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All right, welcome back to HashrateUp.

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Today, I am interviewing Steve Barber.

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We are talking current market, AI pivots,

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how energy companies are buying equipment from him

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to mine Bitcoin.

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Are oil and gas companies already Bitcoiners?

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Find out in this episode.

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Also, find out what VFDs are.

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Stay tuned.

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HashrateUp, hardware sales, advisory, hosting,

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and side brokerage.

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Find new and use ASIC deals through the website

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and the telegram channel below make smarter decisions with hash rate up all right so like

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i said in the introduction i'm back this week with mr stephen barber hello stephen how are you

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i'm good thanks for having me on jesse 100 it's been a long time coming i know we met

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at a bar which we vaguely remember in vegas one time and um so i'm glad that we finally get to do

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this before we get started uh we are at 943261 and we are currently 75 blocks too fast so the

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previous adjustment 7.76 and we're looking to reverse that a little bit now um and hash price

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is still sitting at just about 30. how important is hash price to you steve and what do you think

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about the market right now with all of this pivoting to a and i well i don't like when the

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blocks are fast i can put it that way um yeah i mean just like any mining infrastructure company

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the half price is uh you know that reflects the sentiment in the mining market you know if it's

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if it's trending down sentiment is bearish and negative and if it's trending up it's the opposite

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So usually we slow down on sales and inquiries, right, as you'd expect.

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But it's usually when it's trending down.

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Like if it's been flat for a while and things have consolidated a little bit, and then people sort of have an idea of where maybe, you know, where they're projecting the half price floor to be, then the inquiries start ramping up again.

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It's often the uncertainty period, right?

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Like when things are not so sure.

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So that doesn't last so long, right?

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I mean, the ride down has not been that long.

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I feel like we've been sideways for a bit now and the rush down came quite fast.

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What do you expect for like, and expect, I mean, what do you expect for hash price?

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And is hash price more important to your business and doing what you do?

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Or is it Bitcoin price still?

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Definitely half price.

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But I mean, when Bitcoin price starts, say, pumping like it was at the end of 2024 and

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into 2025, the Bitcoin price is what gets people generally that might not be in the

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market to look at the market.

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And that drives a lot of the inquiries.

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Of course, Bitcoin price going up tends to correlate with the half price going up if

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it's outpacing difficulty.

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So the price definitely, like the actual coin price is a big factor, like the direction

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it's trending, like if it's on the upswing or downswing.

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At least as our company, you know, how I have the company set up, we sort of straddle two

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markets, you know, like we're not, we've done plenty of Bitcoin projects on the grid,

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but the grid projects aren't really, they've never been a focus.

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uh so we'll sell equipment into those that market based on the you know the viability of the

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equipment itself like the quality of the equipment but we don't like heavily go after that like i've

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you know as a company we haven't heavily gone after the big mining companies because our specialty

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is off-grid and in the off-grid area you know like over the last i really started doing this in 2022

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like after the first or I wouldn't say my second bear market, but the first

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call it company, proper company bear market.

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I started adding the what I just broadly call like our oil field services stuff.

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So that's like building generators, rebuilding engines, building custom buildings.

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And in 2025, we started doing VFDs like variable frequency drive packages.

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So really, we straddle both the Bitcoin mining space as it relates to the off-grid markets, but we also straddle the oil and gas services space for anything related to power generation and power distribution.

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So we don't do enormous generators.

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We do these more cookie-cutter, small modular generators that can be used for either Bitcoin mining or oil and gas power generation.

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That's one way to put it in a nutshell.

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I guess, I mean, you've done three bear markets, you said. What has changed business-wise? Like,

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where did you guys start out and what was sort of the learnings from the first and second time?

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Maybe what's different this time around? Talk about that for a bit.

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Well, a lot of things. I mean, in the first, what I'll call the first bear market that we were

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operating in was like end of 2017 peak, because my first year in business is 2017.

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So that bear market into like mid-2020, right?

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And that's when the China ban happened.

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And that's when the hatcheries started migrating to North America.

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That was sort of like call it our company discovery phase.

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So we were first to market in this off-grid oil field thing.

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So we didn't have any, like, especially back then, like in 2019, 2018, it was a one-man show.

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Like I was, I designed everything with some help.

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I built everything with a lot of help, you know, contractors and stuff and deployed it.

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So when I say discovery, I mean, like it was figuring out the product, really, like just like the early iterations of the product.

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And, you know, those early days, like the kinds of products I was building back then, we don't build any of it anymore.

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So we've iterated like many, many times.

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In that second bear market, around that end of 2021 to 2022 timeframe or peak down into 2024, that was more optimization of the product and starting to diversify to add to our capabilities, not just serve the Bitcoin mining market.

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So in the same way, for the listeners who pay attention to the mining market and see all the big Bitcoin mining companies pivoting to AI, whereas a lot of our competition who, say, sell containers or infrastructure, where they've pivoted to AI, we haven't.

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I don't like the term pivot.

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We've added, because we haven't pivoted out of Bitcoin mining.

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is still one of our number one focuses for off-grid.

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But we've added, call it adjacent capabilities.

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So building generator systems, power, oil, and gas wells,

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for example, and facilities.

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And the drives that I mentioned earlier,

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the VFDs, the power pump, the drive pump.

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And that really represents, you know,

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like part of that is the market, I believe.

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We've, you know, and I experienced this, the company experienced this in 2020.

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Bitcoin mining was horrible at the start of 2020 leading into the summer.

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And then the price started coming up and the China ban completely put that on its head.

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So by the end of 2020, we couldn't keep off of the orders.

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But what was interesting with us is also in 2020, for those that pay attention to oil

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and gas will remember that like the oil futures went negative in North America.

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The oil and gas prices, the future prices went negative.

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I had some Bitcoin mining clients talk to me about how they shipped oil to a processing battery, like a midstreamer,

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and had to pay the midstreamer to take the oil based on their contract terms.

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It was really, really crazy.

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Especially in today's context.

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Yeah, I know.

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I know.

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Like, it's something is sort of similar happening.

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But back in 2020, given that we straddled this Bitcoin mining industry and the oil and gas, in the town that we manufacture in Canada, a town called Lloyd Minster, the entire industry in oil was dead.

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People weren't building anything.

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All the budgets got halted.

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A lot of layoffs, all that stuff.

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We were easily the busiest company in town because that's when the Bitcoin market came up, which is nice.

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Having the two markets we serve, we only really need one.

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Bitcoin could go really terrible like the Bitcoin mining market for quite a while.

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As long as I don't misallocate our resources and get a bit of good luck along the way,

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like we can take advantage of this growing oil and gas market.

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So it's almost,

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it's similar to what guys are doing in AI

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where that are keeping the Bitcoin mining.

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Like they have the Bitcoin mining

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maybe as a flexible load now

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and the AI compute is a base load.

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But, you know, if Bitcoin rips again,

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you know, goes to where we all want it to go,

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like, you know, many hundreds of thousands

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and Bitcoin mining will get exciting again

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for a lot of those grid players.

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And yeah, some of them might get rewarded, right?

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like for sticking sticking to keeping some of that business running yeah i mean would you say

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that over the last um bear markets that you've experienced investing in bitcoin mining in those

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times has historically been a good idea or a bad idea you know of course because no one can forecast

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out where with the next you know there was a period where everyone was subscribing to this

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It's like practically everybody was subscribing to the idea of like a four-year market cycle.

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And it feels like, you know, from what I see on social media, like less and less people

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believe that, you know, it's just going to pump every four years.

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Like it's sort of not hasn't followed the projections.

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And so, yes, and at the highest level, investing in capital equipment and Bitcoin mining equipment

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in the bear market is, of course, the best time to do it

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because you'll get distressed assets that you can acquire,

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especially on the mining computers.

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And we did see that in like 2021 or into 2020 and into 2021

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when everyone had written off Antminer S9s as being dead, right?

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They came back with a fury.

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They were selling for $5 a pop in mid-2020.

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and then they started selling for up i remember selling them for 700 a pop wow now like who did

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it did we go and invest in a bunch of s9s at the bottom of that market not really but we did have

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some right like they were we had them and we deployed them and sold them and you know and so

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i don't know like it's always about what's the near-term outlook i i always just run the company

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assuming i try to assume like conservative numbers like i try to assume worst case scenarios like

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budget for the worst case and you know that might just mean we don't spend as much money on developing

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say or bitcoin mining infrastructure capabilities and then we we don't get as much sales when it

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runs up but it's also about just risk you know managing risk and not overspending yeah you you

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you mentioned risk right so this is exactly where i am a critic of this whole ai i don't know i don't

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want to call it pivot now um but you know what i mean right so oil and gas it's never going to go

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away right this world needs oil also needs gas bitcoin also never going to go away this ai thing

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who knows you know it's it's super risky i feel like and and i am not sure what the strategy looks

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like if all of these big miners who previously bought tens of thousands of asics are not buying

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them anymore bitcoin keeps doing what it's doing and then what what happens if we see hash price at

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80 90 100 that competition in ai keeps compounding keeps driving the price down like is this maybe a

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a bit short-sighted you know that's at least my theory i mean we've seen roughly i think

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100 exahash 150 exahash disappear from the network since october um and i don see that trend reversing with the amount of used machinery that i see coming to the secondary market um and i think like your diversification or your your what i hear is that you guys as a result

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started diversifying into a different revenue stream that's completely decoupled from bitcoin

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and i think that's really smart um there is a question here the the question would be like

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first feel free to comment um but my question would be like currently do you see

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more demand from miners who soak up these cheap secondary market asics and want to deploy them on

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an oil and gas field do you see more demand for your infrastructure as a result of that

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Or do people skimp out on expensive infrastructure if the miners that they're buying are worth very little?

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Thank you so much, Alta Air Technology, for supporting the show. And without further ado, let's get back to it.

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Yeah, I mean, I would say in what we see less demand from.

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I'm going to I'm going to just sort of frame this in a way that hopefully makes sense.

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So like there's our products, like the Bitcoin mining products that we built, we design them to, we design them with the end user being the oil and gas company in mind.

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Okay, so we, it's designed to be a solution for stranded gas in the highest sense.

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Now, historically, a lot of our business has been selling to third parties, like Bitcoin miners who don't own oil and gas facilities.

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They buy the equipment, they contract with the oil and gas company direct.

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We would just sell them the equipment, they would put it on a contract that they have

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developed.

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We are seeing less inquiries from, I'll just call them the Bitcoin mining group, like the

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middlemen, the people that don't own the gas, and more inquiries from the people that own

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the gas.

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I think there's a few factors at play.

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It is a good time to invest in Bitcoin mining if you have the right application.

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Oil and gas applications, they're not all good applications.

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There's a lot of people forced the product and the systems that they put out there into

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bad applications.

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And there's been a lot of people bankrupted doing that.

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But for the right applications, it makes a lot of sense.

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And it's a great time to do it because you don't have to spend so much money on the computers.

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Because usually oil and gas, you do not need the newest computers.

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So you're not paying.

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If you're on the grid and you're stuck at this, like, you know, let's say you have a good power price, anywhere from like two to four cents per kilowatt hour PTAs.

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Even at that level, at least especially towards the four cents, you're almost stuck going towards the newest hardware, right?

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It's like closer to the tip.

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So like an S21 XP or S23 when that's on the market.

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But then you pay the premium because you're competing with these guys,

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everyone else in the market that needs that newest stuff.

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So you're over, in my view, you're overpaying for the hardware

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and you're going to take a bigger hit on depreciation, right?

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Like as time elapses.

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With the oil and gas folks, though,

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you usually don't need to go to the top gen you can go to like second and third gen so like s even

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s19 and make sense right now uh if on the right projects and in fact a lot of the projects the

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oil companies buy our stuff for uh those are good uh good systems to start with and then upgrade

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them later you know they pay themselves off very quickly because the gross operating cost is

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relatively low in oil and gas space if you're doing it like if you're smart about how you operate

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yeah so so we're in so we're sort of getting a drop in like these colleges random third-party

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inquiries but more in the self-mining oil company self-mining space and we probably do you know one

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one thing we haven't really been doing for years is just because it's sort of not our business

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model. Like we're more of an infrastructure company. Like we quote and sell stuff and help

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service it. Like we support the client, but the we don't really go out there and look for gas deals.

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And there's two reasons for that. Like one, one, I'm limiting our business to be like a,

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like an oil field services business.

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We're not looking to be direct contractor for gas.

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And I don't want to compete with our customer base.

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Like our customer base is doing that.

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If it's not the oil company direct,

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the customers that are contracting for that gas,

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I'm not trying to compete with them on.

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So there's elements there, I guess,

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that I consider as well.

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What's your take sort of on the market?

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And do you think, again, with this whole, what happens if Bitcoin price goes up while hash rate goes down, do you think there's enough demand in Canada and North America in general, LATAM, and enough understanding of the market to sort of soak up all of those used units?

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Or do you see them sit and collect dust and go down in price until they reach their scrap value?

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I do think a lot of the stack, if it stays in a ugly, long-term hash price is just going to keep going down, of course, because of quick efficiencies.

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Hardware gets more efficient, so more hash per dual.

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Inevitably, it's going to keep going down.

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It's always going to be what's the current spot price for machines and their growth margins.

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And I do think in any prolonged bear market, like we've been in, I considered it quite a long bear market that we're in, in general, in Bitcoin.

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The computer pricing, you know, like is a lot of the computers are getting replaced, especially before the full pivot.

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It seems like almost everyone now in the public Bitcoin mining space is now pivoted or is leaning into the AI thing.

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But prior to that, there was a lot of upgrading, right?

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they were upgrading s19s to s21s you know like watts minor m30s m50s m60s to get their their

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value down like the cost per joule or cost per watt and yeah like i do think a lot of the secondary

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market will it's gonna have to find a home like you know at the market's edge you know like oil

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field. I see we actually still get sort of steady, but it's really low volume, like low revenue.

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Like a lot of these small like solar projects that people might buy one of our black boxes for,

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and they're just filling it up with dirt cheap, like, you know, M30s or S19s.

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So they're getting in at a really cheap price just to utilize some small scale waste power.

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right and so those are like i call it you know those to be referred to as like you know edge

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cases like market edge cases like they're not they're not going to be like scalably massively

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by like one entity most likely so and really i mean really like bitcoin that's always been my

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personal thesis is that bitcoin belongs at the edge and i've always been a little critical of

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like the big miners and their strategies of building these big brick and mortar facilities

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on grid for two reasons. Like one, they weren't, a lot of them didn't build them to be portable.

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And now that AI is taking up, they sunk a lot of capital in these facilities that can't really be

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retrofitted for AI. And they've wasted a lot of money when they could have just liquidated the

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whole site and shipped it out if it was containerized.

247
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Explain that, Steve.

248
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Why can it not be just upgraded to tier three or tier four from tier one?

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Well, I know, I don't want to say can't.

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I know there are some companies that have marketed that they can, like Core Scientific.

251
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You got to give Core a lot of credit.

252
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They're very early to investing into this data center pivot.

253
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and they've always claimed that they designed their Bitcoin facilities to be dual compatible.

254
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But I haven't seen evidence of it yet.

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I know they've been already, I think they have stuff online with the AI now, but I haven't

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seen any evidence.

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They haven't shown how they took that existing Bitcoin mine and just took out the miners

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and put in the AI racks.

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and fundamentally there's like yeah if you design a site to do both uh just like from mechanically

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from like what has to go into the site you're either overpaying if it's being used as bitcoin

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mining you're either overpaying on the infrastructure to make a dual compatible

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or if you you know and you know if you don't get the ai going there the hbc compute then you just

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like way overpaid um or you know or they did the opposite like they didn't make it dual compatible

264
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and now they have to gut the whole thing i mean some of the the bones of some of these sites you

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know the land the land is you know not going to change if it can it can be dual compatible

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sometimes the buildings like the buildings sell they can be gut the internals of the building and

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redo it. I think now though, there are some companies, like when I think of some sites that

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I don't know if as a matter of fact, if they're dual compatible, but like, like a HUD-H Vega site

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in Texas, like they, they built that as a hydro site with like server, you know, rack mounts for

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hydro mining. So that hydro will have a lot in common with say like hydro GPU compute. And so I'd

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imagine a lot of that infrastructure might be dual compatible. But I still would recommend and

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who's my money, you know, I'd be building portable, like if you have a piece of land that you can put

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fiber into for the bandwidth needs and networking demands of AI, like build it, build a portable

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Bitcoin mining stack, like transformers and containers, like just get a good quality product

275
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that's going to operate well.

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And then get your AI stuff going

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and then just move the Bitcoin load off

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like when you need to.

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Just sell it, remove it, put it on a new site.

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And there are companies like I think

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that appear to me to be doing that strategy now.

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Like I think Giga Energy might be trying

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to do that kind of strategy

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because they'll build these like,

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they're like a competitor to us in the sense,

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you know we build similar bitcoin mining systems but you know they're they're they're they're going

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out and getting these like projects like maybe i don't know what the sizes are but like 10 plus

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megawatts maybe 25 projects getting it started with bitcoin mining and if i was them you know

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that that and it has like if it's in a strategic location where you could get fiber and like

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have someone then come in and and buy it up for ai compute that's great now you can just move all

291
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all that stuff you put down and you really haven't lost a lot of money.

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Like you haven't sunk a lot of capital.

293
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I think I remember CleanSpark doing that.

294
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It's just sort of an anchor for that AI, right?

295
00:26:00,951 --> 00:26:05,731
So just to reiterate that, to understand your thoughts, right?

296
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So you bring Bitcoin mining somewhere.

297
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You secure all the energy, right?

298
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Because at the end of the day, that's what investors are interested in.

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They don't want energy in five years.

300
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they want I don't know 500 megawatts tomorrow right yeah and Bitcoin mining can secure that

301
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relatively easily and deploy it really really fast and so then when you have it and you can

302
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actually draw that power because that's what the utility wants from you right they want you to then

303
00:26:33,131 --> 00:26:37,091
also please take that power not just announce that you could potentially at some point

304
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then you make yourself a good friend that also likely to give you a lot more power in the future right so in that sense Bitcoin mining is anchoring that And if you can do that with cheap machines

305
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maybe even, I don't know, run at 80% uptime

306
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and shave off the peaks for the utility

307
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and get a really good deal.

308
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There's a lot of things that can be done there.

309
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And I think that's also what the majority of these old units

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are going to be used for.

311
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But then I agree with you.

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like why if I was a shareholder in one of these big miners and they would be building tier four

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data centers and then be putting I don't know m50s in them I'd be like what are you what are

314
00:27:18,361 --> 00:27:25,521
you doing like that makes zero sense um but yeah it's what really stuck out to me from from what

315
00:27:25,521 --> 00:27:33,081
you said earlier was also that you have a lot of these um gas and oil companies reaching out to you

316
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What do you think changed that?

317
00:27:34,661 --> 00:27:38,081
Do they reach out to you and ask about AI too?

318
00:27:38,661 --> 00:27:40,621
Can we just do AI on this oil field?

319
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What do you think changed from, I don't know, maybe three years ago

320
00:27:45,701 --> 00:27:52,941
that they now approach you for Bitcoin mining solutions on their oil fields?

321
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I think in general, in the broadest sense,

322
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just because we're getting more bigger oil companies now

323
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than we were in the past too, like publicly traded ones.

324
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Even there's one right now we're working with in the US.

325
00:28:09,201 --> 00:28:11,821
They're pretty decent, well-known name,

326
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and they're self-mining Bitcoin.

327
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So they just did a pilot with us and are expanding it.

328
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I think one of the biggest things that stands is

329
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I do believe that whole, like when the ETFs started,

330
00:28:26,521 --> 00:28:27,481
a lot of the institutes,

331
00:28:27,481 --> 00:28:33,721
there there's well i have a lot of like criticism towards some of the institutional adoption stuff

332
00:28:33,721 --> 00:28:42,121
that's been happening uh i would give it a lot of credit on making uh making it more palatable

333
00:28:42,121 --> 00:28:46,521
right like for other institutions like other public companies on bitcoin dressing it yeah

334
00:28:47,561 --> 00:28:56,361
yes the the suit coiners have made it palatable for other suit coiners and that definitely has

335
00:28:56,361 --> 00:29:03,001
an effect because you know especially these bigger oil companies uh who would come to us and we quote

336
00:29:03,001 --> 00:29:08,041
them now a lot of time they still want us to they still want like a no capital option like you know

337
00:29:08,041 --> 00:29:12,681
we provide everything and they give us gas for free or something and we won't do that but uh

338
00:29:13,561 --> 00:29:20,201
with the ones coming to us for quotes often you get like a mid-level engineer who runs the numbers

339
00:29:20,201 --> 00:29:25,401
he's like this is the best solution for this facility but then he gets stopped by legal or

340
00:29:25,401 --> 00:29:33,081
management, right? Like someone above him. I think that legal stop and all that like risk management

341
00:29:33,081 --> 00:29:41,081
side of it. And of course, like there's been a lot more tools and like credibility, even on the

342
00:29:41,081 --> 00:29:45,681
custody side, right? Like, you know, of course, Coinbase is like one of the suit favorites,

343
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not a favorite of mine, but a suit favorite. There's other companies like, like say that oil

344
00:29:51,461 --> 00:29:57,641
company we're working with who whose management actually approved like the call it mid-level

345
00:29:57,641 --> 00:30:03,781
engineers project plans uh they're an interesting group because they're they they're actually using

346
00:30:03,781 --> 00:30:09,221
like they're not even using custodians they're using like unchained capital for treasury management

347
00:30:09,221 --> 00:30:15,781
so they're they're more hardcore uh which is sort of surprising for a company the size that they are

348
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because usually we just see that with the smaller companies and but even I can tell you like when I

349
00:30:24,241 --> 00:30:28,921
started and had a lot of these small projects with a lot of small oil companies

350
00:30:28,921 --> 00:30:37,021
now given that there's more than just a custodian that they could use like a coinbase or a kraken

351
00:30:37,021 --> 00:30:44,061
or you know whoever's the best in the jurisdiction is now that they have like these multi-sig like

352
00:30:44,061 --> 00:30:50,701
partners like onramp bitcoin is a good group uh i just met with them the other day yeah uh

353
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unchained of course yeah they're great uh unchained of course has been around for a long time

354
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they they've helped pioneer that model and that gives the that gives people a middle ground where

355
00:31:02,741 --> 00:31:08,021
you're not just giving it you know trusting the custodian which for a lot of corporations are just

356
00:31:08,021 --> 00:31:13,861
fine with um but if they do want a little bit more self-control and you know not have risk on

357
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on the capacity side like they can use like those you know unpained and like so i just had a lot of

358
00:31:21,401 --> 00:31:28,381
infrastructure yeah yeah i was just saying i i just had the the guys from sangha renewables on

359
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as well and they're also working with total energies which is a giant in the energy space

360
00:31:33,681 --> 00:31:39,781
you know the ngs of the world um they announced that they're doing something in brazil like

361
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and do you think maybe

362
00:31:42,521 --> 00:31:43,861
I don't know if this is a bit

363
00:31:43,861 --> 00:31:46,661
reaching too far but I feel like

364
00:31:46,661 --> 00:31:47,541
the

365
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story

366
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or the public

367
00:31:52,721 --> 00:31:54,641
image of oil and gas companies over

368
00:31:54,641 --> 00:31:56,561
the last 10 years has not been the greatest

369
00:31:56,561 --> 00:31:58,621
right so do you think

370
00:31:58,621 --> 00:32:00,961
that the that fact

371
00:32:00,961 --> 00:32:02,701
coupled with hey we

372
00:32:02,701 --> 00:32:04,701
might as well associate ourselves with Bitcoin

373
00:32:04,701 --> 00:32:06,781
now you know can't get much worse

374
00:32:06,781 --> 00:32:08,461
is that a factor or not

375
00:32:08,461 --> 00:32:18,021
no i don't think so um yeah i mean of course oil and gas companies have been uh

376
00:32:18,021 --> 00:32:28,021
known as you know considered a negative like in from a marketing and like news level you know

377
00:32:28,021 --> 00:32:35,401
view for quite a long time um of course that the oil price is going up due to some like you know

378
00:32:35,401 --> 00:32:45,561
middle east drama uh people are remembering how important oil is and at least you know um anyone

379
00:32:45,561 --> 00:32:50,041
rational about it understands that you know you can't really you can't really do anything without

380
00:32:50,041 --> 00:32:57,601
crude oil and and that especially crude oil and its byproducts but i wouldn't say that i wouldn't

381
00:32:57,601 --> 00:33:02,181
say there's a huge element of like oil companies being like you know they've been demonized for so

382
00:33:02,181 --> 00:33:08,261
long and let's uh you know like bitcoin's not going to make it that much worse you know they're

383
00:33:08,261 --> 00:33:14,901
actually they're actually pretty you probably actually won't find a higher concentration of

384
00:33:14,901 --> 00:33:20,641
environmentalists in any other industry than oil and gas because they all have especially with all

385
00:33:20,641 --> 00:33:28,721
the all the scrutiny in north america especially and in europe uh for like the you know uh northern

386
00:33:28,721 --> 00:33:36,841
european companies like they actually invest a lot in environmental remediation and they employ a lot

387
00:33:36,841 --> 00:33:43,941
of environmental professionals so i have to get their numbers straight yeah yeah yeah and i mean

388
00:33:43,941 --> 00:33:49,421
like oil and gas folks to see bitcoin mining like the ones that are thinking about it correctly like

389
00:33:49,421 --> 00:33:56,121
they see it as a not just like an economic win versus some alternative like you know flaring gas

390
00:33:56,121 --> 00:34:02,321
of course you don't have a payout like you never make any money uh but uh even though not every

391
00:34:02,321 --> 00:34:10,101
flare is a the right spot to put a bitcoin mine um it's it's pretty much irrefutable at this point

392
00:34:10,101 --> 00:34:15,201
that it's still a better thing for the for emissions uh putting it through an engine than

393
00:34:15,201 --> 00:34:20,541
through a flare and it's and it's definitely more responsible right like you're you're monetizing

394
00:34:20,541 --> 00:34:27,701
the energy and you're basically creating jobs. You might not even create a lot of jobs

395
00:34:27,701 --> 00:34:35,121
in the oil company, like operations or maintenance. You're upstream of that. Like my company,

396
00:34:35,121 --> 00:34:42,361
you're creating jobs, buying it. And anything that generates a royalty, like in the cases where the

397
00:34:42,361 --> 00:34:48,481
gas being used is generating royalty versus not because it's being flared or it's sitting in the

398
00:34:48,481 --> 00:34:55,341
ground you're paying into that's going to the local government and it's it's building hospitals

399
00:34:55,341 --> 00:35:03,521
and road maintenance and all that stuff so that is like well understood like you know in the oil

400
00:35:03,521 --> 00:35:11,341
industry and it's yeah it's a better it's not without its challenges to like succeed at doing

401
00:35:11,341 --> 00:35:18,001
it but it's uh it is and you know and that's also why i've always advocated you know even we were

402
00:35:18,001 --> 00:35:23,041
talking about the grid stuff like whether you're on the grid or off the grid the bitcoin mining

403
00:35:23,041 --> 00:35:29,441
infrastructure should always be portable uh because it's the it's like the only and that

404
00:35:29,441 --> 00:35:35,021
this one got me into it it's like it's the only technology that can scale and be just moved wherever

405
00:35:35,021 --> 00:35:39,441
the energy is it just has almost no you don't need contracts because you have the global network

406
00:35:39,441 --> 00:35:45,121
buying the hash rate you don't need high internet you can just use a cell modem even on even on a

407
00:35:45,121 --> 00:35:52,581
gigawatt mine, you can use a spell modem. If you're using like proxies and local internet

408
00:35:52,581 --> 00:35:58,701
proxies to minimize what's going out to the internet. So it's just like unbelievably

409
00:35:58,701 --> 00:36:04,301
awesome that way. And that's why I think everyone who's invested in the portable infrastructure,

410
00:36:04,781 --> 00:36:07,961
whether you're on grid or off grid, it's really the only way to do it.

411
00:36:09,341 --> 00:36:13,921
This episode is sponsored by Hashbranch, the easiest way to mine Bitcoin in the US,

412
00:36:13,921 --> 00:36:16,921
Sourcing hardware and rack space usually is a mess.

413
00:36:17,101 --> 00:36:21,161
Bad deal structures, misaligned incentives and no visibility after deployment.

414
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I have placed tens of thousands of ASICs in partnership with Hashbranch.

415
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What I like most is that they cut through the noise.

416
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Fair pricing, aligned terms and access to hosting that actually works.

417
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418
00:36:40,521 --> 00:36:50,101
yeah i there yeah i'm i'm in i'm in two two fields because you said like it needs to be portable but

419
00:36:50,101 --> 00:36:56,041
then in a lot of jurisdictions you have to have a certain size to even qualify for the power

420
00:36:56,041 --> 00:37:01,701
contracts like if you take i don't know power at medium voltage you know you're not gonna get a one

421
00:37:01,701 --> 00:37:08,921
megawatt contract um and a lot of miners in ethiopia are feeling the pain of not really being

422
00:37:08,921 --> 00:37:14,221
movable right now because once you make all of those investments you know that sunk cost and you

423
00:37:14,221 --> 00:37:19,861
can't just move away from it on a dime so that there is that but i do agree with you that those

424
00:37:19,861 --> 00:37:26,681
miners who remain flexible and who can move and ship the machines elsewhere those are typically

425
00:37:26,681 --> 00:37:34,081
that's a big advantage to have because it's it's diversifying your risk 100 um steve i want to

426
00:37:34,081 --> 00:37:38,341
talk to you about the vfds i want to understand that more for maybe another five minutes and i

427
00:37:38,341 --> 00:37:45,001
want to do a quick rapid fire and then round out cool yeah let's do it all right so tell me those

428
00:37:45,001 --> 00:37:50,941
vfds that you mentioned explain to my audience please what those are and why they're important

429
00:37:50,941 --> 00:37:58,181
and why you guys are selling them focusing on them yeah they're part of the so i'll just

430
00:37:58,181 --> 00:38:04,921
yeah my my background personally is oil and gas production so oil and gas production facilities

431
00:38:04,921 --> 00:38:09,181
and optimization. That's what I was doing before Bitcoin. That's what I started doing in this

432
00:38:09,181 --> 00:38:17,101
company. So when I started upstream data, almost everything we build for off-grid has a package

433
00:38:17,101 --> 00:38:23,321
genset, like an after-ass generator in it. So our Bitcoin mining product might have it in the

434
00:38:23,321 --> 00:38:27,201
building with the Bitcoin mine, or it might be separate depending on the scope of the project.

435
00:38:28,401 --> 00:38:34,621
When I started wanting to, even though I'm straddling those two industries, like I said,

436
00:38:34,621 --> 00:38:39,701
all the people I have in the company are building both. So it's not like we have two different

437
00:38:39,701 --> 00:38:44,821
divisions. It's the same company doing the same stuff. We just shift the work to whichever is in

438
00:38:44,821 --> 00:38:49,601
demand. So all the machines we have, like manufacturing machines, all the people,

439
00:38:50,421 --> 00:38:57,321
they're completely liquid on both markets. So when I started adding to the oil field services

440
00:38:57,321 --> 00:39:03,461
side to get that market, which in hindsight, I think I was pretty smart because the oil price

441
00:39:03,461 --> 00:39:10,821
is going up and our business is going up with that. It started with generators. So instead of

442
00:39:10,821 --> 00:39:15,541
just making a dedicated generator with a Bitcoin mine, we started just making dedicated generators

443
00:39:15,541 --> 00:39:23,481
and selling those. We do buildings for Bitcoin mines. Now we do custom buildings for oil and gas

444
00:39:23,481 --> 00:39:30,041
companies that have nothing to do with even generators. We just built a 30-foot building

445
00:39:30,041 --> 00:39:37,341
for an oil storage like they're just putting oil like a bunch of field maintenance components like

446
00:39:37,341 --> 00:39:45,961
oil drums and stuff in the building um so i got into vfds because generally in the oil and gas

447
00:39:45,961 --> 00:39:53,881
industry as it is in many um the end user doesn't want to piece out every component from different

448
00:39:53,881 --> 00:39:59,161
suppliers they want someone to package everything like and serve it to them on a silver platter

449
00:39:59,161 --> 00:40:03,961
So people that sustain oil and gas operators

450
00:40:03,961 --> 00:40:18,332
who are interested in our generators because they gonna set up a well site with electric pumps and they need VFDs It a lot easier for us to get their business if we do the full meal deal right up to the pump

451
00:40:19,412 --> 00:40:27,332
Now, because I'm Canadian-based, I'm Canadian and sitting in Calgary, the oil and gas industry is

452
00:40:27,332 --> 00:40:33,692
extremely broad. We're not trying to tackle every basin. What I'm doing with oil and gas right now

453
00:40:33,692 --> 00:40:36,392
is all Canada and it's all heavy oil production.

454
00:40:37,492 --> 00:40:44,052
So anyone basically buying anything to drive artificial lift pumps,

455
00:40:44,052 --> 00:40:49,212
so ESPs for high volume oil and gas production,

456
00:40:49,612 --> 00:40:53,652
or like PCPs or pump jacks for low volume production.

457
00:40:54,632 --> 00:41:01,132
If we want to like get on their bids and get VFD sales or generator sales,

458
00:41:01,132 --> 00:41:06,912
the more we can offer them like as a full package, like the better.

459
00:41:07,152 --> 00:41:11,472
So we're, we're already selling like these VFDs that are a little small,

460
00:41:11,692 --> 00:41:15,592
just small modular VFD panels. Like they're only like three foot wide,

461
00:41:15,752 --> 00:41:18,352
you know, four foot tall that just sit on the stand.

462
00:41:19,092 --> 00:41:22,052
It's a very commodity business, a low margin.

463
00:41:23,752 --> 00:41:27,012
We're also doing like the more integrated building systems,

464
00:41:27,012 --> 00:41:29,812
like the MCC buildings. We're just sort of starting that.

465
00:41:29,812 --> 00:41:36,812
but between the generator packages the mcc packages the vfds whether they're modular or not

466
00:41:36,812 --> 00:41:43,152
it's sort of like i'm trying to build a full meal deal around oil and gas production and i say

467
00:41:43,152 --> 00:41:48,592
production i don't mean processing or midstream i'm not really we're going after the upstream oil

468
00:41:48,592 --> 00:41:53,732
and gas industry and that because that's also where bitcoin mining fits it doesn't really fit

469
00:41:53,732 --> 00:42:00,452
downstream so much. Just like on the grid. On the grid, you're downstream from the energy source,

470
00:42:00,452 --> 00:42:06,932
and that's why they're getting priced out. The Bitcoin mining stuff we do can go right to the

471
00:42:06,932 --> 00:42:15,092
wellhead. The generators that power the wellhead, it can actually do both. We can build a generator

472
00:42:15,092 --> 00:42:22,452
that powers the well site and a Bitcoin load, if you know what I mean. If you just think of the

473
00:42:22,452 --> 00:42:29,212
stack it's like we you know they have the they have the gas we provide the generator the buildings

474
00:42:29,212 --> 00:42:36,372
and enclosures for it everything power distributed in like low voltage switch gear and vfds uh we

475
00:42:36,372 --> 00:42:42,752
won't be supplying pumps because that's getting into artificial lift that's like downhole stuff

476
00:42:42,752 --> 00:42:47,952
and we're surface power but we're basically doing everything now on the surface like all everything

477
00:42:47,952 --> 00:42:53,712
everything from the gas to convert it to power to drive the well sites and mine bitcoin if that

478
00:42:53,712 --> 00:42:59,472
makes sense yeah so it all comes i mean how important just briefly follow-up question how

479
00:42:59,472 --> 00:43:05,552
important do you think it is that it all comes out of one hand and kind of has the chance to speak to

480
00:43:05,552 --> 00:43:12,672
each other because i understand the bitcoin mining load is flexible you have to control that somehow

481
00:43:12,672 --> 00:43:19,872
you have to adjust it according to how much power is available at any given second and i'm guessing

482
00:43:19,872 --> 00:43:26,972
that with if you just piece different manufacture like um parts together that there's a lot of

483
00:43:26,972 --> 00:43:33,592
friction and the advantage here would be for you guys to supply all of that as a package that is

484
00:43:33,592 --> 00:43:40,952
designed to do that specific thing yeah and i mean a lot of you know the companies that are really

485
00:43:40,952 --> 00:43:47,832
successful in oilfield services are the ones that have great services so they can support the product

486
00:43:47,832 --> 00:43:54,632
so like they you know um one issue with and i had this issue early it was upstream beta like

487
00:43:54,632 --> 00:43:59,912
you know when i was buying generators instead of building them ourselves and then a customer had a

488
00:43:59,912 --> 00:44:06,872
problem i'd have to work through this my supplier to troubleshoot and let's say it was a warranty

489
00:44:06,872 --> 00:44:13,352
requests to deal with that it was it's absolute nightmare it's it's the same thing in oil and gas

490
00:44:13,352 --> 00:44:17,992
there's going to be problems eventually like you know whether it's a quality problem out of our

491
00:44:17,992 --> 00:44:25,072
shop or an application problem how it's operated there's going to be something so you know when i

492
00:44:25,072 --> 00:44:30,912
started the vfd thing the first thing i did was hire vfd experts like he he's like one of the best

493
00:44:30,912 --> 00:44:35,692
in Canada because we can't support a VFD product without someone like him.

494
00:44:35,692 --> 00:44:39,852
And, you know, I hired other folks to train under him.

495
00:44:41,332 --> 00:44:43,352
So part of it is like the full meal deal.

496
00:44:43,432 --> 00:44:44,372
They want the package.

497
00:44:44,512 --> 00:44:45,612
They want the full bid.

498
00:44:46,152 --> 00:44:48,592
But the other thing is like being able to support the client.

499
00:44:49,072 --> 00:44:56,392
We also do, we build a lot of stuff under subcontract now.

500
00:44:56,392 --> 00:45:04,552
So like a lot of the buildings we build and even the VFD modular packages we're doing, they're actually not direct to customers.

501
00:45:04,652 --> 00:45:06,972
It's through a packager like Slumberjay.

502
00:45:07,952 --> 00:45:09,612
Slumberjay buys a lot of our buildings.

503
00:45:09,852 --> 00:45:12,312
They just started buying some of our VFDs.

504
00:45:14,292 --> 00:45:15,872
So we'll support them.

505
00:45:15,952 --> 00:45:18,352
They'll support their customers, basically.

506
00:45:18,612 --> 00:45:23,912
And that's sort of a nice thing for us because we don't have the – we're not spread out.

507
00:45:23,912 --> 00:45:29,352
I don't have a service job in every basin, like oil and gas production basin.

508
00:45:30,532 --> 00:45:35,012
I mean, it's on the roadmap, but it's probably a lot longer.

509
00:45:35,272 --> 00:45:37,032
It's going to take me longer than I want.

510
00:45:37,752 --> 00:45:39,112
That's just the way things happen.

511
00:45:39,832 --> 00:45:44,732
But we have two manufacturing facilities now, one in Canada, one in the US.

512
00:45:45,372 --> 00:45:48,152
The US one isn't going to touch oil and gas yet.

513
00:45:48,692 --> 00:45:51,552
They're focused on Bitcoin mining, like hash generators,

514
00:45:51,552 --> 00:45:54,152
because a lot of it there is also training,

515
00:45:55,152 --> 00:45:56,892
learning how to build these systems.

516
00:45:57,392 --> 00:45:59,412
And then when they're like optimized,

517
00:45:59,772 --> 00:46:00,632
then I'll start adding,

518
00:46:01,912 --> 00:46:03,952
branching out there like I did in Canada.

519
00:46:04,312 --> 00:46:06,392
Because Canada, we're a lot more robust as a company.

520
00:46:06,532 --> 00:46:09,092
We spread out into oil and Bitcoin

521
00:46:09,092 --> 00:46:11,672
and a few different product lines.

522
00:46:12,832 --> 00:46:15,152
I'll do the same thing in the US

523
00:46:15,152 --> 00:46:18,152
once we have more of a foothold,

524
00:46:18,772 --> 00:46:19,632
if you know what I mean,

525
00:46:19,632 --> 00:46:21,552
the personnel and the capabilities.

526
00:46:22,652 --> 00:46:23,012
How

527
00:46:23,012 --> 00:46:25,972
unconceivable or conceivable

528
00:46:25,972 --> 00:46:28,092
is it for you guys

529
00:46:28,092 --> 00:46:29,812
to start building your own

530
00:46:29,812 --> 00:46:30,492
miner?

531
00:46:32,692 --> 00:46:34,112
Oh, like the actual hardware?

532
00:46:35,112 --> 00:46:35,392
Yeah.

533
00:46:35,792 --> 00:46:37,832
I mean, it would be...

534
00:46:37,832 --> 00:46:39,972
I know ASIC and chip level

535
00:46:39,972 --> 00:46:41,792
design and shit is super difficult,

536
00:46:41,792 --> 00:46:43,932
but all of these machines

537
00:46:43,932 --> 00:46:46,012
that come to market are designed for always

538
00:46:46,012 --> 00:46:48,012
on use at some

539
00:46:48,012 --> 00:46:54,252
point in time. And then we use them in a way that they're not designed. So I'm just waiting for that

540
00:46:54,252 --> 00:47:01,592
application where people say, hey, we have this specific use case. That's what we want to build

541
00:47:01,592 --> 00:47:12,372
an ASIC for. Yeah. I mean, the way I look at things is like you only build in-house, right?

542
00:47:12,372 --> 00:47:19,932
what you know what is or what's the thing you buy from your neighbor if your neighbor does it cheaper

543
00:47:19,932 --> 00:47:24,092
than you you buy it from your neighbor right so like i can't remember what the actual saying is

544
00:47:24,092 --> 00:47:28,632
but you don't build in-house but your neighbor can sell to you cheaper right you you just contract

545
00:47:28,632 --> 00:47:36,372
it out so in our stack right say in a generator package uh we have a lot of really competent good

546
00:47:36,372 --> 00:47:41,412
engine people like really technical really hands-on they understand how to troubleshoot engines

547
00:47:41,412 --> 00:47:46,852
especially natural gas engines and that's sort of a rare skill like it's not as common as like an

548
00:47:46,852 --> 00:47:53,652
automotive engine right uh because you know you're dealing with variable fuels and conditions um

549
00:47:54,692 --> 00:48:04,372
the you know like i'm more thinking rather than like integrate in-house the asics uh like would

550
00:48:04,372 --> 00:48:09,332
we invest in that like would we hire the right people to develop that or would i hire the right

551
00:48:09,332 --> 00:48:15,652
people to develop engines? Because we don't build the engine in-house, we buy it from a packager,

552
00:48:15,652 --> 00:48:25,172
like PSI at a Chicago or Mesa at a Casper, Wyoming. Will we do that instead of buying it from them?

553
00:48:25,812 --> 00:48:30,212
Maybe in the future, if there was a point in time where it was better for us to take that

554
00:48:30,212 --> 00:48:37,412
in-house than to rely on their product. To answer your questions more concisely,

555
00:48:37,412 --> 00:48:42,112
there's no plan to do ASIC design and supply.

556
00:48:42,672 --> 00:48:47,112
I'll give you one example that the way I think about it is, say,

557
00:48:47,832 --> 00:48:49,712
who's it, Bitdeer, right?

558
00:48:50,752 --> 00:48:54,452
Bitdeer has developed their own, you know, former Tihon Wu,

559
00:48:54,612 --> 00:48:56,892
former Bitmain, you know, they know that business.

560
00:48:57,052 --> 00:48:58,272
They've started that business.

561
00:48:58,272 --> 00:49:00,192
Like they have the steel miner.

562
00:49:01,252 --> 00:49:04,572
At least by all reports, they don't sell very many externally.

563
00:49:05,372 --> 00:49:06,872
And they're using them in-house.

564
00:49:07,412 --> 00:49:09,312
Not according to plan, but yes.

565
00:49:09,552 --> 00:49:09,692
Yeah.

566
00:49:11,132 --> 00:49:11,612
Yeah.

567
00:49:11,752 --> 00:49:13,372
And I mean, it's also market driven.

568
00:49:13,632 --> 00:49:15,572
Like no one's selling a lot right now.

569
00:49:15,792 --> 00:49:21,992
Like Bitmain, MicroBT, Kanan, you know, I don't think they're doing great on new hardware sales.

570
00:49:22,692 --> 00:49:26,692
But yes, there's an element of that that's affected, say, BitDeer's plans.

571
00:49:26,692 --> 00:49:34,452
But if you were building something that you can sell to the public, but you're only using it in-house, that's a very bad sign.

572
00:49:34,452 --> 00:49:37,732
when I look at an infrastructure company

573
00:49:37,732 --> 00:49:40,692
because you can't price it to sell.

574
00:49:41,852 --> 00:49:43,632
You have to use it yourself

575
00:49:43,632 --> 00:49:47,172
because if you build something for yourself,

576
00:49:47,252 --> 00:49:48,892
you should be able to put a price on it

577
00:49:48,892 --> 00:49:50,572
that's better to just sell it

578
00:49:50,572 --> 00:49:52,792
and return your investment and do more stuff.

579
00:49:53,812 --> 00:49:56,832
That's going back to that thing I bought on that saying,

580
00:49:57,012 --> 00:49:58,032
like don't build in-house,

581
00:49:58,132 --> 00:50:00,872
but your neighbor will do better at lower cost.

582
00:50:00,872 --> 00:50:04,212
For them, it's optionality, right?

583
00:50:04,452 --> 00:50:04,892
Yes.

584
00:50:05,392 --> 00:50:12,852
But they're also selling a lot of their used machines to make space for AI and for their own seal miners.

585
00:50:13,492 --> 00:50:15,112
But yeah, anyway, sorry, I interrupted you.

586
00:50:16,852 --> 00:50:18,112
No, I mean, I know what you mean.

587
00:50:18,192 --> 00:50:18,772
And you're right.

588
00:50:19,152 --> 00:50:25,832
It's sort of like, you know, we build half generators and then people put those machines in our buildings.

589
00:50:27,812 --> 00:50:32,952
We will put our own half generators to work on different contracts with oil companies.

590
00:50:32,952 --> 00:50:38,912
it's not how we're scaling our business we do that as a trial basis you know I talked about

591
00:50:38,912 --> 00:50:46,032
not wanting to compete with our customers as well but just to be blunt there's more money

592
00:50:46,032 --> 00:50:54,092
and a faster return on investment for us to sell to sell the equipment and if we can't sell it

593
00:50:54,092 --> 00:51:00,052
because the market is city then we'll have more reason to use it in-house like to just go direct

594
00:51:00,052 --> 00:51:05,832
to do deals and but as soon as the market corrects like the objective is to get the max value out of

595
00:51:05,832 --> 00:51:12,152
you know the productivity of the company and that's always selling externally um generally

596
00:51:12,152 --> 00:51:18,872
yeah makes sense steve you're already way over time let's do a quick of quick round of rapid fire

597
00:51:18,872 --> 00:51:25,732
you ready all right yeah go ahead okay cool number one flare gas or grid power which one has more

598
00:51:25,732 --> 00:51:26,272
upside?

599
00:51:28,272 --> 00:51:29,992
Going into future flare gas.

600
00:51:30,912 --> 00:51:32,012
Coldest temperature

601
00:51:32,012 --> 00:51:33,812
you've ever deployed a

602
00:51:33,812 --> 00:51:35,732
hash generator in?

603
00:51:37,712 --> 00:51:39,912
Northern Alberta, sort of like north of

604
00:51:39,912 --> 00:51:41,632
Edmonton, it gets to minus

605
00:51:41,632 --> 00:51:42,932
55 degrees C.

606
00:51:43,592 --> 00:51:44,192
And the hottest?

607
00:51:45,912 --> 00:51:47,012
West Texas.

608
00:51:47,812 --> 00:51:49,912
Has Bitcoin mining ever been harder

609
00:51:49,912 --> 00:51:51,192
than right now?

610
00:51:51,192 --> 00:52:01,872
from a unit profitability no from an infrastructure supply chain stack it's pretty good right now

611
00:52:01,872 --> 00:52:05,772
are any oil companies bitcoiners yet

612
00:52:05,772 --> 00:52:15,212
yes we have many many customers that are yes one thing every miner should know about running in a

613
00:52:15,212 --> 00:52:16,372
remote location?

614
00:52:19,292 --> 00:52:22,492
I have professional help.

615
00:52:22,992 --> 00:52:26,272
If you don't know how to maintain an engine, make sure you find something that does.

616
00:52:26,492 --> 00:52:27,672
You're going to fail miserably.

617
00:52:28,872 --> 00:52:29,552
Loved it.

618
00:52:29,852 --> 00:52:31,032
I have to commend you.

619
00:52:31,092 --> 00:52:35,232
You've been able to answer these questions the quickest out of all my guests so far.

620
00:52:36,812 --> 00:52:43,832
Do you want to give people a quick handoff on where to find more about your company in

621
00:52:43,832 --> 00:52:45,292
Canada, a company in the US,

622
00:52:47,012 --> 00:52:47,812
socials,

623
00:52:47,872 --> 00:52:48,552
all of that good stuff.

624
00:52:49,772 --> 00:52:51,732
Yeah, I mean, Upstream Data is the

625
00:52:51,732 --> 00:52:53,572
company name. We're in Wyoming

626
00:52:53,572 --> 00:52:55,192
manufacturing in Alberta.

627
00:52:56,192 --> 00:52:57,872
And if you want to reach me,

628
00:52:58,652 --> 00:52:59,792
that's probably best.

629
00:53:00,752 --> 00:53:01,752
I ignore LinkedIn.

630
00:53:02,012 --> 00:53:02,952
It's full of trash.

631
00:53:04,452 --> 00:53:05,872
So, yeah,

632
00:53:05,872 --> 00:53:07,692
at SCBarber on X.

633
00:53:08,552 --> 00:53:09,752
Awesome. Steve,

634
00:53:09,852 --> 00:53:11,852
you've been a great guest

635
00:53:11,852 --> 00:53:13,312
to interview. I hope we do this again.

636
00:53:13,312 --> 00:53:15,192
I know you're a wealth of knowledge.

637
00:53:15,432 --> 00:53:20,172
Thanks again for coming on, spending some time that I know is scarce for you.

638
00:53:20,572 --> 00:53:23,272
So yeah, appreciate it very much and hope to see you soon.

639
00:53:23,452 --> 00:53:23,772
Thank you.

640
00:53:25,012 --> 00:53:25,692
You're welcome.

641
00:53:25,792 --> 00:53:26,552
Thank you very much, Jesse.

642
00:53:26,772 --> 00:53:26,992
All right.

643
00:53:27,052 --> 00:53:27,232
Bye.

644
00:53:27,432 --> 00:53:27,612
Cheers.