1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:02,072 I view Deep Seek as allies. 2 00:00:02,136 --> 00:00:03,864 I see them as on team Open. 3 00:00:03,952 --> 00:00:07,064 Some of the best funded 4 00:00:07,112 --> 00:00:10,540 lobbying for regulatory capture. 5 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:13,368 There's a bunch of that during 6 00:00:13,544 --> 00:00:16,200 The tail end of the Biden 7 00:00:16,240 --> 00:00:19,032 that like they were going to 8 00:00:19,056 --> 00:00:22,248 anthropic, essentially, that's 9 00:00:22,304 --> 00:00:25,688 To build this kind of de facto 10 00:00:25,704 --> 00:00:28,104 been blown wide open by 11 00:00:28,192 --> 00:00:31,588 But you still have what, day 12 00:00:31,684 --> 00:00:36,116 Sam Altman, closed AI guy up 13 00:00:36,308 --> 00:00:38,400 for OpenAI only. 14 00:00:39,180 --> 00:00:39,920 What? 15 00:00:44,460 --> 00:00:47,652 Welcome to the Business 16 00:00:47,676 --> 00:00:51,332 The show dedicated to helping 17 00:00:51,356 --> 00:00:55,144 business with bitcoin, the 18 00:00:55,252 --> 00:00:58,064 I'm your host, Josh Friedeman, 19 00:00:58,112 --> 00:01:00,992 David, who is the founder of 20 00:01:01,136 --> 00:01:04,256 Today on the show, we're 21 00:01:04,368 --> 00:01:07,776 and why Christopher believes 22 00:01:07,848 --> 00:01:08,512 of AI. 23 00:01:08,576 --> 00:01:10,912 We're going to get into our 24 00:01:10,936 --> 00:01:11,900 after this. 25 00:01:29,003 --> 00:01:31,251 Christopher, welcome to the podcast. 26 00:01:31,427 --> 00:01:33,011 Hey, Josh, thanks for having me. 27 00:01:33,147 --> 00:01:35,411 So I like to start off every 28 00:01:35,427 --> 00:01:38,115 that help us to get to know 29 00:01:38,139 --> 00:01:39,363 us some insight for our own lives. 30 00:01:39,403 --> 00:01:40,395 So you ready for these? 31 00:01:40,539 --> 00:01:41,419 Yeah. 32 00:01:41,611 --> 00:01:42,923 Question number one is this. 33 00:01:42,963 --> 00:01:45,263 When and how did you first 34 00:01:46,243 --> 00:01:48,379 This was 2011. 35 00:01:48,531 --> 00:01:52,635 No, I don't have a massive 36 00:01:52,659 --> 00:01:56,667 my like political Ron Paul 37 00:01:56,675 --> 00:02:01,435 in the context of, and the Fed 38 00:02:01,459 --> 00:02:03,263 stuff like, hey, check out bitcoin. 39 00:02:03,683 --> 00:02:09,173 And that was after bitcoin had 40 00:02:09,213 --> 00:02:11,925 And I was like, I was relating 41 00:02:11,949 --> 00:02:12,181 invest. 42 00:02:12,237 --> 00:02:14,273 And I was like, do you think 43 00:02:14,653 --> 00:02:16,325 He's like, eventually. 44 00:02:16,389 --> 00:02:17,733 So I bought a bunch at 30. 45 00:02:17,853 --> 00:02:19,093 It crashed down to like 2. 46 00:02:19,133 --> 00:02:20,213 I'm like, ah, screw this. 47 00:02:20,253 --> 00:02:23,141 And then, you know, a couple 48 00:02:23,157 --> 00:02:24,629 above 200 sold. 49 00:02:24,661 --> 00:02:25,941 It made a 5X. 50 00:02:25,997 --> 00:02:26,709 Felt cool. 51 00:02:26,821 --> 00:02:29,205 But, you know, started doing 52 00:02:29,229 --> 00:02:32,885 of like this potential 53 00:02:32,909 --> 00:02:37,179 on develop, realizing it could 54 00:02:37,211 --> 00:02:38,983 applications, which I'm sure 55 00:02:39,283 --> 00:02:40,747 So follow up question there. 56 00:02:40,835 --> 00:02:44,219 It sounds like you came into 57 00:02:44,291 --> 00:02:47,115 side, but from, from that 58 00:02:47,219 --> 00:02:48,363 Than from the technology side. 59 00:02:48,403 --> 00:02:49,035 Is that right? 60 00:02:49,139 --> 00:02:50,619 Yeah, that's cool. 61 00:02:50,731 --> 00:02:54,539 But it seems like you figured 62 00:02:54,571 --> 00:02:55,463 side as well. 63 00:02:56,403 --> 00:02:59,707 Yeah, I'm a developer and so 64 00:02:59,795 --> 00:03:00,703 applications. 65 00:03:01,123 --> 00:03:05,463 My kind of journey, starting 66 00:03:05,503 --> 00:03:07,243 what I now call shitcoins. 67 00:03:07,663 --> 00:03:10,727 Forgive my French, but you 68 00:03:10,895 --> 00:03:14,567 because apparently they would 69 00:03:14,615 --> 00:03:15,403 applications. 70 00:03:15,743 --> 00:03:19,879 It turns out that they've only 71 00:03:19,991 --> 00:03:24,039 people from their money, but 72 00:03:24,111 --> 00:03:27,527 realizing that this is where 73 00:03:27,575 --> 00:03:29,683 activity is, is migrating to. 74 00:03:29,983 --> 00:03:31,095 Question number two. 75 00:03:31,119 --> 00:03:34,087 Is this what's an insight or 76 00:03:34,175 --> 00:03:35,003 understood? 77 00:03:36,383 --> 00:03:39,927 Probably increasingly 78 00:03:39,935 --> 00:03:42,407 to be a lot of talk about 79 00:03:42,455 --> 00:03:47,879 Is there really is and needs 80 00:03:47,991 --> 00:03:52,327 like the first invention of 81 00:03:52,375 --> 00:03:55,511 can never be reproduced and 82 00:03:55,527 --> 00:03:57,907 to do all sorts of other 83 00:03:57,915 --> 00:03:58,863 of like a technology. 84 00:03:59,403 --> 00:04:03,715 And there's going to be lots 85 00:04:03,819 --> 00:04:06,995 gets a debate at what the US 86 00:04:07,019 --> 00:04:08,863 of building reserves and 87 00:04:10,283 --> 00:04:17,667 And my kind of observation I 88 00:04:17,835 --> 00:04:21,987 so called toxic Bitcoin 89 00:04:22,035 --> 00:04:24,019 as I limit my toxicity to Twitter. 90 00:04:24,051 --> 00:04:26,103 I'm otherwise kind of, kind of nice. 91 00:04:27,563 --> 00:04:32,403 But that sort of like strict 92 00:04:32,443 --> 00:04:35,843 important defense mechanism 93 00:04:35,883 --> 00:04:41,363 or polluted by very well 94 00:04:41,403 --> 00:04:45,747 opt or hijack or distract or 95 00:04:45,875 --> 00:04:49,987 Fortunately, I think all of 96 00:04:50,035 --> 00:04:52,723 will continue to go to zero 97 00:04:52,803 --> 00:04:55,779 But there's going to be a lot 98 00:04:55,811 --> 00:04:59,711 as everyone kind of is 99 00:04:59,767 --> 00:05:01,519 government as legitimacy. 100 00:05:01,631 --> 00:05:03,327 So we'll see what happens. 101 00:05:03,375 --> 00:05:07,039 But you don't have to care 102 00:05:07,071 --> 00:05:07,807 or digital assets. 103 00:05:07,855 --> 00:05:09,855 It's okay to be Bitcoin only. 104 00:05:10,039 --> 00:05:10,943 Good to hear. 105 00:05:11,063 --> 00:05:12,015 So question number three. 106 00:05:12,039 --> 00:05:14,763 What's the bitcoin resource 107 00:05:15,543 --> 00:05:21,263 I think the body of work from 108 00:05:21,343 --> 00:05:24,719 probably what everyone 109 00:05:24,751 --> 00:05:25,375 standard. 110 00:05:25,519 --> 00:05:28,415 Um, it's okay to not get 111 00:05:28,439 --> 00:05:31,199 It's very like kind of 112 00:05:31,231 --> 00:05:34,447 but as like a philosophical 113 00:05:34,455 --> 00:05:38,175 of parallel book fiat standard 114 00:05:38,199 --> 00:05:41,087 it the evils of the fiat 115 00:05:41,175 --> 00:05:42,735 These really are the stakes. 116 00:05:42,879 --> 00:05:46,543 And my favorite quote from 117 00:05:46,583 --> 00:05:49,999 earlier point is that, you 118 00:05:50,031 --> 00:05:51,487 were not on the same team. 119 00:05:51,575 --> 00:05:55,279 Bitcoiners are trying to end 120 00:05:55,351 --> 00:05:56,323 money printing. 121 00:05:56,663 --> 00:06:00,655 The other people are basically 122 00:06:00,679 --> 00:06:01,295 they benefit. 123 00:06:01,359 --> 00:06:04,591 So the big innovation of 124 00:06:04,727 --> 00:06:08,735 alternative financial and 125 00:06:08,799 --> 00:06:12,895 system, and then on top of 126 00:06:12,919 --> 00:06:15,247 of beneficial things for humanity. 127 00:06:15,375 --> 00:06:16,223 Question number four. 128 00:06:16,263 --> 00:06:19,535 Beyond Bitcoin, what is a 129 00:06:19,559 --> 00:06:21,243 helpful to you or your work recently? 130 00:06:21,703 --> 00:06:26,257 I say an idea and that is kind 131 00:06:26,305 --> 00:06:29,653 It's both open source as well 132 00:06:30,153 --> 00:06:36,001 And this is adding real value 133 00:06:36,017 --> 00:06:39,873 an open source company, a 134 00:06:39,913 --> 00:06:40,913 on open source. 135 00:06:41,073 --> 00:06:43,601 It lends itself to interoperability. 136 00:06:43,697 --> 00:06:48,465 So there are other companies 137 00:06:48,489 --> 00:06:51,035 of building at the 138 00:06:51,209 --> 00:06:55,815 And because we're building on 139 00:06:55,879 --> 00:06:59,319 protocol, which is Bitcoin, 140 00:06:59,351 --> 00:07:00,919 above that called lightning. 141 00:07:01,111 --> 00:07:05,047 We're more or less also using 142 00:07:05,095 --> 00:07:08,807 that works well adjacent to 143 00:07:08,815 --> 00:07:13,943 like decentralized data, being 144 00:07:13,983 --> 00:07:17,639 that are more specific to our 145 00:07:17,671 --> 00:07:19,803 for agents on top of that substrate. 146 00:07:20,233 --> 00:07:22,753 Everyone kind of wants to 147 00:07:22,913 --> 00:07:24,305 So we're not competing. 148 00:07:24,449 --> 00:07:26,609 There are other companies that 149 00:07:26,681 --> 00:07:27,825 and that we are allies. 150 00:07:27,889 --> 00:07:29,137 So it's a value add. 151 00:07:29,225 --> 00:07:33,105 And if you look outside the 152 00:07:33,129 --> 00:07:36,449 at Silicon Valley where 153 00:07:36,481 --> 00:07:40,177 Everyone just wants to chase 154 00:07:40,185 --> 00:07:43,409 of a zero sum game in a lot of 155 00:07:43,441 --> 00:07:46,945 space where everyone's kind of 156 00:07:46,969 --> 00:07:47,665 own roll up. 157 00:07:47,689 --> 00:07:51,031 There's all these kind of like 158 00:07:51,047 --> 00:07:53,879 have incentive to cooperate, 159 00:07:53,911 --> 00:07:56,343 their token or whatever it is 160 00:07:56,423 --> 00:07:59,127 It does not lend itself to 161 00:07:59,215 --> 00:08:03,543 And I think over the next year 162 00:08:03,583 --> 00:08:07,879 see that interoperability 163 00:08:07,951 --> 00:08:10,151 competitive advantage for businesses. 164 00:08:10,247 --> 00:08:13,351 I can see how that's starting 165 00:08:13,487 --> 00:08:16,071 I think particularly once we 166 00:08:16,087 --> 00:08:19,413 through and we're able to kind 167 00:08:19,453 --> 00:08:20,873 with other businesses. 168 00:08:21,453 --> 00:08:24,885 There's a lot of kind of win, 169 00:08:24,909 --> 00:08:25,317 be done. 170 00:08:25,405 --> 00:08:27,669 I think it's going to be a 171 00:08:27,741 --> 00:08:29,957 the people that are building 172 00:08:30,125 --> 00:08:30,613 Yeah. 173 00:08:30,693 --> 00:08:33,605 I want to follow up with you 174 00:08:33,629 --> 00:08:36,277 about that because I'd be 175 00:08:36,285 --> 00:08:37,189 those trends that you're seeing. 176 00:08:37,221 --> 00:08:39,381 But for right now, let's get 177 00:08:39,437 --> 00:08:42,117 We call it our arbitrary but 178 00:08:42,205 --> 00:08:45,713 As a general life principle, 179 00:08:47,593 --> 00:08:49,053 I love both of those. 180 00:08:49,433 --> 00:08:54,769 And if I had to pick, I would 181 00:08:54,921 --> 00:08:58,001 Because why gets to first principles. 182 00:08:58,177 --> 00:09:03,585 And I think that that has to 183 00:09:03,649 --> 00:09:06,897 Like why do I need your 184 00:09:07,025 --> 00:09:08,529 Why do I need your crypto coin? 185 00:09:08,561 --> 00:09:09,585 Why do I need dot? 186 00:09:09,649 --> 00:09:10,481 Like why? 187 00:09:10,537 --> 00:09:12,657 You follow the whys and you 188 00:09:12,705 --> 00:09:13,825 beautiful place called. 189 00:09:13,929 --> 00:09:17,429 I actually don't need all of 190 00:09:17,521 --> 00:09:18,669 Everybody else. 191 00:09:18,861 --> 00:09:22,593 Let me start from the, the, 192 00:09:23,253 --> 00:09:25,725 and then the why not would 193 00:09:25,749 --> 00:09:30,237 oh my man, like I'm going to 194 00:09:30,285 --> 00:09:32,973 or people who don't want me to 195 00:09:33,093 --> 00:09:35,309 And then if there's a wall 196 00:09:35,341 --> 00:09:37,101 like, that's like a kind of a 197 00:09:37,157 --> 00:09:37,661 But why? 198 00:09:37,717 --> 00:09:38,793 Why comes first? 199 00:11:46,867 --> 00:11:49,947 Well, Christopher, we're here 200 00:11:49,987 --> 00:11:52,689 Agents, as well as getting 201 00:11:52,713 --> 00:11:57,009 it comes to Bitcoin and AI, 202 00:11:57,073 --> 00:12:00,929 Those are definitely two of 203 00:12:00,953 --> 00:12:01,761 of development. 204 00:12:01,929 --> 00:12:03,601 And you find yourself there in 205 00:12:03,649 --> 00:12:05,745 Can you share with us a little 206 00:12:05,921 --> 00:12:06,545 Sure. 207 00:12:06,681 --> 00:12:13,153 So I call Open Agents an 208 00:12:13,185 --> 00:12:18,373 and products for the agentic 209 00:12:18,545 --> 00:12:22,925 And the sort of impetus for 210 00:12:22,981 --> 00:12:28,413 the Dev day presentation in 211 00:12:28,445 --> 00:12:31,949 Altman unveiled their kind of 212 00:12:32,013 --> 00:12:33,217 around agents. 213 00:12:33,717 --> 00:12:38,781 I came to agree that agents 214 00:12:38,869 --> 00:12:42,269 sort of economic unit of the 215 00:12:42,333 --> 00:12:42,937 economy. 216 00:12:43,867 --> 00:12:46,067 And I just didn't like their approach. 217 00:12:46,187 --> 00:12:49,491 They mentioned also they were 218 00:12:49,499 --> 00:12:52,563 of like store for people to 219 00:12:52,595 --> 00:12:55,507 of agents and earn revenue 220 00:12:55,547 --> 00:12:59,443 And that's where I knew like 221 00:12:59,475 --> 00:13:00,883 not going to do that properly. 222 00:13:00,995 --> 00:13:04,659 They're just structurally not 223 00:13:04,683 --> 00:13:07,539 to build on Bitcoin and be 224 00:13:07,563 --> 00:13:10,579 like decentralized 225 00:13:10,603 --> 00:13:11,471 participant. 226 00:13:11,619 --> 00:13:12,823 And this had been my background. 227 00:13:12,855 --> 00:13:15,783 My previous startup was a gig 228 00:13:15,815 --> 00:13:19,175 and kind of delivery networks 229 00:13:19,191 --> 00:13:22,263 I was like, here is where the 230 00:13:22,295 --> 00:13:26,071 could be a big advantage and 231 00:13:26,159 --> 00:13:28,759 that focuses just on this. 232 00:13:28,943 --> 00:13:31,975 So I had a existing company at 233 00:13:31,991 --> 00:13:33,031 to focus on agents. 234 00:13:33,079 --> 00:13:35,547 We renamed the company to Open Agents. 235 00:13:35,887 --> 00:13:40,791 And the day after that I 236 00:13:40,879 --> 00:13:44,947 150 plus video series of me 237 00:13:44,987 --> 00:13:48,275 over time, over the last year, 238 00:13:48,291 --> 00:13:50,207 that we've put out, things 239 00:13:50,667 --> 00:13:55,027 But Open Agents is really like 240 00:13:55,067 --> 00:14:00,355 this idea of like a research 241 00:14:00,411 --> 00:14:04,067 AI economy, but like being 242 00:14:04,107 --> 00:14:06,835 that we're open and taking 243 00:14:06,891 --> 00:14:09,127 strategic advantages that that allows. 244 00:14:09,837 --> 00:14:12,229 Could you talk a little bit 245 00:14:12,253 --> 00:14:14,977 the agentic economy, what that 246 00:14:15,597 --> 00:14:20,405 Well, the bet is that there 247 00:14:20,421 --> 00:14:24,149 of agents everywhere 248 00:14:24,213 --> 00:14:28,309 I mean, and to kind of drive 249 00:14:28,333 --> 00:14:33,237 look at the humanoid robotics 250 00:14:33,317 --> 00:14:34,533 and Optimus is. 251 00:14:34,685 --> 00:14:38,809 He's trying to manufacture a 252 00:14:38,833 --> 00:14:39,849 in the next decade. 253 00:14:39,993 --> 00:14:42,473 So just, let's just say that 254 00:14:42,505 --> 00:14:44,281 at some point in the next 10 255 00:14:44,449 --> 00:14:49,113 Before that point, the 256 00:14:49,145 --> 00:14:50,025 but for software. 257 00:14:50,121 --> 00:14:53,017 What we call AI agents are 258 00:14:53,057 --> 00:14:55,081 Like that's the first thing 259 00:14:55,089 --> 00:14:55,897 to grapple with. 260 00:14:56,017 --> 00:14:59,945 Agents are everywhere by 261 00:15:00,041 --> 00:15:03,791 person, family, business, 262 00:15:03,839 --> 00:15:07,871 device, business, everything 263 00:15:07,919 --> 00:15:09,551 processes running as part of it. 264 00:15:09,639 --> 00:15:12,627 And let's like pause to define agent. 265 00:15:13,047 --> 00:15:15,359 Plenty of people have their 266 00:15:15,383 --> 00:15:20,095 of like something that no one 267 00:15:20,191 --> 00:15:23,119 I like to keep things simple 268 00:15:23,183 --> 00:15:25,467 process that does what you ask 269 00:15:25,767 --> 00:15:30,395 There's a lot of people that 270 00:15:30,491 --> 00:15:34,539 we're building AGI or building 271 00:15:34,643 --> 00:15:38,027 And there's a lot of kind of, 272 00:15:38,067 --> 00:15:41,451 it that I'm trying to steer 273 00:15:41,499 --> 00:15:44,747 This is something that 274 00:15:44,827 --> 00:15:47,867 If the kinds of things that 275 00:15:47,907 --> 00:15:51,387 particularly in your business 276 00:15:51,547 --> 00:15:55,339 and you can have 10 different 277 00:15:55,443 --> 00:15:56,779 monitoring your email, whatever. 278 00:15:56,843 --> 00:16:01,097 Like it's about fundamentally 279 00:16:01,137 --> 00:16:01,577 that. 280 00:16:01,697 --> 00:16:05,065 But if we think about what is 281 00:16:05,121 --> 00:16:09,705 fundamentally that this has to 282 00:16:09,801 --> 00:16:10,905 of openness. 283 00:16:11,001 --> 00:16:14,793 If you have multiple billions 284 00:16:14,825 --> 00:16:19,577 of them are controlled by 285 00:16:19,737 --> 00:16:23,945 with connections to 286 00:16:23,961 --> 00:16:27,977 a whole bunch of people or you 287 00:16:28,017 --> 00:16:32,229 that are excited about 288 00:16:32,293 --> 00:16:34,389 and people are going to be on 289 00:16:34,453 --> 00:16:37,621 Like there's a lot of like 290 00:16:37,669 --> 00:16:38,581 of the technology. 291 00:16:38,749 --> 00:16:43,717 And I think that if the sort 292 00:16:43,757 --> 00:16:48,597 okay with it being controlled 293 00:16:48,677 --> 00:16:49,893 you're going to get a lot of that. 294 00:16:49,965 --> 00:16:53,765 But if the ethos shifts, 295 00:16:53,861 --> 00:16:56,197 open, things are expected to 296 00:16:56,277 --> 00:16:59,765 I think a lot of that bad 297 00:16:59,781 --> 00:17:00,881 off or get away with. 298 00:17:00,989 --> 00:17:04,793 So we're trying to build the 299 00:17:04,865 --> 00:17:08,397 for that economy on a neutral 300 00:17:08,737 --> 00:17:12,697 And does decentralized mean 301 00:17:12,777 --> 00:17:13,481 Not necessarily. 302 00:17:13,529 --> 00:17:14,457 What does that look like? 303 00:17:14,577 --> 00:17:16,825 It seems like that would be 304 00:17:16,881 --> 00:17:17,929 But what are your thoughts there? 305 00:17:17,953 --> 00:17:20,597 I don't know how practical 306 00:17:21,537 --> 00:17:26,649 Part of the beauty of a system 307 00:17:26,673 --> 00:17:30,329 a parallel is it allows for a 308 00:17:30,393 --> 00:17:34,517 So if you are that hobbyist or 309 00:17:34,597 --> 00:17:35,653 on your home machine. 310 00:17:35,685 --> 00:17:38,053 I've got my Linux computer 311 00:17:38,085 --> 00:17:41,813 it apart, you know, modify it 312 00:17:41,885 --> 00:17:44,357 you know, guarantees about 313 00:17:44,397 --> 00:17:47,653 kind of like black box 314 00:17:47,685 --> 00:17:51,669 But you can also build on top 315 00:17:51,733 --> 00:17:53,861 That's a more curated consumer experience. 316 00:17:54,029 --> 00:17:58,469 But Linux is the, you know, 317 00:17:58,493 --> 00:17:59,269 all these kinds of things. 318 00:17:59,293 --> 00:18:03,513 And so if we look at that kind 319 00:18:03,545 --> 00:18:07,321 and Linux, I think you're 320 00:18:07,369 --> 00:18:10,761 space where, you know, 321 00:18:10,809 --> 00:18:13,465 they're still the Windows 322 00:18:13,521 --> 00:18:17,017 You know, they own 49% of 323 00:18:17,057 --> 00:18:20,905 closed AI, GitHub and 324 00:18:20,961 --> 00:18:23,077 their empire in their 325 00:18:23,377 --> 00:18:25,801 You've got a lot of, on the 326 00:18:25,849 --> 00:18:28,761 and people, you know, taking 327 00:18:28,809 --> 00:18:30,255 wherever and running with them. 328 00:18:30,441 --> 00:18:31,507 That's cool. 329 00:18:31,667 --> 00:18:35,635 But we do think there should 330 00:18:35,651 --> 00:18:39,939 of equivalent of macOS that is 331 00:18:39,963 --> 00:18:42,947 can then still smooth down 332 00:18:42,987 --> 00:18:44,487 scare off consumers. 333 00:18:44,907 --> 00:18:48,339 And in the space of AI agents, 334 00:18:48,363 --> 00:18:50,567 that's where we're trying to 335 00:18:51,227 --> 00:18:55,987 So as far as your current and 336 00:18:56,067 --> 00:18:56,915 what do those look like? 337 00:18:56,971 --> 00:19:00,637 What can people be expecting 338 00:19:00,937 --> 00:19:04,865 Yeah, in the short term we're 339 00:19:04,921 --> 00:19:07,809 case that we've identified 340 00:19:07,913 --> 00:19:11,409 thousands of dollars per month 341 00:19:11,553 --> 00:19:15,517 Kind of a drop in remote 342 00:19:16,297 --> 00:19:20,753 This we think is going to help 343 00:19:20,945 --> 00:19:24,625 where just imagine that we 344 00:19:24,681 --> 00:19:28,293 at a lot of things, but it's 345 00:19:28,325 --> 00:19:31,893 of data source or whatever 346 00:19:31,925 --> 00:19:35,461 developer who has some unique 347 00:19:35,469 --> 00:19:38,549 be able to create a plugin 348 00:19:38,573 --> 00:19:40,213 get a little share of that revenue. 349 00:19:40,325 --> 00:19:43,445 I think once we get that 350 00:19:43,541 --> 00:19:47,297 that's going to let us broaden 351 00:19:47,837 --> 00:19:51,637 And we want to get to the 352 00:19:51,717 --> 00:19:55,871 this end up will being a be a 353 00:19:55,919 --> 00:20:00,495 to be able to have their own 354 00:20:00,551 --> 00:20:03,023 way to Command agents, which 355 00:20:03,055 --> 00:20:03,679 app. 356 00:20:03,863 --> 00:20:06,607 Plenty of people think that, 357 00:20:06,647 --> 00:20:08,143 some other device or they're not. 358 00:20:08,295 --> 00:20:12,879 We, we are strong believers in 359 00:20:12,903 --> 00:20:15,327 everyone is already paying for 360 00:20:15,367 --> 00:20:17,707 literally all of the 361 00:20:18,727 --> 00:20:21,375 I guess you could say in some 362 00:20:21,391 --> 00:20:22,639 with Apple on that. 363 00:20:22,743 --> 00:20:26,127 I think that I have their 364 00:20:26,207 --> 00:20:28,591 have been like very underwhelming. 365 00:20:28,639 --> 00:20:31,391 I don't think they have the 366 00:20:31,479 --> 00:20:33,151 We'll see if that changes. 367 00:20:33,199 --> 00:20:36,623 But you know, I fundamentally, 368 00:20:36,695 --> 00:20:38,111 install our mobile app. 369 00:20:38,199 --> 00:20:40,735 We have an app in development 370 00:20:40,911 --> 00:20:44,559 In open beta, it's still kind 371 00:20:44,703 --> 00:20:46,623 That's the kind of tools that 372 00:20:46,775 --> 00:20:49,999 But over the next few months 373 00:20:50,023 --> 00:20:51,023 open ended and generic. 374 00:20:51,055 --> 00:20:55,231 So to sum up, we're doing two interfaces. 375 00:20:55,279 --> 00:20:58,159 We're doing a web application 376 00:20:58,183 --> 00:21:01,039 you want to, you know, click 377 00:21:01,063 --> 00:21:06,047 it work and the kind of data 378 00:21:06,167 --> 00:21:09,727 or you can click to download 379 00:21:09,807 --> 00:21:13,311 We're envisioning that as like 380 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:14,143 from Tony Stark. 381 00:21:14,175 --> 00:21:17,239 You just got your thing that 382 00:21:17,263 --> 00:21:20,023 it does stuff for you, that 383 00:21:20,175 --> 00:21:21,911 Is it could be a coding agent. 384 00:21:21,959 --> 00:21:25,511 It could be literally anything 385 00:21:25,559 --> 00:21:27,767 marketplace that we're 386 00:21:27,847 --> 00:21:30,231 where you don't have to care 387 00:21:30,239 --> 00:21:31,495 stuff that's happening in the background. 388 00:21:31,591 --> 00:21:33,399 You're just able to ask it to 389 00:21:33,423 --> 00:21:33,847 And it does. 390 00:21:33,887 --> 00:21:37,015 If you ask it to do something 391 00:21:37,031 --> 00:21:39,399 going to open up a little job 392 00:21:39,423 --> 00:21:41,367 10 people requested this 393 00:21:41,487 --> 00:21:45,575 We will pay half a bitcoin for 394 00:21:45,631 --> 00:21:47,383 Or maybe way less than half a bitcoin. 395 00:21:47,415 --> 00:21:50,999 But you know, this, this will 396 00:21:51,023 --> 00:21:51,623 user demands. 397 00:21:51,655 --> 00:21:55,671 But I think that's one thing 398 00:21:55,719 --> 00:21:57,911 have is that marketplace. 399 00:21:57,959 --> 00:22:02,903 I don't see anyone really 400 00:22:02,975 --> 00:22:03,351 effect. 401 00:22:03,439 --> 00:22:06,471 What is going to set companies apart. 402 00:22:06,599 --> 00:22:09,959 Obviously there's a race to 403 00:22:09,983 --> 00:22:11,639 the base level of models. 404 00:22:11,783 --> 00:22:15,251 There's what seems to be an 405 00:22:15,259 --> 00:22:17,767 battle is going to be more at 406 00:22:18,347 --> 00:22:24,595 And the sort of excitement 407 00:22:24,611 --> 00:22:28,207 to be around this concept of 408 00:22:28,667 --> 00:22:31,619 Companies that specialize in 409 00:22:31,643 --> 00:22:34,147 get very good at kind of 410 00:22:34,187 --> 00:22:35,207 AI agents. 411 00:22:35,547 --> 00:22:40,627 That's kind of like the, the, 412 00:22:40,667 --> 00:22:42,247 in Silicon Valley and such. 413 00:22:42,427 --> 00:22:44,495 I take a different view on that. 414 00:22:44,631 --> 00:22:45,823 That type of company. 415 00:22:45,895 --> 00:22:51,119 Vertical agents reminds me of 416 00:22:51,143 --> 00:22:54,479 people took the idea of Uber 417 00:22:54,503 --> 00:22:59,295 different things and five, ten 418 00:22:59,311 --> 00:23:01,807 to come up with like a real 419 00:23:01,847 --> 00:23:02,255 type companies. 420 00:23:02,311 --> 00:23:03,663 Maybe there's a couple. 421 00:23:03,855 --> 00:23:05,119 Uber is still there. 422 00:23:05,223 --> 00:23:08,597 So it's like in the realm of 423 00:23:08,637 --> 00:23:10,757 daddy market hegemon going to be? 424 00:23:10,797 --> 00:23:14,901 I think open agents has a 425 00:23:14,949 --> 00:23:17,941 it's ideally it should be both 426 00:23:17,989 --> 00:23:21,317 And how we get away with that 427 00:23:21,357 --> 00:23:22,693 case coding. 428 00:23:22,725 --> 00:23:26,117 Agents is what we're focused 429 00:23:26,197 --> 00:23:29,093 both for, you know, our team 430 00:23:29,125 --> 00:23:30,469 that we're starting to work with. 431 00:23:30,653 --> 00:23:34,753 And enterprises are going to 432 00:23:34,785 --> 00:23:35,345 engineer. 433 00:23:35,441 --> 00:23:38,209 But like I said, to be able to 434 00:23:38,233 --> 00:23:42,273 marketplace where we're able 435 00:23:42,305 --> 00:23:46,209 and service providers to help 436 00:23:46,273 --> 00:23:49,953 of the open agents platform 437 00:23:50,025 --> 00:23:53,825 distribution because we have a 438 00:23:53,841 --> 00:23:54,657 with businesses. 439 00:23:54,737 --> 00:23:55,905 We get paid by the business. 440 00:23:55,961 --> 00:23:59,477 We pay out, you know, cuts to 441 00:23:59,817 --> 00:24:04,107 So in that respect we want to 442 00:24:04,567 --> 00:24:07,903 I think that's how we, we 443 00:24:08,095 --> 00:24:11,119 And then that network effect 444 00:24:11,183 --> 00:24:12,815 we're building the best agents. 445 00:24:12,991 --> 00:24:14,783 Where are people going to go 446 00:24:14,815 --> 00:24:17,775 They're going to come to open 447 00:24:17,831 --> 00:24:18,543 it's open agents. 448 00:24:18,575 --> 00:24:20,079 Of course you want open agents. 449 00:24:20,223 --> 00:24:23,359 You don't want agents that 450 00:24:23,423 --> 00:24:24,671 No, you want open agents. 451 00:24:24,719 --> 00:24:25,071 Right. 452 00:24:25,159 --> 00:24:28,607 So then when it comes to Onyx, 453 00:24:28,647 --> 00:24:31,739 I'm guessing that's primarily 454 00:24:31,803 --> 00:24:34,043 Just, you know, the average 455 00:24:34,155 --> 00:24:35,147 What does that cost. 456 00:24:35,267 --> 00:24:39,019 We hope for Onyx to be free, 457 00:24:39,083 --> 00:24:41,435 Certainly there will be a base 458 00:24:41,571 --> 00:24:45,899 And you know, you can start to 459 00:24:45,923 --> 00:24:49,387 been changing where now like 460 00:24:49,427 --> 00:24:50,407 mini for free. 461 00:24:50,947 --> 00:24:53,835 Deep Seek has been offering 462 00:24:53,891 --> 00:24:55,003 services are getting slammed. 463 00:24:55,035 --> 00:24:56,987 So they got, there's got to be 464 00:24:57,067 --> 00:25:00,321 But I think, you know, a year 465 00:25:00,369 --> 00:25:03,313 will be really going viral 466 00:25:03,345 --> 00:25:06,129 that the models could be just 467 00:25:06,153 --> 00:25:08,593 away really powerful 468 00:25:08,665 --> 00:25:10,689 running some devices on, on 469 00:25:10,753 --> 00:25:14,849 Like we shipped a couple kind 470 00:25:14,913 --> 00:25:19,409 3.21b or 3d model running on 471 00:25:19,473 --> 00:25:20,529 Like we don't need to charge 472 00:25:20,553 --> 00:25:22,077 It's using your own battery power. 473 00:25:23,177 --> 00:25:26,161 You know, there will be other 474 00:25:26,209 --> 00:25:28,417 like if someone wants to pay 475 00:25:28,537 --> 00:25:35,645 So we'll experiment but you 476 00:25:35,701 --> 00:25:38,093 of open agents enterprise 477 00:25:38,125 --> 00:25:38,429 comes from. 478 00:25:38,453 --> 00:25:41,213 And then we're just able to 479 00:25:41,285 --> 00:25:44,141 lead gen and other kinds of opportunities. 480 00:25:44,269 --> 00:25:44,845 Yeah. 481 00:25:44,941 --> 00:25:48,317 So while people are waiting 482 00:25:48,397 --> 00:25:50,861 today for an AI agent? 483 00:25:50,909 --> 00:25:53,485 You know what the average 484 00:25:53,501 --> 00:25:54,457 that they use? 485 00:25:55,407 --> 00:25:56,551 The average person? 486 00:25:56,639 --> 00:26:02,407 I mean, I would say like using 487 00:26:02,447 --> 00:26:06,359 talks about like chat GPT 488 00:26:06,383 --> 00:26:09,527 point where you're like, I 489 00:26:09,567 --> 00:26:10,507 it can't. 490 00:26:11,007 --> 00:26:13,047 That's where you want to start 491 00:26:13,087 --> 00:26:16,823 And, and for most people maybe 492 00:26:16,855 --> 00:26:18,387 your needs and you're fine 493 00:26:19,487 --> 00:26:24,539 I would say that if you're a 494 00:26:24,603 --> 00:26:28,875 developers or you're just 495 00:26:28,931 --> 00:26:32,395 efficiency in your development 496 00:26:32,451 --> 00:26:34,859 that's where you should reach 497 00:26:34,883 --> 00:26:38,859 we are working with people and 498 00:26:38,883 --> 00:26:43,003 way more bang for the buck 499 00:26:43,075 --> 00:26:44,107 kind of most people. 500 00:26:44,227 --> 00:26:47,355 Yeah, I'd say use what's out there. 501 00:26:47,491 --> 00:26:50,509 If you have, I don't know, 502 00:26:50,533 --> 00:26:52,365 identify, please tweet them at us. 503 00:26:52,501 --> 00:26:55,549 At Open Agents, you know, 504 00:26:55,573 --> 00:27:00,445 those things that OpenAI and 505 00:27:00,581 --> 00:27:02,297 It's, it's a moving target. 506 00:27:02,837 --> 00:27:06,381 But the hope is that by, you 507 00:27:06,389 --> 00:27:10,333 infrastructure in place such 508 00:27:10,445 --> 00:27:15,909 like I'm asking my Onyx to do 509 00:27:15,973 --> 00:27:18,197 right away, it gets turned 510 00:27:18,237 --> 00:27:21,269 you know, builds and it's, 511 00:27:21,333 --> 00:27:25,297 evolving product I think, I 512 00:27:25,597 --> 00:27:29,109 So for devs, when it comes to 513 00:27:29,133 --> 00:27:33,417 compare your current product 514 00:27:35,117 --> 00:27:41,493 Well, OpenAI on their like $20 515 00:27:41,565 --> 00:27:42,757 losing money on that. 516 00:27:42,877 --> 00:27:46,911 So I think there's a level of, 517 00:27:46,959 --> 00:27:50,255 just able to do because 518 00:27:50,271 --> 00:27:51,775 of money that we can't, we 519 00:27:51,831 --> 00:27:52,427 Sure. 520 00:27:54,647 --> 00:27:59,727 I have been happy for my day 521 00:27:59,767 --> 00:28:03,343 to $100 per day sometimes 522 00:28:03,375 --> 00:28:06,959 of thousands of dollars that I 523 00:28:07,023 --> 00:28:10,159 So I do think the kind of per 524 00:28:10,183 --> 00:28:12,719 sense where we can take, 525 00:28:12,743 --> 00:28:16,303 Deep Seq, which is like 526 00:28:16,335 --> 00:28:21,211 for, for percent of the 527 00:28:21,259 --> 00:28:23,579 that a bunch of the developers 528 00:28:23,603 --> 00:28:27,487 happy to, you know, buy $20 or 529 00:28:27,907 --> 00:28:30,571 And I'm, I'm confident, 530 00:28:30,579 --> 00:28:33,595 come down, if you're able to 531 00:28:33,611 --> 00:28:38,107 able to spend $5 of compute to 532 00:28:38,147 --> 00:28:42,087 pull requests done and that 533 00:28:42,867 --> 00:28:45,211 Developers who like know how 534 00:28:45,219 --> 00:28:47,057 see the value in that very, 535 00:28:47,187 --> 00:28:47,909 Yeah. 536 00:28:48,053 --> 00:28:49,589 So you mentioned Deep Seek. 537 00:28:49,733 --> 00:28:50,901 What are your initial thoughts? 538 00:28:50,949 --> 00:28:52,885 It's been out for a few days. 539 00:28:53,021 --> 00:28:57,973 Is it kind of a sea change or 540 00:28:58,085 --> 00:28:59,577 What are initial thoughts? 541 00:29:00,637 --> 00:29:05,237 It may be overhyped and a lot 542 00:29:05,397 --> 00:29:08,821 it's revolutionary and I'm 543 00:29:08,869 --> 00:29:13,397 where I'm spending X amount on Claude. 544 00:29:13,477 --> 00:29:17,037 I, I have our Claude has been 545 00:29:17,077 --> 00:29:18,697 have used for the last six months. 546 00:29:19,077 --> 00:29:23,549 We've been for the last 18 547 00:29:23,653 --> 00:29:31,069 OpenAI Claude 3 came out GPT 548 00:29:31,093 --> 00:29:33,933 been the best for the last six 549 00:29:33,965 --> 00:29:36,497 coding agents, but it can be expensive. 550 00:29:36,837 --> 00:29:43,953 And so here comes a model that 551 00:29:44,145 --> 00:29:47,473 And even though in some cases 552 00:29:47,505 --> 00:29:51,249 model generally, and this is 553 00:29:51,433 --> 00:29:55,553 we're stripping Sonnet out of 554 00:29:55,585 --> 00:29:58,801 it with more of a kind of a 555 00:29:58,809 --> 00:30:02,193 just one call to Sonnet, we'll 556 00:30:02,225 --> 00:30:04,177 and kind of more smartly build 557 00:30:04,257 --> 00:30:07,649 So at least in our initial 558 00:30:07,673 --> 00:30:08,889 way smarter result. 559 00:30:09,033 --> 00:30:10,617 In the end, it's smarter and cheaper. 560 00:30:10,697 --> 00:30:12,357 Takes a little bit more work 561 00:30:13,617 --> 00:30:16,425 So from my perspective, just 562 00:30:16,441 --> 00:30:19,401 something finally I can rip 563 00:30:19,529 --> 00:30:24,009 In addition to the platform 564 00:30:24,033 --> 00:30:26,677 by anthropic or their APIs are 565 00:30:27,697 --> 00:30:29,561 I can use Deep Seats API. 566 00:30:29,609 --> 00:30:31,993 I can use, it's hosted a bunch 567 00:30:32,105 --> 00:30:34,919 I learned just in the last day 568 00:30:35,033 --> 00:30:37,851 The full version of R1, not 569 00:30:37,899 --> 00:30:41,531 the full version of R1 to 570 00:30:41,619 --> 00:30:45,579 Or you can build a rig to run 571 00:30:45,683 --> 00:30:47,819 I was like, all right, maybe 572 00:30:47,843 --> 00:30:51,371 bit because I want to run one 573 00:30:51,379 --> 00:30:51,547 me. 574 00:30:51,587 --> 00:30:52,379 How cool would that be? 575 00:30:52,403 --> 00:30:55,419 And then maybe we'll connect 576 00:30:55,443 --> 00:30:59,291 But like it's, it's remarkable 577 00:30:59,339 --> 00:31:00,187 of things. 578 00:31:00,227 --> 00:31:03,609 But it's finally, we finally 579 00:31:03,633 --> 00:31:06,089 of us inside of the sort of 580 00:31:06,113 --> 00:31:10,089 been hoping for, for a long 581 00:31:10,113 --> 00:31:14,985 least at par with the leading 582 00:31:15,081 --> 00:31:17,225 that is open that we can run 583 00:31:17,361 --> 00:31:21,561 And the fact that they've 584 00:31:21,609 --> 00:31:24,121 because you can just think 585 00:31:24,129 --> 00:31:27,625 are able to fine tune that in 586 00:31:27,641 --> 00:31:32,847 of it, that it just unlocks 587 00:31:33,587 --> 00:31:37,739 not possible with the closed 588 00:31:37,803 --> 00:31:41,115 because it is so transparent 589 00:31:41,251 --> 00:31:44,123 I mean this has been a major 590 00:31:44,155 --> 00:31:46,043 developers have complained about. 591 00:31:46,195 --> 00:31:48,907 OpenAI, which is they're 592 00:31:49,027 --> 00:31:51,387 For 01 or 01 Pro. 593 00:31:51,507 --> 00:31:54,219 And you're paying for this 594 00:31:54,243 --> 00:31:55,291 do all this thinking. 595 00:31:55,419 --> 00:31:58,459 And sometimes you'll sit there 596 00:31:58,483 --> 00:32:00,453 minutes while it's thinking. 597 00:32:00,645 --> 00:32:03,221 It doesn't really tell you 598 00:32:03,269 --> 00:32:06,197 You get little like very bare 599 00:32:06,357 --> 00:32:10,021 But with Deep Seek, you get 600 00:32:10,029 --> 00:32:11,781 of its thought process, you 601 00:32:11,869 --> 00:32:16,517 Now OpenAI has their kind of 602 00:32:16,557 --> 00:32:19,637 hiding that because they know 603 00:32:19,677 --> 00:32:23,317 it makes it that much easier 604 00:32:23,357 --> 00:32:25,857 can do better than, than what 605 00:32:26,227 --> 00:32:31,579 But that's a major, I think 606 00:32:31,723 --> 00:32:36,459 if they're trying to build 607 00:32:36,523 --> 00:32:37,803 as it's going to be. 608 00:32:37,955 --> 00:32:41,051 You're, you're basically in 609 00:32:41,059 --> 00:32:44,043 the model, the provider of the 610 00:32:44,115 --> 00:32:48,283 to, you know, I'm hiring these 611 00:32:48,315 --> 00:32:51,403 building agentic processes 612 00:32:51,555 --> 00:32:52,935 large parts of my business. 613 00:32:53,091 --> 00:32:57,103 And you're not even going to 614 00:32:57,215 --> 00:32:58,895 I can't reproduce any of this. 615 00:32:59,031 --> 00:33:01,983 I can't see what happens when 616 00:33:02,095 --> 00:33:04,911 And then all this additional 617 00:33:04,959 --> 00:33:06,527 you're not going to share that 618 00:33:06,647 --> 00:33:10,111 I know, but over here I can 619 00:33:10,159 --> 00:33:10,799 quality. 620 00:33:10,943 --> 00:33:12,143 I think they're in a tough spot. 621 00:33:12,175 --> 00:33:13,467 I wouldn't want to be them. 622 00:33:13,767 --> 00:33:16,143 It's a good time to be 623 00:33:16,175 --> 00:33:18,671 no longer running to catch up. 624 00:33:18,759 --> 00:33:21,813 We may, we may, you know, 625 00:33:21,885 --> 00:33:25,573 In some things we are power, 626 00:33:25,605 --> 00:33:28,549 Because there's a whole slew 627 00:33:28,733 --> 00:33:29,493 open AI. 628 00:33:29,525 --> 00:33:32,277 They can't use their API 629 00:33:32,317 --> 00:33:33,445 leave their premises. 630 00:33:33,621 --> 00:33:36,229 And so maybe you've got some 631 00:33:36,253 --> 00:33:36,789 of custom. 632 00:33:36,893 --> 00:33:39,813 There's companies, one or two 633 00:33:39,845 --> 00:33:41,733 send people on site to help 634 00:33:41,805 --> 00:33:46,789 But just that ability to know 635 00:33:46,813 --> 00:33:48,337 inspect it, modify it. 636 00:33:49,027 --> 00:33:53,287 Yeah, we need that, we need 637 00:33:53,987 --> 00:33:57,047 the closed source, you know, 638 00:33:57,507 --> 00:34:00,267 And then we just want to build 639 00:34:00,307 --> 00:34:02,107 That's the, the apple of that. 640 00:34:02,227 --> 00:34:02,763 Yeah. 641 00:34:02,875 --> 00:34:06,923 So Some people have tried to 642 00:34:07,075 --> 00:34:10,315 It sounds like it's a win of 643 00:34:10,331 --> 00:34:12,087 Is that the better way of 644 00:34:12,787 --> 00:34:14,139 Yes, I do think so. 645 00:34:14,243 --> 00:34:17,007 And you know, certainly 646 00:34:17,807 --> 00:34:22,087 I'll actually just read my 647 00:34:22,127 --> 00:34:25,707 I tweeted at David Sacks, the 648 00:34:26,207 --> 00:34:29,627 He was talking about Deep Seek 649 00:34:30,367 --> 00:34:32,087 US, China, etc. 650 00:34:32,167 --> 00:34:36,919 And my response was, hopefully 651 00:34:36,943 --> 00:34:41,095 attempts at regulatory capture 652 00:34:41,231 --> 00:34:45,125 both dimensions, us versus 653 00:34:45,141 --> 00:34:49,205 I'm seeing way too many calls 654 00:34:49,261 --> 00:34:53,669 It's the wrong approach and 655 00:34:53,733 --> 00:35:00,257 AI, or else there's some kind 656 00:35:00,717 --> 00:35:05,733 players that are behind might 657 00:35:05,885 --> 00:35:08,773 get a strategic edge and 658 00:35:08,805 --> 00:35:11,625 And people have speculated 659 00:35:11,681 --> 00:35:16,457 because they've been behind 660 00:35:16,497 --> 00:35:18,057 actually on the side of open source. 661 00:35:18,137 --> 00:35:20,037 You're right to be skeptical 662 00:35:20,497 --> 00:35:24,889 In the case of Wen Fang Lang, 663 00:35:24,913 --> 00:35:28,361 but the CEO of Deep Seek, you 664 00:35:28,409 --> 00:35:30,329 someone did a profile on him. 665 00:35:30,513 --> 00:35:33,545 He's just some nerd who 666 00:35:33,601 --> 00:35:34,057 source. 667 00:35:34,137 --> 00:35:36,681 And like he's building an open 668 00:35:36,689 --> 00:35:37,397 in China. 669 00:35:38,117 --> 00:35:40,701 So I view Deep Seek as allies. 670 00:35:40,749 --> 00:35:42,733 I see them as on Team Open. 671 00:35:42,885 --> 00:35:46,941 And I hope that lessons that 672 00:35:47,109 --> 00:35:51,645 take from this is not that we 673 00:35:51,661 --> 00:35:55,885 to strike more of these kind 674 00:35:55,981 --> 00:35:56,733 with companies. 675 00:35:56,805 --> 00:35:58,925 Like, I mean, you've already 676 00:35:58,981 --> 00:36:05,147 in the space are actively 677 00:36:05,487 --> 00:36:07,975 There's a bunch of that during 678 00:36:08,151 --> 00:36:10,727 The tail end of the Biden 679 00:36:10,767 --> 00:36:13,639 that like they were going to 680 00:36:13,663 --> 00:36:14,667 Anthropic. 681 00:36:15,087 --> 00:36:16,855 Essentially, that's it to. 682 00:36:16,911 --> 00:36:20,663 To build this kind of de facto 683 00:36:20,695 --> 00:36:23,159 been blown wide open by 684 00:36:23,263 --> 00:36:26,967 But you still have what, day 685 00:36:27,047 --> 00:36:31,503 Sam Altman closed AI guy up 686 00:36:31,695 --> 00:36:33,787 for open air only. 687 00:36:34,567 --> 00:36:35,311 What? 688 00:36:35,479 --> 00:36:38,079 I guess it's all private 689 00:36:38,143 --> 00:36:40,703 Even though there's some 690 00:36:40,775 --> 00:36:41,055 there. 691 00:36:41,111 --> 00:36:43,727 Elon has poured cold water on 692 00:36:43,767 --> 00:36:44,591 have the money. 693 00:36:44,759 --> 00:36:48,303 So how much of that was just 694 00:36:48,415 --> 00:36:49,039 We don't know yet. 695 00:36:49,063 --> 00:36:53,791 They do have a, or Oracle I 696 00:36:53,839 --> 00:36:56,335 in Abilene that's been 697 00:36:56,391 --> 00:36:58,787 So that's sort of like phase 698 00:36:59,827 --> 00:37:04,091 But you know, clarity has come 699 00:37:04,139 --> 00:37:05,771 building this for open AI. 700 00:37:05,899 --> 00:37:10,187 So this is not like a neutral, 701 00:37:10,227 --> 00:37:12,859 This is like this is an open 702 00:37:12,963 --> 00:37:17,867 And if OpenAI has the issues 703 00:37:17,907 --> 00:37:19,579 you know, skepticism given. 704 00:37:19,763 --> 00:37:25,067 Altman also has been issuing 705 00:37:25,107 --> 00:37:26,843 like harvest people's 706 00:37:26,915 --> 00:37:30,947 There's some concerns about 707 00:37:30,987 --> 00:37:32,707 the future of this, of this technology. 708 00:37:32,827 --> 00:37:37,715 Altman would probably love to, 709 00:37:37,771 --> 00:37:42,499 the AI utopia slash dystopia, 710 00:37:42,523 --> 00:37:43,859 be the, the structure at all. 711 00:37:43,883 --> 00:37:46,019 It should be more 712 00:37:46,043 --> 00:37:46,515 open. 713 00:37:46,651 --> 00:37:51,027 I hope that America can lead 714 00:37:51,067 --> 00:37:54,787 is really in line with the 715 00:37:54,867 --> 00:37:58,353 It's just whether some kind of 716 00:37:58,425 --> 00:38:03,505 incentive to have the US 717 00:38:03,561 --> 00:38:06,917 which unfortunately happens a 718 00:38:07,977 --> 00:38:10,961 Yeah, it seems like Stargate 719 00:38:11,009 --> 00:38:13,969 Seek or at least the main 720 00:38:14,033 --> 00:38:17,457 I still think it's important 721 00:38:17,537 --> 00:38:23,027 but if it's all going, or if 722 00:38:23,067 --> 00:38:26,167 now I feel like Open AI is 723 00:38:26,587 --> 00:38:27,507 Well, I think so too. 724 00:38:27,547 --> 00:38:32,163 And it's, it's, you know, if 725 00:38:32,235 --> 00:38:39,971 incentive for the kind of 726 00:38:40,019 --> 00:38:41,075 to keep going up and. 727 00:38:41,131 --> 00:38:46,803 Oh yeah, like you know, that 728 00:38:46,835 --> 00:38:50,547 all this money on the latest 729 00:38:50,587 --> 00:38:54,013 amount of returns, maybe 730 00:38:54,085 --> 00:38:58,749 some, some insights of 731 00:38:58,853 --> 00:39:02,573 coming up with you know, an 732 00:39:02,605 --> 00:39:05,057 efficiency and like starts 733 00:39:05,397 --> 00:39:07,837 I, I just see all of that as a 734 00:39:07,957 --> 00:39:12,017 There's definitely too much 735 00:39:12,837 --> 00:39:14,109 returning to reality. 736 00:39:14,173 --> 00:39:18,285 Particularly recognitions that 737 00:39:18,341 --> 00:39:20,657 important thing to embrace actively. 738 00:39:21,177 --> 00:39:23,317 I think that's all bullish. 739 00:39:24,057 --> 00:39:28,129 Now I know with the app 740 00:39:28,153 --> 00:39:29,201 of its answers. 741 00:39:29,329 --> 00:39:33,681 Is there that type of action 742 00:39:33,729 --> 00:39:37,585 version, or is that something 743 00:39:37,641 --> 00:39:38,065 the app? 744 00:39:38,121 --> 00:39:43,393 Only anyone who has an app in 745 00:39:43,465 --> 00:39:46,593 is going to have things like 746 00:39:46,625 --> 00:39:47,753 to the existing government. 747 00:39:47,865 --> 00:39:49,401 ChatGPT has the equivalent. 748 00:39:49,449 --> 00:39:51,481 Every app in the App Store has 749 00:39:51,529 --> 00:39:54,037 There's content moderation 750 00:39:55,857 --> 00:39:57,017 You don't have to use the app. 751 00:39:57,057 --> 00:39:58,473 You can take the underlying model. 752 00:39:58,505 --> 00:40:02,937 And companies like Perplexity 753 00:40:02,977 --> 00:40:06,313 only deploy the underlying 754 00:40:06,345 --> 00:40:09,449 have the aggressive content 755 00:40:09,633 --> 00:40:13,193 things it was trained on and 756 00:40:13,225 --> 00:40:13,865 or overridden. 757 00:40:13,881 --> 00:40:16,903 And I saw something like 758 00:40:16,935 --> 00:40:19,351 where they actually, like they 759 00:40:19,359 --> 00:40:20,215 remove some of that. 760 00:40:20,271 --> 00:40:24,199 They did something where if 761 00:40:24,223 --> 00:40:27,127 about Tiananmen or any of 762 00:40:27,167 --> 00:40:28,455 gives you straight answers. 763 00:40:28,551 --> 00:40:30,999 Now, does it give you straight 764 00:40:31,023 --> 00:40:32,487 stuff that they might want you 765 00:40:32,527 --> 00:40:35,799 Like they're a US like every 766 00:40:35,823 --> 00:40:37,159 going to have some level of that. 767 00:40:37,263 --> 00:40:40,343 And then the question is, do 768 00:40:40,375 --> 00:40:43,059 model weight so you can put it 769 00:40:43,183 --> 00:40:46,091 where people around the globe 770 00:40:46,179 --> 00:40:48,379 new technology innovation 771 00:40:48,563 --> 00:40:49,643 I think that's beneficial. 772 00:40:49,675 --> 00:40:53,099 I don't think it's beneficial 773 00:40:53,163 --> 00:40:55,247 dominant edge over everything else. 774 00:40:56,067 --> 00:40:59,099 You know, hopefully everyone 775 00:40:59,243 --> 00:41:02,491 more or less, and they're just 776 00:41:02,659 --> 00:41:03,931 I don't know, maybe. 777 00:41:03,979 --> 00:41:05,051 Maybe we need like a. 778 00:41:05,139 --> 00:41:07,371 An AI version of Mutually 779 00:41:07,419 --> 00:41:10,531 Like, everyone's got the 780 00:41:10,699 --> 00:41:13,651 Everyone, Everyone, including 781 00:41:13,699 --> 00:41:16,835 because we've all got really 782 00:41:16,851 --> 00:41:17,187 each other. 783 00:41:17,227 --> 00:41:17,539 I don't know. 784 00:41:17,563 --> 00:41:18,451 Yeah, yeah. 785 00:41:18,579 --> 00:41:23,043 So I want to turn to 786 00:41:23,075 --> 00:41:24,967 a little bit more before we 787 00:41:25,307 --> 00:41:29,667 Just first of all, speak to, 788 00:41:29,707 --> 00:41:29,907 this. 789 00:41:29,947 --> 00:41:32,739 Is it primarily because it's 790 00:41:32,763 --> 00:41:36,739 additional benefits to Bitcoin 791 00:41:36,763 --> 00:41:40,765 ways that you've seen that 792 00:41:40,821 --> 00:41:42,377 open agents and other companies? 793 00:41:42,917 --> 00:41:45,981 Yeah, it's A step one is 794 00:41:46,029 --> 00:41:46,617 value. 795 00:41:47,557 --> 00:41:49,485 What are they going to be 796 00:41:49,541 --> 00:41:51,457 Are they going to have their 797 00:41:52,117 --> 00:41:52,621 Maybe. 798 00:41:52,669 --> 00:41:55,437 I'm sure there's a company or 799 00:41:55,477 --> 00:41:56,013 own bank accounts. 800 00:41:56,045 --> 00:41:57,901 That sounds horrible to me. 801 00:41:58,069 --> 00:42:01,373 These are Internet native 802 00:42:01,405 --> 00:42:03,205 They should have Internet 803 00:42:03,301 --> 00:42:04,777 We have that with Bitcoin. 804 00:42:05,357 --> 00:42:08,181 Are agents going to be 805 00:42:08,229 --> 00:42:08,581 Chuck E. 806 00:42:08,589 --> 00:42:09,765 Cheese token of the day? 807 00:42:09,901 --> 00:42:10,597 Probably not. 808 00:42:10,637 --> 00:42:12,709 Even though there's a whole 809 00:42:12,733 --> 00:42:15,173 hard on that, I just 810 00:42:15,245 --> 00:42:19,797 I think agents like people 811 00:42:19,837 --> 00:42:24,101 paid in the hardest asset, the 812 00:42:24,109 --> 00:42:28,485 Cheese token or a devaluing 813 00:42:28,661 --> 00:42:32,005 And regardless of whether 814 00:42:32,061 --> 00:42:35,825 or Bitcoin the Rails where you 815 00:42:35,841 --> 00:42:39,089 and Light Spark building sort 816 00:42:39,113 --> 00:42:40,753 Lightning network as transport. 817 00:42:40,865 --> 00:42:44,785 So there I, you can envision 818 00:42:44,841 --> 00:42:47,905 Bitcoin based assets like 819 00:42:47,921 --> 00:42:48,913 by agents. 820 00:42:49,105 --> 00:42:51,649 And this is something that I, 821 00:42:51,673 --> 00:42:56,449 of full range of Bitcoin based 822 00:42:56,473 --> 00:42:58,193 easily traded by agents. 823 00:42:58,305 --> 00:43:00,207 But it's got to be that. 824 00:43:00,247 --> 00:43:02,559 It's got to use the Lightning 825 00:43:02,583 --> 00:43:06,319 are instant and Internet 826 00:43:06,343 --> 00:43:07,535 open to all people. 827 00:43:07,591 --> 00:43:10,799 Like that's going to bring the 828 00:43:10,823 --> 00:43:11,007 zero. 829 00:43:11,047 --> 00:43:14,047 And so I think fundamentally 830 00:43:14,087 --> 00:43:15,519 be a large driver. 831 00:43:15,583 --> 00:43:17,343 I think of Bitcoin adoption. 832 00:43:17,375 --> 00:43:20,187 If you want to participate 833 00:43:20,487 --> 00:43:23,679 or in the agent economy, like 834 00:43:23,743 --> 00:43:26,079 want your Bitcoin wallet, 835 00:43:26,103 --> 00:43:29,383 but we're going to charge you 836 00:43:29,415 --> 00:43:30,187 freer. 837 00:43:31,087 --> 00:43:35,399 And so that that 838 00:43:35,463 --> 00:43:39,591 consensus that Bitcoin is the 839 00:43:39,679 --> 00:43:45,175 any company that's building 840 00:43:45,231 --> 00:43:46,455 default interoperable. 841 00:43:46,551 --> 00:43:49,767 Like I can buy stuff from them 842 00:43:49,887 --> 00:43:52,231 And then the other piece is 843 00:43:52,399 --> 00:43:56,375 They're starting to be open 844 00:43:56,391 --> 00:43:59,335 like Anthropic, you know, hats 845 00:43:59,391 --> 00:44:00,399 positive thing. 846 00:44:00,543 --> 00:44:03,151 For open protocols, they 847 00:44:03,199 --> 00:44:07,215 Context Protocol that people 848 00:44:07,311 --> 00:44:09,707 agents with a way to consume services. 849 00:44:10,567 --> 00:44:12,047 You know, a good start. 850 00:44:12,167 --> 00:44:17,391 But fundamentally I think if 851 00:44:17,399 --> 00:44:20,383 same language such that 852 00:44:20,455 --> 00:44:25,775 kind of global liquidity pool 853 00:44:25,791 --> 00:44:26,591 can draw on. 854 00:44:26,679 --> 00:44:29,583 And okay, this data source 855 00:44:29,615 --> 00:44:31,567 or this service will cost me a 856 00:44:31,607 --> 00:44:35,349 But there's no reason why 857 00:44:35,413 --> 00:44:39,429 decentralized registries of 858 00:44:39,453 --> 00:44:39,637 things. 859 00:44:39,677 --> 00:44:44,757 And I'd say that's the, the 860 00:44:44,837 --> 00:44:49,429 that's happened so far between 861 00:44:49,533 --> 00:44:52,981 building on Bitcoin and AI are 862 00:44:52,989 --> 00:44:56,149 Bitcoin and AI, which is okay, 863 00:44:56,173 --> 00:44:58,057 there should be this shared registry. 864 00:44:58,487 --> 00:45:01,327 You know, we've got some 865 00:45:01,367 --> 00:45:04,543 L402 piece that connects all 866 00:45:04,615 --> 00:45:06,991 Some people are building more 867 00:45:06,999 --> 00:45:07,983 the APIs. 868 00:45:08,175 --> 00:45:10,239 I'm writing some like Noster specifications. 869 00:45:10,303 --> 00:45:13,743 I can kind of tie all this 870 00:45:13,775 --> 00:45:15,615 for the, for the data communication. 871 00:45:15,711 --> 00:45:18,159 And it's just everyone's kind 872 00:45:18,183 --> 00:45:21,119 all have incentive to kind of 873 00:45:21,143 --> 00:45:27,417 have 2, 3, 4, 5 of the leading 874 00:45:27,457 --> 00:45:31,593 language, participating in a 875 00:45:31,625 --> 00:45:33,705 of startups is going to want 876 00:45:33,761 --> 00:45:36,169 So we're going to be building 877 00:45:36,313 --> 00:45:38,601 Is that going to happen from 878 00:45:38,609 --> 00:45:40,393 their own incentive and no 879 00:45:40,425 --> 00:45:40,889 Probably not. 880 00:45:40,913 --> 00:45:43,209 Is it going to happen from 881 00:45:43,233 --> 00:45:44,793 own token and no incentive to cooperate? 882 00:45:44,825 --> 00:45:45,721 Probably not. 883 00:45:45,889 --> 00:45:49,977 I think you're going to see 884 00:45:50,137 --> 00:45:54,057 you know, ecosystem evolve 885 00:45:54,177 --> 00:45:54,745 12 months. 886 00:45:54,801 --> 00:45:57,129 Particularly as, and this is 887 00:45:57,153 --> 00:45:59,737 is like what is the revenue source? 888 00:45:59,817 --> 00:46:02,681 What is the thing that people 889 00:46:02,689 --> 00:46:04,681 we get real commerce happening. 890 00:46:04,809 --> 00:46:09,705 That is our initial focus on 891 00:46:09,721 --> 00:46:11,993 just a problem that I 892 00:46:12,025 --> 00:46:16,489 for 30 years and the bulk of 893 00:46:16,513 --> 00:46:17,477 software development. 894 00:46:17,937 --> 00:46:21,317 And that's what I've been Kind 895 00:46:21,357 --> 00:46:27,733 18 months is how can we build 896 00:46:27,765 --> 00:46:31,093 productivity but maximize like 897 00:46:31,125 --> 00:46:34,261 And going from 0 to 1 from 898 00:46:34,269 --> 00:46:36,217 product that I can test in the marketplace. 899 00:46:36,557 --> 00:46:42,421 You know, to be able to bring 900 00:46:42,429 --> 00:46:45,509 absolute maximum is going to 901 00:46:45,533 --> 00:46:47,601 anyone building, building in 902 00:46:47,749 --> 00:46:51,273 So once we have the kind of 903 00:46:51,345 --> 00:46:54,905 with, early customers that we 904 00:46:54,921 --> 00:46:56,633 us, you know, a few hundred 905 00:46:56,665 --> 00:47:00,713 per month to kind of get a 906 00:47:00,745 --> 00:47:03,801 that with these coding agents, 907 00:47:03,809 --> 00:47:05,357 into more of a marketplace. 908 00:47:06,417 --> 00:47:09,977 Down the road, we do hope to 909 00:47:10,017 --> 00:47:12,969 stop shop for AI agents where 910 00:47:12,993 --> 00:47:15,149 of the like underlying stuff, 911 00:47:15,313 --> 00:47:16,581 It's just a place you go. 912 00:47:16,669 --> 00:47:19,381 You can slap down the credit 913 00:47:19,389 --> 00:47:23,297 our sales team, whatever that 914 00:47:24,077 --> 00:47:27,605 and just have all of the best 915 00:47:27,701 --> 00:47:30,869 For most people, you know, 916 00:47:30,893 --> 00:47:34,821 want to have 8 billion people 917 00:47:34,869 --> 00:47:37,957 where they just open it up, 918 00:47:37,997 --> 00:47:40,261 like literally magic happens 919 00:47:40,269 --> 00:47:41,081 the background. 920 00:47:41,269 --> 00:47:42,209 Very cool. 921 00:47:42,353 --> 00:47:44,561 Well, any final thoughts you 922 00:47:44,569 --> 00:47:47,057 finish up today, as well as 923 00:47:47,097 --> 00:47:50,289 to give open agents a try or 924 00:47:50,473 --> 00:47:51,825 I'd say, please. 925 00:47:51,881 --> 00:47:53,345 We're very active on x. 926 00:47:53,481 --> 00:47:55,377 Follow us OpenAgents Inc. 927 00:47:55,417 --> 00:47:56,225 Is the Twitter. 928 00:47:56,321 --> 00:47:59,441 You can go to OpenAgents.com 929 00:47:59,449 --> 00:48:01,713 we're building as well as 930 00:48:01,745 --> 00:48:03,397 of our mobile app called Onyx. 931 00:48:03,817 --> 00:48:06,529 And then in the next week or 932 00:48:06,553 --> 00:48:10,097 the new version of our kind of 933 00:48:10,137 --> 00:48:14,517 to be able to interact with 934 00:48:14,937 --> 00:48:18,017 If you are a business owner 935 00:48:18,057 --> 00:48:20,449 agents into your business, 936 00:48:20,473 --> 00:48:21,121 personally. 937 00:48:21,249 --> 00:48:25,713 You can contact us through the 938 00:48:25,905 --> 00:48:26,305 Great. 939 00:48:26,361 --> 00:48:27,889 Christopher, thank you so much 940 00:48:27,913 --> 00:48:29,697 It's been a pleasure, Josh, 941 00:48:29,817 --> 00:48:30,833 Well friends, it's a wrap. 942 00:48:30,865 --> 00:48:34,337 Thanks so much for listening 943 00:48:34,417 --> 00:48:34,921 show. 944 00:48:35,049 --> 00:48:36,713 If you want to reach out to 945 00:48:36,745 --> 00:48:39,449 You can find those links down 946 00:48:39,473 --> 00:48:42,169 Coding agents sounds 947 00:48:42,193 --> 00:48:42,537 as well. 948 00:48:42,577 --> 00:48:45,897 As always, keep building, keep 949 00:48:45,937 --> 00:48:47,625 living and leading. 950 00:48:47,721 --> 00:48:48,357 Well. 951 00:48:53,137 --> 00:48:55,769 Thanks to those who have been 952 00:48:55,793 --> 00:48:58,793 recent days, the boost of the 953 00:48:58,865 --> 00:49:00,953 a comment about last week's 954 00:49:00,985 --> 00:49:02,169 Roger Mochegemba. 955 00:49:02,233 --> 00:49:04,761 He said great conversation to 956 00:49:04,809 --> 00:49:06,417 Bitcoin into healthcare. 957 00:49:06,537 --> 00:49:07,841 Loved hearing my client Dr. 958 00:49:07,889 --> 00:49:11,233 Roger explain the synergy 959 00:49:11,265 --> 00:49:12,353 and bitcoin. 960 00:49:12,465 --> 00:49:15,809 He was early to telemedicine, 961 00:49:15,873 --> 00:49:18,801 If you're around San Antonio 962 00:49:18,889 --> 00:49:21,393 Shout out for making it easy 963 00:49:21,425 --> 00:49:23,329 Bitcoin and the Lightning network. 964 00:49:23,433 --> 00:49:25,809 I appreciate the SATs, John, 965 00:49:25,833 --> 00:49:26,337 do as well. 966 00:49:26,377 --> 00:49:29,553 And if you also would like to 967 00:49:29,585 --> 00:49:32,961 on Fountain and either stream 968 00:49:33,009 --> 00:49:35,521 And if you send a boost with a 969 00:49:35,529 --> 00:49:35,737 the show.