1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,760 All I wanted to do was do Anthony Bourdain's job. 2 00:00:02,840 --> 00:00:05,680 Let me travel and eat food everywhere. 3 00:00:06,100 --> 00:00:07,360 Like, that's how I viewed the world. 4 00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:08,680 I was like, anything's possible. 5 00:00:09,260 --> 00:00:11,760 And then that event shaped my family, 6 00:00:12,020 --> 00:00:13,780 and then it totally changed my worldview. 7 00:00:13,900 --> 00:00:16,860 I watched my parents have to lose that house that I loved. 8 00:00:16,900 --> 00:00:18,720 It was a tiny little townhouse, but I loved it. 9 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:21,140 And I thought, gosh, like, this system is so unfair. 10 00:00:21,240 --> 00:00:22,820 The American dream is a lie. 11 00:00:23,060 --> 00:00:24,780 You see these bankers getting bailed out. 12 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:26,440 These people continue to fail up. 13 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:29,000 Even if they have destroyed the city that they beside, 14 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:31,900 they end up getting an even bigger political role. 15 00:00:32,160 --> 00:00:37,460 Like if you have a system with a central bank that controls the money and can expand the supply 16 00:00:37,460 --> 00:00:42,240 and issues the reserve currency, how can you have a truly free market? 17 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:44,060 Journalists should be watchdogs. 18 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:46,500 They shouldn't be lapdogs for the people in power. 19 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:47,560 They should be watchdogs. 20 00:00:47,740 --> 00:00:49,960 I had stories that were silenced or censored. 21 00:00:50,100 --> 00:00:50,640 That's unbelievable. 22 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:51,960 And you can't do much about it. 23 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:55,900 Like you feel very powerless and you end up finding other people in the newsroom that 24 00:00:55,900 --> 00:01:00,080 you kind of chat about it with and you're sort of, you know, in a corner kind of being 25 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:01,500 like, this is not okay. 26 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:07,500 But that's why I really love being independent because now I get to decide what is a meaningful 27 00:01:07,500 --> 00:01:08,000 story. 28 00:01:08,220 --> 00:01:09,620 So I want to level the playing field. 29 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:10,640 I want to give people hope. 30 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:13,900 Down the rabbit hole. 31 00:01:15,020 --> 00:01:15,460 Down. 32 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:16,360 Cypherpunk. 33 00:01:17,580 --> 00:01:18,340 Rabbit hole. 34 00:01:18,340 --> 00:01:27,600 Welcome back to another episode of Cypherpump, where we explore money's history, crypto's 35 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:30,700 future, and Web3's role in advancing human rights, freedom, and digital liberty. 36 00:01:31,140 --> 00:01:35,780 Today's guest is Natalie Brunel, an Emmy-winning investigative journalist, first-generation 37 00:01:35,780 --> 00:01:39,080 American, and one of the most trusted educators in the Bitcoin space. 38 00:01:39,380 --> 00:01:44,020 She's the host of the podcast Coin Stories, author of Bitcoin is for Everyone, and a board 39 00:01:44,020 --> 00:01:45,120 member of Semler Scientific. 40 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:54,800 Her family's immigrant journey from communist Poland and their experience losing everything in the 2008 financial crisis shaped her conviction that our money is broken and that Bitcoin offers a path forward. 41 00:01:55,100 --> 00:01:55,680 Welcome to the show. 42 00:01:56,060 --> 00:01:57,040 Thanks so much for having me. 43 00:01:57,280 --> 00:01:58,380 I'm glad to have you here. 44 00:01:59,300 --> 00:02:01,840 So I'm actually Polish as well. 45 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:02,460 No way. 46 00:02:02,540 --> 00:02:09,100 I thought that was a really interesting story when I was reading your book and you were talking about being in like that line and getting up in like the communist line. 47 00:02:09,100 --> 00:02:14,020 And like right before you went, like the last, I think you wanted a cookie or something. 48 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:14,560 A paruski. 49 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:15,320 A paroovki. 50 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:16,340 They're little hot dogs. 51 00:02:16,460 --> 00:02:16,620 Yeah. 52 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:19,840 The lady in front of you got the last one or something. 53 00:02:20,220 --> 00:02:21,920 That is wild to even think about. 54 00:02:22,460 --> 00:02:22,640 Yeah. 55 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:28,360 I actually talked about it on Robert Kiyosaki's show because if you knew someone that grew 56 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:32,200 up under communism or you did yourself, those were the stories of your life. 57 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:37,280 I mean, constant shortages, no sense of economic hope or social mobility. 58 00:02:38,580 --> 00:02:43,200 And so my parents just dreamt of coming to the United States and it took them a long, 59 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:49,260 long time to get there. So I really admire them because, you know, by the time someone's in their 60 00:02:49,260 --> 00:02:54,320 late thirties or forties or fifties, a lot of people would say, you know what, it's too late. 61 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:58,500 I'm too old. I'm not going to make this transition. But they didn't. They were like, 62 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:02,520 we will learn the new language. We're going to start over. We don't know anyone, but we're going 63 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:07,180 to figure it out. And, um, and they did. And it was really like a sacrifice for their children to 64 00:03:07,180 --> 00:03:13,140 have a better life. So a lot of people don't know this. I was born in 1991, 1991. So that was like 65 00:03:13,140 --> 00:03:17,700 right around when the Soviet Union fell and all this kind of stuff played out. That's the year I 66 00:03:17,700 --> 00:03:22,540 came. So you came the year I was born. How old were you? I was five. Five. Okay. Do you actually 67 00:03:22,540 --> 00:03:27,060 have any memories of when you were five and less or these are just stories that your parents told 68 00:03:27,060 --> 00:03:33,080 you? Like a little bit. It's really hard. I mean, I definitely have vague memories of my life in 69 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:39,640 Poland when I was very young in the neighborhood we lived in. But the actual flight over here, 70 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:46,420 I, I like remember just kind of snapshots of it, but I don't, I remember the first place we lived 71 00:03:46,420 --> 00:03:52,760 here, but my first memories I feel like are when I was, um, when we were here and I just, I watched 72 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:59,100 my parents working so hard and they would get up in, you know, in, in Chicago where we were, 73 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:05,180 the winters are brutal. And so, and I think we moved around like January and I just remember 74 00:04:05,180 --> 00:04:11,620 they would have to get up and scrape the snow off the car and the ice and they would just go off to 75 00:04:11,620 --> 00:04:17,360 work. And, um, I feel like they just, they sacrifice so much. I mean, my parents were both 76 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:23,560 working six days a week just for us to live in this tiny little apartment and they slept on the 77 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:28,300 sofa bed. And my brother and I had a room cause my brother and I have a 12 year age difference. 78 00:04:28,300 --> 00:04:33,000 So there were two bedrooms in the apartment and, and I feel like we were fortunate to have that. 79 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:37,500 And so my parents gave my brother a room and me a room and then they slept on the sofa. 80 00:04:37,780 --> 00:04:38,600 What a sacrifice. 81 00:04:38,900 --> 00:04:42,300 I mean, did you guys realize that at the time what a big deal that was or you just didn't 82 00:04:42,300 --> 00:04:43,380 even think about it because you were kids? 83 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:45,440 It's a little bit of both. 84 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:49,880 I mean, I feel like at first I didn't realize it, but then when I went to school and I started 85 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:58,120 visiting my friends' family homes, I realized, oh, wow, like we're poor because my friends 86 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:00,560 were growing up in homes that were really beautiful. 87 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:05,720 like, you know, the middle class vision of the American dream with the white picket fence. And 88 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:11,340 a lot of my friends' moms did not have to work. So it was a single income household and both my 89 00:05:11,340 --> 00:05:15,860 parents worked. So that's when I started to realize, oh, you know, it's, it's different. 90 00:05:16,140 --> 00:05:20,860 And of course, when you're little, like, I feel like you can't help but feel shame, right? Like 91 00:05:20,860 --> 00:05:25,020 you don't want to be different. You don't want to be considered different. And because I was an 92 00:05:25,020 --> 00:05:30,460 immigrant, people said I was an alien. I was a foreign alien or whatever. And so, yeah, that, 93 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:34,220 That stuff is tough, but over time, it definitely helps you build a thicker skin. 94 00:05:34,460 --> 00:05:36,260 But I always just wanted to fit in. 95 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:39,280 I feel like when you're little, you just want to fit in and be liked. 96 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:42,700 And I struggled with just how different my family was. 97 00:05:42,780 --> 00:05:44,580 I wanted to hide it at the time, right? 98 00:05:44,740 --> 00:05:45,440 Do you speak Polish? 99 00:05:45,900 --> 00:05:47,880 So I speak very broken Polish. 100 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:52,840 And that's because I ended up learning two languages after Polish. 101 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:56,640 And so now when I go to speak Polish, I think of, I'm fluent in Italian. 102 00:05:56,640 --> 00:06:03,560 So I think of an Italian word when I go to speak Polish, but I think if I was there for a week, it would all come back to me. 103 00:06:03,860 --> 00:06:08,180 But my parents still speak Polish to each other and my brother speaks Polish to them. 104 00:06:08,260 --> 00:06:10,140 So I understand it completely. 105 00:06:10,260 --> 00:06:12,260 It's just when I go to speak it, I kind of speak. 106 00:06:12,700 --> 00:06:12,840 Yeah. 107 00:06:12,980 --> 00:06:13,580 So interesting. 108 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:14,100 Yeah. 109 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:15,600 What city were you guys from? 110 00:06:15,780 --> 00:06:16,320 Like what area? 111 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:17,440 It's called Wooch. 112 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:18,060 Wooch? 113 00:06:18,220 --> 00:06:18,360 Yeah. 114 00:06:18,380 --> 00:06:19,280 It's in the very center. 115 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:24,920 It was kind of known for manufacturing and Poland has changed a lot. 116 00:06:25,100 --> 00:06:25,460 Oh, yeah. 117 00:06:25,460 --> 00:06:29,220 I think Poland's got the right idea right now, apparently. 118 00:06:29,300 --> 00:06:30,320 I think it's happening in Europe. 119 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:34,320 A lot of good things are coming out of Poland, and a lot of bad things are coming out of everywhere else, what it seems. 120 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:36,360 Well, they learned their lesson, right? 121 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:46,180 So emerging out of communism, they took the country in a very different direction, and they wanted to open up a more free market and go the more capitalistic route. 122 00:06:47,100 --> 00:06:53,600 And so you see it now, and the GDP has grown a lot, and people have a lot more freedom than they ever did. 123 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:57,640 And so my parents actually, they keep in touch with all of their friends from when they were younger. 124 00:06:57,980 --> 00:07:01,280 And their friends have a very high quality of life. 125 00:07:02,020 --> 00:07:07,280 And seeing what they went through here, it's just kind of, it's crazy when you think about it. 126 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:15,180 I'm very sad that two people who gave up so much and came here and then really struggled after the great financial crisis, like their friends are doing better. 127 00:07:15,540 --> 00:07:16,520 In Poland now. 128 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:16,960 Yes. 129 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:17,580 It's wild. 130 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:18,180 Right. 131 00:07:18,700 --> 00:07:22,000 But I mean, they still gave you and your brother an incredible life, it sounds like. 132 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:24,280 And, you know, you've been wildly successful. 133 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:26,900 So kudos to them for all the sacrifices they made. 134 00:07:27,180 --> 00:07:27,840 Well, thank you. 135 00:07:27,900 --> 00:07:36,340 I mean, I think that that's what's always driven me is to justify those sacrifices because I felt like I was my mom kind of felt like she was already too late. 136 00:07:36,340 --> 00:07:40,100 Like, you know, she she had to start over in her 40s and in a new country. 137 00:07:40,300 --> 00:07:44,240 And then she had to start over again in her late 50s after the great financial crisis. 138 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:49,420 And so I feel like she always saw me as kind of living out her American dream. 139 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:51,160 I take that very seriously. 140 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:57,160 That's what you want for your kids, though. I mean, that's, you know, part of the American dream is that your kids are better off than you were, right? 141 00:07:57,360 --> 00:07:57,580 Yeah. 142 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:01,340 I have kids now and I want that. I want them to do even better than I've done. 143 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:11,520 Exactly. And I take great pride in that and I take that very seriously. So I want to make her proud and I want to take care of my parents. And that's always, that's been something that's motivated me my whole life. 144 00:08:11,980 --> 00:08:18,240 Interesting. I'm a third generation Polak. My family was from a town called Valdaviche. 145 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:18,780 Okay. 146 00:08:18,780 --> 00:08:19,760 Do you know where that's at? 147 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:21,120 I don't know where it is, but I've heard of it. 148 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:25,620 So my great grandfather was best friends with Pope John Paul II. 149 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:26,380 They were neighbors. 150 00:08:26,620 --> 00:08:27,000 Oh, wow. 151 00:08:27,020 --> 00:08:29,080 So that's all I really know about. 152 00:08:29,100 --> 00:08:29,580 Paddle. 153 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:29,940 Yeah. 154 00:08:29,980 --> 00:08:30,420 Yeah, that's cool. 155 00:08:30,420 --> 00:08:31,040 Kind of wild, right? 156 00:08:31,060 --> 00:08:33,760 Yeah, I mean, he was just revered. 157 00:08:34,100 --> 00:08:38,340 And to this day, I mean, my grandma had photos of Pope John Paul. 158 00:08:38,820 --> 00:08:39,260 Really? 159 00:08:39,580 --> 00:08:39,780 Yeah. 160 00:08:39,860 --> 00:08:44,600 And my mom went to the Vatican while she was pregnant with me and got blessed by Pope John Paul II. 161 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:44,960 Yeah. 162 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:45,180 Yeah. 163 00:08:45,180 --> 00:08:47,780 So my family's a big fan of that Pope. 164 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:48,220 Wow. 165 00:08:48,220 --> 00:08:50,760 So yeah, I guess he was from Valdivite. 166 00:08:51,420 --> 00:08:51,700 Yeah. 167 00:08:51,980 --> 00:08:54,640 And they were, I guess, right, they live next door neighbors. 168 00:08:54,740 --> 00:08:56,840 So they would just play all the time. 169 00:08:56,860 --> 00:08:57,620 That's amazing. 170 00:08:58,380 --> 00:08:59,840 So that was kind of a cool story. 171 00:08:59,940 --> 00:09:02,940 I didn't really think about it much when I was a little kid because I didn't really understand. 172 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:06,180 But my parents would tell me that. 173 00:09:06,420 --> 00:09:07,260 So it's kind of a cool story. 174 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:08,600 Yeah, that's really cool. 175 00:09:09,380 --> 00:09:11,680 So what happened in 2008? 176 00:09:11,740 --> 00:09:14,760 Because I know you kind of wrote about it a little bit with your parents and family. 177 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:18,000 And how did that how did that what happened affect your family? 178 00:09:18,140 --> 00:09:21,840 And did your parents got divorced because of it and I mean, pack some of that? 179 00:09:22,500 --> 00:09:24,200 Yeah, I mean, it really took a toll. 180 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:29,180 So my parents, they did everything that the American dream tells you to do. 181 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:30,800 Right. Work hard and save money. 182 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:34,300 But they came from a place where you don't you don't invest in stocks. 183 00:09:34,380 --> 00:09:40,440 Yeah. And during the early 2000s, as the housing bubble was forming, 184 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:45,520 everyone was encouraged to kind of like take out a second loan or take out debt. Right. So 185 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:50,940 leverage yourself to the extreme. Yeah. So my parents, my, it was my mom who wanted to start 186 00:09:50,940 --> 00:09:56,560 her own business and she wanted to start a little Polish eatery and deli. And she took out a home 187 00:09:56,560 --> 00:10:02,720 equity loan against the home. Um, and that's when, you know, when the, when the crisis actually 188 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:08,100 happened and when the bubble popped, the loan that she took out was now higher than the home 189 00:10:08,100 --> 00:10:12,800 was actually worth. Oh my goodness. And then, and my dad lost his job. And so they, they couldn't 190 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:17,020 make the payments. So, so your dad was, he wasn't working at the bakery at the time. She was trying 191 00:10:17,020 --> 00:10:20,340 to start that up as a startup. No, my dad was an electrician. Yeah. My mom was going to try to 192 00:10:20,340 --> 00:10:26,280 start a business. Um, and so they went, they went under, they filed for bankruptcy and the bank got 193 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:31,800 the home. Um, and so they lost everything. And it's just so interesting to think back on that 194 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:37,760 time because I was in college and I went out of state and my parents, I think they just, they tried 195 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:39,260 to hide how bad it was. 196 00:10:39,260 --> 00:10:39,480 Yeah. 197 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:41,480 And I think that that was out of protection. 198 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:43,640 Of course, they didn't want to put that on you and stress you out. 199 00:10:43,740 --> 00:10:44,140 Exactly. 200 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:47,200 But also like there, you know, some shame comes with that. 201 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:51,260 Like, especially for, I think that when you're a man, right? 202 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:52,680 And taking care of a family. 203 00:10:52,940 --> 00:10:53,260 For sure. 204 00:10:53,380 --> 00:10:53,800 And providing. 205 00:10:54,140 --> 00:10:58,760 And all of a sudden this, the rug gets pulled out from under you. 206 00:10:59,340 --> 00:11:05,500 I feel like that takes a toll also in a very deep way of just, you've almost failed your 207 00:11:05,500 --> 00:11:05,840 family. 208 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:07,080 That's what you end up feeling. 209 00:11:07,300 --> 00:11:07,460 Yeah. 210 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:14,680 And so I think that those pressures really took a toll on their marriage and things were not the same since then. 211 00:11:14,680 --> 00:11:17,580 And watching that really, it was painful. 212 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:24,580 It was hard because I grew up with two very loving parents and a very solid marriage that I got to watch and admire. 213 00:11:25,560 --> 00:11:28,800 But money is like the number one thing that people fight about, right? 214 00:11:28,900 --> 00:11:32,080 It's the thing that drives couples apart sometimes. 215 00:11:32,460 --> 00:11:34,760 And I saw that firsthand. 216 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:47,312 And so I think for me it was just at the time I felt so frustrated like so many people do today And I graduated into that recession after the crisis And I watched my parents have to lose that house that I loved 217 00:11:47,352 --> 00:11:52,172 I loved the little, it was a tiny little townhouse, but I loved it. And I thought, gosh, 218 00:11:52,252 --> 00:11:58,432 like this system is so unfair. The American dream is a lie. And you graduate, you're racked with 219 00:11:58,432 --> 00:12:03,732 student debt. You can't get a job that pays you enough to actually pay the bills. And you see 220 00:12:03,732 --> 00:12:08,572 these bankers getting bailed out. So of course I wrote in the book, like I really resonated with 221 00:12:08,572 --> 00:12:15,132 Occupy Wall Street. I was like, yeah, we should tax the rich. This is so unfair. This system is 222 00:12:15,132 --> 00:12:20,132 taking advantage of the little guy and the little guy's basically my parents and me. Um, and so I 223 00:12:20,132 --> 00:12:25,392 started my career in journalism with that as sort of the fuel and the fire to be an investigator. 224 00:12:25,392 --> 00:12:30,692 And so I wanted to root out public corruption. So it's funny watching like now all the fraud 225 00:12:30,692 --> 00:12:32,812 investigations that are happening because that was my beat. 226 00:12:32,932 --> 00:12:33,092 It is. 227 00:12:33,292 --> 00:12:38,312 Are you like seeing the level of like, I mean, I've always known it's been going on and I 228 00:12:38,312 --> 00:12:40,852 feel like probably if you're a Bitcoiner, you've kind of known it's going on. 229 00:12:40,892 --> 00:12:44,332 But like I was talking to Michelle Weekly the other day here on a podcast that we haven't 230 00:12:44,332 --> 00:12:47,032 released it yet, but I coined this term fiat fraud. 231 00:12:47,712 --> 00:12:49,112 So that's what we were calling it. 232 00:12:49,112 --> 00:12:53,052 And it's like it's unbelievable the levels of fiat fraud that can exist. 233 00:12:53,372 --> 00:12:53,552 Yes. 234 00:12:53,672 --> 00:12:57,932 I mean, like I guess they caught some dude trying to flee back to Somalia with a million 235 00:12:57,932 --> 00:13:02,212 dollars in the suitcase just like yesterday trying to go through dsa or whatever right i mean and then 236 00:13:02,212 --> 00:13:06,092 they wouldn't found like lockers in the airport and there was million i mean this is absurd well 237 00:13:06,092 --> 00:13:11,692 and i just want to say that following that story there were local outlets similar to the ones i 238 00:13:11,692 --> 00:13:18,052 used to work at that covered this and it just didn't hit the national airwaves until that nick 239 00:13:18,052 --> 00:13:24,212 um youtuber that was that brilliantly exposed it and it reached um kind of like international 240 00:13:24,212 --> 00:13:28,592 headlines. But this, I mean, this is what local journalists are supposed to uncover. 241 00:13:28,832 --> 00:13:31,612 They're supposed to be doing, but it just feels like they don't do any of it. 242 00:13:31,612 --> 00:13:37,992 And I loved that aspect of journalism. I loved kind of following the money and kind of peering 243 00:13:37,992 --> 00:13:44,732 behind what was actually happening behind those closed doors of city council. And so I was part 244 00:13:44,732 --> 00:13:50,592 of multiple investigations that won awards because I was very determined to hold people accountable. 245 00:13:50,592 --> 00:13:55,572 because again, like I saw it as just as, as honoring my parents' sacrifice too. I was like, 246 00:13:55,572 --> 00:14:00,012 there are bad people that are taking advantage of the average worker and they should be held to 247 00:14:00,012 --> 00:14:04,992 account. And, and journalists should be watchdogs. They shouldn't be lapdogs for the people in power. 248 00:14:05,092 --> 00:14:10,952 They should be watchdogs. So I helped uncover some very big public corruption cases in California 249 00:14:10,952 --> 00:14:15,672 that I'm very proud of. Um, but like everything's just scratching the surface. Cause like this 250 00:14:15,672 --> 00:14:21,132 happening all over the country and basically the taxpayer dollars are just getting wasted or 251 00:14:21,132 --> 00:14:27,092 siphoned off. It's mind blowing how much of it is happening. I mean, it's, did you have, 252 00:14:27,152 --> 00:14:30,492 so when you worked at CNN, did you actually have freedom to kind of like do what you wanted to do? 253 00:14:30,492 --> 00:14:34,712 What was the politics behind the scene? Were they pushing back on you on some things? Did 254 00:14:34,712 --> 00:14:37,932 you get called off certain cases or did you have, did they just let you go? 255 00:14:38,472 --> 00:14:43,552 So CNN was my first gig outside of, um, after grad school. And that was more of almost like 256 00:14:43,552 --> 00:14:48,572 a training ground. Yeah. Like I, I worked all behind the scenes, not on camera. And I was 257 00:14:48,572 --> 00:14:54,852 putting together sort of my portfolio to eventually be able to go on camera. Um, so I saw, I saw a lot 258 00:14:54,852 --> 00:15:00,152 behind the scenes and I helped construct stories and do research and field production. And I wrote 259 00:15:00,152 --> 00:15:05,772 some stories that went online, but I was not on camera as the actual reporter anchor. Um, and then 260 00:15:05,772 --> 00:15:10,552 I went off to a series of networks and throughout my career, I mean, I've had people that I've worked 261 00:15:10,552 --> 00:15:15,492 with that have been fantastic and who really represent the integrity that I think the journalism 262 00:15:15,492 --> 00:15:22,072 industry should stand for. And I had others that I felt were very biased and, you know, 263 00:15:22,072 --> 00:15:29,272 just kind of fell in line with what the powers or the agencies du jour would want them to say. 264 00:15:29,452 --> 00:15:33,532 And that was very, very frustrating for me because I had stories that were silenced or censored. 265 00:15:33,692 --> 00:15:38,312 That's unbelievable. The opposite of journalism. Literally, that's activism. That's not journalism. 266 00:15:38,312 --> 00:16:07,612 And you can't do much about it. Like you feel very powerless and you end up finding other people in the newsroom that you kind of chat about it with. And you're sort of, you know, in a corner kind of being like, this is this is not okay. But that's why I really love being independent, because now I get to decide what is a meaningful story and I get to decide who to interview. And and I get to push back on some of the narratives that are kind of top down told to us. Right. Because at the end of the day, when I was a journalist, 267 00:16:07,612 --> 00:16:16,712 we would look for the like facts and the evidence um from state agencies it's like what what the fda 268 00:16:16,712 --> 00:16:21,392 says is fact what the cdc says it's like this appeal to authority that i think has an official 269 00:16:21,392 --> 00:16:27,992 statement right and and i didn't know early on that you can't necessarily trust those yeah it's 270 00:16:27,992 --> 00:16:31,772 like big brother you know you're kind of like what big brother says it's it's yeah it's it's an 271 00:16:31,772 --> 00:16:36,152 interesting people's it melts people's brains to even think about that they're like well this 272 00:16:36,152 --> 00:16:41,132 well the CDC said or this person said it's like you know why do you just believe in what they said 273 00:16:41,132 --> 00:16:44,912 you know what is the motivations here to be are there potential blind spots or biases are there 274 00:16:44,912 --> 00:16:49,172 potential conflicts of interest of course there is you know you have to really dig deeper to 275 00:16:49,172 --> 00:16:54,152 understand things yeah well and I remember being young and like Wikipedia first came out and you 276 00:16:54,152 --> 00:16:58,412 would research I think people can relate to this you you would research your your essays for school 277 00:16:58,412 --> 00:17:03,832 right you had to do your bibliography with your sources and if it would be an official source if 278 00:17:03,832 --> 00:17:05,432 it was a government agency. 279 00:17:05,472 --> 00:17:05,692 Yeah. 280 00:17:06,172 --> 00:17:11,652 Like if this came from the CIA, the NSA, the CDC, any three-letter word that came from 281 00:17:11,652 --> 00:17:13,212 the government, it was like, this is fact. 282 00:17:13,672 --> 00:17:15,692 And that's how you were taught in school. 283 00:17:15,912 --> 00:17:18,112 And then it translated into the news career. 284 00:17:18,252 --> 00:17:19,052 You're not wrong at all. 285 00:17:19,052 --> 00:17:24,052 I think the trust in media right now is like at 12% or 20%. 286 00:17:24,692 --> 00:17:26,472 It just keeps going. 287 00:17:26,572 --> 00:17:27,152 It's like this downward. 288 00:17:27,212 --> 00:17:29,732 If you look at it for the past 30 years, it's just like this downward trajectory. 289 00:17:29,732 --> 00:17:53,012 Yeah. So like all of that social capital that or social trust that built up has just been totally erased. So nobody really now it's like when things are true, it's like, do we really even know they're true? You know what I mean? So it's hard to because I talk to a lot of people all the time and it's like, we don't believe anything. Well, like some stuff's got to be true, right? Like they tell you the weather, they tell you this, this story that happened is a fact. And then boom, they throw in a little propaganda. I think that's kind of how they've gotten away with it for so long. 290 00:17:53,012 --> 00:18:10,432 Well, and it was funny because I worked in an industry that my parents were naturally very skeptical of because they came from, again, a communist country where the media was controlled by the state. And so they looked at anything on TV as potential propaganda, whereas I really had to learn that on my own. 291 00:18:10,432 --> 00:18:35,832 You know, the crazy thing is, though, that's how it should be. You shouldn't just trust. I mean, that's what the media is for. You shouldn't just trust the corporation or trust the government like the media is there. They should be there to hold these big powers to account, whether it's a government, whether it's a corporation, whatever it is. Right. And I think that if we look at the way that a lot of the media organizations operate now, it's like we're following some of the money trail. It's like, wait, 95 percent of their budget comes from the government. 292 00:18:35,832 --> 00:18:51,092 I mean, is that a real business? Is that a, you know what I mean? Like that to me is insane. They got these NGOs that are non-governmental organizations, yet all of the funding comes from the government. So are they NGOs or are they just an extension of the government? 293 00:18:51,092 --> 00:19:17,232 Right. And you really don't see as much diversity of thought. And if you peel back these institutions, they all vote the same way. They support the same political candidates. And so how do you trust them when there isn't? Like if people think that diversity is important, then they should agree that diversity of opinion is a key component to that, a diverse way of people looking at things. 294 00:19:17,232 --> 00:19:24,292 So a newsroom should have like a balance of different political views as opposed to being 98 percent one way or another. 295 00:19:24,632 --> 00:19:33,132 Of course. Yeah. Have you ever seen that clip where like all of the news stations are saying the exact same thing at the exact same time, just all repeating the exact word for word thing? 296 00:19:33,252 --> 00:19:35,412 What is that and why is it like that? 297 00:19:35,412 --> 00:19:37,352 So this is actually interesting. 298 00:19:37,772 --> 00:19:44,372 So news gathering and news organizations, when you talk about TV, I was always focused 299 00:19:44,372 --> 00:19:45,152 in the TV world. 300 00:19:45,432 --> 00:19:48,552 So newspapers were like this too, but I'm specifically going to focus on TV. 301 00:19:48,732 --> 00:19:50,712 It was much more decentralized in the past. 302 00:19:50,752 --> 00:19:53,412 So you would have stations that are actually family owned. 303 00:19:53,532 --> 00:19:57,972 Like a family could own a broadcast station and then they purchased the ability to run 304 00:19:57,972 --> 00:20:01,552 ABC or NBC or whatever the call tags are on it. 305 00:20:02,392 --> 00:20:05,172 That started to consolidate more and more. 306 00:20:05,172 --> 00:20:06,892 And you can blame fiat for that, right? 307 00:20:06,912 --> 00:20:08,672 We've seen it in the food system. 308 00:20:08,812 --> 00:20:12,472 We've seen it in pretty much everything across the board when it comes to our economy. 309 00:20:12,752 --> 00:20:15,952 So the news organizations start to consolidate as well. 310 00:20:16,032 --> 00:20:16,912 They get bought up. 311 00:20:17,172 --> 00:20:18,692 We're seeing this in private equity now, right? 312 00:20:18,692 --> 00:20:23,472 Like all the dentist offices are being bought up by one private equity firm or all the vets 313 00:20:23,472 --> 00:20:23,712 are. 314 00:20:23,892 --> 00:20:25,652 Well, in news, they began to consolidate. 315 00:20:25,912 --> 00:20:30,772 So that example is one where I think that was Sinclair Broadcasting. 316 00:20:30,772 --> 00:20:45,612 So you have an owner of many stations across the country, many affiliates that range from the north, south, west, all over, but they're getting the same messaging from the top of all of our anchors are going to read this script. 317 00:20:46,192 --> 00:20:48,132 So it all funnels into the top. 318 00:20:48,692 --> 00:20:49,932 And that's a problem. 319 00:20:49,932 --> 00:21:00,892 Again, when you centralize anything, you introduce a lot of incentives for potentially corruption, right? 320 00:21:01,012 --> 00:21:02,312 Potential for manipulation. 321 00:21:02,452 --> 00:21:03,452 It's much easier to manipulate. 322 00:21:04,032 --> 00:21:06,272 Especially when you have one governing body. 323 00:21:06,272 --> 00:21:07,012 It's just game theory. 324 00:21:07,292 --> 00:21:08,212 It's basic game theory. 325 00:21:08,452 --> 00:21:08,712 Yeah. 326 00:21:09,152 --> 00:21:19,132 As opposed to having many different stations competing in this robust kind of ecosystem that has diversity among the different markets and represents each individual little area. 327 00:21:19,852 --> 00:21:20,792 So that's what happened. 328 00:21:20,932 --> 00:21:22,252 I mean, you consolidated. 329 00:21:22,572 --> 00:21:27,092 All these stations are owned by one company, and the people that run the company decide 330 00:21:27,092 --> 00:21:28,352 what gets on the airwaves. 331 00:21:28,512 --> 00:21:31,392 So if you're an anchor, you have no control over what you're going to say? 332 00:21:31,572 --> 00:21:34,032 Like you just have to read the script that they give you? 333 00:21:35,352 --> 00:21:36,132 Yes and no. 334 00:21:36,232 --> 00:21:40,272 So most anchors do not write their scripts. 335 00:21:41,552 --> 00:21:47,892 At the big level, at the network level, when you see the major news broadcasts, a lot of 336 00:21:47,892 --> 00:21:52,732 the anchors are also managing editors, which means they do work with the writers and producers and 337 00:21:52,732 --> 00:21:57,152 at least edit the scripts, if not. That's what I would think. But like when you watch this video, 338 00:21:57,152 --> 00:22:02,352 it's like they literally verbatim repeated the same lines. Like, I mean, that's crazy. 339 00:22:02,852 --> 00:22:08,912 So I've worked at various different news networks and I've had, you know, I also did internships. 340 00:22:09,252 --> 00:22:13,692 It really honestly ranged. There were some anchors who walked in and literally just read whatever. 341 00:22:13,852 --> 00:22:16,412 It was like Anchorman, right? Like whatever came up on the screen. 342 00:22:16,412 --> 00:22:21,092 Burgundy up there. Yes. And sometimes they would kind of read it through at least beforehand, 343 00:22:21,092 --> 00:22:26,112 but some would literally just read it off the prompter. Others really took the time to help 344 00:22:26,112 --> 00:22:31,032 write it, to help craft it, to mentor the staff that was actually producing and writing. Because 345 00:22:31,032 --> 00:22:36,332 usually like if you're starting out in the news business and TV, it's a lot of very young people 346 00:22:36,332 --> 00:22:40,372 behind the scenes, like literally emerging from college and journalism school, and they're writing 347 00:22:40,372 --> 00:22:45,572 the stories. And then you have anchors that have been there for decades. And so the anchors actually, 348 00:22:45,572 --> 00:22:56,692 I mean, their role is to kind of mentor and help the producers sort of understand what works and what storytelling really is and how to construct a great story. 349 00:22:56,872 --> 00:23:00,332 So they should work in tandem and one should teach the other. 350 00:23:01,132 --> 00:23:02,172 But sometimes you don't see that. 351 00:23:02,292 --> 00:23:06,072 Sometimes they walk in and they just read whatever's written for them. 352 00:23:07,652 --> 00:23:08,492 That's wild. 353 00:23:08,492 --> 00:23:15,272 I mean, even when I have my team help me make questions and script and stuff, I edit, I put notes, I won't read some of the questions. 354 00:23:15,272 --> 00:23:17,232 I'll highlight one that I really like 355 00:23:17,232 --> 00:23:18,312 and change the way it's written. 356 00:23:18,512 --> 00:23:32,264 I mean I just it doesn seem from what I saw it was like you don see any of that It just like this line from hundreds of stations I mean it a good question It gave me goosebumps watching that thing And it was like these guys are just reading you know it was like literally a hundred Ron Burgundy just like 357 00:23:32,444 --> 00:23:34,004 yes, and accept this propaganda. 358 00:23:34,384 --> 00:23:41,604 A lot of affiliates are owned by like a small, a small group or one organization or one network that controls a lot of different stations across the country. 359 00:23:41,604 --> 00:23:47,044 But yeah, I mean, I have stories for days because the TV industry is a fascinating one. 360 00:23:47,044 --> 00:24:02,424 And it's interesting, too, because I learned that the best anchors were the people who were actually out in the field at one point, the people who did serve as reporters and they knew how to, like, dig up a story and report on it and do the interviews. 361 00:24:02,924 --> 00:24:11,284 Because sometimes when you go in, like, there will be situations where you just you land in the anchor desk very quickly and then you move up only as an anchor. 362 00:24:11,284 --> 00:24:17,624 So you haven't been a reporter. You don't know what it takes to get out there and really dig up a story or report on one in the field. 363 00:24:18,164 --> 00:24:24,024 And I feel like those people struggle because they only know how to be in a studio and read off a teleprompter. 364 00:24:24,364 --> 00:24:28,484 Do you know where the real Bitcoin mining deals happen? Because it's not where you think. I'll tell you where. 365 00:24:28,664 --> 00:24:31,504 In secret group chats and back channels, it's a total wild west. 366 00:24:31,784 --> 00:24:33,104 Yeah, it really is. 367 00:24:33,304 --> 00:24:34,284 John, when did you get here? 368 00:24:34,284 --> 00:24:39,944 Well, hey, I'm not the awesome guest, but I am the VP of Curated Mining. 369 00:24:40,144 --> 00:24:41,504 And Matty, you're exactly right. 370 00:24:41,584 --> 00:24:48,384 If you try to navigate it alone, the risk of overpaying or partnering with the wrong people is incredibly high. 371 00:24:48,524 --> 00:24:52,924 It could take years to find the people that you can actually trust in this business. 372 00:24:53,124 --> 00:24:54,084 That makes a big difference, right? 373 00:24:54,164 --> 00:24:55,584 Not all million dollars are equal, right? 374 00:24:55,624 --> 00:24:58,024 They know what to expect from us and we know what to expect from them. 375 00:24:58,064 --> 00:25:02,944 And we can save a lot of money out the gate for you, even with you having the same amount of capital and trying to do it by yourself. 376 00:25:02,944 --> 00:25:06,224 There's things you know that you know, things that you know that you don't know. 377 00:25:06,504 --> 00:25:08,624 And then there's plenty of things that you don't know that you don't know. 378 00:25:08,784 --> 00:25:12,384 And that's why working with us is a huge benefit, especially for our curated deployments. 379 00:25:12,664 --> 00:25:19,924 And we manage the operation, the deployment, the uptime, the maintenance, the power contracts, and you just own part of the company. 380 00:25:20,184 --> 00:25:22,984 Most of the company, actually, we're just a minority partner and we do all the work. 381 00:25:23,044 --> 00:25:27,444 So basically you get all the benefits of mining without ever having to touch a wrench or a server rack. 382 00:25:28,204 --> 00:25:30,704 Curated Mining. Form your own Bitcoin mining company. 383 00:25:30,704 --> 00:25:38,824 now back to the show going back to natalie in 2008 ish time um you know obviously when you were 384 00:25:38,824 --> 00:25:43,564 thinking about the whole occupy wall street thing it was like it kind of i i was like i didn't i was 385 00:25:43,564 --> 00:25:46,544 in high school it's like i wasn't paying attention i was playing football like i wasn't paying attention 386 00:25:46,544 --> 00:25:50,144 to anything that happened in the economy market i knew nothing about nothing like literally nothing 387 00:25:50,144 --> 00:25:55,244 i knew football and sports and that was it um but when occupy wall street started happening it seemed 388 00:25:55,244 --> 00:26:00,204 like the way i think about it is like everybody's everybody's like kind of saying okay something's 389 00:26:00,204 --> 00:26:04,984 wrong here. It's like the right diagnosis. But then there's like two prescriptions. One, it seems 390 00:26:04,984 --> 00:26:09,604 to be like, you know, Bitcoin and, you know, libertarianism and freedom and capitalism and 391 00:26:09,604 --> 00:26:14,264 not crony capitalism, but real capitalism. And then the other one over here is kind of like 392 00:26:14,264 --> 00:26:18,904 socialist and communism. Those are like the two roads. What got you? You started heading down this 393 00:26:18,904 --> 00:26:23,744 road because you were really empathizing with that. But what got you back to like what got you 394 00:26:23,744 --> 00:26:27,844 to come back and kind of think, OK, maybe this isn't the solution? When did you hear about Bitcoin? 395 00:26:27,844 --> 00:26:31,264 like walk me through that whole process. Well, it took me a while. It really did, 396 00:26:31,344 --> 00:26:36,124 because you have to understand, I went off to college wide eyed, you know, believing in the 397 00:26:36,124 --> 00:26:40,524 American dream. And if I just work hard, I'll make everything happen. I was very determined 398 00:26:40,524 --> 00:26:43,144 and I was going to get the good grades and I was going to do the internships. 399 00:26:43,644 --> 00:26:49,724 And I spent two of the years of my undergrad studying in Italy and traveling a lot. And so I, 400 00:26:50,304 --> 00:26:54,504 at the time, it's so funny because I ended up becoming an investigative reporter after the 401 00:26:54,504 --> 00:26:59,404 great financial crisis before I graduated, before my parents went through that, all I wanted to do 402 00:26:59,404 --> 00:27:03,724 was do Anthony Bourdain's job. Like I just wanted to be a travel. I wanted to be Samantha Brown 403 00:27:03,724 --> 00:27:10,184 meets Anthony Bourdain. Like just let me travel and eat food everywhere. Like that's how I viewed 404 00:27:10,184 --> 00:27:15,784 the world. I was like, anything's possible. And then that event shaped my family. And then it 405 00:27:15,784 --> 00:27:20,324 totally changed my worldview. I went from feeling hope and positivity about the future. 406 00:27:20,324 --> 00:27:22,244 You talk about that in your book a lot, that idea of hope. 407 00:27:22,244 --> 00:27:25,184 Yeah, to feeling like, oh my gosh, like we're- 408 00:27:25,184 --> 00:27:26,164 Maybe this is all a lie. 409 00:27:26,344 --> 00:27:28,164 Yeah, like this system's rigged. 410 00:27:28,284 --> 00:27:32,164 The system is so unfair and they will steal from us when they need to. 411 00:27:32,284 --> 00:27:35,044 And so we need to create guardrails to prevent that. 412 00:27:35,164 --> 00:27:39,204 So I thought like so many people do today that the solution is more government. 413 00:27:39,204 --> 00:27:44,164 Like for a government to come in and prevent these greedy institutions from taking from us. 414 00:27:44,464 --> 00:27:44,564 Yeah. 415 00:27:44,884 --> 00:27:49,464 I didn't realize that these institutions, the banks are married to the government. 416 00:27:49,644 --> 00:27:49,784 Yeah. 417 00:27:50,184 --> 00:27:51,044 And that they're literally- 418 00:27:51,044 --> 00:27:51,864 It's like this cronyism. 419 00:27:51,864 --> 00:27:54,244 That's what it is. It's crony capitalism. That's happening. 420 00:27:54,464 --> 00:28:03,264 And I didn't, like, I never was taught, oh, you know, this is the history of money and here's why the money supply matters and this is what inflation actually is and this is why prices go up. 421 00:28:03,344 --> 00:28:06,464 I never, I was a good student, but I never learned any of that. 422 00:28:06,964 --> 00:28:07,604 And so here I am. 423 00:28:07,604 --> 00:28:13,084 Well, they don't teach you that for a reason because, you know, the whole scheme depends on you staying within the lines of the system. 424 00:28:13,564 --> 00:28:16,704 You know, you're kind of, it's like the line in your book. 425 00:28:16,704 --> 00:28:17,884 I loved this line. 426 00:28:17,884 --> 00:28:22,764 And it was like the two fish are going and the older fish comes by and he goes, how's 427 00:28:22,764 --> 00:28:23,484 the water, boys? 428 00:28:23,944 --> 00:28:26,344 And the fish go on and say, what the fuck is water? 429 00:28:27,224 --> 00:28:28,684 Well, it's what the hell is water? 430 00:28:28,684 --> 00:28:28,844 Yeah. 431 00:28:28,924 --> 00:28:29,104 Yeah. 432 00:28:29,184 --> 00:28:32,744 So like that's what most people you deal with are like in this fishbowl and you don't realize, 433 00:28:32,884 --> 00:28:33,344 oh my God. 434 00:28:33,384 --> 00:28:36,564 It's like that matrix where it's like, here's the red pill, here's the blue pill, right? 435 00:28:36,604 --> 00:28:37,144 It's kind of like. 436 00:28:37,664 --> 00:28:42,404 Well, so that, I mean, that was essentially, I felt like I wanted to hold the powerful accountable, 437 00:28:42,404 --> 00:28:47,864 but I came at it from an angle of there's corruption and we need to regulate it. 438 00:28:47,884 --> 00:28:53,384 or we need a good actor to come in and redistribute the wealth and make it more fair so that the 439 00:28:53,384 --> 00:29:01,164 working class has a shot. So I was reporting a lot during that time. And I felt like I was meeting a 440 00:29:01,164 --> 00:29:05,584 lot of people that were very similar to my family, just like struggling. And they were noticing that 441 00:29:05,584 --> 00:29:10,044 the cost of living was going up. And the people that were in power in whatever city I was reporting 442 00:29:10,044 --> 00:29:15,184 in, they seemed to always, you know, curry favors with the right people and they weren't able to 443 00:29:15,184 --> 00:29:21,544 enrich themselves, but really at the expense of the working person that was doing everything right. 444 00:29:21,744 --> 00:29:27,664 And so I thought, this is so unfair. And I started to become not a negative person, 445 00:29:27,684 --> 00:29:32,084 because I feel like I've always been a very hopeful, positive person, but I felt scared 446 00:29:32,084 --> 00:29:37,524 about the future. I felt like maybe I won't achieve my dream of having a home and being 447 00:29:37,524 --> 00:29:43,584 able to take care of my family. Maybe I'm going to be working until I'm dead, basically. And when 448 00:29:43,584 --> 00:29:48,104 do I stop to be able to have a family? Because I just, I felt like it was constantly a grind. 449 00:29:48,204 --> 00:29:54,644 I can never save. And I didn't know to invest. I didn't know to be opening up a brokerage account 450 00:29:54,644 --> 00:29:59,224 and like putting my money into stocks or trying to, you know, take out a mortgage. I just, 451 00:29:59,424 --> 00:30:06,484 you, you aren't taught these things. And so when I, I was, I was exposed to Bitcoin in 2017 for the 452 00:30:06,484 --> 00:30:10,504 first time and I dismissed it. Like so many people, I was like, you know what? I'm just going to take 453 00:30:10,504 --> 00:30:15,224 a flyer on this as a lottery ticket. Like maybe these crazy folks that are telling me about it 454 00:30:15,224 --> 00:30:20,984 are right. I'll put a little bit of money in, but I'm probably going to lose it. And it wasn't until 455 00:30:20,984 --> 00:30:25,444 I started reading Bitcoin books and listening to Bitcoin podcasts that my life changed. And I think 456 00:30:25,444 --> 00:30:29,764 that's one of the reasons why I'm doing what I'm doing and why I wrote my own book, because a 457 00:30:29,764 --> 00:30:35,444 Bitcoin book changed my life. A Bitcoin show changed my life. I started to look at the world 458 00:30:35,444 --> 00:30:41,764 in a different way. And it ultimately led me to realizing what the actual problem is and realizing 459 00:30:41,764 --> 00:30:46,544 that there's this really hopeful path forward if we all embrace it. And so we have to tell the world 460 00:30:46,544 --> 00:30:52,564 about it. And so I'm very grateful to now be working in Bitcoin. Yeah, no, I mean, I am actually 461 00:30:52,564 --> 00:30:56,544 your book. I'm going to recommend to all the people. Like when I read the book, I was expecting, 462 00:30:57,404 --> 00:31:00,584 I mean, I didn't know what to expect. I just open up a Bitcoin book and I start reading like, 463 00:31:00,664 --> 00:31:04,664 you know what I mean? And when I open it up, I'm like, oh my God, this is like probably now my 464 00:31:04,664 --> 00:31:09,324 number one book for like people that are new to Bitcoin, which I thought was awesome because 465 00:31:09,324 --> 00:31:12,344 there's just so many books that are like, I usually recommend the Bitcoin standard and I 466 00:31:12,344 --> 00:31:15,724 love Larry's book. I give it to, you know, all the boomers, but just for the average person, 467 00:31:16,104 --> 00:31:19,944 like the ideas and concepts are so simplified and so good that it appeals to everybody, 468 00:31:20,044 --> 00:31:23,604 which is amazing. Thank you. Well, that was the goal. I hope that was the goal. Yeah. I really, 469 00:31:23,604 --> 00:31:28,484 I really appreciate that because I too have struggled with something. I love all the Bitcoin 470 00:31:28,484 --> 00:31:33,064 books that are out there and that I've read. And with each book that I read, I felt like there was 471 00:31:33,064 --> 00:31:37,204 some part of it or some theme or the way they told the story where I was like, oh my gosh, 472 00:31:37,244 --> 00:31:41,304 this part is so good. You know, like I love, they explain the technical component so great. 473 00:31:41,544 --> 00:31:46,484 They explain the monetary history so great. I wanted to kind of combine all of that and 474 00:31:46,484 --> 00:31:51,344 simplify it as much as possible for the average person so that someone in the mainstream world 475 00:31:51,344 --> 00:31:55,424 that comes from no finance background, no economics background, no computer science 476 00:31:55,424 --> 00:32:00,004 background, they could just pick it up and really start from the beginning and feel like they 477 00:32:00,004 --> 00:32:04,544 understand at least why Bitcoin is here and that they should take it a little bit more seriously. 478 00:32:04,684 --> 00:32:10,004 I feel like mine is a very good entry point before you read all of the other really critical 479 00:32:10,004 --> 00:32:16,544 Bitcoin books. It's just a really good, simple 101. Yeah, no, I think that you hit the nail on 480 00:32:16,544 --> 00:32:20,464 the head with that. It's super easy to absorb. And I had a couple of people read like the first 481 00:32:20,464 --> 00:32:25,884 or second chapter and they're like, oh my God, that made sense to me. Which was awesome. I have 482 00:32:25,884 --> 00:32:29,984 a lot of family members that are like, oh, you know, you know about all that Bitcoin stuff, 483 00:32:30,024 --> 00:32:34,544 but I don't understand any of it. Here, read this. Thank you. Well, you heard it here first. 484 00:32:34,964 --> 00:32:38,564 You actually also said something really interesting earlier, which was like, you know, 485 00:32:38,584 --> 00:32:41,864 you just took a flyer on Bitcoin and you're like, you probably saw the price go up. And that way, 486 00:32:41,884 --> 00:32:43,844 you were like, oh, what's happening here? Is that kind of what happened? 487 00:32:44,524 --> 00:32:49,284 Well, I got in when the price was like three or four thousand and I rode that thing up to 20,000 488 00:32:49,284 --> 00:32:54,964 and it crashed back down to three. So that was my first experience of the 2017 bull run. And 489 00:32:54,964 --> 00:33:00,344 I'm proud of myself for not selling. I mean, I was so confused though. I'm like, what is this thing? 490 00:33:00,564 --> 00:33:07,644 Am I crazy? Do I buy more? But you just, you don't know. But that volatility got you kind of 491 00:33:07,644 --> 00:33:11,784 like paying attention. Here's what's happening. It was kind of. Oh, for sure. For sure. And for 492 00:33:11,784 --> 00:33:15,904 many years, again, like I felt like I was intrigued by it and I thought it was interesting, 493 00:33:15,904 --> 00:33:21,584 but it wasn't until someone presented the history of money to me and inflation really is that I start, 494 00:33:21,584 --> 00:33:26,144 it started to click. And I was like, oh, this is a really big deal. It's really interesting. Yeah. 495 00:33:26,244 --> 00:33:31,484 Like this is a breakthrough. And this is exact, this represents the perfect kind of money that we 496 00:33:31,484 --> 00:33:39,244 need in order to have a more productive and abundant society. And so we, like this came 497 00:33:39,244 --> 00:33:43,144 at the perfect time, really. I mean, there's so many amazing things about Bitcoin where you kind 498 00:33:43,144 --> 00:33:48,784 of got to wonder, I mean, how did this come at a point where I really feel like we've reached an 499 00:33:48,784 --> 00:33:53,424 inflection. Like, I mean, if Bitcoin wasn't around, what would the solution be? I mean, 500 00:33:53,444 --> 00:33:56,244 would we all just be gold bugs and say, oh, we have to take a step back? 501 00:33:56,244 --> 00:34:01,124 I mean, yeah, gold failed for a reason, right? And Bitcoin tackled a lot of those failings, 502 00:34:01,224 --> 00:34:04,044 those short termings of gold. And I like gold. I think it's a good asset. But, you know, 503 00:34:04,044 --> 00:34:07,804 Bitcoin as money is superior, you know, has better characteristics and properties. 504 00:34:08,664 --> 00:34:13,004 I think it's interesting that like there's a quote that's like Bitcoin is the looks like a Ponzi 505 00:34:13,004 --> 00:34:16,644 scheme, but it's actually like it's like it looks like a Ponzi scheme, but it's actually the one of 506 00:34:16,644 --> 00:34:21,224 the most ingenious inventions of mankind. Yeah, it solves the Ponzi scheme, actually. 507 00:34:21,464 --> 00:34:25,564 I can't remember exactly what the quote is, but Bitcoin looks like a get rich quick scheme, 508 00:34:25,704 --> 00:34:30,444 but it's one of the most ingenious inventions of mankind in human history or something like that. 509 00:34:30,444 --> 00:34:34,964 Once you peel back the layers. What I find is interesting is that even I think Satoshi, 510 00:34:35,244 --> 00:34:40,484 like initially on the Bitcoin talk forums, he would talk about like the monetary supply and how 511 00:34:40,484 --> 00:34:44,724 the supply shock would affect the price. And that would bring in more people because that's like, 512 00:34:44,724 --> 00:34:46,604 because like, look, we can't pay for our marketing team. 513 00:34:46,604 --> 00:34:47,864 So this is the marketing event. 514 00:34:47,864 --> 00:34:48,964 So I think it's interesting. 515 00:34:48,964 --> 00:34:51,224 I know a lot of people that have just like, 516 00:34:51,224 --> 00:34:52,764 I just tell people get some exposure, 517 00:34:52,764 --> 00:34:54,264 like, you know, obviously don't, 518 00:34:54,264 --> 00:34:55,344 you don't have to put everything into it, 519 00:34:55,344 --> 00:34:56,344 but just get a little exposure. 520 00:34:56,344 --> 00:34:57,724 So then you'll naturally pay attention more. 521 00:34:57,724 --> 00:34:59,464 When you own something, you pay attention to it more 522 00:34:59,464 --> 00:35:12,336 and you see oh wow it went up 300 over two years or whatever people start paying attention And then you start learning more That the key right Get people to sustain that learning and education and learn more and more and more 523 00:35:12,976 --> 00:35:13,196 Yeah. 524 00:35:15,336 --> 00:35:15,776 Right. 525 00:35:17,236 --> 00:35:19,876 Nine more minutes because I know you have another podcast coming up. 526 00:35:20,816 --> 00:35:21,056 Yeah. 527 00:35:23,396 --> 00:35:24,596 I'm going to go to our second page. 528 00:35:24,596 --> 00:35:33,116 What do you think about all the political stuff that's happening today? There's a lot of 529 00:35:33,116 --> 00:35:39,056 polarization with the Trump administration. They just seized Maduro. There's 600,000 Bitcoin, 530 00:35:39,175 --> 00:35:43,256 supposedly. I don't know if the U.S. sees that or not. What are your thoughts on nation states 531 00:35:43,256 --> 00:35:47,996 adopting Bitcoin? I mean, there's so much happening. I feel like a year passes with 532 00:35:47,996 --> 00:35:54,516 every day of the news cycle. It's a lot to keep up with. I try to digest and share as much as I 533 00:35:54,516 --> 00:36:01,196 can in a neutral, constructive way on the news block. But it is a lot to process. I mean, 534 00:36:01,256 --> 00:36:06,356 one thing that I wish is that people would recognize that even if you do ascribe to one 535 00:36:06,356 --> 00:36:11,376 political party, it doesn't mean you have to agree with everything that they do. So I see a lot of 536 00:36:11,376 --> 00:36:16,216 hypocrisy on both sides, really, right? It's like, it's okay if my leader does it, but it's not if 537 00:36:16,216 --> 00:36:21,756 yours does it. And just a lot of shouting back and forth. And this is why I think something like 538 00:36:21,756 --> 00:36:27,816 Bitcoin is so important because it sees through some of these more superficial symptoms and it 539 00:36:27,816 --> 00:36:33,056 digs deeper to what the actual problem is, which is that our financial system is so broken and it 540 00:36:33,056 --> 00:36:37,036 offers a special advantage to those that are connected to it and those close to the money 541 00:36:37,036 --> 00:36:42,116 printer and the Cantillon effect. And everyone else is kind of fighting for scraps at this point. 542 00:36:42,236 --> 00:36:46,756 And so I think it breeds a natural sense of frustration, especially for young people who 543 00:36:46,756 --> 00:36:52,076 now demonize things like capitalism because they associate everything with corporate greed. 544 00:36:52,496 --> 00:36:52,916 Phonyism, really. 545 00:36:53,556 --> 00:36:53,816 Yeah. 546 00:36:53,856 --> 00:36:58,316 And they don't realize that we have not had a true and free market. 547 00:36:58,596 --> 00:36:58,756 Yeah. 548 00:36:58,836 --> 00:37:04,796 And I really thank Jeff Booth for helping clarify so much of that for me because I still, I 549 00:37:04,796 --> 00:37:10,316 mean, even in the last couple of years, I was like, well, America represents capitalism 550 00:37:10,316 --> 00:37:12,256 and that's why we should embrace it. 551 00:37:12,256 --> 00:37:19,576 but you can't have capitalism and a free market when you have centralization of the money supply, 552 00:37:19,696 --> 00:37:24,716 right? So like if you have a system with a central bank that controls the money and can 553 00:37:24,716 --> 00:37:31,196 expand the supply and issues the reserve currency, how can you have a truly free market? Because 554 00:37:31,196 --> 00:37:38,655 you're essentially creating a system of socialism for the banks. Well, the crazy part is that money 555 00:37:38,655 --> 00:37:41,236 is the most important good and asset in all of society. 556 00:37:41,576 --> 00:37:41,756 Yeah. 557 00:37:41,896 --> 00:37:43,736 And like we naturally accept that 558 00:37:43,736 --> 00:37:45,196 we don't have a communist board 559 00:37:45,196 --> 00:37:47,196 that sets the price of milk, 560 00:37:47,336 --> 00:37:48,276 sets the price of eggs, 561 00:37:48,356 --> 00:37:49,256 sets the price of anything. 562 00:37:49,616 --> 00:37:51,196 Yet for the most important good 563 00:37:51,196 --> 00:37:52,296 that funds everything else, 564 00:37:52,336 --> 00:37:52,996 that has everything to do, 565 00:37:53,396 --> 00:37:54,796 we accept a communist board 566 00:37:54,796 --> 00:37:55,836 that sets the price of money. 567 00:37:55,936 --> 00:37:56,196 Exactly. 568 00:37:56,256 --> 00:37:57,316 That to me is just absurd. 569 00:37:57,655 --> 00:37:57,876 Right. 570 00:37:57,996 --> 00:38:00,836 So of course you're going to get angry at capitalism. 571 00:38:01,216 --> 00:38:01,916 Of course you are 572 00:38:01,916 --> 00:38:04,876 because if you see the people at the very top, 573 00:38:05,896 --> 00:38:08,635 politicians becoming wealthier 574 00:38:08,635 --> 00:38:15,316 than, you know, like you would think that a brain surgeon has like a mansion, right? Not 575 00:38:15,316 --> 00:38:20,816 a Congress person that has like a property worth $40 million, but that's the reality. And we have 576 00:38:20,816 --> 00:38:27,096 bankers and people on wall street that have just made so, so, so much money. And everyone else is 577 00:38:27,096 --> 00:38:30,616 like, what about me? I can't afford my groceries. I can't afford to put my kid through school. 578 00:38:30,716 --> 00:38:34,536 So of course they think, well, if that's capitalism, I don't like that. And I want 579 00:38:34,536 --> 00:38:38,696 something different. And I think it's natural to just kind of say, well, socialism, socialism is 580 00:38:38,696 --> 00:38:42,396 that warm, fuzzy, we're going to take care of each other, right? We're going to take from the rich and 581 00:38:42,396 --> 00:38:48,096 redistribute. But the problem is that it does, it encroaches on freedoms that are very core to 582 00:38:48,096 --> 00:38:54,036 society. Freedoms like the ability to protect your right to private property. And that's one thing 583 00:38:54,036 --> 00:39:00,776 that I think everyone, that's why everyone should study history and study economics because we are 584 00:39:00,776 --> 00:39:05,916 moving into a direction where people literally are okay with the idea of not people not owning 585 00:39:05,916 --> 00:39:09,916 private property anymore. Like we'll all just have collective housing and collective work. 586 00:39:10,216 --> 00:39:15,396 No, no, no. That leads to literally revolution and death. Yeah. I mean, you're, uh, you know, 587 00:39:15,396 --> 00:39:19,976 your family comes from that and can expound on that, you know, and you've experienced, 588 00:39:20,016 --> 00:39:23,856 your family has experienced that. I think, I think Thomas Sowell has a great quote about this. It's 589 00:39:23,856 --> 00:39:28,276 like a lot of people look at policies based on their intention, not their outcome. And like, 590 00:39:28,276 --> 00:39:32,976 yet, while it sounds great in execution, it fails every time because it fundamentally 591 00:39:32,976 --> 00:39:37,155 misunderstands human nature. The second people are in power and have these positions, 592 00:39:37,696 --> 00:39:41,616 very more, I mean, not everybody's a bad person, but there's the gray area. And when you, 593 00:39:41,736 --> 00:39:44,616 when you're taking from a pot of money and you don't know who it's really affecting, 594 00:39:44,716 --> 00:39:47,936 I think this is part of the big problem with everything that's happening is all this grift 595 00:39:47,936 --> 00:39:52,336 that's occurring is that there's no like victim. It's, oh, it's the government you're stealing from. 596 00:39:52,396 --> 00:39:56,155 So you don't really understand that the government is funded by the people and it screws everybody 597 00:39:56,155 --> 00:40:00,356 equally. And there's no accountability. No accountability. Like these people continue to 598 00:40:00,356 --> 00:40:05,776 fail up even if they have destroyed the city that they preside, they end up getting an even bigger 599 00:40:05,776 --> 00:40:10,836 political role. And that's what's so crazy. And so again, I feel like we point the blame at the 600 00:40:10,836 --> 00:40:16,896 wrong things. And if people can assign greed to something like a corporation, how do you not 601 00:40:16,896 --> 00:40:22,736 convey that to, well, the government's basically a version of a public kind of corporation. It's 602 00:40:22,736 --> 00:40:27,536 filled with people that are inherently corruptible and also greedy. And you think that they're going 603 00:40:27,536 --> 00:40:30,816 to manage money. And they don't have a profit incentive. They have no profit incentive, 604 00:40:30,916 --> 00:40:35,216 at least a shareholder, at least somebody running a company. If they lose money, they get fired, 605 00:40:35,316 --> 00:40:39,276 right? The government is like, no, you get a promotion and you get more money if you fail. 606 00:40:39,675 --> 00:40:44,096 The incentive structure is so broken. I mean, you look at Minnesota is just like a microcosm of the 607 00:40:44,096 --> 00:40:48,716 whole United States, but the highlight is being shown on that now. And the level of the breadth of 608 00:40:48,716 --> 00:40:53,296 the corruption and fraud and theft that's occurring there is like, it's mind boggling. 609 00:40:53,796 --> 00:40:58,076 It's like, this guy's, we're living in two different realities. I mean, there's Nick Shirley's 610 00:40:58,076 --> 00:41:02,436 going around and showing 50 daycares that are each getting $3 million and nobody's in sight. I mean, 611 00:41:02,896 --> 00:41:08,675 that is insane. That's crazy. I know. Right? And it just blows my mind. 612 00:41:09,536 --> 00:41:16,116 Well, this is why I think Bitcoin is so important because it imposes a system where the incentives 613 00:41:16,116 --> 00:41:23,496 reward value and punish grift. It exposes grift and it keeps you more accountable. It introduces 614 00:41:23,496 --> 00:41:28,496 consequences. Consequences, yeah. So it's like with the current system that operates on fiat 615 00:41:28,496 --> 00:41:33,155 fraud. In a Bitcoin standard, a Bitcoin system, everything's on chain. You can see stuff. There 616 00:41:33,155 --> 00:41:38,655 is no way to filter off and to print a bunch of money to pay $700 billion to a bunch of fraudsters. 617 00:41:38,956 --> 00:41:44,716 Right. Well, and if you issue paper Bitcoin, that bubble will pop and you cannot get bailed out. 618 00:41:44,716 --> 00:41:57,576 Yeah, there's no bailout. Exactly. Which I think is a more realistic, you know, physics based, mathematical based, reality based way for the world to operate on that Bitcoin standard where there is consequences, there is accountability. 619 00:41:57,796 --> 00:41:58,155 Exactly. 620 00:41:58,396 --> 00:42:14,056 I think it's super interesting. Let me, I know we got to wrap this up here in a second, but let me ask you one more question and then you can give some advice to our listeners. But I wanted to ask you about, because you're on the board of Seminar Scientific too. What's that like? What's your responsibility as a board member? 621 00:42:14,056 --> 00:42:18,016 Well, so I won't have an active role anymore because the merger just went through. 622 00:42:18,116 --> 00:42:18,516 Really? 623 00:42:18,736 --> 00:42:19,496 It's really exciting. 624 00:42:19,716 --> 00:42:19,856 Yeah. 625 00:42:19,896 --> 00:42:25,155 So now they're going to be, I think, the 11th biggest treasury with over 12,000 Bitcoin. 626 00:42:25,416 --> 00:42:27,155 So they merged with Strive. 627 00:42:27,476 --> 00:42:27,696 Okay. 628 00:42:27,876 --> 00:42:28,076 Yeah. 629 00:42:28,136 --> 00:42:30,416 So I think people are really excited about that. 630 00:42:31,136 --> 00:42:40,175 Strive is a company that seems to be going also down the path of issuing these preferreds so that you have essentially like a savings account backed by Bitcoin. 631 00:42:40,236 --> 00:42:40,616 Interesting. 632 00:42:40,616 --> 00:42:48,416 These dividends that you can rely on, the digital credit that Michael Saylor introduced into the market, they are really embracing that with a product called SATA. 633 00:42:48,856 --> 00:42:55,996 And they have high hopes and big plans, so I'm excited for the team and very grateful that I got a chance to be a part of Semler. 634 00:42:56,496 --> 00:42:58,416 Eric Semler is someone that I really, really admire. 635 00:42:58,616 --> 00:43:02,736 I think that he makes his father proud who started the company. 636 00:43:02,996 --> 00:43:09,436 And it was once, not a lot of people know this, but it was actually like the best performing stock for like five years from 2016 to 2020. 637 00:43:09,436 --> 00:43:11,896 Yeah, it literally was like the number one stock. 638 00:43:11,996 --> 00:43:12,336 No way. 639 00:43:12,476 --> 00:43:14,036 It outperformed MicroStrategy and everything else. 640 00:43:14,216 --> 00:43:19,196 Because of what his father built in the medical device world. 641 00:43:20,016 --> 00:43:23,596 So yeah, there's a lot of hope that that will also translate. 642 00:43:23,796 --> 00:43:30,476 There's a lot of plans to keep that side of the business healthy as well because Vivek has a background in biotech. 643 00:43:30,696 --> 00:43:34,175 And Vivek, he was the person who started Strive. 644 00:43:34,316 --> 00:43:36,116 So I'm really excited to see what they do. 645 00:43:36,356 --> 00:43:37,216 Yeah, I'm excited. 646 00:43:37,216 --> 00:43:41,236 They've got a big board with some great folks on it, so I'm proud of them. 647 00:43:43,376 --> 00:43:44,776 I'll close you out with this question. 648 00:43:46,876 --> 00:43:50,356 You talk a lot about in your book about Bitcoin and restoring your sense of hope. 649 00:43:51,096 --> 00:43:59,276 When you fully started understanding Bitcoin, how did that affect your time preference, your thinking, and what advice do you have for the average person? 650 00:43:59,276 --> 00:44:13,976 Well, I went from feeling like a lot of people do today, which is that I was kind of living paycheck to paycheck, surviving, not knowing how I was going to afford the future, not knowing if I would be able to stop and build something like a family. 651 00:44:14,576 --> 00:44:18,996 And a lot of that started to go away when I learned about Bitcoin. 652 00:44:19,136 --> 00:44:22,956 I started to, instead of stress, feel a sense of motivation and hope. 653 00:44:23,416 --> 00:44:28,336 And that's, I think, a driving force that has led people to create and build amazing things. 654 00:44:28,336 --> 00:44:36,396 Like if you don't have hope, then I feel like your life is one where it's hard to get out of a sort of a negative feedback loop, right? 655 00:44:36,416 --> 00:44:38,436 You end up thinking, well, how am I going to survive? 656 00:44:38,675 --> 00:44:39,516 What am I going to do? 657 00:44:39,616 --> 00:44:46,116 And I think it brings out kind of these tense, angry qualities of any person if you don't have hope. 658 00:44:46,596 --> 00:44:47,736 And Bitcoin does the opposite. 659 00:44:47,896 --> 00:44:52,196 It fills you with a sense of responsibility, agency. 660 00:44:52,816 --> 00:44:54,516 Like you just want to learn everything. 661 00:44:54,716 --> 00:44:55,376 You want to contribute. 662 00:44:55,516 --> 00:44:56,276 You want to give back. 663 00:44:56,336 --> 00:44:57,296 You want to be of value. 664 00:44:57,296 --> 00:45:04,016 And so I think Bitcoin is something that represents really the best in us to be able to solve a problem. 665 00:45:04,436 --> 00:45:17,456 And to your point, like money is really the most important thing that we could possibly address because it's how we measure value and exchange value all over the world with one another based on our different backgrounds and what we can offer each other. 666 00:45:17,536 --> 00:45:19,216 And we need to be able to price it appropriately. 667 00:45:19,516 --> 00:45:23,436 We need to know what money, when you're borrowing it, should actually cost. 668 00:45:23,436 --> 00:45:26,416 Like what the free market should set the interest rate. 669 00:45:26,416 --> 00:45:29,876 And we should be able to compete with each other on a level playing field. 670 00:45:30,056 --> 00:45:31,616 And we haven't for so long. 671 00:45:31,856 --> 00:45:36,996 The United States has had a massive advantage compared to other countries being the global reserve currency. 672 00:45:37,296 --> 00:45:44,436 And then here, when you zoom in, the people that are issuing the money and the people that are closest to the money printer have benefited tremendously. 673 00:45:44,636 --> 00:45:47,456 So it's just a very lopsided system. 674 00:45:47,456 --> 00:45:56,056 One that has, it's been to the disadvantage of so many average people that are just trying to do their best and work and provide for their families. 675 00:45:56,056 --> 00:45:57,736 And so I want to level the playing field. 676 00:45:57,836 --> 00:45:58,816 I want to give people hope. 677 00:45:59,536 --> 00:46:00,576 Anyone can learn Bitcoin. 678 00:46:00,776 --> 00:46:05,175 I wrote Bitcoin is for everyone because I do think it is for anyone and everyone to embrace. 679 00:46:05,856 --> 00:46:09,416 And, you know, even if you don't understand it, just take it slow. 680 00:46:09,655 --> 00:46:10,296 Buy a little bit. 681 00:46:10,396 --> 00:46:10,896 Send it. 682 00:46:11,076 --> 00:46:17,396 You know, play around with it and get out there and, you know, watch the podcasts that are out there. 683 00:46:17,536 --> 00:46:17,716 Watch. 684 00:46:18,056 --> 00:46:18,936 You love books. 685 00:46:19,036 --> 00:46:19,456 Read a book. 686 00:46:19,516 --> 00:46:21,256 If you like podcasts, watch a podcast. 687 00:46:22,016 --> 00:46:25,016 There are so many ways to learn about Bitcoin and all of them are for free. 688 00:46:25,016 --> 00:46:25,876 So, yeah. 689 00:46:26,056 --> 00:46:28,116 This has been a fascinating conversation. 690 00:46:28,236 --> 00:46:29,016 I wish we had more time. 691 00:46:29,356 --> 00:46:29,816 Natalie Renaud. 692 00:46:29,956 --> 00:46:30,776 Yeah, thank you.