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What is up guys? Welcome back to Bitcoin Audible. We have got the roundtable back, unfortunately, without mechanic. I really wanted to get it. I do get it. And in fact, I think I mentioned that he had stepped down from the ocean on the podcast.

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And I thought I had heard that or I had seen something about maybe him stepping back or something.

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Maybe there's a sabbatical.

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I don't know.

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But it was just announced that he was stepping down.

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He was no longer with Ocean like today.

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And this is a couple of days after we've recorded this episode.

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So whatever I heard was not entirely accurate or I thought it was a total.

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He left and he hadn't yet.

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But today, apparently, he has stepped down from Ocean.

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and unfortunately, I get it.

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Again, he's probably just kind of stepping away from all social things

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and trying to figure out what he's focusing on,

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but it would have been nice to have him on just to kind of hash out

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the aftermath of all of this since we've been talking about BIP-110 so much.

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Steve, though, is with us, and I thought he had a lot of really fun things to add,

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and his take on it was always really interesting because he was always in support of it,

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and he doesn't even walk back anything he's said.

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You know, he's, you know, consistent as Steve always has been.

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And then Jeff and I kind of push back and give our view

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because we mostly aligned, but it was a really good episode.

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But I think just being able to hash out our differences of opinion

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on the way forward and, you know, the past or whatever,

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I thought, I don't know, it was a really great conversation.

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And we, of course, talked about a bunch of other stuff as well.

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But I think you guys will like it.

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our sponsor Bitbox

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they make the Bitbox O2

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the newest one Nova

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is a fantastic little hardware wallet

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I am working on an episode

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but if you have not

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update your firmware

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there was a USB

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so with all the red teaming a couple of things

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have come out the one that's

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a bit serious

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the one that's pretty serious they call it a very critical

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bug was the

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USB bug

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It's not something like you're going to get remote attacked or anything like that. Nothing's in danger if you haven't done anything. But it means that if you plug it into a malicious device and you have a malicious software and you could actually be tricked to downloading and installing malicious firmware.

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and because of this USB bug,

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they would actually be able to accomplish this.

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And so it is recommended that you do very carefully.

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Again, this is not like an emergency,

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but very carefully go.

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It's called like Dixense, D-I-X-E-N-S-C-E, I think.

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I can't remember exactly.

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I'll have the link in the show notes

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to the latest firmware.

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If you're on the Nova, this wasn't an issue.

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It's an older version of Bitbox.

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but again no um critical like i have to go out and do this now but just know the next time you're

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using it or you want to update be very very careful and make sure you're getting the proper

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firmware from bitbox themselves i do have a discount code if you were trying to get a nova

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or actually any bitbox uh and i also recommend no affiliate or anything but i really recommend

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crypto cloaks they have these uh really cool in fact i've got i've got a case somewhere around

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here. So they've got these, these really dope little cases with like a couple different things

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on. You can get like a hotel and whatnot, but this is the, the Nova and just slides,

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slides right in there. It's really cool. Uh, so shout out to Crypto Clokes. Love those guys.

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They build, they make really cool stuff. And to note, uh, we will be looking for a fourth person

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for the round table and we may actually start. It was kind of our intent originally to cycle

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people in and out and, or have a guest every time, but it just kind of got difficult to

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manage all that. So we will be reaching out to people to see if maybe we have a semi-permanent

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fourth person, but regardless, we intend to have at least four, maybe even five people going forward

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to have a decent group with a broader conversation because you get the same people every time and

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to get a different group and a broader conversation on all the things that are going on.

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And with that, let's get into today's roundtable.

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This is myself, my brother Jeff, and Steve, The Aftermath.

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Maybe actually, just in case we don't, can you give your rough assessment and your thought of BIP 110 and what you wanted to see?

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Yeah, I hoped that the Bit.10 software could have won. I thought it was a better set of

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consensus rules And I really wanted to see you know core kind of like take a shot and you know make them have to step back a little bit But mostly I just thought the off return the data carrier size I thought that was just a superior set of consensus rules

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And I just wanted to see that adopted.

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um having lost the soft fork um yeah i think it's uh kind of just um

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to to expect luke and and mechanic and that crew to kind of like hang in

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to the you know legacy mothership core whatever and just continually like fight and be a dissenting

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voice or whatever is just a little, it's wishful thinking because from their perspective,

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they tried what they could.

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And it was clear that the community kind of didn't want what they were doing.

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And they didn't, they had been trying for a long time, you know, from Luke's perspective,

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he's just been, he's felt like his power had been reducing and reducing over a series of

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what, like 10 years, like especially over the last five years.

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And so I think it's just kind of like, yeah, that was never going to happen.

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Like they were never going to just like stay and continually be a small and less powerful

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dissenting voice in the camp.

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And I'm glad they forked off for two reasons.

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Like one is, and when I say they, I mean like me too.

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I mean, I'm not selling anything, but I'm wishing them all the best, and I'm, like, helping them every way I can to, like, build a good fork or whatever.

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um and so for two reasons like uh i'm i'm happy to see them start their own project you know with

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kind of ocean like datum stuff and they're the very beginning and um a shot at you know

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much better minor decentralization um it's a new experiment to me and who better than luke

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to like lead that experiment like i think that's great and also in terms of like you know

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still on the mothership, maybe Luke wasn't the right leader of the dissenting voice of

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core. Like if you want there to be like a, um, a group there that's pushing back against core,

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maybe changing too much and maybe not listening to what the community wants enough and stuff like

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that. Uh, maybe Luke isn't the right person to, um, be the head of that group. I'm sure he,

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he feels like he wasn't so maybe somebody old new step up i mean maybe it'd be jeff

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you know i i think it's really unfortunate that they're that they're not going to be there in that

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in the same way i think to me the growth of ocean and the growth of support for filters and knots

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and all of that that we were seeing was just like just required patience like i think i think if you

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were patient and you let the growth of datum the growth of knots and and just decentralized filter

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adoption be the thing that was you know just slowly trickling in getting bigger whatever

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um you know slowly snowballing um that that was really the the better thing because no there is

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no perfectly even you know like the core devs will tell you like you know well you can't stop

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all of it we can we can do it another way you know and so so like how are you gonna stop me

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yeah the whole goal is to have to have a a culture that just is not welcoming to the sort of spam

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right and so if you're block blocking it or making it difficult to get these things into

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the mempool, then that's a decent approach to all of this.

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And so having different mempool implementations, having different filters, having different

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nodes, all of that, I think, is decentralization, right?

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Like you let the network and the network node runners decide.

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And you let the miners make their own templates and also decide.

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Um, and so, so I thought that that, like, I was very, I was very excited about how that was going. And then when they announced BIP 110, I was kind of like, okay, I remember having a conversation with a mechanic. He was like, well, we tried it this way and it wasn't working. So we're, we're going to try it at, you know, we're going to try to soft fork or whatever. We're going to try to fork it off as, you know, and do it that way.

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but I just remember thinking like that doesn't

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like I feel like what we

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were doing we had some momentum

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like there was more and more adoption

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of knots it was more and more adoption of you know datum and whatever like ocean was growing like I felt like all that was we were getting good signals Hey we winning It just slow And and now it just feels like the whole thing was sort of a like I said before like a foot

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gun, like, you know, but the thing is, is that I'm not, I would not be a good spokesperson for

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this sort of thing because I don't have like, like you need somebody like Luke, but that also

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has, you know,

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I mean, honestly, Mechanic and Luke

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together were a pretty good team

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because Mechanic's very good

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at, you know, explaining

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things and talking with people.

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And Luke is not

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great at that, but he's

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clearly understands Bitcoin,

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right? I don't know. I don't know what's

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going to fill that hole. And maybe they aren't

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gone-gone, but...

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Steve, you mentioned that

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it felt like

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they had tried for, you know,

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10 years or whatever and they were losing relevance or whatever is i kind of felt the opposite um

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yeah or similar to what jeff was just saying is that i feel like the last two years

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it's had nothing but momentum in that direction and i also think in fact one of the when we've

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started the very first conversations about BIP 110.

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I, I use the analogy, right?

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I, the mechanic and I went back and forth on this show for some little span or

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whatever, and I really kind of felt this the entire time.

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I still, I mean, I feel like in hindsight, I'm justified in that thinking in,

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you know, whatever sense that what I believe is what happens, whether or not the,

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you know,

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all the details or whatever or actual confirmation or not or if it's just me

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being able to say oh well this happened and i thought it was going to happen so obviously i'm

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right about everything you know confirmation bias and all that stuff but um was that it was just an

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overplay of the hand you know it was going all in when you had your first you know two jacks

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there was actual like we have never like this is the most significant thing is ocean was growing

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and we had 20 percent from 0.1 to 0.2 percent no from 0.1 ocean was nothing before bit.1 10 to a

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full two percent because of bit.1 10 well it was one but you guys are talking about before bit.1

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10 was announced right so in my perspective bit.1 10 is what made the huge jump in knots and

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and ocean like so you're talking about 2024 knots growing the growth in knots happened

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before bip 110 it happened after the opera turn stuff and before bip 110 bip 110 it did take

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another run after the announcement of the software yeah but it was not the bulk of the adoption of

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knots we were i felt like we were in a good position for a um and i mean we as in like the

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entire Bitcoin network, we've never had an alternative client get 20% of the network,

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even 10% of the network. That was a huge deal. Like I've always been like, Bitcoin was great.

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You know, like it's like an alternative client that not as great as alternative client, but it

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was like, they were always like 20 nodes out of 10,000, you know, it was just always tiny.

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And I felt like that was a huge win. Like, you know, we were playing poker and, uh, and I,

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And it's not even because like, oh, I was all for Bit.10 or something.

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I just mean in the sense of like competing clients.

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I think it's important to have differences of opinion about the direction that Bitcoin

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can go or should go.

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And that actually prevents any one group or perspective from dominating.

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And I think that's the best thing.

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What we want is the lowest common denominator of agreement to actually occur, to actually

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happen on the chain.

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And I think forking away from that puts perspective or puts opinions back in one pool. It takes the, you know, that 10% defiance and turns it into 2% defiance, which can just easily be ignored.

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yeah we it's just like it's just like when when they create you know was it gab or one of these

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like social networks or whatever and or even even nostor right like what happened is that

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like bitcoin twitter took a huge hit right like like a lot of the saner voices left because there

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was a a saner place to have conversations and it so what it does is it leaves the normies

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without the...

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The counter-opinion.

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Right.

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And it's not that I'm...

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I'm not saying we should all stay on Twitter,

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but the thing is that Bitcoin

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has the monetary network effect.

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It is the thing that's...

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There only going to be one Bitcoin So having different implementations and people the minority can win in Bitcoin That what literally like we beat all of the corporate you know big what was the New York

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agreement or whatever, the big influencers during the block size war. And now maybe, I don't know if

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that was like, were the small blockers technically a minority?

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I don't know if that's true.

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But the node runners were the people that did not have the most,

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like, the most political influence in the network.

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Over institutional power.

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Right, over institutional power.

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That's a good way to say it.

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And so, you know, Roger Verr was sure that he was going to win.

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He had all the miners.

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He had, you know, Coinbase and all these other things.

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and then they didn't.

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So if you don't have, you know,

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the like an intolerant minority

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that can, you know, keep Bitcoin on the right path,

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I don't know.

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I think it's bad for Bitcoin.

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I do too.

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And, you know, a good way to have kept that

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would have been to like come out

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really in support of BIP 110.

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I mean, that was part of the reason

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that I was like so for it

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is because I wanted them to stay.

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Not only did I want them to stay,

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I wanted them to be like the dominant voice

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of like protocol changes.

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I wanted to fire core.

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You know, that's why I went so hard for BIP-110.

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I would prefer that too.

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But at the same time, I never felt,

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and maybe it's ignorance.

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I don't know.

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I genuinely never felt incredibly,

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I would have been okay, certainly,

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if BIP-110 had happened, you know, if everybody had supported it,

221
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that would have been great.

222
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The problem is I felt very comfortable adopting knots, adopting filters,

223
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you know, those sorts of things.

224
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And I don't see why just the slow and steady promotion of those things

225
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doesn't solve the problem just as well.

226
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And maybe, again, maybe I'm stupid, you know.

227
00:17:50,339 --> 00:17:54,479
Well, I mean, because when you say there's like a slow and steady adoption,

228
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of filters and stuff.

229
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And I agree.

230
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And then Core fires back and blows out data carrier size.

231
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It was pretty clear that Core was going to keep firing back against whatever Knott's

232
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was trying to do with their filters and stuff.

233
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You know, that's why they went after consensus.

234
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I mean, Core is very clear that they do not want people to have different filters.

235
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They want everybody to have the exact same filters.

236
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but they can't control that right right but that's what they want blowing out data carrier size does

237
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what to people running knots well they're more likely to be able to control it if everybody who

238
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disagrees forks off well it just floods the the network it potentially floods the network with a

239
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lot more stuff that they have to filter out i guess right okay the thing i aside from my

240
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philosophical agreement with the ideas of spam, my endless

241
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frustration with people saying that if you make the op return

242
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size small by consensus that you're censoring transactions,

243
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that God, that just just grew me, drew me crazy. And as I've

244
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said a billion times, but it doesn't seem to sink into

245
00:19:07,399 --> 00:19:11,099
anybody's brain, regardless of whether or not it's valid, or

246
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it's, it means that you're able to stop anything. And in fact,

247
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that's exactly how you know it's spam is because you can't just shrink the op return size and stop

248
00:19:20,899 --> 00:19:23,439
spam from happening because they can just stick it somewhere else because it has nothing to do

249
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with the fucking transaction but anyway um all that aside and my philosophical agreement with

250
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the idea that it must be a hardened explicitly purposed monetary protocol and the idea of just

251
00:19:36,819 --> 00:19:40,959
kind of like sticking in a bunch of places where just like put whatever the fuck you want here

252
00:19:40,959 --> 00:19:47,219
is really dumb. You'll always be able to do that. The idea of explicitly giving those places,

253
00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:55,119
I've always thought was a dumb path. That said, I've also never thought that that exact fight

254
00:19:55,119 --> 00:20:05,239
was existential. I tried to, I sat down with Luke and Chris and Mechanic and like two or three other

255
00:20:05,239 --> 00:20:11,519
people at a Plan B conference in El Salvador and we like hashed it out because I was disagreeing

256
00:20:11,519 --> 00:20:15,679
with all of them on this and they were like trying to make me feel, trying to convince me that this

257
00:20:15,679 --> 00:20:20,539
was an existential thing. And I was like, listen, I agree with so many of your perspectives or

258
00:20:20,539 --> 00:20:27,299
positions on like the general concept behind it. But like I'm, you know, I was always supposed to

259
00:20:27,299 --> 00:20:34,359
be worried about like the competition between normal transactions and spam while I was using

260
00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:38,699
Bitcoin every day and I would never have had a clue that any of this was happening if I hadn't

261
00:20:38,699 --> 00:20:43,939
gone to Twitter to read about the arguments or if I hadn't gone and done blockchain analysis.

262
00:20:43,939 --> 00:20:49,879
I use it every single day and I don't think about it at all. And there were only a

263
00:20:50,011 --> 00:20:56,971
like two or three very short spike periods in which it was truly meaningful. And I was like,

264
00:20:57,071 --> 00:21:00,551
what the hell? And then I would go find out that, you know, there was an ordinal thing happening

265
00:21:00,551 --> 00:21:07,811
during the happening, right? But I'll put all that aside. I never thought it was existential.

266
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And the only fight that I was truly concerned about and thought was really, really important

267
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was the decentralization of mining, was the block template problem.

268
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And I put that as at least an order of magnitude more important

269
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than whether or not we had any explicit or complete solution for spam.

270
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I also was not even slightly afraid of the Bit.10 rules.

271
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The more and more I looked into it, the more I was just like,

272
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okay, whatever, limit the size of a public key to a public key.

273
00:21:40,171 --> 00:21:41,871
Cool. Get rid of op-if.

274
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And they're like, oh, it's going to break mini script, and it's going to break.

275
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And at first, I actually was a little bit against the idea of removing Op-If until I realized that you literally kind of dug into it.

276
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And I was like, well, you actually don't want to use Miniscript the same way with Taproot because the whole point of leaves is like it's actually better to not have Op-If.

277
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We should have never put Op-If inside of Taproot because if you do it with leaves, it's more private and it's more compact.

278
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it's more efficient and more private

279
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and both from computation storage

280
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and privacy perspective

281
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it is better to not use op-if

282
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and use separate tap leaves

283
00:22:21,371 --> 00:22:24,011
which is the whole design of tap root

284
00:22:24,011 --> 00:22:25,851
I don't even know what the analogy is

285
00:22:25,851 --> 00:22:26,791
but you make a better tool

286
00:22:26,791 --> 00:22:28,991
and then you leave the inefficient mechanism in it

287
00:22:28,991 --> 00:22:30,711
and everybody still just uses the inefficient one

288
00:22:30,711 --> 00:22:32,111
and it's like we'll use the better tool

289
00:22:32,111 --> 00:22:35,011
but still just do all the inefficient stuff

290
00:22:35,011 --> 00:22:36,871
it's like well no you make the better tool

291
00:22:36,871 --> 00:22:38,011
without the inefficient path

292
00:22:38,011 --> 00:22:44,291
and and if it breaks miniscript well that's just because taproot isn't built for miniscript and you

293
00:22:44,291 --> 00:22:50,131
just take out opif and you just say tap leaf you just place that in it um and it's a totally positive

294
00:22:50,131 --> 00:22:54,751
reason doesn't even have to do with spam getting rid of opif is that would actually be a benefit to

295
00:22:54,751 --> 00:23:01,451
taproot i think um yeah it absolutely would but what what it would show though is that no one

296
00:23:01,451 --> 00:23:06,931
actually uses it because like if you yeah if you look at like the correct uses of tap script and

297
00:23:06,931 --> 00:23:10,671
And we shouldn't generalize Taproot because Taproot has things that.

298
00:23:10,891 --> 00:23:10,991
Sorry.

299
00:23:11,311 --> 00:23:11,551
Sorry.

300
00:23:12,031 --> 00:23:12,811
Yeah, TapScript.

301
00:23:13,031 --> 00:23:13,191
Yeah.

302
00:23:13,491 --> 00:23:25,011
I mean, what you can see is that transactions that use TapScript would be like 0.001% of transactions over the past.

303
00:23:25,011 --> 00:23:30,671
Like ever since it was like you'd see that like no one actually wanted Mast at all.

304
00:23:31,331 --> 00:23:33,951
And that was like the whole point of it.

305
00:23:33,951 --> 00:23:40,211
The only reason TapScript is used is for the OpF hack to get the data in there.

306
00:23:40,211 --> 00:23:45,251
I mean, like you said, Taproot was so that you could hide all these branches.

307
00:23:45,931 --> 00:23:52,471
The only reason people use TapScript was to reveal branches, like the exact opposite.

308
00:23:53,191 --> 00:23:57,691
They're like, how can I get this branch be as most revealed as possible?

309
00:23:57,851 --> 00:23:59,351
Oh, I'll use this OpF bug.

310
00:23:59,351 --> 00:24:07,271
because it didn't get used for privacy it got used for the the mechanism for trying to have the

311
00:24:07,271 --> 00:24:14,851
the most exposure of the script data that you possibly could have uh that's oh the irony

312
00:24:14,851 --> 00:24:19,651
that was basically across the board with bit 110 like all this like one of the other things is uh

313
00:24:19,651 --> 00:24:26,311
i think it was like vortex said all the time it's like it breaks l2 and and lightning uh uh symmetry

314
00:24:26,311 --> 00:24:28,671
and so I dug into that too

315
00:24:28,671 --> 00:24:31,591
and that turns out to not be true

316
00:24:31,591 --> 00:24:33,431
the only thing that it even affects

317
00:24:33,431 --> 00:24:35,531
is the very first implementation

318
00:24:35,531 --> 00:24:37,271
of LN symmetry

319
00:24:37,271 --> 00:24:39,711
but since

320
00:24:39,711 --> 00:24:41,591
there were two different mechanisms

321
00:24:41,591 --> 00:24:42,751
that have been implemented

322
00:24:42,751 --> 00:24:45,631
or optimized to improve it

323
00:24:45,631 --> 00:24:47,491
and neither one of them are affected

324
00:24:47,491 --> 00:24:48,471
by what was in BIP-110

325
00:24:48,471 --> 00:24:51,631
so everybody screaming that the sky is falling

326
00:24:51,631 --> 00:24:52,331
over BIP-110

327
00:24:52,331 --> 00:24:55,091
I always thought

328
00:24:55,091 --> 00:24:56,851
I thought the whole time this was politics.

329
00:24:57,391 --> 00:24:58,671
Like this was about power.

330
00:24:59,091 --> 00:25:02,531
And I think most people on the BIP 110 side talk about it in the context of power.

331
00:25:03,151 --> 00:25:08,951
And most people defend or talk against it on the concept of power.

332
00:25:09,191 --> 00:25:17,251
Is that like core is the thoughtful, organized, structured, check your work, independent thing.

333
00:25:17,511 --> 00:25:21,371
And Luke is the defiant fire core path.

334
00:25:21,371 --> 00:25:32,091
And that is what I heard all the time and that it was really about the influence over protocol decisions and which voice was going to be the dominant.

335
00:25:32,091 --> 00:25:40,531
that in my mind, despite the fact that I thought core had less influence than they had had in a

336
00:25:40,531 --> 00:25:47,951
really long time because of this debate, because of the loss of respect when they clearly, and I

337
00:25:47,951 --> 00:25:53,611
still, I can't believe the people who are anti BIP 110, who still just don't even agree with this

338
00:25:53,611 --> 00:26:09,528
or don recognize that this is what happened The absolute dismissal of all the people who run the Bitcoin software and who care about this and put their life savings in it And the basic of shutting down the conversation and pushing something through into the client

339
00:26:09,528 --> 00:26:18,828
as if they're just the ones who decide and nobody else has any part in this. Like the dismissal and

340
00:26:18,828 --> 00:26:32,188
the lack of humility and diplomacy, I guess.

341
00:26:32,328 --> 00:26:34,468
I don't even know what the word is.

342
00:26:34,648 --> 00:26:40,588
The lack of sense in the fact that they were making changes

343
00:26:40,588 --> 00:26:43,348
that would affect everyone because the default

344
00:26:43,348 --> 00:26:46,388
and the standards of the reference client do matter.

345
00:26:46,388 --> 00:26:56,588
and the utter dismissal to a 13-year battle and 13-year debate that we're in charge and we're

346
00:26:56,588 --> 00:27:05,108
just going to do it was pretty gross to me. It was a total utter failure of the process and the

347
00:27:05,108 --> 00:27:11,168
people who, the few people who maintained the GitHub and who had control over shutting down

348
00:27:11,168 --> 00:27:17,248
conversation and pushing and merging things. I think you'd have to be just as blind to say that

349
00:27:17,248 --> 00:27:21,968
that wasn't important or that that wasn't a part of this whole thing and that that wasn't really

350
00:27:21,968 --> 00:27:28,448
what started this being so vicious as saying that BIP110 was supposed to win and it was actually

351
00:27:28,448 --> 00:27:33,728
the majority and it only failed because three mining pools said no. Like I think those are

352
00:27:33,728 --> 00:27:36,648
They're equally delusional to dismiss both of those things.

353
00:27:37,868 --> 00:27:43,928
With that said, what they changed wasn't a consensus rule.

354
00:27:44,668 --> 00:27:49,608
So it made sense that there wasn't much to be done about it because it wasn't actually

355
00:27:49,608 --> 00:27:51,288
a fundamental rule of the network.

356
00:27:51,468 --> 00:27:55,988
It was just a standard in exactly the same way that Knotts could go the opposite direction.

357
00:27:56,788 --> 00:28:01,448
Knotts also changed it in the client and allowed every user to change it.

358
00:28:01,448 --> 00:28:10,988
So it was never going to be something that you could have total consensus on or you had a hard and fast rule on unless you change the consensus rules.

359
00:28:11,388 --> 00:28:22,588
Well, changing the consensus rules is a thousand times harder than changing a policy, which is exactly which both core and knots proves to us throughout all of this stuff.

360
00:28:23,048 --> 00:28:28,668
And the problem, the thing that might be existential is block templates.

361
00:28:28,668 --> 00:28:32,948
and everybody on the BIP-110 side is now saying that,

362
00:28:33,428 --> 00:28:36,088
oh, a few mining pools control everything

363
00:28:36,088 --> 00:28:38,328
and that's the only reason BIP-110 lost.

364
00:28:38,428 --> 00:28:41,628
It's like, well, that's why blockchain plates, you know?

365
00:28:41,628 --> 00:28:45,208
We all agreed and talked about that being the problem,

366
00:28:45,628 --> 00:28:47,968
but I feel like the idea of whether or not

367
00:28:47,968 --> 00:28:49,928
the opportune should be one size or not

368
00:28:49,928 --> 00:28:53,508
and really the control over the direction

369
00:28:53,508 --> 00:28:55,648
of those quote-unquote reference client

370
00:28:55,648 --> 00:29:02,468
ends up being put at the top of the hierarchy over we need to decentralize block templates.

371
00:29:02,468 --> 00:29:08,208
And I always put those in reverse, is that if you decentralize block templates,

372
00:29:08,428 --> 00:29:14,008
you are changing the discussion over who has control and of whether this is actually

373
00:29:14,008 --> 00:29:21,468
decentralized decision making and whether five mining pools can fundamentally enforce or reject

374
00:29:21,468 --> 00:29:29,948
something on the network. But it's sad. Like I don't, I don't, like I said, I never, I was never

375
00:29:29,948 --> 00:29:33,588
super against BIP 110, but I was also never super for it because I just did not think it was the

376
00:29:33,588 --> 00:29:39,808
path to actually solving the problem, which was minor decentralization. And that was the big

377
00:29:39,808 --> 00:29:45,648
problem to me. But I obviously philosophically aligned with a lot of the spam conversation and

378
00:29:45,648 --> 00:29:49,248
still do. I don't, I don't think my opinion on anything has changed. I'm trying to think of

379
00:29:49,248 --> 00:29:53,148
anything that changed because of the failure of BIP-110 to activate.

380
00:29:54,708 --> 00:29:55,388
It would be weird.

381
00:29:55,828 --> 00:30:00,188
I mean, Jason, the author of Datum, still working for Ocean.

382
00:30:00,548 --> 00:30:02,548
Ocean's still in business.

383
00:30:02,908 --> 00:30:09,568
Like, it would be kind of weird if just Luke and Mechanic stepping away from Ocean is what

384
00:30:09,568 --> 00:30:16,648
killed this minor template decentralization thing that you mentioned about what was growing.

385
00:30:16,648 --> 00:30:18,228
Ocean fully, and I hope it does.

386
00:30:18,428 --> 00:30:18,528
Yeah.

387
00:30:18,528 --> 00:30:20,808
I mean, it should still grow, right?

388
00:30:21,008 --> 00:30:21,108
Yeah.

389
00:30:21,608 --> 00:30:21,868
Yeah.

390
00:30:21,948 --> 00:30:31,148
So, I mean, if there was momentum growing there for that kind of block template decentralization, I don't think BIP 110 should have done anything to stop that.

391
00:30:31,368 --> 00:30:47,768
Well, for everybody who goes on the fork, they may very well have been a huge portion of the miners and plebs or whatever that were making block templates and who went to it because they were most concerned about that problem in the context of spam.

392
00:30:47,768 --> 00:30:55,388
And I think it also taints the brand, like the idea of what that pool is for.

393
00:30:56,168 --> 00:31:04,108
I think if you ask most just a random person who's been in all of this debate and you said,

394
00:31:04,108 --> 00:31:07,448
why will you or won't you mine at Ocean?

395
00:31:07,828 --> 00:31:25,824
The question or the answer will be 30 about block templates and minor decentralization and 70 about spam and bit one 10 And I think that should be I wanted that to be the opposite Um and I was always

396
00:31:25,824 --> 00:31:32,684
annoyed by the, the total lack of adoption and caring. And I'm shocked how few people

397
00:31:32,684 --> 00:31:41,084
care about stratum v2 and building block templates uh because it's got to be a pool man

398
00:31:41,084 --> 00:31:46,924
i know it has to be a pool it has to be a pool it has to be a pool um and it has to be a pool

399
00:31:46,924 --> 00:31:52,144
that keeps growing if ocean had gotten to seven percent of the hash power i think it would be a

400
00:31:52,144 --> 00:31:57,484
game changer i think there would be a threshold reached where it was made meaningful difference

401
00:31:57,484 --> 00:32:02,464
to the profitability and the reliability of payouts

402
00:32:02,464 --> 00:32:05,724
and the way Ocean was doing payouts

403
00:32:05,724 --> 00:32:08,804
for where you literally paid for all the luck

404
00:32:08,804 --> 00:32:12,784
and you got all the luck rather than FPPS,

405
00:32:13,844 --> 00:32:15,944
whatever the acronym is,

406
00:32:16,324 --> 00:32:19,384
if it had reached a certain threshold of size,

407
00:32:19,904 --> 00:32:23,344
you could have reached a point where the momentum ran away

408
00:32:23,344 --> 00:32:26,904
and Ocean became one of the dominant pools.

409
00:32:27,484 --> 00:32:40,284
And I think it was always about trying to get one of those pools to become the dominant or trying to force the hand of a dominant pool to implement block templates and getting those miners to care about.

410
00:32:40,284 --> 00:32:43,604
But I think that's the harder route, right?

411
00:32:43,704 --> 00:32:59,124
It's somebody who's already making money and already doing FPPS and trying to split their margin and taking that 10% off the top to get them to change the system for the benefit of Bitcoin when it probably affects their bottom line.

412
00:32:59,444 --> 00:33:00,744
And they're already big.

413
00:33:00,904 --> 00:33:05,844
They already have the probability of the next block that everybody wants to go because they're the big pool.

414
00:33:06,264 --> 00:33:08,164
I think that's an insanely hard battle.

415
00:33:08,164 --> 00:33:29,784
But getting a small one, they can get a few big miners who want to have higher payouts and want to build their own block templates and start pooling the resistance, so to speak, against this centralizing of the mining pools and this dismissal of, well, whatever, everybody can just switch mining pools if something terrible happens.

416
00:33:29,784 --> 00:33:34,584
is like well well how about we just stop the the thing that would cause the terrible thing from

417
00:33:34,584 --> 00:33:41,884
happening like why don't we just it's sure we can call the fire department if the house burns down

418
00:33:41,884 --> 00:33:48,524
but holy shit why would you build something out of like paper soaked in gasoline

419
00:33:48,524 --> 00:33:54,484
stop lighting stop lighting candles underneath the place we chilled with the candles right like

420
00:33:54,484 --> 00:34:03,204
Like, it just, like, you put in a fire alarm, put in a, get a fire extinguisher sitting nearby, like, prevent the need for the fucking fire truck to be there.

421
00:34:04,164 --> 00:34:09,964
And that's what I feel like is happening, is we've dismissed it because we haven't paid any great price for it.

422
00:34:10,084 --> 00:34:14,324
And the people who did care, I feel like, just took a big hit.

423
00:34:14,844 --> 00:34:20,824
And the concern about it as an idea just took a big hit because it got roped into dick butts.

424
00:34:20,824 --> 00:34:25,704
and whatever proposed solution was for that, supposedly.

425
00:34:27,724 --> 00:34:30,344
I'm not sure that I follow that logic completely.

426
00:34:30,644 --> 00:34:38,864
It sounds like what you're saying is the momentum for the datum

427
00:34:38,864 --> 00:34:45,524
and the ocean decentralized block template construction thing was growing.

428
00:34:45,524 --> 00:34:55,644
I think it grew specifically because of the issue the the whole github debacle and the dismissal of

429
00:34:55,644 --> 00:35:03,464
those about the spam issue and yeah and that made it that made people realize I think how important

430
00:35:03,464 --> 00:35:07,984
it was to have a separate client and to be building your own block templates and I think

431
00:35:07,984 --> 00:35:14,804
that was one of those points of like oh here is a point of danger here is a point of contentiousness

432
00:35:14,804 --> 00:35:19,224
where if we have this other thing, this would benefit us.

433
00:35:19,424 --> 00:35:22,444
This would actually help give us voice or influence

434
00:35:22,444 --> 00:35:23,344
in the network itself.

435
00:35:24,844 --> 00:35:26,364
But sorry, sorry, I interrupted.

436
00:35:26,824 --> 00:35:27,284
Keep going.

437
00:35:28,744 --> 00:35:30,424
Well, I was just going to say like,

438
00:35:30,544 --> 00:35:35,864
if that thing was growing, then it should still be growing

439
00:35:35,864 --> 00:35:40,224
is what I'm saying is like, it sounds like you're saying

440
00:35:40,224 --> 00:35:43,784
that the BIP 110 thing ended that.

441
00:35:43,784 --> 00:35:52,364
and it's it's like uh why would that have ended it if there was like there was real momentum there

442
00:35:52,364 --> 00:35:58,084
you know yeah probably it hasn't it hasn't ended anything we we just had a i think it feels like a

443
00:35:58,084 --> 00:36:06,544
setback for sure um and i think it split it certainly split attention away from i think it

444
00:36:06,544 --> 00:36:12,504
Split a lot of the huge part of the community that was talking about that.

445
00:36:12,804 --> 00:36:40,880
And it equated the mining decentralization problem with the proposed a specific soft fork plan to fix the spam problem Or maybe a better way to put it is to fix the the core control of the conversation around the spam problem Uh BIP 110 it roped that into the community Like if there a split

446
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:48,960
off of 4% of the community that really cares about a thing, and then that part of the community also

447
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:52,180
like just gets tied to the idea that BIP 110,

448
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:56,000
a fork that kicks them off the network,

449
00:36:56,180 --> 00:36:59,920
just splits the network entirely

450
00:36:59,920 --> 00:37:01,980
into two different communities,

451
00:37:02,300 --> 00:37:04,540
is part of that solution.

452
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:06,300
It ties those two things together.

453
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:09,200
And in the minds of the other 96%,

454
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:12,360
the mining pool that is doing minor decentralization.

455
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:14,400
I think that's kind of simplifying people, man.

456
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:17,160
I feel like they're kind of painting people as idiots.

457
00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:22,940
how am i how am i painting people to idiots i think because everyone's their own person like

458
00:37:22,940 --> 00:37:28,020
yeah sure everybody's their own person but who doesn't think ocean is about ocean ocean mining

459
00:37:28,020 --> 00:37:33,540
was about bip 110 right now does the majority of people think that or do a majority of people think

460
00:37:33,540 --> 00:37:40,960
that ocean was about mining decentralization or block template decentralization we probably have

461
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:44,360
our own like little, what do you call it?

462
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:48,600
Our own little circles, our own little bubbles here.

463
00:37:48,740 --> 00:37:52,420
But I would think the majority of people thought Ocean was about mining

464
00:37:52,420 --> 00:37:56,680
decentralization. And that BIP-110 was this

465
00:37:56,680 --> 00:38:00,900
two little people and the Ocean company that wanted to do

466
00:38:00,900 --> 00:38:04,380
this BIP-110 thing, but the Ocean company like didn't really agree with them.

467
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:08,980
I would think that'd be the majority view. But we all have our own

468
00:38:08,980 --> 00:38:13,540
circles when it comes to that is what i'm saying everybody everybody has their own bubble but

469
00:38:13,540 --> 00:38:22,560
from from what i saw like mechanic and luke were equivalent to bit 110 and anybody who was

470
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:29,360
following bit 110 were following mechanical like everything gets anthropomorphized and put into a

471
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:36,160
box like like that is that's the nature of the human shortcut of how we label and categorize

472
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:39,780
things. And I think it's just kind of a universal thing, whether we want to say that's human

473
00:38:39,780 --> 00:38:45,020
stupidity. I don't think it is. I think it's a filter problem, right? Is holding nuance about

474
00:38:45,020 --> 00:38:49,380
every single thing and every opinion and every company or person is just insanely difficult.

475
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:54,220
We have, we have dumb bars number to deal with and that, you know, max is at a hundred.

476
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:56,760
A hundred, 150, 200.

477
00:38:57,380 --> 00:39:05,980
Whatever. Whatever. But Ocean was the BIP 110 mining pool and Ocean was Luke and

478
00:39:05,980 --> 00:39:14,320
mechanic i think them stepping down from ocean is actually was the right move or them separating

479
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:22,860
themselves and i i suspect they both did it for the good for the benefit of ocean of ocean um and

480
00:39:22,860 --> 00:39:27,860
so that the mining pool continued to do what it what it was doing that was really really valuable

481
00:39:27,860 --> 00:39:28,920
and really, really good.

482
00:39:29,220 --> 00:39:33,720
Because hands down, objectively looking at the blocks,

483
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:38,260
Ocean is far and away the number one thing

484
00:39:38,260 --> 00:39:43,120
that has ever existed on Bitcoin for the last 15 years

485
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:46,340
for decentralizing the creation of blocks

486
00:39:46,340 --> 00:39:48,520
into the miners as part of that pool.

487
00:39:49,220 --> 00:39:50,760
And it's simply a count.

488
00:39:50,980 --> 00:39:52,860
All you have to do is go look at the addresses

489
00:39:52,860 --> 00:39:55,260
and how the Coinbase are built.

490
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:57,500
And you have proof that that is the case.

491
00:39:57,860 --> 00:40:00,220
And that was the most valuable thing.

492
00:40:00,420 --> 00:40:04,720
This is why I made a video that specifically started with,

493
00:40:04,820 --> 00:40:06,940
I don't care what your opinion about BIP-110 is,

494
00:40:07,100 --> 00:40:09,360
Ocean is the most, Ocean, Datum, and Stratum v2

495
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:12,380
are the three most important projects in Bitcoin right now.

496
00:40:13,380 --> 00:40:18,380
And I do feel like this threw a wrench into the gears

497
00:40:18,380 --> 00:40:21,740
that were making positive gains in that direction,

498
00:40:21,740 --> 00:40:25,240
no matter how small or whether or not it was because of some

499
00:40:25,240 --> 00:40:34,360
secondary argument about spam, whatever it was. Because I certainly, certainly everything that

500
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:39,380
happened around spam and the debate and the whole thing exploded the amount of people who were

501
00:40:39,380 --> 00:40:44,140
running N.A.T.S. and switched to N.A.T.S. In fact, I switched to N.A.T.S. when that happened because I was like, seriously?

502
00:40:44,140 --> 00:40:50,940
like the blindness of the few maintainers

503
00:40:50,940 --> 00:40:55,500
from recognizing how much disrespect they gave

504
00:40:55,500 --> 00:40:57,100
to an enormous amount of the community.

505
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:00,200
And I do totally recognize the difference

506
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:02,880
between everybody who contributes to core

507
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:06,860
and the entire group and what might be a few maintainers

508
00:41:06,860 --> 00:41:10,340
and a small amount that have more control over the GitHub.

509
00:41:10,340 --> 00:41:13,560
And partially, I think the biggest problem here

510
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:15,380
is just GitHub, right?

511
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:17,600
Is GitHub is always necessarily centralized.

512
00:41:18,380 --> 00:41:19,980
And GitHub is not Bitcoin.

513
00:41:20,660 --> 00:41:22,640
And Notts, I think, was proving that.

514
00:41:23,220 --> 00:41:25,480
And Ocean, I was hoping, was proving that.

515
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:27,800
And I think they still are.

516
00:41:28,180 --> 00:41:29,940
I'm not saying it's all done

517
00:41:29,940 --> 00:41:31,760
and we're throwing in the towel or anything.

518
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:35,780
I just was very hopeful about the situation.

519
00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:39,960
And now I'm a little bit murred or...

520
00:41:39,997 --> 00:41:46,977
dampened on the timeline for success there, I think is maybe the way to put it.

521
00:41:47,897 --> 00:41:53,117
I imagine like somebody at ocean. I'm surprised I haven't thought through this before now,

522
00:41:53,117 --> 00:41:59,177
but I guess it's good that I'm doing it now. So ocean, I think wants to continue. I mean, like,

523
00:41:59,177 --> 00:42:03,077
I believe they are.

524
00:42:04,817 --> 00:42:13,837
And I guess someone is going to, someone in Ocean is probably going to have to, I don't

525
00:42:13,837 --> 00:42:13,977
know.

526
00:42:14,057 --> 00:42:19,537
I was just trying to think of like how Datum, can you use Datum on Core right now?

527
00:42:22,397 --> 00:42:23,397
Does anybody know?

528
00:42:25,397 --> 00:42:27,657
No, I don't think so.

529
00:42:29,177 --> 00:42:29,937
Wait.

530
00:42:31,137 --> 00:42:34,937
So like somebody, if not, I don't know.

531
00:42:35,417 --> 00:42:36,477
That's a good question.

532
00:42:38,637 --> 00:42:39,097
Yeah.

533
00:42:39,137 --> 00:42:40,637
How come I've never thought about this before?

534
00:42:44,917 --> 00:42:51,457
But yeah, so like, you know, if there's momentum there, like it, you know, I hope it continues to grow.

535
00:42:51,577 --> 00:42:54,377
I think it will probably continue to grow.

536
00:42:54,377 --> 00:43:00,517
um but you know luke just doesn't want to work be be the guy on that anymore you know i mean i mean

537
00:43:00,517 --> 00:43:05,577
you don't force anybody into anything and yeah exactly i mean the thing i'm saying about like

538
00:43:05,577 --> 00:43:10,397
everyone's their own man is like if there's a dude that's been running a company for a long time

539
00:43:10,397 --> 00:43:16,697
and he all of a sudden thinks what he's doing isn't helping anymore and he wants to like spend

540
00:43:16,697 --> 00:43:21,997
more time with his family or start another company yeah like sure you can you can you can be butthurt

541
00:43:21,997 --> 00:43:27,717
all you want about how you thought him staying would be better for the company, but he's his

542
00:43:27,717 --> 00:43:32,197
own man and he didn't think he was making the company better and he wants to make another

543
00:43:32,197 --> 00:43:32,677
company.

544
00:43:33,377 --> 00:43:37,857
And so like, what's, what good is it just sitting there crying about how you wish he'd

545
00:43:37,857 --> 00:43:38,157
stay?

546
00:43:38,237 --> 00:43:44,017
I mean, like, are you really doing any great service to the world by like, like getting

547
00:43:44,017 --> 00:43:49,077
him to come back and stay when that's just what you want and you might not even be right.

548
00:43:49,077 --> 00:44:15,397
I mean, if a lot of these people left the ocean community and are not building towards that datum decentralized template future anymore, if like half of those people forked off, half of those people forked off is because they thought that was so important that they just couldn't resist the idea of starting a new fork with that as the primary centerpiece.

549
00:44:15,397 --> 00:44:22,697
because they didn't know if, okay, maybe, I mean, your view is that like maybe over some 10-year

550
00:44:22,697 --> 00:44:27,577
period, this would have slowly gotten better. Either they didn't want to wait that 10 years,

551
00:44:27,577 --> 00:44:32,237
or they weren't even sure that you were right, that it was on a path like that.

552
00:44:32,937 --> 00:44:37,797
And it was so important to them that they wanted to see this beautiful experiment start over.

553
00:44:38,757 --> 00:44:44,437
You know, so it's like, I just, I don't see, think you can blame a movement like that for

554
00:44:44,437 --> 00:44:48,777
doing that because everyone's making their own individual actions here and like that's the beauty

555
00:44:48,777 --> 00:44:57,557
of it right i mean so real quick ai says yes a datum datum gateway can use bitcoin core instead

556
00:44:57,557 --> 00:45:02,757
of knots because it gets blocked templates from the node through bitcoin's get plot get block

557
00:45:02,757 --> 00:45:09,217
template rp interface okay it says it just says that the important distinction is template control

558
00:45:09,217 --> 00:45:12,237
Bitcoin core has less controls than not.

559
00:45:12,237 --> 00:45:16,657
My point is that I simply think it was the wrong strategy.

560
00:45:18,097 --> 00:45:24,257
And I'm not trying to, for a better blockchain plate, for decentralization of Bitcoin mining,

561
00:45:24,577 --> 00:45:34,257
and for the goal that I think I share with a lot of Bit110 people of making Bitcoin better

562
00:45:34,257 --> 00:45:40,637
and more decentralized and more resilient against potentially centralized actors,

563
00:45:40,757 --> 00:45:43,057
whether they be miners or developers or whatnot.

564
00:45:44,917 --> 00:45:48,577
But, you know, Luke can do whatever he wants, all of them.

565
00:45:48,777 --> 00:45:49,737
Well, they have that same goal.

566
00:45:49,817 --> 00:45:52,057
They have a difference of opinion of what Bitcoin is.

567
00:45:52,277 --> 00:45:52,697
Of course.

568
00:45:52,857 --> 00:45:53,857
I mean, they have the same goal.

569
00:45:54,057 --> 00:45:58,417
It's just that they don't agree that your definition of Bitcoin is that chain.

570
00:45:58,857 --> 00:46:00,477
In that same way, though, I don't agree with them.

571
00:46:00,477 --> 00:46:05,277
And I'm simply sharing what I thought was the better course of action.

572
00:46:06,617 --> 00:46:08,537
And obviously they can do.

573
00:46:08,637 --> 00:46:13,977
I'm not saying anybody has to like, oh, God, stop your BIP 110 thing.

574
00:46:14,037 --> 00:46:14,557
It's like, sure.

575
00:46:14,617 --> 00:46:16,957
At the end of the day, everybody's going to do what they're going to do.

576
00:46:18,117 --> 00:46:22,617
And all I can do is share my opinion or my thoughts about it.

577
00:46:22,617 --> 00:46:24,357
For what they think is the goal, yeah.

578
00:46:24,457 --> 00:46:25,537
Sure, sure.

579
00:46:25,537 --> 00:46:28,237
But I think the analogy of the guy leaving the company is good.

580
00:46:28,237 --> 00:46:34,397
I mean, like you're saying, I wish the guy would have stayed with the company because it would have been better for the company.

581
00:46:34,637 --> 00:46:41,197
But the guy thinks him being there wasn't going to be good for the company, and he wanted to start a new company.

582
00:46:41,677 --> 00:46:43,897
So it's just kind of crying, right?

583
00:46:44,557 --> 00:46:58,1000
I mean are you really the one to say that your position is correct And the guy who ran the company and decided to leave his position was incorrect No it just my position for the decentralization of Bitcoin

584
00:46:59,320 --> 00:46:59,500
No,

585
00:46:59,520 --> 00:46:59,940
it's just my,

586
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:00,980
it's just my position.

587
00:47:02,620 --> 00:47:03,140
Yeah.

588
00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:04,400
So,

589
00:47:04,460 --> 00:47:04,640
I mean,

590
00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:05,380
I think there's a,

591
00:47:05,500 --> 00:47:08,520
there's a reasonable chance that like,

592
00:47:08,580 --> 00:47:08,660
I mean,

593
00:47:08,660 --> 00:47:10,440
all this is about disagreement plays out.

594
00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:11,980
Like I'm just,

595
00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:12,360
I mean,

596
00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:13,240
I'm just saying that I,

597
00:47:13,260 --> 00:47:14,020
I disagree.

598
00:47:14,140 --> 00:47:15,180
And I,

599
00:47:15,240 --> 00:47:15,860
I think,

600
00:47:15,860 --> 00:47:21,780
I think it would have been better had they taken a different course of action

601
00:47:21,780 --> 00:47:29,100
or held that hand or folded for three turns until they had a full house.

602
00:47:30,580 --> 00:47:35,720
I'm just saying that I think the strategy could have been better.

603
00:47:36,820 --> 00:47:39,120
For instance, I think you could have...

604
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:43,100
One of the things that, just going back as a historical example,

605
00:47:43,100 --> 00:47:49,940
as big blockers for the user-activated soft fork is people talk about all the time how,

606
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:53,840
oh, or big blockers talk about all the time.

607
00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:57,120
I was like, oh, they controlled it and core controls it, whatever.

608
00:47:57,200 --> 00:47:59,940
And they tried to talk about how it was block stream conspiracy and all this stuff.

609
00:47:59,960 --> 00:48:01,860
It's like, well, you guys could have prevented SegWit

610
00:48:01,860 --> 00:48:03,660
if you'd understood the dynamic of all of this stuff.

611
00:48:03,900 --> 00:48:05,300
Because SegWit was a soft fork.

612
00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:11,340
The reason the user-activated soft fork won was because we had two main paths.

613
00:48:11,340 --> 00:48:13,840
is a SegWit soft fork, which was a minor change.

614
00:48:14,460 --> 00:48:17,840
And basically the overwhelming majority

615
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:19,060
of everything that was going on

616
00:48:19,060 --> 00:48:21,760
was finally coalescing around the idea

617
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:23,160
that SegWit was going to happen.

618
00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:25,520
Proof was that the hard fork

619
00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:28,860
that then got implemented or enforced

620
00:48:28,860 --> 00:48:31,560
was SegWit plus the hard fork.

621
00:48:31,860 --> 00:48:34,500
They said, okay, fine, we'll give you SegWit,

622
00:48:34,580 --> 00:48:35,980
but you're going to get it with a hard fork.

623
00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:37,940
So the user activated soft fork,

624
00:48:38,100 --> 00:48:39,260
put up a defense and said,

625
00:48:39,380 --> 00:48:41,080
no, we're not going to take your hard fork.

626
00:48:41,340 --> 00:48:43,500
We're going to go with the less contentious route.

627
00:48:43,500 --> 00:48:55,520
We're going to go with the less destruction or mess, disruption to the consensus of the chain, the backwards compatible version.

628
00:48:56,100 --> 00:49:09,1000
And you can either join us or not, which means that I genuinely think the big blockers were absolutely large enough as a community and as a market power that they could have said, well, we're going to user activated, user rejected soft fork your SegWit.

629
00:49:09,1000 --> 00:49:15,100
and nobody's going to get shit. And if they had understood how nodes worked and how the market

630
00:49:15,100 --> 00:49:18,1000
worked, they could have prevented Segwit from ever getting implemented. And we would have all

631
00:49:18,1000 --> 00:49:25,160
had to fall back to nothing happens at all, despite years and years of fight. But they didn't get it.

632
00:49:25,580 --> 00:49:30,540
They were saying nodes don't matter. And all of this doesn't matter. And all is all we have to

633
00:49:30,540 --> 00:49:33,960
have is 80% of the mining power. And we can force anything on the network. And we're going to get

634
00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:41,220
our hard fork and you can suck it. And so they overplayed their hand and the quiet defensive or

635
00:49:41,220 --> 00:49:51,100
the less attacking, the defensive rather than the offensive strategy was the one that ended up being

636
00:49:51,100 --> 00:49:55,740
the dominant. And I think kind of the same perspective happened here is the non-change

637
00:49:55,740 --> 00:50:01,160
had simply more momentum, had more inertia than the change.

638
00:50:01,900 --> 00:50:05,700
And there is a path where I think maybe that could have balanced

639
00:50:05,700 --> 00:50:11,380
in the opposite direction, but I think it's on a later hand in the poker game.

640
00:50:12,720 --> 00:50:15,840
But again, that's just my, I'm not going to tell Luke what to do.

641
00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:16,940
I'm not going to tell Mechanic what to do.

642
00:50:17,040 --> 00:50:22,400
I messaged him a couple of times and went back and forth on Twitter,

643
00:50:22,580 --> 00:50:23,080
just in general.

644
00:50:23,100 --> 00:50:23,800
It's not just your opinion.

645
00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:27,040
is that you might not be right about what's best for block template.

646
00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:27,680
Of course.

647
00:50:28,060 --> 00:50:28,500
Decentralization.

648
00:50:28,660 --> 00:50:29,080
Of course.

649
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:29,980
Of course.

650
00:50:30,720 --> 00:50:33,360
From my perspective, it looks like I was right.

651
00:50:33,620 --> 00:50:37,780
But I, but like I said, it's all confirmation bias, right?

652
00:50:38,140 --> 00:50:43,680
Is I'm, I'm equating it to BIP 110 because BIP 110 didn't get activated.

653
00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:46,660
I'm saying, oh, well, maybe my perspective was right about it,

654
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:47,600
but that doesn't mean anything.

655
00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:50,400
Just like BIP 110 not activating doesn't mean Bitcoin centralized.

656
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:55,260
it also doesn't mean that i'm right about my reason for thinking bit could have been totally

657
00:50:55,260 --> 00:50:58,760
different reason for bit.10 failing than the one that i think there's probably a million other

658
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:04,720
reasons why it could have been that you know the dominant reason uh i'm just saying that's what i

659
00:51:04,720 --> 00:51:11,920
think and you know take that as you will you know i've been wrong god knows how many times in bitcoin

660
00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:16,920
who's like what the hell does any of us know really i've been wrong so many times dude seriously

661
00:51:16,920 --> 00:51:21,400
Do either of you know if blocks are still coming in on the BIP-110 fork?

662
00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:24,860
Like, is there still a legitimate fork?

663
00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:27,420
Is it like six or seven hours?

664
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:28,360
Like, what's the?

665
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:29,540
I think it's one a day.

666
00:51:31,060 --> 00:51:31,960
One a day?

667
00:51:32,140 --> 00:51:33,440
I don't understand that.

668
00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:34,920
Am I wrong about that?

669
00:51:35,020 --> 00:51:37,700
I'm sorry for, like, what's that?

670
00:51:38,300 --> 00:51:42,780
I'm sorry for the BIP-110 supporters that might not want to hear me say this,

671
00:51:42,780 --> 00:51:48,600
but like I don't understand why people are still mining on the BIP 110 fork chain.

672
00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:50,740
Especially when the algorithm is going to change.

673
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:51,820
Yeah.

674
00:51:51,820 --> 00:52:11,042
I just don understand what the motivation is because like if you really want this BIP 110 new coin you know new fork coin or whatever And let just say there two ways that it can happen

675
00:52:11,942 --> 00:52:18,902
One way is, you know, the Luke Blake fork that's going to happen in like early September.

676
00:52:18,902 --> 00:52:21,182
That's not SHA-256.

677
00:52:21,502 --> 00:52:28,942
The other kind of small thing that keeps popping up is like somebody is like, oh, I'm going to write the client that keeps it SHA-256.

678
00:52:28,942 --> 00:52:31,202
it just does an emergency difficulty adjustment.

679
00:52:32,122 --> 00:52:35,502
I guess that's still a possibility that that might happen.

680
00:52:36,642 --> 00:52:41,242
But either way, both of those are hard forks.

681
00:52:41,762 --> 00:52:49,402
If any of those are successful, eventually they'll be listed on an exchange,

682
00:52:49,402 --> 00:52:57,062
which will immediately get nuked to zero from trading, in my opinion.

683
00:52:57,062 --> 00:53:12,942
So right now you are spending in electricity terms, $79, $80,000 for every Bitcoin you mine there.

684
00:53:13,322 --> 00:53:26,882
Like this is the most expensive way to produce more of a coin that pretty much has no option, but getting nuked to zero if it is ever successful.

685
00:53:27,062 --> 00:53:33,382
on the exchange well but if you don't mine it then there's no chain so there is no split there

686
00:53:33,382 --> 00:53:40,342
are no coins so no it no no no it the splits happening whether you keep mining it or not

687
00:53:40,342 --> 00:53:47,002
yeah i know but doesn't the mining adjustment but the adjustment doesn't happen until a number

688
00:53:47,002 --> 00:53:53,142
of blocks right like doesn't is it time or is it block no one's gonna wait so so the the time it's

689
00:53:53,142 --> 00:53:54,582
going to take to get to the

690
00:53:54,582 --> 00:53:57,102
difficulty adjustment if you don't do anything

691
00:53:57,102 --> 00:53:58,122
is like two years.

692
00:53:59,562 --> 00:53:59,722
Yeah.

693
00:54:00,722 --> 00:54:03,442
So you just have to hard fork with a new

694
00:54:03,442 --> 00:54:05,002
set or

695
00:54:05,002 --> 00:54:07,322
difficulty. You have to hard fork emergency

696
00:54:07,322 --> 00:54:09,262
difficulty adjustment or

697
00:54:09,262 --> 00:54:10,962
hard fork which the

698
00:54:10,962 --> 00:54:12,562
Blake 2B

699
00:54:12,562 --> 00:54:15,082
the major one that Luke

700
00:54:15,082 --> 00:54:16,122
and Mechanic are behind.

701
00:54:17,362 --> 00:54:19,163
That's going to be an emergency

702
00:54:19,163 --> 00:54:20,942
difficulty adjustment plus

703
00:54:20,942 --> 00:54:22,302
a proof of fork change.

704
00:54:23,142 --> 00:54:28,902
to a new algorithm but but you don't have to have it like it activates on a block height like you can

705
00:54:28,902 --> 00:54:37,502
just say that the next block comes in allows this right exactly i mean like um and i don't even know

706
00:54:37,502 --> 00:54:42,862
if you need to wait till the next block comes in like if it blocks like completely stop i'm just

707
00:54:42,862 --> 00:54:47,642
meaning that the next one that comes in could be the new rules like which means you could just start

708
00:54:47,642 --> 00:54:48,342
Right, exactly.

709
00:54:49,002 --> 00:54:49,222
Yeah.

710
00:54:49,442 --> 00:54:51,042
I mean, this is kind of a dumb point.

711
00:54:51,163 --> 00:54:56,283
I just, I'm still searching for a reason out there that people are still mining this chain.

712
00:54:56,382 --> 00:54:57,962
I just, I don't understand.

713
00:54:57,962 --> 00:55:02,802
I don't know whether to feel bad for them because they don't really understand the situation.

714
00:55:03,382 --> 00:55:07,622
Or if there's something I don't understand, a reason to keep mining it.

715
00:55:08,262 --> 00:55:15,202
Man, part of me, that's why I tried not to fight about this a whole lot.

716
00:55:15,542 --> 00:55:17,122
Because there were so many people.

717
00:55:17,642 --> 00:55:22,882
philosophical reasons that I agreed on the conversation about spam in general

718
00:55:22,882 --> 00:55:26,462
but I was totally willing to admit that I didn't understand what the hell was

719
00:55:26,462 --> 00:55:30,702
going on with that and that I wasn't seeing I was just missing a lot of

720
00:55:30,702 --> 00:55:36,942
support because of my social circles or something like that but in in hindsight

721
00:55:36,942 --> 00:55:46,462
there were so many things that the UASF in 2017 had that BIP 110 didn't did not

722
00:55:46,462 --> 00:55:49,342
And yeah, it was totally different.

723
00:55:49,342 --> 00:55:54,742
I think mechanic making that comparison so often was a little bit,

724
00:55:54,742 --> 00:55:58,262
not intentionally misleading, but I mean, like you said, I mean, the,

725
00:55:59,022 --> 00:56:02,702
because of the SegWit thing and pretty much both sides agreed that they wanted

726
00:56:02,702 --> 00:56:04,142
SegWit that,

727
00:56:04,282 --> 00:56:08,942
that totally changed the dynamic from what the situation was with BIP 110.

728
00:56:09,202 --> 00:56:10,662
Like I totally agree with you on that.

729
00:56:11,042 --> 00:56:11,142
Yeah.

730
00:56:11,142 --> 00:56:15,722
and it's also important too

731
00:56:15,722 --> 00:56:17,442
because I see a lot of people

732
00:56:17,442 --> 00:56:19,762
on that side saying that

733
00:56:19,762 --> 00:56:21,902
because the nodes

734
00:56:21,902 --> 00:56:25,402
because the grassroots movement

735
00:56:25,402 --> 00:56:27,043
I mean I 100% believe

736
00:56:27,043 --> 00:56:28,462
Bit.110 was a grassroots movement

737
00:56:28,462 --> 00:56:31,882
that it was a defense

738
00:56:31,882 --> 00:56:36,062
against undesirable direction in Bitcoin

739
00:56:36,062 --> 00:56:37,982
I don't think that necessarily means

740
00:56:37,982 --> 00:56:38,942
it's always going to win

741
00:56:38,942 --> 00:57:03,222
It clearly has to have a certain amount of support for any consensus rules to actually be enforced. You're talking about changing the rules of the entire network. But I think people mistook the simple running of nodes as somehow the commitment or the teeth behind market power.

742
00:57:03,222 --> 00:57:08,322
when the nodes are the way to defend the teeth of market power they aren't the

743
00:57:08,322 --> 00:57:25,825
teeth themselves you know like the node if you running a node as you know like if nunchuck and then nunchuck if you use the wallet without connecting it to your own node that wallet connects to like Nunchuck public node one of their public

744
00:57:25,825 --> 00:57:35,665
nodes. If every of the nine most popular wallets change their node to say, you're going to

745
00:57:35,665 --> 00:57:41,225
see, because of overwhelming support from our users, we're going to show these rules,

746
00:57:41,225 --> 00:57:47,705
this the rules the chain with these rules will be the ones that you see that uh three significant

747
00:57:47,705 --> 00:57:52,425
exchanges not the three biggest exchanges but three very significant exchanges said we have so

748
00:57:52,425 --> 00:57:59,545
much support from the users that we are going to recognize this as the one that is bitcoin if uh

749
00:57:59,545 --> 00:58:06,665
60 of the lightning nodes said our channels will only stay active on this chain like the

750
00:58:06,665 --> 00:58:13,225
infrastructure, the people who are producing used nodes to defend their market position,

751
00:58:13,745 --> 00:58:19,245
that would have been a wildly different story as to what the outcome was. Because the disruption,

752
00:58:19,445 --> 00:58:28,165
the genuine monetary disruption would have been staggering. The monetary disruption of 20% of

753
00:58:28,165 --> 00:58:34,465
knots nodes, even if it was all of them, which it wasn't, but if 20% of the knots nodes fork off

754
00:58:34,465 --> 00:58:41,245
in no particular, I mean, clearly there was no monetary cost. Clearly the miners, if a miner did

755
00:58:41,245 --> 00:58:45,585
not know what was happening, they would never have known what was happening. You know, like they

756
00:58:45,585 --> 00:58:51,265
didn't take a 30% hit to the price of Bitcoin because, because, you know, suddenly their

757
00:58:51,265 --> 00:58:56,785
lightning transaction didn't go through because the wallet they were using isn't on the same chain

758
00:58:56,785 --> 00:59:01,605
that the exchange they were trying to withdraw from is on a different, like there was no economic

759
00:59:01,605 --> 00:59:12,105
consequence of any kind to speak of what happened with BIP 110. And all of the major points of attack

760
00:59:12,105 --> 00:59:18,105
mostly just did nothing. They were just not participatory, which means there simply wasn't

761
00:59:18,105 --> 00:59:24,565
enough force. It was a minority of the defenders and a minority of the offenders, the nodes and

762
00:59:24,565 --> 00:59:33,325
the minors. And I just think that's simply not enough to alter consensus rules. And what I think

763
00:59:33,325 --> 00:59:42,305
we had with Segwit and the 2017 battle was, I think we had an overwhelming majority of the

764
00:59:42,305 --> 00:59:53,265
defenders rejecting the hard fork actively. And the UASF put themselves in alignment with the

765
00:59:53,265 --> 00:59:58,165
majority of the defenders, despite the fact that the majority of the network extenders, the miners,

766
00:59:58,765 --> 01:00:05,845
were attempting to force a change. And it basically said, you're going to rug us of our new blocks.

767
01:00:06,205 --> 01:00:12,685
We're going to rug you of your exchanges, your wallets, your brand, your everything. We're going

768
01:00:12,685 --> 01:00:19,585
to take it back in the opposite direction. But specifically, that was the strongest force. It

769
01:00:19,585 --> 01:00:24,105
wasn't a minority of those people. It was a majority of those people against a majority of

770
01:00:24,105 --> 01:00:29,865
the minors. And that's what I never saw with BIP 110. But I tell you, the conviction was wild.

771
01:00:30,345 --> 01:00:36,885
And I was totally willing to be like, maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. Or I don't

772
01:00:36,885 --> 01:00:43,265
see something because, you know, I also don't believe Twitter is I tried to do a Twitter poll

773
01:00:43,265 --> 01:00:45,685
to just try to get a sense of what everybody thought.

774
01:00:46,465 --> 01:00:53,805
And like after like 30 views or something on the poll,

775
01:00:54,065 --> 01:00:55,625
like in just a matter of minutes,

776
01:00:56,685 --> 01:01:01,065
like 300 fake votes came in for no on Bitcoin.

777
01:01:01,225 --> 01:01:02,325
I was like, well, this was useless.

778
01:01:02,865 --> 01:01:05,685
And like, so it was a perfect microcosm of this whole,

779
01:01:05,845 --> 01:01:08,625
like I cannot possibly just say that

780
01:01:08,625 --> 01:01:10,405
because Bitcoin Twitter looks like this,

781
01:01:10,965 --> 01:01:12,945
that this is the actual makeup of support

782
01:01:12,945 --> 01:01:14,925
or rejection of this thing.

783
01:01:15,985 --> 01:01:19,905
And so my stance was basically that I think

784
01:01:19,905 --> 01:01:21,565
whether or not Bitcoin 10 succeeds or not

785
01:01:21,565 --> 01:01:24,005
is going to be the best possible signal we have

786
01:01:24,005 --> 01:01:25,425
as to what level of support it has.

787
01:01:26,285 --> 01:01:27,365
It's just the fork.

788
01:01:28,245 --> 01:01:30,465
Like I think Bitcoin is a better indicator than Twitter,

789
01:01:30,885 --> 01:01:31,945
than a conference,

790
01:01:32,625 --> 01:01:34,525
than a message board,

791
01:01:34,665 --> 01:01:35,245
than Reddit,

792
01:01:35,665 --> 01:01:38,665
than a mail-in newsletter.

793
01:01:38,865 --> 01:01:40,585
I don't know what the hell.

794
01:01:40,705 --> 01:01:41,665
Anything out there,

795
01:01:41,665 --> 01:01:48,225
I think Bitcoin is a better indicator of the power and market significance of a contentious

796
01:01:48,225 --> 01:01:52,045
diversion in its network than probably anything else we have.

797
01:01:53,445 --> 01:02:02,885
Certainly not political party, you know, like, and so I felt like to me, BIP 110s, the resolution

798
01:02:02,885 --> 01:02:07,845
of BIP 110 or the outcome of the BIP 110 fork was simply the indicator to me of how much

799
01:02:07,845 --> 01:02:15,185
actual support it had and why it is where it is right now.

800
01:02:16,485 --> 01:02:22,025
But so what you're saying, though, is that there is actually going to be for sure a hard fork or two.

801
01:02:22,025 --> 01:02:24,125
Like there are maybe multiple people.

802
01:02:24,325 --> 01:02:25,125
There's for sure going to be one.

803
01:02:25,225 --> 01:02:27,205
Well, I mean, all signs point.

804
01:02:27,405 --> 01:02:27,745
I mean, I.

805
01:02:29,485 --> 01:02:29,965
Act.

806
01:02:30,008 --> 01:02:33,188
I know there's like definitely active work every day.

807
01:02:33,308 --> 01:02:35,608
And I don't know if they've released a date yet.

808
01:02:35,608 --> 01:02:37,268
I think it's going to be early September.

809
01:02:38,148 --> 01:02:40,948
But yes, I would bet a large amount of money there.

810
01:02:41,028 --> 01:02:44,448
There would definitely be one fork, hard fork for sure.

811
01:02:46,388 --> 01:02:50,128
And I don't know about the second one.

812
01:02:50,528 --> 01:02:56,948
Well, I was just going to say the unfortunate thing about that is that this also de-anonymizes a bunch of people's coins again.

813
01:02:57,568 --> 01:02:58,608
Like this is like.

814
01:02:58,608 --> 01:03:00,408
If you do anything with it.

815
01:03:01,568 --> 01:03:02,408
Well, sure.

816
01:03:02,988 --> 01:03:04,408
But I mean like...

817
01:03:04,408 --> 01:03:06,248
Like I'm not going to dump BIP 110 coins.

818
01:03:07,228 --> 01:03:09,048
Well, and maybe I won't either.

819
01:03:09,068 --> 01:03:10,288
For the sake of privacy, really.

820
01:03:11,068 --> 01:03:11,208
Well.

821
01:03:11,688 --> 01:03:12,168
Right.

822
01:03:12,528 --> 01:03:21,388
But the thing is that there's a monetary incentive now to undo any sort of privacy people have gained through.

823
01:03:21,388 --> 01:03:25,548
I mean, maybe you could sell it through, I don't know, RoboSats or something.

824
01:03:25,548 --> 01:03:27,248
I don't know what the thing is now.

825
01:03:27,248 --> 01:03:40,268
But, you know, it's just, it's kind of unfortunate that the very people who would be or who are pro-privacy and everything else are creating an incentive to undo a bunch of things.

826
01:03:40,368 --> 01:03:41,128
You know, I don't know.

827
01:03:42,128 --> 01:03:43,448
Well, you can spend that the other way, too.

828
01:03:43,808 --> 01:03:55,668
So before the fork, like, there was a massive incentive to get your coins off the exchange because you couldn't have split your coins because Coinbase is.

829
01:03:55,668 --> 01:03:56,428
Oh, on the exchange.

830
01:03:56,628 --> 01:03:56,828
Okay.

831
01:03:56,828 --> 01:04:03,228
well that's fair and that didn't work out at all like i was like yeah well that was another reason

832
01:04:03,228 --> 01:04:08,388
i was for the chain split because i was like yo chain split chain split everybody withdraw your

833
01:04:08,388 --> 01:04:14,048
coins from coinbase chain split chain split let's do this pay attention nobody paid any attention

834
01:04:14,048 --> 01:04:26,308
yeah oh shit but um yeah i guess i i i respect a lot of the monetary maximalists

835
01:04:26,308 --> 01:04:30,308
and a lot of people who...

836
01:04:30,308 --> 01:04:32,228
I am a monetary maximalist.

837
01:04:32,348 --> 01:04:35,448
No, I mean, obviously, yes, me too.

838
01:04:36,108 --> 01:04:38,828
But a lot of that community

839
01:04:38,828 --> 01:04:43,448
and even their conviction to go with us all for it,

840
01:04:44,348 --> 01:04:47,788
despite my disagreement over it being the best path.

841
01:04:48,968 --> 01:04:52,108
But I want the monetary maximalist to stay on it.

842
01:04:52,328 --> 01:04:54,148
Out of pure greed and selfishness,

843
01:04:54,148 --> 01:05:01,708
I want the monetary maximalists to stay on Bitcoin proper or the dominant chain, whatever you want to call it.

844
01:05:02,068 --> 01:05:04,548
A bunch of Bitcoin teners are like, you're not on real Bitcoin, so whatever.

845
01:05:05,268 --> 01:05:18,508
I mean, one thing that I think the core side was right about was that even if BIP 110 did succeed, it still would have been a fight to keep spam away.

846
01:05:18,608 --> 01:05:20,928
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Thousand percent.

847
01:05:20,928 --> 01:05:31,708
so yeah so long as the fees are um the way they are and so like even if you were to get your world

848
01:05:31,708 --> 01:05:40,868
of um kind of mining pool decentralization or whatever i still think it would be hard

849
01:05:40,868 --> 01:05:48,708
to be like a monetary maximalist um and have anything be done about it really yeah another

850
01:05:48,708 --> 01:05:53,108
major reason why I didn't think this was existential because I didn't, I genuinely

851
01:05:53,108 --> 01:06:01,808
didn't think it was totally solvable. I thought the conversation and the, the low risk only net

852
01:06:01,808 --> 01:06:07,688
benefit mechanisms for doing something about it all to be a part of the conversation. I thought

853
01:06:07,688 --> 01:06:12,748
it was perfectly sensible to be like, let's get rid of op if. And it doesn't even have anything

854
01:06:12,748 --> 01:06:21,368
to do with spam other than the fact that op-if's only quote-unquote positive use case was spam

855
01:06:21,368 --> 01:06:28,748
and that there were multiple good reasons to remove it that had nothing to do with spam,

856
01:06:29,108 --> 01:06:33,708
which means that the only thing that was being used for, I think anybody could say,

857
01:06:33,788 --> 01:06:40,288
was generally a net negative and that the only things that only positive, the quote-unquote

858
01:06:40,288 --> 01:06:44,628
positive things that it would be used for would also be net negatives. So it's like, why do we

859
01:06:44,628 --> 01:06:49,428
have it? And I think it's perfectly reasonable to have that conversation, whether it's about spam or

860
01:06:49,428 --> 01:06:55,788
not, that would have been a net positive change. But I think most people were so wrapped up into

861
01:06:55,788 --> 01:07:02,648
the context, a different context around that conversation that it was your censoring and

862
01:07:02,648 --> 01:07:06,108
And you don't dump inscriptions or transactions too.

863
01:07:06,448 --> 01:07:11,008
Don't, you know, and it just turned into a mess.

864
01:07:12,008 --> 01:07:16,188
For a while there, I thought Core would take this move.

865
01:07:16,448 --> 01:07:17,568
I don't think they will now.

866
01:07:17,648 --> 01:07:18,668
Maybe there's still a chance.

867
01:07:18,668 --> 01:07:26,808
But I thought after the BIP-110 failure, they would say, okay, we hear you.

868
01:07:27,068 --> 01:07:28,088
You guys want this.

869
01:07:28,088 --> 01:07:35,248
we're going to do the like correction to taproot in the right way not the way that bip 110 did it

870
01:07:35,248 --> 01:07:50,184
and um i thought there was a chance they would do that because like they have to have seen the energy there even though it didn win the soft fork like if you just if you look at something like

871
01:07:50,184 --> 01:07:56,765
it would be a smart way to capitalize on it yeah like natalie brunell's subscriber only comments

872
01:07:56,765 --> 01:08:04,725
in her youtube channel with matt kratter which were just overwhelmingly for doing something

873
01:08:04,725 --> 01:08:06,885
to remove spam.

874
01:08:07,964 --> 01:08:09,765
There's no way those were bots.

875
01:08:09,904 --> 01:08:12,145
And like people that walk into the meetup,

876
01:08:12,445 --> 01:08:14,624
you know, like in person in Raleigh,

877
01:08:14,985 --> 01:08:18,304
95% of them are for, you know,

878
01:08:18,485 --> 01:08:22,165
doing something to at least try to remove spam.

879
01:08:22,165 --> 01:08:25,885
But most of the people either don't run a node

880
01:08:25,885 --> 01:08:30,584
or they're not like technical enough

881
01:08:30,584 --> 01:08:32,005
to update their node.

882
01:08:32,005 --> 01:08:37,744
And like they have so much writing on their node that they just don't really want to mess with it.

883
01:08:37,924 --> 01:08:47,744
And like you said, they just they didn't feel passionate enough or connected enough to actually update node software to actually do this.

884
01:08:48,065 --> 01:08:58,825
And like, you know how you said, like the hard forks in the beginning didn't really matter 2010 and 2013 because there was just such a small community.

885
01:08:58,825 --> 01:09:01,085
Well, that same difference applies now.

886
01:09:01,085 --> 01:09:23,005
I mean, how many nodes were there in 2017? 8,000. I mean, and now there's 100,000 nodes. So you have that same dynamic again, where it's like, for all the reasons you mentioned, I agree with you. Bit110 situation is just like a different animal, and it's not really right to compare it to UASF.

887
01:09:23,005 --> 01:09:28,065
But it's also kind of like comparing Hard Fork today to Hard Fork in 2010.

888
01:09:28,285 --> 01:09:33,725
I mean, it's just like you have 10 times the amount of nodes that would need to update.

889
01:09:33,985 --> 01:09:42,524
And the people that are running those nodes are way less passionate about the project than the people used to be.

890
01:09:42,524 --> 01:09:46,885
There's way more diverse in their opinions, reasons, and setups.

891
01:09:47,105 --> 01:09:47,285
Yeah.

892
01:09:48,244 --> 01:09:51,904
And the momentum is always going to be in the direction of no change.

893
01:09:51,904 --> 01:10:00,705
and when it's this is why it's such a problem that core if you update core you're getting a policy

894
01:10:00,705 --> 01:10:08,505
change and and so now you're forcing people to actually make a change in order to support

895
01:10:08,505 --> 01:10:14,005
something that they want and and so the momentum is going to be in the direction of notice easier

896
01:10:14,005 --> 01:10:19,104
to update than it is i mean i guess you could say they could just not update just stay on a version

897
01:10:19,104 --> 01:10:28,024
of core that's old um but but like then if you have this added concern about the stability of

898
01:10:28,024 --> 01:10:34,184
knots or whatever you might whatever else you might change to like you we need an alternative

899
01:10:34,184 --> 01:10:41,784
implementation that is not sketchy like you can't have it if it if it breaks then then everything

900
01:10:41,784 --> 01:10:48,945
that is that you know like you know the momentum of no change being the you know the thing is lost

901
01:10:48,945 --> 01:10:51,945
because if you have a sketchy competitor,

902
01:10:52,684 --> 01:10:54,124
then everybody's safer.

903
01:10:54,364 --> 01:10:57,945
Their money is the thing that people are most worried about.

904
01:10:58,285 --> 01:11:00,225
You don't want a safe that people can break into.

905
01:11:00,585 --> 01:11:01,545
You don't want to, you know.

906
01:11:03,505 --> 01:11:05,665
I mean, hell, look at this cold card incident.

907
01:11:05,665 --> 01:11:10,864
Only the most survival, those with the most survival

908
01:11:10,864 --> 01:11:13,265
or the highest likelihood of surviving

909
01:11:13,265 --> 01:11:15,565
were the people who bought a Trezor, a Ledger,

910
01:11:15,744 --> 01:11:18,585
and a hardware wallet.

911
01:11:18,585 --> 01:11:23,585
from 2013 and a MK1 and never updated, never did Jack.

912
01:11:23,785 --> 01:11:23,965
Yes.

913
01:11:25,124 --> 01:11:26,205
Steve wins.

914
01:11:27,025 --> 01:11:28,265
Finally, a victory.

915
01:11:28,645 --> 01:11:29,505
Dude, American HODL.

916
01:11:29,505 --> 01:11:29,624
Don't update.

917
01:11:30,364 --> 01:11:37,525
We just did a show with Brandon Quidham, HODL, and Akayson.

918
01:11:38,405 --> 01:11:41,405
It was a really good show, but HODL had a really great analogy

919
01:11:41,405 --> 01:11:45,905
of what it felt like because we were all just kind of down in the dumps

920
01:11:45,905 --> 01:11:51,265
about like everything that just happened with cold card and all this crap and how we went from

921
01:11:51,265 --> 01:11:56,704
basically the mildest bear market to like the worst freaking bear market in bitcoin's history

922
01:11:56,704 --> 01:12:04,825
um and uh he had a great analogy where he's like i feel like because he did he dodged the bullet too

923
01:12:04,825 --> 01:12:12,124
because he had uh multi-sick same reason i did i had cold card in every setup

924
01:12:12,124 --> 01:12:18,104
practically every single setup of any consequence um but they were all multi-sick

925
01:12:18,104 --> 01:12:26,565
and uh uh and he had the same thing and he was like it it feels like you got shot like we got

926
01:12:26,565 --> 01:12:30,804
shot and a whole bunch of bitcoiners got shot and we were all standing in a group

927
01:12:30,804 --> 01:12:37,645
but i had a bulletproof vest on who was the shooter i had the bulletproof vest on and i felt it

928
01:12:37,645 --> 01:12:43,184
but I lived and I watched a whole bunch of people that I care about just get shot and

929
01:12:43,184 --> 01:13:06,121
the bullet go right through a die Like is like we and and we didn tell people enough that they needed a bulletproof vest We just you know said that you in a safe area Don worry about it Or we removed our advice from our website Oh man Yeah If that analysis

930
01:13:06,121 --> 01:13:10,801
is true, who shot the gun, man? That's what I'm interested in. Like, yeah, I feel that pain too.

931
01:13:10,801 --> 01:13:17,061
I feel sad now too. But like, if you just feel sad and you're never interested in who shot the

932
01:13:17,061 --> 01:13:24,721
gun do you actually care i mean like these people trying to say that there's zero chance that cold

933
01:13:24,721 --> 01:13:31,761
card was a state attack it's like you do you know who this wars against it is not zero like

934
01:13:31,761 --> 01:13:39,521
but i feel like you like the the nat natalie brunell like odell crowd is just like you know

935
01:13:39,521 --> 01:13:46,941
the whole austin um nashville like that whole thing is just oh just feel bad oh that what a

936
01:13:46,941 --> 01:13:53,381
terrible thing what what a bad mistake like i never get any sense from that crowd of number one

937
01:13:53,381 --> 01:14:00,681
suspect state attack mvk was involved i never hear that at all from that crowd and that just

938
01:14:00,681 --> 01:14:04,561
bothers me because it's just like you guys know who this war is against right

939
01:14:04,561 --> 01:14:10,361
anyway i won't go i went out that rabbit hole last show i won't do it this show

940
01:14:10,361 --> 01:14:16,501
yeah we we dug into it quite a bit and went back and forth because we did we did the same thing that

941
01:14:16,501 --> 01:14:25,761
we did on the last round table was the is it a state actor i feel how dare nvk well i feel sorry

942
01:14:25,761 --> 01:14:31,061
it's hard to build things it's like we we went back and forth and the whole cto situation and

943
01:14:31,061 --> 01:14:37,541
all this shit you know um hodl had a good point is that he had done explicit dealings with nvk for

944
01:14:37,541 --> 01:14:43,681
a long time and in his personal experience with him he was always he always made decisions on

945
01:14:43,681 --> 01:14:51,861
principle for like the idea of sovereignty, liberty, like open everything and all that

946
01:14:51,861 --> 01:14:57,421
stuff with the exception of open source available and open source, I guess you can say, um,

947
01:14:57,421 --> 01:14:58,301
on cold card.

948
01:14:59,121 --> 01:15:05,261
But, uh, with the whole CTO stuff, I, I wonder, you know, what do you do?

949
01:15:05,321 --> 01:15:10,141
What do you do if, uh, whether or not this is true, I'm still not a hundred percent.

950
01:15:10,201 --> 01:15:11,101
I want to see more.

951
01:15:11,281 --> 01:15:12,121
I want to see more.

952
01:15:12,121 --> 01:15:18,841
I want to see who has the coins and what's, you know, just try to find as many people as we can involved in this.

953
01:15:19,781 --> 01:15:27,981
One of the theories I had on why the CTO would have done what he did with the fake account is a little, makes a little less sense.

954
01:15:29,381 --> 01:15:36,841
But in light of some new evidence related to that.

955
01:15:37,761 --> 01:15:41,461
But regardless, it could have been an error.

956
01:15:41,461 --> 01:15:44,401
It could have just been bloated and convoluted code.

957
01:15:45,921 --> 01:15:50,081
And, you know, it's written in Python and, you know, all this stuff.

958
01:15:50,341 --> 01:15:56,641
And one of the things I thought was that the CTO wasn't actually trying to hide from, like, all this stuff with the Switch account.

959
01:15:57,461 --> 01:16:10,781
From, like, the community and everything at large, he might have been hiding from decisions with NVK and what CoinKite and ColdCard owns versus what was,

960
01:16:10,781 --> 01:16:16,281
oh we pulled it from this other thing and so you know because mbk was very opinionated about

961
01:16:16,281 --> 01:16:22,141
those things and maybe he was just trying to separate that but some of the things make me

962
01:16:22,141 --> 01:16:28,441
think it doesn't line up as well as it's not a good as good an excuse as i thought um but

963
01:16:28,441 --> 01:16:38,281
regardless if you put had somebody infiltrate a company or a team how would you know yeah that's

964
01:16:38,281 --> 01:16:44,881
what i'm saying like have you guys watched that video that i sent you about the the the israeli

965
01:16:44,881 --> 01:16:51,281
pagers the 10-year attack supply chain attack of the pagers i mean did did you read this note in

966
01:16:51,281 --> 01:16:57,781
files like the way that the high levels of government attacks this stuff it's a million

967
01:16:57,781 --> 01:17:04,381
percent possible it's a million times more sophisticated than than we're looking at it

968
01:17:04,381 --> 01:17:07,021
Like, oh, is the name change a big deal?

969
01:17:07,121 --> 01:17:07,641
Like what?

970
01:17:08,301 --> 01:17:09,861
That's not who care.

971
01:17:09,941 --> 01:17:20,861
Like the name change, the anonymity thing, like that's totally irrelevant to the sophistication of what this tap attack would have been if it was from the state, you know?

972
01:17:20,861 --> 01:17:35,001
Well, and the government, the U.S. government has made it explicitly legal to coerce people inside of companies and have those people actually work against their own bosses.

973
01:17:35,401 --> 01:17:41,241
And it's illegal for them to say anything to the company, people inside the company about what they're doing.

974
01:17:41,241 --> 01:18:18,017
And we know for a fact with the Snowden leaks and everything that going on like the WikiLeaks the Vault 7 all these drops anything that we can learn from this if there is one thing it that the CIA not even quietly actively and explicitly puts people in every major and significant company and has agents and rats and infiltrators all over the place who just sit quietly waiting and they have trillions

975
01:18:18,017 --> 01:18:23,737
of dollars in budget that just kind of disappear and we don't know where it goes and who's getting

976
01:18:23,737 --> 01:18:27,517
paid and how many salaries is that?

977
01:18:28,117 --> 01:18:29,117
How many salaries is that?

978
01:18:29,117 --> 01:18:31,717
I bet it's more than one per company that exists.

979
01:18:32,497 --> 01:18:41,777
yeah easily unfortunately for people in the in minority communities let's say there is a high

980
01:18:41,777 --> 01:18:49,957
tendency to use people that are trans or have any sort of weird sexual orientation or otherwise

981
01:18:49,957 --> 01:18:56,237
because they have weird internet histories or secrets or things that they don't want told

982
01:18:56,237 --> 01:19:01,317
and they and they're insecure people generally so they seek those people out to manipulate them

983
01:19:01,317 --> 01:19:14,237
And I mean, you know, in a lot of cases, if you're trans, it's already a signal that you've been highly manipulated by the propaganda campaigns that have been, you know, that have been put out on the Internet anyway.

984
01:19:14,497 --> 01:19:24,477
So, yeah, I think there are already flags about core and other things that there may be compromised people there.

985
01:19:24,477 --> 01:19:32,997
just from a like stand back like big picture idea about insecurity and stuff is the the people who

986
01:19:32,997 --> 01:19:39,857
need constant external validation to who they are what they are like this the whole idea of claiming

987
01:19:39,857 --> 01:19:45,357
you have to use my pronouns and it doesn't even matter who or what you are in that context is that

988
01:19:45,357 --> 01:19:52,857
that somebody else's speaking is what determines whether you like this whole idea they don't even

989
01:19:52,857 --> 01:19:58,977
let us exist is insane because you're saying that all validation of who and what you are is external

990
01:19:58,977 --> 01:20:06,077
that other people control it and people who are deeply insecure need they covet power like nothing

991
01:20:06,077 --> 01:20:13,557
because they feel they have none of it um and so when someone offers them power they they are some

992
01:20:13,557 --> 01:20:20,417
of the most likely to abuse it because they think everyone is abusing power against them because

993
01:20:20,417 --> 01:20:26,437
they constantly hand it over to people. Like all this, like, oh, I'm offended is a perfect

994
01:20:26,437 --> 01:20:30,357
example of it. You know, being offended by the N word just means that somebody else can

995
01:20:30,357 --> 01:20:36,617
send you into a tirade and destroy your mental stability because they use a word. Like that's

996
01:20:36,617 --> 01:20:41,817
not, that's not power that you can be super offended that somebody else used a word that's

997
01:20:41,817 --> 01:20:46,977
weakness. That means that you're allowing, you're projecting a weakness that says someone

998
01:20:46,977 --> 01:20:53,777
else can control my state of mind. The CIA knows this very, very well. They this is like one of

999
01:20:53,777 --> 01:20:58,817
their most important tools is find the insecure, give them a little bit of power and dangle,

1000
01:20:59,617 --> 01:21:07,377
you know, like, take advantage of where they think they are weak and turn into an apparent strength,

1001
01:21:07,377 --> 01:21:12,177
turn into what they think it is strength. So they are they remain weak, and they can be controlled

1002
01:21:12,177 --> 01:21:16,337
very clearly and with obvious strings.

1003
01:21:17,857 --> 01:21:19,857
Doug Stanhope has that great bit.

1004
01:21:19,957 --> 01:21:22,517
He's like, when you come out of that pink, ugly hole,

1005
01:21:22,597 --> 01:21:24,377
you're just this little ball of weakness.

1006
01:21:24,677 --> 01:21:28,837
And some of your parents are just like, you're not weak enough.

1007
01:21:29,397 --> 01:21:34,237
Whenever someone, whenever someone says this particular word,

1008
01:21:34,317 --> 01:21:36,997
you should just recoil and be hurt and be a bit like,

1009
01:21:37,037 --> 01:21:38,197
we need to make you weaker.

1010
01:21:38,857 --> 01:21:41,737
And otherwise, when someone called you a cunt,

1011
01:21:41,737 --> 01:21:43,897
You'd just be like, oh, no, my name's Jessica.

1012
01:21:44,157 --> 01:21:44,657
I'm sorry.

1013
01:21:44,857 --> 01:21:47,657
I almost have a face that looks like other people.

1014
01:21:48,677 --> 01:21:51,117
Yeah, like the perfect example is that like,

1015
01:21:51,417 --> 01:21:53,037
I welcome anybody who's listening to this,

1016
01:21:53,117 --> 01:21:54,177
call me a woman.

1017
01:21:55,117 --> 01:21:56,537
I will not lose a wink of sleep.

1018
01:21:57,297 --> 01:22:01,797
Like I will not mispronoun, misgender me.

1019
01:22:02,737 --> 01:22:05,497
So the problem is there is a line,

1020
01:22:05,537 --> 01:22:10,197
there is a line between harassment and...

1021
01:22:10,197 --> 01:22:10,717
Sure.

1022
01:22:10,717 --> 01:22:17,017
harassment is a different thing than simply but listen i've had conversations it's a blurry line

1023
01:22:17,017 --> 01:22:21,677
because i've had conversations with people that will say oh you don't care if i call you a pedophile

1024
01:22:21,677 --> 01:22:28,237
and it's like okay this is very different it's a very different thing but they equate not being

1025
01:22:28,237 --> 01:22:33,357
called what are what they want to be called with calling you a pedophile like it's like

1026
01:22:33,357 --> 01:22:39,337
yeah it's a modern daily that's a modern daily if you ever heard it like no what's that that's

1027
01:22:39,337 --> 01:22:47,257
the argumentation thing where you you loudly proclaim a absurd insane argument over and over

1028
01:22:47,257 --> 01:22:50,037
and over again and then when you get challenged on it because you can't actually defend it

1029
01:22:50,037 --> 01:22:57,077
you fall back to a very sensible claim um like uh in uh abortion or whatever it's that you know

1030
01:22:57,077 --> 01:23:03,297
there should never like my body my choice babies aren't a thing um you know it's just a clump of

1031
01:23:03,297 --> 01:23:07,637
cells what if somebody doesn't matter yeah yeah and then and then when you say it's like so you're

1032
01:23:07,637 --> 01:23:13,017
saying that like at 28 weeks when there's a full grown baby, like you can just

1033
01:23:13,017 --> 01:23:13,737
destroy it or whatever.

1034
01:23:13,737 --> 01:23:14,877
It's like, well, what if somebody gets raped?

1035
01:23:15,157 --> 01:23:16,397
Well, what if the mother's going to die?

1036
01:23:16,397 --> 01:23:19,957
It's like, well, yeah, but that's like 0.1% of 0.1%.

1037
01:23:19,993 --> 01:23:24,573
You're talking about, you're saying we're going to change this crazy, insane thing.

1038
01:23:25,113 --> 01:23:37,013
And then you're falling back to the 0.1% of gray area that is actually a defensible thing to talk about or hard to determine one way or the other what the right path is.

1039
01:23:37,413 --> 01:23:47,833
Being called a pedophile and publicly stating somebody is a pedophile is a perfect example than saying that you have a dick and balls because you have a dick and balls.

1040
01:23:47,833 --> 01:23:49,673
so like

1041
01:23:49,673 --> 01:23:52,373
you're just claiming it's harassment

1042
01:23:52,373 --> 01:23:54,253
because you don't like it but it's not

1043
01:23:54,253 --> 01:23:56,373
it's factually accurate

1044
01:23:56,373 --> 01:23:58,453
you're just saying that you don't

1045
01:23:58,453 --> 01:24:00,453
want it to be factually accurate because

1046
01:24:00,453 --> 01:24:02,433
you're not okay with what the universe gave you

1047
01:24:02,433 --> 01:24:04,733
and you want something else to be true

1048
01:24:04,733 --> 01:24:06,613
but you know I'm not a cat

1049
01:24:06,613 --> 01:24:08,513
because I want to be one

1050
01:24:08,513 --> 01:24:10,573
and it doesn't make me

1051
01:24:10,573 --> 01:24:12,733
powerful to be like I'm a cat

1052
01:24:12,733 --> 01:24:14,673
and there's nothing you can say about it and if you call me

1053
01:24:14,673 --> 01:24:16,213
a dog I'm going to punch you in the face

1054
01:24:16,213 --> 01:24:24,213
it's like who actually like how few people actually would care um but like you tell me

1055
01:24:24,213 --> 01:24:29,533
i have to say something a certain way or i have to refer to you a certain way and that i'm evil

1056
01:24:29,533 --> 01:24:38,013
if i don't man you just make me you just make me want to do you just make me want to piss you off

1057
01:24:38,013 --> 01:24:43,193
you know like you're telling me what you're telling people is hey i have this button i have

1058
01:24:43,193 --> 01:24:48,713
a button if you want to push it it's gonna make me really angry yeah like you have a red button

1059
01:24:48,713 --> 01:24:53,353
everybody yeah i don't i won't touch the red button don't press the red button like this

1060
01:24:53,353 --> 01:24:59,853
no one of my favorite stories i won't press the red card i don't even remember where it

1061
01:24:59,853 --> 01:25:06,613
where who said it um but they were talking about why gringos why the people the expats that have

1062
01:25:06,613 --> 01:25:15,293
come to Mexico and Central and South America are so generally, like, there are places where,

1063
01:25:15,473 --> 01:25:23,293
you know, people are still not accepted. But generally, it has become weirdly a term of

1064
01:25:23,293 --> 01:25:28,713
endearment because it was an insult and white people couldn't just be bothered, just couldn't

1065
01:25:28,713 --> 01:25:33,173
be bothered to be insulted. They were just like, yeah, yeah, gringo. Gringo is a cool word.

1066
01:25:33,173 --> 01:25:39,033
if somebody's calling you a fuck face and you're like yeah yeah fuck face and and you have to

1067
01:25:39,033 --> 01:25:45,413
explain to them no no no you're supposed to be insulted and like it already failed i all the

1068
01:25:45,413 --> 01:25:51,033
power's gone and and then it becomes funny right because you realize that you and all your friends

1069
01:25:51,033 --> 01:25:56,473
hey i can call this guy a green card he's totally fine with it and then it just becomes everybody

1070
01:25:56,473 --> 01:25:58,433
has nothing but positive associations

1071
01:25:58,433 --> 01:26:00,913
with it. So it literally becomes

1072
01:26:00,913 --> 01:26:02,493
you take

1073
01:26:02,493 --> 01:26:04,513
all of the power out of the insult

1074
01:26:04,513 --> 01:26:06,493
by just being like, yeah,

1075
01:26:06,493 --> 01:26:08,533
sure, whatever. Yeah, I mean, that's been

1076
01:26:08,533 --> 01:26:10,533
my only strategy for most of my

1077
01:26:10,533 --> 01:26:11,933
life, and I learned that in middle school.

1078
01:26:12,773 --> 01:26:14,293
I remember Skyler,

1079
01:26:14,753 --> 01:26:16,233
our good friend Skyler,

1080
01:26:16,693 --> 01:26:18,033
used to

1081
01:26:18,033 --> 01:26:20,633
give me mad hell about having

1082
01:26:20,633 --> 01:26:22,513
big ears, which looked

1083
01:26:22,513 --> 01:26:24,673
way more extreme when I was

1084
01:26:24,673 --> 01:26:28,993
little like in middle school oh my people picked on me so bad about it um they were pretty big when

1085
01:26:28,993 --> 01:26:35,793
i was little because my head was much smaller um and they were the same size and uh uh and he used

1086
01:26:35,793 --> 01:26:40,353
to give me shit about it real bad and i remember like i have like broke down crying like multiple

1087
01:26:40,353 --> 01:26:47,953
times about like how much people would pick on me about it and um i uh and at some point i just kind

1088
01:26:47,953 --> 01:26:52,113
of realized i think it was because jeff was my older brother and he was a total asshat most of

1089
01:26:52,113 --> 01:26:58,913
the time and so i had to learn how to you know put up my defenses um and one thing jeff that you would

1090
01:26:58,913 --> 01:27:04,693
do when we were little that drove me mad like absolute mad as hell is that you would just kind

1091
01:27:04,693 --> 01:27:09,293
of have like this comp especially when we were like playing and we were playing in like this

1092
01:27:09,293 --> 01:27:17,753
fake when you were pretending and you would just be like no this is no it's not i i won i shot you

1093
01:27:17,753 --> 01:27:23,313
or whatever. And I'd be like, no, you didn't. I clearly came out and I shot you and you would

1094
01:27:23,313 --> 01:27:29,893
just gaslight me to be like, no, no, you didn't. You totally lost. You totally lost. I killed you

1095
01:27:29,893 --> 01:27:37,553
three times before you even hopped out behind your thing. And it infuriated me beyond belief.

1096
01:27:37,553 --> 01:27:44,893
But like some part of my subconscious, which I later put into logic and made sense of,

1097
01:27:44,893 --> 01:27:53,813
was just that the confidence of definition uh when we talk about like defining or accepting

1098
01:27:53,813 --> 01:27:59,093
something confidence is the whole game right stronger frame wins the stronger frame wins

1099
01:27:59,093 --> 01:28:06,593
that's a great way of putting it and i started when skylar would come up and be like um uh it'd

1100
01:28:06,593 --> 01:28:13,433
be like how many how many channels you get on those dishes and i i would be like bitch i get

1101
01:28:13,433 --> 01:28:20,073
porn. Like I get free porn. Like, you know, like I would, I would basically just push it harder. I

1102
01:28:20,073 --> 01:28:37,550
would I started to come up with my own insults and I just kind of like owned it that like I was the coolest person with big ears And ever since then I slowly started taking that as my strategy And it was funny like like when you think about like the

1103
01:28:37,550 --> 01:28:41,670
the black community and the N word is that they started to do that.

1104
01:28:41,890 --> 01:28:44,270
Like that was like a thing and like they owned it.

1105
01:28:44,590 --> 01:28:45,810
That's a really cool,

1106
01:28:45,810 --> 01:28:48,010
like self empowering thing.

1107
01:28:48,010 --> 01:28:48,630
Is it like,

1108
01:28:48,910 --> 01:28:50,090
this is our word now,

1109
01:28:50,090 --> 01:28:50,550
like,

1110
01:28:50,630 --> 01:28:50,950
you know,

1111
01:28:50,950 --> 01:28:51,310
like,

1112
01:28:51,830 --> 01:28:51,970
uh,

1113
01:28:51,970 --> 01:28:52,230
inward,

1114
01:28:52,390 --> 01:28:52,710
please,

1115
01:28:52,830 --> 01:28:53,050
you know,

1116
01:28:53,070 --> 01:28:53,210
like,

1117
01:28:53,210 --> 01:28:53,790
like they just,

1118
01:28:53,890 --> 01:28:54,330
and you just,

1119
01:28:54,450 --> 01:28:56,370
and rap songs and all this stuff.

1120
01:28:56,870 --> 01:28:57,110
Uh,

1121
01:28:57,110 --> 01:28:57,390
but,

1122
01:28:57,490 --> 01:29:05,270
then something about, and I, I don't, uh, withhold MK ultra and all this stuff. I can't help but

1123
01:29:05,270 --> 01:29:11,430
wonder if the, no, you still have to be really, really offended if white people say it, if it

1124
01:29:11,430 --> 01:29:18,290
wasn't important for government to keep that thread alive, you know, to politically manipulate

1125
01:29:18,290 --> 01:29:26,450
people. Um, because if, if it was just owned and nobody cared, I think, I think it would be a

1126
01:29:26,450 --> 01:29:27,990
vastly more

1127
01:29:27,990 --> 01:29:30,030
empowering and

1128
01:29:30,030 --> 01:29:32,510
it would have been the perfect strategy. That's what Yankee was,

1129
01:29:32,670 --> 01:29:32,850
right?

1130
01:29:34,470 --> 01:29:36,170
During the war or whatever,

1131
01:29:36,290 --> 01:29:38,150
they were like, Yankee was an insult.

1132
01:29:38,350 --> 01:29:38,970
And then there's like,

1133
01:29:39,110 --> 01:29:42,010
bitch, I am a Yankee. I'm going to kick your ass.

1134
01:29:42,170 --> 01:29:44,010
They owned it

1135
01:29:44,010 --> 01:29:45,530
and turned it around and

1136
01:29:45,530 --> 01:29:47,850
they got to control what it was.

1137
01:29:48,750 --> 01:29:51,070
that's

1138
01:29:51,070 --> 01:29:52,850
the stronger friend.

1139
01:29:52,850 --> 01:29:53,850
Bitcoin maximalists.

1140
01:29:53,850 --> 01:29:58,230
so many cases of this so many cases you could just go on and on and on we could have a whole

1141
01:29:58,230 --> 01:30:05,230
episode just talking about all the ways in which you turn an insult or a supposed slight into

1142
01:30:05,230 --> 01:30:10,290
something that makes you powerful and that you own uh instead of your uh quote-unquote offender

1143
01:30:10,290 --> 01:30:18,170
um but but you see that canada's at war with the u.s now that that's gonna go well

1144
01:30:18,170 --> 01:30:24,230
seriously like the prime minister of canada said we're at war

1145
01:30:24,230 --> 01:30:32,250
the trump has said that you know he's going to rename it to lake ontario is now lake america

1146
01:30:32,250 --> 01:30:41,770
um because because that makes sense trump is something else they're threatening to like cut

1147
01:30:41,770 --> 01:30:43,970
some sort of, I don't know,

1148
01:30:44,210 --> 01:30:45,010
I don't know if like

1149
01:30:45,010 --> 01:30:47,950
oil sales power, they're cutting

1150
01:30:47,950 --> 01:30:49,850
all sorts of stuff. They're

1151
01:30:49,850 --> 01:30:51,190
recommending, literally the

1152
01:30:51,190 --> 01:30:53,750
leader, governor, whatever of

1153
01:30:53,750 --> 01:30:55,870
British Columbia just told people

1154
01:30:55,870 --> 01:30:57,790
not to buy things from the US

1155
01:30:57,790 --> 01:30:59,670
and not to travel to the US

1156
01:30:59,670 --> 01:31:01,850
if you could avoid it.

1157
01:31:02,770 --> 01:31:03,130
And so

1158
01:31:03,130 --> 01:31:05,270
we're like,

1159
01:31:05,630 --> 01:31:07,890
now the only place that

1160
01:31:07,890 --> 01:31:09,050
my

1161
01:31:09,050 --> 01:31:11,190
wife can, is

1162
01:31:11,190 --> 01:31:15,550
is going to have citizenship outside of Iran may end up being,

1163
01:31:15,550 --> 01:31:19,890
may end up being the war with Iran is over.

1164
01:31:20,530 --> 01:31:21,250
You finally get it.

1165
01:31:21,370 --> 01:31:21,530
It's like,

1166
01:31:21,570 --> 01:31:22,130
ah,

1167
01:31:22,190 --> 01:31:22,870
Canadians.

1168
01:31:24,010 --> 01:31:25,410
Shut up those Canadians.

1169
01:31:26,490 --> 01:31:26,750
I mean,

1170
01:31:26,790 --> 01:31:27,950
the thing is that the,

1171
01:31:27,950 --> 01:31:31,510
the upside is that somebody was pointing out that the prime minister of

1172
01:31:31,510 --> 01:31:37,810
Canada has like 90% of his financial life based in the U S like a bunch of

1173
01:31:37,810 --> 01:31:38,910
his investments and everything.

1174
01:31:38,910 --> 01:31:45,630
so hopefully that means this is not a serious site but i don't know this stuff is probably just

1175
01:31:45,630 --> 01:31:52,150
ridiculous yeah so steve i want to hear about your thing before we were already like way into this um

1176
01:31:52,150 --> 01:31:59,990
coinbase coinbase thing coinbase token oh yeah tell me about this so um yeah i think i might

1177
01:31:59,990 --> 01:32:07,970
have one issue that like most people might unite around um in this kind of like divisionary climate

1178
01:32:07,970 --> 01:32:09,970
so

1179
01:32:09,970 --> 01:32:14,170
this is going to take a little bit of

1180
01:32:14,170 --> 01:32:16,130
just kind of set up because if I

1181
01:32:16,130 --> 01:32:18,170
just say what it is everyone's

1182
01:32:18,170 --> 01:32:19,470
just going to reject it and I

1183
01:32:19,470 --> 01:32:22,150
did bad explaining this once

1184
01:32:22,150 --> 01:32:24,010
so I think

1185
01:32:24,010 --> 01:32:25,790
one of the big elephants in the room

1186
01:32:25,790 --> 01:32:27,610
of the whole Bitcoin

1187
01:32:27,610 --> 01:32:30,170
movement is does

1188
01:32:30,170 --> 01:32:31,790
Coinbase have the coins they have

1189
01:32:31,790 --> 01:32:34,170
would you guys agree

1190
01:32:34,170 --> 01:32:36,110
that's like one of if not

1191
01:32:36,110 --> 01:32:37,310
so serious

1192
01:32:37,310 --> 01:32:42,970
On par with like minor decentralization is like, does Coinbase have the coins?

1193
01:32:43,090 --> 01:32:43,230
Right.

1194
01:32:44,870 --> 01:32:56,530
And we're just kind of like, well, you know, this cold card incident happened and it seems like people are, you know, not self-custodying a lot anymore.

1195
01:32:56,970 --> 01:33:01,830
And are the ETFs really going to challenge the custody?

1196
01:33:02,610 --> 01:33:04,290
Are there going to be bank runs?

1197
01:33:04,290 --> 01:33:10,470
We're just like, how is whether Coinbase has the coins are not ever going to be challenged?

1198
01:33:10,930 --> 01:33:12,330
And I think about this daily.

1199
01:33:13,790 --> 01:33:17,770
And I had a small glimmer of hope, okay?

1200
01:33:18,290 --> 01:33:23,810
So take this in the context of this small glimmer of hope.

1201
01:33:23,890 --> 01:33:26,990
I'm not saying it's a solution, but it might be a path.

1202
01:33:27,830 --> 01:33:33,590
And this involves some shitty things like Ethereum, okay?

1203
01:33:33,590 --> 01:33:37,650
So those are two like hard to swallow pills immediately.

1204
01:33:38,050 --> 01:33:39,850
But here's the idea.

1205
01:33:40,210 --> 01:33:50,386
So Coinbase last year announced a DeFi token called CBBTC Right

1206
01:33:50,526 --> 01:33:52,706
So this is one of those B I know.

1207
01:33:52,806 --> 01:33:53,066
Right.

1208
01:33:53,626 --> 01:33:55,266
That's why I had to preface this.

1209
01:33:55,266 --> 01:33:55,686
Okay.

1210
01:33:56,346 --> 01:33:56,766
Um,

1211
01:33:56,766 --> 01:33:57,686
with the,

1212
01:33:57,686 --> 01:33:57,986
the,

1213
01:33:58,206 --> 01:34:00,766
what it's going towards and like how it might be a solution.

1214
01:34:01,546 --> 01:34:01,966
Um,

1215
01:34:02,346 --> 01:34:08,546
so CBBTC is one of those stupid wrapped Bitcoin things that they transmit on

1216
01:34:08,546 --> 01:34:18,646
Tron and Solana and Ethereum or whatever. Interestingly though, you can run your, from your

1217
01:34:18,646 --> 01:34:30,426
computer and scan those blockchains and you can see how much CB BTC exists on, on that network.

1218
01:34:30,426 --> 01:34:51,386
A every Coinbase customer has the ability to download the app on their phone, the base app, and withdraw their Bitcoin from Coinbase as CBBTC on their phone.

1219
01:34:52,766 --> 01:34:56,286
So you don't have a Bitcoin balance on Coinbase anymore.

1220
01:34:56,526 --> 01:34:58,686
You have CBBTC on your phone.

1221
01:34:58,686 --> 01:35:23,266
Now, here's the key part. Coinbase was pressured last year that they did not actually have that CBBTC was imaginary or whatever. Coinbase's reaction to that was, no, it's not. Here are the Bitcoin addresses for the CBBTC wrapped Bitcoin token.

1222
01:35:23,266 --> 01:35:32,046
So Coinbase, if you hold Bitcoin on Coinbase, it's paper, right?

1223
01:35:32,566 --> 01:35:40,246
They don't even try to publish any addresses saying that here's the collection of addresses that corresponds to our customers' Bitcoin.

1224
01:35:40,246 --> 01:35:43,166
for their CBBTC token

1225
01:35:43,166 --> 01:35:45,246
they have a public

1226
01:35:45,246 --> 01:35:45,906
website

1227
01:35:45,906 --> 01:35:49,126
that lists Bitcoin addresses

1228
01:35:49,126 --> 01:35:51,366
that contain the full

1229
01:35:51,366 --> 01:35:53,366
balance of all their

1230
01:35:53,366 --> 01:35:55,366
CBBTC Bitcoin

1231
01:35:55,366 --> 01:35:56,926
token not

1232
01:35:56,926 --> 01:35:59,046
one for one like you can't say like

1233
01:35:59,046 --> 01:35:59,966
freaking mouthful

1234
01:35:59,966 --> 01:36:03,226
here's my CBBTC

1235
01:36:03,226 --> 01:36:05,166
on my phone where's my address

1236
01:36:05,166 --> 01:36:07,066
you can't say it sound like you're stuttering

1237
01:36:07,066 --> 01:36:09,106
CBBC

1238
01:36:09,106 --> 01:36:17,626
CBBTC. CBBTC. CBBTC. Yeah, we need a better thing for this. Okay, the Coinbase wrapped Bitcoin,

1239
01:36:17,766 --> 01:36:23,666
okay? Coinbase is wrapped Bitcoin. But they publish those addresses. It's on a Coinbase.com

1240
01:36:23,666 --> 01:36:29,566
address. It says proof of reserves. And it's a proof of reserves, not for Coinbase's Bitcoin,

1241
01:36:29,566 --> 01:36:33,006
but for Coinbase's wrapped Bitcoin token.

1242
01:36:34,006 --> 01:36:35,566
And all of their,

1243
01:36:35,946 --> 01:36:44,626
all of these token movements are verifiable on the Ethereum blockchain or

1244
01:36:44,626 --> 01:36:45,906
Ethereum Tron,

1245
01:36:46,326 --> 01:36:46,666
whatever.

1246
01:36:47,806 --> 01:36:51,166
So this glimmer of hope is like,

1247
01:36:51,206 --> 01:36:52,986
if you think of proof of keys,

1248
01:36:54,026 --> 01:36:54,346
right?

1249
01:36:54,546 --> 01:36:56,846
We have this kind of like crazy idea,

1250
01:36:56,846 --> 01:37:03,166
or used to have this crazy idea that like once a year on january 3rd everyone would withdraw their

1251
01:37:03,166 --> 01:37:12,846
um bitcoin to their wallet it would force the coin the exchanges to sort of admit whether they

1252
01:37:12,846 --> 01:37:21,106
have the coins or not right but that's never going to happen because like nobody has uh you know one

1253
01:37:21,106 --> 01:37:28,466
percent of coinbase customers have a wallet to withdraw to right but this is in another mechanism

1254
01:37:28,466 --> 01:37:38,686
that is much easier and much simpler and if like we can have this kind of growing movement of people

1255
01:37:38,686 --> 01:37:44,066
being like i don't expect people with a million dollars on coinbase to withdraw it to their base

1256
01:37:44,066 --> 01:37:53,546
that, but like the plebs with like a thousand, like $10,000 on Coinbase, if they simply withdraw

1257
01:37:53,546 --> 01:38:00,766
that to their, their app on their phone as wrapped Bitcoin, Coinbase is essentially forced

1258
01:38:00,766 --> 01:38:09,466
to show a Bitcoin address to reflect that you have that on your phone. Now it's kind of like a

1259
01:38:09,466 --> 01:38:12,486
a modified like proof of keys kind of thing.

1260
01:38:12,846 --> 01:38:17,166
And I'm only saying this because I know this is a weird,

1261
01:38:17,366 --> 01:38:17,986
sketchy,

1262
01:38:18,026 --> 01:38:19,346
non hopeful plan,

1263
01:38:19,606 --> 01:38:20,266
but it's the,

1264
01:38:20,306 --> 01:38:21,346
it's the only,

1265
01:38:21,506 --> 01:38:24,286
it's the only thing I've thought of that put,

1266
01:38:24,286 --> 01:38:28,786
that gives any direction to the idea of maybe helping,

1267
01:38:29,106 --> 01:38:29,866
you know,

1268
01:38:30,186 --> 01:38:33,266
solve the problem of Coinbase never revealing their coins.

1269
01:38:33,586 --> 01:38:33,746
I mean,

1270
01:38:33,766 --> 01:38:34,786
if everybody did this,

1271
01:38:35,146 --> 01:38:39,126
if everybody with Bitcoin on Coinbase did this,

1272
01:38:39,466 --> 01:38:44,026
simply withdraw to their phone as wrapped bitcoin coinbase would have to reveal the

1273
01:38:44,026 --> 01:38:51,386
addresses for every coins that they have i'm behind this i'm behind this plan 100 i i like

1274
01:38:51,386 --> 01:39:05,242
that not i know that not going to happen but that is the true fact because bitcoin showed up as wrapped Bitcoin on your phone that means that they had to put that transaction on the Ethereum or Tron network as wrapped Bitcoin

1275
01:39:05,802 --> 01:39:13,342
All those transactions can be verified by everyone. So we can see how much Bitcoin they've put. And

1276
01:39:13,342 --> 01:39:19,022
then, so we know how much wrapped Bitcoin they've put out there. And then on their website, they are

1277
01:39:19,022 --> 01:39:20,882
forced to show Bitcoin addresses

1278
01:39:20,882 --> 01:39:22,762
matching how much wrapped

1279
01:39:22,762 --> 01:39:23,922
Bitcoin they've put out there.

1280
01:39:25,102 --> 01:39:26,882
So, does

1281
01:39:26,882 --> 01:39:28,782
that finally all make sense now, Guy? I know

1282
01:39:28,782 --> 01:39:30,162
I explained it terribly before.

1283
01:39:30,822 --> 01:39:32,782
It would provide a capacity to

1284
01:39:32,782 --> 01:39:34,802
an internal bank run. You know, like

1285
01:39:34,802 --> 01:39:36,742
going back to the idea of like

1286
01:39:36,742 --> 01:39:38,262
nodes and

1287
01:39:38,262 --> 01:39:42,242
like withdrawals

1288
01:39:42,242 --> 01:39:44,582
and the power and like what

1289
01:39:44,582 --> 01:39:46,522
the whole idea of Bitcoin

1290
01:39:46,522 --> 01:39:47,062
is.

1291
01:39:47,062 --> 01:39:55,702
is that the whole reason Bitcoin might actually provide some sort of check on this whole thing

1292
01:39:55,702 --> 01:40:00,342
is the exact same way bank runs did.

1293
01:40:01,482 --> 01:40:01,682
All right?

1294
01:40:02,042 --> 01:40:02,142
Yeah.

1295
01:40:02,562 --> 01:40:04,562
We got to have bank runs on Coinbase.

1296
01:40:05,262 --> 01:40:10,882
Bank runs on a bank are exactly what kept banks honest.

1297
01:40:11,502 --> 01:40:12,062
Honest.

1298
01:40:12,062 --> 01:40:20,742
It is what forced them to be responsible and enforced a sense of fraud is not going to survive in this space.

1299
01:40:21,242 --> 01:40:24,642
And so many people will tell me that like no central banking is necessary.

1300
01:40:25,082 --> 01:40:26,562
Look how few bank runs we've had.

1301
01:40:27,122 --> 01:40:27,422
Yeah.

1302
01:40:27,722 --> 01:40:29,942
And look how much fraud we have.

1303
01:40:30,442 --> 01:40:33,002
Like bank runs are not the thing to solve.

1304
01:40:33,402 --> 01:40:36,602
Bank runs are the solution to the problem, you moron.

1305
01:40:37,422 --> 01:40:40,782
Like a sound money is pointless if you don't have bank runs.

1306
01:40:40,782 --> 01:40:48,602
like who cares that money is sound yeah who cares that gold is sound gold being sound doesn't mean

1307
01:40:48,602 --> 01:40:52,142
anything because there's no bank runs because you can't because you can't bank run it you can't you

1308
01:40:52,142 --> 01:40:57,642
can't bank run a central bank of the gold and there's going to be a collection there's going

1309
01:40:57,642 --> 01:41:02,562
to be centralized custodian entities of any sound money no matter what there's no way you can stop

1310
01:41:02,562 --> 01:41:10,582
that but so the only fight to keep it relevant is to have exchange runs and and bank runs so can we

1311
01:41:10,582 --> 01:41:16,162
start should we start like a bet on polymarket of whether or not coinbase has the coins is that

1312
01:41:16,162 --> 01:41:20,842
a thing yet no because polymarket would need a way to answer that and the only solution to answer

1313
01:41:20,842 --> 01:41:27,762
that is my solution and nobody's like how is there going to be an outcome there's never going to be

1314
01:41:27,762 --> 01:41:33,982
an outcome no one's going to force them except for my way does there have to be does there have

1315
01:41:33,982 --> 01:41:39,062
to be a specific end date to make a bet yeah it's got to be an outcome you have to have well i mean

1316
01:41:39,062 --> 01:41:41,402
So there will be an outcome one day.

1317
01:41:41,662 --> 01:41:42,762
Oh, no. There's got to be a date.

1318
01:41:43,302 --> 01:41:45,082
Yeah. Okay. So there has to be a clear...

1319
01:41:45,082 --> 01:41:47,182
I guess that makes sense. You have to have a clear time frame.

1320
01:41:49,482 --> 01:41:51,142
What can you make a bet?

1321
01:41:51,302 --> 01:41:53,362
Because if you can come up with a bet

1322
01:41:53,362 --> 01:41:55,462
that would pressure...

1323
01:41:55,462 --> 01:41:57,342
somehow create pressure for Coinbase.

1324
01:41:57,562 --> 01:41:59,142
There's actually a financial...

1325
01:41:59,142 --> 01:42:01,202
There's actually a financial incentive for them to

1326
01:42:01,202 --> 01:42:02,302
prove one way or the other.

1327
01:42:02,302 --> 01:42:02,782
You know?

1328
01:42:03,682 --> 01:42:05,602
Well, you can just say, will

1329
01:42:05,602 --> 01:42:08,102
Coinbase offer proof of reserves

1330
01:42:08,102 --> 01:42:10,242
for all of their coins with Bitcoin

1331
01:42:10,242 --> 01:42:12,742
addresses by December 31st.

1332
01:42:12,782 --> 01:42:13,862
You could make that bet.

1333
01:42:14,662 --> 01:42:15,182
No.

1334
01:42:19,822 --> 01:42:22,462
Coinbase is going to be like, how many billions

1335
01:42:22,462 --> 01:42:23,642
are on this bet?

1336
01:42:23,862 --> 01:42:26,182
If the odds are really bad.

1337
01:42:26,182 --> 01:42:28,362
Hey, that might actually

1338
01:42:28,362 --> 01:42:28,782
work.

1339
01:42:29,062 --> 01:42:31,522
But they're like not even a billion.

1340
01:42:32,202 --> 01:42:33,462
They don't even notice it.

1341
01:42:36,362 --> 01:42:37,282
Oh, man.

1342
01:42:38,102 --> 01:42:46,142
But yeah, well, I think we're kind of at the end of this year.

1343
01:42:46,262 --> 01:42:50,342
Yeah, I will say there was one thing I kind of wanted to get to

1344
01:42:50,342 --> 01:42:55,782
with Jeff said about like the momentum is to not change Bitcoin.

1345
01:42:56,502 --> 01:42:59,382
And that's why it's hard to like, you know,

1346
01:42:59,702 --> 01:43:02,642
gather anybody for any kind of user activated software

1347
01:43:02,642 --> 01:43:03,562
or anything like that.

1348
01:43:04,562 --> 01:43:05,802
I agree with that.

1349
01:43:05,802 --> 01:43:15,802
But like not changing Bitcoin is very complicated because technically you can say that Taproot wasn't a change to Bitcoin.

1350
01:43:17,122 --> 01:43:26,942
And like right now, for example, Core is main pushes for the great consensus cleanup, which is a bit 54.

1351
01:43:27,622 --> 01:43:34,882
And from what it looks like, the way that they're going to activate this is just going to be completely invisibly.

1352
01:43:35,802 --> 01:43:48,402
They're reaching out to mining pool operators and trying to get the mining pool operators to buy in to begin with so that they can do this soft fork with essentially nobody even noticing.

1353
01:43:50,442 --> 01:43:58,802
So like soft forks that add features or whatever are weirdly in your camp of like not changing Bitcoin.

1354
01:44:00,282 --> 01:44:03,322
So it's like it's kind of complicated like that.

1355
01:44:03,322 --> 01:44:09,942
And unfortunately, I think we are in the dynamic now where we're kind of reliant upon this relationship.

1356
01:44:09,979 --> 01:44:14,979
between core and the miners and maybe exchanges really.

1357
01:44:15,859 --> 01:44:18,699
Like if core wants to push a feature,

1358
01:44:18,699 --> 01:44:23,699
like let's say core wants to enable a transaction type,

1359
01:44:24,019 --> 01:44:29,019
which would be videos for Citria advertisements.

1360
01:44:30,639 --> 01:44:31,479
Okay.

1361
01:44:32,259 --> 01:44:33,879
Like you mean like on the chain?

1362
01:44:34,959 --> 01:44:35,799
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1363
01:44:35,799 --> 01:44:41,499
A four megabyte witness inscription that's video advertisement for Citria.

1364
01:44:41,839 --> 01:44:47,939
They can do this with a soft fork just by getting miners to agree to it.

1365
01:44:48,259 --> 01:45:00,259
In a bizarre use of language, it would be technically considered a restriction of the rules.

1366
01:45:00,599 --> 01:45:02,739
And that's why it can be done with a soft fork.

1367
01:45:02,739 --> 01:45:12,239
because like if you talk to the super devs like Luke and all the all the super core devs

1368
01:45:12,239 --> 01:45:21,919
they'll say that taproot was a restriction of the rule set and that's why it could be done

1369
01:45:21,919 --> 01:45:28,719
with a soft fork even Matt Hill from start nine went on this thing about how all soft forks are

1370
01:45:28,719 --> 01:45:34,759
restrictions and they're technically right the weird thing is is that like if you add a new

1371
01:45:34,759 --> 01:45:42,599
transaction type to bitcoin and you do that with a soft fork that can be in the textbook definition

1372
01:45:42,599 --> 01:45:49,879
carved out as a restriction because to old nodes there's this massive anyone can spend thing which

1373
01:45:49,879 --> 01:45:57,299
is infinite and technically you're you're carving out that anyone can spend into a slightly smaller

1374
01:45:57,299 --> 01:46:08,019
set of infinite by by making a new transaction type that does this um and so right you're sort

1375
01:46:08,019 --> 01:46:13,559
of creating uh it's almost like you're creating an invalidation of an original transaction to

1376
01:46:13,559 --> 01:46:17,779
create a whole different to signal a whole different thing that's like the old nodes don't

1377
01:46:17,779 --> 01:46:24,799
even see exactly yeah because there's there's all this stuff that old nodes don't even see

1378
01:46:24,799 --> 01:46:32,359
you can create this new transaction type and soft work which has totally crazy features

1379
01:46:32,359 --> 01:46:40,999
right and you can say that that's not changing bitcoin and so i don't know it's just it's more

1380
01:46:40,999 --> 01:46:47,459
complicated than just um nodes will stand up and fight against any major change because

1381
01:46:47,459 --> 01:46:53,619
they can do major changes that are this is what i think knots or or some other competing

1382
01:46:53,619 --> 01:47:02,559
client that is very conservative and very stable but that offers filters and options and and kind

1383
01:47:02,559 --> 01:47:11,319
of counters everything core is doing is super duper important um and and and i think just like

1384
01:47:11,319 --> 01:47:18,299
slow and easy you know like being patient and allowing giving people i would assume it would

1385
01:47:18,299 --> 01:47:24,699
take years to, you know, give people the time to adopt these things, the time to get on board with

1386
01:47:24,699 --> 01:47:31,159
the conservative approach to Bitcoin or whatever. Like, you know, if you create a conservative

1387
01:47:31,159 --> 01:47:37,399
alternative client and your goal is to attract people that haven't updated their core client in

1388
01:47:37,399 --> 01:47:43,459
like five years, then you should expect that it might take five years for them to adopt

1389
01:47:43,459 --> 01:47:45,279
your client. You know what I mean?

1390
01:47:45,279 --> 01:47:47,039
Like, so, um,

1391
01:47:47,479 --> 01:47:49,219
so like, I think it's a

1392
01:47:49,219 --> 01:47:51,239
naturally painfully

1393
01:47:51,239 --> 01:47:52,959
slow process.

1394
01:47:53,899 --> 01:47:55,239
I set up a

1395
01:47:55,239 --> 01:47:57,139
knots node, but then my node got like

1396
01:47:57,139 --> 01:47:58,939
I've been moving around. And so

1397
01:47:58,939 --> 01:48:01,199
I'm not running any of the things that I would like

1398
01:48:01,199 --> 01:48:03,139
to be doing right now. And

1399
01:48:03,139 --> 01:48:05,239
my intention is

1400
01:48:05,239 --> 01:48:07,559
that in the future sometime I'm going to be

1401
01:48:07,559 --> 01:48:09,519
you know, running

1402
01:48:09,519 --> 01:48:11,439
a knots node that I can set the filters

1403
01:48:11,439 --> 01:48:13,279
I'm going to be mining on data. I'm going to be doing all

1404
01:48:13,279 --> 01:48:18,959
these things but right now like i don't know how long it's going to be before i'm in that situation

1405
01:48:18,959 --> 01:48:24,179
again you know like i'm not i'm not home i'm not i'm going to be you know we're driving across the

1406
01:48:24,179 --> 01:48:31,239
country or whatever in a month or so so like like when that's going to happen i have no idea like

1407
01:48:31,239 --> 01:48:37,719
and so this is just an intention i have that is again potentially years out you know i don't know

1408
01:48:37,719 --> 01:48:39,539
I know where I want to be

1409
01:48:39,539 --> 01:48:41,179
I know that I don't

1410
01:48:41,179 --> 01:48:44,039
I've also got cold storage setups

1411
01:48:44,039 --> 01:48:44,379
that

1412
01:48:44,379 --> 01:48:46,139
I'm

1413
01:48:46,139 --> 01:48:49,779
would like to do differently or whatever

1414
01:48:49,779 --> 01:48:51,759
I've got a multi-sig arrangement

1415
01:48:51,759 --> 01:48:52,739
that I need to change

1416
01:48:52,739 --> 01:48:54,479
but all these things are

1417
01:48:54,479 --> 01:48:57,139
I know I'm safe in what I've got right this second

1418
01:48:57,139 --> 01:48:58,819
it's not like an emergency

1419
01:48:58,819 --> 01:49:00,859
and so it's very

1420
01:49:00,859 --> 01:49:03,839
having the time and space to change

1421
01:49:03,839 --> 01:49:04,619
these things

1422
01:49:04,619 --> 01:49:06,999
is kind of a

1423
01:49:07,719 --> 01:49:08,539
a critical thing.

1424
01:49:08,619 --> 01:49:09,139
Like you don't,

1425
01:49:09,199 --> 01:49:10,279
you don't just move,

1426
01:49:10,459 --> 01:49:10,839
you know,

1427
01:49:11,359 --> 01:49:12,419
lots of money tomorrow,

1428
01:49:12,599 --> 01:49:12,859
you know,

1429
01:49:12,879 --> 01:49:13,699
for no reason,

1430
01:49:13,819 --> 01:49:14,039
you know,

1431
01:49:14,079 --> 01:49:14,339
you,

1432
01:49:14,459 --> 01:49:16,959
you kind of want everything to be right.

1433
01:49:17,119 --> 01:49:27,862
Everything moves slow and deliberate or it should Right Yeah And and it the same thing if you especially if you running a business or anything else Like you need you know you need a setup that just works

1434
01:49:28,262 --> 01:49:29,422
You can't have downtime.

1435
01:49:30,242 --> 01:49:47,422
I will say too, with just kind of like that idea, is that one of the benefits of like staying and pushing towards minor and client decentralization or alternative,

1436
01:49:47,482 --> 01:49:55,562
alternatives um like block template and then client alternatives is that every single time

1437
01:49:55,562 --> 01:50:02,802
like something is contentious with kind of like the status quo group or the status quo maintainers

1438
01:50:02,802 --> 01:50:11,982
or whatever it is like the the resistance gets larger and more important you know like this

1439
01:50:11,982 --> 01:50:19,182
whole debacle around op return has made more of a push towards alternative clients and conversations

1440
01:50:19,182 --> 01:50:26,442
around needing resistance, I guess, against one group just kind of making decisions and dismissing

1441
01:50:26,442 --> 01:50:34,542
everybody else's input than I've seen in Bitcoin in a long time. Like there's multiple people and

1442
01:50:34,542 --> 01:50:40,502
or groups talking about creating a new client geared toward a different thing. Samson Mal and

1443
01:50:40,502 --> 01:50:47,602
their group, the production ready or whatever it is, is talking about creating a client,

1444
01:50:47,742 --> 01:50:56,062
John Attack. I think he would be a great candidate for putting, he seems invested and motivated to do

1445
01:50:56,062 --> 01:51:01,282
the exact same sort of thing and was asking advice on, you know, would you support this?

1446
01:51:01,382 --> 01:51:05,482
Would you be interested in what should I do and how should I do it? Multiple people even said,

1447
01:51:05,482 --> 01:51:11,062
you should keep the knots client running and you should just take knots and extend it and put it

1448
01:51:11,062 --> 01:51:16,002
into your own. That was you? Yeah. But that's a great, great example though. I think that's a

1449
01:51:16,002 --> 01:51:23,382
wonderful push. And the thing is, is if, if we had 2% of the network or 10% of the nodes or whatever,

1450
01:51:23,682 --> 01:51:30,822
and then something happens again and you know, you stay, you stay in the game and you don't go

1451
01:51:30,822 --> 01:51:36,742
all in and you don't, you know, throw everything in on one hand, they put their foot in their

1452
01:51:36,742 --> 01:51:41,262
mouth again, or something again, looks like a total dismissal.

1453
01:51:41,482 --> 01:51:43,282
You catch more people next time.

1454
01:51:44,202 --> 01:51:47,602
You know, like, like we saw a big bump in all of this, right?

1455
01:51:47,682 --> 01:51:49,642
Because of this last debacle.

1456
01:51:50,402 --> 01:51:56,482
What if next time it's, it's over demurrage, you know, what if next time it's a contentiousness

1457
01:51:56,482 --> 01:51:57,402
about quantum?

1458
01:51:57,402 --> 01:52:02,922
like whoever is the dominant alternative is going to be the best hedge we have against

1459
01:52:02,922 --> 01:52:08,662
taking a rushed or stupid approach. Maybe it's the great consensus cleanup. And there's

1460
01:52:08,662 --> 01:52:14,462
disagreement over some of the changes and what those consequences might be. I think you have to

1461
01:52:14,462 --> 01:52:26,362
wait for the, the quote unquote, establishment to push things aggressively. And because every

1462
01:52:26,362 --> 01:52:33,002
single thing and every single upgrade is going to have some degree of pushback and that i think

1463
01:52:33,002 --> 01:52:40,062
creates natural resistance um but you know whatever i still think i still think the trajectory is

1464
01:52:40,062 --> 01:52:46,482
actually pretty good um because of a lot of what's going on noster was created in response to

1465
01:52:46,482 --> 01:52:52,942
censorship on twitter and other social media and and it saw its greatest periods of growth

1466
01:52:52,942 --> 01:52:55,342
during the worst of the censorship, you know.

1467
01:52:55,722 --> 01:52:58,042
And it also kind of declined when Elon took over

1468
01:52:58,042 --> 01:53:01,282
and just kind of like stamped out a bunch of

1469
01:53:01,282 --> 01:53:05,322
what people were complaining about or like frustrated with.

1470
01:53:05,382 --> 01:53:06,502
This is the risk.

1471
01:53:06,682 --> 01:53:09,242
If Core is starting to make changes

1472
01:53:09,242 --> 01:53:11,562
and trying to do it covertly and quietly,

1473
01:53:12,342 --> 01:53:15,922
then it's sort of similar to, you know,

1474
01:53:15,922 --> 01:53:19,102
if Twitter and Facebook and all these other things

1475
01:53:19,102 --> 01:53:22,262
can use algorithms and quietly censor

1476
01:53:22,262 --> 01:53:25,782
and blacklist people without them even realizing

1477
01:53:25,782 --> 01:53:28,422
how much they're being censored or blacklisted,

1478
01:53:28,662 --> 01:53:33,382
then you have much less obvious reasons

1479
01:53:33,382 --> 01:53:34,942
to drive people to alternatives.

1480
01:53:35,822 --> 01:53:38,522
So if Core is doing this,

1481
01:53:39,302 --> 01:53:42,262
like we're just going to quietly move it in the direction we want,

1482
01:53:42,562 --> 01:53:44,882
then you don't have these contentious things

1483
01:53:44,882 --> 01:53:47,362
where people are bothered by what's happening.

1484
01:53:47,922 --> 01:53:49,222
Nobody even pays attention to it.

1485
01:53:49,222 --> 01:54:03,942
So we need people that are in Bitcoin, that are paying attention to what the hell they're doing and making it known when they're doing something that's undesirable and making noise about it so that there's reason to adopt knots or whatever else.

1486
01:54:07,262 --> 01:54:15,342
I'd say I agree with you guys, but I also have the sense in which I'm thinking about that same thing on a different layer.

1487
01:54:16,582 --> 01:54:18,042
So I agree with you.

1488
01:54:18,042 --> 01:54:29,922
It is we need to have more competing clients and more kind of difficult conversations and a group to kind of fight against core within like the mothership here.

1489
01:54:29,922 --> 01:54:53,224
But I also kind of like rethinking my idea of being like a single coin maxi so hard If like maybe that was an attack vector like I like now that there going to be more hard forks because now we have not just competing

1490
01:54:53,224 --> 01:54:58,245
It's kind of like if you're the state of North Carolina, right?

1491
01:54:58,245 --> 01:55:06,185
Yeah, it's good to have like competing camps and factions in the government of North Carolina for making better decisions overall.

1492
01:55:06,664 --> 01:55:08,505
It's also good to have the state of Virginia.

1493
01:55:09,505 --> 01:55:09,584
Yeah.

1494
01:55:09,964 --> 01:55:19,625
You know, it's also good to have people leaving the state and moving to a different state as a check on that state, you know.

1495
01:55:20,464 --> 01:55:21,524
So like.

1496
01:55:22,024 --> 01:55:23,964
I actually completely agree with you.

1497
01:55:24,024 --> 01:55:27,204
It's not it's not black and white either way.

1498
01:55:27,204 --> 01:55:42,704
And I actually said this way back in 2017 was that, you know, despite the fact that I disagreed and thought like this wasn't the right path and didn't believe like thought big blocks were not the way to go.

1499
01:55:42,925 --> 01:55:49,185
I was actually really happy with the fork because I recognize that I don't know.

1500
01:55:50,485 --> 01:55:52,704
You know, like I'm not an experiment.

1501
01:55:53,164 --> 01:55:54,324
It's an experiment.

1502
01:55:54,324 --> 01:55:55,644
It is an experiment.

1503
01:55:55,824 --> 01:55:56,284
Exactly.

1504
01:55:56,284 --> 01:56:01,945
and that's why i think bitcoin overall wins it's not because it's a single chain

1505
01:56:01,945 --> 01:56:06,925
it's that it has the ability to soft fork and hard fork and like all that stuff i said about

1506
01:56:06,925 --> 01:56:14,245
the basement like that's part of the magic of it and i mean yeah maybe like okay i'll grant you guys

1507
01:56:14,245 --> 01:56:20,385
if luke would have stayed the course would have made a longer plan would have gathered more momentum

1508
01:56:20,385 --> 01:56:25,565
before he you know tried to propose something as serious as a soft fork like that maybe that

1509
01:56:25,565 --> 01:56:31,685
have worked out better. I'll grant you guys that. Maybe that would have been a better path,

1510
01:56:31,764 --> 01:56:37,404
but that just wasn't going to happen with how Luke was feeling about his position in the space.

1511
01:56:39,125 --> 01:56:46,425
Now that he's forked off, I go back to what I used to tell my meetup a long time ago,

1512
01:56:46,425 --> 01:56:51,164
where I was like, guys, I'm not a fan of Bitcoin. I'm a fan of the strongest,

1513
01:56:51,164 --> 01:56:55,724
most decentralized cryptocurrency and i don't care what the name of that cryptocurrency is

1514
01:56:56,284 --> 01:57:00,685
because this is about fighting fiat i mean i don't i don't care if it's even cryptocurrency

1515
01:57:00,685 --> 01:57:06,204
it's like a magic technology appeared tomorrow and wasn't cryptocurrency and had a better chance

1516
01:57:06,204 --> 01:57:14,125
of killing fiat i'd be on that ship immediately um so like you know it's kind of it's a pandora's

1517
01:57:14,125 --> 01:57:21,445
box it's the medusa that like splits its heads when it needs to and like terminator and like you

1518
01:57:21,445 --> 01:57:28,005
know it goes into a million different like liquid metal stuff and then like recombines and stuff um

1519
01:57:28,005 --> 01:57:34,245
i don't know i'd say it like that i mean i'm with you guy yeah it's it's overall good um there's a

1520
01:57:34,245 --> 01:57:42,005
possibility and a very non-zero possibility and it'll be really interesting in fact it may very

1521
01:57:42,005 --> 01:57:50,784
will be inevitable at some point in Bitcoin's future, that capacity to hard fork may actually

1522
01:57:50,784 --> 01:57:53,904
be what saves it from some disaster.

1523
01:57:53,904 --> 01:58:02,024
And that the hard fork itself, a contentious and very violent fork actually becomes the

1524
01:58:02,024 --> 01:58:06,784
dominant chain in some way or the change with the least inertia, right?

1525
01:58:06,784 --> 01:58:13,985
The one that is genuinely the change is actually the one that succeeds or wins.

1526
01:58:14,625 --> 01:58:25,404
And it may purely be because they split in a very close way, you know, like maybe even as a minority, you know, 40, 60 type thing.

1527
01:58:25,745 --> 01:58:30,985
When there is a huge contentiousness or a basic, very likely a political.

1528
01:58:31,784 --> 01:58:33,404
It could be a huge political battle.

1529
01:58:33,404 --> 01:58:38,224
but the minority simply survives out of the correct path.

1530
01:58:38,545 --> 01:58:40,545
You know, like the other one simply succumbs

1531
01:58:40,545 --> 01:58:42,824
to whatever the vulnerability or the risk was.

1532
01:58:43,464 --> 01:58:47,444
So I would even wager that it's more likely

1533
01:58:47,444 --> 01:58:49,805
that it would be a small minority,

1534
01:58:50,305 --> 01:58:52,564
10 or 20% that forked off.

1535
01:58:52,724 --> 01:58:55,925
And then that surviving after 10 or 20 years

1536
01:58:55,925 --> 01:58:58,324
to become the dominant thing.

1537
01:58:58,605 --> 01:59:02,605
That may be what the next reserve currency shift

1538
01:59:02,605 --> 01:59:08,485
looks like after a post-Bitcoin world, you know? Yeah. If you, if you look at how things tend to

1539
01:59:08,485 --> 01:59:16,164
happen, I mean, you know, Ron Paul, Bitcoiners in general were laughed at for how many years before,

1540
01:59:16,164 --> 01:59:22,545
you know, is like, oh, okay, this thing's for real. Ron Paul was, you know, being made fun of

1541
01:59:22,545 --> 01:59:30,824
on daily talk on day, daytime talk shows in the eighties for his views. And there is nobody that

1542
01:59:30,824 --> 01:59:39,664
has more uh you know like in the political world has has any more respect and followers that are

1543
01:59:39,664 --> 01:59:52,427
more hardcore than ron paul has you know yeah and so it just takes time how many bitcoiners will still say today oh i a Ron Paul supporter You know Dude I went back I watched that video last week

1544
01:59:52,527 --> 01:59:53,767
the exact one you're talking about,

1545
01:59:53,827 --> 01:59:57,647
the 80s Donahue thing and his Congress speeches.

1546
01:59:57,647 --> 02:00:00,647
And I was like, man, I feel so guilty

1547
02:00:00,647 --> 02:00:02,247
of being one of those guys

1548
02:00:02,247 --> 02:00:04,567
that just dismissed him for being a freak.

1549
02:00:04,707 --> 02:00:08,127
Now, everything I watch from him is so right.

1550
02:00:09,187 --> 02:00:11,087
It's so freaking correct.

1551
02:00:11,087 --> 02:00:17,127
It's amazing how sensible and clear he could explain things to.

1552
02:00:17,267 --> 02:00:17,987
He just had a way.

1553
02:00:18,387 --> 02:00:18,947
He was great.

1554
02:00:19,367 --> 02:00:20,207
It's weird, man.

1555
02:00:20,387 --> 02:00:23,487
It's weird because when I was learning a lot of this stuff,

1556
02:00:23,567 --> 02:00:25,307
Ron Paul did not do it for me.

1557
02:00:25,907 --> 02:00:26,247
No.

1558
02:00:26,747 --> 02:00:30,647
I had to learn it through Milton Friedman and Thomas Sow

1559
02:00:30,647 --> 02:00:34,967
and people that were very, like Thomas Sow and Milton Friedman

1560
02:00:34,967 --> 02:00:37,267
are much, much better speakers than Ron Paul.

1561
02:00:37,267 --> 02:00:39,347
Ron Paul always sounds kind of bumbly.

1562
02:00:39,347 --> 02:00:45,447
he's right when he's right and his message is actually fairly clear but he kind of bumbles

1563
02:00:45,447 --> 02:00:50,987
around about it like he's not he's not as easy to listen to and this was the same thing i had i had

1564
02:00:50,987 --> 02:00:56,787
a friend that would always try to get me to listen to rothbard and i did not have any respect for

1565
02:00:56,787 --> 02:01:02,587
rothbard until after i understood everything else you know that then rothbard was very hard to listen

1566
02:01:02,587 --> 02:01:10,627
to um he's very nasally you know very like it just he was just much more difficult to um to to

1567
02:01:10,627 --> 02:01:16,727
hear there's some amount of stuff like it's painful to hear things that you don't already agree with

1568
02:01:16,727 --> 02:01:21,967
and so there's an amount of like can you handle the pain of this thing you don't already agree

1569
02:01:21,967 --> 02:01:27,727
with plus the slightly annoying thing in this guy's voice and yeah yeah like there's multiple

1570
02:01:27,727 --> 02:01:33,447
factors and um and the thing is it's different for everybody too like there's some people that

1571
02:01:33,447 --> 02:01:38,947
might not like listening to you know like i mean i would say somebody with like a voice like thomas

1572
02:01:38,947 --> 02:01:44,827
is easier to listen to just in general but but there it is really different for different people

1573
02:01:44,827 --> 02:01:49,327
so you like i've tried to explain to people that you need stepping stones you need people that are

1574
02:01:49,327 --> 02:01:56,427
closer to wherever a person is to help them get there because you can't go you cannot go from

1575
02:01:56,427 --> 02:01:58,687
MAGA supporter to Rothbard

1576
02:01:58,687 --> 02:02:00,227
in one go.

1577
02:02:00,407 --> 02:02:01,867
I don't think that's a thing.

1578
02:02:02,667 --> 02:02:04,527
I had to go through Bitcoin to get

1579
02:02:04,527 --> 02:02:05,187
the Ron Paul.

1580
02:02:05,807 --> 02:02:08,807
I would never have gotten there if it went for Bitcoin.

1581
02:02:09,567 --> 02:02:09,727
Yeah.

1582
02:02:10,827 --> 02:02:12,647
Well, that's a good

1583
02:02:12,647 --> 02:02:14,627
note to end this on, I think. I gotta wrap

1584
02:02:14,627 --> 02:02:16,667
up. Got some things to do. Thank you

1585
02:02:16,667 --> 02:02:17,747
guys for joining us.

1586
02:02:18,567 --> 02:02:20,947
Wrap Bitcoin on Coinbase.

1587
02:02:21,227 --> 02:02:22,187
Wrap Bitcoin on Coinbase.

1588
02:02:23,047 --> 02:02:24,007
That's the way.

1589
02:02:24,007 --> 02:02:27,367
hey all coinbase is paper

1590
02:02:27,367 --> 02:02:29,587
wrapped bitcoin is better paper

1591
02:02:29,587 --> 02:02:31,047
than coinbase paper

1592
02:02:31,047 --> 02:02:32,627
and 21 and 6 bug

1593
02:02:32,627 --> 02:02:33,627
don't forget

1594
02:02:33,627 --> 02:02:36,027
better paper

1595
02:02:36,027 --> 02:02:37,507
oh god

1596
02:02:37,507 --> 02:02:40,987
I'm still all for withdrawal day

1597
02:02:40,987 --> 02:02:42,707
what is it called proof of coins day

1598
02:02:42,707 --> 02:02:43,647
what do we call it

1599
02:02:43,647 --> 02:02:44,647
proof of keys day

1600
02:02:44,647 --> 02:02:47,027
and that one includes wrapped bitcoin

1601
02:02:47,027 --> 02:02:49,187
withdraw it to your base bitcoin

1602
02:02:49,187 --> 02:02:50,247
that's fine

1603
02:02:50,247 --> 02:02:52,967
we can include that in there

1604
02:02:52,967 --> 02:02:53,747
alright guys

1605
02:02:53,747 --> 02:02:58,307
uh all right guys you guys later later later

1606
02:02:58,307 --> 02:03:11,787
that will wrap us up a farewell to mechanic on the round table and uh if you guys actually have

1607
02:03:11,787 --> 02:03:20,267
any suggestions to the semi-permanent fourth person that we want on the show uh i would love

1608
02:03:20,267 --> 02:03:21,867
to actually take suggestions.

1609
02:03:22,147 --> 02:03:24,047
I'll be reaching out to a number of people

1610
02:03:24,047 --> 02:03:25,287
just to see who's interested.

1611
02:03:26,127 --> 02:03:28,527
And I want to keep this show fun

1612
02:03:28,527 --> 02:03:31,127
and I want to keep talking about all this stuff

1613
02:03:31,127 --> 02:03:34,567
and covering any issues or questions you guys have.

1614
02:03:35,047 --> 02:03:36,607
And I wanted to be a good group

1615
02:03:36,607 --> 02:03:37,967
that has experience,

1616
02:03:38,327 --> 02:03:41,207
that is willing to speak their mind

1617
02:03:41,207 --> 02:03:45,347
even when maybe it costs them a lot.

1618
02:03:45,347 --> 02:03:48,187
And I always have appreciated Mechanic

1619
02:03:48,187 --> 02:03:51,247
and his candidness.

1620
02:03:51,707 --> 02:03:52,927
So let me know what you guys think.

1621
02:03:53,107 --> 02:03:55,607
Do not forget, if you've got an older version of the BitBox,

1622
02:03:56,287 --> 02:03:59,947
do not forget to get the DickSense upgrade.

1623
02:04:00,227 --> 02:04:01,947
That sounds the DickSense.

1624
02:04:02,287 --> 02:04:03,027
DickSense.

1625
02:04:05,367 --> 02:04:06,847
BitBox guy's going to be mad at that one.

1626
02:04:08,227 --> 02:04:09,467
BitBox, put it in your butt.

1627
02:04:09,647 --> 02:04:10,727
Get the DickSense upgrade.

1628
02:04:12,827 --> 02:04:15,267
Anyway, get the update to the firmware

1629
02:04:15,267 --> 02:04:18,167
to cover that USB bug.

1630
02:04:18,287 --> 02:04:20,367
There's also a much less severe

1631
02:04:20,367 --> 02:04:22,507
but other little side bug

1632
02:04:22,507 --> 02:04:24,947
that we will be covering in the issue

1633
02:04:24,947 --> 02:04:26,867
or the guy's take where I go over

1634
02:04:26,867 --> 02:04:28,087
a lot of the red teaming

1635
02:04:28,087 --> 02:04:31,647
in addition to the hacks from Trezor and Ledger.

1636
02:04:31,987 --> 02:04:34,327
Also, these are not entropy bug hacks

1637
02:04:34,327 --> 02:04:36,847
like cold card, nothing to worry about there.

1638
02:04:36,967 --> 02:04:39,127
These are like email hacks

1639
02:04:39,127 --> 02:04:43,107
and software hacks, all of these sorts of things.

1640
02:04:43,107 --> 02:04:48,907
There's a lot of layers on top of a lot of these things that are getting hit.

1641
02:04:48,907 --> 02:04:54,347
Actually the list is quite long of everything there is to go to, which is partially very

1642
02:04:54,347 --> 02:04:59,927
reassuring, but also kind of scary because there's core lightning.

1643
02:04:59,990 --> 02:05:01,850
There's, I think there was an L and D one.

1644
02:05:01,930 --> 02:05:03,090
There's BTC pay server.

1645
02:05:03,190 --> 02:05:04,470
Like we had a lot to go through.

1646
02:05:04,610 --> 02:05:06,450
So that's why we're dedicating an episode to it.

1647
02:05:06,510 --> 02:05:07,390
So stay tuned to that.

1648
02:05:07,490 --> 02:05:11,190
Do not forget to subscribe to the guys take YouTube channel.

1649
02:05:11,650 --> 02:05:13,770
That's G U Y S T A K E.

1650
02:05:14,250 --> 02:05:15,750
And this is our newer channel,

1651
02:05:15,750 --> 02:05:19,190
which we are trying to get off the ground and still bootstrapping.

1652
02:05:19,390 --> 02:05:20,730
So any subscription,

1653
02:05:21,090 --> 02:05:25,810
and then also this a huge and incredibly easy way to help out the show.

1654
02:05:25,890 --> 02:05:28,810
And you obviously you get more of our wonderful content,

1655
02:05:28,810 --> 02:05:36,390
which how could you not want that and uh you could do it right now and then of course share

1656
02:05:36,390 --> 02:05:43,250
it out with everybody you know um follow me on twitter as well as a simple steve or steve uses

1657
02:05:43,250 --> 02:05:47,910
yeah simple steve and jeff and all the crew and i will catch you guys on the next episode

1658
02:05:47,910 --> 02:05:53,350
this is bitcoin audible i am guy swan and that is our two sets

1659
02:05:58,810 --> 02:06:28,790
We'll see you next time.