you hold? You get bonus points if
you offend some bitcoiners with it i don't know if it's unpopular but the people leveraging bitcoin
in any way are very misguided and i believe they're trying like it's that poor gambling get
rich quick mentality and they don't understand bitcoin at all they they're not here for for the
revolution they haven't put in enough proof of work so what what what kind of people are you
are you describing here like what kind of big what kind of bitcoiners
is it well they're not bitcoiners they're like they're shit coining on bitcoin yeah yeah yeah
yeah like they're suit coiners but anyone that wants to get the world's hardest
yes it's the best form of collateral and stuff and for a company to lend you fiat dollars in
exchange for your bitcoin best business model in the world like it truly is they've got absolutely
no risk at all but just recently with the last pull down where it came to 61 000 some people
that i thought were incredible bitcoiners that doing amazing things in the space getting close
to getting liquidated, like losing nearly 90% of their Bitcoin stack,
they haven't put in the proof of work.
Fucking misguided.
So how to describe them?
Lazy misguided on the nice side.
I won't go any worse than that.
Okay.
No, I think that's a good one.
I don't know if that'll offend our audience.
Probably.
If you can imagine.
Most people following you guys get it.
You don't trade Bitcoin.
You trade everything else for Bitcoin.
You don't take leverage on something as volatile as Bitcoin in the short term.
You just do everything you can to get as much of it and to self-custody.
That's it.
It's maybe boring, but it shouldn't be exciting.
It's just superior savings technology.
And then go out and provide value.
Use AI to be able to create value, to be able to get more Bitcoin and just repeat.
Beautifully said, my friend.
And Sean, why don't you give people a handoff?
Tell them where they can find you and anything else you want to point them to.
Yeah, cool.
I'll give you a link.
But if anyone's interested in learning about AI and Bitcoin over the next year, if you'd
like to book a call and learn more, you can.
I'll give Michael the link.
But G'day Bitcoin over on YouTube.
It's also my ex-account, SeanClark911.
Incredible podcast, incredible guests, an amazing conversation I had recently with Michael
that's out there for you to check.
But just come over and say g'day.
And the final message is what I think is the most important
over the next 12 to 36 months to be able to focus on
is get an amazing habit stack, build a personal brand,
use AI and save and stack and become sovereign with Bitcoin.
If you can sort out those four things,
you're going to be happy days and we're going to live in Elysium.
if not it's um it's gonna be a hard time for for many people and if i'm wrong and you still learn
those things do there's no bad side it's all all upside anyway i think that's a great place to
close sean thanks for the time man enjoyed the chat and i look forward to staying in touch
always a pleasure thank you cheers brother and that's a wrap again i hope you enjoyed my
conversation with sean this guy is doing amazing things go check out his uh page on x go follow
him. Go check out everything else he's offering. This guy is a world of knowledge and insight.
I think everyone should be paying attention to what he is talking about and follow along on his
journey and start taking steps yourself. And of course, if you need help taking your Bitcoin into
proper 100% self-custody, go to thebitcoinway.com slash podcast. You can schedule a free 30-minute
consult with a member of our team. We can talk you through proper self-custody, protecting your
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extremely popular in Panama. Again, it's the Bitcoin way.com slash podcast. It costs you
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