Welcome to the Bitcoin
strategies for using bitcoin
I'm your host, Josh Friedman,
to the show, you will
We changed the podcast name
The primary reason for this is
to the show and friends of
word bitcoinization.
And I knew that if bitcoiners
a long time were not able to
other people who are not yet
in understanding and exploring
be even less likely to
So instead of trying to be
bitcoinization, which of
I've decided to go with the
Hopefully this will be a lot
person and hopefully more
see the opportunity for using
Practically speaking, this
However, it worked out that
coincide with a new type of
every couple of weeks.
What I'll be doing every
couple of other people and
that have happened in and
business.
I'll be interested to hear
of format, but I think it will
and an opportunity to have a
topics discussed on the show.
So today, John Gordon and Trey
on this podcast multiple
They'll introduce themselves a
and we're going to get to that
All right, guys, welcome to
a roundup episode of things
to the world of bitcoin and
Trey Sellers is here.
John Gordon as well.
Listeners to the podcast will
episodes, but in case you
going to have them introduce themselves.
So, Trey, if you would.
And then, John, can you share
involved with, what you're
Yeah, thanks.
I'm excited for, for this new
more into bitcoin what's going
I'm VP of Sales at Unchained.
We provide Bitcoin native
on collaborative custody as
of everything that we do and
that are built around that.
Right.
So you can buy and sell
We do commercial Bitcoin
We have IRAs for individuals
We'll be rolling out a whole
services that kind of bridge
as we make this progression
bitcoinization.
Yeah, excited to be here.
Thanks for having me Josh.
And thrilled to be joining you
Trey.
I've been a happy on chain
off some of my clients to you
And my background is in the
of Satoshi Health Advisors, a
helping companies integrate a
particularly in the healthcare industry.
Working a lot with doctors,
and others to understand
treasury and then marketing,
to to build their business and
Bitcoin can have across
value now to medium of exchange.
And eventually I think we'll
now while we're in that in
adopted it really introduces a
also greenfield approach to
money of Bitcoin into businesses.
Particularly in an industry
slow to move yet has
year.
I'm going to like immediately
John just said something that
last like week or so which is
actually precedes meeting
It's almost like this, this
where people start to
opportunity cost to not
Whether you're an individual
opportunity cost for not
recognize that.
We all see that which is why
Bitcoin in payment for goods
And so I think like as
opportunity cost in their own
terms of a unit of account
would be able to stack or how
not actually holding as much
And that can lead to asking
to pay them in Bitcoin, which
way of acquiring Bitcoin and
sheet.
And now once you start
that really is a unit of
a forcing function for that
So I don't know if you guys
sorry, sorry to derail the conversation.
Three minutes in, right?
No, so I think, I think that
what am I missing out on?
And they start to take things
bitcoin.
All three of us have had that
I'm probably the last one to
But you know, I think there
And John, if you want to
the way as well, that would be great.
But a couple of things that I
and help people to see that
if they don't go ahead and
bitcoin reserve.
I don't know if you guys have
I feel like it's been kind of
But I think it'd be important
thoughts, maybe some
it as well as what you might
You may or may not want them
Different bitcoiners had
But I think talking, you know,
the strategic bitcoin reserve
recent proposal for bit bonds
Institute.
So I'm just going to open that
are.
Just real quick for the bit
listening haven't had a chance
The idea is that there would
dollars maybe of bonds would
to purchase bitcoin.
And I think it would be a 4.5%
remaining upside of whatever
And this would be something
hopefully to US citizens.
It would give them some
to the same degree as if
might lead people to think,
buy bitcoin and get a ton of upside?
So those are a couple of
interesting to talk about just
Yeah, I can jump in.
I think is incredibly exciting
executive order in the United
for a lot of businesses and
their own bitcoin strategy.
Now we thought that and for
was that governments were
And clearly now the pendulum
are potentially going to be in
And we know there's only going
We know the US right now is
but has a waning control over
And so as a way to address the
bitbonds is a great idea.
And buying bitcoin as a
around moving seized bitcoin
And I think some of the exact
remains to be seen.
But I think the movements in
stone and have a lot of
how can we hold bitcoin in a
What does multisig look like?
I mean, this introduces a
perspective.
But it's incredibly exciting
I'm here in Costa Rica and I
I was there at the end of 2021
we thought it would be maybe
move quickly and start
their treasury and their
using their own resources.
And while we've seen that to
move by the US it just shows
and others are going to have
This is really the game, the
And so I think individuals and
and move even quicker than
But the fact of the simple, as
really innovative models such
opportunity for policymakers
and then make it a much more
to adopt.
And I think we've swung from,
bitcoin as a business to the
you're going to be left behind.
And we have the big boys doing
And now, you know, each
choice for themselves.
Yeah, clearly.
I think the strategic Bitcoin
I actually don't really care,
the government holds Bitcoin
from a game theory
you need to be holding Bitcoin.
And so for, if we realize that
that that is not limited to
going to bleed into
and that kind of thing.
So it makes sense that they
something like the bit bonds.
I think there's not really a
details of what was being
there.
The idea is though, that you
always needs to raise money
take some portion of that,
thereby provide upside to the
price appreciation that we all
these treasury bonds, thereby
lower the interest rate on a
And by doing so it allows for
us to slow the bleed
amount of debt that's being
that is kind of sucking up all
from tax revenue and that kind
Right.
The budget is just kind of
as rates have risen over the
And so somehow that needs to
of control.
And so this is a way to really
for what needs to be adopted
us a mechanism to lower
the private economy by the way.
Right.
Like a lower.
So many things in the private
yields.
And so if you're able to lower
it's going to allow for
around the country, it's going
for all kinds of debt that's
of a tailwind to the global
right.
So there's all kinds of
into there.
We don't need to go into the
1% or are they going to buy
That doesn't really matter.
I feel like that'll all be
come to market.
And then the last thing to say
is this is the time to do it.
All the tailwinds are behind it.
This administration is very
like that.
I don't think you're going to
soon if it's not from this administration.
So if not now, it's going to
Well, the last time I saw both
in Nashville.
Trey, one of the things you
were looking forward to
year or two and you had a
about.
So maybe if you could bring up
those a little bit today as well.
Yeah, well, the first, I think
allows for banks to custody
The banks will be coming over
Right.
So Unchained has for a very
We focus on commercial bitcoin
And so, you know, we're
who have that bitcoin on their
or other business related purchases.
But there's a much broader
to liquidity across the
or businesses or larger
Right.
And so as the banks who have
part of this whole process
it's going to force down
a lot more interesting Access
And when you have credit
creates a flywheel effect in
as collateral.
As banks value it more highly,
to allow for higher loan to
you know, margin call type situations.
It's just going to be
I mean even now, like you
banks.
Could you go in, walk in the
allocated and I need to get a
to buy.
And they're like, okay, show
Well, it's 100% Bitcoin.
We value that as zero.
Right?
Like that's been the
got a large amount of money in
They go and try to get like
recognize that asset.
Well, that is definitely changing.
And so we're going to start to
rates in terms of bitcoin
But also just like the flavor
that are out there coming from
institutions, maybe coming
as well.
There's so many businesses out
as part of their flows.
And if bitcoin is able to seep
to solidify it as this
more deeply into the financial
from the point of view of
so much power and so much
the outcomes of not only the
front and that kind of thing.
Is it in any way intimidating
from an unchained perspective
built that, that niche in the
be and where you can continue
I think we're pretty safe for now.
I think it's going to take a
They're very slow.
I used to work for a bank for
so I know how they operate.
I'm not worried about them
I'm also not really worried
to access these bitcoin
layer that Unchained really
Right.
Like we're providing liquidity
their bitcoin and allowing
custody vault so that they can
is there purely as collateral
commingled or moved or
Like, we don't rehypothecate.
We, you know, the banks don't
They're not going to let you
And so some people don't care
of people and the further and
rabbit hole, the more and more
So I think like the ocean
to grow and thrive in that
unquote competition coming in
And that extra capital
bring down the interest rates
which is going to attract even
who already have a large stack
Yeah, well, at one time on a
co founder of Square, who's
the Innovation Stack and he
to beat Amazon at their own
there, you copy someone's
you basically destroy them.
And he said each time you add
unique thing you bring to the
for competition to beat you out.
And Unchained and so many
been in the space and have
stake out their territory.
And I'm glad to see that
bitcoin first or bitcoin only
or buying my bitcoin through a
Yeah, look, there's going to
the bitcoin world and people
of this growing asset, like
But my view is rising tide
competitive and have a really
approach collaborative
else that we do.
Yeah, I definitely echo that sentiment.
I mean bitcoin is pristine collateral.
So as much as it's being used
And that fact is being
it's perfectly scarce.
We can hold it in different
let us do, but is technically possible.
That's the first mover advantage.
And that's what Unchained has
custody perspective and I
cost of borrowing for
who have new ideas, who want
also want to go and buy a
as well.
And as millennials, it's not
anything, is perfect for that
that home as a starter home.
And now we have more
third, fourth homes, you know,
I think that yeah, more rising
We know the more individuals
bitcoin network benefits all
should bring down costs,
So as you mentioned, both from
that bitcoin recognized when
Businesses also until those
perspective, weren't able to
only to the downside instead
So I think a lot of those
time to impact, but are going
offering more unique offerings.
And I think as Andrew Hones
see with battery finance and
know what holding bitcoin for
And rather than having that
okay, now we introduce bitcoin
So I definitely agree that the
but they're coming.
And so really being able to
and the value of also holding
your journey, I mean, that's
so well and something that
And of course the banks and
like a custodia bank from
it would be, it would be great
as we see fully reserved
are not rehypothecating
money at the bedrock of a lot
of the ever expanding fiat credit.
And it's going to be
as bitcoin continues to be a
taking it on board.
But that's where I think again
can, can still take the lead
that Unchain's had on the
So it would be great to see
put that bitcoin to work in a
through a loan.
Well, the banks are, I mean
of is an oxymoron at this
works.
That kind of like, like kills
So I don't know that we'll see
But like maybe they can shore
bit more by integrating
they do things and maybe
We'll have to see like what
like because that's really
Although you know we see like
brought live their $2 billion
Bitcoin.
I imagine that their first
institutions, maybe the
the public bitcoin miners.
But you know, they are
the traditional finance world,
And so them kind of going out
lending helps to open the door
institutions.
Not to mention the fact that
at Kenner Fitzgerald, is
the Trump administration at
As part of the cabinet.
So that's really interesting.
Another interesting point on
Fold, right.
They have been talking and I
with Fold customers like
to being reliant on a debit
when you are trying to spend
I think this is going to be
excited to get my hands on
around with it a little bit.
And Fold recently went public
is focused on holding
that have bitcoin on their
So we start to see all of
as the bitcoin and traditional
together.
Yep.
And I'm interested to see how
bold bitcoin is another one
beta, but you basically have
against.
And I'm not sure if Fold has
yet.
Have either of you heard that?
I believe it's a similar
on the market now.
Like kind of 2% SATs back on
Pretty much.
Maybe there will be some
like we see in traditional
kind of the.
The essence of it.
Yeah, I need to dig into the
or uncollateralized?
I can't remember.
I feel like I read their
or two ago, but to be honest,
I'll have to dig into that.
We can talk about the next time.
Now, Trey, you may have some
You just mentioned The Canter Fitzgerald.
$2 billion connected to financing.
I don't know exactly what
I'm guessing that's for institutions.
It seems like $2 billion.
It sounds ridiculous to say
the bucket.
But do you know exactly or at
are for that 2 billion?
I don't know.
I don't have inside information.
But my guess is just being
traditional finance world that
of the larger players out
marathons and you know, some
companies that have bitcoin on
are looking to borrow against
I don't know if they're going
role of just like bitcoin back
of bitcoin for any other purposes.
That's where we start to get
caused a lot of angst back in
in that direction or not.
But you know, I feel like when
bitcoin more into their normal
going to be playing around
a lot of people into trouble.
Now they have much deeper
or explicit government backing.
So maybe that changes the game
But in terms of Cantor's, you
billion, I don't have any
it's going to be towards some
who, who need some capital
sheet and they're trying to
that asset that's sitting there.
So John, in our pre recording
Scientific and of course Eric
has just gone you know, all in
of people in the bitcoin
Scientific.
I'm curious if you knew about
they started buying bitcoin,
in the healthcare industry
maybe also connected to that.
From your work with
healthcare space, why do you
or connection to Bitcoin?
Yeah, starting with Semler.
I hadn't heard of them.
They were working in the
But it's a very, there's many,
market that is healthcare, you
I did work at a medical device
which can be some interesting
But you know Semler I think
really showing the playbook
lines of making a splash in as
sheet buy from a corporate
going to see more companies as
launching a way to kind of own
And then from the cancer
get, I could get a loan down
So there's going to be
holding Bitcoin on the balance sheet.
So similar holding 31 over
and over almost $300 million
in the last recording, really
if you are cash flow positive
is, if it's selling medical
have that positive cash flow
business intelligence
of that cash flow, put it into
creative ways to buy bitcoin
credit and equity as well as
I think that they're really
perspective.
You know, I've been really
is ripe for bitcoin to enter
up 20% of the economy, a
and half of that's waste.
The whole industry, whether
big insurance or big pharma or
middlemen along different lines.
Certainly from a payment
medical record perspective,
the money flows, it tends to
And so where I've started and
first is going to be companies
understand bitcoin and can
But even more so from a
who understand bitcoin and
business models that align
So for example, direct primary
a few clients.
A couple of them have been on
into this a little bit further.
But both Dr.
Roger Mosemba in San Antonio,
Dr.
Levitan in Illinois, they're
their concierge model.
And they're not to some
insurance or that's a very
an add on.
But for the most part it's
that are getting, they're
they can say, hey, I can spend
part payment comes from a
And then now I accept that
sheet and it can strengthen my
and ultimately send a signal
be practicing in a different
your health and understanding
cutter approach and really
So I think there's a lot of
healthcare businesses.
But we're not going to see,
lot of cash sitting on balance
out there like the HCAs of the
systems publicly traded that
have pretty complex balance sheets.
They could start with just
You know, that's the first
into their full payment stack.
But it's going to take time.
And you'll also see more
side and health brands and
Tropical Oasis, who you had on
And really diving into how
directly lower their own
So there's a reason for them
perspective, let alone the
But they can also go out and
and hold their bitcoin
Or eventually for maybe you
a collaborative custody model
Right.
And you can really split that
custodian.
But you now have a way to each
So I think we'll where I've
businesses and then from a
have the sellers of the world.
There are so many more
and you see some going in the
Right.
Walgreens is now going back
for years on the public market.
Maybe someone like Walgreens
that shift back as they get
and get bought, but come into
Again.
So as we see these shifts back
markets haven't been kind to
what bitcoin can do and I
Bitcoin and the conferences
last few years has focused so
and energy.
These are of course, the
Health was always coming from
in health economics and
models, an area that I think
And so we're really just at
out.
And so it's always great to
who are looking at introducing
With bitcoin and health, I
Businesses to begin to have a
the balance sheet, there needs
within the like Business
treasurer, CFO type community,
like traditionally speaking,
let's say the balance sheet
that should be producing any
Right.
It should be there as a
business, but it should not be
its own.
And, and that's been kind of
school teaches, you know, how
It certainly is how Wall
companies and their balance
cash flows and all that stuff.
It kind of throws their models
extra variable of a volatile
to shareholders and going to
the business.
And so my personal view is
for people to start to wrap
approach to viewing the
actually help the, the
to just being a facilitation
generating part of the
generate that growth.
We almost like until that time
we need these kind of
Bitcoin to find themselves in
unique scenarios, like a
be a forcing function on this
that this can actually be
We just haven't gotten there yet.
I think we're still a few
progress into Bitcoin, being
returns of, of a stock or a
We'll see.
Maybe I'm wrong on that.
I don't know.
What do you guys think?
If people are paying
it does juice a stock, it does
But it will take a while, I
it.
Fortunately, it doesn't have
We have strategy out there.
We have so many others who are
the market.
And I think it'll be
years that adding Bitcoin to
personal or as a business, is
As expected, we've hardly
we wanted to discuss.
But let's go ahead and maybe
iteration of this series.
Trey, if you would share with
up with you and Unchained.
And then John, if you would
Yeah, probably the easiest way
Go check out Unchained
remember there.
And if you're interested in
in a more fault tolerant way,
clients to really understand
and all of that.
One thing that I forgot to
to my other work, is that I am
that does some investments in
They got a good focus on like
are starting to foray into
So.
So I've been helping them
looks like.
And I also do a newsletter on
So if you're interested in
so go check that out as well.
Awesome.
And yeah, you can follow me on
go to my website satoshi
more.
Really working at the
and healthcare.
So happy to connect.
And you know, I think to your
it here, is that it's
and people in the right places.
And I think it's just some
to make the leap.
And a lot of that comes from
foundational level and how it
sovereignty over your own life
As you said, kind of
teaching.
We have to unlearn a lot of
or in grad school in the way
around finance and understand
principles perspective.
So really excited to be
and we can dive deeper into
help more business owners and
bitcoin to their own day to
Well guys, thank you so much
And your thoughts.
It's been great.
Love it.
Thanks Josh.
Thanks John.
Take care guys.
Well friends, it's a wrap.
Thanks so much for listening
If you want to reach out to
find those links down in the
feedback on this particular
We're going to get back to our
As always, keep building, keep growing.
Until next time, Keep living
Well, thanks to those who've
in the last few weeks.
It's been a minute, so I want
Thanks to Ezekiel no waste,
and AZA underscore 21M for
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That's John Gordon that you
He was responding to the
Ramsey from Tropical Oasis.
He said Great episode gents.
I really enjoyed working with
at Tropical Oasis.
A lot of insights packed here
and the benefits of liquid vitamins.
Get 15% sats back on your
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