It's like GoFundMe, you know,
or whatever had that boycott
GoFundMe was like, you know what?
We're not all that money you sent.
We're just going to give it to
So it would be much.
Wouldn't it be much more cool
at bitcoin and then nobody's
They got, you know, whoever
and nobody can stop.
Welcome to the Business
to helping you enrich your
bitcoin, the hardest money on
I'm your host, Josh
Mike Carson, who is an early
He was also one of the first
to purchase a physical item on
And now he's created the
create permissionless and
We're going to get to our
Mike, welcome to the podcast.
Thanks.
Thanks for having me.
So I like to start off every
that help us to get to know
us some insight for our own lives.
Are you ready for these?
Yeah.
Question number one is this.
When and how did you first
I read Hacker News.
I've been on Hacker News for a
posts about bitcoin, but I
Attention.
I wish I would have paid
it like, they posted on Hacker
So I ignored like the first
But then there was a post
I should look.
This sounds interesting.
So I looked into it.
I looked in my email, like, I
mention of bitcoin and I was
like, I really want to get bitcoin.
I think it could be big.
It's currently.
It was at $8 on Wednesday and
So I missed the chance.
But I remember looking into it
but there were no exchanges
So I remember I created an
You had to Western Union some
And it just seemed like such a
I wish I would have.
But then I got.
I remember I had a little bit
I'm a domain investor, so I
Like, I remember, I think I
And this is when Bitcoin was
So it's a domain for like less
But then I sold it because it
It went from under 100 to.
And like, I sold it at like 200.
I was like, yeah, I doubled my
But then after it went so
like, this is okay.
Something is going.
Something's here.
So I waited and like, I don't
really got it.
I got into Bitcoin in 2013,
There's like a bear market,
I had waited for.
And like, I.
I was like.
Because it was in the news and
to wait until it's like, kind
and there's not a lot of stuff
And then I got some more then.
But yeah, so it's.
I've been in, you know, I've
Over 10 years, probably since.
Seriously.
Well, since 2013 around there.
Yeah.
Well, I think the anecdote of
just been 8, I think that's
now be getting interested in
went from about 60 to 90 in
Some people are going to think
I think a lot of people who
number of years would probably
five or 10 years is still
Obviously, getting in 2009 or
going to be much, much better.
But at the same time, I feel
think you kind of touched on
of what they were holding to
2024.
So it's just a different time.
But it's certainly not too
The thing is, it's a constant
I keep learning more and more
it's like talking about, are
It's like, what are the
You know, like, do you want
by the government where they
Is that what you want to, you
save up and do you want your money?
Do you want to hold your
print a lot more and they have
years?
It's like, no, I don't, I
And then, but then it's like,
And you know, you just learn
bitcoin is, I mean, what I
I mean, there's a lot of
like it's backed by math.
You know, it's.
It's not backed by the power
you know, the military or, you
It's like it's backed just
So that may.
You may have pre answered this
is what's an insight or fact
understood?
Yeah, that's hard to narrow
But I mean, it's the cool.
Yeah, I mean, the.
Well, I guess.
Okay, here's one thing that I think.
I think would be.
Is really interesting thing
knew is that it's not that
I mean, it can be, you know,
code and stuff like that.
But like, if you just read the
That's what struck me really
like huge, complex research
to know.
It's like, it's actually like
probably watch a YouTube video
But the way that blocks are
find the, you know, you just
the first number of the first
You know, it's like really
That's how you mine a block
And you get the block reward
it's pretty much a simple math
simple.
But it solves this problem
which is really cool.
So it's backed by this simple
problem that's never been
So I guess my main.
I guess if I was going to
not as complicated as people
The basic principles are
Question number three.
What's the bitcoin resource
Yeah, that's a tricky one.
I'm a fan of Andreas Antonopoulos.
He's been around for a long
on.
He does a good job of
His book Mastering Bitcoin is
If you read that, you'll have
And he's on Patreon now.
You can, like, sign up and he
answer stuff.
And so I guess that that would
Yeah.
Question number four.
Beyond Bitcoin, what's a
helpful to you or your work recently?
Yeah, that one.
It would definitely have to be AI.
I mean, AI has changed.
I mean, for me, I was a little
You know, I don't.
I don't know what's a good.
What's it really changing?
What's it.
You know, is it.
Is it really.
Is there just a lot of hype
But then I started using it
of difference from, like, I
before my daughter was born.
And, you know, is.
It is completely different.
It was so much slower.
Like now with AI, it's so much faster.
I can do so much more, so much
It's really changed the.
It's really changed it completely.
Like, if I had to go back just
it would be so horrible.
I was talking to my friend.
He.
He's older and he, like, used
they had to do, like.
He had to type in numbers into
a computer, it was just like a
an.
And he was like, if I had to
myself.
And it's like almost.
It's.
In some ways it's kind of similar.
Like, if I had to go back and
It's so much slower that it
ways.
And I think just going
It might get more and More
Because I was a little
skeptical because I've used
multiple things, not just programming.
Like, I was putting together
I have a 3D printer, and me
like, wiring these circuits
And I'm not an electrician or
I didn't really know.
I mean, there was a wiring
I had some questions because
three.
And so I just put the wiring
can see that it splits into
What do I.
Should I splice the wire?
What should I do?
And it was like, no, it's not
You should probably get, like,
And I didn't know what a
Amazon for, like, a couple
So it's like having an expert
different things.
So, yeah, I mean, I can
Like, imagine when robot.
Like the Tesla robot or
capabilities.
It's gonna be.
Things are gon.
Yeah, it'll be an interesting
And I'm sure things will only
But it is interesting to see
last couple of years from AI
using it for is very rudimentary.
But now it's a great sounding
or at least sparks for
So I can definitely, you know,
there.
Now we have our final.
What we call our arbitrary but
And it's this.
As a general life principle,
Yeah, that's.
That's a good question.
Interesting question.
Because they're.
In some ways, they're similar.
But I.
I like the why not question
like, you know, why things are
to be.
I try to.
I really try to teach that to
Like, actually, my.
My son, I purposely didn't
Like, I want it because I wanted.
That's the whole reason and I
want you to question, like, do
say, you don't have to do it
for yourself, basically think
So yeah, I like that.
Why?
Why not?
But why is good too.
Yeah, they both have their
Well, Mike, we're here today
you're involved with, but
I think when this is released,
If my intel is correct, I'm
us a little bit about the
that you're looking to solve
So I just to give a little bit
called Parc IO in 2014.
So 10 years ago that was into
And I ended up managing like
and did a lot of domain stuff
domain stuff like DNS and stuff.
And so I got to know a lot how
And also at the same time I
that domain names should
they're a digital asset.
And why do you need a third
to use your name or why do you
and the problems even get worse.
It's not just like ownership.
There's like, you know,
the Internet has to rely on a
So you have to like, basically
keys.
You know, it's, it's kind of ridiculous.
And it's not just domain names though.
It's like usernames, like
Like they even, you know, not
know, even the President of
name taken away.
A person should be able to own
Like it's super important.
If there's one thing as
it's naming.
You know, I looked at all the
and ENS and handshake and
error and stuff and working
should be built on Bitcoin.
Bitcoin's by far the strongest
And it's in my opinion the
I know there's problems with
of miners and stuff, but it's,
Ethereum, which is really hard
the whole blockchain.
Like a lot of people are
party, like Infura and stuff
So I wanted something, I
in the security of Bitcoin.
And so we spent a year and a
protocol that's built on
to Bitcoin and leaves a really
small footprint on the blockchain.
But it's a decentralized
own their name and use it for
have to ask permission.
So yeah, we're launching that
days.
And yeah, I'm really excited
So let's say you purchase and
what would you, would it be
buy or what are people buying
where can they use it?
Any name can go up for.
There's an auction system, so
out.
Like some other protocols had
just allowed anybody to
So basically they all got
Like you couldn't get a good
had registered them all.
But we, so we have an auction
like if you want Josh or if
like you know, Bitcoin or like
it up for auction and there's
rolls out the 10 auctions with
They, every day they go into a
a chance to bid during those
bid with Bitcoin to get that
whoever has the highest bid
own it and yeah, to use it.
I mean we've, we've, if you
to spaces protocol.org and our
have a way to configure it
lot of different ways you
I mean, you know, you could
for that, or you could use it
Like I think a really great
Because right now everybody's
my in pub or like my key or
string, you know, Wouldn't it
just.
You could just find me at like
And so I think that's really a
I mean, there's other things
could send Bitcoin to at Josh
whatever and you know, sending
But yeah, there's a lot of.
Anything that ties a name to
to memorize.
You know, naming is like
a long time.
Like cities, instead of having
geolocation coordinates, you
name.
And like, instead of like
you know, whatever, you're
name, a surname and like, so
valuable and used all the time.
Just like money and you shouldn't.
Yeah, there shouldn't be a need.
It's one way that's like
People have controlled people
affected things.
Like.
So, yeah, like people should
So that's.
Anyway, that's.
I have really strong
I think it's so valuable that
And if it's not our protocol,
be something else that does it eventually.
So what would it look like?
Let's just, you know, have
let's say Josh.
So I would, if it's not
know, it's not technically
auction, it would be live for
name Josh.
And then at the end, let's say
of have that direct to
Yeah.
How exactly would that work?
And then could it be kind of
locations I want to send
What would that look like?
Yeah, I mean, right away, like
Spaces client, our Space D
bid in auctions and open
Like right away I could send
Like I could just send it.
And so that's the first like
We also released some open
set it up with DNS and that's
DNS to that wouldn't be stored
It's stored in like a peer to
The library that we have is
It's in our GitHub repository.
But yeah, so, and also an
build it in a scalable way so
on Bitcoin.
But you can do subspaces.
It's kind of like traditional
and stuff.
Well, you can get top level
There's a limited number of
like at Bitcoin and the syntax
So it's like you could get at
or at nostr or at Bitcoin and
those.
And each subspace we've
decentralized.
So not even you as the owner
or do anything to the subspace itself.
So if I had Mike at Bitcoin,
It's completely mine and.
But I.
But so you can turn it into a business.
You could sell like that and
You could have millions under.
At Bitcoin, millions of subspaces.
And it doesn't the we did it
it's all verifiable with a hash.
Like so there's very minimal
blockchain, but it's anchored
So yeah.
And who do you primarily see
Would this mostly be
something that larger
of?
And maybe in each case, how
Well, I think I could see
now online, it's all
So I see.
You know, even just if it was
that as very valuable because
want.
Nobody can, nobody can
But also like usernames, I
like for social media.
Like you could own a name and
Like Noster, you know, if you
publish content under that name.
People can find you there and
It's yours.
So that's another use case.
I mean the other one is like
So that right now a lot of
And there's even like a
for human readable wallet addresses.
But right now it's using DNS, which.
So like a registrar.
I mean, I know I worked in the
it's like a registrar, a registry.
Like I can.
People can.
A lot of people have access to
So if you're accepting
are taking a risk because if
you know, an employee at a
address or something, so.
Or they could just take the
taking.
Money.
It's like GoFundMe, you know,
or whatever had that boycott
GoFundMe was like, you know what?
We're not all that money you
to other charities and stuff is.
So it would be much, wouldn't
like send it to truckers at
they got, you know, whoever
and nobody can enter, nobody
If someone wants to take
what would you recommend them
I guess in particular, if you
could take advantage of as
But what would be a strategic
using the Spaces protocol in
Well, I think first you want
top level space.
So I would go to
software.
We have a command line wallet
and install the wallet.
We're also going to have a GUI
Maybe at release we'll have
So it'll be much easier for
command line.
But yeah, get a wallet and
Get a name.
I think early on there's going
So you probably be able to get
later on if it becomes more popular.
So I think getting a name
per day, so there's only going
So they're kind of rare.
So anyway, getting a name I
we're gonna, we're gonna have
we'll do all the work so that
So if you get a good top level
bitcoin, crypto or something
up so people could get like
it so you could earn money
And so I think that's another
I would also love it if like
know, integrating it into
that.
And we have people on our
to help and who have been helping.
So that's another good place
You know, if you have any
you go to spaces,
telegram link in the top corner.
You can click there and join
This is going to be a slight pivot.
But one of the interesting
I was looking at your bio for
early on in the Lightning Network.
And so I think it'd be
on being in so early on
I don't think I was in Bitcoin
about Bitcoin at the time.
So I don't know how quickly
Network bandwagon.
What was it like being in, on
days and are there any
to spaces or is it too
as analogies?
No, I think it's good.
I mean, yeah, Lightning,
well, it had a lot of buzz and
It was like another layer that
and stuff.
So it was really exciting,
So you know, being a
I, I wanted to try it out.
So I, I mean I downloaded
I, you know, was like on their
they were really helpful and
and stuff.
So I mean it's, it's cool.
I mean that's, you know,
Bitcoin.
It's like this hacker spirit
building this, you know, we're
So I think it's.
Yeah, I think it's great.
Just like jumping in, just
figuring, you know, figuring
And I think it's the same with Spaces.
Like, you know, there's people
like installing it and
something new.
So then I also saw that you
to purchase a physical item on
Can you go into detail as to
purchased?
I had, yeah, I had a node set
And like you couldn't use
I think the only thing you could.
One server hosting company
But then Blockstream set up a
and stuff.
And right when the store
away and then I emailed them
goods were being sold for
So I just emailed them and
And they said no, I was third.
But so, and I, and I'm pretty
don't know who was second.
But yeah, I still have the
That's cool.
And one thing we didn't, I
spaces is that the only way
like from what I've checked
Can you use dollars as well or
with.
Bitcoin if you're doing the
if, and that's for top level spaces.
Eventually we're going to set
you know, people to sell their
I don't know.
I think at first it'll just be
without a third party.
But also subspaces like if you
whatever and you decide to
you could buy that for.
So you could buy like Josh at
credit card or something like that.
Well, any final thoughts
It's been, it's been interesting.
It's one of those things where
People are going to be getting
There's always opportunities
looking into it a little bit
But any final thoughts before
and where you'd like for
conversation?
Yeah, just check out
on Twitter if you go to
name to my Twitter.
But yeah, but yeah, thanks for
It's great to talk to you and thanks.
Great.
Well, Mike, thank you so much
It's been a pleasure.
Yeah, me too.
Well, friends, it's a wrap.
Thanks so much for listening
Show.
If you want to reach out to
links down in the show notes.
And be sure to check out
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