1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:14,140 Yeah, yeah, it did. I mean, there's something about the college game and I write about this in the book, too. I mean, there's there's the games themselves are kind of defined in when they're played. Right. So like the high school Friday Night Lights has this sort of real release end of the week kind of deal. 2 00:00:14,460 --> 00:00:27,700 The NFL is on Sunday, which is can be a little bit of a bleak day. Oh, my God, I got I got work on Monday, you know, kind of thing. So you're kind of just lounging around the couch. But Saturday is this incredible. I mean, college games are on the most the best day of the weekend. Right. 3 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:41,020 You're listening to The Brian D. O'Leary Show, your sanctuary for serious content in an unserious culture. 4 00:00:45,700 --> 00:00:49,980 Today, we're heading back into the wild heart of college football in the early 2000s. 5 00:00:49,980 --> 00:00:59,740 Joined by Monty Burke, New York Times bestselling author of Men of Troy, The Epic Afternoons, Wild Nights, and Enduring Legacy of Pete Carroll's USC Trojans. 6 00:00:59,940 --> 00:01:03,740 And that's from Grand Central Publishing out January 13th, 2026. 7 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:11,160 We get into how a so-called failed NFL coach turned USC into a Hollywood-sized dynasty and how it all came crashing down. 8 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:18,500 Before we dive in, if you're a writer or creator who wants to build a real business of your own around your newsletter, 9 00:01:18,660 --> 00:01:23,100 head over to O'LearyWriters.com where you can grab my Substack Success Blueprint. 10 00:01:23,340 --> 00:01:29,660 It's a 31-page no-fluff guide to growing your list and turning it into a sustainable, profitable publication. 11 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:33,280 And without further ado, here's our interview with Monty Burke. 12 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:38,480 All right, today we have Monty Burke with us. 13 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:41,040 He recently released a book called Meta Troy, 14 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:42,780 the epic afternoons, 15 00:01:42,900 --> 00:01:46,120 wild nights and enduring legacy of Pete Carroll's USC Trojans. 16 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:49,760 And it was published by grand central publishing January 13th, 17 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:52,040 2026 last week as we're talking here. 18 00:01:52,180 --> 00:01:56,300 So Monty also wrote Saban making of a coach released in 2016, 19 00:01:56,300 --> 00:02:00,580 written several books and innumerable essays about fly fishing. 20 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:03,880 And as I was telling Monty a second ago, 21 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:08,280 I'm a big college football fan and a former professional in the fly fishing 22 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:13,820 industry in a former life. So we have a lot of common interests. But today, we're here to talk 23 00:02:13,820 --> 00:02:19,620 about Menetroy. Monty, welcome. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Yeah, you bet. First of all, I 24 00:02:19,620 --> 00:02:26,540 want to just talk about folks who haven't read perhaps some of your other works and your full 25 00:02:26,540 --> 00:02:32,480 story and where you grew up. I grew up kind of all over the place. I was born in the Northeast, 26 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:41,240 but the majority of my childhood was in Alabama. So, you know, I actually was so was lucky enough. 27 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:46,420 The Crimson Tide used to play in Birmingham, which is where I lived. And my grandfather was 28 00:02:46,420 --> 00:02:51,800 a drinking buddy of Bear Bryant's, which was not a unique designation in Alabama at that time. 29 00:02:52,780 --> 00:02:57,960 But so I would go to, you know, games at Legion Field and saw, you know, Alabama, Notre Dame, 30 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:00,260 Alabama, Kentucky, all these great games. 31 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:04,060 So that really got me into college football. 32 00:03:04,340 --> 00:03:07,980 From that point on, I've just been eaten up with college football. 33 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:08,940 Okay. 34 00:03:09,300 --> 00:03:10,740 And so it was mostly Alabama. 35 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:18,760 And somewhat itinerant childhood, but moving around, mold you in any way? 36 00:03:19,020 --> 00:03:19,660 College football? 37 00:03:20,820 --> 00:03:21,040 Yeah. 38 00:03:21,180 --> 00:03:27,000 I mean, what's funny is the Northeast doesn't have a very good college football heritage. 39 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:27,800 Hang on. 40 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:29,480 Hang on. I went to Boston College. 41 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:30,940 Except for Boston College. 42 00:03:31,020 --> 00:03:31,540 Yeah, there we go. 43 00:03:31,860 --> 00:03:33,620 Literally, it's except for Boston College. 44 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:36,300 I mean, you know, it does way back in the day, right? 45 00:03:36,380 --> 00:03:36,800 If you go away. 46 00:03:36,940 --> 00:03:37,260 Oh, yeah. 47 00:03:37,700 --> 00:03:41,280 We're sort of the, you know, that was the pinnacle of the sport way back in the day. 48 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:48,680 But and one thing that was kind of fun in a minute, Troy, I spend a little time in one chapter talking about the sort of how college football started. 49 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:52,940 And it did start here in the Northeast and started Princeton and Rutgers with the first game. 50 00:03:53,020 --> 00:03:57,320 And then, you know, it kind of went down south and then it had its own sort of manifest destiny. 51 00:03:57,320 --> 00:04:09,180 You know, it went out West and the sort of anchor school out West was USC, but just, you know, in terms of childhood, you know, I always, I was kind of more of an NFL nut when I was up here, uh, up here being the Northeast. 52 00:04:09,180 --> 00:04:13,700 And then, you know, down South people don't in Alabama, particularly they don't care much. 53 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:17,720 I mean, they'd still like pro football, but it's all about the Crimson Tide and all about the Tigers. 54 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:18,180 You know what I mean? 55 00:04:18,180 --> 00:04:19,800 That's, that's, that's pretty much it. 56 00:04:20,060 --> 00:04:20,420 Yeah. 57 00:04:20,540 --> 00:04:27,300 I have family down there and yeah, it's, uh, you know, it, you know, until what the nineties there was, uh, there was the Falcons. 58 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:30,200 was the only school, maybe the Redskins, 59 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:33,580 if you identified them as a team of the South. 60 00:04:34,100 --> 00:04:37,500 It's bizarre because Atlanta is only two hours away from Birmingham, 61 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:39,360 so you would think there would be more Falcons fans there. 62 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:41,940 I found there would be more Steelers fans there. 63 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:44,700 It was a steel town like Pittsburgh was, 64 00:04:44,740 --> 00:04:47,540 so I think there's a lot of transplants and a lot of heritage there. 65 00:04:48,460 --> 00:04:50,840 Interesting, but it's all about the tide, really. 66 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:55,620 Yeah, and then you mentioned you grew up in Vermont, 67 00:04:55,620 --> 00:04:58,860 I ended up at Middlebury college and did you be, 68 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:02,380 do you want to become a writer then or not? 69 00:05:02,780 --> 00:05:05,480 I did. I did. I really, I really did. I mean, 70 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:09,400 I didn't have necessarily the cojones to kind of follow that path right away, 71 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:11,020 but you know, it took me a couple of years, 72 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:13,020 but I did absolutely always want to be a writer. 73 00:05:13,100 --> 00:05:14,400 I always loved three things. 74 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:16,940 I think we're kind of preeminent. My life was, you know, 75 00:05:16,980 --> 00:05:20,380 fly fishing football and writing and writing slash reading, 76 00:05:20,540 --> 00:05:21,620 put that in one category. 77 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:24,980 Yeah. And I think maybe we can talk about fly fishing. 78 00:05:24,980 --> 00:05:27,760 and another day I want to talk again 79 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:29,040 Men of Troy here today. 80 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:32,840 So college football sounds like it became an obsession 81 00:05:32,840 --> 00:05:37,340 or at least a major interest as a child. 82 00:05:37,980 --> 00:05:38,740 Yeah, it did. 83 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:40,640 I mean, there's something about the college game 84 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:41,880 and I write about this in the book too. 85 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:46,220 The games themselves are kind of defined 86 00:05:46,220 --> 00:05:47,140 in when they're played, right? 87 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:49,460 So like the high school Friday Night Lights 88 00:05:49,460 --> 00:05:50,680 has this sort of real release, 89 00:05:50,740 --> 00:05:51,780 end of the week kind of deal. 90 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:53,520 The NFL is on Sunday, 91 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:57,460 which can be a little bit of a bleak day. Oh my God, I got, I got work on Monday, you know, 92 00:05:57,460 --> 00:06:02,000 kind of thing. So you're kind of just lounging around the couch. But Saturday is this incredible, 93 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:05,980 I mean, college games are on the most, the best day of the weekend, right? You have a day of 94 00:06:05,980 --> 00:06:12,980 recovery in the other side of it. You have students at the game, you have bands, you have alums coming 95 00:06:12,980 --> 00:06:17,060 back to the place where they probably spent the best four years of their lives. So there's this 96 00:06:17,060 --> 00:06:20,760 incredible atmosphere to college games, even when you're, you know, especially when they're 97 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:25,920 stadium but even on tv there's like a different the orally so sound wise it's very different you 98 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:30,300 know it's got the always has the bands and they always like you know pan to the student section 99 00:06:30,300 --> 00:06:35,200 students seem to be more emotive than uh uh you know nfl fans you know they're like they're 100 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:39,260 on their on their fingernails and they're you know they're kind of hanging on every play so 101 00:06:39,260 --> 00:06:43,440 always that to me has always been really fascinating how how different the games are 102 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:48,260 kind of depend on when they when they're played yeah and you know i grew up in portland oregon 103 00:06:48,260 --> 00:06:52,600 And, you know, we had the Oregon Ducks and the Oregon State Beavers. 104 00:06:52,900 --> 00:06:55,880 But in the 80s, those teams were awful. 105 00:06:56,260 --> 00:06:56,740 They were awful. 106 00:06:56,920 --> 00:07:03,040 And we, you know, we followed, or at least I did, Division II Portland State Vikings who were great. 107 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:07,200 And so the whole idea of college football and going to that stadium was raucous. 108 00:07:07,280 --> 00:07:11,180 You go down to Eugene or Corvallis, it was gloomy and dismal. 109 00:07:12,660 --> 00:07:15,380 But we watched on Saturday. 110 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:16,780 They always had the big games. 111 00:07:16,780 --> 00:07:28,820 So, of course, USC, Notre Dame, Penn State, and the aforementioned Boston College, not on TV too much, but a Heisman Trophy winner that took Alabama to the woodshed at one point. 112 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:33,660 They were in that awesome game against Miami, that's for sure. I remember watching it. 113 00:07:33,660 --> 00:07:44,700 Yes, absolutely. So, yeah. But you so you wrote a biography about 10 years ago about Nick Saban. 114 00:07:45,540 --> 00:07:49,480 And this was there was more of a biography than this book you have right now. 115 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:54,480 The book you have out Men of Troy right now is really a snapshot. 116 00:07:54,480 --> 00:08:03,100 It is somewhat a biography of Pete Carroll, but it's really a snapshot of the period when Pete Carroll was at UC. 117 00:08:03,660 --> 00:08:14,080 Um, yeah. So I think what, I want to ask, what is it about these coaches or coaches in general 118 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:20,220 that keep pulling you back to these biographical sketches or even total projects? So again, 119 00:08:20,220 --> 00:08:24,020 I love college football, but, but to me, college football coaches are some of the most interesting 120 00:08:24,020 --> 00:08:29,080 kind of figures in American society, right? I mean, they're, they, they have to be so many 121 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:32,720 different things at once. They, you know, have to be great recruiters. They have to be sort of 122 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:36,140 psychologists, they have to be teachers. They're sort of like military leaders. 123 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:40,480 You know, they're the bigger programs, they're media celebrities. And, you know, 124 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:45,080 college football coaches have to speak to the media, you know, unlike the CEO of JP Morgan. 125 00:08:45,560 --> 00:08:48,900 Now, these guys are during the season are talking to the media. They're very accountable, right? 126 00:08:48,940 --> 00:08:53,260 Three or four times a week. They're in front of the media answering questions. So, you know, 127 00:08:53,260 --> 00:08:57,280 that always, I mean, they're basically CEOs of medium-sized companies. So, and also in college 128 00:08:57,280 --> 00:09:01,580 football, they have a lot more control than they do to the typical coach in the NFL. I mean, 129 00:09:01,580 --> 00:09:06,140 they are kind of the functioning GM as well. Um, so, you know, these guys have always, 130 00:09:06,460 --> 00:09:11,520 have always interested me and, and, you know, the, the obsession that they have for, uh, 131 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:17,420 the game and for the little meticulous details that go into, you know, creating a great team 132 00:09:17,420 --> 00:09:21,420 and creating a great staff and, and a player development, all that sort of stuff is always 133 00:09:21,420 --> 00:09:26,240 just truly, truly fascinating to me. And the, you know, whole thing about the, about Pete Carroll's 134 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:33,000 that era, that nine-year era, which really they haven't, you know, it still endures to this day, 135 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:36,020 really, because they haven't really recovered from the sanctions that happened at the end of it. But 136 00:09:36,020 --> 00:09:41,760 that nine-year era, you know, college football is, for the most part, a game of small towns, 137 00:09:42,100 --> 00:09:47,020 small-ish towns, small to medium towns, we call them, Tuscaloosa State College, you know, with 138 00:09:47,020 --> 00:09:51,960 the exception of Boston College and Miami, stuff like that. There are not many that are in cities, 139 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:59,620 Right. And USC was at that time during that era was in Los Angeles and there were no NFL teams there. 140 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:04,460 So they were the only NFL thing in town or the only football kind of game in town. 141 00:10:04,460 --> 00:10:11,400 And that aside from UCLA, but they started winning and they attracted all these, you know, celebrities and business people from L.A. 142 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:13,900 Which who love winners. Right. They're totally attracted to winners. 143 00:10:13,900 --> 00:10:22,200 And, you know, you had people like Snoop Dogg and Will Ferrell and the Fonz and Arnold, you know, like not not just going to games. 144 00:10:22,580 --> 00:10:27,220 This is practice. You know, it's like crazy. I was talking to this. I interviewed this punter. 145 00:10:28,100 --> 00:10:32,140 Which is no longer allowed after reading toward the end of your book, or maybe it is again. 146 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:38,540 Yeah, they don't allow it. And most coaches don't don't want what was interesting about Carroll. He didn't care. 147 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:42,180 He didn't care if a scout from the other team was there. He's like, we're going to beat you anyway. 148 00:10:42,180 --> 00:10:47,320 You can all our plays doesn't really matter. And he was right for a long period there for they won 34 games in a row. 149 00:10:48,580 --> 00:10:57,800 But, you know, it just was so interesting. I was interviewing this the punter and he would he talked about, like, you know, practicing his punts and looking over like three feet away from him. 150 00:10:57,820 --> 00:11:02,780 And there was Snoop Dogg standing there. So it became this kind of like crazy vibe thing that was going on. 151 00:11:02,780 --> 00:11:13,600 And of course it became an incredible recruiting advantage A couple of the guys I talked to said you know I went to you know to go visit the campus on my recruiting visit and I met Snoop Dogg 152 00:11:13,700 --> 00:11:17,380 And like, you know, you're probably going to go to USC if Snoop Dogg comes and gives you a high 153 00:11:17,380 --> 00:11:21,900 five, you know, during your recruiting visit. So it just was this era. I felt like, you know, 154 00:11:21,900 --> 00:11:26,340 then the NFL teams came back and it just was this era. I think that it never happened before 155 00:11:26,340 --> 00:11:32,980 where a team had like totally captured a city, a city of that size and will never happen again. 156 00:11:33,220 --> 00:11:36,180 because of the sanctions, because of the way the college football is now, 157 00:11:36,260 --> 00:11:38,580 because they have two teams there now. I mean, you know, 158 00:11:38,580 --> 00:11:41,280 two NFL teams there now. So to me, that was what's fat. 159 00:11:41,340 --> 00:11:43,900 That was what's kind of fascinating about that, that one nine year stretch there. 160 00:11:44,460 --> 00:11:48,060 Yeah. Unique, unique time in college football for sure. 161 00:11:49,340 --> 00:11:54,740 So USC let's for everybody who is listening or they, 162 00:11:54,780 --> 00:12:00,420 they should know that what USC has been a national power for well over a 163 00:12:00,420 --> 00:12:06,600 century. And there were some down times for sure that you mentioned in the book, but really with 164 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:12,800 John McKay, they built this program back up in the seventies. McKay ends up going to the Buccaneers, 165 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:18,720 you know, so on and so forth. But then John Robinson comes in seamless transition and they 166 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:24,880 went three national titles in the seventies and Robinson then goes to the Rams also in LA at the 167 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:33,080 time and it was usc was competitive they were they were good they weren't great until until carol 168 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:40,660 second year came around really um and you you yeah you you talk about right at that transition 169 00:12:40,660 --> 00:12:47,820 when usc started winning these national titles 72 i think was the first one um in that era you 170 00:12:47,820 --> 00:12:55,880 talk about the modern, what is it? The modern age of football starts in 1970. I was, I was, 171 00:12:56,040 --> 00:13:02,680 I was interested in that. Well, how did you determine that as the delineation point of the, 172 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:07,240 the modern era? Is it the a hundred years after that first Princeton game? 173 00:13:08,140 --> 00:13:10,800 You know, it's interesting that, that is, I don't remember the exact 174 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:17,240 source on that, but that is a widely accepted thing that the modern era of college football 175 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:18,920 started basically in 1970. 176 00:13:19,100 --> 00:13:21,200 It had something to do with the formation of the conferences, 177 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:25,760 television deals, scholarships, the scholarships too. 178 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:28,880 I believe that was the year they went from unlimited 179 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:30,900 to they had some sort of limit on them, stuff like that. 180 00:13:30,900 --> 00:13:32,420 It was kind of the formation of the NCAA. 181 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:35,520 Okay, so it's not the play of the game, 182 00:13:35,620 --> 00:13:39,460 but it's all the machinations of how it's structured. 183 00:13:40,420 --> 00:13:41,780 I was wondering about that. 184 00:13:41,860 --> 00:13:44,820 Four Pass was around 1970, we know. 185 00:13:45,420 --> 00:13:46,140 Well, that's that. 186 00:13:47,240 --> 00:14:00,860 Yeah. And so we get in this in this era, you know, you talk about the unlimited scholarships and, you know, USC being this in L.A. and having all the glitz and glamour of L.A. 187 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:08,700 And then one of the themes throughout the book is is amateurism and what the what college football is. 188 00:14:08,700 --> 00:14:37,180 My contention is that college football has never really been an amateur sport, so-called. The NCAA came in, what, 1906, 1905, somewhere in there, and established all these rules for eligibility for these players, but it's never been particularly amateur as the old Olympic standard or AAU standard might have been because these players had scholarships and we all know a lot of them are getting paid somewhat. 189 00:14:38,700 --> 00:14:40,800 You want to talk a little bit about the amateurism? 190 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:41,480 Yeah. 191 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:49,860 I mean, you know, so to me, the most interesting thing, I mean, so you're right that they, you know, they had scholarships, they had a free room and board. 192 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:52,480 They, you know, got a free ride to college, which is a big deal. 193 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:53,440 I have two kids in college. 194 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:55,480 I'd love to have that right now. 195 00:14:55,480 --> 00:15:01,340 And then they had a stipend, which was about $800, you know, depending on what year, was about $800 a month. 196 00:15:02,460 --> 00:15:08,680 However, you've got to look at a guy and, you know, I get deeply into the scandal towards the end of the book, the Reggie Bush scandal. 197 00:15:08,700 --> 00:15:14,120 Look at a guy like Reggie Bush. And this is where the amateurism model really falls apart. 198 00:15:14,700 --> 00:15:21,280 Who was the best player in college football for two years. One of the best players of all time, 199 00:15:21,340 --> 00:15:24,200 really, in college football. If you think about a true triple threat, you know, like 200 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:30,080 great running back, incredible receiver, an incredible returner of kicks. And, you know, 201 00:15:30,100 --> 00:15:36,440 this guy just was electric. He set the whole city on fire. Right. And USC, he was making 202 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:42,920 the university gobs of money. He was making the NCAA gobs of money. He was making the NCAA's 203 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:48,680 broadcast partners gobs of money. And yet legally, he couldn't cash in on that. And so, you know, 204 00:15:48,900 --> 00:15:54,620 he got caught up on it because he, you know, allegedly went out and tried to do it the other 205 00:15:54,620 --> 00:16:00,960 way, you know, tried to do it under the table. And so I do think that that scandal actually resonates 206 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:06,780 and it precipitates in a way the changes that we have now in college football. 207 00:16:07,460 --> 00:16:10,060 You know, the ability for these athletes to kind of, you know, 208 00:16:10,100 --> 00:16:12,360 cash in on their names, images and likenesses. 209 00:16:12,620 --> 00:16:14,440 And, you know, not necessarily the transfer portal, 210 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:16,020 but certainly the NIL stuff. 211 00:16:16,220 --> 00:16:18,400 And, you know, to me, that was the first time, 212 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:20,260 I think especially when the NCAA came down, 213 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:23,900 if you remember the, you know, there was the Reggie Bush huge scandal 214 00:16:23,900 --> 00:16:26,920 and Yahoo covered it and all the newspapers got all over it. 215 00:16:26,940 --> 00:16:27,860 ESPN was all over it. 216 00:16:27,860 --> 00:16:31,520 And then, you know, the NCAA came down really, really hard on USC. 217 00:16:31,940 --> 00:16:39,380 Not quite the death penalty that SMU got, but certainly harder than later scandals like at Penn State, which is a horrible scandal. 218 00:16:39,380 --> 00:16:42,180 And then at Miami, Ben Shapiro, also a horrible scandal. 219 00:16:42,460 --> 00:16:43,500 Way harder than those guys. 220 00:16:43,700 --> 00:16:46,240 They basically, USC has never really recovered. 221 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:46,900 I'll put it that way. 222 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:49,880 You know, they lost many scholarships. 223 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:50,820 They couldn't go to bowl games. 224 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:53,580 They haven't quite been nationally relevant since then. 225 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:56,980 And I think, you know, the scales kind of drop from people's eyes at this point. 226 00:16:56,980 --> 00:17:06,920 Like, why? Wait a minute. You know, like what what right do we have to tell these kids that they, you know, the kids up at, you know, Mark Zuckerberg is creating Facebook at Harvard. 227 00:17:07,020 --> 00:17:12,040 He gets to keep all the money, whatever he there. Right. And so, you know, it's just it's just really interesting to me. 228 00:17:12,120 --> 00:17:17,260 I feel like that precipitated what we have now in college football for better. 229 00:17:17,660 --> 00:17:26,260 Yeah. You talk you mentioned SMU and they did get the death penalty. You talk about going back, you know, Eric Dickerson, somehow his grandma buys him a Trans Am. 230 00:17:26,260 --> 00:17:29,200 You know, that's a famous story and he won't talk about it to this day. 231 00:17:29,360 --> 00:17:36,760 My contention is that some of these guys started talking too much and complaining too much about not getting their bag. 232 00:17:37,260 --> 00:17:39,180 And that more or less ruined it. 233 00:17:39,300 --> 00:17:50,560 You know, so getting back to SMU, you know, with Eric Dickerson and Craig James and all those guys, they were, you know, they were one of the top teams, not quite as successful as USC at this point. 234 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:53,520 But they left a couple of years later. 235 00:17:53,660 --> 00:17:55,160 Their program goes on the death penalty. 236 00:17:55,160 --> 00:18:06,680 And as you mentioned in the book, the sanctions that the NCAA imposes affects doesn't affect these guys that took all the money doesn't affect the coaches that can move on. 237 00:18:07,060 --> 00:18:09,460 It affects the next level of kids. 238 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:18,020 And then the whole alumni base or the fan base of these schools get get torched because they didn't catch it in time or they penalized to. 239 00:18:18,120 --> 00:18:21,140 I don't I don't know the answer, but you do mention that. 240 00:18:21,140 --> 00:18:30,020 One of the most poignant interviews I had in there was with Matt Barkley, who was Carroll's last quarterback, freshman phenom, had to start. 241 00:18:30,100 --> 00:18:33,040 Mark Janchez left early for the draft, so he had to start Carroll's last year. 242 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:37,720 He played well, didn't play great, but ended up being one of the greatest USC quarterbacks of all time. 243 00:18:37,820 --> 00:18:40,680 But he was there when the sanctions came down. 244 00:18:41,380 --> 00:18:46,220 And he talked about how difficult it was and how he had nothing to do with it. 245 00:18:46,220 --> 00:18:53,420 He and the other 75 guys on the team, 85 guys on the team, 84 guys on the team, whatever, had nothing to do with that scandal. 246 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:54,680 Zero to do with it. 247 00:18:54,740 --> 00:18:55,740 And they had to deal with it. 248 00:18:55,780 --> 00:19:02,940 So they had to deal with not being able to go to bowl games, you know, literally using walk-ons, you know, sometimes in the starting lineup. 249 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:05,480 But, you know, their whole – there was no depth, right? 250 00:19:05,500 --> 00:19:08,400 Every second stringer was some walk-on kid who just happened. 251 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:09,580 Oh, I played high school football. 252 00:19:09,580 --> 00:19:16,100 and it used to be back in you know the days we talked about earlier john robinson but he would 253 00:19:16,100 --> 00:19:21,000 he would recruit you know they'd have 10 tailbacks that would have started anywhere in the country 254 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:26,540 but they were they were in the depth you know way buried in the depth chart at usc yep yep 255 00:19:26,540 --> 00:19:30,880 it can't you can't recruit well either if you're a great player why would you go to a program that 256 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:36,200 that you know is going to be decimated and can't play on tv and can't play in bowl games you know 257 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:39,380 you're not, you're not going to go there. So yeah, I mean, it's a, it's a, 258 00:19:39,380 --> 00:19:41,280 it's a fascinating thing that happens. 259 00:19:41,580 --> 00:19:44,440 It's really unfortunate what happens really. Cause you know, 260 00:19:44,580 --> 00:19:49,840 Carol left all the other coaches left you know, get away scot-free pretty much. 261 00:19:49,940 --> 00:19:50,860 You know, you say you mentioned, 262 00:19:51,020 --> 00:19:55,500 you interviewed Pete Carroll seven times for the bugger sat down with him 263 00:19:55,500 --> 00:19:59,160 seven times. I was wondering how, 264 00:19:59,460 --> 00:20:04,520 how different he was in a one-to-one setting than the guy we see on the 265 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:11,380 sideline chomping the gum and all excited rah-rah uh he's so funny he goes in waves kind of he always 266 00:20:11,380 --> 00:20:15,320 would start out kind of mellow and then and then he would get hyped up at one point and kind of and 267 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:20,020 then and then kind of come up come you know come off the crest there uh always moving of course 268 00:20:20,020 --> 00:20:25,100 you know always and always moving around um but you know i found him to be incredibly insightful 269 00:20:25,100 --> 00:20:29,880 because now i think he's had time to really reflect on a lot of these things and he was 270 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:34,360 hurt pretty badly you know those every everyone thought not everyone but a lot of people thought 271 00:20:34,360 --> 00:20:42,500 that he left. He saw the bad things coming down. And he's pretty adamant about, like, more than 272 00:20:42,500 --> 00:20:46,660 a lot of coaches who say, nah, nah, that's not the case. I think he sounded like from your 273 00:20:46,660 --> 00:20:52,920 interviews, he's pretty pissed about those allegations. It's his legacy there to some 274 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:56,820 people's eyes, right? And so, you know, he vehemently denies that there are other people who, 275 00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:02,900 you know, who say that, of course, he knew what was going on. Of course, he could tell from the 276 00:21:02,900 --> 00:21:07,900 questions that the NCAA was asking that they were going to be in deep, deep doo-doo. 277 00:21:08,460 --> 00:21:14,100 But this was also a different era than it was in the 80s after SMU. Everybody knew that there are 278 00:21:14,100 --> 00:21:20,820 lines you can't cross. So you're not going to try and get away with the same schemes of SMU, 279 00:21:20,820 --> 00:21:28,540 for crying out loud. That was nuts. And so you mentioned he had, was it Reggie Bush and Matt 280 00:21:28,540 --> 00:21:34,720 sign affidavits six times a year. Yep. His, his compliance, his compliance guy had that. Yeah. 281 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:40,320 So just to, it was sort of like the, and everybody else is required at what, like once or twice. 282 00:21:40,420 --> 00:21:45,280 Well, but most people do it before a bowl game, right. To, to kind of quantify, you know, quantify, 283 00:21:45,420 --> 00:21:50,220 qualify that they're amateurs basically, but their compliance guy had them sign these things, you 284 00:21:50,220 --> 00:21:54,780 know, you know, five or six times a year. Um, you know, again, they're like an honor code at the end 285 00:21:54,780 --> 00:21:59,120 of a at the end of an exam basically you're you're testifying yourself it's not notarized or anything 286 00:21:59,120 --> 00:22:07,180 like that that you're yeah there's there's two two things i really want to attack here as far as the 287 00:22:07,180 --> 00:22:22,000 scandals and the stuff that um usc got themselves into one was the reggie bush uh whole whole thing you can read about all that and the crazy you know players and that whole deal and how nuts it was and how it like the blind leading the 288 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:28,040 blind but um the the other thing you know as far as pete carroll maintaining it i don't know if he 289 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:33,880 necessarily maintains innocence we didn't really do anything wrong the one of the things was i'm 290 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:48,760 I'm reading this. I'm like, Paul D, the University of Miami athletic director is in charge of or the chair of the NCAA committee on infractions who investigates USC. 291 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:58,440 My or Miami's president, Donna Shalala, I believe her name is, comes and talks to either Carol or some administrator at USC because they have peer reviews. 292 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:04,120 but i'm like paul d is the guy it's like the fox in charge of the hen house here 293 00:23:04,120 --> 00:23:09,520 it's crazy i mean we we didn't know that at the time though right it was like not only afterward 294 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:14,220 that that it all came out that paul d was it was you know in charge with the ad at miami when the 295 00:23:14,220 --> 00:23:19,420 whole nevin shapiro scandal and he had celebrate right and that happened after after the bush thing 296 00:23:19,420 --> 00:23:26,280 yeah uh yeah well it came out after the bush thing yeah okay yeah yeah so it's uh it's i mean 297 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:31,960 USC fans and players and all that sort of have a right to be very angry about the way that that whole thing was handled. 298 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:35,060 You know, the committee on infractions didn't seem to be on the up and up. 299 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:40,420 They seem, you know, Carroll's right when he says to a certain degree, you know, for a long, long time, 300 00:23:40,420 --> 00:23:46,760 there were competing teams, competing conferences that thought that USC had an unfair advantage because of this celebrity thing that he, 301 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:51,500 like I said before, because of the fact that Snoop Dogg would give a recruit, you know, a high five. 302 00:23:52,120 --> 00:23:54,980 But UCLA didn't have it. They never did. 303 00:23:54,980 --> 00:24:00,540 well you still just didn't just didn't capitalize on it um they could have had it i guess in theory 304 00:24:00,540 --> 00:24:04,900 but so you know to a certain degree there was one player in there who's quoted and he says uh 305 00:24:04,900 --> 00:24:08,660 you know they shut the party down and that's that's kind of what they did you know it's kind 306 00:24:08,660 --> 00:24:12,900 of like they gave them enough they gave them warnings hey calm it down chill it out don't 307 00:24:12,900 --> 00:24:17,560 have these you know they did have those open practices did leave them vulnerable i mean just 308 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:21,380 to a certain degree their greatest strength with was this sort of vibe and all the fun they were 309 00:24:21,380 --> 00:24:24,280 having stuff like that but also became their cut their biggest weakness right it did leave them 310 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:29,140 vulnerable to agents coming and all this stuff. I mean, there's one scene in there, which I love 311 00:24:29,140 --> 00:24:33,620 when the O-line coach comes down after practice one day into Heritage Hall, which is where the 312 00:24:33,620 --> 00:24:38,980 football offices are. And there are all these agents in there and waiting to talk to the kids. 313 00:24:39,100 --> 00:24:43,400 And he clears the room almost like in the Bible when Jesus clears the temple of the 314 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:48,900 Molders. It's like this great scene where he comes in and he's like, I see something like, 315 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:52,380 I know what a cockroach looks like. And then he clears the whole room of all these guys. So 316 00:24:52,380 --> 00:24:57,040 So, you know, they did leave themselves and they were warned many times, like, you know, calm, chill it out, calm it down. 317 00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:59,560 But, you know, I think at that point it kind of had a life of its own. 318 00:24:59,660 --> 00:25:01,900 It was kind of, you know, could spin wherever it went, you know. 319 00:25:01,900 --> 00:25:16,480 So hypothetically, Lendale White, fourth and two, runs 27 power against University of Texas in the third, potential third national championship game, which I was actually there at the beginning. 320 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:21,920 well i my friends and i we've done this thing called the bowl odyssey where we go to all these 321 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:27,320 different bowl games and we we get tickets somehow or another this game was the first one we not only 322 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:31,200 we were willing to pay several hundred dollars a ticket we just couldn't find one for sale one of 323 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:36,540 my buddies found one for sale and we had like seven of us there and we just like one guy going 324 00:25:36,540 --> 00:25:41,140 like where are we going to watch the game we ended up watching an outback steakhouse in valencia but 325 00:25:41,140 --> 00:25:46,540 But regardless, if he if he gets that extra six inches. 326 00:25:47,740 --> 00:25:51,720 Are we talking about scandals at this point? 327 00:25:52,100 --> 00:25:53,460 It's a great question. 328 00:25:53,580 --> 00:25:56,060 I mean, you know, it was the thing that was fun. 329 00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:57,700 Or would the scandals be worse? 330 00:25:58,140 --> 00:25:58,620 Exactly. 331 00:25:58,620 --> 00:26:05,980 It was so that the beginning of the scandal or, you know, the metaphorical way of saying is the Trojan horse had already entered the city walls. 332 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:08,040 Right. I mean, it had already begun. 333 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:11,880 And Reggie had already started talking to these sports marketers, stuff like that. 334 00:26:11,900 --> 00:26:12,520 So it had already begun. 335 00:26:12,860 --> 00:26:19,040 What's interesting about that Lindale White play to me, and one of the reasons that I just loved writing about it, 336 00:26:19,060 --> 00:26:22,780 was they were literally six inches away from immortality, right? 337 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:24,080 Three in a row. 338 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:25,400 And again, we go back to the modern era. 339 00:26:25,500 --> 00:26:26,760 No one's done that in modern era. 340 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:27,500 No one. 341 00:26:27,820 --> 00:26:30,520 Like what, Bud Wilkinson, Oklahoma days or something? 342 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:34,760 You look back at like, I think Minnesota, University of Minnesota did it back in the 40s or something like that, right? 343 00:26:35,140 --> 00:26:37,780 And no one has really come close to doing it since then. 344 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:44,220 And so, you know, he's he gets if he gets that, you know, the nose of the ball is just a little bit further. 345 00:26:44,460 --> 00:26:46,880 They ice that game. Vince Young never gets the ball back. 346 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:50,260 Or if he does, he gets back with about 10 seconds left and they win three in a row. 347 00:26:50,740 --> 00:26:55,020 And, you know, there's there's an interesting corollary there, too, I think. 348 00:26:55,020 --> 00:26:59,460 I mean, I think if you think about that play, the big criticism of that play was it was kind of under thought. 349 00:26:59,980 --> 00:27:04,700 There was a linebacker, Texas, named Drew Kelson, who was assigned Reggie Bush. 350 00:27:04,700 --> 00:27:09,680 and he's the one who made the sort of big staggering blow on Lenton White. 351 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:11,980 Because Bush wasn't in the game, right? 352 00:27:12,380 --> 00:27:13,680 Bush was not on that play. 353 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:14,440 Bush was not on the game. 354 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:17,760 And there's an interesting, the camera pans to him right before the, 355 00:27:18,140 --> 00:27:19,600 right before Liner hikes the ball. 356 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,340 And he's, he looks perturbed to not be in. 357 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,580 And, you know, so if you have him in there, at least he's occupying, 358 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:26,780 put him in motion or something like that. 359 00:27:26,780 --> 00:27:29,460 He's occupying that one linebacker who made the play. 360 00:27:29,460 --> 00:27:31,580 So you could argue that that play is under thought. 361 00:27:31,580 --> 00:27:39,200 Fast forward a couple of years when Carroll's at the Seahawks and he's on the goal line against the Patriots and they decide to throw the ball. 362 00:27:39,740 --> 00:27:43,900 Russell Wilson end up intercepted as opposed to just giving it to Marshawn Lynch. 363 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:46,240 You could actually argue that that play is overthought. 364 00:27:46,360 --> 00:27:52,540 And I wonder if there's some kind of connection or some kind of corollary between those two kind of pivotal plays in Carroll's career. 365 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:54,860 Did you get to ask Pete about that? 366 00:27:56,420 --> 00:27:57,380 I did. 367 00:27:57,380 --> 00:28:04,680 You know, he's, he's, he's always been really, you know, uh, he, the Lendell white play. 368 00:28:04,740 --> 00:28:05,760 He said he did, he both places. 369 00:28:05,860 --> 00:28:06,360 They do it again. 370 00:28:06,360 --> 00:28:11,680 And Lendell white in particular, even without Reggie Bush there, that play was eight yards 371 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:16,220 again, you know, a carry whenever Lendell got that, you know, that I would agree. 372 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:17,280 It's just the execution. 373 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:21,720 Like the Patriots execution was phenomenal because they, they knew ahead of time, but 374 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:29,260 But also, if Marshawn runs up against the line, just like Lendale does, they're out of time. 375 00:28:30,020 --> 00:28:31,660 Yeah, I mean, they had a little more time there. 376 00:28:31,740 --> 00:28:36,280 The Patriots had to hike the ball, I think, if I remember. 377 00:28:36,340 --> 00:28:36,740 Yeah, they did. 378 00:28:36,820 --> 00:28:37,800 They had to hike the ball at the end of that one. 379 00:28:37,900 --> 00:28:40,560 But it's just so interesting how close. 380 00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:47,480 And if you think about Carroll, he kind of had this historical sort of accident of being around at the same time as Bill Belichick, 381 00:28:47,540 --> 00:28:49,860 who's considered to be the NFL's greatest coach of all time, 382 00:28:49,860 --> 00:28:52,460 and Nick Saban, who's considered to be college football's coach of all time. 383 00:28:52,540 --> 00:28:54,440 So he's kind of, he's drowned out a little bit, 384 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:59,420 but he's one of three men to win both a national title and a Super Bowl. 385 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,420 He came very close, of course, to winning three national titles 386 00:29:02,420 --> 00:29:04,120 and very close to winning in a row 387 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:06,680 and then very close to winning two Super Bowls in a row. 388 00:29:06,820 --> 00:29:10,900 So, you know, he's not probably on the Mount Rushmore of coaches, 389 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:13,560 of football coaches, but, you know, he's up there. 390 00:29:13,620 --> 00:29:15,560 He's top 10, top 12, top 15. 391 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:18,440 You know, you can't really talk about this era of football 392 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:19,640 without talking about Pete Carroll. 393 00:29:19,860 --> 00:29:22,740 And in an unorthodox way. 394 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:25,420 I mean, he did it in a totally different way than Saban and Belichick did. 395 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:25,840 Yeah. 396 00:29:26,340 --> 00:29:32,840 We talked about that Texas-USC national title game, 397 00:29:32,900 --> 00:29:35,680 which you described in great detail, nice set piece. 398 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:40,180 Same thing with that USC game, or excuse me, Notre Dame game, 399 00:29:40,780 --> 00:29:45,340 but with the Bush-Push game where you set this up perfectly. 400 00:29:45,460 --> 00:29:47,920 So there's several of these set pieces in this game. 401 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:56,100 So you really get to understand what's going on, not only on the field, but in the minds of the players, the minds of the coaches, even the fans. 402 00:29:56,220 --> 00:29:59,000 I think it's really wonderful because there's so many things. 403 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:00,220 You just watch it on TV. 404 00:30:00,220 --> 00:30:01,500 You're like, oh, that was cool. 405 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:03,680 Oh, Reggie Bush is great. 406 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:09,580 But there's so much going on behind the scenes or, you know, that led up to this. 407 00:30:09,580 --> 00:30:11,860 And even after the fact, what it meant. 408 00:30:12,500 --> 00:30:12,620 Yeah. 409 00:30:12,620 --> 00:30:25,820 I mean, to me as a football nerd, one of the great privileges of this job is the, I have permission to go ask in detail about these things, you know, like, so it is so, and then, you know, have the privilege of trying to recreate them as well. 410 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:31,080 And like, you know, it's just so fun to ask Pete Carroll, what was going on in the Bush Bush game? 411 00:30:31,100 --> 00:30:31,740 What was the call? 412 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:36,560 It was so fun to ask some of the assistant coaches, like, you know, is that a, is that a play that you practiced? 413 00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:40,880 You know, it's so fun to ask Lindale White, would you run that play again? 414 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:43,700 What did it feel like to not get the first down? 415 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:44,620 You know, that kind of thing. 416 00:30:44,740 --> 00:30:46,260 So, you know, and I love that. 417 00:30:46,260 --> 00:30:54,040 And to a certain degree, I think that Bush push game to some of the members of that 2005 USC team was the more meaningful one anyway. 418 00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:58,680 Like it was it's the one that they that they are not more meaningful, but the one that they think back on more. 419 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:00,940 I think it was such a good game. 420 00:31:01,020 --> 00:31:04,560 It's it's worth a look, you know, go back to YouTube and watch it. 421 00:31:04,580 --> 00:31:05,760 It is such a good game. 422 00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:11,500 Yeah, I was wondering as I was reading this, so you mentioned a lot of the rivalries that USC had. 423 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:16,020 And they're not traditional rivalries that we may think of, but like Washington State got them. 424 00:31:16,620 --> 00:31:17,400 Cal got them. 425 00:31:17,540 --> 00:31:19,280 Oregon State got them a couple times. 426 00:31:19,780 --> 00:31:22,560 And then, of course, you have this Fresno State. 427 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:24,920 I mean, like, okay, Stanford. 428 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:31,940 But really, UCLA and Notre Dame traditionally are USC's big rivals. 429 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:38,740 Where did you come down and saying, like, who was USC's biggest rival during this time? 430 00:31:38,780 --> 00:31:40,360 Because they dominated everybody. 431 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:45,100 But was it – I'd say it's probably going to come down to Notre Dame or UCLA. 432 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:47,780 And outlier, probably Oregon State. 433 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:50,000 I was at that 2008 game, which was amazing. 434 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:50,580 Yeah. 435 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:56,200 I mean, Oregon State beat them twice during this era, which was just amazing. 436 00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:58,420 I mean, they were actually a pretty good program back then. 437 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:00,440 They had some good – Deshaun Jackson, they had some great players. 438 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:04,560 But Stephen Jackson, they have Deshaun too. 439 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:07,080 Didn't they have Deshaun as well? Cal, that's right. 440 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:12,300 So, you know, and Cal beat him with Aaron or almost beat him with Aaron Rodgers. 441 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:16,220 I mean, what was cool about what Carroll did, you know, 442 00:32:16,220 --> 00:32:20,320 he kind of brought a couple of things to the, to the Pac-10 at that time it was called. 443 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:22,660 And he brought defense, right? 444 00:32:22,700 --> 00:32:25,920 I remember as a kid checking out 11 o'clock, you turn on, 445 00:32:25,980 --> 00:32:28,700 see what's going on in the Pac-10 because it was always nuts. 446 00:32:28,700 --> 00:32:34,420 There was no defense ball slung around like that. He brought Carroll, you know, it seems like a vibey. 447 00:32:34,620 --> 00:32:37,980 He almost seems like an offensive coordinator just by his meaner, but he's a defense. 448 00:32:38,020 --> 00:32:44,780 He's a defensive genius. Tutored under Monty Kiffin, who, of course, is Lane Kiffin's father, who was one of the great defensive minds of this generation. 449 00:32:45,500 --> 00:32:52,680 And, you know, he brought defense there, but he also he raised the level of play so much that other schools had to respond. 450 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:58,520 Right. So all of a sudden you had Stanford hiring Jim Harbaugh and Harbaugh turned that program completely around. 451 00:32:58,700 --> 00:33:02,060 You had Oregon getting Chip Kelly, right? 452 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:06,080 So, I mean, it was kind of like this, the whole thing, it was like this rising tide that lifted all boats, right? 453 00:33:06,100 --> 00:33:10,520 And then what's interesting is when USC went down, I think there's a fine line. 454 00:33:10,660 --> 00:33:17,040 You could thread a needle and see the demise of then the Pac-12, it became the Pac-12, and the demise of USC. 455 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:19,100 USC was the anchor school in the West. 456 00:33:19,100 --> 00:33:35,740 Had USC still been nationally relevant in the last 20 years which it really hasn You know there a chance that the Pac might have held on as a conference Once you know USC was out of the picture everybody kind of seemed to you know it was the ebbing tide right 457 00:33:35,780 --> 00:33:37,640 Everybody seemed to come down a little bit. 458 00:33:37,740 --> 00:33:39,140 But, yeah, I mean, I loved all that. 459 00:33:39,140 --> 00:33:46,180 You know, he really forced these other teams, other programs to really step up or get way left behind in the dust. 460 00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:49,000 You know, Saban is sort of the same thing in the SEC, by the way. 461 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:50,500 But yeah, I would agree. 462 00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:55,280 And I think the SEC was always powerful and had that culture of football around it. 463 00:33:55,380 --> 00:33:59,860 But to what we talk about with the SEC now, that is Alabama's doing. 464 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:00,620 Yep. 465 00:34:00,740 --> 00:34:05,320 I mean, a lot of it, of course, Saban assistants who are doing it, right? 466 00:34:05,780 --> 00:34:06,100 Yeah. 467 00:34:06,100 --> 00:34:11,180 Well, you don't talk a ton about Saban necessarily, just other than comparison. 468 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:14,620 But there are several names you do bring up in the book. 469 00:34:14,620 --> 00:34:16,920 one being former 470 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:18,820 USC fullback 471 00:34:18,820 --> 00:34:21,300 who was there before Kiffin, Petros Papadakis 472 00:34:21,300 --> 00:34:23,160 and his family 473 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:24,880 had huge influence 474 00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:26,800 you talk about Mike Riley, I think 475 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:29,000 former assistant at USC, he was the coach 476 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:31,080 at Oregon State, Ed Orgeron 477 00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:33,120 of course, the defensive line 478 00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:35,140 coach, recruiting coordinator, becomes a national 479 00:34:35,140 --> 00:34:36,180 champion at LSU 480 00:34:36,180 --> 00:34:38,940 and then of course Sarkeesian and 481 00:34:38,940 --> 00:34:39,560 Kiffin 482 00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:43,080 I guess my question 483 00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:50,800 is with all these other names that pop up, was there one guy out of those guys that you 484 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:57,840 either got to interview and really learned to like or really got to dislike or both? 485 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:04,600 Got to dislike? No, I mean, my job is to not kind of like or dislike if I can, right? 486 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:09,380 You know, obviously we're humans, right? There are some people, but I have to say my visit with 487 00:35:09,380 --> 00:35:12,120 Lane Kiffin was just absolutely fascinating. 488 00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:13,380 So he was still in Ole Miss. 489 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:14,520 He was in Oxford at the time. 490 00:35:14,720 --> 00:35:17,240 And, you know, he had, when I got into his office, 491 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:18,540 he had just come back from hot yoga. 492 00:35:19,820 --> 00:35:21,560 And, you know, he had a Labrador retriever 493 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:23,060 running in and out of the office 494 00:35:23,060 --> 00:35:25,620 that was kind of like his dog that was named Juice 495 00:35:25,620 --> 00:35:26,720 who became part of the program. 496 00:35:27,420 --> 00:35:30,480 And, you know, he was particularly in sight, really. 497 00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:32,320 I mean, he's such a fascinating, you know, 498 00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:35,460 Carroll's first staff at USC was just incredible, right? 499 00:35:35,460 --> 00:35:37,800 He had Norm, he picked Norm Chow, 500 00:35:37,900 --> 00:35:39,020 plucked Norm Chow out of BYU. 501 00:35:39,020 --> 00:35:42,600 Norm Chow, for those who don't know, was the offensive coordinator there for a long time. 502 00:35:42,660 --> 00:35:48,360 The quarterback coaches, he had coached Jim McMahon, Ty Detmer, Steve Young, just an offensive genius. 503 00:35:48,540 --> 00:35:52,000 Working with athletes who weren't necessarily as good as the athletes he had at USC. 504 00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:55,980 Robbie Bosco, I can't forget Robbie Bosco. 505 00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:58,160 And then he held on to Carroll. 506 00:35:58,340 --> 00:36:04,320 The only real person he held on to from the previous staff was Ed Orgeron, who I think is the best defensive line coach in college football history. 507 00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:06,540 If you look at the people he coached, Warren Sapp, Russell, Maryland. 508 00:36:06,540 --> 00:36:15,380 And then, you know, then he hired these two gun guns, right, who weren't much more than the players they were coaching and Steve Sarkeesian and Lane Kiffin. 509 00:36:15,500 --> 00:36:22,080 Now, Lane Kiffin was a bit of a Nepo hire. I mentioned earlier, you know, Carroll learned a lot from Monty Kiffin. Monty Kiffin was his mentor. 510 00:36:22,660 --> 00:36:27,080 Well, yeah, and he knew he knew him from the Vikings days and even even before that. 511 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:31,660 In fact, in fact, Pete Carroll babysat Lane Kiffin. 512 00:36:31,660 --> 00:36:41,680 Right. And, you know, in this whole LSU, going to LSU thing, you know, it was famously reported that Kiffin talked to Pete Carroll about what he should do. 513 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:44,620 And, you know, who knows how that conversation went. 514 00:36:44,940 --> 00:36:50,680 But, you know, the fact that they had this relationship, however good or bad it was, it goes back. 515 00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:51,860 It's 50 years. 516 00:36:52,160 --> 00:37:01,300 Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, they they called him that they called Lane was his nickname was a toddler was the helicopter because every time he entered a room, he would stir things up, you know, which he is still the helicopter. 517 00:37:01,660 --> 00:37:06,360 It was interesting to talk to Lane about Carroll and about these USC years. 518 00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:09,540 And he gave me a lot of great insight on some of the play calls and some of the players there. 519 00:37:09,620 --> 00:37:14,320 But also, just to think about Lane, you know, here's this offensive genius, right? 520 00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:19,240 And his three main mentors, this was really interesting to me, are all defensive geniuses, right? 521 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:24,040 His father, Monty Kiffin, obviously, Nick Saban, and Pete Carroll. 522 00:37:24,620 --> 00:37:28,480 And, you know, he had this really cool insight on Pete Carroll, which I sort of hinted at before. 523 00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:33,020 He was like, if you didn't know that Pete Carroll was a defensive coordinator, you would think he was an offensive coordinator. 524 00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:35,460 These other guys are so stern and kind of buttoned up. 525 00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:41,000 And here's this freewheeling guy who's going around throwing the ball and trying to kick balls in practice and all that sort of stuff. 526 00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:42,480 You'd think, oh, that guy's an offensive coordinator. 527 00:37:42,740 --> 00:37:44,100 He's throwing the ball like a quarterback. 528 00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:45,440 Yeah, exactly. 529 00:37:45,620 --> 00:37:46,740 You're like, that guy's wacky. 530 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:47,780 He's got to be an offensive coordinator. 531 00:37:48,100 --> 00:37:49,400 So anyway, Lane was great. 532 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:49,740 Oh, good. 533 00:37:50,260 --> 00:37:50,480 Yeah. 534 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:53,280 So how do you think he'll do at LSU? 535 00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:57,060 Do you think that dynamic is going to play in Baton Rouge? 536 00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:01,100 You know, there's a lot of pressure on him, actually. 537 00:38:01,260 --> 00:38:07,000 You know, I think what a lot of people, people haven't thought about what it means for him, you know, for good reasons, right? 538 00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:08,500 I mean, he left a great program. 539 00:38:09,380 --> 00:38:12,880 He is yet, you know, he hasn't won anything yet, which is, you know, which is really interesting. 540 00:38:12,940 --> 00:38:17,780 He's the hottest coaching commodity in the last 15 years, and he hasn't won anything. 541 00:38:17,940 --> 00:38:21,120 So he's got pressure on himself, I think, to perform. 542 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:24,320 You know, he's got Louisiana for whatever reason. 543 00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:27,880 I mean, they grow football players like it's unbelievable. 544 00:38:28,100 --> 00:38:32,160 I mean, just locally, if he can lock down the sword, that's what Nick Saban did when he went to LSU. 545 00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:34,800 He really locked down, just locked down Louisiana. 546 00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:41,380 And then, of course, when Saban went to Alabama, he started pulling all those guys out of Louisiana. 547 00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:45,380 You know, so if he can do that, I think there's just there's an enormous amount of pressure on him. 548 00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:50,040 I'm really fascinated to see how all this turns out, you know, because also he's going to be he's a marked man now. 549 00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:54,260 I mean, he was, you know, some people didn't like him all that much. 550 00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:58,920 I think there are now some, he's got fan bases that hate him, you know, Tennessee being one of them. 551 00:38:59,020 --> 00:39:00,160 And now Ole Miss. 552 00:39:00,620 --> 00:39:03,480 Yeah, Ole Miss is not going to like, my nephew actually goes to Ole Miss. 553 00:39:03,660 --> 00:39:06,900 And so it's pretty, it was a pretty interesting time in December. 554 00:39:07,240 --> 00:39:10,580 It's got to rip your heart out if you're a college kid and you see your coach leave. 555 00:39:10,660 --> 00:39:12,160 It's just got to rip your heart out, you know? 556 00:39:12,500 --> 00:39:16,380 Yeah, but anyway, we can get into that later. 557 00:39:18,020 --> 00:39:19,220 We've got a few minutes left here. 558 00:39:19,220 --> 00:39:25,360 You end the book essentially with Pete Carroll in his fishing cabin. 559 00:39:26,940 --> 00:39:29,860 And I did not know that he was a trout fisherman. 560 00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:30,380 Oh, yeah. 561 00:39:30,660 --> 00:39:30,800 Yeah. 562 00:39:31,300 --> 00:39:34,340 I didn't know that either until I started interviewing him. 563 00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:35,000 Yeah. 564 00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:39,060 Do you know how he got into that or just by virtue of living up there in the Northwest? 565 00:39:39,700 --> 00:39:43,040 Being in the Northwest, he started becoming like a real trout fisherman. 566 00:39:43,180 --> 00:39:46,400 Actually, it's interesting because he's such a kinetic guy who's always moving around. 567 00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:53,820 He's a self-diagnosed ADD, you know, sufferer, which, you know, I think is probably not off the mark. 568 00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:58,980 But I think, you know, there are certain things that he's done throughout his life and his career that kind of calm down. 569 00:39:59,060 --> 00:40:00,620 One of them is surfing and boogie boarding. 570 00:40:00,740 --> 00:40:05,320 But I think, you know, once he got to the Pacific Northwest, there's not a whole lot of surfing up there. 571 00:40:05,460 --> 00:40:13,620 So, you know, this was a great way for him to kind of, you know, focus in and calm down and chill out. 572 00:40:13,620 --> 00:40:20,660 yeah so he loves fish for the rainbow big rainbow trout up there yeah and i you know and then after 573 00:40:20,660 --> 00:40:26,820 the book ends of course like it was already published and he he gets canned by the raiders 574 00:40:26,820 --> 00:40:32,260 um have you talked to him since i have not no i've not but you know it's not surprised i mean 575 00:40:32,260 --> 00:40:36,960 you know i was actually a little bit surprised i think these guys all want one more shot right i 576 00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:40,920 mean look look at bill belichick they all want especially those guys you know who were really 577 00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:44,420 really good. Like I deserve one more shot. And, but I was a little surprised he took that job. 578 00:40:44,500 --> 00:40:49,920 If you remember, if you remember in the book, there's a point when Al Davis, Mark Davis is 579 00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:53,820 the current owner's father, uh, is trying to hire Steve Sarkeesian. 580 00:40:54,100 --> 00:40:57,480 Right. I didn't know that. I didn't know that. I didn't know that Sarkeesian was the first guy. 581 00:40:57,540 --> 00:40:59,500 And then Kiffin was floppy seconds. 582 00:40:59,920 --> 00:41:04,120 First, first guy. And then Carol grabs the phone and says, Hey man, you got to look in this guy, 583 00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:09,960 Lane Kiffin. And then, you know, Carol has a not very, uh, you know, nice thing to say about the 584 00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:11,460 craziness of the Raiders' ownership. 585 00:41:11,700 --> 00:41:13,340 And it's not like it's gotten any saner. 586 00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:15,440 So I'm a little surprised he took that job. 587 00:41:15,580 --> 00:41:19,780 And also, you know, it was that roster has to be the worst in the NFL. 588 00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:21,980 They had two good players. 589 00:41:22,240 --> 00:41:27,460 I was going to say, man, like, you know, you look at the Raiders, 590 00:41:27,620 --> 00:41:29,620 I was like, man, Pete Carroll took this job. 591 00:41:29,980 --> 00:41:31,200 They're going to be so crummy. 592 00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:35,640 They got Gentry as running back, but really around it, nobody. 593 00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:36,700 Max Crosby. 594 00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:39,040 And Brock Bowers, and that's it. 595 00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:40,500 yeah, Bowers. 596 00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:43,320 And then they knock off the Patriots. 597 00:41:43,460 --> 00:41:45,300 Who knows? They might go to the Super Bowl. 598 00:41:45,500 --> 00:41:47,140 They knock them off, I think, week one or two. 599 00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:49,060 And man, maybe 600 00:41:49,060 --> 00:41:51,140 Pete's got some magic and then it just 601 00:41:51,140 --> 00:41:53,180 it's a dumpster fire the rest of the season. 602 00:41:53,820 --> 00:41:55,000 And to your point, 603 00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:57,320 he had one of the worst rosters 604 00:41:57,320 --> 00:41:59,320 thanks to a lot of 605 00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:01,560 these trades and firings 606 00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:02,840 and all this stuff for the last 607 00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:04,200 five years or whatever. 608 00:42:05,060 --> 00:42:06,860 And he's left with nothing, but 609 00:42:06,860 --> 00:42:08,860 we'll see how that goes. I don't know. 610 00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:15,360 Um, all right. Uh, well, this is, this has been awesome, Monty. I appreciate your time. Um, 611 00:42:15,620 --> 00:42:21,020 last thing I want to ask you just totally unrelated as a fellow angler, where, uh, 612 00:42:21,020 --> 00:42:27,360 what's your favorite fish or river? Favorite. I do a lot of, uh, I can't narrow it down to one 613 00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:32,140 favorite fish. I would say tarpon and Atlantic salmon are my favorite two fish. They're one, 614 00:42:32,220 --> 00:42:36,260 one A and one B. And I won't tell you which ones they'd be, uh, in terms of rivers. I love the 615 00:42:36,260 --> 00:42:41,100 henry's fork out in idaho but i also i live in brooklyn and so the catskills are very close to me 616 00:42:41,100 --> 00:42:45,360 and i just love and there's great history in the catskills there's great wild trout 617 00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:49,840 it reminds me of the south it's got a lot like you know there's like a japanese knot wood which 618 00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:54,780 looks like a kudzu and there's like a little hint of kind of redneck menace up there like 619 00:42:54,780 --> 00:42:59,580 moon shiners and distant reports and stuff like that so i've always loved i just love the catskills 620 00:42:59,580 --> 00:43:04,000 so but i do a lot of fishing here believe it or not here in new york city i know i was reading 621 00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:08,720 about that. This fascinates me. I've fished in the Boston Harbor for stripers and bluefish and 622 00:43:08,720 --> 00:43:13,800 stuff like that. But, uh, I just like the level of dedication that you have for that is, uh, 623 00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:19,520 off the charts. Yeah. But, um, anyway, it's been great. Uh, maybe we can pick that fishing 624 00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:23,900 conversation up another time, but I appreciate your, uh, your time. That's great. Thanks for 625 00:43:23,900 --> 00:43:31,040 having me on. Appreciate it. Thanks. Thanks for listening to our conversation with Monty Burke 626 00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:35,100 about Men of Troy, the epic afternoons, wild nights, 627 00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:38,180 and enduring legacy of Pete Carroll's USC Trojans. 628 00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:40,120 And it's one of the most fascinating runs 629 00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:41,680 any college program has ever had. 630 00:43:42,100 --> 00:43:44,680 So if you enjoyed the episode, please follow the show, 631 00:43:45,540 --> 00:43:46,560 leave a rating or review, 632 00:43:46,620 --> 00:43:48,700 and share it with another college football fan. 633 00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:51,540 And if you're serious about turning your own writing 634 00:43:51,540 --> 00:43:55,140 into a business, don't forget to visit o'learywriters.com. 635 00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:57,180 That'll take you to my Substack Success Blueprint, 636 00:43:57,620 --> 00:43:59,320 where I walk you through proven systems 637 00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:02,740 to grow from zero subscribers to real revenue 638 00:44:02,740 --> 00:44:04,800 with practical step-by-step strategies 639 00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:06,220 you can start using today. 640 00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:08,440 And that's at o'learywriters.com. 641 00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:09,940 Thanks again. 642 00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:30,320 Thank you.