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All right, everyone, a quick podcast update. The TLDR is that I'm now offering subscriptions on

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Fountain. If you're interested, please listen. If not, skip ahead a minute and 30 seconds and

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continue enjoying the episodes as you always have. About a year and a half or two years ago,

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I was talking to the Fountain team and told them if they ever started to offer a podcast hosting

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platform that I would be interested in being one of the first people to try it. They're just

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launching that feature. So I've moved my podcast host from where it was previously to Fountain.

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And one of the things that Fountain makes really easy is offering subscriptions.

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So as of this episode, if you want to subscribe, you can have access to ad free episodes.

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I'm also beginning to record bonus content for each interview episode, which of course

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doesn't include the roundup episodes.

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So a couple times per month, you'll be getting some additional content from the guests discussing

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whatever they think might be valuable for you, the listener.

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Another thing I've done in the past that was very well received that I'm planning to continue

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doing on a more consistent basis is roundtable discussions and anyone who subscribes to the

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podcast will get access to those either to attend and participate live or to listen to after the

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fact. I personally don't think that ad free episodes are worth $5 a month, but I do think

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this additional content could be beneficial. So if you want to give it a try, great. If not,

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like I said, keep on listening to the podcast as you always have, nothing will change. Generally,

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I'll release the bonus interview content the same day an interview goes live. But for today's

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interview, I'll actually be releasing that next week. After that, you can expect bonus content

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every couple of weeks, in addition to those roundtable discussions. For those who are

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interested, I'll see you on the other side. Is there a way to get to a $10 million Bitcoin

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without the financialization of the asset? Bitcoin is in competition with other store

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value assets. I think Bitcoin in that case is going to eat a large chunk of those equity and

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fixed income or debt markets because they're not actually scarce.

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Wall Street has no issue financializing Bitcoin. Do you see the Bitcoinization of finance

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as a way to bring Bitcoin principles into Wall Street and into finance?

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Paper Bitcoin is a threat to Bitcoin. Bitcoin's super feature is that anyone can take custody of

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it in 10 minutes around the world. There's really no excuse for Bitcoin not to settle

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at the end of a trade. If you had to make a prediction right now, would you say that the

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financialization of Bitcoin will likely lead to higher highs or will it be something that

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in the end maybe hurts more than it helps? Welcome to the Bitcoin Playbook, where we discuss

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proven strategies for using Bitcoin in your business. I'm your host, Josh Friedemann,

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And our guest today is Wyatt O'Rourke, who is the CEO of a wealth management firm called Basilic and the author of The Bitcoinization of Finance.

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Here is Wyatt O'Rourke. Wyatt, welcome to the podcast.

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Dude, thanks so much for having me. I'm stoked to be here.

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So I like to start off every single interview with a few questions that help us to get to know you a little bit better and give us some insight for our own lives.

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Are you ready for these?

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Absolutely.

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Question number one is this. When and how did you first learn about Bitcoin?

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Yes, it's honestly kind of a meme, but I'm pretty sure it was like 2017 and a kid I knew in college was participating in some illicit activities using Bitcoin.

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And at the time, I was studying finance.

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And so it just like fit the narrative perfectly, which is kind of a shame, you know, among other things like, oh, you know, it doesn't cash flow.

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You know, it's like I was unfortunately like I didn't know it at the time, but, you know, getting brainwashed by Keynesian economics.

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but in 2020 when I was locked in my apartment with my roommate Noah he was just berating me

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about Bitcoin and I you know I kind of escaped so I finally gave in and listened to the investors

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podcast Press and Pish that was my first Bitcoin podcast and really just you know the rest is

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history dove down the rabbit hole there I think that was in like one of his first 10 episodes and

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I just loved it. Question number two, what's an insight or fact about Bitcoin that you wish

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everyone understood? Yeah, I wish people knew or fully grasped like how truly decentralized and

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anti-fragile this is, you know, and I'm kind of, yeah, I came to Bitcoin kind of from the finance

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lens. That's, you know, what my background is, you know, have a wealth management firm. So I

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generally I'm talking to people about like the finance or money or economics angle. So it's a

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little bit harder for me to introduce this. I think you got to be a little bit more technical,

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but I think this is like one of the most beautiful things about Bitcoin. And it's very hard to find,

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create or maintain decentralized systems. And when we find them, I think we should really cherish and

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and protect them. And so I just think there's so much value that comes out of a decentralized

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system and not having a country company or entity that can be in control of the Bitcoin network is

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extremely important. Question three, what's the Bitcoin resource you most recommend to other

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people? The Bitcoinization of finance. That really, if you're into that, I do think it's a

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great resource. I am a podcast junkie. There's a bunch of great ones out there. But honestly,

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I mainly advocate for Bitcoiners to lean into their local communities, like get involved with

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your local BitDevs, your Bitcoin and beer. It's just I think there's so much more you can learn

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about Bitcoin in person just from interacting with clubs in real life.

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Beyond Bitcoin, what is a resource, tool or idea that's been helpful to you or your work recently?

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Yeah, totally. So over the last three years, I've had a pretty profound faith reconversion.

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I grew up Catholic and kind of fell away from it. And then I really kind of got back into the faith.

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And that's just really helped me solidify my moral worldview and grounded my life and beliefs in God, which has really helped me simplify things.

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So having like a moral framework that I'm like rooted in has like helped me better assess, you know, problems or technologies as they arise.

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And it's like, OK, now I have a lens I can like view and assess these things through.

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Now we have our final what we call our arbitrary but insightful question, which is this as a general life principle.

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Is it better to ask why or why not?

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I love this question. I actually plugged it into tech GPT.

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it was like playing around back and forth with it, like quizzing myself. And I ended up on

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why not? Yeah, I'm a self-proclaimed, you know, techno optimist. I think humans are technological

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beings. And that's an inherent gift from God. And that we're called to boldly go out in the world

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and build. So as problems arise, you know, I think we can innovate through them. We have a long

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history of doing so. And so the why not to me seems like a little bit more optimistic. I'll take

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on the question. So Wyatt, we're here today to talk about your book, The Bitcoinization of Finance.

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This podcast, for people who've been listening for a while will know, it used to be called

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Business Bitcoinization. I actually dropped that because no one could seem to remember the name,

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even close friends that they'd be talking about who are Bitcoiners, right? So they're familiar

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with the idea of Bitcoinization. They kind of would forget the title of the podcast. So I changed

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it to the Bitcoin playbook. And here we are talking about the Bitcoinization of finance today.

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I want to hear a little bit about it, but I think there are a lot of Bitcoiners that are not very comfortable right now with the financialization of Bitcoin.

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Is the Bitcoinization of finance just a clever turn of phrase, or is there a difference between that and the financialization of Bitcoin?

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It's both, actually. So, you know, I'm certainly no fan of our lives being financialized.

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And I think that, you know, they certainly have. And I don't necessarily think that's a good thing.

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However, I kind of view the financialization of Bitcoin as applying traditional financial tools, products, and strategies to Bitcoin.

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That's things like the BitBond.

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However, the Bitcoinization of finance is a financial system where custody, settlement, and value are unified in one protocol.

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And so when doing so, we really kind of remove the paper layer in finance where a lot of the shenanigans happens.

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And so, you know, I think of Bitcoinization of anything, you know, it's like this black hole thesis that Bitcoin will suck it all up.

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And so I think that, you know, that's particularly going to happen in finance, too.

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You know, I kind of think that every industry is prone to fiatness or like fakeness.

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And finance was particularly susceptible because, you know, I kind of generally view it as like the business of money.

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And so when we apply Bitcoin to a financial system or try to rework a financial system around Bitcoin, I think it's mainly just like expanding capital markets, which is just a function of capitalism.

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Two parties can each take a side of a trade That trade can be multiplied for each market participant determining for themselves which side of the trade they want to be on And you know I certainly you know aware and sympathetic to a lot of cases of Bitcoiners being skeptical of finance I think that fair That being said it not something we should

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shun. We have a playbook that we can apply to Bitcoin that I think will ultimately lead to

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hyper-Bitcoinization because ultimately, if that's a case, which I'm sure we agree on,

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on, capital has to get into Bitcoin somehow, right? And so it's like, it's, well, it's really

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going to be finance. It's going to like build the tools, products, and strategies to do that.

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If you were hit by a bus right now, could your family access your Bitcoin? When's the right time

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to stop hot link and use Bitcoin to impact your family's lives, not just yours? What if Bitcoin

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doesn't reach the value you expect, or it takes longer to reach that value? Do you have a plan?

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Do you have the proper trust structure to avoid probate, maintain your privacy and minimize

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taxes? Do you want to avoid taxes to stack more sats or leverage your stack without selling?

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Should you add Bitcoin to your business's balance sheet? Are you truly confident in your self-custody

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setup? If any of those questions made you stop and think, you probably realize that simply buying

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and holding Bitcoin is not a complete financial plan. That's where strong wealth comes in.

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moves for your family no matter what happens. Schedule a free call at strongwealth.net.

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That's strongwealth.net. Strong Wealth. Wealth Management for Bitcoiners by Bitcoiners.

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So one of the things you have at the end of your book is kind of the potential of Bitcoin. And

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there are all sorts of very bullish takes, also very bearish takes about where Bitcoin could go

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in the future. At the end of the day, no one knows. But one of the things you cite is Jesse

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Myers, also known as Croesus, his once in a species blog. And he talks about how essentially

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Bitcoin will likely steal away from various other stores of value, at least a certain percentage of

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what other people saw, for instance, in real estate or wherever else. So he thinks that over

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time, the approximately $900 trillion in assets across the globe, the 225 of that will be in

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Bitcoin. So I guess part of the question is for Bitcoiners that don't like the idea of

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the financialization of Bitcoin, is there a way to get to that point, or maybe a $10 million

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Bitcoin without coming into the financialization of the asset?

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Yeah, definitely. No, it's a great question. I absolutely love this graph. I think Jesse's done

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phenomenal work. He really frames this piece. It's like Bitcoin is in competition with other

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store value assets. A lot of Bitcoiners are libertarian. They believe in free markets.

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I think that's all that this really is. We don't necessarily need to overthink it at its base case.

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To me, I've learned a lot from Lynn Alden. She talks about money being a technology. We've seen

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like the evolution of different monies and some of their technological, you know, advantages or

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drawbacks. And so if we believe Bitcoin is money, which I do, and it's like the next technical

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evolution of, you know, fiat money or paper money, which, you know, we resent and rightfully so,

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but, you know, at the time, you know, it allowed for simpler cross-border payments, you know,

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it was faster to move than, you know, commodity money like gold. So, you know, at its early

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beginning when it was like most true, like there was a more clear case for like the technological

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evolution of fiat money. So, you know, when we applied Bitcoin into the, or bring Bitcoin into

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the picture now, and we look at like the total store value assets that are available, you know,

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in the world, in that chart, you know, it's very simple. He just lays out like a couple different

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squares and like assigns, you know, market cap to each category. So, you know, I think of things

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like, you know, collectibles and art, you know, it's like, can Bitcoin compete with those things?

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Yes, certainly they can. Generally, if somebody's holding those, they're probably in an income bracket where they're more cushioned than the rest of us for different types of asset movements.

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But when you look at the bulk of it, it's real estate, equities, and some sort of fixed income or debt instrument.

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And so particularly in the US, I think this is pretty representative around the world, but real estate is generally the most scarce liquid asset that people can get their hands on to.

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That's why we see all this monetary premium on top of housing in particular in the US or even Canada.

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Vancouver is pretty famous now for Chinese investors trying to store their wealth in an asset outside of China.

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And that's easiest for them to do in real estate in another country.

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And so, you know, store of value asset, I think, you know, first and foremost, is just scarce.

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You know, that's hence like the store of value, you know, over time and space that the asset will generally appreciate.

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And so, you know, real estate kind of has like a place in the world.

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Obviously, there's a lot of utility value we get from real estate.

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And I certainly don't mind buildings going up in value, especially as their utility value or hyper-local property becomes more desired.

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So there's that.

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Then equities and fixed income, I certainly have more of a gripe with because fixed income is the largest market in the world.

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And debt certainly has its place in the world, too.

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I'm not as negative on debt as a lot of people.

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I think it's just a tool. But when we peel back the layers of the onion, it's important to identify

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what kind of debt are we working with. The majority of that debt is sovereign debt. And so

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if you were to try to store your wealth in sovereign debt at this day and age, you're just

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going to get paid back with printed money. So that's actually not a store of value. And I think

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Bitcoin in that case is going to eat a large chunk of those equity and fixed income or debt markets

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because they're not actually scarce. So I think you've already addressed this a little bit earlier,

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but Wall Street has no issue financializing Bitcoin, taking advantage of it, you know,

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creating products, etc, etc. Do you see the Bitcoinization of finance as a way to bring

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Bitcoin principles into Wall Street and into finance, and then maybe connected to that?

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What are the areas that you're most bullish on when it comes to the Bitcoinization of finance?

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Definitely, definitely.

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This is a fun one because you definitely can offend both the finance bros and the Bitcoiners.

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So I'm just trying to blaze my own path here right down the middle.

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But so I think, you know, first and foremost, like Bitcoin or excuse me, paper Bitcoin is a threat to Bitcoin.

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You know, it's not bad that necessarily exists, but Bitcoin super feature, in my opinion, is that anyone can take custody of it in 10 minutes, you know, around the world.

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And part of the problem we've seen with gold and, you know, people have been crying foul on like gold markets for decades now that they're manipulated.

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And this largely is like a finance game.

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So if you have a finite asset that scares like gold and it's physical, and then you put a unscarced paper product on top of it, it becomes like much easier to skew that market.

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How I think a Bitcoin or a financial system becomes Bitcoin eyes is really in the settlement layer.

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And so the fact that Bitcoin is a money and an asset in one protocol, and then it settles natively on the same protocol, there's really no excuse for Bitcoin not to settle at the end of the trade.

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So I have no problem with a futures contract.

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At the end of the day, that's just a business contract between two parties looking to hedge exposure.

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If we apply that to Bitcoin, great.

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Still a business contract of two parties trying to hedge exposure.

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This is just free market principles where I think we need to push the industry and encourage, you know, Bitcoin companies and companies partaking in these kind of financial activities is to settle that contract in Bitcoin.

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Right. There's no reason for for that contract to settle in cash.

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And that's where we can we can to distort markets.

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So I really do call and talk about this on the book to for people working in the Bitcoin industry or Bitcoin companies, you know, building solutions in the space is to embrace the I would call it like the ethos of Bitcoin.

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So it's like, are you doing things like the Bitcoin way?

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It's like in this instance, like, are you actually taking upon yourself to build into the business model settling in Bitcoin?

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Like there's some hashrate futures products out there right now that they may

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just made a business model decision that they'll settle in cash.

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Like there's nothing actually preventing them from settling in hashrate.

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They just made decisions like, well, as Bitcoiners,

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we should hold those companies accountable.

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And if they have competitors actually settle in hashrate or settle in Bitcoin,

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like we should use those companies Right And so you know Bitcoin is still I would say you know evolving industry And I think it very important at this point in time for Bitcoin to do like some some self

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You're right. We don't want to make, you know, big mistakes where, you know, consumers or people get hurt.

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Obviously, that is a function of markets and it's going to happen.

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But what we're really trying to avoid or should aim to avoid is like big blow ups.

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And, you know, I think we do that by, you know, encouraging business to be done a certain way.

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You know, I always direct my clients to River because they have proof of reserves.

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They use two or three cold storage, you know, multi-custody or multi-signature custody.

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And so it's like, are they doing it the right way?

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If we all hold ourselves accountable to doing it the right way, you know, we should mitigate, you know, a lot of those potential, you know, blowups or reason for, you know, regulation, you know, hammer to come down on the industry.

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So Saylor has been pretty vocal about his stance on proof of reserves.

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He thinks that I don't want to put words into his mouth.

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You can find exactly what he would say if you want to search YouTube or wherever else you're listening to this.

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But he would essentially say that it opens up strategy to unnecessary risk.

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do you think that all bitcoin treasury companies all companies in general should have proof of

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reserves how important is that you mentioned that just a second ago with river yeah i uh

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i do think it's very important i'm somewhat sympathetic to to what he's saying but at the

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end of the day you know specifically when we're talking about bitcoin you know treasury companies

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they are just treating you know this asset as a well they're just treating bitcoin as an asset on

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their balance sheet. So if that's the case, then yeah, like show me the address, like show me you

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have the Bitcoin you say you do. And, you know, to be fair, like public companies, you know, they do

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have different reporting requirements that, you know, they already have to go through. So a lot

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of that is kind of pseudo, you know, taken care of, I would rather be, you know, the Bitcoiner way,

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as opposed to like the SEC way, and just showing the address. And, you know, I think that's also,

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So specifically with the treasury companies, if there are ETFs or any financial company that is looking to compete within the Bitcoin ecosystem, I think that's a way you can really kind of get above the competition, especially if not a lot of players are doing it.

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But if you're a smaller business, I'm not necessarily saying it's pertinent to show your Bitcoin treasury.

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But if you are holding client funds or holding funds on behalf of investors, I think it is very important.

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And I think there's more than one way you can skin a cat here.

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But I think it's important we're always opting for the most true and honest manner.

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So let's say that proof of reserves aligns with the Bitcoin ethos you were talking about a second ago.

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What would be some of the other things that you would like to see companies interacting with Bitcoin developing as far as their processes, practices, standards?

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Totally. I think this is like really apparent for me in like the lending ecosystem right now.

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You know, a lot of clients ask me about this.

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Like I mentioned earlier, you know, I think that's a tool.

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And I think we're at an interesting point in time in the lifespan of Bitcoin where we can use Bitcoin as collateral to kind of satisfy some dollar denominated liabilities.

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I don't think it will always work that way.

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Once Bitcoin becomes a unit account, that's essentially kind of a mute point.

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Loans and debt will still exist.

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It's just like the structure will be a little different.

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And so when I'm evaluating a potential lending partner that I would recommend or guide a client to, I do some pretty thorough due diligence.

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And a lot of these are just kind of more fun, like Bitcoin maxi points I have.

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If I go to your website and I see a bar chart, you're instantly axed.

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I don't want to see any sort of red or green candles flashing in my face trying to encourage some sort of trading activity.

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I think that's wrong. And a lot of those companies I don't think are moral actors.

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You see a lot of this in the crypto space. And I really advise we stay away from those practices.

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I think it's very fiat and high time preference behavior.

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If there's any sort of sidechain, staking, token, automatically axed, we're Bitcoiners, we're looking to interact with the bear asset.

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I don't want some wrapped Bitcoin product or staked on something not on the Bitcoin protocol,

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because we just introduced so many different layers of risk that, for one, aren't necessary.

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And at that point, I'm just skeptical of who's trying to make a buck.

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And then when you ultimately get into the terms of the deal, so you found a reputable company,

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when you're getting the nuts and bolts

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or it's like a focus predominantly

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on the custody solution.

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I'm a collaborative two or three multi-sig advocate.

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That's always what I'm looking for first and foremost.

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I think that's kind of the gold standard.

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I think Unchain has absolutely nailed this.

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If somebody cuts these,

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it's a fully custody solution with somebody like BitGo,

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I would prefer it's collaborative multi-sig,

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but I'm not gonna necessarily not do business with them.

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I think, you know, Bitco is a reputable company and, you know, confident in their custody solutions.

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But that would probably, you know, kind of be like a yellow flag.

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But then, you know, we look very carefully at like LTV margins.

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You know, so if like somebody is, you know, advertising like up to 80 percent LTV, I probably won't do business with them or that's falling into like yellow or red flag territory there because they're trying to simulate or encourage riskier behavior like off the bat.

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It's like we haven't even done a loan agreement. Your calculator just starts at 80% LTV. So it's like, okay, well, now we're automatically starting in a riskier situation. How the loans are paid back, how the LTV is charged, it's really kind of gets in the fine print.

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And it's like some of the slimier companies will do like daily, you know, APY.

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And so it's like, well, at the end of the term, you know, it might actually be a much larger interest cost that you're on the hook for.

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So really kind of dig into that.

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And then I would say kind of lastly is like the repayment term.

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So it's like, you know, are they going to be, you know, communicated partners?

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Are they going to give you notice on like, you know, if you're getting close to like your margin call to be, are they going to notify you?

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Are they going to immediately liquidate your Bitcoin if you don't top it off?

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And so it's really kind of taking all those into account.

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If I could kind of recap that, it's like, are they following the Bitcoin ethos, using

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tools and technologies already enabled innately on the Bitcoin protocol?

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And then kind of on the business side, like, do I get a sense of, are they ethical actors

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and doing things the right way, like not trying to hide daily interest rates and like the

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fine print?

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So I think you're familiar with recent conversations on the show about Bitcoin treasury companies. Are you of the opinion that most of the moves, most of the announcements in recent days with treasury companies, those are companies that are acting in good faith? And maybe, you know, it's hard to answer. Maybe I'm not gonna have you answer for specific ones. But just do you get the sense that things are heading in a good direction in that regard? Or do you, are you of the opinion that this is kind of a good way to do that?

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kind of maybe setting up a precedent that could lead to the next bear market?

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Yeah, man, I go really back and forth on this.

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And I think if I land it, I'm probably maybe like 60% bearish, 40% bullish on just this idea in general.

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So I'm very bullish on, like I mentioned, deeper capital markets within Bitcoin.

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I think public companies are certainly a tool for that.

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We talked about futures, options.

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Those are all tools for that.

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ETFs are a tool for that.

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When I look at the other tools like futures and ETFs like BlackRock earlier this year certainly no fan of them but to their credit did file for in redemption of their ETF And so it like that really what I looking for is like in settlement or financial

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contracts and products like settling or being denominated in Bitcoin. I think that's what we

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got to strive for. And that's like the gold standard. Treasury companies don't have that

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option, right? And so we're generally just dealing with common shares more often than not.

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If they're a very sophisticated treasury company, like MicroStrategy, I think they're

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in a league of their own, partly because of their genius, partly because, you know, first movers,

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you know, where they have a very well thought out and financially engineered, you know, balance

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sheet, they have multiple levers they can pull in a litany of scenarios, whether it's a common stock,

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you know, they have three levels of preferred shares. Now they have the convertible debt. And so

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we just kind of put them off to the side as kind of an outlier. You're really just dealing with

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with common shares, like more often than not, even, you know, convertible debts, like very

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popular. And then you really kind of got to get in the terms of that convertible debt.

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But when I think of these things, you know, these Bitcoin, you know, treasury companies at large,

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like I'm mostly concerned about, you know, Bitcoiners not fully understanding, like they're

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wading into traditional capital markets. You know, it obviously is kind of, it is kind of obvious,

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like you're buying common shares, but I'm not sure they understand like everything that comes

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with playing in a different realm. Like this isn't Bitcoin anymore. Like you're buying a

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publicly traded company that just happens to have Bitcoin on their balance sheet. So there's all

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sorts of different shenanigans that can be had in traditional financial markets.

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I don't think that the 25th treasury company is going to necessarily have good debt terms. And I

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think some of these will blow up and then there will be like domino effects from there. So we've

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see time and time again in traditional capital markets where a sub-market gets hyper-focused

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on a particular metric that generally doesn't end well. It leads to bubble behavior or some

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sort of craze. Community-adjusted EBITDA comes to mind when WeWork was hot a while back.

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And so I don't like to see stuff like that. And I am seeing it with the Bitcoin treasury markets.

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and maybe this is a two principles of a stance and not necessarily fair but this is really you

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know I don't like fault them like it's fair game for them to apply the strategy but it really is

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just like finance and accounting tricks and you know to me this just a lot of times feels like a

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LBO playbook you know like leverage buyouts it's like you know toys r us you can google this like

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famous example, like private equity firm buys company, takes a private, leverages up with debt.

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And then, you know, they just optimize for like one metric or, you know, they're just playing

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finance and accounting tricks. And I'm really kind of getting that same sort of vibe. But,

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you know, I like business. I like capitalism. I think companies are supposed to provide value.

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So if you have a company that just takes over, you know, another company, not throwing

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shade at any one of them but it's like what does this company actually do it's like oh don't worry

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about it's like this health you know medical device company it's like okay so are they are

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they going to actually make any cash flow off that business are they going to leave like their

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customers existing customers in the dust and not service them like they initially set out to do

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you know when that company was was founded and and went public are they not just trying to

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acquire Bitcoin. And that just seems like, you know, mission drift to me. And I think that's,

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you know, likely to cause some harm. So I don't know, I that's where it kind of where my head's

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at, you know, when I see these things or it's like, I don't hate it. And because I think,

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you know, this is important for Bitcoin getting more ingrained in traditional capital markets.

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But at the same time, it's like, it does feel like we're kind of missing the forest from the trees.

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If you had to make a prediction right now, would you say that the financialization of Bitcoin in this cycle will likely lead to higher highs where we no longer have the four year cycle?

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Or will it be something that in the end maybe hurts more than it helps?

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That's a great question. I'll make a bold prediction here.

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It's like I actually kind of leaning towards like the end of cycles and for a couple of reasons.

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And so it's important, you know, understand it's like Bitcoin is like a unique asset for like many reasons, a lot of what we just talked about.

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So it's like I do think there are certain, you know, valuation metrics or even like adoption metrics from previous technologies or financial products like we can apply to Bitcoin to get a sense of what it is and where it's going.

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But we do need to treat it as something special where I really see kind of like the end of cycles.

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And, you know, there'll still be ups and downs. I'm not saying it's like up forever. But when Bitcoin was just Bitcoin, you know, it was doing its own thing, having cycles like it was very, you know, very methodical in how it operated because it was a new technology.

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Now, as Bitcoin becomes more ingrained in traditional capital markets, one of the things

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I do think treasury companies are good at, and this is actually kind of like with gold

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too, where it's like gold actually does very well with like small transactions.

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It actually kind of fails or is weaker with like large transactions and settlements.

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I kind of see that with treasury companies too, where it's like, I don't necessarily

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think a lot of these are fit or worth the attention of like retail investors, but they

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are opportunities for large pools of capital that may not be able to invest directly into

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spot Bitcoin or an ETF to get Bitcoin exposure, which I'm certainly a fan of.

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So just going back to Jesse's chart, if Bitcoin is competing with other store value assets

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and we're already starting to see some of those store value assets bleeding market share

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to Bitcoin, and as we get more financial products that allow pools of capital to flow into Bitcoin,

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And, you know, I think that's almost like a water spout, like you can't turn off or it's like you might be able to slow the flow, you know, if one thing or the other happens.

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But it will ultimately be changed, I think, more or less forever going forward.

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So if we are out of the four year cycle, then this this question right here, there's a lot of, you know, it's very open to interpretation.

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But let me ask you this. How high do you think Bitcoin will go before its next 50% or more drawback?

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Oh, man. Yeah, I really try not to do like the price prediction game.

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But, you know, I think it's kind of funny.

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You know, this is I think this is just like human like lizard brain things like we're just set on like round numbers.

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There's this great gentleman, I'm forgetting his name, but he presented that.

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Texas Energy Mining Summit, I believe it's like his projects like UTXO Oracle. And, you know,

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he just showed some data about like, you know, consolidations and stuff at like $100, $1,000. So

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I imagine, you know, we could get to a round number like 250,000 or so. Not financial advice,

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but you know, also to, you know, as Bitcoin becomes more ingrained in capital markets,

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something, you know, we need to identify and understand like finance. And that's, you know,

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what I'm really trying to do with the book, because like, yeah, traders are people too,

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or, you know, people hedging their opportunities, like they're more than less going to do that at

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something like $150,000. Like, okay, I've made X amount of profit, I'm going to take some off the

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table. You know, this is, you know, my my sell limits at. And so I think, you know, we should

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probably look out for some sort of higher round number, I'd be certainly welcome it. But I've

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heard, you know, some pretty credible people that I believe like 250 sounds like appropriate,

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you know, the cycle, who knows? So, Wyatt, we to say we've scratched the surface is a massive

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overstatement when it comes to your book. So I highly recommend people check it out and you can

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download it for free. But maybe if you would share with people where they can go to find

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the Bitcoinization of finance and keep up with you and your work. Absolutely. So you can find the

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Bitcoinization of finance on brains.com under their book section. You can find me online on

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Twitter at Wyatt O'Rourke underscore. You can find out more about my firm, Basilic,

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kind of brand myself as a Bitcoin financial advisor. We help people with sound money

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strategies, integrating Bitcoin into a financial plan. One of the things we're really focused on

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is we're the first generation of Bitcoiners, whether we like it or not. So there's a lot

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of responsibility that falls on our shoulders. Make sure we're good stewards of the asset.

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and you can find more information there at basilic.io

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or some of my personal writings at wyattorark.com.

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Excellent. Well, Wyatt, thank you so much for your time today.

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It's been a pleasure.

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Josh, thanks for having me.

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Well, friends, this is a wrap.

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Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Bitcoin Playbook.

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If you want to reach out to either me or Wyatt,

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you can find those links down in the show notes.

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And be sure to pick up your free copy of the Bitcoinization of Finance.

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As always, keep building, keep growing.

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Until next time, keep living and leading well.

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you