1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,960 The question of who replaces him is a more important one, I think, for the league. 2 00:00:04,560 --> 00:00:09,200 My suspicion is that it'll be a media person. That's where the league is now. 3 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:15,660 It's, you know, two-thirds of its revenue comes from media and sponsorships, not from tickets and beer. 4 00:00:20,580 --> 00:00:29,080 You're listening to The Brian D. O'Leary Show, your sanctuary for serious content in an unserious culture. 5 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:36,140 Brian O'Leary here with you once again. 6 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:42,900 Today we have for you an interview with New York Times writer and author Ken Belson. 7 00:00:43,220 --> 00:00:53,280 Ken wrote a book published on October 14th, 2025, just a few days ago, published by Grand Central Publishing. 8 00:00:53,280 --> 00:01:02,480 It's called Every Day is Sunday, How Jerry Jones, Robert Kraft, and Roger Goodell Turned the NFL into a Cultural and Economic Juggernaut. 9 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:16,620 In the interview, we talk about the book, of course, and we go off on a few tangents, things that you folks, particularly the sports-minded bent, will be interested in. 10 00:01:16,940 --> 00:01:19,840 It's a history of the NFL essentially since about 1993. 11 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:22,680 That's where the book picks up, more or less. 12 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:28,640 And it's a pretty extensive coverage of what's happened. 13 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:35,600 And like I said, the main characters are Jerry Jones, owner of the Dallas Cowboys, 14 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:38,980 Robert Kraft, owner of the New England Patriots, 15 00:01:39,220 --> 00:01:43,920 and Roger Goodell, commissioner of the National Football League. 16 00:01:45,140 --> 00:01:46,580 So it's a good interview. 17 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:52,340 Spend a little more time than we had planned, but for good reason, as you'll see. 18 00:01:52,340 --> 00:01:57,740 I remind you folks to go to O'LearyLetter.com. 19 00:01:57,820 --> 00:01:59,560 That'll get you to our sub stack there. 20 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:02,400 And Brian D. O'Leary on Twitter. 21 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:04,620 And this will be on YouTube also. 22 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:06,540 So at Brian D. O'Leary on both of those. 23 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:07,580 Or all three of those actually. 24 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:13,100 So stay tuned for Ken Belsen. 25 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:14,960 Every day is Sunday. 26 00:02:22,340 --> 00:02:27,260 All right, with Ken Belson here, he's got a new book, Every Day is Sunday, How Jerry 27 00:02:27,260 --> 00:02:31,960 Jones, Robert Kraft, and Roger Goodell Turned the NFL into a Cultural and Economic Juggernaut 28 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:36,120 by Grand Central Publishing, published on October 14th, a few days ago. 29 00:02:37,220 --> 00:02:38,420 All right, so Ken, welcome. 30 00:02:40,020 --> 00:02:42,740 Yeah, I just wanted to get off my chest here. 31 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:48,980 Late in your book, you say, you're quoted here, you're right, podcasts are more compelling 32 00:02:48,980 --> 00:02:50,360 than sports talk radio. 33 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:52,060 So let's make that happen. 34 00:02:52,340 --> 00:03:15,480 All right. So first of all, main question, I think that could set this whole thing up. How did you settle on the three main characters, Jerry Jones, Robert Kraft, Roger Goodell? And were they named in that order specifically, or is that just a matter of language or flow? 35 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:31,640 Well, there's something of a literary answer to this, which is the law of threes. And, you know, if I had five owners, and I easily could have, you'd still be reading the subtitle right now. So I picked three, that's a kind of good number. 36 00:03:31,640 --> 00:03:37,880 but you know I started the book I was thinking of sort of when does the when does this the beginning 37 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:44,900 of what we think of as the modern NFL when does it start it started in 1993 with the labor agreement 38 00:03:44,900 --> 00:03:50,400 that came in that year that that settled years of litigation and you got the free agency players 39 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:56,900 finally got free agency and the owners got a salary cap and most importantly and definitely 40 00:03:56,900 --> 00:04:02,660 underreported was revenue sharing. That was a 50-50 split after that. And that really, 41 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:07,720 from the player's perspective, that made them partners. And so we've had this labor piece, 42 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:14,280 which set the foundation for the big media deals, the big sponsorship deals, the big stadium deals, 43 00:04:14,340 --> 00:04:19,300 all the stuff that's since flowed from that. So I picked 93. So once I started with that historical 44 00:04:19,300 --> 00:04:25,320 sort of benchmark, I look back, well, who was doing the most work then on the owner's side? 45 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:29,160 Dan Rooney, absolutely from the Steelers, and Jerry Jones. 46 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:31,760 Pat Bolin, also in Denver. 47 00:04:32,140 --> 00:04:35,940 Would Rooney and Bolin be those other two that you would possibly? 48 00:04:35,940 --> 00:04:36,160 Yeah. 49 00:04:36,620 --> 00:04:38,320 But they're not as relevant anymore. 50 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:39,640 They're now gone. 51 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:40,760 They're now gone. 52 00:04:40,860 --> 00:04:42,080 Yeah, that was part of it, too. 53 00:04:42,840 --> 00:04:51,920 So Dan Rooney, of course, came up through the 60s and the 70s, you know, and that was really, he was still influential through the early 2000s, but had already crested. 54 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:57,900 so I wanted characters that are still living and and you know still influential to keep the book 55 00:04:57,900 --> 00:05:04,720 contemporary uh but so Jerry was was was a pivotal owner he had come in he was heavily in debt his 56 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:10,060 team was losing a lot of money and he was trying to find new sources of money both in Dallas and 57 00:05:10,060 --> 00:05:15,580 and outside and he was the first to look at the media deals the way the NFL used to do them they 58 00:05:15,580 --> 00:05:17,800 You used to have CBS and was the NFC. 59 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:21,420 NBC was covering the AFC. 60 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:22,620 And then you had Monday Night Football. 61 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:24,300 And that was pretty much it. 62 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:28,020 And Jerry said, well, why do we only have three bidders for three packages? 63 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:30,120 Why don't we get some other bidders in here? 64 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:30,940 That's just standard. 65 00:05:31,100 --> 00:05:32,760 Like, let's get a bidding war going. 66 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:35,920 So he had already been in contact with Rupert Murdoch. 67 00:05:36,380 --> 00:05:40,020 And he said to Rupert, if you come in, we'll take you seriously. 68 00:05:40,020 --> 00:05:44,020 And that really changed the dynamic dramatically. 69 00:05:44,020 --> 00:05:46,680 because Rupert said, I don't care what it costs. 70 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:50,120 I need football to make me legitimate as a network. 71 00:05:50,580 --> 00:05:54,900 And so he overpaid $100 million more than CBS per year, 72 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:56,880 and he blew them out of the water. 73 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:00,000 And suddenly the economics of the media, television media, 74 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:03,400 went from let's break even, let's make some money in a good year, 75 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:05,360 to this is a loss leader. 76 00:06:06,020 --> 00:06:06,760 And guess what? 77 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:09,980 The NBA looked at that, MLB looked at that, 78 00:06:10,020 --> 00:06:12,420 and they said, hmm, maybe we need some more bidders. 79 00:06:12,420 --> 00:06:17,160 So that was Jerry Jones's big contribution then in that 93, 94 window. 80 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:19,320 And then Robert comes in right then. 81 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:25,380 He had been part owner of an affiliate, CBS affiliate in Boston, and he understood the media. 82 00:06:25,500 --> 00:06:30,660 He had connections to Mel Karmazin, you know, other CBS officials. 83 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:32,980 And so he was a real schmoozer. 84 00:06:33,140 --> 00:06:35,600 He knew how to get them hyped on the NFL. 85 00:06:35,840 --> 00:06:38,840 Of course, at this point, they knew they couldn't do without the NFL. 86 00:06:39,420 --> 00:06:41,640 So really, those two guys were pivotal then. 87 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:45,700 And then, of course, I was able to trace them all the way through the arc of the book to today. 88 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:48,820 Yeah, it's wonderful way that you do that. 89 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:52,860 I wanted to talk about Jerry Jones real quick. 90 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:59,760 He is maligned, to say the least, in almost all media. 91 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:05,460 If you're not a Cowboys fan, and even if you are a Cowboys fan, you probably don't like Jerry Jones. 92 00:07:05,460 --> 00:07:10,860 I came away reading this book with an odd new respect for Jerry Jones. 93 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:30,720 Yeah, it depends on the lens you have, right? So I'm a business writer, let's just say that. So I'm looking at it from what has he done business-wise, and it's hard to argue with his success. It's a $10 billion franchise now. He made the first franchise to make a billion dollars in operating revenue, according to Forbes. 94 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:37,180 he's printing money. I mean, the title of that chapter is, I love to stick that Cowboys peanut 95 00:07:37,180 --> 00:07:43,060 butter on everything. You know, anything that's not nailed down, he'll try and sell it. Carmen 96 00:07:43,060 --> 00:07:47,760 Policy is quoted in the book, the former president of the 49ers. And he said, Jerry taught us how to 97 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:54,820 sell. And, you know, the NFL was big when Jerry arrived, but it wasn't really big. And Jerry was, 98 00:07:55,020 --> 00:08:00,300 he is a relentless seller. There's a great quote from Robert Kraft. You know, I talked about their 99 00:08:00,300 --> 00:08:07,280 different styles. And Robert was talking about Jerry's sort of unflappable spirit for new 100 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:13,940 ventures. And he said he could charm a dog off a meat truck. That's who Jerry is. He lives out 101 00:08:13,940 --> 00:08:20,880 there. He's a salesman. He probably sells too much. And his methodology has certainly rubbed 102 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:26,540 the owners the wrong way at times. But he wants to make money. His son, interestingly, because I've 103 00:08:26,540 --> 00:08:31,680 often thought like how much is enough right you already got 10 billion dollars do you need 10 more 104 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:38,200 10 billion more and his son was quoted as saying it's not the money it's the chase and that's who 105 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:45,600 jerry is he he is a charmer he can't stop he can't help himself uh in contrast uh robert craft is 106 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:51,320 very wealthy also and very successful but it's more of a diplomat he's more about how do we take 107 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:57,700 all these ideas and have a win-win-win solution to where everybody walks away with something. 108 00:08:58,220 --> 00:08:59,580 And that's more of Robert's skill. 109 00:09:01,220 --> 00:09:01,280 Yeah. 110 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:08,120 And you mentioned a lot of, you don't mention every single owner that's been in the game 111 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:13,760 for years, but you have a, sounds like you have a profound respect for the, what I'll 112 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:23,120 called the old guard, the Roonies, the Mike Brown, Al Davis, to some degree, the Hallis family, 113 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:34,200 the Roonies, of course, the Maras. And these guys, Jones and Kraft, came in and upset the apple cart 114 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:43,000 to a large degree. And maybe Kraft, not so much, because maybe we can get into this. The way Kraft 115 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:50,220 acquired the Patriots. I went to school in Boston and I was aware of a lot of the things, 116 00:09:50,220 --> 00:09:58,500 like how Kraft acquired the team, but the brilliance of his strategy is you got to think 117 00:09:58,500 --> 00:10:04,940 back in the mid nineties, he had acquired the team through a lot of these. Well, we'll get to 118 00:10:04,940 --> 00:10:11,600 that in a second, but he, he was about to move the team twice. He wanted to move to a stadium in 119 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:16,940 south boston the neighbors went apoplectic well they probably should have because now like all the 120 00:10:16,940 --> 00:10:23,040 south boston neighborhood is no longer the south boston people whatever but and then he had a deal 121 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:30,680 to go to hartford but the way he acquired the patriots was he acquired all the parking around 122 00:10:30,680 --> 00:10:37,360 it around foxborough stadium which is probably one of the worst locations in sports for a stadium but 123 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:40,960 That being said, he acquired all the land around it. 124 00:10:41,660 --> 00:10:45,520 And when the owner, what is it? 125 00:10:45,560 --> 00:10:48,440 James Orthwine out of St. Louis, Bush family heir. 126 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:53,840 When he tried to move the team to St. Louis before the Rams moved. 127 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:56,740 Kraft was like, no, sorry, buddy. 128 00:10:56,900 --> 00:11:00,400 You owe rent until 2021. 129 00:11:01,620 --> 00:11:02,740 And so 2001. 130 00:11:03,020 --> 00:11:03,140 Yeah. 131 00:11:03,220 --> 00:11:03,440 Yeah. 132 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:04,700 Or 2001. 133 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:05,160 Sorry. 134 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:05,800 Yeah. 135 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:14,240 He had him over a barrel and it would have cost him more than probably the franchise in paying rent in an empty stadium. 136 00:11:14,940 --> 00:11:16,500 So Kraft put together a deal. 137 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:20,200 And that was, I thought, one of the most brilliant sports business moves of all time. 138 00:11:20,860 --> 00:11:22,040 Yeah, it shows. 139 00:11:22,180 --> 00:11:25,100 I mean, first of all, Kraft was in it for the long term, right? 140 00:11:25,460 --> 00:11:41,865 The Sullivan family was always on its worst run franchise as you said The stadium was terrible the location was terrible the sullivans were always broke they were fighting with each other uh and then uh victor kayem comes in the old remington razor guy a real he was not a local 141 00:11:41,865 --> 00:11:48,185 um and really made a hash of the whole thing but as you said robert was smart he bought the land 142 00:11:48,185 --> 00:11:54,025 first and and the parking revenue so now there was one leg of the financial stool was knocked out 143 00:11:54,025 --> 00:12:00,385 from the owner. And then eventually the stadium was up. The Sullivan's couldn't afford the stadium 144 00:12:00,385 --> 00:12:05,125 anymore. So they put that up for sale. So then he bought that. And by the time Victor Kayyem comes in, 145 00:12:05,225 --> 00:12:10,445 all he's got is the team. He's got tickets, basically. He doesn't have the hot dogs and beer. 146 00:12:10,545 --> 00:12:15,445 He doesn't have the parking. And he has the whatever the shared revenue was from the league. 147 00:12:15,925 --> 00:12:21,225 So he basically and he had this lease that that obligated him to be the primary tenant through the 148 00:12:21,225 --> 00:12:27,405 end of the century. So when Victor Kayyem yells uncle and Orthwine comes in, he thinks, well, 149 00:12:27,605 --> 00:12:32,365 I'll get the team and move it to St. Louis, the same issue. Can't leave. He didn't want to have 150 00:12:32,365 --> 00:12:37,545 a lawsuit with Kraft and eventually he sold. So Kraft was very deliberate. That was a, 151 00:12:38,005 --> 00:12:41,585 let me think about that, that was about a seven or an eight year process. That's what I mean by 152 00:12:41,585 --> 00:12:46,705 long game. And, you know, he wasn't leaving Boston. You talked about the sweetheart deal 153 00:12:46,705 --> 00:12:53,885 in Hartford. And that really was a sweetheart deal. I mean, it was unbelievable how, what the 154 00:12:53,885 --> 00:12:58,625 state of Connecticut was willing to give him, but ultimately he's a Boston guy. And I think he wanted 155 00:12:58,625 --> 00:13:05,565 to stay. He also had a deal dangled from Providence. So, and he, there was that South Boston 156 00:13:05,565 --> 00:13:11,225 thing that was handled poorly and there was a lot of politics involved in local politics. 157 00:13:11,225 --> 00:13:23,385 So Boston Irish. Yeah. Imagine that. You know, it's funny because he grew up in Boston, but he's still considered to the old Boston establishment to be a newcomer, you know. 158 00:13:23,385 --> 00:13:31,385 And so there's a lot of jealousy there and God knows what else. But he got the stadium built and they won six titles. You can't compete with success. 159 00:13:32,365 --> 00:13:41,145 The other thing he was interesting, we're talking about real estate when he built the stadium in Foxborough, the new stadium in Foxborough, he put Patriot Place around it. 160 00:13:41,225 --> 00:13:45,925 And that was fairly novel to say, you know what, who else is going to Foxborough? 161 00:13:45,925 --> 00:13:56,325 Let's build movie theater, restaurant, shopping and medical facilities and really turn it into something and use the power of the Patriots brand for real estate. 162 00:13:56,645 --> 00:14:02,945 And it's worth noting for your listeners, that's the revenue that is not shared amongst the other 31 owners. 163 00:14:03,645 --> 00:14:05,965 So Robert realized that I got this this asset. 164 00:14:05,965 --> 00:14:11,265 that I only use it 12 times a year and then, you know, some other events, concerts. 165 00:14:11,625 --> 00:14:15,105 But boy, I could use the Patriots brand to make a lot more money. 166 00:14:15,405 --> 00:14:17,385 And Jerry Jones has taken in Rome with that. 167 00:14:17,485 --> 00:14:21,185 New stadiums coming in in Cleveland eventually, Nashville. 168 00:14:21,405 --> 00:14:22,705 They're all doing the same thing now. 169 00:14:23,745 --> 00:14:26,545 And it's mushroomed into other sports, too. 170 00:14:26,705 --> 00:14:32,645 I mean, even the Red Sox, they've bought and developed all around Fenway Park and inside Fenway Park. 171 00:14:32,645 --> 00:14:41,545 The Braves are the case in the big leagues for doing a similar thing in their area. 172 00:14:41,965 --> 00:14:48,885 In San Francisco, the Giants, all that real estate across McCovey Cove, super valuable. 173 00:14:49,045 --> 00:14:50,505 Visa put its headquarters there. 174 00:14:50,945 --> 00:14:52,285 Again, that's not shared revenue. 175 00:14:52,905 --> 00:14:55,025 The Giant owners are a lot wealthier. 176 00:14:55,525 --> 00:15:01,185 And private equity now sees teams partly as a vehicle for real estate and other things. 177 00:15:01,185 --> 00:15:06,785 So, yeah, there's people are always finding new ways to mint sports franchises. 178 00:15:07,145 --> 00:15:12,045 Yeah. Like to stick on the Patriots here for a second. 179 00:15:13,085 --> 00:15:24,845 You mentioned that during that whole time where, you know, Parcells left under really horrible terms, I was there. 180 00:15:24,925 --> 00:15:28,685 They had gone to the Super Bowl, win the Super Bowl, and everybody knew he was leaving. 181 00:15:28,685 --> 00:15:31,645 what was going to happen to the franchise after that. 182 00:15:31,725 --> 00:15:34,505 They end up hiring Pete Carroll, former head coach of the Jets. 183 00:15:34,505 --> 00:15:37,165 It was turned into a success when maybe this year, not with the Raiders, 184 00:15:37,285 --> 00:15:42,045 but I mean, great football coach, but he gets fired after a couple of years. 185 00:15:43,265 --> 00:15:46,825 And then you have this situation with the New York Jets. 186 00:15:46,845 --> 00:15:48,565 You talk about it a little bit in the book. 187 00:15:48,565 --> 00:15:53,045 And I'm always curious about this because I'm wondering if you have any insight 188 00:15:53,045 --> 00:15:58,645 or allowed to tell your insight, because the story I've heard is that 189 00:15:58,645 --> 00:16:04,465 you know you've seen bill bell bill belichick interviewed several times about this and he's 190 00:16:04,465 --> 00:16:08,685 like the ownership was in flux you had leon has so you mentioned several times in the book 191 00:16:08,685 --> 00:16:17,225 and then it the there's i don't even know what the situation was they didn't know who the owner 192 00:16:17,225 --> 00:16:23,685 or the heirs or were going to be this ownership situation was in flux so belichick sees this he 193 00:16:23,685 --> 00:16:31,405 said this is his story anyway he says that uh i i can't i can't do this because it's just so crazy 194 00:16:31,405 --> 00:16:39,685 he writes his resignation letter literally on a napkin i resign as hc of the nyj and it's over 195 00:16:39,685 --> 00:16:48,985 and then craft signs him a couple days later now my question here is number one is that is that true 196 00:16:48,985 --> 00:16:50,385 with the ownership situation. 197 00:16:50,485 --> 00:16:51,185 I imagine it is. 198 00:16:51,545 --> 00:16:53,185 But two, was there any tampering 199 00:16:53,185 --> 00:16:55,325 going on behind the scenes 200 00:16:55,325 --> 00:17:00,345 with the Patriots and Belichick's camp? 201 00:17:01,125 --> 00:17:03,165 Yeah, it's good questions. 202 00:17:03,705 --> 00:17:06,205 The issue with Leon Hess is real. 203 00:17:06,745 --> 00:17:08,305 The team was going to be put up for, 204 00:17:08,305 --> 00:17:09,765 his estate was selling it. 205 00:17:10,285 --> 00:17:12,245 Who knows whether the new owner, 206 00:17:12,445 --> 00:17:13,105 whoever that was, 207 00:17:13,185 --> 00:17:14,205 turned out to be Woody Johnson, 208 00:17:14,605 --> 00:17:15,785 would want Belichick. 209 00:17:16,785 --> 00:17:20,445 You know, if you're a head coach and a new owner comes in, 210 00:17:20,665 --> 00:17:22,745 the new owner might say, I want my own people. 211 00:17:24,085 --> 00:17:26,725 Because Parcells was still in charge of the organization 212 00:17:26,725 --> 00:17:29,965 on the football operations side, and he was running that, yeah. 213 00:17:30,285 --> 00:17:33,025 Yeah, but it's perfectly understandable for a new owner 214 00:17:33,025 --> 00:17:34,265 to come in and clean house. 215 00:17:35,485 --> 00:17:39,585 I could see it from that perspective why Belichick wouldn't want to wait around 216 00:17:39,585 --> 00:17:40,285 to find out. 217 00:17:40,605 --> 00:17:43,265 He might end up being a lame duck coach after one season. 218 00:17:43,265 --> 00:17:57,805 And whether he was tampered with, I don't have that specific evidence, but I find it hard to believe that somebody who at that point wasn't very old, I think he was in his 40s, would simply quit without another job on the horizon. 219 00:17:57,805 --> 00:18:08,045 It was January, you know, beginning of January of 2000 that he did that. I can't believe he didn't know there were openings in a handful of markets. 220 00:18:08,045 --> 00:18:14,825 He already had a relationship with Robert Kraft because he was coaching when Parcells was up in New England, and Kraft liked him. 221 00:18:15,345 --> 00:18:18,985 So whether there was explicit conversations about this, I don't know. 222 00:18:19,085 --> 00:18:30,325 The Jets and Patriots ended up getting in a fight that landed in Paul Tagliabue's office, and there was compensatory draft picks given to the Jets. 223 00:18:30,785 --> 00:18:33,945 But as Steve Gutman, the team president, is quoted in the book, he said, 224 00:18:34,405 --> 00:18:38,325 but boy, they got the coach that beat us like high school kids for the next 20 years. 225 00:18:38,765 --> 00:18:41,545 So in the end, the Jets really got the short end of that. 226 00:18:42,625 --> 00:18:46,545 Belichick, you know, I guess he was right in the sense that he didn't want to stick around 227 00:18:46,545 --> 00:18:50,145 and find out what Woody Johnson would have in mind for him. 228 00:18:50,725 --> 00:18:52,905 And it turned out to be a good fit for the Patriots. 229 00:18:53,225 --> 00:19:00,305 And you mentioned Tagliabue, and this dovetails a little bit what's going on with Belichick now at North Carolina. 230 00:19:00,325 --> 00:19:07,525 you mentioned that Tagliabue said to these owners who are considering hiring him to stay away from 231 00:19:07,525 --> 00:19:14,985 Belichick I'm wondering why that was why was he so toxic then he had a pretty successful run with 232 00:19:14,985 --> 00:19:20,745 the Browns and I would say only in 95 with the Browns the only reason that thing went sideways 233 00:19:20,745 --> 00:19:27,945 or in the toilet was because of Modell announcing the move to Baltimore during the season and there's 234 00:19:27,945 --> 00:19:34,805 a documentary NFL or NFL films or ESPN put out Cleveland 95, I think, and you can find out all 235 00:19:34,805 --> 00:19:42,045 about that. But why did Tagli Boots tell folks to stay away from Belichick? I think Belichick was a 236 00:19:42,045 --> 00:19:47,405 complicated and taciturn guy. We know that now from watching him all these years. I think he was 237 00:19:47,405 --> 00:19:53,085 that way then. I don't know whether he was basically saying don't hire the guy, but he was 238 00:19:53,085 --> 00:19:58,245 saying, you know, tread carefully, I think was probably more his message. The Modell thing was 239 00:19:58,245 --> 00:20:02,465 interesting because Modell actually didn't want to announce it. He wanted to keep it a secret, 240 00:20:02,605 --> 00:20:07,085 which in some ways was worse. It was reminiscent of the Baltimore Colts pulling up the Mayflower 241 00:20:07,085 --> 00:20:15,605 vans to Memorial Stadium back in the 80s. But the Baltimore media sniffed it out because it's on 242 00:20:15,605 --> 00:20:20,645 their end because they know the stadium they had purpose built was going to have a new tenant. And 243 00:20:20,645 --> 00:20:24,265 that's how it got out. It didn't come out from Cleveland. It certainly didn't come out from 244 00:20:24,265 --> 00:20:31,045 Odell. And, and he was, there were death threats. He had to leave town. His, his lawyer, Jim Bailey, 245 00:20:31,045 --> 00:20:36,545 who I spoke to for the book, you know, they had to go back with bodyguards. It was an ugly, ugly 246 00:20:36,545 --> 00:20:42,405 situation. So yeah, I mean, look, the, the, that was a terrible environment to play football that 247 00:20:42,405 --> 00:20:47,345 last season, especially the last half of that season. Fans were in revolt. Garbage was on the 248 00:20:47,345 --> 00:20:52,445 field. Yeah, he suffered, but he did make the playoffs. I believe it was the year before. 249 00:20:53,665 --> 00:20:59,585 So I wouldn't say he was super successful, but he wasn't a bad coach. I think he was a complicated 250 00:20:59,585 --> 00:21:08,385 coach. And, you know, Robert Kraft, you know, produced that Dynasty documentary a year ago, 251 00:21:08,485 --> 00:21:15,405 two years ago. And, you know, Belichick sat for it, but he did not change his image. He still 252 00:21:15,405 --> 00:21:21,285 look like darth vader on camera and uh i'm sure that's partly who he is mainly who he is 253 00:21:21,285 --> 00:21:29,525 all right yeah and i guess with that commissioner tagler begets roger goodell who's been there what 254 00:21:29,525 --> 00:21:37,985 since 2006 in charge of the nfl this is an interesting character i uh didn't know a ton 255 00:21:37,985 --> 00:21:48,925 about Goodell's background, he had a mission from childhood to become the NFL commissioner. 256 00:21:49,405 --> 00:21:55,905 And this could be one of those lessons for young folks who are like, I want to do this 257 00:21:55,905 --> 00:21:57,045 and I'm going to do it. 258 00:21:57,805 --> 00:22:05,505 And my question about Goodell, is his success or his rise to becoming the commissioner anything 259 00:22:05,505 --> 00:22:13,905 other than just pure unfettered ambition or my sense is he has just a tremendous love for the 260 00:22:13,905 --> 00:22:22,245 National Football League but as I got from a lot of these different owners and different you know 261 00:22:22,245 --> 00:22:28,425 people that work within the league and the TV they don't necessarily have a fondness for the game of 262 00:22:28,425 --> 00:22:35,325 football as much as some of these coaches say perhaps or the old guard Rooney's Mara's etc 263 00:22:35,325 --> 00:22:42,765 Mike Brown, Al Davis, et cetera. But tell me a little more about Goodell's path. 264 00:22:44,265 --> 00:22:55,625 Sure. Well, I titled the chapter Senator's Son. He was the third of five sons of a senator, 265 00:22:55,805 --> 00:23:10,451 a U senator who took Robert Kennedy spot here in New York He was a congressman before that And he has that sort of political sensibility I don mean left or right I just mean he knows how to operate politically And that 266 00:23:10,451 --> 00:23:15,731 is something he absorbed from his dad. As a kid, he worked on his father's campaigns, 267 00:23:16,031 --> 00:23:22,031 even as a young kid. And so he's kind of a natural politician in that sense. And yeah, 268 00:23:22,131 --> 00:23:26,471 he got out of college or is getting out of college his senior year. And he wrote to his dad and he 269 00:23:26,471 --> 00:23:28,051 It's just that I, this is my ambition. 270 00:23:28,171 --> 00:23:29,691 I want to be commissioner of the NFL. 271 00:23:30,271 --> 00:23:34,631 I think of all the job searches you could do, you know, that's, that's a pretty narrow 272 00:23:34,631 --> 00:23:34,891 one. 273 00:23:34,951 --> 00:23:35,911 There's only one of them. 274 00:23:36,391 --> 00:23:41,831 So, but you know, he wrote, famously wrote lots of letters to all the teams and eventually 275 00:23:41,831 --> 00:23:43,211 gets noticed by the headquarters. 276 00:23:43,371 --> 00:23:45,191 They bring him in and he was a grunt. 277 00:23:45,311 --> 00:23:47,811 He worked his way up by the nineties. 278 00:23:48,111 --> 00:23:51,651 By the time Tagliabue is there, he's getting more tasks. 279 00:23:52,571 --> 00:24:01,111 Tagabue and his deputy, Neil Austrian, the league president, is now giving a bigger task. 280 00:24:01,211 --> 00:24:01,771 Go to Europe. 281 00:24:02,291 --> 00:24:05,451 We're going to host a game in Berlin after the fall of the Berlin Wall. 282 00:24:05,851 --> 00:24:07,331 We need you to help with the logistics. 283 00:24:07,611 --> 00:24:12,811 He's now helping owners get new stadiums, which turned out to be a very powerful thing to do 284 00:24:12,811 --> 00:24:15,791 because you're helping the people who are ultimately going to hire you. 285 00:24:16,451 --> 00:24:18,311 He was a real go-getter. 286 00:24:18,811 --> 00:24:24,491 I spoke to quite a few people who worked at the NFL then, and some people felt like he was too 287 00:24:24,491 --> 00:24:30,551 nakedly ambitious, you know, too much of a social climber. There was a comment in the book that, 288 00:24:30,911 --> 00:24:34,971 you know, at the owner's meetings, the quarterly meetings, you know, we'd go out to dinner and the 289 00:24:34,971 --> 00:24:38,491 staff would go out to dinner and we'd come back to the hotel and Roger would be getting out of 290 00:24:38,491 --> 00:24:43,391 a limo with an owner. You know, he knew where he was going and he was going to get there. 291 00:24:43,971 --> 00:24:48,191 Having said all that, when I asked Tagliabue about it, he said, why should I complain? He did 292 00:24:48,191 --> 00:24:51,511 everything we asked him to do. So, you know, good on him for, 293 00:24:51,611 --> 00:24:55,711 for working hard and trying to solve problems. So, you know, that's what I mean. 294 00:24:55,731 --> 00:24:59,271 He was nakedly ambitious, but he succeeded and, and, and, you know, 295 00:24:59,271 --> 00:25:01,131 got up to the top of the mountain, so to speak. 296 00:25:01,131 --> 00:25:04,371 I see him in the mold, a bit of David Stern, 297 00:25:04,711 --> 00:25:08,491 where David Stern was very good for the brand, 298 00:25:08,771 --> 00:25:12,111 very good for the NBA and his successor, 299 00:25:12,771 --> 00:25:15,531 Adam Silver is just, it's just not. 300 00:25:15,531 --> 00:25:19,071 and they made money. 301 00:25:19,191 --> 00:25:21,211 I think a lot of these leagues making money 302 00:25:21,211 --> 00:25:23,691 maybe off the coattails of the NFL 303 00:25:23,691 --> 00:25:26,911 and what Tagliabue and Goodell put in place. 304 00:25:27,171 --> 00:25:28,711 But what do you... 305 00:25:28,711 --> 00:25:31,691 Goodell's 65 or turning 65 this year, I think. 306 00:25:33,211 --> 00:25:36,091 I would guess they're going to extend him 307 00:25:36,091 --> 00:25:39,471 the contract for $70 million plus a year, probably again. 308 00:25:40,031 --> 00:25:44,531 But where do you see the future of the NFL leadership 309 00:25:44,531 --> 00:25:49,251 commissionership after Goodell leaves, 310 00:25:49,391 --> 00:25:50,411 is there anybody, 311 00:25:50,671 --> 00:25:54,351 or is this going to be a vacuum like it was in the NBA where, 312 00:25:54,831 --> 00:25:55,231 I mean, 313 00:25:55,951 --> 00:25:56,651 Silver is, 314 00:25:57,251 --> 00:25:57,451 you know, 315 00:25:57,451 --> 00:25:57,931 say what you want. 316 00:25:57,991 --> 00:25:58,751 He's serviceable, 317 00:25:58,971 --> 00:25:59,931 but the NFL, 318 00:26:00,191 --> 00:26:04,031 the NBA just isn't what it was in the eighties and nineties under Stern. 319 00:26:04,131 --> 00:26:04,531 Just not. 320 00:26:05,331 --> 00:26:05,391 No, 321 00:26:05,471 --> 00:26:07,411 that was definitely a sort of glamor period. 322 00:26:07,551 --> 00:26:10,031 You had Magic Johnson and Larry Bird. 323 00:26:10,031 --> 00:26:11,191 A lot of factors. 324 00:26:11,751 --> 00:26:12,151 Yeah. 325 00:26:12,251 --> 00:26:12,391 I mean, 326 00:26:12,411 --> 00:26:13,311 those players were, 327 00:26:13,611 --> 00:26:13,951 you know, 328 00:26:13,951 --> 00:26:19,611 They were unicorns. And the 2000s, you know, not get too far down the rabbit hole in the NBA, 329 00:26:19,731 --> 00:26:26,591 but you had a labor stoppage in 99. You had a truncated season. They've had other problems, 330 00:26:26,751 --> 00:26:33,451 some of which David oversaw. But in any event, you know, Roger has told his friends at times, 331 00:26:33,531 --> 00:26:37,711 I want to step back. But the reality is he doesn't know what else he wants to do. 332 00:26:37,711 --> 00:26:44,751 this was the one job he wanted he's he's been at the NFL for 45 years he's very good at it he has a 333 00:26:44,751 --> 00:26:51,251 very unique resume and you know he has told friends I can't step down because I can't find 334 00:26:51,251 --> 00:26:56,391 anybody to replace me some of his friends thinks that's that's kind of nonsense he wants to stay 335 00:26:56,391 --> 00:27:01,031 he likes it he's still relatively healthy he's had some back surgery but he's still 336 00:27:01,031 --> 00:27:06,831 very influential he schmoozes with all the media people I think he'll get through the next labor 337 00:27:06,831 --> 00:27:14,271 deal, which runs out in 2030, after the 2030 season. So let's see, it's another half decade. 338 00:27:14,831 --> 00:27:19,411 And then from that flows the next set of media deals, they may opt out early. But, 339 00:27:19,751 --> 00:27:24,591 but so I think once he puts that, those two things to bed, he'll be what 70, 340 00:27:25,191 --> 00:27:30,731 be in his early 70s, he might decide that's been enough. You know, maybe I'll go hang out with my 341 00:27:30,731 --> 00:27:35,591 kids or spend more time in Maine or wherever he has his homes, do some skiing. 342 00:27:36,271 --> 00:27:38,171 So, but yeah, he likes what he does. 343 00:27:38,311 --> 00:27:42,631 And, you know, the question of who replaces him is a more important one, I think, for 344 00:27:42,631 --> 00:27:43,091 the league. 345 00:27:43,771 --> 00:27:46,211 My suspicion is that it'll be a media person. 346 00:27:46,671 --> 00:27:48,351 That's where the league is now. 347 00:27:48,911 --> 00:27:53,951 It's, you know, two thirds of its revenue comes from media and sponsorships, not from 348 00:27:53,951 --> 00:27:56,351 tickets and beer and parking and all that other stuff. 349 00:27:56,431 --> 00:27:57,671 That's a much smaller piece. 350 00:27:57,671 --> 00:28:02,831 so they're going to want somebody who can steer the league uh you know through that universe and 351 00:28:02,831 --> 00:28:06,911 of course in the midst of all this we're getting the fracturing of the media universe you know 352 00:28:06,911 --> 00:28:13,191 cable tv is dying uh you know we're getting more streaming how do you add streaming without you 353 00:28:13,191 --> 00:28:18,131 know forcing fans to pay a thousand dollars to watch all the games and you talk about that last 354 00:28:18,131 --> 00:28:23,731 chapter of the book it's like where do we go from here you know it's a real tough thing because 355 00:28:23,731 --> 00:28:31,051 they've squeezed i think they quoted or mentioned something about is squeezing every penny out of 356 00:28:31,051 --> 00:28:39,271 the fans and i find it i used to like to go to nfl games but uh you know with the advent of 357 00:28:39,271 --> 00:28:45,671 stub hub which makes it a lot easier to buy a ticket it's also more expensive than going and 358 00:28:45,671 --> 00:28:51,711 going to the site and maybe scalping a ticket for three bucks or for free or whatever it might be 359 00:28:51,711 --> 00:28:52,811 depending on the game. 360 00:28:53,491 --> 00:28:57,071 And it's also such a big hassle to go to an NFL game 361 00:28:57,071 --> 00:28:59,231 or a big league baseball game or whatever. 362 00:28:59,291 --> 00:29:01,931 It's just more of a hassle these days, and it's more expensive. 363 00:29:02,391 --> 00:29:07,431 And compared to the 1980s, you can watch any game you want, really, 364 00:29:07,591 --> 00:29:10,411 on television or your device, really. 365 00:29:10,551 --> 00:29:13,211 Now, I think since we're talking about the tech and all that stuff. 366 00:29:13,211 --> 00:29:15,071 So it's a much different game. 367 00:29:16,191 --> 00:29:16,311 Yeah. 368 00:29:16,311 --> 00:29:21,731 Roger likes to say that 97% of NFL fans never go to a game. 369 00:29:22,471 --> 00:29:29,111 And so I always think it's a little bit of lip service when he says the fans are our most important constituents. 370 00:29:29,111 --> 00:29:37,831 You know, come on. The most important constituents are the 32 owners who decide what you should be doing and how much you're going to be paid for it. 371 00:29:38,431 --> 00:29:42,711 But I mean, yes, fans are important. But in his mind, fans are TV viewers. 372 00:29:42,711 --> 00:29:45,451 and the guys who want to tailgate, good on them. 373 00:29:45,971 --> 00:29:48,511 I think I write a line in the book that, you know, 374 00:29:48,571 --> 00:29:52,271 the fans in the stadium now are essentially props, you know, 375 00:29:52,311 --> 00:29:53,851 for TV broadcasts. 376 00:29:53,851 --> 00:29:57,591 And, you know, we saw it even during COVID when there were no fans. 377 00:29:57,691 --> 00:29:58,511 People still watched. 378 00:29:59,111 --> 00:30:01,911 Did they really need fans waving terrible towels? 379 00:30:02,651 --> 00:30:03,491 Maybe not. 380 00:30:03,951 --> 00:30:07,551 People still tuned in with the cardboard cutouts of fans there. 381 00:30:07,631 --> 00:30:10,151 They had, what, the Super Bowl in Tampa that year 382 00:30:10,151 --> 00:30:12,071 that was like half the seats were empty. 383 00:30:12,711 --> 00:30:15,831 people will watch football because it's a compelling game. 384 00:30:16,111 --> 00:30:18,671 It's presented in a very interesting way. 385 00:30:18,851 --> 00:30:23,631 All the high-definition cameras and the slow motion and the strategy of it. 386 00:30:23,771 --> 00:30:25,071 It's still a compelling game. 387 00:30:25,371 --> 00:30:26,511 It's a violent game. 388 00:30:27,071 --> 00:30:28,491 Some people enjoy that too. 389 00:30:29,151 --> 00:30:33,991 There's a lot of character to the game that I think sells itself, I guess. 390 00:30:34,991 --> 00:30:36,711 Do you have a few more minutes? 391 00:30:36,711 --> 00:30:47,211 I got a question that comes up throughout the book and really toward the end too, in particular, it's the gambling side. 392 00:30:47,911 --> 00:31:00,411 I was not aware that Jones and Kraft had bought in on a couple of these gambling sites before it was even legal for any sports book, but they saw the writing on the wall, it sounds like. 393 00:31:01,031 --> 00:31:06,571 And now the NFL, like all these leagues, are in bed with gambling. 394 00:31:06,711 --> 00:31:10,491 sports books, online sports books and stuff. 395 00:31:11,071 --> 00:31:15,771 And I just saw news of the Cleveland Indians guy, 396 00:31:15,771 --> 00:31:20,691 the class A, he got banned for a lifetime 397 00:31:20,691 --> 00:31:22,951 for betting on games. 398 00:31:23,111 --> 00:31:25,671 It hasn't been out through games or not. 399 00:31:25,771 --> 00:31:26,411 I imagine he did. 400 00:31:28,351 --> 00:31:31,211 And I went to Boston College. 401 00:31:32,071 --> 00:31:34,411 So if you're familiar with the stories there, 402 00:31:34,411 --> 00:31:41,591 That was, you know, there's a, there's some, it bothers me to see gambling so intermixed 403 00:31:41,591 --> 00:31:46,911 with sports and almost it was, it was like every, yeah, people did it. 404 00:31:47,311 --> 00:31:48,231 People do it. 405 00:31:48,671 --> 00:31:49,571 People bet on games. 406 00:31:49,691 --> 00:31:50,671 People had a bookie. 407 00:31:50,771 --> 00:31:54,531 You could, in Oregon, I don't know, you said you lived in Oregon for a while. 408 00:31:54,611 --> 00:31:57,791 I don't know if they had sports action then, but people love doing sports action. 409 00:31:57,891 --> 00:32:01,271 It was the sports book that you could buy through the lottery. 410 00:32:01,851 --> 00:32:06,191 However, the NFL was never going to come to Portland or Oregon, 411 00:32:06,891 --> 00:32:10,591 even for the Raiders or the Seahawks or whoever wanted to relocate, 412 00:32:10,951 --> 00:32:12,331 as long as they had gambling. 413 00:32:12,871 --> 00:32:15,291 And now gambling is okay. 414 00:32:16,131 --> 00:32:20,091 And I fear for the future of the league and the integrity of the league 415 00:32:20,091 --> 00:32:21,371 with the gambling. 416 00:32:21,831 --> 00:32:24,431 I don't think in the book you make any statement. 417 00:32:25,911 --> 00:32:29,811 Would you like to make any statement on what you see there with the gambling? 418 00:32:29,811 --> 00:32:48,791 Yeah, it's well, two things. One is the NFL is not the only league that's struggled with this contradiction of, you know, doing an about face. I mean, they were petitioning courts to not overturn or to not allow a sports book gambling outside of Las Vegas. 419 00:32:48,791 --> 00:32:53,931 and then the minute the Supreme Court threw it out, they were in business. 420 00:32:53,931 --> 00:32:57,831 So, you know, is the NFL any different than the NBA or Major League Baseball? 421 00:32:57,951 --> 00:32:59,331 No, not in that sense. 422 00:32:59,811 --> 00:33:03,491 But, you know, the NFL is the most gambled on sport. 423 00:33:04,071 --> 00:33:07,131 So they do take sort of outsized attention. 424 00:33:07,831 --> 00:33:12,111 You know, it's worth saying that they make their money now from sponsorships. 425 00:33:12,631 --> 00:33:16,451 You can go to a DraftKings lounge in the Commander Stadium. 426 00:33:16,451 --> 00:33:22,671 uh you know they are making money from the gambling companies but not on the gambling itself 427 00:33:22,671 --> 00:33:27,971 um they have two sources of revenue one is the sponsorships and the other is selling the nfl 428 00:33:27,971 --> 00:33:33,451 game data to the various books uh and that's really where they make frankly most of their 429 00:33:33,451 --> 00:33:39,211 money so um are they promoting gambling by running the ads well sure and you know look 430 00:33:39,211 --> 00:33:44,791 there are no cigarette ads in stadiums anymore because people deemed we shouldn't be promoting 431 00:33:44,791 --> 00:33:51,051 cigarettes. You know, for a long time, there were no hard liquor ads in many stadiums. They've now 432 00:33:51,051 --> 00:33:56,551 decided, eh, people drink Captain Morgan's rum. We can take money from Captain Morgan. 433 00:33:57,551 --> 00:34:01,311 You know, I think for the integrity of the game, and you brought up baseball in particular, 434 00:34:01,311 --> 00:34:07,351 this case with the Cleveland Guardians, it is problematic. I think it's a, you know, 435 00:34:07,411 --> 00:34:12,911 I learned this as a business reporter covering markets and companies. It can take a lifetime 436 00:34:12,911 --> 00:34:18,491 time to build up trust you can lose it in an instance and the minute that fans think that 437 00:34:18,491 --> 00:34:23,471 the fix is in they're going to be pissed and now they have money running on it we're not just talking 438 00:34:23,471 --> 00:34:28,331 about I don't trust you know like there's a whole meme now on the social on social media about 439 00:34:28,331 --> 00:34:41,316 whether the refs treat Kansas City the Kansas City Chiefs differently you know they get they an AI AI generated pictures of Patrick Mahomes handing cash to a referee and all that You know it corrosive 440 00:34:42,256 --> 00:34:48,476 It also changes, I think gambling really changes the way people watch sports. Again, this is not 441 00:34:48,476 --> 00:34:53,136 just an NFL thing, but you know, we went from the days probably you and I, roughly the same age, 442 00:34:53,396 --> 00:34:58,156 you know, sitting down with your dad with a clicker, maybe a can of beer, you had your jersey 443 00:34:58,156 --> 00:35:03,276 on and you watched three hours you watched a drama basically uh you might have thrown some 444 00:35:03,276 --> 00:35:07,796 things at the tv too depending on who you're rooting for i call it reality television for men 445 00:35:07,796 --> 00:35:13,616 the nfl yes exactly yeah and then there were highlights and then there was espn and sports 446 00:35:13,616 --> 00:35:18,716 center and then it got broken up into smaller and smaller pieces and then you have fantasy football 447 00:35:18,716 --> 00:35:23,416 so now you're now you know you're either rooting for a tight end on the team you could care less 448 00:35:23,416 --> 00:35:29,536 about because he's on your roster well then you add money to it and it's a very uh it really 449 00:35:29,536 --> 00:35:35,876 amplifies the um the tension uh sometimes in a good way but but most often you're you're not 450 00:35:35,876 --> 00:35:41,276 going to win so i mean look the the book always wins the sports book's going to win so more chances 451 00:35:41,276 --> 00:35:47,116 than not so uh you know now you got people pissed at the nfl you got pissed at a player or a team 452 00:35:47,116 --> 00:35:52,856 uh i think that's really um sort of damaging um you know there's always been people playing but 453 00:35:52,856 --> 00:35:57,836 Now you're playing on your cell phone. You can bet during the game. You can bet in the stadium. 454 00:35:58,536 --> 00:36:03,676 It wasn't just going down to the corner or calling somebody and put a bet down. Now it's instantaneous. 455 00:36:03,916 --> 00:36:10,596 There's this dopamine effect that people have that's that's kind of distorting their kind of sense of proportion. 456 00:36:11,256 --> 00:36:18,636 And I think that's dangerous. Again, it's not just an NFL issue. They didn't create this, but they are partly making money off it. 457 00:36:18,636 --> 00:36:33,996 Yeah, I'm not Puritan when it comes to gambling, but I mean, in its time and space, and I really think around sports, when the leagues get involved or in bed, it's like, man, it is a slippery slope. 458 00:36:33,996 --> 00:36:39,156 And I understand that they're making money and they're keeping it at arm's length to some degree. 459 00:36:39,796 --> 00:36:45,436 But I just wonder, you know, in the future, the economy gets turned south or whatever. 460 00:36:45,436 --> 00:36:54,776 And we're still in this system and the players aren't getting paid as much or, you know, labor strife hits and like, all right, well, we can make a little money here. 461 00:36:54,876 --> 00:36:58,616 That's what I wonder, you know, I worry about the worst case scenario, really. 462 00:36:59,096 --> 00:37:03,656 And it's not like the guys going to Vegas for a weekend and sitting around the blackjack table. 463 00:37:03,656 --> 00:37:06,416 That's a whole different animal in itself. 464 00:37:06,756 --> 00:37:13,416 But when you bring the games themselves that are, you can do it. 465 00:37:13,436 --> 00:37:15,896 I mean, Shohei Otani, look, we don't know what's going on with him. 466 00:37:16,556 --> 00:37:22,756 You can speculate, but this is strange and it's a cloud. 467 00:37:23,516 --> 00:37:24,396 Well, then add this. 468 00:37:24,656 --> 00:37:30,496 I read a headline that the NCAA was going to allow athletes to bet on football. 469 00:37:31,436 --> 00:37:32,736 Well, just do the math. 470 00:37:32,736 --> 00:37:40,096 a senior at name the university i'm bet i'm betting i i'm assuming some teammates of his 471 00:37:40,096 --> 00:37:46,536 are now in the nfl what's to say they just chat on the phone about so-and-so's injury on some pro 472 00:37:46,536 --> 00:37:53,076 team oh yeah i mean but this has happened this has happened like i know a lot of folks that have 473 00:37:53,076 --> 00:37:59,816 you know when gambling was illegal so-called um that happened it happened but he was they 474 00:37:59,816 --> 00:38:04,396 they were more discretionary about it and they wouldn't, they wouldn't, well, not to say not 475 00:38:04,396 --> 00:38:10,956 everybody, but, you know, putting the integrity on the line so out front. Anyway, I, um, that's just 476 00:38:10,956 --> 00:38:20,376 maybe a, perhaps a peeve of mine. Um, one more, one more, I guess, comment about the book that I, 477 00:38:20,616 --> 00:38:26,036 that I really enjoyed. I don't know if there's a question here necessarily, but the stadium, 478 00:38:26,036 --> 00:38:28,536 stadium relocate or team relocation. 479 00:38:28,836 --> 00:38:31,736 So you go through the whole 90s relocation, 480 00:38:31,836 --> 00:38:34,136 but all these teams were moving. 481 00:38:34,596 --> 00:38:37,596 And curiously, you didn't mention Seattle almost moving to LA, 482 00:38:37,756 --> 00:38:38,736 but leave that be. 483 00:38:39,616 --> 00:38:41,696 You could have written an 800 page book, 484 00:38:41,856 --> 00:38:48,076 but the explanation of what went down in the two LA, 485 00:38:48,476 --> 00:38:50,316 potential LA stadium things, 486 00:38:50,456 --> 00:38:53,036 I could never figure that out just by reading the news. 487 00:38:53,136 --> 00:38:55,036 I'm like, what in the world is going on? 488 00:38:55,036 --> 00:39:03,476 So in this book, I would just congratulate you for, you know, ferreting that out and like, all right, well, some people were pissed. 489 00:39:03,736 --> 00:39:08,656 Some people weren't. And it ultimately turned out really well for the NFL. 490 00:39:09,756 --> 00:39:13,876 Mostly good for all the teams involved, which I was surprised about. 491 00:39:14,136 --> 00:39:18,436 The Raiders wanted to go back to L.A. really and share it with the Chargers. 492 00:39:18,436 --> 00:39:25,516 But then the Rams, you know, through their wrinkle. But then the Raiders now have Vegas to themselves and the Super Bowl and all this stuff. 493 00:39:26,156 --> 00:39:33,156 And the L.A. teams seem to be doing great. And that stadium is world class. 494 00:39:33,836 --> 00:39:38,396 Yeah. Yeah. I think we could circle back to to Jerry Jones for a minute. 495 00:39:38,396 --> 00:39:45,356 But I remember sitting in his office and I guess it was in 2015, like beginning of 2015. 496 00:39:45,356 --> 00:39:53,236 And it was still a year away from that vote they had about which team the Rams or the Chargers Raiders would get the L.A. market. 497 00:39:53,896 --> 00:39:56,356 And Jerry said, you know, we got to make a splash. 498 00:39:57,096 --> 00:39:58,836 We only have one bite at this apple. 499 00:39:58,936 --> 00:40:04,556 If we're going to go back to the media capital of the world, the entertainment capital of the world, we need we need to come in. 500 00:40:04,876 --> 00:40:07,176 You know, we need to announce ourselves. 501 00:40:07,176 --> 00:40:10,436 We want to be like the Lakers, you know, with Jack Nicholson sitting courtside. 502 00:40:10,536 --> 00:40:13,476 We don't we don't want to just have a stadium like we don't you know. 503 00:40:13,596 --> 00:40:15,536 I mean, the Coliseum is lovely. 504 00:40:15,996 --> 00:40:18,436 It's a nice relic, but that's not the future. 505 00:40:18,436 --> 00:40:19,756 Right. That's old time. 506 00:40:20,416 --> 00:40:22,976 And so, you know, 100 years old or more. 507 00:40:23,396 --> 00:40:24,916 Yeah, it's crumbling, basically. 508 00:40:25,216 --> 00:40:28,556 So, you know, but then you so you look at the contestants, if you will. 509 00:40:29,016 --> 00:40:34,776 Stan Kroenke's got I think he was the second wealthiest owner at that point after Paul Allen. 510 00:40:35,336 --> 00:40:36,696 He's a real estate man. 511 00:40:36,696 --> 00:40:39,776 And he bought the 300 acres next to the forum, the L.A. forum. 512 00:40:40,736 --> 00:40:41,656 You know, he thinks big. 513 00:40:41,656 --> 00:40:42,596 He thinks that. 514 00:40:42,996 --> 00:40:46,436 And he was going to build not just the stadium, but NFL Network Studios. 515 00:40:47,556 --> 00:40:49,376 You know, there was going to be real estate around there. 516 00:40:49,476 --> 00:40:50,816 Inglewood's close to the airport. 517 00:40:51,496 --> 00:40:58,696 And then you got Dean Spanos and Mark Davis basically don't have a ton of money and don't frankly have a big vision. 518 00:40:59,036 --> 00:41:04,216 They brought in Bob Iger from Disney as an equity partner to kind of jazz it up. 519 00:41:04,216 --> 00:41:08,116 But they were going to be located in Carson, 20 miles down 405. 520 00:41:08,596 --> 00:41:09,756 That's not a splash. 521 00:41:10,156 --> 00:41:12,756 That's just a stadium and some available land. 522 00:41:13,096 --> 00:41:16,816 It's like the Chargers playing at that soccer stadium they played in for a few years. 523 00:41:17,096 --> 00:41:17,576 Exactly. 524 00:41:17,776 --> 00:41:18,196 Exactly. 525 00:41:18,376 --> 00:41:22,956 So I think, you know, Jerry was really the leader behind pushing the Rams. 526 00:41:23,296 --> 00:41:27,896 There was another Jerry, Jerry Richardson, former owner of the Carolina Panthers, and 527 00:41:27,896 --> 00:41:33,456 he was banging the drum on the dual side, on the Raiders-Chargers side, because he said, 528 00:41:33,456 --> 00:41:37,616 look, we got to solve two stadium problems at once. Both were playing in terrible places in 529 00:41:37,616 --> 00:41:43,376 San Diego and Oakland. Concrete stadium was built in the 60s. If we move them down there, 530 00:41:43,436 --> 00:41:49,836 we solve two problems at once. They get a new home, you know, and obviously Jets, Giants share 531 00:41:49,836 --> 00:41:54,616 a stadium that wouldn't be unheard of. But, you know, it really didn't have the glitz. And that 532 00:41:54,616 --> 00:42:01,436 meeting that you're referring to in Houston in 2016, going into it, Jerry Richardson felt like 533 00:42:01,436 --> 00:42:07,816 he had enough votes. You need 24 out of 32 to pass anything. And Jerry was very influential. 534 00:42:08,096 --> 00:42:14,356 He had a small subcommittee that was scouting both stadiums. Robert Kraft was on that. And they 535 00:42:14,356 --> 00:42:21,696 voted for the dual solution, the Raiders Chargers option. And then Jerry Jones comes in and he is 536 00:42:21,696 --> 00:42:28,796 lobbying hard. And some of those owners who were on the dual side switched. They saw, you know what, 537 00:42:28,796 --> 00:42:32,796 look, this is big money. We're going to come into LA. We want to have a Super Bowl. 538 00:42:33,456 --> 00:42:38,676 This was near the airport. You have views of the ocean, all the bells and whistles. 539 00:42:39,316 --> 00:42:44,316 And one of the key votes or voices in that room was Paul Allen. You referenced the Seahawks. 540 00:42:44,676 --> 00:42:48,576 Paul almost never came to owners meetings, but Roger Goodell called him and said, 541 00:42:48,616 --> 00:42:52,156 you've got to show up to this one. And he flew in and he was like the Oracle. 542 00:42:53,156 --> 00:42:58,296 John Houseman, when so-and-so speaks, when EF Hutton speaks, people listen. 543 00:42:58,796 --> 00:43:05,456 And several owners said that when Paul said, oh, this is the L.A. one, the Rams makes the most sense. 544 00:43:05,576 --> 00:43:08,816 People were like, OK, Paul Allen says it. I'm going with Paul Allen. 545 00:43:08,816 --> 00:43:13,736 And so he helped in his own quiet way swing a lot of votes over. 546 00:43:14,256 --> 00:43:20,976 And at the end of that meeting, and this is one of the joys of the book, you know, I've been I reported on the league for about a dozen years. 547 00:43:21,076 --> 00:43:26,216 There's so much stuff in my notebook, notebooks that I just never put in the New York Times stories. 548 00:43:26,216 --> 00:43:32,716 There's just no space for them. But that meeting, Jerry Jones comes out into the lobby and the media is all there and the lights pop on. 549 00:43:32,856 --> 00:43:36,756 And and he's a pig in a poke. He's standing there grinning ear to ear. 550 00:43:36,836 --> 00:43:42,116 He's got that twinkle. And his guy won. Stan Kroenke. I backed that horse and that's the one. 551 00:43:42,516 --> 00:43:46,216 So I'm standing right behind him and the lights are coming in. He's answering questions. 552 00:43:46,216 --> 00:43:53,436 And I look down to Jerry's right arms down here. He's got a big old tumbler of scotch and it's about this big. 553 00:43:53,436 --> 00:43:55,516 And he's having a good time. 554 00:43:55,576 --> 00:43:56,176 And that's Jerry. 555 00:43:56,276 --> 00:43:57,076 He's a salesman. 556 00:43:57,076 --> 00:43:59,516 He's in it for the thrill. 557 00:43:59,796 --> 00:44:01,936 And he got his catch that day. 558 00:44:02,556 --> 00:44:03,296 Yeah, that's great. 559 00:44:03,376 --> 00:44:05,876 And then that was pretty much the last we heard of Jerry Richardson. 560 00:44:06,036 --> 00:44:08,196 He went on to try and sell the team, eventually did, 561 00:44:08,916 --> 00:44:11,376 not before getting blackballed from the league. 562 00:44:12,416 --> 00:44:14,056 Fought on his way out the door. 563 00:44:14,636 --> 00:44:18,276 Sat into a great football career for Jerry Richardson. 564 00:44:18,616 --> 00:44:21,116 But he made his own bed there a little bit. 565 00:44:21,116 --> 00:44:26,796 And so, all right, well, gosh, Ken, this has been a wonderful conversation. 566 00:44:27,256 --> 00:44:28,136 I appreciate it. 567 00:44:28,256 --> 00:44:30,476 Great, great luck with the book. 568 00:44:30,676 --> 00:44:34,396 Once again, it's Every Day is Sunday, How Jerry Jones, Robert Kraft, and Roger Goodell 569 00:44:34,396 --> 00:44:40,536 Turned the NFL into a Cultural and Economic Juggernaut, Grand Central Publishing, October 570 00:44:40,536 --> 00:44:41,816 14th, 2025. 571 00:44:42,356 --> 00:44:46,516 And it is a cultural and economic juggernaut, no doubt about it. 572 00:44:47,376 --> 00:44:48,716 So any last words, Ken? 573 00:44:49,656 --> 00:44:50,436 No, thank you, Brian. 574 00:44:50,436 --> 00:44:51,376 It's a great conversation. 575 00:44:51,516 --> 00:44:52,776 I appreciate you having me on. 576 00:44:52,836 --> 00:44:55,296 And this is an endless source of conversation. 577 00:44:55,556 --> 00:44:57,036 I've been on airplanes with people. 578 00:44:57,176 --> 00:44:59,036 I've seen people overseas. 579 00:44:59,876 --> 00:45:02,816 The NFL is a 365 organization. 580 00:45:03,356 --> 00:45:03,516 Yeah. 581 00:45:04,176 --> 00:45:04,456 All right. 582 00:45:04,476 --> 00:45:05,216 Well, I appreciate it, Ken. 583 00:45:05,276 --> 00:45:05,696 Thank you. 584 00:45:13,016 --> 00:45:16,496 Thanks for tuning in to the Brian D. O'Leary Show. 585 00:45:16,496 --> 00:45:21,816 Once again, you can find me on Twitter X at Brian D. O'Leary. 586 00:45:22,176 --> 00:45:26,636 Same thing goes for YouTube and Substack. 587 00:45:27,116 --> 00:45:34,136 And you can get our regular emails, posts, columns, podcasts, video podcasts, all that. 588 00:45:34,396 --> 00:45:39,116 If you go to o'learyletter.com and we'll have that all in the show notes for you. 589 00:45:39,636 --> 00:45:41,556 Once again, thanks for tuning in folks. 590 00:45:41,696 --> 00:45:43,076 And we'll see you next time. 591 00:45:43,076 --> 00:45:48,836 Your sanctuary for serious content in an unserious culture.