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All right, guys, thank you so much for tuning back in this week.

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I have a very exciting interview partner in front of me.

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His name is Betten, Daniel Betten.

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Hello, Daniel. Welcome to the show.

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Good to be here, JC.

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HashrateUp, hardware sales, advisory, hosting, and site brokerage.

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Find new and use ASIC deals through the website and the Telegram channel below.

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Make smarter decisions with HashrateUp.

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You are managing partner at CH4 Capital.

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You have been around the block.

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You know, your name has been in my LinkedIn feed for a very long while.

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I just want to put our interview into a little bit of context quickly.

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I'll share my screen for those watching.

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We are looking at a very, very interesting time in Bitcoin mining right now.

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Something that we can also talk about and how it impacts CH4 Capital and mining on vented gas.

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we are currently 96 blocks too slow and the average block time is at 12 minutes we're recording at

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block 933883 and we've I just did a video on this but this is a very historic time because not often

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have we seen you know six difficulty adjustments downwards in a row and the next one is looking to

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become the hefty probably plus 10% downwards somewhere,

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which is very, very rare in our industry.

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But Daniel, with that being said,

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I want to talk to you today about vented gas mining

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and what the difference is compared to flare gas mining

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and giving my audience a bit of context.

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So what would you say to start off is the biggest misconception

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about vented gas mining that you have to battle on a daily basis?

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Well, most people don't know what it is because it's not a term that's used a lot.

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You hear the term flare gas mining a lot, and that's pretty straightforward.

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That means generally you're in an oil and gas field,

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and when the oil company hits oil, they often hit gas as well.

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And when it's too far from a gas pipeline or it's not productive

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to do something with the gas, they simply burn it in something called a flare stack.

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And there's multiple issues with that. One is that it's a tremendous waste of energy,

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but the second is that it doesn't burn it completely. So in other words,

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it's predominantly methane, and that methane still goes about 9% of it into the atmosphere

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completely unburnt, which is an environmental hazard. It's a greenhouse gas, which is 84 times

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more warming than carbon dioxide over a 20-year period, but it also contributes, according to the

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UN to around about a million premature deaths every year. So it's basically not something you

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want more of in the air. If you're standing next to a gas stove, you'd rather the pilot light was

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lit and that gas was heating up your food than it was unlit, poisoning people. So that's flare gas.

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And so there's tremendous value and a lot of Bitcoin mining companies, Cruzeau, now Nidig,

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and many other companies, Unblock, et cetera, have been going around and using flare gas as a source of power

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because, number one, it's very cheap.

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It decentralizes the Bitcoin network.

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It's more capital intense up front.

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So that's a form that people in Bitcoin mining are more familiar with.

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When you say vented gas, though, basically in the oil and gas industry, that's illegal in most countries to vent it.

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There's rules, very strict regulations that you have to flare it.

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occasionally that doesn't happen. In some countries, it doesn't happen. In Venezuela,

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we know that there's a lot of gas from the oil and gas industry that just goes directly into

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the atmosphere, completely unburnt. Tremendous waste of energy, but an incredible pollutant at

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the same time. But vented gas and flare gas doesn't just exist on oil fields. It also exists

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on landfills. So that's what we're interested in. So wherever you have organic waste that decay

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anaerobically, so in other words, it's being compressed, it doesn't get access to air,

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you get these things called methanotropes, and they're little bacteria, as the name would

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suggest, the byproduct of their digestion of that organic waste is they release methane.

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And a modern landfill, which has been around for 10 years plus, releases huge amounts of biogas,

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roughly 50-50 carbon dioxide and methane. So again, that's the same problem as you have in

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the oil and gas industry, where you have a potential source of power that is being vented

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into the atmosphere as pollution. Now, the difference in landfills, there's a couple of

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differences, but one of the key differences is they don't tend to be as regulated around the

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world, interestingly enough. So if you're in the US or Canada or Australia, New Zealand, Europe,

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then you will be regulated that you have to do something with the methane.

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You have to, in many cases, destroy it.

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And so a lot of those landfill owners, they already have flare stacks in place.

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Flare stacks are expensive.

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They can cost a million dollars.

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They cost a lot of money in maintaining them every year,

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and they don't do anything productive.

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So you guessed it, in countries in the world where it's not mandated,

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you have to destroy that methane.

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No one does anything because it's an expense.

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and so in places like southeast asia or parts of latin america or africa or india or pakistan

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etc you have landfills so huge swathes of the world where the emissions from these landfills

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just simply goes directly into the air completely unburnt and it's one of the top three contributors

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to methane emissions globally which is a huge problem because united nations has told us that

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methane reduction, it could be our strongest lever to reduce climate change in the next 25 years. So

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it's worldwide recognized as a massive, massive problem. And methane levels are increasing globally.

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And one of the big contributors to that is waste landfills. So what we do is we aim to

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solve an environmental problem, but also a wasted energy problem at the same time.

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So for the landfill owner, it's great for them because they basically get to turn pollution

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into a source of power and they get money for it with no capital expense on their side.

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So it's a sweet deal.

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It's like basically the deal is, would you like to have more money, have an environmental

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liability taken off your hands and you're not going to have to pay anything?

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It's a pretty good deal.

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For the Bitcoin mining company, it's capital intensive.

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So they have to invest in generators and gas capture and collection systems and purify

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that gas.

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So it's much more capital intensive than just simply connecting to the grid.

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So why would any Bitcoin mining company want to do that?

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Well, same reason any Bitcoin mining company chases stranded energy anywhere, and that's because they can get a low cost of power.

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So in many cases, they can get one cent per kilowatt hour from the landfill owner or less.

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So they do the equation, they do the math, and they go, yeah, we're going to have to invest a lot more up front, but then we get a really cheap cost of power.

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So we can lock in a long power purchase agreement.

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By the time that we've amortized our Bitcoin mining equipment, our gensets and our gas purification, we're actually going to be sitting pretty well through two or three halving cycles into the future, which is, I think, the way of the future where Bitcoin mining companies either become vertically integrated energy companies or else they have access to long term energy agreements at a very low cost of power.

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They sink the capital up front, they amortize it, they depreciate the asset, and then they're more economically resilient.

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So it has some big advantages to the Bitcoin mining company as well.

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And the wonderful byproduct of all this is that it's tidying up the environment.

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So it's a wonderful story for the Bitcoin mining industry as a whole, which, as you know very well, was under attack for a very long time.

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And one of the best ways to remove an attack vector is to snip off the arrowhead.

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And there is no better way to snip off the arrowhead of all these attacks on Bitcoin on ESG grounds than if Bitcoin was actually mitigating more emissions than it was supposedly creating.

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And this is possible.

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We worked out that 35 landfills, you could take the entire Bitcoin network carbon negative, which would be an extraordinary achievement, be the first industry in the world to have gone carbon negative without offsets.

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And it's something that's actually achievable.

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It's not easy. It's going to take a lot of work, a lot of proof of work, a lot of capital investment, a lot of identification of landfills and creating marriages between Bitcoin mining companies and landfall owners.

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But it's possible. 35 is a feasible, it's a stretch, but it's not an impossible number. You're not talking about 300 or 3000 or 30,000 landfills.

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Yeah.

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Isn't Bitcoin mining already, I don't know if that's changed,

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already the most sustainable industry that we have worldwide,

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according to our conclusion?

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Yes, it is.

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That we know of that's been measured, that's correct.

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Yes, it's 52% sustainably powered.

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There is no industry in the world which we've measured

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which comes anywhere close to that because most industries are grid so they dependent on whatever the grid mix is which generally is about 40 sustainable energy 60 fossil fuel

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So Bitcoin, because it can go off grid,

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has the ability to go much, much higher

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in its sustainable energy use.

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And generally you go off grid

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because you get cheaper power.

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And in most cases, not all, but in most,

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that stranded off grid power

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is going to come from hydro or solar or wind

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or flare gas or in some cases landfall gas,

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generally some sustainable or renewable source.

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I mean, we've talked about, yeah, I mean, you've said landfall gas,

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a problem, it's very hard probably also to pinpoint

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how much exactly is being vented in which countries.

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You can probably use satellite imagery to get an idea.

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but I can only imagine you know in parts of the world where data collection is not on par with

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a Europe or Canada or US or a similar country it's going to be very difficult to pinpoint all

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of these sites and so thinking about it that way the only solution to that problem is those

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incentives right of having that extra revenue and rather utilizing that gas it what you what you

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said made me think that especially now with this ai craze and um the way hash price is developing

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that's why i like these low hash price environments right um because first of all i'm really interested

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in how much sets am i mining right and that's going up when difficulty goes down but you can

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sort of see those shifts of okay you know what do i do with all of this used equipment uh hash price

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is low i can only really control my costs so now i need to now i need to look at um

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now i need to look at low cost power and finding more efficiencies whereas before if hash price is

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at 60 um that's not really a requirement do you find that as well like do you find that

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you have an increase in calls and an increase in interest in low hash price environment or

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Or is that not the case?

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We are finding that for those exact reasons.

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Because in a low hash price environment,

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Bitcoin mining companies are economically incentivized

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to be scavengers to a larger degree.

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In other words, they have to look at the hash price

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is really low, then the biggest variable in your control

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is electricity cost.

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And so you'll go further.

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you will do due diligence to a larger extent than in a high hash price environment when it becomes

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about deploying fast and yeah basically just the amount of hash power you can get

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so yes we are noticing that definitely bitx solomining.de got it premium made in germany

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You want to go fancy? Go for NerdX or NerdQX++ for a lot of power.

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Worldwide shipping. Check out solomining.de today.

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Okay, so what interests me next, Daniel, is how the collection works.

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Because I understand flare gas, you know, oil gets out the ground.

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Gas is a byproduct. You siphon that off. You funnel it through a pipe. You burn it.

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On a trash heap, I assume that's a lot more difficult.

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is that the case how does that work that process yes it is i would say difficult in different ways

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the difficulty on a landfill is twofold so you may if you have a modern landfill part of the job

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is already done because that landfill will have what's called perforated vertical well shafts that

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go deep into the landfill. They may go 30 meters deep in some cases and perforated as the name

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suggests. So it has little holes in it that will collect the methane and they go right up the

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well shaft until it reaches the surface of the landfill and they'll be released into the atmosphere.

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So that's on a modern landfill. And so in those cases, you're basically, it's like sealing a jar.

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So you cap the landfill, you have a pipe that comes out of every one of those well shafts. You might

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have 100 or 200 on a landfill. So then you pipe them all into some big header unit and then that

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goes towards your generator. But before it goes into the generator, you have to do two things,

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at least two things. You have to compress it because it doesn't come out with a lot of

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compression. So you have to compress it so it has enough pressure to go through the generator.

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And you have to also take out the moisture because there's a lot of moisture in biogas.

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In some landfills, you have to do a third thing.

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You might have to remove some impurities,

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but the sort of countries we're looking at,

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that generally isn't necessary.

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Those impurities come in the form of something called siloxanes.

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But once you're outside the West, you don't get as many siloxanes

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because they tend to come from things like cosmetic products.

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So you can basically tell whether you're in an affluent country or not

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by the amount of siloxanes in the landfill.

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It's very interesting.

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So that's a modern landfill.

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If it's not a modern landfill, if it's an open dump, then you have to do an extra step because basically that's just a big trash heap.

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So you have to make sure that it's stable.

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You have to make sure that there's no fires that have occurred recently or there may be an ongoing fire.

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Because if it's an open dump, the whole reason that landfills in the Western world will have these perforated vertical well shafts, you might think, well, why would you do that if it just simply gets released into the air anyway?

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Well, it's for health and safety reasons.

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So two bad things can happen on landfills.

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If you don't have these well shafts, number one, you can get fires.

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So methane, of course, can explode.

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So there's an increased danger of fire if you don't get rid of that methane from the landfill.

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But the second thing is you can get a buildup of the gas, the biogas, and you're driving some heavy machinery over the top.

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Suddenly you get subsidence, which is also a big risk.

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So that's a modern landfill.

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If it's an open dump, then you have to do more due diligence on it to make sure it's safe to do this project, to make sure there's no fires in the landfill that you don't even know about, because not only is that dangerous, that's basically eating up your power that you think you're going to have available.

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But it turns out, oh, there was a fire there and it was already burning and it's already burnt 50% of the gas we thought we'd had.

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So that's a challenge.

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and then you have to get these huge augers which come on the back of these big trucks and

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drill into the landfill itself to create a cavity and then retrofit these well shafts into the

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landfill and then wait for it to start to stabilize normalize and then release the

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biogas through these well shafts so that that costs a bit of extra money relative to the total

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capital it's still only about you know an extra 10 to 20 percent so it's manageable but it's a big

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additional cost. So those are the two forms that it takes. And then once it goes into the generator,

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traditionally what happened before Bitcoin mining came along, you could only do these projects

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on landfills that were close to the grid. So then the generator would turn it into power,

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into electricity, and you'd hook that up to the grid. You'd sell it to the grid as electricity.

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So we're targeting the landfills that have no option of selling to the grid because they're

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too far away. It would require a major substation upgrade to do it. So it's economically unviable

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or where I live in Costa Rica and other parts of the world, it's actually you're not allowed to.

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There's a government regulation that prevents you selling power to the grid.

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So that's perhaps 50% of the world's landfills that are in that position where they are purely stranded energy.

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There is no option to sell to the grid.

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And there's no one who wants to set up their business on a landfill for obvious reasons, apart from these scrappy, low power price dependent, location agnostic, time of day agnostic anomalies called Bitcoin mining companies.

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So they're really the only option that's economically viable for these landfills.

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okay so just just to recap right if you um have sort of similar quality gas um from a flare versus

218
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a vented gas what's the capex difference would you say is it that 10 15 that you mentioned

219
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or is it from a landfill yeah

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from a landfill if it's got a flare stack already going then it's already got some additional

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piping in place.

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So that might save you

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5% to 10% of the total budget.

224
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The big

225
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saving is if it already

226
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has the

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vertical well shafts in the landfill,

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that'll save you up to 20%.

229
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Let's talk Costa Rica.

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Why would a landfill

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have that?

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I don't fully understand.

233
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Is there sites that already have

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those shafts installed?

235
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And if so, why?

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00:18:40,971 --> 00:18:50,752
uh the vertical well shafts yes yes yes there are and again that's for regulatory reasons that's

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for health and safety that to avoid the build of methane or to prevent fires on the site so it for local health and safety but of course it does nothing for global health and safety All right And then if you have the vertical well shafts and I just trying to picture like a trash heap right

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And there's gas buildup across the area of it, underneath the trash.

239
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And then it just sort of gets funneled to that.

240
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But then you said you have to drill additional cavities that sort of...

241
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There are two things.

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Two things.

243
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Go ahead.

244
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You don't have to drill.

245
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So number one, you have a modern landfill.

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The cavity is already there.

247
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No extra drilling required.

248
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Second possibility is it's a trash heap.

249
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It's not a modern landfill.

250
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There are no well shafts, and you have to retrospectively create them.

251
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All right.

252
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And then to collect the gas on top of the heap or on top of the landfill,

253
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you just install piping like I have trouble picturing it, right?

254
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Just think of the pipes that come out of a six-cylinder engine.

255
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It kind of looks like that, except rather than going to a cylinder of an internal combustion engine, it's going into a trash heap.

256
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So it extracts, you have multiple different pipes coming from the landfill, and then it feeds into one central unit or many central units.

257
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And that in turn feeds into a smaller central unit, which goes into a generator.

258
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and you might have multiple generators.

259
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You might have 10 or 20 generators on a large landfill.

260
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Yeah, okay, understood.

261
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Each being fed by many different pipes.

262
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All right, fair enough.

263
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Yeah, that makes more sense.

264
00:20:34,743 --> 00:20:37,583
So I'm struggling very frequently, Daniel,

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when I approach stranded energy owners

266
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with the lack of education in Bitcoin mining, obviously.

267
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These people have no idea how it works

268
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or what the hell is going on right but i i as soon as i mentioned the word bitcoin i can see the

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dollar signs in their eyes right is that something you struggle with and how do you um and maybe let's

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get into what ch4 capital exactly does how do you have that conversation with landfill owners

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or candidates for projects um when you have to explain to them that hey we can only really afford

272
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anything below two cents or whatever you guys project like how do you have that discussion

273
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well there's two things number one a bitcoin mining company will come to us and they already

274
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have a site but where that's not the case and we look for the site ourselves we might talk to a

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large waste management company and the first thing we say is we're just very transparent we say look

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this is only a solution for sites that you have which have no option to sell power to the grid

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That's the first thing we would say.

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We would say, look, if you're looking to, there's some environmental compliance requirement,

279
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or if you simply want to monetize energy that's been wasted, then this is an excellent solution

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for sites that have no option to sell to the grid.

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And in the past, you had no option other than to vent it or to pay money to flare it.

282
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In other words, pay money to waste energy.

283
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Well, we have another option, which is you don't pay money and you monetize that energy.

284
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So you win on the expense side because you get rid of the expense of a flare stack and

285
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you win on the revenue side because you don't waste it.

286
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You turn it into revenue you can sell to an on-site data center.

287
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And we generally start with saying, look, it's a data center solution.

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And then we say, and we found that the only type of data center operator who's prepared

289
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to do this has to be a data center operator because it's going to cost them a lot of money

290
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to chase that cheap power.

291
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And so two things are important to them.

292
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They will only pay up to one cent per kilowatt hour for that power.

293
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So that's why we say if you can sell it to the grid, you should because you get much more for it.

294
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We also say, look, if you want to get more for that power, you can.

295
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But that requires you co-investing in the infrastructure bill.

296
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It's not fair for you to expect more for the power if you're not doing any of the bill.

297
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That's just fair.

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And often we present a plan where we say, look, you can get up to three and a half cents.

299
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if you want to do the full kit and the infrastructure investment, you can charge

300
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three and a half cents, but you're going to have to pay for the capital. If you want to share the

301
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cost in the middle, you get somewhere in the middle. And if you want to do none of the capital

302
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investment, then you're still going to get something, but it's going to be more like the

303
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one cent threshold. And they get that. They get that that's fair. And we say, look, for us as the

304
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financing company, we don't actually care directly what agreement you come up with.

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Obviously, we want it to be fair to both parties.

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And so looking at it as a neutral party in this, because we don't have a direct contractual relationship with the landfill owner, we say, look, we just suggest that if it's going to be beyond one cent per kilowatt hour, Bitcoin mining companies won't get involved because they realize that even though it's very cheap, by the time that they've factored in their additional capital costs, it's effectively costing them more like 3.5 cents.

307
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and if you once you're above 3.5 cents in this current environment then bitcoin mining companies

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00:24:04,363 --> 00:24:09,763
will look somewhere else this episode is sponsored by hash branch the easiest way to mine bitcoin in

309
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310
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311
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312
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313
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get 100 off of each miner that you order yeah also it has to do with um it's not just you know

314
00:24:41,803 --> 00:24:49,163
lowest power but it's also what risk is attached to that low power you know um yeah and if you can

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00:24:49,163 --> 00:24:56,363
mine for four and a half cents on grid in texas versus three and a half in costa rica you know

316
00:24:56,363 --> 00:25:01,943
that there's a difference that's in risk that I think will be bigger than one cent.

317
00:25:02,903 --> 00:25:07,403
Correct, especially when you have the option of demand response revenues as well on the grid in

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Texas. So yes, a Bitcoin mining company has to weigh all those things up. The advantage they get,

319
00:25:12,743 --> 00:25:17,383
of course, is that once they're fully amortized the equipment, that's going to take place within

320
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a five-year period. And after that, for like years six to 10, they are getting one cent per

321
00:25:22,543 --> 00:25:27,483
kilowatt hour so it's really a great strategy where you're front loading a lot of the cost of

322
00:25:27,483 --> 00:25:32,063
the additional risk but then if you weather that period then you're sitting pretty um throughout

323
00:25:32,063 --> 00:25:36,183
some very challenging economic times for other bitcoin miners because you've already fully

324
00:25:36,183 --> 00:25:41,403
amortized yeah especially because then you can also just you know recycle used machines into the

325
00:25:41,403 --> 00:25:46,563
site over and over and over again and amortize them in six months and then um yeah have a have

326
00:25:46,563 --> 00:25:53,443
great party afterwards um okay so yeah it does tend to favor the the old slightly older machines

327
00:25:53,443 --> 00:25:59,843
like the s19 this is an ideal site for those yeah and i mean they are dirt cheap at the moment you

328
00:25:59,843 --> 00:26:07,203
know um people are talking about scrap value being the bottom price and we're close to it because now

329
00:26:07,203 --> 00:26:14,563
bitmain lowered the price for the s19 case to what 2.9 dollars per terahash or something so anyway

330
00:26:14,563 --> 00:26:15,663
That's besides the point.

331
00:26:16,583 --> 00:26:18,723
I want to ask you one more question on this.

332
00:26:19,723 --> 00:26:23,283
Are you talking mostly to private sites or to public sites?

333
00:26:23,283 --> 00:26:28,143
And if you talk to both, who do you have the easier conversation with?

334
00:26:29,543 --> 00:26:30,843
What would you guess?

335
00:26:31,423 --> 00:26:35,263
I know the answer, but yeah, in my case, it's always private.

336
00:26:36,823 --> 00:26:37,743
No different.

337
00:26:38,623 --> 00:26:40,463
We don't even touch.

338
00:26:41,403 --> 00:26:43,003
And that's not because of any prejudice.

339
00:26:43,103 --> 00:26:44,203
That's because of experience.

340
00:26:44,563 --> 00:26:52,863
Look, to give you an example, we have someone on our team who's worked in landfill gas to energy projects, which sold to the grid for 20 years.

341
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And he just said, look, just do not get involved as soon as the government.

342
00:26:57,703 --> 00:27:07,243
And it's a shame because some of the biggest, most problematic, most polluting landfills in the world are places like Buenos Aires, which literally means good air.

343
00:27:07,323 --> 00:27:08,003
It's not good air.

344
00:27:08,063 --> 00:27:09,223
It's terrible air, right?

345
00:27:09,223 --> 00:27:16,263
it's a complete misnomer and it's terrible air because the landfill is um poisoning people

346
00:27:16,263 --> 00:27:21,423
it's creating smog it's creating uh major major health challenges but to try and do anything with

347
00:27:21,423 --> 00:27:26,923
the bureaucracy there is just um it's impossible and he just said look don't even try um so we

348
00:27:26,923 --> 00:27:32,943
will go where there's private owner the only exception might be if it's in a uh a very

349
00:27:32,943 --> 00:27:38,303
business friendly area of the world such as oman or the middle east united arab emirates we'll take

350
00:27:38,303 --> 00:27:41,643
a look at it there, particularly if we know people who have connections to government.

351
00:27:42,123 --> 00:27:46,543
That also has the advantage that it's a Bitcoin friendly jurisdiction. So they get it.

352
00:27:46,983 --> 00:27:51,603
They also, they're highly energy literate. They get it. And they're also looking to do things to

353
00:27:51,603 --> 00:27:57,223
reduce emissions. So for them, like the Sovereign Wealth Fund of Oman, remember they invested five,

354
00:27:57,383 --> 00:28:01,303
well, I don't know exactly how much it was, but it was a lot. It was multiple hundreds of millions,

355
00:28:01,443 --> 00:28:07,123
I think it was, into Cruzo Energy in 2021 to do flare gas based Bitcoin mining. So

356
00:28:07,123 --> 00:28:10,263
So these parts of the world get it, but generally speaking,

357
00:28:10,263 --> 00:28:12,403
we will not engage with government.

358
00:28:12,403 --> 00:28:14,903
It's too long, fraught, bureaucratic.

359
00:28:15,843 --> 00:28:15,943
Yeah.

360
00:28:16,223 --> 00:28:17,623
Too much cost involved.

361
00:28:19,303 --> 00:28:24,483
Just you saying that made me think that it's also a universal problem, right?

362
00:28:24,523 --> 00:28:35,414
It literally everywhere and it not going to go away People are going to keep producing trash So it a problem that only going to grow bigger if anything Yeah

363
00:28:37,994 --> 00:28:39,394
Yeah, that's exactly what's happening.

364
00:28:39,394 --> 00:28:45,654
It's growing at about 1.7% per year, roughly, the amount of trash in the world.

365
00:28:46,534 --> 00:28:48,814
Yeah, so it is very much a growing problem.

366
00:28:48,874 --> 00:28:54,454
And the other thing is that I didn't realize is people who naively say,

367
00:28:54,614 --> 00:28:56,614
well, the solution is to just stop waste.

368
00:28:56,614 --> 00:29:24,114
I mean, well, that's great. And, you know, Bitcoin will help with that. But I don't think even the most laser eyed Bitcoin maximalists would imagine we're going to migrate to a Bitcoin standard in the next year. And nor are we going to migrate to a world where we have zero trash in the next year. But even if we did, we would still have a legacy of about 20 to 30 years methane emissions from the existing landfills, even if they all close tomorrow in concert.

369
00:29:24,114 --> 00:29:29,694
so it's a there's a massive legacy issue just with dealing with the mountain literally the

370
00:29:29,694 --> 00:29:33,414
mountains of waste we've already created let alone the stuff that's coming and it's only getting

371
00:29:33,414 --> 00:29:41,154
bigger daniel what does ch4 exactly offer and um what can what do the projects kind of look like

372
00:29:41,154 --> 00:29:47,754
and tell the audience um i know there are miners among them what the ideal partner looks like as

373
00:29:47,754 --> 00:29:54,374
well for you guys? Yeah. So CH4 Capital, in essence, we are an infrastructure financing company.

374
00:29:55,034 --> 00:30:00,554
That's our business model. So what that means is we look for projects that are economically viable

375
00:30:00,554 --> 00:30:07,194
that we can create a return on for our wholesale investors. And we do that in two ways. We get that

376
00:30:07,194 --> 00:30:12,414
through the interest rate on the loans that we give, but we also get it through the carbon credits

377
00:30:12,414 --> 00:30:14,074
that are generated through the projects.

378
00:30:14,754 --> 00:30:19,174
So that's a benefit because for our investors,

379
00:30:19,474 --> 00:30:21,874
that makes them more likely to invest

380
00:30:21,874 --> 00:30:24,874
because they get a diverse source of revenue.

381
00:30:25,494 --> 00:30:26,894
And it's also uncorrelated,

382
00:30:27,314 --> 00:30:29,014
carbon credits and interest rates.

383
00:30:29,234 --> 00:30:31,934
So that's positive from a wholesale investor perspective.

384
00:30:32,794 --> 00:30:34,194
So we've actually, you know,

385
00:30:34,234 --> 00:30:35,374
we've got the money for the fund.

386
00:30:35,534 --> 00:30:38,414
Wholesale investors have been basically saying,

387
00:30:38,514 --> 00:30:40,574
look, hurry up and get some sites

388
00:30:40,574 --> 00:30:43,114
because we want to get this party started.

389
00:30:44,174 --> 00:30:45,334
So that's the first thing.

390
00:30:45,454 --> 00:30:47,794
For the Bitcoin mining company, we solve a problem.

391
00:30:48,494 --> 00:30:51,734
We realized that we really wanted to do something with landfills.

392
00:30:52,954 --> 00:30:56,634
And to be honest, look, as an economic model,

393
00:30:57,534 --> 00:31:00,734
it's not a great model because there,

394
00:31:01,334 --> 00:31:02,974
yes, whilst we get returns on each side,

395
00:31:02,974 --> 00:31:04,454
it's not particularly scalable

396
00:31:04,454 --> 00:31:07,554
because landfills generally will all be less than 20 megawatts.

397
00:31:07,554 --> 00:31:11,374
and the way to do infrastructure financing

398
00:31:11,374 --> 00:31:15,114
if you're maximizing the ability to scale your revenue

399
00:31:15,114 --> 00:31:18,094
is you look for things where you can do 100 megawatt plus deployments

400
00:31:18,094 --> 00:31:19,274
that's the way to do it

401
00:31:19,274 --> 00:31:21,314
but we had a different mandate

402
00:31:21,314 --> 00:31:24,414
we said we're not optimizing for scalability financial returns

403
00:31:24,414 --> 00:31:25,954
obviously it's got to be financially viable

404
00:31:25,954 --> 00:31:29,554
but we're optimizing for what's going to do the most benefit to the Bitcoin network

405
00:31:29,554 --> 00:31:32,534
what's going to solve problems for Bitcoin mining companies

406
00:31:32,534 --> 00:31:35,894
what's going to yes earn a return for wholesale investors

407
00:31:35,894 --> 00:31:38,074
but what's going to solve the biggest environmental hazard?

408
00:31:39,014 --> 00:31:41,054
And this is why we came to landfills.

409
00:31:42,214 --> 00:31:47,394
And so, yes, we're a traditional financing company,

410
00:31:47,394 --> 00:31:49,334
but we realized that a lot of these,

411
00:31:49,594 --> 00:31:52,414
particularly the smaller to mid-sized Bitcoin mining companies,

412
00:31:52,414 --> 00:31:55,154
are really struggling to get finance for these sorts of deals

413
00:31:55,154 --> 00:31:59,374
because it didn't have any novel intellectual property,

414
00:31:59,514 --> 00:32:00,854
so VCs don't want to touch it.

415
00:32:01,634 --> 00:32:05,314
But nor did it have the scale that traditional private equity

416
00:32:05,314 --> 00:32:09,674
wanted to touch it. So we said, well, let's see if we can come up with a model and fill that gap

417
00:32:09,674 --> 00:32:15,054
and help some Bitcoin mining companies to take the network carbon negative to get a cheap cost

418
00:32:15,054 --> 00:32:19,394
of power and also decentralize the network at the same time and solve a big environmental hazard,

419
00:32:19,514 --> 00:32:24,274
frankly. So that's what we did. And we've been doing that for a little while. And we

420
00:32:24,274 --> 00:32:31,914
then worked out that we had to do a little bit more than that because there weren't enough sites

421
00:32:31,914 --> 00:32:34,394
that Bitcoin mining companies were coming to us with.

422
00:32:34,714 --> 00:32:38,814
So we said, okay, well, we'll do something outside infrastructure finance.

423
00:32:38,914 --> 00:32:40,894
We'll also look for procuring sites.

424
00:32:41,014 --> 00:32:44,674
So we've been searching for sites globally for the last year and a half.

425
00:32:44,794 --> 00:32:46,374
And it takes a long time.

426
00:32:46,434 --> 00:32:48,554
You've got to qualify the ones that make economic sense,

427
00:32:49,214 --> 00:32:55,534
that have the certain scale that are low risk.

428
00:32:55,534 --> 00:32:59,674
And there's lots of jurisdictional risks as soon as you go outside the Western world.

429
00:32:59,674 --> 00:33:01,494
And a lot of the projects are in Latin America.

430
00:33:01,914 --> 00:33:04,034
and you have to weigh all them up.

431
00:33:04,094 --> 00:33:04,974
So it takes a little while,

432
00:33:05,614 --> 00:33:08,054
but we're at a stage now we've got three potential sites.

433
00:33:08,174 --> 00:33:11,414
And so now we're in the process of really doing the matchmaking

434
00:33:11,414 --> 00:33:13,794
where we're saying, okay, we have the right landfills.

435
00:33:14,054 --> 00:33:15,254
We have the right capital.

436
00:33:15,514 --> 00:33:17,274
Now we need the right Bitcoin mining companies.

437
00:33:17,274 --> 00:33:20,574
And what we generally look for is experience.

438
00:33:20,894 --> 00:33:22,734
It doesn't have to be on landfills because there's not enough there,

439
00:33:22,914 --> 00:33:25,314
but people should understand gas.

440
00:33:25,874 --> 00:33:29,174
They should have done stranded energy harvesting using, say,

441
00:33:29,214 --> 00:33:30,114
flare gas, for example.

442
00:33:30,114 --> 00:33:32,434
because if you've done those projects before,

443
00:33:32,554 --> 00:33:34,914
you understand about 80%, I'd say,

444
00:33:34,994 --> 00:33:36,134
of how landfall gas works.

445
00:33:36,174 --> 00:33:38,714
And then you're only dealing with the additional 20%,

446
00:33:38,714 --> 00:33:39,374
which is different,

447
00:33:39,374 --> 00:33:43,054
not trying to learn how to do stranded energy harvesting

448
00:33:43,054 --> 00:33:44,694
from gas projects from scratch.

449
00:33:45,234 --> 00:33:46,814
So we do look for that experience.

450
00:33:47,554 --> 00:33:49,934
We lend up to 75% loan to value.

451
00:33:50,114 --> 00:33:52,734
So the mining company brings in their 25%.

452
00:33:52,734 --> 00:33:55,834
We bring up to 75% in debt financing for it.

453
00:33:56,814 --> 00:33:58,194
And we're looking for people

454
00:33:58,194 --> 00:34:00,374
who are Bitcoin mining companies

455
00:34:00,374 --> 00:34:04,274
who really, I'll say a few things.

456
00:34:05,734 --> 00:34:09,614
They're looking to work in parts.

457
00:34:09,734 --> 00:34:11,574
They've already decided that part of their model

458
00:34:11,574 --> 00:34:13,494
is to do stranded energy harvesting, right?

459
00:34:14,574 --> 00:34:16,594
And so there's a compatibility

460
00:34:16,594 --> 00:34:19,394
with their business model and what we provide.

461
00:34:19,574 --> 00:34:20,974
They like the idea of being decentralized.

462
00:34:21,814 --> 00:34:25,034
They like the idea of larger capital investment upfront,

463
00:34:25,254 --> 00:34:27,874
but the kicker is that you get the low price of energy

464
00:34:27,874 --> 00:34:28,994
for a long period of time.

465
00:34:30,454 --> 00:34:32,474
Yeah, I think you also need people,

466
00:34:32,994 --> 00:34:33,654
correct me if I'm wrong,

467
00:34:33,734 --> 00:34:35,074
that have been around the block

468
00:34:35,074 --> 00:34:37,354
and kind of know and have experienced

469
00:34:37,354 --> 00:34:38,294
Yeah, they've made some mistakes.

470
00:34:39,394 --> 00:34:40,094
Yeah, totally.

471
00:34:40,434 --> 00:34:42,034
And we say stranded energy harvesting

472
00:34:42,034 --> 00:34:43,874
because just all sorts of things,

473
00:34:44,014 --> 00:34:45,574
environmental factors come into play

474
00:34:45,574 --> 00:34:49,214
when you're building hash huts in remote areas.

475
00:34:49,514 --> 00:34:50,554
We were talking to one,

476
00:34:50,614 --> 00:34:51,934
it wasn't even a non-gas one.

477
00:34:52,014 --> 00:34:53,934
It was a stranded energy harvesting

478
00:34:53,934 --> 00:34:56,794
from a dam in New Zealand.

479
00:34:56,794 --> 00:35:03,274
and they said one time we just got this whole swathe of flying insects that came through

480
00:35:03,274 --> 00:35:06,114
and we weren't set up and insulated against that.

481
00:35:06,274 --> 00:35:09,634
So that took some of our mining rigs out and just all of these kind of environmental

482
00:35:09,634 --> 00:35:14,414
and then someone else who said, oh, we weren't adequately prepared against a hurricane that came through.

483
00:35:14,814 --> 00:35:19,634
So these sorts of factors that you don't have when you're building in big data centers

484
00:35:19,634 --> 00:35:23,974
and like at an enterprise scale, if you've had that experience, it really does matter.

485
00:35:24,914 --> 00:35:25,294
Yeah, I know.

486
00:35:25,434 --> 00:35:30,374
You have to look for the crazy off chances that can wipe your entire operation out.

487
00:35:31,294 --> 00:35:35,814
Daniel, before we round out the interview, how long do you think it'll be?

488
00:35:35,894 --> 00:35:38,394
Do you think you'll have a pilot project up and running this year?

489
00:35:38,774 --> 00:35:40,494
Or what's your gut telling you?

490
00:35:41,894 --> 00:35:46,054
Yeah, I would say that we'll have a contract signed with a landfill owner.

491
00:35:46,054 --> 00:35:48,874
And we will have begun construction this year.

492
00:35:49,594 --> 00:35:52,134
We will be funding that construction.

493
00:35:52,134 --> 00:35:59,034
it has a lead time because so that won't be hashing this year it'll be hashing say q1 q2

494
00:35:59,034 --> 00:36:04,274
next year because it takes a little while about six months just to do the optimization of the gas

495
00:36:04,274 --> 00:36:10,454
field and get the flow right and then you've got to build of course the area for the bitcoin mining

496
00:36:10,454 --> 00:36:16,254
itself so that we allow around about an eight nine month lead time but i'd say we'd have contract

497
00:36:16,254 --> 00:36:21,014
signs this year all right brilliant daniel do you want to tell people where to find more about

498
00:36:21,014 --> 00:36:29,214
ch4capital and yourself it's ch4capital.com is the website and for me personally it's at

499
00:36:29,214 --> 00:36:38,434
dsbatten on x fantastic daniel that was already a 35 minute interview thank you so much for your

500
00:36:38,434 --> 00:36:43,794
time um all the way to costa rica i thought i would reach you in new zealand but you you have

501
00:36:43,794 --> 00:36:47,794
moved to the opposite opposite side of the world we moved here especially to do

502
00:36:47,794 --> 00:36:52,334
trash heap based Bitcoin mining infrastructure financing.

503
00:36:52,514 --> 00:36:53,274
This is why we're here.

504
00:36:53,734 --> 00:36:56,914
You got to be the special kind of crazy to chase that.

505
00:36:57,034 --> 00:36:58,854
Special kind of crazy to change country,

506
00:36:59,054 --> 00:37:00,674
to chase trash around the world.

507
00:37:01,014 --> 00:37:03,074
Yeah, absolutely.

508
00:37:03,534 --> 00:37:07,874
Then you have to come back once you guys are making more steps forward.

509
00:37:07,994 --> 00:37:09,414
I think this is super, super interesting.

510
00:37:09,414 --> 00:37:12,394
Something that we don't talk about often enough.

511
00:37:12,654 --> 00:37:15,134
I also don't know anybody else who is doing it.

512
00:37:15,134 --> 00:37:22,014
um vented gas mining certainly super super interesting uh and uh yeah just another um

513
00:37:22,014 --> 00:37:28,974
example of of how bitcoin mining can really help problems just through beautiful incentives and game

514
00:37:28,974 --> 00:37:35,774
theory guys this was daniel batten follow him everywhere he is at and he can be found i'm sure

515
00:37:35,774 --> 00:37:41,774
you will find all the links down below if you have questions for him on vented gas mining questions

516
00:37:41,774 --> 00:37:49,134
for me leave a like comment or anything else subscribe to this so sponsors understand that

517
00:37:49,134 --> 00:37:55,214
this content is valued by a few people out there i hope you learned something new this was daniel

518
00:37:55,214 --> 00:38:01,934
see you next time bye