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You think it's just a malicious attack on Bitcoin?

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It's definitely a malicious attack at this point.

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The people that have basically taken control of the GitHub project are bad actors.

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They are not looking out for Bitcoin's interests.

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They have some ulterior motive.

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To me, it doesn't make any sense why you would be involved in a project

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if you were actively trying to sabotage it.

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For what reason?

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You can't sabotage a project unless you get involved in it.

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True.

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The immediate danger is the illegal data problem, which has been created by Core30,

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actively making it easier to spam and making it a supported use case.

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Bitcoin isn't intended to be a file sharing network.

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What is Bitcoin supposed to be?

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What is spam?

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Can you define spam?

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Anything that people have not consented to.

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When you run Bitcoin, you're running it for a specific purpose,

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and there's only one purpose that was there intended from the start that everyone has agreed to.

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Calling it censorship to keep Bitcoin what it's supposed to be and stop attacks is nonsense.

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The way Bitcoin works is that the nodes are the ones enforcing the rules.

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If you're not running a full node, you're not verifying that according to those rules they paid you.

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You think that they paid you when they haven't.

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If you're not enforcing the rules, nobody is.

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People need to actually choose to run a full node.

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A lot of people today don't even have a computer, they just have a phone.

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They're not going to have a full node on their phone at this point.

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Correct, then people were running full nodes on their phone.

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But it's only gotten harder and harder because the block size is such that the blockchain grows faster than the technology is.

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Keeping up with improving on processing that data.

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If we went down to what number would you be like really concerned about it?

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I'm really concerned about it already.

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I mean, it was 200,000 back in 2017.

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The highest it's been recently is 100,000.

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It wasn't really until COVID hit and the government started printing money like crazy

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that it became clear that if Bitcoin didn't work out, the economy is always not going to work out.

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You said that Bitcoin's odds of succeeding as a decentralized currency might be as low as 3% to 4%.

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Why are we in that much danger right now?

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The probability of success is low, but it's there.

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I'm working as hard as I can to get Bitcoin to meet that small probability.

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Down the rabbit hole.

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Cypherpunk.

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Welcome back to Cypherpunct, where we explore money's history, crypto's future, and Web3's

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role in advancing human rights and freedom and digital liberty.

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Today's guest is Luke Dash Jr., one of the longest tenured Bitcoin core developers,

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contributing since 2011. He is the creator and lead maintainer of Bitcoin Knotts, an alternative

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Bitcoin node implementation focused on decentralization, user sovereignty, and resisting

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protocol abuse. Luke is also the CTO and co-founder of Ocean, the Bitcoin mining pool designed to

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return block construction to individual miners and reduce systemic mining centralization. Luke

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played a critical role during the 2013 Bitcoin chain split, helping guide the network away from

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an unnecessary hard fork that could have permanently fractured Bitcoin. He has been described by peers,

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including Jack Dorsey as a guardian of Bitcoin and is known for his uncompromising defense of

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Bitcoin as decentralized, censorship-resistant sound money. Welcome to the show, my man.

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Thanks.

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So Luke, tell me about yourself. What did you do before Bitcoin? What was your early life like?

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How did you even get involved?

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Before Bitcoin, I kind of came to Bitcoin from the open source side. I've been involved in

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open source for a long time. I did some work on BitTorrent clients and other file sharing network

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stuff. Did some work in

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telephony systems.

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What do you think

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about the idea of open source

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projects versus closed source, like this idea

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of the cathedral versus the bazaar?

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Cathedral versus

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the bazaar is more about

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centralized versus decentralized

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development. As far

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as I'm concerned, closed source

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basically doesn't exist.

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Okay, that makes sense. Have you ever

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seen that

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I was looking at the other day because I was interested just to see how Bitcoin has evolved

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as an open source project. And there's like this really cool video that just shows all of the code

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commits. I think it was made like in 2017, like it ends in 2017, but like it shows from the beginning

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of the Bitcoin to 2017. And it just shows how the network evolves and it like has all these little

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dot points. It's really, it's really cool. And I saw your name on there a lot, like moving in,

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coming back, coming out. It was like really, really interesting to visualize the creation of

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like an open source project with all of these random people that are coming and some people

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coming three years later, some people coming seven years later, some people, you know, coming for one

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year and disappearing and then, you know, people coming in and out and back. It was just like,

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it was really interesting to visualize that. Do you, when you think about closed source projects,

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is there any positive reason to have a closed source project or would you say

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that all projects should be open source

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or it really depends on what you're trying to build.

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Everything should be open source.

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If you don't have the source code, how can you ever trust it?

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Okay, that makes sense.

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I think the counter argument from the closed source community would be,

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or people that have closed source stuff would be,

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we don't want someone to steal our code

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or we don't want someone to find a hack in the code

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or something along those lines.

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People who are trying to compromise programs

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can do it with or without the code.

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It's really just the defenders, the good actors,

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who are kind of put at a disadvantage by not having access to the code.

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Can you unpack that a little bit?

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The attackers are used to working with closed source things.

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They're used to looking at the low-level assembly code, the byte code,

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the way the CPU works with it, just in the closed source program.

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they don't i mean they gain probably a little bit of benefit from having source goods review

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but not nearly as much a benefit as the people who would find the vulnerability and fix it

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interesting yeah it's that the more eyeballs what was the there's a great quote i think it's by

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linus like with more eyeballs all bugs are shallow or something like that do you know what i'm talking

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about the quote no there's some there's some quote that i think linus torvalds uh said that

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was like with enough eyes all bugs are shallow or something like something to the extent of what

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you were describing right there um as far as all the projects you've worked on do you

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obviously bitcoin is your most passionate project that you've that you've seen what did it feel like

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when you discovered bitcoin did you instantly realize the significance of what bitcoin was or

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was it kind of like oh here's something interesting is it like similar to bittorin or other open

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source projects? Were you like, kind of,

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wow, this is amazing. Did you have that?

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No, actually, I

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saw Bitcoin as kind of just a

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nerdy experimental project

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to, you know,

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advance the ability to use non-decimal

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number systems with currency.

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It wasn't really until

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COVID hit and

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the government started printing money like

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crazy that it became clear that

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if we didn't,

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if Bitcoin didn't work out,

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the economy as a whole was

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not gonna work out we'll have some dark years ahead if we don't make interesting work i mean

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it was like i did a book series with larry lapard and we talked about his book the big print

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and like if you look at the data over you know the past century or whatever it just seems like

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every time there's an issue or problem the printers fire up and it just gets bigger and

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more adamant like more pronounced like i think with covid it was like 50 of all the dollars that

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have ever existed you know in 120 years they've made in like four months or something crazy yeah

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we went down a path we're not going to ever return a month to us dollar it's pretty much a guaranteed

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failure at this point it's just a matter of time matter of time so um obviously the the history of

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all fiat currencies have essentially ended in failure right i mean so i'm only through the need

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to avoid at this point which what you just said is you know it's not the it's not the exception

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it's literally the rule i mean the exception is a fiat currency that lasts for a very long period

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of time. Because the world reserve currency, at least for sure, has always changed hands. It's

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always been different as time goes on. And usually fiat currency failure is the product.

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Once you get humans in that loop that can kind of arbitrarily make decisions,

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especially if they don't have to bear the consequences of those decisions.

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The way I think about money printing is like it's like doing drugs. It's like you feel great

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right away, but then you get all the consequences a little bit later that are delayed,

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that are way worse than had you just not done drugs.

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I'll have to take your word for it.

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Well, I don't do drugs, but I'm just throwing it out there.

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I'm just throwing it out there as an analogy, right?

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Oh, man.

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So obviously you worked with Core for a very long time.

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What made you decide to start a separate implementation?

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And when did you decide that you couldn't work with Core anymore?

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I mean, can you talk about that a little bit?

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I mean, Bitcoin Nuts began pretty much the same time Bitcoin Core began.

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They've been peacefully coexisting in parallel for 15 years now or something like that.

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And to an extent, I still work with Core to the extent that the gatekeepers let me.

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The gatekeepers.

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so can like for our non like non-technical audience can you explain a little bit like how

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that how that how that would work like you can run us you're running knots at the same time but

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you're also you know pushing things to core as well you guys are kind of sharing ideas i mean

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just unpack that a little bit i'm not technical at all and most of our audience probably is not

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both bitcoin knots and core are based on the code that satoshi released way back when and so the the

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code bases are almost identical really.

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Nots usually rebases on and pulls in everything core does,

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every release usually.

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And so they remain very similar.

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The only difference is that not says usually more features,

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more fixes merged than core does.

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Interesting.

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Let's talk a little bit about the idea of,

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because I know this has been a big controversy,

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obviously with knots and core,

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The idea of using Bitcoin block space for non-monetary things, transactions that are non-monetary in nature.

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How do you, like, with somebody who's not technical, like my first thought was, oh, if somebody pays, they should just be able to put whatever they want on Bitcoin because the fee is the filter, right?

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That's like the way that I always thought.

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As I learned more, now I'm not so sure.

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As I watched a lot of debates play out,

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my mind's been changed a little bit on some of these issues.

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Satoshi, I mean, on the very first block he ever pushed through on the blockchain,

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there was non-financial information on there.

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I know there's different ways you can put information on chain.

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You can put it in the block header.

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You can put it actually in the transaction.

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Can you explain that a little bit in layman's terms for people?

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I mean, Bitcoin is not a storage system.

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It's not designed for that.

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It's not intended for that.

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It's only the last year or two that people have started trying to exploit it for that purpose.

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Satoshi's, the Genesis block, uses the Coinbase.

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Every block has 100 bytes that are reserved for the miners that can be put arbitrary, whatever.

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And it's 100 bytes a block that's like maybe a few kilobytes a year.

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But in the Genesis block, Satoshi used that specifically,

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one to make a political statement, obviously,

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but it also had the parallel purpose of proving that he did not pre-mine Bitcoin.

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That newspaper headline was the same day he launched the Bitcoin blockchain.

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Yeah.

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And so anyone could see that he had not mined for months other blocks based on this.

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It was proof of, it was kind of like proof of fair mining, a fair launch.

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Yeah, basically.

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Proof that there was no...

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pre-mining at all.

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Do you,

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this 100 bytes that's set aside

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for the miner that publishes,

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is it possible that,

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like, are, obviously most people

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are not putting non-financial information

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in there, or are they using that space

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to put non-financial information right now?

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It's usually used to identify

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who mines the block.

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The pools that find the block

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usually put the pool name in there.

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With Ocean, because the miners

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make their own blocks, they put other stuff in there.

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is it possible to sell that space to make extra revenue,

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a place to put information,

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or is that not a thing that occurs right now?

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Is it possible to sell?

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Yes.

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Is there a reasonable market for it?

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No.

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No?

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I mean, it's very limited space, very small,

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and there's really not much use for it.

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Historically, back years ago,

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the pool, the laggiest at the time,

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And like people who were mining on the pool could just suggest things to put in there and it would go in there.

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But nobody really cared even then.

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Yeah.

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Gotcha.

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And that was like, there was no cost for doing that.

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And people still didn't care to really do it.

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There was some movie quotes.

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Maybe some movie quotes.

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Okay.

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Where like, so now that little, that bit of space is reserved for the miner that mines the block to put information or a name, whatever they want to put there.

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Yeah.

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The problem really comes when people are putting different non-financial information inside the block space that's usually where all the transactions go.

239
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Am I understanding that correctly?

240
00:13:56,020 --> 00:14:00,000
I mean, the block space itself does not support arbitrary data.

241
00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:07,360
So to do this, they actually have to disguise their arbitrary data as transactions, which obviously it isn't.

242
00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:10,000
but they have to convert it into,

243
00:14:11,260 --> 00:14:14,220
make it look like it's a transfer from someone to another.

244
00:14:14,620 --> 00:14:15,460
They're really just,

245
00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:18,260
their intent of this is to take it later

246
00:14:18,260 --> 00:14:22,240
and then transform it back into whatever image or whatever.

247
00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:26,780
And so this is fundamentally an abuse of the system.

248
00:14:27,100 --> 00:14:31,580
And not only that, but it also makes the blockchain larger.

249
00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:36,340
The way SegWip, the changes in SegWip were made,

250
00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:40,080
The block size limit is effectively dynamic.

251
00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:45,700
If you have legitimate usage of the chain, it grows maybe two megabytes each block.

252
00:14:46,460 --> 00:14:52,960
But the way the spammers are exploiting it, they actually can push that up to like four megabytes in the extreme cases.

253
00:14:53,820 --> 00:14:54,520
Is that...

254
00:14:54,520 --> 00:15:02,100
It increases the load for people to run a full node and also at the same time displaces legitimate usage of the chain.

255
00:15:02,100 --> 00:15:12,080
And so we've seen a huge drop off of people actually using Bitcoin for transactions and also drop off of full nodes as well.

256
00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:18,060
Do you think that, like, I know correlation doesn't always imply causality.

257
00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:22,020
Like, do we think that that is the reason we've seen less transactions?

258
00:15:22,220 --> 00:15:29,960
Or is it just because Bitcoin seems like it's kind of been in this bearish market for the past couple of years where we haven't got as many people interested in learning about Bitcoin?

259
00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:31,380
I mean, I'm just throwing ideas out there.

260
00:15:31,380 --> 00:15:33,240
I don't know for sure what the right answer is.

261
00:15:33,300 --> 00:15:36,200
I'm just kind of positing a theoretical question.

262
00:15:36,940 --> 00:15:41,480
If you just say hypothetically you wanted to accept Bitcoin,

263
00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:48,260
if people can't send you Bitcoins, what's the point?

264
00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:48,980
Yeah.

265
00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:55,360
The fact is the spam has been making it impractical until recently

266
00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:57,900
to even send Bitcoin so people don't even try.

267
00:15:57,900 --> 00:16:05,980
as far as the megabytes go you mentioned that with segwit potentially blocks could be up to

268
00:16:05,980 --> 00:16:10,140
four megabytes if non-financial information is included in the block is that what you're saying

269
00:16:10,140 --> 00:16:16,700
correct yeah with because i mean i run nodes for different protocols and projects and bitcoin is

270
00:16:16,700 --> 00:16:21,880
the lightest node that i run it's like i can run i still i think i'm still running my node on like a

271
00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:27,620
two terabyte drive that i bought like eight years ago um so when we talk about making it easy for

272
00:16:27,620 --> 00:16:34,540
people to run a node. Are you worried that if we go to four megabyte blocks that we wouldn't

273
00:16:34,540 --> 00:16:39,360
outpace something like Crider's Law that talks about, you know, how storage space can scale over

274
00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:43,740
time? Or is that like a legitimate concern for you? Or do you think that it's just, it would make

275
00:16:43,740 --> 00:16:47,960
it maybe not as easy for people in several countries? Or like, what's your... It's not the

276
00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:52,600
storage that's the hard part. It's getting the node synchronized and actually processing and

277
00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:53,660
verifying all the data.

278
00:16:54,720 --> 00:17:01,120
And it's been, it was proven back in 2016, 2017,

279
00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:04,620
that the network can't actually sustain

280
00:17:04,620 --> 00:17:08,500
more than about 300 kilobytes of transactions per block.

281
00:17:08,980 --> 00:17:13,260
And despite that, SegWit increased the block size

282
00:17:13,260 --> 00:17:16,080
as a kind of compromise with the people

283
00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:17,720
that eventually left to make big cash.

284
00:17:18,220 --> 00:17:20,260
But we've seen since that point,

285
00:17:20,260 --> 00:17:23,580
the full node count has mostly dropped off.

286
00:17:24,420 --> 00:17:27,540
We've seen the negative effects that it's had in practice,

287
00:17:27,540 --> 00:17:29,920
so there's really no doubt in my mind there.

288
00:17:30,500 --> 00:17:31,320
So a couple of questions.

289
00:17:31,580 --> 00:17:33,080
You said 300 kilobytes.

290
00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:36,000
Is that...

291
00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:37,900
I'm confused by that.

292
00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:41,260
I guess my understanding is

293
00:17:41,260 --> 00:17:43,120
if I'm doing a new node,

294
00:17:43,120 --> 00:17:46,760
it takes a day to get it to synchronize.

295
00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:49,480
But after it's synchronized, it's fine.

296
00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:51,600
is that what you're talking about here

297
00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:54,180
when you say how long it takes to synchronize?

298
00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:56,100
But then once it's caught up,

299
00:17:56,340 --> 00:17:58,020
it just runs smooth, at least for me.

300
00:17:58,040 --> 00:17:59,900
It takes a day if you're on a beefy machine, maybe,

301
00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:01,860
but a lot of people don't have that.

302
00:18:01,860 --> 00:18:03,900
A lot of people, unfortunately,

303
00:18:04,060 --> 00:18:05,120
aren't willing to wait a day.

304
00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:06,500
Yeah, okay, I see what you're saying.

305
00:18:06,540 --> 00:18:08,220
They're not willing to wait to synchronize a node.

306
00:18:08,420 --> 00:18:10,680
It's not enough that it's technically possible

307
00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:12,180
for people to run a full node.

308
00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:14,640
People need to actually choose to run a full node.

309
00:18:14,980 --> 00:18:16,800
A lot of people today don't even have a computer.

310
00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:17,700
They just have a phone.

311
00:18:17,700 --> 00:18:21,240
they're not going to have a full node on their phone at this point

312
00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:23,960
back in 2013, 2012

313
00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:26,340
that was actually something that you could do

314
00:18:26,340 --> 00:18:27,960
you could run a full node on a phone, really?

315
00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:31,100
I think I have a Raspberry Pi out there that I use

316
00:18:31,100 --> 00:18:34,560
back then people were running full nodes on their phone

317
00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:37,340
but it's only gotten harder and harder

318
00:18:37,340 --> 00:18:40,200
because the block size is such that

319
00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:42,900
the blockchain grows faster than the technology is

320
00:18:42,900 --> 00:18:46,320
keeping up with improving on processing that data

321
00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:56,730
okay that an interesting because a mega one megabyte per block for example you multiply that that 144 megabytes a day

322
00:18:57,030 --> 00:18:59,030
It's 365 days a year.

323
00:18:59,770 --> 00:19:02,090
That's actually growing at a tremendous rate.

324
00:19:04,230 --> 00:19:10,030
And the CPUs, the disks only improve so much per year.

325
00:19:10,190 --> 00:19:12,850
And that's like, hopefully it's a 17% improvement

326
00:19:12,850 --> 00:19:14,270
on the technology side.

327
00:19:14,270 --> 00:19:16,510
Because I was actually researching this a little bit,

328
00:19:16,510 --> 00:19:17,890
looking into something called Crider's Law

329
00:19:17,890 --> 00:19:22,070
that was talking about how storage space was improving.

330
00:19:22,330 --> 00:19:24,550
And it seemed like it was, from my initial research,

331
00:19:24,630 --> 00:19:27,710
that it was greatly outpacing the growth of the Bitcoin blockchain.

332
00:19:28,530 --> 00:19:31,970
It's not the storage space that is the problem at the bottom.

333
00:19:32,090 --> 00:19:33,410
It's the storage speed.

334
00:19:33,750 --> 00:19:34,470
Storage speed.

335
00:19:34,470 --> 00:19:37,230
And that's synchronizing that full,

336
00:19:37,330 --> 00:19:41,010
though that will take 17 hours or 16 hours or however it is,

337
00:19:41,330 --> 00:19:42,330
depending on what you're using.

338
00:19:42,770 --> 00:19:44,850
I think if you're using an SS,

339
00:19:44,850 --> 00:19:49,350
I know there's different, again, I'm not a super savvy hardware specialist.

340
00:19:49,490 --> 00:19:52,470
I think I'm using an SSD for my node, which is older technology.

341
00:19:52,910 --> 00:19:56,190
Now they've got these two drives and these things that are, you know,

342
00:19:56,630 --> 00:19:58,750
so my computers have this little drive that's this big,

343
00:19:58,790 --> 00:20:01,670
and it's like three terabytes or five terabytes or whatever, two terabytes.

344
00:20:02,130 --> 00:20:04,290
And that thing, like, that thing, man, that thing goes fast.

345
00:20:04,570 --> 00:20:08,110
The node will synchronize in like 30 minutes or an hour with that, I feel like.

346
00:20:08,150 --> 00:20:13,170
There's definitely improvement, but the blockchain growth has done so much damage already

347
00:20:13,170 --> 00:20:14,970
that we have a long way to catch up.

348
00:20:15,070 --> 00:20:16,530
We'll probably start catching up

349
00:20:16,530 --> 00:20:20,430
probably within the next decade at some point,

350
00:20:20,610 --> 00:20:22,190
but only slowly.

351
00:20:22,790 --> 00:20:24,910
So we want people to be able to synchronize that node.

352
00:20:25,130 --> 00:20:28,290
Your thought is much quicker than hours or days.

353
00:20:28,630 --> 00:20:29,830
We want that to happen faster

354
00:20:29,830 --> 00:20:31,290
to encourage more people to run a node.

355
00:20:31,670 --> 00:20:33,210
Is there a point of diminishing returns

356
00:20:33,210 --> 00:20:34,170
for people running nodes?

357
00:20:34,870 --> 00:20:36,990
Is there a number in your mind

358
00:20:36,990 --> 00:20:39,590
that mathematically, game theoretically,

359
00:20:39,590 --> 00:20:40,450
we want to hit?

360
00:20:40,450 --> 00:20:53,930
Well, for the network to be secure, because we don't have a centralized entity saying this is how it is, the way Bitcoin works is that the nodes are the ones enforcing the rules.

361
00:20:54,750 --> 00:21:05,330
And so every time someone pays you with Bitcoins, you are looking at their payment, does it confirm in the valid blockchain, and giving them a product or a service.

362
00:21:05,330 --> 00:21:08,170
and so if you're not running a full node

363
00:21:08,170 --> 00:21:10,350
you're not actually verifying

364
00:21:10,350 --> 00:21:12,150
the rules, you're not verifying that according

365
00:21:12,150 --> 00:21:13,570
to those rules they paid you

366
00:21:13,570 --> 00:21:16,090
they could just be making it, you think

367
00:21:16,090 --> 00:21:17,650
that they paid you when they haven't

368
00:21:17,650 --> 00:21:20,050
and so if you're not enforcing the rules

369
00:21:20,050 --> 00:21:20,870
nobody is

370
00:21:20,870 --> 00:21:23,130
and so therefore

371
00:21:23,130 --> 00:21:25,870
usually I would say

372
00:21:25,870 --> 00:21:28,130
85% of the network is where you want to be

373
00:21:28,130 --> 00:21:29,990
with a safe number of full nodes

374
00:21:29,990 --> 00:21:31,970
weighed by, you know, some businesses

375
00:21:31,970 --> 00:21:34,190
do more transactions than other businesses

376
00:21:34,190 --> 00:21:34,630
but

377
00:21:34,630 --> 00:21:45,790
If you had a 50-50 split, you could very well have half the economy following an invalid chain where there's been inflation or whatever, the other half of the economy following the valid chain.

378
00:21:46,230 --> 00:21:49,550
What happens if the valid chain following the economy goes to sleep?

379
00:21:50,470 --> 00:21:53,310
You got eight hours on this invalid chain that everyone's following.

380
00:21:54,670 --> 00:21:55,230
Interesting.

381
00:21:55,230 --> 00:22:07,470
And so globally, you need to have enough lead for the valid chain verification to stay ahead of any potential invalid chain that might be mined.

382
00:22:11,750 --> 00:22:12,890
Interesting topics.

383
00:22:13,250 --> 00:22:15,490
My mind's going down all these rabbit holes right now.

384
00:22:17,250 --> 00:22:21,050
This is like war gaming, cryptographically.

385
00:22:21,050 --> 00:22:26,150
but cryptography only comes into play

386
00:22:26,150 --> 00:22:28,610
if people are actually running the checks

387
00:22:28,610 --> 00:22:28,870
yeah

388
00:22:28,870 --> 00:22:29,910
I mean

389
00:22:29,910 --> 00:22:30,850
because I know now

390
00:22:30,850 --> 00:22:33,470
you know a lot of people just use

391
00:22:33,470 --> 00:22:34,390
whatever

392
00:22:34,390 --> 00:22:36,530
hot water on their phone

393
00:22:36,530 --> 00:22:37,510
it's obviously connected

394
00:22:37,510 --> 00:22:39,390
to a node that they're not running

395
00:22:39,390 --> 00:22:39,790
right

396
00:22:39,790 --> 00:22:40,550
most of the time

397
00:22:40,550 --> 00:22:42,510
most people aren't as technical savvy

398
00:22:42,510 --> 00:22:44,690
technically savvy enough to run

399
00:22:44,690 --> 00:22:45,310
their nodes

400
00:22:45,310 --> 00:22:46,730
that I know that are using Bitcoin

401
00:22:46,730 --> 00:22:47,510
on a daily basis

402
00:22:47,510 --> 00:22:50,710
and that's a big problem for Bitcoins

403
00:22:50,710 --> 00:22:51,370
security.

404
00:22:52,470 --> 00:22:53,730
What is that?

405
00:22:53,830 --> 00:22:55,090
I mean, the thing is too, though,

406
00:22:55,150 --> 00:22:55,830
like if you are,

407
00:22:56,630 --> 00:22:59,130
if you're trusting like a Coinbase

408
00:22:59,130 --> 00:23:00,370
or trusting a, you know,

409
00:23:00,430 --> 00:23:01,870
third party to run that node,

410
00:23:02,070 --> 00:23:05,970
I guess if they break that credibility,

411
00:23:06,750 --> 00:23:08,190
something or get hacked

412
00:23:08,190 --> 00:23:09,330
or there's a problem or whatever,

413
00:23:09,470 --> 00:23:11,010
then they'll forever lose that credibility.

414
00:23:11,270 --> 00:23:13,270
Is there any merit to that as a...

415
00:23:13,270 --> 00:23:14,190
Meta if you have.

416
00:23:14,190 --> 00:23:15,810
As a kind of like a gatekeeping

417
00:23:15,810 --> 00:23:17,650
to make sure people are running honestly.

418
00:23:18,090 --> 00:23:20,070
Kind of like how when the Silk Road

419
00:23:20,070 --> 00:23:20,570
kind of came out,

420
00:23:20,570 --> 00:23:23,970
everybody there was like a rating system right like nobody really knew each other there was no

421
00:23:23,970 --> 00:23:29,650
way to like verify or get your money back or anything but the ratings were the the social

422
00:23:29,650 --> 00:23:35,530
consensus was based off of the ratings if there's a niche that's relying on one of these trusted

423
00:23:35,530 --> 00:23:42,070
entities yes but if it's suddenly the entire economy is the entire economy going to give up

424
00:23:42,070 --> 00:23:49,450
the last day of their income to enforce the rules or are they going to say no we need that income

425
00:23:49,450 --> 00:23:54,970
We're going to stick it to the invalid chain and just delete the inflation or whatever.

426
00:23:56,030 --> 00:24:03,050
Because at that point, you might get back to a chain that has the properties you want.

427
00:24:03,370 --> 00:24:08,150
But now everybody who was running full note is screwed because they would not have followed that chain.

428
00:24:08,150 --> 00:24:20,490
And you eventually end up back to the point where you just, miners become, and the miners and the exchanges essentially become fed without any kind of accountability to anyone.

429
00:24:23,890 --> 00:24:28,950
I know a while ago, you actually had put JPEGs on the blockchain.

430
00:24:29,310 --> 00:24:31,150
Like, what changed your mind on all of this?

431
00:24:31,430 --> 00:24:32,250
That's not true at all.

432
00:24:32,370 --> 00:24:32,910
Oh, it's not true?

433
00:24:33,110 --> 00:24:33,290
No.

434
00:24:33,670 --> 00:24:35,150
Tell me what happened.

435
00:24:35,910 --> 00:24:37,310
I don't know what you're referring to.

436
00:24:37,310 --> 00:24:41,950
someone said that you had put JPEGs on the blockchain before and then someone's lying

437
00:24:41,950 --> 00:24:49,150
someone's lying that's what uh I thought you had just like changed your mind like you put

438
00:24:49,150 --> 00:24:53,310
Jesus JPEGs or something on the blockchain and then later on you're like no this is wrong no

439
00:24:53,310 --> 00:24:58,710
that didn't happen no maybe I was just a I read that somewhere but maybe it was just fake fud or

440
00:24:58,710 --> 00:24:58,970
whatever.

441
00:25:04,150 --> 00:25:07,150
I think you've said that Bitcoin's odds of succeeding as a decentralized

442
00:25:07,150 --> 00:25:09,010
currency might be as low as 3% to 4%.

443
00:25:09,010 --> 00:25:11,250
Why are we in that much danger right now?

444
00:25:11,270 --> 00:25:15,130
Is that just hyperbolic talk or trying to get people to focus on an issue?

445
00:25:15,490 --> 00:25:18,910
Like you said, people who are using Bitcoin are using a phone wallet and

446
00:25:18,910 --> 00:25:20,390
probably not using their own phone note.

447
00:25:20,390 --> 00:25:24,390
We're already in a situation where Bitcoin is left insecure to a large

448
00:25:24,390 --> 00:25:24,810
extent.

449
00:25:26,390 --> 00:25:26,430
Yeah.

450
00:25:28,710 --> 00:25:34,430
And somehow we need to get back to that point where people are using full nodes if we want Bitcoin to succeed.

451
00:25:34,610 --> 00:25:36,570
And that's definitely an uphill battle.

452
00:25:37,050 --> 00:25:37,870
Yeah, no, for sure.

453
00:25:38,230 --> 00:25:38,390
Sure.

454
00:25:39,050 --> 00:25:50,450
I think that entities, I mean, the good part is the entities that do run the nodes, they have a huge incentive to make sure that those are running correctly, following the chain and doing it.

455
00:25:50,790 --> 00:25:51,270
Do that.

456
00:25:51,830 --> 00:25:54,830
I think they do because of just for many reasons.

457
00:25:55,450 --> 00:25:57,850
Obviously, social credibility, business credibility.

458
00:25:57,850 --> 00:26:00,570
if you're operating and you care about Bitcoin,

459
00:26:00,770 --> 00:26:02,450
if you're using Bitcoin, if you're promoting Bitcoin,

460
00:26:02,550 --> 00:26:03,390
if you're a Bitcoin company,

461
00:26:03,910 --> 00:26:06,290
if Bitcoin fails and it's your fault,

462
00:26:06,490 --> 00:26:07,950
you're basically kicking it.

463
00:26:08,150 --> 00:26:09,190
You're shooting yourself in the foot.

464
00:26:09,690 --> 00:26:12,510
Unless you have to gain more from Bitcoin's failure

465
00:26:12,510 --> 00:26:14,030
because you're invested in scam coin.

466
00:26:15,930 --> 00:26:18,290
I feel like you can do both.

467
00:26:18,390 --> 00:26:19,370
You can care a lot about Bitcoin

468
00:26:19,370 --> 00:26:22,330
and still be involved in other coins or projects or whatever.

469
00:26:22,990 --> 00:26:25,030
I don't think they have to be mutually exclusive.

470
00:26:25,030 --> 00:26:46,170
Maybe. I'm just thinking back to 2017. You had, at the time, pretty much most of the major exchanges signing on to the New York agreement, planning to change Bitcoin without any kind of community support for this. And if people were not running full nodes, that can very well happen.

471
00:26:46,170 --> 00:26:47,950
and the only reason

472
00:26:47,950 --> 00:26:48,950
that is the beautiful part though

473
00:26:48,950 --> 00:26:49,710
about Bitcoin though

474
00:26:49,710 --> 00:26:50,990
is like those entities

475
00:26:50,990 --> 00:26:51,950
if they're running one node

476
00:26:51,950 --> 00:26:52,650
they only have one

477
00:26:52,650 --> 00:26:53,930
like it might be an important node

478
00:26:53,930 --> 00:26:54,930
but they only have one vote

479
00:26:54,930 --> 00:26:56,330
so like all the other people

480
00:26:56,330 --> 00:26:57,330
can basically

481
00:26:57,330 --> 00:26:59,010
use their nodes as a voter right

482
00:26:59,010 --> 00:27:00,730
only if they have a full node themselves

483
00:27:00,730 --> 00:27:03,130
if they're trusting someone else's full node

484
00:27:03,130 --> 00:27:03,730
then the other person

485
00:27:03,730 --> 00:27:05,390
no I see what you're saying

486
00:27:05,390 --> 00:27:06,250
but what I'm saying is like

487
00:27:06,250 --> 00:27:08,130
yeah there's say this huge pool running

488
00:27:08,130 --> 00:27:09,270
you know a node

489
00:27:09,270 --> 00:27:10,630
and then there's Coinbase running a node

490
00:27:10,630 --> 00:27:12,590
and then Yumi and Paul each have a node

491
00:27:12,590 --> 00:27:14,330
our full node votes

492
00:27:14,330 --> 00:27:16,030
counts just as much as Coinbase's node

493
00:27:16,030 --> 00:27:19,230
No, we have very little economic influence individually.

494
00:27:19,490 --> 00:27:21,470
How often do people pay you with Bitcoins?

495
00:27:22,410 --> 00:27:23,830
Not every day, right?

496
00:27:24,750 --> 00:27:25,590
No, not every day.

497
00:27:25,830 --> 00:27:26,730
But Coinbase does.

498
00:27:26,910 --> 00:27:31,870
But our node still has a vote because we still have to do consensus, right?

499
00:27:32,170 --> 00:27:34,730
Only to the extent that you're accepting payments with Bitcoin

500
00:27:34,730 --> 00:27:36,590
and using your full node to verify it.

501
00:27:37,110 --> 00:27:37,310
Okay.

502
00:27:37,450 --> 00:27:42,670
And these centralized exchanges do a lot more of that than most individuals.

503
00:27:43,550 --> 00:27:43,870
Okay.

504
00:27:45,010 --> 00:27:45,450
Interesting.

505
00:27:45,450 --> 00:27:45,590
Interesting.

506
00:27:46,030 --> 00:27:56,110
And so if they were willing to try to change the protocol back in 2017 when there were still enough full nodes to say, no, we're not doing this.

507
00:27:57,130 --> 00:28:07,390
If people stop running full nodes altogether as we're trending toward and they can get away with it, why wouldn't they?

508
00:28:08,050 --> 00:28:13,310
So are you saying that we've gone down to less full nodes since 2017 to today or have we gone up?

509
00:28:13,310 --> 00:28:14,290
I feel like we have to.

510
00:28:14,610 --> 00:28:15,370
2017 was our biggest.

511
00:28:16,030 --> 00:28:17,390
Really? We have gone up.

512
00:28:17,590 --> 00:28:19,390
Okay, let's see here.

513
00:28:19,470 --> 00:28:22,670
So it says the number of Bitcoin nodes has not gone down overall since 2017.

514
00:28:22,850 --> 00:28:24,750
In fact, they've shown periods of increasing fluctuation.

515
00:28:25,270 --> 00:28:27,530
But key metrics indicate growth and stability in recent years,

516
00:28:27,590 --> 00:28:28,970
depending on the type of node counted.

517
00:28:29,470 --> 00:28:32,810
There are two main ways Bitcoin node counts are tracked,

518
00:28:32,810 --> 00:28:33,890
and they measure different things.

519
00:28:34,390 --> 00:28:37,390
Reachable slash listening nodes, publicly connectable full nodes,

520
00:28:37,570 --> 00:28:40,610
often tracked by bitnodes.io, and coin.dance.

521
00:28:40,670 --> 00:28:43,670
These are the ones that accept incoming connections and help relay data.

522
00:28:43,670 --> 00:28:46,970
That is the most commonly cited visible network metric.

523
00:28:47,630 --> 00:28:54,070
In late 2017, during the peak bull run, around 20K, reachable nodes peaked at around 12,000 to 12,500.

524
00:28:54,590 --> 00:28:57,410
They dipped in 1819 down to 9,000.

525
00:28:57,790 --> 00:29:04,350
By 2021, they hit new all-time highs above 13,000, 13,374 reported in July 2021.

526
00:29:05,070 --> 00:29:11,450
More recent data up through 25 and 26 shows reachable nodes typically in the 10 to 15,000 range

527
00:29:11,450 --> 00:29:16,330
with ongoing fluctuations, but no sustained long-term decline below 2017 levels.

528
00:29:17,370 --> 00:29:18,190
What do you think about that?

529
00:29:19,030 --> 00:29:19,910
Not accurate.

530
00:29:20,210 --> 00:29:20,750
Not accurate?

531
00:29:21,370 --> 00:29:24,470
The 2017 peak was over 200,000 nodes.

532
00:29:24,870 --> 00:29:29,310
Okay, so total full nodes, including non-listening, unreachable private nodes

533
00:29:29,310 --> 00:29:33,190
that still fully validate but don't accept inbound connections.

534
00:29:33,510 --> 00:29:37,090
These are harder to count precisely, but are estimated higher,

535
00:29:37,210 --> 00:29:39,550
often via crawlers like Luke Dash Jr.'s.

536
00:29:39,550 --> 00:29:39,950
There you go.

537
00:29:39,950 --> 00:29:45,210
The estimates around 2017-2018 peaked over 200,000 total nodes at one point.

538
00:29:45,630 --> 00:29:51,190
There was a notable decline reported in 2019-2020, dropping below 47,000 in some estimates.

539
00:29:51,910 --> 00:29:56,810
And then by 2023 and later, total validating nodes were estimated closer to 50,000 to 100,000 plus,

540
00:29:57,270 --> 00:30:00,530
with some community figures suggesting even higher for private unreachable ones.

541
00:30:01,570 --> 00:30:05,010
Okay, so what is the difference between...

542
00:30:05,010 --> 00:30:09,470
Can you unpack for our non-technical listeners the difference between both of those nodes

543
00:30:09,470 --> 00:30:10,390
that were described there?

544
00:30:11,050 --> 00:30:12,550
It's not a material difference.

545
00:30:12,910 --> 00:30:13,950
It's not a material difference?

546
00:30:14,030 --> 00:30:14,210
Right.

547
00:30:14,530 --> 00:30:14,810
Okay.

548
00:30:15,430 --> 00:30:17,750
It's just that the listening nodes

549
00:30:17,750 --> 00:30:18,790
are easier to count

550
00:30:18,790 --> 00:30:20,370
than the non-listening ones.

551
00:30:20,470 --> 00:30:20,730
Okay.

552
00:30:21,750 --> 00:30:23,590
But as far as the consensus goes,

553
00:30:23,710 --> 00:30:24,490
they're identical.

554
00:30:24,830 --> 00:30:25,090
Okay.

555
00:30:25,770 --> 00:30:28,450
So why is the count so much higher

556
00:30:28,450 --> 00:30:29,390
or so much lower

557
00:30:29,390 --> 00:30:30,410
for those listening nodes?

558
00:30:30,410 --> 00:30:31,150
Can you go up, Paul,

559
00:30:31,210 --> 00:30:31,790
to the top again?

560
00:30:32,290 --> 00:30:32,630
Let's see.

561
00:30:32,730 --> 00:30:34,750
It was the reachable listening nodes.

562
00:30:35,150 --> 00:30:37,190
The count seems way lower for those.

563
00:30:37,370 --> 00:30:37,650
Right.

564
00:30:37,830 --> 00:30:39,290
You have to basically either

565
00:30:39,290 --> 00:30:42,370
have the right ISP, the right router,

566
00:30:42,590 --> 00:30:44,390
or manually configure your router.

567
00:30:44,870 --> 00:30:46,950
Do something to become a listening node.

568
00:30:47,550 --> 00:30:48,770
It takes actual action.

569
00:30:49,370 --> 00:30:51,210
Okay, so that's why there's less of those.

570
00:30:51,290 --> 00:30:53,390
Yeah, there's not much benefit to doing so.

571
00:30:53,810 --> 00:30:55,870
So those are not more important for any reason.

572
00:30:56,370 --> 00:30:56,610
So, okay.

573
00:30:57,030 --> 00:30:57,590
All right, cool.

574
00:30:58,290 --> 00:30:59,750
I was going to say...

575
00:30:59,750 --> 00:31:01,930
I mean, we do need some percent of the network

576
00:31:01,930 --> 00:31:03,670
using listening nodes, but...

577
00:31:03,670 --> 00:31:05,190
Yeah, because mine is definitely not that.

578
00:31:06,370 --> 00:31:08,050
It can be much smaller.

579
00:31:08,050 --> 00:31:10,310
it doesn't have to be 85% on that worth listening.

580
00:31:11,590 --> 00:31:12,030
Okay.

581
00:31:12,450 --> 00:31:14,090
Well, Brock still has a lot to learn.

582
00:31:14,890 --> 00:31:15,610
So do I.

583
00:31:16,610 --> 00:31:17,390
Okay, that's interesting.

584
00:31:17,750 --> 00:31:18,030
All right.

585
00:31:18,110 --> 00:31:21,170
So, you know, we're, I guess my question would be

586
00:31:21,170 --> 00:31:23,410
what number would greatly concern you?

587
00:31:23,870 --> 00:31:27,190
You know, if you saw that number that's fluctuated,

588
00:31:27,290 --> 00:31:29,750
it seemed to be fluctuating between 50,000 and 200,000

589
00:31:29,750 --> 00:31:31,370
over the past, you know, five to 10 years.

590
00:31:31,630 --> 00:31:33,750
If we went down to what number would you be like

591
00:31:33,750 --> 00:31:35,090
really concerned about it?

592
00:31:35,350 --> 00:31:37,050
I'm really concerned about it already.

593
00:31:37,050 --> 00:31:38,410
You're really concerned about it right now.

594
00:31:38,670 --> 00:31:42,510
Yeah, I mean, it was 200,000 back in 2017, but it hasn't been since then.

595
00:31:42,630 --> 00:31:46,270
It's probably hit the highest it's been recently is 100,000.

596
00:31:47,110 --> 00:31:52,990
And despite during all of this, the number of people acquiring Bitcoins,

597
00:31:53,670 --> 00:32:00,290
potentially using Bitcoins, has been going up, aside from spam killing the usage.

598
00:32:00,970 --> 00:32:03,590
But still a lot more people are acquiring Bitcoins.

599
00:32:03,590 --> 00:32:06,490
it's hard to know though because aren't a lot of people

600
00:32:06,490 --> 00:32:08,670
using lightning networks even though like if transactions

601
00:32:08,670 --> 00:32:09,950
on mainchain have gone down

602
00:32:09,950 --> 00:32:12,450
more people are using it seems like lightning

603
00:32:12,450 --> 00:32:14,350
has definitely been helping

604
00:32:14,350 --> 00:32:16,610
and it also helps

605
00:32:16,610 --> 00:32:17,950
on the full node front because

606
00:32:17,950 --> 00:32:19,830
you only need to

607
00:32:19,830 --> 00:32:22,490
you only need to have your full node syncing

608
00:32:22,490 --> 00:32:24,450
when you're

609
00:32:24,450 --> 00:32:25,570
verifying a new incoming

610
00:32:25,570 --> 00:32:27,570
new channel

611
00:32:27,570 --> 00:32:29,750
so once you've verified the channel

612
00:32:29,750 --> 00:32:32,650
you have to have some level of monitoring but it can be

613
00:32:32,650 --> 00:32:33,570
like outsourced

614
00:32:33,570 --> 00:32:39,070
safely and you can you don't have to have a full node syncing constantly anymore so that does help

615
00:32:39,070 --> 00:32:45,130
there but okay not necessarily enough to uh overcome the negative trends

616
00:32:45,130 --> 00:32:52,010
i'm a i'm a i'm a what do you call it an optimist i think we're i think we're doing good i think

617
00:32:52,010 --> 00:32:56,630
we're going to keep getting better and you know there will be challenges and tribulations and um

618
00:32:56,630 --> 00:33:00,990
but i think global adoption people using bitcoin people taking advantage of the you know the

619
00:33:00,990 --> 00:33:04,890
properties and characteristics, although we still have a lot of work to do. I think that,

620
00:33:05,010 --> 00:33:08,290
you know, more and more people are learning about Bitcoin and why it's important,

621
00:33:08,610 --> 00:33:12,290
getting involved, getting, owning a piece of Bitcoin, you know, getting involved with a network,

622
00:33:12,710 --> 00:33:15,550
coming to conferences like the ones we're going to be speaking at in the next couple of days.

623
00:33:15,850 --> 00:33:21,910
So, yeah, don't get me wrong. I would say the probability of success is low, but it's there.

624
00:33:21,910 --> 00:33:29,070
And I'm, I'm working as hard as I can to get us, to get Bitcoin in to meet that small probability.

625
00:33:29,870 --> 00:33:31,750
I mean, 3% to 4% here, that's what you said.

626
00:33:31,770 --> 00:33:33,470
That's pretty low probability of success.

627
00:33:33,470 --> 00:33:34,550
I'm sure I'm not alone.

628
00:33:34,830 --> 00:33:36,990
There's lots of other people that are also working hard.

629
00:33:37,350 --> 00:33:39,950
Are you still, you still think 3% to 4% is an accurate number?

630
00:33:40,070 --> 00:33:42,410
Or would you say more 20% now, 50%?

631
00:33:42,630 --> 00:33:43,530
I say single digit.

632
00:33:43,710 --> 00:33:44,090
I don't really know.

633
00:33:44,090 --> 00:33:44,870
You're still single digit.

634
00:33:44,870 --> 00:33:45,730
I don't know if it's a big single digit.

635
00:33:46,490 --> 00:33:49,970
What do you think is the biggest danger right now?

636
00:33:50,390 --> 00:33:51,690
Quick break to support the show.

637
00:33:51,890 --> 00:33:52,570
We'll be right back.

638
00:33:54,950 --> 00:33:57,090
So much of what happens is underground.

639
00:33:57,090 --> 00:34:02,170
secret marketplaces and there's secret group chats and there's a huge information asymmetry.

640
00:34:02,470 --> 00:34:06,650
If you go into it and you just try to figure it out for yourself, you're going to get burned

641
00:34:06,650 --> 00:34:10,650
dramatically because it might take you four years to find that where everything is really happening.

642
00:34:10,810 --> 00:34:17,050
The cost to mine one Bitcoin is much less than the purchase price of a Bitcoin. In every project,

643
00:34:17,190 --> 00:34:21,670
we look at that. So it's a matter of the energy costs and the efficiency of the miners that we're

644
00:34:21,670 --> 00:34:28,070
using, we look at the cost to mine a Bitcoin, they're averaging around $40,000 to $50,000 per

645
00:34:28,070 --> 00:34:34,350
Bitcoin is the cost of production. And we're trading at $110,000 per Bitcoin right now.

646
00:34:34,570 --> 00:34:38,710
That arbitrage is what creates such interesting return on investment.

647
00:34:39,110 --> 00:34:42,590
Our business model essentially is, hey, we have the experience. We've already made the mistakes.

648
00:34:42,590 --> 00:34:46,970
We can just leapfrog all of that and work with you essentially and just manage and do everything.

649
00:34:47,370 --> 00:34:51,350
And you're kind of a silent partner, a majority partner, and we're the minority partner,

650
00:34:51,350 --> 00:34:55,550
but we're the manager. You only make money when your partners make money. There's no fees. There's

651
00:34:55,550 --> 00:34:59,530
no this. There's no that. It's like, hey, we're going to negotiate because we're a true partner.

652
00:34:59,710 --> 00:35:04,290
And like we want to make as much revenue as possible because we make our profit solely from

653
00:35:04,290 --> 00:35:09,250
net profits of positive cash flow and operations. Curated Mining. Form your own Bitcoin mining

654
00:35:09,250 --> 00:35:15,390
company. All right, let's get back to the conversation. The immediate danger is obviously

655
00:35:15,390 --> 00:35:19,990
the illegal data problem, which has been created by Core30.

656
00:35:21,570 --> 00:35:26,230
Long term, it's definitely getting users to use their own full nodes.

657
00:35:26,430 --> 00:35:28,310
I mean, they're kind of interrelated.

658
00:35:28,850 --> 00:35:33,190
I know I was very skeptical of that problem,

659
00:35:33,330 --> 00:35:36,330
but I saw a lot of good conversations on X.

660
00:35:36,750 --> 00:35:39,990
I have a lot of respect for Nick Szabo and his thoughts on the matter,

661
00:35:40,010 --> 00:35:41,190
and I saw you guys talking about it,

662
00:35:41,190 --> 00:35:45,370
and I was really reading a lot of the threads and posts on the topic,

663
00:35:45,390 --> 00:35:48,650
Like, I'm kind of like, right now, like, my mind is, like, undecided.

664
00:35:48,750 --> 00:35:49,570
I'm, like, I'm up in the air.

665
00:35:49,630 --> 00:35:53,490
I've seen so many good threads from both sides of the argument.

666
00:35:53,950 --> 00:35:55,570
It's like, I don't know what to believe anymore.

667
00:35:55,670 --> 00:35:56,410
So, like, I don't know.

668
00:35:56,890 --> 00:35:59,250
Just look at, link it by yourself.

669
00:35:59,410 --> 00:36:00,270
You run a full node.

670
00:36:01,170 --> 00:36:07,370
If that running a full node required you to be involved in distribution of these illegal materials,

671
00:36:07,950 --> 00:36:11,870
not just illegal, but very immoral materials, would you do it?

672
00:36:12,470 --> 00:36:13,330
Would I do it?

673
00:36:13,430 --> 00:36:13,650
I mean.

674
00:36:14,010 --> 00:36:15,110
Let's pretend it was all legal.

675
00:36:15,390 --> 00:36:18,270
Would you willingly distribute stuff?

676
00:36:18,290 --> 00:36:19,790
No, I don't want to distribute that shit.

677
00:36:19,970 --> 00:36:24,370
But, you know, it's kind of like, it's almost like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

678
00:36:24,550 --> 00:36:37,550
It's like running Bitcoin and giving the world an access to money does so much more good than harm, you know, to a decentralized, you know, global money that nobody can, no government can steal from you.

679
00:36:37,630 --> 00:36:39,050
Nobody can take away from you.

680
00:36:39,350 --> 00:36:45,070
I mean, I don't like, I don't pay attention day to day with my node.

681
00:36:45,070 --> 00:36:50,230
you know what I mean? It just runs. And like, I don't, I'm not even aware of, I just, I know I'm

682
00:36:50,230 --> 00:36:54,170
running Bitcoin. Like I'm not concerned with individual transact. I don't think about that

683
00:36:54,170 --> 00:37:01,130
stuff. You know what I mean? Uh, like I wouldn't, but if, I mean, I'm a radical cypherpunk, man.

684
00:37:01,150 --> 00:37:05,310
I probably would just, I would keep running my fucking node no matter what, you know, because

685
00:37:05,310 --> 00:37:10,090
I think the mission that Bitcoin fucking represents is so fucking important and it's such a big deal.

686
00:37:10,110 --> 00:37:14,070
And it's so important for humanity that like, you know, one's going to destroy that for me.

687
00:37:14,070 --> 00:37:17,850
I mean, I'm just saying what I would do, what I'm thinking, like what I'm throwing out there.

688
00:37:18,090 --> 00:37:22,070
But then you've got these nodes in all these countries and places and stuff that…

689
00:37:22,630 --> 00:37:27,250
Do you think most people that we hope adopt Bitcoin would agree with that?

690
00:37:28,690 --> 00:37:29,850
I don't know. Maybe not.

691
00:37:30,430 --> 00:37:32,070
I mean, maybe, you know…

692
00:37:32,730 --> 00:37:35,550
We're already having trouble.

693
00:37:35,550 --> 00:37:35,990
It's interesting.

694
00:37:36,050 --> 00:37:48,899
Remember we already having trouble getting people to run full nodes just because it takes a day or two to sink Yeah Just a minor inconvenience Do you have like I guess I trying to pin you down on like a number of nodes like a specific number

695
00:37:49,340 --> 00:37:53,679
Like, you know, if you drop 10,000, like, that would be, obviously, a cost for extreme concern.

696
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:54,620
Like, what's that number?

697
00:37:54,620 --> 00:38:00,240
Can't have a count because the number of people acquiring and using Bitcoin is changing on a regular basis.

698
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:06,300
So that's why I would say it's 85% of people doing economic activity with Bitcoin.

699
00:38:06,300 --> 00:38:11,220
and that what the actual count is for 85%

700
00:38:11,220 --> 00:38:14,080
and that's obviously going to continually be increasing

701
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:15,899
as long as we're looking for adoption.

702
00:38:18,019 --> 00:38:18,580
Interesting.

703
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:21,240
These are interesting questions.

704
00:38:21,499 --> 00:38:23,620
I think Nick wrote,

705
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:26,179
made some really interesting legal points

706
00:38:26,179 --> 00:38:27,540
about different jurisdictions

707
00:38:27,540 --> 00:38:30,120
and then I saw other lawyers on the other side

708
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:31,560
get involved and say stuff.

709
00:38:31,700 --> 00:38:33,499
I think Joe Carlos already had some interesting points

710
00:38:33,499 --> 00:38:54,560
And it's like, it's fascinating to see so many great ideas and people having different thoughts. And like, I'm just, I'm just, I just feel happy to be alive at this time to like, just witness this all play out and just see, like, I think X has become, you know, like the new Bitcoin talk forum, it feels like where everybody's just posting threads and ideas and conversations and, you know, we can go back and forth.

711
00:38:54,560 --> 00:39:20,640
And I think I was talking to Nick on one thread, and I don't know if you were on it or not, but what about this? I think we came up with an idea that I thought was interesting that I want to talk to you about and maybe unpack it more. What if there is a way to have not just one type of node, but like a node that can basically not store any of the arbitrary data and store only the financial data so it's never at risk for any of this?

712
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:21,679
Like what if there was a bucket?

713
00:39:22,100 --> 00:39:27,580
I don't fully understand how these different protocol features work.

714
00:39:28,220 --> 00:39:32,659
My understanding is Core v30 wants to create a separate area for this stuff.

715
00:39:33,780 --> 00:39:34,720
Is that accurate?

716
00:39:35,019 --> 00:39:36,120
No, it's not.

717
00:39:36,260 --> 00:39:37,380
Adam Back's idea.

718
00:39:37,519 --> 00:39:38,479
That's Adam Back's idea.

719
00:39:38,620 --> 00:39:38,760
Okay.

720
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:42,479
So Adam wants to create a separate area to put that information and make it easy to put it there.

721
00:39:42,939 --> 00:39:46,919
But what if you could do that and then make it so that you could run a node that doesn't store any of that information?

722
00:39:47,540 --> 00:39:50,380
You have to have the spammers voluntarily.

723
00:39:50,380 --> 00:39:52,340
cooperate with it. But wouldn't they

724
00:39:52,340 --> 00:39:53,899
want to do that because it's cheaper?

725
00:39:54,380 --> 00:39:55,939
Their whole goal was to harm Bitcoin.

726
00:39:56,620 --> 00:39:58,159
So you're saying in a

727
00:39:58,159 --> 00:40:00,399
attacker, you know, that

728
00:40:00,399 --> 00:40:02,659
is not motivated by monetary economic

729
00:40:02,659 --> 00:40:04,380
game theory, they would

730
00:40:04,380 --> 00:40:06,340
just want to try to harm Bitcoin

731
00:40:06,340 --> 00:40:08,220
or attack Bitcoin. They would just

732
00:40:08,220 --> 00:40:10,019
ignore to put a cheaper transaction.

733
00:40:10,820 --> 00:40:12,120
Altcoins already exist.

734
00:40:12,659 --> 00:40:14,499
Say that one more time? Altcoins already exist

735
00:40:14,499 --> 00:40:16,260
that are specifically designed for

736
00:40:16,260 --> 00:40:18,260
data storage. Yeah, so I mean that is another

737
00:40:18,260 --> 00:40:20,159
very accurate point as well is that

738
00:40:20,159 --> 00:40:29,820
And this is part of where my final thought on all this is that it doesn't matter because at the end of the day, people are going to put it on the other chains just because it's cheaper.

739
00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:36,080
But then what you're saying is that they would have a malicious reason not to do it where it would be non-financial in nature.

740
00:40:36,740 --> 00:40:41,479
I mean, some of the core spammers have as much as admitted it explicitly.

741
00:40:42,060 --> 00:40:43,840
What do you mean as much as? Can you unpack that?

742
00:40:44,240 --> 00:40:48,019
They've been interviewed and explicitly said that their goal is to harm Bitcoin.

743
00:40:48,019 --> 00:40:48,499
What?

744
00:40:48,499 --> 00:40:48,580
What?

745
00:40:49,700 --> 00:40:50,179
What?

746
00:40:51,060 --> 00:40:52,179
Who has said this?

747
00:40:52,899 --> 00:40:53,439
I don't know.

748
00:40:53,780 --> 00:40:57,399
Different people in the spam community.

749
00:40:57,679 --> 00:40:59,040
That are Bitcoin core developers?

750
00:40:59,580 --> 00:41:01,080
Not Bitcoin core developers.

751
00:41:01,179 --> 00:41:01,880
I was about to say.

752
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:04,620
All those spammers.

753
00:41:04,979 --> 00:41:09,499
Bitcoin core developers have said pretty terrible stuff too, but not that.

754
00:41:09,499 --> 00:41:13,240
I mean, I hope that would not be trying to purposely harm Bitcoin.

755
00:41:13,240 --> 00:41:26,580
I guess the question is, if Bitcoin can't be censorship resistant and just kind of operate and run, if there is a way...

756
00:41:26,580 --> 00:41:33,040
Again, I still think that the chance of Bitcoin not working at this point, I feel like Bitcoin has reached escape velocity.

757
00:41:33,179 --> 00:41:33,959
That's my personal opinion.

758
00:41:35,419 --> 00:41:40,560
But Bitcoin has to be able to handle all these challenges and deal with all these challenges.

759
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:43,399
And the question is, is the network robust enough?

760
00:41:43,499 --> 00:41:44,159
I think it is.

761
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:47,560
I think that there are so many nodes distributed in so many different countries and so many

762
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:51,399
different places all over the earth that, you know, it's kind of like people downloading

763
00:41:51,399 --> 00:41:53,179
file sharing on the internet.

764
00:41:53,399 --> 00:41:54,959
Like, okay, technically it's illegal.

765
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:57,439
Good luck enforcing it at scale across the world.

766
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:00,220
You know, that's kind of my thought.

767
00:42:00,580 --> 00:42:03,200
Like, okay, maybe you can make an example out of a couple people running a node.

768
00:42:03,399 --> 00:42:07,700
Well, keep in mind, like file sharing isn't really illegal.

769
00:42:07,700 --> 00:42:10,419
It just allows the copyright holder to sue you.

770
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:15,879
If the government doesn't, the government's not going to prosecute you for it unless you're in Japan.

771
00:42:16,379 --> 00:42:19,499
They have those videos where it says FBI will come after you or whatever.

772
00:42:19,499 --> 00:42:20,280
If you do it commercially.

773
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:21,320
Or something like this.

774
00:42:21,499 --> 00:42:23,640
If you do it commercially, you have more liability.

775
00:42:24,140 --> 00:42:31,740
I feel like I remember some grandma getting arrested by the feds or something when she was downloading files off LimeWire or something way back in the day.

776
00:42:31,740 --> 00:42:38,160
I know in Japan, they do have criminal penalties just for normal copyright infringement.

777
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:43,220
And people basically don't do pile sharring there because they'll go to jail.

778
00:42:43,439 --> 00:42:43,700
Really?

779
00:42:44,700 --> 00:42:44,999
Wow.

780
00:42:47,479 --> 00:42:50,019
These are interesting conversations and topics.

781
00:42:50,959 --> 00:42:52,379
A lot of interesting rabbit holes to go down.

782
00:42:53,999 --> 00:43:03,560
One thing that reminds me of someone trying to argue that the legality of this stuff doesn't matter

783
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:06,679
because Bitcoin's illegal in China

784
00:43:06,679 --> 00:43:08,479
and people still run nodes there.

785
00:43:08,700 --> 00:43:11,080
But the reality is people don't run nodes in China.

786
00:43:11,179 --> 00:43:13,220
You can't run a node in China at this point.

787
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:17,660
So, like, can't you just...

788
00:43:17,660 --> 00:43:19,600
Can't you use a VPN or something?

789
00:43:19,939 --> 00:43:22,979
I mean, I'm sure there are people who do it anyway.

790
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:25,600
But for the most part, you know,

791
00:43:25,679 --> 00:43:27,240
general anyone off the street,

792
00:43:27,820 --> 00:43:29,459
even if they want to,

793
00:43:29,540 --> 00:43:30,580
they're not going to run a node.

794
00:43:31,100 --> 00:43:32,019
Yeah, the average person,

795
00:43:32,019 --> 00:43:34,260
unless they're a true cypherpunk

796
00:43:34,260 --> 00:43:35,080
and there's a cause.

797
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:36,640
There's few and far between

798
00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:37,840
as far as Chinese nodes.

799
00:43:37,959 --> 00:43:39,019
If you look at the network,

800
00:43:39,720 --> 00:43:41,519
if you look at the regions that nodes are in,

801
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:42,919
there's basically none in China.

802
00:43:43,019 --> 00:43:45,019
Is there a good infographic to look at that

803
00:43:45,019 --> 00:43:46,399
to see where all the nodes are?

804
00:43:47,140 --> 00:43:47,700
I'm not sure.

805
00:43:47,939 --> 00:43:48,300
You're not sure?

806
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:50,379
I'm pretty sure I've seen websites with it,

807
00:43:50,439 --> 00:43:51,120
but I don't know why.

808
00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:53,040
I know I've seen them before

809
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:53,740
and they look kind of cool

810
00:43:53,740 --> 00:43:54,560
because you can just see

811
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:55,919
the whole world lit up

812
00:43:55,919 --> 00:43:57,040
with all these different connections,

813
00:43:57,240 --> 00:43:59,240
which is why I think also that,

814
00:43:59,240 --> 00:44:00,479
you know, along,

815
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:01,879
like the whole world is hostile.

816
00:44:02,019 --> 00:44:03,700
Like, all these countries are hostile to each other.

817
00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:06,399
So, like, if one country loves Bitcoin, the other country hates Bitcoin.

818
00:44:06,479 --> 00:44:07,280
If one country...

819
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:07,720
You know what I mean?

820
00:44:07,780 --> 00:44:09,439
So, like, you've got this kind of...

821
00:44:09,439 --> 00:44:12,499
This geographical decentralization and arbitrage

822
00:44:12,499 --> 00:44:15,479
where it makes it hard to uniformly enforce the same laws

823
00:44:15,479 --> 00:44:17,399
in all these different places, which is...

824
00:44:17,399 --> 00:44:18,280
Well, unless...

825
00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:18,979
...the benefits of Bitcoin.

826
00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:22,899
Bitcoin becomes a file-sharing network for things that are universally important.

827
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:23,560
Yeah.

828
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:25,760
I just...

829
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:27,419
You know, the only thing that would make sense

830
00:44:27,419 --> 00:44:29,360
would be to try to harm the network.

831
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:31,360
But, I mean, I just...

832
00:44:32,019 --> 00:44:32,760
Yeah, that's it.

833
00:44:32,820 --> 00:44:33,899
Yeah, okay, that looks pretty cool.

834
00:44:34,419 --> 00:44:36,240
Yeah, you can see everywhere.

835
00:44:36,479 --> 00:44:40,740
Australia, Russia, South Africa, Brazil, Argentina, Chile.

836
00:44:41,459 --> 00:44:44,179
You got Hawaii, Canada, Alaska, Iceland.

837
00:44:44,979 --> 00:44:46,200
Iceland's got some Bitcoin nodes.

838
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:46,720
Look at that.

839
00:44:46,919 --> 00:44:47,959
Norway, France.

840
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:51,660
Algeria, Kazakhstan, Ukraine.

841
00:44:51,780 --> 00:44:53,660
Yeah, so there's just nodes everywhere all over the world.

842
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:54,220
It's pretty cool.

843
00:44:54,300 --> 00:44:54,879
Just not China.

844
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:56,140
Where's China?

845
00:44:56,179 --> 00:44:56,499
You got to go?

846
00:44:56,660 --> 00:44:57,479
Well, you got to look at China.

847
00:44:57,479 --> 00:44:59,080
It's got pretty lit up on the coastline there.

848
00:44:59,160 --> 00:44:59,580
You see that?

849
00:44:59,580 --> 00:45:01,899
Those were all like Shenzhen.

850
00:45:01,999 --> 00:45:02,640
You got Taiwan.

851
00:45:03,660 --> 00:45:05,580
You've got Japan lit up.

852
00:45:06,019 --> 00:45:10,620
So you got a lot of Chinese nodes along the port cities and the coastline.

853
00:45:11,399 --> 00:45:12,519
Guangdong, Guangdong.

854
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:14,140
Some of those places, Philippines.

855
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:17,220
I mean, it looks pretty.

856
00:45:17,300 --> 00:45:19,120
I mean, I want to see that whole map blue.

857
00:45:19,540 --> 00:45:23,419
But I mean, that's some pretty nice distribution there of nodes.

858
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:25,939
I think this.

859
00:45:26,399 --> 00:45:28,060
Most people are not even aware of this conversation

860
00:45:28,060 --> 00:45:30,280
because it's so like niche on crypto Twitter,

861
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:31,459
like in the underground.

862
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:34,999
Most people, you know,

863
00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:36,019
that are interacting with Bitcoin

864
00:45:36,019 --> 00:45:37,179
or new to Bitcoin or whatever.

865
00:45:37,300 --> 00:45:37,820
I mean, they don't even,

866
00:45:38,340 --> 00:45:41,019
they don't understand it on a technical level yet.

867
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:42,459
Like I deal with so many people like that.

868
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:44,519
So many, like the conversation we're having,

869
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:46,919
like 99 out of 100 Bitcoiners I talked to,

870
00:45:47,179 --> 00:45:47,919
wouldn't go that far.

871
00:45:47,959 --> 00:45:50,620
I would say, you know, 90, 98,

872
00:45:50,679 --> 00:45:53,019
nine out of 10 Bitcoiners I talked to

873
00:45:53,019 --> 00:45:56,840
are not like, they barely would know what core is.

874
00:45:56,840 --> 00:45:58,939
they're like, oh, that's a development team behind, but they're not.

875
00:45:59,220 --> 00:46:00,160
They're more of the problem.

876
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:00,479
Yeah.

877
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:01,360
Well, yeah.

878
00:46:01,399 --> 00:46:03,120
I mean, you know, that's why we're having this conversation.

879
00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:07,060
I think it's good for people to be aware of it, but, you know, you've got to reach people

880
00:46:07,060 --> 00:46:10,360
in phases as they can understand, okay, you know, why is Bitcoin important, right?

881
00:46:10,379 --> 00:46:11,419
Kind of start with the money thing.

882
00:46:11,439 --> 00:46:13,679
And then you can kind of get down into these different issues.

883
00:46:13,679 --> 00:46:17,439
But I just think it's really cool that these conversations can kind of play out.

884
00:46:17,580 --> 00:46:21,200
And I'm like, you know, one day I wake up and I read a thread and I'm on one side and

885
00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:22,459
the next day I wake up on the other side.

886
00:46:22,540 --> 00:46:25,560
And then the next day I wake up, it's like, I just kind of like, now I'm just kind of like

887
00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:29,860
in the middle and I'm like, I'm really curious how this plays out. And, you know, I can see merit to

888
00:46:29,860 --> 00:46:34,660
both sides and I can see merit to different ideas on both sides. And, you know, you don't want to

889
00:46:34,660 --> 00:46:39,800
censor Bitcoin, but yes, Bitcoin isn't intended to be, you know, file sharing network. And it's just,

890
00:46:39,879 --> 00:46:47,200
it's a fascinating. Calling it censorship to Bitcoin, what it's supposed to be in stop attacks

891
00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:51,979
is nonsense. I mean, are we censoring when we, what is Bitcoin supposed to be, right? I guess,

892
00:46:51,979 --> 00:46:53,840
what is spam? Can you define spam?

893
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:55,540
Anything that has not been

894
00:46:55,540 --> 00:46:58,140
that people have not consented

895
00:46:58,140 --> 00:46:59,879
to. When you run

896
00:46:59,879 --> 00:47:01,959
Bitcoin, you're running it for a specific purpose

897
00:47:01,959 --> 00:47:04,080
and there's only one purpose

898
00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:05,959
that was there intended from the start that

899
00:47:05,959 --> 00:47:06,860
everyone has agreed to.

900
00:47:07,979 --> 00:47:09,979
Well, if the protocol allows you

901
00:47:09,979 --> 00:47:12,019
to do it, that's why they have to

902
00:47:12,019 --> 00:47:14,060
bypass it. But they're still able to

903
00:47:14,060 --> 00:47:15,999
do it. Only by bypassing

904
00:47:15,999 --> 00:47:17,840
rules. But if they

905
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:19,939
were bypassing the rules, how could they

906
00:47:19,939 --> 00:47:21,640
even do it to begin with? Because the

907
00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:24,200
the rules on the network allow it to happen.

908
00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:25,720
Software is only so smart.

909
00:47:26,340 --> 00:47:29,140
So what is the solution to fix the software?

910
00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:29,999
We get,

911
00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:31,300
we get consensus from people.

912
00:47:31,439 --> 00:47:32,399
So that couldn't happen.

913
00:47:33,060 --> 00:47:35,260
Because if he fixes and not scores,

914
00:47:35,419 --> 00:47:39,060
just absolutely refusing to fix anything and making it worse.

915
00:47:40,879 --> 00:47:41,600
I mean,

916
00:47:41,999 --> 00:47:44,820
just real quick back to the previous point though,

917
00:47:44,820 --> 00:47:50,280
is it censorship to reject transactions that spend Satoshi's coins without a

918
00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:50,939
valid signature?

919
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:52,280
Say that one more time?

920
00:47:53,220 --> 00:47:57,120
If you reject a transaction and keep it out of the chain

921
00:47:57,120 --> 00:48:02,300
that spends Satoshi coins but doesn't have a signature,

922
00:48:02,899 --> 00:48:03,620
is that censorship?

923
00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:08,019
It's an interesting question.

924
00:48:11,499 --> 00:48:14,220
Enforcing rules is not censorship at all.

925
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:21,439
I mean, I guess it's your prerogative if you want to do that, I would think.

926
00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:26,120
but if the network allows you to not reject those transactions,

927
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:28,780
if a node can not reject those transactions

928
00:48:28,780 --> 00:48:30,179
and be in consensus with the network,

929
00:48:32,479 --> 00:48:34,360
you know, is...

930
00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:35,640
If they can do it, they can do it,

931
00:48:35,720 --> 00:48:37,959
I guess would be my counter to that.

932
00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:42,240
If you can put the next block

933
00:48:42,240 --> 00:48:45,019
and you have the right to run whatever implementation you want

934
00:48:45,019 --> 00:48:46,220
and do it how you want to do it,

935
00:48:46,540 --> 00:48:48,300
that's part of the network, right?

936
00:48:49,100 --> 00:48:50,100
I guess...

937
00:48:51,640 --> 00:49:11,879
I mean, it's just an interesting question. It's just an interesting thought experiment. I mean, I go back and forth. I just don't think it's for 99% of this, what we call spam, you know, putting non-financial information on Bitcoin. I would say that long term, it just, it will, it does not make economic sense to do that because there are so many other chains where you can do that for so cheap.

938
00:49:11,879 --> 00:49:15,340
that like trying to put that stuff on Bitcoin is such a niche thing.

939
00:49:15,340 --> 00:49:18,899
That's like most Bitcoiners can't afford to even interact with those types of

940
00:49:18,899 --> 00:49:21,560
things. So it's like this niche of the niche of the niche thing.

941
00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:23,280
And like, I think it just dies out over time.

942
00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:26,060
Cause it's just as Bitcoin grows more important for its main use case,

943
00:49:26,060 --> 00:49:28,800
it gets more and more expensive to try to put, you know,

944
00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:31,999
a picture of a lion or whatever on fucking Bitcoin. It makes no sense.

945
00:49:32,260 --> 00:49:36,320
You know, the financial cost is so high that that acts as a filter.

946
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:38,979
In practice, it's the opposite.

947
00:49:38,979 --> 00:49:42,419
but spam rounds out the legitimate usage.

948
00:49:43,399 --> 00:49:46,700
But it's so much more expensive to put that spam on there.

949
00:49:47,479 --> 00:49:49,620
If somebody's willing to pay,

950
00:49:49,899 --> 00:49:51,340
that's why I get back to this question is,

951
00:49:51,439 --> 00:49:52,419
what is spam?

952
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:55,320
I feel like if you ask 10 people,

953
00:49:55,399 --> 00:49:56,340
they'll give you 10 different answers.

954
00:49:56,439 --> 00:49:57,959
It's almost like this subjective question.

955
00:49:59,019 --> 00:50:00,540
What might be spam to you?

956
00:50:00,780 --> 00:50:02,160
It might be spam to me,

957
00:50:02,240 --> 00:50:03,519
but maybe it's not spam to Paul.

958
00:50:03,700 --> 00:50:04,240
You know what I mean?

959
00:50:04,240 --> 00:50:05,820
But if it's spam to anyone, it's spam.

960
00:50:05,820 --> 00:50:10,499
what if I say a monetary transaction is spam to me?

961
00:50:10,740 --> 00:50:13,220
You can't because that was the intended use case from the start.

962
00:50:13,499 --> 00:50:15,040
You agreed to that by running the software.

963
00:50:16,660 --> 00:50:19,479
Yeah, I mean, the software is allowing me to do other things.

964
00:50:20,580 --> 00:50:23,399
It's allowing me to do these, what did you call it?

965
00:50:23,439 --> 00:50:25,459
I put a Satoshi-less transaction.

966
00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:29,360
But it does, the point there is the system is based on rules.

967
00:50:29,459 --> 00:50:31,600
Having rules is not in any way censored.

968
00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:37,580
but the rules of the software are allowing this to happen right now is there a way to make the

969
00:50:37,580 --> 00:50:42,640
rules of the software not allow this to happen yeah that's how it has that's how bitcoin has

970
00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:48,800
worked for the last 15 16 years but haven't people been able to for the past 15 16 years

971
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:54,320
put non-financial information on the blockchain no i thought this was something that's been

972
00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:58,280
happening this conversation has been happening since bitcoin's inception almost people putting

973
00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:01,280
different forms of arbitrary data on Bitcoin.

974
00:51:01,820 --> 00:51:02,300
Not really.

975
00:51:02,720 --> 00:51:04,080
Not really or not at all?

976
00:51:04,179 --> 00:51:08,560
There's been spam, but when there's a new way of spamming,

977
00:51:08,780 --> 00:51:10,519
the bug gets fixed historically.

978
00:51:11,260 --> 00:51:11,600
Okay.

979
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:17,399
It's not intended use case of it.

980
00:51:17,399 --> 00:51:21,519
There's ways that people can abuse the scripting system

981
00:51:21,519 --> 00:51:25,499
to find new exploits to bypass and spam filters.

982
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:27,760
Then Discord fixed those?

983
00:51:28,280 --> 00:51:32,640
historically? Is that how that's happened? Used to. Used to. When did that stop?

984
00:51:33,340 --> 00:51:39,939
The last couple of years. Okay, interesting. So there hasn't been a way for people to put

985
00:51:39,939 --> 00:51:44,800
non-financial data for the past 15 years onto the chain that has been unstoppable?

986
00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:51,320
I'm over my technical chops here, bro. So you're going to have to bear with me because I'm not a

987
00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:56,419
super technical person, but people that I've talked to have told me that there has been ways

988
00:51:56,419 --> 00:51:58,360
to put spam on Bitcoin that have not been,

989
00:51:58,479 --> 00:52:00,760
that have been the same way for many a very long time.

990
00:52:01,860 --> 00:52:02,179
Not really.

991
00:52:03,399 --> 00:52:05,899
There's been exploits in the last couple of years

992
00:52:05,899 --> 00:52:09,280
that Core has refused to fix that were introduced.

993
00:52:10,060 --> 00:52:12,959
Only the Taproot one was introduced in 2021.

994
00:52:13,979 --> 00:52:16,580
So with Taproot and SegWit and all this stuff,

995
00:52:16,679 --> 00:52:18,679
like my understanding was that that stuff was introduced

996
00:52:18,679 --> 00:52:20,419
to help privacy on Bitcoin.

997
00:52:21,019 --> 00:52:24,640
Is that accurate, but also it's introduced ways

998
00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:25,580
to exploit the protocol?

999
00:52:25,580 --> 00:52:26,939
Is that kind of what you're saying here?

1000
00:52:27,540 --> 00:52:28,220
So these are unintembed.

1001
00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:30,679
Taproot has been a significant improvement.

1002
00:52:31,519 --> 00:52:35,459
But because the code wasn't updated for it in the spam filter side,

1003
00:52:35,679 --> 00:52:37,600
the spammers realized they use Taproot.

1004
00:52:37,720 --> 00:52:39,419
They can just bypass all the spam filters.

1005
00:52:41,240 --> 00:52:42,959
And that's kind of what's allowing this.

1006
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:43,300
Right.

1007
00:52:43,479 --> 00:52:48,479
So prior to Taproot, there wasn't a way for spammers to put stuff on

1008
00:52:48,479 --> 00:52:50,320
that had never been patched.

1009
00:52:51,540 --> 00:52:54,060
And I can't say there's no vulnerabilities.

1010
00:52:54,060 --> 00:52:54,620
Okay.

1011
00:52:55,580 --> 00:52:59,499
until someone exploits it in a systemic way.

1012
00:52:59,640 --> 00:53:03,360
There's no real reason to proactively go looking for them.

1013
00:53:07,660 --> 00:53:09,840
Tell me a little bit about, let's switch gears a little bit.

1014
00:53:09,899 --> 00:53:10,899
Let's talk a little bit about Ocean.

1015
00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:12,959
Why did you decide to create Ocean?

1016
00:53:13,399 --> 00:53:14,160
What is Ocean?

1017
00:53:15,499 --> 00:53:17,580
Well, the number two problem with Bitcoin,

1018
00:53:18,179 --> 00:53:20,379
after lack of full node adoption,

1019
00:53:20,379 --> 00:53:23,379
is the terrible mining centralization.

1020
00:53:24,120 --> 00:53:25,320
Miners are all using pools.

1021
00:53:25,580 --> 00:53:29,499
And the pools have basically taken control over the whole mining process.

1022
00:53:30,419 --> 00:53:32,459
And so essentially before Ocean launched,

1023
00:53:32,580 --> 00:53:37,640
there was six, maybe seven real miners that made pretty much all the blocks.

1024
00:53:38,860 --> 00:53:42,720
And so that is a significant risk for Bitcoin,

1025
00:53:43,439 --> 00:53:45,220
aside from the full node issue.

1026
00:53:45,999 --> 00:53:48,340
That needs to be fixed, and that was something that

1027
00:53:48,340 --> 00:53:51,600
I've actually been in a good position to fix.

1028
00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:55,700
may be on a few people that is in that position to get fixed.

1029
00:53:55,820 --> 00:54:00,040
So I figured as long as we need Bitcoin as much as we do,

1030
00:54:01,300 --> 00:54:04,379
after all the money printing that's been going on since COVID,

1031
00:54:04,840 --> 00:54:07,160
we're going to have to address this eventually.

1032
00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:10,060
We might as well get it addressed sooner rather than later.

1033
00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:12,100
It's just going to get worse and worse.

1034
00:54:12,100 --> 00:54:14,379
The last 10 years has shown that.

1035
00:54:16,120 --> 00:54:19,780
And so that's basically why I decided to bring back the rule

1036
00:54:19,780 --> 00:54:22,340
and address the whole mining centralization issue.

1037
00:54:22,899 --> 00:54:23,720
Okay, interesting.

1038
00:54:23,959 --> 00:54:24,160
Straight on.

1039
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:25,780
I love it.

1040
00:54:25,919 --> 00:54:27,640
No, I'm good friends with Bob and Mark

1041
00:54:27,640 --> 00:54:29,160
and we've talked a lot about it

1042
00:54:29,160 --> 00:54:31,200
and I think it's really cool what you guys are doing.

1043
00:54:32,660 --> 00:54:34,939
I know my team and you guys have had a talk.

1044
00:54:35,019 --> 00:54:36,600
We're going to try to switch over to you guys

1045
00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:37,820
and make it all work.

1046
00:54:37,919 --> 00:54:39,860
We just have a lot of back-end partners

1047
00:54:39,860 --> 00:54:40,919
that we work with and stuff.

1048
00:54:41,040 --> 00:54:42,840
So we have to be able to have a,

1049
00:54:43,959 --> 00:54:45,820
with different business entities,

1050
00:54:45,979 --> 00:54:48,320
be able to kind of visualize and quickly see through it

1051
00:54:48,320 --> 00:54:51,080
and kind of have some of that tooling built out around it

1052
00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:52,740
that maybe some other pools have.

1053
00:54:53,220 --> 00:54:54,959
But I'm 100% with you.

1054
00:54:55,019 --> 00:54:58,120
I really love the idea that the miners can produce their own blocks.

1055
00:54:58,300 --> 00:55:00,899
And I think it's pretty cool how the miners themselves

1056
00:55:00,899 --> 00:55:04,200
get into the Coinbase when one of them finds a block.

1057
00:55:04,280 --> 00:55:05,040
I think that's super cool.

1058
00:55:05,100 --> 00:55:06,240
So it just pays out directly from there.

1059
00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:07,919
It doesn't go to the pool.

1060
00:55:08,040 --> 00:55:09,019
Is that my understanding of it?

1061
00:55:09,160 --> 00:55:11,379
Unless it's a smaller miner.

1062
00:55:11,740 --> 00:55:14,040
Because you can only put 50 in there or something like that.

1063
00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:16,459
There's some miners that have firmware bugs

1064
00:55:16,459 --> 00:55:19,180
that limit how many they can put right in the reward.

1065
00:55:19,459 --> 00:55:19,700
But yeah.

1066
00:55:20,140 --> 00:55:20,700
Okay, cool.

1067
00:55:21,200 --> 00:55:22,700
Yeah, very, very, very interesting.

1068
00:55:23,919 --> 00:55:27,680
So my understanding is that you still,

1069
00:55:27,879 --> 00:55:29,180
if the miner finds the block,

1070
00:55:29,479 --> 00:55:33,019
it doesn't matter what rules they want.

1071
00:55:33,060 --> 00:55:33,919
You guys will let them do,

1072
00:55:34,019 --> 00:55:35,839
whether it's rules from core,

1073
00:55:35,959 --> 00:55:37,839
rules from knots, rules from however.

1074
00:55:38,240 --> 00:55:38,839
Is that accurate?

1075
00:55:39,240 --> 00:55:40,939
As far as spam filtration goes, yeah.

1076
00:55:40,939 --> 00:55:41,660
Spam filtration goes.

1077
00:55:41,660 --> 00:55:43,700
Obviously, you have to make a valid Bitcoin block.

1078
00:55:43,899 --> 00:55:44,100
Yeah.

1079
00:55:44,100 --> 00:55:45,140
So you're, yeah.

1080
00:55:46,459 --> 00:55:54,160
so even though you've got a strong opinion on you can't buy any theory yeah well no longer you can

1081
00:55:54,160 --> 00:56:01,720
oh man so as long as you know i mean we we can't stop miners from making whatever blocks they want

1082
00:56:01,720 --> 00:56:10,120
okay it's just impossible yeah all we do is help coordinate the rewards makes sense okay i love

1083
00:56:10,120 --> 00:56:14,280
bitcoin so the way this all works it's like you have a strong opinion about something but at the

1084
00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:17,040
And at the end of the day, you know, it's decentralized.

1085
00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:25,700
And, you know, if you solve the block, you get to make the rules and kind of do it within the system, obviously, within Bitcoin's operational system as it currently stands.

1086
00:56:26,540 --> 00:56:41,089
If a miner is making blocks that are terrible for the network I going to say yeah that a bad thing to do Like you shouldn do that But there nothing Ocean can do to stop that even if we wanted to Yeah

1087
00:56:41,809 --> 00:56:43,789
Well, because what you're doing is you're taking,

1088
00:56:43,949 --> 00:56:45,769
you're giving that power back to the miners, right?

1089
00:56:45,809 --> 00:56:47,309
I mean, that's the block creation.

1090
00:56:47,489 --> 00:56:48,329
Yeah, exactly.

1091
00:56:48,689 --> 00:56:48,849
Okay.

1092
00:56:49,289 --> 00:56:51,589
It's just, you know, we've gotten lazy over the past decade.

1093
00:56:53,009 --> 00:56:54,929
I mean, if they wanted to,

1094
00:56:55,009 --> 00:56:56,249
they don't have to use Ocean at all.

1095
00:56:56,349 --> 00:56:57,329
Like, still make that block.

1096
00:56:58,109 --> 00:57:00,209
There literally is nothing Ocean can do

1097
00:57:00,209 --> 00:57:01,589
to stop them from making that block.

1098
00:57:01,689 --> 00:57:02,609
Okay, interesting.

1099
00:57:06,429 --> 00:57:09,829
So I didn't even know about Bitcoin until like 2015.

1100
00:57:10,229 --> 00:57:11,129
I played sports.

1101
00:57:11,269 --> 00:57:13,229
I knew not that much about computers,

1102
00:57:13,489 --> 00:57:15,609
but obviously when I found out about Bitcoin

1103
00:57:15,609 --> 00:57:17,629
and it's why I was fascinated

1104
00:57:17,629 --> 00:57:19,129
and went down the rabbit hole and studied it.

1105
00:57:21,269 --> 00:57:24,969
In 2013, tell me about this chain split issue

1106
00:57:24,969 --> 00:57:25,729
that popped up.

1107
00:57:25,849 --> 00:57:26,789
What almost happened here?

1108
00:57:26,789 --> 00:57:31,809
2013 was March and then May.

1109
00:57:33,589 --> 00:57:37,289
March, I don't know if it was March or maybe even February

1110
00:57:37,289 --> 00:57:40,629
that Bitcoin Core 0.8 was released.

1111
00:57:40,889 --> 00:57:46,629
And that had some major rewriting of basically the low-level back-end code

1112
00:57:46,629 --> 00:57:48,549
for storing the UTXO set.

1113
00:57:51,429 --> 00:57:55,589
And when that was rewritten, people didn't realize

1114
00:57:55,589 --> 00:58:00,209
is that there was actually a protocol rule that people didn't know about.

1115
00:58:00,729 --> 00:58:02,129
And when they rewrote that code,

1116
00:58:02,609 --> 00:58:04,869
they accidentally removed the enforcement of that rule.

1117
00:58:05,329 --> 00:58:08,009
So the 0.8 nodes that had just come out

1118
00:58:08,009 --> 00:58:11,449
would now accept blocks that were technically invalid

1119
00:58:11,449 --> 00:58:12,909
according to the old rules.

1120
00:58:13,329 --> 00:58:15,989
And if it's intentional, that's a hard fork.

1121
00:58:18,209 --> 00:58:19,929
The whole network goes along with it.

1122
00:58:19,929 --> 00:58:25,289
But because this was a completely unplanned, unknown issue,

1123
00:58:25,589 --> 00:58:35,469
The only real solution at the time was to basically add that rule back in what became 0.8.1.

1124
00:58:36,429 --> 00:58:41,629
We added the rule back in temporarily and then scheduled the hard fork for three months later in May.

1125
00:58:43,669 --> 00:58:44,769
Coordinated hard fork.

1126
00:58:46,549 --> 00:58:49,909
So how did that, was there problems in the short term?

1127
00:58:50,029 --> 00:58:52,349
Like how quickly was that second update rushed out?

1128
00:58:52,349 --> 00:58:54,469
Well, nobody even noticed that the problem existed.

1129
00:58:54,529 --> 00:58:54,909
Oh, nobody.

1130
00:58:54,909 --> 00:58:58,989
So a miner actually made a block that broke the old rules that had been removed.

1131
00:58:59,449 --> 00:59:00,989
Oh, interesting. Wow.

1132
00:59:01,309 --> 00:59:02,869
So a miner made that block.

1133
00:59:03,309 --> 00:59:05,649
The new updated nodes accepted the block,

1134
00:59:05,729 --> 00:59:08,369
and all the old nodes all immediately rejected the block.

1135
00:59:08,689 --> 00:59:10,189
So what happened when that occurred?

1136
00:59:12,069 --> 00:59:14,289
People noticed somewhat quickly.

1137
00:59:18,229 --> 00:59:24,349
I guess it was probably a few hours of analysis of what was going on.

1138
00:59:24,909 --> 00:59:31,049
I believe even before we had fully figured out what had gone on,

1139
00:59:32,969 --> 00:59:38,129
the largest mining pool, like the people who ran the pools

1140
00:59:38,129 --> 00:59:39,769
were actually active in the community at the time.

1141
00:59:40,509 --> 00:59:43,109
And so the largest mining pool just downgraded,

1142
00:59:43,229 --> 00:59:45,269
and that was enough to resolve the problem

1143
00:59:45,269 --> 00:59:48,049
because not all the miners had upgraded already anyway.

1144
00:59:48,709 --> 00:59:53,389
So by the largest one downgrading, the old rules had the majority,

1145
00:59:53,389 --> 00:59:55,489
and then all the notes followed along the

1146
00:59:55,489 --> 00:59:57,369
valid chain at that point.

1147
00:59:57,709 --> 00:59:57,929
Wow.

1148
00:59:59,109 --> 01:00:01,729
What would happen if something like this happened today?

1149
01:00:02,989 --> 01:00:03,729
Because obviously

1150
01:00:03,729 --> 01:00:05,089
the blocks are worth a lot more today.

1151
01:00:06,089 --> 01:00:06,989
So, yeah.

1152
01:00:07,589 --> 01:00:10,009
That's, you know, a half a million dollar block.

1153
01:00:11,329 --> 01:00:12,249
It happened today.

1154
01:00:16,929 --> 01:00:17,689
I don't know.

1155
01:00:17,749 --> 01:00:18,389
It's hard to say.

1156
01:00:20,509 --> 01:00:21,889
You would think the precedent

1157
01:00:21,889 --> 01:00:22,789
would mean

1158
01:00:23,389 --> 01:00:26,469
everyone would move to the more restrictive rules.

1159
01:00:28,829 --> 01:00:32,729
But it's possible that it could go the other way too.

1160
01:00:33,609 --> 01:00:35,049
Probably not, though, because I don't think

1161
01:00:35,049 --> 01:00:36,789
mining pools upgrade right away.

1162
01:00:36,789 --> 01:00:40,389
So it would probably be something that got noticed.

1163
01:00:40,849 --> 01:00:42,529
Obviously, it would get noticed a lot faster.

1164
01:00:43,309 --> 01:00:47,229
And probably it would get resolved that much faster,

1165
01:00:47,289 --> 01:00:47,749
I would think.

1166
01:00:48,909 --> 01:00:52,749
How would the economic loss to a party or whatever,

1167
01:00:52,749 --> 01:00:54,349
how would that be dealt with do you think

1168
01:00:54,349 --> 01:00:58,129
I don't think it wouldn't be dealt with

1169
01:00:58,129 --> 01:00:59,729
it'd be just a loss

1170
01:00:59,729 --> 01:01:02,989
sorry you didn't really mine this block

1171
01:01:02,989 --> 01:01:04,329
is that kind of how it would occur

1172
01:01:04,329 --> 01:01:06,529
that kind of happens occasionally anyway

1173
01:01:06,529 --> 01:01:08,089
stale blocks

1174
01:01:08,089 --> 01:01:10,169
sometimes two miners find the same

1175
01:01:10,169 --> 01:01:12,529
block height at the same time and only one of them

1176
01:01:12,529 --> 01:01:13,649
can prevail in the end

1177
01:01:13,649 --> 01:01:15,409
so that's just

1178
01:01:15,409 --> 01:01:18,069
to an extent kind of just

1179
01:01:18,069 --> 01:01:20,409
one of the risks that miners take

1180
01:01:20,409 --> 01:01:21,689
interesting

1181
01:01:21,689 --> 01:01:25,009
the sooner miners notice that they're mining

1182
01:01:25,009 --> 01:01:26,869
in battle blocks the quicker they

1183
01:01:26,869 --> 01:01:27,729
connect on it

1184
01:01:27,729 --> 01:01:31,069
there's been a lot

1185
01:01:31,069 --> 01:01:32,829
of talk I've been watching on

1186
01:01:32,829 --> 01:01:34,889
X about filters

1187
01:01:34,889 --> 01:01:36,449
this idea of filtering filters

1188
01:01:36,449 --> 01:01:37,629
you know if

1189
01:01:37,629 --> 01:01:40,769
even if like 5%

1190
01:01:40,769 --> 01:01:42,909
of the network is running

1191
01:01:42,909 --> 01:01:44,689
the new Bitcoin core V30 and

1192
01:01:44,689 --> 01:01:46,589
95% would be running NOTS

1193
01:01:46,589 --> 01:01:49,169
that's like 1 out of every 20 blocks

1194
01:01:49,169 --> 01:01:49,669
would be

1195
01:01:49,669 --> 01:01:51,529
put forward

1196
01:01:51,529 --> 01:01:56,429
by a core implementation that could include a bunch of JPEGs or whatever,

1197
01:01:56,909 --> 01:01:59,249
at that point, it would go onto the chain,

1198
01:01:59,629 --> 01:02:02,289
and then all of the Notts nodes would still have to accept that, right?

1199
01:02:02,329 --> 01:02:03,369
Is that kind of how that works?

1200
01:02:03,749 --> 01:02:04,969
Yeah, to a large extent.

1201
01:02:05,209 --> 01:02:05,729
To a large extent.

1202
01:02:05,749 --> 01:02:09,789
It's still 95% better than if it was all the blocks.

1203
01:02:10,549 --> 01:02:13,809
Why do you say it's 95% better than if it was all the blocks?

1204
01:02:14,189 --> 01:02:17,909
Because 95 out of 100 blocks would not have the spam

1205
01:02:17,909 --> 01:02:20,709
and would have the legitimate transactions that the spam is.

1206
01:02:20,709 --> 01:02:32,349
So, okay, so you're saying that, you know, then it would just be a slower, basically the blockchain would be two meg, you know, two, it would follow the smaller block size and then occasionally have one bloated block.

1207
01:02:32,449 --> 01:02:33,949
So it wouldn't grow as quickly.

1208
01:02:34,129 --> 01:02:34,549
That's okay.

1209
01:02:34,649 --> 01:02:35,329
I see what you're saying.

1210
01:02:35,649 --> 01:02:40,309
But it wouldn't, it wouldn't solve the, from preventing that from coming on chain.

1211
01:02:40,349 --> 01:02:42,909
It would just kind of slow it, I guess would be the.

1212
01:02:43,009 --> 01:02:43,869
It would rate limit it.

1213
01:02:44,009 --> 01:02:46,049
And that's really the best you can do with spam.

1214
01:02:46,309 --> 01:02:46,549
Okay.

1215
01:02:47,009 --> 01:02:47,309
Gotcha.

1216
01:02:47,389 --> 01:02:47,769
Makes sense.

1217
01:02:47,769 --> 01:02:50,889
So it's still a valuable potentiality.

1218
01:02:51,009 --> 01:02:54,749
The biggest issue with Core30 is not so much the spam risk

1219
01:02:54,749 --> 01:02:57,449
as much as it is the intended data use case,

1220
01:02:57,709 --> 01:03:01,569
which is what makes the illegal data a problem.

1221
01:03:02,069 --> 01:03:03,189
Intended data use case.

1222
01:03:03,249 --> 01:03:04,149
Can you explain that?

1223
01:03:04,869 --> 01:03:05,269
What do you say?

1224
01:03:05,369 --> 01:03:08,549
Treating data storage as if it's a supported use case

1225
01:03:08,549 --> 01:03:12,229
and having a specific standard way of doing data storage

1226
01:03:12,229 --> 01:03:13,769
on the Bitcoin blockchain.

1227
01:03:14,369 --> 01:03:14,649
Okay.

1228
01:03:16,049 --> 01:03:16,609
Interesting.

1229
01:03:16,609 --> 01:03:18,389
because it's one thing

1230
01:03:18,389 --> 01:03:20,209
spammers like I mentioned have to

1231
01:03:20,209 --> 01:03:22,549
bypass all the rules and find ways to

1232
01:03:22,549 --> 01:03:24,209
sneak around and

1233
01:03:24,209 --> 01:03:26,569
change their data into something

1234
01:03:26,569 --> 01:03:28,809
else, transactions, and then change it back

1235
01:03:28,809 --> 01:03:30,229
when they want to look at the data

1236
01:03:30,229 --> 01:03:32,589
it's another thing if Bitcoin

1237
01:03:32,589 --> 01:03:34,469
itself now supports

1238
01:03:34,469 --> 01:03:36,649
storing data and they don't

1239
01:03:36,649 --> 01:03:38,329
have to do anything special

1240
01:03:38,329 --> 01:03:40,249
they can just say we're storing data this

1241
01:03:40,249 --> 01:03:42,709
way that's now officially

1242
01:03:42,709 --> 01:03:44,629
standard for the network

1243
01:03:44,629 --> 01:03:46,189
and you're saying like in your

1244
01:03:46,189 --> 01:03:51,969
and core v30 made that possible right okay whereas it wasn't possible before but it was

1245
01:03:51,969 --> 01:03:56,349
still happening it just was harder is that my understanding of it before they had to modify

1246
01:03:56,349 --> 01:04:02,549
their data hide it as something it wasn't okay and then change it back later uh-huh but with

1247
01:04:02,549 --> 01:04:07,369
core 30 now they can just drop it in the chain and it's an official supported way of storing data

1248
01:04:07,369 --> 01:04:12,149
so are you talking about like before it had to be like a simple proof like a hash and then they'd

1249
01:04:12,149 --> 01:04:15,329
have to take the hash and then convert it back to something else is that what you're saying or

1250
01:04:15,329 --> 01:04:19,069
They would have to take it and make it look like it's payments to someone else.

1251
01:04:19,369 --> 01:04:20,249
Okay, gotcha.

1252
01:04:20,629 --> 01:04:23,769
Now they can just say, drop it in, this is data storage.

1253
01:04:24,089 --> 01:04:25,489
Okay, I see what you're saying.

1254
01:04:25,549 --> 01:04:27,189
That's the only way to see that data.

1255
01:04:27,289 --> 01:04:29,049
You can't see it as a transaction.

1256
01:04:29,249 --> 01:04:29,449
Okay.

1257
01:04:30,329 --> 01:04:35,469
Is there, I guess I'll go back to that solution that I was thinking of

1258
01:04:35,469 --> 01:04:38,549
and that was kind of brought up a little bit.

1259
01:04:38,729 --> 01:04:40,629
Is there a way to have two different nodes

1260
01:04:40,629 --> 01:04:42,969
where you've got this type of node

1261
01:04:42,969 --> 01:04:45,829
that you can only have financial data

1262
01:04:45,829 --> 01:04:48,389
and that the network itself will actively,

1263
01:04:49,169 --> 01:04:50,529
if you run that type of node,

1264
01:04:50,609 --> 01:04:51,769
it will prune all of this stuff.

1265
01:04:51,989 --> 01:04:53,689
And you can run a full Bitcoin node

1266
01:04:53,689 --> 01:04:56,229
without having to store any of the arbitrary stuff.

1267
01:04:56,269 --> 01:04:56,989
And then you can have a secondary.

1268
01:04:57,209 --> 01:04:58,569
Because I know some other blockchains do this

1269
01:04:58,569 --> 01:05:00,529
where they've got different types of nodes.

1270
01:05:02,209 --> 01:05:05,669
Bitcoin nodes have supported pruning for years now.

1271
01:05:05,749 --> 01:05:05,969
Okay.

1272
01:05:06,349 --> 01:05:08,369
But you can't have everyone pruning

1273
01:05:08,369 --> 01:05:09,969
or the system just doesn't work.

1274
01:05:09,969 --> 01:05:10,409
Okay.

1275
01:05:10,629 --> 01:05:37,869
But I mean, if the core team put it together where, if they made it actually so, you know, there was this bucket where, you know, anything that's non-financial went into this bucket and then everything else went into the main bucket, like, would it be a possible solution to the problem to just have people run, people can choose whether they want to run a node that takes into account everything, or they could run this node that 100% always will enforce none of that.

1276
01:05:37,869 --> 01:05:40,809
It would solve the intentional data storage issue.

1277
01:05:40,969 --> 01:05:44,869
It would not solve the spam issue because it requires the spammers to

1278
01:05:44,869 --> 01:05:45,889
cooperate.

1279
01:05:47,149 --> 01:05:49,069
But then you could actually,

1280
01:05:49,289 --> 01:05:53,289
you could really try to tackle that problem anytime something came up to try

1281
01:05:53,289 --> 01:05:54,629
to, to try to, you know,

1282
01:05:54,629 --> 01:05:56,889
have the core team really focus on that to patch it.

1283
01:05:56,909 --> 01:05:58,809
Cause you were saying before they would historically do that.

1284
01:05:59,049 --> 01:06:00,589
If there was an exploit that came up,

1285
01:06:00,609 --> 01:06:02,049
they would fix that in the next release.

1286
01:06:02,549 --> 01:06:04,869
You could kind of get everybody aligned to say, Hey, this,

1287
01:06:04,869 --> 01:06:10,869
this part is purely financial and anytime any kind of spam exploit pops up we patch it instantly i

1288
01:06:10,869 --> 01:06:14,949
mean they can already patch it it's just that the people that have taken control of the

1289
01:06:14,949 --> 01:06:23,009
the github project are bad actors like they are not looking out for bitcoin's interests

1290
01:06:23,009 --> 01:06:28,409
they have some ulterior motives the people that took that have basically taken control of core

1291
01:06:28,409 --> 01:06:29,029
Is that what you're saying?

1292
01:06:29,189 --> 01:06:29,329
Right.

1293
01:06:29,769 --> 01:06:30,009
Okay.

1294
01:06:32,289 --> 01:06:36,089
Who is in control of that right now?

1295
01:06:37,009 --> 01:06:40,169
And are you just saying that because you disagree with them

1296
01:06:40,169 --> 01:06:42,269
or are you saying it because you actually think they're bad people?

1297
01:06:42,469 --> 01:06:43,949
I mean, can you unpack what you mean there?

1298
01:06:44,169 --> 01:06:47,989
I mean, I tend to assume good faith as much as I can.

1299
01:06:48,289 --> 01:06:49,949
But after so many years of this

1300
01:06:49,949 --> 01:06:52,969
and going in the exact opposite direction,

1301
01:06:53,109 --> 01:06:56,769
it's really pretty much impossible to assume good faith at this point.

1302
01:06:56,769 --> 01:06:59,969
There's no explanation other than that they're malicious.

1303
01:07:00,669 --> 01:07:04,589
So you are adamant that there's just not a disagreement

1304
01:07:04,589 --> 01:07:05,889
about the way that things should be run?

1305
01:07:05,949 --> 01:07:08,769
You think it's just a malicious attack on Bitcoin

1306
01:07:08,769 --> 01:07:11,569
or just taking Bitcoin in a direction you don't agree with?

1307
01:07:11,929 --> 01:07:14,409
No, it's definitely a malicious attack at this point.

1308
01:07:14,669 --> 01:07:15,849
So you think these are bad?

1309
01:07:16,649 --> 01:07:16,869
Yeah.

1310
01:07:17,329 --> 01:07:19,189
I mean, they hit it pretty well.

1311
01:07:20,069 --> 01:07:22,589
I don't know if they hit it pretty well or I'm just too naive.

1312
01:07:24,389 --> 01:07:26,649
I don't know how you could give your life to Bitcoin.

1313
01:07:26,649 --> 01:07:33,269
actions last year leave no doubt left and those actions to you were what the the changes in core

1314
01:07:33,269 --> 01:07:41,549
30 the changes actively making it easier to spam and making it a supported use case okay because i

1315
01:07:41,549 --> 01:07:46,469
know i know there's you know many people on good people that i know on both sides of this equation

1316
01:07:46,469 --> 01:07:51,509
that think you know that tend to agree with you and then there's people i respect on the other side

1317
01:07:51,509 --> 01:07:53,469
that agree more with core.

1318
01:07:54,209 --> 01:07:56,029
And I know those people aren't malicious people.

1319
01:07:56,469 --> 01:07:57,209
I know them personally.

1320
01:07:57,569 --> 01:07:58,729
They just have a different opinion.

1321
01:07:59,329 --> 01:08:00,909
Do you think that's a possibility here?

1322
01:08:02,169 --> 01:08:03,509
Not if they know the facts.

1323
01:08:03,889 --> 01:08:04,809
Not if they know the facts.

1324
01:08:05,809 --> 01:08:07,349
I mean, it was one thing when

1325
01:08:07,349 --> 01:08:10,469
they just weren't updating the spam filters

1326
01:08:10,469 --> 01:08:13,729
because they had excuses like

1327
01:08:13,729 --> 01:08:14,869
they didn't want to spend the time

1328
01:08:14,869 --> 01:08:16,349
reviewing the code and stuff.

1329
01:08:16,889 --> 01:08:19,569
But it's another thing to actively make it easier

1330
01:08:19,569 --> 01:08:21,849
for the data storage and the spam

1331
01:08:21,849 --> 01:08:26,149
when there's already filters that are working.

1332
01:08:28,310 --> 01:08:28,829
Interesting.

1333
01:08:32,669 --> 01:08:33,589
11 kids.

1334
01:08:33,789 --> 01:08:35,389
So how many kids do you have so far?

1335
01:08:35,810 --> 01:08:36,329
I've got three.

1336
01:08:37,149 --> 01:08:38,389
I'm about to have a third.

1337
01:08:39,149 --> 01:08:39,629
Congrats.

1338
01:08:40,029 --> 01:08:40,629
Thank you, my man.

1339
01:08:41,230 --> 01:08:45,909
How has being a father shaped how you are,

1340
01:08:45,949 --> 01:08:46,869
who you are as a man?

1341
01:08:48,369 --> 01:08:49,089
I don't know.

1342
01:08:49,569 --> 01:08:50,149
You don't know?

1343
01:08:53,589 --> 01:08:54,889
Is it tough with 11 kids?

1344
01:08:56,029 --> 01:08:57,709
No, there's only eight at home at the moment.

1345
01:08:57,770 --> 01:08:58,969
Only eight at home at the moment, yeah.

1346
01:08:59,509 --> 01:09:00,889
It's tough for me with two right now.

1347
01:09:01,089 --> 01:09:01,669
I don't know how you have to do it.

1348
01:09:01,669 --> 01:09:02,509
Well, two is the hardest.

1349
01:09:04,129 --> 01:09:07,129
Some people say three, but in my case, it was two.

1350
01:09:08,089 --> 01:09:11,770
So hopefully it'll get easier for you once this baby's born.

1351
01:09:11,869 --> 01:09:16,909
That's a pretty bullish action for the future.

1352
01:09:17,129 --> 01:09:19,069
So you come off as a little pessimistic,

1353
01:09:19,069 --> 01:09:20,690
but I think you're pretty bullish on the inside.

1354
01:09:22,690 --> 01:09:24,529
I tend to be more of a realist.

1355
01:09:24,749 --> 01:09:25,429
More of a realist?

1356
01:09:25,690 --> 01:09:26,249
I don't know, man.

1357
01:09:26,270 --> 01:09:28,169
11 kids is like, I'm bullish on...

1358
01:09:28,169 --> 01:09:29,770
That's a call option on the future, my man.

1359
01:09:30,169 --> 01:09:30,829
It's not a choice.

1360
01:09:33,029 --> 01:09:35,730
But would I be working on Bitcoin if I was a pessimist?

1361
01:09:37,270 --> 01:09:37,989
That's a good point.

1362
01:09:38,310 --> 01:09:38,829
I don't think so.

1363
01:09:39,829 --> 01:09:40,749
I'm just realistic.

1364
01:09:40,929 --> 01:09:42,529
I see the risks, the chances,

1365
01:09:42,749 --> 01:09:46,810
and I do my best to address the issues that we're facing.

1366
01:09:46,810 --> 01:10:03,690
No, I mean, I think it's really admirable how much you care about Bitcoin. And I think that it's important to have diverse viewpoints. And that's the whole point of open source projects, right? You've got everything out in the open and people can debate and have a discussion.

1367
01:10:03,690 --> 01:10:10,909
And, you know, hopefully people are coming from the right, like their hearts in the right place, I guess, is what I'm getting at.

1368
01:10:11,709 --> 01:10:12,690
You know, I hope you're wrong.

1369
01:10:12,909 --> 01:10:19,089
That would be very disappointing if, you know, people were actively trying to sabotage Bitcoin that were involved in the project.

1370
01:10:19,249 --> 01:10:24,529
I mean, to me, it doesn't make any sense why you would be involved in a project if you were actively trying to sabotage it.

1371
01:10:24,609 --> 01:10:25,969
I just, for what reason?

1372
01:10:26,989 --> 01:10:31,049
So I'm hoping that you can't sabotage a project unless you get involved in it.

1373
01:10:31,569 --> 01:10:32,429
True, true.

1374
01:10:32,429 --> 01:10:39,169
Well, I mean, there's been many people that have tried to sabotage Bitcoin over the years that have not been involved in it.

1375
01:10:39,310 --> 01:10:41,469
So they've tried and they failed.

1376
01:10:41,690 --> 01:10:41,709
Fair.

1377
01:10:42,589 --> 01:10:43,909
I know plenty of them.

1378
01:10:45,429 --> 01:10:46,649
Let's see here.

1379
01:10:47,169 --> 01:10:52,329
That's probably why this ongoing attack from Core is probably the worst attack we've faced.

1380
01:10:52,829 --> 01:10:57,009
Paul wants me to ask you about Epstein's involvement in Bitcoin Core.

1381
01:10:57,009 --> 01:10:59,810
Is there any merit to that?

1382
01:10:59,810 --> 01:11:04,749
Jeffrey Epstein had indirect financial ties to Bitcoin core development through the donations to the MIT.

1383
01:11:05,949 --> 01:11:06,749
Let's see.

1384
01:11:09,109 --> 01:11:14,509
So this seems like a pretty, from what you're pointing at here, Paul, this seems like a pretty indirect thing.

1385
01:11:14,589 --> 01:11:21,469
He gave to a college and the college gave to some kind of fund that then went around and funded some core developers.

1386
01:11:21,649 --> 01:11:24,649
I don't think that's a direct thing, but maybe you have more knowledge on that.

1387
01:11:24,810 --> 01:11:26,029
I don't know anything about that.

1388
01:11:26,569 --> 01:11:27,749
I don't know anything about it either.

1389
01:11:28,190 --> 01:11:29,190
That would be a spicy take.

1390
01:11:29,190 --> 01:11:34,709
But I mean, could it be true? Maybe. But do I know that it's true? No.

1391
01:11:35,409 --> 01:11:38,810
What did Peter Saddington say the other day? What was it? Maybe.

1392
01:11:38,810 --> 01:11:45,549
The reason I wanted it to be addressed is because it somewhat lends merit.

1393
01:11:45,709 --> 01:11:52,349
It gives merit to the argument that poor may have been compromised, right?

1394
01:11:52,349 --> 01:11:58,529
that there may be active sabotage, you know, in effect,

1395
01:11:58,669 --> 01:12:00,509
and that there may be funding for that.

1396
01:12:00,649 --> 01:12:05,270
So I just wanted to throw that out because that's a recent thing that's come around.

1397
01:12:05,569 --> 01:12:09,609
Yeah, I think it's, I mean, first off, it's less than a million dollars,

1398
01:12:09,810 --> 01:12:12,149
and I don't think he gave it directly to,

1399
01:12:12,529 --> 01:12:15,389
he didn't like give it directly to Bitcoin Core.

1400
01:12:15,489 --> 01:12:18,209
It looks like he donated it to MIT, and then MIT then turned around.

1401
01:12:18,310 --> 01:12:18,709
I got you.

1402
01:12:18,929 --> 01:12:21,209
There's no such thing as giving directly to Bitcoin Core.

1403
01:12:21,829 --> 01:12:23,489
There's no such thing as giving directly to Bitcoin Core.

1404
01:12:23,569 --> 01:12:23,909
Is that what you said?

1405
01:12:23,989 --> 01:12:25,709
Can't you sponsor a developer and stuff like that?

1406
01:12:25,770 --> 01:12:27,989
But then through other organizations like this MIT.

1407
01:12:28,589 --> 01:12:29,169
Okay, I thought.

1408
01:12:29,669 --> 01:12:34,849
Because wasn't this drama recently that MicroStrategy was sponsoring Bitcoin Core devs?

1409
01:12:34,929 --> 01:12:37,249
Or wasn't that a thing recently or a couple years ago?

1410
01:12:37,869 --> 01:12:42,310
MicroStrategy explicitly refused to fund any development.

1411
01:12:42,849 --> 01:12:43,169
That's right.

1412
01:12:43,270 --> 01:12:44,730
Was it Cash App that did it?

1413
01:12:44,730 --> 01:12:47,810
I feel like there was a couple companies recently that had.

1414
01:12:47,829 --> 01:12:49,749
Yeah, there was some ETFs or something.

1415
01:12:49,749 --> 01:12:52,270
companies that were actively sponsoring Bitcoin core developers.

1416
01:12:52,270 --> 01:12:59,669
Yeah, I believe several ETFs announced that they were going to put a certain amount aside

1417
01:12:59,669 --> 01:13:01,810
for developer funding.

1418
01:13:02,089 --> 01:13:07,649
And then I guess Michael Saylor told one of the other ETFs, don't do that.

1419
01:13:07,709 --> 01:13:08,629
And they didn't.

1420
01:13:08,709 --> 01:13:10,549
And that was where the controversy came from.

1421
01:13:11,690 --> 01:13:14,569
In hindsight, maybe he had good reason for that.

1422
01:13:15,389 --> 01:13:17,609
I don't usually talk to like super technical people.

1423
01:13:17,749 --> 01:13:19,230
So this is a rare interview for me.

1424
01:13:19,230 --> 01:13:24,909
So thank you for being patient with me and answering my questions and concerns and thoughts that I've come up with in my mind.

1425
01:13:24,989 --> 01:13:30,609
And hopefully our audience gains more and more understanding from this conversation.

1426
01:13:30,609 --> 01:13:33,369
Even if you're not technical, that would be my hope with this conversation.

1427
01:13:34,589 --> 01:13:39,149
But I think one thing is for sure that, you know, there's a lot of people that care very much about Bitcoin.

1428
01:13:40,669 --> 01:13:45,329
Do you have a final piece of advice or thoughts for anybody, new Bitcoiners, anybody that's getting involved with Bitcoin?

1429
01:13:45,770 --> 01:13:46,909
Do you want to leave our audience with anything?

1430
01:13:49,230 --> 01:13:52,089
it's just a reminder to run your own full node.

1431
01:13:52,289 --> 01:13:54,289
At this point, make sure it's not.

1432
01:13:56,029 --> 01:13:57,730
Where's the best place for people to go

1433
01:13:57,730 --> 01:13:59,169
to learn how to run their own full node?

1434
01:13:59,249 --> 01:14:00,389
Would you just say a YouTube video?

1435
01:14:00,529 --> 01:14:01,169
Is there a specific,

1436
01:14:01,529 --> 01:14:02,469
do you have something on your website

1437
01:14:02,469 --> 01:14:03,310
that's like a tutorial,

1438
01:14:03,489 --> 01:14:04,749
like a video tutorial,

1439
01:14:05,190 --> 01:14:06,369
something along those lines?

1440
01:14:06,749 --> 01:14:07,429
Not really.

1441
01:14:07,749 --> 01:14:07,889
No.

1442
01:14:08,069 --> 01:14:11,230
I try to keep Bitcoin as easy as possible

1443
01:14:11,230 --> 01:14:12,429
to install on a computer.

1444
01:14:14,369 --> 01:14:17,249
Obviously, there's Start9, Umbrella, whatever,

1445
01:14:17,249 --> 01:14:20,649
and sells physical machines if you don't have a computer.

1446
01:14:28,089 --> 01:14:32,349
BitcoinKnotts.org also has a link to a Discord chat group,

1447
01:14:33,289 --> 01:14:37,169
also a Telegram chat group where people discuss it.

1448
01:14:37,409 --> 01:14:38,829
Yeah, we'll put that link in this conversation.

1449
01:14:38,829 --> 01:14:40,789
They have support groups there.

1450
01:14:41,209 --> 01:14:43,389
If you need help with it, you can chat.

1451
01:14:44,009 --> 01:14:46,849
You just have to be aware that there's also scammers hanging out

1452
01:14:46,849 --> 01:14:48,190
waiting to try to scam people.

1453
01:14:48,249 --> 01:14:48,389
Yeah.

1454
01:14:48,549 --> 01:14:49,349
Bullies on all these.

1455
01:14:49,349 --> 01:14:50,429
No matter where you're at,

1456
01:14:50,489 --> 01:14:51,289
they'll always be scammers.

1457
01:14:51,629 --> 01:14:52,149
So, you know,

1458
01:14:52,209 --> 01:14:53,609
a fool and his money is soon parted.

1459
01:14:53,669 --> 01:14:55,349
That's a lesson as old as time.

1460
01:14:55,449 --> 01:14:56,849
And as much as you want to stop that,

1461
01:14:56,909 --> 01:14:57,969
I mean, I think sometimes people

1462
01:14:57,969 --> 01:14:58,810
just have to learn the hard way

1463
01:14:58,810 --> 01:14:59,409
for the first time

1464
01:14:59,409 --> 01:15:00,749
and they'll never happen to you again.

1465
01:15:00,989 --> 01:15:02,069
It's like you pay for your education.

1466
01:15:02,429 --> 01:15:03,929
If you join and I DM you,

1467
01:15:04,009 --> 01:15:04,549
it's a scammer.

1468
01:15:06,770 --> 01:15:07,789
Oh man, that's funny.

1469
01:15:07,969 --> 01:15:09,489
Well, Luke Dash Jr.,

1470
01:15:09,489 --> 01:15:10,629
thank you so much for this conversation.

1471
01:15:16,849 --> 01:15:27,829
departments, chief Books on Digital and Plattshire for another plan!