1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:08,200 Welcome to the Bitcoin Playbook, where we discuss proven strategies for using Bitcoin 2 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:12,960 in your business. This week, we have another roundup episode with John Gordon and Trey 3 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:18,300 Sellers. We talk about Elon's new America party, the big, beautiful bill, and how you 4 00:00:18,300 --> 00:00:22,920 can now use Bitcoin to help you buy a house. Here are John and Trey. Gentlemen, welcome 5 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:26,520 to another roundup episode. This week, we got news that Elon Musk is starting a new 6 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:30,820 party called the America party. And he seems like he's interested in Bitcoin. We'll see about whether 7 00:00:30,820 --> 00:00:33,400 or not he follows through with that. He's called fiat hopeless when people have been asking him 8 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:37,260 about, you know, what, what role Bitcoin will play in this new party. But let's, let's have a little 9 00:00:37,260 --> 00:00:41,860 conversation to start off the podcast about Elon Musk, the America party and the role that Bitcoin 10 00:00:41,860 --> 00:00:45,600 can, and maybe what you think it will play in the future when it comes to political conversations. 11 00:00:46,160 --> 00:00:50,940 Well, I don't trust Elon at all when it comes to anything related to Bitcoin. I guess he has 12 00:00:50,940 --> 00:00:55,160 earned some stripes in that he hasn't sold all of the Bitcoin that he had bought for Tesla. And it 13 00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:59,340 sounded like they actually acquired a little bit more at some point in the past and maybe he has 14 00:00:59,340 --> 00:01:03,180 changed his mind but it does seem like he's got something to say about literally everything under 15 00:01:03,180 --> 00:01:07,660 the sun except for bitcoin so make of that what you will i don't understand it at all it plays 16 00:01:07,660 --> 00:01:12,420 perfectly into the narrative that he's kind of trying to construct around america's need for 17 00:01:12,420 --> 00:01:19,600 fiscal austerity and transparency and you know just changing the way that the old guard has run 18 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:24,940 things for so many decades and you would think that if you are challenging the two-party duopoly 19 00:01:24,940 --> 00:01:29,980 the two-party system, then you probably need to embrace something that challenges the underpinnings 20 00:01:29,980 --> 00:01:34,540 or the underflow of what funds those two-party system and really embrace the culture that Bitcoin 21 00:01:34,540 --> 00:01:38,120 brings, which is one that kind of carves its own path. And he's really going to have to carve his 22 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:41,720 own path because going against the two-party system is nearly impossible. I mean, it's codified 23 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:45,720 essentially that there's no way to really make too much headway or progress. The Libertarian Party 24 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:50,960 has been trying for years and years and years to no avail. And I think we're going to see the same 25 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:55,180 type of result coming from the America party that we saw coming from the efforts of Doge, 26 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:57,660 which was just hitting an absolute brick wall and a buzzsaw. 27 00:01:58,720 --> 00:01:59,400 You know, I don't know. 28 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:03,520 Maybe I'm just being very cynical here, but I just don't see anything lasting coming out 29 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:03,800 of this. 30 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:07,320 But at least it'll provide some fun things for us to talk about on a weekly basis. 31 00:02:07,700 --> 00:02:07,780 Sure. 32 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:09,500 John, are you any more optimistic or do you feel similarly? 33 00:02:09,900 --> 00:02:14,100 Yeah, I think having more voices and potential of a third party is definitely better than 34 00:02:14,100 --> 00:02:15,120 the two-party system we have now. 35 00:02:15,180 --> 00:02:17,560 But I agree with Trey that it remains to be seen how successful that can really be. 36 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:25,700 But given Elon's arsenal of businesses and X and being able to be really dominate a lot of the narrative, I think if anyone's going to be able to pull it off, it might be him. 37 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:34,280 And I think from a Bitcoin perspective, it's interesting to see that despite potential now challenges between the American Party and the Republican Party, you have two parties that have embraced Bitcoin or potentially will embrace Bitcoin. 38 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:37,760 As Elon said, fiat is hopeless. We'll see to the degree it's actually integrated in it. 39 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:44,660 And I think a lot of Democrats coming around to and realizing that they need to also be more open to Bitcoin if they want to turn things around in the next midterm elections. 40 00:02:44,780 --> 00:02:47,600 And that Bitcoiners continue to be a bigger and bigger, have a bigger seat at the table. 41 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:53,000 And in our vocal political advocacy group, as we saw, I was out in D.C. a couple weeks ago for the Bitcoin Policy Institute Summit. 42 00:02:53,180 --> 00:03:00,000 Over a thousand Bitcoiners advocating and talking about Bitcoin in business and as it relates to regulation, educating regulators and their policymakers from their states. 43 00:03:00,380 --> 00:03:04,800 So that type of grassroots movement, as you see with a whole host of different issues, Bitcoin matters the way it's regulated matters. 44 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:09,200 And so we'll see if Tesla was accepting Bitcoin directly for payment a few years ago. 45 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:11,940 They turned that off and said they'd turn it back on. 46 00:03:11,940 --> 00:03:14,040 If we saw more renewable mining, well, we have seen more renewable Bitcoin mining. 47 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:15,240 They haven't turned payments back on. 48 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:18,480 So certainly, I think remains to be seen how much they'd integrate Bitcoin. 49 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:20,840 And third parties have a challenging time. 50 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:21,960 And we get into the big, beautiful bill next. 51 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:23,720 But I think, as Lynn Alden says, nothing stops this train. 52 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:26,240 And we saw from either side, there's going to continue to be money printing, continue 53 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:28,560 to be an expansion on a fiscal side. 54 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:32,420 And as you said, Trey, running into a brick wall, the limited impact Doge was able to make 55 00:03:32,420 --> 00:03:35,280 or they really dug in and I think found a lot early on. 56 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:38,040 But we saw that even with those potentially hundreds of billions of gains, 57 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:40,680 it's still dropping the bucket to the trillions in debt that we're facing as a country. 58 00:03:41,020 --> 00:03:45,860 Yeah, all those same things were said about Elon and that group of people in Vivek Ramaswamy 59 00:03:45,860 --> 00:03:48,700 about like, oh, if anybody's going to be able to do it, these are the guys, right? 60 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:53,260 Like this is the guy you want in charge of eliminating waste, fraud, and abuse in the federal government. 61 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:54,860 And he just got basically nowhere. 62 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:57,000 I mean, there was not even like a scratch or a dent on the surface. 63 00:03:57,100 --> 00:03:59,120 There was a whole lot of like hoopla as you're referring to up front. 64 00:03:59,700 --> 00:04:01,000 A lot of that seemed to be inflated. 65 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:12,260 And the overall impact of all this is that they just passed a bill that raises the debt ceiling by $5 trillion, which we all know that the debt ceiling is kind of a facade and, you know, not actually meaningful in any real way anyway. 66 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:13,480 So that was always going to be raised. 67 00:04:13,740 --> 00:04:19,460 But it is a pretty big symbol of exactly just how unstoppable that train actually is. 68 00:04:19,780 --> 00:04:20,860 You know, Josh, what do you think? 69 00:04:20,900 --> 00:04:24,220 Like, do you think that they're going to make any meaningful impact with the America Party? 70 00:04:24,340 --> 00:04:28,920 Do you think that, like, Bitcoin is going to continue to be roped into these political conversations that we're having? 71 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:31,960 I mean, it definitely seems like there's an in everywhere for Bitcoin as part of the conversation. 72 00:04:32,300 --> 00:04:34,820 The short answer is no, I don't think the American Party or the America Party will go anywhere. 73 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:40,440 But that said, I think that Elon is smarter now about how how much the government relies on status quo than he was before. 74 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:44,760 I think a lot of us who maybe were a little more optimistic are a little wiser. 75 00:04:45,540 --> 00:04:48,240 So we'll see what happens. I think that there's some potential for sure. 76 00:04:48,620 --> 00:04:52,660 As far as getting maybe a few people in. I wonder, for instance, if Thomas Massey will get connected with Elon. 77 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:58,100 It seems like, you know, depending on who you are in the Republican Party, Thomas Massey seems to always be on the outside. 78 00:04:58,100 --> 00:05:00,080 I think he's one of the most valuable members of Congress that we have. 79 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:11,300 But I can see someone like him or in kind of a similar situation where you're a little bit on the outside, being interested in kind of teaming up with Elon potentially to hopefully bring some more fiscal conservatism into the government. 80 00:05:11,620 --> 00:05:12,820 I don't know if that will happen or not. 81 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:18,260 It also seems like Elon has the opportunity to incorporate Bitcoin into a variety of different things that he's involved with. 82 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:21,380 And he has at times, but not ever to the level where he really could have. 83 00:05:21,380 --> 00:05:28,280 So it does seem like if he is talking about Bitcoin, it might just be lip service and not anything that meaningful. 84 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:29,900 So it doesn't really talk about it, right? 85 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:34,160 Like it was a surprise to everybody over the past week or yesterday or whenever it was. 86 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:36,560 He was talking about Fiat is hopeless in response to a question about Bitcoin. 87 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:46,560 But there's been no mention of Bitcoin basically at all from him since back in 2020 or whenever it was that he first adopted it as part of Tesla's balance sheet. 88 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:50,760 And so, you know, it's really like so confounding to me. 89 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:52,060 I don't really understand it. 90 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:52,680 I really don't. 91 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:54,000 Is it just trolling with Dogecoin? 92 00:05:54,140 --> 00:05:55,020 Like it's ridiculous. 93 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:57,340 There's some kind of strange thing. 94 00:05:57,440 --> 00:05:58,880 Like I said, he's got an opinion 95 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:00,860 about literally everything except for Bitcoin. 96 00:06:01,140 --> 00:06:02,240 If there were an opportunity 97 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:03,800 to really start a strong third party, 98 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:05,900 it would be essentially the Orange Party, right? 99 00:06:05,980 --> 00:06:07,160 People who are Bitcoiners 100 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:08,760 and who care more about sound money 101 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:09,960 and the good that they believe 102 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:10,640 that will bring to the world. 103 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:13,080 And it seems like if you want to create a third party, 104 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:13,520 that's the way to go. 105 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:14,760 So I think Elon might see that 106 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:16,760 and he might start saying pro-Bitcoin things. 107 00:06:16,820 --> 00:06:17,240 But to your point, 108 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:18,260 he hasn't been talking about it. 109 00:06:18,300 --> 00:06:19,080 Moving forward, if he does, 110 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:19,800 Yeah. 111 00:06:19,940 --> 00:06:20,800 Can you trust it or not? 112 00:06:20,860 --> 00:06:23,220 Is he just trying to get a conversation going? 113 00:06:23,260 --> 00:06:23,760 Is he just trolling? 114 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:25,460 And that's the difficult thing about Elon Musk. 115 00:06:25,500 --> 00:06:27,860 You don't actually know what he thinks or what he believes, what he actually wants to 116 00:06:27,860 --> 00:06:28,000 do. 117 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:30,920 Is he saying something meaningful or is he just trying to get clicks and get people riled 118 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:31,120 up? 119 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:35,600 Yeah, there's definitely a strong precedent that was set in this last election with Trump 120 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:39,960 being elected with like kind of largely putting him over the edge by embracing Bitcoin and 121 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:43,700 crypto more broadly and getting all of this upswell of support coming from this group of 122 00:06:43,700 --> 00:06:48,320 passionate people like us who are, you know, kind of willing to support anybody who is 123 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:53,420 going to embrace bitcoin and the world that it represents so if he is smart about doing this you 124 00:06:53,420 --> 00:06:57,000 would think that he would embrace it but there's like technical and procedural issues to a new 125 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:01,660 party any party even if it is led by elon musk to making any kind of progress like you have to go 126 00:07:01,660 --> 00:07:04,840 state by state and get on the ballot just getting on the ballot costs hundreds of millions of dollars 127 00:07:04,840 --> 00:07:08,480 or whatever and all kinds of political lobbying and there's all kinds of procedural ways that 128 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:22,958 the democrats and republicans can stop that from happening um i got a buddy brian jackato who a election attorney so i be curious to to hear his thoughts on that um we should we should maybe bring him on to talk about it at some point but um it it definitely going to be an uphill battle for elon and i think he going to 129 00:07:22,958 --> 00:07:26,658 come out with another metaphorical black eye to go along with the one that he that he actually got 130 00:07:26,658 --> 00:07:31,378 who knows where that came from uh to go along with like the doge black eye that that he already 131 00:07:31,378 --> 00:07:34,038 walked away with and he's going to get even more jaded and then who knows who knows where it goes 132 00:07:34,038 --> 00:07:39,098 from there yep well so john just a second ago you talked about the big beautiful bill or maybe the 133 00:07:39,098 --> 00:07:40,698 The better term is the alleged big, beautiful bill. 134 00:07:41,258 --> 00:07:45,558 We were hopeful for a brief moment in time that it would strip away capital gains taxes 135 00:07:45,558 --> 00:07:47,898 for smaller purchases with Bitcoin. 136 00:07:47,998 --> 00:07:48,998 That didn't end up happening. 137 00:07:49,358 --> 00:07:52,618 But I'd love to hear your thoughts on the big, beautiful bill and anything else maybe 138 00:07:52,618 --> 00:07:54,638 that I'm missing because I wasn't paying too much attention to it in the last few days. 139 00:07:54,738 --> 00:07:56,318 You know, so much was changing all the time with it. 140 00:07:56,438 --> 00:07:58,058 Is there anything positive for Bitcoin in there? 141 00:07:58,538 --> 00:08:01,618 Should we hope that positive things come from the government when it comes to Bitcoin? 142 00:08:01,818 --> 00:08:06,058 A lot of people have been hopeful about the legislative changes that are more positive 143 00:08:06,058 --> 00:08:06,418 for Bitcoin. 144 00:08:06,418 --> 00:08:09,438 but it seems like we've kind of hit a wall, at least in recent days, as far as what the government's 145 00:08:09,438 --> 00:08:12,258 willing to do connected to Bitcoin. So any thoughts? Am I missing anything from the big, 146 00:08:12,358 --> 00:08:16,778 beautiful bill or was it a wash for Bitcoiners? I think even having the capital gains discussion 147 00:08:16,778 --> 00:08:19,358 on Bitcoin being a part of the conversation is really important. It's something Bitcoiners have 148 00:08:19,358 --> 00:08:22,298 talked about for years and I think it's still a key friction point for many people when it comes to 149 00:08:22,298 --> 00:08:27,978 spending their Bitcoin in the US or as an American anywhere. So they introduced the bill, which would, 150 00:08:28,918 --> 00:08:35,158 for any transactions up to $600, be capital gains tax free up to $5,000 a year. At some point, 151 00:08:35,158 --> 00:08:38,278 They lowered that to $300, and then it fully got scrapped at the end, the final discussions. 152 00:08:38,638 --> 00:08:42,198 Cynthia Lemus has now resubmitted that bill with the $300 mark. 153 00:08:42,458 --> 00:08:46,038 And as we've seen, any other bill outside of single large bills have difficulty getting 154 00:08:46,038 --> 00:08:46,258 passed. 155 00:08:46,358 --> 00:08:48,938 So I think that it's probably a few years until this is seriously revisited. 156 00:08:48,998 --> 00:08:51,718 But the fact that it was on the table, again, that senators, representatives in the House 157 00:08:51,718 --> 00:08:55,138 are hearing this as a key talking point in the crunch time of a bill being passed when 158 00:08:55,138 --> 00:08:57,958 they're really paying attention, I think is really important, movement of that Overton 159 00:08:57,958 --> 00:08:59,118 window even further. 160 00:08:59,518 --> 00:09:03,358 Something actually positive on the health side for our business at SoundHSA are some 161 00:09:03,358 --> 00:09:06,818 of the expansions around health savings accounts, actually. So you're able to, you're seeing an 162 00:09:06,818 --> 00:09:09,718 expansion now, you can pair those with bronze or catastrophic ACA plans, you can spend your, 163 00:09:09,998 --> 00:09:13,758 more importantly, your HSA or health savings directly with direct primary care providers, 164 00:09:13,918 --> 00:09:17,018 which for some reason hadn't been allowed before, as well as extending some COVID provisions around 165 00:09:17,018 --> 00:09:20,998 being able to spend it on telehealth directly too. So I think there's a lot in the bill, 166 00:09:21,118 --> 00:09:24,078 of course, 900 pages, it's going to add to the deficit, it's going to add, for Bitcoiners, 167 00:09:24,138 --> 00:09:30,418 just underlying of really having to monetize the debt as a country. A lot in there on PAC, 168 00:09:30,418 --> 00:09:33,898 but I think again the de minimis transactions if anything it's not enough right I think as 169 00:09:33,898 --> 00:09:37,478 Bitcoiners though we should still be pushing for a full Bitcoin as money it's valid currency around 170 00:09:37,478 --> 00:09:41,218 the world and there shouldn't be any capital gains tax we're not having capital gains tax when we go 171 00:09:41,218 --> 00:09:43,438 to Europe and we're going in and out of the euro and as we've seen the dollar is having its worst 172 00:09:43,438 --> 00:09:47,638 year in decades but even still we're not getting to write off a capital loss on our transactions 173 00:09:47,638 --> 00:09:52,078 that we make in other currencies so I think Bitcoin should really be treated as money and 174 00:09:52,078 --> 00:09:54,738 something we're going to try to do on the healthcare side at least where within the HSA for example you 175 00:09:54,738 --> 00:09:58,138 don't have capital gains tax being able to create more of that circular economy for Bitcoin and 176 00:09:58,138 --> 00:10:01,458 healthcare is one example where we don't have that friction point. But overall, the bill just 177 00:10:01,458 --> 00:10:05,898 adds to the deficit. And yeah, it's a train's left the station for sure. What do you think, Trey? 178 00:10:07,078 --> 00:10:11,238 Yeah, I'm gonna start off with positive, right? Because I feel like I come across negative 179 00:10:11,238 --> 00:10:15,898 sometimes. It's very positive that this discussion is even being had. It's a testament to the fact 180 00:10:15,898 --> 00:10:19,018 that we've got people in positions of power that actually care about the issues that we 181 00:10:19,018 --> 00:10:23,738 Bitcoiners care about. I agree with you, it should be treated the same as other currencies. But at 182 00:10:23,738 --> 00:10:27,418 the same time, we have a lot of people advocating that Bitcoin is not a currency, that it's just a 183 00:10:27,418 --> 00:10:31,638 store value that's just an asset uh and that we shouldn't even think about it as a currency even 184 00:10:31,638 --> 00:10:36,918 though it can operate in both in both arenas simultaneously so um i'm not surprised to see 185 00:10:36,918 --> 00:10:40,278 it be stripped out i was cautiously optimistic thinking oh yeah maybe this thing will sneak in 186 00:10:40,278 --> 00:10:42,838 along with the other pork or whatever that's that's out there that's going into this massive 187 00:10:42,838 --> 00:10:47,238 thing um but it didn't happen i agree with you that you know it has a much lower chance of being 188 00:10:47,238 --> 00:10:51,898 passed um on as a standalone bill because you know you can get more broad support if everybody's 189 00:10:51,898 --> 00:10:55,798 getting their pork you know included or their their special issues included into a big omnibus 190 00:10:55,798 --> 00:10:59,698 bill like this. But as soon as you start carving out an issue that only certain people care about, 191 00:10:59,778 --> 00:11:03,898 it's very difficult to garner the support for that particular piece, which is why we end up 192 00:11:03,898 --> 00:11:09,598 in this situation where you get these big bills. I also, I never saw an answer and probably should 193 00:11:09,598 --> 00:11:13,318 have done a little bit more research to figure this out. But do you guys know if that $600 that 194 00:11:13,318 --> 00:11:16,838 was being proposed or the drop to $300 was inflation adjusted at all? Or was it just a 195 00:11:16,838 --> 00:11:20,638 hard dollar amount? Because obviously we've been burned over and over again in the past from other 196 00:11:20,638 --> 00:11:25,778 types of like dollar denominated fixed amounts that uh turn out to you know come back to bite us 197 00:11:25,778 --> 00:11:30,658 as the inevitable debasement of the dollar uh you know continues on decade after decade right 198 00:11:30,658 --> 00:11:34,958 um did you guys see anything about that well so what i'll say is i don't know if that's changed 199 00:11:34,958 --> 00:11:41,218 i've heard that 600 number for some years so um i mean obviously that'll be 600 of bitcoin today 200 00:11:41,218 --> 00:11:44,598 in five years is going to be a whole lot different um but i imagine they're just thinking in dollar 201 00:11:44,598 --> 00:11:48,258 denominated terms i don't know if the de minimis rules like if they ramp up that amount over time 202 00:11:48,258 --> 00:11:52,158 or not yeah i don't think it was i'm guessing it's just 600 in perpetuity or even if yeah even 203 00:11:52,158 --> 00:11:56,098 if you're just thinking about it in like normal dollar denominated inflation adjusted terms okay 204 00:11:56,098 --> 00:12:00,238 whatever cpi is on a yearly basis it's three percent which is where around about where it's 205 00:12:00,238 --> 00:12:03,758 been now so you know starting in year one six hundred dollar exemption then in year two it's 206 00:12:03,758 --> 00:12:07,018 six hundred dollars plus three percent or whatever right like that should be anchored to something 207 00:12:07,018 --> 00:12:12,438 like cpi at least at the very least if you're at all serious about what the essence of the bill is 208 00:12:12,438 --> 00:12:22,778 supposed to be. But it's similar to these BSA or other compliance-oriented or regulatory numbers 209 00:12:22,778 --> 00:12:26,978 where we have to disclose information about putting money into a bank account or whatever 210 00:12:26,978 --> 00:12:31,218 the case is, or withdrawing cash. And they're anchored to dollar numbers that used to be about 211 00:12:31,218 --> 00:12:36,578 $70,000 in 1971 or whenever it was passed. And now it's still anchored at $10,000, which buys a 212 00:12:36,578 --> 00:12:41,018 lot less than what it used to. The real win would be getting it in sats. I'd love the 300,000 sats 213 00:12:41,018 --> 00:12:42,338 or less, no taxes on it. 214 00:12:42,498 --> 00:12:43,298 That would be a major win. 215 00:12:43,298 --> 00:12:43,718 That would be really cool. 216 00:12:43,898 --> 00:12:44,438 That would grow. 217 00:12:44,558 --> 00:12:45,198 Nobody understands that. 218 00:12:45,338 --> 00:12:47,138 We can buy more and more over time. 219 00:12:47,278 --> 00:12:48,518 Yeah, I think being anchored in 220 00:12:48,518 --> 00:12:49,298 Sats' unit of account 221 00:12:49,298 --> 00:12:50,658 is definitely the next step, 222 00:12:50,718 --> 00:12:51,298 maybe even the next bill. 223 00:12:51,338 --> 00:12:51,558 Who knows? 224 00:12:51,598 --> 00:12:52,338 I don't think it's in the current bill. 225 00:12:52,878 --> 00:12:53,998 But yeah, I think when you consider 226 00:12:53,998 --> 00:12:54,738 that Bank Secrecy Act 227 00:12:54,738 --> 00:12:55,158 you're referring to 228 00:12:55,158 --> 00:12:56,138 and now $10,000, 229 00:12:56,438 --> 00:12:56,978 okay, if you're traveling 230 00:12:56,978 --> 00:12:57,478 another country, 231 00:12:57,538 --> 00:12:58,078 you're supposed to disclose 232 00:12:58,078 --> 00:12:58,898 and so on, 233 00:12:58,998 --> 00:13:00,018 becomes more and more cumbersome 234 00:13:00,018 --> 00:13:01,138 for individuals, businesses, 235 00:13:01,618 --> 00:13:02,858 absolutely from a regulatory perspective 236 00:13:02,858 --> 00:13:03,698 and we know the debasement 237 00:13:03,698 --> 00:13:04,178 is going to continue. 238 00:13:05,098 --> 00:13:06,378 So we'll continue to, 239 00:13:06,418 --> 00:13:07,098 I think, see how that bill 240 00:13:07,098 --> 00:13:08,258 progresses or at least 241 00:13:08,258 --> 00:13:12,258 the conversation around it. I know there's some other kind of initial report cards due here in a 242 00:13:12,258 --> 00:13:17,458 couple weeks in July around what the initial crypto task force was set out to do. So we'll 243 00:13:17,458 --> 00:13:21,078 continue to hear more and more, I think, of Bitcoin and digital assets more broadly coming out of the 244 00:13:21,078 --> 00:13:27,038 White House in DC. Yeah, look, maybe it's just our echo chamber, but it does feel like Bitcoin is 245 00:13:27,038 --> 00:13:31,798 part of the conversation in a lot more realms, or at least it's like when it's injected into the 246 00:13:31,798 --> 00:13:36,238 conversation, people don't just automatically reject its relevance to the situation. And you'll 247 00:13:36,238 --> 00:13:38,878 see a lot more of that as there's more adoption and more people hold it and more people are 248 00:13:38,878 --> 00:13:43,878 thinking about it um but you know i i'm still i'm still continuing to be surprised just by how 249 00:13:43,878 --> 00:13:48,298 the price just hasn't gotten out and running yet you know just based off of all the actual 250 00:13:48,298 --> 00:13:51,678 bullishness that's happening right like we we know for a fact that we're at least adding five 251 00:13:51,678 --> 00:13:54,718 trillion dollars to the national debt that's like over you know what's the national debt now 252 00:13:54,718 --> 00:13:58,898 three points you know 37 trillion uh so we're adding five trillion to that until we hit the 253 00:13:58,898 --> 00:14:02,758 next the next debt ceiling we'll probably get there in you know what three years or something 254 00:14:02,758 --> 00:14:07,158 like that. I don't know how long this is supposed to last. And so, you know, that's at the very 255 00:14:07,158 --> 00:14:12,058 least, if you just look at the national debt as a measurement of dollar debasement, which I think 256 00:14:12,058 --> 00:14:16,438 that's an interesting proxy, you're at least looking at, you know, this like 15% type of a 257 00:14:16,438 --> 00:14:19,258 number of debasement that is just guaranteed to be happening over the next couple of years. 258 00:14:19,758 --> 00:14:37,817 Yeah So on a more positive note recently I guess this would be the FHA I forget who exactly was saying this but the FHA head whoever it is was saying that you can now or maybe now or soon I not sure which it is consider Bitcoin as part of your total assets whenever you applying for a mortgage It once again adds credibility to Bitcoin as this 259 00:14:37,817 --> 00:14:41,917 is an asset that people that the government considers worth considering when it comes to 260 00:14:41,917 --> 00:14:44,237 your mortgage. So I think it's I think it's a pretty cool thing. I don't know if you guys have 261 00:14:44,237 --> 00:14:47,057 any thoughts on it. I'll also be interested to know if it actually affects, you know, who can 262 00:14:47,057 --> 00:14:50,957 buy a home. But any thoughts on this or, you know, reflections from looking at some of these changes? 263 00:14:50,957 --> 00:14:55,637 i'm gonna take a very small victory lap on this one just because it was like two or three episodes 264 00:14:55,637 --> 00:15:01,297 that we did ago and it was like just before that announcement came and i said i think the the 265 00:15:01,297 --> 00:15:07,257 biggest uh you know policy of bank adoption will come when they just start offering credit based 266 00:15:07,257 --> 00:15:11,697 off of bitcoin being included in the asset base that you are that you're disclosing to them um 267 00:15:11,697 --> 00:15:14,917 that that is collateralized so it's not like you're they're doing loans that are directly 268 00:15:14,917 --> 00:15:19,077 backed by bitcoin or something like that but just the fact that they're acknowledging this as an 269 00:15:19,077 --> 00:15:22,837 actual asset that is on people's personal balance sheets to get a mortgage is a huge, huge win. 270 00:15:23,077 --> 00:15:26,017 Because think about all of the process that needs to be in place for them to do that, right? Like 271 00:15:26,017 --> 00:15:30,657 they've got to have some way of verifying that they've got to have some way of just putting that 272 00:15:30,657 --> 00:15:34,277 in their paperwork. It requires some education from the underwriter standpoint as to what this 273 00:15:34,277 --> 00:15:39,357 is and how to value it. And you know, what the market structure looks like. The pronouncement 274 00:15:39,357 --> 00:15:43,837 was about crypto at large, but you know, really the only thing that is viable in this scenario is 275 00:15:43,837 --> 00:15:47,017 Bitcoin, because it's the only thing that actually has any staying power or depth in terms of 276 00:15:47,017 --> 00:15:51,797 liquidity such that like from an underwriter standpoint um the most important thing is like 277 00:15:51,797 --> 00:15:56,177 okay what assets do you have to liquidate in the event that you lose your job and you can no longer 278 00:15:56,177 --> 00:15:59,957 actually service this loan right that's essentially what it is um it is a secondary consideration for 279 00:15:59,957 --> 00:16:04,617 for loan loan applications or mortgage applications so just keep that in mind that like what they're 280 00:16:04,617 --> 00:16:08,817 underwriting is your ability to service that loan um and that the primary thing that people that 281 00:16:08,817 --> 00:16:11,957 banks are looking at or mortgage lenders are looking at is your income or your ability to 282 00:16:11,957 --> 00:16:14,817 provide some type of cash flow to cover the interest payment and the principal payment on 283 00:16:14,817 --> 00:16:18,237 that loan the asset value piece of this is secondary but it's still an important piece of 284 00:16:18,237 --> 00:16:22,677 this and so it's just like starting to creep its way in to these institutions that control a lot of 285 00:16:22,677 --> 00:16:27,197 capital that uh control a lot of the credit infrastructure and part of that process is that 286 00:16:27,197 --> 00:16:31,857 these people that are around that that procedure for initiating a mortgage uh they now have to 287 00:16:31,857 --> 00:16:34,717 understand bitcoin a little bit better and that goes into their psyche and now they're like oh 288 00:16:34,717 --> 00:16:38,057 well maybe this thing is more uh has more staying power than i thought and maybe i'll pick up a 289 00:16:38,057 --> 00:16:41,317 little bit on my own um you know just for their personal balance sheet so this is this is how 290 00:16:41,317 --> 00:16:44,797 adoption happens just a little bit at a time a little bit under the radar and we end up in a 291 00:16:44,797 --> 00:16:49,137 situation where Bitcoin is just ubiquitous. Yeah, I agree. I think this can't be overstated. It's a 292 00:16:49,137 --> 00:16:53,137 massive, massive win for Bitcoiners in the US. Credit to Bill Pulte and the Federal Housing 293 00:16:53,137 --> 00:16:56,117 Association. And really to see the speed and the engagement that they had on X was really 294 00:16:56,117 --> 00:16:59,537 interesting and the feedback they're getting from Bitcoiners. They got this, they raised it and got 295 00:16:59,537 --> 00:17:02,957 the letter signed relatively quickly. And yeah, we've spoken about this on previous shows. And I 296 00:17:02,957 --> 00:17:05,777 think having Bitcoin recognized in your personal balance sheet when you go to get a mortgage really 297 00:17:05,777 --> 00:17:09,037 opens up your optionality as an individual. You don't have to necessarily sell your Bitcoin right 298 00:17:09,037 --> 00:17:13,217 now to get the liquidity to even show that you can get a mortgage, right? And Vannie Mae and Freddie 299 00:17:13,217 --> 00:17:16,057 Mac are backing or buying essentially like half of all mortgages that come out. I mean, this is the 300 00:17:16,057 --> 00:17:19,697 U.S. government backstopping a lot of these loans that are being written, which of course is part of 301 00:17:19,697 --> 00:17:22,317 the money printing process. When a home is sold and you write a mortgage, they're creating new 302 00:17:22,317 --> 00:17:27,297 money as a bank to pay the seller, right? Ultimately, right? And so having Bitcoin recognized 303 00:17:27,297 --> 00:17:32,417 as part of that equation, I think, again, just gives more power to Bitcoiners in deciding when 304 00:17:32,417 --> 00:17:36,237 and how they utilize their Bitcoin to improve their life, you know, your life into the future. 305 00:17:36,337 --> 00:17:39,897 And so whether that's enabling a purchase that wouldn't have been enabled at all and having that 306 00:17:39,897 --> 00:17:43,977 primary dwelling place. I think you have a massive monetary premium placed on homes right now in 307 00:17:43,977 --> 00:17:47,237 certain places around the country. Prices are falling a little bit, but particularly in outer 308 00:17:47,237 --> 00:17:50,337 areas where there's just no inventory or zoning considerations, there's not enough supply that's 309 00:17:50,337 --> 00:17:53,177 being built. And when you have an average housing price, seven times average income, 310 00:17:53,557 --> 00:17:56,897 when it used to be two or three, there's just more and more difficulty for younger people in 311 00:17:56,897 --> 00:17:59,317 being able to get a home. So for Bitcoiners now, knowing that, hey, if I'm stacking Bitcoin, 312 00:17:59,417 --> 00:18:03,337 I'm saving in Bitcoin when the time comes to go get a mortgage, this will be used as part of that 313 00:18:03,337 --> 00:18:06,977 equation alongside other investments, really legitimizes Bitcoin and I think further incentivizes 314 00:18:06,977 --> 00:18:11,877 people to take a look at bitcoin as being an option for just personal holdings and a benefit 315 00:18:11,877 --> 00:18:16,017 it can have of ultimately getting some credit based on that bitcoin that you have yeah you're 316 00:18:16,017 --> 00:18:18,497 kind of you're kind of touching on like a tangential point that i want to make and been 317 00:18:18,497 --> 00:18:23,517 thinking about recently which is that as bitcoin grows and as the value of it increases bitcoin 318 00:18:23,517 --> 00:18:26,137 holders like us who have been around for a while the people who are coming into the space who are 319 00:18:26,137 --> 00:18:28,757 building their bitcoin balance sheet for themselves and for their businesses and all that 320 00:18:28,757 --> 00:18:34,217 several years from now like we end up in a very strong economic position such that we are going 321 00:18:34,217 --> 00:18:38,497 have a lot more purchasing power for the actual real goods and businesses and assets around the 322 00:18:38,497 --> 00:18:44,377 economy and um you know i hosted this panel at bitcoin 2025 on bitcoin and financial independence 323 00:18:44,377 --> 00:18:49,117 retire early and all that and brian herrington was one of the panelists there and he made a point 324 00:18:49,117 --> 00:18:55,877 that i kind of joked about as part of the panel that um he he was basically saying look the coiners 325 00:18:55,877 --> 00:19:00,137 should buy real estate we should buy businesses we should own these assets because if we don't then 326 00:19:00,137 --> 00:19:04,297 the people who don't own Bitcoin, who don't believe in it will. And it kind of like leaves 327 00:19:04,297 --> 00:19:09,157 all of that to the fiat maxi, so to speak. And I laughed that off and I was like, oh, so buying 328 00:19:09,157 --> 00:19:12,297 real estate is a moral argument now, you know, and all that. But it actually stuck with me. 329 00:19:12,397 --> 00:19:16,197 And I've been thinking a little bit more about this, that he might be right there, right? Like 330 00:19:16,197 --> 00:19:20,017 it's actually important for us to, obviously we're going to recognize the opportunity cost of owning 331 00:19:20,017 --> 00:19:22,657 anything other than Bitcoin. And there's an economic calculation that we all go through 332 00:19:22,657 --> 00:19:26,317 as Bitcoiners once you understand what that opportunity cost is of not owning Bitcoin in 333 00:19:26,317 --> 00:19:30,517 favor of something else. But at the same time, he's right. Like, and at some point in the future, 334 00:19:30,517 --> 00:19:35,997 we will have the economic powerhouses on our side that can own all of these other assets that 335 00:19:35,997 --> 00:19:39,797 actually control things in meat space. And we should be people like the people with our value 336 00:19:39,797 --> 00:19:43,317 sets, the people who understand the promise that Bitcoin brings to the world. Like we're all going 337 00:19:43,317 --> 00:19:47,037 to be better served if we actually own all these assets. So my message to Bitcoiners out there is 338 00:19:47,037 --> 00:19:53,117 be thinking about this in the next five years, 10 years, 15 years, whatever, there will be another 339 00:19:53,117 --> 00:19:58,057 big crisis, another big opportunity for Bitcoiners who have accumulated all this purchasing power 340 00:19:58,057 --> 00:20:01,377 to come in and start scooping up some of these distressed assets that other people are kind of 341 00:20:01,377 --> 00:20:05,557 forced to sell because they're financing them with so much leverage that they have to cover 342 00:20:05,557 --> 00:20:09,197 that they have to sell it down. We should actually make sure that we're mentally, psychologically 343 00:20:09,197 --> 00:20:12,757 in a position to scoop those things up, even if it means parting with some portion of our stack, 344 00:20:13,097 --> 00:20:16,577 because we need to start balancing out the ownership of assets across the economy and getting 345 00:20:16,577 --> 00:20:20,757 more and more Bitcoiners in positions where they control the means of production, so to speak. 346 00:20:20,757 --> 00:20:25,997 Yep. Yep. Yeah. And so I think that Bitcoin just holding it is 100% a valid use case. At the same 347 00:20:25,997 --> 00:20:29,497 time, there's a certain point where you might want to think about moving away from just accumulating 348 00:20:29,497 --> 00:20:34,377 and beginning to build with it. And to that end, the last episode of the podcast was with Wyatt 349 00:20:34,377 --> 00:20:38,437 O'Rourke. And he is, I think, the CMO at The Space in Denver. We didn't talk too much about 350 00:20:38,437 --> 00:20:42,617 the space. I got a white book right here. Perfect. Yeah. So we talked about the Bitcoinization of 351 00:20:42,617 --> 00:20:45,757 finance. We talked about that on the podcast. We didn't talk about The Space too much. We did talk 352 00:20:45,757 --> 00:20:49,937 in a bonus episode a little bit about urbanism, but it's something to consider. Brian's been a 353 00:20:49,937 --> 00:20:53,697 voice on this. Bobby Schell from Voltage as well. And I think there'll be a lot more people talking 354 00:20:53,697 --> 00:20:57,617 about whether it's business or some people are talking about thinking about how to build Bitcoin 355 00:20:57,617 --> 00:21:02,037 urbanism, building structures that raise the human spirit and that last for generations. So I think 356 00:21:02,037 --> 00:21:06,137 there's a lot of opportunity in the future for Bitcoiners as their wealth increases because 357 00:21:06,137 --> 00:21:08,557 they've held Bitcoin and benefited from that for so long. But then it's like, once you've held it, 358 00:21:08,797 --> 00:21:13,797 what can you do to build with it and build a world that reflects hard money values and lasting values? 359 00:21:14,477 --> 00:21:17,177 And we're going to want to, and there's goods and services we're going to need, right? And so I think 360 00:21:17,177 --> 00:21:19,297 as the population demographics in the U.S. 361 00:21:19,317 --> 00:21:21,397 We have a larger boomer population that's aging, 362 00:21:21,477 --> 00:21:23,097 that's looking to sell their businesses. 363 00:21:23,217 --> 00:21:23,677 They want to retire. 364 00:21:23,777 --> 00:21:25,297 Maybe they don't have kids to hand it off to 365 00:21:25,297 --> 00:21:26,197 or their kids are doing something else. 366 00:21:26,737 --> 00:21:28,017 There's certainly opportunities out there. 367 00:21:28,117 --> 00:21:30,257 I think if you're to that SMB point, 368 00:21:30,337 --> 00:21:31,057 small, medium-sized businesses, 369 00:21:31,257 --> 00:21:32,117 that big corners can go out there, 370 00:21:32,177 --> 00:21:33,697 cash-flowing businesses where you can get some stats flow, 371 00:21:33,797 --> 00:21:34,937 serve your local community. 372 00:21:35,337 --> 00:21:36,837 And rather than those types of businesses 373 00:21:36,837 --> 00:21:38,857 being bought up by private equity or larger entities, 374 00:21:38,977 --> 00:21:51,055 and certainly have seen this trend play out massively in healthcare where you have a ton of M and very smaller numbers of independent providers and practices out there getting bought up in bigger and bigger health systems and worse service worse quality playing out the more we have Bitcoin doctors 375 00:21:51,055 --> 00:21:54,675 and or Bitcoin business owners in general providing different needs. 376 00:21:54,755 --> 00:21:58,515 I think that definitely to your point, Trey, is going to continue to play a bigger and bigger 377 00:21:58,515 --> 00:21:58,735 role. 378 00:21:59,375 --> 00:22:03,615 And having that primary dwelling space is part of the American dream and being able to attain 379 00:22:03,615 --> 00:22:07,455 that, I think, through and via Bitcoin over the next few years as we move into the now 380 00:22:07,455 --> 00:22:13,535 we're actually closer to 2050 than we are to 2000. So, you know, moving to the back half of 381 00:22:13,535 --> 00:22:16,175 this decade too, it's just going to be, I think, more and more clear. So people are hopefully going 382 00:22:16,175 --> 00:22:19,475 to be waking up and learning and studying Bitcoin, or at least listening to some podcasts and start 383 00:22:19,475 --> 00:22:22,475 reading all the material that have accumulated now, particularly over the last half decade, 384 00:22:22,535 --> 00:22:25,975 I think, you know, since COVID and really that money printing. So we'll see what the next number 385 00:22:25,975 --> 00:22:30,635 is and how many trillions get added. But it's getting to the point and already is at the point 386 00:22:30,635 --> 00:22:33,275 numbers that we have a hard time comprehending as humans. I mean, it's just unbelievable. 387 00:22:33,695 --> 00:22:36,295 So we say trillion. It feels like the only people, the way the real estate is going, 388 00:22:36,295 --> 00:22:39,235 like for primary residences the only people who are going to be able to afford their first home 389 00:22:39,235 --> 00:22:43,955 are like young people who own bitcoin already i mean it might actually play out that way and for 390 00:22:43,955 --> 00:22:47,275 large swaths of the population where it's like oh this thing is like totally out of reach for me now 391 00:22:47,275 --> 00:22:51,155 i'm still living in my parents basement when i'm 35 but look at my buddy who bought bitcoin 10 years 392 00:22:51,155 --> 00:22:55,315 ago and he's got this nice you know single family home the yard and everything that i'm looking to 393 00:22:55,315 --> 00:23:00,275 get to and just can't you know that's exactly kind of like the the path i'm talking about and and 394 00:23:00,275 --> 00:23:06,035 it's it's definitely gonna be uh definitely gonna be fun or maybe not fun if it causes some animosity 395 00:23:06,035 --> 00:23:07,395 to watch all that play out. 396 00:23:07,795 --> 00:23:08,995 Yeah, and one last piece about the bill. 397 00:23:09,135 --> 00:23:10,695 They did say you need to have your cryptocurrency 398 00:23:10,695 --> 00:23:12,955 or Bitcoin in our case on a centralized exchange 399 00:23:12,955 --> 00:23:13,915 in order for them to recognize it. 400 00:23:13,995 --> 00:23:16,075 And I think with the stepping stones, it makes sense. 401 00:23:16,355 --> 00:23:17,315 Obviously, hopefully we get to a point 402 00:23:17,315 --> 00:23:19,435 where they as the FHA have confidence in verifying 403 00:23:19,435 --> 00:23:21,215 maybe using Hoseki or other kind of proof of reserves 404 00:23:21,215 --> 00:23:22,855 at an individual level and signing your own keys 405 00:23:22,855 --> 00:23:24,895 and showing maybe working with an institution like Unchained 406 00:23:24,895 --> 00:23:26,115 and saying, this is my Bitcoin here 407 00:23:26,115 --> 00:23:27,635 held in collaborative custody should be counted as well 408 00:23:27,635 --> 00:23:29,135 versus having to send it to an exchange 409 00:23:29,135 --> 00:23:29,995 and have it recognized. 410 00:23:30,315 --> 00:23:31,715 But it doesn't need to sit on an exchange necessarily 411 00:23:31,715 --> 00:23:33,635 for the duration of the loan. 412 00:23:34,055 --> 00:23:35,695 But just to the point, there will still be ways 413 00:23:35,695 --> 00:23:38,615 to improve even this announcement, but I think is really a step in the right direction. 414 00:23:39,075 --> 00:23:42,355 So the last thing, I'd like to get your thoughts on this. There's an article from CNBC that said, 415 00:23:42,415 --> 00:23:45,355 I think it was for the third quarter, that corporations have accumulated more Bitcoin 416 00:23:45,355 --> 00:23:48,715 than the ETFs. I'm curious to know if you guys think this will be a continual trend. Will 417 00:23:48,715 --> 00:23:51,895 corporations for the next 30 quarters be accumulating more Bitcoin than the ETFs? Or do 418 00:23:51,895 --> 00:23:54,695 you feel like retail will catch up? And once again, obviously, we're talking about ETFs as 419 00:23:54,695 --> 00:23:57,955 opposed to spot Bitcoin. So you're just buying and holding it, whether it's on a centralized 420 00:23:57,955 --> 00:24:01,535 exchange, like we just talked about, or in cold storage. Do you think that corporations will 421 00:24:01,535 --> 00:24:08,915 continuously beat out retail moving forward i think corporations sit at a privileged position 422 00:24:08,915 --> 00:24:13,275 in terms of their access to capital using the the capital markets so they can add leverage and 423 00:24:13,275 --> 00:24:17,615 therefore bring purchasing power into the present where individuals are not able to do that i think 424 00:24:17,615 --> 00:24:22,015 the majority of this corporations buying bitcoin is just coming from the coiners who are starting 425 00:24:22,015 --> 00:24:25,755 corporations or spacking into corporations to buy bitcoin so i don't know that that really represents 426 00:24:25,755 --> 00:24:31,515 like the the true adoption that we're all hoping to see on the corporate front and you know in 427 00:24:31,515 --> 00:24:36,395 mind there's there probably is some kind of upward limit to how far out of our bubble that can 428 00:24:36,395 --> 00:24:42,075 actually expand um so like it remains to be seen as to whether or not we see more organic adoption 429 00:24:42,075 --> 00:24:46,635 of bitcoin onto corporate balance sheets in the way that i think we on this call all would like 430 00:24:46,635 --> 00:24:52,315 to see it which is that half the s p 500 has some portion of bitcoin as part of a like primary 431 00:24:52,315 --> 00:24:55,755 treasury reserve asset or maybe just a secondary treasury reserve assets like some portion of their 432 00:24:55,755 --> 00:25:01,355 cash holdings is held uh you know as like a long duration view with bitcoin and uh but then they're 433 00:25:01,355 --> 00:25:05,095 carrying on their business and they're still trying to grow and add to their retained earnings 434 00:25:05,095 --> 00:25:08,535 some portion of which then goes back into bitcoin that's what we really want to see and i think over 435 00:25:08,535 --> 00:25:12,935 time like that uh that flywheel or that snowball continues to roll downhill and picks up more 436 00:25:12,935 --> 00:25:17,175 momentum and it does does become you know easier for corporations to buy larger amounts of bitcoin 437 00:25:17,175 --> 00:25:21,975 but i i don't know how long like the bitcoin treasury company phenomenon is going to last 438 00:25:21,975 --> 00:25:28,695 but i i definitely think we're going to see some bodies um floating by on on that trend and um and 439 00:25:28,695 --> 00:25:32,515 there is some kind of an upward limit, I think, to like the number of these things that can exist, 440 00:25:32,715 --> 00:25:36,135 especially in any given jurisdiction or market, but even across the world. We'll see. I don't 441 00:25:36,135 --> 00:25:38,975 know. What do you think, John? Yeah, I agree. I think we're, Lynn Alden wrote a great piece on 442 00:25:38,975 --> 00:25:42,395 this. I highly recommend everyone reading her July newsletter, but given Bitcoin's growth to 443 00:25:42,395 --> 00:25:45,535 this point and being a $2 trillion asset and being solidly there now for at least a couple months 444 00:25:45,535 --> 00:25:50,175 and quick monetization relatively over 16 years, Bitcoin's on the path that it should be if it is 445 00:25:50,175 --> 00:25:53,255 going to be adopted as global money that nation states and policymakers, as we've already talked 446 00:25:53,255 --> 00:25:56,895 about, but now businesses are getting interested and wanting to add it to their balance sheet. 447 00:25:56,895 --> 00:26:05,235 We're actually seeing a lot of those traders and people out there that are seeking maybe higher volatility and higher short-term returns that they previously sought in altcoins or shitcoins in previous ICOs. 448 00:26:05,375 --> 00:26:09,735 And in recent years, you're seeing a lot of that activity happening in the capital markets via Bitcoin treasury companies. 449 00:26:09,975 --> 00:26:17,635 And so it's just a sign as well, I think, where you haven't had an alt season that I think a lot of other, you know, more on the crypto side might have expected as we've seen Bitcoin's price rise over the last two years. 450 00:26:17,755 --> 00:26:20,295 And a lot of that activity is happening with Bitcoin treasury companies. 451 00:26:20,295 --> 00:26:26,175 So I agree there certainly could be the place where there's a deleveraging at some point because it's hard to say exactly how much leverage these companies are taking on. 452 00:26:26,175 --> 00:26:31,095 is a varying degree in individual companies that have now more access to investing in stocks than 453 00:26:31,095 --> 00:26:35,395 they did in getting into altcoins. Definitely haven't hit its peak yet. But to your point, 454 00:26:35,395 --> 00:26:38,295 Trey, on more organic, where that feels maybe inorganic, where Bitcoiners jumping in and just 455 00:26:38,295 --> 00:26:41,995 doing this thing, there definitely has been some organic Bitcoin adoption from solid companies, 456 00:26:42,055 --> 00:26:45,555 such as Figma, for example, which offers great software tools for UX and design. 457 00:26:46,175 --> 00:26:49,995 In their S1 filing, looking to go public, have bought $70 million of a Bitcoin ETF, too, 458 00:26:50,055 --> 00:26:52,915 which is notable now that we're a year and a half into the ETFs. It made that easy for them to buy 459 00:26:52,915 --> 00:26:57,195 Bitcoin with a possible allocation of another $30 million into Bitcoin as well. So I think those 460 00:26:57,195 --> 00:27:00,195 types of headlines to me really strike a chord because it's a company that's just building, 461 00:27:00,315 --> 00:27:04,755 growing, scaling, serving a really important use for startups and other companies that have 462 00:27:04,755 --> 00:27:06,855 recognized the importance of just adding Bitcoin to their balance sheet. They don't even make a 463 00:27:06,855 --> 00:27:10,855 big deal about it. But as they go public, I think that makes them that much more attractive and would 464 00:27:10,855 --> 00:27:15,015 put them on those rankings of Bitcoin treasury companies. Yeah, we'll still see these kind of 465 00:27:15,015 --> 00:27:18,175 strong leaders of companies that just get orange-pilled and decide to start stacking Bitcoin 466 00:27:18,175 --> 00:27:22,235 personally. And then for their company, like I know one in particular that I'm thinking of that 467 00:27:22,235 --> 00:27:27,455 is looking to go public later this year is a very successful uh commercial uh like serves commercial 468 00:27:27,455 --> 00:27:33,015 grade type um customers and has like you know 100 million dollars a year in revenue and is just a 469 00:27:33,015 --> 00:27:37,235 very profitable high growth company and the ceo is just fully down the rabbit hole orange pilled 470 00:27:37,235 --> 00:27:41,935 has his own personal stack and is stacking for the business and um he's looking to you know take 471 00:27:41,935 --> 00:27:45,535 advantage of the opportunity the arbitrage that exists in the capital markets by taking his company 472 00:27:45,535 --> 00:27:50,475 public so that he can stack more sats there so that is a very like that is the story that i love 473 00:27:50,475 --> 00:27:55,675 hearing right because it is um very much organic it's very much a hey we've got a business in the 474 00:27:55,675 --> 00:27:59,535 real world that provides real services that's actually profitable and we're adopting bitcoin 475 00:27:59,535 --> 00:28:03,915 and we're going to arbitrage the capital markets to like you know amplify the speculative attack 476 00:28:03,915 --> 00:28:08,195 that we can on the dollar those are the stories that i love love hearing and it's going to be fun 477 00:28:08,195 --> 00:28:12,035 to watch that when it comes when it comes to light and comes to market absolutely well another thing 478 00:28:12,035 --> 00:28:14,995 people might love hearing is where to hear more from each of you so if you don't mind guys sharing 479 00:28:14,995 --> 00:28:19,855 where people can go to keep up with your work yeah you can follow me on x at ts underscore hodl 480 00:28:19,855 --> 00:28:21,555 and my newsletter is FireBTC, 481 00:28:21,775 --> 00:28:22,915 firebtc.substack.com. 482 00:28:23,075 --> 00:28:24,675 Go give it a read and subscribe for free. 483 00:28:25,335 --> 00:28:26,575 Yeah, and you can follow me on X and Oster 484 00:28:26,575 --> 00:28:27,355 at TheBitcoinYogi. 485 00:28:27,655 --> 00:28:28,815 You can check out some of my consulting work 486 00:28:28,815 --> 00:28:29,655 at satoshihelf.com. 487 00:28:29,915 --> 00:28:31,355 And if you're interested in Bitcoin HSA, 488 00:28:31,535 --> 00:28:32,555 check out soundhsa.com 489 00:28:32,555 --> 00:28:33,375 and see what we've got in the works. 490 00:28:33,835 --> 00:28:34,655 Excited to connect with you all. 491 00:28:35,275 --> 00:28:35,595 Great. 492 00:28:35,815 --> 00:28:36,635 Thank you guys for your time today. 493 00:28:36,655 --> 00:28:36,915 It's been a pleasure. 494 00:28:37,515 --> 00:28:38,035 Yeah, good conversation. 495 00:28:38,515 --> 00:28:38,815 Thanks, guys. 496 00:28:39,175 --> 00:28:40,015 Well, friends, it's a wrap. 497 00:28:40,075 --> 00:28:41,595 Thanks so much for listening to this episode 498 00:28:41,595 --> 00:28:43,395 of the Bitcoin Playbook. 499 00:28:43,495 --> 00:28:45,295 If you want to reach out to either me, Trey, or John, 500 00:28:45,415 --> 00:28:47,555 you can find those links down in the show notes. 501 00:28:47,555 --> 00:28:52,115 and be sure to check out both Sound HSA and the Fire BTC sub stack. 502 00:28:52,375 --> 00:28:53,875 As always, keep building, keep growing. 503 00:28:54,075 --> 00:28:56,695 Until next time, keep living and living well.