you're listening to the brian d o'leary show your sanctuary for serious content in an unserious
culture all right today we got mark kurlansky with us and mark is the author of brand new book
To Catch A Fish by Story Publishing, March 31st, 2026.
That's today as we're recording.
Mark, welcome.
Thank you.
Mark, I've been reading your stuff for darn near 30 years, I think.
Oh, right.
Yeah, I came across a book that you might probably are best well known for called Cod,
and I thought it was just a magnificent history, a biography of the fish, I think you call it.
You know, you've got your timing exactly right.
because this year, a 30-year anniversary edition of COD is coming out.
Is that right?
Oh, wow.
We'll have to publicize that here, too.
But, yeah, like I said, today we're talking about to catch a fish.
And you've written a number of books on fishing, fly fishing specifically.
You're a former commercial fisherman in an old life, it sounds like, huh?
In my youth.
In your youth, yeah.
And, uh, and, and you've also, another one of my major interests is baseball.
And, uh, I wanted to talk quick before we get into this book today, but you wrote a book
that blew my mind called Eastern stars.
And it was, and it was a history of baseball in the Dominican Republic, particularly about
the Eastern stars or, um, Estrella's orientalis and the town of San Pedro de Macarys, the
cradle of shortstops.
How did you think to write that book?
Well, it was kind of an evolution.
I spent a lot of time in the Caribbean.
I covered the Caribbean for the Chicago Tribune for about 10 years.
And I had always wanted to write a book about a Caribbean town.
and then I started thinking about this particular town that had produced so many major league
baseball players and I thought this would be a great town to write about yeah and yeah that
dovetails with you know my interests which are you know primarily baseball and fly fishing so
It was wonderful to have you on here.
And so this book recently released To Catch a Fish.
It's not a specifically a fly fishing book, but you talk about fly fishing a lot.
How did you get into fly fishing to begin with?
Well, I didn't start with fly fishing.
Like most of us.
Right.
I started as a little kid with a worm.
and then I went from there like a lot of people do in New England where I'm from
if you don't happen to own a boat you become a surfcaster and I did surf casting for a lot of
years and you know both fishing all kinds of fishing when I had the opportunity
and bit by bit I started experimenting with fly fishing and um you know it just uh consumes you
it does I was trying to avoid saying it hooks you you know um yeah I mean it's uh it's the most
challenging way to fish and so it's the most interesting yeah and when I when I was reading
reading your book and you talk about you know all the different species of fish you can catch
particularly in fly fishing and you have a section there about striped bass fishing and
but i think when most of us or most people not necessarily me but most people when they think
about fly fishing they think about trout fishing and you dedicate a good amount of time would you
agree with that assessment i think is all fly fishing kind of couched in trout fishing and
then expands for well well that or salmon salmon yeah i mean fly fishing for salmon is a great
experience both pacific species and atlantic salmon yeah and i come from the northwest
originally oregon and oh well then then you know salmon fishing right well i don't really fly fish
for salmon i but i fly fish for trout particularly rainbow trout in steelhead right i have fly fish
for Atlantic salmon, but as you mentioned in the book,
in North America anymore, there's not many left.
In Europe either.
Yeah, right. All around.
You see a lot of salmon at the stores.
Atlantic salmon in the stores is all farmed.
It is all farmed no matter what they tell you.
I don't think there's any legal commercial fishery
for Atlantic salmon anymore.
Yeah, unless it's down in South America
where they're not native.
right right yeah i had a chance to go to uh the gas bay peninsula about 20 years ago for
about a week fishing for atlantic salmon and i hooked one hooked one in that entire week
that was exciting enough i guess well i'll tell you something i fished for atlantic salmon
in a number of places and all totals you know how many i've caught one one landed one huh
I landed one in Scotland.
Oh, wow.
That's the birthplace.
And what really struck me was that everybody I knew in Scotland was sending emails about it.
Oh, wow.
I mean, it was unusual enough to talk about.
Yeah.
And you, early on in this book, you talk about fish just in general and don't have the exact quote, but you talk about them being smart and fish being smart.
And you have a prescription at the tail end of the book about how a fish should be able to avoid being caught.
Yes, I hope fish read this book so that they can avoid it.
Exactly.
Yeah, why not?
But you talk about them being smart.
I do a lot of catch and release.
Yeah, yeah.
As do I.
When I release a fish, when I put it back in the river, I always say, and let that be a lesson to you.
Yeah, there you go.
uh, we talked about the fish being smart and I was, you know, in the fly fishing industry for years,
did retail, was a guide, uh, worked for several companies around that. But I got turned on to the
idea, you know, cause I grew up thinking, Oh, these fish are so smart. You know, they're so
wily, but there was a fellow named Gary Borger. He's a, he's a scientist. I think he was at Penn
State University at one time. He was actually the consultant to Robert Redford on A River Runs
Through It, who you mentioned this book and the movie toward the end. But he said, they can't be
smart. Their brains are the size of pencil erasers. Well, but the rest of it isn't that big either.
Come on. Yeah, right. Yeah. So anyway, I think it's splitting hairs a little bit, but I think we
we project a lot upon these wonderful animals that we fish for.
We do, but, but, you know,
there's some things that they do that you just, you know,
you just have to wonder like the way you do, if you're,
if you're finding a sockeye salmon and you finally get it to the point where
you just about got it to the net and it kind of looks up and turns around and
darts out to see again, you think, you know, this animal is thinking.
No, they're wonderful. And you know,
my life has been fishing.
Like I said,
like fishing and baseball for the most part,
those are the,
the,
the real passions in my life.
And,
you know,
those are the,
those are the two important things.
Yes,
exactly.
Yeah.
I want to talk about a little bit about the,
the literature that you mentioned in the book.
Let's talk first,
maybe about a river runs through it.
You,
you more or less toward the end of the book,
this book was just so revolutionary.
I don't actually know about the book.
The book came out in, what, 1976, almost 50 years ago.
But then the movie came out in the early 90s.
Yeah.
You know, Redford wanted to do it.
And McLean, the author, didn't want him to.
And fought him for a long time.
And finally said, okay, go ahead and do it.
And, you know, he died before the movie came out.
All right.
And I didn't realize that there was a little tension there.
But I was listening to a podcast with Tom McGuane, who you also mention in the book.
Right.
You know a famous writer and angler himself And he said it was it was podcast with Andy mill And he told Andy that he gave the book to Redford originally
Cause I think Redford wanted to do something about the West and the wild,
the way,
you know,
he's getting into Sundance and all that stuff.
But anyway,
he gave him the book.
And,
uh,
like I said,
Borgia was the,
uh,
the consultant there,
but Gary's son,
Jason was the stunt double for Brad Pitt and apparently Brad Pitt can't fish
with a lick. So none of that stuff was, was Brad Pitt. It was all Jason Forger.
But that's okay because you know, you can't,
you really can't catch a trout that way. No. And that, that,
that's what I wanted to get to. Fantastic casts, you know,
they look great in the movie, but that's not how you do it.
That's what I wanted to get to.
And I think people coming to fly fishing brand new,
they see this movie, which is an iconic movie, and they see the guy casting, you know, the beautiful cast, and he's not tangled and all this stuff.
And, you know, of course, in the book and in the movie, they talk about how he has to wave it around to look like a salmon fly or stone fly or whatever it is.
It's about hogwash because you just want your fly in the water as much as possible to catch fish.
The trout is looking up at the sky to watch the flight patterns.
Exactly.
When I started doing this and I saw people, you know, they're whipping the fly around.
I was like, no, no, no, no.
I often wonder about that if people see that movie and then start casting like that.
It's absolutely true, but they have no, they have no way.
First, they don't know how to cast and then they try and do this fancy shadow casting.
And guess what happens?
well you get all sorts of knots and tangles in your line what happens when you have a knot in
your leader well you get a fish on and it breaks off right the only time you do a cast anything
like that is if you're fishing with a dry fly and the fly gets the fly gets too wet sure and you want
to whip it around in the air a little bit to dry it off but that's not how you'll catch a fish yeah
when i was guiding i was like i got so frustrated with this i why do people do this you know like
because they saw the movie they saw the movie right and and so you know they're they're out
here with the brand new rod brand new reel brand new fly line brand new waders all this stuff
but they can't fish worth a lick and it's like no i'll i'll just show you put the put the fly here
flip it out and you don't have to cast very far and you'll catch some fish but they of course
people continue to want to to want to do that yeah i i would just i would just say though that
it's a lovely movie it is a lovely movie and and it doesn't teach you it doesn't teach you how to
fly fish but it teaches you why correct and with this this whole shadow casting and all that stuff
i developed what i call o'leary's first law of fly fishing and i said thou cannot cast thyself
out of a tangle so i see people like oh no we're tangled up let me let me just try and finish the
well no you have to stop and untangle yourself because you're in a mess and the fish inevitably
Whether they're smart or not, whenever you get a fish on, or if you are in a tangle, the fish start rising and jumping and they're hopping all around you.
And the timing of this thing is quite unique.
I always think, and this is probably just my imagination, but when trout start jumping up like that, I think they're making fun of me.
Yeah, yeah.
They're just laughing at me.
You talk in the book, you have a big section.
And I actually wrote a, I was telling my wife this after I read your book or actually right as soon as I got the book, I turned it to the index and the bibliography.
And I'm like, man, he reads a lot of the books or a lot of books that I've read.
So I wrote this paper in college, the history of fly fishing.
And I was like, geez, did he copy my bibliography from 25 years ago or whatever it was?
And there's a lot of the same books.
But a lot of these books that you have in your bibliography are foundational texts to the entire sport.
Right.
But one book you mentioned, it was, oh gosh, about women in fly fishing, Lila Foggia.
I think she's from Oregon too, I believe.
But I read that one and we don't have a ton of women in the sport.
But you give pretty thorough women, influential women in the sport of fly fishing and how they have really developed a lot of the creature comforts.
Yeah. And, you know, Orvis and a lot of the people in the industry now say that the fastest growing demographic in fly fishing is women.
Yeah, I don't doubt it. When I was involved, there were like clubs, like women's fly fishing clubs.
And I took one time I took this group of, I don't know, like 10 women out learning how to fly fish.
And, you know, probably a percentage wise, this just goes with any demographic.
A few of them continue, but it was pretty neat to see them all together.
But one thing that I learned that you didn't have in here because you talked about the waiters and how like women want to be comfortable.
Of course, we all want to be comfortable.
So all this equipment comes from wanting to be more comfortable as opposed to having galoshes and all this stuff.
But the fishing rods or fly rods, maybe specifically, the grips used to be made of rattan, from what I understand.
And there were so many women getting involved in fishing whenever they did this change.
They said, I need something softer on my hand.
So then now we have cork on our handles.
And thank you, women of fly fishing, for that, because I can't imagine holding a rattan handle all day long.
Right. And also some lighter rods.
Lighter rods. Exactly.
Oh, I was going to say, Joan Wolf, she is so influential and perhaps in the general public not given enough credit because she was a wonderful flycaster.
obviously the the wife of the great lee wolf but she created this fly casting it's almost like a
toy but it's not a toy it's a it's a tool to learn how to learn how to cast with with just a small
lightweight rod and a piece of yarn to make sure that you get your loops right and i we we have one
here at the house for the for the boys so and and and my daughter yeah when she was she came from a
dancing back then that's what you mentioned i was not aware of that before i read yeah and you know
i i saw that work because uh my daughter was a dancer from a very young age she started in ballet
and uh i mean you taught her a cast you didn't even have to show it to her you just explained it
and she did it perfectly and she just and she understood the rhythm of it and the balance of it
and you know dance is a great background for fly fishing yeah i don't doubt it i mean what you
mentioned in the book is that it teaches one or the woman or the girl in particular but any dancer
how to use your entire body to do these magnificent feats that you know you think like oh cast 100
feet or cast 200 feet like this little person can't do this you have this big hulking human
being it's no you really don't you have to harness all your body's capability and you know some of
the some of the best fly casters are relatively slight people yeah yeah well my my fantasy is to
have been able to one day go fly fishing with uh new yam with rudolph new yam the great dancer okay
I don't know if he, he probably never did go fly fishing.
We're going to get right back to the show in a second here, folks, but I need to stop and ask you a direct question.
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Now back to Mark Kurlansky.
You just gave him a few pointers. He probably would have been incredible.
Yeah. And it's, it's interesting, you know, with fishing, there's people that really enjoy it.
And there's people that, that don't care, but I don't know.
is it Americans or Westerners or something?
There's something about the rivers and the,
in a lot of the places we all grow up,
people are aware of just fishing in general.
It is,
is ubiquitous even though maybe fly fishing is a very specific skill.
Did you come across that or have any comments on the ubiquitousness of fishing
in the culture?
Well,
yeah,
I mean,
it's,
it's in all cultures.
Um,
except for certain
Buddhists who think it's immoral.
I was in Tibet and I saw some great rivers there.
And I thought, no one's ever fished these rivers
because it's not allowed.
I just sneak out one day and fish
one of these rivers. I bet it would be fantastic.
I didn't.
You talk a lot about the, one chapter in particular
about the irish and i myself being of irish extraction i appreciated that quite a bit you
talk about yates who i didn't read a whole lot of but he also talked about morris walsh
and his fishing stories and he was a guy have you have you have you have you read them
i haven't it was oh read it read it i will and i was going to get to that it is it is so fantastic
And I have to tell you, it is so Irish.
Yeah.
And so I was going to say, like, throughout this book, it's a bunch of small, short essays, really, I guess, is how you would describe your book.
But it's not like one of these fishing books that I grew to despise where you would write these flowing, flowery essays about the sport.
No, you're just telling me how it is and what it is.
And so what I liked about this, when you talked about the Irish culture around fishing and fly fishing in particular, is that it gave me a lot of resources to go back to.
And, you know, because I say like, oh, I just checked out your bibliography.
I read all almost all those books.
And then I got to thinking after reading, it's like just when you think you've read a lot, you realize you haven't read very much.
and so this book is full of not only resources but your take on what these resources and i appreciate
you talking about walsh because he also wrote the quiet man which is one of my favorite john wayne
movies although although quite different from the story oh yeah in the story uh he is irish he's uh
uh uh republican even um and uh and he returned to ireland to fight and uh
uh and he's not a heavyweight and uh so his his would-be brother-in-law is kind of a heavyweight
but the thing is he knew how to box but it's just all about fishing you know it's
i remember the moment where i realized i loved ireland
and have you gone fishing over there i have i have yeah in the blackwater river county cork
salmon river but i was in galway um at a pub talking with some marine biologists because i
was writing a book about salmon and so we're in the pub drinking you know guinness after guinness
good man and and what did they i mean they got into this great debate about fishing and about
what flies on that local river and then from there it went on to a discussion of dogs
and from there it went on to a discussion about literature uh-huh poetry and i thought
people who love poetry dogs and fishing this is a great country you know and one of my favorite
lines in this book is
not about fishing, but
about Irish poets.
So the poets are to Ireland,
but cheese is to France.
That's true, yeah.
I went to Boston College.
Oh, did you?
Yeah, and we had,
I wasn't fortunate to take
his class because it filled up way too soon,
but Seamus Haney, the
famous Irish poet, taught
at least one semester, came over
and taught for
for a few weeks or something. I think some, there was another professor that, but I,
he had a, he had a poem that I really liked about, uh, trout and actually, I actually,
believe it or not, took a class learning Irish, the language. And we had to write a poem in that
class. And I wrote a poem about a rainbow trout. I was about 20 years old and, uh,
I wrote this poem in Irish.
I have it somewhere,
but I didn't really know the language,
right?
It was essentially translating and I wrote my English poem,
then trying to translate it.
And,
um,
I didn't think it was very good,
but man,
the teacher was like,
can I take this and use this for my class?
I'm like,
yeah,
sure.
Fine.
Whatever.
So I don't know whatever happened to that poem,
but it's,
it's around here somewhere.
Well,
you know,
rainbow trout aren't Irish.
Well,
I was,
you should have,
you should have done a brown trout.
I think I was, yeah, it was maybe just about a trout, but I was thinking rainbow trout because that's where I'm from.
Right.
From the Northwest.
Well, you know, they've planted rainbow trout everywhere in the world.
They were originally only in certain Western rivers.
And it is one of the all-time greatest fly fishing targets.
They're everywhere now.
I think you mentioned 50 states.
I'm like, what about Hawaii?
I don't know.
There's a place in, like, isn't it the island of Kauai that you can go rainbow trout fishing?
Yes.
Something like that.
But, you know, in Vermont, I fished in Vermont, and nobody wants to catch the local fish.
The brook trout.
Yeah, the brookies.
Everybody's disappointed when they get a brookie because they want a rainbow.
The rainbows aren't from there.
The brookie is the local trout.
It gets no respect at all.
Yeah, it is the way of things.
I think it was the McLeod River rainbow trout was the most, because they were, they're bigger than say the, like the desert red bands of Oregon and stuff.
But man, I think you mentioned in the book somewhere that pound for pound, the rainbow trout is the hardest fighting fish or the best fighting fish or something.
I would, something I would absolutely agree with.
Yeah.
I tell people about a 14, 15 inch rainbow trout.
You can't beat it for fun.
Oh yeah.
I, I've fished in, uh, in Russia.
in uh with some chotka sure and they have huge rainbow trout and they also have salmon
and it's kind of hard to tell when you first get a hit on your line if you've got a trout or a
salmon because uh this trout is so strong i was fishing for salmon up in alaska and i with a
two-hander like seven weight two-handed rod i think it was and i got this fish on and good grief
it was probably like a 24 inch rainbow trout you know thick as and i thought it was like one of the
biggest accomplishments because you know steelhead fishing in oregon and washington like that's a
pretty pretty good size fish so a small for a steelhead but it's still a pretty good size fish
i was like this is just a rainbow trend this is what lives in the river here good grief right
Yeah.
No, Alaska's fantastic.
Those rivers.
I love the way those rivers have these virgin banks, you know?
It's just wild.
Yeah, you talk about Kamchaka, too.
I mean I don know if you mention it in the book but man a friend of mine had guided over there for a few years And then I clearly can do that now because of the political situation But he just I don know
I think maybe the whole fishing thing in Russia has shut down.
Yeah, I think you're right.
It's true.
God, it was an incredible experience.
They take you up into these remote areas in forgotten old Red Army helicopters.
these ancient huge uh helicopters that the red army used to use to deploy troops
take you into the wild you talk a lot about fly fishing in the book but it's not everything
you talk about in the book no i even get into commercial fishing i love commercial fishing
so how did you get into that well needed a job paid the money i did it well i needed a job
and I had this idea
because I always wanted to be a writer
and I always had this idea
that if I wanted to be a writer, I should do
interesting things.
When I first graduated from high school,
I was 17 years old
and I thought it would be an interesting thing
to get a job as a commercial fisherman.
It was. It was great.
Where did you go out of? Gloucester?
No, Fisher's Island.
Okay.
We go and we fish
really off of Rhode Island,
the trenches off of Rhode Island.
And what type of fish were you catching there, typically?
Bluefish?
Well, no, the job I had was lobster.
Oh, lobster. You were a lobsterman.
Right. But then I experimented.
I did a little bit of other stuff,
bottom dragging, stuff like that.
But I mainly worked on lobster boats.
Oh, wow.
And I have a book coming out next year on lobsters.
Okay.
It's a very personal book.
I have a deep personal relationship with lobsters.
I believe it.
Yeah.
And yeah, you mentioned lobster a little bit in the book.
You talk about how, you know, it's interesting.
When I first got into fly fishing, the striped bass were, I don't know if they were endangered.
They might've been.
They've made a major comeback.
However, like it's huge in Massachusetts down to say Virginia or the Carolinas.
It's really big there.
however you go up north to maine when maine is the state you talk about lobster that's their
state animal i think or something like that and it's the main lobsters are you know just iconic
when we talk about maine and you mentioned in the book that they don't like striped bass all that
much up in maine because they eat all the salmon and they eat all the lobsters that's right
they're not happy well they're very happy you want to go up there and fish for strikers they're
We're very happy to have you come and take them.
And take them.
Yeah, right.
Can't do that with the salmon.
Yeah.
One last thing I want to talk about.
You talk a bit about the Hemingways.
Father and son.
Ernest Hemingway, of course, iconic American author.
But his son, a lot of people don't know about him.
One of his sons, Jack Hemingway.
He wrote a book called Misadventures of a Fly Fisherman.
I think it was.
I read that in college.
And actually, it turned me on to read even more Hemingway.
I'd read Old Man and the Sea and maybe a few other books early on.
But I started reading his father, Ernest Hemingway, quite a bit.
I really enjoyed him.
The more I found out about him, however, later I got in life, I grew to kind of despise him.
And then I was like, you know, how does Jack Hemingway, you know, he turns,
Ernest Hemingway is this big braggadocio, turns into a big braggadocio sail fisherman out in the Gulf Stream and stuff.
But no, early on in life, he was a fly fisherman.
And he taught his boys how to fly fish.
And you talk about the big two-hearted river in there.
It's one of my favorite stories in the book.
So Jack decides he wants to fly fish in all of Papa's great rivers.
So he goes up to the Two-Harted River and he fishes and he couldn't catch anything.
And he said to Papa, he said, you know, I tried the Two-Harted River and I couldn't do anything.
And Papa says, yeah, it's a lousy river for fishing.
I just like the name.
It is a wonderful name and it makes for a great story.
but in that story,
you talk about it, he's fishing
with fly tackle, except he puts a
grasshopper on the end of it.
It's really bait fishing.
Bait fishing.
But he takes these grasshoppers and he
fishes them like a fly,
like an artificial fly.
I don't know how that works. I've never
seen that down.
I'm sure it can be done. It's light enough, I would imagine.
I could probably do it.
But I think that is one of
the great fishing stories.
agreed and it and i think you talk about you mentioned earlier here with us you talk about
like what river runs through it's like it doesn't tell you how to do it but tells you why right and
there's a lot of the why of why we're out there in nature why we're out there with the fish what
it means to to us and i think we can all uh relate to that and of course one of the interesting
things about that story is that that character uh had ptsd he had come back from the war from
world war one right um and and he was going fishing almost as therapy it is therapy that's
why and we've we've since learned now it's a common practice thing to help veterans to take
some fly fishing uh yeah i have a friend of mine whose father was very involved with taking uh
essentially wounded veterans and take some,
take them out on the river and just get them out there and go fishing for the
day.
And then it becomes a passion for life.
And I think this book,
I would just encourage our listeners to go out and get it because it's one of
these books.
I,
I whipped through it no time flat.
It's got a wonderful illustrations and there's,
they're very short essays that you can sit down and read one at a time or read
the whole book at a time,
but it's great just to have around and you could even skip through and,
and read any given one of these essays in no time flat. And it's Mark,
it's, it's, it's just wonderful reading. And I just want to congratulate you on that.
Well, thank you. I, I, I had a great time writing it.
You know, it's something about just writing about things you love.
Yeah. And I think maybe that's the call to action for people to go write and do
things that you love doing because it is sounds like really molded your life to be able to go
and write about and do the things that you're passionate about yeah i mean you know when you
wait out in a river and you feel that current pushing against your legs and you know that
trout is out there waiting for you it's just there's no greater feeling yeah i agree um mark
This has been wonderful.
I know you got to bounce for another appointment.
A big day for you.
Launch of a new book, To Catch a Fish, by Story Publishing, March 31st, 2026.
Any last words, Mark?
No, it's great talking to you.
It's always great talking about fishing, isn't it?
It sure is.
Yeah, I appreciate it.
Hopefully keep in contact with you.
There's a lot of stuff perhaps to talk about in the future with these new books coming out.
Yeah.
The re-release of COD, which was, like I said earlier, a really transformative book for me.
Okay. Well, thank you.
Appreciate it, Mark.
Okay. Good talking.
Okay. Take care.
All right.
Bye-bye.
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