1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,060
You pay Netflix 35 bucks pretty much no matter what.

2
00:00:03,060 --> 00:00:07,340
The people who run Netflix, the handful of people at the top,

3
00:00:07,660 --> 00:00:09,900
get to decide how to allocate that capital.

4
00:00:10,220 --> 00:00:12,880
So you don't really know where that money is going.

5
00:00:13,300 --> 00:00:14,980
They don't really, they don't tell you,

6
00:00:15,180 --> 00:00:16,140
they don't tell the filmmakers.

7
00:00:16,420 --> 00:00:17,920
The filmmakers no longer have equity.

8
00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:20,940
They don't have any incentive to do anything

9
00:00:20,940 --> 00:00:22,120
even remotely interesting.

10
00:00:22,540 --> 00:00:26,000
The whole structure from top to bottom is now broken.

11
00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:28,920
The incentive system has been totally destroyed.

12
00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:57,480
In December 2025, Netflix shocked Hollywood by announcing it will acquire Warner Bros,

13
00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:03,500
legendary studio behind DC, Harry Potter franchise and HBO for $82.7 billion.

14
00:01:03,500 --> 00:01:07,520
Paramount Skydance quickly launched a counter offer aiming to control not just the movie

15
00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:12,240
and TV studios but also cable networks like Discovery Channel and TNT.

16
00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:16,140
David Ellison's bid, founder of Skydance, backed by family members and international

17
00:01:16,140 --> 00:01:20,840
investor could make him one of the most powerful figures in media.

18
00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:25,980
Even if Netflix wins, Consolidation will drop competition, shrink theatrical windows and

19
00:01:25,980 --> 00:01:30,300
leave actors, writers and directors with fewer studios to work with.

20
00:01:30,300 --> 00:01:34,980
Theatre owners will be hit hard and fewer films might actually get made.

21
00:01:34,980 --> 00:01:39,980
At the same time, Christopher Nolan, now president of Directors Guild, is leading emergency talks

22
00:01:39,980 --> 00:01:42,740
to protect theatres and the cinematic experience.

23
00:01:42,740 --> 00:01:48,460
Steven Spielberg is backing him, fighting to ensure classic libraries like TCM are buried

24
00:01:48,460 --> 00:01:52,140
in algorithms and that directors maintain creative control.

25
00:01:52,140 --> 00:01:57,980
This fight isn't about box office numbers, it's about who decides what gets made, where

26
00:01:57,980 --> 00:02:01,320
it seems and who gets shot out.

27
00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:07,680
Today we're joined by Zach Mahoney, founder of IndieHuff, to break down why Hollywood

28
00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:13,460
is broken and how Bitcoin is giving indie creators a real shot at freedom.

29
00:02:13,460 --> 00:02:14,460
Welcome.

30
00:02:14,460 --> 00:02:15,300
Happy New Year, happy to be here.

31
00:02:15,300 --> 00:02:16,580
Thank you for having me on.

32
00:02:16,580 --> 00:02:17,580
Yeah.

33
00:02:17,580 --> 00:02:18,580
Celali, how are you?

34
00:02:18,580 --> 00:02:19,580
It's been a long time.

35
00:02:19,580 --> 00:02:25,220
I don't know if this is going to be the first, probably not, but one of the first episodes of the new season.

36
00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:28,160
Yeah, well, of our partner season? Yes.

37
00:02:28,580 --> 00:02:30,680
Yeah, so yeah, big topic.

38
00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:36,740
I think if I'm not mistaken, this is one of the biggest in history, like the media takeover.

39
00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:43,380
And just recently with the court case as well, like Paramount suits Warner Bros, right?

40
00:02:43,460 --> 00:02:46,580
They wore details, so the fight is like getting bigger and bigger.

41
00:02:46,580 --> 00:02:52,500
So I like the point that you mentioned that it's not the fight about like, again, that the fight is actually bigger.

42
00:02:52,640 --> 00:02:53,380
You indicated it.

43
00:02:53,420 --> 00:02:55,860
So I'm very curious about what Zach thinks about it.

44
00:02:56,220 --> 00:03:05,280
And Zach, maybe just to you, because I want the audience to understand your experience and your talents, let's say, a little bit better.

45
00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:11,160
So if I may say you are not only entrepreneur, you are not only, let's say, a founder of IndieHub.

46
00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:15,880
You were also a working actor and you are also a filmmaker yourself, right?

47
00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:21,940
So you've been working, directing and editing independent productions, but also commercial ones.

48
00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:22,620
Am I correct?

49
00:03:22,920 --> 00:03:23,080
Yeah.

50
00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:23,880
Yeah, correct.

51
00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:24,640
Absolutely.

52
00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:27,760
So a perfect, a perfect case for the topic.

53
00:03:27,900 --> 00:03:29,320
And you are also based in LA, right?

54
00:03:29,620 --> 00:03:29,860
Yes.

55
00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:37,220
Yeah, if you can share a little bit about your background so people can know a little bit about you if they're hearing for the first time.

56
00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:37,720
Yeah, yeah.

57
00:03:37,740 --> 00:03:38,240
No problem at all.

58
00:03:38,420 --> 00:03:38,780
Pardon me.

59
00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:39,020
Jeez.

60
00:03:39,380 --> 00:03:40,100
Totally unprofessional.

61
00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:41,060
Lots of coughing.

62
00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:43,660
Human being.

63
00:03:43,940 --> 00:03:44,280
Absolutely.

64
00:03:45,020 --> 00:03:49,360
I started my career, basically my whole professional career has been in film and television.

65
00:03:49,620 --> 00:03:53,380
I started acting when I was quite young.

66
00:03:53,900 --> 00:03:58,340
I'm from a small town up in Northern California, and I started doing like little plays and stuff like that up there.

67
00:03:58,340 --> 00:04:03,680
But I had a unique opportunity, about 13, 14 years old.

68
00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:09,840
Long story short, an independent movie production had come to the town I was from, and they wanted to shoot there, and they wanted to cast there.

69
00:04:10,020 --> 00:04:12,540
And a lot of details, drowning out a lot of details later.

70
00:04:12,540 --> 00:04:17,720
Through that project, I ended up getting an offer for some legitimate representation down in LA.

71
00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:19,440
And this was over 20 years ago.

72
00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:20,820
So the industry was very different.

73
00:04:20,900 --> 00:04:21,660
The world was very different.

74
00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:26,700
So I had an opportunity for a great manager.

75
00:04:27,260 --> 00:04:28,860
She basically said, hey, I think you have a lot of talent.

76
00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:31,560
If you're interested in acting professionally, I'd like to manage your career.

77
00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:35,680
I was quite young at the time, maybe 15, 14, 15, something like that.

78
00:04:35,900 --> 00:04:41,440
So I said, hell yes, get me out of here and tested out of high school very early.

79
00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:44,800
and the second that I could move to LA, I did.

80
00:04:44,980 --> 00:04:48,520
I started auditioning, flying back and forth

81
00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:50,900
before I was able to actually test out of high school

82
00:04:50,900 --> 00:04:51,540
and move back down.

83
00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:54,020
But I came down to LA and my plan was basically,

84
00:04:54,220 --> 00:04:56,660
if I don't, back then there was something called pilot season

85
00:04:56,660 --> 00:04:58,720
that was a very big deal.

86
00:04:58,820 --> 00:05:00,100
I think they still do it to some extent,

87
00:05:00,180 --> 00:05:01,860
but it's just, it's not like what it was.

88
00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:04,020
And this is where everybody from all over the world

89
00:05:04,020 --> 00:05:05,820
would sort of converge onto LA

90
00:05:05,820 --> 00:05:07,380
who thought they had any talent at all.

91
00:05:07,500 --> 00:05:09,800
And basically all the networks would be testing out pilots.

92
00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:11,180
So you'd go shoot the pilot episode

93
00:05:11,180 --> 00:05:12,420
of a given idea or a show.

94
00:05:12,540 --> 00:05:15,060
So you had just a massive amount of auditions.

95
00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:16,400
It was total chaos.

96
00:05:16,580 --> 00:05:17,940
It was an insane amount of work.

97
00:05:18,020 --> 00:05:19,700
And then, you know, that was usually early in the year,

98
00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:20,620
January, February, March.

99
00:05:20,820 --> 00:05:22,360
And, you know, basically if you're,

100
00:05:22,580 --> 00:05:24,480
if you got cast on a pilot, your pilot got picked up,

101
00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:26,460
you know, that was off to the races for you.

102
00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:28,320
So I went down and I said, look,

103
00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:29,440
if I don't book any work in this,

104
00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:31,200
in three months in this pilot season,

105
00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:33,220
then I'll go back home and I'll go to community college

106
00:05:33,220 --> 00:05:34,560
and do whatever I was going to do anyway.

107
00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:37,180
And so I started, started working right away.

108
00:05:37,300 --> 00:05:38,500
Booked my first job with like,

109
00:05:38,580 --> 00:05:39,780
right within that three month window.

110
00:05:39,780 --> 00:05:43,740
And that job led to a play and that play led to a huge commercial.

111
00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:44,940
And that was pretty much it.

112
00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:55,960
Got my union card and continued to act professionally in a lot of commercials, TV, theater, a bunch of indies, about a million short films, things like that.

113
00:05:56,140 --> 00:05:57,760
Then 2008 hit.

114
00:05:58,080 --> 00:05:59,360
Now, excuse me.

115
00:06:00,180 --> 00:06:00,840
Do you want to drink water?

116
00:06:01,340 --> 00:06:01,960
I know.

117
00:06:02,060 --> 00:06:03,120
It's like I'm dying here.

118
00:06:05,380 --> 00:06:08,700
2008 was a very similar setup to what's happening right now.

119
00:06:08,700 --> 00:06:13,440
And I, of course, I didn't know this at the time because I was, I took the financial crisis.

120
00:06:13,620 --> 00:06:13,940
Correct.

121
00:06:14,260 --> 00:06:14,480
Yeah.

122
00:06:14,580 --> 00:06:14,900
Correct.

123
00:06:15,100 --> 00:06:15,260
Yeah.

124
00:06:15,300 --> 00:06:16,680
You had, you had three things.

125
00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:20,040
I can kind of get into this in a minute or I can dive in right now, but you have three

126
00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:21,740
things that will happen.

127
00:06:22,020 --> 00:06:27,820
If these three things get like demolished in any industry simultaneously, like you can

128
00:06:27,820 --> 00:06:30,040
expect that industry to have massive disruption.

129
00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:35,780
And in 2008, you basically had, it's a convergence of politics, technology, and economics.

130
00:06:35,780 --> 00:06:40,920
So I, for brevity's sake, I shorten it to Canon release the 5D Mark II.

131
00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:44,000
But there was a lot of other technological innovation happening at that time.

132
00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:45,840
NLEs were coming out.

133
00:06:45,940 --> 00:06:47,280
Final Cut was challenging Avid.

134
00:06:47,500 --> 00:06:49,880
The internet, you know, bandwidth was getting better.

135
00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:51,020
YouTube had just been launched.

136
00:06:51,260 --> 00:06:53,360
But basically, you had technology, politics.

137
00:06:53,500 --> 00:06:54,860
You had the writer's strike back then as well.

138
00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:55,760
It was the same deal.

139
00:06:56,080 --> 00:06:59,280
So production shut down and then the economy collapsed.

140
00:06:59,420 --> 00:07:01,740
So all three of those things totally decimated the industry.

141
00:07:01,740 --> 00:07:08,160
and it took a long time for everything basically to get rebuilt back into Netflix. So similar things

142
00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:12,600
are happening now and the industry is going through a similar revolution. You've got technology,

143
00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:17,260
politics, economics. It's all converging. Again, we kind of have these like 15 year

144
00:07:17,260 --> 00:07:22,300
waves. But anyways, early in my career, I had zero respect for money. I had zero respect for

145
00:07:22,300 --> 00:07:26,340
finance. I had zero respect for business at all, like none negative respect. I was like,

146
00:07:26,340 --> 00:07:30,240
I'm an actor. I'm going to focus on my craft. That's what I'm going to do. I don't care about

147
00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:34,440
anything else. And I did. And I did that for quite a while. And I was in my little bubble.

148
00:07:34,820 --> 00:07:40,220
But when so, so I, I kind of came into the industry at the very tail end of what the old

149
00:07:40,220 --> 00:07:45,620
business model looked like. And I had quite quickly, I had very big opportunities. I was in

150
00:07:45,620 --> 00:07:49,560
some very big rooms and I was climbing the ladder. And back then there was a little bit

151
00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:53,380
of a structured ladder and it wasn't just for actors. It was kind of for the whole

152
00:07:53,380 --> 00:07:58,140
industry in general. If you wanted to be an editor, there was a, there was a union ladder to

153
00:07:58,140 --> 00:08:02,300
climb. If you wanted to be an actor there, you know, it is basically a process. 2008 changed

154
00:08:02,300 --> 00:08:05,660
all that. Everything went backwards. YouTube came out. Nobody knew what the hell was going to go on.

155
00:08:05,700 --> 00:08:11,060
Nobody knew where the money was coming from. But my point is, is that for the first, first half of

156
00:08:11,060 --> 00:08:14,240
my career, I was very focused on the art. And then the second half, I started to like, as the

157
00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:19,440
industry was rebuilding itself, I started to go out on auditions that were just like, I'm not,

158
00:08:19,780 --> 00:08:23,660
I didn't come down here to like do this kind of stuff. And I'm not going to like run around and

159
00:08:23,660 --> 00:08:27,660
stress out and freak out about these kinds of jobs. So I said, to hell with it, I'll get into

160
00:08:27,660 --> 00:08:32,640
the production side of things. I'm going to make movies that I came down here to make kind of thing.

161
00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:37,940
And that led me on my own, a whole other journey. That's sort of when I started the entrepreneurial,

162
00:08:38,420 --> 00:08:42,400
learning how money works, learning how business works, learning how to allocate resources and

163
00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:47,980
capital and talent. And films and filmmaking is hyper entrepreneurial. The people who are in this

164
00:08:47,980 --> 00:08:52,200
business, whether they know it or not, are basically all entrepreneurs. They're all experts

165
00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:57,440
in their own craft. Whenever you start a project, you coalesce all of these experts who are in their

166
00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:01,540
field around one idea around one thing. And when they're done, they all go, they all go to another

167
00:09:01,540 --> 00:09:05,720
project individually. Everybody's a master of their craft and all of those crafts come together

168
00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:11,160
to they coalesce to make something greater than the sum of its parts. So I kind of started to

169
00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:15,400
understand the business side of things a little bit more. And that helped explain a lot of what

170
00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:21,100
I had sensed was wrong and what was going wrong with the business. And then we can pause here,

171
00:09:21,100 --> 00:09:27,420
but then Bitcoin came along and I started to understand the dynamics that were at play

172
00:09:27,420 --> 00:09:32,500
globally and not just in my little filmmaking bubble. I started to understand why things were,

173
00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:36,540
you know, my sense at the time was like, things aren't working the way they should. Something is

174
00:09:36,540 --> 00:09:40,400
off. Something doesn't make sense. I don't know what it is. Things don't feel right. Bitcoin helped

175
00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:45,900
describe what was broken about everything and is one of the reasons I became super obsessed

176
00:09:45,900 --> 00:09:50,640
with the technology. So that led me to learning about the tech. And it was pretty clear to me

177
00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:54,880
after a couple of years of studying this, like this technology is going to solve problems that

178
00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:59,320
filmmakers have. We have a, we have a, we have a revenue issue. We have a distribution issue.

179
00:09:59,660 --> 00:10:03,520
We have all kinds of issues, but nobody was really building it the way that I thought it

180
00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:06,520
could be built. You had a lot of shit coins, pardon my French. You had a lot of people who

181
00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:20,108
are maybe not filmmakers maybe people who didn understand the art and the business of it or they understood one thing of it or they were just technologists trying to solve a problem And so you end up with a lot of you know weird ICOs and weird tech tokens that I think

182
00:10:20,108 --> 00:10:22,068
are not necessary, at least at the moment.

183
00:10:22,288 --> 00:10:25,848
And so when COVID hit, nobody was quite building the thing that I thought the way that I.

184
00:10:25,908 --> 00:10:30,268
And I think just to add to the very end, I think what you were actually building with

185
00:10:30,268 --> 00:10:33,928
IndieHub, probably we will cover it shortly, a little bit later.

186
00:10:33,948 --> 00:10:34,328
Of course.

187
00:10:34,788 --> 00:10:36,948
Netflix, Warner Bros. and stuff.

188
00:10:36,948 --> 00:10:41,568
the biggest topic but what i can say what you're building is like what i'm trying to say is very

189
00:10:41,568 --> 00:10:46,748
unique because you are building a completely the same as bitcoin is a different world to the current

190
00:10:46,748 --> 00:10:51,388
existing financial system the same indy hub is working on a completely different set of values

191
00:10:51,388 --> 00:10:56,248
this is how i see so with netflix or similar streaming platforms you have algorithms and you

192
00:10:56,248 --> 00:11:01,868
are trying to utilize and soak the energy of your audience and not necessary to connect them with

193
00:11:01,868 --> 00:11:06,348
the creators because that's not the point you just want to make them like in the matrix referring to

194
00:11:06,348 --> 00:11:11,088
a movie like they are plugged in and then you soak the energy and you also soak the energy from

195
00:11:11,088 --> 00:11:16,808
from the filmmakers from the content creators but what you are trying to also bring with indie hub

196
00:11:16,808 --> 00:11:22,328
is completely opposite you want to make them closer these two actually sides right so and this

197
00:11:22,328 --> 00:11:28,668
is a very very very unique thing and beautiful what a future thank god thank you yes yes yes well

198
00:11:28,668 --> 00:11:33,668
said yeah absolutely we're gonna cover a lot of that guys uh the structure or the idea that we're

199
00:11:33,668 --> 00:11:38,528
going to do today is that first we're talking about this because we want to provide you like a

200
00:11:38,528 --> 00:11:45,668
wide context about how the Hollywood system works right and then to understand properly the

201
00:11:45,668 --> 00:11:51,488
problem that is currently right now and then I think the most illustrative definition or example

202
00:11:51,488 --> 00:11:56,548
right now is the Netflix one and brother deal that is going on in Hollywood and of course the

203
00:11:56,548 --> 00:12:02,088
solution is Bitcoin and Indy Hub and we're going to discuss that but in order to understand that

204
00:12:02,088 --> 00:12:07,288
That's why we're providing this a little, this wide context, let's say, about what's going on.

205
00:12:07,588 --> 00:12:11,228
And actually, I want to double pause, to pause and double click on that.

206
00:12:11,468 --> 00:12:18,808
And because since you have explained everything that has been experienced, you have been experienced Hollywood up close.

207
00:12:18,948 --> 00:12:30,228
So if you can explain how the studio system works and why it's so now every single day is more centralized and how that shapes the stories that audiences in the cinema.

208
00:12:30,228 --> 00:12:31,088
Yeah, absolutely.

209
00:12:31,088 --> 00:12:39,268
So I kind of like my own personal story progressed to I was in my little bubble and then it sort of widened out and widened out and widened out.

210
00:12:39,348 --> 00:12:41,788
And Bitcoin helps me get, you know, quite wide.

211
00:12:42,028 --> 00:12:44,108
You know, we're on a ultra wide lens here.

212
00:12:44,308 --> 00:12:51,928
I don't think that any of this can be properly understood without having an understanding of how money works and how our financial system works.

213
00:12:52,108 --> 00:12:59,148
Because Hollywood is not isolated in its in its fiat nature.

214
00:12:59,148 --> 00:13:03,488
It's not isolated in the degradation of the quality of the product that it's producing.

215
00:13:03,828 --> 00:13:09,688
This is true across almost every industry that I can see and all of society, as far as I can tell.

216
00:13:09,928 --> 00:13:15,848
This is a rich get richer, a situation where you have massive disparity.

217
00:13:16,048 --> 00:13:17,388
The middle class is gone.

218
00:13:17,988 --> 00:13:20,828
You could analogize that to products as well.

219
00:13:21,008 --> 00:13:22,208
The food is lower quality.

220
00:13:22,408 --> 00:13:23,168
There's more of it.

221
00:13:23,248 --> 00:13:23,728
It's cheaper.

222
00:13:23,968 --> 00:13:27,608
The food that is of decent quality is astronomically more expensive.

223
00:13:27,608 --> 00:13:32,848
The only people who can afford it have a ton of money. So this, this dynamic, this fractal is

224
00:13:32,848 --> 00:13:37,988
playing out across society at large. And so I think to answer this question, you really have

225
00:13:37,988 --> 00:13:44,188
to ask yourself where the money actually comes from and how, how public markets work. And just

226
00:13:44,188 --> 00:13:49,168
to illustrate what's happened, I can kind of go back into the history of, of Hollywood over the

227
00:13:49,168 --> 00:13:53,408
last, maybe even since the, even since the post-World War II, the forties, fifties, sixties,

228
00:13:53,408 --> 00:13:59,068
If you go back and you do a little research and you can, this is readily, it's a very interesting deep dive.

229
00:13:59,268 --> 00:14:09,828
Basically what you'll discover, and again, I think this is true of every industry, is you see a massive consolidation of every industry into the hands of a few players.

230
00:14:10,108 --> 00:14:11,768
And Hollywood was exactly the same.

231
00:14:11,848 --> 00:14:13,628
It started out with privately owned studios.

232
00:14:13,968 --> 00:14:21,168
And over time, those got bought up and bought up and bought up and consolidated and consolidated into the hands of a few publicly traded companies.

233
00:14:21,168 --> 00:14:30,508
There were there were even in the 80s when things were going crazy in Japan and the Japanese had like money hand over fist and they were buying up skyscrapers all over the United States and American companies.

234
00:14:30,728 --> 00:14:31,968
It was a crazy time.

235
00:14:32,348 --> 00:14:40,268
There was a point where like a parking lot company, like a like a Japanese parking lot company had bought up one of the major Hollywood studios.

236
00:14:40,688 --> 00:14:41,828
What are we doing?

237
00:14:42,048 --> 00:14:44,168
And so the story is one of consolidation.

238
00:14:44,168 --> 00:14:49,508
When I moved to L.A., for example, if anybody has listened to this, has been to L.A., they've been to Universal Studios.

239
00:14:49,828 --> 00:14:50,968
It's in it's in Studio City.

240
00:14:50,968 --> 00:14:52,368
It's right over the hill from Hollywood.

241
00:14:52,608 --> 00:14:54,128
It's right off the 101 freeway.

242
00:14:54,288 --> 00:14:55,108
There's a tower.

243
00:14:55,228 --> 00:14:58,448
There's a big tower, which is the Universal office building.

244
00:14:58,768 --> 00:15:02,448
And it's right next to Universal Studios, the park and City Walk and that whole thing.

245
00:15:02,628 --> 00:15:05,808
And then next to all of that is the actual sound stages in the backlog.

246
00:15:06,148 --> 00:15:10,428
When I moved here, that tall skyscraper building, that building said Universal.

247
00:15:10,908 --> 00:15:14,628
And then after 2008, it said Comcast Universal.

248
00:15:15,008 --> 00:15:18,828
And now it says NBC Comcast Universal.

249
00:15:19,108 --> 00:15:19,828
It's on the building.

250
00:15:19,828 --> 00:15:23,548
Do they also expand the tower to have a space for adding more?

251
00:15:23,788 --> 00:15:25,008
They should consider, right?

252
00:15:26,048 --> 00:15:26,988
They just, they have to.

253
00:15:27,768 --> 00:15:31,728
Pretty soon it's going to be, you know.

254
00:15:31,848 --> 00:15:32,388
It's absurd.

255
00:15:32,528 --> 00:15:41,548
And you can look at that example is you just go Google, just get on an AI, go on Grok, go on whatever, and research the consolidation of the industry.

256
00:15:41,548 --> 00:15:49,348
And so the industry, especially since 2008, but this has been happening for decades, is consolidating into the hands of a few people.

257
00:15:49,348 --> 00:16:03,528
Now, what I will say, my pitch to the world is that what I'm trying to do with IndieHub is I am simply trying to fix the incentive system in this particular industry that is totally broken.

258
00:16:03,788 --> 00:16:09,688
Filmmaking is a very unique business, and it requires a particular kind of risk.

259
00:16:09,688 --> 00:16:21,508
You have to take a particular kind of risk if you're interested in telling stories and you're interested in advancing consciousness further, because artists live on the on the edge of order and chaos.

260
00:16:21,748 --> 00:16:29,748
They have to. Our job is to bring things in and reflect back to society and society can take that and process that idea.

261
00:16:30,028 --> 00:16:35,148
And is this true? Is this not true? Is this what we're doing? Can we do better? Yada, yada, yada.

262
00:16:35,148 --> 00:16:36,748
And it doesn't have to be so serious.

263
00:16:36,848 --> 00:16:37,528
It can just be entertainment.

264
00:16:37,648 --> 00:16:38,008
That's fine.

265
00:16:38,228 --> 00:16:40,808
But it requires a particular kind of risk.

266
00:16:41,208 --> 00:16:47,708
That's a very different business model than if I am making buggy whips or I am producing

267
00:16:47,708 --> 00:16:48,348
a car.

268
00:16:48,748 --> 00:16:54,288
If I'm producing a car, my goal is to reduce all of the variables to the fewest that I

269
00:16:54,288 --> 00:16:55,308
can muster.

270
00:16:55,448 --> 00:17:01,768
It's to reduce risk to the fullest extent that I can to produce the exact same product

271
00:17:01,768 --> 00:17:04,428
over and over and over and over and over again.

272
00:17:04,428 --> 00:17:08,788
That is not what filmmaking and art is at its core.

273
00:17:08,948 --> 00:17:10,008
What it shouldn't be.

274
00:17:10,328 --> 00:17:12,128
Not looking at a situation.

275
00:17:12,628 --> 00:17:13,728
It's what it's becoming.

276
00:17:13,968 --> 00:17:15,188
And we all sense this.

277
00:17:15,648 --> 00:17:16,408
Everyone knows.

278
00:17:16,508 --> 00:17:20,128
Everyone who's been alive longer than like 10 years is like, what is going on?

279
00:17:21,908 --> 00:17:25,328
Sequels over sequels, remakes over remakes.

280
00:17:25,428 --> 00:17:27,008
How do I come up with new ideas?

281
00:17:27,608 --> 00:17:30,628
Well, I go through the old catalog of what we've already done.

282
00:17:30,628 --> 00:17:33,808
And I think about how can we do that again?

283
00:17:34,428 --> 00:17:40,628
in the same way. I don't know why I don't get that satisfaction I used to. Remakes, sequels,

284
00:17:40,788 --> 00:17:47,048
prequels, sequels to prequels, prequels to sequels, remakes to remakes. Same story, same story.

285
00:17:47,448 --> 00:17:53,628
It's all trash. And the reason it's trash is because the incentive system is completely broken.

286
00:17:53,868 --> 00:18:01,628
Publicly traded, the CEO of a publicly traded company is an inappropriate risk-taking character

287
00:18:01,628 --> 00:18:05,368
in order to make great films and tell great stories.

288
00:18:05,748 --> 00:18:08,348
You need, you know, as much as people talk shit

289
00:18:08,348 --> 00:18:09,988
on the golden age of cinema

290
00:18:09,988 --> 00:18:12,508
and the egos of all the studio moguls and all that,

291
00:18:12,588 --> 00:18:14,788
and certainly that's not without merit.

292
00:18:14,988 --> 00:18:16,208
The critique is not without merit.

293
00:18:16,508 --> 00:18:19,128
But you need people with huge egos

294
00:18:19,128 --> 00:18:21,288
who are willing to put everything on the line

295
00:18:21,288 --> 00:18:23,908
in order to push consciousness forward

296
00:18:23,908 --> 00:18:24,988
with respect to storytelling.

297
00:18:25,248 --> 00:18:26,608
It's hyper-competitive.

298
00:18:26,788 --> 00:18:27,888
It's hyper-entrepreneurial.

299
00:18:28,128 --> 00:18:30,948
You need direct, you need the artists' egos involved

300
00:18:30,948 --> 00:18:34,028
because their whole life, their whole talent,

301
00:18:34,148 --> 00:18:37,268
their whole job has come down to producing these works of art.

302
00:18:37,568 --> 00:18:39,588
So you need them to be on board.

303
00:18:39,848 --> 00:18:41,748
You need a really good business person,

304
00:18:41,868 --> 00:18:43,908
i.e. the producer to be on board.

305
00:18:44,028 --> 00:18:46,288
Like chief entrepreneur is the producer.

306
00:18:46,688 --> 00:18:48,228
The director is chief artist.

307
00:18:48,568 --> 00:18:50,628
Those two have to work very well together

308
00:18:50,628 --> 00:18:52,248
and they have to have respect for one another.

309
00:18:52,448 --> 00:18:54,368
And you have to go out and you have to compete

310
00:18:54,368 --> 00:18:56,988
and you have to do it efficiently and quickly

311
00:18:56,988 --> 00:19:00,288
and magically and profitably because it is a business.

312
00:19:00,288 --> 00:19:03,608
it's okay to be profitable there's nothing wrong with that it just means you did something that

313
00:19:03,608 --> 00:19:07,508
people liked and you did it well enough that you can do it again without dying but what's happened

314
00:19:07,508 --> 00:19:11,548
is we now have the ceos of publicly traded companies who are making decisions about films

315
00:19:11,548 --> 00:19:16,648
and they have no incentive to take risk their their whole idea of the world is reduce risk

316
00:19:16,648 --> 00:19:22,228
as much as possible increase revenue as much as possible and furthermore you have because you now

317
00:19:22,228 --> 00:19:28,088
have let's say let's say you know hulu's owned by disney fx is owned by blah blah blah so now

318
00:19:28,088 --> 00:19:33,468
when you're making these products, you're making these films or TV shows, you have seven or eight

319
00:19:33,468 --> 00:19:38,688
people who are the chiefs of various companies who all sit around and make decisions about what the

320
00:19:38,688 --> 00:19:43,028
edit should be, about what the storyline should be. Oh, I don't like this line. I don't like this.

321
00:19:43,068 --> 00:19:46,708
So maybe do that. And they all just kind of sit around like they have to give themselves purpose.

322
00:19:47,208 --> 00:19:54,528
But that's not how you make a film. A film set correctly is a highly dictatorial military type

323
00:19:54,528 --> 00:19:58,408
operation. It doesn't seem like that on the outset because we're talking about a bunch of artists,

324
00:19:58,748 --> 00:20:04,328
but to get artists wrangled to do something productive, you have to be militaristic about

325
00:20:04,328 --> 00:20:08,188
it. And there's one person whose opinion matters, and that is the director. And if the director

326
00:20:08,188 --> 00:20:11,668
doesn't like it, tough shit for you. And if you don't do what the director asked you to do,

327
00:20:11,748 --> 00:20:16,428
you're fired because we don't have time for this shit. And that's for good reason. That is for good

328
00:20:16,428 --> 00:20:20,288
reason. I am as much of an artist as anybody, but when you're making a film, it's one person's

329
00:20:20,288 --> 00:20:24,368
vision and you have to have everybody rowing in the right direction. Now that doesn't say that the

330
00:20:24,368 --> 00:20:36,576
director is truly a dictator A great director is convincing genius level talent on every department to be rowing in the right direction And great directors are able to they directing

331
00:20:36,696 --> 00:20:41,296
they're not dictating, but the buck has to stop with somebody. So pause there, going back a little

332
00:20:41,296 --> 00:20:46,136
bit. The way that films used to get financed, talking to get back, I had to say all that to

333
00:20:46,136 --> 00:20:51,416
get back to your original question. The way that the studio, now it gets complicated, right? Because

334
00:20:51,416 --> 00:20:57,036
studios have had control and there's unions and there's a lot of politics vying for power and this

335
00:20:57,036 --> 00:21:01,676
and that. But I'm just breaking this down for brevity's sake. Back in the day when you used

336
00:21:01,676 --> 00:21:07,056
to go raise money for a movie and you used to try to pitch it to a studio, you would go get the best

337
00:21:07,056 --> 00:21:11,496
what's called above the line people that you can get. I'm going to go pitch this script to Brad Pitt.

338
00:21:11,796 --> 00:21:16,036
If I can get Brad Pitt to give me a letter of intent, I can use that letter of intent. Brad Pitt

339
00:21:16,036 --> 00:21:20,576
says he likes the script. I can go shop for money. I tell Brad Pitt, hey, I'll give you 10 points on

340
00:21:20,576 --> 00:21:26,576
the back end. You are now an equity stakeholder in this movie. Your name is on the line, which is the

341
00:21:26,576 --> 00:21:30,076
most important thing ever. If you're an artist, if you're Steven Spielberg, or if you're Aaron

342
00:21:30,076 --> 00:21:35,456
Shorkin, or if you're Brad Pitt, your name is your brand. That's who you are. So you would go find the

343
00:21:35,456 --> 00:21:39,896
best above the line talent, directors, actors, writers, cinematographers, sometimes producers,

344
00:21:39,896 --> 00:21:44,696
and you would say, I'm going to raise capital with these names. And I'm going to, because the

345
00:21:44,696 --> 00:21:49,356
names have leverage, I'm going to have to give them some equity. And so back in the day, you'd

346
00:21:49,356 --> 00:21:54,036
go raise money. X people would have equity. It was like a regular business. And you had writers

347
00:21:54,036 --> 00:22:00,016
and directors and actors who were very vested in the success of that project because the success

348
00:22:00,016 --> 00:22:03,836
of that project made them more money, not complicated, right? And so back in the day,

349
00:22:03,836 --> 00:22:08,356
it was a unit sales-based business. You made a movie, you distributed that movie,

350
00:22:08,736 --> 00:22:13,516
people went and bought tickets to that movie. And so the capital that started with the audience

351
00:22:13,516 --> 00:22:18,596
member flowed through. You bought a ticket to that movie, that money for that ticket was allocated

352
00:22:18,596 --> 00:22:23,176
to that movie and that group of people who made that movie. And that money was split up between

353
00:22:23,176 --> 00:22:27,496
the studio. They bought X rights. They bought X equity. It goes to Brad Pitt, Aaron Sorkin,

354
00:22:27,556 --> 00:22:33,156
whoever. And so the people who made the best movies that society resonated with made the most

355
00:22:33,156 --> 00:22:40,016
money and they got to continue to make movies. Nowadays, the way that the streaming model works

356
00:22:40,016 --> 00:22:45,616
is you pay Netflix 35 bucks, pretty much no matter what, the people who run Netflix,

357
00:22:45,616 --> 00:22:50,476
the handful of people at the top get to decide how to allocate that capital.

358
00:22:50,476 --> 00:22:53,516
So you don't really know where that money is going.

359
00:22:53,916 --> 00:22:56,736
They don't really, they don't tell you, they don't tell the filmmakers.

360
00:22:57,016 --> 00:22:58,536
The filmmakers no longer have equity.

361
00:22:58,976 --> 00:23:02,716
They don't have any incentive to do anything even remotely interesting.

362
00:23:03,136 --> 00:23:06,596
The whole structure from top to bottom is now broken.

363
00:23:06,716 --> 00:23:09,496
The incentive system has been totally destroyed.

364
00:23:10,356 --> 00:23:14,656
So literally you need to play safe and you need to play on a familiar ground

365
00:23:14,656 --> 00:23:16,516
because you have no other choice.

366
00:23:16,776 --> 00:23:18,336
Like there is the gatekeepers

367
00:23:18,336 --> 00:23:20,316
and you need to fit into the gate

368
00:23:20,316 --> 00:23:22,936
and then produce pretty quick, pretty cheap,

369
00:23:23,136 --> 00:23:25,176
as low risk as possible to get in.

370
00:23:25,456 --> 00:23:27,816
Yeah, and unfortunately cheap is now expensive

371
00:23:27,816 --> 00:23:30,656
because like everything where there's no competition,

372
00:23:31,156 --> 00:23:32,976
prices go up, quality goes down.

373
00:23:33,716 --> 00:23:35,296
So that's what's happening in film business, right?

374
00:23:35,336 --> 00:23:35,856
Prices go up.

375
00:23:35,856 --> 00:23:38,096
It costs an asinine amount of money

376
00:23:38,096 --> 00:23:39,456
to make these movies that are garbage

377
00:23:39,456 --> 00:23:41,476
that don't really make that much money back.

378
00:23:42,156 --> 00:23:44,276
And so all it is is just,

379
00:23:44,276 --> 00:23:52,256
We've gone from a relatively free market where the allocation of capital is decided by the market itself.

380
00:23:52,516 --> 00:23:53,256
That's the difference.

381
00:23:53,616 --> 00:23:59,576
Now, the allocation of capital is decided by the handful of people who run these companies, which is always going to never work.

382
00:24:00,016 --> 00:24:01,256
They're captured politically.

383
00:24:01,716 --> 00:24:02,956
They're captured economically.

384
00:24:03,436 --> 00:24:08,636
And nobody has the brain processing power to be like, yes, I get to decide what society likes today.

385
00:24:08,956 --> 00:24:10,876
That's not how it works.

386
00:24:11,336 --> 00:24:12,496
Fuck that, right?

387
00:24:12,496 --> 00:24:16,836
So anyway, I know that's a bit, but that's the rough overview.

388
00:24:17,496 --> 00:24:18,976
The incentive system is broken.

389
00:24:19,136 --> 00:24:23,156
If you are a big director nowadays and Netflix is doing a Netflix original,

390
00:24:23,576 --> 00:24:25,616
they just come at you with a stupid high number.

391
00:24:25,736 --> 00:24:27,576
They say, I'll give you $50 million, take it or leave it.

392
00:24:27,836 --> 00:24:29,576
You don't get any creative control.

393
00:24:29,936 --> 00:24:33,396
I mean, you're the director, but ultimately you're overridden at every possible corner

394
00:24:33,396 --> 00:24:34,836
when somebody doesn't like what you're doing.

395
00:24:35,336 --> 00:24:36,496
You're just a gun for hire.

396
00:24:36,596 --> 00:24:37,116
You're a mercenary.

397
00:24:37,416 --> 00:24:38,316
You don't get any equity.

398
00:24:38,536 --> 00:24:39,696
There are no points on the back end.

399
00:24:39,816 --> 00:24:40,976
There are no residuals.

400
00:24:40,976 --> 00:24:45,236
it's a one-time lump sum thing take it or leave it oh by the way we're not going to tell you how

401
00:24:45,236 --> 00:24:47,956
your movie did we're not going to give you any insight into it we're not going to tell you how

402
00:24:47,956 --> 00:24:50,216
many people watched it we're not gonna tell you how many people finished it we're not gonna tell

403
00:24:50,216 --> 00:24:55,716
how many people liked it it's a disaster so there you go that's the rough overview you can prod me

404
00:24:55,716 --> 00:25:00,456
from there okay slowly do you want to ask something otherwise we can do we have rough questions both

405
00:25:00,456 --> 00:25:04,796
from i don't know i'm like a little bit shocked not joking of course i'm actually triggered with

406
00:25:04,796 --> 00:25:09,436
many different questions because you know i i thought for a while that all these sequels all

407
00:25:09,436 --> 00:25:14,476
this rubbish junk actually when you mentioned that the broken money also broken food i kind of

408
00:25:14,476 --> 00:25:21,996
see the legacy media cinema industry as not fast food but junk food and very often when we talk

409
00:25:21,996 --> 00:25:26,996
about junk food and fast food is actually referring to the same one thing and originally they were

410
00:25:26,996 --> 00:25:32,796
two different right to get the food fast enough versus to get the crap now we have the fast movie

411
00:25:32,796 --> 00:25:37,836
industry that is also junk just feeding us as you nicely said like to um how you how you mentioned

412
00:25:37,836 --> 00:25:42,296
like something to do something with consciousness that was the original goal of movies with the

413
00:25:42,296 --> 00:25:47,816
human consciousness right uh but now it doesn't work like this it just makes you yeah addicted

414
00:25:47,816 --> 00:25:52,976
depressed or whatever so i thought for a while that it's actually playing safe that they are

415
00:25:52,976 --> 00:25:58,596
producing this junk kind of thing because at least the audience is familiar with the content and if

416
00:25:58,596 --> 00:26:03,696
you are also tired if you fight with money struggles and depression and this and that you

417
00:26:03,696 --> 00:26:08,476
know like in the hustle culture overlaid then it's easier to consume this kind of shallow junkie

418
00:26:08,476 --> 00:26:13,456
kind of movie than to watch a very ambitious movie so i thought it's also like playing safe

419
00:26:13,456 --> 00:26:19,156
from how you describe the industry operating it looks like they don't give a damn like they they

420
00:26:19,156 --> 00:26:24,536
don't care and that's the biggest probably problem trying to be a little bit on the positive side

421
00:26:24,536 --> 00:26:30,036
for the question so do you think is there any chance that maybe hollywood instead of being a

422
00:26:30,036 --> 00:26:36,596
brand and this gatekeeper where there's few actually few gatekeepers has a chance to embrace

423
00:26:36,596 --> 00:26:43,176
independent filmmakers somehow and become not a brand but how to say like maybe to become somehow

424
00:26:43,176 --> 00:26:49,216
decentralized that they will be forced by the audience to bring a little bit of niche and

425
00:26:49,216 --> 00:26:53,716
quality things is there any chance for that because currently hollywood yeah it's like

426
00:26:53,716 --> 00:26:58,536
the main thing is unknown i don't think that i don't in the current the way the current system

427
00:26:58,536 --> 00:27:04,156
structure works, I don't think that it's possible. But that is why I started working on IndieHub.

428
00:27:04,356 --> 00:27:10,156
There is no other, you cannot continue. The path that they're on is one of total destruction. It's

429
00:27:10,156 --> 00:27:15,716
cancer. There's no, you're not coming back from that. It's just math. It's just the way the system

430
00:27:15,716 --> 00:27:23,496
is designed. It's been corrupted. And for, you know, people, people ask me this question and I

431
00:27:23,496 --> 00:27:27,116
could be, look, everything I say, I'm willing to be wrong. I'm not correct on every little point.

432
00:27:27,116 --> 00:27:30,016
I'm happy to be adjusted and corrected in a minute.

433
00:27:30,116 --> 00:27:32,736
I don't want people to think that what I'm saying is the absolute gospel of everything.

434
00:27:32,936 --> 00:27:33,876
It's a perspective.

435
00:27:36,116 --> 00:27:40,656
I don't think that people say, well, why can't Netflix just do what you're doing?

436
00:27:41,076 --> 00:27:43,576
You're just going to get destroyed by Netflix.

437
00:27:44,016 --> 00:27:48,376
And my answer to that, my perspective on that is that they can't.

438
00:27:48,496 --> 00:27:52,396
Because that would be like Netflix saying, you go to a board meeting in Netflix and somebody,

439
00:27:52,616 --> 00:27:54,836
you know, whoever's in charge goes, so, hey, guys, I got this idea.

440
00:27:54,836 --> 00:27:57,076
I'm going to actually pay everybody.

441
00:27:57,416 --> 00:28:00,776
I'm going to allocate our revenue based on audiences' attention.

442
00:28:01,076 --> 00:28:02,896
I'm going to automate the payment system.

443
00:28:03,876 --> 00:28:11,216
Basically, what I'm going to do while this plane is flying is I'm going to reduce our revenue by like 70% and I'm going to fire 70% of the people in this room.

444
00:28:11,896 --> 00:28:13,516
Like they're not going to do that.

445
00:28:13,936 --> 00:28:14,616
They're just not.

446
00:28:15,476 --> 00:28:17,796
It's a completely different system.

447
00:28:17,796 --> 00:28:29,116
I think that Hollywood as an idea and as a locale that had the monopoly on storytelling is done.

448
00:28:29,276 --> 00:28:31,816
And I think that it is done because of technology.

449
00:28:31,996 --> 00:28:34,456
There was no other way that this could have happened.

450
00:28:34,636 --> 00:28:39,816
So you are referring to Hollywood also as location, that you needed all these studios and stuff.

451
00:28:39,816 --> 00:28:50,656
Now, in theory, you can have AI production studio in Korea, script writer, human or AI, I don't know, in the U.S. and somebody in the U.K. and somebody in the U.S.

452
00:28:50,656 --> 00:28:56,896
So this is what you're referring to, that Hollywood as a brand, as a location is done because of the destruction.

453
00:28:57,696 --> 00:29:06,196
We're sitting here having a three-part, fairly high-quality, more or less live recorded conversation, basically for free.

454
00:29:06,196 --> 00:29:11,996
15 years ago or 20 years ago this would have cost you like 30 million dollars

455
00:29:11,996 --> 00:29:20,256
you know it wasn't that long ago so okay for anybody for any of the the film technicians out

456
00:29:20,256 --> 00:29:24,916
there da vinci is a company that releases the suite of software you have da vinci you have

457
00:29:24,916 --> 00:29:29,716
resolve you have you know fair light a number they have a whole suite of basically what's called a

458
00:29:29,716 --> 00:29:35,076
non-linear editor system nle it wasn't and that's free you can download that for free and you can

459
00:29:35,076 --> 00:29:41,316
edit 4k you can edit uhd 3840 by 2160 for free if you want to go up to dci it's a little you know

460
00:29:41,316 --> 00:29:45,916
you gotta pay a little bit or whatever but you can do all this for free and it wasn't that long ago

461
00:29:45,916 --> 00:29:51,176
that to do color correction the way that da vinci got famous is they were they produced they had the

462
00:29:51,176 --> 00:29:55,576
world's best color correcting hardware to do color correction in a film and it wasn't that long ago

463
00:29:55,576 --> 00:30:01,036
that a da vinci was a physical device that was massive that rolled film through it that cost

464
00:30:01,036 --> 00:30:09,796
millions of dollars, just the console, cost millions of dollars to produce a film on film,

465
00:30:09,896 --> 00:30:14,476
on 35 millimeter film 20 years ago or 15 years ago, which is basically the end of film, by the way.

466
00:30:14,476 --> 00:30:21,456
But 20 years ago, it was incredibly expensive and it required an incredible amount of technical

467
00:30:21,456 --> 00:30:28,336
talent that all coalesced around studios in one area. There was a physical monopoly because of

468
00:30:28,336 --> 00:30:32,296
the hardware and the talent that was required to do this.

469
00:30:32,296 --> 00:30:35,296
This massive industry built up around filmmaking

470
00:30:35,296 --> 00:30:36,716
because it's so technical.

471
00:30:36,716 --> 00:30:38,176
Over the last 20 years,

472
00:30:38,176 --> 00:30:49,504
that moat has been eroded away by technology And it is astonishing the level of quality that we can get at the price that we can get it at And the internet moves the information around

473
00:30:49,864 --> 00:30:52,164
Back in the day, if you didn't know how to use Avid,

474
00:30:52,324 --> 00:30:54,464
you had to come to LA and take a class.

475
00:30:54,684 --> 00:30:57,544
There was no, you weren't like downloading videos.

476
00:30:57,824 --> 00:30:58,804
There wasn't YouTube.

477
00:30:59,924 --> 00:31:02,464
So anyone can tell a story.

478
00:31:02,584 --> 00:31:04,164
And we're seeing that happen.

479
00:31:04,164 --> 00:31:06,504
And the quality isn't the best.

480
00:31:06,864 --> 00:31:08,164
And this has been a 20-year transition

481
00:31:08,164 --> 00:31:09,024
and it's gonna continue.

482
00:31:09,064 --> 00:31:11,924
But my opinion is it's going to get better and better and better and better.

483
00:31:13,604 --> 00:31:14,944
Teams are going to form.

484
00:31:15,084 --> 00:31:20,944
They're going to be new studios that are going to be just small groups of human beings who are hell of good at what they do.

485
00:31:21,824 --> 00:31:23,244
And they're going to be able to do it for cheaper.

486
00:31:23,824 --> 00:31:26,424
The question is the mechanism of delivering.

487
00:31:26,804 --> 00:31:27,964
This is what I'm focused on.

488
00:31:28,304 --> 00:31:30,044
This is why I'm doing what I'm doing.

489
00:31:30,104 --> 00:31:35,104
Because if you go down there, if you think down this path long enough, you go, okay, well, what's the thing that matters?

490
00:31:35,104 --> 00:31:41,804
The thing that matters is how do you deliver the data and how do you ensure that there's still enough friction that filmmakers can get paid?

491
00:31:42,184 --> 00:31:50,444
The hardcore cypherpunks out there who are borderline leftists, when you get down to it, are like, well, information wants to be free and data is free and it's too easy to copy.

492
00:31:50,684 --> 00:31:52,044
And so blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

493
00:31:52,104 --> 00:31:58,604
OK, well, then I don't, you know, then software shouldn't have value and everyone's paying hundreds of billions of dollars for it like daily.

494
00:31:58,764 --> 00:32:02,104
But for there to be an industry, filmmakers have to get paid or there's no industry.

495
00:32:02,184 --> 00:32:02,864
It's as simple as that.

496
00:32:02,864 --> 00:32:05,624
And maybe we go into a world where there's no film anymore.

497
00:32:05,784 --> 00:32:06,664
I mean, it's possible, I guess.

498
00:32:06,744 --> 00:32:07,024
I don't know.

499
00:32:07,284 --> 00:32:08,324
I can't predict the future.

500
00:32:08,544 --> 00:32:13,204
But if there's going to be an industry that has to be enough friction that filmmakers can get paid,

501
00:32:13,444 --> 00:32:17,684
is it going to look like what it looks like right now where Disney has a bajillion dollars and they,

502
00:32:17,784 --> 00:32:21,464
hey, I'm going to sue you for copyright infringement and basically just destroy you?

503
00:32:21,724 --> 00:32:25,404
I'm not so sure that they're going to have the ability to do it that way anymore

504
00:32:25,404 --> 00:32:30,044
as data and Bitcoin changes the way that value and information moves around the world.

505
00:32:30,184 --> 00:32:31,524
It's going to be a never-ending fight.

506
00:32:31,524 --> 00:32:32,684
They're not going to go down.

507
00:32:32,684 --> 00:32:33,704
They're not going to lay down.

508
00:32:34,204 --> 00:32:39,324
But the leverage in the system has changed dramatically with the power of Bitcoin and

509
00:32:39,324 --> 00:32:39,644
the internet.

510
00:32:40,824 --> 00:32:43,664
So the question is, how do filmmakers get paid?

511
00:32:43,864 --> 00:32:45,004
How do they connect with their audience?

512
00:32:45,184 --> 00:32:48,384
These really aren't any different problems than, there's nothing new under the sun, right?

513
00:32:48,464 --> 00:32:49,684
We have the same problems we had before.

514
00:32:50,004 --> 00:32:50,544
How do you market?

515
00:32:51,004 --> 00:32:52,484
How do you connect with people who want to buy it?

516
00:32:52,664 --> 00:32:53,584
Can you make it well enough?

517
00:32:53,984 --> 00:32:58,824
Removing the way the studio system has, I say, what I really mean by that is that the

518
00:32:58,824 --> 00:33:03,704
publicly traded markets, which is how these studios get access to capital at nothing percent.

519
00:33:04,164 --> 00:33:08,964
That's the real mechanism that matters because that's how they outcompete everybody. And that's

520
00:33:08,964 --> 00:33:13,464
how they buy everybody. And that's how this consolidation has taken place. They can borrow

521
00:33:13,464 --> 00:33:21,644
money at 0%. I can't do that. Yeah. There is no real competition. No fair. Of course, fairness,

522
00:33:21,644 --> 00:33:26,544
when it comes to competing, never fully exists. But what I'm trying to say is like, if you have

523
00:33:26,544 --> 00:33:31,684
zero chances like with everything else currently happening in the world the small entrepreneur

524
00:33:31,684 --> 00:33:37,344
entrepreneurial kind of ideas are killed by amazon and others and the monopolies and

525
00:33:37,344 --> 00:33:42,224
technopolies are coming in so same story maybe before who and can i just ask one one question

526
00:33:42,224 --> 00:33:49,784
before of course yeah thanks um you know like we have amazon so the biggest let's say players the

527
00:33:49,784 --> 00:33:54,624
biggest gatekeepers not to call them one of so we have amazon they have netflix and we have so

528
00:33:54,624 --> 00:33:56,064
what Disney just to

529
00:33:56,064 --> 00:33:59,064
sure right so you have

530
00:33:59,064 --> 00:34:00,724
NBC Comcast Universal

531
00:34:00,724 --> 00:34:04,524
the greatest name ever

532
00:34:04,524 --> 00:34:09,024
if you are a streaming so

533
00:34:09,024 --> 00:34:09,944
like IndieHab is a

534
00:34:09,944 --> 00:34:10,744
streaming platform you

535
00:34:10,744 --> 00:34:12,804
are not production studio

536
00:34:12,804 --> 00:34:13,844
you are just a streaming

537
00:34:13,844 --> 00:34:14,864
platform I don't know how

538
00:34:14,864 --> 00:34:15,724
the future is going to

539
00:34:15,724 --> 00:34:16,984
look like for for your

540
00:34:16,984 --> 00:34:17,984
product for your project

541
00:34:17,984 --> 00:34:19,424
but currently you have

542
00:34:19,424 --> 00:34:20,784
one clear vision and then

543
00:34:20,784 --> 00:34:21,644
within the vision you have

544
00:34:21,644 --> 00:34:23,144
different goals as helping

545
00:34:23,144 --> 00:34:24,084
and reconnecting the

546
00:34:24,084 --> 00:34:27,084
creators and creators and the audience and so on, right?

547
00:34:27,424 --> 00:34:30,784
But when we are talking about Netflix, when we are talking about Amazon, when we are

548
00:34:30,784 --> 00:34:33,944
talking about Disney, the biggest players here, they are doing both.

549
00:34:34,164 --> 00:34:36,304
They are producing and then they are streaming.

550
00:34:36,584 --> 00:34:41,444
Is it possible that, for example, in the long term, what Netflix just did recently with

551
00:34:41,444 --> 00:34:47,064
Warner Bros and buying also HBO and also buying rights to some of the films that the Paramount

552
00:34:47,064 --> 00:34:47,384
had.

553
00:34:47,484 --> 00:34:51,444
So is it possible that they are trying to build like an octopus, you know, the network

554
00:34:51,444 --> 00:34:57,144
and then take all the production studios so that in the nearest future, they will skip producing on their own

555
00:34:57,144 --> 00:35:03,544
because they will own everyone else who is producing so that they can maybe expand on different features,

556
00:35:03,744 --> 00:35:10,004
streaming features, so that you are more tied into watching, more addicted, so that they will analyze more data.

557
00:35:10,004 --> 00:35:13,784
Maybe there will be more sophisticated algorithms, maybe whatever.

558
00:35:13,964 --> 00:35:19,424
Do you think that's possibly the reason or is it clearly the reason of destroy everyone else

559
00:35:19,424 --> 00:35:22,244
And then whatever happens, happens and we will continue with it.

560
00:35:22,604 --> 00:35:23,084
Okay.

561
00:35:23,204 --> 00:35:25,064
So first of all, wonderful observation.

562
00:35:25,224 --> 00:35:26,304
You absolutely correct.

563
00:35:26,344 --> 00:35:28,864
And you've absolutely nailed the key observation here.

564
00:35:28,904 --> 00:35:33,244
And I applaud you for recognizing it is that there's a difference between being a creative

565
00:35:33,244 --> 00:35:38,884
production studio that makes movies and being an infrastructure company that delivers the data.

566
00:35:38,984 --> 00:35:41,784
Those are totally different business models, right?

567
00:35:41,864 --> 00:35:43,364
Like completely different incentives.

568
00:35:43,604 --> 00:35:46,824
Like making a movie is hard enough, let alone like we're going to run the servers that

569
00:35:46,824 --> 00:35:47,744
distribute it as well.

570
00:35:47,744 --> 00:35:49,104
You know, like it's very difficult.

571
00:35:49,424 --> 00:35:52,284
And what they're doing technically is no small feat.

572
00:35:52,404 --> 00:35:55,444
I am of the opinion that given enough time,

573
00:35:55,484 --> 00:35:57,464
and I don't know what the timeframe is on this,

574
00:35:57,544 --> 00:35:58,484
but given enough time,

575
00:35:58,904 --> 00:36:01,304
businesses are going to be forced to choose

576
00:36:01,304 --> 00:36:02,944
what it is that they want to do.

577
00:36:03,224 --> 00:36:04,284
Are you delivering the data?

578
00:36:04,464 --> 00:36:05,584
Are you running the infrastructure?

579
00:36:05,884 --> 00:36:07,344
Or are you a creative?

580
00:36:07,744 --> 00:36:09,624
You're gonna have to pick a lane at some point.

581
00:36:10,884 --> 00:36:12,804
I, with IndieHub, I'm going to,

582
00:36:13,044 --> 00:36:14,764
I'm focusing on the infrastructure.

583
00:36:15,144 --> 00:36:15,984
Not because I want to.

584
00:36:16,104 --> 00:36:17,544
Honestly, I'd rather be making movies.

585
00:36:17,784 --> 00:36:19,384
It's just, that's what needs to be done.

586
00:36:19,424 --> 00:36:23,124
and if I can help build this and create this

587
00:36:23,124 --> 00:36:25,824
and that leads to the liberation of the industry

588
00:36:25,824 --> 00:36:27,164
or liberation of the art form

589
00:36:27,164 --> 00:36:29,624
and leads to even 100 decent movies getting made,

590
00:36:29,784 --> 00:36:31,844
then fine, I sacrifice myself for that.

591
00:36:31,964 --> 00:36:32,964
That's worth it in my opinion.

592
00:36:33,324 --> 00:36:34,584
So firstly, I think, yes,

593
00:36:34,764 --> 00:36:36,224
industries are gonna have to pick a lane.

594
00:36:36,424 --> 00:36:40,384
Now, my opinion on what has really massively changed

595
00:36:40,384 --> 00:36:42,124
over the last 25 or 30 years

596
00:36:42,124 --> 00:36:45,704
is that the media industry,

597
00:36:45,704 --> 00:36:48,904
that includes news, filmmaking, streaming,

598
00:36:48,904 --> 00:36:54,024
broadcasting in general. I am of the opinion that these are basically now propaganda wings of

599
00:36:54,024 --> 00:37:01,244
a more insidious institution that is with the explicit goal of basically mining us for our

600
00:37:01,244 --> 00:37:08,704
energy, for our money. They're parasites. So what do those entities like to do? They continue to

601
00:37:08,704 --> 00:37:13,704
further consolidate power until they self-destruct. They collapse. They can't help themselves. That's

602
00:37:13,704 --> 00:37:18,344
what they do. It's like cancer. It just continues reproducing until it kills the host.

603
00:37:18,344 --> 00:37:22,124
Will they collapse? I don't know. I don't know. This could be a long time.

604
00:37:23,104 --> 00:37:29,664
It's like we think that we're pretty far through the internet right now, but we're in the first inning of the internet.

605
00:37:29,944 --> 00:37:36,744
It's been like 30 years. That is nothing. This is absolutely nothing with respect to where we're going.

606
00:37:37,304 --> 00:37:42,004
So we're in the very early stages of this. Yes, I do think that they're going to continue to consolidate.

607
00:37:42,004 --> 00:37:46,944
I do think that they're going to continue to, they're basically dopamine dealers.

608
00:37:47,124 --> 00:37:49,904
They're drug dealers with a different delivery mechanism.

609
00:37:50,224 --> 00:37:51,284
Some people smoke crack.

610
00:37:51,484 --> 00:37:53,604
Other people scroll Instagram all day.

611
00:37:53,684 --> 00:37:56,764
As far as the brain is concerned, I'm not sure there's a huge difference.

612
00:37:57,004 --> 00:38:00,664
You know, when you're just boiling it down simply, it's more or less the same thing.

613
00:38:00,884 --> 00:38:03,824
So I think that we're going to have a bifurcation societally.

614
00:38:04,204 --> 00:38:06,884
This is up to humanity and always has been and always will be.

615
00:38:06,884 --> 00:38:12,544
What choices are you making as an individual about how you want to live your life and where you're directing and giving your energy?

616
00:38:12,864 --> 00:38:14,084
Do you want to go smoke crack?

617
00:38:14,404 --> 00:38:15,144
You can totally do that.

618
00:38:15,244 --> 00:38:17,064
You're absolutely like no one is stopping you.

619
00:38:17,424 --> 00:38:18,284
Certainly not in California.

620
00:38:21,264 --> 00:38:26,884
Or do you want to allocate your energy towards something that is more aligned with your highest, greatest good?

621
00:38:26,884 --> 00:38:39,104
I'm setting IndieHub up for people who recognize that distinction and who say, when I'm allocating my attention to this film or this filmmaker, I am literally streaming them value per second while I'm watching.

622
00:38:39,384 --> 00:38:40,444
There's nobody in between.

623
00:38:41,044 --> 00:38:42,184
You know, this is where we're going.

624
00:38:42,444 --> 00:38:44,404
That's not exactly how it's structured right now for technical reasons.

625
00:38:44,484 --> 00:38:48,404
But I'm trying to connect filmmaker and audience member as directly as I can.

626
00:38:48,584 --> 00:38:54,624
Back in the day when you were in a theater, you had an instant response from your audience on whether what you were doing was working.

627
00:38:54,624 --> 00:38:56,284
I mean, it's palpable.

628
00:38:56,284 --> 00:38:58,304
There's nothing like that, that back and forth.

629
00:38:58,684 --> 00:39:00,004
Okay, well, are we in the theater anymore?

630
00:39:00,124 --> 00:39:00,384
No.

631
00:39:00,604 --> 00:39:05,264
So how can we have a direct, how can we have the closest direct, most meaningful, energetic

632
00:39:05,264 --> 00:39:06,124
exchange?

633
00:39:06,464 --> 00:39:07,764
Well, it's money, basically.

634
00:39:08,104 --> 00:39:09,724
I mean, a like is free.

635
00:39:09,824 --> 00:39:11,324
A thumbs up doesn't mean anything.

636
00:39:11,464 --> 00:39:12,444
I can just press that.

637
00:39:12,684 --> 00:39:15,624
There has to be something that has weight and value to it.

638
00:39:15,644 --> 00:39:16,524
And that is money.

639
00:39:16,884 --> 00:39:21,184
And so if somebody streams the first 10 minutes of your movie and stops, like you're punished

640
00:39:21,184 --> 00:39:21,604
for it.

641
00:39:21,724 --> 00:39:23,004
Like make a better movie, man.

642
00:39:23,064 --> 00:39:23,824
I don't know what to tell you.

643
00:39:24,824 --> 00:39:26,264
Motivated in a way, not necessarily.

644
00:39:26,284 --> 00:39:52,284
Yeah, exactly. So, so I know I'm rambling, but it is going to continue down that line where these companies are going to continue to feed off of there's nothing that's free people like there's nothing that's free. Instagram is not free. Twitter is not free. None of this is free. In fact, you're, you're expending the most valuable thing that you have in your entire life, which is time. And you're giving that you're, you're giving them your time, like huge mistake, huge mistake. What are you doing? And I'm guilty of this. I'm totally guilty of this.

645
00:39:52,844 --> 00:39:55,304
So they're going to continue to harvest that as long as they can.

646
00:39:55,344 --> 00:39:55,904
They're not going to stop.

647
00:39:55,944 --> 00:39:56,524
Why would they stop?

648
00:39:56,584 --> 00:39:57,184
It makes them rich.

649
00:39:57,344 --> 00:39:58,404
They're definitely going to keep doing that.

650
00:39:58,584 --> 00:40:04,184
But we have the ability to fork off of that nonsense and to go build something that's more meaningful.

651
00:40:04,624 --> 00:40:08,304
You know, it's like America, the idea versus America, what it is right now.

652
00:40:08,304 --> 00:40:10,624
You can't kill the idea of America.

653
00:40:11,004 --> 00:40:16,964
They've captured it physically, but they can't kill the mind virus idea of what America is.

654
00:40:17,264 --> 00:40:20,704
And so we have to go continue to build that elsewhere.

655
00:40:20,704 --> 00:40:23,404
I guess what I'm trying to say is it's going to be both, right?

656
00:40:23,444 --> 00:40:24,004
We're in a fight.

657
00:40:24,324 --> 00:40:26,824
We're in a fight right now between the unconscious and the conscious.

658
00:40:27,084 --> 00:40:27,604
I say that.

659
00:40:27,784 --> 00:40:28,844
I'm not trying to be arrogant.

660
00:40:28,984 --> 00:40:30,544
I'm just saying like Matrix.

661
00:40:30,784 --> 00:40:31,204
You know what I mean?

662
00:40:31,224 --> 00:40:34,424
Like he wakes up and he looks around and all these people are in the pods and they're just like, derp.

663
00:40:34,584 --> 00:40:36,184
You know, that's what's happening right now.

664
00:40:36,704 --> 00:40:39,144
You know, there are people who are watching the Housewives of Beverly Hills.

665
00:40:39,484 --> 00:40:40,344
Like, what?

666
00:40:40,464 --> 00:40:41,184
What are you doing?

667
00:40:41,444 --> 00:40:42,084
What are we doing?

668
00:40:42,264 --> 00:40:44,784
So it really comes down to the individual, I guess, is what I'm saying.

669
00:40:44,844 --> 00:40:45,444
We get to choose.

670
00:40:45,644 --> 00:40:45,924
Very good.

671
00:40:50,704 --> 00:40:51,204
you