1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:09,480 What I would do was I would actually fix the problems that other politicians were paying billboards to say that they would fix if they got elected. 2 00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:11,160 If they got elected. 3 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:13,260 How would you pitch Panama? 4 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:21,560 So if you've got someone in Australia who's like, I'm getting taxed because I live on the fourth floor of my building and I have a view and they charge me a view tax. 5 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:22,360 No way. 6 00:00:22,820 --> 00:00:23,200 Yeah. 7 00:00:23,700 --> 00:00:24,840 I don't want progress. 8 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:25,800 I want leaps. 9 00:00:26,140 --> 00:00:27,060 I want transformation. 10 00:00:27,060 --> 00:00:32,060 because progress means anticipated and projected growth over time. 11 00:00:32,300 --> 00:00:33,700 There are livelihoods at stake. 12 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:35,660 Some of these people don't have time. 13 00:00:36,220 --> 00:00:37,940 I find it ironic because in the U.S., 14 00:00:37,940 --> 00:00:39,680 there are a lot of Bitcoiners who are cheering on 15 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:42,280 a bunch of crypto Bitcoin related legislation. 16 00:00:42,580 --> 00:00:45,260 And I'm like, guys, we don't need the government to tell us what to do. 17 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:48,240 Like the whole point of Bitcoin is let people operate independently. 18 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:49,860 I was high in the sky. 19 00:00:50,020 --> 00:00:51,440 I was like, this is what I wanted. 20 00:00:51,700 --> 00:00:53,440 I'm making it in the U.S. 21 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:54,040 This is great. 22 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:54,820 This is awesome. 23 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:56,440 And yeah, then that happened. 24 00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:58,280 And that kind of changed everything. 25 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:09,740 Hey, everyone. 26 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:11,400 Michael here with the Bitcoin Way podcast. 27 00:01:11,660 --> 00:01:13,440 Thank you for tuning in today on the show. 28 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:17,740 I have the mayor of Panama City, Panama, Mayer Mizrachi. 29 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:23,220 Mayer is an interesting guest, fascinating guy, tech background, so very forward thinking. 30 00:01:23,220 --> 00:01:33,300 And I think you'll begin to understand why we at the Bitcoin Way are so excited about Panama as a plan B residency or a plan A, if you feel so inclined. 31 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:37,180 But this was a fascinating and fun conversation. I think you are going to love it. 32 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:42,320 Hey, everyone. Like I said in the intro, I've got Meyer here. Meyer, welcome to the Bitcoin Way podcast. 33 00:01:42,740 --> 00:01:43,440 How's it going, Michael? 34 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:45,960 Doing well. Thank you so much for being here. 35 00:01:45,960 --> 00:01:55,240 This is a particularly exciting conversation for me, for us, because, I mean, anyone who's listened to our podcast knows we hype up Panama so much. 36 00:01:55,560 --> 00:02:01,780 We've got a team, as I told you, offline down there right now, onboarding 50 folks into a Plan B residency. 37 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:09,080 People looking to get out of some of the more tyrannical jurisdictions, I guess you might say, across the world. 38 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:11,300 And I think this is going to be a really fun conversation. 39 00:02:12,020 --> 00:02:14,660 One of the things that stood out to me is I did my research. 40 00:02:14,660 --> 00:02:23,100 I was looking at you, some interviews you've done is, you know, you're I think maybe the youngest mayor of Panama City ever. 41 00:02:23,740 --> 00:02:33,780 You've got that tech background. Why don't you talk to me a little bit about how you approach becoming the mayor of Panama City in a way that was perhaps different than your predecessors? 42 00:02:33,780 --> 00:02:39,600 Well, I think I got lucky because ultimately people were really freaking tired of politicians. 43 00:02:40,500 --> 00:02:53,260 So if I would have used my normal Silicon Valley startup approach as I go to solving problems or pitching ideas, I would say five years ago, it would not have worked. 44 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:55,700 Instead, the timing was perfect. 45 00:02:55,900 --> 00:02:56,880 They wanted someone young. 46 00:02:57,300 --> 00:02:59,000 People wanted something disruptive. 47 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:02,000 and they wanted something that they could... 48 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:09,720 People are tired of listening to rhetoric and empty promises. 49 00:03:10,940 --> 00:03:15,560 So I think this is perfect for the Silicon Valley mindset. 50 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:16,420 What do we do? 51 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:21,400 When we come up with an idea for a startup, for a product, for a feature, 52 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:22,740 we test it. 53 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:24,440 We run a pilot, right? 54 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:29,220 We do A-B testing and it's ship first, ship fast. 55 00:03:29,660 --> 00:03:31,240 You don't wait till it's perfect. 56 00:03:31,700 --> 00:03:41,060 You immediately show proof of concept and you get validation from the market instead of waiting two years, a mega project, a ribbon cutting ceremony. 57 00:03:41,260 --> 00:03:45,140 And then ultimately, it turns out people don't actually want that. 58 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:47,200 So I kind of use that approach. 59 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:48,920 I'll give you a perfect example. 60 00:03:48,920 --> 00:04:01,600 So one of the great things about our campaign was that it was the first campaign in history where we didn't spend any money on paid advertising. 61 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:04,420 There were no billboards at all. 62 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:07,440 There were no flyers, no billboards, not a thing. 63 00:04:08,620 --> 00:04:10,040 Everything was organic. 64 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:17,920 so what i would do was i would actually fix the problems that other politicians were 65 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:26,160 paying billboards to say that they would fix if they got elected if they got elected so you know 66 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:31,940 when you set it up that way i'm like okay you know we can we can beat you at that game by just doing 67 00:04:31,940 --> 00:04:37,440 the work now and it's cheaper than paying for the billboard so we would actually fix the pothole 68 00:04:38,060 --> 00:04:45,340 So they thought it was brilliant to put a billboard next to a pothole that says, if you elect me, you will no longer see this pothole. 69 00:04:45,340 --> 00:04:48,280 So we went ahead and fixed the freaking pothole. 70 00:04:48,500 --> 00:04:54,280 And all of a sudden, his $5,000 spend for that month was out the window because we actually fixed the problem. 71 00:04:54,620 --> 00:04:55,740 And that's what people want. 72 00:04:56,180 --> 00:04:57,980 They want people who solve the problem. 73 00:04:58,840 --> 00:05:04,880 Now, not contingent on you voting for me, but that's what gains you credibility. 74 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:15,360 That's what gains you people's trust. And understanding that, I think we kind of did politics better than the politicians by just being more human. 75 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:42,540 Yeah, it seems like it would be an easy, easy gap to fill for some of these people, but but perhaps not. So you've got a I mean, obviously a tech background. You think very innovatively about how you approach any problem, including becoming a candidate for for mayor of Panama City. Can you talk to me a little bit about what you've done? Cryptex, you know, everything that you've sort of worked on and before politics, right? 76 00:05:42,540 --> 00:05:59,020 Yeah, so I started, I went deep into communications and messaging apps when I was in college. This was 2011. And I started building messaging apps before WhatsApp was on iPhone. 77 00:05:59,020 --> 00:06:07,280 so um i got late to market i'm not a programmer myself i had to hire programmers i had no control 78 00:06:07,280 --> 00:06:13,900 over code or shipping a product and the first version the first product i ever built was called 79 00:06:13,900 --> 00:06:21,000 jiggle i was in i was in college and uh it got to market late whatsapp had already dominated 80 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:24,600 the bridge between BlackBerry and iOS and Android. 81 00:06:26,100 --> 00:06:29,960 So we pivoted into encrypted messaging. 82 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:32,740 So we went to a specific category, a vertical, 83 00:06:33,220 --> 00:06:35,980 that we wanted to focus on, just privacy and security. 84 00:06:37,020 --> 00:06:38,380 This is 2013. 85 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:42,080 Remember, in 2013, encryption was not a thing. 86 00:06:42,620 --> 00:06:45,600 So messaging apps, they were all wide open. 87 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:48,760 There was no end-to-end encryption happening on WhatsApp 88 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:51,620 or iMessage for that matter. 89 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:54,220 I know a lot of people in America use iMessage, 90 00:06:54,340 --> 00:06:55,780 but everywhere else around the world, 91 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:58,940 people use WhatsApp or an alternative. 92 00:07:01,740 --> 00:07:07,800 So Cryptex also became an encrypted email system. 93 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:12,880 So we took the encryption protocol and took it to Gmail. 94 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:15,720 So we said, it's really hard to get people 95 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:17,940 to change their existing platform. 96 00:07:17,940 --> 00:07:36,500 So then my mindset changed. It wasn't, hey, here's an app. Use my app instead of the one you're already using and set up your entire social network here. That's quite high of a barrier to entry. So instead I said, okay, let's now work on top of existing platforms. That was a total different change in mindset as an entrepreneur. 97 00:07:36,500 --> 00:07:47,340 So it was a plugin that worked on Gmail and it would automatically encrypt and decrypt any emails you would get from Gmail. 98 00:07:48,340 --> 00:07:52,320 It was fun. That was great. That was actually the best functioning product. 99 00:07:55,200 --> 00:08:06,420 What led to my involvement in politics was that Cryptex, the encrypted messaging platform, was licensed by the government of Panama because they got hacked. 100 00:08:06,500 --> 00:08:12,760 in 2013. So in 2014, they come to me, they realized that I was building this and they said, 101 00:08:12,940 --> 00:08:18,880 okay, so we can get this for a lot cheaper than what BlackBerry is charging us for their BBM 102 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:26,100 solution. And for $200,000, I gave them a one year's license, very cheap, very simple. 103 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:33,620 And everything worked. Everything worked really well. They had a hundred users using the platform. 104 00:08:33,620 --> 00:08:38,800 they managed the distribution i just gave them an admin platform that they distributed 105 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:46,060 uh they issued users user ids to whomever they wanted you could download the app from the app 106 00:08:46,060 --> 00:08:52,480 store but you couldn't use it unless you had a user that was issued by the state so um change 107 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:58,660 of government comes in that year in 2014 and then the new government decides to persecute 108 00:08:58,660 --> 00:09:06,320 the old government um and they used my contract to go against the ex-minister technology 109 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:18,180 um and and very quickly um i was what i was like 25 24 at the time 25 and very quickly uh 110 00:09:18,180 --> 00:09:26,920 I ended up caught up in this world of politics, lawsuits. 111 00:09:28,820 --> 00:09:33,920 What do they call it when they use the legal system? 112 00:09:35,380 --> 00:09:36,380 Illegal warfare. 113 00:09:37,180 --> 00:09:38,800 Yeah, it was basically illegal warfare. 114 00:09:39,580 --> 00:09:42,160 But anyhow, one thing led to the other. 115 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:48,320 they alluded to the fact that I embezzled funds because I didn't deliver the software, 116 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:52,420 which was a joke because it's tech. 117 00:09:52,580 --> 00:09:54,860 It's not like this piece of Lego, right? 118 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:59,540 You can make this piece of Lego disappear and say, I never gave it to you. 119 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:03,400 But when it comes to tech, there's a paper trail. 120 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:06,240 There's crumbs all over. 121 00:10:06,380 --> 00:10:09,780 So we could actually prove that we didn't just deliver it. 122 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:10,540 They used it. 123 00:10:10,540 --> 00:10:12,980 They were using it as they were suing me. 124 00:10:13,860 --> 00:10:16,180 But that was mistake number one. 125 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:19,840 That's when I realized that the problem was not the allegations. 126 00:10:20,260 --> 00:10:22,580 It was actually the loss. 127 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:32,340 The goal is to run up and down the stairs and get you mixed up in all of this. 128 00:10:32,340 --> 00:10:37,780 just in the very thin line of doubt 129 00:10:37,780 --> 00:10:41,860 so that they can have a legal process against you. 130 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:44,680 Before I get deeper into that, 131 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:48,520 at that time, I was living in New York. 132 00:10:49,220 --> 00:10:51,320 I was not just building my startup, 133 00:10:51,420 --> 00:10:52,780 but I was investing in startups. 134 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:55,840 I was deep into the Silicon Valley rabbit hole. 135 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:56,540 I loved it. 136 00:10:56,780 --> 00:10:58,840 Honestly, I would go to conferences. 137 00:10:59,340 --> 00:11:02,140 I would go to fireside chats and meetups 138 00:11:02,140 --> 00:11:08,760 all the time um i was pretty sure i didn't want to live in panama um i wanted to make it big um in 139 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:18,100 in silicon valley um even uh was it it was business insider uh wrote us an article that year we raised 140 00:11:18,100 --> 00:11:25,240 like six hundred thousand dollars i i i i was like on route you know i was high in the sky i was like 141 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:31,560 this is what i wanted i'm making it in the u.s this is this is great this is awesome um 142 00:11:31,560 --> 00:11:33,780 And yeah, then that happened. 143 00:11:33,940 --> 00:11:36,240 And that kind of changed everything. 144 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:40,040 It changed my entire life, my family's life. 145 00:11:40,340 --> 00:11:44,020 And it changed, I would say, the history of this country. 146 00:11:44,660 --> 00:11:48,300 Because that guy ended up becoming the mayor. 147 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:56,620 So that one decision that a politician decided to pull off really did change the course of history. 148 00:11:56,840 --> 00:11:57,480 We don't know. 149 00:11:57,600 --> 00:11:58,480 I hope for good. 150 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:01,260 The process was freaking terrible. 151 00:12:01,260 --> 00:12:02,320 Can I curse? 152 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:02,960 Sure. 153 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:03,720 Okay. 154 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:05,940 I'm very lax in that matter. 155 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:13,040 I really don't handle myself with a lot of diplomacy as a politician normally does. 156 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:14,960 But yeah, it was quite fucked up. 157 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:19,520 Like it was from 2014 to 2025. 158 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:22,660 That was 11 years of hell. 159 00:12:23,560 --> 00:12:24,160 2024. 160 00:12:24,420 --> 00:12:26,380 It was 10 years of hell. 161 00:12:26,380 --> 00:12:34,760 um and the process you know i i who was it what's this guy from england i forget his name um 162 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:40,620 tommy robinson oh yeah yeah so you know he went through something very similar and he had 163 00:12:40,620 --> 00:12:51,200 he has a he he has a great saying he says the process the the investigation is the aim 164 00:12:51,200 --> 00:13:01,660 what is it um i don't know the quote is it's sort of the the uh that that basically them putting you 165 00:13:01,660 --> 00:13:05,840 through this meat grinder is sort of the whole point of it it's not about what their end outcome 166 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:15,540 is but it's like the disparagement the like the the process the investigation the process is the 167 00:13:15,540 --> 00:13:19,320 is definitely the conviction. 168 00:13:20,420 --> 00:13:21,700 The conviction is the process. 169 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:24,340 In fact, had I actually gone to jail, 170 00:13:24,420 --> 00:13:25,940 I would have spent less time than I did 171 00:13:25,940 --> 00:13:30,160 by battling the process and demonstrating my innocence. 172 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:36,080 So this is a bit of how the sophisticated politicians 173 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:38,560 and voyeurs actually handle power. 174 00:13:38,560 --> 00:13:44,780 That's actual power play at a world-class level. 175 00:13:44,780 --> 00:13:52,940 That's the way it really works, right? So you've got a set of laws and then politicians or lawyers 176 00:13:52,940 --> 00:13:59,200 that work around these laws to permissibly do whatever the fuck they want. 177 00:14:00,340 --> 00:14:06,620 So what was the leap then into politics? Was it just like you were disillusioned with what you'd 178 00:14:06,620 --> 00:14:12,640 witnessed and you said, I want to make a change here? Yeah. No, I mean, I was persecuted by an 179 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:19,680 actual president it wasn't just some joe schmoe it was the president that went after me and um 180 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:28,800 and when i under i started to understand how the sausage gets made and that kind of 181 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:35,300 made me realize that i was living all these other years like in a make-believe 182 00:14:35,300 --> 00:14:37,640 of a perfect world. 183 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:39,300 Like I can't be building startups 184 00:14:39,300 --> 00:14:46,380 under a platform of legal injustice 185 00:14:46,380 --> 00:14:50,660 or insecurity or political instability 186 00:14:50,660 --> 00:14:54,060 that can make whatever I build disappear, right? 187 00:14:54,120 --> 00:15:06,690 Like who going to build like for example go to someone and tell them hey do you want to build an app for BlackBerry They probably going to say no right They going to say no It the same 188 00:15:06,690 --> 00:15:12,790 thing. That's how I thought back then. I was like, why would I build a company under this ecosystem? 189 00:15:13,310 --> 00:15:21,170 I need to solve the problem. I like to actually solve problems. So I started to get like a 190 00:15:21,170 --> 00:15:26,250 political awakening and understanding how things work. And I didn't just focus on Panamating 191 00:15:26,250 --> 00:15:30,470 politics. On the contrary, actually, I focused a lot more on the US because they're a lot more 192 00:15:30,470 --> 00:15:36,310 sophisticated and there are a hundred layers between you and the decision makers. Whereas 193 00:15:36,310 --> 00:15:43,270 in Panama, there's probably two layers between you and the president. I'm probably two, 194 00:15:43,730 --> 00:15:49,770 at this point, two, but you can be three to four degrees away from the decision maker in a small 195 00:15:49,770 --> 00:15:59,110 country like panama so what what really triggered it was i instead of shying away from everything i 196 00:15:59,110 --> 00:16:08,550 went through i leaned into it so i became a very open-minded and outspoken public figure here in 197 00:16:08,550 --> 00:16:14,470 panama you would say you could say i could i became an influencer although i never sold you 198 00:16:14,470 --> 00:16:19,010 know ad space or did any paid promotions of any kind i don't do that kind of stuff or giveaways 199 00:16:19,010 --> 00:16:24,890 or any of that. I just wanted to have a voice because I realized that no matter how right I was, 200 00:16:24,970 --> 00:16:30,470 there was no one there to listen to me. The media was bought and paid for. Everyone was aligned with 201 00:16:30,470 --> 00:16:38,230 the power, the people who control power. So I realized I had to generate my own power, 202 00:16:38,690 --> 00:16:44,250 my own measure of wealth. And it wasn't in cash because it's not money. It's reputation, 203 00:16:44,250 --> 00:16:54,850 it's credibility it's influence and i started that um uh backtrack i ended up six months in prison 204 00:16:54,850 --> 00:17:02,990 yeah so was this the columbia story yeah yeah that's the columbia story okay so so so what 205 00:17:02,990 --> 00:17:08,450 happened then was i was just traveling from new york to columbia for new year's with my friends 206 00:17:08,450 --> 00:17:13,030 and then this was 2015, December 2015. 207 00:17:14,550 --> 00:17:17,190 And when I got to Colombia, I get arrested 208 00:17:17,190 --> 00:17:22,690 under a supposed Interpol Red Notice. 209 00:17:23,070 --> 00:17:25,590 This was like three days after El Chapo. 210 00:17:26,210 --> 00:17:26,570 All right. 211 00:17:27,010 --> 00:17:29,630 So I was like, wait, Red Notice, 212 00:17:29,750 --> 00:17:31,010 isn't that what the El Chapo had? 213 00:17:31,430 --> 00:17:33,730 They're like, yeah, you're some wanted guy. 214 00:17:33,810 --> 00:17:35,430 I'm like, what the, are you fucking kidding me? 215 00:17:36,490 --> 00:17:37,610 So they arrest me. 216 00:17:37,610 --> 00:17:41,590 And of course, I'm thinking, oh, we know people. 217 00:17:42,050 --> 00:17:44,030 I'm pretty well connected in Colombia. 218 00:17:44,190 --> 00:17:45,330 This is all a mistake. 219 00:17:45,650 --> 00:17:46,170 Can't be. 220 00:17:46,570 --> 00:17:46,950 All right. 221 00:17:47,470 --> 00:17:47,990 Whatever. 222 00:17:48,650 --> 00:17:52,470 We'll go to the station and then we'll get this order out and you'll let me go. 223 00:17:55,710 --> 00:17:58,310 At least I was optimistic. 224 00:17:58,450 --> 00:18:00,050 At least I've always been optimistic. 225 00:18:00,930 --> 00:18:07,190 Because knowing then that I would be stuck in a prison cell for, you know, Colombian maximum security prison. 226 00:18:07,610 --> 00:18:08,890 For six months. 227 00:18:09,770 --> 00:18:11,090 With no conviction. 228 00:18:11,330 --> 00:18:12,230 No charges. 229 00:18:13,590 --> 00:18:16,350 And haven't paid bail on day one. 230 00:18:17,150 --> 00:18:17,730 Posted bond. 231 00:18:18,250 --> 00:18:18,850 On day one. 232 00:18:19,250 --> 00:18:20,270 They still wouldn't let me free. 233 00:18:20,270 --> 00:18:21,550 It was fucked up. 234 00:18:23,430 --> 00:18:25,850 What's most fucked up about that part. 235 00:18:26,030 --> 00:18:26,470 Is that. 236 00:18:27,250 --> 00:18:28,890 When I come out of prison. 237 00:18:30,470 --> 00:18:31,890 We had been. 238 00:18:32,190 --> 00:18:33,470 Lobbying with. 239 00:18:34,790 --> 00:18:35,910 Interpol in Lyon. 240 00:18:36,070 --> 00:18:36,350 France. 241 00:18:36,350 --> 00:18:44,410 and we gave them all our information and when they asked panama to to back up their information 242 00:18:44,410 --> 00:18:52,390 like their evidence um they couldn't so interpol was like okay we've we've expunged your history 243 00:18:52,390 --> 00:18:58,290 from our database because panama apparently gave us false information for your red notice like so 244 00:18:58,290 --> 00:19:05,450 that's it you're fucking kidding me are you are you are you kidding me yeah that was that was 245 00:19:05,450 --> 00:19:13,870 screwed up that was screwed up bittersweet like um yeah it was a bit of horrible way to spend six 246 00:19:13,870 --> 00:19:18,750 months but i imagine an eye-opening experience and again it's very much so politics at play so 247 00:19:18,750 --> 00:19:26,670 so then fast forward you said you you commit okay i'm running for mayor of panama city you take 248 00:19:26,670 --> 00:19:35,790 office in July of 24. Okay. July 24. No. And so what was the, what was your platform? Like what 249 00:19:35,790 --> 00:19:40,530 did you, so I understand that the approach he took was very unique. What did you say? This is what I 250 00:19:40,530 --> 00:19:44,810 want to get done. And what about that do you think resonated with, uh, with the voters? 251 00:19:45,970 --> 00:19:53,610 So, um, voters just wanted someone that could fix small problems. They want, they didn't, 252 00:19:53,610 --> 00:19:56,190 I never promised that I would fix the country. 253 00:19:56,870 --> 00:20:02,870 I said, hey, you know, I've been fixing potholes for the last three years out of my own goodwill. 254 00:20:03,490 --> 00:20:09,210 If I could have the mayor's seat, then I could do a lot more of that. 255 00:20:09,850 --> 00:20:11,470 And probably a lot more than just potholes. 256 00:20:11,470 --> 00:20:24,170 I started building bridges in communities that couldn't – that they would get kind of like a – how do you call it? 257 00:20:25,290 --> 00:20:27,390 Just like red tape in the way? 258 00:20:27,510 --> 00:20:27,910 Yeah. 259 00:20:29,270 --> 00:20:33,970 For you to use a single penny of the government's money, it takes time. 260 00:20:34,670 --> 00:20:38,170 So I've always used my own money to fix problems. 261 00:20:38,170 --> 00:20:41,590 and like I fixed up a municipal gym, a public gym 262 00:20:41,590 --> 00:20:44,710 because I used to box there all the time in 2022. 263 00:20:45,150 --> 00:20:46,830 And I would go like at 5 a.m. 264 00:20:47,290 --> 00:20:48,290 And it was dark. 265 00:20:48,370 --> 00:20:49,130 There was no lights. 266 00:20:49,370 --> 00:20:50,550 So I started putting lights. 267 00:20:50,750 --> 00:20:51,870 Then when it would rain, 268 00:20:52,630 --> 00:20:54,170 then the water would seep through. 269 00:20:54,270 --> 00:20:55,150 So I changed the roof. 270 00:20:55,650 --> 00:20:58,790 And then like the floor was shitty. 271 00:20:59,010 --> 00:21:01,830 So I repaved the entire fucking floor. 272 00:21:01,830 --> 00:21:02,550 And then I put like, 273 00:21:02,810 --> 00:21:05,110 I just redid the whole freaking gym. 274 00:21:05,350 --> 00:21:07,570 It cost me about $30,000 of my own money. 275 00:21:08,170 --> 00:21:11,050 And for me, it was like money well spent. 276 00:21:11,350 --> 00:21:12,230 I loved it. 277 00:21:12,750 --> 00:21:13,610 This was 2022. 278 00:21:13,870 --> 00:21:15,690 I was not thinking of running for office. 279 00:21:16,170 --> 00:21:19,130 I just really enjoyed fucking the system. 280 00:21:19,730 --> 00:21:23,430 I really did enjoy it because at that point, I also knew what I was doing. 281 00:21:24,010 --> 00:21:28,070 The mayor can't come and say, hey, stop fixing people's lives. 282 00:21:28,270 --> 00:21:29,890 That would make him even more unpopular. 283 00:21:30,650 --> 00:21:30,850 Right? 284 00:21:31,270 --> 00:21:33,730 So it's like a got you. 285 00:21:35,590 --> 00:21:37,270 And I started doing that. 286 00:21:37,270 --> 00:21:39,670 And so what did I promise? 287 00:21:39,810 --> 00:21:42,630 Well, I promised that I would reduce the size of government. 288 00:21:42,930 --> 00:21:44,530 I would reduce bureaucracy. 289 00:21:44,730 --> 00:21:46,490 I would digitalize as much as we could. 290 00:21:47,670 --> 00:21:51,410 And I would spend a lot less money and do a lot more. 291 00:21:52,290 --> 00:21:59,250 And in the first year of being in office, we fulfilled about 68% of our campaign promises. 292 00:22:00,010 --> 00:22:00,330 68. 293 00:22:00,790 --> 00:22:05,550 Including the biggest budget cut in history in the public sector of Panama. 294 00:22:05,550 --> 00:22:09,450 So we cut our budget by 38%. 295 00:22:09,450 --> 00:22:17,490 And we managed to execute a lot more than the previous year. 296 00:22:17,770 --> 00:22:21,250 So the previous mayor with a third less, over a third less. 297 00:22:21,930 --> 00:22:26,370 And we also cut personnel by 50%. 298 00:22:26,370 --> 00:22:29,110 So we had about 6,500 people here. 299 00:22:29,770 --> 00:22:33,550 And as soon as I came in, we did away with half of them. 300 00:22:33,830 --> 00:22:34,310 Wow. 301 00:22:34,310 --> 00:22:45,290 gone 3 500 people were gone and and things started running smoother faster more optimized so as i 302 00:22:45,290 --> 00:22:52,050 explain to people that's evidence that we were carrying unnecessary weight right um so the 303 00:22:52,050 --> 00:22:59,430 problem was that my great benefit has been that i won out of the the will of the people 304 00:22:59,430 --> 00:23:04,430 and not because I subscribed to some party or indebted myself to a system. 305 00:23:05,190 --> 00:23:09,350 So generally, you have to rise the ranks within a party. 306 00:23:09,650 --> 00:23:12,530 Then you've got to win primaries in your party. 307 00:23:12,750 --> 00:23:14,750 Then you've got to win general elections. 308 00:23:15,530 --> 00:23:20,730 People negotiate, they associate, they do coalitions, all this to try and win the office of the mayor. 309 00:23:20,730 --> 00:23:26,210 After the president in Panama, the highest seat is mayor of the city of Panama. 310 00:23:26,490 --> 00:23:28,470 70% of the GDP is in this district. 311 00:23:28,470 --> 00:23:38,150 So it's probably the most important – after the president, the most important role for election. 312 00:23:40,030 --> 00:23:53,510 So because I won out of the merit of people, my own credibility, I was not in debt to this infrastructure of people that I said, if you vote for me, I'm going to give you a job. 313 00:23:53,950 --> 00:23:55,570 I'm going to give your family a job. 314 00:23:56,410 --> 00:23:57,390 It wasn't that. 315 00:23:57,390 --> 00:24:05,410 so i was able to clean house and and do as you know do just the common sense believe it or not 316 00:24:05,410 --> 00:24:11,870 politicians do have common sense but they have greater conflicts of interest right the incentive 317 00:24:11,870 --> 00:24:18,390 that's it yeah the incentive structures are and then that's the other part i was like i'm not 318 00:24:18,390 --> 00:24:22,270 going to change my life i'm going to live the same exact life i'm going to live in the same exact 319 00:24:22,270 --> 00:24:27,590 building, the same apartment, drive the same car, live the same lifestyle. I was already wealthy 320 00:24:27,590 --> 00:24:34,230 before coming into office. So I wasn't going to now show that I'm like this humble. I suppose I'm 321 00:24:34,230 --> 00:24:39,490 humble, but I'm not going to like overcompensate and try and show something that I'm not. I'm going 322 00:24:39,490 --> 00:24:45,690 to be the same organic, authentic person. I drive my own car. I bought a Cybertruck back in pandemic. 323 00:24:45,690 --> 00:24:52,870 I put my reservation and luckily enough, I got elected and I received the car like two days after I got elected. 324 00:24:53,390 --> 00:25:08,630 And that whole storytelling, because I can tell the story and because I published it three years ago, people understand that they see not a Cybertruck, but a story of making your own dreams come true in spite of difficulties. 325 00:25:09,110 --> 00:25:11,910 You remember where we all were in pandemic when it all started. 326 00:25:12,030 --> 00:25:13,350 We didn't know where we were going to be. 327 00:25:13,350 --> 00:25:14,570 Couldn't even drive cars. 328 00:25:15,690 --> 00:25:19,550 So I keep the same lifestyle. 329 00:25:20,790 --> 00:25:24,210 No one gets a driver at City Hall. 330 00:25:24,450 --> 00:25:25,670 Everyone had drivers. 331 00:25:26,330 --> 00:25:28,650 Everyone had a car paid for by City Hall. 332 00:25:29,130 --> 00:25:31,530 Everyone had a driver and a bodyguard. 333 00:25:32,390 --> 00:25:33,430 Gone, gone, gone. 334 00:25:34,150 --> 00:25:34,430 All right. 335 00:25:34,490 --> 00:25:36,770 Like the amount of money that we're saving is just unreal. 336 00:25:36,870 --> 00:25:38,950 I'm like, you drive a car. 337 00:25:39,530 --> 00:25:39,830 Yes. 338 00:25:40,230 --> 00:25:41,490 So what do you need an extra car? 339 00:25:41,490 --> 00:25:45,370 Like purposely, as an economist, from a utility standpoint, 340 00:25:45,370 --> 00:25:47,650 how can you use two cars at once 341 00:25:47,650 --> 00:25:48,950 you cannot so why 342 00:25:48,950 --> 00:25:50,810 I don't want to depreciate my car 343 00:25:50,810 --> 00:25:52,450 you're depreciating your own life 344 00:25:52,450 --> 00:25:54,810 what's more valuable than your own time 345 00:25:54,810 --> 00:25:56,410 your own body you're depreciating it 346 00:25:56,410 --> 00:25:59,490 I'm depreciating my own car 347 00:25:59,490 --> 00:26:00,070 so will you 348 00:26:00,070 --> 00:26:01,210 these are the rules of the game 349 00:26:01,210 --> 00:26:02,870 same thing with phones 350 00:26:02,870 --> 00:26:04,790 they would have new phones every 6 months 351 00:26:04,790 --> 00:26:06,350 new freaking phones 352 00:26:06,350 --> 00:26:09,290 guys you want an iPhone you pay for your own phone 353 00:26:09,290 --> 00:26:10,430 that's it 354 00:26:10,430 --> 00:26:13,730 if you weren't working at city hall 355 00:26:13,730 --> 00:26:15,050 you would still have a phone 356 00:26:15,050 --> 00:26:22,290 that's that's like my logic also you're earning six thousand dollars a month like that's a high 357 00:26:22,290 --> 00:26:27,970 that's a very high salary for panama you can pay for it do you want an suv go ahead and get 358 00:26:27,970 --> 00:26:33,630 a loan for your own suv but it's your suv not the city's and you pay for it you know what's crazy 359 00:26:33,630 --> 00:26:38,270 about this is that i think what you just said i think a lot of people don't even realize that that 360 00:26:38,270 --> 00:26:44,110 is just the nature of politics is that you get the new phone you get the car you get the driver 361 00:26:44,110 --> 00:26:51,530 you get the security personnel you get like you you you extrapolate that across an entire 362 00:26:51,530 --> 00:26:58,490 government of a large city much less a country and like that's where the taxpayers money money 363 00:26:58,490 --> 00:27:04,210 is going to right like that that's that's why people have a a substandard you know lifestyle 364 00:27:04,210 --> 00:27:10,030 is because they're paying for that and people hate it like if you want to be a popular politician 365 00:27:10,030 --> 00:27:17,250 try to be a normal human being right people hate this politician that comes from nothing and all 366 00:27:17,250 --> 00:27:24,410 of a sudden is you know living an overprivileged life with all these perks that that you know like 367 00:27:24,410 --> 00:27:31,050 why do you need them first of all i don't need a freaking bodyguard like no one tries to this is 368 00:27:31,050 --> 00:27:36,850 not colombia okay you don't have the insecurity of colombia also what a marketing stunt is that 369 00:27:36,850 --> 00:27:38,390 for the security of your own country. 370 00:27:38,830 --> 00:27:40,130 Our country is so safe. 371 00:27:40,630 --> 00:27:43,230 I drive my own car and I don't have a bodyguard. 372 00:27:44,310 --> 00:27:45,590 That's if you ask me, 373 00:27:45,730 --> 00:27:47,050 what's a mayor? 374 00:27:47,190 --> 00:27:47,870 He's a salesman. 375 00:27:47,970 --> 00:27:48,470 What's a president? 376 00:27:48,670 --> 00:27:49,430 He's a salesman. 377 00:27:49,730 --> 00:27:52,210 They're CEOs of bigger and smaller companies. 378 00:27:52,970 --> 00:27:54,510 You got to be the salesman. 379 00:27:54,690 --> 00:27:56,510 So what am I saying to people? 380 00:27:56,870 --> 00:28:02,190 If I've got like a fucking ring of six Sasquatches 381 00:28:02,190 --> 00:28:03,290 walking around me, 382 00:28:03,290 --> 00:28:09,190 you know, barring foreigners, tourists, or, or locals from, from reaching out and connecting 383 00:28:09,190 --> 00:28:14,890 with me personally. What am I saying? This country is insecure. And also, um, I'm, I don't, I want, 384 00:28:14,970 --> 00:28:20,090 I want distance between you and me. Those are the, those are the implicit messages that politicians 385 00:28:20,090 --> 00:28:26,430 send and they don't realize it. They literally do not realize it. Yeah. It happens in the U S as well. 386 00:28:26,430 --> 00:28:31,430 Oh yeah. All over the place. And I think it's some, for a lot of people, it becomes more a, 387 00:28:31,430 --> 00:28:33,650 just a point of privilege. 388 00:28:33,850 --> 00:28:35,870 They enjoy the show. 389 00:28:36,030 --> 00:28:38,090 They enjoy the parade. It's not even 390 00:28:38,090 --> 00:28:40,070 a lack of thought on 391 00:28:40,070 --> 00:28:42,070 what message am I sending to 392 00:28:42,070 --> 00:28:43,870 people around me. 393 00:28:43,950 --> 00:28:46,130 It's just, hey, I get all these perks and 394 00:28:46,130 --> 00:28:48,230 I don't have to pay for it. It's an ego trip, bro. 395 00:28:48,470 --> 00:28:49,310 I swear to God. 396 00:28:50,210 --> 00:28:52,050 Thank God I went through everything 397 00:28:52,050 --> 00:28:53,090 I went through before 398 00:28:53,090 --> 00:28:55,590 because it did 399 00:28:55,590 --> 00:28:58,070 make me realize what makes 400 00:28:58,070 --> 00:29:00,090 me who I am. And it's not 401 00:29:00,090 --> 00:29:10,750 money. It's not material goods. It's me. So that is the most politicians are defined by the seat, 402 00:29:10,750 --> 00:29:19,850 by the title. And I would say I really strive on doing the inverse. I want to be defined by myself 403 00:29:19,850 --> 00:29:25,170 in spite of a title. In fact, when people call me, hey, Mr. Mayor, I'm like, no, call me Meyer. 404 00:29:25,170 --> 00:29:31,850 two years in i'm still i'm still correcting people because in three years i'm no longer the mayor 405 00:29:31,850 --> 00:29:38,490 and i still want to be known or called the same thing so like keeping your feet grounded is 406 00:29:38,490 --> 00:29:46,370 critical because being in power and having you know the power of the pen and the budget and all 407 00:29:46,370 --> 00:29:55,150 that shit it can make anyone lose focus of what matters it's like being drunk you don't realize 408 00:29:55,150 --> 00:30:05,320 it but it temporary It like being high on some drug I was really listen man I was really afraid or scared of coming of sitting on this seat 409 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:06,660 because I thought everyone 410 00:30:06,660 --> 00:30:08,940 that goes into politics changes. 411 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:11,520 Everyone sits in a position 412 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:13,200 of power influence, they change. 413 00:30:13,620 --> 00:30:14,880 So I didn't want to change 414 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:16,740 and I was very scared of it. 415 00:30:17,500 --> 00:30:19,900 And well, a year and a half in, 416 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:21,260 I'm still very conscious about it, 417 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:22,700 but I'm no longer scared 418 00:30:22,700 --> 00:30:24,220 as I was initially 419 00:30:24,220 --> 00:30:29,640 because now I know what it's really about and it's not changing me. 420 00:30:29,740 --> 00:30:31,160 It's, I'm not going to let it change me. 421 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:35,000 And, and, and honestly, a lot of people just, 422 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:39,420 they come into politics for the ego trip. 423 00:30:39,700 --> 00:30:44,500 I'm telling you, it feeds, it feeds the soul to some people. 424 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:46,860 Sorry, I'm building a Lego while we're talking. 425 00:30:47,380 --> 00:30:48,640 No, you're good. You're good, man. 426 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:52,880 So talk to me then about, well, first of all, everything you said, 427 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:55,920 I really appreciate it because it's always my complaint about politicians. 428 00:30:56,160 --> 00:31:07,820 It's just that even if you come for the best of intentions, which I think many do, they end up being preoccupied by the distractions, the luxuries of being in politics. 429 00:31:08,140 --> 00:31:08,220 Yeah. 430 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:11,020 So talk to me a little bit about Bitcoin. 431 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:13,840 What was your journey? 432 00:31:13,980 --> 00:31:15,000 How did you find Bitcoin? 433 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:29,960 Well, listen, when I started my legal battles against the government of Panama, they had taken over all my bank accounts. 434 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:31,300 They froze my bank accounts. 435 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:37,000 I was basically – I lived what's called a civil death, right? 436 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:40,340 You're alive, but from a civilian standpoint, you're dead. 437 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:42,240 You can't wire money. 438 00:31:42,340 --> 00:31:43,700 You can't transact. 439 00:31:43,700 --> 00:31:45,960 You can't rent an apartment. 440 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:46,740 You can't do anything. 441 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:50,860 So I started discovering crypto assets. 442 00:31:51,060 --> 00:31:53,100 Bitcoin, this is 2014, 2015. 443 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,700 So Bitcoin was just like, just for nerds. 444 00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:00,760 People in forums were talking about it. 445 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:05,700 It wasn't so big on, not even on disrupt. 446 00:32:06,540 --> 00:32:09,340 Like you would go to the Tech March disrupt main stage. 447 00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:11,140 They were talking about Bitcoin, not then. 448 00:32:13,700 --> 00:32:31,120 Fast forward to today, I've been very inspired by how El Salvador has approached its disruption by using technology in its favor. 449 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:39,000 So adopting Bitcoin was one of the things that I think really made El Salvador stand out. 450 00:32:39,540 --> 00:32:42,040 And it was kind of like a no-brainer, if you ask me. 451 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:45,420 and I said well why are we doing this in Panama 452 00:32:45,420 --> 00:32:50,220 I first decided that I wanted to get involved 453 00:32:50,220 --> 00:32:53,000 to show the government that 454 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:57,440 what the city does is it doesn't mean that the entire country can do 455 00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:01,220 so at a city level I considered myself 456 00:33:01,220 --> 00:33:03,940 as a lab 457 00:33:03,940 --> 00:33:07,320 as a what you call it 458 00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:11,260 an incubator? a sandbox 459 00:33:11,260 --> 00:33:17,380 yeah yeah so i could test anything i wanted and then signal to the government what the realities 460 00:33:17,380 --> 00:33:23,200 were well don't go this way hey i got good results why don't you scale it up so that was a bit of the 461 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:34,980 mindset so i said um let's um let's start you know collecting taxes in bitcoin um and we got that 462 00:33:34,980 --> 00:33:46,940 passed through um the the the city council and it got approved um the idea is that the the underlying 463 00:33:46,940 --> 00:33:55,120 there's no underlying risk uh for the city it's not accumulating any bitcoin because what we the 464 00:33:55,120 --> 00:34:00,820 way we've been we've planned it out is you can pay with bitcoin but there's an intermediary that's 465 00:34:00,820 --> 00:34:03,580 just processing that and paying the city in dollars. 466 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:08,420 So all the city cares is to get its dollar value. 467 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:11,680 So we're not going to add any new risk to the city, 468 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:16,120 and that's how we were able to convince the councilman 469 00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:20,300 that there was zero risk because this risk was being assumed 470 00:34:20,300 --> 00:34:25,160 by the intermediary processor, which we already had. 471 00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:29,620 I had to explain to these people that we already use a processing platform 472 00:34:29,620 --> 00:34:33,400 for credit cards because, well, the city doesn't take credit cards. 473 00:34:33,540 --> 00:34:34,200 They take dollars. 474 00:34:34,720 --> 00:34:39,440 So you've got to convert credit card money into the dollars you receive for a wire transfer. 475 00:34:39,720 --> 00:34:41,100 This is the same exact thing. 476 00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:44,380 It's just a different credit card with a different denomination. 477 00:34:44,740 --> 00:34:46,920 That's all it is conceptually what you need to understand. 478 00:34:49,620 --> 00:34:53,420 And I remember the example I told them was Amex. 479 00:34:53,500 --> 00:34:54,780 I said, we don't take Amex. 480 00:34:55,240 --> 00:34:56,580 We just take Visa and MasterCard. 481 00:34:57,200 --> 00:34:58,500 I'm adding Amex. 482 00:34:58,560 --> 00:34:59,500 Do you have a problem with Amex? 483 00:34:59,620 --> 00:35:00,020 No. 484 00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:01,320 I said, well, this is XAMX. 485 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:01,940 That's all it is. 486 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:03,440 It's just a new method. 487 00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:04,140 That's all it is. 488 00:35:04,900 --> 00:35:12,200 Now, it's been almost a year since we enacted that rule. 489 00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:27,280 And we still haven't been able to put it into action because the central government is so conservative that they want us to really get all the itty-gritty bits and pieces and checks and balances done. 490 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:32,060 So it is taking a lot longer than what I would want. 491 00:35:33,140 --> 00:35:38,480 This is, again, as I say, there's only so much you can do as mayor of a capital city. 492 00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:42,080 The government is not against this. 493 00:35:42,140 --> 00:35:43,180 It's just very conservative. 494 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:56,480 The main goal of the government of Panama is to stabilize and guarantee security to investments and investors that come to this country and for local investors as well. 495 00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:21,980 And I got to say, I got to hand it off to them. The government has done a really good job at stabilizing the economy. Really fucking good job. I was surprised that last year, in spite of protests, we were able to grow around 4.2%. I was expecting something around 3%. So this year's shaping up to be even more promising. 496 00:36:21,980 --> 00:36:44,440 So Panama was like the number two country in terms of economic growth. I think number one was Dominican Republic. By this year, I expect Panama to be number one. And hopefully, hopefully, we can get some of these policies in place so that I don't want us to just be number one in terms of traditional economic growth. 497 00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:50,040 I want us to signal to be the birthplace of technology for Latin American ecosystems. 498 00:36:50,860 --> 00:36:54,360 I want this to be the bridge between Panama, Silicon Valley, and Tel Aviv. 499 00:36:55,340 --> 00:36:57,080 That's my vision. 500 00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:05,780 Because if you really want a society to progress, if you really want a leap, I don't want progress. 501 00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:07,300 I want leaps. 502 00:37:07,820 --> 00:37:08,860 I want transformation. 503 00:37:08,860 --> 00:37:15,720 because progress means anticipated and projected growth over time. 504 00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:17,140 We don't have time. 505 00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:19,400 There are livelihoods at stake. 506 00:37:19,540 --> 00:37:21,360 Some of these people don't have time. 507 00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:28,640 So I need us to grow faster, stronger, quicker, and be a lot more competitive. 508 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:33,060 That's a bit of the Silicon Valley in me that's still there, 509 00:37:33,220 --> 00:37:35,140 where I'm still aggressive, 510 00:37:35,140 --> 00:37:40,560 and I still feel like I'm competing with the startup that's about to steal my idea 511 00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:43,620 or imitate me or execute better than me. 512 00:37:43,980 --> 00:37:45,020 So I still got that in me. 513 00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:46,000 Yeah. 514 00:37:46,300 --> 00:37:51,660 So is your hope then that that would be a launching pad for much bigger things, right? 515 00:37:51,660 --> 00:37:54,920 So if you look at El Salvador, for example, they're accumulating Bitcoin, 516 00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:57,820 retaining a strategic Bitcoin reserve. 517 00:37:58,660 --> 00:38:01,400 I know they've had something with the IMF, 518 00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:04,720 and so they maybe pulled back the legal tender law. 519 00:38:04,720 --> 00:38:14,200 But like, is your hope that over the coming five years, 10 years, that Panama would be like a Bitcoin hub where people are paying with Bitcoin, accepting Bitcoin? 520 00:38:15,100 --> 00:38:17,180 The nation has found, you know. 521 00:38:17,860 --> 00:38:24,860 100% and not out of legal obligation, but just financial feasibility. 522 00:38:25,460 --> 00:38:28,880 People would want to receive money in Bitcoin. 523 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:37,600 so what we do what we want is for that channel to exist as a possibility right now there is no 524 00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:43,760 possibility because it's not legally recognized so all we want is for legal recognition 525 00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:54,140 uh to this form of of for this asset and this form of payment it will signal to the right people 526 00:38:54,140 --> 00:38:58,640 the kind of economy the kind of country you're building the kind of guarantees that you're 527 00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:02,400 looking to do because one of the things i appreciate about bitcoin is that you can't 528 00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:14,240 control it right um and and for me as as as as a man as a man in a position of power i try to wield 529 00:39:14,240 --> 00:39:22,160 as least power or control as possible i'd like to build systems that are self um that are both 530 00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:34,320 that's that are how do you how do you call like uh when something is like vetted or or controlled 531 00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:41,840 by the system itself it's just like bitcoin it's a community right yes yeah i don't like a system 532 00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:50,540 where one single entity or a duopoly can have control right i've even taken poison pills myself 533 00:39:50,540 --> 00:39:57,680 of diluting the influence or powers that the mayor can have. 534 00:39:58,100 --> 00:40:04,460 That way, no matter who comes, it's the people that have the power. 535 00:40:04,940 --> 00:40:09,580 And because the people want this, it's that which the mayor has to do, 536 00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:11,180 not the other way around. 537 00:40:11,380 --> 00:40:12,580 And that is very common. 538 00:40:13,140 --> 00:40:15,920 That kind of dichotomy, not just in Latin America, 539 00:40:15,980 --> 00:40:17,440 but you're seeing it all over the world, 540 00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:23,880 where ultimately, you know, they beg people for their voter confidence for their vote. 541 00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:30,620 And then they have all this power and then people have to beg them to do the things that they want. 542 00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:38,260 It's just some fundamental policymaking aspects that I think have to be, 543 00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:46,240 you've got to lay the groundwork from today for that kind of economy over the next 20 to 40 years. 544 00:40:46,240 --> 00:41:03,180 That's the kind of thing. That's the kind of way I think. So it's interesting you say that because one of my so obviously I think what Nayib Bukele has done in El Salvador is tremendous. I think overall, you know, I'd give him an A plus and obviously he's a Bitcoiner. I appreciate his his love of Bitcoin. 545 00:41:03,180 --> 00:41:09,140 My concern with El Salvador has always been, what if Bukele is gone? 546 00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:17,340 And is Bitcoin really embedded in the culture or is it because they have one very strong proponent at the top? 547 00:41:17,720 --> 00:41:23,580 It seems to me like what you're partially trying to accomplish in Panama is how can we just embed this in the culture? 548 00:41:23,940 --> 00:41:26,560 It doesn't require a strong mayoral presence. 549 00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:29,740 It doesn't require a president who's all about Bitcoin. 550 00:41:29,740 --> 00:41:33,740 But people begin to adopt it because there's no friction. 551 00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:35,440 It's easy. 552 00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:39,720 They don't have to worry about the inflationary risk of more money being printed globally. 553 00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:40,500 Yes. 554 00:41:40,540 --> 00:41:43,120 That to me, it seems very compelling about Panama. 555 00:41:43,700 --> 00:41:50,640 So you touch on something that very few people have mentioned about this country. 556 00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:52,080 And I've mentioned it myself. 557 00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:56,960 I appreciate El Salvador. 558 00:41:56,960 --> 00:42:05,000 I admire enormously what Bukele and his team has done over the last years in his tenure. 559 00:42:05,580 --> 00:42:06,740 It's really admirable. 560 00:42:07,240 --> 00:42:13,360 We never, El Salvador was not, El Salvador, those were words you would never say. 561 00:42:13,720 --> 00:42:13,880 Okay. 562 00:42:14,420 --> 00:42:18,140 It's very common for us to think and talk about El Salvador now. 563 00:42:18,740 --> 00:42:22,060 And most, a lot of politicians are even imitating him. 564 00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:25,280 Now, the problem is it's a risk matter. 565 00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:30,700 As you said, what if El Salvador no longer has Bucati? 566 00:42:31,740 --> 00:42:35,260 Shit, we don't know what that El Salvador looks like right now. 567 00:42:36,580 --> 00:42:40,640 And that's what I try to explain to investors when they consider Panama. 568 00:42:40,700 --> 00:42:45,480 I was just in a very important meeting with billboards. 569 00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:52,460 And I explained to them, Panama is Panama no matter who the president is. 570 00:42:52,980 --> 00:42:54,220 And that's what's amazing. 571 00:42:54,220 --> 00:43:02,760 In fact, what I admire a bit about this economy, this country, is how resilient it is in spite of bad leadership. 572 00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:09,140 Like, what if we had a great operating system similar to El Salvador? 573 00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:13,180 Like, we have amazing hardware, infrastructure. 574 00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:19,380 The financial hub of Latin America is in Panama. 575 00:43:19,380 --> 00:43:32,880 In fact, most people don't know this, but almost every company in El Salvador or startup that works with Bitcoin has a parent company that's based in Panama. 576 00:43:33,860 --> 00:43:34,880 No way. 577 00:43:35,060 --> 00:43:35,200 Yeah. 578 00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:37,020 The reason is very simple. 579 00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:49,160 The banks in El Salvador won't work with Bitcoin companies because their correspondent banks in the US won't allow it. 580 00:43:49,380 --> 00:43:58,260 in panama right they you can't like we have you know this is one of the things again i say 581 00:43:58,260 --> 00:44:05,380 panama is a great product with terrible marketing and uh and i think um el salvador is freaking 582 00:44:05,380 --> 00:44:12,260 amazing at marketing because this has been a fact for a while that every el salvador company has like 583 00:44:12,260 --> 00:44:17,220 a pair company in panama they receive their dollars in panama then they wire them to el salvador 584 00:44:17,220 --> 00:44:21,920 right so because you have a bank and infrastructure here you have the liquidity 585 00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:26,840 the risk is kind of minimized for the amount of transactions that you're hosting a day 586 00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:31,840 um and then you have companies in panama they're doing amazing things especially 587 00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:38,000 considering the infrastructure you have you have a bank called tower bank and if you ask me that 588 00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:43,700 bank is really doing um they're going to be the next level bank of this country because they're 589 00:44:43,700 --> 00:44:50,000 investing whereas every other bank is still thinking in dollars a tower bank 590 00:44:50,000 --> 00:45:06,170 is thinking in crypto not just Bitcoin but they open accounts from an app immediately and then you have a wallet within the app So they not going to make you download an app Like the banking app is the wallet 591 00:45:07,510 --> 00:45:12,150 So it's really interesting the way that they've executed all this. 592 00:45:12,270 --> 00:45:13,810 And I think they're onto something. 593 00:45:14,270 --> 00:45:15,150 They're onto something. 594 00:45:16,410 --> 00:45:17,490 That's my impression. 595 00:45:17,850 --> 00:45:20,270 So at the Bitcoin way, we are all about, 596 00:45:20,330 --> 00:45:22,070 we train people to take self-custody, right? 597 00:45:22,070 --> 00:45:25,350 Like we don't want banks to like custody or your generational wealth. 598 00:45:25,550 --> 00:45:34,170 However, one of the things that has made our Plan B residency program in Panama so seamless is the fact that you can go to Tower Bank. 599 00:45:34,370 --> 00:45:37,010 You can set up an account very quickly, very easily. 600 00:45:37,310 --> 00:45:39,810 There's not a bunch of red tape, not a lot of bureaucracy. 601 00:45:40,250 --> 00:45:40,350 Yeah. 602 00:45:40,610 --> 00:45:46,790 And you can go move Bitcoin within the country in that way if you need to for a particular purpose. 603 00:45:46,790 --> 00:45:49,990 And you can see your balance alongside of your fiat. 604 00:45:49,990 --> 00:45:50,470 That's right. 605 00:45:50,770 --> 00:45:51,270 That's right. 606 00:45:51,270 --> 00:45:59,110 You know, and like having that integration isn't like we're all about like, hey, separate, you know, money and state. 607 00:45:59,290 --> 00:46:04,790 But having the flexibility of that integration is incredibly valuable to some people. 608 00:46:04,910 --> 00:46:12,510 And we actually have a guy there right now who is like he's he's talked about he's he's getting his residency like this week. 609 00:46:12,510 --> 00:46:20,470 and the way that he was able to migrate his wealth from Australia into Panama is made so much simpler 610 00:46:20,470 --> 00:46:27,710 because of the infrastructure that the crazy thing is even in the US, they're still trying 611 00:46:27,710 --> 00:46:31,470 to figure out what the hell to do about Bitcoin. You know, if you're a bank, like you have to get 612 00:46:31,470 --> 00:46:37,850 all these, you know, like this tape is just crazy. Oh, it's it's insane. And the regulatory 613 00:46:37,850 --> 00:46:42,990 regulatory guidance has scared banks away. I don't get excited about banks accepting Bitcoin 614 00:46:42,990 --> 00:46:48,050 because I don't want them to hold my Bitcoin, but it's going to be a point of friction if banks 615 00:46:48,050 --> 00:46:53,890 can't do that. And it sounds to me like Panama basically just says, Hey, live your life, you know, 616 00:46:53,910 --> 00:46:57,830 figure it out. Like if you, if this is what you want to do, if this is what a bank needs to do to 617 00:46:57,830 --> 00:47:04,690 serve its customers, then you can do that. So, so one of the things, one of the things that, 618 00:47:04,690 --> 00:47:12,750 um so i'm very good friends with the ceo of of the bank um and one of the things that he did was 619 00:47:12,750 --> 00:47:24,310 um they were about to do a bitcoin law and we all said don't just don't touch it 620 00:47:24,310 --> 00:47:32,150 oversee everything we're doing guys act of transparency um with the superintendencia 621 00:47:32,150 --> 00:47:39,130 Arancos. It's like the treasury of sorts. But just watch it and don't over-regulate something 622 00:47:39,130 --> 00:47:45,850 you don't understand yet. Don't assume there's risk that doesn't actually exist. And I think 623 00:47:45,850 --> 00:47:53,550 that's what's made them quite successful is that they haven't been over-regulated at all. 624 00:47:54,110 --> 00:48:00,510 So we haven't created a law. And if you ask me, that's a benefit because I wouldn't want, 625 00:48:00,510 --> 00:48:28,930 I personally would not want a Bitcoin law now, not in its inception. I first want to see how people use it. I first want to understand what people understand by it. And then we can talk about making a law. What are the problems? Because what are laws? First of all, the fundamentals of our economy is freedom, right? It's a free economy. 626 00:48:28,930 --> 00:48:37,050 so laws are restrictive typically typically so what do i need a law for you to restrict what 627 00:48:37,050 --> 00:48:41,830 specifically why are you restricting there's nothing to restrict so i don't need a law now 628 00:48:41,830 --> 00:48:48,270 also we're not asking for promotion you can have a law to incentivize but we don't we're not asking 629 00:48:48,270 --> 00:48:53,210 for that so any law that would come would be on the way of restrictions and we don't want these 630 00:48:53,210 --> 00:49:00,310 restrictions not now not before we understand what it is how people behave around it in this 631 00:49:00,310 --> 00:49:06,790 economy we've seen we know what it is but theoretically for this as a as from a micro 632 00:49:06,790 --> 00:49:12,250 economic standpoint you don't want to start with regulation start with innovation then you can bring 633 00:49:12,250 --> 00:49:17,470 in regulation but not the other way around geez dude that's yeah that's it i mean you end up 634 00:49:17,470 --> 00:49:22,570 killing the economy the opportunity yeah i find it ironic because in the u.s there are a lot of 635 00:49:22,570 --> 00:49:27,470 Bitcoiners who are cheering on a bunch of crypto Bitcoin related legislation. And I'm like, guys, 636 00:49:27,750 --> 00:49:31,590 we don't need the government to tell us what to do. Like the whole point of Bitcoin is let people 637 00:49:31,590 --> 00:49:38,110 operate independently. So I think that's going to, as long as Panama can hold off on that, 638 00:49:38,170 --> 00:49:42,730 I think it's going to serve incredibly well. And back to a point we were discussing before, 639 00:49:42,910 --> 00:49:47,990 the longer they hold off, the more embedded it gets into the culture, the more people get used 640 00:49:47,990 --> 00:49:53,050 to interacting with Bitcoin through their bank in self-custody, however they choose to do that, 641 00:49:53,590 --> 00:50:00,310 I think it makes it much harder. It makes you resistant to a future politician coming in and 642 00:50:00,310 --> 00:50:05,930 trying to screw it up because it's just too late. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. 643 00:50:06,770 --> 00:50:15,510 That's exactly right. Amen, man. And until then, we depend on people like you to promote 644 00:50:15,510 --> 00:50:22,550 the use of Bitcoin and just grow organically the ecosystem, organically. 645 00:50:23,370 --> 00:50:27,230 Yeah. I'll tell you what, man, we're sending a lot of Bitcoiners your way. Like I said, 646 00:50:27,230 --> 00:50:30,790 we've got a cohort of 50 down there now. We've onboarded a lot of people through our Plan B 647 00:50:30,790 --> 00:50:37,530 program. And I mean, we've had a lot of countries try to figure out where to tell people to go. 648 00:50:37,890 --> 00:50:43,770 And for all the reasons you can imagine, Panama came out at the top. I would be curious, 649 00:50:43,770 --> 00:50:48,450 is how would you, how would you put, you know, you said, you know, if you're, you know, you're 650 00:50:48,450 --> 00:50:52,690 the mayor of Panama city, if you're the president of Panama, I mean, your job is you're a salesperson 651 00:50:52,690 --> 00:50:58,490 at a, at a different level. I used to be in sales. So I don't view that as a negative thing. I think 652 00:50:58,490 --> 00:51:03,070 a lot of people hear that and they think snake oil salesman kind of thing. How would you pitch 653 00:51:03,070 --> 00:51:08,950 Panama? So if you've got someone in Australia, who's like, I'm getting taxed because I live on 654 00:51:08,950 --> 00:51:13,430 the fourth floor of my building and I have a view and they charge me a view tax. If you're in the 655 00:51:13,430 --> 00:51:19,150 UK. Yeah. You're getting arrested for social media posting. Yeah. That's what I know. That's 656 00:51:19,150 --> 00:51:26,910 what's like, what's Panama's like, how do you, how do you pitch it? Um, it's Miami without a visa 657 00:51:26,910 --> 00:51:33,350 and fewer taxes. It's not, it's not a bad pitch. That's what, that's what I've heard. 658 00:51:33,350 --> 00:51:36,890 The conversation going. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've heard actually that was the first, 659 00:51:37,010 --> 00:51:41,230 this guy who I told you about who was, who escaped Australia. He said it's like Miami, 660 00:51:41,230 --> 00:51:48,570 but uh but it's cleaner it's uh it's got all the same amenities everything you would expect of you 661 00:51:48,570 --> 00:51:56,150 know like a western city and i don't have to take pictures of my receipts because my business is 662 00:51:56,150 --> 00:52:02,190 required to do that for tax purposes and all of the basically all the the bullshit that takes place 663 00:52:02,190 --> 00:52:09,370 in a typical bureaucratic yeah setup man that sounds about right um listen ultimately dude i 664 00:52:09,370 --> 00:52:14,870 I think Panama is poised to really become this. 665 00:52:15,050 --> 00:52:18,250 I want it to be a blend between Miami and Singapore. 666 00:52:18,490 --> 00:52:19,470 It's going to be something different. 667 00:52:20,270 --> 00:52:24,930 What it needs is to maintain its course. 668 00:52:24,930 --> 00:52:29,250 If it just maintains its course over the next three years, 669 00:52:29,710 --> 00:52:35,450 it's signaling stability in all the right places. 670 00:52:36,270 --> 00:52:38,890 You want disruption in other places. 671 00:52:39,370 --> 00:52:44,530 not when it comes to public policy, taxes, economy. 672 00:52:47,690 --> 00:52:51,270 And, you know, once you've got that stabilized with the right leadership, 673 00:52:51,270 --> 00:52:54,190 I think this is the kind of country that would attract organically. 674 00:52:54,190 --> 00:53:00,230 It would attract the smartest, the most, you know, 675 00:53:00,350 --> 00:53:02,250 you need intellectual capital. 676 00:53:03,050 --> 00:53:04,010 You need it. 677 00:53:04,450 --> 00:53:09,350 And I don't know how many politicians actually put mind into this, 678 00:53:09,370 --> 00:53:20,450 But if you don't grow your intellectual pool, then your intellectual capital as a country, no matter what your GDP is, it's not sustainable. 679 00:53:21,770 --> 00:53:29,270 So just so happens to be some of the smartest people in the world happen to also use Bitcoin. 680 00:53:30,330 --> 00:53:30,930 Yeah. 681 00:53:30,930 --> 00:53:48,170 So you've got the, you're attracting the best because you've got the climate, I mean, both in terms of weather, but also in terms of like the tech hub, the innovation, and you're now the place where people can say, I want to quit paying so much in taxes. 682 00:53:48,490 --> 00:53:52,610 I want to have a place where I can go where I know I'm going to be mostly left alone. 683 00:53:52,730 --> 00:53:57,870 And I'm not going to have to worry about some regulation coming down and all of a sudden I can't use my Bitcoin anymore. 684 00:53:57,870 --> 00:54:00,670 A hundred percent. That's a hundred percent. 685 00:54:00,930 --> 00:54:04,130 You know what people want for people with money? 686 00:54:04,470 --> 00:54:07,110 Do you know what they want from their politicians to be left alone? 687 00:54:07,990 --> 00:54:08,990 Simple as that. 688 00:54:09,590 --> 00:54:10,530 Simple as that. 689 00:54:10,970 --> 00:54:13,670 And this is what that country guarantees you. 690 00:54:14,030 --> 00:54:17,590 And if you have a family, listen, this is you. 691 00:54:17,730 --> 00:54:20,350 You can build a nice lifestyle for your family here. 692 00:54:21,510 --> 00:54:26,490 You know, you got schools, you got parks, you got security is the most important part. 693 00:54:26,490 --> 00:54:34,630 the security like we never had a security problem to solve for so we've been really lucky in that 694 00:54:34,630 --> 00:54:41,450 sense the kind of people that immigrate to panama move to panama they're seeking that that oasis 695 00:54:41,450 --> 00:54:48,030 that lifestyle um so as the country grows with foreign foreigners that move to panama it's 696 00:54:48,030 --> 00:54:53,890 growing in the right kind of people also um so we've been very lucky in that sense it's probably 697 00:54:53,890 --> 00:55:00,730 the greatest the greatest subsidy that this country has to its operation is security amazing 698 00:55:00,730 --> 00:55:05,290 yeah i've heard it's it's clean it's safe you don't have to worry about do you often come to 699 00:55:05,290 --> 00:55:11,370 panama i i tell you what man i have not i need to get down there but our team is there all the time 700 00:55:11,370 --> 00:55:16,830 okay it's it's only a matter of time before i make the trip okay cool so when you do when you 701 00:55:16,830 --> 00:55:21,830 do come you let me know man i will i will i'd love to love to catch up well hey let's round for home 702 00:55:21,830 --> 00:55:26,030 here because we're at the top of the hour. I think I sent this to you, but I don't know if you had a 703 00:55:26,030 --> 00:55:30,750 chance to look at it. My last question is always, what is an unpopular opinion that you have and 704 00:55:30,750 --> 00:55:36,370 you get bonus points if you offend Bitcoiners with it? Yeah. Unpopular opinion. 705 00:55:36,370 --> 00:55:49,230 i mean i would say 706 00:55:49,230 --> 00:55:53,970 sometimes 707 00:55:53,970 --> 00:56:04,630 you can't consult too much um you you can't make decisions based only or or 708 00:56:04,630 --> 00:56:10,370 based on people's or democratic point of view. 709 00:56:10,370 --> 00:56:14,230 That is, if you wait on democracy to take effect, 710 00:56:14,470 --> 00:56:21,570 then you may miss out on timing and necessity. 711 00:56:21,790 --> 00:56:25,410 Sometimes you need to act on intuition 712 00:56:25,410 --> 00:56:29,490 and always listen to people. 713 00:56:30,010 --> 00:56:32,690 Listen to your audience, listen to your users, 714 00:56:32,690 --> 00:56:37,130 to your clients, to your constituents, you can always correct course. 715 00:56:37,650 --> 00:56:39,170 What you cannot do is not do. 716 00:56:39,850 --> 00:56:40,530 You've got to do. 717 00:56:40,850 --> 00:56:41,630 You've got to decide. 718 00:56:41,730 --> 00:56:42,270 You've got to act. 719 00:56:42,370 --> 00:56:45,730 Sometimes that makes some people, like they call Bukele many times, 720 00:56:45,990 --> 00:56:46,750 like a dictator. 721 00:56:48,630 --> 00:56:53,570 But I think when it comes to leadership, I think what we need to do 722 00:56:53,570 --> 00:57:01,270 is to act and have the humility to recognize when we have failed 723 00:57:01,270 --> 00:57:04,890 and correct course based on people's reactions. 724 00:57:05,530 --> 00:57:07,370 That's the one thing you got to always have, 725 00:57:07,410 --> 00:57:10,890 that humility to listen to people, your clients. 726 00:57:11,470 --> 00:57:12,870 Hey, you want to run a successful business, 727 00:57:12,970 --> 00:57:14,530 don't forget to listen to your clients. 728 00:57:15,090 --> 00:57:16,030 Listen to your constituents. 729 00:57:17,990 --> 00:57:21,770 But your intuition, you got to act on it immediately. 730 00:57:22,430 --> 00:57:24,430 And I'll leave you with this. 731 00:57:26,490 --> 00:57:28,650 There was a kid, so today's the first day of school 732 00:57:28,650 --> 00:57:30,230 for the school year in Panama. 733 00:57:30,990 --> 00:57:33,930 A kid asked me, how do you make the right decisions? 734 00:57:34,270 --> 00:57:36,110 I just stood there and I waited. 735 00:57:36,370 --> 00:57:39,470 And then I kind of just answered something that was quite interesting. 736 00:57:40,110 --> 00:57:41,710 I'm kind of using it for the first time now. 737 00:57:43,150 --> 00:57:47,530 I don't make the right decisions. 738 00:57:48,030 --> 00:57:49,390 I first decide. 739 00:57:50,890 --> 00:57:53,130 I make a decision and then make it right. 740 00:57:55,190 --> 00:58:00,110 And I think this is very important as an operating system for any human being. 741 00:58:00,230 --> 00:58:01,670 is we got to always act. 742 00:58:01,770 --> 00:58:03,430 When you have an opportunity in front of you, 743 00:58:03,670 --> 00:58:04,770 you got to decide. 744 00:58:05,030 --> 00:58:05,750 You got to act. 745 00:58:05,990 --> 00:58:07,590 You can always find a way to make it better, 746 00:58:07,810 --> 00:58:09,150 make it right if you screw it up, 747 00:58:09,190 --> 00:58:10,890 but you got to act, right? 748 00:58:11,970 --> 00:58:12,670 Well said. 749 00:58:13,310 --> 00:58:14,030 All righty, man. 750 00:58:14,130 --> 00:58:15,530 Hey, why don't you give people a handoff? 751 00:58:15,590 --> 00:58:17,010 Is there a place that they can find you? 752 00:58:17,090 --> 00:58:20,150 I'm obviously going to go learn about our Plan B program 753 00:58:20,150 --> 00:58:22,770 if they want to get moving on toward Panama, 754 00:58:22,970 --> 00:58:24,230 but any place you'd send them. 755 00:58:24,910 --> 00:58:25,090 Yeah. 756 00:58:25,190 --> 00:58:25,970 Hey, guys, listen. 757 00:58:26,570 --> 00:58:28,650 I manage my own social media. 758 00:58:28,650 --> 00:58:37,530 So you can tweet at me over X or on Instagram, and I respond directly to DMs personally. 759 00:58:38,010 --> 00:58:45,790 Any questions you might have about Panama, happy to be your mayor and answer anything you might have. 760 00:58:46,170 --> 00:58:47,110 Really excited. 761 00:58:47,250 --> 00:58:51,210 Thank you very much, Michael, for doing this and for promoting our country. 762 00:58:51,770 --> 00:58:53,450 I really hope to see you soon here, man. 763 00:58:53,990 --> 00:58:54,390 Absolutely. 764 00:58:54,690 --> 00:58:55,690 I appreciate you being here, Meyer. 765 00:58:55,770 --> 00:58:56,150 Thank you. 766 00:58:56,330 --> 00:58:56,890 Take care, dude. 767 00:58:57,270 --> 00:58:57,470 Cheers. 768 00:58:57,470 --> 00:59:21,530 And that's a wrap again. Hope you enjoyed my conversation with Meyer. I thought this was a very fun one. Just awesome to see that there is so much hope in the future for this nation of Panama that we are so excited about. It's a freedom loving place. I would encourage everyone to check out our Plan B residency. You can do that by going to the Bitcoin way dot com slash podcast. Schedule a free 30 minute consult with a member of our team. 769 00:59:21,530 --> 00:59:30,730 We would love to walk you through what that process looks like, as well as if you need help with Bitcoin in proper self custody, online privacy, setting up a privacy phone. 770 00:59:30,830 --> 00:59:33,570 We have a suite of self sovereignty solutions for you. 771 00:59:33,750 --> 00:59:36,390 Again, it's the Bitcoin way dot com slash podcast. 772 00:59:36,890 --> 00:59:38,030 Do me a huge favor. 773 00:59:38,170 --> 00:59:44,910 If you're enjoying the show, if you like this episode, give us a like, subscribe, comment, pass it along to someone who you think might be interested in it. 774 00:59:44,950 --> 00:59:46,670 We would really, really appreciate that. 775 00:59:46,670 --> 00:59:52,030 And until next time, stay safe, stay sovereign, and remember the yield on Bitcoin is freedom.