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And it really depends on the price.
And it is possible still.
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All right. Welcome back to HashrateUp, everyone.
I hope you've had a good week.
Today, I am sitting down with Mr. Stefan Kern, all the way from Austria.
He is CEO of the Bitcoin Group, a group that focuses on Bitcoin mining, largely focuses on institutions.
They have a really, really nice website that I'm sure we'll link in the description.
And their target is sort of the institutional groups.
But I want to talk to him about surviving in the Bitcoin space and what it is like to build a business in the Bitcoin mining ecosystem, which is often very difficult.
Before we get started, and we'll put Stefan on the screen, however, let's have a look quickly at the block height.
Let me share my screen for all of those who are on audio.
Now is the time to switch.
We're recording at, the block was just found, 934710.
We're currently 220 blocks behind.
This is a very historic time right now in Bitcoin mining, where I think we are going to see a total difficulty adjustment over the last six, seven, eight blocks of about 30 to 40% downwards, which is just below the China mining ban and historical dumps in Bitcoin price.
I just did a focus episode on exactly that, the difficulty developments.
And we are also going to look at hash price, which currently sits again in the absolute pain zone.
Bitcoin dipped to, where are we?
I think about $78,000.
Here we go, $76,000.
So now it's again below $35 per terahash, which is very painful, I'm sure, for many.
and we are still looking at a historical difficulty adjustment of minus 14 percent
and we're about 65 65 through the epoch so yeah a lot of a lot of stuff can still happen it seems
like the hash rate from the winter storm has still not returned but with all of that being said
stefan welcome to hash rate up thank you for your time and for being here what do you think about
hash price right now. Does it give you any headaches?
Hello, Jesse. First of all,
thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.
Yeah, I mean,
every Bitcoin miner, when the Bitcoin price
drops, when the hash price goes down,
for sure, don't feel very well.
But I think it really depends
how you structure your business.
And as you said at the intro,
we are here since a long time.
So at the beginning of
Bitcoin, honestly, our business
was really related to the
profit of the
yeah or let's say related to the hash price yeah and the profit what we're making but
currently the last uh years we we mostly have built our company in the direction of being a
100 service provider which means for sure even the bitcoin price hash price is low
there is less interest for people who like to get in that's clear but at the end we make our margin
So at the end, it's not so bad, but for sure, I would be more happy if the hash price would be a little bit higher.
So what do you do with clients right now, Stefan?
Because I said you've been around the block.
What do you do with clients who have older machines, who might be just sort of on the brink of profitability?
Because as a service provider, obviously, you have to bake in, like you just said, your margins.
They don't help in times of low hash price.
They don't help the clients.
stay profitable exactly right so how what do you do with clients like that what's the sort of go-to
strategy when they might be running i don't know s19s s19j pros what do you do with them i think
the best thing is do not accept them a few years before this situation is happening i mean uh
there is uh i mean better no deal than a bad deal you know so at the end uh it starts by
really sorting out which machines and clients you like to host at which location.
At some locations, you have the possibility to run on spot pricing to cartel,
maybe also a little bit higher.
So at the end, sometimes it helps to have a plan B that the miners run just 50% of the time,
you know, for some certain periods of time.
But you can reduce the hosting price for one, two, three cents to survive, you know, at that market.
so it really starts about
and this is how you said
Jesse, it's when you experience
in the market, you know, this is an industry
when you come in, honestly
also when I and we
came in
you know nothing, you know
so you
really have to learn mostly
on the hard way, you know, how are
the cycles happening
this and that, when I remember
in 2017, we started
2016 was the mining
2017 we founded the company
back then we
mined in Austria so
in the middle of Europe which
the energy prices are maybe not
the best because there is a huge developed
grid which for sure
brings you not the best
ground for that
but we focused on hydropower
plans and we had a direct line
but even they
producers they like to get most out of their
energy you know you still
comparing with the grid.
The only thing you can avoid
some grid fees and this and that,
which helps.
But in the middle of Europe,
the heart of Europe,
it's really hard
if you do not have maybe
additional revenue streams
like capturing heat or other stuff.
So where you guys are mining,
you said you used to mine in Austria
for obvious reasons.
That's not the case today.
So where does Bitcoin mine today?
Do you mine with partners
or are these your own sites?
And then also maybe
explain to the audience where you think mining is going to go in the next five
years where do you see concentrations yeah so after Austria we moved to
Sweden to 18 to 19 in the US the US is our main locations we also had miners in
Argentina Paraguay Venezuela also in Asia Africa Ethiopia Northern Europe
Finland as well so
Sweden for sure as I said
but
at the end
yeah I mean
the thing is always
you need to find the right ground for it
and it's also good to diversify
our approach was always for our client
hey don't put every
egg in one basket
you have to diversify that's why
we really looked out but
I really can say after
the last years
that maybe these emerging markets are a little bit too tricky.
We have responsibilities as a service provider.
We have to deliver.
And currently, we're going now a little bit more back to, let's say, premium sites
where we have more under control,
where maybe there is not a huge regulation change or regime change or something.
So our main market is also in America and also in Northern Europe.
this is what I can say
of course the power prices
at some jurisdictions are very interesting
but at the end if you're facing
some problems here and there
increased prices
it's not fun
it's not fun at the end
I mean you're obviously hunting
at the Ethiopia situation
and before that was the Paraguay
situation, you know I had a talk
when we went to Mauritius
this is also another story
Yeah. Well, I mean, Venezuela was always illegal to my understanding.
So that's a whole different thing, right?
Not always. We started really years ago, but then it went illegal.
Let's say it like that.
Okay.
Then of course we had to stop.
So you have Venezuela, then it's Paraguay, where they just make up import prices
and then Ende comes and changes contract terms.
Now Ethiopia comes along and says, hey, miners need to pay more.
And, you know, I had a chat, just a quick side note in Mauritius.
I was on stage at the Afro Bitcoin conference talking about this, right?
And I was just highlighting how theoretically, if, according to my opinion, Ethiopia would do it right, you know, and they would just say, look, guys, we have more power than what we can do with.
Here's a solid power contract, three US cents, you know, three and a half, whatever.
You know, just situate right next to the dams.
We'll give you everything that you need.
You know, pure and regulatory certainty that you mentioned was lacking.
Let's say all of that was given, right?
And politics was playing the long game for once.
They would be able to completely replace all their development aid,
5 billion in funding in 2022 with Bitcoin mining revenue
from that power that they are not using, right?
But the problem is everybody's situated next to others.
And back when it's like starting, right?
Back when everybody was starting in Ethiopia, it was a great thing to be very close to the airport.
You know, our site is 20 minutes from the airport, 30 minutes from the airport.
I'm like, hold on, guys.
This is not a good thing, right?
Because that's where all the power is needed, you know?
And if the power price is the same in the whole country, right?
The power price at a stranded hydro dam, you know, five hours away from the capital is the same as in the capital.
then that's a problem because you know power is is not as as uh as abundant um yeah so that that
is just a problem waiting to happen and maybe i'm sure you have comments there um but i would also
like to know stefan where do you think today is the best pricing for bitcoin adjusted for risk
because everybody always looks at how low is the power price,
but people don't quantify the other side of the equation.
How high is the risk?
And is it maybe worth paying higher for power
if the risk is significantly lower?
What do you think?
Yeah, and please let me just add one thing,
what you said about Ethiopia.
I think in general, if you like to look at emerging markets,
I call it like that,
then we have to think about giving something back, you know, to bring value there.
Only then it's sustainable, you know.
So I really like the approach which Penguin also did in Paraguay, you know,
so that they trained people there.
So we also were thinking about if we make more in Ethiopia to also do,
to make an academy, you know, making these and that.
But yes, and you're completely right.
So people like to be in the center, close to the airport and everything.
But the other thing is in Ethiopia, the whole country, it's not riskless.
There is still a civil war ongoing, what I know.
Some more or less, you know, I'm not full in the picture, you know.
I'm not a military specialist, but it's also risky, you know,
to send people there, to be abroad, you know.
So that's another story.
Also, one question was not answered before.
we mostly use sites for hosting with partners because we are so much diversified.
It's really hard to have a huge footprint in each jurisdiction.
It a lot of work needed legally this and that But we also have own sites that in the US And this coming back to the other question to the latest I think we see from a risk you know chance and a cost profile
the US is a good location.
I would also say that Canada may be off-grid solutions with gas.
And also, I still think that it's much more challenging.
Russia could be a good place also for gas offshore.
and at some places where the energy is really the same as you said before.
The energy is not needed in some centers.
You need to go really off track, I would say.
Then it's also cheap, it's sustainable,
but with all the regulations which are in Russia,
you need the right partners.
We, for example, as an Austrian Swiss guy,
if you go there, I think you are lost.
You need good people always on ground.
If you do it with your name, with your company, with a subsidiary or not,
you always need good people, trustful people.
But I still think if you have good connections there,
and I totally see that neutral, transparent, you know,
not with a glass that…
Political lens.
Yeah, yeah.
So that I think it can be a good place for mining, also in the long run.
but I think for us Western people,
we have most people and investors,
what I can see,
they have a better feeling
when they look at North America.
There can be something in Northern Europe,
but it really depends.
There is the energy tax in some countries.
It's more easy in Northern Europe
when you have a different revenue stream,
as I said at the beginning,
with heat capturing,
then it would make sense.
and really the Nordics
NO4 region in Norway
could be also interesting.
For us it was very difficult
to find the right partner there.
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Yeah, no, no, I hear you.
This is something that I struggle with, especially like in South Africa, people don't really understand Bitcoin mining.
Yet there's a really big market for stranded power.
I was just at the Adopting Bitcoin conference here in Cape Town where I live.
And the amount of people that came up to me and said, hey, I got stranded solar.
I have nobody that builds solar parks and they're not being connected and this and that.
But as soon as you mentioned Bitcoin mining to people who operate them, you can virtually see the dollar signs or the RAND signs pop up in their eyes.
And they're like, oh, Bitcoin, must be a lot of money.
But yeah, no, I feel you.
And what you said also, I totally agree with.
I often struggle with the fact of how to network into Russia, the Middle East and Asia.
You can maybe confirm or deny whether you feel the same way.
But I feel like with my background, with how I was brought up and socialized and the languages that I speak, it's a lot easier to find footholds sort of Canada, the US, you know, even Latin America to me is very tough to sort of make connections in because I just don't have that culture.
And what happens with mining in Indonesia or Thailand or Vietnam, no idea, you know, and I'm missing that link completely.
And then it's also about the customers.
Do customers want that?
And can you, because at the end of the day,
we do very similar things.
You just do them at a much bigger scale than me.
Can you in customer and can your sales team in your case,
can your sales team take down the level of felt subjective risk, right?
To something that's maybe a bit more educated.
and that's just way easier to do in the US.
Do you have comments?
I think the main thing here in that field is
as a service provider, you just survive
when you have knowledge, expertise and a good network
and I think our approach was always,
we are coming from Austria,
we have two offices in Austria,
we have one at our headquarter in Zug in Switzerland,
one in the US,
But I would say we always focused on providing a good service.
I mean, what we are doing is also we have our remote technicians abroad, worldwide, close to the sites.
And we set up a process to service each third-party side and own side and to try.
I really have to say, I'm not really satisfied with the result because I'm a Virgo.
You know, everything should be perfect, you know.
Same.
Yeah, but in the crypto mining space, it's really hard.
But it's good that you have a goal, you know, and you set your goal.
And this should be a good quality.
So we are developing each week, make things better.
But of course, you know, when you are growing and when there is a huge event
and there is a storm and there is a regulation and there is a ban
and you have a movement of 5,000 miners, which we have to have done
over New Year's Eve to another location and this and that,
there is always something happening, you know.
but at the end we try always to find a good solution for the client.
I mean, we cannot cover lost profits all the time.
Every provider would be bankrupt if you scale.
But we always try to cover shipping costs, some other stuff.
Sometimes we give some hash rate from us.
We really try to build up a long-term relationship with the client
in the suite and the long way.
and i think this this is also different to other service providers which came up in 2016 70 also in
the middle of europe by the way nobody is here anymore we always saw it the long way do everything
by law you know and and yeah i mean you said also about middle east the last years for me sorry to
say that in the middle east mining middle east you need to be careful but especially uae they're all
cowboys so nobody cares about where the power come from if it's illegal or not or gray or this or that
and so nobody really take a look at the facts you know so yeah no it's it's not just that you know
you speak to people like and from the uae when you talk about hosting all that selling you 2.5
cent hosting rates you know to sign to be attractive on paper but then the capex is 500k
and you think, okay, but you don't really own anything.
If the client now comes in and says,
okay, here's half a million dollars for transformers,
which the company doesn't own, the government owns.
Then, okay, container, labor, discovery of the site.
You don't own the container.
The company owns the container.
So what are you effectively buying?
What you're buying is cheap power.
You're spending all the money up front.
and then you have a lower price after the fact
because you basically prepaid for a lot of the electricity.
But Jesse, do you know how much the government is paying for their energy?
They have huge operations in the UAE.
I don't know, maybe a cent?
No, much more.
They pay much more.
That's the thing.
And these cowboys are paying one cent or one and a half or 1.3.
Do you think this is legal that every guy who likes to mine in the country
pays, I would say, 30% of the power price that the government is paying?
Just think about it.
But are they not using the agricultural tariffs still?
Yes, but this is not how the government is dealing with it
because it's not legal.
It's not allowed.
So at the end, as you said, they're using agricultural tariffs.
I mean, if it's everything sustainable by the law
and you found a way to use it, yeah.
But they found out recently they started to cancel,
or let's say that you are not allowed to renew the mining license.
So I know that a lot of people decided to go to the UAE,
which we spoke as well, clients from us or potential new clients.
And recently, especially the last few months,
they came back, the site is offline.
We have miners there.
Are you able to host them?
So it's always the same.
Not your machines.
No, I mean, it's their machines.
Now the machines are dusty and dirty.
Yeah, same.
We experience this from the beginning all the time each year.
People, they said, no, I like to go there.
We told them this is maybe not the best thing.
You know, we are not a wizard.
You know, you cannot pay one cent, two cents, three cents.
What we are offering is reality.
And if you have quality service in some premium location, it costs a little bit more.
but then you know what you get.
Everything else is gambling, if you ask me.
So, yeah, no, for sure.
I completely agree with you.
And as you think about it,
I like to think about my business decisions
very egoistically, right?
I tell my clients very clear and straight,
look, I am interested in you being successful
so that you come back to me
and then we do business again down the line.
I'm not in it here.
I'm not in it to charge you 30% margins on the machine because then I know you're not going to be happy one year in because you're going to realize I'm never going to make the money back.
And I'm not going to go back to Jesse and buy another miner.
Right.
And it's the same thing there.
Yes, you can go there.
Right.
But it's risky.
And you, again, we were talking about the regulatory changes earlier.
That same thing can happen.
And it sounds like it is.
So, you know, I've gone and visited farms and they look great, you know, for being in 50 degree heat, 50 degree outside temperature Celsius.
Right. And you're like, what the hell?
Double water curtains, you know, inside they're mining with 25 degrees.
You know, they're trying to keep the humidity down for the corrosion.
Anyway, what I never really understood is that dynamic.
And maybe you can explain it to me.
On the one hand, it's OK.
the government says it's illegal, you know,
you're using agricultural terrorists for not an agricultural purpose.
But then on the other hand, it's, you know, it all happens on shike land.
All of this always happens on some Emirati's land and therefore they're
seemingly untouchable. That's always the story, right? And then you can think,
okay, well, the government can make it as illegal as they want. You know,
if, if it's, if the shike is untouchable,
it doesn't really matter if it's illegal or not. What, what do you think?
Like what's the relationship there?
How do you explain this to clients?
Yeah.
And also like to add one thing.
I would not like to put everybody in the same plate.
You know, there are always exceptions,
but I know that there is a lot of people around,
which I think they're not professional at what they're saying.
You know, they're telling you everything,
everything what you like to hear, but not everybody is like that.
And what I'm also, I would say a little bit.
And yeah I cannot hear it anymore because everybody is the best friend of the shake Everybody I don know So for sure there are some people who have good relationships For sure they are on a shake land you know
But I also got in the last three years so many huge pitch decks
that everybody is doing on shake land 200 megawatts.
But so far, the farm is not here, you know.
So, for me, there are two huge legal Bitcoin mining entities in the UAE.
This is what is fact.
One is Zero Two.
It's ADQ government pact.
It's official where Mera is doing a JV.
And there is also the Phoenix Group,
where it's also well known that there is a local shake involved.
yeah uh also as a shareholder i guess i don't know but uh this is what people are telling all around
yeah so um they are doing legal mining but mostly i think all for themselves i don't know if they
really offer hosting services there in the ua i don't know honestly um but then there are a lot
of service providers for sure there may be one or two who have also good connections and try to
figure out things good, but
they popped up
also in the UAE the last years.
And let's say then
there was 30 service providers.
And I cannot believe that all of
these 30 are the best friends from the shake.
That's the first thing.
And I
mean, yeah,
it's tricky.
For me, it's high risk. We looked
into it. We hired also
a legal agent
there, attorney.
In Dubai, we checked the law.
We also made site visits in Al Ain,
where the most sites are in Abu Dhabi.
And we checked it.
And at the end, it was too risky, as you said,
to put money in or down for capex.
And then maybe you mine two, three, four years or not.
Maybe one year.
Maybe then it's over.
And if you have clients like we are,
and you know you're going somewhere,
where it's, you see it, the chance that it can fail
is just maybe 50%.
It's huge.
You cannot do that, you know?
So maybe some people are mine there for a few years.
Maybe not.
At the end of the day, it also comes back to you.
No matter how much you want, one of it always tarnishes your brand.
And then we're back to what we were talking about earlier, right?
About the sort of risk-adjusted pricing.
if you do you know one to ten machines in the uae obviously now they're gonna charge you capex so
then sort of the real price for hosting is maybe six cents six dollar cents is what i've seen you
know maybe on occasions in the middle fives when really nobody's buying but then what i say to my
clients is like look you can mine for seven and a half seven cents or whatever in the u.s um
And you can start with one machine.
And then you have to think,
is it really worth the two cent difference
to go for that amount of risk?
I think not.
And then I let my clients decide.
We went also to very risky locations,
Venezuela, for example.
It was clear that this is high risk.
We never have sent new generation miners.
It was only maybe used ones from the US.
And most of our clients only had exposure of, let's say, up to 10%, 15% max from the whole allocation in mining they have with us.
You can diversify.
And that's also the thing why it's good.
Nobody knows the future.
Nobody knows how the country is reacting in three years.
If there is energy crisis like Kazakhstan, it was a main location, right?
Everything was good.
And then it started boom.
Yeah, and then the government realized, hey, we can actually not afford these subsidies.
So how about we blame it on the Bitcoin miners?
Yeah, and it's still the same.
I mean, there are some possible ways to do it legally sustainable in Kazakhstan still.
But it's risky and tricky.
I know a lot of people locally.
It's too expensive.
you can do it maybe when you're a
producer you know energy
producer I heard this lately that
you are allowed to use
70% of your own
produced energy for Bitcoin mining
but anyway
you can also sell it you know and maybe
you pay less
offshore
yeah no I
this is exactly right
I'm just thinking and I want to
ask you about two other topics
so yeah
it's always the same story
you know how much if you want to diversify
and you want to go higher risk cool but then
the power price has to match that
you know and in Ethiopia
it doesn't people are you know
they go with certain providers
and they're still paying $6
$6.50 and then you can
say okay I'm diversifying
the jurisdiction
right between maybe
the US and Ethiopia
but your blended power rate
doesn't reflect the additional risk because then it's still i don't know maybe 6.9 cents or whatever
um so yeah and then you talk about okay you know where do you host and then i'm at that point and
it gets really narrow like what i advise people to do um the choices get really narrow because also
now hosting is you know not easy anymore and you got to really know what to do and how to expand
the lifespan of your machines and how to keep them financially sustainable even in four years from now
because making your money back is difficult in in hosting right but people do it so um and i know
before we spoke stefan you um you told me you guys have hired a bunch of new people you've grown a lot
in 2025 um so you know what is what is your business looking like today where's what's your
trajectory and then maybe also tell people a bit about versus a make or buy you know what do you
what do you tell your institutional clients why to start mining what's the what's the pitch
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So, yeah,
honestly, I'm
happy how everything developed the last
years. I mean, it's a challenging
industry market, so we always
double our revenue the last years.
But at the end, you mostly
focus on the necessary
things. But last year,
we also really cleaned up a lot
of, you know, we invested in the infrastructure
of the company. We hired a bunch of new
people because also myself
was really working
very operationally in a lot of departments.
And it's also not the job from the CEO
on the long run to do that.
But it's also good to know what's going on.
That's the thing.
If you bootstrap and if you made everything by yourself,
it's good.
Our company never got one dollar investment
or something from a third party.
Everything is organically grown.
So yeah, this year our goal is,
I mean, on revenue, 100 million.
so
wow
but at the end
the margins are low
but we invested a lot
so
before
yeah
before the records
I told you that we
we hired
really a lot of people
we
we doubled our spending
in 25
compared to 24
so we also
doubled our revenue
but at the end
the profit was less
but I see it also
in the long run
we need to be better
you know
in certain
areas
we invested
a lot of in our technical infrastructure development we hired a few developers so we
really like to yeah to to make everything out of to make it more turnkey for the clients everything
you know out of one hand more transparency we also launched a new product which is really unique if
you ask me it's called bitcoin light before we served professional investors it was our normal
service, hardware and hosting. Now we call it
Bitcoin Pro for the professionals. And Lite
is more for retailers,
which are new. But
we never touched this eight years long.
Why? Because it needs
to be a product which is,
let's say, it has to run.
Low maintenance.
You have to deliver. And for me,
you need to be big
to be able to do that.
And
we really
structure the product which you have
uptime guarantee.
You do not have to pay any repairs
for three years.
This is great because your miner
is always running. Why are we able to do that?
Because we have a huge fleet as well
by ourselves. Of course, you need to
make some calculations.
It's also not easy.
But
then the client is happy.
He buys the machine. He is online
the same day.
and then you have an uptime guarantee.
You can choose also a low uptime tariff,
which means if the Bitcoin crashes to 50 grand now,
you can choose, okay, instead of 6.9 cents,
by the way, Jesse, 6.9 cents is not a bad tariff, right?
No, it's not.
It's a good tariff for a retail entry product.
And at the end, and there is no hidden fees at all.
We do not like that.
Maybe the prices look in the first perspective a little bit higher,
but there is nothing which comes on the top.
You know, there's no shipping, no custom fees, nothing.
And the client can also switch to a lower uptime
and then pay instead of 6.9, just 4.5.
And he can switch.
Can you see my screen?
I'm sharing it right now.
And he can switch back and forth between these tariffs on the dashboard,
which is really a great thing.
The other thing with the Lite is we do not charge any security deposit.
So all your money goes here.
You can pay in crypto, you can pay with credit card.
What we launch also in the next two weeks, also with bank transfer,
because when you get a consultation with us and you book a meeting call,
you get also a tailor-made offer here for Lite.
We call it Lite Plus.
then you can also pay
with your bank transfer
so we really try to cover
the full range
now at the beginning it was more
institutional so
let's say it was more the professional
the institutional
we try to do but honestly
we spoke about that also at the beginning
it's not so easy
to get them in we had
meetings seven years ago with family offices
the thing is they really need to believe it
if you ask me
a family office who invests in Bitcoin
mining is a family office which
should minimum hold Bitcoin
for a few years
and the thing
why someone should invest in mining
not in Bitcoin is
if it's an entrepreneur for example
you can also write off the
investment depending on from
where they are coming from the different
jurisdictions they can write it off
in one, two or three years
so they have a tax benefit
I think this is a huge thing and the other thing we also made huge calculations for institutional investors to see hey is it possible to mine more Bitcoins than direct purchase
And it really depends on the price.
And it is possible still.
In the last seven years, there were some areas.
It always depends when you enter and when you get off, for example.
And there were some periods of time where mining was better than direct purchase.
But, of course, it's not always the time and it really depends.
It really depends on the conditions.
For sure.
Yeah.
So, would you say, just a few quick questions on this.
You said you hired engineers.
Are they mainly tasked with the website?
Or what do they do?
Developers.
I mean, also, we have in the back end, huge dashboards, developments.
We have our own CRM database, ticketing system.
Everything is now, let's say, own made by ourselves, a central database, which is connected with everything.
So there's a lot of things coming in the next weeks, this year, out.
A new homepage, new services, everything.
Also, all our people inside Bitcoin are working from a central system.
We call it Nexus, Bitcoin Nexus.
From Nexus, each department is working with, and it also goes out to the client, to the dashboard.
All the pools are connected via APIs.
Also, billing accounting is connected via API.
DocuSign is connected via API.
Everything is connected, which helps when you scale.
No, of course.
Okay, and then one question also on here.
You said you're working mainly with power providers or with hosting providers in the backend.
How do you make this work
that people can just very flexibly choose
which power rate they pay?
Because at the end of the day,
I mean, the service provider is interested
in you guys as the client
consuming as much power as possible
because that's where they make their margins, right?
Yes.
But there are still some jurisdictions worldwide.
I mean, here, honestly, at Bitcoin Lite,
we decide where we place the miner.
At Bitcoin Pro, they can choose.
everything is transparent.
Here, they buy the miner.
You have the ownership.
You have the right to have a renewable option on the hosting.
So it's three years fixed plus renewable option.
Then you have an option that we send the miner back to you
or we buy it back.
Or you can upgrade for a new model.
But this is always tricky to say what is the best.
We need to see how is the market.
Maybe it's worse to renew it for a fifth year.
Maybe not.
Maybe it's better to sell it.
So we all have these options here included, and we just choose some sites where we have the possibility to lower the uptime or get a better tariff.
And that's also the thing.
We are selling here not an S19K Pro, also not, for example, Avalon 12 series or something, which is cheap on the market now.
We are selling more new gen with the possibility of the second tariff.
On the long run for the next three years, I see that there is low risk that they are not profitable.
Of course, there is always a risk.
But yeah, this is what we focus on.
And then, would you say, Stefan, one of the last questions here before we enter my favorite part of the show,
the rapid fire round um would you say right now is a good place to buy machines good a good time
to buy machines or would you say meh it's the conditions are okay i think it's
it's it's it's it's a good time maybe not the best it's always hard to say you know uh when
the price drops it takes a few weeks a month maybe two when the the hardware vendor secondary market
and also the main manufacturers see,
oh, less people buy it,
then they drop it, you know, the prices.
So it can be better.
By the way, we're also launching
a Bitcoin mining report quarterly very soon
where we also give a barometer
if it's now a good time to buy machines or not
or to wait, to be very transparent, you know.
Also some insights, how we see some markets.
I think this is a good thing.
and for sure there are some months, a year,
maybe it's better not to buy and wait.
That's the truth.
We all know it.
Yeah, so no, like I'll give you my opinion, right?
So I think two weeks ago when Bitcoin was still at 85,
a good place to buy miners, right?
Now today at 76,
I have to spend significantly more Bitcoin to buy the machine, right?
So my opportunity cost in Bitcoin is a lot higher.
so now my ROI
because at the end of the day I want more Bitcoin
when I mine I don't want more dollars
right is a lot longer
so whereas
you know a week ago I was very
dead set on today you know
buying machines
and deploying them hydro machines
tax benefit for example
you know it's different
you don't have to get more Bitcoin
maybe
in Estonia the problem is
I don't pay any tax on revenue
okay that's good for you so that's a yeah that's good for me yeah but they i'm losing out on that
benefit anyway all right so rapid fire rounds i need quick quick answers this is mostly for the
for the shorts for the youtube shorts content for all of those out there with very little attention
span most overrated narrative in bitcoin mining right now maybe the uae play what's very overrated
do you think? I just wanted to say
that, yeah. UAE mining. For me,
it's overrated.
Alright. One mistake
you see repeated every
cycle or very, very frequently
in Bitcoin mining.
There are so many. I mean, all the mistakes
what people can make in mining.
Name them all.
Let's say, especially
when the market is high,
People pay too much for hosting and too much for the machines.
And after the market is really overloaded, it went down.
And then you maybe never get an ROI.
That's the main thing.
Yeah.
Okay, fair enough.
So last but not least, if you had a choice, Stefan, between only ever acquiring Bitcoin through mining or only ever being able to buy it.
So you would have to choose forever mining or forever buying Bitcoin.
you can only do one of the two.
Which one do you choose?
I never do one.
I always say split.
When someone says what is better,
directly mining or buying,
I always say do both.
I would never recommend a client just mine.
Honestly, it's maybe against my business,
but I know it.
It's fair.
It's always good also to buy directly
and we never know maybe what is better
for the next three years.
Of course, you can make some assumptions,
but you never can really say it 100% certain.
yep fair enough all right stefan thank you tell people where to find your business and how to do
business with you so at the end if you're interested in our services just reach out
through our home page and we're happy to to guide you yeah very easy all right cool guys this this
was stefan ceo of bitcoin a bitcoin mining hosting provider from austria thank you stefan for your
time it was really insightful and uh yeah it didn't did those 40 minutes felt like 20. so
that's always a good sign i hope you guys learned something you know you know the deal follow like
subscribe all of that good stuff it helps me show my sponsors that this content is valued
see you next week cheers guys bye-bye
Thank you.