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You've had a dynamic where money has become freer than free.

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We talk about a Fed just gone nuts.

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All the central banks going nuts.

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So it's all acting like safe haven.

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I believe that in a world where central bankers are tripping over themselves to devalue their currency, Bitcoin wins.

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In the world of fiat currencies, Bitcoin is the victor.

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I mean, that's part of the bull case for Bitcoin.

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If you're not paying attention, you probably should be.

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Jesse Schrader, Bitcoin just passed $69,000, but it's back down below.

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How are you, sir?

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Doing great, Marty.

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Despite the Bitcoin price, we should be higher, but in due time.

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Well, as they say, building happens in the bear markets.

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That's what we're here to talk about today.

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You guys have been building at Amboss.

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Yeah, nonstop building. I think it's five years in the making. It really has all built up to this, to this moment where Bitcoin can become the medium of exchange.

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Before we talk about RailsX and sort of MCP server plugin you guys have built for the agentic economy, let's talk about the history of Amboss.

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Like, why did you start the company? What was the initial idea? How has it evolved over the last five years?

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And on top of that, what has Bitcoin done in parallel that has enabled you to build out Amboss?

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Kind of what got me into Bitcoin was that it was an alternative to the banking system.

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where the customers of the banks, you know, aren't beholden to the banking policies anymore.

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Instead, we have Bitcoin, which is freedom. But then I went to go use Bitcoin to actually pay for

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something. And it was a horrible experience. I ended up paying $60 in transaction fees.

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And I was using overdraft.com, which was like one of the few places where you could spend Bitcoin.

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at the time. This was like late 2017. And my transaction didn't arrive in the 10 to 15 minutes

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that they had allotted simply because a block didn't come in and the transaction got rejected.

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So they ended up refunding my money and had to make me send it again. So pay another $60 transaction

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fee. And I was listening to a ton of Andrea Sanzanopoulos at the time. So he was talking

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about something called the lightning network. So I started experimenting. And in that process,

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I got connected with Anthony Pottevin, who created Thunderhub. He was like one of the first UIs

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that you had on for running a lightning node.

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And we got chatting in a Telegram group

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like as two anonymous plebs that were building the space.

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And he saw that like I was customer support for Thunderhub.

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And so he reached out to, you know,

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explore starting a company

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and building out lightning network tools.

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so that was really the genesis of it and so i imagine this around like 2018 when the lightning

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network was just launched and very rudimentary at that stage yeah this was like the only thing

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that you could spend lightning on was feeding chickens with poyofeed.com oh i remember that

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i remember that i fed that chicken this chicken they well they did um so that was like that was

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the major retailer on lightning, proving the micro payments point from from day one, but it's it's

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evolved so much since then. And really, it was like command line tools, the lightning torch had just

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happened. Folks were running Raspberry Pis, they were blowing up. But things have matured so so much

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more. And now, like, now, like the protocol development, things have like matured through

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like the ordinals explosion and now we've got taproot assets that that are coming to the lightning

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network yeah well before we get into taproot assets when you guys have built rails x i think

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it's important to to since you've been along for this journey of the maturation of the lightning

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network and emboss playing a role in making it easier to use a lightning network i i think that's

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And one thing, and I just was talking to a Bitcoiner earlier today, it's like we do a bad job of setting expectations.

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And I think the Lightning Network is one of the prime examples where it launched and everybody's like, yeah, we have instant settlements with very low fee transactions.

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And the medium exchange use case has been solved after the Lightning Network's launch.

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This was in 2018, and we all came to learn that the Lightning Network is a distributed protocol built on top of another distributed protocol, and Rome is not built in a day.

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So with that in mind, like in terms of the maturation and the development of the protocol, what has happened that has enabled things like taproot assets and now what we're seeing with this sort of flurry of other second layer protocols that are using lightning as this connective tissue?

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Yeah, I think kind of like SegWit for one was the soft fork that kind of made Lightning Network possible by fixing transaction malleability.

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malleability. And then the next one was taproot. And so getting consensus around that piece and

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getting a successful soft fork into Bitcoin was one of those pieces. And the Lighting Labs team

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really did some technical wizardry to be able to figure out how you could contain UTXOs within

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UTXOs and introduce additional assets that are minted on Bitcoin in an extremely chain efficient

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way. So this isn't going to be spamming the blockchain because these assets are meant for

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lightning. They are on-chain assets, but the purpose of them is so that they are lightning

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compatible, which we know is extremely chain efficient because we're seeing it today because

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there's hardly any fees on Bitcoin today, yet there's so much commerce that's still happening

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where we've got, you know, Coinbase, it's making up a dominant portion of its transactions. We got

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integrations with Kraken, Binance, like the whole ecosystem has developed around this. And at this

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point, we've got 28% of all retailers that can accept Lightning. So it really has immersed itself

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in the digital economy and in a scalable way.

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So that change to the protocol enabled us to start bringing new assets

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or new data types into Bitcoin.

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And then talking about liquidity management, channel management,

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I think it's one problem that you guys have worked hard to solve.

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How much have we learned over the last seven, eight years about this interoperable distributed protocol on top of Bitcoin, how it works and how it should be managed if you're trying to use it?

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Yeah.

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After starting to run a Lightning node, I realized that getting connected and connected well on Lightning was a challenge.

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And so we were just doing this via telegram where I would say I'm a well connected node.

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I'll connect to you in exchange for payment.

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So you pay me and I'll open a channel to you and we'll agree upon a duration.

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So I was doing this already just via chat.

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and that was the precursor to us creating a marketplace so that other folks could be able to

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sell channels which was like one of those key pieces because at the time there was one ml.com

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which was like one of the first lightning network explorers and i i have i had a chat going with

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with Tony, who created Thunderhub, and, you know, Amboss co founder and CTO.

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That the one ml experience was terrible, it was all like, it wasn't dark mode. So it was blinding

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to look at, for us all of this basement dweller, lightning node operators. And it was really

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difficult to get the information. And there was no way to easily contact other people and get them

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to open up lighting channels to you. I mean, and that's how you receive payments. So we decided

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that there has to be a market here. So we created magma, which is now the largest liquidity

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marketplace on lightning. We've got 99% market share. At this point, it's growing 20% month over

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month. And it solves a real problem, just getting connected on lightning so that you can receive

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payments very simply. Yeah, that's a massive pain. And again, like talking about growing pains and

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setting expectations, I think in 2018, it's like lightning's launched. We got Segwit transaction

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availability solved where we spin up this network and payments are solved. But along the way, you

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learn, oh, channel management is not trivial. You need a two-sided marketplace to make it

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easier. You need to bring liquidity to the network. And then along the way too, as Lightning scaled

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and matured, learned other lessons. It was like, oh, maybe I don't need this much capital

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locked up in these channels, which leads to a lot of misconceptions in the broader public.

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They'll look at whatever it is, 4,700, 5,000 Bitcoin locked in Lightning, and then looked at

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something like wrap Bitcoin on Ethereum, it has tens of thousands of coins locked up and say,

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well, lightning is not having the success that it is. This is, but it's like, well,

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the way these payment channels work, you can actually do a lot more with a lot less. And so

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capital efficiency is something that the lightning network has gotten extremely good at over the last

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three years specifically. Yeah, it's a great point because lightning is extremely capital efficient.

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You're connecting it to a network.

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So you've got a single connection and that's kind of becomes a nexus.

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So you can reach anywhere in Lightning in just a few amount of hops.

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So you could reach the 15,000 or so nodes out there in four hops or less quite easily.

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You really don't need a whole bunch of extra capital.

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And that means that to handle the level of commerce that we're seeing on Lightning today, which we're we're estimating it over 10 billion dollars annually is flowing through Lightning.

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That means that the entire balance of that's locked in Lightning is cycling twice monthly.

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because we've got, you know, $500 million of capital in Lightning,

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which means it's super, super chain efficient, super capital efficient.

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We really just have liquidity sloshing back and forth.

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That's generating fees for the Lightning node operators

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and the ones that are well positioned, especially.

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Yeah.

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$10 billion a year.

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We need to pump that number.

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Do you think that number is going to go up moving forward?

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I gotta say, these are the numbers. I mean, it's already growing, but these are the numbers before agentic payments really take off and before stable coins get involved, which are both massive drivers. So I'm incredibly bullish on where we're headed with this, even before those things were growing.

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yeah well let's hop into it taproot assets uh for anybody who's listening out there that's

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completely unaware of what that um that phrase means at all let's let's do a a high level explain

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it like i'm five what are they why do they exist what are they competing with and how

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are they implemented um within bitcoin and the lighting network yeah so in order to create a

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taproot asset you're going to construct a specific bitcoin transaction that says

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what asset you're creating how many of these tokens exist and what group are they part of

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so that means you could do an initial burn or a initial mint of this asset bring it to bitcoin

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and then you can do subsequent mints or subsequent burns on that to control how much of this asset is

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created. And the real purpose of this is that you can create a token and then have it backed by

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something outside of Bitcoin or another blockchain or whatever. The thing is, it's a token. And of

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course, you're going to be introducing trust assumptions in whatever is backing it. I think

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Genius Act and whatnot have done a lot of things to support how this should be done. But at the

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technical level, it's creating a new token, how many of them exist on Bitcoin, and making it

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provable that there's only so many of these assets in existence. And so I think that's

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I think people hear that and are like, okay,

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is Pump.Fun coming to Bitcoin?

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Is the shitcoin casino coming to the Lightning Network?

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Are we enabling this proliferation of what many Bitcoiners,

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myself included, would deem to be sort of casino-like games?

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Or in your view, I mean, you mentioned stablecoins,

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and Tether has publicly stated that they're leaning into this.

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Like, is it going to be something like stable coins?

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Obviously, real world assets is a big meme tokenizing real world assets this cycle.

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How do you envision this this playing out in for stable coins specifically?

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What is the benefit of minting and issuing and transacting with these stable coins over lightning compared to something like Tron or Solana or whatever they're running on today?

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Sure.

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So Solana might be easier to issue some of these assets, especially any of these crypto casino tokens.

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For Bitcoin specifically, what makes sense is for us to focus on what's meaningful for finance and settlement.

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So I think that's where stablecoins fit the best.

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Because minting and burning is cheap today on Bitcoin.

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But we know that the global financial system is coming to Bitcoin and we have to be extremely chain efficient.

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So if you want to introduce these other types of casino tokens, I wouldn't bother doing that on Bitcoin itself.

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I would really focus on stable coins because what you paying for is a blockchain that can be stopped that has extremely high uptime

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Like there's a reason that we we build on Bitcoin itself, because

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it does have that full decentralization. And we've got the

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most decentralized layer two built on top of it, which is

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lightning. So I'd focus things as much as possible on stable

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coins. We may see other things like real world assets, tokenized gold, etc. But I think where

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we see the most momentum and where we need lightning scalability is on stable coins,

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especially US dollar stable coins. Yeah. And so my vaunted co-host of Rabbit Hole Recap,

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Matt Odell, he's been a longtime banger of tap ass and stable coins on lightning specifically.

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and his argument, and I can see it,

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I think it's a valid argument,

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but I think you're the perfect person

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to play devil's advocate here

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is table coins benefit from the centralization

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of networks like Tron and Solana,

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the relative centralization,

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and trying to introduce them

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to a truly decentralized layer two and Lightning.

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You sort of get the worst of both worlds

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where you have to play in this world that's distributed,

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you have all this channel management,

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you have wallet compatibility considerations

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to think about what is the steel man case

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for issuing and transacting with stable coins

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on Lightning specifically?

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If you're going to create a new token,

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it will be centralized.

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You're going to have one set of assets and liabilities.

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You want to be looking at one balance sheet.

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You don't want to look at a ton of them.

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I think things that I find interesting might be like Caitlin Long's tokenized deposits,

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where those could become taproot assets.

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And so you could have something that is on the Lightning Network being traded that's backed by one bank that has solid assets and liabilities that match up.

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So I think there is a centralized component to this.

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And you do want to have one person that you can summon into a courtroom to answer for the assets and liabilities not matching up.

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I don't think you want to be in a fully decentralized system trying to seek out individual parties that are behind a single asset.

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For Bitcoin, it's a different story because this is an asset without an issuer.

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It is fundamentally different, which is why that Bitcoin is superior to any of these other tokens.

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And, you know, I was just in El Salvador.

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I heard Paolo from Tether talk about this.

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The guy is a Bitcoiner and also witnessed, hey, you know, we created this token.

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It's a US dollar stable coin.

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It's kind of a dumb thing.

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However, it has extreme product market fit because the world's demand for dollars is immense.

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But it doesn't need to be an issue where like it, it could be, it could be a government.

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I think, you know, all of us are terrified of CBDCs.

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However, I'm less terrified of them if they're on Bitcoin itself, because you don't have that censorship ability on Bitcoin itself.

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It's a different story.

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Yeah, I saw Paolo speak at the Bitcoin Policy Institute event in June.

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And it was funny how he described the recreation of Tether.

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It was like somebody asked us to build it.

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And we said, OK, we'll build it, like sort of hand waved it.

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No way. Maybe this will get a $100 million market cap, but we have the capacity and the ability to do it, so we'll go do this.

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Obviously, it's turned into, I don't know what its latest market cap is, somewhere north of $180 billion, I think.

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They're probably the most capital-efficient company that's ever existed in terms of profit per employee.

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and obviously they're one of the, like it or not,

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one of the most important companies in the world right now.

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And to your point, like product market fit really proved itself out.

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Yeah, I think proof is in the pudding.

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Overall, people want dollars,

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and Tether found a way to support the U.S. government

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And I mean, in many ways, at finding a buyer for all of the government's debt through purchasing treasuries, tokenizing them and delivering them to the rest of the world.

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And I think the Trump administration has really figured this out to recognize this does help U.S. interests and has been a big part of why the U.S. is now embracing stable coins, because it does solve a problem.

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it fines the buyers for the debt that otherwise would not be attractive because the dollar has

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incredible brand name recognition and is deeply liquid. So Freaks, if you've been listening for a

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00:21:54,548 --> 00:21:58,628
while, you've probably heard us all talk about BitKey. It's a Bitcoin wallet built for people

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00:21:58,628 --> 00:22:02,668
who want self-custody to actually fit into their lives. BitKey is a private multi-sig wallet that

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00:22:02,668 --> 00:22:05,988
removes the biggest point of failure in traditional self-custody, the seed phrase, no ceremony,

220
00:22:06,328 --> 00:22:10,188
nothing to hide, and no single mistake that can put your Bitcoin at risk. We all know things get

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00:22:10,188 --> 00:22:15,108
lost. I lose things all the time. Phones get replaced. Life happens. BitKey specifically is

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00:22:15,108 --> 00:22:19,068
designed so your Bitcoin stays secure and recoverable without demanding constant attention or

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00:22:19,068 --> 00:22:23,728
expertise because it's built for the long term. Inheritance is built in so your Bitcoin can move

224
00:22:23,728 --> 00:22:28,248
securely into the next generation. It's Bitcoin self-custody built for real life and for February

225
00:22:28,248 --> 00:22:33,368
only for you freaks, okay? February only. You got 28 days, not a leap year. I'm pretty sure. 28 days.

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00:22:34,068 --> 00:22:40,908
You listeners, TFTC listeners can get BitKey for $99 using code TFTC99 at bitkey.world.

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00:22:41,188 --> 00:22:43,368
That's B-I-T-K-E-Y dot world.

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00:22:43,728 --> 00:22:48,188
Use the code TFTC99 and you're going to get a BitKey for $99.

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00:22:48,648 --> 00:22:49,208
Sup freaks.

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00:22:49,588 --> 00:22:53,988
This rep was brought to you by our good friends at Ligos Finance Celsius BlockFi FTX.

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00:22:54,068 --> 00:22:55,508
They took your Bitcoin and gambled it away.

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Ligos can't because they never hold it.

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Non-custodial lending on Bitcoin's base layer.

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Your keys, your collateral.

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00:23:01,328 --> 00:23:02,628
It's verifiable on-chain.

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00:23:02,628 --> 00:23:06,228
Go to ligos.finance. Tell them that TFTC sent you.

237
00:23:06,508 --> 00:23:10,848
So let's talk about RailsX. Why does Dex is so hot right now?

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Been hot for what, like five, six years now after Uniswap launched.

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Many people are looking at Hyperliquid right now as a competitor to exchanges like Coinbase.

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And if you look at the profitability per employee at Hyperliquid compared to Coinbase, they're doing far better.

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It seems like there's product market fit outside of Bitcoin or decentralized exchange.

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Why does something like RailsX, a DEX on Lightning make sense?

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I think this is going to be the first DEX without its own token.

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The token is Bitcoin.

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And we have other assets that can now be traded on Bitcoin via the Lightning Network.

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So just about Lightning's efficiency, now we're going from blockchain level efficiency, which we know does not scale.

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You look at Tron, they're seeing $3 to $6 per transaction.

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And we're moving to the level of a data network, which is Lightning.

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So it performs much similar to that.

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So that means that we can have a decentralized system with no new token created that is operating like the Internet in terms of scale so that we can achieve extremely low spreads.

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And you can have a full decentralized economy that is all self-custody.

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Each of the players that will use RailsX can bring their own infrastructure.

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We can help them set up their own infrastructure.

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They can buy and sell digital assets peer to peer and choose their counterparties, choose their own policies.

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Like this is the decentralization that I wanted to see when I was, you know, in a call center listening to folks be beholden to a bank's adversarial policies when this is about self-determination for Bitcoin.

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This is about sovereignty.

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This is about freedom.

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to transact with who you want, associate with who you want

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and be able to trade seamlessly.

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Yeah. How did you guys land on the idea for Rails X?

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And beyond that, like,

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let's talk about the implementation.

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How does it actually work? What's happening on the lead?

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Yeah, it solves a problem for us internally.

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The thing is, we back in May,

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we announced Rails, which is a yield service.

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So we got RailsX that's doing trading peer-to-peer.

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And for Rails, it's a Bitcoin yield service where you keep self-custody.

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And the point of introducing Rails was that we needed incentive alignment between the Bitcoin treasury companies and Bitcoin's adoption as a medium of exchange.

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We wanted all that yield-seeking behavior to be saying, I want Bitcoin payments, and I want Bitcoin to be the medium of exchange.

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Because that's honest yield.

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That's no lending.

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That's no rate hypothecation.

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But for routing, you've got Bitcoin that's sloshing between your channels.

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And you're collecting fees when that happens.

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However, when you introduce a new asset into this, the sloshing that's happening, that means that your portfolio is shifting around.

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So if I'm routing a whole bunch of stable coins to some business that wants to receive stable coins, that means that me as the next peer over, I'm accumulating Bitcoin and I'm losing my stable coin balance.

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So if I allow these customers who are using Rails to keep self-custody, then I can't rebalance their channels for them.

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So because we introduced that limitation and we thought self-custody is important, then we needed some other force in there to rebalance the channels for them between the assets and keep their portfolios relatively constant where they can have sloshing back and forth.

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So what we did for Rails is we started generating price quotes, which is what Lighting Labs would call the edge node service.

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So Rails as a yield service in multi-assets, they're quoting prices between assets.

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And now those prices get piped into Rails X.

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And so for Rails X, you see all these different prices being quoted.

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So a RailsX user can do simple buy low, sell high between different nodes on the network,

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and they are rebalancing the channels and capturing arbitrage opportunities for accumulations and shortages of assets within the Lightning Network.

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Okay, I need to get my agentic bot in this network.

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Everybody's focused on Polymarket.

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RailsX is here.

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There's probably better arbitrage opportunities there in the early days.

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You know, I think the the bot play is like one of the first things that came up, like as soon as we built this, because it's all just going to be circular rebalances in Lightning, but across assets.

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And it is something that is completely programmable, but it solves a problem for the people that are seeking yield and the people that are receiving payments across assets and want low spreads.

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So it is an open market approach to solving multi assets in lightning.

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what do you think this does

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for capacity on the lightning network

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obviously we're talking about lightning's capital efficiency earlier

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but let's just run down the thought experiment

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people wake up and say oh

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why would I want to have my stable coins run on Tron or Solano

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when they can run on the lightning network

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and be compatible with bitcoin invoices

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maybe at the end of the day too

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and you see a ton of activity flood to the lightning network obviously it's very capital

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efficient but that capital efficiency will hit a limit which would dictate that more capital needs

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to be locked up in channels and so in terms of the growth of channel capacity and bitcoin

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locked on the network what's that going to do um what effect is something like rails x and

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taproot asset that's taking off going to have on that? And yeah, just broadly, where do we go?

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Where do you see this going from here? I think the capacity, the Bitcoin public capacity

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may not increase all that much. Interesting. So there's a couple of reasons for that is because

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all of the taproot asset channels are private. So if you want to continue to use the lighting

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network, you say, I don't want to deal with any other assets or any other tokens, you can continue

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to operate purely in Bitcoin. This does not affect you. The only thing that changes is

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like the volume of transactions that are flowing through. So we're going to see much more cycling

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that's happening. And I think just this week, Voltage announced the million dollar payment

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on lightning. So huge achievement for them. I think a massive proof point to say,

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you know, lightning is no longer for for micro payments. The max size channel that you can do

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on lightning is 21 million Bitcoin. So there's really no protocol limitation on how large you

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can go. So that means that as this takes off, we're going to see much larger channels that

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are created to be able to settle larger payments that are happening across assets.

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Because long term, this becomes the foreign exchange market.

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If everybody's issuing their own stable coins, which ones are going to take off, there's

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going to be much more of like macro level countrywide speculation on the performance

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of these tokens, which are sovereign currencies.

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And overall, it's going to mean much more commerce because foreign exchange market is massive.

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They do nine point seven trillion dollars every single day settled in that market.

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It's the whole market.

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And that means that Bitcoin is going to take that sector.

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And Bitcoin, whenever its price goes up, that means fewer of the tokens move around on lightning because it's like the pipes just explode.

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for how much value can be settled.

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00:32:28,048 --> 00:32:32,048
So overall, it's positioned to be long-term bullish,

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and that could mean that it can remain extremely capital efficient,

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00:32:37,048 --> 00:32:51,816
but we will see shortages and when there are shortages of Bitcoin in Lightning that means the yields spike up So overall much more routing activity Yeah that another thing we forgot to mention

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with the capital efficiency number go up.

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00:32:54,016 --> 00:32:56,736
Just makes it so you have to send less SATs per payment.

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00:32:56,736 --> 00:32:57,956
Sup Freaks, this rep was brought to you

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by good friends at Silent.

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340
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I got the silent card holder.

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346
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I was using Ridge Wallet because it's secured against RFID signal jacking.

347
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Silent, the card holder does the same thing.

348
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It's much sleeker.

349
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Fits in my pocket much easier.

350
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I also have the Faraday phone sleeve, which you can put a hardware wallet in.

351
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We're actually using it for our keys at the house too.

352
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There's been a lot of robberies.

353
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They have essential Faraday slings, Faraday backpacks.

354
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It's a Bitcoin company.

355
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They're running on a Bitcoin standard.

356
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They have a Bitcoin treasury.

357
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They accept Bitcoin via strike.

358
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361
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What's up, Freaks? When you take Bitcoin seriously, you start with custody. You want

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to control your keys, avoid single points of failure, and make sure your savings cannot

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That means about one out of every 200 Bitcoin sits inside an Unchained vault.

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368
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369
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372
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376
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That's TFTC10 at unchained.com.

377
00:34:57,156 --> 00:35:00,296
I love the confidence with which you're saying all this.

378
00:35:00,716 --> 00:35:02,756
Bitcoin is going to take the FX market.

379
00:35:02,896 --> 00:35:03,736
This is happening.

380
00:35:03,736 --> 00:35:07,156
this seems very underappreciated right now.

381
00:35:07,496 --> 00:35:12,996
I would argue most people are completely unaware that this is even possible on Bitcoin right now.

382
00:35:13,256 --> 00:35:14,856
You're boots on the ground.

383
00:35:14,956 --> 00:35:17,416
Obviously, you're on the cutting edge of all this.

384
00:35:17,536 --> 00:35:22,016
I saw you in person in New York earlier this week making the rounds.

385
00:35:22,016 --> 00:35:27,696
What would you say to the relative awareness of something like Tappard assets

386
00:35:27,696 --> 00:35:33,716
or not even Tappard assets specifically, but the fact that this is possible on Bitcoin?

387
00:35:33,736 --> 00:35:40,756
are people beginning to wake up to it when you give the pitch are you seeing people recognize

388
00:35:40,756 --> 00:35:45,936
the the benefits doing it this way as opposed to on another change or a combination of chains

389
00:35:45,936 --> 00:35:53,476
how and to that point like how long do you think it takes for the market to wake up to this

390
00:35:53,476 --> 00:36:00,276
as far as as far as the adoption goes um lightning is going to solve one specific use case in pockets

391
00:36:00,276 --> 00:36:07,576
So Bitcoin Beach in El Salvador, it's like a great example of, you know, adoption happening in one place.

392
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And for Amboss, we're a middleware provider.

393
00:36:13,216 --> 00:36:15,796
So we're operating at the liquidity market side.

394
00:36:16,576 --> 00:36:22,936
But then we have folks like Voltage that are solving payments API adoption.

395
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So they're mapping to the user cases.

396
00:36:25,836 --> 00:36:34,176
so all the lightning network activity is going to happen in the background so all we're going to see

397
00:36:34,176 --> 00:36:40,976
is widespread adoption of the lightning network invoice so this is going to do the settlement

398
00:36:40,976 --> 00:36:48,456
across the network it it won't matter what currency that you're transacting in so we just

399
00:36:48,456 --> 00:36:52,996
have something that's standard that's bitcoin compatible whatever currency you want to send

400
00:36:52,996 --> 00:36:56,556
whatever currency you want to receive, it's all using the exact same invoice.

401
00:36:57,756 --> 00:37:03,936
And what we're seeing from Voltage is they're answering the needs of iGaming first,

402
00:37:04,676 --> 00:37:10,656
which they are having an immense amount of trouble getting a simple bank account.

403
00:37:11,696 --> 00:37:17,516
And Stripe and the other payment processors don't want to serve them because those customers

404
00:37:17,516 --> 00:37:24,496
are they have incredibly high fraud rates. They're getting killed by chargebacks.

405
00:37:25,276 --> 00:37:32,616
So Bitcoin is there for them to serve like that market. And they're doing incredible volumes,

406
00:37:32,616 --> 00:37:40,816
all of the poly market stuff, all of the like online gambling type of things that is going to

407
00:37:40,816 --> 00:37:47,036
get served by Bitcoin, by lightning payments, because it can do the micropayments. It doesn't

408
00:37:47,036 --> 00:37:54,456
have chargebacks and it's more decentralized. It can operate in many of the underserved markets.

409
00:37:57,096 --> 00:38:03,016
And so when you said everything's going to be abstracted away to a Lightning invoice,

410
00:38:03,116 --> 00:38:10,396
you can pay in whatever currency you deem necessary or prefer, does that necessitate

411
00:38:10,396 --> 00:38:16,516
local stable coins or like are we talking something like you're just going to pipe into

412
00:38:16,516 --> 00:38:22,016
like the like what strikes doing with like you can send or cash app like dollars to bitcoin

413
00:38:22,016 --> 00:38:28,376
is like integrations like that that interface with the banking system itself a combination of the two

414
00:38:28,376 --> 00:38:34,576
yeah like we'll still have on and off ramps and those on and off ramps that's what you'll where

415
00:38:34,576 --> 00:38:42,056
you'll have KYC, AML type of stuff. So if you want to move to the traditional financial system,

416
00:38:42,916 --> 00:38:48,616
but if we're operating purely on Bitcoin, then you don't need to touch the traditional financial

417
00:38:48,616 --> 00:38:55,816
financial system. You can continue to operate. So like that's where there's going to be some

418
00:38:55,816 --> 00:39:00,956
friction is when you want to go to a traditional bank account. However, if you've got tokens that

419
00:39:00,956 --> 00:39:07,636
are issued on Bitcoin. Now, you can trade peer to peer. You can start accepting currencies

420
00:39:07,636 --> 00:39:15,616
without needing a bank account anymore. And you've got something that is widely interoperable. So

421
00:39:15,616 --> 00:39:21,496
anywhere that accepts a lightning payment, then you could off ramp to a bank account.

422
00:39:23,016 --> 00:39:29,736
Yeah. I mean, it seems extremely profound. And again, it's like I'm banging my head.

423
00:39:29,736 --> 00:39:31,636
Why doesn't the market realize this yet?

424
00:39:31,736 --> 00:39:33,856
And obviously your answer is going to start in pockets,

425
00:39:33,856 --> 00:39:40,036
but it seems like we have accessibility to sci-fi tech.

426
00:39:42,596 --> 00:39:45,596
It's going to be flat, flat, flat, flat,

427
00:39:45,696 --> 00:39:46,896
and then it's going to be vertical.

428
00:39:47,376 --> 00:39:48,356
I mean, this is a gradually,

429
00:39:48,616 --> 00:39:51,616
then suddenly type of adoption for Bitcoin payments.

430
00:39:52,596 --> 00:39:52,756
Yeah.

431
00:39:53,336 --> 00:39:55,376
Who do you think, I mean, outside of Bitcoin Beach,

432
00:39:55,576 --> 00:39:57,716
like what, or maybe a better way to frame it is,

433
00:39:57,716 --> 00:39:59,716
what would your ideal...

434
00:39:59,736 --> 00:40:08,696
adopter look like? For us, massive volumes. If you want to be moving a ton of value and not have

435
00:40:08,696 --> 00:40:18,216
anyone looking over your shoulder to kind of say to slow you down in any type of way, then like

436
00:40:18,216 --> 00:40:24,356
lightning is what you should be using because it's incredibly scalable. You can also do

437
00:40:24,356 --> 00:40:30,756
micropayments. I think this is what makes sense for the machine economy. You want to have AI agents

438
00:40:30,756 --> 00:40:40,276
and your clod bot just running wild and making money for you or paying out money, hiring your

439
00:40:40,276 --> 00:40:47,216
fellow humans. That can happen on Lightning at scale because Lightning can do 40 million

440
00:40:47,216 --> 00:40:53,136
transactions per second. Well, any of these other chains like Solana, you know, it's going to cap

441
00:40:53,136 --> 00:41:01,256
out at 70,000 trades actions per second. Yeah. Well, you brought it up. The agentic economy,

442
00:41:01,356 --> 00:41:08,196
how big is this opportunity and how real is it? And most importantly, I'll just give this

443
00:41:08,196 --> 00:41:11,976
little preamble. I think a lot of Bitcoiners are just assuming, oh, the agents are going to

444
00:41:11,976 --> 00:41:16,996
choose Bitcoin because it's the best money. It's obvious. But if you've been playing with these

445
00:41:16,996 --> 00:41:23,696
tools, you realize that we're not at AGI or ASI yet, and they are very subservient to their

446
00:41:23,696 --> 00:41:30,656
masters and will do whatever you tell them. And so I think the onus is on Bitcoiners not to convince

447
00:41:30,656 --> 00:41:34,396
agents that Bitcoin is the best money, but the people actually controlling the agents that this

448
00:41:34,396 --> 00:41:43,216
is the best way to do it. But the opportunity is massive. Yeah, I think DeFi has already told us

449
00:41:43,216 --> 00:41:44,776
that Bitcoin is the favorite.

450
00:41:45,856 --> 00:41:47,416
That's like the same.

451
00:41:47,416 --> 00:41:49,716
It's the safe zone

452
00:41:49,716 --> 00:41:53,056
or you denominate your wins in defy

453
00:41:53,316 --> 00:41:55,216
in Bitcoin terms.

454
00:41:55,216 --> 00:41:58,056
Of course, you know, stable coins are probably

455
00:41:58,656 --> 00:42:00,856
second to that.

456
00:42:00,856 --> 00:42:03,476
Or, you know, maybe I'm maybe I'm wrong on that.

457
00:42:03,556 --> 00:42:06,176
Maybe people love stable coins as the first stop,

458
00:42:07,416 --> 00:42:10,456
but it's going to seek deep liquid markets.

459
00:42:10,456 --> 00:42:13,276
yeah

460
00:42:13,276 --> 00:42:17,416
and so

461
00:42:17,416 --> 00:42:19,836
thinking about equipping these agents

462
00:42:19,836 --> 00:42:20,676
I mean you guys

463
00:42:20,676 --> 00:42:23,396
released something for that too

464
00:42:23,396 --> 00:42:25,676
I think that's been fun to watch the last two weeks

465
00:42:25,676 --> 00:42:27,936
specifically as everybody has realized

466
00:42:27,936 --> 00:42:29,756
like oh maybe I should play around with OpenClaw

467
00:42:29,756 --> 00:42:31,816
and now they're realizing

468
00:42:31,816 --> 00:42:33,736
they're mapping

469
00:42:33,736 --> 00:42:35,656
the territory and realizing that these agents

470
00:42:35,656 --> 00:42:36,416
can spin up

471
00:42:36,416 --> 00:42:39,116
mine has a Phoenix D server

472
00:42:39,116 --> 00:42:43,276
and is able to LNURL auth into websites

473
00:42:43,276 --> 00:42:46,696
and then send Bitcoin and transact pretty autonomously.

474
00:42:47,996 --> 00:42:50,696
And it's been fun seeing you guys.

475
00:42:50,796 --> 00:42:56,476
I think I saw Magnolia, I think for their bank accounts.

476
00:42:56,576 --> 00:42:58,516
I didn't know that they have Bitcoin compatibility,

477
00:42:58,816 --> 00:43:02,396
but we've seen MoneyDevKit out.

478
00:43:03,056 --> 00:43:05,896
I think Bram Cranstein came out with something

479
00:43:05,896 --> 00:43:12,056
And that makes it easy to get your agent access to a Bitcoin wallet via Nostra Wallet Connect.

480
00:43:12,856 --> 00:43:19,636
And so we've had this explosion of skills in the Bitcoin space trying to equip agents, which has been fun to watch.

481
00:43:20,136 --> 00:43:21,096
Heck yeah.

482
00:43:21,476 --> 00:43:35,716
Yeah, we released the Magma MCP so that your AI agent can understand how to source liquidity so that you can access an open marketplace for liquidity.

483
00:43:35,896 --> 00:43:44,716
You're not going to be locked into one provider that might be behind some of these other LSP tools.

484
00:43:45,796 --> 00:43:50,136
So, yeah, you can access liquidity from anywhere on what makes sense.

485
00:43:50,376 --> 00:44:05,596
So the Magma MCP is like a step in that direction so that you can choose the right infrastructure, you know, whether it be Albi Hub or Voltage or an LDK node and source liquidity in a decentralized way.

486
00:44:05,896 --> 00:44:15,736
I need to teach my agent Martin bot how to I need to give it the magma MCP plugin.

487
00:44:16,816 --> 00:44:23,956
It's right. I opened the channel via a bolts submarine swap to async. It was rather expensive

488
00:44:23,956 --> 00:44:30,356
and it is going to have to it's very profitable right now. It's making some Bitcoin. It's going

489
00:44:30,356 --> 00:44:35,776
to have to rebalance channels and it would make sense to to plug into a liquidity pool that does

490
00:44:35,776 --> 00:44:44,016
efficiently right it does um it's it's straightforward for humans to do um but also

491
00:44:44,016 --> 00:44:49,216
now your agent can do it uh it's really just paying a lightning invoice yeah well that's the

492
00:44:49,216 --> 00:44:55,456
point i think matt and i've been talking about and others like the craziest thing of the explosion of

493
00:44:55,456 --> 00:45:01,776
this sort of harness on top of these llms has been i mean i would push back and say like yes

494
00:45:01,776 --> 00:45:17,536
It's easy for a human to use magma, but the humans that are using magma are people that are like on not on the cutting edge, but like understand Bitcoin, understand the lightning network, understand channel management, liquidity, inbound, outbound liquidity and all that.

495
00:45:17,536 --> 00:45:26,036
But I think the layman is never going to take their put in the effort to understand the intricacies of how this works and how to be capital efficient.

496
00:45:26,036 --> 00:45:36,016
And the beauty of this emerging agentic economy is that your computer can just learn how to do it and do it for you without you having to do the hard work.

497
00:45:37,176 --> 00:45:37,656
Exactly.

498
00:45:37,796 --> 00:45:42,016
And I think that's going to be massive for adoption and usage on the Lightning Network specifically.

499
00:45:43,976 --> 00:45:45,956
It's going to be huge.

500
00:45:45,956 --> 00:46:02,636
I mean, now we've got MCPs, which are like just forcing your AI to read the docs, read the manual and know how to use these tools and then be able to map those to the solution, which is, you know, earn money for your for your human.

501
00:46:04,616 --> 00:46:06,516
Yeah, well, let's get into that.

502
00:46:06,596 --> 00:46:13,896
Like, so when you're building this MCP, what is what are the docs where the the manuals that you're handing agents?

503
00:46:13,896 --> 00:46:23,216
yeah it really is uh just kind of teaching an agent how to use an api so overall you know

504
00:46:23,216 --> 00:46:30,556
what lightning invoice do you pay um and kind of what happens then who would like what types of

505
00:46:30,556 --> 00:46:39,136
authentication do you need in order to do this um it really is uh the two two or three api calls

506
00:46:39,136 --> 00:46:48,696
in order to order liquidity, but it would map into a larger set. So, you know, does your AI agent

507
00:46:48,696 --> 00:46:55,356
know how to run a Lightning node already? When does it need to purchase liquidity? That's where

508
00:46:55,356 --> 00:47:01,956
it would use the MCP portion. So it really is a small element of the overall stack, but it's an

509
00:47:01,956 --> 00:47:08,916
important one because that's the piece that gets you liquidity, which enables us to have a debt-free

510
00:47:08,916 --> 00:47:14,896
payment system that works for anyone, whether they be human or an AI.

511
00:47:15,996 --> 00:47:18,276
Have you been playing around with the AI tools a lot?

512
00:47:18,956 --> 00:47:28,056
I haven't myself. However, my team has. And overall, I'm seeing the productivity come out of

513
00:47:28,056 --> 00:47:38,336
it. That is massive. Any of these small elements that I see, like, on our, like, UI, that, you know,

514
00:47:38,336 --> 00:47:42,396
I would want to tweak or fix suddenly that it's on the table.

515
00:47:42,396 --> 00:47:46,716
That's a fun four minute project for them to do instead of spending a day on it.

516
00:47:47,056 --> 00:47:51,216
Um, this is a productivity accelerator.

517
00:47:51,816 --> 00:47:55,076
Um, we're in a completely different paradigm now.

518
00:47:56,316 --> 00:48:02,296
Well, as a founder, how does it, how's it changed how you view scaling your business?

519
00:48:02,296 --> 00:48:07,936
I just heard that Twitter is now a team of 30.

520
00:48:08,216 --> 00:48:10,456
30 people are running X.

521
00:48:11,436 --> 00:48:20,236
That tells me that there's incredibly lean teams that are able to take on the world.

522
00:48:21,176 --> 00:48:31,316
If you have good judgment, you now have rocket fuel added to your ability to execute that.

523
00:48:31,316 --> 00:48:38,316
if you execute if you have poor judgment now you become a slop cannon and are just I saw

524
00:48:38,316 --> 00:48:45,976
launching the garbage everywhere yeah you don't want to be a slop cannon don't be a slop cannon

525
00:48:45,976 --> 00:48:51,156
you want to be really thoughtful about how you're using these tools because they're

526
00:48:51,156 --> 00:48:57,456
incredibly powerful and you could be so much faster yeah yeah what was the the four quarters

527
00:48:57,456 --> 00:49:01,296
is like high agency, competent, top right,

528
00:49:01,296 --> 00:49:02,756
like you're going to be fine,

529
00:49:02,756 --> 00:49:14,044
but it like low agency incompetent you just going to be a slop cannon where previously before AI tools like if very low agency low competency you can hand them menial jobs but in the world of AI slop

530
00:49:14,044 --> 00:49:21,624
potential, they could really screw things up. It's true. Um, so, you know, we built,

531
00:49:21,844 --> 00:49:26,584
we built a great team. So overall, I'm, I'm loving how they're using these tools,

532
00:49:26,584 --> 00:49:32,644
because we're able to achieve way more, um, and deliver, deliver awesome products faster.

533
00:49:33,544 --> 00:49:53,504
Yeah. What, I mean, beyond what we've discussed today, Rails, RailsX, the MCP plugin, what are you looking forward to in the immediate and medium and long term future in terms of like product suites and just Bitcoin overall?

534
00:49:53,504 --> 00:49:55,244
What do you think needs to happen?

535
00:49:55,544 --> 00:49:59,624
I think, again, opining back to my comment earlier,

536
00:50:00,524 --> 00:50:03,544
or hearkening back to my comment earlier about the fact that I think,

537
00:50:05,004 --> 00:50:07,824
particularly in the last two years, Bitcoiners have gotten complacent in the sense,

538
00:50:07,904 --> 00:50:09,424
it's like, oh, it's built, it'll just happen.

539
00:50:09,644 --> 00:50:13,444
It's like, no, I think we need to get out there and really prove that it's worthwhile

540
00:50:13,444 --> 00:50:15,984
and you should be adopting this.

541
00:50:15,984 --> 00:50:24,784
what do you think needs to happen for for bitcoin to basically hit that tipping point where the

542
00:50:24,784 --> 00:50:29,704
mainstream doesn't look at it as some volatile ponzi scheme asset but something that has

543
00:50:29,704 --> 00:50:35,224
incredible inherent value that can really improve their lives and their businesses

544
00:50:35,224 --> 00:50:44,824
i i think um what i'll look forward to is you know bitcoin continuing to do what it does

545
00:50:44,824 --> 00:50:49,204
and be robust, reliable infrastructure.

546
00:50:50,204 --> 00:50:54,564
I think really that's, it's underpinning our value system.

547
00:50:55,064 --> 00:50:59,364
And it's going to be our rock going into the next years,

548
00:50:59,884 --> 00:51:01,904
which are going to be increasingly chaotic.

549
00:51:02,544 --> 00:51:05,324
While the rest of the world does what it does,

550
00:51:05,724 --> 00:51:08,644
Bitcoin will remain our steady hands.

551
00:51:09,904 --> 00:51:14,284
And I think that's like that most important foundation.

552
00:51:14,824 --> 00:51:43,384
And being that it's open source, and now that we're equipped with AI tools, the acceleration of development in order to be prepared for what's ahead, we just become more capable so that we can continue to be productive and continue to do good things based on solid fundamentals where I'm more bullish than ever on our future.

553
00:51:43,384 --> 00:52:09,584
And I think that'll pan out. I think people will start to realize the Bitcoin builders are the ones that last and they're not being distracted by a whole bunch of token incentives. They'll continue to build. I think that will long term really pan out for the venture capitalists within the space that are investing in Bitcoin companies. And we'll watch it play out.

554
00:52:09,584 --> 00:52:13,664
Thank you for that plug for venture capitalists there. It's much appreciated.

555
00:52:13,664 --> 00:52:32,284
Yeah. To your point, I think just like the long and steady brick by brick progression, just like staying the course is most important.

556
00:52:32,284 --> 00:52:48,484
I really like what you said about Bitcoin just being this reliable anchor as we go through this crazy, chaotic transition in the world where there's technology with AI and disruption that comes along with it, the geopolitics, the throw in the Epstein files, whatever's happening.

557
00:52:48,484 --> 00:52:56,684
And to your point, like I've always liked to explain Bitcoin and it's been described as a truth anchor and all this, but like visualize it to people.

558
00:52:56,884 --> 00:53:08,724
For some reason, I always had this weird visualization of Bitcoin that really harkens back to the first iteration of double entry accounting, which is where you would live in a town square.

559
00:53:08,884 --> 00:53:11,584
And then you'd go to the bank and you'd say, hey, I did a deal with him.

560
00:53:11,704 --> 00:53:15,904
I need you to change the debits and credits in our accounts to account for that.

561
00:53:15,904 --> 00:53:23,604
And Bitcoin is simply, instead of going to that bank in the middle of that town square, it's just like a beam of light streaming into the air.

562
00:53:23,884 --> 00:53:25,824
And that is like what you anchor into.

563
00:53:25,944 --> 00:53:26,904
And anybody can approach you.

564
00:53:26,944 --> 00:53:28,744
You don't have to talk to an individual.

565
00:53:28,924 --> 00:53:34,324
You just go up to that beam and you anchor the truth of your transaction into it.

566
00:53:34,484 --> 00:53:36,324
It's very esoteric, probably a little gay.

567
00:53:37,124 --> 00:53:43,364
But I think that visualization, it works for me at least.

568
00:53:43,364 --> 00:53:52,584
But to your point, having this stability, I don't think people really recognize the profound nature of this in these chaotic times.

569
00:53:52,584 --> 00:54:05,204
But being able to depend on Bitcoin to do what it does, produce a block roughly every 10 minutes, have a difficulty adjustment every 2016 blocks, have a subsidy halving every 210,000 blocks.

570
00:54:05,884 --> 00:54:12,724
That is incredibly value in a world in which things are changing rapidly around us.

571
00:54:13,364 --> 00:54:24,364
Kind of speaking to, you know, being a founder, one of the biggest risks that we can have is to get distracted and not be laser focused.

572
00:54:24,364 --> 00:54:29,324
So I deeply appreciate the Bitcoin or meme of laser focus.

573
00:54:29,744 --> 00:54:32,304
And I think Bitcoin in many ways embodies that.

574
00:54:32,304 --> 00:54:55,924
Like you said, in order to create that beam of light and Bitcoin become, in Dan Tapiero's words, be a truth machine, like what Bitcoin is doing is saying no to thousands upon thousands of garbage transactions that are out there to say, you know, no, this is not going to be part of the record.

575
00:54:55,924 --> 00:55:07,884
And only when you meet all of the stringent requirements of being provable, in fact, we know exactly where the money came from to make this transaction happen.

576
00:55:08,284 --> 00:55:12,044
Only then does it get approved to be part of the Bitcoin blockchain.

577
00:55:12,784 --> 00:55:14,944
And I think that is powerful.

578
00:55:15,164 --> 00:55:16,164
It's objective.

579
00:55:17,064 --> 00:55:22,164
And it gives Bitcoin what it needs to be to be that solid foundation.

580
00:55:22,864 --> 00:55:24,584
It's very simple, too.

581
00:55:24,584 --> 00:55:32,284
I think it's important to, I think it's another thing we've gotten away from, at least in the Bitcoin public sphere on X especially.

582
00:55:33,364 --> 00:55:38,224
These simple truths that exist within Bitcoin that are simple yet extremely powerful.

583
00:55:39,504 --> 00:55:54,484
If you're not abiding by the rules, if you don't have a UTXO, a valid UTXO with an amount of Bitcoin that can cover the transaction you're trying to make to a public address that actually exists and is compatible with the network as well, it's not going to happen.

584
00:55:54,584 --> 00:56:01,064
That's simple. It's relatively dumb from an engineering perspective, but it's extremely powerful.

585
00:56:02,664 --> 00:56:10,704
Yeah, I love it. Another aspect that, you know, like looking forward is really about privacy.

586
00:56:11,744 --> 00:56:19,524
I think we're seeing a lot of hand wringing of the stable coins, you know, talking about how they're going to incorporate privacy.

587
00:56:19,524 --> 00:56:28,724
but I think a lot of the stuff around Lightning and its ability to keep transaction level privacy

588
00:56:28,724 --> 00:56:36,724
is being undervalued when it may be that solution that the stablecoins need in order to protect

589
00:56:36,724 --> 00:56:42,144
transaction level privacy but still have things be fully accountable at the blockchain level.

590
00:56:43,224 --> 00:56:49,124
Let's jump into that. How would stablecoins running via Tappert assets over Lightning

591
00:56:49,124 --> 00:56:53,564
provide an individual actor with more privacy

592
00:56:53,564 --> 00:56:57,864
compared to doing it on Tron or Solana or whatever it may be?

593
00:56:59,064 --> 00:56:59,384
Yeah.

594
00:57:00,724 --> 00:57:03,984
Well, at the blockchain level, you can see every single transaction.

595
00:57:05,464 --> 00:57:09,044
And so if you've got something that's on Tron,

596
00:57:09,044 --> 00:57:12,704
well, you can look up the record of that.

597
00:57:13,964 --> 00:57:17,524
Many of these blockchains operate the same way

598
00:57:17,524 --> 00:57:22,424
unless they have some type of cryptography like Monero.

599
00:57:23,144 --> 00:57:28,644
But then for Monero, you lose the ability to do the widespread accounting calculation

600
00:57:28,644 --> 00:57:35,144
and making sure that there is a known supply that has not grown.

601
00:57:36,144 --> 00:57:38,824
So that's one of the pieces that Bitcoin has.

602
00:57:38,964 --> 00:57:41,444
We know there's never going to be more than 21 million.

603
00:57:42,244 --> 00:57:43,504
We can run the script.

604
00:57:43,504 --> 00:57:47,984
it doesn't take long at all to count how many bitcoins have been created

605
00:57:47,984 --> 00:57:56,244
but when it comes to scaling things up you create a lightning channel and there's a certain amount

606
00:57:56,244 --> 00:58:03,504
of bitcoin in to create this what i like to call it joint account with it with another peer

607
00:58:03,504 --> 00:58:09,284
any of the individual transactions within that lightning channel they don't exist on the

608
00:58:09,284 --> 00:58:17,564
blockchain, nor will they ever. And then, you know, after some years, you may close out the channel,

609
00:58:17,564 --> 00:58:26,324
and each, each party in the channel gets their payout, which is the net settlement after many

610
00:58:26,324 --> 00:58:33,424
years and thousands or hundreds of thousands or millions of transactions have occurred. So it

611
00:58:33,424 --> 00:58:40,964
gives you that transaction level privacy. But what is lasting is your peers, all the friends

612
00:58:40,964 --> 00:58:48,924
you made along the way to connect to other folks. You're kind of building a reputation at the node

613
00:58:48,924 --> 00:58:54,764
level instead of at the individual transaction level where people are peering into everything

614
00:58:54,764 --> 00:59:00,784
you're spending money on. Yeah, it is still mind boggling to me, just like seeing people

615
00:59:00,784 --> 00:59:07,984
trading on Polymarket or trading assets on chains like Ethereum, like due to their account-based

616
00:59:07,984 --> 00:59:14,624
system, you can just see, you can just be like, oh, here's Vitalik's wallet. Like it's his,

617
00:59:14,764 --> 00:59:19,364
we know it's his and we can see every transaction he's making. And there doesn't seem to be any

618
00:59:19,364 --> 00:59:28,244
qualms or worry about that sort of lack of privacy existing on all these chains,

619
00:59:28,244 --> 00:59:32,144
especially when you're especially for like poly market indexes and things like that.

620
00:59:32,144 --> 00:59:38,744
If you're trying to get a market edge, but everybody can see your balance at any given point in time and what assets you're trading.

621
00:59:38,744 --> 00:59:41,084
It's like it seems like we'll look.

622
00:59:41,204 --> 00:59:42,404
I mean, at least who knows?

623
00:59:42,524 --> 00:59:44,244
Time will tell and the market will decide.

624
00:59:44,364 --> 00:59:46,604
But to me, it's like I think we'll look back at this.

625
00:59:46,684 --> 00:59:48,824
But it was insane that we did things this way.

626
00:59:50,344 --> 00:59:54,204
It's going to be crazy because, you know, for lightning, we're creating side ledgers.

627
00:59:55,024 --> 00:59:56,324
That's what each channel is.

628
00:59:56,364 --> 00:59:57,364
It's a side ledger.

629
00:59:57,364 --> 00:59:59,124
you just have with one other party.

630
00:59:59,944 --> 01:00:02,184
And I know Lighting Labs has been working on a tool

631
01:00:02,184 --> 01:00:05,444
to actually erase that history once it's over.

632
01:00:06,324 --> 01:00:08,404
There's no need to keep it around.

633
01:00:10,284 --> 01:00:12,144
Yeah, it's nobody's business

634
01:00:12,144 --> 01:00:14,364
and it doesn't need to exist anymore.

635
01:00:14,984 --> 01:00:16,564
But we don't have to live in a world

636
01:00:16,564 --> 01:00:19,024
where there's going to be massive data breaches

637
01:00:19,024 --> 01:00:22,464
where all of this information gets exposed

638
01:00:22,464 --> 01:00:24,744
and people are pouring through it later.

639
01:00:24,744 --> 01:00:34,664
yeah yeah we're gonna do it the right way this is exciting i know you've been working on this uh

640
01:00:34,664 --> 01:00:38,984
very hard for the last five years it's uh it seems like the momentum at emboss has been picking up

641
01:00:38,984 --> 01:00:45,224
considerably over the last year uh and so it's really fun to see you guys succeeding launching

642
01:00:45,224 --> 01:00:50,264
new products and really honestly pushing the industry towards a place where i would argue it

643
01:00:50,264 --> 01:00:55,904
needs to be again i'm not i don't i'm not a trader i don't i'm not going to speculate on

644
01:00:55,904 --> 01:01:00,724
assets that are trading on dexes i recognize the value of stable coins the product market

645
01:01:00,724 --> 01:01:07,764
fit they've had and for quite a while over a decade now um the whole meme is going to be like

646
01:01:07,764 --> 01:01:13,464
what you can do on uh shitcoin trade chains is eventually going to come to bitcoin but i think

647
01:01:13,464 --> 01:01:19,624
the hard discussion within bitcoin uh across that decade has been all right we need to make sure

648
01:01:19,624 --> 01:01:25,344
we do it the right way with a trade-off set that everybody's comfortable with.

649
01:01:25,424 --> 01:01:32,504
And I think pushing all this up into lightning makes a lot of sense from the scalability efficiency

650
01:01:32,504 --> 01:01:38,904
perspective, but then to a large part of what we just discussed, the privacy aspect of it

651
01:01:38,904 --> 01:01:39,324
as well.

652
01:01:40,464 --> 01:01:41,564
That's doing it the right way.

653
01:01:43,124 --> 01:01:43,264
Yeah.

654
01:01:43,744 --> 01:01:44,524
Thank you.

655
01:01:44,524 --> 01:01:47,164
We have been working hard at this.

656
01:01:48,304 --> 01:02:10,124
And overall, it's just because we want people to have more control over their financial futures, not be beholden to others and what policies they institute in some backroom deal that you could have sovereignty over how you trade, how you interact, how you peer with others, how you associate.

657
01:02:10,124 --> 01:02:19,024
and this gives us quite a bit of power at the individual level to be able to select

658
01:02:19,024 --> 01:02:26,484
what currency we want to receive what currency we want to send and that information isn't even

659
01:02:26,484 --> 01:02:31,944
contained in the lightning invoice it's going to be private on what currency you are receiving

660
01:02:31,944 --> 01:02:38,744
and what currency you're sending and bitcoin is at the core of it going to be that connector

661
01:02:38,744 --> 01:02:43,644
So Bitcoin can become the medium of exchange and not just a store of value.

662
01:02:44,984 --> 01:02:48,884
Is that privacy attained via Bell 12 specifically on the invoice?

663
01:02:49,584 --> 01:02:50,444
It's not.

664
01:02:50,804 --> 01:02:56,964
The way it works is you're going to choose which channel you're going to receive your payment in.

665
01:02:57,744 --> 01:02:59,664
And one of those channels may be a taproot asset.

666
01:03:00,024 --> 01:03:06,004
So it really just looks like a routing hint to say, hey, use this channel that is not publicly visible.

667
01:03:06,004 --> 01:03:06,644
Okay.

668
01:03:08,744 --> 01:03:11,244
Okay. So just just around it.

669
01:03:11,244 --> 01:03:12,984
I'm going to go out that they don't know what the routing.

670
01:03:13,704 --> 01:03:14,204
Exactly.

671
01:03:15,104 --> 01:03:16,444
Yeah. It's beautiful.

672
01:03:17,444 --> 01:03:20,104
Well, Jesse, I hope the next time we're in New York together,

673
01:03:20,604 --> 01:03:25,644
we get to make a trip back to automatic slims and sing sing American Pie.

674
01:03:27,084 --> 01:03:28,124
We didn't.

675
01:03:31,064 --> 01:03:34,684
I'm looking forward to it and we can catch a 4 a.m. slice of pizza.

676
01:03:35,504 --> 01:03:37,504
Yeah. Look, look forward to it.

677
01:03:37,504 --> 01:03:42,284
where can anybody so curious find out more about what you guys are building on

678
01:03:42,284 --> 01:03:45,204
Amboss test out Rails Rails X

679
01:03:45,204 --> 01:03:47,764
Magma MCP

680
01:03:47,764 --> 01:03:52,024
you can always find our information at

681
01:03:52,024 --> 01:03:56,144
Amboss.tech for the company site if you want to dive

682
01:03:56,144 --> 01:03:59,504
deep into exploring lightning it's Amboss.space

683
01:03:59,504 --> 01:04:03,324
for the explorer but you can find us on X

684
01:04:03,324 --> 01:04:07,064
at Amboss Tech or follow us on Noster as well

685
01:04:07,064 --> 01:04:10,004
yeah I'm available as

686
01:04:10,004 --> 01:04:12,224
jesterfer underscore btc on x

687
01:04:12,224 --> 01:04:14,544
great

688
01:04:14,544 --> 01:04:16,324
x handle jesterfer

689
01:04:16,324 --> 01:04:18,524
we'll include all those

690
01:04:18,524 --> 01:04:20,304
links in the show notes I hope you enjoy

691
01:04:20,304 --> 01:04:21,984
the rest of your Friday and

692
01:04:21,984 --> 01:04:23,584
can't wait to see you again brother

693
01:04:23,584 --> 01:04:26,324
yeah look forward to it thanks so much

694
01:04:26,324 --> 01:04:26,584
Marty

695
01:04:26,584 --> 01:04:28,644
peace and love freaks

696
01:04:28,644 --> 01:04:32,324
thank you for listening to this episode of TFTC

697
01:04:32,324 --> 01:04:34,064
if you've made it this far

698
01:04:34,064 --> 01:04:36,364
I imagine you got some value out of the episode

699
01:04:36,364 --> 01:04:41,724
if so please share it far and wide with your friends and family we're looking to get the word

700
01:04:41,724 --> 01:04:48,924
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701
01:04:48,924 --> 01:04:54,764
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702
01:04:54,764 --> 01:05:00,884
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703
01:05:00,884 --> 01:05:05,864
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704
01:05:06,624 --> 01:05:10,344
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705
01:05:11,164 --> 01:05:13,444
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706
01:05:14,384 --> 01:05:17,664
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707
01:05:18,244 --> 01:05:19,144
Thank you for your time.

708
01:05:19,624 --> 01:05:20,524
And until next time.

709
01:05:21,164 --> 01:05:21,364
Okay.

710
01:05:30,884 --> 01:06:00,864
Thank you.