1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,160 Is it possible to mine more Bitcoins than direct purchase? 2 00:00:04,260 --> 00:00:06,180 And it really depends on the price. 3 00:00:06,720 --> 00:00:08,220 And it is possible still. 4 00:00:08,660 --> 00:00:12,780 HashrateUp. Hardware sales, advisory, hosting, and side brokerage. 5 00:00:13,220 --> 00:00:17,260 Find new and used ASIC deals through the website and the Telegram channel below. 6 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:19,920 Make smarter decisions with HashrateUp. 7 00:00:20,580 --> 00:00:23,180 All right. Welcome back to HashrateUp, everyone. 8 00:00:23,180 --> 00:00:25,160 I hope you've had a good week. 9 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:30,460 Today, I am sitting down with Mr. Stefan Kern, all the way from Austria. 10 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:37,340 He is CEO of the Bitcoin Group, a group that focuses on Bitcoin mining, largely focuses on institutions. 11 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:41,640 They have a really, really nice website that I'm sure we'll link in the description. 12 00:00:42,300 --> 00:00:44,460 And their target is sort of the institutional groups. 13 00:00:45,020 --> 00:00:54,220 But I want to talk to him about surviving in the Bitcoin space and what it is like to build a business in the Bitcoin mining ecosystem, which is often very difficult. 14 00:00:54,220 --> 00:01:02,260 Before we get started, and we'll put Stefan on the screen, however, let's have a look quickly at the block height. 15 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:04,660 Let me share my screen for all of those who are on audio. 16 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:06,580 Now is the time to switch. 17 00:01:07,060 --> 00:01:11,260 We're recording at, the block was just found, 934710. 18 00:01:12,300 --> 00:01:15,420 We're currently 220 blocks behind. 19 00:01:15,420 --> 00:01:35,180 This is a very historic time right now in Bitcoin mining, where I think we are going to see a total difficulty adjustment over the last six, seven, eight blocks of about 30 to 40% downwards, which is just below the China mining ban and historical dumps in Bitcoin price. 20 00:01:35,180 --> 00:01:41,120 I just did a focus episode on exactly that, the difficulty developments. 21 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:48,220 And we are also going to look at hash price, which currently sits again in the absolute pain zone. 22 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:52,360 Bitcoin dipped to, where are we? 23 00:01:52,500 --> 00:01:54,440 I think about $78,000. 24 00:01:54,500 --> 00:01:56,340 Here we go, $76,000. 25 00:01:56,900 --> 00:02:01,980 So now it's again below $35 per terahash, which is very painful, I'm sure, for many. 26 00:02:01,980 --> 00:02:08,240 and we are still looking at a historical difficulty adjustment of minus 14 percent 27 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:16,020 and we're about 65 65 through the epoch so yeah a lot of a lot of stuff can still happen it seems 28 00:02:16,020 --> 00:02:21,880 like the hash rate from the winter storm has still not returned but with all of that being said 29 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:28,340 stefan welcome to hash rate up thank you for your time and for being here what do you think about 30 00:02:28,340 --> 00:02:30,620 hash price right now. Does it give you any headaches? 31 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:32,740 Hello, Jesse. First of all, 32 00:02:32,780 --> 00:02:34,780 thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. 33 00:02:35,660 --> 00:02:36,260 Yeah, I mean, 34 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:38,420 every Bitcoin miner, when the Bitcoin price 35 00:02:38,420 --> 00:02:40,320 drops, when the hash price goes down, 36 00:02:40,460 --> 00:02:42,720 for sure, don't feel very well. 37 00:02:43,180 --> 00:02:44,580 But I think it really depends 38 00:02:44,580 --> 00:02:45,940 how you structure your business. 39 00:02:46,420 --> 00:02:48,620 And as you said at the intro, 40 00:02:48,620 --> 00:02:50,520 we are here since a long time. 41 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:52,620 So at the beginning of 42 00:02:52,620 --> 00:02:54,760 Bitcoin, honestly, our business 43 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:56,360 was really related to the 44 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:57,740 profit of the 45 00:02:57,740 --> 00:03:02,280 yeah or let's say related to the hash price yeah and the profit what we're making but 46 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:09,960 currently the last uh years we we mostly have built our company in the direction of being a 47 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:16,640 100 service provider which means for sure even the bitcoin price hash price is low 48 00:03:16,640 --> 00:03:23,120 there is less interest for people who like to get in that's clear but at the end we make our margin 49 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:31,900 So at the end, it's not so bad, but for sure, I would be more happy if the hash price would be a little bit higher. 50 00:03:33,380 --> 00:03:35,860 So what do you do with clients right now, Stefan? 51 00:03:36,100 --> 00:03:37,580 Because I said you've been around the block. 52 00:03:37,740 --> 00:03:42,940 What do you do with clients who have older machines, who might be just sort of on the brink of profitability? 53 00:03:43,340 --> 00:03:47,480 Because as a service provider, obviously, you have to bake in, like you just said, your margins. 54 00:03:48,060 --> 00:03:51,300 They don't help in times of low hash price. 55 00:03:51,300 --> 00:03:52,660 They don't help the clients. 56 00:03:52,660 --> 00:03:56,920 stay profitable exactly right so how what do you do with clients like that what's the sort of go-to 57 00:03:56,920 --> 00:04:03,780 strategy when they might be running i don't know s19s s19j pros what do you do with them i think 58 00:04:03,780 --> 00:04:10,080 the best thing is do not accept them a few years before this situation is happening i mean uh 59 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:18,700 there is uh i mean better no deal than a bad deal you know so at the end uh it starts by 60 00:04:18,700 --> 00:04:24,360 really sorting out which machines and clients you like to host at which location. 61 00:04:25,140 --> 00:04:30,940 At some locations, you have the possibility to run on spot pricing to cartel, 62 00:04:31,100 --> 00:04:32,680 maybe also a little bit higher. 63 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:38,980 So at the end, sometimes it helps to have a plan B that the miners run just 50% of the time, 64 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:41,200 you know, for some certain periods of time. 65 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:47,540 But you can reduce the hosting price for one, two, three cents to survive, you know, at that market. 66 00:04:47,540 --> 00:04:49,820 so it really starts about 67 00:04:49,820 --> 00:04:51,780 and this is how you said 68 00:04:51,780 --> 00:04:53,520 Jesse, it's when you experience 69 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:55,960 in the market, you know, this is an industry 70 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:57,440 when you come in, honestly 71 00:04:57,440 --> 00:04:59,620 also when I and we 72 00:04:59,620 --> 00:05:00,420 came in 73 00:05:00,420 --> 00:05:03,360 you know nothing, you know 74 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:05,740 so you 75 00:05:05,740 --> 00:05:07,440 really have to learn mostly 76 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:09,540 on the hard way, you know, how are 77 00:05:09,540 --> 00:05:11,200 the cycles happening 78 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:13,740 this and that, when I remember 79 00:05:13,740 --> 00:05:15,860 in 2017, we started 80 00:05:15,860 --> 00:05:17,800 2016 was the mining 81 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:19,820 2017 we founded the company 82 00:05:19,820 --> 00:05:21,480 back then we 83 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:23,760 mined in Austria so 84 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:25,860 in the middle of Europe which 85 00:05:25,860 --> 00:05:27,800 the energy prices are maybe not 86 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:29,960 the best because there is a huge developed 87 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:32,060 grid which for sure 88 00:05:32,060 --> 00:05:34,080 brings you not the best 89 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:35,520 ground for that 90 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:38,200 but we focused on hydropower 91 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:39,900 plans and we had a direct line 92 00:05:39,900 --> 00:05:41,220 but even they 93 00:05:41,220 --> 00:05:43,920 producers they like to get most out of their 94 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:45,760 energy you know you still 95 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:47,540 comparing with the grid. 96 00:05:48,060 --> 00:05:49,620 The only thing you can avoid 97 00:05:49,620 --> 00:05:51,460 some grid fees and this and that, 98 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:52,320 which helps. 99 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:55,300 But in the middle of Europe, 100 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:56,060 the heart of Europe, 101 00:05:56,060 --> 00:05:57,040 it's really hard 102 00:05:57,040 --> 00:05:58,180 if you do not have maybe 103 00:05:58,180 --> 00:05:59,580 additional revenue streams 104 00:05:59,580 --> 00:06:02,720 like capturing heat or other stuff. 105 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:03,940 So where you guys are mining, 106 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:05,500 you said you used to mine in Austria 107 00:06:05,500 --> 00:06:06,600 for obvious reasons. 108 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:07,780 That's not the case today. 109 00:06:07,940 --> 00:06:10,660 So where does Bitcoin mine today? 110 00:06:10,840 --> 00:06:12,200 Do you mine with partners 111 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:13,820 or are these your own sites? 112 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:15,240 And then also maybe 113 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:20,220 explain to the audience where you think mining is going to go in the next five 114 00:06:20,220 --> 00:06:26,480 years where do you see concentrations yeah so after Austria we moved to 115 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:34,320 Sweden to 18 to 19 in the US the US is our main locations we also had miners in 116 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:43,440 Argentina Paraguay Venezuela also in Asia Africa Ethiopia Northern Europe 117 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:45,440 Finland as well so 118 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:47,500 Sweden for sure as I said 119 00:06:47,500 --> 00:06:49,300 but 120 00:06:49,300 --> 00:06:50,360 at the end 121 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:53,300 yeah I mean 122 00:06:53,300 --> 00:06:55,560 the thing is always 123 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:57,740 you need to find the right ground for it 124 00:06:57,740 --> 00:06:59,360 and it's also good to diversify 125 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:01,300 our approach was always for our client 126 00:07:01,300 --> 00:07:03,140 hey don't put every 127 00:07:03,140 --> 00:07:05,100 egg in one basket 128 00:07:05,100 --> 00:07:07,260 you have to diversify that's why 129 00:07:07,260 --> 00:07:09,520 we really looked out but 130 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:11,540 I really can say after 131 00:07:11,540 --> 00:07:12,380 the last years 132 00:07:12,380 --> 00:07:16,700 that maybe these emerging markets are a little bit too tricky. 133 00:07:16,980 --> 00:07:19,780 We have responsibilities as a service provider. 134 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:21,180 We have to deliver. 135 00:07:21,700 --> 00:07:27,820 And currently, we're going now a little bit more back to, let's say, premium sites 136 00:07:27,820 --> 00:07:30,720 where we have more under control, 137 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:35,960 where maybe there is not a huge regulation change or regime change or something. 138 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:40,040 So our main market is also in America and also in Northern Europe. 139 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:42,780 this is what I can say 140 00:07:42,780 --> 00:07:44,980 of course the power prices 141 00:07:44,980 --> 00:07:47,020 at some jurisdictions are very interesting 142 00:07:47,020 --> 00:07:49,080 but at the end if you're facing 143 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:50,500 some problems here and there 144 00:07:50,500 --> 00:07:52,080 increased prices 145 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:54,860 it's not fun 146 00:07:54,860 --> 00:07:56,180 it's not fun at the end 147 00:07:56,180 --> 00:07:58,940 I mean you're obviously hunting 148 00:07:58,940 --> 00:08:00,900 at the Ethiopia situation 149 00:08:00,900 --> 00:08:03,100 and before that was the Paraguay 150 00:08:03,100 --> 00:08:04,860 situation, you know I had a talk 151 00:08:04,860 --> 00:08:06,280 when we went to Mauritius 152 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:08,460 this is also another story 153 00:08:08,460 --> 00:08:12,660 Yeah. Well, I mean, Venezuela was always illegal to my understanding. 154 00:08:13,020 --> 00:08:15,240 So that's a whole different thing, right? 155 00:08:15,500 --> 00:08:21,440 Not always. We started really years ago, but then it went illegal. 156 00:08:21,700 --> 00:08:22,600 Let's say it like that. 157 00:08:23,060 --> 00:08:23,420 Okay. 158 00:08:23,580 --> 00:08:25,160 Then of course we had to stop. 159 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:31,140 So you have Venezuela, then it's Paraguay, where they just make up import prices 160 00:08:31,140 --> 00:08:35,620 and then Ende comes and changes contract terms. 161 00:08:35,620 --> 00:08:38,360 Now Ethiopia comes along and says, hey, miners need to pay more. 162 00:08:38,460 --> 00:08:42,140 And, you know, I had a chat, just a quick side note in Mauritius. 163 00:08:42,340 --> 00:08:45,600 I was on stage at the Afro Bitcoin conference talking about this, right? 164 00:08:46,180 --> 00:08:57,520 And I was just highlighting how theoretically, if, according to my opinion, Ethiopia would do it right, you know, and they would just say, look, guys, we have more power than what we can do with. 165 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:02,020 Here's a solid power contract, three US cents, you know, three and a half, whatever. 166 00:09:03,140 --> 00:09:05,600 You know, just situate right next to the dams. 167 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:07,140 We'll give you everything that you need. 168 00:09:07,420 --> 00:09:11,040 You know, pure and regulatory certainty that you mentioned was lacking. 169 00:09:11,460 --> 00:09:13,580 Let's say all of that was given, right? 170 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:15,820 And politics was playing the long game for once. 171 00:09:15,820 --> 00:09:21,880 They would be able to completely replace all their development aid, 172 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:26,680 5 billion in funding in 2022 with Bitcoin mining revenue 173 00:09:26,680 --> 00:09:29,620 from that power that they are not using, right? 174 00:09:29,740 --> 00:09:32,580 But the problem is everybody's situated next to others. 175 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:34,980 And back when it's like starting, right? 176 00:09:34,980 --> 00:09:40,540 Back when everybody was starting in Ethiopia, it was a great thing to be very close to the airport. 177 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:44,140 You know, our site is 20 minutes from the airport, 30 minutes from the airport. 178 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:45,600 I'm like, hold on, guys. 179 00:09:45,660 --> 00:09:47,680 This is not a good thing, right? 180 00:09:47,680 --> 00:09:50,720 Because that's where all the power is needed, you know? 181 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:54,460 And if the power price is the same in the whole country, right? 182 00:09:54,460 --> 00:10:01,280 The power price at a stranded hydro dam, you know, five hours away from the capital is the same as in the capital. 183 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:10,800 then that's a problem because you know power is is not as as uh as abundant um yeah so that that 184 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:16,900 is just a problem waiting to happen and maybe i'm sure you have comments there um but i would also 185 00:10:16,900 --> 00:10:25,020 like to know stefan where do you think today is the best pricing for bitcoin adjusted for risk 186 00:10:25,020 --> 00:10:29,680 because everybody always looks at how low is the power price, 187 00:10:30,460 --> 00:10:34,380 but people don't quantify the other side of the equation. 188 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:35,640 How high is the risk? 189 00:10:37,220 --> 00:10:40,780 And is it maybe worth paying higher for power 190 00:10:40,780 --> 00:10:42,740 if the risk is significantly lower? 191 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:43,400 What do you think? 192 00:10:44,580 --> 00:10:47,700 Yeah, and please let me just add one thing, 193 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:48,820 what you said about Ethiopia. 194 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:52,460 I think in general, if you like to look at emerging markets, 195 00:10:52,780 --> 00:10:53,780 I call it like that, 196 00:10:53,780 --> 00:11:00,220 then we have to think about giving something back, you know, to bring value there. 197 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:02,200 Only then it's sustainable, you know. 198 00:11:02,500 --> 00:11:07,280 So I really like the approach which Penguin also did in Paraguay, you know, 199 00:11:07,580 --> 00:11:09,960 so that they trained people there. 200 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:14,820 So we also were thinking about if we make more in Ethiopia to also do, 201 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:17,820 to make an academy, you know, making these and that. 202 00:11:18,740 --> 00:11:21,000 But yes, and you're completely right. 203 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:25,920 So people like to be in the center, close to the airport and everything. 204 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:30,380 But the other thing is in Ethiopia, the whole country, it's not riskless. 205 00:11:31,580 --> 00:11:34,280 There is still a civil war ongoing, what I know. 206 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:37,460 Some more or less, you know, I'm not full in the picture, you know. 207 00:11:37,540 --> 00:11:40,400 I'm not a military specialist, but it's also risky, you know, 208 00:11:40,460 --> 00:11:43,020 to send people there, to be abroad, you know. 209 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:45,020 So that's another story. 210 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:49,580 Also, one question was not answered before. 211 00:11:49,580 --> 00:11:56,140 we mostly use sites for hosting with partners because we are so much diversified. 212 00:11:56,380 --> 00:11:59,800 It's really hard to have a huge footprint in each jurisdiction. 213 00:12:00,020 --> 00:12:13,805 It a lot of work needed legally this and that But we also have own sites that in the US And this coming back to the other question to the latest I think we see from a risk you know chance and a cost profile 214 00:12:13,925 --> 00:12:16,005 the US is a good location. 215 00:12:16,565 --> 00:12:23,885 I would also say that Canada may be off-grid solutions with gas. 216 00:12:23,885 --> 00:12:27,725 And also, I still think that it's much more challenging. 217 00:12:27,945 --> 00:12:32,345 Russia could be a good place also for gas offshore. 218 00:12:32,445 --> 00:12:37,325 and at some places where the energy is really the same as you said before. 219 00:12:37,545 --> 00:12:40,685 The energy is not needed in some centers. 220 00:12:41,025 --> 00:12:45,465 You need to go really off track, I would say. 221 00:12:45,825 --> 00:12:48,125 Then it's also cheap, it's sustainable, 222 00:12:48,625 --> 00:12:51,165 but with all the regulations which are in Russia, 223 00:12:51,285 --> 00:12:52,505 you need the right partners. 224 00:12:52,925 --> 00:12:56,145 We, for example, as an Austrian Swiss guy, 225 00:12:56,145 --> 00:12:59,485 if you go there, I think you are lost. 226 00:12:59,605 --> 00:13:01,445 You need good people always on ground. 227 00:13:01,445 --> 00:13:06,605 If you do it with your name, with your company, with a subsidiary or not, 228 00:13:06,665 --> 00:13:08,885 you always need good people, trustful people. 229 00:13:10,285 --> 00:13:13,645 But I still think if you have good connections there, 230 00:13:14,525 --> 00:13:17,585 and I totally see that neutral, transparent, you know, 231 00:13:17,885 --> 00:13:20,965 not with a glass that… 232 00:13:20,965 --> 00:13:21,525 Political lens. 233 00:13:21,525 --> 00:13:22,025 Yeah, yeah. 234 00:13:22,525 --> 00:13:27,765 So that I think it can be a good place for mining, also in the long run. 235 00:13:27,765 --> 00:13:31,225 but I think for us Western people, 236 00:13:31,425 --> 00:13:33,165 we have most people and investors, 237 00:13:33,285 --> 00:13:33,945 what I can see, 238 00:13:34,045 --> 00:13:35,125 they have a better feeling 239 00:13:35,125 --> 00:13:36,525 when they look at North America. 240 00:13:37,305 --> 00:13:39,705 There can be something in Northern Europe, 241 00:13:40,185 --> 00:13:41,305 but it really depends. 242 00:13:41,445 --> 00:13:44,445 There is the energy tax in some countries. 243 00:13:45,905 --> 00:13:48,245 It's more easy in Northern Europe 244 00:13:48,245 --> 00:13:50,325 when you have a different revenue stream, 245 00:13:50,605 --> 00:13:51,885 as I said at the beginning, 246 00:13:52,685 --> 00:13:53,585 with heat capturing, 247 00:13:53,845 --> 00:13:54,865 then it would make sense. 248 00:13:54,865 --> 00:13:58,665 and really the Nordics 249 00:13:58,665 --> 00:14:00,625 NO4 region in Norway 250 00:14:00,625 --> 00:14:02,205 could be also interesting. 251 00:14:02,585 --> 00:14:03,965 For us it was very difficult 252 00:14:03,965 --> 00:14:05,465 to find the right partner there. 253 00:14:05,965 --> 00:14:08,165 Everybody knows the Bitcoin mining companies 254 00:14:08,165 --> 00:14:08,845 earns a lot 255 00:14:08,845 --> 00:14:10,485 and they also like to go there. 256 00:14:11,385 --> 00:14:13,085 But some people. 257 00:14:13,425 --> 00:14:14,385 Buying Bitcoin miners 258 00:14:14,385 --> 00:14:16,685 should be simple, safe and fast. 259 00:14:17,265 --> 00:14:19,805 Altaïr technology delivers exactly that. 260 00:14:20,385 --> 00:14:21,245 Based in the US 261 00:14:21,245 --> 00:14:23,025 and shipping directly from St. Louis 262 00:14:23,025 --> 00:14:28,505 AltaEar eliminates all the shady messaging groups, customs and tariffs issues, and makes 263 00:14:28,505 --> 00:14:30,705 sure Bitcoin miners get to you on time. 264 00:14:31,005 --> 00:14:35,505 AltaEar stocks leading commercial ASIC miners, efficient home units and all the critical parts 265 00:14:35,505 --> 00:14:41,645 you need, backed by real inventory, real support and a team of people that you can rely on 266 00:14:41,645 --> 00:14:42,905 and actually mines Bitcoin. 267 00:14:43,585 --> 00:14:46,285 Thank you so much, AltaEar Technology, for supporting the show. 268 00:14:46,505 --> 00:14:48,785 And without further ado, let's get back to it. 269 00:14:49,125 --> 00:14:50,225 Yeah, no, no, I hear you. 270 00:14:50,225 --> 00:14:55,985 This is something that I struggle with, especially like in South Africa, people don't really understand Bitcoin mining. 271 00:14:56,145 --> 00:14:59,245 Yet there's a really big market for stranded power. 272 00:14:59,245 --> 00:15:03,685 I was just at the Adopting Bitcoin conference here in Cape Town where I live. 273 00:15:04,405 --> 00:15:08,065 And the amount of people that came up to me and said, hey, I got stranded solar. 274 00:15:08,225 --> 00:15:12,185 I have nobody that builds solar parks and they're not being connected and this and that. 275 00:15:12,185 --> 00:15:21,345 But as soon as you mentioned Bitcoin mining to people who operate them, you can virtually see the dollar signs or the RAND signs pop up in their eyes. 276 00:15:21,605 --> 00:15:23,565 And they're like, oh, Bitcoin, must be a lot of money. 277 00:15:25,065 --> 00:15:27,765 But yeah, no, I feel you. 278 00:15:28,165 --> 00:15:30,665 And what you said also, I totally agree with. 279 00:15:30,825 --> 00:15:38,725 I often struggle with the fact of how to network into Russia, the Middle East and Asia. 280 00:15:38,945 --> 00:15:42,105 You can maybe confirm or deny whether you feel the same way. 281 00:15:42,185 --> 00:16:03,885 But I feel like with my background, with how I was brought up and socialized and the languages that I speak, it's a lot easier to find footholds sort of Canada, the US, you know, even Latin America to me is very tough to sort of make connections in because I just don't have that culture. 282 00:16:03,885 --> 00:16:11,885 And what happens with mining in Indonesia or Thailand or Vietnam, no idea, you know, and I'm missing that link completely. 283 00:16:12,185 --> 00:16:13,545 And then it's also about the customers. 284 00:16:14,665 --> 00:16:16,705 Do customers want that? 285 00:16:17,085 --> 00:16:19,785 And can you, because at the end of the day, 286 00:16:19,845 --> 00:16:21,485 we do very similar things. 287 00:16:21,485 --> 00:16:23,785 You just do them at a much bigger scale than me. 288 00:16:25,365 --> 00:16:29,165 Can you in customer and can your sales team in your case, 289 00:16:29,305 --> 00:16:36,445 can your sales team take down the level of felt subjective risk, right? 290 00:16:36,485 --> 00:16:39,345 To something that's maybe a bit more educated. 291 00:16:39,345 --> 00:16:43,345 and that's just way easier to do in the US. 292 00:16:43,805 --> 00:16:44,885 Do you have comments? 293 00:16:47,205 --> 00:16:49,705 I think the main thing here in that field is 294 00:16:49,705 --> 00:16:52,445 as a service provider, you just survive 295 00:16:52,445 --> 00:16:55,205 when you have knowledge, expertise and a good network 296 00:16:55,205 --> 00:16:57,125 and I think our approach was always, 297 00:16:57,205 --> 00:16:58,445 we are coming from Austria, 298 00:16:58,445 --> 00:17:01,425 we have two offices in Austria, 299 00:17:01,585 --> 00:17:04,685 we have one at our headquarter in Zug in Switzerland, 300 00:17:05,245 --> 00:17:06,105 one in the US, 301 00:17:06,105 --> 00:17:10,005 But I would say we always focused on providing a good service. 302 00:17:10,645 --> 00:17:15,905 I mean, what we are doing is also we have our remote technicians abroad, worldwide, close to the sites. 303 00:17:16,145 --> 00:17:23,005 And we set up a process to service each third-party side and own side and to try. 304 00:17:23,745 --> 00:17:30,085 I really have to say, I'm not really satisfied with the result because I'm a Virgo. 305 00:17:30,345 --> 00:17:32,645 You know, everything should be perfect, you know. 306 00:17:33,645 --> 00:17:34,205 Same. 307 00:17:34,205 --> 00:17:36,925 Yeah, but in the crypto mining space, it's really hard. 308 00:17:37,025 --> 00:17:40,485 But it's good that you have a goal, you know, and you set your goal. 309 00:17:40,685 --> 00:17:42,385 And this should be a good quality. 310 00:17:42,645 --> 00:17:46,325 So we are developing each week, make things better. 311 00:17:46,805 --> 00:17:49,905 But of course, you know, when you are growing and when there is a huge event 312 00:17:49,905 --> 00:17:53,145 and there is a storm and there is a regulation and there is a ban 313 00:17:53,145 --> 00:17:56,685 and you have a movement of 5,000 miners, which we have to have done 314 00:17:56,685 --> 00:18:00,405 over New Year's Eve to another location and this and that, 315 00:18:00,885 --> 00:18:02,825 there is always something happening, you know. 316 00:18:02,825 --> 00:18:08,185 but at the end we try always to find a good solution for the client. 317 00:18:08,385 --> 00:18:11,925 I mean, we cannot cover lost profits all the time. 318 00:18:12,665 --> 00:18:15,545 Every provider would be bankrupt if you scale. 319 00:18:16,025 --> 00:18:19,425 But we always try to cover shipping costs, some other stuff. 320 00:18:19,565 --> 00:18:21,385 Sometimes we give some hash rate from us. 321 00:18:21,385 --> 00:18:27,385 We really try to build up a long-term relationship with the client 322 00:18:27,385 --> 00:18:29,885 in the suite and the long way. 323 00:18:29,885 --> 00:18:36,525 and i think this this is also different to other service providers which came up in 2016 70 also in 324 00:18:36,525 --> 00:18:43,165 the middle of europe by the way nobody is here anymore we always saw it the long way do everything 325 00:18:43,165 --> 00:18:52,765 by law you know and and yeah i mean you said also about middle east the last years for me sorry to 326 00:18:52,765 --> 00:18:58,285 say that in the middle east mining middle east you need to be careful but especially uae they're all 327 00:18:58,285 --> 00:19:06,285 cowboys so nobody cares about where the power come from if it's illegal or not or gray or this or that 328 00:19:06,285 --> 00:19:15,025 and so nobody really take a look at the facts you know so yeah no it's it's not just that you know 329 00:19:15,025 --> 00:19:20,165 you speak to people like and from the uae when you talk about hosting all that selling you 2.5 330 00:19:20,165 --> 00:19:25,745 cent hosting rates you know to sign to be attractive on paper but then the capex is 500k 331 00:19:25,745 --> 00:19:29,385 and you think, okay, but you don't really own anything. 332 00:19:30,045 --> 00:19:31,885 If the client now comes in and says, 333 00:19:32,085 --> 00:19:34,845 okay, here's half a million dollars for transformers, 334 00:19:34,945 --> 00:19:38,065 which the company doesn't own, the government owns. 335 00:19:38,265 --> 00:19:41,185 Then, okay, container, labor, discovery of the site. 336 00:19:41,365 --> 00:19:42,585 You don't own the container. 337 00:19:43,105 --> 00:19:44,285 The company owns the container. 338 00:19:44,805 --> 00:19:46,805 So what are you effectively buying? 339 00:19:47,485 --> 00:19:49,945 What you're buying is cheap power. 340 00:19:51,865 --> 00:19:53,885 You're spending all the money up front. 341 00:19:55,745 --> 00:19:58,645 and then you have a lower price after the fact 342 00:19:58,645 --> 00:20:01,725 because you basically prepaid for a lot of the electricity. 343 00:20:02,405 --> 00:20:07,885 But Jesse, do you know how much the government is paying for their energy? 344 00:20:08,105 --> 00:20:09,845 They have huge operations in the UAE. 345 00:20:11,945 --> 00:20:12,865 I don't know, maybe a cent? 346 00:20:13,285 --> 00:20:14,365 No, much more. 347 00:20:15,885 --> 00:20:17,585 They pay much more. 348 00:20:17,725 --> 00:20:18,365 That's the thing. 349 00:20:18,365 --> 00:20:22,665 And these cowboys are paying one cent or one and a half or 1.3. 350 00:20:23,505 --> 00:20:28,085 Do you think this is legal that every guy who likes to mine in the country 351 00:20:28,085 --> 00:20:32,125 pays, I would say, 30% of the power price that the government is paying? 352 00:20:32,225 --> 00:20:33,025 Just think about it. 353 00:20:33,505 --> 00:20:36,645 But are they not using the agricultural tariffs still? 354 00:20:36,885 --> 00:20:41,225 Yes, but this is not how the government is dealing with it 355 00:20:41,225 --> 00:20:42,445 because it's not legal. 356 00:20:42,605 --> 00:20:43,185 It's not allowed. 357 00:20:43,625 --> 00:20:47,325 So at the end, as you said, they're using agricultural tariffs. 358 00:20:47,745 --> 00:20:50,205 I mean, if it's everything sustainable by the law 359 00:20:50,205 --> 00:20:52,545 and you found a way to use it, yeah. 360 00:20:52,545 --> 00:20:57,165 But they found out recently they started to cancel, 361 00:20:57,325 --> 00:21:00,625 or let's say that you are not allowed to renew the mining license. 362 00:21:01,545 --> 00:21:05,685 So I know that a lot of people decided to go to the UAE, 363 00:21:05,845 --> 00:21:09,845 which we spoke as well, clients from us or potential new clients. 364 00:21:10,585 --> 00:21:12,545 And recently, especially the last few months, 365 00:21:13,245 --> 00:21:16,085 they came back, the site is offline. 366 00:21:16,385 --> 00:21:17,365 We have miners there. 367 00:21:17,485 --> 00:21:18,585 Are you able to host them? 368 00:21:19,645 --> 00:21:21,145 So it's always the same. 369 00:21:21,145 --> 00:21:21,865 Not your machines. 370 00:21:22,325 --> 00:21:24,025 No, I mean, it's their machines. 371 00:21:24,065 --> 00:21:25,865 Now the machines are dusty and dirty. 372 00:21:26,245 --> 00:21:26,745 Yeah, same. 373 00:21:27,085 --> 00:21:30,305 We experience this from the beginning all the time each year. 374 00:21:30,765 --> 00:21:33,565 People, they said, no, I like to go there. 375 00:21:33,845 --> 00:21:36,105 We told them this is maybe not the best thing. 376 00:21:36,385 --> 00:21:38,885 You know, we are not a wizard. 377 00:21:39,145 --> 00:21:41,745 You know, you cannot pay one cent, two cents, three cents. 378 00:21:41,745 --> 00:21:44,045 What we are offering is reality. 379 00:21:45,225 --> 00:21:49,425 And if you have quality service in some premium location, it costs a little bit more. 380 00:21:49,425 --> 00:21:51,845 but then you know what you get. 381 00:21:52,105 --> 00:21:54,625 Everything else is gambling, if you ask me. 382 00:21:55,505 --> 00:21:57,185 So, yeah, no, for sure. 383 00:21:57,305 --> 00:21:58,945 I completely agree with you. 384 00:21:58,945 --> 00:22:00,685 And as you think about it, 385 00:22:00,745 --> 00:22:04,885 I like to think about my business decisions 386 00:22:04,885 --> 00:22:06,445 very egoistically, right? 387 00:22:06,485 --> 00:22:08,665 I tell my clients very clear and straight, 388 00:22:08,765 --> 00:22:11,325 look, I am interested in you being successful 389 00:22:11,325 --> 00:22:13,145 so that you come back to me 390 00:22:13,145 --> 00:22:15,805 and then we do business again down the line. 391 00:22:15,905 --> 00:22:16,805 I'm not in it here. 392 00:22:16,805 --> 00:22:25,485 I'm not in it to charge you 30% margins on the machine because then I know you're not going to be happy one year in because you're going to realize I'm never going to make the money back. 393 00:22:25,785 --> 00:22:28,065 And I'm not going to go back to Jesse and buy another miner. 394 00:22:28,445 --> 00:22:28,565 Right. 395 00:22:29,125 --> 00:22:30,905 And it's the same thing there. 396 00:22:31,685 --> 00:22:32,865 Yes, you can go there. 397 00:22:33,065 --> 00:22:33,385 Right. 398 00:22:33,445 --> 00:22:34,225 But it's risky. 399 00:22:34,745 --> 00:22:38,645 And you, again, we were talking about the regulatory changes earlier. 400 00:22:38,945 --> 00:22:40,345 That same thing can happen. 401 00:22:40,385 --> 00:22:41,465 And it sounds like it is. 402 00:22:41,465 --> 00:22:50,845 So, you know, I've gone and visited farms and they look great, you know, for being in 50 degree heat, 50 degree outside temperature Celsius. 403 00:22:51,345 --> 00:22:52,565 Right. And you're like, what the hell? 404 00:22:52,785 --> 00:22:57,205 Double water curtains, you know, inside they're mining with 25 degrees. 405 00:22:57,505 --> 00:22:59,905 You know, they're trying to keep the humidity down for the corrosion. 406 00:23:00,445 --> 00:23:06,085 Anyway, what I never really understood is that dynamic. 407 00:23:06,165 --> 00:23:07,505 And maybe you can explain it to me. 408 00:23:08,105 --> 00:23:09,925 On the one hand, it's OK. 409 00:23:09,925 --> 00:23:11,885 the government says it's illegal, you know, 410 00:23:11,925 --> 00:23:16,165 you're using agricultural terrorists for not an agricultural purpose. 411 00:23:16,425 --> 00:23:20,405 But then on the other hand, it's, you know, it all happens on shike land. 412 00:23:20,745 --> 00:23:25,145 All of this always happens on some Emirati's land and therefore they're 413 00:23:25,145 --> 00:23:29,005 seemingly untouchable. That's always the story, right? And then you can think, 414 00:23:29,105 --> 00:23:32,325 okay, well, the government can make it as illegal as they want. You know, 415 00:23:32,385 --> 00:23:34,625 if, if it's, if the shike is untouchable, 416 00:23:34,645 --> 00:23:37,945 it doesn't really matter if it's illegal or not. What, what do you think? 417 00:23:37,945 --> 00:23:39,305 Like what's the relationship there? 418 00:23:39,565 --> 00:23:40,985 How do you explain this to clients? 419 00:23:41,445 --> 00:23:41,585 Yeah. 420 00:23:41,685 --> 00:23:43,565 And also like to add one thing. 421 00:23:43,745 --> 00:23:47,445 I would not like to put everybody in the same plate. 422 00:23:48,365 --> 00:23:50,585 You know, there are always exceptions, 423 00:23:50,765 --> 00:23:53,085 but I know that there is a lot of people around, 424 00:23:53,185 --> 00:23:55,865 which I think they're not professional at what they're saying. 425 00:23:56,025 --> 00:23:57,345 You know, they're telling you everything, 426 00:23:57,345 --> 00:24:00,605 everything what you like to hear, but not everybody is like that. 427 00:24:00,605 --> 00:24:04,705 And what I'm also, I would say a little bit. 428 00:24:04,705 --> 00:24:22,850 And yeah I cannot hear it anymore because everybody is the best friend of the shake Everybody I don know So for sure there are some people who have good relationships For sure they are on a shake land you know 429 00:24:23,390 --> 00:24:28,730 But I also got in the last three years so many huge pitch decks 430 00:24:28,730 --> 00:24:31,990 that everybody is doing on shake land 200 megawatts. 431 00:24:34,050 --> 00:24:37,630 But so far, the farm is not here, you know. 432 00:24:37,630 --> 00:24:47,230 So, for me, there are two huge legal Bitcoin mining entities in the UAE. 433 00:24:47,510 --> 00:24:48,850 This is what is fact. 434 00:24:49,230 --> 00:24:51,370 One is Zero Two. 435 00:24:52,190 --> 00:24:53,770 It's ADQ government pact. 436 00:24:53,910 --> 00:24:56,410 It's official where Mera is doing a JV. 437 00:24:57,310 --> 00:24:59,690 And there is also the Phoenix Group, 438 00:25:00,710 --> 00:25:05,370 where it's also well known that there is a local shake involved. 439 00:25:05,370 --> 00:25:12,790 yeah uh also as a shareholder i guess i don't know but uh this is what people are telling all around 440 00:25:12,790 --> 00:25:19,470 yeah so um they are doing legal mining but mostly i think all for themselves i don't know if they 441 00:25:19,470 --> 00:25:24,990 really offer hosting services there in the ua i don't know honestly um but then there are a lot 442 00:25:24,990 --> 00:25:30,410 of service providers for sure there may be one or two who have also good connections and try to 443 00:25:30,410 --> 00:25:32,150 figure out things good, but 444 00:25:32,150 --> 00:25:34,230 they popped up 445 00:25:34,230 --> 00:25:36,210 also in the UAE the last years. 446 00:25:36,890 --> 00:25:38,330 And let's say then 447 00:25:38,330 --> 00:25:40,010 there was 30 service providers. 448 00:25:40,410 --> 00:25:42,250 And I cannot believe that all of 449 00:25:42,250 --> 00:25:44,030 these 30 are the best friends from the shake. 450 00:25:44,990 --> 00:25:46,330 That's the first thing. 451 00:25:47,310 --> 00:25:48,430 And I 452 00:25:48,430 --> 00:25:50,290 mean, yeah, 453 00:25:50,590 --> 00:25:52,250 it's tricky. 454 00:25:52,390 --> 00:25:54,290 For me, it's high risk. We looked 455 00:25:54,290 --> 00:25:55,730 into it. We hired also 456 00:25:55,730 --> 00:25:58,430 a legal agent 457 00:25:58,430 --> 00:26:00,290 there, attorney. 458 00:26:00,410 --> 00:26:02,810 In Dubai, we checked the law. 459 00:26:03,070 --> 00:26:05,410 We also made site visits in Al Ain, 460 00:26:06,070 --> 00:26:08,410 where the most sites are in Abu Dhabi. 461 00:26:09,110 --> 00:26:10,890 And we checked it. 462 00:26:11,070 --> 00:26:14,070 And at the end, it was too risky, as you said, 463 00:26:14,150 --> 00:26:17,990 to put money in or down for capex. 464 00:26:18,250 --> 00:26:21,030 And then maybe you mine two, three, four years or not. 465 00:26:21,110 --> 00:26:21,810 Maybe one year. 466 00:26:22,250 --> 00:26:23,150 Maybe then it's over. 467 00:26:23,770 --> 00:26:25,730 And if you have clients like we are, 468 00:26:25,850 --> 00:26:27,970 and you know you're going somewhere, 469 00:26:27,970 --> 00:26:32,990 where it's, you see it, the chance that it can fail 470 00:26:32,990 --> 00:26:34,730 is just maybe 50%. 471 00:26:34,730 --> 00:26:35,550 It's huge. 472 00:26:36,010 --> 00:26:37,190 You cannot do that, you know? 473 00:26:38,090 --> 00:26:41,050 So maybe some people are mine there for a few years. 474 00:26:41,670 --> 00:26:42,210 Maybe not. 475 00:26:44,450 --> 00:26:46,690 At the end of the day, it also comes back to you. 476 00:26:46,690 --> 00:26:50,150 No matter how much you want, one of it always tarnishes your brand. 477 00:26:50,810 --> 00:26:54,610 And then we're back to what we were talking about earlier, right? 478 00:26:54,630 --> 00:26:56,330 About the sort of risk-adjusted pricing. 479 00:26:56,330 --> 00:27:03,030 if you do you know one to ten machines in the uae obviously now they're gonna charge you capex so 480 00:27:03,030 --> 00:27:08,790 then sort of the real price for hosting is maybe six cents six dollar cents is what i've seen you 481 00:27:08,790 --> 00:27:14,490 know maybe on occasions in the middle fives when really nobody's buying but then what i say to my 482 00:27:14,490 --> 00:27:20,810 clients is like look you can mine for seven and a half seven cents or whatever in the u.s um 483 00:27:20,810 --> 00:27:23,930 And you can start with one machine. 484 00:27:24,570 --> 00:27:25,790 And then you have to think, 485 00:27:25,870 --> 00:27:28,350 is it really worth the two cent difference 486 00:27:28,350 --> 00:27:31,010 to go for that amount of risk? 487 00:27:31,250 --> 00:27:32,290 I think not. 488 00:27:32,890 --> 00:27:34,790 And then I let my clients decide. 489 00:27:35,890 --> 00:27:38,370 We went also to very risky locations, 490 00:27:38,530 --> 00:27:39,650 Venezuela, for example. 491 00:27:40,210 --> 00:27:42,090 It was clear that this is high risk. 492 00:27:42,230 --> 00:27:44,330 We never have sent new generation miners. 493 00:27:45,170 --> 00:27:48,110 It was only maybe used ones from the US. 494 00:27:48,110 --> 00:27:58,890 And most of our clients only had exposure of, let's say, up to 10%, 15% max from the whole allocation in mining they have with us. 495 00:27:59,870 --> 00:28:01,490 You can diversify. 496 00:28:02,030 --> 00:28:04,490 And that's also the thing why it's good. 497 00:28:04,810 --> 00:28:06,130 Nobody knows the future. 498 00:28:06,590 --> 00:28:10,390 Nobody knows how the country is reacting in three years. 499 00:28:10,730 --> 00:28:15,290 If there is energy crisis like Kazakhstan, it was a main location, right? 500 00:28:15,290 --> 00:28:16,390 Everything was good. 501 00:28:16,390 --> 00:28:18,450 And then it started boom. 502 00:28:20,270 --> 00:28:24,030 Yeah, and then the government realized, hey, we can actually not afford these subsidies. 503 00:28:24,790 --> 00:28:26,550 So how about we blame it on the Bitcoin miners? 504 00:28:27,190 --> 00:28:28,970 Yeah, and it's still the same. 505 00:28:29,130 --> 00:28:35,790 I mean, there are some possible ways to do it legally sustainable in Kazakhstan still. 506 00:28:36,170 --> 00:28:37,910 But it's risky and tricky. 507 00:28:38,270 --> 00:28:39,650 I know a lot of people locally. 508 00:28:39,970 --> 00:28:40,470 It's too expensive. 509 00:28:40,470 --> 00:28:44,650 you can do it maybe when you're a 510 00:28:44,650 --> 00:28:46,430 producer you know energy 511 00:28:46,430 --> 00:28:48,630 producer I heard this lately that 512 00:28:48,630 --> 00:28:50,250 you are allowed to use 513 00:28:50,250 --> 00:28:52,410 70% of your own 514 00:28:52,410 --> 00:28:54,230 produced energy for Bitcoin mining 515 00:28:54,230 --> 00:28:56,230 but anyway 516 00:28:56,230 --> 00:28:58,290 you can also sell it you know and maybe 517 00:28:58,290 --> 00:28:59,090 you pay less 518 00:28:59,090 --> 00:29:01,510 offshore 519 00:29:01,510 --> 00:29:03,970 yeah no I 520 00:29:03,970 --> 00:29:06,290 this is exactly right 521 00:29:06,290 --> 00:29:08,350 I'm just thinking and I want to 522 00:29:08,350 --> 00:29:10,410 ask you about two other topics 523 00:29:10,410 --> 00:29:12,310 so yeah 524 00:29:12,310 --> 00:29:14,730 it's always the same story 525 00:29:14,730 --> 00:29:16,710 you know how much if you want to diversify 526 00:29:16,710 --> 00:29:18,670 and you want to go higher risk cool but then 527 00:29:18,670 --> 00:29:20,690 the power price has to match that 528 00:29:20,690 --> 00:29:22,970 you know and in Ethiopia 529 00:29:22,970 --> 00:29:24,350 it doesn't people are you know 530 00:29:24,350 --> 00:29:26,610 they go with certain providers 531 00:29:26,610 --> 00:29:28,410 and they're still paying $6 532 00:29:28,410 --> 00:29:30,430 $6.50 and then you can 533 00:29:30,430 --> 00:29:32,450 say okay I'm diversifying 534 00:29:32,450 --> 00:29:34,730 the jurisdiction 535 00:29:34,730 --> 00:29:36,430 right between maybe 536 00:29:36,430 --> 00:29:38,310 the US and Ethiopia 537 00:29:38,310 --> 00:29:40,350 but your blended power rate 538 00:29:40,350 --> 00:29:46,030 doesn't reflect the additional risk because then it's still i don't know maybe 6.9 cents or whatever 539 00:29:46,030 --> 00:29:53,170 um so yeah and then you talk about okay you know where do you host and then i'm at that point and 540 00:29:53,170 --> 00:29:59,290 it gets really narrow like what i advise people to do um the choices get really narrow because also 541 00:29:59,290 --> 00:30:07,810 now hosting is you know not easy anymore and you got to really know what to do and how to expand 542 00:30:07,810 --> 00:30:13,970 the lifespan of your machines and how to keep them financially sustainable even in four years from now 543 00:30:13,970 --> 00:30:21,250 because making your money back is difficult in in hosting right but people do it so um and i know 544 00:30:21,250 --> 00:30:27,690 before we spoke stefan you um you told me you guys have hired a bunch of new people you've grown a lot 545 00:30:27,690 --> 00:30:34,370 in 2025 um so you know what is what is your business looking like today where's what's your 546 00:30:34,370 --> 00:30:41,530 trajectory and then maybe also tell people a bit about versus a make or buy you know what do you 547 00:30:41,530 --> 00:30:46,710 what do you tell your institutional clients why to start mining what's the what's the pitch 548 00:30:46,710 --> 00:30:54,930 bidax solomining.de got it premium made in germany you want to go fancy go for nerdx or 549 00:30:54,930 --> 00:31:02,070 nerdqx plus plus for a lot of power worldwide shipping check out solomining.de today that's a 550 00:31:02,070 --> 00:31:02,430 good one. 551 00:31:04,130 --> 00:31:05,710 So, yeah, 552 00:31:05,830 --> 00:31:07,570 honestly, I'm 553 00:31:07,570 --> 00:31:09,790 happy how everything developed the last 554 00:31:09,790 --> 00:31:11,510 years. I mean, it's a challenging 555 00:31:11,510 --> 00:31:13,710 industry market, so we always 556 00:31:13,710 --> 00:31:15,410 double our revenue the last years. 557 00:31:15,810 --> 00:31:17,750 But at the end, you mostly 558 00:31:17,750 --> 00:31:19,510 focus on the necessary 559 00:31:19,510 --> 00:31:21,750 things. But last year, 560 00:31:21,810 --> 00:31:23,810 we also really cleaned up a lot 561 00:31:23,810 --> 00:31:25,830 of, you know, we invested in the infrastructure 562 00:31:25,830 --> 00:31:27,850 of the company. We hired a bunch of new 563 00:31:27,850 --> 00:31:30,010 people because also myself 564 00:31:30,010 --> 00:31:31,730 was really working 565 00:31:31,730 --> 00:31:33,810 very operationally in a lot of departments. 566 00:31:33,990 --> 00:31:35,770 And it's also not the job from the CEO 567 00:31:35,770 --> 00:31:38,230 on the long run to do that. 568 00:31:38,330 --> 00:31:40,490 But it's also good to know what's going on. 569 00:31:40,810 --> 00:31:41,550 That's the thing. 570 00:31:41,630 --> 00:31:44,150 If you bootstrap and if you made everything by yourself, 571 00:31:44,190 --> 00:31:44,610 it's good. 572 00:31:45,330 --> 00:31:48,570 Our company never got one dollar investment 573 00:31:48,570 --> 00:31:50,550 or something from a third party. 574 00:31:50,750 --> 00:31:52,710 Everything is organically grown. 575 00:31:53,450 --> 00:31:57,330 So yeah, this year our goal is, 576 00:31:57,950 --> 00:32:00,210 I mean, on revenue, 100 million. 577 00:32:00,210 --> 00:32:01,090 so 578 00:32:01,090 --> 00:32:03,050 wow 579 00:32:03,050 --> 00:32:04,130 but at the end 580 00:32:04,130 --> 00:32:05,050 the margins are low 581 00:32:05,050 --> 00:32:07,230 but we invested a lot 582 00:32:07,230 --> 00:32:07,810 so 583 00:32:07,810 --> 00:32:08,650 before 584 00:32:08,650 --> 00:32:09,170 yeah 585 00:32:09,170 --> 00:32:10,050 before the records 586 00:32:10,050 --> 00:32:11,690 I told you that we 587 00:32:11,690 --> 00:32:12,530 we hired 588 00:32:12,530 --> 00:32:13,730 really a lot of people 589 00:32:13,730 --> 00:32:14,130 we 590 00:32:14,130 --> 00:32:15,810 we doubled our spending 591 00:32:15,810 --> 00:32:16,570 in 25 592 00:32:16,570 --> 00:32:18,150 compared to 24 593 00:32:18,150 --> 00:32:19,670 so we also 594 00:32:19,670 --> 00:32:20,870 doubled our revenue 595 00:32:20,870 --> 00:32:21,850 but at the end 596 00:32:21,850 --> 00:32:22,730 the profit was less 597 00:32:22,730 --> 00:32:24,330 but I see it also 598 00:32:24,330 --> 00:32:25,050 in the long run 599 00:32:25,050 --> 00:32:26,070 we need to be better 600 00:32:26,070 --> 00:32:26,850 you know 601 00:32:26,850 --> 00:32:27,810 in certain 602 00:32:27,810 --> 00:32:28,590 areas 603 00:32:28,590 --> 00:32:29,970 we invested 604 00:32:29,970 --> 00:32:36,690 a lot of in our technical infrastructure development we hired a few developers so we 605 00:32:36,690 --> 00:32:45,170 really like to yeah to to make everything out of to make it more turnkey for the clients everything 606 00:32:45,170 --> 00:32:53,170 you know out of one hand more transparency we also launched a new product which is really unique if 607 00:32:53,170 --> 00:32:58,450 you ask me it's called bitcoin light before we served professional investors it was our normal 608 00:32:58,450 --> 00:33:00,790 service, hardware and hosting. Now we call it 609 00:33:00,790 --> 00:33:02,810 Bitcoin Pro for the professionals. And Lite 610 00:33:02,810 --> 00:33:05,010 is more for retailers, 611 00:33:05,190 --> 00:33:06,870 which are new. But 612 00:33:06,870 --> 00:33:09,130 we never touched this eight years long. 613 00:33:09,410 --> 00:33:10,990 Why? Because it needs 614 00:33:10,990 --> 00:33:12,530 to be a product which is, 615 00:33:12,750 --> 00:33:14,950 let's say, it has to run. 616 00:33:15,870 --> 00:33:16,830 Low maintenance. 617 00:33:17,070 --> 00:33:18,950 You have to deliver. And for me, 618 00:33:19,150 --> 00:33:20,750 you need to be big 619 00:33:20,750 --> 00:33:22,310 to be able to do that. 620 00:33:24,170 --> 00:33:24,730 And 621 00:33:24,730 --> 00:33:26,530 we really 622 00:33:26,530 --> 00:33:28,690 structure the product which you have 623 00:33:28,690 --> 00:33:29,710 uptime guarantee. 624 00:33:30,590 --> 00:33:32,890 You do not have to pay any repairs 625 00:33:32,890 --> 00:33:33,710 for three years. 626 00:33:34,790 --> 00:33:36,770 This is great because your miner 627 00:33:36,770 --> 00:33:38,810 is always running. Why are we able to do that? 628 00:33:38,890 --> 00:33:40,730 Because we have a huge fleet as well 629 00:33:40,730 --> 00:33:42,770 by ourselves. Of course, you need to 630 00:33:42,770 --> 00:33:43,730 make some calculations. 631 00:33:44,190 --> 00:33:45,690 It's also not easy. 632 00:33:46,730 --> 00:33:46,870 But 633 00:33:46,870 --> 00:33:50,150 then the client is happy. 634 00:33:50,150 --> 00:33:52,330 He buys the machine. He is online 635 00:33:52,330 --> 00:33:53,270 the same day. 636 00:33:53,270 --> 00:33:57,350 and then you have an uptime guarantee. 637 00:33:57,610 --> 00:34:00,750 You can choose also a low uptime tariff, 638 00:34:01,110 --> 00:34:03,850 which means if the Bitcoin crashes to 50 grand now, 639 00:34:04,350 --> 00:34:07,530 you can choose, okay, instead of 6.9 cents, 640 00:34:07,730 --> 00:34:12,770 by the way, Jesse, 6.9 cents is not a bad tariff, right? 641 00:34:13,410 --> 00:34:14,470 No, it's not. 642 00:34:14,750 --> 00:34:17,490 It's a good tariff for a retail entry product. 643 00:34:18,470 --> 00:34:22,470 And at the end, and there is no hidden fees at all. 644 00:34:22,470 --> 00:34:23,470 We do not like that. 645 00:34:23,630 --> 00:34:26,670 Maybe the prices look in the first perspective a little bit higher, 646 00:34:26,870 --> 00:34:29,110 but there is nothing which comes on the top. 647 00:34:29,650 --> 00:34:32,810 You know, there's no shipping, no custom fees, nothing. 648 00:34:33,290 --> 00:34:36,570 And the client can also switch to a lower uptime 649 00:34:36,570 --> 00:34:40,250 and then pay instead of 6.9, just 4.5. 650 00:34:41,550 --> 00:34:42,510 And he can switch. 651 00:34:42,510 --> 00:34:43,290 Can you see my screen? 652 00:34:43,410 --> 00:34:44,650 I'm sharing it right now. 653 00:34:45,390 --> 00:34:50,130 And he can switch back and forth between these tariffs on the dashboard, 654 00:34:50,130 --> 00:34:53,470 which is really a great thing. 655 00:34:53,590 --> 00:34:56,970 The other thing with the Lite is we do not charge any security deposit. 656 00:34:57,830 --> 00:34:59,370 So all your money goes here. 657 00:34:59,570 --> 00:35:02,330 You can pay in crypto, you can pay with credit card. 658 00:35:03,270 --> 00:35:06,790 What we launch also in the next two weeks, also with bank transfer, 659 00:35:07,590 --> 00:35:10,770 because when you get a consultation with us and you book a meeting call, 660 00:35:11,170 --> 00:35:14,490 you get also a tailor-made offer here for Lite. 661 00:35:14,570 --> 00:35:15,730 We call it Lite Plus. 662 00:35:15,730 --> 00:35:19,050 then you can also pay 663 00:35:19,050 --> 00:35:20,950 with your bank transfer 664 00:35:20,950 --> 00:35:23,470 so we really try to cover 665 00:35:23,470 --> 00:35:24,250 the full range 666 00:35:24,250 --> 00:35:27,490 now at the beginning it was more 667 00:35:27,490 --> 00:35:29,310 institutional so 668 00:35:29,310 --> 00:35:31,370 let's say it was more the professional 669 00:35:31,370 --> 00:35:32,870 the institutional 670 00:35:32,870 --> 00:35:35,630 we try to do but honestly 671 00:35:35,630 --> 00:35:37,610 we spoke about that also at the beginning 672 00:35:37,610 --> 00:35:39,450 it's not so easy 673 00:35:39,450 --> 00:35:41,090 to get them in we had 674 00:35:41,090 --> 00:35:43,630 meetings seven years ago with family offices 675 00:35:43,630 --> 00:35:45,530 the thing is they really need to believe it 676 00:35:45,530 --> 00:35:48,290 if you ask me 677 00:35:48,290 --> 00:35:50,470 a family office who invests in Bitcoin 678 00:35:50,470 --> 00:35:52,050 mining is a family office which 679 00:35:52,050 --> 00:35:53,930 should minimum hold Bitcoin 680 00:35:53,930 --> 00:35:56,550 for a few years 681 00:35:56,550 --> 00:35:58,050 and the thing 682 00:35:58,050 --> 00:36:00,470 why someone should invest in mining 683 00:36:00,470 --> 00:36:01,690 not in Bitcoin is 684 00:36:01,690 --> 00:36:04,290 if it's an entrepreneur for example 685 00:36:04,290 --> 00:36:06,470 you can also write off the 686 00:36:06,470 --> 00:36:08,390 investment depending on from 687 00:36:08,390 --> 00:36:10,350 where they are coming from the different 688 00:36:10,350 --> 00:36:11,890 jurisdictions they can write it off 689 00:36:11,890 --> 00:36:13,710 in one, two or three years 690 00:36:13,710 --> 00:36:15,630 so they have a tax benefit 691 00:36:15,630 --> 00:36:28,295 I think this is a huge thing and the other thing we also made huge calculations for institutional investors to see hey is it possible to mine more Bitcoins than direct purchase 692 00:36:28,415 --> 00:36:30,335 And it really depends on the price. 693 00:36:30,875 --> 00:36:32,375 And it is possible still. 694 00:36:32,775 --> 00:36:34,895 In the last seven years, there were some areas. 695 00:36:34,995 --> 00:36:38,255 It always depends when you enter and when you get off, for example. 696 00:36:39,175 --> 00:36:45,215 And there were some periods of time where mining was better than direct purchase. 697 00:36:46,095 --> 00:36:49,855 But, of course, it's not always the time and it really depends. 698 00:36:50,255 --> 00:36:52,595 It really depends on the conditions. 699 00:36:53,775 --> 00:36:54,135 For sure. 700 00:36:55,175 --> 00:36:55,275 Yeah. 701 00:36:55,795 --> 00:36:59,135 So, would you say, just a few quick questions on this. 702 00:36:59,395 --> 00:37:00,835 You said you hired engineers. 703 00:37:00,995 --> 00:37:03,295 Are they mainly tasked with the website? 704 00:37:03,915 --> 00:37:04,675 Or what do they do? 705 00:37:06,035 --> 00:37:06,515 Developers. 706 00:37:06,615 --> 00:37:09,595 I mean, also, we have in the back end, huge dashboards, developments. 707 00:37:09,595 --> 00:37:12,375 We have our own CRM database, ticketing system. 708 00:37:12,375 --> 00:37:21,395 Everything is now, let's say, own made by ourselves, a central database, which is connected with everything. 709 00:37:21,975 --> 00:37:25,175 So there's a lot of things coming in the next weeks, this year, out. 710 00:37:25,715 --> 00:37:28,395 A new homepage, new services, everything. 711 00:37:28,795 --> 00:37:35,475 Also, all our people inside Bitcoin are working from a central system. 712 00:37:35,615 --> 00:37:37,515 We call it Nexus, Bitcoin Nexus. 713 00:37:37,515 --> 00:37:42,775 From Nexus, each department is working with, and it also goes out to the client, to the dashboard. 714 00:37:43,495 --> 00:37:45,515 All the pools are connected via APIs. 715 00:37:46,035 --> 00:37:48,835 Also, billing accounting is connected via API. 716 00:37:49,215 --> 00:37:50,755 DocuSign is connected via API. 717 00:37:50,855 --> 00:37:55,215 Everything is connected, which helps when you scale. 718 00:37:56,355 --> 00:37:56,835 No, of course. 719 00:37:57,415 --> 00:37:59,475 Okay, and then one question also on here. 720 00:38:00,275 --> 00:38:05,735 You said you're working mainly with power providers or with hosting providers in the backend. 721 00:38:06,475 --> 00:38:08,595 How do you make this work 722 00:38:08,595 --> 00:38:10,975 that people can just very flexibly choose 723 00:38:10,975 --> 00:38:12,735 which power rate they pay? 724 00:38:13,215 --> 00:38:14,275 Because at the end of the day, 725 00:38:14,495 --> 00:38:17,675 I mean, the service provider is interested 726 00:38:17,675 --> 00:38:20,315 in you guys as the client 727 00:38:20,315 --> 00:38:22,855 consuming as much power as possible 728 00:38:22,855 --> 00:38:25,595 because that's where they make their margins, right? 729 00:38:25,775 --> 00:38:25,915 Yes. 730 00:38:26,495 --> 00:38:28,615 But there are still some jurisdictions worldwide. 731 00:38:28,935 --> 00:38:30,595 I mean, here, honestly, at Bitcoin Lite, 732 00:38:30,595 --> 00:38:32,395 we decide where we place the miner. 733 00:38:33,355 --> 00:38:35,595 At Bitcoin Pro, they can choose. 734 00:38:35,595 --> 00:38:36,515 everything is transparent. 735 00:38:37,115 --> 00:38:38,495 Here, they buy the miner. 736 00:38:38,735 --> 00:38:39,755 You have the ownership. 737 00:38:40,275 --> 00:38:43,055 You have the right to have a renewable option on the hosting. 738 00:38:43,215 --> 00:38:45,475 So it's three years fixed plus renewable option. 739 00:38:46,035 --> 00:38:49,235 Then you have an option that we send the miner back to you 740 00:38:49,235 --> 00:38:50,915 or we buy it back. 741 00:38:51,115 --> 00:38:52,955 Or you can upgrade for a new model. 742 00:38:54,055 --> 00:38:56,995 But this is always tricky to say what is the best. 743 00:38:57,095 --> 00:38:58,255 We need to see how is the market. 744 00:38:59,595 --> 00:39:02,375 Maybe it's worse to renew it for a fifth year. 745 00:39:02,515 --> 00:39:02,975 Maybe not. 746 00:39:03,075 --> 00:39:04,195 Maybe it's better to sell it. 747 00:39:04,195 --> 00:39:16,155 So we all have these options here included, and we just choose some sites where we have the possibility to lower the uptime or get a better tariff. 748 00:39:17,075 --> 00:39:19,215 And that's also the thing. 749 00:39:19,375 --> 00:39:27,515 We are selling here not an S19K Pro, also not, for example, Avalon 12 series or something, which is cheap on the market now. 750 00:39:27,515 --> 00:39:33,455 We are selling more new gen with the possibility of the second tariff. 751 00:39:33,955 --> 00:39:41,275 On the long run for the next three years, I see that there is low risk that they are not profitable. 752 00:39:42,215 --> 00:39:44,135 Of course, there is always a risk. 753 00:39:45,195 --> 00:39:47,415 But yeah, this is what we focus on. 754 00:39:49,155 --> 00:39:56,475 And then, would you say, Stefan, one of the last questions here before we enter my favorite part of the show, 755 00:39:56,475 --> 00:40:02,955 the rapid fire round um would you say right now is a good place to buy machines good a good time 756 00:40:02,955 --> 00:40:07,995 to buy machines or would you say meh it's the conditions are okay i think it's 757 00:40:10,155 --> 00:40:15,275 it's it's it's it's a good time maybe not the best it's always hard to say you know uh when 758 00:40:15,275 --> 00:40:22,315 the price drops it takes a few weeks a month maybe two when the the hardware vendor secondary market 759 00:40:22,315 --> 00:40:24,335 and also the main manufacturers see, 760 00:40:24,335 --> 00:40:26,915 oh, less people buy it, 761 00:40:27,135 --> 00:40:28,895 then they drop it, you know, the prices. 762 00:40:29,295 --> 00:40:30,195 So it can be better. 763 00:40:31,095 --> 00:40:32,695 By the way, we're also launching 764 00:40:32,695 --> 00:40:35,495 a Bitcoin mining report quarterly very soon 765 00:40:35,495 --> 00:40:37,755 where we also give a barometer 766 00:40:37,755 --> 00:40:41,675 if it's now a good time to buy machines or not 767 00:40:41,675 --> 00:40:44,395 or to wait, to be very transparent, you know. 768 00:40:44,955 --> 00:40:47,635 Also some insights, how we see some markets. 769 00:40:48,915 --> 00:40:50,915 I think this is a good thing. 770 00:40:50,915 --> 00:40:53,895 and for sure there are some months, a year, 771 00:40:54,015 --> 00:40:55,955 maybe it's better not to buy and wait. 772 00:40:56,275 --> 00:40:56,935 That's the truth. 773 00:40:57,055 --> 00:40:57,735 We all know it. 774 00:40:58,455 --> 00:41:01,195 Yeah, so no, like I'll give you my opinion, right? 775 00:41:01,235 --> 00:41:05,515 So I think two weeks ago when Bitcoin was still at 85, 776 00:41:06,195 --> 00:41:08,015 a good place to buy miners, right? 777 00:41:08,335 --> 00:41:10,295 Now today at 76, 778 00:41:10,295 --> 00:41:15,515 I have to spend significantly more Bitcoin to buy the machine, right? 779 00:41:15,575 --> 00:41:18,415 So my opportunity cost in Bitcoin is a lot higher. 780 00:41:18,415 --> 00:41:20,255 so now my ROI 781 00:41:20,255 --> 00:41:22,535 because at the end of the day I want more Bitcoin 782 00:41:22,535 --> 00:41:24,115 when I mine I don't want more dollars 783 00:41:24,115 --> 00:41:26,655 right is a lot longer 784 00:41:26,655 --> 00:41:28,175 so whereas 785 00:41:28,175 --> 00:41:30,535 you know a week ago I was very 786 00:41:30,535 --> 00:41:32,895 dead set on today you know 787 00:41:32,895 --> 00:41:34,375 buying machines 788 00:41:34,375 --> 00:41:36,035 and deploying them hydro machines 789 00:41:36,035 --> 00:41:38,075 tax benefit for example 790 00:41:38,075 --> 00:41:39,635 you know it's different 791 00:41:39,635 --> 00:41:42,335 you don't have to get more Bitcoin 792 00:41:42,335 --> 00:41:42,715 maybe 793 00:41:42,715 --> 00:41:46,235 in Estonia the problem is 794 00:41:46,235 --> 00:41:47,815 I don't pay any tax on revenue 795 00:41:47,815 --> 00:41:55,015 okay that's good for you so that's a yeah that's good for me yeah but they i'm losing out on that 796 00:41:55,015 --> 00:42:00,295 benefit anyway all right so rapid fire rounds i need quick quick answers this is mostly for the 797 00:42:00,295 --> 00:42:05,295 for the shorts for the youtube shorts content for all of those out there with very little attention 798 00:42:05,295 --> 00:42:13,895 span most overrated narrative in bitcoin mining right now maybe the uae play what's very overrated 799 00:42:13,895 --> 00:42:15,935 do you think? I just wanted to say 800 00:42:15,935 --> 00:42:17,855 that, yeah. UAE mining. For me, 801 00:42:17,955 --> 00:42:18,635 it's overrated. 802 00:42:19,975 --> 00:42:21,775 Alright. One mistake 803 00:42:21,775 --> 00:42:23,755 you see repeated every 804 00:42:23,755 --> 00:42:25,775 cycle or very, very frequently 805 00:42:25,775 --> 00:42:28,115 in Bitcoin mining. 806 00:42:31,495 --> 00:42:34,075 There are so many. I mean, all the mistakes 807 00:42:34,075 --> 00:42:35,975 what people can make in mining. 808 00:42:36,355 --> 00:42:37,715 Name them all. 809 00:42:40,475 --> 00:42:41,695 Let's say, especially 810 00:42:41,695 --> 00:42:43,555 when the market is high, 811 00:42:43,895 --> 00:42:46,895 People pay too much for hosting and too much for the machines. 812 00:42:47,435 --> 00:42:50,855 And after the market is really overloaded, it went down. 813 00:42:51,155 --> 00:42:52,975 And then you maybe never get an ROI. 814 00:42:53,695 --> 00:42:54,655 That's the main thing. 815 00:42:55,335 --> 00:42:55,435 Yeah. 816 00:42:56,595 --> 00:42:57,515 Okay, fair enough. 817 00:42:57,515 --> 00:43:08,975 So last but not least, if you had a choice, Stefan, between only ever acquiring Bitcoin through mining or only ever being able to buy it. 818 00:43:09,135 --> 00:43:12,515 So you would have to choose forever mining or forever buying Bitcoin. 819 00:43:12,515 --> 00:43:14,655 you can only do one of the two. 820 00:43:14,815 --> 00:43:15,675 Which one do you choose? 821 00:43:16,095 --> 00:43:16,895 I never do one. 822 00:43:17,215 --> 00:43:18,175 I always say split. 823 00:43:18,275 --> 00:43:19,555 When someone says what is better, 824 00:43:19,655 --> 00:43:21,835 directly mining or buying, 825 00:43:21,975 --> 00:43:22,935 I always say do both. 826 00:43:23,475 --> 00:43:25,835 I would never recommend a client just mine. 827 00:43:25,915 --> 00:43:27,475 Honestly, it's maybe against my business, 828 00:43:27,615 --> 00:43:28,215 but I know it. 829 00:43:28,295 --> 00:43:28,915 It's fair. 830 00:43:29,355 --> 00:43:31,555 It's always good also to buy directly 831 00:43:31,555 --> 00:43:33,755 and we never know maybe what is better 832 00:43:33,755 --> 00:43:34,695 for the next three years. 833 00:43:34,755 --> 00:43:36,215 Of course, you can make some assumptions, 834 00:43:36,215 --> 00:43:39,795 but you never can really say it 100% certain. 835 00:43:39,795 --> 00:43:47,775 yep fair enough all right stefan thank you tell people where to find your business and how to do 836 00:43:47,775 --> 00:43:52,895 business with you so at the end if you're interested in our services just reach out 837 00:43:52,895 --> 00:43:59,735 through our home page and we're happy to to guide you yeah very easy all right cool guys this this 838 00:43:59,735 --> 00:44:06,995 was stefan ceo of bitcoin a bitcoin mining hosting provider from austria thank you stefan for your 839 00:44:06,995 --> 00:44:12,435 time it was really insightful and uh yeah it didn't did those 40 minutes felt like 20. so 840 00:44:12,435 --> 00:44:17,075 that's always a good sign i hope you guys learned something you know you know the deal follow like 841 00:44:17,075 --> 00:44:23,475 subscribe all of that good stuff it helps me show my sponsors that this content is valued 842 00:44:23,475 --> 00:44:30,675 see you next week cheers guys bye-bye 843 00:44:36,995 --> 00:45:06,975 Thank you. 844 00:45:06,995 --> 00:45:36,975 Thank you. 845 00:45:36,995 --> 00:46:06,975 Thank you. 846 00:46:06,995 --> 00:46:36,975 Thank you. 847 00:46:36,995 --> 00:47:06,975 Thank you. 848 00:47:06,995 --> 00:47:36,975 Thank you. 849 00:47:36,995 --> 00:48:06,975 Thank you. 850 00:48:06,995 --> 00:48:36,975 Thank you.