1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,000
The world in its current state with the broken money is really going to be difficult.

2
00:00:05,340 --> 00:00:08,400
And I don't want to be dystopian.

3
00:00:08,700 --> 00:00:10,800
I don't want to be all doom and gloom.

4
00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:22,920
But if Bitcoin doesn't succeed, I believe it's going to be extremely difficult for them and everybody in the world to be successful.

5
00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:32,180
The issue is not just the, I sort of call the first order effect, which is inflation and wealth disparity.

6
00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:47,500
But I believe most of the social problems of the world that are blamed on things like racism or ageism or prejudice or, you know, nepotism, corruption, all those sort of things are really the result of broken money.

7
00:00:52,920 --> 00:01:00,980
Hello, guys. Welcome once again to Bitcoin our podcast.

8
00:01:00,980 --> 00:01:12,740
Okay, so now we're back to a regular schedule after that two-part episode that we made with Bitcoin Film Fest about exposing Hollywood and why that system is broken.

9
00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:18,720
Of course, we managed to see why it's everything else connected to broken money.

10
00:01:18,940 --> 00:01:21,320
So I hope you have enjoyed that part two.

11
00:01:21,320 --> 00:01:26,940
and also on a regular episode that we continued last week with actually i won't say the name of

12
00:01:26,940 --> 00:01:32,520
the guest because bob don't want to know about this yet but i hope i just hope that you have

13
00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:37,940
enjoyed this episode hey i have exciting news i just want to say that the trinity is completed

14
00:01:37,940 --> 00:01:43,500
today for guys for you guys that don't know or you have seen the show you know that larry leppard

15
00:01:43,500 --> 00:01:49,420
had been here last year in the podcast we have talked a lot about his book the big prince we

16
00:01:49,420 --> 00:01:53,440
have learned a lot and i know we need to do a second part probably a third part because

17
00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:59,200
those are a lot of conversation but you also know that gary leland he is someone that is very

18
00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:04,620
frequent in the podcast we enjoy the podcast we talk a lot we have learned a lot with him he was

19
00:02:04,620 --> 00:02:12,920
the first person actually of the last season and yeah there's always to learn but uh i don't know

20
00:02:12,920 --> 00:02:20,120
you've heard that there's a very cool show that is called the bitcoin boomers actually i love that

21
00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:26,440
show so what i'm saying that the trinity is finally complete is because bob burnett is here

22
00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:33,820
so welcome to the show hello juan thank you thank you yes um the uh trio of boomers or the trinity

23
00:02:33,820 --> 00:02:38,260
of boomers i guess i like that that's the first time i've heard that the trinity of boomers

24
00:02:38,260 --> 00:02:42,720
maybe we should have named the show the trinity of boomers maybe that would have been a better name

25
00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:43,320
Take it.

26
00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:46,520
That would be fun.

27
00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:47,380
Well, nice to see you.

28
00:02:47,640 --> 00:02:50,760
Now, thank you for making this time and space to be here on the show.

29
00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:56,440
I know that you're an expert on mining, and I know that you have been in El Salvador, so we're going to discuss about that.

30
00:02:56,720 --> 00:03:04,180
But since I already talked about the show, I just want to know how the idea comes to make this good show between the three of you guys.

31
00:03:04,180 --> 00:03:31,640
Well, the three of us are friends. And, you know, at different conferences and things, we've somewhat gravitated to each other often because we're old, right? So you see the other guy in the room with gray hair, you go, hey, I'm going to go talk to him for a little while, right? And Larry and I happen to live fairly close to each other, too. And we both know Gary because Gary's show, BitBlock Boom, which is in April. We're doing this in March.

32
00:03:31,640 --> 00:03:35,500
I'm going to bring this show with you in March, but next month is Bitbop Boom.

33
00:03:35,700 --> 00:03:36,760
Larry and I both speaking there.

34
00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:40,520
Anyway, we realized a couple things.

35
00:03:40,700 --> 00:03:45,420
One, that our generation is underrepresented in Bitcoin,

36
00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:50,860
and we wanted to do what we could to be more accessible.

37
00:03:51,340 --> 00:03:54,460
Because right or wrong, sometimes people that are older

38
00:03:54,460 --> 00:03:58,600
don't pay as much attention when a younger person is talking to them.

39
00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:01,620
By the way, that's wrong, but it's just the truth, right?

40
00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:07,180
that that's what happens. And so that's one thing. The second thing is we think there's a great

41
00:04:07,180 --> 00:04:13,960
misconception about boomers by a lot of the younger generations too. So, and it happens to

42
00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:21,120
me even happened this weekend where people blame boomers for a lot of the problems of the world.

43
00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:27,320
They think that boomers are out of touch. There's all these negative connotations around boomers.

44
00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:31,380
And we want to change that a little bit to say, you know, that's wrong.

45
00:04:31,620 --> 00:04:35,480
It's certainly wrong to generalize, to say all boomers are this way.

46
00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:37,320
So that's why the show...

47
00:04:37,940 --> 00:04:38,600
That's cool.

48
00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:44,140
And what do you normally focus on the shows for the people that normally haven't seen it yet?

49
00:04:44,300 --> 00:04:53,900
Well, we're trying to not get too technical or to stay, you know, get down too deep into topics

50
00:04:53,900 --> 00:04:56,580
because we know a lot of the people are newer.

51
00:04:56,580 --> 00:05:07,140
we're focusing a lot on the economics of bitcoin on the geopolitical implications of bitcoin for

52
00:05:07,140 --> 00:05:13,240
instance the the last guest maybe you saw the show on is a friend of mine his name is john highbush

53
00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:21,220
and he he he's he has no association with bitcoin it's a new name probably for most people but he was

54
00:05:21,220 --> 00:05:26,740
the executive director of the Ronald Reagan Presidential Library.

55
00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:28,240
He worked in Reagan.

56
00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:31,500
That's the one that, sorry to interrupt, the one that dated Lady Di?

57
00:05:32,300 --> 00:05:34,160
He dated Lady Di.

58
00:05:34,840 --> 00:05:35,200
Yeah.

59
00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:36,340
Okay.

60
00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:41,780
And he had to, like, other interesting things in this episode.

61
00:05:42,220 --> 00:05:45,920
He was given the task, somebody, when Ronald Reagan,

62
00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:49,940
there was an assassination attempt, and he was hit by a bullet,

63
00:05:49,940 --> 00:05:52,200
and he had to go into emergency surgery.

64
00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:53,940
People weren't sure he was going to live.

65
00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:55,100
This is while he was president.

66
00:05:55,540 --> 00:05:59,120
And during that process, somebody stole some of his blood

67
00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:02,640
and they were trying to sell the blood on eBay.

68
00:06:03,140 --> 00:06:05,660
Like really a weird, weird story.

69
00:06:05,660 --> 00:06:10,660
And John was tasked by Nancy Reagan to stop the auction

70
00:06:10,660 --> 00:06:14,820
and go find the guy that had the blood and recover the blood.

71
00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:19,280
Like just, you know, so he has some fascinating stories, as you've said.

72
00:06:19,280 --> 00:06:28,600
You know, we're trying to not just all be Bitcoin, but also like we asked questions of John that I'll let people go listen to the episode before.

73
00:06:28,780 --> 00:06:32,800
But we said, what would Ronald Reagan have thought, for instance, of Bitcoin?

74
00:06:33,140 --> 00:06:35,920
I think those are really interesting questions that.

75
00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:37,000
Absolutely.

76
00:06:39,940 --> 00:06:44,820
It's hard to find an expert who could answer that question properly.

77
00:06:44,820 --> 00:06:49,560
So anyway, you know, we've had we've had Dr. Robert Murphy on as well.

78
00:06:49,780 --> 00:06:55,360
I think he, in my opinion, he's the preeminent Austrian living Austrian economist.

79
00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:57,780
And he's a he's a Bitcoiner.

80
00:06:58,220 --> 00:07:04,140
And we have we have other Austrian thought guys like Seyfedine Amos, who wrote the Bitcoin Standard.

81
00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:08,220
We have Stefan Levera. We have some people in the community who are Austrians.

82
00:07:08,460 --> 00:07:10,900
But and I respect those guys. No problem with them.

83
00:07:10,900 --> 00:07:15,120
But I think Bob lives and breathes Austrian economics all day long.

84
00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:22,220
And I think he's probably globally, even outside of Bitcoin, probably the most noteworthy Austrian guy.

85
00:07:22,580 --> 00:07:24,940
So those are the types of people that we have on our show.

86
00:07:25,020 --> 00:07:30,300
Probably a little different than just the same Bitcoiners talking about Bitcoin.

87
00:07:30,620 --> 00:07:32,240
You know, we're trying to be a little broader.

88
00:07:33,300 --> 00:07:33,740
Yeah.

89
00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:34,900
Actually, you know what?

90
00:07:34,980 --> 00:07:39,560
That's something that I'm trying to do, what I mentioned even in the beginning with Bitcoin Felfast.

91
00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:50,860
Because in the end, if you start digging into all the legacy system in every specific topic, you realize that all come to the broken money because it's everywhere, right?

92
00:07:51,240 --> 00:08:03,840
So now that since last year, this, well, now it is also happening again, the trial of Netflix and Warner Bros. and Paramount.

93
00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:08,780
So we dig into it, not just following the news, but also like why it's actually happening.

94
00:08:08,780 --> 00:08:12,420
why Hollywood actually came to this point right now, right?

95
00:08:12,540 --> 00:08:13,340
There's something deeper.

96
00:08:13,740 --> 00:08:16,560
So yeah, I think those things are, as you said,

97
00:08:16,620 --> 00:08:18,200
these are not Bitcoin related,

98
00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:20,800
but somehow it's related to the industry.

99
00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:21,900
Yeah.

100
00:08:22,140 --> 00:08:23,360
Well, yeah, it's true.

101
00:08:23,500 --> 00:08:25,980
You know, part of the reason I do what I do

102
00:08:25,980 --> 00:08:28,260
and that I've focused, you know,

103
00:08:28,300 --> 00:08:30,560
I'm going to be 62 shortly.

104
00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:33,680
And so some people say, why are you even working?

105
00:08:33,940 --> 00:08:35,120
Or why do you bother?

106
00:08:35,260 --> 00:08:36,820
Because I still work very hard.

107
00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:38,100
I spend a lot of time on it.

108
00:08:38,100 --> 00:08:53,660
And it's because I have children, I have grandchildren now, and I believe that the world, for instance, my grandchildren, as they grow up, the world in its current state with the broken money is really going to be difficult.

109
00:08:53,660 --> 00:08:57,060
And I don't want to be dystopian.

110
00:08:57,360 --> 00:08:59,480
I don't want to be all doom and gloom.

111
00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:11,600
But if Bitcoin doesn't succeed, I believe it's going to be extremely difficult for them and everybody in the world to be successful.

112
00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:20,840
The issue is not just the, I guess what I would call the first order effect, which is inflation and wealth disparity.

113
00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:36,200
But I believe most of the social problems of the world that are blamed on things like racism or ageism or prejudice or, you know, nepotism, corruption, all those sort of things are really the result of broken money.

114
00:09:36,540 --> 00:09:44,000
So if we if we fix money, it's very difficult for those other things to exist, at least to the extent that they exist.

115
00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:53,060
So the second and third and fourth order effects of fixing the money, I think, make the world a much, much better place.

116
00:09:53,380 --> 00:10:00,560
And so that's why I spend the time I spend and the energy I spend on Bitcoin because I think it's the greatest gift.

117
00:10:00,740 --> 00:10:03,420
It's the greatest thing I can give to my grandkids.

118
00:10:04,420 --> 00:10:06,280
So I feel like we have to win.

119
00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:18,120
And I think we have one chance, only one chance, because the establishment financial infrastructure and establishment power infrastructure, I'm talking political power of the world.

120
00:10:18,420 --> 00:10:20,320
I think they realized they made a mistake.

121
00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:23,020
They didn't take Bitcoin seriously.

122
00:10:23,020 --> 00:10:27,080
And it surprised them.

123
00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:34,140
And they didn't realize it's decentralized construction properly and that you couldn't just cut it off.

124
00:10:34,140 --> 00:10:36,660
Like they needed to kill it or much earlier.

125
00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:38,200
They let it get too big.

126
00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:44,940
But if the opportunity exists to kill it or to impair it, they will do it and they will

127
00:10:44,940 --> 00:10:48,000
never let something similar happen again.

128
00:10:48,940 --> 00:10:52,000
You know, well, they won't let it happen.

129
00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:56,880
And number two, I'm a very faith-based person.

130
00:10:57,240 --> 00:11:00,640
And I think that this was a gift from God.

131
00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:01,960
Bitcoin was a gift.

132
00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:12,940
It was like a gift for us, for the people, to fight against the evil of these other things.

133
00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:21,860
The conditions upon which Bitcoin emerged are very much like the immaculate conception.

134
00:11:22,340 --> 00:11:24,800
And I don't believe they can happen again.

135
00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:29,700
So we have to cherish the gift.

136
00:11:29,700 --> 00:11:36,720
We have to take seriously its care and security because it won't happen again.

137
00:11:37,420 --> 00:11:38,120
I completely agree.

138
00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:43,460
Yeah, I think there's a lot of misconception around Bitcoin, right?

139
00:11:43,620 --> 00:11:47,580
And in crypto, that's why I think you do what you do, I do what I do.

140
00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:52,020
And all Bitcoin institutions, the occasional ones, are doing what they do, right?

141
00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:55,560
Because I think that Bitcoin and crypto come from the same basket.

142
00:11:55,700 --> 00:11:57,720
They actually know it's fiat and crypto the same basket.

143
00:11:57,720 --> 00:11:59,780
And then Bitcoin is completely opposite.

144
00:12:00,260 --> 00:12:11,740
And it's fascinating that you say that it's like the immaculate conception, because that's something that I also want to explain to friends and someone that when they ask me, yeah, but Bitcoin is not crypto, I always say no.

145
00:12:11,900 --> 00:12:23,600
And I said also about the conditions, right, that everything since the beginning started without, let's say, like without the goal to make it as it is right now in terms of money.

146
00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:32,820
So that's what I say now everyone that wants to, because Bitcoin is open source, you can copy paste and try to do your very Bitcoin, but you won't.

147
00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:38,820
Since the inception, you cannot do that because you are doing it just to make a profit or just to make a company.

148
00:12:39,380 --> 00:12:42,440
But Bitcoin was without any of those incentives, right?

149
00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:44,460
It was just to make something beautiful.

150
00:12:44,740 --> 00:12:46,020
It didn't have any value.

151
00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:47,420
It was just $1 or less.

152
00:12:48,260 --> 00:12:48,700
Correct.

153
00:12:48,860 --> 00:12:50,260
The moment it is centralized.

154
00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:51,000
Yeah.

155
00:12:51,540 --> 00:12:51,780
Correct.

156
00:12:51,780 --> 00:12:52,860
And it has no leader.

157
00:12:52,860 --> 00:13:08,660
And Satoshi, whoever he or she, or even if it's a they, a group of people, the fact that they disappeared and didn't chase fame, didn't chase power, didn't chase wealth and left.

158
00:13:08,660 --> 00:13:14,480
to find i mean i if if it is the most fascinating aspect of bitcoin i'll put it that way the most

159
00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:19,940
fascinating aspect of bitcoin is that there is a person out there or maybe it's a group right but

160
00:13:19,940 --> 00:13:27,720
there's a person out there who has an ego that's small enough that is not selfish that's not greedy

161
00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:35,840
and is able to walk away for the betterment of the world and and the project because it's certainly

162
00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:43,740
you know satoshi had they i'll call him a he but but had he revealed himself bitcoin would have a

163
00:13:43,740 --> 00:13:51,060
leader if he revealed himself he would be famous on par with elon musk and steve jobs and these

164
00:13:51,060 --> 00:13:57,500
kind of people and he would wield power as a result of that that is immense because even if

165
00:13:57,500 --> 00:14:03,620
you look at like how much power and wealth let's say vitalik buterin has from the ethereum side

166
00:14:03,620 --> 00:14:10,320
And, you know, that's just an ugly stepchildren sort of version of Bitcoin, right?

167
00:14:10,740 --> 00:14:20,440
So imagine what Satoshi would be, how Satoshi would be perceived in that same situation.

168
00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:37,160
So I think, as I said, I think it's not reproducible, both because the powers and both the monetary side and the political side will squish any new one that looked like Bitcoin.

169
00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:44,420
And number two, the odds of getting somebody so selfless that creates it are almost impossible, too.

170
00:14:44,420 --> 00:15:14,240
Yeah. So in fact, my wife and I, we spend a lot of time. We talk about Bitcoin a lot, less than I want and more than she wants. We'll put it that way. But we spend a lot of time with that. And, you know, we pondered a lot, like, who was Satoshi? And what we pondered, not so much what was Satoshi's name, but how was Satoshi raised? What was Satoshi's mother like? Who was the woman that raised the man that was that way?

171
00:15:14,420 --> 00:15:20,380
It's very much like, I don't want to be religious here, but you wonder about Christ and you say,

172
00:15:20,500 --> 00:15:27,100
well, the reverence, certainly I'm a Catholic too, the reverence with which Catholics look at the Virgin Mary

173
00:15:27,100 --> 00:15:29,660
is the woman that raised Christ.

174
00:15:29,660 --> 00:15:42,720
And there's an amazing amount of respect that we have toward the Virgin Mary because she raised Christ.

175
00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:46,620
And so you say, you know, who was it that raised Satoshi?

176
00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:50,720
And we actually created a character called Mother Satoshi.

177
00:15:51,460 --> 00:15:51,740
Really?

178
00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:52,660
Yeah.

179
00:15:53,220 --> 00:15:54,240
Yeah, go ahead.

180
00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:55,540
Wow, this is really interesting.

181
00:15:55,900 --> 00:16:00,140
Yeah, so there's something called Bitcoin trading cards.

182
00:16:00,580 --> 00:16:02,360
I don't know if you're familiar with it, but they're trading cards.

183
00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:02,500
Yeah.

184
00:16:02,860 --> 00:16:11,140
And my wife, she's a fitness model, and so she modeled for a character called Mother Satoshi.

185
00:16:11,140 --> 00:16:15,240
And there's a card now in the Bitcoin trading card series called Mother Satoshi.

186
00:16:15,500 --> 00:16:25,480
And it's in honor of her, the woman that raised Satoshi, and paying homage to the work she did to raise this person that could be so selfless.

187
00:16:25,780 --> 00:16:26,100
Interesting.

188
00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:31,280
Well, actually, that's a question that probably people don't ask, right?

189
00:16:31,380 --> 00:16:32,560
Like, who raised Satoshi?

190
00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:33,800
That's a very good question.

191
00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:39,720
Because that comes from the values of their family and then what he learned through his career, right?

192
00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:41,780
and also to the knowledge of everything

193
00:16:41,780 --> 00:16:45,100
in terms of astreons or the way I see the world

194
00:16:45,100 --> 00:16:46,740
because that's also another thing

195
00:16:46,740 --> 00:16:48,460
that is very fascinating about Bitcoin

196
00:16:48,460 --> 00:16:49,820
that when you start learning

197
00:16:49,820 --> 00:16:52,140
and you dig into this deep rabbit hole,

198
00:16:52,220 --> 00:16:53,680
you open multiple rabbit holes

199
00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:56,580
and you question basically everything about your life.

200
00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:00,280
You need to be, I think, in some way,

201
00:17:00,340 --> 00:17:02,760
humble to break your previous knowledge.

202
00:17:03,020 --> 00:17:03,900
How is that in English?

203
00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:05,820
Like your belief system.

204
00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:06,820
Yeah.

205
00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:08,720
Yeah, absolutely.

206
00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:16,200
And actually I want to ask you now that we're talking about this, how do you come to Bitcoin to work in this space and also in mining?

207
00:17:16,580 --> 00:17:18,240
So we can pivot as well in mining.

208
00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:42,000
This allows you to be sovereign and essentially your own bank.

209
00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:46,120
When you take control of your Bitcoin, you can avoid the unnecessary risks of third-party.

210
00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:49,540
You can use your Bitcoin in custody of third-party exchanges,

211
00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:56,360
you can attack actors, governments or stafadores that only want to be able to get your money.

212
00:17:57,060 --> 00:18:00,240
The hardware of the hardware increases the security of your wallet

213
00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:05,780
because your private keys are in a specialized device that is not always connected to the internet.

214
00:18:05,780 --> 00:18:12,660
like I said before, maintaining your keys in a line can be exposed to additional factors

215
00:18:12,660 --> 00:18:18,240
of attack, so it is recommended to use a hardware wallet to store large amounts of bitcoin during

216
00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:24,380
long periods of time. Jade is a hardware hardware no custodial for bitcoin and liquid that

217
00:18:24,380 --> 00:18:30,740
offers simple firma and multiple firmas. I personally use it to store my bitcoin,

218
00:18:30,740 --> 00:18:34,880
ya que me siento mucho más seguro manteniendo mis bitcoins en una billetera fría

219
00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:38,040
que en una almacenada, por ejemplo, en mi teléfono.

220
00:18:38,580 --> 00:18:40,540
Si estás pensando en adquirir uno para ti,

221
00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:45,540
no olvides utilizar el código de descuento de nuestro show, BitCorner Podcast.

222
00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:48,200
De esta forma estarás apoyando directamente el show

223
00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:52,940
y además obtendrás un 10% de descuento para la compra de tu billetera fría.

224
00:19:00,740 --> 00:19:17,238
We be right back this podcast is brought to you by bull bitcoin the most trusted bitcoin only exchange built by

225
00:19:17,238 --> 00:19:23,358
bitcoiners or bitcoiners who give a damn about sovereignty not altcoins no custody just pure

226
00:19:23,358 --> 00:19:30,238
Bitcoin straight to your wallet. Get your own virtual event so banks can spy on your Bitcoin

227
00:19:30,238 --> 00:19:36,838
activity. Buy Bitcoin instantly or send bank transfer to Canada, Europe, Mexico and Argentina

228
00:19:36,838 --> 00:19:42,818
in a snap. For pennies, ditch the banks, screw the shady remittances apps. Head to

229
00:19:42,818 --> 00:19:48,938
boldbitcoin.com, use the code BITCORNERPODCAST and start stacking sats in the right way or send

230
00:19:48,938 --> 00:19:56,178
money home cheap and fast for bitcoin earn your money destroy fee so i'm an engineer by trade

231
00:19:56,178 --> 00:20:04,138
okay and going going way back to the late 1970s early 80s i started working with personal computers

232
00:20:04,138 --> 00:20:09,078
i got a degree in computer engineering and then i went to work in the personal computer industry

233
00:20:09,078 --> 00:20:16,018
and ultimately i was the chief technical officer for a company called gateway which if you're older

234
00:20:16,018 --> 00:20:21,118
and you were an adult in, let's say, the 90s or early 2000s,

235
00:20:21,558 --> 00:20:23,398
that brand would be familiar.

236
00:20:23,398 --> 00:20:26,258
One of the top 10 computer brands in the world.

237
00:20:26,878 --> 00:20:30,738
So I spent the first 25 years of my professional career

238
00:20:30,738 --> 00:20:33,098
really working in that industry.

239
00:20:33,718 --> 00:20:39,938
And I left in 2005, basically.

240
00:20:40,198 --> 00:20:41,258
I started working.

241
00:20:41,498 --> 00:20:44,638
I left Gateway and I left the industry and I started working.

242
00:20:44,638 --> 00:20:49,218
and I formed a firm that kind of acted as an incubator.

243
00:20:49,638 --> 00:20:52,678
We would fund small startups

244
00:20:52,678 --> 00:20:56,058
and help them kind of get started in the early days.

245
00:20:56,618 --> 00:20:56,678
Okay.

246
00:20:56,958 --> 00:20:59,158
So anyway, I did that for about 10 years.

247
00:20:59,358 --> 00:21:02,338
And then in 2017, one day I got a phone call

248
00:21:02,338 --> 00:21:05,518
and it was from an ex-Gateway person

249
00:21:05,518 --> 00:21:08,698
and they were trying to start an Ethereum mining farm.

250
00:21:09,078 --> 00:21:12,138
And I do want to say I am a Bitcoin maxi,

251
00:21:12,358 --> 00:21:13,518
but I didn't start that way.

252
00:21:14,118 --> 00:21:14,238
Okay.

253
00:21:14,238 --> 00:21:15,658
So I'll preface that.

254
00:21:16,778 --> 00:21:18,098
Me too, so don't worry.

255
00:21:18,578 --> 00:21:21,258
But I got a phone call from somebody saying,

256
00:21:21,498 --> 00:21:24,858
hey, Bob, I'm building an Ethereum mining farm.

257
00:21:24,998 --> 00:21:27,598
Back then, Ethereum was a proof-of-work base coin.

258
00:21:27,598 --> 00:21:34,898
And they wanted 800 servers, each with eight GPUs in them,

259
00:21:35,198 --> 00:21:36,518
NVIDIA GPUs in them.

260
00:21:36,618 --> 00:21:39,298
And they couldn't get, in that time frame,

261
00:21:39,378 --> 00:21:41,558
a professionally designed system,

262
00:21:41,758 --> 00:21:44,078
and they couldn't get access to the NVIDIA chips.

263
00:21:44,238 --> 00:21:50,998
Well, as a computer guy, me and some members of my team could design the systems.

264
00:21:51,698 --> 00:21:57,658
In fact, one of the key members of my team is a guy named Keith Thomas, who was the head of desktop engineering at Gateway.

265
00:21:58,118 --> 00:22:07,218
So together, we were able to design and have built these servers.

266
00:22:07,538 --> 00:22:11,998
And we had a really close relationship with NVIDIA going way back to our Gateway days, too.

267
00:22:12,058 --> 00:22:13,638
So we were able to get access to the chips.

268
00:22:13,638 --> 00:22:17,858
So we built those systems for this client.

269
00:22:18,078 --> 00:22:21,198
We sent them off and we did well financially as a result of it.

270
00:22:21,618 --> 00:22:28,678
And we started going to other people and saying, would you like to buy one of these two?

271
00:22:28,958 --> 00:22:31,118
Well, people started to say yes.

272
00:22:31,378 --> 00:22:36,598
Not big ones, like people would want three or 10 or two or like, it was that kind of

273
00:22:36,598 --> 00:22:36,838
thing.

274
00:22:37,098 --> 00:22:42,498
And they would say, well, I'd like to buy some, but I'll only buy them if you host them for

275
00:22:42,498 --> 00:22:42,718
me.

276
00:22:42,718 --> 00:22:50,818
So we were forced essentially as a way to sell more computers to also start hosting them for people.

277
00:22:51,218 --> 00:22:54,338
We saw that people were making a lot of money with them.

278
00:22:54,438 --> 00:22:59,378
So we started taking our profits and putting them into building units of our own.

279
00:22:59,498 --> 00:23:00,798
So we started mining for ourselves.

280
00:23:01,178 --> 00:23:06,578
So that all happened over the space of, let's say, six to nine months, somewhere in that time period.

281
00:23:06,738 --> 00:23:11,538
And then we started to look more seriously at what Ethereum really was.

282
00:23:11,538 --> 00:23:19,118
And while we were making money doing this, started to examine it and realize, well, it's really not decentralized.

283
00:23:19,618 --> 00:23:22,278
Vitalik decides.

284
00:23:22,838 --> 00:23:28,718
They announced with conviction in that time period they were going to move off of proof of work and go to proof of stake.

285
00:23:29,118 --> 00:23:33,538
Well, that doesn't sound very appealing because that's putting us out of business.

286
00:23:33,998 --> 00:23:38,458
That didn't happen for a couple of years, but they had announced the intention to do it.

287
00:23:38,458 --> 00:23:45,858
at that point we dug deeper into other coins especially bitcoin and realized well bitcoin

288
00:23:45,858 --> 00:23:51,578
really was decentralized and bitcoin really was committed to proof of work and while we didn't

289
00:23:51,578 --> 00:23:58,738
have the resources to design our own chip we were capable of hosting and mining for ourselves and so

290
00:23:58,738 --> 00:24:05,718
we changed our focus to that so you know it was over the period of 2017 we started in ethereum by

291
00:24:05,718 --> 00:24:11,338
the late part of that year, we were doing a little bit of Bitcoin. By 2019, we had pretty

292
00:24:11,338 --> 00:24:17,918
much pivoted the company to focus just on Bitcoin. And as you mentioned, I was going deeper and

293
00:24:17,918 --> 00:24:22,598
deeper down the rabbit hole. In addition to my technical degree, I have a degree in economics,

294
00:24:22,598 --> 00:24:29,178
and although it's obviously Keynesian stuff, but I had also started studying Austrian thought in

295
00:24:29,178 --> 00:24:37,558
about 2003. So I could see what both technically the brilliance of what Satoshi created, the

296
00:24:37,558 --> 00:24:44,358
difficulty adjustment, the having the issuance schedule, solving the Byzantine generals problem,

297
00:24:44,358 --> 00:24:52,478
all these sorts of things that are true brilliance technically. And then the Austrian things of

298
00:24:52,478 --> 00:24:58,138
fixed money supply of a true bear asset, true sound money, all those sort of things.

299
00:24:58,138 --> 00:25:04,298
and obviously the further I went the more impressed I was and so you know here we are today

300
00:25:04,298 --> 00:25:09,818
that's very impressive actually we have a very very similar background because I'm also I'm also

301
00:25:09,818 --> 00:25:15,518
engineer I'm an industrial engineer and also I started with cryptos but I started with uh I

302
00:25:15,518 --> 00:25:23,258
didn't remind not polka dot yeah oh polka dot sure yeah big mistake yeah and then well I start uh

303
00:25:23,258 --> 00:25:28,778
digging into Bitcoin actually in COVID because during the lockdown, we had a lot of time to do

304
00:25:28,778 --> 00:25:34,658
a lot of things. And I like economics, so that's why. And then I realized like, oops, okay, I'm not

305
00:25:34,658 --> 00:25:42,338
in the right path until I discovered Bitcoin. Yeah. So I also want to ask you about misconceptions

306
00:25:42,338 --> 00:25:48,218
now that we're talking about it. And I know you're in mining. So a lot of people think that mining

307
00:25:48,218 --> 00:25:50,218
is just about hashing power.

308
00:25:50,398 --> 00:25:51,998
But what are the biggest misconceptions

309
00:25:51,998 --> 00:25:54,218
that you see around mining,

310
00:25:54,358 --> 00:25:55,318
mining Bitcoin, of course?

311
00:25:55,478 --> 00:25:56,718
Oh, wow, there's a lot of them.

312
00:25:57,838 --> 00:25:59,678
Okay, so one,

313
00:25:59,918 --> 00:26:02,118
the job of Bitcoin mining

314
00:26:02,118 --> 00:26:04,258
is not to produce Bitcoin.

315
00:26:04,258 --> 00:26:06,098
It is to produce block space.

316
00:26:07,838 --> 00:26:08,718
And by the way,

317
00:26:08,718 --> 00:26:10,578
very few miners even know this,

318
00:26:10,758 --> 00:26:13,338
but our job is to produce blocks

319
00:26:13,338 --> 00:26:14,258
every 10 minutes,

320
00:26:14,818 --> 00:26:16,258
be part of that process,

321
00:26:16,258 --> 00:26:19,318
and get paid for producing the block.

322
00:26:19,438 --> 00:26:22,158
But our product is the block space.

323
00:26:22,158 --> 00:26:26,858
And it'll be easier to understand that 100 years from now

324
00:26:26,858 --> 00:26:28,818
when there is no subsidy.

325
00:26:29,418 --> 00:26:31,278
So because at that point,

326
00:26:31,278 --> 00:26:35,198
we're only getting paid for the block space, right?

327
00:26:35,378 --> 00:26:37,418
Now there's, and there's also a lot of ways

328
00:26:37,418 --> 00:26:38,538
to monetize Bitcoin.

329
00:26:38,698 --> 00:26:41,418
Maybe we have time to go into, to monetize block space.

330
00:26:41,598 --> 00:26:43,878
There's more than just one way to monetize it.

331
00:26:44,198 --> 00:26:45,258
So that's one thing.

332
00:26:45,258 --> 00:26:50,318
The second thing is there's a difference between a miner and a hasher.

333
00:26:51,818 --> 00:26:52,498
Okay.

334
00:26:52,778 --> 00:26:59,598
So a hasher and most of the people that call themselves a miner are not miners.

335
00:27:00,098 --> 00:27:00,178
Okay.

336
00:27:00,478 --> 00:27:02,958
Being a miner requires the following.

337
00:27:03,458 --> 00:27:04,978
You must run a node.

338
00:27:05,318 --> 00:27:07,038
You must manage your local mempool.

339
00:27:07,438 --> 00:27:09,158
You must create block templates.

340
00:27:09,518 --> 00:27:12,158
You must receive Coinbase transactions.

341
00:27:12,478 --> 00:27:13,618
And you must hash.

342
00:27:13,618 --> 00:27:16,958
Those are the five fundamental components.

343
00:27:17,478 --> 00:27:26,798
If you use a pool other than ocean or potentially demand pool, you use a pool, you only do one of those, which is hash.

344
00:27:26,998 --> 00:27:32,838
And the other responsibilities have been what I call abdicated to somebody else.

345
00:27:33,098 --> 00:27:39,878
You as a possessor of the hardware have given the power of creating the template.

346
00:27:39,878 --> 00:27:43,298
And by the creating the template means, let's dig that further.

347
00:27:43,618 --> 00:27:48,918
When you create the template, you pick the transactions that will go in your block.

348
00:27:50,398 --> 00:27:50,898
Okay.

349
00:27:51,398 --> 00:27:56,338
It's a very powerful, heavy responsibility because at one point in time, let's say there's

350
00:27:56,338 --> 00:27:59,318
100,000 transactions waiting to get confirmed.

351
00:27:59,798 --> 00:28:03,958
Well, you're going to fit three or 4,000 into the block that you create.

352
00:28:04,318 --> 00:28:07,778
So what is the criteria by which you're going to select those?

353
00:28:08,038 --> 00:28:08,938
Well, that's up to you.

354
00:28:08,938 --> 00:28:16,118
Or you can give it to Foundry or Annpool or F2pool or organization like that, and they will decide for you.

355
00:28:16,118 --> 00:28:31,438
You also, if there are protocol issues or protocol proposals within the community, there's one right now called BIP110, it is the miner who decides to signal or not.

356
00:28:31,438 --> 00:28:42,858
This is like SegWit or Taproot, which activated, where the power of essentially voting toward activation comes from the template creator.

357
00:28:42,858 --> 00:28:51,678
So if you are somebody who has hash rate and you're using Foundry, you don't have any choice in the matter.

358
00:28:51,978 --> 00:28:53,418
The Foundry is deciding, not you.

359
00:28:53,678 --> 00:28:59,538
So the term miner is typically misused in the community.

360
00:28:59,538 --> 00:29:05,358
I would say grossly misused because the miner for most people is the pool.

361
00:29:05,758 --> 00:29:12,038
For most blocks produced, the miner is the pool who is buying hash rate from other people.

362
00:29:12,418 --> 00:29:13,878
That's the way to look at it, right?

363
00:29:14,078 --> 00:29:16,778
So they're the ones connected to the network.

364
00:29:16,958 --> 00:29:19,098
They're the ones making protocol decisions.

365
00:29:19,338 --> 00:29:23,718
They're the ones making template decisions, transaction choices, those sorts of things.

366
00:29:23,958 --> 00:29:24,798
And it is.

367
00:29:25,318 --> 00:29:27,418
So that's a big, that's a biggie.

368
00:29:27,418 --> 00:29:34,978
Certainly there are. And so the two misconceptions I gave you to begin with are ones, I'd say, within the community.

369
00:29:35,478 --> 00:29:44,738
People within Bitcoin even don't understand that it is the job of the miner or the output of a miner, the production of a miner is block space.

370
00:29:44,918 --> 00:29:48,238
And two, the difference between a hasher and a miner.

371
00:29:48,238 --> 00:29:57,718
So obviously outside of Bitcoin, we still fight FUD, if you're uncertainty and doubt, about energy usage.

372
00:29:58,098 --> 00:30:04,118
Bitcoin uses too much energy, that it spews carbon into the atmosphere.

373
00:30:04,538 --> 00:30:16,718
Also that it is causing electrical prices for individuals who are close to Bitcoin mining operations or hashing operations to have increased electricity prices.

374
00:30:16,718 --> 00:30:18,458
Those are all false.

375
00:30:18,898 --> 00:30:25,218
You know, we do tremendous things to stabilize grids, although that gets oversold, honestly.

376
00:30:26,038 --> 00:30:28,378
Talk about that deeper if you wanted.

377
00:30:29,358 --> 00:30:29,658
Yes.

378
00:30:30,498 --> 00:30:35,118
We do a lot of things to utilize stranded energy sources.

379
00:30:35,418 --> 00:30:37,698
That's, by the way, what my company focuses on.

380
00:30:37,698 --> 00:30:48,058
We have natural gas wells that are not able to be connected to a pipeline, but we're able to use that gas directly at the wellhead.

381
00:30:48,058 --> 00:30:58,898
We have an anaerobic digestion facility where we take cow manure from a dairy farm and use it to generate methane, which we then power generators with.

382
00:30:59,018 --> 00:31:02,078
We have a hydroelectric facility that we own and operate.

383
00:31:02,078 --> 00:31:12,778
So these are examples of the mining community finding ways of using energy that would otherwise never be able to be used.

384
00:31:12,978 --> 00:31:24,678
And in some cases, like in the case of the cow manure and the natural gas wells, that methane would eventually leak into the atmosphere, but we convert it and burn it cleaner.

385
00:31:24,678 --> 00:31:33,618
I have seen that example, sorry, in, I think it's in Norway, in Norwegian, that they do it to a hospital or something like that.

386
00:31:33,718 --> 00:31:41,098
There is a village that they use the methane to mine Bitcoin and with the heat, they hit the hospital, something like that.

387
00:31:41,938 --> 00:31:51,438
Well, that's, yeah, they do some cool stuff there where, and you're mentioning kind of the secondary thing, which is we do have a byproduct, which is heat.

388
00:31:51,438 --> 00:31:54,658
And we're starting to learn how to use the heat.

389
00:31:55,058 --> 00:32:00,658
And they have in the Scandinavian countries, they, unlike certainly in the United States,

390
00:32:00,678 --> 00:32:05,678
and I think over most of Europe and Central and South America, they don't heat homes with

391
00:32:05,678 --> 00:32:06,798
individual units.

392
00:32:06,958 --> 00:32:09,218
They have what's called a central heating district.

393
00:32:09,578 --> 00:32:14,718
So you may have one city block and in the middle of it, you have a unit that produces

394
00:32:14,718 --> 00:32:18,058
the heat and pushes the heat into all the individual houses.

395
00:32:18,058 --> 00:32:21,618
So they're using Bitcoin mining to heat the houses.

396
00:32:21,918 --> 00:32:43,118
And there's also what's called a heat punk movement where people are using Bitcoin mining equipment to build things like, well, furnaces for homes and warehouses to do pool heaters, to melt snow on driveways, all these sorts of things.

397
00:32:43,118 --> 00:32:52,198
We actually have a small operation that we work in partnership with a greenhouse in northern Florida where they grow tropical flowers.

398
00:32:52,658 --> 00:33:01,078
And at night, often the temperature drops low enough that they need some external heat to keep the flowers healthy.

399
00:33:01,478 --> 00:33:06,118
And so we have Bitcoin mining equipment around the perimeter of the greenhouses.

400
00:33:06,998 --> 00:33:11,738
And it provides the heat and it also reduces the humidity inside the greenhouse.

401
00:33:11,738 --> 00:33:18,658
house. There's all these sorts of things that, yeah, they don't get much publicity, but fascinating

402
00:33:18,658 --> 00:33:27,118
things going on all over the world to utilize the mining infrastructure beyond just the, I think,

403
00:33:27,118 --> 00:33:32,658
what most people would perceive, which is, I think they just think about Bitcoin miners being greedy,

404
00:33:33,038 --> 00:33:39,398
pay me as much money as possible sort of folks, but it doesn't really work that way.

405
00:33:39,398 --> 00:33:40,198
That's interesting.

406
00:33:40,438 --> 00:33:52,398
And now even I'm just thinking about that Trump said, I think last year, right, that he also wants to compete in the mining industry to hash a lot there in the U.S.

407
00:33:52,398 --> 00:33:53,058
Who is that?

408
00:33:53,298 --> 00:33:54,378
I missed the...

409
00:33:54,378 --> 00:33:55,078
The Trump.

410
00:33:55,238 --> 00:33:55,718
Oh, Trump.

411
00:33:55,878 --> 00:33:56,138
I think.

412
00:33:56,478 --> 00:34:00,978
Well, yeah, they have a company called American Bitcoin that is mining now.

413
00:34:01,018 --> 00:34:01,798
So now they're mining.

414
00:34:02,138 --> 00:34:03,538
That's the one that run his son?

415
00:34:04,038 --> 00:34:06,158
One of his sons is running it, yeah.

416
00:34:06,158 --> 00:34:12,538
Yeah. I think it's Eric, if I remember right. But yeah, it's called American mining. So,

417
00:34:12,798 --> 00:34:18,878
you know, I think that one of the things that's happening though is, you didn't ask me, but I'll

418
00:34:18,878 --> 00:34:25,538
kind of comment on it, is we're starting to see a shift where, so the very, very large mining

419
00:34:25,538 --> 00:34:29,538
companies, and mine was probably, mine would probably be considered a medium-sized mining

420
00:34:29,538 --> 00:34:34,858
company. It's called Barefoot Mining. But the very large ones are, they've honestly been losing

421
00:34:34,858 --> 00:34:40,038
a lot of money. Pretty much if you look at all of them, they've lost a lot of money. They aren't

422
00:34:40,038 --> 00:34:46,678
typically very efficient operators. We're seeing a lot of them pivot toward AI. So they're taking

423
00:34:46,678 --> 00:34:53,938
the energy and redeploying it. And honestly, I think that's healthy for Bitcoin. I think that

424
00:34:53,938 --> 00:35:01,258
these companies typically aren't well operated. They lose a lot of money in Bitcoin. For instance,

425
00:35:01,258 --> 00:35:08,558
Marathon. Mara just announced their earnings a few days ago for the fourth quarter. And they

426
00:35:08,558 --> 00:35:16,538
had an operating loss of about $300 million. And so a very, very large operating loss. And

427
00:35:16,538 --> 00:35:22,718
they also announced in parallel that they were pivoting a lot of their future efforts toward AI

428
00:35:22,718 --> 00:35:28,838
instead. They weren't giving up on Bitcoin, but a lot of their energy going forward is in the AI

429
00:35:28,838 --> 00:35:34,198
area. And we've seen that with lots of the companies that traditionally have been called

430
00:35:34,198 --> 00:35:39,758
Bitcoin mining companies, which were really Bitcoin hashing companies, by the way. But

431
00:35:39,758 --> 00:35:45,818
they're pivoting. And in my opinion, it kind of is going to bail them out because most of them

432
00:35:45,818 --> 00:35:53,418
have lost a lot of money and they're not really prepared well to operate in bear markets. And

433
00:35:53,418 --> 00:35:57,918
we're in a bear market. Well, from the perspective of a miner, we're in a bear market right now.

434
00:35:57,918 --> 00:36:03,498
it's very difficult condition probably the most difficult conditions to be a miner in the history

435
00:36:03,498 --> 00:36:09,478
of bitcoin are right now very hard every single every single bear market until we mine all the

436
00:36:09,478 --> 00:36:14,238
bitcoin thing is going to be more difficult right that's why i think you said that there's a space

437
00:36:14,238 --> 00:36:18,918
to monetize the the block space because there will be a time that i think it's not affordable

438
00:36:18,918 --> 00:36:24,658
to do this or not well that's true and and i should expand on that a little bit too so one

439
00:36:24,658 --> 00:36:31,458
One of the things I think very few Bitcoiners have run the numbers on and have a grasp of

440
00:36:31,458 --> 00:36:34,178
is the scarcity of block space.

441
00:36:34,398 --> 00:36:35,778
So we can go through it real quickly.

442
00:36:36,418 --> 00:36:38,598
Oh yeah, plus this is interesting.

443
00:36:39,378 --> 00:36:44,338
As Bitcoin, I think most Bitcoiners know blocks are produced roughly every 10 minutes.

444
00:36:45,338 --> 00:36:50,478
So if you take that and you extrapolate that to a whole year, what you'll find is it's

445
00:36:50,478 --> 00:36:53,698
about 53,000 blocks are produced every year.

446
00:36:53,698 --> 00:36:56,738
Okay, 53,000 blocks a year.

447
00:36:56,938 --> 00:37:05,118
We have a block size limit of what's called 4 million weight units, but nobody reads it.

448
00:37:05,238 --> 00:37:07,838
It's about 4 megabytes is the maximum.

449
00:37:08,158 --> 00:37:11,158
Typically, it's about 1.5 to 2 megabytes.

450
00:37:11,478 --> 00:37:19,598
But what is pertinent for most people is it's about 4,000 transactions that fit inside that block, 4,000 transactions.

451
00:37:19,598 --> 00:37:28,838
So if you take 4,000 transactions per block times 53,000 blocks, you get just over 200 million transactions per year.

452
00:37:28,978 --> 00:37:32,098
That is the capacity of the Bitcoin network.

453
00:37:32,458 --> 00:37:44,738
And if, for instance, I was a miner, a real miner, as I defined earlier, and let's just say I had 1% of the world's hash rate, I would produce 1% of the world's blocks.

454
00:37:44,738 --> 00:37:51,058
and that means I would produce about 530 blocks per year or roughly 10 per week.

455
00:37:51,298 --> 00:38:06,936
So that as I said that is what I produce So the question then is let project ourselves even 10 or 15 years into the future Right now so today that block when I win it it worth about three and a quarter Bitcoin

456
00:38:07,116 --> 00:38:12,776
3.125 comes from the subsidy, which is the issuance of new Bitcoin into the system.

457
00:38:13,036 --> 00:38:18,256
And the rest, which is small today, about a tenth of a Bitcoin, maybe at best, is from the fees.

458
00:38:18,256 --> 00:38:23,856
If we go forward, let's say 10 years, we'll have had three halvings in 10 years.

459
00:38:23,976 --> 00:38:25,896
In the next 10 years, we'll have three halvings.

460
00:38:26,336 --> 00:38:41,716
So we'll go from 3.125 to 1.56 to 0.78 to about 0.38 or 0.39.

461
00:38:41,716 --> 00:38:48,636
So 10 years from today, the subsidy is going to be like 0.39 Bitcoin per block.

462
00:38:48,996 --> 00:38:55,596
So fees, fees, even if they don't change from today, will be 25% of the miner's revenue.

463
00:38:55,936 --> 00:39:02,956
But the historical norm, interestingly, is about 0.335 Bitcoin per block.

464
00:39:03,096 --> 00:39:06,196
That's the average fees over the history of Bitcoin.

465
00:39:06,196 --> 00:39:13,816
So that means 10 years from now, assuming that averages still occur, that half of the

466
00:39:13,816 --> 00:39:17,456
minor revenue will come from fees and half will come from the subsidy.

467
00:39:18,316 --> 00:39:21,876
So, and then you go four more years.

468
00:39:22,096 --> 00:39:28,256
Now, 75% of the minor revenue comes from fees and you go four more years and now we're at

469
00:39:28,256 --> 00:39:29,336
like 90%.

470
00:39:29,336 --> 00:39:30,176
Okay.

471
00:39:30,296 --> 00:39:33,236
So, so it, it goes down very, very rapidly.

472
00:39:33,236 --> 00:39:38,656
So at that point, a miner will look at it and say, well, fees are unpredictable.

473
00:39:39,076 --> 00:39:39,696
That's a problem.

474
00:39:39,776 --> 00:39:41,076
That's a problem, right?

475
00:39:41,456 --> 00:39:41,696
How?

476
00:39:41,936 --> 00:39:44,076
So hold that thought.

477
00:39:44,316 --> 00:39:47,876
Now, the second side of it, there are 8 billion people in the world.

478
00:39:48,176 --> 00:39:51,896
There are 400 million companies in the world.

479
00:39:52,136 --> 00:39:55,756
There are 220 countries in the world.

480
00:39:56,116 --> 00:39:59,156
There's only 200 million transactions a year.

481
00:39:59,496 --> 00:39:59,936
That's it.

482
00:39:59,936 --> 00:40:18,516
If you believe over the space of whatever period of time, but let's just say the next decade, Bitcoin continues to accelerate as a global asset that we have companies and people more and more operating on a Bitcoin standard.

483
00:40:18,796 --> 00:40:24,776
It doesn't take long for 200 million transactions a year to get Chuta.

484
00:40:24,776 --> 00:40:33,916
So if you are a company operating on a Bitcoin standard, one of the concerns for you will be, how do I get access to block space?

485
00:40:34,276 --> 00:40:35,156
I'll use an example.

486
00:40:35,276 --> 00:40:38,796
If you were an exchange, people are buying and selling Bitcoin.

487
00:40:39,216 --> 00:40:40,896
They're moving it into cold storage.

488
00:40:41,216 --> 00:40:46,136
They're moving it to your platform to sell it, like those sorts of things.

489
00:40:46,416 --> 00:40:50,336
Then access to block space is fundamental to your business.

490
00:40:50,336 --> 00:40:59,516
But you're going to need some certainty about when and how much it's going to cost for that transaction to occur.

491
00:40:59,776 --> 00:41:03,436
The way Bitcoin is currently structured, you don't know, right?

492
00:41:03,516 --> 00:41:06,856
There is no future marketplace for block space.

493
00:41:07,256 --> 00:41:08,096
You have no idea.

494
00:41:08,596 --> 00:41:10,876
But if you're, I'll use Coinbase as an example.

495
00:41:11,456 --> 00:41:14,036
Coinbase, you know, the biggest exchange in the world.

496
00:41:14,036 --> 00:41:20,376
Okay. So I'm guessing, might be wrong, but I'm guessing they do several thousand Bitcoin

497
00:41:20,376 --> 00:41:26,336
transactions a day. They or their users, right? So if they're sitting here today in March,

498
00:41:26,376 --> 00:41:33,316
how are they going to plan, let's say for next October? If they don't know what the cost structure

499
00:41:33,316 --> 00:41:38,616
is going to be, they don't know whether or not they're going to have access. Okay. So it's my

500
00:41:38,616 --> 00:41:45,736
prediction that they will do one of two things, three things, excuse me. The first is they may

501
00:41:45,736 --> 00:41:52,056
become a miner themselves. Why? Not because they want the Bitcoin. They want to be able to create

502
00:41:52,056 --> 00:41:58,756
blocks and decide to put their own transactions and the transactions of their customers into the

503
00:41:58,756 --> 00:42:05,576
blocks with a known cost. That's one. The second thing they might do is they may have contracts

504
00:42:05,576 --> 00:42:11,876
established with real miners where they pre-buy space. And let's say they come to Barefoot Mining

505
00:42:11,876 --> 00:42:16,196
and say, well, Barefoot, we know you're going to mine a certain number of blocks in the month of

506
00:42:16,196 --> 00:42:24,316
October. We want to buy two of them now, and we'll agree on a price now. That's the second thing.

507
00:42:24,316 --> 00:42:29,836
The third thing is, and this is actually something I've been working on for a couple of years,

508
00:42:29,836 --> 00:42:34,376
is a marketplace where a miner could, let's say barefoot,

509
00:42:34,476 --> 00:42:40,236
could go offer into the market right now a block in, let's say, the first week of October

510
00:42:40,236 --> 00:42:47,276
and pre-sell at a certain SATs for V-Bite to users of the market.

511
00:42:47,676 --> 00:42:53,836
Now, if you think about this, what I think you'll realize is that block space is a commodity.

512
00:42:54,376 --> 00:42:58,736
And so miners produce block space, which is a commodity.

513
00:42:59,136 --> 00:43:00,716
It's very much like a farmer.

514
00:43:01,036 --> 00:43:06,016
So a farmer sitting here, it's roughly the spring in a lot of places in the United States, right?

515
00:43:06,336 --> 00:43:09,596
So if I'm a farmer and I'm in Missouri right now,

516
00:43:09,716 --> 00:43:13,676
I might be plowing my fields and getting ready to plant corn.

517
00:43:13,976 --> 00:43:16,576
And I know that the corn harvest is going to be in October.

518
00:43:16,936 --> 00:43:18,576
So what will I do?

519
00:43:18,576 --> 00:43:24,836
Well, there may be on the other side, a company that makes tortillas, corn tortillas.

520
00:43:24,836 --> 00:43:30,416
And so they know that in October, they have to buy a certain amount of corn.

521
00:43:30,776 --> 00:43:37,376
Well, the farmer doesn't want to take the risk of just bringing all of his corn to market in October

522
00:43:37,376 --> 00:43:41,196
and saying, how much are people willing to pay for it then?

523
00:43:41,436 --> 00:43:47,176
The same as the tortilla manufacturer doesn't want to risk the price of corn

524
00:43:47,176 --> 00:43:49,056
and the availability of corn in October.

525
00:43:49,056 --> 00:44:03,936
So there are marketplaces where the corn producer, the farmer, can say, I'm going to offer a thousand bushels of corn at, let's say, $5 per bushel with delivery in October.

526
00:44:04,256 --> 00:44:10,436
And the corn, the tortilla manufacturer can say, yeah, I need 100 bushels of corn in October.

527
00:44:10,616 --> 00:44:12,176
$5 is a fair price.

528
00:44:12,416 --> 00:44:16,796
I'm going to buy them right now, even though the corn hasn't even been planted yet.

529
00:44:17,036 --> 00:44:17,336
Right.

530
00:44:17,336 --> 00:44:18,376
That arrangement.

531
00:44:18,376 --> 00:44:25,636
And the farmer maybe only bought, sold 20% of his expected output.

532
00:44:26,076 --> 00:44:31,396
And the corn, the tortilla guy may have only bought 20% of his expected need.

533
00:44:32,056 --> 00:44:38,376
And then in June, as we get closer, the farmer may see the price of corn.

534
00:44:38,896 --> 00:44:44,936
The futures market is showing $5.50 for October corn.

535
00:44:44,936 --> 00:44:51,016
I've already sold 20% at $5, but I'm going to offer another 20% at $5.50.

536
00:44:51,376 --> 00:44:55,196
And the tortilla guy goes, well, I'm seeing the price of corn go up.

537
00:44:55,476 --> 00:44:58,036
I don't want to risk it.

538
00:44:58,116 --> 00:44:59,856
I'll buy another 100 bushels.

539
00:45:00,076 --> 00:45:00,996
So you see where this goes.

540
00:45:01,376 --> 00:45:06,416
So what I'm saying is a miner is very much like a farmer or any commodity producer.

541
00:45:07,036 --> 00:45:08,856
It's just our product is block space.

542
00:45:09,136 --> 00:45:14,416
But what's unique about block space is there's no way to produce more.

543
00:45:14,416 --> 00:45:21,376
A farmer might say, I'm going to spend, looks like the October market is really good.

544
00:45:21,636 --> 00:45:24,996
I'm going to put extra fertilizer or extra pesticides.

545
00:45:25,256 --> 00:45:32,016
I'm going to try to increase my output by 10% by doing these expensive things.

546
00:45:33,336 --> 00:45:39,496
But there's nothing I can do because the blocks are coming every 10 minutes and I'm going to win.

547
00:45:39,616 --> 00:45:40,896
Let's say I have 1% of the hash.

548
00:45:40,936 --> 00:45:42,296
I'm going to win 1%.

549
00:45:42,296 --> 00:45:45,416
And so that's very, very unique.

550
00:45:45,596 --> 00:45:52,836
For those of you that are into economics, there's something called the Ricardo's theory of rent.

551
00:45:53,396 --> 00:45:58,156
David Ricardo was a famous economist in the late 1700s.

552
00:45:59,056 --> 00:46:04,016
And what he said was he studied the price of agricultural land.

553
00:46:04,016 --> 00:46:10,896
And he basically said there is a fixed supply of prime agricultural land in the world.

554
00:46:10,896 --> 00:46:13,836
And there's nothing that can be done to change that.

555
00:46:14,196 --> 00:46:22,276
And so as demand for agricultural land goes up, his theory was that the price of that land

556
00:46:22,276 --> 00:46:23,716
goes up exponentially.

557
00:46:24,356 --> 00:46:29,116
And block space, I believe, follows the Ricardo's theory of rent.

558
00:46:29,396 --> 00:46:31,076
It's a fixed supply.

559
00:46:31,416 --> 00:46:34,496
And to illustrate that, I have an example I give.

560
00:46:34,556 --> 00:46:38,296
I give some talks on this and I'll say, imagine, I mean, he's a farmer again.

561
00:46:38,296 --> 00:46:40,996
Imagine I'm a farmer and I have an apple tree.

562
00:46:41,376 --> 00:46:43,516
It's the only apple tree in the whole world though.

563
00:46:43,776 --> 00:46:46,016
And every day it produces a hundred apples.

564
00:46:46,396 --> 00:46:50,176
Now, if demand for apples is 99 per day

565
00:46:50,176 --> 00:46:52,356
and I have to throw one away every day,

566
00:46:52,696 --> 00:46:53,936
give it to the pigs, right?

567
00:46:54,336 --> 00:46:57,196
Well, the price of apples is pretty inexpensive.

568
00:46:57,856 --> 00:47:02,556
But the moment that 101 people want apples every day,

569
00:47:02,896 --> 00:47:04,996
the price of apples skyrockets

570
00:47:04,996 --> 00:47:08,216
because one person is left out every day.

571
00:47:08,296 --> 00:47:10,916
There's somebody that wants an apple every day that doesn't get one.

572
00:47:11,396 --> 00:47:18,556
So the change in demand is only two apples, but the resulting impact on the price is dramatic

573
00:47:18,556 --> 00:47:21,556
because the apple tree can only do 100 a day, right?

574
00:47:21,616 --> 00:47:26,676
So now imagine when 110 people want apples, 120 people want apples, and you can only do

575
00:47:26,676 --> 00:47:27,236
100 a day.

576
00:47:27,536 --> 00:47:28,736
That's block space.

577
00:47:29,076 --> 00:47:35,476
That's the power of a fixed supply against increasing demand.

578
00:47:35,696 --> 00:47:37,596
And it's skyrocketing.

579
00:47:37,596 --> 00:47:47,176
So I know I'm long-winded, but to get your head around thinking, the output of a miner, the purpose of a miner is to produce block space.

580
00:47:48,076 --> 00:47:51,196
And that's where the opportunity lies.

581
00:47:51,536 --> 00:47:56,396
Now, we need Bitcoin block space demand to exceed supply.

582
00:47:56,556 --> 00:47:59,796
That's fundamental to Bitcoin survival, by the way.

583
00:48:00,056 --> 00:48:02,556
We must see demand exceed supply.

584
00:48:02,956 --> 00:48:02,976
Yeah.

585
00:48:03,376 --> 00:48:04,276
Well, that's fascinating.

586
00:48:04,276 --> 00:48:10,276
Actually, I'm learning a lot about Bloxplay because I didn't listen or know much about this before.

587
00:48:10,476 --> 00:48:12,456
But it's a really interesting topic.

588
00:48:13,036 --> 00:48:15,096
And so, well, I have many questions.

589
00:48:15,436 --> 00:48:21,436
But before, because I think, yeah, before my questions, because we are reaching an hour,

590
00:48:21,696 --> 00:48:23,716
I told you that there's a game in the podcast.

591
00:48:23,896 --> 00:48:26,376
I think it's the right time to do this, to pause a little bit.

592
00:48:26,816 --> 00:48:27,536
All right, let's go.

593
00:48:27,656 --> 00:48:31,236
So as usual, guys, the audience already know about this game.

594
00:48:31,236 --> 00:48:39,276
So my previous guests have a question for my person, my guest, and you will have also the opportunity to make a question for my next guest.

595
00:48:39,276 --> 00:48:39,776
Yes, I got one already.

596
00:48:40,096 --> 00:48:40,316
Yeah.

597
00:48:40,516 --> 00:48:43,576
So my last guest was Alex Stansik.

598
00:48:44,076 --> 00:48:45,676
Oh, I know Alex as well.

599
00:48:45,876 --> 00:48:46,096
Yes.

600
00:48:46,396 --> 00:48:46,756
Good guy.

601
00:48:47,096 --> 00:48:47,376
Yeah.

602
00:48:47,596 --> 00:48:49,456
So he has a question for you.

603
00:48:49,456 --> 00:49:04,276
Do you think that institutional adoption, meaning corporations, companies like BlackRock, sovereign wealth funds, insurance companies, pension funds, and even governments,

604
00:49:04,276 --> 00:49:13,236
do you think that these kind of entities buying Bitcoin is a good thing or a bad thing?

605
00:49:13,236 --> 00:49:20,036
do you think it's necessary for greater adoption or do you think it's unnecessary?

606
00:49:20,576 --> 00:49:29,916
If you think it is unnecessary, then what is your timeframe for the next wave of early adoption?

607
00:49:30,136 --> 00:49:36,296
My answer would be that it is mandatory for Bitcoin to achieve its goals,

608
00:49:36,296 --> 00:49:40,836
that we can't expect Bitcoin to be the world's money,

609
00:49:41,216 --> 00:49:44,516
the base layer of the world's monetary system

610
00:49:44,516 --> 00:49:49,516
without financial institutions and governments and banks

611
00:49:49,516 --> 00:49:52,036
and all the people that I know Bitcoiners hate,

612
00:49:52,176 --> 00:49:55,656
all these entities that Bitcoiners historically hate.

613
00:49:55,656 --> 00:49:59,656
For Bitcoin to achieve its goal, they have to join in.

614
00:49:59,976 --> 00:50:02,736
Now, I view it as bending the knee, right?

615
00:50:02,736 --> 00:50:17,336
As they come in, it is them acknowledging that Bitcoin does have value, that it does solve real problems, and it is a direct threat to their power and wealth infrastructure.

616
00:50:17,916 --> 00:50:26,436
But it's them realizing that they have to join in because if they don't, it's existential to their existence.

617
00:50:26,436 --> 00:50:33,456
So while I know it makes people cringe, I think it is a sign of Bitcoin success as they come in.

618
00:50:33,596 --> 00:50:35,336
And there is no other way.

619
00:50:35,736 --> 00:50:39,816
So I think we have to kind of celebrate it and embrace it.

620
00:50:40,236 --> 00:50:46,976
But what we have to be on our toes for is what we talked about earlier, which is they would still rather kill it if they could.

621
00:50:46,976 --> 00:50:59,836
And so we have to make sure that we don't somehow put ourselves in a situation where power centralizes such that they can take control because they probably won't kill Bitcoin.

622
00:51:00,036 --> 00:51:04,836
In other words, Bitcoin won't die, but Bitcoin will lose all of its key attributes.

623
00:51:04,836 --> 00:51:30,416
Yeah, it's really interesting because even, I don't know, I have a, I get what you say, but I'm not more into this institutional adoption because for me, there's a lot of, there's a lot of debate on this, right? Because there are some even Bitcoin companies that they say they're Bitcoin companies, but in the end, they are not doing it. Or they say that they're Bitcoin companies just because they have a treasury. But for me, I don't know.

624
00:51:30,416 --> 00:51:35,856
I just think that in the end, companies, if they don't provide value, it won't make any sense.

625
00:51:35,936 --> 00:51:38,956
It's like a company having gold, let's say.

626
00:51:39,536 --> 00:51:42,156
But if you don't produce value, it doesn't matter what you have.

627
00:51:42,936 --> 00:51:53,056
Well, I guess the way I look at it is if it's not about them providing value to Bitcoin, but Bitcoin providing value to them.

628
00:51:54,016 --> 00:51:54,636
I got it.

629
00:51:54,636 --> 00:52:02,256
and so the one thing we can't do in bitcoin is choose who participates right i mean that that

630
00:52:02,256 --> 00:52:08,796
is that is the fiat system chooses who participates and who gains so there's this phrase bitcoin is

631
00:52:08,796 --> 00:52:15,916
for your enemies and i like that because uh whether it's russia or north korea participating

632
00:52:15,916 --> 00:52:23,016
in bitcoin like it's like it's like iran probably has roughly one to two percent of the world's

633
00:52:23,016 --> 00:52:32,016
hash power sits in Iran right now. And there's, so they're, they're probably already deciding

634
00:52:32,016 --> 00:52:38,776
certain transactions. It, it, it gives them a certain economic independence. One, they're

635
00:52:38,776 --> 00:52:44,116
generating Bitcoin, which is a hard currency they can use, but two, they now have the opportunity

636
00:52:44,116 --> 00:52:50,536
to do business. Even if the Western powers try to cripple them by not giving them access to the

637
00:52:50,536 --> 00:52:56,696
financial system, they have a way that they can sell oil and buy oranges and do whatever they have

638
00:52:56,696 --> 00:53:03,456
to do to do the business of their country. So I think it is, I've given a few talks on this,

639
00:53:03,516 --> 00:53:07,976
I'm going to give another one probably a bit, pop, boom on this, that it is the only path

640
00:53:07,976 --> 00:53:15,656
to guarantee the economic sovereignty of a nation. It's like, you know, you talk about El Salvador.

641
00:53:15,656 --> 00:53:29,136
Well, one of the things I think is brilliant about this with El Salvador is as a country that probably has to question whether or not it has strong allies in the West or certainly with the United States.

642
00:53:29,316 --> 00:53:30,456
I don't think it does.

643
00:53:30,796 --> 00:53:40,536
This gives them economic sovereignty, not only because they're building Bitcoin, but because they're making some investments in mining, which gives them this template control.

644
00:53:40,536 --> 00:53:49,516
And now, even in a world in which they're heavily sanctioned and heavily barricaded from this world's financial system, they can do business.

645
00:53:49,996 --> 00:53:53,156
And the citizens and the corporations of El Salvador can do business.

646
00:53:53,536 --> 00:54:03,216
And that's why I applaud what they're doing and its advice I've given to other countries of the world, whether I like those countries or not.

647
00:54:03,396 --> 00:54:08,896
And I don't think it's the role of a monetary network to be a police force.

648
00:54:08,896 --> 00:54:14,036
And I don't think it's appropriate for a monetary system to be used as a weapon.

649
00:54:14,256 --> 00:54:17,736
That's why I think there's nothing we can do to prevent it.

650
00:54:17,876 --> 00:54:20,296
And I think the value proposition is strong.

651
00:54:20,576 --> 00:54:28,916
And ultimately, I think in the long run, any country or large financial institution that doesn't participate is going to die.

652
00:54:29,136 --> 00:54:29,396
That's true.

653
00:54:29,836 --> 00:54:31,696
Because everything is reprised in the Bitcoin.

654
00:54:32,316 --> 00:54:32,616
Yes.

655
00:54:32,836 --> 00:54:33,236
Absolutely.

656
00:54:33,676 --> 00:54:35,076
You have been in El Salvador, right?

657
00:54:35,636 --> 00:54:36,916
I'd remind you that we talked about this.

658
00:54:36,916 --> 00:54:43,916
So if you can expand a little bit about your experience there, that will be really interesting to know from our listeners.

659
00:54:43,916 --> 00:54:56,916
So what was pretty neat about my El Salvador experiences was at the Bitcoin conference in Miami in 2021,

660
00:54:58,256 --> 00:54:58,676
or was it?

661
00:54:58,756 --> 00:55:08,916
Yeah, 2021, where the announcement from Bukele that it was going to become legal tender in the country,

662
00:55:08,916 --> 00:55:10,236
that was June of 2021.

663
00:55:10,236 --> 00:55:20,236
I had already had a little bit of a connection through Twitter with a gentleman by the name of Mardo Tochez.

664
00:55:20,736 --> 00:55:27,056
Mardo is, I think he's the chief counsel for El Salvador at the U.S. Embassy in Washington.

665
00:55:27,536 --> 00:55:29,856
And so I connected to him.

666
00:55:31,136 --> 00:55:39,436
And the day after, he wrote back to me and said, can you come to Washington immediately to meet with us?

667
00:55:39,436 --> 00:55:40,576
And I said, sure.

668
00:55:40,796 --> 00:55:43,416
So I went to Washington.

669
00:55:43,876 --> 00:55:50,376
I'm pretty sure I was the first person from the Bitcoin community in the El Salvadorian embassy in Washington.

670
00:55:50,376 --> 00:55:52,496
And I spent the day and I met with.

671
00:55:52,516 --> 00:55:53,296
That's really interesting.

672
00:55:53,956 --> 00:55:56,716
Mardo, Ambassador Mayorga.

673
00:55:57,016 --> 00:56:04,416
And I talked to them about Bitcoin because they, at that point, really didn't know much about it.

674
00:56:04,416 --> 00:56:08,536
It was kind of a surprise even to them about what happened, you know.

675
00:56:08,536 --> 00:56:09,416
For all of us.

676
00:56:09,836 --> 00:56:11,016
For everybody, right?

677
00:56:11,216 --> 00:56:13,236
And so, you know, what is Bitcoin?

678
00:56:13,436 --> 00:56:14,296
How does it work?

679
00:56:14,716 --> 00:56:17,156
What are the ramifications for our country?

680
00:56:17,596 --> 00:56:22,596
And then shortly after that, they invited my wife and I to El Salvador.

681
00:56:23,096 --> 00:56:24,836
And we went there for about 10 days.

682
00:56:24,956 --> 00:56:26,536
They were having a conference.

683
00:56:27,076 --> 00:56:28,136
So I went to the conference.

684
00:56:28,136 --> 00:56:32,456
I met with a lot of people, talked a lot about mining with different officials.

685
00:56:32,456 --> 00:56:37,236
And then I was invited back again as a guest of the government.

686
00:56:37,236 --> 00:56:44,556
I further met with, I forgot the gentleman's name, he's the head of the Department of Energy.

687
00:56:44,556 --> 00:56:50,476
We were exploring different mining opportunities within the country.

688
00:56:50,476 --> 00:57:04,994
Spent time with Mr Tochez He introduced me to a lot of people And I you know it was mainly of course I did all the things that most people do I went to my beach and I you know uh you know and enjoyed enjoyed the city

689
00:57:05,354 --> 00:57:10,114
Um, this was still, you know, COVID was still, um, kind of active.

690
00:57:10,114 --> 00:57:14,194
It was not as probably free and open as it is today.

691
00:57:14,194 --> 00:57:19,274
I haven't been back for a couple of years, but you know, what I saw was, so my trips

692
00:57:19,274 --> 00:57:27,134
were in 2021 and 2022. And, you know, what I saw was a country on the rise. In my life, I've spent

693
00:57:27,134 --> 00:57:32,574
a lot of time traveling. And back in the early 90s, I started going to Taiwan, for instance.

694
00:57:33,094 --> 00:57:41,674
And Taiwan at the time, say the 1993 or somewhere in that era, was honestly a third world country.

695
00:57:41,674 --> 00:57:50,234
but you could see there were elements of change and it's very difficult by the way for a country

696
00:57:50,234 --> 00:57:57,334
to rise from the second and third world and and go up it seems like it's a lot easier for them to

697
00:57:57,334 --> 00:58:01,454
go down like what happened in venezuela for instance like it's much easier for a country

698
00:58:01,454 --> 00:58:07,874
to disintegrate and that's almost entropy right so we're engineers right so what what is entropy

699
00:58:07,874 --> 00:58:11,754
is the natural tendency toward disorder, right?

700
00:58:11,794 --> 00:58:13,714
And I think that that's what happens

701
00:58:13,714 --> 00:58:15,554
in societies and governments, right?

702
00:58:15,554 --> 00:58:17,414
There's a natural tendency toward disorder.

703
00:58:17,814 --> 00:58:19,554
So El Salvador was attempting something

704
00:58:19,554 --> 00:58:23,134
to reverse entropy, and that's hard.

705
00:58:23,514 --> 00:58:24,854
That's a difficult thing to do.

706
00:58:25,094 --> 00:58:25,754
But you know what?

707
00:58:25,814 --> 00:58:27,394
It's happened a couple times in history.

708
00:58:27,394 --> 00:58:28,474
Singapore did it.

709
00:58:29,694 --> 00:58:31,314
Taiwan did it.

710
00:58:31,594 --> 00:58:34,034
And I could see when I was going there

711
00:58:34,034 --> 00:58:36,854
in the early 90s

712
00:58:36,854 --> 00:58:43,494
that they were starting to reverse the trend. And I saw that in El Salvador. I saw not only,

713
00:58:43,614 --> 00:58:48,234
I saw the will of the government, but I also saw a will of the people and a will of the business,

714
00:58:48,374 --> 00:58:53,534
the will of the business people. And I don't need to tell you, probably people listening,

715
00:58:54,054 --> 00:59:01,054
but it's phenomenal. I'm so happy for that to have happened. I was, you know, really honored to

716
00:59:01,054 --> 00:59:06,554
have been able to be there as this thing was starting. And, you know, hopefully something

717
00:59:06,554 --> 00:59:11,494
I said or did helped somewhere along the line that doesn't really matter. But like, I'm just

718
00:59:11,494 --> 00:59:15,714
so happy to see that because the world needs that. And I told you earlier, my wife's from the

719
00:59:15,714 --> 00:59:20,914
Philippines and the Philippines is a country, it's like 110 million people and they haven't

720
00:59:20,914 --> 00:59:31,054
been able to do it. They have not been able to lift themselves out of this spiral. The entropy

721
00:59:31,054 --> 00:59:37,814
is increasing. And, you know, God bless El Salvador, because I think it's important,

722
00:59:38,074 --> 00:59:44,014
not just for the 6 million or so people who are El Salvadorians living there, but it's important

723
00:59:44,014 --> 00:59:49,634
for the world and especially for that region of the world. And I think now it gives hope to the

724
00:59:49,634 --> 00:59:57,754
people in Venezuela and Honduras and surrounding countries that they can reverse it too. So I hope

725
00:59:57,754 --> 01:00:02,414
It's a virus. There's an El Salvadorian virus that spreads through the region.

726
01:00:02,974 --> 01:00:06,334
And I think, by the way, I think Bitcoin plays a role in that.

727
01:00:07,094 --> 01:00:10,854
Obviously, most of the credit goes to the people of El Salvador and the leadership of El Salvador.

728
01:00:11,154 --> 01:00:15,294
But Bitcoin is part of that because Bitcoin gives you this mentality.

729
01:00:15,634 --> 01:00:22,254
Like you put in the work, you adhere to the values and the rules, and good things happen.

730
01:00:22,454 --> 01:00:23,834
You know, that's what I see about El Salvador.

731
01:00:23,834 --> 01:00:39,374
Yeah, absolutely. And thank you for your kind word for the country. But it's true. I think Bitcoin has also shaped the way that Bukele is leading the nation because he's thinking like long term preference, right?

732
01:00:39,374 --> 01:00:40,374
Yeah.

733
01:00:40,374 --> 01:00:48,174
So, and I think that's the way that I have seen it even in front of people that are doing

734
01:00:48,174 --> 01:00:54,694
educational efforts to like NodeNation that he focused on GITs or even Bitcoin Berlin,

735
01:00:54,694 --> 01:00:59,074
that they managed to replicate what they did in El Sante.

736
01:00:59,074 --> 01:01:02,874
They have this Bitcoin circular economy fully integrated.

737
01:01:02,874 --> 01:01:07,474
So, but I think the challenge and I think it's going to work and pay off is that they're

738
01:01:07,474 --> 01:01:14,214
focusing on kids and they're teaching them Austrian economics because they are learning

739
01:01:14,214 --> 01:01:17,434
about Bitcoin and also they're learning about AI.

740
01:01:17,854 --> 01:01:22,414
So in the end, these kids will have in their curriculum all the things that they need currently

741
01:01:22,414 --> 01:01:23,454
and in the future.

742
01:01:23,834 --> 01:01:29,174
And also they will have a choice with, I think that's for me, as I see, that's the missing

743
01:01:29,174 --> 01:01:34,094
thing probably in the entire world that, as you said, when you studied engineering and

744
01:01:34,094 --> 01:01:37,014
economics, we'll learn about Keynesian, but we don't learn about Austrian.

745
01:01:37,014 --> 01:01:41,634
Some people even don't know, people don't know that there are several types of economy, right?

746
01:01:41,714 --> 01:01:46,654
So I think there will be advantageous because first, the mentality hopefully will change to Austrian.

747
01:01:46,954 --> 01:01:50,954
And second, if not, at least they will learn that there are several choices.

748
01:01:51,094 --> 01:01:51,654
There are two choices.

749
01:01:51,894 --> 01:01:56,114
You can go to Keynesian, you can go to Austrians, and you will see where you want to go.

750
01:01:56,174 --> 01:01:59,114
Because that's also the beauty of Bitcoin, that is volunteer, right?

751
01:01:59,314 --> 01:02:01,654
There's nobody imposing you how to use it.

752
01:02:01,834 --> 01:02:03,974
If you come to it, you can use Bitcoin.

753
01:02:03,974 --> 01:02:06,834
Even as you said, Iran right now, they're mining Bitcoin.

754
01:02:06,994 --> 01:02:09,534
They can use Bitcoin if we are currently at work.

755
01:02:10,274 --> 01:02:10,634
Yes.

756
01:02:12,294 --> 01:02:13,394
So yeah, it's fascinating.

757
01:02:13,694 --> 01:02:16,014
But we're going to start wrapping up because I know we don't have much time.

758
01:02:18,214 --> 01:02:21,554
Yeah, I just want to make you some more questions probably.

759
01:02:21,894 --> 01:02:24,454
And I would love to have a second part because this is so fascinating.

760
01:02:24,934 --> 01:02:26,434
In my mind, there's a big rabbit hole.

761
01:02:26,434 --> 01:02:26,894
Yeah, we can do it again.

762
01:02:28,254 --> 01:02:33,754
Yeah, I have a philosophical question for you that I think I have asked once in the podcast.

763
01:02:33,974 --> 01:02:41,314
But, well, first I want to know your opinion about, you know, that there's a lot of debate about what's going to happen with quantum computing.

764
01:02:41,314 --> 01:02:48,974
But there's also the question that I think there will be a point that, of course, Bitcoin with this, Indiana is software.

765
01:02:49,174 --> 01:02:50,414
So software is updated.

766
01:02:50,734 --> 01:02:58,694
So somehow we'll be able to update everything in some sort to defy quantum.

767
01:02:58,694 --> 01:03:05,014
But of course, there is the Bitcoin that belongs to Satoshi and the wallet.

768
01:03:05,374 --> 01:03:12,474
And the question is that it was sort of like, what is our responsibility with those coins

769
01:03:12,474 --> 01:03:13,574
and with his wallet?

770
01:03:13,894 --> 01:03:17,454
Should we leave it that way or do something with it?

771
01:03:17,554 --> 01:03:19,214
So what is your opinion on that?

772
01:03:19,334 --> 01:03:20,674
That's a great question.

773
01:03:20,954 --> 01:03:22,514
It's one I'm pondering.

774
01:03:22,734 --> 01:03:27,274
I'll tell you where I sit right now, but I reserve the right to change my mind because

775
01:03:27,274 --> 01:03:28,034
it's a hard one.

776
01:03:28,034 --> 01:03:31,274
I believe fundamentally Bitcoin is about property rights.

777
01:03:32,394 --> 01:03:38,834
And I think that either freezing Satoshi's coins or restricting the movement of Satoshi's

778
01:03:38,834 --> 01:03:41,254
coins is a violation of property rights.

779
01:03:41,254 --> 01:03:48,714
So my natural tendency right now is to say we leave them be and let happen whatever happens.

780
01:03:48,934 --> 01:03:55,274
That said, I am seriously thinking about some of the proposals.

781
01:03:55,554 --> 01:03:56,834
There's a project called Hourglass.

782
01:03:56,834 --> 01:04:01,674
There's a version two of it right now that those are interested in that topic I can go

783
01:04:01,674 --> 01:04:02,274
read about.

784
01:04:02,654 --> 01:04:05,574
And I interact with that group on a semi-regular basis.

785
01:04:05,774 --> 01:04:11,054
I actually just wrote a little piece on the Bitcoin dev mailing list on this where there's

786
01:04:11,054 --> 01:04:17,294
a proposal right now that says, well, we won't restrict the keys, but maybe we allow a maximum

787
01:04:17,294 --> 01:04:24,134
of one Bitcoin per block from those keys to move, to slow down.

788
01:04:24,134 --> 01:04:39,114
So if the quantum keys were discovered and I actually made a proposal, two proposals as a modification of that just over the last couple of days where I said, well, maybe what we could do is use the halving schedule.

789
01:04:39,114 --> 01:04:44,674
So we say we start with maybe a maximum of two Bitcoin per block.

790
01:04:44,934 --> 01:04:51,214
And then with every halving, we reduce the number of Bitcoin so that, again, it takes

791
01:04:51,214 --> 01:04:54,894
a long time and it takes longer and longer and longer for these keys to move.

792
01:04:55,294 --> 01:05:00,834
But then I think my favorite one is actually my other proposal, which is the opposite of

793
01:05:00,834 --> 01:05:08,034
that, that we start by saying maybe it's only a million sats, one-tenth of a Bitcoin per

794
01:05:08,034 --> 01:05:08,514
block.

795
01:05:08,514 --> 01:05:12,694
But on the same schedule as the halving, we double it.

796
01:05:13,034 --> 01:05:17,214
So over time, we allow more and more of the coins to come out.

797
01:05:17,574 --> 01:05:23,214
And the reason for that is that if there is a quantum computer that can break it, obviously,

798
01:05:23,294 --> 01:05:24,514
there'll be a first one.

799
01:05:24,654 --> 01:05:28,754
Well, the first guy with a quantum computer can only get a tiny amount.

800
01:05:29,134 --> 01:05:34,374
But it takes maybe several decades to get where there's a lot of Bitcoin that could

801
01:05:34,374 --> 01:05:36,474
come out in a block.

802
01:05:36,474 --> 01:05:44,394
But by that time, there would be multiple quantum attackers who would have to compete, much like the miners, to get them.

803
01:05:44,734 --> 01:05:54,874
And now the economic incentive gets really difficult because these are expensive computers that consume a lot of electricity, and it follows the same pattern as the miner.

804
01:05:54,874 --> 01:06:01,374
You know, so I'm warming to, obviously that was my idea.

805
01:06:01,834 --> 01:06:04,114
I'm warming to it a little bit.

806
01:06:04,274 --> 01:06:14,274
So which would be to restrict it to a small amount in the initial blocks and then use a doubling schedule to ultimately be to the point where it's unlimited.

807
01:06:14,274 --> 01:06:25,174
But by that time, the number of quantum computers would be so great that it would be difficult for any one quantum attacker to actually get them.

808
01:06:25,234 --> 01:06:28,614
There would be multiple quantum attackers who could do it.

809
01:06:28,934 --> 01:06:29,734
Oh, that's very fascinating.

810
01:06:30,194 --> 01:06:33,634
So I asked a philosophical question, but you actually had some answer about it.

811
01:06:34,074 --> 01:06:35,174
Yeah, yeah.

812
01:06:35,294 --> 01:06:36,074
That's interesting.

813
01:06:36,694 --> 01:06:37,254
Okay.

814
01:06:37,574 --> 01:06:42,654
Bob, I won't take more of your time, but first, thank you for stopping by on the podcast.

815
01:06:42,654 --> 01:06:44,214
that we have learned a lot.

816
01:06:44,274 --> 01:06:44,934
I have learned a lot

817
01:06:44,934 --> 01:06:46,174
and I know the audience

818
01:06:46,174 --> 01:06:47,394
will learn much more.

819
01:06:47,594 --> 01:06:48,414
So thank you for your time.

820
01:06:48,654 --> 01:06:49,294
Thank you, Juan.

821
01:06:49,534 --> 01:06:50,574
My best to everybody

822
01:06:50,574 --> 01:06:51,554
in Barcelona

823
01:06:51,554 --> 01:06:53,474
and El Salvador.

824
01:06:53,814 --> 01:06:54,634
Thank you very much.

825
01:06:54,794 --> 01:06:55,294
So guys,

826
01:06:55,414 --> 01:06:56,054
that was it.

827
01:06:56,134 --> 01:06:57,254
Hopefully we'll have

828
01:06:57,254 --> 01:06:58,734
a second episode with Bob

829
01:06:58,734 --> 01:07:00,354
and probably we'll bring

830
01:07:00,354 --> 01:07:02,334
Gary or Larry.

831
01:07:02,634 --> 01:07:03,434
Oh, we could do that.

832
01:07:03,554 --> 01:07:04,414
We could do one with

833
01:07:04,414 --> 01:07:05,494
the Trinity.

834
01:07:05,854 --> 01:07:05,934
Sure.

835
01:07:06,054 --> 01:07:06,354
The tree.

836
01:07:06,614 --> 01:07:07,554
Take the name,

837
01:07:07,654 --> 01:07:07,934
the Trinity.

838
01:07:08,194 --> 01:07:09,394
And please say hi to them

839
01:07:09,394 --> 01:07:10,014
now that you're going

840
01:07:10,014 --> 01:07:10,694
to BlinkBot.

841
01:07:11,714 --> 01:07:12,054
All right.

842
01:07:12,134 --> 01:07:12,474
Bye, guys.

843
01:07:12,654 --> 01:07:13,834
see you next week.

844
01:07:14,134 --> 01:07:15,574
That's it for this week.

845
01:07:15,934 --> 01:07:16,134
Ciao.

846
01:07:16,494 --> 01:07:16,754
Thanks.

847
01:07:42,654 --> 01:08:12,634
Thank you.

848
01:08:12,654 --> 01:08:42,634
Thank you.

849
01:08:42,654 --> 01:09:12,634
Thank you.

850
01:09:12,654 --> 01:09:42,634
Thank you.

851
01:09:42,654 --> 01:10:12,634
Thank you.

852
01:10:12,654 --> 01:10:42,634
Thank you.

853
01:10:42,654 --> 01:11:12,634
Thank you.

854
01:11:12,654 --> 01:11:42,634
Thank you.

855
01:11:42,654 --> 01:12:12,634
Thank you.

856
01:12:12,654 --> 01:12:42,634
Thank you.

857
01:12:42,654 --> 01:13:12,634
Thank you.

858
01:13:12,654 --> 01:13:42,634
Thank you.

859
01:13:42,654 --> 01:14:12,634
Thank you.

860
01:14:12,654 --> 01:14:42,634
Thank you.

861
01:14:42,654 --> 01:15:12,634
Thank you.

862
01:15:12,654 --> 01:15:42,634
Thank you.

863
01:15:42,654 --> 01:16:12,634
Thank you.