1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:01,640
John Tinsman, welcome to the show.

2
00:00:02,220 --> 00:00:03,500
It's a pleasure to be here, Marty.

3
00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:04,000
Thank you.

4
00:00:04,300 --> 00:00:06,040
It's a pleasure to have you on such short notice, too.

5
00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:08,080
I think we threw this together less than 12 hours ago.

6
00:00:09,040 --> 00:00:15,700
I'm excited to have this conversation because we've had analysts covering the AI space on

7
00:00:15,700 --> 00:00:17,520
quite a few times over the last year.

8
00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:19,100
Jordy Visser, probably the most prominent.

9
00:00:19,300 --> 00:00:25,080
I've really liked his coverage and was telling you before we hit record, I found some clips

10
00:00:25,080 --> 00:00:29,400
of you talking about your thesis and what you're doing and said I had to reach out to

11
00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:35,280
John, get him on the show. And for anybody who's unaware, John is the founder and portfolio manager

12
00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:41,440
of AOT Invest, which trades on NASDAQ. He's also the director of procurement and investments at

13
00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:46,820
Twin State Inc. Family fertilizer business, which is maybe a topic we can get to later. But I think

14
00:00:46,820 --> 00:00:54,440
really respecting your time and jumping into it. I think first laying out your framework,

15
00:00:54,440 --> 00:01:07,920
I believe your thesis is low marginal cost, high growth businesses trying to find who can outlay the least capital and get the highest multiple on that capital for your ETFs.

16
00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:16,820
And I think just walking us through that, because most people hear AI investing, they think NVIDIA, but your framework filters for something more specific from what I understand.

17
00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:21,740
Yeah. So my first ETF I launched in 2022 is AOTG.

18
00:01:21,740 --> 00:01:24,780
That's the ticker, the AOT Growth and Innovation ETF.

19
00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:35,380
So I came from the world of market making, which was all about high speed and algorithmic trading and statistical probability.

20
00:01:35,660 --> 00:01:39,760
So I tried to take that statistical probability to long term investing.

21
00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:48,320
And so when you invest 10 years from now, you can almost guarantee that the stocks that have gone up the most have had the best earnings growth.

22
00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:53,360
So like in 10 years, if there's a company that's earning 30x more, that is probably have gone up quite a bit.

23
00:01:54,880 --> 00:02:02,020
And so I think like when you invest for the future, you think, well, what companies give me the best probability of earning the most in the future?

24
00:02:02,220 --> 00:02:07,780
And so the first thing I came back to was the companies that are earning the most today, like growing the fastest earnings today.

25
00:02:07,940 --> 00:02:12,920
So like companies that have really high earnings growth statistically are the most likely to be doing that again tomorrow.

26
00:02:12,920 --> 00:02:17,500
So I target and I wait by high earnings growth and high revenue growth.

27
00:02:17,500 --> 00:02:22,620
which is really unlike modern investments, I think, because the modern investments,

28
00:02:22,780 --> 00:02:27,880
I think, fall into two categories. You've got the index funds that are waiting by market cap.

29
00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:32,840
So if you have a growth fund, Apple might be a top weight, and Apple's barely growing faster than

30
00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:38,200
inflation. And so why would you not put a top weight in something like Micron instead if they're

31
00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:43,720
growing their revenue at 300% year over year? It's a good question to ask. Why would you not

32
00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:50,080
weight higher on companies like AMD and SanDisk if they're growing their earnings at 1,000% year

33
00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:53,640
over year. You would think in a growth fund, you would want the highest possible growth.

34
00:02:54,320 --> 00:03:00,180
So that's what I do in AOTG. And then the other thing about active management,

35
00:03:00,540 --> 00:03:06,960
modern active management, is that they focus a lot on the betas and the sharp ratios and things like

36
00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:11,360
that. And that was counterintuitive because you're using a backward-looking volatility metric.

37
00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:13,660
So like, it's not necessarily indicative of the future.

38
00:03:14,220 --> 00:03:18,040
Meanwhile, you kind of avoid companies that are doing really well if they just go up and

39
00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:20,080
down too much, maybe like Sandisk and Micron.

40
00:03:20,500 --> 00:03:25,600
So like, I kind of take a common sense approach to buying high growth companies at the most

41
00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:27,320
reasonable valuation metrics possible.

42
00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:31,380
So if there's something like super overpriced, like Palantir, it won't be in my fund.

43
00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:36,340
And, you know, even if it is decent growth, like why would you even bother wasting your

44
00:03:36,340 --> 00:03:40,500
ammunition on it if you can buy something at one 10th evaluation metrics, three times

45
00:03:40,500 --> 00:03:40,900
the growth?

46
00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:53,180
So I take that approach with AOTG. And then number two, the second highest thing I found correlated with long term stock price performance in my research was low marginal cost.

47
00:03:53,440 --> 00:04:00,420
And I think this one's really interesting because nobody else was focusing on it. And that's the second criteria for AOTG, high growth and low marginal cost.

48
00:04:00,420 --> 00:04:06,840
So low marginal cost is the cost to produce one additional unit of good. So think about a company like Microsoft.

49
00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:12,740
If they make one additional unit of Microsoft Office and sell it to you, that costs them nothing to make.

50
00:04:13,140 --> 00:04:17,300
That means they have 100% profit margin, which is great for shareholders.

51
00:04:17,660 --> 00:04:20,640
That means they can scale to meet demand without any debt.

52
00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:25,740
And then they can also have an enormous amount of free cash flow to keep innovating.

53
00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:29,140
So you've got higher innovation, higher profits, higher growth.

54
00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:31,940
You compare that to a traditional company like Boeing.

55
00:04:31,940 --> 00:04:36,180
if they have to build another airplane for, you know, and they're selling it for a hundred million

56
00:04:36,180 --> 00:04:40,960
dollars, it might actually cost them $99 million. And if they really want to grow, so they have a

57
00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:45,020
very low profit margin on new sales. And if they really want to grow, they have to build new

58
00:04:45,020 --> 00:04:50,920
factories and then they have to sell product at a negative profit margin to steal the business

59
00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:55,860
from a company like Airbus. So growth, not only is it funded by huge amounts of debt, it comes

60
00:04:55,860 --> 00:04:59,580
instead with a hundred percent profit margins. It comes with negative profit margins and losses.

61
00:04:59,580 --> 00:05:04,880
So that's traditional industry. I learned this in my family business, a fertilizer,

62
00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:08,420
because I always like, I'm ambitious guys, like let's grow the business. And everybody's like,

63
00:05:08,460 --> 00:05:11,960
no, if you grow the business, you'll just light your money on fire and you'll never see it again.

64
00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:16,800
And so it's like, let's just be happy with what we have. And it was hard for me to wrap my head

65
00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:20,460
around that being, you know, wanting to grow and do better than the year before every year.

66
00:05:20,460 --> 00:05:28,740
Um, so, uh, and so I take that investment approach, uh, that I've learned from personal,

67
00:05:28,740 --> 00:05:33,960
you know, managing family businesses and took it to an ETF and focus on that high growth,

68
00:05:34,020 --> 00:05:36,580
low marginal costs within profitable businesses.

69
00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:42,220
And so it's been out for, you know, three and a half or four years and it's up, you know,

70
00:05:42,220 --> 00:05:46,800
it launched at 24, um, on the NASDAQ and it's trading.

71
00:05:46,940 --> 00:05:48,540
I think it traded yesterday in the 63.

72
00:05:48,540 --> 00:05:51,540
So in that short amount of time, it's up over 160%.

73
00:05:51,540 --> 00:05:55,540
So it's been great to do well for shareholders, of which I'm a big one, of course.

74
00:05:55,540 --> 00:05:56,900
It's like, oh, and I have all my money in.

75
00:05:58,460 --> 00:06:04,340
Well, I mean, jumping like deeper into the framework and particularly, I think your hottest

76
00:06:04,340 --> 00:06:09,460
thesis right now, which is being all over this XAI Anthropic deal, which was announced,

77
00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:12,540
I believe, last week or the week before, or Anthropic, I believe they're paying what?

78
00:06:12,620 --> 00:06:18,480
1.9, 1.6 to 1.9 billion a month in compute from one of the Colossus sites.

79
00:06:19,180 --> 00:06:19,400
Yeah.

80
00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:19,860
Yeah.

81
00:06:19,860 --> 00:06:22,760
And I tweeted about it because I hadn't seen anybody talk about it.

82
00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:26,620
I'd seen people talk about, oh, they're leasing it, but nobody had talked about the profitability

83
00:06:26,620 --> 00:06:27,300
metrics.

84
00:06:27,300 --> 00:06:30,660
They were open up the, they opened up, it's so crazy.

85
00:06:30,1000 --> 00:06:33,540
Marty, they opened up the S1 and they're like, oh, ha ha ha.

86
00:06:33,620 --> 00:06:36,400
Look at how much money XAI is losing.

87
00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:41,880
And in that, they basically had $15 billion a year coming online like next month.

88
00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:45,880
So like in like three days and they somehow didn't realize that it's going to be making

89
00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:46,220
money.

90
00:06:46,220 --> 00:06:55,320
Like, not only is the XAI revenue going to jump 300%, maybe a lot more, but a year over year, but also they're going to be making a ton of money.

91
00:06:56,060 --> 00:07:01,220
And so, and so the, so like everybody was just kind of wrong on their take.

92
00:07:01,300 --> 00:07:04,480
And so I tweeted this and like all the celebrities are in the replies.

93
00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:08,280
It's gotten like hundreds of thousands of views on X, maybe millions by now I haven't checked.

94
00:07:08,740 --> 00:07:14,380
But, but the interesting thing is that they spent three to 4 billion.

95
00:07:14,380 --> 00:07:16,060
And some people say as high as $7 billion.

96
00:07:16,220 --> 00:07:17,860
And these are kind of closely guarded secrets.

97
00:07:18,020 --> 00:07:23,260
You kind of have to look at how much XAI was spending and try to say, okay, how much of that did they spend on Colossus 1?

98
00:07:23,620 --> 00:07:25,940
But they built a 300 megawatt data center.

99
00:07:26,180 --> 00:07:28,300
They did it in 122 days.

100
00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:34,720
And, you know, this thing probably costs a couple hundred million dollars a year to run on the very highest side.

101
00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:36,520
You know, it might cost only $150.

102
00:07:36,780 --> 00:07:37,120
I don't know.

103
00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:44,220
Um, but so if they spent 4 billion on it, let's just say, and they, they lease it to XAI for $15

104
00:07:44,220 --> 00:07:50,200
billion a year for three years, it will make $45 million on a $4 million invest a billion,

105
00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:56,800
$45 billion on a $4 billion investment. So that's a 10 X ROI. And I think in three years,

106
00:07:56,800 --> 00:08:01,640
the asset is probably will appreciate it in value. So like, I don't think like it's depreciating.

107
00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:08,080
I think it'll still be very useful in three years. So the ROI is really a lot higher than 10X,

108
00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:13,820
in my opinion. And so that's like the tip of the iceberg, because I think this is a closely

109
00:08:13,820 --> 00:08:18,040
guarded secret in the industry. Nobody wants to talk about how much money they're making in data

110
00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:23,100
centers because they don't want everybody to know. At the same time, the hyperscalers are spending a

111
00:08:23,100 --> 00:08:28,540
trillion dollars now this year building them. And did you know Microsoft and Google, historically,

112
00:08:28,540 --> 00:08:34,080
their return on capital invested is over 35%. And why are they spending so much more now?

113
00:08:34,460 --> 00:08:40,600
Is the ROI trending upwards to 100%? And if you look at Google Cloud, if you look at Microsoft

114
00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:46,700
Azure, if you look at Amazon Web Services, Oracle, it seems like it quite possibly is.

115
00:08:46,940 --> 00:08:50,520
The revenue growth is accelerating. The profit margins are getting fatter and fatter.

116
00:08:51,140 --> 00:08:55,480
And I think there's a chance that what we're doing is we're building data centers in the US

117
00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:59,640
and releasing it out to the rest of the world at like 90% profit margins.

118
00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:01,620
And I live in Iowa.

119
00:09:01,740 --> 00:09:02,660
I'm not sure where you are, Marty.

120
00:09:03,100 --> 00:09:05,960
But like the data center boom here is huge.

121
00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:10,880
Like my neighbors work for Oracle, electricians and welders that used to be making like $50,000

122
00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:14,580
a year, making $250,000 a year building these things.

123
00:09:14,780 --> 00:09:16,380
And like they're going up everywhere.

124
00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:19,740
And it's just bringing an enormous amount of wealth.

125
00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:20,780
But here's the crazy thing.

126
00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:23,700
You talk to these people and they're booked out five years.

127
00:09:23,700 --> 00:09:26,960
Like the data center demand is not going down.

128
00:09:27,340 --> 00:09:34,020
Meanwhile, Anthropic grew their tokens sold by 80X in 12 months.

129
00:09:34,380 --> 00:09:34,800
12 months.

130
00:09:35,020 --> 00:09:40,460
And Goldman Sachs is saying they think they're going to see another 24X token demand growth.

131
00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:46,700
And so we are so far past 20% revenue growth, 34% revenue growth.

132
00:09:46,740 --> 00:09:51,200
When you're starting 80X, 24X, how do you even value that?

133
00:09:51,260 --> 00:09:52,300
And it's so bullish.

134
00:09:52,300 --> 00:09:59,380
The ROI is so good on data centers that as people really going to order less semiconductors, because people are like, are we at the top of a cycle?

135
00:09:59,560 --> 00:10:01,840
And you look at the numbers and you're like, this is absurd.

136
00:10:01,900 --> 00:10:03,420
I've never seen anything like this before.

137
00:10:03,940 --> 00:10:11,040
And so I think there's like why it's always good when you invest to have a little bit of pessimism and make sure you keep in mind the downside potential.

138
00:10:11,460 --> 00:10:16,800
I think it's really good to be focused on the upside right now and not to kid yourself about like what the potential is.

139
00:10:17,140 --> 00:10:19,300
Can't be dooming. Can't be doing especially not right now.

140
00:10:19,300 --> 00:10:21,340
And it's funny today in our newsletter, we actually covered it.

141
00:10:21,340 --> 00:10:24,260
We've been sleuthing the banking reports.

142
00:10:24,340 --> 00:10:28,580
One came out of Morgan Stanley yesterday where they're citing these CapEx numbers.

143
00:10:28,900 --> 00:10:33,960
And they're warning, they're saying, has AI made the U.S. economy inelastic?

144
00:10:34,140 --> 00:10:41,180
Hyperscaler CapEx estimates nearly doubled to $805 billion for 2026, headed towards $1.1 trillion in 2027.

145
00:10:41,780 --> 00:10:44,660
U.S. GDP has been revised up to plus 2.3%.

146
00:10:44,660 --> 00:10:47,340
S&P earnings growth revised up plus 23%.

147
00:10:47,340 --> 00:10:52,060
33%. Their thesis is that Google, Microsoft, Meta, and Amazon aren't cutting CapEx in response to

148
00:10:52,060 --> 00:10:56,640
higher rates because AI spending is too strategic, too essential, or too well-funded to care.

149
00:10:57,240 --> 00:11:02,600
If the biggest spenders in the economy are rate insensitive, the Fed's transmission mechanism is

150
00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:07,660
weaker than at any point in history. So they're making a comment on this CapEx spending as

151
00:11:07,660 --> 00:11:14,760
juxtaposed to high rates and what the Fed may want to do. Moving forward, I think to your point,

152
00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:20,340
what people haven't really grokked is the ROI on these CapEx investments, particularly if you're,

153
00:11:20,940 --> 00:11:25,120
you own the compute and the energy infrastructure is so high, it's hard to pass up.

154
00:11:25,820 --> 00:11:30,040
Yeah. I mean, I think there's two things to think there. One, like if the Fed raises rates one or

155
00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:35,480
2% and your ROI is a hundred percent or actually like an XAI's case, like a thousand percent,

156
00:11:36,060 --> 00:11:41,080
do you even care? And the answer is of course not. The second thing is you have to remember

157
00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:45,460
all these hyperscalers were sitting on like more cash together than the U.S. Treasury had.

158
00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:50,660
So they were sitting on huge amounts of cash. And somehow we're supposed to be sad that they're

159
00:11:50,660 --> 00:11:56,120
spending it. Right. And they're spending it with like the most absurd ROI we've ever heard of.

160
00:11:56,200 --> 00:12:00,520
So like somehow some people want you to be bearish about that. Like, oh, my gosh, look at

161
00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:04,840
they're spending their cash that they had hundreds of billions sitting on cash on hand. And we should

162
00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:08,840
be sad that they're building stuff with it. And then like, you know what they're doing, right?

163
00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:16,040
Like you build compute, but then you're leasing it out to customers in like Europe and you're leasing it out to customers from Africa or the Middle East.

164
00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:20,780
So like our compute is really funding and training the whole rest of the world.

165
00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:22,960
So we're not talking about like serving 300 million.

166
00:12:23,300 --> 00:12:26,760
Our compute is serving the whole 7 billion people of the world.

167
00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:29,920
And so the scale of this is not like domestic.

168
00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:31,760
The scale of this is international.

169
00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:34,860
And the ROIs are great.

170
00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:38,480
And they're not in a lot of cases, they're not borrowing money to do it.

171
00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:54,896
So they are some of them are like obviously Oracle is you know people like that but like but like a lot of them are using it with their own cash on hand or funding it with their current revenues Right Because like if Microsoft has you know a 50 profit margin that means that they can roll 50 of

172
00:12:54,896 --> 00:13:01,336
the profits into building data centers. Right. So like it's that I do agree that that spending's

173
00:13:01,336 --> 00:13:05,236
not going to slow down and the Fed doesn't really have any control over that. And by the way,

174
00:13:05,236 --> 00:13:10,096
That's a good thing because what we're doing is we're bringing in profits from the whole world to the U.S.

175
00:13:10,436 --> 00:13:12,216
We're winning the AI race.

176
00:13:12,876 --> 00:13:19,116
And our shareholders, you know, our people in like my neighborhood in Iowa, like everybody's flourishing from it.

177
00:13:19,156 --> 00:13:21,176
Right. The stock markets are at rock guard highs.

178
00:13:21,656 --> 00:13:23,276
And it's something to celebrate.

179
00:13:23,276 --> 00:13:30,616
And you see like people like Elizabeth Warren, like I actually tweeted, like we need to tax these people and stuff like they're mad that they're doing well.

180
00:13:30,796 --> 00:13:33,396
And I'm like, how can you be mad about that?

181
00:13:33,396 --> 00:13:34,896
Like we all want to win is America.

182
00:13:34,896 --> 00:13:36,216
And that's what we're doing.

183
00:13:36,296 --> 00:13:37,336
That's what it looks like we're doing.

184
00:13:37,336 --> 00:13:38,716
And I'm super excited.

185
00:13:38,836 --> 00:13:40,816
I think it's one of the most exciting times to be investing.

186
00:13:41,656 --> 00:13:41,696
Yeah.

187
00:13:41,796 --> 00:13:47,356
And to this point, too, what are the barriers to entry to this this compute leasing market?

188
00:13:47,476 --> 00:13:54,476
Is it the constraints of the energy grid and access to to power and power infrastructure?

189
00:13:54,476 --> 00:13:58,156
Like how how how long these ROIs persist?

190
00:13:58,156 --> 00:13:59,796
Is it because of the supply?

191
00:13:59,896 --> 00:14:01,416
The infrastructure is still constrained.

192
00:14:01,416 --> 00:14:06,416
well we have a lot of natural gas in the u.s and so like in iowa what they do we have natural gas

193
00:14:06,416 --> 00:14:11,456
pipelines that run up from like the shale drillers and what in iowa what they do is they build their

194
00:14:11,456 --> 00:14:17,056
own generators onto the data centers and then they try to get like wind energy too and things like

195
00:14:17,056 --> 00:14:23,376
that but like uh generally they're building they're bringing their own power so is it a concern if we

196
00:14:23,376 --> 00:14:27,356
use more natural gas when we have plenty of it and we're exporting it to the rest of the world

197
00:14:27,356 --> 00:14:33,296
like i don't think so because it's pretty stupid to put natural gas on a natural gas tanker and

198
00:14:33,296 --> 00:14:37,896
send it to europe to power a data center over there and raise the cost of natural gas like 20 bucks

199
00:14:37,896 --> 00:14:41,776
you know what i mean like how dumb is that like it's so expensive to ship it why don't we just do

200
00:14:41,776 --> 00:14:47,416
the compute here save the 20 dollars you know a cubic whatever of natural gas like it's everything's

201
00:14:47,416 --> 00:14:53,316
more efficient about it and uh and do the compute closest to where the energy is you know so i think

202
00:14:53,316 --> 00:14:57,696
there's two things. You need land and you need, but the craziest thing is you've got places like

203
00:14:57,696 --> 00:15:02,176
California that are just full of empty deserts. Like they won't let them build data centers there.

204
00:15:02,476 --> 00:15:06,536
I don't know. So we're building them in Iowa, I guess. So Iowa farmland is a little more

205
00:15:06,536 --> 00:15:13,536
productive than California desert, unfortunately, but that's the way things are. So, but yeah, I mean,

206
00:15:14,016 --> 00:15:17,876
it's just, it's good for everybody involved and it's, it's going to be really good. I think for

207
00:15:17,876 --> 00:15:23,296
shareholders, when we start to see the ROI roll in from the data, I mean, we've hardly seen any

208
00:15:23,296 --> 00:15:27,536
these data centers come online elon musk was like one of the first ones to do it because he could

209
00:15:27,536 --> 00:15:32,416
build them so fast but like we're going to see in the next year these come online and the revenues

210
00:15:32,416 --> 00:15:37,536
come in and that's going to be really exciting for shareholders yeah that memphis build out and i was

211
00:15:37,536 --> 00:15:42,656
telling you before we hit record i was uh been in the bitcoin mining industry for for almost 10 years

212
00:15:42,656 --> 00:15:48,416
now and watching how they did colossus one by daisy chaining to gen sets and putting the the battery

213
00:15:48,416 --> 00:15:54,336
powers, the battery walls inside, he was acting like a Bitcoin miner.

214
00:15:54,376 --> 00:16:00,116
Because a Bitcoin mining, to your point, the whole name of the game is basically shortening

215
00:16:00,116 --> 00:16:04,556
the distance between the power production and the compute.

216
00:16:04,556 --> 00:16:08,696
And it seems like AI is adopting that quickly as well.

217
00:16:09,496 --> 00:16:15,076
And I mean, to that point, it looks like SpaceX is going to build another large data center

218
00:16:15,076 --> 00:16:22,436
glosses too. It looks like it may be a $17 billion outlay. Yeah. For two gigawatts. So like

219
00:16:22,436 --> 00:16:28,456
if you can lease out 300 megawatts for 45 billion, how much can you lease out eight times more

220
00:16:28,456 --> 00:16:34,416
compute for? Like if they only spend 17 billion, it sounds like at the current rate, they could

221
00:16:34,416 --> 00:16:40,856
lease that out for over a hundred billion. I'm sorry. They could lease that out for over, I was,

222
00:16:40,856 --> 00:16:45,156
I was way low on that, but they could lease that out for over 300 billion.

223
00:16:46,776 --> 00:16:53,276
Like, I mean, if you do a 10 X ROI on it, like they're getting on whatever, I mean, it's, it's a lot.

224
00:16:53,536 --> 00:16:56,096
And how's that going to be for SpaceX shareholders?

225
00:16:56,556 --> 00:16:58,796
So SpaceX is going to go public in like two weeks.

226
00:16:59,316 --> 00:17:02,376
You know, they obviously can grow their Starlink division.

227
00:17:02,656 --> 00:17:04,276
I mean, it provides so much value.

228
00:17:04,716 --> 00:17:09,256
I think Starlink could easily 10 X their revenues over the next five years.

229
00:17:09,256 --> 00:17:11,436
And then what can they bring in from compute?

230
00:17:11,596 --> 00:17:12,976
And, you know, this is really smart.

231
00:17:13,276 --> 00:17:17,656
They have to build the compute leasing business before they take it to space.

232
00:17:17,656 --> 00:17:19,696
Because like, you don't want to go to space with no customers.

233
00:17:19,696 --> 00:17:22,756
So like you build the customer base and then you take it to space.

234
00:17:23,316 --> 00:17:25,256
And it's so strategic.

235
00:17:25,636 --> 00:17:26,676
It's so smart.

236
00:17:27,196 --> 00:17:33,696
And the biggest question I have, like, I think I'm going to be pretty bullish on SpaceX when it IPOs in two weeks.

237
00:17:33,696 --> 00:17:41,696
But the other question is, what are the best plays to make money off of this, these rising compute like leasing profits?

238
00:17:42,756 --> 00:17:47,796
And is it is it like the hyperscalers like Oracle and Google and Microsoft?

239
00:17:48,136 --> 00:17:57,456
Or is it some of the smaller ones like CoreWeave, IREN and some of the Bitcoin miners that are rotating to the leasing out their compute like like Tara Wolf?

240
00:17:57,676 --> 00:18:01,276
You know, the tickers W-U-L-F and Cypher.

241
00:18:02,196 --> 00:18:03,996
So I think that's pretty exciting.

242
00:18:04,356 --> 00:18:07,736
And it's hard to know for sure who are the winners.

243
00:18:07,856 --> 00:18:10,796
Can the bigger people like Elon Musk just do it faster and better?

244
00:18:10,956 --> 00:18:15,696
Or can people that are in like Texas and they have really friendly regulations down there

245
00:18:15,696 --> 00:18:18,756
and they own a lot of the land, can they scale a lot like the fastest?

246
00:18:18,956 --> 00:18:22,516
So I think a lot of this is going to be who can scale the fastest and get it done quickly

247
00:18:22,516 --> 00:18:25,856
and have that edge to bring in the revenue first.

248
00:18:25,856 --> 00:18:31,676
And I don't know what the future holds, but I do think it's going to be good for shareholders.

249
00:18:32,516 --> 00:18:34,596
Well, I mean, that begs another question, too.

250
00:18:34,696 --> 00:18:35,896
Like, how many winners could there be?

251
00:18:35,916 --> 00:18:37,316
I could see there being a lot of winners in this.

252
00:18:37,376 --> 00:18:37,496
Yeah.

253
00:18:37,576 --> 00:18:40,156
Because of the insatiable demand for tokens.

254
00:18:40,596 --> 00:18:45,576
And it doesn't seem like to your point of, I forget which bank was saying it, but the

255
00:18:45,576 --> 00:18:48,836
gross in token usage just in the last year.

256
00:18:48,896 --> 00:18:53,016
And if you think about robotics and things that haven't even come to market at scale

257
00:18:53,016 --> 00:18:59,716
yet that are going to demand probably exponential amounts of compute compared to the nation agentic

258
00:18:59,716 --> 00:19:04,316
economy that exists now you can see a ton of winners and not only and i think that begs another

259
00:19:04,316 --> 00:19:09,896
question i mentioned i sit on the board of uh cathedra uh we're in the process of merging with

260
00:19:09,896 --> 00:19:15,816
a company called sphere 3d but we operate on a lower scale like uh 20 to 25 to 50 megawatt

261
00:19:15,816 --> 00:19:18,396
I hope you have stock-based compensation.

262
00:19:19,356 --> 00:19:19,996
Excuse me?

263
00:19:20,356 --> 00:19:22,496
I said, I hope you have stock-based compensation.

264
00:19:23,356 --> 00:19:24,576
Well, that's, I mean.

265
00:19:24,796 --> 00:19:26,736
Some stock options in case it spikes.

266
00:19:27,076 --> 00:19:32,416
Going back to, I mean, how many winners could there be?

267
00:19:32,536 --> 00:19:34,556
Could you see a scenario where there's a ton of winners?

268
00:19:34,776 --> 00:19:35,316
Oh, of course.

269
00:19:36,136 --> 00:19:37,576
I think that's where we already are.

270
00:19:38,196 --> 00:19:43,036
So we've already seen a ton of winners in the semiconductors because first they have to order the stuff, right?

271
00:19:43,036 --> 00:19:46,816
So we've seen all this, like we've seen SanDisk and Micron.

272
00:19:47,136 --> 00:19:51,796
I mean, Micron was up like 20% the other day, like so many back-to-back 5%, 10% days.

273
00:19:52,096 --> 00:19:52,696
It's crazy.

274
00:19:53,556 --> 00:19:59,356
And I think the thing is when you have like a 200% ROI and you really want this stuff

275
00:19:59,356 --> 00:20:02,816
because you want to get this data center built right now, how much pricing power does it

276
00:20:02,816 --> 00:20:03,756
give the semiconductors?

277
00:20:03,836 --> 00:20:05,116
And I think they're figuring that out.

278
00:20:05,256 --> 00:20:11,976
AMD, you know, NVIDIA, they can continue to raise their prices because these semiconductors

279
00:20:11,976 --> 00:20:13,956
that are crucial to the compute

280
00:20:13,956 --> 00:20:15,816
are generating such a high profit

281
00:20:15,816 --> 00:20:17,096
for the people that have the data center.

282
00:20:17,256 --> 00:20:21,116
So I see that that profit continues

283
00:20:21,116 --> 00:20:22,816
and they're just the first ones to see it.

284
00:20:22,896 --> 00:20:23,736
So the question is like,

285
00:20:23,956 --> 00:20:26,796
when we built out like the first ones,

286
00:20:27,076 --> 00:20:28,916
we saw NVIDIA like skyrocket.

287
00:20:29,016 --> 00:20:31,076
It went up, it's earning like 25X more

288
00:20:31,076 --> 00:20:32,196
than a couple of years ago.

289
00:20:32,616 --> 00:20:35,436
Its stock went up like thousands of percent

290
00:20:35,436 --> 00:20:36,796
because of course it's earning a lot more.

291
00:20:37,136 --> 00:20:38,916
And then we saw the memory chips go up

292
00:20:38,916 --> 00:20:41,396
and those went up thousands of percent.

293
00:20:41,976 --> 00:20:48,616
like SanDisk and Micron. And now we've seen the CPU rally. So we've seen AMD and Intel really take

294
00:20:48,616 --> 00:20:54,516
off. And so the question is, these are all people that are getting the orders to build the data

295
00:20:54,516 --> 00:20:58,836
centers and the products that they need to do them. But the question is, when the data centers come

296
00:20:58,836 --> 00:21:03,296
online, I think we're going to see the data center winners. And here's the thing, almost all the

297
00:21:03,296 --> 00:21:08,096
semiconductors are doing well. So I could see a scenario where anybody that's been investing in

298
00:21:08,096 --> 00:21:15,636
the space gets a really high ROI on their data center. So long as they're able to do things like

299
00:21:15,636 --> 00:21:23,936
house claws, like Elon Musk's Colossus 1 is. So I think it's going to be great. It's just hard to

300
00:21:23,936 --> 00:21:27,736
know right now because you haven't really seen it in the earnings. So how much do you want to

301
00:21:27,736 --> 00:21:32,716
speculate to say, I think this is going to happen versus how much do you want to be grounded in the

302
00:21:32,716 --> 00:21:36,896
earnings and wait for the results to come in first? But by that time, if it turns out to be

303
00:21:36,896 --> 00:21:41,076
true. The stock will probably already rally quite a bit. And by the way, you've seen it in Cypher

304
00:21:41,076 --> 00:21:44,836
and Terrell Wolf. They are up a lot. So there's people in on this trade already that are pushing

305
00:21:44,836 --> 00:21:49,236
these stocks. I mean, I'm pretty sure they're up like 500% in the last year. So there's other

306
00:21:49,236 --> 00:21:54,856
people that are, you know, that are moving before us, I think on this one. Yeah. And to that point,

307
00:21:54,856 --> 00:22:02,556
when do you think we'll know for sure that this is happening? You don't want to wait for those

308
00:22:02,556 --> 00:22:08,316
earning reports? Is this Q3, Q4 this year, Q1 next year? When do you think all these numbers will hit?

309
00:22:08,836 --> 00:22:13,456
Well, I think like a month ago, people in the industry started to talk about it. And one of

310
00:22:13,456 --> 00:22:18,476
the people that posted it was like David Sachs. And he's like, hey guys, like you can build a

311
00:22:18,476 --> 00:22:23,496
$50 billion data center and lease it out for $30 billion a year. And then like, we just learned

312
00:22:23,496 --> 00:22:28,256
with what Elon Musk did that his numbers were way low, like way low. You can build a $50 billion

313
00:22:28,256 --> 00:22:35,596
data center and maybe lease it out for $150 billion a year. So he was off by a magnitude of

314
00:22:35,596 --> 00:22:41,896
five. And that's what's happened, what we've seen in memory chip stocks. And the analysts are just

315
00:22:41,896 --> 00:22:44,956
like, oh, they'll earn a little bit more next quarter. And then they go and they grow their

316
00:22:44,956 --> 00:22:51,076
revenue 100% quarter over quarter and just blow away everybody. And so I think it's hard. I think

317
00:22:51,076 --> 00:22:57,276
the thing is the market's used to valuing growth. That's like 20%, 30% revenue growth year over year.

318
00:22:57,276 --> 00:23:03,816
nobody knows how to value things that could grow by 25x earnings like and nobody nobody is that

319
00:23:03,816 --> 00:23:08,496
bullish nobody's like cypher is going to be earning 25x more next year uh oracle is going

320
00:23:08,496 --> 00:23:12,656
to be earning 30x more next year so nobody really knows how to do that and so i think the market

321
00:23:12,656 --> 00:23:18,016
frequently especially in tech especially when people can make at low marginal cost so especially

322
00:23:18,016 --> 00:23:23,256
when you can make additional sales at 100 profit margins nobody really knows how to value that and

323
00:23:23,256 --> 00:23:26,596
when you think about the history of companies that have done that like google and microsoft and

324
00:23:26,596 --> 00:23:35,456
Amazon and Visa, they've all crushed the S&P 500 by enormous amounts. And so now we have this next

325
00:23:35,456 --> 00:23:40,096
stage of these companies that can sell this compute at very high profit margins is what it seems.

326
00:23:40,776 --> 00:23:45,236
And yeah, do you want to be a first mover? Do you want to wait six months to see it roll into

327
00:23:45,236 --> 00:23:50,596
the earnings and to be a little less speculative? So I think it's probably, for me, it probably makes

328
00:23:50,596 --> 00:23:56,576
some sense to do a little bit of both. Go in, but be a little cautious and be ready to double

329
00:23:56,576 --> 00:24:01,076
down, you know, when the earnings come in. What, what would slow this down? I mean,

330
00:24:01,076 --> 00:24:06,756
we've seen headlines in the last week, Uber, um, has run through their, their compute budget

331
00:24:06,756 --> 00:24:11,796
for the year. They ran through it, I believe mid April, you have many other companies saying, Hey,

332
00:24:11,796 --> 00:24:20,376
the, um, the use of these models isn't helping us add, add bottom line revenue, uh, to, to the

333
00:24:20,376 --> 00:24:25,976
business is what if, like, what could slow this down? Is it the inability for companies to actually

334
00:24:25,976 --> 00:24:30,416
integrate these models in a way that makes them more productive, more efficient, most importantly,

335
00:24:30,496 --> 00:24:36,416
more profitable? What could pop a hole in this, this gross story right now?

336
00:24:37,176 --> 00:24:41,776
So I think the interesting thing is anybody buying these tokens in the first place has probably

337
00:24:41,776 --> 00:24:45,476
already really done the math on it because you'd be pretty stupid to just buy tons of them and make

338
00:24:45,476 --> 00:24:50,836
it more expensive than human labor. Okay. So like, imagine this, you're sitting in a data call center

339
00:24:50,836 --> 00:24:57,036
And your job is literally just to answer the phone and take customer service calls.

340
00:24:57,556 --> 00:25:00,016
So they're paying everybody $25 an hour.

341
00:25:00,256 --> 00:25:02,856
You have thousands of employees sitting in this call center.

342
00:25:03,936 --> 00:25:10,416
You could have a chatbot that's like, oh, okay, we've seen that you got a fee on this

343
00:25:10,416 --> 00:25:13,096
credit card or this payment was fraudulent.

344
00:25:13,316 --> 00:25:15,856
We're going to go ahead and reverse it and send you a new card.

345
00:25:16,096 --> 00:25:20,576
You don't actually need a human to do most of this, probably 90% of this stuff.

346
00:25:20,836 --> 00:25:34,352
So almost every customer service call you take today that basically done by a token That like a tokenized chat box So like with your credit cards with your banks pretty much all that they buying tokens to

347
00:25:34,352 --> 00:25:39,952
fund what they're doing, to fund these agentic AI agents that are carrying out tasks that humans

348
00:25:39,952 --> 00:25:46,612
used to do. So like, first of all, I don't think that they're doing that because the ROI is bad.

349
00:25:46,752 --> 00:25:50,832
And then the second thing is in software development and like Uber and Salesforce,

350
00:25:50,832 --> 00:25:56,392
they're buying huge amounts of tokens too, because they can write 10 times the amount of code for one

351
00:25:56,392 --> 00:26:02,072
tenth the cost. And so they're doing it because the ROI is really good on it. And they're the

352
00:26:02,072 --> 00:26:05,832
first mover. So you have to remember when like somebody in New York city or Silicon Valley is

353
00:26:05,832 --> 00:26:09,932
doing this, the rest of the country and the rest of the world isn't even close to being where they

354
00:26:09,932 --> 00:26:15,772
are and adopting it. So like you see like the first 1% moving, you don't see the other 99% yet.

355
00:26:16,132 --> 00:26:20,752
And that's why the token demand is like projected to just explode. Like when I'm sitting here in

356
00:26:20,752 --> 00:26:26,172
Iowa. I don't know anybody that uses them. But I talked to my friends that I went to Northwestern

357
00:26:26,172 --> 00:26:31,632
and University of Oxford with, and they work for some of the tech companies and stuff. And they're

358
00:26:31,632 --> 00:26:36,292
all like, yeah, we use this all the time every day. And so I think we've seen the early adopters

359
00:26:36,292 --> 00:26:42,432
move, but we haven't seen the rest of the 99% of the world. And the rest of the world and the rest

360
00:26:42,432 --> 00:26:47,612
of the people in Iowa and everything, they're going to be buying those tokens from these companies.

361
00:26:47,612 --> 00:26:49,912
and the tokens are going to be made in the United States.

362
00:26:49,912 --> 00:26:51,112
They're not going to be made in Europe

363
00:26:51,112 --> 00:26:53,252
where natural gas is 50 times higher.

364
00:26:53,432 --> 00:26:54,652
They're not going to be made in Africa.

365
00:26:54,812 --> 00:26:55,832
They're not going to be made in China.

366
00:26:56,112 --> 00:26:59,512
So like, we really are the answer to the whole world here.

367
00:27:00,152 --> 00:27:03,772
And you cannot, like, do you remember like Google,

368
00:27:03,952 --> 00:27:05,552
like $100 billion market cap?

369
00:27:05,592 --> 00:27:07,332
And people are like, oh, it's so big.

370
00:27:07,372 --> 00:27:08,272
It can't grow anymore.

371
00:27:08,492 --> 00:27:09,012
You know what I mean?

372
00:27:09,132 --> 00:27:11,592
And they just forget that Google can go

373
00:27:11,592 --> 00:27:12,852
and sell their AdWords,

374
00:27:12,972 --> 00:27:15,452
the entire rest of the world, 100% profit margins.

375
00:27:15,452 --> 00:27:20,892
Like nobody can even fathom that the demand will actually be 50 times higher at 100% profit margin.

376
00:27:21,012 --> 00:27:21,872
Same thing with Microsoft.

377
00:27:22,372 --> 00:27:24,752
Like, and so they just underestimate it.

378
00:27:24,812 --> 00:27:26,272
And then the stock goes up, what?

379
00:27:27,492 --> 00:27:28,612
10,000%?

380
00:27:28,952 --> 00:27:32,392
Like, so I think we're probably in the same scenario here.

381
00:27:33,152 --> 00:27:42,292
I just think it's like, you know, I think it's just the biggest threat would probably be that Anthropic tries to build their own data centers.

382
00:27:42,292 --> 00:27:48,112
But I still think that they're so far behind the ball and the demand is so big that they can't possibly do that.

383
00:27:48,352 --> 00:27:50,132
And they don't even have the capital to do it.

384
00:27:50,312 --> 00:27:51,412
So I'm not sure.

385
00:27:51,912 --> 00:27:54,592
I'm not sure what could deflate this.

386
00:27:54,832 --> 00:27:56,912
But right now, I'm not thinking not much.

387
00:27:57,452 --> 00:28:00,112
I'm thinking that there's not much that could deflate this at the moment.

388
00:28:00,852 --> 00:28:03,392
I mean, there's political opposition against it.

389
00:28:03,472 --> 00:28:04,832
But isn't that even better?

390
00:28:05,572 --> 00:28:10,552
Like if the rest of the world doesn't want to build them because there's political opposition and the red states will.

391
00:28:10,552 --> 00:28:15,352
you know like isn't that better that we have like the place where we can break the red type and put

392
00:28:15,352 --> 00:28:19,232
them up faster than anybody else anywhere in the world so like that that just gives us a bigger

393
00:28:19,232 --> 00:28:25,992
moat and it makes our it makes investing in them safer yeah i mean two points to add there i think

394
00:28:25,992 --> 00:28:30,212
when it comes to implementation of these ai workflows or agentic

395
00:28:30,212 --> 00:28:36,192
workflows it really comes down to being able to implement i think jack dorsey

396
00:28:36,192 --> 00:28:43,512
in Blocker, a great example. I've watched their implementation of AI into their company over the

397
00:28:43,512 --> 00:28:47,952
last year, and I think they're doing it the right way. And I think Jack's interview with the Sequoia

398
00:28:47,952 --> 00:28:51,892
Partners a couple of months ago really highlighted how they're viewing it. And I think the approach

399
00:28:51,892 --> 00:28:56,412
to how you actually implement these AI systems is very important. There's going to be a ton of

400
00:28:56,412 --> 00:29:03,612
companies who don't think strategically about those implementation details that mess it up,

401
00:29:03,612 --> 00:29:05,152
and they wind up wasting a bunch of money.

402
00:29:05,252 --> 00:29:07,612
And then on the other hand, like I think for small teams,

403
00:29:07,672 --> 00:29:10,452
like my humble media company that we're running here,

404
00:29:10,452 --> 00:29:13,532
we've been running an open claw agent since January.

405
00:29:13,832 --> 00:29:14,412
No way.

406
00:29:14,772 --> 00:29:20,372
It has expanded our ability to do what we do here

407
00:29:20,372 --> 00:29:21,472
by orders of magnitude.

408
00:29:21,992 --> 00:29:23,632
And I think for small teams,

409
00:29:23,632 --> 00:29:25,912
it's going to be particularly powerful.

410
00:29:26,152 --> 00:29:27,472
And then when you think about the profit margins

411
00:29:27,472 --> 00:29:31,352
that can be gained by small teams that implement this from zero,

412
00:29:31,352 --> 00:29:38,712
the profitability of the smaller team is going to way exceed the larger companies that have a ton

413
00:29:38,712 --> 00:29:44,192
of bloat. And I think that's going to be actually an interesting theme to watch moving forward is

414
00:29:44,192 --> 00:29:51,292
the incumbent behemoths that were using headcount as a KPI back in the easy money days of the 2010s

415
00:29:51,292 --> 00:30:00,072
and early 2020s, trying to unwind the mistake of that KPI. Yeah. I mean, how amazing is it that

416
00:30:00,072 --> 00:30:04,772
like Elon Musk went in and like cut 80% to X and it worked just the same.

417
00:30:05,112 --> 00:30:05,932
You know what I mean?

418
00:30:06,292 --> 00:30:07,592
And I do think there's a thing of like,

419
00:30:07,812 --> 00:30:11,112
when people throw crazy money out at things,

420
00:30:11,232 --> 00:30:13,832
there's like kind of infamous for getting ripped off.

421
00:30:14,052 --> 00:30:17,452
And so what companies are run so well that they can build them the leanest.

422
00:30:17,752 --> 00:30:21,292
And I think they'll have a huge competitive advantage, right?

423
00:30:21,292 --> 00:30:22,792
To build them the fastest and the leanest.

424
00:30:23,672 --> 00:30:25,452
So you probably, honestly,

425
00:30:25,552 --> 00:30:28,372
it sounds like maybe you know more about some of these like data center

426
00:30:28,372 --> 00:30:33,172
place and it's amazing that you're in this space on the board of a company so uh so you're gonna

427
00:30:33,172 --> 00:30:37,252
know better than anybody but it sounds like you don't want to scale back your clawed bot and it

428
00:30:37,252 --> 00:30:42,772
also sound or your open claw it sounds like you also like so you you know you would maybe use more

429
00:30:42,772 --> 00:30:47,572
but also i would say you're a first mover because you're like a high-tech guy so like how soon until

430
00:30:47,572 --> 00:30:52,132
everybody else figures out what you're doing and how great it is yeah and i mean that's the thing

431
00:30:52,132 --> 00:30:58,852
Right now, the other thing you have to consider, too, is these models are progressing so quickly.

432
00:30:59,232 --> 00:31:02,312
So you'll build something one week, and then a new model will be released.

433
00:31:02,412 --> 00:31:07,492
It's like, okay, I have to take this out, put this in, and rejigger things a certain way.

434
00:31:07,972 --> 00:31:11,312
And it's a lot of learning on the go.

435
00:31:11,512 --> 00:31:15,492
And so to your point about the early movers, and I'm not trying to blow smoke up my own ass,

436
00:31:15,492 --> 00:31:17,452
but it is an involved process.

437
00:31:17,452 --> 00:31:23,632
And if you're not staying up to date with the latest developments in the space, it's going to be hard to keep up.

438
00:31:23,652 --> 00:31:33,872
But there will be a point, I think, where the model, the return on the model, sort of the model progression sort of plateaus.

439
00:31:33,872 --> 00:31:39,772
maybe doesn't plateau, but it becomes more stable of a rise in efficiency gains and,

440
00:31:39,772 --> 00:31:47,532
yeah, I guess the IQ of the models themselves that you'll be able to create out-of-the-box

441
00:31:47,532 --> 00:31:48,092
solutions.

442
00:31:48,452 --> 00:31:52,292
Like setting up an open claw in January was extremely hard.

443
00:31:52,372 --> 00:31:53,172
It's easier today.

444
00:31:53,492 --> 00:31:59,972
I imagine a year from now, there will be a point and click out-of-the-box sort of agentic

445
00:31:59,972 --> 00:32:08,532
flows for companies that are very easy to set up. Yeah. I mean, and if demand grows by 24X

446
00:32:08,532 --> 00:32:15,772
or 80X, we don't have anywhere near amount of compute. Even what we're building today,

447
00:32:15,772 --> 00:32:21,612
it's nowhere close. So it honestly seems like it could be like an eight or 10 year build out to

448
00:32:21,612 --> 00:32:26,652
catch up, which means we'd be in the very early, I mean, like in the first like, you know, year or

449
00:32:26,652 --> 00:32:32,632
two of a decade long build out. So it could be one of the longest CapEx cycles that's ever been

450
00:32:32,632 --> 00:32:36,692
in the history of the world. I mean, it can really only be compared to when they needed to build

451
00:32:36,692 --> 00:32:40,772
railroads across the whole world because they realized that was better than taking stuff on a

452
00:32:40,772 --> 00:32:46,772
donkey. Yeah, well, I think many people are comparing it to the internet and the broadband

453
00:32:46,772 --> 00:32:52,932
build out too. And to your earlier comments about people worrying about this being a bubble and it

454
00:32:52,932 --> 00:32:58,232
being too hard to believe and they're pointing at the dot-com bubble i think that's one thing that

455
00:32:58,232 --> 00:33:02,872
many people are missing is that the demand for tokens is there it's like the the dot-com bubble

456
00:33:02,872 --> 00:33:09,092
the infrastructure was built out and we didn't have the means to really lean into the digital

457
00:33:09,092 --> 00:33:15,132
economy that exists today in the 90s and it didn't you weren't able to monetize websites the way you

458
00:33:15,132 --> 00:33:19,332
are today there's a ton of sort of software development kit infrastructure and payments

459
00:33:19,332 --> 00:33:25,052
infrastructure and logistics infrastructure that needed to be built out and Amazon and Google and

460
00:33:25,052 --> 00:33:30,512
many others did that in the late 90s, early 2000s. And then that caught up. But I think with AI,

461
00:33:30,752 --> 00:33:35,992
it's different because the models, they work. If you know how to use them, they work well for you

462
00:33:35,992 --> 00:33:42,992
and you want to use them more, but the tokens simply aren't there yet. The ability to ping the

463
00:33:42,992 --> 00:33:50,652
models as much as you want isn't there. Whereas in the broadband era, the fiber was there. It was

464
00:33:50,652 --> 00:33:56,612
laid, but the supply of people bringing businesses that actually worked on the internet wasn't there.

465
00:33:57,312 --> 00:34:00,432
Yeah. I mean, and I think the thing is, it's like, it's kind of like the railroad,

466
00:34:00,592 --> 00:34:05,432
like Wells Fargo started as a carriage delivery, like a wagon delivery service.

467
00:34:05,572 --> 00:34:09,652
And so like they'd go down the Oregon trail from whenever in New York, all the way down to Oregon.

468
00:34:09,652 --> 00:34:13,972
And it's like the railroad basically put that out of business overnight and there became a bank.

469
00:34:14,072 --> 00:34:23,412
But it's like, if you can do something for one one thousandth the cost, you know, and software has always been limited by extremely expensive developers sitting in seats.

470
00:34:23,572 --> 00:34:30,192
If you can like lower things by one one thousandth of a cost, do you really ever go back to the way things were?

471
00:34:30,332 --> 00:34:32,452
Is there really any slowing down the adoption?

472
00:34:32,692 --> 00:34:35,452
Because its savings are so big, it only accelerates.

473
00:34:35,452 --> 00:34:39,412
And I think that's probably where we sit today.

474
00:34:39,652 --> 00:34:54,152
Yeah. Outside of compute infrastructure specifically, again, bringing it back to energy, because that's one thing I've identified as maybe the biggest constraint right now is energy infrastructure.

475
00:34:54,152 --> 00:35:04,252
And I talked about natural gas pipelines, but I think we really need to expand generation and grid interconnectivity by orders of magnitude in the next decade as well.

476
00:35:04,312 --> 00:35:07,852
And I think that's another part of the market that provides an incredible opportunity.

477
00:35:07,852 --> 00:35:14,172
and it's just well the data centers aren't so i think if the data centers are bringing their own

478
00:35:14,172 --> 00:35:22,772
energy and they barely connect to the grid then one is that true and two and two like there's

479
00:35:22,772 --> 00:35:27,992
people like bloom energy making like um like obviously they make electric generators right

480
00:35:27,992 --> 00:35:33,952
so that you can like bring your own power to uh to a data center but like the question to that is

481
00:35:33,952 --> 00:35:37,952
is that like, that's really expensive to build each data center.

482
00:35:38,152 --> 00:35:40,172
So, or to build each generator, I mean.

483
00:35:40,412 --> 00:35:43,652
So the question is, like, that's not low marginal cost, right?

484
00:35:43,672 --> 00:35:46,372
Like you can make an additional memory chip for not a lot of costs,

485
00:35:46,372 --> 00:35:49,192
but it's really expensive to build a big generator.

486
00:35:49,352 --> 00:35:53,012
So the question is, is the earnings growth going to be the highest there?

487
00:35:54,272 --> 00:35:58,252
And like producing electricity is always going to have a high marginal cost

488
00:35:58,252 --> 00:36:00,272
because it costs a lot to make, you know,

489
00:36:00,312 --> 00:36:03,152
whether it's a natural gas or wind turbines or solar,

490
00:36:03,152 --> 00:36:07,712
it actually costs something and each additional unit you make is not free. It really has a cost

491
00:36:07,712 --> 00:36:12,332
associated with it. So I don't think the ROI is going to be the highest in that sector for that

492
00:36:12,332 --> 00:36:16,992
reason. Doesn't mean it won't be good. Doesn't mean it won't be good. I think that you can make

493
00:36:16,992 --> 00:36:22,412
more money in semiconductors or something, in my opinion. I think the other thing that I think has

494
00:36:22,412 --> 00:36:28,792
really been overlooked is software in this. And I know the software, these are some of the people

495
00:36:28,792 --> 00:36:34,052
buying the tokens. And so there's some increased costs there because they maybe necessarily haven't

496
00:36:34,052 --> 00:36:38,952
scaled back their workforce. So they've kept all the high costs, but they've also spent all the

497
00:36:38,952 --> 00:36:45,252
money on the tokens. So they were like kind of double slamming themselves. But software has

498
00:36:45,252 --> 00:36:50,852
always been limited by the number of subscribers sitting in a seat, right? So manpower. Manpower

499
00:36:50,852 --> 00:36:57,472
is expensive. So here's the thing. You open your open call and it's doing advertising work for you

500
00:36:57,472 --> 00:37:01,532
and it's working in Adobe, and maybe you have one doing sales outreach for you, and it's working in

501
00:37:01,532 --> 00:37:08,492
Salesforce. Software is no longer limited by the number of people you have. So now you could have

502
00:37:08,492 --> 00:37:12,452
one person and they could have 20 subscriptions, right? Like you could have the same thing,

503
00:37:12,572 --> 00:37:19,232
drawing CAD drawings and Autodesk, right? And so now the question is, does demand get totally

504
00:37:19,232 --> 00:37:24,932
unleashed? It was always limited by expensive manpower. And now software demand is totally

505
00:37:24,932 --> 00:37:31,812
unleashed because AI agents need the tools to get the work done. And so I think that could be

506
00:37:31,812 --> 00:37:38,232
really interesting in that the demand is actually going to be higher. Additional sales come at 100%

507
00:37:38,232 --> 00:37:44,752
profit margins. And you have 5X demand or something as the tools just become... Because

508
00:37:44,752 --> 00:37:51,872
the most expensive thing to Adobe was never a subscription cost of 300 bucks a year or 1,000.

509
00:37:51,872 --> 00:37:54,632
It was the person that was, you were paying to do the work in it.

510
00:37:54,752 --> 00:37:55,192
You know what I mean?

511
00:37:55,192 --> 00:37:56,372
They might cost a hundred thousand.

512
00:37:56,712 --> 00:38:02,352
So if you're lowering the cost to use these by a magnitude of a hundred, doesn't demand

513
00:38:02,352 --> 00:38:02,872
go up?

514
00:38:03,052 --> 00:38:07,632
And because that additional sales come at high profit margins, doesn't earnings like explode?

515
00:38:07,892 --> 00:38:23,068
And so I bullish on software Like I hold it in AOTG You know I topped like some of the top holdings or you know besides semiconductors and besides some of this AI infrastructure are names like AppLovin and Microsoft and Toast

516
00:38:23,248 --> 00:38:25,728
And so I think it could really be unleashed.

517
00:38:25,968 --> 00:38:29,108
And I think that the potential there should not be understated.

518
00:38:29,408 --> 00:38:34,568
You know, and there's downside, of course, that some of them are losers and always keep that in mind when you invest.

519
00:38:34,568 --> 00:38:50,108
But when everybody focuses on the downside and nobody focuses on the upside and the PE ratios are like 15 and 20, and they're really reasonably valued with very robust earnings growth still today.

520
00:38:50,628 --> 00:38:53,148
I think that sets up to some of the best trades.

521
00:38:53,448 --> 00:38:55,228
And you saw that a year ago with memory.

522
00:38:55,508 --> 00:38:56,788
Everybody was bearish on it.

523
00:38:57,208 --> 00:38:59,628
And the PE ratios were really low and the growth was good.

524
00:38:59,628 --> 00:39:08,548
And I think when you have those things and you combine those all together, those are the makings of the best trades.

525
00:39:09,108 --> 00:39:10,988
And so we'll see what the future holds.

526
00:39:11,288 --> 00:39:13,608
Anything can happen, but I am excited for it.

527
00:39:14,388 --> 00:39:21,948
Yeah, I think we saw an example of this a couple of weeks ago when Figma announced their Q1 earnings, and they surprised massively to the upside.

528
00:39:21,948 --> 00:39:30,888
I think many people were thinking Figma UI designer tool was going to get blown out by people just building it themselves.

529
00:39:30,888 --> 00:39:33,108
But they actually implemented some AI functionality.

530
00:39:33,628 --> 00:39:43,088
And I think to your point, what they experienced is people actually using them more because they have these tools to go in there and leverage their software tools.

531
00:39:43,788 --> 00:39:48,108
Yeah, well, here's the most interesting thing is a lot of these companies have like a 5-10% profit margin.

532
00:39:48,628 --> 00:39:52,348
So imagine you're a company like Spotify, and you can look at the earnings today,

533
00:39:52,448 --> 00:39:54,828
and their year-over-year operating expenses are falling.

534
00:39:55,448 --> 00:39:57,888
Meanwhile, they're still growing their revenues at 10%.

535
00:39:57,888 --> 00:40:04,128
So what that tells me is that their profit margin will go from 5% to all the additional

536
00:40:04,128 --> 00:40:06,988
10% sales go straight to profit.

537
00:40:07,148 --> 00:40:09,208
So now their profit margin will be 15%.

538
00:40:09,208 --> 00:40:13,908
Well, that's 200% year-over-year gap earnings per share growth for a company that had a low

539
00:40:13,908 --> 00:40:14,568
PE ratio.

540
00:40:14,568 --> 00:40:17,808
So I mean, usually when they have low PE ratios, they shouldn't get any lower.

541
00:40:17,808 --> 00:40:20,528
You know, like usually they should keep up with earnings growth.

542
00:40:21,228 --> 00:40:25,888
And so like making 200% in a year is a big deal, like in any stock, right?

543
00:40:25,908 --> 00:40:26,328
You know that.

544
00:40:26,988 --> 00:40:32,108
And so how many companies today like AppLovin and Robinhood are implementing?

545
00:40:32,268 --> 00:40:34,488
I mean, Robinhood's financial services, but what are they really?

546
00:40:34,628 --> 00:40:38,408
Like they're really proprietary software to implement brokerage services.

547
00:40:38,408 --> 00:40:42,788
So like how many of these companies are going to keep their expenses constant and grow their

548
00:40:42,788 --> 00:40:44,808
revenues, not just 10%, but maybe 50%.

549
00:40:44,808 --> 00:40:51,148
50%. And like AppLovin is obviously growing at like 60%. And that's really, you know,

550
00:40:51,208 --> 00:40:55,288
that really the upside of that potential, I don't think can be overstated.

551
00:40:56,288 --> 00:41:00,528
Yeah. So you're not a doomer at this. You don't think AI leads to massive

552
00:41:00,528 --> 00:41:07,288
job disruption that completely throws the economy into a tizzy and destroys the demand for tokens

553
00:41:07,288 --> 00:41:12,848
that existed in the first place? Do you think this is going to be an accelerant for human

554
00:41:12,848 --> 00:41:17,528
productivity and creativity. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it brings in a lot of wealth. Like I just look at

555
00:41:17,528 --> 00:41:22,948
what it's doing in Iowa and every, it seems like people are doing better than ever. And, uh, so

556
00:41:22,948 --> 00:41:28,728
I mean, I think in the 1900, they were building the Panama canal and they built, they came out

557
00:41:28,728 --> 00:41:32,048
with a steam shovel and there was actually a political debate at the time with like the

558
00:41:32,048 --> 00:41:37,828
presidents and stuff. Should we bring this steam shovel to Panama canal because a bunch of people

559
00:41:37,828 --> 00:41:41,788
lose their jobs or should we just keep paying all these people to die of malaria in Panama?

560
00:41:41,788 --> 00:41:45,308
and keep doing it because we want them to be employed.

561
00:41:45,948 --> 00:41:48,048
And is that not crazy that they were considering

562
00:41:48,048 --> 00:41:50,368
digging the Panama City Canal with a shovel

563
00:41:50,368 --> 00:41:51,868
because they didn't want to fire people?

564
00:41:52,208 --> 00:41:53,408
They didn't want to reduce the workforce

565
00:41:53,408 --> 00:41:55,428
and have a clause like a political firestorm.

566
00:41:55,868 --> 00:41:57,108
And then they did do the steam shovel.

567
00:41:57,208 --> 00:41:57,608
And guess what?

568
00:41:57,688 --> 00:41:59,148
Everybody went and got better jobs

569
00:41:59,148 --> 00:42:01,108
and provided more value to the economy.

570
00:42:01,688 --> 00:42:04,308
And so I think that's where we are today.

571
00:42:04,548 --> 00:42:06,968
Somebody that's just doing payroll right now or something,

572
00:42:06,968 --> 00:42:08,188
or they're doing accounts payable,

573
00:42:08,368 --> 00:42:09,688
and it can really be automated.

574
00:42:09,688 --> 00:42:15,568
they can go get a better job doing something else and they'll add more to the GDP than being able to

575
00:42:15,568 --> 00:42:20,828
automate that task. So like when you add more to the GDP, you increase the output, like the country

576
00:42:20,828 --> 00:42:25,268
gets wealthier and as a whole, everybody gets wealthier together. So I'm really bullish on it.

577
00:42:25,328 --> 00:42:28,608
I'm really bullish because nobody's just going to go and sit at their house. They're going to go and

578
00:42:28,608 --> 00:42:32,568
do something like that. Like you and I would go make a company. You know what I mean? Like, so

579
00:42:32,568 --> 00:42:36,948
like, like people go do that. They're not just going to sit around in general, I think the

580
00:42:36,948 --> 00:42:40,948
majority of people and then they'll provide value and it'll, you'll see a GDP explosion,

581
00:42:40,948 --> 00:42:44,208
I think. And you'll see some of the best growth maybe that's ever been seen.

582
00:42:45,288 --> 00:42:51,168
Yeah. Is there anything, um, on this AI topic, uh, that we haven't covered yet? That's top of

583
00:42:51,168 --> 00:42:56,128
mind that you think the audience should be aware of. We've been, we've been whacking all the moles

584
00:42:56,128 --> 00:43:00,248
on this one. So I'm trying to think, but you got me in the corner now and trying to make sure I

585
00:43:00,248 --> 00:43:07,948
don't leave anything out. Um, yeah. Um, you can't think of anything, man.

586
00:43:08,588 --> 00:43:13,988
Well, on that note, moving to fertilizer, since you, since you're close to the, uh,

587
00:43:14,488 --> 00:43:18,608
the fertilizer, fertilizer industry as well. I think there's been a lot of headlines about

588
00:43:18,608 --> 00:43:24,108
obviously the straighter from use, uh, messing up the supply chain for, for sulfur and helium,

589
00:43:24,108 --> 00:43:28,488
which are key inputs to, to fertilizer. What are you seeing on, on that end?

590
00:43:28,488 --> 00:43:49,328
Yeah, it's not great. So now we're taking a little worse of a step. But I think there's three things to keep in mind. I won't hit on helium. So you've got nitrogen. The way you make nitrogen is you use a ton of natural gas to superheat the air and cause a catalyst and you take the nitrogen out of the air.

591
00:43:49,328 --> 00:43:58,228
So it's like naturally occurring, but you take nitrogen out of the air, the atmosphere is 70% nitrogen, and then you turn it into like ammonia or UAN.

592
00:43:58,748 --> 00:44:01,828
And that's what you use to put on corn and things like that.

593
00:44:02,168 --> 00:44:09,248
So 30% of the natural gas flows out of Qatar and it goes to places like India and China and Europe.

594
00:44:09,568 --> 00:44:11,188
And so they can't get their natural gas.

595
00:44:11,708 --> 00:44:14,328
So all of their nitrogen plants shut down.

596
00:44:14,688 --> 00:44:17,968
So they're not like making very much nitrogen over there.

597
00:44:17,968 --> 00:44:22,008
uh so that's a big problem because they made like the majority of the world's supply

598
00:44:22,008 --> 00:44:26,868
so the u.s actually is a net importer we have a lot of plants but we actually bring in more than

599
00:44:26,868 --> 00:44:32,788
we export so now the u.s producers are sitting there making very like they have uh you know

600
00:44:32,788 --> 00:44:36,128
they're obviously using buying natural gas at like three bucks and they're making it

601
00:44:36,128 --> 00:44:40,248
and everybody else is like you know getting slammed on it in the rest of the world so

602
00:44:40,248 --> 00:44:45,768
the u.s people like cf industries and uan stock they're all doing really really well like great

603
00:44:45,768 --> 00:44:50,568
years, everything, but it, there, but it's because there's such a tightness and they can export it to

604
00:44:50,568 --> 00:44:54,968
the rest of the world that raises the prices here in the U S that's bad for the farmer because they

605
00:44:54,968 --> 00:44:59,928
have higher input costs. So I think that like, that's, that's number one, nitrogen prices are

606
00:44:59,928 --> 00:45:03,768
up like a hundred percent. So that's tough. Uh, that's tough. And corn's not up a hundred percent.

607
00:45:03,768 --> 00:45:09,288
So that's tough for the farmer. The second thing is that sulfur. So sulfur, you actually put on

608
00:45:09,288 --> 00:45:14,328
corn, like in that price is going up, of course. So, uh, so that's bad. But the second thing is

609
00:45:14,328 --> 00:45:20,608
you like try catalyze sulfur into sulfuric acid, and then you use sulfuric acid to melt phosphate

610
00:45:20,608 --> 00:45:26,308
ore. So when you're mining phosphate, you melt the ore and that makes a phosphoric acid. Well,

611
00:45:26,348 --> 00:45:34,408
phosphoric acid is the base of like phosphate fertilizers. And so now the sulfur prices are so

612
00:45:34,408 --> 00:45:40,688
high that they can't make phosphate profitably. So they're shutting down. Like Mosaic is a public

613
00:45:40,688 --> 00:45:44,368
glycic company, they're shutting down production in their phosphate plants because they can't get

614
00:45:44,368 --> 00:45:50,148
enough sulfuric acid. And so phosphate prices are now going through the roof and sulfur prices,

615
00:45:50,328 --> 00:45:54,708
which is another key ingredient. And so you've got sulfur, phosphate, and nitrogen that are all

616
00:45:54,708 --> 00:46:00,468
spiking really high in prices. At the same time, you don't see corn really necessarily reflecting

617
00:46:00,468 --> 00:46:05,528
that rally yet. So it's creating really tough farm economics. And what's really interesting for us

618
00:46:05,528 --> 00:46:10,948
is that our customers, so what we do at Twin State Inc., you know, has started my grandfather,

619
00:46:11,528 --> 00:46:18,048
is we buy nitrogen, we buy phosphate, and we buy potash and sulfur and zinc from people that make

620
00:46:18,048 --> 00:46:23,068
it. And we turn it into, like when you fertilize your yard, you get a blended fertilizer, right?

621
00:46:23,468 --> 00:46:27,848
So you get something that has all five of those ingredients and more, and then you put it on your

622
00:46:27,848 --> 00:46:31,888
yard. Well, we're the people that blend it all together. So we have to pay the higher in-book

623
00:46:31,888 --> 00:46:36,588
costs also. It's not like we're like, oh my gosh, prices are higher. We're making more. It's exactly

624
00:46:36,588 --> 00:46:41,608
the opposite. Prices are higher and our quantity being sold is dropping because people are having

625
00:46:41,608 --> 00:46:46,868
to cut back because the prices are so expensive. So I mean, it's tough there. It's hard on the

626
00:46:46,868 --> 00:46:52,348
farmer. What we really need to see is a rally in corn. And then the economics will make sense again.

627
00:46:52,348 --> 00:46:59,308
And I think that's going to happen. It just takes time to have the commodities market react. These

628
00:46:59,308 --> 00:47:03,528
things are cyclical, but sometimes it takes a year to see reactions as you draw down stockpiles,

629
00:47:03,868 --> 00:47:09,468
things like that. So we'll see what happens. But not the best year for ag, I'd say.

630
00:47:10,428 --> 00:47:13,868
Have you experienced an environment like this before as your family?

631
00:47:16,328 --> 00:47:22,908
Not me. The farm crisis in the 80s was bad, and we're not near that. But that's when a lot of

632
00:47:22,908 --> 00:47:26,808
people are going bankrupt. But I would say that usually all of our customers use John Deere

633
00:47:26,808 --> 00:47:31,628
financing, which is, you know, kind of thought of as being very easy to get, uh, because John

634
00:47:31,628 --> 00:47:34,568
Deere will like lend, uh, you know, they'll, they'll lend and they'll finance. They actually

635
00:47:34,568 --> 00:47:37,788
make more money financing, I think from John Deere than they do from their tractors. Nobody

636
00:47:37,788 --> 00:47:44,388
seems to know that. But, uh, um, but, uh, this year John Deere is saying like, oh, you guys are

637
00:47:44,388 --> 00:47:48,608
so stretched. We won't lend to you. So they're going to like non-traditional lenders and much,

638
00:47:48,688 --> 00:47:55,048
much higher interest rates. So that's like, I mean, we might be seeing 40% of our, our customers

639
00:47:55,048 --> 00:47:59,728
that we sell to doing that. So that's not good to see. That means that people are distressed

640
00:47:59,728 --> 00:48:04,868
and the assets are so... The liabilities are becoming more than the assets. So traditional

641
00:48:04,868 --> 00:48:10,748
lenders are no longer lending to them. And that's usually what you see before you see bankruptcies,

642
00:48:10,788 --> 00:48:14,808
because after that, then obviously they can't pay the interest rate and they go bankrupt.

643
00:48:14,808 --> 00:48:20,068
So I hope we don't get there. I hope we see corn go up and the incomes go up and then everybody

644
00:48:20,068 --> 00:48:26,468
gets out of a tough spot. But you could see makings of a crisis here that could be similar.

645
00:48:27,348 --> 00:48:34,608
Yeah. Very interesting times. We got the incredible optimism and growth potential with AI and then

646
00:48:34,608 --> 00:48:42,708
some supply chain disruptions, messing up the food supply. But I think we'll learn anything

647
00:48:42,708 --> 00:48:50,428
from 2020, 2021 specifically is the supply chain disruptions can be fixed in time.

648
00:48:50,688 --> 00:48:56,828
Yeah. And part of the problem is that land prices just had gotten so high, right? So people kept

649
00:48:56,828 --> 00:49:00,948
buying higher and higher land and you need a higher profit just to cover the cost of the land.

650
00:49:00,948 --> 00:49:05,988
And then they rent it out for more. And so some of it is just that the asset prices had been so

651
00:49:05,988 --> 00:49:10,108
high, kind of like how you could see like, you know, home prices getting too high in an area.

652
00:49:10,108 --> 00:49:12,608
And then they kind of stall out for a while and fall.

653
00:49:12,808 --> 00:49:19,008
And, you know, I think there's some of that going on, too, which is that this was like farming had been so safe.

654
00:49:19,388 --> 00:49:26,628
The land had been such a good investment that it was so reliable that just more momentum money just kept pouring into it and overpriced the land.

655
00:49:26,628 --> 00:49:35,848
And that exacerbated, you know, a tough time because rents are high and, you know, interest that you're paying on overpriced land is high and all that stuff.

656
00:49:36,828 --> 00:49:36,928
Yeah.

657
00:49:36,928 --> 00:49:41,168
Yeah. Maybe the agents can help us figure out a solution to these problems.

658
00:49:42,348 --> 00:49:45,188
That's good. I hadn't thought about that one yet.

659
00:49:45,568 --> 00:49:54,308
Awesome. Well, John, again, thank you for hopping on a short notice. This was a fascinating, highly dense conversation.

660
00:49:54,308 --> 00:50:09,968
And I have a lot of people on here who are very, very skeptical of the AI thing, but just using it myself over the last couple of years, but with the agents over the last five months, it's become pretty obvious to me that there's a there there.

661
00:50:10,128 --> 00:50:10,688
It's real.

662
00:50:10,848 --> 00:50:14,728
If you know how to use it, it can make you a better operator.

663
00:50:14,728 --> 00:50:24,208
And it's just going to be there's just going to be a lag period before the broader market wakes up to that begins implementing this.

664
00:50:24,308 --> 00:50:28,368
And if that happens, the demand for these tokens is going exponential.

665
00:50:28,708 --> 00:50:31,608
We're at the cusp of what we're going to see in the next decade.

666
00:50:32,828 --> 00:50:33,948
Yeah, well, you've got a great show.

667
00:50:34,068 --> 00:50:37,488
You provide enormous value to your viewers through your insights.

668
00:50:37,628 --> 00:50:39,048
So I'm just happy to be a part of it.

669
00:50:39,068 --> 00:50:40,008
And thanks for having me on.

670
00:50:40,608 --> 00:50:40,928
All right.

671
00:50:41,168 --> 00:50:47,248
We'll link to John's X account, what he's doing at AOG in the show notes.

672
00:50:47,248 --> 00:50:48,788
And hopefully we can do this again soon.

673
00:50:49,328 --> 00:50:49,908
Yeah, yeah.

674
00:50:50,468 --> 00:50:51,368
So thank you.

675
00:50:51,468 --> 00:50:53,988
And yeah, check out AOTG ETF if you guys are interested.

676
00:50:54,308 --> 00:50:56,148
Awesome. Peace and love, freaks.