1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:09,960 Calais, it's been a year and a month almost exactly to the date since we published our last podcast where we met in person in the jungle. 2 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:11,840 And a lot has happened since then. 3 00:00:11,900 --> 00:00:12,500 How have you been, sir? 4 00:00:13,140 --> 00:00:13,560 Oh, yeah. 5 00:00:14,500 --> 00:00:16,240 I've been doing great. 6 00:00:16,780 --> 00:00:19,300 And wow, that's been over a year. 7 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:20,000 That's crazy. 8 00:00:21,500 --> 00:00:23,360 I wish we were in the jungle again, though. 9 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:27,700 I've been looking out at 20 inches of snow. 10 00:00:27,700 --> 00:00:33,520 the jungle is much preferred to this but for anybody who's listening who didn't catch that 11 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:38,440 first episode doesn't know who cali is i'd be surprised if you don't cali is one of the 12 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:43,680 most prolific and active individual builders in the bitcoin and freedom tech ecosystem 13 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:54,160 working on bitcoin the cash you e-cash protocol bitchat claw eye ai and other open source dev 14 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:57,260 projects. You've got a PhD in physics. 15 00:00:58,340 --> 00:01:01,360 And I mean, I've been following the sparse 16 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:05,280 podcasts you've been doing throughout the year. I think you were on Citadel Dispatch 17 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:09,500 the summer of last year, and you were talking about this proliferation 18 00:01:09,500 --> 00:01:13,280 of AI tools and how Vibe Coding helps you build the Android app 19 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:16,880 for BitChat. That has blown up. We'll talk about BitChat, but I think 20 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:20,740 focusing in on what's happening now 21 00:01:20,740 --> 00:01:28,640 with claw eye ai and basically you launching agents to help you do your work you tweeted 22 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:33,340 yesterday about a devops engineer that you launched that would typically cost two hundred 23 00:01:33,340 --> 00:01:39,240 thousand dollars but you have it running autonomously 24 7 what uh what's going on 24 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:46,000 yeah i i i don't know what's going on that the i i strongly believe that no one does 25 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:53,260 where we're heading and it really feels like everything that we're doing right now is something 26 00:01:53,260 --> 00:02:03,480 that hasn't been done before so we are like 100 in discovery or in a discovery mode or in a pioneer 27 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:11,420 mode where you know any new idea on the table is basically is is is probably the first time that 28 00:02:11,420 --> 00:02:19,700 someone tries it out. As you made some examples, I've been focusing a lot on AI agents recently, 29 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:26,060 particularly focusing on OpenClaw, and I like it a lot and try to make it as useful as possible 30 00:02:26,060 --> 00:02:32,460 and try to figure out ways how to integrate it into the projects that I'm working on to be more 31 00:02:32,460 --> 00:02:40,840 effective, more cost-effective, and faster, ship more and higher quality code. But we'll be talking 32 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:50,920 about that i'm sure in this part in more detail yeah i think i mean just dive into like how 33 00:02:50,920 --> 00:02:57,060 prolific this is for you somebody who actually understands like i was saying just before we hit 34 00:02:57,060 --> 00:03:05,380 record i'm having some sleepless nights pushing my open claw agent uh to the edges and i barely 35 00:03:05,380 --> 00:03:12,340 know what I'm doing from the systems admin back in engineering programming perspective at all and I 36 00:03:12,340 --> 00:03:21,200 can't imagine what it's like for you um and in terms of like productivity wise and what you're 37 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:28,300 able to do what's what um how profound has it been for you well everything has completely changed and 38 00:03:28,300 --> 00:03:33,820 I would have never thought that I would be able to say that in my uh like programmer career so 39 00:03:33,820 --> 00:03:37,940 So like many people, I've been programming for decades at this point. 40 00:03:37,940 --> 00:03:43,280 So I consider myself a professional developer with lots of experience. 41 00:03:43,980 --> 00:03:55,400 And probably everyone has noticed by now that the work of being a programmer has flipped by like 180 degrees. 42 00:03:55,580 --> 00:04:00,820 It has changed in a way that no one would have predicted even only two years ago maybe. 43 00:04:00,820 --> 00:04:06,320 So in the last one or two years, maybe we'll start a little earlier. 44 00:04:06,700 --> 00:04:16,080 So the way I see this in my mind is we have multiple stages of innovation in AI with regard to LLMs and agents. 45 00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:21,600 So level one was using an LLM in a browser, chat GPT. 46 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:32,160 That was the most pivotal moment in AI history, so to speak, when you think about how actual normal people interface and interact with AI. 47 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:33,920 That was the biggest moment. 48 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:46,800 And I think also up to date, comparing to the penetration speed of other technologies, it has been the fastest growing and fastest adopted technology in history was ChatGPT. 49 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:50,100 So it has conquered the entire world. 50 00:04:50,100 --> 00:04:51,340 That's level one. 51 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:54,460 you open a browser, you ask a question, you get a response. 52 00:04:54,940 --> 00:04:58,500 And we've been doing that for a year or two. 53 00:04:58,940 --> 00:05:02,540 And also programmers started noticing quite fast 54 00:05:02,540 --> 00:05:05,480 that you can copy code from your code base 55 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:08,080 and put it into a chat GPT, ask a few questions, 56 00:05:08,220 --> 00:05:10,760 get some code back and put it back into your code base. 57 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:14,480 So there were many manual steps still involved 58 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:17,620 when doing development work using AI. 59 00:05:17,620 --> 00:05:28,860 And so after level one, we reached level two around maybe one and a half years ago, which is the introduction of agents. 60 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:41,080 And agents finally gave the LLMs that were previously confined in the browser, gave them kind of legs and arms to act on your computer. 61 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:46,300 So that is, for example, Cloud Code is probably the most popular one. 62 00:05:46,300 --> 00:05:50,780 And then there's codecs and so on from OpenAI. 63 00:05:51,180 --> 00:05:59,420 What I use the most is OpenCode, which is a LLM agnostic framework, fully open source, really high quality projects. 64 00:05:59,840 --> 00:06:05,940 So that is most of the code that I write today goes through these tools. 65 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:12,020 So and now I'm talking to other software engineers all the time about this. 66 00:06:12,020 --> 00:06:21,460 And it's very fascinating to see what people think about this and how they perceive their job changing over time. 67 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:35,920 And you have a small portion, what feels like 10 to 20% of developers resisting the change and they don't like AI and they think it's fallible and it's not as good as they are. 68 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:43,740 And then you have this way larger percentage of developers who use it and try to increase their productivity. 69 00:06:45,060 --> 00:06:54,780 And what I see is, you know, those who value the manual aspect of coding, and I compare them to artisms. 70 00:06:54,780 --> 00:07:13,740 So people who take pride in having done the work themselves and also enjoy the process of doing so and see some mastery in it or try to perfect their mastery and skills in it have a harder time giving up the job to an AI. 71 00:07:13,740 --> 00:07:40,240 Whereas, and then there is kind of like the opposite of that is prolific coders who've been in the business for decades at this point, who noticed that they can increase their output by, and I'm not exaggerating when I'm saying like 5 to 10x, which is, you know, if you are confronted with an efficiency boost of 5 to 10x, then it's really, really hard to say no. 72 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:47,520 And the only good reason that remains to say no is extreme safety. 73 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:55,380 So you're dealing with Bitcoin, for example, and you're not going to have a machine just write all the code for you that deals with money. 74 00:07:55,600 --> 00:08:06,520 Or you're in an industrial sector where it's the critical infrastructure or something like that where you need the human in the loop. 75 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:12,420 and or those who really want to perfect their art. 76 00:08:12,420 --> 00:08:15,340 So there's still some extremely good, 77 00:08:15,460 --> 00:08:18,520 a very tiny number of human workers, 78 00:08:18,900 --> 00:08:21,600 coders who can't be matched by the AI 79 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:26,600 and they are getting paid large sums of money these days 80 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:30,380 to be like the one big expert in COBOL 81 00:08:30,380 --> 00:08:32,840 or something like that working in the companies. 82 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:44,560 But for the rest, you know, the adoption of agents has led to an incredible output boost and productivity boost. 83 00:08:45,120 --> 00:09:02,580 And so that's what I've been focusing on for the last year and a half or two, which is like, how can I make use of these tools to improve all of these projects that I'm working on a lot, you know, a lot faster and also help all my peers to also get on that train. 84 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:09,160 and basically making sure that anyone in our cashier ecosystem uses AI tools 85 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:15,040 and realizes that if you're a software developer today and you're not using AI, 86 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:19,640 I'm willing to put money on the table that you will lose your job in five years. 87 00:09:19,740 --> 00:09:21,400 Like you won't have a job in five years. 88 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:26,460 I am 99% sure that this is what's going to happen to most people 89 00:09:26,460 --> 00:09:29,120 if they don't adopt this technology. 90 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:32,620 And the economic realities will force you to do so. 91 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:43,300 So that is level two. It has changed the industry completely, which, again, is something that I never have thought that I would experience this. 92 00:09:44,180 --> 00:09:48,540 And level three. Now, this is the level that we are currently in. 93 00:09:48,540 --> 00:10:09,780 This is the next evolution of AI agents are these proactive, always on running agents, personal AI agents that have a memory and the context about you that run either on your own home computer all the time or on a server somewhere in the cloud all the time. 94 00:10:09,780 --> 00:10:16,700 you're the only one who has access to that one computer and the agent has its own computer can 95 00:10:16,700 --> 00:10:22,900 do anything on that computer and with that power and with a loop that closes kind of like tells the 96 00:10:22,900 --> 00:10:31,760 agent to work around the clock and with all these ingredients combined we've seen what the future 97 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:38,960 of personalized AI agents will look like a couple weeks ago when you know open call blew up and when 98 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:44,720 When I first discovered OpenCall, I had, like we're talking about this before the recording, 99 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:49,920 as you said, almost like two or three sleepless nights, just trying to process what this means. 100 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:55,980 Because when you try technology for the first time and then you get this intuition that, 101 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:58,320 oh my God, like this is so powerful. 102 00:10:59,620 --> 00:11:01,520 Everyone will have this in one year. 103 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:05,460 This will be everywhere in one year because it's too powerful. 104 00:11:05,460 --> 00:11:19,960 It's like this ChatGPT moment again, I think, where the first moment you tried ChatGPT, you were like, sure, this is so significant that there is no way this won't penetrate everywhere. 105 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:26,960 This is how I felt again with the latest iteration of level three autonomous AI agents. 106 00:11:27,420 --> 00:11:30,720 And yeah, that's been on my mind a lot lately. 107 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:39,100 yeah and what would you say to people because i've um been using open claw for like i was i'm an og 108 00:11:39,100 --> 00:11:45,200 i was using it when it was clawed bot and i had to set it up uh in the cloud via cli i didn't have 109 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:52,880 is it clawy or claw i.ai i call it clawy clawy i didn't have clawy i didn't have like one click 110 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:59,800 deploy so i set it up like a like a caveman in a vps and i've been using and i've similarly had 111 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:04,620 this like holy crap this is so powerful everybody's going to be using this eventually but there there 112 00:12:04,620 --> 00:12:08,980 are naysayers out there like it it's like cloud code like i've been using cloud code and cloud 113 00:12:08,980 --> 00:12:14,820 co-work and it's the exact same from what i understand um what are the differences and what is 114 00:12:14,820 --> 00:12:22,880 the difference between just using cloud code or cloud co-work um uh sort of in in a silo versus 115 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:27,120 is creating an open claw and giving it access to cloud code. 116 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:31,600 And the way I understand is open claw is like a harness 117 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:35,620 that really adds a bunch of power to cloud code 118 00:12:35,620 --> 00:12:36,760 and other models for that matter. 119 00:12:38,020 --> 00:12:40,640 Yeah, so we definitely have to differentiate 120 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:42,740 between kind of like what's the LLM 121 00:12:42,740 --> 00:12:47,740 and that can be cloud, sonnet or opus or GPT 122 00:12:47,740 --> 00:12:49,640 or whatever it is, like the brain. 123 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:57,080 and then the body, which is the Claude Code CLI, for example, or OpenClaw. 124 00:12:57,320 --> 00:12:59,280 So kind of where do you put that brain into? 125 00:12:59,960 --> 00:13:03,660 And the biggest difference between the level two coding tools 126 00:13:03,660 --> 00:13:07,660 and the level three personal agents is the loop. 127 00:13:08,140 --> 00:13:10,100 Personal agents are alive all the time. 128 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:12,220 They don't care whether you leave your keyboard or not. 129 00:13:12,820 --> 00:13:14,480 It's not meant to interact. 130 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:21,580 They're not meant to be interacted with using that one single keyboard that you have on your computer. 131 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:24,100 And when you close your computer, it's gone again. 132 00:13:24,700 --> 00:13:30,340 But it's rather meant for something that is active all the time, can do something in the background, 133 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:35,360 and has memory about everything you've done so far. 134 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:37,500 And that is what OpenCore also does. 135 00:13:37,500 --> 00:13:39,400 It has a persistent memory. 136 00:13:39,580 --> 00:13:44,380 Sometimes it struggles with that memory, but it at least tries to remember everything that you've been doing. 137 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:47,300 You can talk to it like a normal person via chat. 138 00:13:47,300 --> 00:13:52,880 So you usually interact with it with Signal, WhatsApp, Telegram, whatever you want. 139 00:13:53,760 --> 00:14:03,880 And you can tell it to every day at 2 p.m., make a report about all the activity that's been going on in this GitHub repository, for example. 140 00:14:04,180 --> 00:14:08,780 This is one of the many examples that we're using in our dev organization, 141 00:14:08,780 --> 00:14:14,080 which is we have one of these queries that basically just tracks our progress on GitHub 142 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:19,920 and gives us daily reports about, hey, these are the new pull requests that were open. 143 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:22,960 These are the new issues that were open, sorted by Severity. 144 00:14:23,300 --> 00:14:25,220 And these people are working on that. 145 00:14:25,300 --> 00:14:27,640 And there is no activity in this project. 146 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:29,640 So maybe you should look at it or something like that. 147 00:14:30,020 --> 00:14:35,160 Having something like that that gives you automated responses every day, for example. 148 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:36,120 It could be every hour. 149 00:14:36,260 --> 00:14:37,240 It could be every week. 150 00:14:37,340 --> 00:14:37,860 Whatever you want. 151 00:14:37,860 --> 00:14:42,380 It could be news aggregation, research on the latest topics that you're interested in, 152 00:14:42,460 --> 00:14:46,080 or just something very banal and related to your personal life. 153 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:52,780 So there are clear differences in the capabilities between level two and level three. 154 00:14:53,460 --> 00:15:00,360 I think, you know, it's very normal that there will be skeptics about, you know, what is this useful for? 155 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:05,720 I've seen many technologies come and also go where you always have the same thing. 156 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:08,980 and since we're so new 157 00:15:08,980 --> 00:15:10,740 and so early with this technology 158 00:15:10,740 --> 00:15:13,020 basically the limit is your 159 00:15:13,020 --> 00:15:14,900 imagination right now is if you 160 00:15:14,900 --> 00:15:16,940 cannot think of a way how this can be useful 161 00:15:16,940 --> 00:15:18,960 for you then think a little 162 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:20,880 harder that's what I would suggest 163 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:22,960 because I'm pretty sure everyone 164 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:24,160 who deals with computers 165 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:26,960 and that's everyone as something 166 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:28,900 that they don't like doing 167 00:15:28,900 --> 00:15:29,980 themselves or they would 168 00:15:29,980 --> 00:15:32,860 like someone else to do it 169 00:15:32,860 --> 00:15:34,300 like in the background for them 170 00:15:34,300 --> 00:15:40,700 and yeah so so you can probably come up with stuff yourself i'll just give you one uh one anecdote 171 00:15:40,700 --> 00:15:47,640 of mine is you know i've been on a conference and using like uber or bolt or something like that for 172 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:51,780 for taxi rides so at the end of the conference i need to put all the invoices together for my 173 00:15:51,780 --> 00:15:56,120 accountant so they can you know be properly accounted for and i hate that stuff like it's 174 00:15:56,120 --> 00:16:01,620 it gives me anxiety just to think about that little task that i have to do after every single 175 00:16:01,620 --> 00:16:06,980 conference is download all the pdfs from uber they're like have these weird file names and then 176 00:16:06,980 --> 00:16:12,740 i need to go into every pdf take out the date and rename it and send it to my accountant like these 177 00:16:12,740 --> 00:16:18,340 are like a couple of stupid steps that i need to do after every conference and this time i just 178 00:16:18,340 --> 00:16:25,180 like downloaded 15 invoices as a pdfs and i dropped it over to my chloe over signal and i told it like 179 00:16:25,180 --> 00:16:30,400 hey you know just you know look into the pdfs extract the dates rename the file send them back 180 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:35,920 to me. And I just could go on with my life. And three minutes later, I have received 15 PDFs back, 181 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:40,960 perfectly formatted in a way that I can just drop and forward to my accountant and I'm done with the 182 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:46,200 task. This is something very personal to me. No one would build a product just for that because 183 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:51,960 it's too specific, but we don't need to anymore. We have now machines that can do basically everything. 184 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:59,760 And that's just mind blowing. And another thing that I think is something that we're just getting 185 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:05,400 adjusted to is how we talk to computers. Something is fundamentally changing in how we interact with 186 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:11,600 computers. Because, you know, for example, just the experience of installing software until now, 187 00:17:11,660 --> 00:17:17,060 it was either, you know, go to a browser, download a file, and then click on it, go through that, 188 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:22,420 set up, blah, blah, blah, and then you have a software. Or if you're a Linux person, you just, 189 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:27,040 you know, you do it over the terminal, you install it, and then it's there, and maybe you need to 190 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:29,600 configure it and then you can use it. 191 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:34,040 And lately, the way I've been installing most of the software 192 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:47,464 over for an AI agent is basically just taking the link to the GitHub or to the website of the thing that I want it to use I send it to Ling and say install this And I just turn around and do my thing 193 00:17:47,884 --> 00:17:50,084 It comes back after two minutes and says, it's done. 194 00:17:50,244 --> 00:17:50,804 It's working. 195 00:17:51,084 --> 00:17:51,924 I've tested it. 196 00:17:52,184 --> 00:17:53,424 What do you want me to do with it? 197 00:17:53,984 --> 00:17:58,004 And, you know, it's just, it's mind-blowing. 198 00:17:58,924 --> 00:18:05,104 These basic interactions that hadn't changed for over, you know, for decades 199 00:18:05,104 --> 00:18:09,264 Since the invention of the personal computer, everything has now changed. 200 00:18:09,644 --> 00:18:16,344 Every single person can now use basically everything through a language-based interface. 201 00:18:16,524 --> 00:18:20,184 And I think that's amazing. 202 00:18:20,644 --> 00:18:29,144 It opens so many new doors and helps so many new people to use software and be more productive humans. 203 00:18:29,144 --> 00:18:35,904 yeah it's i mean it's become clear to me over the last six weeks the form factor with how we 204 00:18:35,904 --> 00:18:40,584 interact with computers is changing right before eyes like voice to text voice to voice even 205 00:18:40,584 --> 00:18:47,144 um is how i mean a month and a half ago i would use voice to text for some things 206 00:18:47,144 --> 00:18:53,604 but really not much and now whenever i'm on my computer i'm hitting option spacebar and just 207 00:18:53,604 --> 00:19:00,424 talking for five minutes and then sending sending that prompt or that conversation to to my agent 208 00:19:00,424 --> 00:19:05,884 and then just doing these tasks and it's like we're projectionists now we can just think of 209 00:19:05,884 --> 00:19:10,604 something we want in your example of the uber receipts for your accountant like i need that 210 00:19:10,604 --> 00:19:13,824 you can just project it into reality which is insane 211 00:19:13,824 --> 00:19:17,104 and 212 00:19:17,104 --> 00:19:19,004 you know it goes even 213 00:19:19,004 --> 00:19:20,884 there's even 214 00:19:20,884 --> 00:19:23,264 it goes even deeper I'll tell you 215 00:19:23,264 --> 00:19:24,924 just a little story about 216 00:19:24,924 --> 00:19:27,284 how I started 217 00:19:27,284 --> 00:19:28,664 working on BitChat because 218 00:19:28,664 --> 00:19:31,024 when I saw Jack 219 00:19:31,024 --> 00:19:32,804 release BitChat 220 00:19:32,804 --> 00:19:34,344 for iOS initially 221 00:19:34,344 --> 00:19:37,244 I was like oh no this is 222 00:19:37,244 --> 00:19:39,004 iOS I'm an Android guy 223 00:19:39,004 --> 00:19:41,144 I would like this to exist for 224 00:19:41,144 --> 00:19:43,164 Android why did he only build it 225 00:19:43,164 --> 00:19:49,044 for iOS, right? And we're in times where you can just do it. But the thing is, I'm not an expert 226 00:19:49,044 --> 00:19:57,484 on Android. I've never made a real Android app before. And I've been searching for experts in 227 00:19:57,484 --> 00:20:05,304 several fields for so long. For example, we're working a lot with NFC these days for Cashew. 228 00:20:05,304 --> 00:20:09,524 and try to find an Android expert 229 00:20:09,524 --> 00:20:13,004 that also has experience with NFC. 230 00:20:14,564 --> 00:20:16,744 You're looking for someone very specific 231 00:20:16,744 --> 00:20:19,964 and even if you have the money to pay them, 232 00:20:20,364 --> 00:20:21,964 it's super hard to find them. 233 00:20:22,264 --> 00:20:24,964 And even if you say like, okay, I'm going to learn it. 234 00:20:24,964 --> 00:20:27,144 So you go out and search for documentation 235 00:20:27,144 --> 00:20:32,784 and what you see is code from eight years ago 236 00:20:32,784 --> 00:20:34,304 that hasn't been updated 237 00:20:34,304 --> 00:20:39,784 or like super old documentation or PDFs that look like technical sheets 238 00:20:39,784 --> 00:20:44,424 that you really don't like to read or you can't understand 239 00:20:44,424 --> 00:20:45,224 or something like that. 240 00:20:45,424 --> 00:20:52,764 It's like even for someone who has a good amount of skill in a certain field, 241 00:20:53,424 --> 00:20:58,384 there are blockers that would have cost you either a lot of money 242 00:20:58,384 --> 00:21:01,024 or time to find someone who can help you. 243 00:21:01,024 --> 00:21:04,444 and now I can just talk to the machine and tell it like, 244 00:21:05,204 --> 00:21:07,604 can you please explain to me how NFC on Android works? 245 00:21:08,224 --> 00:21:10,204 It will figure everything out. 246 00:21:10,404 --> 00:21:13,024 It's the best expert that you can think of 247 00:21:13,024 --> 00:21:15,924 in several very specific domains 248 00:21:15,924 --> 00:21:17,824 in the thing that you are good at already. 249 00:21:18,704 --> 00:21:25,204 So it not only helps the uninitiated to raise the levels 250 00:21:25,204 --> 00:21:29,264 and become more productive humans that can focus on their lives, 251 00:21:29,264 --> 00:21:40,564 but also the ones that are really deep into their own profession helps them to, you know, broaden their scope and figure out things that they weren't able to figure out before. 252 00:21:42,684 --> 00:21:43,884 It's truly mind-blowing. 253 00:21:44,144 --> 00:21:51,364 And I had a discussion with Justin Moon a couple weeks ago about what this means for Freedom Tech. 254 00:21:51,364 --> 00:22:15,284 And since you brought up BitChat, I think BitChat's the perfect example of something that's been accelerated via these AI tools and is a freedom tech project that found, I think it's safe to say, like mass adoption during the elections in Uganda, when they turned the Internet off in Iran, when they had the hurricane in Jamaica, people have been turning to BitChat, which you've been working on. 255 00:22:15,284 --> 00:22:26,144 But I think talking about a broader topic, like how important are these AI tools for the proliferation of freedom tech generally? 256 00:22:26,564 --> 00:22:32,404 And what does it mean for how we build these freedom tech apps moving forward? 257 00:22:32,784 --> 00:22:35,724 Does it give you more hope that we can actually win this battle? 258 00:22:35,824 --> 00:22:37,224 Yeah, 100%. 259 00:22:37,224 --> 00:22:40,664 And interestingly, it's a human factor. 260 00:22:40,664 --> 00:22:53,264 The answer is the human factor at the end of the day, because with AI, what effectively happens is that you increase the number of people who can reach a certain goal. 261 00:22:53,944 --> 00:22:56,804 And previously, it was confined to a very small number of people. 262 00:22:56,984 --> 00:23:04,164 You need like the Android, NFC, Bluetooth expert who has worked on some project five years ago. 263 00:23:04,324 --> 00:23:09,564 And that's why he is the perfect person to build BitChat today, for example. 264 00:23:09,564 --> 00:23:10,244 Right. 265 00:23:10,664 --> 00:23:14,644 So the chance of this happening is just way lower. 266 00:23:14,644 --> 00:23:28,944 But today, we're 100% at a point where you can build a solid and useful application with a single person who's motivated enough to actually pull it off. 267 00:23:29,264 --> 00:23:31,264 So Jack has proven that. 268 00:23:31,844 --> 00:23:34,604 He's basically said, I wanted to research how Mesh Networks works. 269 00:23:35,364 --> 00:23:36,964 And he's built this incredible app. 270 00:23:36,964 --> 00:23:41,164 or another example is OpenClaw itself. 271 00:23:41,164 --> 00:23:42,744 It was built by a single person. 272 00:23:43,264 --> 00:23:44,404 It's unheard of. 273 00:23:44,504 --> 00:23:45,304 It's impossible. 274 00:23:45,584 --> 00:23:49,624 There's no way in the world one year ago 275 00:23:49,624 --> 00:23:51,524 that this would have been possible. 276 00:23:51,704 --> 00:23:53,184 And today, like only a year 277 00:23:53,184 --> 00:23:55,284 or maybe two years into this technology, 278 00:23:55,764 --> 00:23:58,404 we've already seen profound effect, 279 00:23:58,664 --> 00:24:02,244 profound impact of highly motivated individuals 280 00:24:02,244 --> 00:24:04,324 who are now able to execute. 281 00:24:04,884 --> 00:24:06,264 I still think, you know, 282 00:24:06,264 --> 00:24:11,104 it requires some upfront work from you as a human 283 00:24:11,104 --> 00:24:18,484 because it's not like everything has now the same difficulty for everyone. 284 00:24:19,404 --> 00:24:21,524 It definitely equalizes everything, 285 00:24:22,124 --> 00:24:24,404 but still being an expert in a certain field, 286 00:24:24,944 --> 00:24:26,824 knowing what the pain points are, 287 00:24:27,224 --> 00:24:30,264 having all that context that you only gain through experience, 288 00:24:30,264 --> 00:24:40,204 That is what makes you stand out in the sea of equal capabilities. 289 00:24:40,904 --> 00:24:49,724 And I think that's the move forward, is figuring out who's motivated and less who's skilled. 290 00:24:50,164 --> 00:24:53,864 It's more about you as a person, what are your goals and your ideals. 291 00:24:53,864 --> 00:25:12,264 And if you're a person who's like a doer who doesn't sit there and wait until someone else does it, but you're motivated enough to do it, previously the biggest obstacle was skill. And today it's not anymore. And that's just, that's amazing. We can't even start to comprehend what it can change. 292 00:25:12,264 --> 00:25:17,224 I believe that software is one of the most important driving factors in today's world. 293 00:25:17,784 --> 00:25:24,264 How we, as humanity progress, we see this in mass adopted software and social media. 294 00:25:24,504 --> 00:25:27,884 And so like all these things have a massive impact on the world today. 295 00:25:28,744 --> 00:25:31,184 So, you know, one plus one equals two. 296 00:25:31,544 --> 00:25:35,664 Give them the tools and they will build. 297 00:25:37,444 --> 00:25:39,264 Well, it goes both ways too, right? 298 00:25:39,264 --> 00:25:43,924 It's a double-edged sword because it can be used for good and bad. 299 00:25:44,324 --> 00:25:50,464 And so how do you view that particular nature of this beast that we're working with? 300 00:25:50,484 --> 00:25:55,284 Because it seems like we're in an arms race to avoid the digital panopticon 301 00:25:55,284 --> 00:26:00,124 and ensure that we can leverage free and open source software tools 302 00:26:00,124 --> 00:26:06,584 that preserve privacy, sovereignty, and the ability to operate outside the wall gardens. 303 00:26:06,584 --> 00:26:19,964 I mean, I'm almost getting goosebumps thinking back to our previous conversation in the general now because we're kind of closing the loop and we talked about similar topics a year and a half ago. 304 00:26:20,524 --> 00:26:33,124 But things were so different back then that it felt like, you know, and here's what I want to say actually about your question is the good usually comes from the many, whereas the bad comes from the few. 305 00:26:33,124 --> 00:26:42,904 But the bad from the few usually has all the resources that they need to build a centralized social media platform that conquers the entire world. 306 00:26:43,584 --> 00:26:52,984 So although everyone has improved their skills, I think it's vastly disproportional in how much it has helped the many. 307 00:26:53,944 --> 00:27:01,064 We are way more people who want to see good in the world than those who want to see bad in the world. 308 00:27:01,064 --> 00:27:12,704 And we as the mass of people have increased our ability disproportionately more than the large mega corporations who can also now use Vibe coding. 309 00:27:12,984 --> 00:27:15,104 All right. Okay. You can use Vibe coding now too. 310 00:27:15,264 --> 00:27:21,204 But they were able to do anything that they want anyway because of a large amount of resources. 311 00:27:21,204 --> 00:27:31,984 But this technological shift has benefited especially those with smaller resources or smaller teams and individuals. 312 00:27:32,884 --> 00:27:40,164 And so my hope, I'm very hopeful because I know that there are more good people than bad people in the world. 313 00:27:40,164 --> 00:27:54,224 And those good people now have way more tools to express themselves, to actually change the world, and to show us their vision of the world and inspire others. 314 00:27:54,224 --> 00:28:16,904 So I'm way more optimistic in that regard than one and a half years ago because we have now the way more powerful weapons that we can use to fight against surveillance or repression and the digital panopticum, as you call it. 315 00:28:17,264 --> 00:28:19,184 Yeah, I completely agree. 316 00:28:19,644 --> 00:28:23,124 And to your point about just figuring out what your skill is, what you're good at. 317 00:28:23,124 --> 00:28:32,824 For example, like when I view my contribution to to this space is just the ability to observe and curate. 318 00:28:32,824 --> 00:28:38,784 And so that's what I've been using my agent to do is just that the media company is observe and curate. 319 00:28:38,864 --> 00:28:46,084 So I have it running all these prong jobs to surface information that I think people aren't getting enough exposure to. 320 00:28:46,084 --> 00:28:55,084 And then I can then curate that and put it in a podcast or a newsletter or share it on social media. 321 00:28:55,084 --> 00:28:57,384 And it's been incredibly impactful. 322 00:28:57,384 --> 00:29:11,384 Like the amount of sort of output that we've been able to push out over the last couple of months has increased, I think, at least five, maybe 10x just because we have these tools available. 323 00:29:11,384 --> 00:29:27,664 And so now when I'm thinking of TFTC, it's like, OK, I want a CBS, NBC, CNN, Fox News, but for Freedom Tech and sort of economic economic storylines that people aren't getting in the mainstream. 324 00:29:27,664 --> 00:29:32,064 And I think it's it's I think it's successful. 325 00:29:32,324 --> 00:29:38,864 We're like two weeks into this five day a week newsletter that we've been putting out with the help of our agent. 326 00:29:38,864 --> 00:29:41,844 and I've gotten a ton of responses like, hey, I love the mix of content. 327 00:29:42,044 --> 00:29:43,104 I haven't heard these stories. 328 00:29:43,104 --> 00:29:49,584 And so that's been a signal to me like, okay, these tools are working for my particular niche in the media world. 329 00:29:50,584 --> 00:29:56,864 And I think on that note, it took me like a few weeks to really like download a CloudBot, 330 00:29:57,584 --> 00:30:02,124 started working with it, and it took me like a week or two of understanding how its memory works 331 00:30:02,124 --> 00:30:08,024 and basically what it could do, pushing it to its limits, exploring the territory which it operates in, 332 00:30:08,024 --> 00:30:10,964 where after a week and a half, two weeks, 333 00:30:11,024 --> 00:30:14,304 I was like, okay, here's how I can use this. 334 00:30:14,864 --> 00:30:16,064 But it took experimentation. 335 00:30:17,304 --> 00:30:19,304 The point I bring this up is to ask you, 336 00:30:19,484 --> 00:30:22,284 in terms of practical first steps 337 00:30:22,284 --> 00:30:24,164 for anybody listening to this 338 00:30:24,164 --> 00:30:26,284 who isn't experimenting with these technologies, 339 00:30:26,464 --> 00:30:29,404 how do you think they should approach using this stuff? 340 00:30:31,184 --> 00:30:35,244 I want to start with especially the security aspect first. 341 00:30:35,244 --> 00:30:45,804 So you should be aware that using agents on your computer or with your personal accounts can go terribly wrong. 342 00:30:46,304 --> 00:30:49,784 So that is something, you know, that's the first thing you could think about. 343 00:30:50,084 --> 00:31:02,164 We're not at a place yet where, you know, some highly polished experience exists made by a large company or something that is fully safe to use. 344 00:31:02,164 --> 00:31:15,204 And to be honest, I also don't think that that will happen anytime, you know, very soon, at least not very soon, because his agents are just too kind of powerful to put them in a box yet. 345 00:31:15,764 --> 00:31:19,904 So first, what you do is you set it up. 346 00:31:20,024 --> 00:31:21,424 You can set it up on your own machine. 347 00:31:21,664 --> 00:31:23,144 Sorry, on a separate machine. 348 00:31:23,304 --> 00:31:25,804 Let's say a Mac mini is the trend. 349 00:31:25,904 --> 00:31:28,584 Or you can also use a service that runs it for you. 350 00:31:28,584 --> 00:31:35,384 and one of them is Chloe, C-L-A-W-I.ai. 351 00:31:35,884 --> 00:31:40,024 And the process is basically super simple to set up an agent. 352 00:31:40,184 --> 00:31:42,544 You make a subscription, you pay for it monthly, 353 00:31:42,784 --> 00:31:44,824 and there is like AI credits included, 354 00:31:45,384 --> 00:31:47,644 and off you go, and then it starts. 355 00:31:48,104 --> 00:31:52,104 And the next step is to connect it to one of your messengers 356 00:31:52,104 --> 00:31:54,324 that you want to use in order to interact with it. 357 00:31:54,964 --> 00:31:57,684 So then you're set up, and you have your own personal agent 358 00:31:57,684 --> 00:31:59,524 that you can ask questions about. 359 00:32:00,564 --> 00:32:05,464 And what I do is think about things 360 00:32:05,464 --> 00:32:07,284 that I wish I had someone, 361 00:32:07,624 --> 00:32:10,124 like my own personal human agent, 362 00:32:10,244 --> 00:32:11,504 basically do things for me. 363 00:32:12,024 --> 00:32:14,444 So one of them could be accounting bookkeeping, 364 00:32:14,644 --> 00:32:15,924 for example, that's one thing. 365 00:32:16,384 --> 00:32:19,804 But in Kesha, we run a large organization. 366 00:32:20,024 --> 00:32:22,444 As I said, we need to basically have something 367 00:32:22,444 --> 00:32:25,304 that can observe progress. 368 00:32:25,304 --> 00:32:27,664 That is also something that many people use. 369 00:32:27,684 --> 00:32:31,884 is having a bot that just observes things and writes reports on it. 370 00:32:32,384 --> 00:32:34,784 And in your case, it can be news, for example. 371 00:32:35,384 --> 00:32:38,884 And in my case, it's pull requests and issues on GitHub, for example. 372 00:32:39,824 --> 00:32:44,304 And lately, what we've been experimenting, especially with Chloe, 373 00:32:44,684 --> 00:32:47,244 in order to make our operation more efficient, 374 00:32:47,724 --> 00:32:53,444 is to pick off kind of jobs that we would have hired someone for, 375 00:32:53,924 --> 00:32:56,924 where we can carve out some specific aspect 376 00:32:56,924 --> 00:33:00,424 where we think this is safe and nothing can go wrong there 377 00:33:00,424 --> 00:33:03,704 if you automate this part, for example, observing something 378 00:33:03,704 --> 00:33:08,644 and then build like a dedicated bot just with those skills. 379 00:33:09,224 --> 00:33:13,364 And in the case of Chloe, we run our infrastructure 380 00:33:13,364 --> 00:33:14,744 on a system called Kubernetes. 381 00:33:15,504 --> 00:33:19,864 It's a fairly common advanced provisioning system 382 00:33:19,864 --> 00:33:22,704 where the cloud basically is Kubernetes. 383 00:33:22,704 --> 00:33:27,384 and you have experts for that. 384 00:33:27,584 --> 00:33:30,584 Obviously, there's people who know Kubernetes in and out 385 00:33:30,584 --> 00:33:33,584 and you can pay them to do a certain job for you. 386 00:33:34,544 --> 00:33:37,404 But you also know we have these agents 387 00:33:37,404 --> 00:33:39,784 that know Kubernetes really, really well as well. 388 00:33:39,784 --> 00:33:44,424 So if you plug in a relatively good LLM into it, 389 00:33:44,524 --> 00:33:50,324 say you use Sonnet 4.6 or even Opus or something, 390 00:33:50,324 --> 00:33:59,104 You kind of get to a better than junior person in that specific job that just works for you 24-7. 391 00:33:59,904 --> 00:34:01,484 And that's what we've been doing. 392 00:34:01,604 --> 00:34:07,504 So we have this DevOps agent that lives in a Signal chat with us. 393 00:34:08,004 --> 00:34:14,484 And I can ask the bot in real human language, hey, how's everything looking? 394 00:34:14,784 --> 00:34:16,604 Are there any problems with our cluster? 395 00:34:16,604 --> 00:34:22,424 and then it'll say, yeah, there are like two people whose agents have crashed 396 00:34:22,424 --> 00:34:24,404 and they haven't come back for like five hours. 397 00:34:24,484 --> 00:34:29,104 Maybe you should look at them and just gives me further hints to any problems 398 00:34:29,104 --> 00:34:31,964 that might have come while I was doing something else. 399 00:34:31,964 --> 00:34:34,284 So this is for our operation. 400 00:34:34,624 --> 00:34:36,284 It's extremely useful already today. 401 00:34:37,004 --> 00:34:40,364 And I'm just thinking about, let's say you run a factory, right? 402 00:34:40,504 --> 00:34:46,364 So you have a factory with all sorts of sensors and monitoring and reporting 403 00:34:46,364 --> 00:34:48,264 and all of that needs to be observed. 404 00:34:48,424 --> 00:34:49,604 Like a human needs to sit there 405 00:34:49,604 --> 00:34:51,824 and look at that data basically to make use of it. 406 00:34:52,384 --> 00:34:54,564 And what we've been doing so far before AI 407 00:34:54,564 --> 00:34:55,544 is like dashboards. 408 00:34:55,544 --> 00:34:59,484 That's the way we typically try to condense information 409 00:34:59,484 --> 00:35:01,704 so it's useful for us as humans. 410 00:35:02,364 --> 00:35:04,724 But today, I mean, you can still do the dashboard. 411 00:35:04,944 --> 00:35:05,524 It's no problem. 412 00:35:05,924 --> 00:35:08,884 But you can also just plug an agent into that system 413 00:35:08,884 --> 00:35:10,124 that can read the raw data. 414 00:35:10,664 --> 00:35:12,944 And it will probably come up with like even better ways 415 00:35:12,944 --> 00:35:15,484 to look at the data and report anything 416 00:35:15,484 --> 00:35:17,244 that is out of the ordinary for you. 417 00:35:17,244 --> 00:35:31,688 So just this one little thing and again we just talking about one thing that it can do that it was not particularly designed to do but it does exceptionally well Just this one thing is by itself already huge 418 00:35:32,288 --> 00:35:38,948 Imagine what it means for the industry, well, the industry producing physical goods in real factories, 419 00:35:39,408 --> 00:35:45,568 what it means to have agents plugged in into their system that can observe everything 24-7 all the time. 420 00:35:45,568 --> 00:35:48,068 and that costs basically no money. 421 00:35:48,288 --> 00:35:49,508 I mean, you pay for the LLM, 422 00:35:49,608 --> 00:35:53,008 but the difference between a human doing that job 423 00:35:53,008 --> 00:35:55,388 and the bot doing that job is basically no money. 424 00:35:56,188 --> 00:35:59,908 So if I can think of like two or three ways 425 00:35:59,908 --> 00:36:01,408 how this can be extremely useful for me, 426 00:36:01,888 --> 00:36:04,448 I know there must be millions of ways 427 00:36:04,448 --> 00:36:06,308 for millions and billions of people 428 00:36:06,308 --> 00:36:08,648 how they can make it useful for them as well. 429 00:36:09,408 --> 00:36:11,748 And the nice thing about these agents 430 00:36:11,748 --> 00:36:15,048 is we don't need to know before what they're going to do 431 00:36:15,048 --> 00:36:17,428 because they're general purpose machines. 432 00:36:17,428 --> 00:36:20,688 They can probably do way more than we think that they will. 433 00:36:21,248 --> 00:36:25,588 And they will continue improving in the coming months and years 434 00:36:25,588 --> 00:36:28,628 and will be just like mind blown for the next couple of years. 435 00:36:28,748 --> 00:36:29,828 I'm pretty sure about that. 436 00:36:30,728 --> 00:36:35,888 Yeah, that's the crazy thing to realize is how this thing is pretty good right now, 437 00:36:35,948 --> 00:36:37,508 but it's probably the worst it's going to be. 438 00:36:38,008 --> 00:36:38,488 100%. 439 00:36:38,488 --> 00:36:41,988 It's going to get faster and better at doing what it's doing. 440 00:36:41,988 --> 00:36:45,188 and just from a software engineering perspective, 441 00:36:45,188 --> 00:36:46,468 if you go back to level two, 442 00:36:46,668 --> 00:36:49,148 the agent then writes code for you in your computer. 443 00:36:49,708 --> 00:36:51,668 Right now the flow is you enter a prompt 444 00:36:51,668 --> 00:36:53,208 and then you wait a couple of minutes 445 00:36:53,208 --> 00:36:55,728 and then you observe what the agent has produced. 446 00:36:56,208 --> 00:36:59,768 That loop will become like 100 milliseconds at some point. 447 00:37:00,248 --> 00:37:02,988 You will just enter it and press enter 448 00:37:02,988 --> 00:37:05,508 and it will be there instantly for you to observe. 449 00:37:05,768 --> 00:37:06,528 And if you don't like it, 450 00:37:06,548 --> 00:37:08,668 you can just redo everything instantly as well. 451 00:37:08,668 --> 00:37:17,248 So just the flow of talking to the thing and getting something back, all that is going to compress a lot in the next coming years. 452 00:37:17,948 --> 00:37:25,468 And even just the speed aspect, just the performance aspect itself will open, unlock new ways of working with it again. 453 00:37:25,468 --> 00:37:43,628 Yeah, I guess I'm diving into particulars of building products with it, whether it's the Cachew Protocol, BitChat, Klawi.ai using the AI to build that service, now Numopay. 454 00:37:44,228 --> 00:37:50,128 So it seems like you've been shipping at an increased clip, just observing publicly. 455 00:37:50,628 --> 00:37:54,348 And I'm assuming that you're using all these tools to do that. 456 00:37:54,348 --> 00:37:55,448 I think it's a safe assumption. 457 00:37:56,908 --> 00:37:58,928 I guess let's just talk about some of the things, 458 00:37:59,008 --> 00:38:04,328 particularly at the intersection of Bitcoin and eCash with the Cashew Protocol, 459 00:38:04,688 --> 00:38:08,688 what you've been able to ship that's been on your mind for many years, I'm sure. 460 00:38:09,548 --> 00:38:13,268 Yeah, so I just hinted towards NFC. 461 00:38:13,648 --> 00:38:16,748 NFC is something that I've been researching for years at this point. 462 00:38:16,748 --> 00:38:23,148 And I'm very jealous about the fiat world in that sense, 463 00:38:23,148 --> 00:38:29,388 that tap to pay is just an incredible user experience and everyone loves it people use it 464 00:38:29,388 --> 00:38:34,508 all the time everywhere globally i remember a conversation i had with miles miles suitor from 465 00:38:34,508 --> 00:38:39,788 from cash app where we were talking about uh bitcoin adoption around the world and how we can 466 00:38:39,788 --> 00:38:45,548 improve ux for bitcoin payments and he told me the story that doesn't leave my mind anymore which is 467 00:38:45,548 --> 00:38:52,588 is somewhere in peru in some like distant uh isolated mountain somewhere and he finds his little 468 00:38:52,588 --> 00:38:55,088 shack that sells him a Coke. 469 00:38:55,808 --> 00:39:02,868 And in this mountain somewhere in the nowhere, the person hands him over a POS device and 470 00:39:02,868 --> 00:39:07,408 she takes his iPhone and she taps it and it makes beep and it takes like three seconds 471 00:39:07,408 --> 00:39:08,308 and the payment is done. 472 00:39:08,308 --> 00:39:15,548 And he said, that thing made him more bearish than anything else with regard to Bitcoin. 473 00:39:16,308 --> 00:39:21,488 And that just resonated completely with me because that is what makes me bearish about 474 00:39:21,488 --> 00:39:28,248 Bitcoin as well is the user experience. Because if fiat feels so good, like why do you even need 475 00:39:28,248 --> 00:39:33,708 Bitcoin? That's what many people think, how many people think. So obviously we need to get better 476 00:39:33,708 --> 00:39:40,788 in Bitcoin and offer at least the same experience, the quality of experience or better. And I think 477 00:39:40,788 --> 00:39:46,188 we can do better because we're an open source system and we can, you know, where improvements 478 00:39:46,188 --> 00:39:48,928 of one thing help also the other thing. 479 00:39:49,028 --> 00:39:50,128 We don't need to compete. 480 00:39:50,608 --> 00:39:51,568 We can also collaborate. 481 00:39:52,048 --> 00:39:53,908 And that's what we're doing with open protocols. 482 00:39:54,388 --> 00:39:57,208 And that's the whole idea about Bitcoin, basically, 483 00:39:57,368 --> 00:39:59,128 is just we all work on the same thing. 484 00:39:59,768 --> 00:40:02,728 So NFC, I think, is a vital part. 485 00:40:03,008 --> 00:40:04,028 Tap to pay just works. 486 00:40:04,268 --> 00:40:05,068 Everyone loves it. 487 00:40:05,688 --> 00:40:08,348 And in order to build that, 488 00:40:08,348 --> 00:40:11,608 I needed to get all this expert knowledge, 489 00:40:11,768 --> 00:40:13,748 which I wasn't able to obtain over the years. 490 00:40:13,748 --> 00:40:19,248 And I said, like, I was actively looking for people who can help me, but found no one and so forth. 491 00:40:19,568 --> 00:40:27,848 Until at some point, I think this started all more than a year ago again with a little project I called NSC Chat. 492 00:40:28,608 --> 00:40:33,308 And that is kind of a, if I think back, it's kind of like a precursor of BitChat. 493 00:40:34,108 --> 00:40:38,428 Because it's like BitChat, but with way less radius distance. 494 00:40:38,808 --> 00:40:42,728 It's just a simple chat app that you run on your phone and you write a message. 495 00:40:42,728 --> 00:40:45,828 and you have to tap the other phone in order for the message to go wrong, 496 00:40:46,228 --> 00:40:47,048 one phone to the other. 497 00:40:47,388 --> 00:40:50,048 So it's like a very stupid, simple chat app 498 00:40:50,048 --> 00:40:52,788 where you need to touch the phones in order to send the message. 499 00:40:52,788 --> 00:40:57,488 And I built that as a step towards kind of NFC payments 500 00:40:57,488 --> 00:40:59,008 because with Cashew, 501 00:40:59,368 --> 00:41:01,588 and that's the Charmin eCash protocol that I'm working on, 502 00:41:02,888 --> 00:41:05,608 money can be sent as a bearer asset, bearer token. 503 00:41:05,828 --> 00:41:09,088 So that means like if you can package it in some kind of a data package 504 00:41:09,088 --> 00:41:11,868 and you can send it over and there could be, 505 00:41:11,868 --> 00:41:18,668 you know, email or telegram or SMS or whatever it is, any communication channel, you can make a payment. 506 00:41:19,128 --> 00:41:27,508 So I wanted to see Bitcoin payments happening with tap to pay using Cashew by sending the e-cash token from one phone to another. 507 00:41:28,168 --> 00:41:32,388 And that was the first proof of concept I was able to only achieve because of AI. 508 00:41:32,888 --> 00:41:34,848 So I thought like, that's neat. Awesome. That's great. 509 00:41:34,848 --> 00:41:38,908 So this is exactly like these are the building blocks that I was looking for for so long. 510 00:41:38,908 --> 00:41:52,268 We have Cashew as a protocol that we can build on that runs on Bitcoin and with this incredible property that if you can send data, you can also send money. 511 00:41:52,888 --> 00:41:54,688 So that's what Cashew enables us. 512 00:41:55,108 --> 00:42:03,388 And at the same time, I just should clarify, if we deal with money, for example, the core libraries of Cashew, they're all handwritten. 513 00:42:03,388 --> 00:42:08,088 because we're not at a point yet where I can safely just say 514 00:42:08,088 --> 00:42:13,248 that the agent does a better job than I do in figuring out what could go wrong 515 00:42:13,248 --> 00:42:15,068 or how you could lose money and so on. 516 00:42:15,068 --> 00:42:18,668 So that's very important to us is the critical parts are 517 00:42:18,668 --> 00:42:21,808 handwritten, normal programmed libraries, 518 00:42:22,548 --> 00:42:24,948 and that's what usually a casual library is. 519 00:42:25,468 --> 00:42:28,008 But once you have that, once it's running, once it works, 520 00:42:28,348 --> 00:42:31,408 then you can build all the scaffolding around it, pipe coding. 521 00:42:31,408 --> 00:42:35,528 Like there's nothing that can go wrong basically because the library itself works. 522 00:42:35,928 --> 00:42:37,928 You know that you won't lose e-cash. 523 00:42:38,888 --> 00:42:41,268 So now let's build an app around it. 524 00:42:41,668 --> 00:42:46,288 So we started with this NFC chat, sending around e-cash tokens and then showing like, okay, this is possible. 525 00:42:46,768 --> 00:42:52,488 And then this ultimately ended, like culminated in something, in a project we call Numo. 526 00:42:52,588 --> 00:42:58,068 We've been working on this for a couple of months at this point in stealth mode. 527 00:42:58,068 --> 00:43:00,508 We haven't announced it to anyone until like yesterday. 528 00:43:00,508 --> 00:43:08,688 and Numo is our approach to introduce tab to pay to Bitcoin using eCash. 529 00:43:08,688 --> 00:43:17,188 Because with eCash, it has this very simple flow of data flowing from one phone, the payer, to the receiver, the POS device. 530 00:43:17,628 --> 00:43:21,088 So Numo runs on a normal Android POS. 531 00:43:21,268 --> 00:43:22,788 I have one here, I control it, for example. 532 00:43:23,028 --> 00:43:25,768 This is a standard POS that runs Android. 533 00:43:26,368 --> 00:43:30,248 But it can also be any Android device, any Android phone. 534 00:43:30,248 --> 00:43:36,968 So it needs to be an Android phone because iOS doesn't allow you to use the NFC chip in that way. 535 00:43:38,228 --> 00:43:42,168 So the POS device itself, of the merchant, runs Numo. 536 00:43:42,568 --> 00:43:48,668 And then any other phone, and now this can be iOS or Android, doesn't matter, can basically just tap to pay to it. 537 00:43:48,948 --> 00:43:57,128 And if it runs a cash audit, then the cash audit will see that there's an NFC chip and then take the token and send it over to the POS. 538 00:43:57,548 --> 00:43:58,288 And why is this cool? 539 00:43:58,288 --> 00:44:03,488 because, first of all, it's using eCash generally. 540 00:44:04,068 --> 00:44:09,148 Cash-to-us privacy inherits this incredible privacy by default. 541 00:44:09,868 --> 00:44:15,068 So while the UX is amazing, you also have the best privacy possible, 542 00:44:15,448 --> 00:44:17,348 which is a great combination. 543 00:44:17,728 --> 00:44:18,888 Usually you have a trade-off there. 544 00:44:19,548 --> 00:44:24,028 And the next best thing is that it works offline. 545 00:44:24,028 --> 00:44:39,468 So as a payer, so the device paying at the POS, could be your iPhone, your Android, doesn't need internet to make that actual payment because all you're doing is you take e-cash from your wallet and you set it over NFC without touching the internet. 546 00:44:39,928 --> 00:44:43,388 So that also gives you incredible privacy, obviously, because you're not even online. 547 00:44:43,988 --> 00:44:45,848 But it also means that it just works everywhere. 548 00:44:46,468 --> 00:44:51,308 And that's, again, one point that fiat payments already have been doing for years. 549 00:44:51,308 --> 00:44:58,968 If you do tap to pay with your credit card or if you do tap to pay with your phone, it also works while you're offline because your phone doesn't talk to the Internet. 550 00:44:59,188 --> 00:45:04,788 It kind of hands something like a token from the phone to the POS device in fiat land. 551 00:45:05,268 --> 00:45:11,228 And so we're doing now the same in Bitcoin land, but with incredible privacy and open protocol. 552 00:45:11,988 --> 00:45:17,168 And so the way it works today is you can install Numo on your Android device or on your POS device. 553 00:45:17,168 --> 00:45:20,228 It can be any generic POS device. 554 00:45:21,308 --> 00:45:23,308 and you can set up a cashew mint. 555 00:45:23,308 --> 00:45:25,068 So cashew is a custodial system. 556 00:45:25,068 --> 00:45:27,228 You need to trust the mint operator 557 00:45:27,228 --> 00:45:29,068 with the Bitcoin that you receive. 558 00:45:29,948 --> 00:45:32,268 So you set up one or more mints 559 00:45:32,268 --> 00:45:35,308 and then any payer from any mint, 560 00:45:35,308 --> 00:45:37,868 it can be like even if we don't share that mint, 561 00:45:37,868 --> 00:45:40,668 you can still pay with the eCash to the device 562 00:45:40,668 --> 00:45:42,908 and then the device will take that eCash 563 00:45:42,908 --> 00:45:45,628 and withdraw with Lightning to their mint. 564 00:45:45,628 --> 00:45:48,348 So anything, all the mints are still interoperable 565 00:45:48,348 --> 00:45:50,508 because we have Lightning that glues everything together. 566 00:45:50,508 --> 00:45:54,968 and you can receive payments from basically any Mint out there. 567 00:45:55,668 --> 00:45:57,688 And we've built a cool feature into Numu, 568 00:45:58,028 --> 00:46:01,348 obviously realizing, recognizing that it's custodial. 569 00:46:01,348 --> 00:46:05,048 There is a rug risk associated with the Mint that you're using. 570 00:46:05,468 --> 00:46:08,308 So you should only be using Mints that you trust already. 571 00:46:09,448 --> 00:46:12,328 But in Numu, there is a very simple way to say that 572 00:46:12,328 --> 00:46:15,768 if we ever reach 50,000 Satoshis, for example, 573 00:46:16,388 --> 00:46:17,928 you can enter a Lightning address there 574 00:46:17,928 --> 00:46:20,648 and it will just automatically withdraw to that Lightning address 575 00:46:20,648 --> 00:46:21,868 whenever you reach the threshold. 576 00:46:22,268 --> 00:46:27,648 So that way, you can build this POS in a way that the maximum amount 577 00:46:27,648 --> 00:46:31,888 that you put in custodial risk can be very limited. 578 00:46:32,548 --> 00:46:36,328 And so you can also withdraw every single payment if you like, 579 00:46:36,488 --> 00:46:40,008 but for very small payments, it might not make sense. 580 00:46:41,088 --> 00:46:43,648 So we've just released this yesterday. 581 00:46:43,648 --> 00:46:47,628 You can find it on numopay.org. 582 00:46:47,928 --> 00:46:54,628 download it, check it out, and we'll be working on a BTC Pay integration soon. 583 00:46:54,748 --> 00:46:59,928 We've already started working with that, so it also worked with existing BTC Pay server infrastructure. 584 00:47:00,628 --> 00:47:05,268 But if you don't want that, you can just download the Numero app itself. 585 00:47:05,408 --> 00:47:09,088 It doesn't need any backend. There is nothing that you need to install or set up. 586 00:47:09,588 --> 00:47:13,208 Just install the app, choose a mint, and you're done. So check it out. 587 00:47:13,208 --> 00:47:17,988 yeah i mean i completely agree i remember miles telling me that same story too 588 00:47:17,988 --> 00:47:25,808 i think the offline nature of the the ability to send cashew which should be e-cash via the 589 00:47:25,808 --> 00:47:31,068 protocol offline is massive because you think miles in that mountain in peru like his cell 590 00:47:31,068 --> 00:47:36,468 phone probably didn't have service but the secure enclave had his credentials for his card and then 591 00:47:36,468 --> 00:47:42,828 he was just able to send it to the pos and make the payment probably offline i'm assuming um and 592 00:47:42,828 --> 00:47:47,408 now we have feature parity via via eCash now. 593 00:47:47,408 --> 00:47:55,528 And I guess what do you want to see in terms of like what or what do you what do we need 594 00:47:55,528 --> 00:48:01,168 to see for this to become more prominent as a wallet sort of integration of the NFC standards? 595 00:48:01,968 --> 00:48:05,468 Is it proliferation of just simply more eCash wallets? 596 00:48:06,308 --> 00:48:07,628 What wallets work with it now? 597 00:48:07,728 --> 00:48:10,848 Like Macadamia, I'm pretty sure I could use Macadamia on iOS. 598 00:48:10,848 --> 00:48:20,008 And just to clarify, for the iOS stuff, you can pay with iOS, but running the POS to receive via NFC is something that you can't do. 599 00:48:20,408 --> 00:48:24,988 That's right. Exactly. To receive, you need an Android phone, but paying, you can do it with any phone. 600 00:48:25,548 --> 00:48:36,908 So, yeah, as I said, Macadamia, but they're already, we've worked in the background and we've added this NFC capability to around like six or seven different casual wallets at this point. 601 00:48:36,908 --> 00:48:41,828 Most of the popular cash wallets already support this from day one. 602 00:48:42,928 --> 00:48:46,068 And Numo also supports bare Lightning. 603 00:48:46,228 --> 00:48:49,528 So you don't need to have a cash wallet in order to use Numo. 604 00:48:49,848 --> 00:48:54,108 Obviously, that would limit the number of people who can pay with that terminal. 605 00:48:54,388 --> 00:48:58,228 So it supports Lightning just out of the box as well. 606 00:48:58,828 --> 00:49:02,468 And you can use any Lightning wallets to scan the QR code. 607 00:49:02,468 --> 00:49:10,368 And some Lightning wallets, particularly Phoenix, can also use Tab to pay for Lightning. 608 00:49:10,608 --> 00:49:14,388 So it will kind of fetch the Lightning invoice via NFC and then pay that over the Internet. 609 00:49:14,608 --> 00:49:17,808 So it is compatible with all the wallet infrastructure out there. 610 00:49:18,428 --> 00:49:31,968 But generally, the thing that limits growth in Bitcoin today is the utility, not the utility, but I want to say the penetration of Bitcoin. 611 00:49:31,968 --> 00:49:40,948 itself. So I'm very well aware of the fact that our technology can only grow as fast as Bitcoin 612 00:49:40,948 --> 00:49:46,048 can grow. And when I say grow Bitcoin, I mean people using Bitcoin, not the price going up. 613 00:49:46,568 --> 00:49:54,868 So our ultimate goal with Numo is to further Bitcoin as money. That's our main North Star 614 00:49:54,868 --> 00:50:00,908 goal for everything that we do, is to support the adoption of Bitcoin for everyday payments 615 00:50:00,908 --> 00:50:02,068 around the world. 616 00:50:02,708 --> 00:50:06,888 So the infrastructure for that is being built out, 617 00:50:06,988 --> 00:50:08,308 and there are great projects out there. 618 00:50:08,368 --> 00:50:12,068 For example, we've noted ETC Pay Server. 619 00:50:12,648 --> 00:50:17,348 So anyone could already use some form of on-chain payment, 620 00:50:17,568 --> 00:50:21,008 a Lightning payment with several existing solutions out there. 621 00:50:21,008 --> 00:50:30,328 But I think what's most needed today is kind of a penetration 622 00:50:30,328 --> 00:50:33,728 in real economic transactions. 623 00:50:34,308 --> 00:50:36,028 And we need more merchants to use Bitcoin. 624 00:50:37,028 --> 00:50:41,128 And I think that Cash App is doing an amazing job there. 625 00:50:41,128 --> 00:50:44,248 I should say Square, to be more precise. 626 00:50:45,408 --> 00:50:47,248 Square is doing an amazing job there. 627 00:50:47,348 --> 00:50:50,088 There's BTC Map that you can use to find merchants. 628 00:50:51,368 --> 00:50:53,288 There's obviously BTC Pay Server, 629 00:50:53,468 --> 00:50:57,128 which is the most popular kind of web checkout system 630 00:50:57,748 --> 00:51:00,248 that the Bitcoin ecosystem has produced. 631 00:51:01,248 --> 00:51:04,708 And so all these projects help towards the same goal. 632 00:51:05,348 --> 00:51:15,348 And we now support that effort as well using Numo and our NFC-capable payment systems that we built. 633 00:51:15,488 --> 00:51:23,508 If you want to support this in your Bitcoin wallet, what you can do is, first of all, look at all the NFC specs that exist in Bitcoin. 634 00:51:24,148 --> 00:51:26,408 You can read Lacking Invoices by NFC. 635 00:51:26,528 --> 00:51:29,428 If your app doesn't support that yet, think about integrating that. 636 00:51:29,428 --> 00:51:45,448 If you want truly the tap-to-pay offline instant experience that Cashew can give, then you can also just plug in a Cashew library into your Lightning wallet and pay with eCash for that single step. 637 00:51:45,628 --> 00:51:48,448 It doesn't even need to be a full-fledged Cashew wallet. 638 00:51:48,648 --> 00:51:54,128 You can just like that single one step that you want from Bitcoin to eCash. 639 00:51:54,368 --> 00:51:57,708 You can also do that in order to support tap-to-pay. 640 00:51:57,708 --> 00:51:59,828 So there are a couple of wallets working on that. 641 00:52:00,928 --> 00:52:06,908 And generally speaking, I think as a community, as a bigger project than Bitcoin, 642 00:52:07,308 --> 00:52:12,868 we need to help get Bitcoin more onto the radar of merchants 643 00:52:12,868 --> 00:52:19,008 and hope and drive the adoption of real brick-and-mortar stores. 644 00:52:19,608 --> 00:52:22,488 So that's what we want to contribute to. 645 00:52:23,668 --> 00:52:24,428 I completely agree. 646 00:52:24,748 --> 00:52:26,708 Thank you for your focus on this. 647 00:52:26,708 --> 00:52:33,528 It's funny, too, because when we last recorded, I think I asked what your archetypal cashew user was. 648 00:52:33,608 --> 00:52:37,188 And you said a woman in the jungle selling selling mangoes. 649 00:52:37,588 --> 00:52:42,768 And I think I think we knew MoPay and projects like a BTC pay server. 650 00:52:43,348 --> 00:52:45,428 I think that's going to proliferate. 651 00:52:46,428 --> 00:52:55,688 Obviously, what Square is doing here in the United States for their merchants, I mean, merchant adoption, because of Square's rollout at the end of last year went literally parabolic. 652 00:52:55,688 --> 00:53:15,232 I think there was something like 2 merchants on BTCMAP There probably more than them in the United States that haven put their store on BTC map But I think the way Square rolled it out and Cash App in collaboration 653 00:53:15,232 --> 00:53:18,172 with them rolled it out, they automatically added all these merchants and went from like 654 00:53:18,172 --> 00:53:22,452 2,500 to over 6,000 over the course of a month, which is great to see. 655 00:53:22,452 --> 00:53:27,692 shifting gears back to this intersection of AI 656 00:53:27,692 --> 00:53:30,752 in Bitcoin and particularly Casio 657 00:53:30,752 --> 00:53:33,692 it's a big topic of discussion right now 658 00:53:33,692 --> 00:53:37,492 particularly in our world and in the fintech world as well 659 00:53:37,492 --> 00:53:41,732 is agents using payments on the network 660 00:53:41,732 --> 00:53:45,192 excuse me, using payments with each other 661 00:53:45,192 --> 00:53:48,412 to complete tasks on behalf of the humans 662 00:53:48,412 --> 00:53:49,712 sending them out to do things 663 00:53:49,712 --> 00:53:52,812 And I think it's a wide open landscape right now. 664 00:53:52,932 --> 00:53:55,252 I think you have Visa, MasterCard working on their own protocols. 665 00:53:55,352 --> 00:53:59,072 You have Stripe, then obviously you have stable coins, Bitcoin over Lightning. 666 00:53:59,612 --> 00:54:06,692 I saw that the guys at ARK Labs launched the ability to receive stable coins and automatically 667 00:54:06,692 --> 00:54:10,812 turn them into VTXOs via their ARK protocol implementation. 668 00:54:11,492 --> 00:54:17,892 And then obviously we have eCash and CashU specifically with the NUT402 protocol. 669 00:54:17,892 --> 00:54:24,612 and i think you've made the case that due to this sort of error nature of ecash and the fact that 670 00:54:24,612 --> 00:54:30,292 you can send the file that it's actually um the most efficient way for agents to make payments is 671 00:54:30,292 --> 00:54:36,532 that correct characterization yeah so that was just like from from our experience what instantly 672 00:54:36,532 --> 00:54:41,412 worked it was extremely simple it was almost shockingly simple to teach an agent how to use 673 00:54:41,412 --> 00:54:48,692 cashew because we basically told him you know here's your cli and the cli it will produce cashew 674 00:54:48,692 --> 00:54:53,892 tokens and you take the token and do something with it depending on what you're doing and 675 00:54:53,892 --> 00:54:59,012 instantly got that and because you don't have this get an address here check your balance there 676 00:54:59,012 --> 00:55:06,612 send sign and send you have these packets of data that the agent can simply send in an htp request 677 00:55:06,612 --> 00:55:15,572 for example so what today you know getting back to the original um question or the idea of 402 678 00:55:15,572 --> 00:55:22,372 payments or 810 payments i think it's a very hot topic today we're still yet to see how much of 679 00:55:22,372 --> 00:55:27,732 that sticks because we're in this like discovery mode of agents what should they do how much money 680 00:55:27,732 --> 00:55:34,772 would you give them how dependable are they with the money that you give them and so on there are 681 00:55:34,772 --> 00:55:40,372 stories out there of an agent like sending a random stranger 350k or something because he 682 00:55:40,372 --> 00:55:46,532 begged him online and the agent made like a single mistake and the person who owns that agent lost a 683 00:55:46,532 --> 00:55:52,612 substantial amount of money due to that uh because they were kind of you know trying at all i guess 684 00:55:53,492 --> 00:55:59,892 so um how much of that really manifests we will see but it is clear that the the big ones and i 685 00:55:59,892 --> 00:56:07,372 You mentioned the big fiat one, the big fiat monsters like MasterCard and Visa and also Stripe are looking into it. 686 00:56:07,372 --> 00:56:17,712 What frustrated me a lot looking at this is that the 402 idea, the idea that we will have services online that ask for money. 687 00:56:18,012 --> 00:56:27,312 So you want your machine to be able to pay another machine is a very Bitcoin driven topic, has been a Bitcoin driven topic in the last years. 688 00:56:27,312 --> 00:56:31,472 for the last 10 years or so, 689 00:56:31,772 --> 00:56:33,912 the only people who talked about this were Bitcoiners 690 00:56:33,912 --> 00:56:37,172 because we always thought of ourselves 691 00:56:37,172 --> 00:56:40,612 and still think of ourselves as the native currency of the Internet. 692 00:56:40,612 --> 00:56:44,192 So obviously the connection there is pretty direct. 693 00:56:44,892 --> 00:56:48,992 And there's been development from Lightning Labs on L402. 694 00:56:50,012 --> 00:56:54,872 We've been contributing to 402 with X402 and cash payments. 695 00:56:55,092 --> 00:56:57,132 The Albi guys have been working on this as well. 696 00:56:57,312 --> 00:57:03,972 So it was kind of only this niche topic until the agent came a couple months ago. 697 00:57:04,472 --> 00:57:16,652 And then you saw Coinbase working on it, Stripe working on it, the credit card providers working on it, because they all seem to agree that payments of machines to machines will be a thing. 698 00:57:17,272 --> 00:57:25,012 And the rails that they market or want to see being used are usually stablecoins. 699 00:57:25,012 --> 00:57:34,552 And stablecoins have the benefit of feeling more natural to people, I think. 700 00:57:35,112 --> 00:57:43,972 I think the cognitive leap to use a stablecoin is way smaller than the cognitive leap to use Bitcoin. 701 00:57:44,532 --> 00:57:48,072 Because the stablecoin is denominated in the same currency that you already use. 702 00:57:48,092 --> 00:57:53,112 So it feels like you're still just doing the same thing, but now in a kind of a digital way or something. 703 00:57:53,112 --> 00:58:04,952 So the stablecoin people have been pushing really hard to make sure that the agents of the future will use USDC or USDT or whatever it is. 704 00:58:05,512 --> 00:58:16,852 Obviously, I don't want to see that future happening because I think it destroys the fiat system and stablecoins are inherently trust-based. 705 00:58:16,852 --> 00:58:20,632 And there's all sorts of problems with that. 706 00:58:21,112 --> 00:58:26,972 You need KYC to get in and out and all these problems with civil coins that Bitcoin doesn't have. 707 00:58:27,072 --> 00:58:31,452 Bitcoin just is born on the Internet and lives on the Internet and doesn't leave the Internet. 708 00:58:31,592 --> 00:58:32,712 It stays inside the Internet. 709 00:58:33,432 --> 00:58:38,432 And so that's why Bitcoin is still the native currency of the Internet. 710 00:58:38,752 --> 00:58:44,872 And civil projects in the Bitcoin space have been trying to, you know, also rival this new trend 711 00:58:44,872 --> 00:58:49,392 and make sure at least that we're up there with the others 712 00:58:49,392 --> 00:58:58,712 and can show that we show up and that we are ready to compete with them. 713 00:58:59,492 --> 00:59:05,192 And one example is the art protocol that I think is a fantastic idea to use. 714 00:59:05,472 --> 00:59:08,312 I checked it out already and it works really well. 715 00:59:08,932 --> 00:59:12,872 And another way of doing it for even smaller transactions 716 00:59:12,872 --> 00:59:14,392 and high frequency transactions. 717 00:59:15,072 --> 00:59:16,592 Cache is just amazing for it 718 00:59:16,592 --> 00:59:18,372 because it's basically instant, 719 00:59:18,532 --> 00:59:21,952 basically free and with insane privacy. 720 00:59:22,572 --> 00:59:23,852 All of these factors, I think, 721 00:59:23,892 --> 00:59:24,732 are super important, 722 00:59:25,032 --> 00:59:26,832 especially in an agentic world. 723 00:59:27,552 --> 00:59:30,192 So eCache is just something 724 00:59:30,192 --> 00:59:34,072 that works really, really well with agents. 725 00:59:35,092 --> 00:59:36,252 Yeah, and particularly in a world 726 00:59:36,252 --> 00:59:39,852 where the subject of ID verification 727 00:59:39,852 --> 00:59:42,652 on the internet is becoming more prominent. 728 00:59:42,872 --> 00:59:48,572 I think the ability to opt out and have these internet-native options 729 00:59:48,572 --> 00:59:53,032 that don't require KYC at the edges like stablecoins are imperative 730 00:59:53,032 --> 00:59:55,892 because it seems like the digital ID conversation 731 00:59:55,892 --> 00:59:57,872 is definitely beginning to pick up again. 732 00:59:59,272 --> 01:00:00,652 Every stablecoin is permissioned. 733 01:00:00,652 --> 01:00:04,492 All of them can be turned off if they don't like your digital ID. 734 01:00:05,752 --> 01:00:05,932 Yeah. 735 01:00:07,192 --> 01:00:09,952 I want to be respectful of your time because I know I pinged you 736 01:00:09,952 --> 01:00:12,712 in the afternoon yesterday to do this. 737 01:00:12,872 --> 01:00:19,532 And you were gracious enough to do this last minute, but to end it, love getting philosophical with you. 738 01:00:19,532 --> 01:00:25,672 Last year when we spoke, I really dove into how you view yourself as an artist in the digital world. 739 01:00:25,712 --> 01:00:29,812 And I think what you've done since then has proven that to be true. 740 01:00:29,972 --> 01:00:36,692 But thinking about the proliferation of these AI tools and humans beginning to interact with these at an accelerating pace. 741 01:00:38,452 --> 01:00:39,692 What are your hopes for the future? 742 01:00:39,692 --> 01:00:50,352 Obviously, the meme of the permanent underclasses here, the meme of the singularity and Skynet having been launched already and will only recognize it in retrospect is beginning to permeate. 743 01:00:50,812 --> 01:00:54,572 What is your view for how these tools affect our humanity? 744 01:00:56,352 --> 01:00:57,792 Oh, that's a that's a big one. 745 01:00:57,792 --> 01:01:01,252 Because so first I'll start with my craft. 746 01:01:02,012 --> 01:01:05,812 And I hinted towards this already in the beginning of our conversation today. 747 01:01:06,132 --> 01:01:14,312 But it's been amazing to watch how things can change in a way and in a pace that no one would have predicted. 748 01:01:14,312 --> 01:01:22,052 the penetration, the proliferation of AI in society 749 01:01:22,052 --> 01:01:26,732 was always predicted to have the most negative influences 750 01:01:26,732 --> 01:01:31,392 on the old kind of manual job markets 751 01:01:31,392 --> 01:01:34,992 and the plumber and the robots will come 752 01:01:34,992 --> 01:01:37,452 and everyone will lose their jobs and so on, 753 01:01:37,952 --> 01:01:40,512 which I think is still a risk. 754 01:01:41,072 --> 01:01:43,792 But I wouldn't have predicted myself 755 01:01:43,792 --> 01:01:49,252 that programmers would be the ones who are affected first or even the most, 756 01:01:49,512 --> 01:01:51,652 and I think probably will be the most. 757 01:01:52,272 --> 01:01:56,232 So we are at a time, you know, zooming out, 758 01:01:56,912 --> 01:02:02,112 that software engineers had this incredible run in the last decade or two 759 01:02:02,112 --> 01:02:07,712 and made astronomical sums of money and still software engineering, 760 01:02:07,712 --> 01:02:10,732 you know, the salaries associated with it, 761 01:02:10,732 --> 01:02:14,212 kind of like still detached from rest of society. 762 01:02:14,692 --> 01:02:21,852 So we have been seeing a decoupling of what you just maybe called 763 01:02:21,852 --> 01:02:27,112 the permanent underclass and the Silicon Valley upper class. 764 01:02:27,972 --> 01:02:33,752 But what I see is what's happening right now is changing that drastically. 765 01:02:34,372 --> 01:02:36,692 And I think that's maybe for the better 766 01:02:36,692 --> 01:02:41,652 because software engineering has never changed this fast before 767 01:02:41,652 --> 01:02:46,472 and has become just way more accessible to many, many more people. 768 01:02:46,692 --> 01:02:52,092 It's not this exclusive skill anymore that you have to acquire yourself 769 01:02:52,092 --> 01:02:54,972 by decades and decades of working on your own 770 01:02:54,972 --> 01:03:00,972 and acquiring all these special skills that you can then use to find a job, for example. 771 01:03:00,972 --> 01:03:12,892 So every software engineer out there who still didn't get it, I just want to say it again, you will lose your job in five years, you're done if you're not using AI. 772 01:03:12,892 --> 01:03:15,132 Like, I'm sure of this. 773 01:03:15,312 --> 01:03:21,152 And I cannot say this about, like, another job category just yet. 774 01:03:21,592 --> 01:03:41,212 So I think it's just a, let's say, let's see, it's ironic that today's, in today's world, the plumber and the carpenter and, you know, manual labor folks are, I think, more valuable than ever before. 775 01:03:41,212 --> 01:03:46,392 and have more security about their jobs than ever before 776 01:03:46,392 --> 01:03:50,152 relative to the rest of society. 777 01:03:50,772 --> 01:03:52,112 But that is something to think about. 778 01:03:52,812 --> 01:03:56,372 It's almost beautiful to see it happen this way. 779 01:03:57,212 --> 01:04:01,352 And at the same time, getting a bit more philosophical on this is 780 01:04:01,352 --> 01:04:04,712 when we last talked, I spoke of software engineering 781 01:04:04,712 --> 01:04:10,552 as something like an art form where if you have the energy to produce, 782 01:04:11,212 --> 01:04:16,572 and you have the skill that you can really affect the world with your ideas, 783 01:04:16,572 --> 01:04:26,972 which is ultimately how I think what drives art itself is finding ways to materialize your thoughts. 784 01:04:26,972 --> 01:04:31,852 That can be a book or a painting, but it can also be software. 785 01:04:31,852 --> 01:04:38,812 And although we're in this renaissance of software development, 786 01:04:38,812 --> 01:04:45,852 we're seeing that the brush really doesn't matter as much as we thought it would anymore. 787 01:04:45,852 --> 01:04:49,932 So the manual part of it is just completely changing. 788 01:04:50,492 --> 01:04:55,832 But that means that the rest of software development is becoming more important. 789 01:04:56,712 --> 01:05:05,112 So now that everyone can write software, or those who can write software before can write even more software, 790 01:05:05,112 --> 01:05:15,512 software just becomes kind of like a disposable artifact of your activity so what matters now is 791 01:05:15,512 --> 01:05:23,172 why why do you do what you do and that makes things a bit more complicated as a human to 792 01:05:23,172 --> 01:05:27,972 figure out why you do something or what you should be doing what's a good thing to do you know what 793 01:05:27,972 --> 01:05:34,172 makes sense to do those require a completely different set of skills to figure out good 794 01:05:34,172 --> 01:05:40,592 answers to these questions than just like the learning Postgres and C-sharp and whatever. 795 01:05:41,452 --> 01:05:41,492 Right. 796 01:05:41,612 --> 01:05:47,352 So now it's about ideas and execution. 797 01:05:48,312 --> 01:05:51,792 Some people say taste and aesthetics. 798 01:05:53,612 --> 01:06:01,232 But I also think about communication and marketing and trying to explain to people 799 01:06:01,232 --> 01:06:06,152 why you do certain things and why they should be interested in it. 800 01:06:06,592 --> 01:06:12,892 So all of these way more human things and way more soft-skilled things 801 01:06:12,892 --> 01:06:16,172 are suddenly at the center of software development. 802 01:06:17,632 --> 01:06:22,532 And so I think that's the reason why everything is going to change 803 01:06:22,532 --> 01:06:24,012 and it's changing right now. 804 01:06:24,532 --> 01:06:28,532 So we might see a new wave of software. 805 01:06:28,532 --> 01:06:32,652 where we might see a new wave of cyber culture emerge 806 01:06:32,652 --> 01:06:36,752 because of these changes that we're experiencing, right, Neil? 807 01:06:37,632 --> 01:06:42,912 Yeah, we may find that all the fears of our humanity being stripped from us 808 01:06:42,912 --> 01:06:44,812 are actually completely wrong, 809 01:06:45,112 --> 01:06:48,452 and the technology forces us to explore our own humanity 810 01:06:48,452 --> 01:06:50,852 and bring it out via our creative endeavors 811 01:06:50,852 --> 01:06:53,332 in the world of projectionist software. 812 01:06:53,332 --> 01:07:05,512 There is this idea that it's popular in this universal basic income circles about what do you do once you have everything you need? 813 01:07:05,852 --> 01:07:08,592 What do you do if you don't have to work anymore? 814 01:07:09,772 --> 01:07:15,112 And it forces us as humans to really answer that question. 815 01:07:15,272 --> 01:07:23,072 I think that question is important, whether UBI has arrived or not, whether everything is fully automated or not. 816 01:07:23,072 --> 01:07:27,832 You should be asking yourself this question like 10 years ago. 817 01:07:28,532 --> 01:07:32,592 And today, you're forced to ask that question. 818 01:07:32,812 --> 01:07:34,932 If you're a software engineer, you're literally forced today. 819 01:07:35,512 --> 01:07:40,712 If you're not a software engineer, you'll be forced in like five years to answer that question, maybe in 10. 820 01:07:41,572 --> 01:07:46,492 And the good thing is that we're getting more prosperous as a society. 821 01:07:46,672 --> 01:07:47,712 Hopefully, at least we can all. 822 01:07:47,892 --> 01:07:50,292 I mean, if this doesn't turn into a dystopia. 823 01:07:50,292 --> 01:07:55,532 But the good news is that we only have more time on our hands, more life quality on our 824 01:07:55,532 --> 01:08:00,012 hands to think about the more important questions like who do we want to be? 825 01:08:00,012 --> 01:08:01,572 What is the goal of all our actions? 826 01:08:01,572 --> 01:08:04,212 How do we want to live in a society? 827 01:08:04,212 --> 01:08:05,892 What should this world look like? 828 01:08:05,892 --> 01:08:12,452 So there's room for new ideas and it's the most exciting times to be alive. 829 01:08:12,452 --> 01:08:15,372 It really is. 830 01:08:15,372 --> 01:08:16,372 It really is. 831 01:08:16,372 --> 01:08:18,412 Happy that you have that perspective. 832 01:08:18,712 --> 01:08:21,532 Somebody I respect in the world of software development. 833 01:08:21,812 --> 01:08:24,672 It's great to see that you're optimistic about this. 834 01:08:25,972 --> 01:08:27,972 Thank you for all you've done. 835 01:08:28,212 --> 01:08:33,572 I mean, from BitChat to Cache Protocol, now Numopay, Clawi.ai, 836 01:08:33,872 --> 01:08:37,632 making this agentic world more accessible for other people 837 01:08:37,632 --> 01:08:39,732 who I think should be experimenting with this. 838 01:08:39,732 --> 01:08:43,952 It's insane to see what you've shipped since we last recorded. 839 01:08:44,192 --> 01:08:45,412 So keep it up, brother. 840 01:08:46,372 --> 01:08:55,772 Thank you. And I want to forward all of those great words that you just shared with me also to the team, which did most of that work. 841 01:08:55,772 --> 01:09:01,632 And we are a great developer team with incredible people who are working on cashew day and night. 842 01:09:02,312 --> 01:09:06,492 And we all just want to see Bitcoin succeed. 843 01:09:06,812 --> 01:09:15,132 And I also want to use this dance to talk to the people who are listening out there thinking, you know, what should I do? 844 01:09:15,132 --> 01:09:23,292 how can I help, how can I help improve this world we live in, is I, you know, this is a, 845 01:09:25,772 --> 01:09:33,372 Bitcoin is a free and open source system that lives off the contributions of people like you. 846 01:09:34,172 --> 01:09:42,652 And if people don't choose to work on Bitcoin, Bitcoin stops working, it will die. So I hope that, 847 01:09:42,652 --> 01:09:46,412 you know there's at least one person out there with things like i've been a software engineer 848 01:09:46,412 --> 01:09:53,212 all my life and i'm fed up with this job and i want to do something else to consider you consider 849 01:09:53,212 --> 01:10:00,172 becoming a bitcoin developer and help with you know help us with driving these freedom technologies 850 01:10:00,172 --> 01:10:07,692 forward because no one else is doing it there is no one except this circle of people that we've 851 01:10:07,692 --> 01:10:17,772 talked about trying to counteract the massive growth of surveillance technology and centralized 852 01:10:17,772 --> 01:10:25,372 control. And so if you feel that you need or you can change something in your life and you want to 853 01:10:25,372 --> 01:10:31,372 contribute your energy towards something good, please join us and become a Bitcoin developer, 854 01:10:31,372 --> 01:10:36,572 become a cash developer, look at BidChat, look at all the other projects that are out there and 855 01:10:36,572 --> 01:10:37,132 contribute. 856 01:10:38,232 --> 01:10:39,852 If not you, then who? 857 01:10:40,432 --> 01:10:41,952 Ali, it's been a pleasure, sir. 858 01:10:42,992 --> 01:10:44,312 Likewise. Thank you, Marty. 859 01:10:45,032 --> 01:10:45,772 Peace and love, freaks.