I view Deep Seek as allies.
I see them as on team Open.
Some of the best funded
lobbying for regulatory capture.
There's a bunch of that during
The tail end of the Biden
that like they were going to
anthropic, essentially, that's
To build this kind of de facto
been blown wide open by
But you still have what, day
Sam Altman, closed AI guy up
for OpenAI only.
What?
Welcome to the Business
The show dedicated to helping
business with bitcoin, the
I'm your host, Josh Friedeman,
David, who is the founder of
Today on the show, we're
and why Christopher believes
of AI.
We're going to get into our
after this.
Christopher, welcome to the podcast.
Hey, Josh, thanks for having me.
So I like to start off every
that help us to get to know
us some insight for our own lives.
So you ready for these?
Yeah.
Question number one is this.
When and how did you first
This was 2011.
No, I don't have a massive
my like political Ron Paul
in the context of, and the Fed
stuff like, hey, check out bitcoin.
And that was after bitcoin had
And I was like, I was relating
invest.
And I was like, do you think
He's like, eventually.
So I bought a bunch at 30.
It crashed down to like 2.
I'm like, ah, screw this.
And then, you know, a couple
above 200 sold.
It made a 5X.
Felt cool.
But, you know, started doing
of like this potential
on develop, realizing it could
applications, which I'm sure
So follow up question there.
It sounds like you came into
side, but from, from that
Than from the technology side.
Is that right?
Yeah, that's cool.
But it seems like you figured
side as well.
Yeah, I'm a developer and so
applications.
My kind of journey, starting
what I now call shitcoins.
Forgive my French, but you
because apparently they would
applications.
It turns out that they've only
people from their money, but
realizing that this is where
activity is, is migrating to.
Question number two.
Is this what's an insight or
understood?
Probably increasingly
to be a lot of talk about
Is there really is and needs
like the first invention of
can never be reproduced and
to do all sorts of other
of like a technology.
And there's going to be lots
gets a debate at what the US
of building reserves and
And my kind of observation I
so called toxic Bitcoin
as I limit my toxicity to Twitter.
I'm otherwise kind of, kind of nice.
But that sort of like strict
important defense mechanism
or polluted by very well
opt or hijack or distract or
Fortunately, I think all of
will continue to go to zero
But there's going to be a lot
as everyone kind of is
government as legitimacy.
So we'll see what happens.
But you don't have to care
or digital assets.
It's okay to be Bitcoin only.
Good to hear.
So question number three.
What's the bitcoin resource
I think the body of work from
probably what everyone
standard.
Um, it's okay to not get
It's very like kind of
but as like a philosophical
of parallel book fiat standard
it the evils of the fiat
These really are the stakes.
And my favorite quote from
earlier point is that, you
were not on the same team.
Bitcoiners are trying to end
money printing.
The other people are basically
they benefit.
So the big innovation of
alternative financial and
system, and then on top of
of beneficial things for humanity.
Question number four.
Beyond Bitcoin, what is a
helpful to you or your work recently?
I say an idea and that is kind
It's both open source as well
And this is adding real value
an open source company, a
on open source.
It lends itself to interoperability.
So there are other companies
of building at the
And because we're building on
protocol, which is Bitcoin,
above that called lightning.
We're more or less also using
that works well adjacent to
like decentralized data, being
that are more specific to our
for agents on top of that substrate.
Everyone kind of wants to
So we're not competing.
There are other companies that
and that we are allies.
So it's a value add.
And if you look outside the
at Silicon Valley where
Everyone just wants to chase
of a zero sum game in a lot of
space where everyone's kind of
own roll up.
There's all these kind of like
have incentive to cooperate,
their token or whatever it is
It does not lend itself to
And I think over the next year
see that interoperability
competitive advantage for businesses.
I can see how that's starting
I think particularly once we
through and we're able to kind
with other businesses.
There's a lot of kind of win,
be done.
I think it's going to be a
the people that are building
Yeah.
I want to follow up with you
about that because I'd be
those trends that you're seeing.
But for right now, let's get
We call it our arbitrary but
As a general life principle,
I love both of those.
And if I had to pick, I would
Because why gets to first principles.
And I think that that has to
Like why do I need your
Why do I need your crypto coin?
Why do I need dot?
Like why?
You follow the whys and you
beautiful place called.
I actually don't need all of
Everybody else.
Let me start from the, the,
and then the why not would
oh my man, like I'm going to
or people who don't want me to
And then if there's a wall
like, that's like a kind of a
But why?
Why comes first?
Well, Christopher, we're here
Agents, as well as getting
it comes to Bitcoin and AI,
Those are definitely two of
of development.
And you find yourself there in
Can you share with us a little
Sure.
So I call Open Agents an
and products for the agentic
And the sort of impetus for
the Dev day presentation in
Altman unveiled their kind of
around agents.
I came to agree that agents
sort of economic unit of the
economy.
And I just didn't like their approach.
They mentioned also they were
of like store for people to
of agents and earn revenue
And that's where I knew like
not going to do that properly.
They're just structurally not
to build on Bitcoin and be
like decentralized
participant.
And this had been my background.
My previous startup was a gig
and kind of delivery networks
I was like, here is where the
could be a big advantage and
that focuses just on this.
So I had a existing company at
to focus on agents.
We renamed the company to Open Agents.
And the day after that I
150 plus video series of me
over time, over the last year,
that we've put out, things
But Open Agents is really like
this idea of like a research
AI economy, but like being
that we're open and taking
strategic advantages that that allows.
Could you talk a little bit
the agentic economy, what that
Well, the bet is that there
of agents everywhere
I mean, and to kind of drive
look at the humanoid robotics
and Optimus is.
He's trying to manufacture a
in the next decade.
So just, let's just say that
at some point in the next 10
Before that point, the
but for software.
What we call AI agents are
Like that's the first thing
to grapple with.
Agents are everywhere by
person, family, business,
device, business, everything
processes running as part of it.
And let's like pause to define agent.
Plenty of people have their
of like something that no one
I like to keep things simple
process that does what you ask
There's a lot of people that
we're building AGI or building
And there's a lot of kind of,
it that I'm trying to steer
This is something that
If the kinds of things that
particularly in your business
and you can have 10 different
monitoring your email, whatever.
Like it's about fundamentally
that.
But if we think about what is
fundamentally that this has to
of openness.
If you have multiple billions
of them are controlled by
with connections to
a whole bunch of people or you
that are excited about
and people are going to be on
Like there's a lot of like
of the technology.
And I think that if the sort
okay with it being controlled
you're going to get a lot of that.
But if the ethos shifts,
open, things are expected to
I think a lot of that bad
off or get away with.
So we're trying to build the
for that economy on a neutral
And does decentralized mean
Not necessarily.
What does that look like?
It seems like that would be
But what are your thoughts there?
I don't know how practical
Part of the beauty of a system
a parallel is it allows for a
So if you are that hobbyist or
on your home machine.
I've got my Linux computer
it apart, you know, modify it
you know, guarantees about
kind of like black box
But you can also build on top
That's a more curated consumer experience.
But Linux is the, you know,
all these kinds of things.
And so if we look at that kind
and Linux, I think you're
space where, you know,
they're still the Windows
You know, they own 49% of
closed AI, GitHub and
their empire in their
You've got a lot of, on the
and people, you know, taking
wherever and running with them.
That's cool.
But we do think there should
of equivalent of macOS that is
can then still smooth down
scare off consumers.
And in the space of AI agents,
that's where we're trying to
So as far as your current and
what do those look like?
What can people be expecting
Yeah, in the short term we're
case that we've identified
thousands of dollars per month
Kind of a drop in remote
This we think is going to help
where just imagine that we
at a lot of things, but it's
of data source or whatever
developer who has some unique
be able to create a plugin
get a little share of that revenue.
I think once we get that
that's going to let us broaden
And we want to get to the
this end up will being a be a
to be able to have their own
way to Command agents, which
app.
Plenty of people think that,
some other device or they're not.
We, we are strong believers in
everyone is already paying for
literally all of the
I guess you could say in some
with Apple on that.
I think that I have their
have been like very underwhelming.
I don't think they have the
We'll see if that changes.
But you know, I fundamentally,
install our mobile app.
We have an app in development
In open beta, it's still kind
That's the kind of tools that
But over the next few months
open ended and generic.
So to sum up, we're doing two interfaces.
We're doing a web application
you want to, you know, click
it work and the kind of data
or you can click to download
We're envisioning that as like
from Tony Stark.
You just got your thing that
it does stuff for you, that
Is it could be a coding agent.
It could be literally anything
marketplace that we're
where you don't have to care
stuff that's happening in the background.
You're just able to ask it to
And it does.
If you ask it to do something
going to open up a little job
10 people requested this
We will pay half a bitcoin for
Or maybe way less than half a bitcoin.
But you know, this, this will
user demands.
But I think that's one thing
have is that marketplace.
I don't see anyone really
effect.
What is going to set companies apart.
Obviously there's a race to
the base level of models.
There's what seems to be an
battle is going to be more at
And the sort of excitement
to be around this concept of
Companies that specialize in
get very good at kind of
AI agents.
That's kind of like the, the,
in Silicon Valley and such.
I take a different view on that.
That type of company.
Vertical agents reminds me of
people took the idea of Uber
different things and five, ten
to come up with like a real
type companies.
Maybe there's a couple.
Uber is still there.
So it's like in the realm of
daddy market hegemon going to be?
I think open agents has a
it's ideally it should be both
And how we get away with that
case coding.
Agents is what we're focused
both for, you know, our team
that we're starting to work with.
And enterprises are going to
engineer.
But like I said, to be able to
marketplace where we're able
and service providers to help
of the open agents platform
distribution because we have a
with businesses.
We get paid by the business.
We pay out, you know, cuts to
So in that respect we want to
I think that's how we, we
And then that network effect
we're building the best agents.
Where are people going to go
They're going to come to open
it's open agents.
Of course you want open agents.
You don't want agents that
No, you want open agents.
Right.
So then when it comes to Onyx,
I'm guessing that's primarily
Just, you know, the average
What does that cost.
We hope for Onyx to be free,
Certainly there will be a base
And you know, you can start to
been changing where now like
mini for free.
Deep Seek has been offering
services are getting slammed.
So they got, there's got to be
But I think, you know, a year
will be really going viral
that the models could be just
away really powerful
running some devices on, on
Like we shipped a couple kind
3.21b or 3d model running on
Like we don't need to charge
It's using your own battery power.
You know, there will be other
like if someone wants to pay
So we'll experiment but you
of open agents enterprise
comes from.
And then we're just able to
lead gen and other kinds of opportunities.
Yeah.
So while people are waiting
today for an AI agent?
You know what the average
that they use?
The average person?
I mean, I would say like using
talks about like chat GPT
point where you're like, I
it can't.
That's where you want to start
And, and for most people maybe
your needs and you're fine
I would say that if you're a
developers or you're just
efficiency in your development
that's where you should reach
we are working with people and
way more bang for the buck
kind of most people.
Yeah, I'd say use what's out there.
If you have, I don't know,
identify, please tweet them at us.
At Open Agents, you know,
those things that OpenAI and
It's, it's a moving target.
But the hope is that by, you
infrastructure in place such
like I'm asking my Onyx to do
right away, it gets turned
you know, builds and it's,
evolving product I think, I
So for devs, when it comes to
compare your current product
Well, OpenAI on their like $20
losing money on that.
So I think there's a level of,
just able to do because
of money that we can't, we
Sure.
I have been happy for my day
to $100 per day sometimes
of thousands of dollars that I
So I do think the kind of per
sense where we can take,
Deep Seq, which is like
for, for percent of the
that a bunch of the developers
happy to, you know, buy $20 or
And I'm, I'm confident,
come down, if you're able to
able to spend $5 of compute to
pull requests done and that
Developers who like know how
see the value in that very,
Yeah.
So you mentioned Deep Seek.
What are your initial thoughts?
It's been out for a few days.
Is it kind of a sea change or
What are initial thoughts?
It may be overhyped and a lot
it's revolutionary and I'm
where I'm spending X amount on Claude.
I, I have our Claude has been
have used for the last six months.
We've been for the last 18
OpenAI Claude 3 came out GPT
been the best for the last six
coding agents, but it can be expensive.
And so here comes a model that
And even though in some cases
model generally, and this is
we're stripping Sonnet out of
it with more of a kind of a
just one call to Sonnet, we'll
and kind of more smartly build
So at least in our initial
way smarter result.
In the end, it's smarter and cheaper.
Takes a little bit more work
So from my perspective, just
something finally I can rip
In addition to the platform
by anthropic or their APIs are
I can use Deep Seats API.
I can use, it's hosted a bunch
I learned just in the last day
The full version of R1, not
the full version of R1 to
Or you can build a rig to run
I was like, all right, maybe
bit because I want to run one
me.
How cool would that be?
And then maybe we'll connect
But like it's, it's remarkable
of things.
But it's finally, we finally
of us inside of the sort of
been hoping for, for a long
least at par with the leading
that is open that we can run
And the fact that they've
because you can just think
are able to fine tune that in
of it, that it just unlocks
not possible with the closed
because it is so transparent
I mean this has been a major
developers have complained about.
OpenAI, which is they're
For 01 or 01 Pro.
And you're paying for this
do all this thinking.
And sometimes you'll sit there
minutes while it's thinking.
It doesn't really tell you
You get little like very bare
But with Deep Seek, you get
of its thought process, you
Now OpenAI has their kind of
hiding that because they know
it makes it that much easier
can do better than, than what
But that's a major, I think
if they're trying to build
as it's going to be.
You're, you're basically in
the model, the provider of the
to, you know, I'm hiring these
building agentic processes
large parts of my business.
And you're not even going to
I can't reproduce any of this.
I can't see what happens when
And then all this additional
you're not going to share that
I know, but over here I can
quality.
I think they're in a tough spot.
I wouldn't want to be them.
It's a good time to be
no longer running to catch up.
We may, we may, you know,
In some things we are power,
Because there's a whole slew
open AI.
They can't use their API
leave their premises.
And so maybe you've got some
of custom.
There's companies, one or two
send people on site to help
But just that ability to know
inspect it, modify it.
Yeah, we need that, we need
the closed source, you know,
And then we just want to build
That's the, the apple of that.
Yeah.
So Some people have tried to
It sounds like it's a win of
Is that the better way of
Yes, I do think so.
And you know, certainly
I'll actually just read my
I tweeted at David Sacks, the
He was talking about Deep Seek
US, China, etc.
And my response was, hopefully
attempts at regulatory capture
both dimensions, us versus
I'm seeing way too many calls
It's the wrong approach and
AI, or else there's some kind
players that are behind might
get a strategic edge and
And people have speculated
because they've been behind
actually on the side of open source.
You're right to be skeptical
In the case of Wen Fang Lang,
but the CEO of Deep Seek, you
someone did a profile on him.
He's just some nerd who
source.
And like he's building an open
in China.
So I view Deep Seek as allies.
I see them as on Team Open.
And I hope that lessons that
take from this is not that we
to strike more of these kind
with companies.
Like, I mean, you've already
in the space are actively
There's a bunch of that during
The tail end of the Biden
that like they were going to
Anthropic.
Essentially, that's it to.
To build this kind of de facto
been blown wide open by
But you still have what, day
Sam Altman closed AI guy up
for open air only.
What?
I guess it's all private
Even though there's some
there.
Elon has poured cold water on
have the money.
So how much of that was just
We don't know yet.
They do have a, or Oracle I
in Abilene that's been
So that's sort of like phase
But you know, clarity has come
building this for open AI.
So this is not like a neutral,
This is like this is an open
And if OpenAI has the issues
you know, skepticism given.
Altman also has been issuing
like harvest people's
There's some concerns about
the future of this, of this technology.
Altman would probably love to,
the AI utopia slash dystopia,
be the, the structure at all.
It should be more
open.
I hope that America can lead
is really in line with the
It's just whether some kind of
incentive to have the US
which unfortunately happens a
Yeah, it seems like Stargate
Seek or at least the main
I still think it's important
but if it's all going, or if
now I feel like Open AI is
Well, I think so too.
And it's, it's, you know, if
incentive for the kind of
to keep going up and.
Oh yeah, like you know, that
all this money on the latest
amount of returns, maybe
some, some insights of
coming up with you know, an
efficiency and like starts
I, I just see all of that as a
There's definitely too much
returning to reality.
Particularly recognitions that
important thing to embrace actively.
I think that's all bullish.
Now I know with the app
of its answers.
Is there that type of action
version, or is that something
the app?
Only anyone who has an app in
is going to have things like
to the existing government.
ChatGPT has the equivalent.
Every app in the App Store has
There's content moderation
You don't have to use the app.
You can take the underlying model.
And companies like Perplexity
only deploy the underlying
have the aggressive content
things it was trained on and
or overridden.
And I saw something like
where they actually, like they
remove some of that.
They did something where if
about Tiananmen or any of
gives you straight answers.
Now, does it give you straight
stuff that they might want you
Like they're a US like every
going to have some level of that.
And then the question is, do
model weight so you can put it
where people around the globe
new technology innovation
I think that's beneficial.
I don't think it's beneficial
dominant edge over everything else.
You know, hopefully everyone
more or less, and they're just
I don't know, maybe.
Maybe we need like a.
An AI version of Mutually
Like, everyone's got the
Everyone, Everyone, including
because we've all got really
each other.
I don't know.
Yeah, yeah.
So I want to turn to
a little bit more before we
Just first of all, speak to,
this.
Is it primarily because it's
additional benefits to Bitcoin
ways that you've seen that
open agents and other companies?
Yeah, it's A step one is
value.
What are they going to be
Are they going to have their
Maybe.
I'm sure there's a company or
own bank accounts.
That sounds horrible to me.
These are Internet native
They should have Internet
We have that with Bitcoin.
Are agents going to be
Chuck E.
Cheese token of the day?
Probably not.
Even though there's a whole
hard on that, I just
I think agents like people
paid in the hardest asset, the
Cheese token or a devaluing
And regardless of whether
or Bitcoin the Rails where you
and Light Spark building sort
Lightning network as transport.
So there I, you can envision
Bitcoin based assets like
by agents.
And this is something that I,
of full range of Bitcoin based
easily traded by agents.
But it's got to be that.
It's got to use the Lightning
are instant and Internet
open to all people.
Like that's going to bring the
zero.
And so I think fundamentally
be a large driver.
I think of Bitcoin adoption.
If you want to participate
or in the agent economy, like
want your Bitcoin wallet,
but we're going to charge you
freer.
And so that that
consensus that Bitcoin is the
any company that's building
default interoperable.
Like I can buy stuff from them
And then the other piece is
They're starting to be open
like Anthropic, you know, hats
positive thing.
For open protocols, they
Context Protocol that people
agents with a way to consume services.
You know, a good start.
But fundamentally I think if
same language such that
kind of global liquidity pool
can draw on.
And okay, this data source
or this service will cost me a
But there's no reason why
decentralized registries of
things.
And I'd say that's the, the
that's happened so far between
building on Bitcoin and AI are
Bitcoin and AI, which is okay,
there should be this shared registry.
You know, we've got some
L402 piece that connects all
Some people are building more
the APIs.
I'm writing some like Noster specifications.
I can kind of tie all this
for the, for the data communication.
And it's just everyone's kind
all have incentive to kind of
have 2, 3, 4, 5 of the leading
language, participating in a
of startups is going to want
So we're going to be building
Is that going to happen from
their own incentive and no
Probably not.
Is it going to happen from
own token and no incentive to cooperate?
Probably not.
I think you're going to see
you know, ecosystem evolve
12 months.
Particularly as, and this is
is like what is the revenue source?
What is the thing that people
we get real commerce happening.
That is our initial focus on
just a problem that I
for 30 years and the bulk of
software development.
And that's what I've been Kind
18 months is how can we build
productivity but maximize like
And going from 0 to 1 from
product that I can test in the marketplace.
You know, to be able to bring
absolute maximum is going to
anyone building, building in
So once we have the kind of
with, early customers that we
us, you know, a few hundred
per month to kind of get a
that with these coding agents,
into more of a marketplace.
Down the road, we do hope to
stop shop for AI agents where
of the like underlying stuff,
It's just a place you go.
You can slap down the credit
our sales team, whatever that
and just have all of the best
For most people, you know,
want to have 8 billion people
where they just open it up,
like literally magic happens
the background.
Very cool.
Well, any final thoughts you
finish up today, as well as
to give open agents a try or
I'd say, please.
We're very active on x.
Follow us OpenAgents Inc.
Is the Twitter.
You can go to OpenAgents.com
we're building as well as
of our mobile app called Onyx.
And then in the next week or
the new version of our kind of
to be able to interact with
If you are a business owner
agents into your business,
personally.
You can contact us through the
Great.
Christopher, thank you so much
It's been a pleasure, Josh,
Well friends, it's a wrap.
Thanks so much for listening
show.
If you want to reach out to
You can find those links down
Coding agents sounds
as well.
As always, keep building, keep
living and leading.
Well.
Thanks to those who have been
recent days, the boost of the
a comment about last week's
Roger Mochegemba.
He said great conversation to
Bitcoin into healthcare.
Loved hearing my client Dr.
Roger explain the synergy
and bitcoin.
He was early to telemedicine,
If you're around San Antonio
Shout out for making it easy
Bitcoin and the Lightning network.
I appreciate the SATs, John,
do as well.
And if you also would like to
on Fountain and either stream
And if you send a boost with a
the show.