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Chris, good morning to you on the West Coast. Early afternoon for me. How are you?

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I'm doing very well, Marty. How are you doing?

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Doing well. Excited for this conversation. I mean, we've been talking about the intersection

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of real estate and Bitcoin for a few years now. Right before we hit record, you mentioned

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Leon Wonkham. We've had Andrew Hones on the show and a few others to talk about this. And recently

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we've had some real estate experts that really aren't focused on Bitcoin that have come on. So

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I think this is going to be a good continuation conversation. And you're someone in the real

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estate industry in California, specifically, that has decided to come out and sort of ring

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the alarm bells. On August 20th, you sent out a tweet, that's your pinned tweet, a warning and a

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call to action for the entire real estate industry. Real estate is at a breaking point,

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monetary debasement, 62% inventory obsolete, new financial products competing for capital.

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And so it seems like you're very well ingratiated in the real estate industry. You're a Bitcoiner,

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and you see the writing on the wall of some of the problems in the real estate industry,

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and you think Bitcoin is a potential solution to the problems that exist.

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uh that's absolutely right um you know i i've been kind of watching this uh you know from the

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sideline so to speak you know having a career in the commercial real estate world and being a

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bitcoiner on the side uh for almost a decade now um i joke i i tend to round up i'm probably seven

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or eight years in or so but i'm just watching it and thinking through you know what this means and

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and, you know, the second and third kind of derivatives of the, you know, the disruption

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that's going to take place here. And it's just gotten to, you know, a tipping point where,

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you know, I couldn't sit back anymore and just had to speak up, started to put

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some thoughts down on paper. I kind of been baking a strategy for a handful of years.

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And, you know, the really the last piece of the puzzle was the cash flow piece.

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So, you know, I I've said to others that Bitcoin's CAGR could have been 200 percent a year.

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It didn't matter.

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There was a large segment of the real estate world that was just not going to give it any attention because of that cash flow component.

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And there's obviously arguments for and against that.

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I get it. But when Saylor and Strategy started releasing these preferred offerings that provided

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that cash flow stream built on top of Bitcoin, that was when I was like, oh, boy, here we go.

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Now we got to start talking about this because like it, hate it, whether you understand it or

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not, I mean, these are viable competitors to the real estate industry, not just the bond markets.

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So I just started talking about it. And here we are today.

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And I think it's good that you're in the commercial real estate space because recently we had Melody Wright on talking about residential real estate.

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And I think it's important to draw a line between the two and really highlight the sort of difference of each.

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And we went pretty deep on residential real estate about a month ago.

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And so I think commercial real estate is a different beast, particularly in a post-COVID world where you had everybody rushing to work from home.

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And it seems like a lot of the commercial real estate properties were under stress during that era and still to this day.

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So I guess to take a step back and just talk about the problem before we jump into certain solutions, how bad is it out there?

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Yeah, I mean, that's a good question.

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And the commercial real estate sector in and of itself, I mean, it's vast.

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People tend to paint it with just a broad brush.

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But they overlook the fact of how many different property types and specialties make up the commercial space.

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And each of them have their own dynamics, their own supply demand dynamics that make it up.

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You know, deals get done very differently across each of these product types.

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So there, you know, we could have a podcast, a long form discussion on literally each one of those specialties.

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But I mean, just at a high level, I mean, you obviously have Bitcoin, which is, you know, it's going to is disrupting the industry massively and it's only going to pick up steam.

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But when you zoom out and you start to look at or consider all the other macro forces that are colliding at the same time, right?

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I mean, you cover a lot of them on your pod regularly, right?

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Demographics, technology, AI, automation, robotics, different generational expectations and consumer demands.

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A long-term debt cycle ending a new monetary regime emerging.

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I mean, you stack all these major forces up and then you turn around and look at the commercial real estate markets just in the United States.

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And in the United States, there's about 87 billion square feet of commercial property, just roughly.

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That's the four major food groups, office, industrial, retail and multifamily.

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There's a handful of specialty sectors, but for the purpose of our conversation, let's just say it's 87 billion square feet. 62% of that supply, about 54 billion of it, was built before 1990. It's older than you and I are.

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So that was built in a completely different era, different consumer demands, different business models, all of it.

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So you hold that and then look back at these major forces that are underway and you come to the conclusion very quickly of how much of that supply is functionally and economically obsolete.

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and you start to have an oh oh shit moment um like how how are we going to navigate this and

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the next question you ask yourself is well who owns all of this stuff right and that's

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one of the big differences between residential and commercial right um who owns all this stuff

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if you strip out all the private or excuse me you strip out all the public entities the the

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REITs, what have you. Commercial real estate is owned about 60% privately. It's privately held

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throughout the United States. And that's not including the private REITs, the private

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institutional funds. If you included those, you're another handful of percentage points higher.

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So just looking, just knowing that 60% of the supply is owned privately, that's you, me,

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mom, dad, grandma, grandpa, small operators, business owners, family offices, it's mainstream.

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So that's a huge problem. And, you know, kind of how you started the top of this,

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this discussion was, you know, it's gotten to a point where we have to start, we have to

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acknowledge it. We have to start having these frank discussions about what it means and how

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we're going to move forward. There's a lot of really smart people in the commercial space.

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And if we leverage our collective brainpower, I have no doubt that we're going to make this

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transition a lot more seamless than it could be otherwise.

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Yeah. And I think based off a tweet you sent out this morning and I'll pull it up here to

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so people on the YouTube and Spotify video can see it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like

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there's an incentive misalignment between tenants and the owners of the building. You say here,

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office reset motion, vacancy remains elevated, tenants are consolidating, decision cycles are

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longer, TI packages are bigger, renewals are shorter, well-located class A with strong amenities

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is still moving, generic space is sitting, and pricing is adjusting. And so you have

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the goals and the incentives of the people that own this property, which is, hey, we need to get

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tenants in and start cash flowing. And then you have the incentives of the tenants where

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they're thinking, okay, is this the best economic decision I can make for my business,

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my family, whatever it may be? And it looks like there's a bit of an incentive realignment,

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particularly on a duration scale, if that makes any sense.

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Absolutely. And I mean, I've been kind of pounding the table to the fact that this is not

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just another cycle, right? I mean, some of the biggest criticism or biggest feedback I'm getting

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from folks online is that, you know, real estate cyclical, you know, we've been here before,

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it's just another down cycle, right? And okay, fair enough. You know, I don't have 40 years

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experience in the business, but you're missing a big piece of the puzzle here, right? I mean,

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Over on top of these cyclical changes, there's some structural changes that are taking place.

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The mismatch between landlords and tenants is just one of those that you're highlighting.

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So whether it's shorter lease terms, in commercial real estate lease terms, majority of them are three to five years in length.

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You can get seven and 10 years on larger tenants, larger properties, but by and large, they're three to five years.

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And there's a lot of capital that is outlaid up front by both parties to get a deal done and to get the space ready.

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So when the tenant base is saying we're not signing a five-year lease because of X, Y, and Z, we need a 12, 24-month lease, that creates a whole host of issues for the landlord and the property and even the tenant.

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So there's some big disconnects there that we haven't really filtered through yet.

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yeah i guess diving into the economics of the the building owners and the owners of commercial

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real estate where it's privately owned or even the big funds i guess distilling this down to

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the first principles explain it like i'm five commercial real estate what what is it what is

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their goal at the end of the day what is their time frame how much of a return are they typically

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looking to make? I mean, you can have timeline hold periods as short as three to five years. I

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mean, that's really the bulk of it the last 15, 20 years. And that's how you're really making

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your returns and turning a profit is those shorter compressed hold periods. You're not

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necessarily buying the properties for long-term holds into cash flow because these things are

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only spitting off four or five, 6% in cashflow. So if you're going to, you know, again, outpace

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inflation, outpace debasement and, you know, turn a profit, you're making it on the exit.

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So three to five years is the short period, the majority of the period, I should say. And

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there's some core assets, some core plus assets that are longer term holds, 10 years plus,

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But those are, you know, you have a very different tenant profile.

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You have a very different end user in those properties.

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So three to five years, they're basically looking to get their nut on sprucing up the place and flipping it to somebody else.

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Yeah, exactly.

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And you're, I mean, at the end of that whole period, you're looking maybe high teens on a return.

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I think that's kind of what you're looking for there on your question.

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high teens, low 20s are few and far between. If you get into the spec development world,

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you're mid 20s, but you're also taking a lot more risk. There's a lot more expertise and

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experience that's needed in those transactions. So yeah, high teens is what you're looking at.

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And again, I mean, that's where you come back to Bitcoin as the hurdle rate. It's like,

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At what point do these LPs, some of these less experienced operators, just see the light and say, hey, I'm going to allocate this capital to other assets?

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I think this transition is going to be – there are some good things that are going to happen from this transition.

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I don't want to be a total doer on it because that's just not who I am.

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But I mean, I think the disruption is going to flush out a lot of malinvestment that we've had over the years.

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And it's also going to separate the pros from the amateurs.

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But I mean, there are a lot of people running around pretending like they are sophisticated real estate professionals.

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And, you know, when now that the market conditions have changed, interest rates have gone up, cost materials and labor.

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I mean, they don't know how to to navigate these markets.

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So the folks that don't have the edge, they don't have the expertise, they don't have a strategy.

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They're going to get flushed out. And those that remain, they're going to have to have a comprehensive strategy that they apply to every asset or across the portfolio.

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if they're going to remain competitive and relevant and profitable.

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I mean, in my world, the big buzzword is we have a value add deal.

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And value add, when you strip away all the lipstick there, right?

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Value add just basically means we're buying a property.

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We're making some minimal cosmetic upgrades.

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We're pushing rents.

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Maybe we'll rename it.

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We'll rebrand the property.

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and then we're going to flip out of it for a multiple in a few years, right? We're not really

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adding any value to the property. And I think that game is coming to an end as well. So again,

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those that are remaining in the industry, they have to have an edge. They have to have some

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sort of strategy. And I'm not pretending like I have it all figured out, but I've put a lot of

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thought into what that strategy looks like. And that's kind of what I've been talking about online

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is these four pillars that real estate operators have to execute on if they going to be successful And the first one is I call it your Bitcoin strategy but you can call it your capital strategy whatever you want

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And the Bitcoin strategy consists of a couple of things. One is your, you know, what percentage of

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your US dollars are getting allocated into Bitcoin? That's question one. Question two is,

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I can also see a scenario where your US dollars are being held in a vehicle like stretch.

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Right. So you're being really intentional about how you're holding your your capital.

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The second pillar or the second category in that that Bitcoin strategy are your loans and financing mechanisms.

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Right. And you've done a great job of talking about the dual collateralized loans and these long duration credit products that infuse Bitcoin.

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I'm really excited about that. I think that's going to be a natural onboarding transition mechanism for the industry at large. So I'm excited to see where that's going. And the third piece of this capital strategy is how you're raising equity.

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And that comes down to understanding or at least acknowledging that your competition is just not your immediate sub market. It's not the building across the street, right? It's spot Bitcoin for one. And it's these adjacent products that companies like strategy are putting out.

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because again, like it, hate it, whatever your feelings are on them, there is a percentage of

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capital that's going to naturally migrate into these other assets as adoption grows,

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as awareness goes, as these financial advisors across the country get educated

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and incentivized to put them into the boomer's portfolio, there's going to be a significant

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good percentage of real estate owners, they're going to say, Hey, I don't need that, you know,

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apartment building anymore. Right. I don't need the tenants. I don't need the termites, all of that.

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And they're going to go for that, you know, less management intensive vehicle.

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So that's one of the pillars. The other one is your energy consumption,

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right? I mean, depending in commercial property, energy is about 30% of your operating expenses.

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It'll fluctuate property to property, but that's a good benchmark is 30%.

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And in most markets, all markets, all property types, your energy the last handful of years, last five, six years is increasing double digits, which far, far outpaces your fixed rent escalations.

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escalations. So if you're going to streamline operations, you're going to keep that NOI

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robust and durable, you have to optimize that energy consumption any which way you possibly can.

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And most of the industry knows about the basics, right? Window tents and films and sensors. There's

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all these IoT devices now that'll reduce overall consumption, solar panels, battery storage,

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But now forward-looking real estate owners have to start thinking about Bitcoin mining, right?

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And how do you integrate that into the asset or across your portfolio?

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When you do it effectively, you're not only subsidizing, you're not only able to subsidize the energy cost, but you're taking an expense line and turning it into an income stream.

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When you do that on a large property or at scale across a portfolio, that's not an incremental improvement. That's a step function improvement in your operational efficiencies.

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and you know i i need to kind of preface this by by acknowledging that you know bitcoin mining into

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these building systems is still very new there's a lot of changes going on and a lot of innovation

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taking place but at the same time it's moving a lot faster than most people realize it is and i

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mean i'm also not an energy expert by any stretch but as a real estate person i see these three

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industries, these once separate industries colliding, right? You got real estate, you got

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energy, and now Bitcoin, tech, however you want to put that last one together. But they're

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previously separate, now they're colliding. And when you apply it to this real estate asset,

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it's taking this single purpose, this single use, monolithic, depreciating asset,

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and turning it into this financial machine that's resilient and positioned well for the 21st century.

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I mean, if that doesn't get you out of bed every morning as a real estate operator, I don't know what does, right?

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So I'm really excited to see what happens in that particular area.

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The third category and the fourth category, the third category is tech integration, right?

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how are you integrating technology into the asset or across a portfolio? And technology helps you

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accomplish two things. One, it helps you provide a superior user experience, a superior customer

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experience, and it helps you streamline the operational efficiencies. We can have an entire

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podcast on the topic of prop tech. That's what it's called in my world. But again, it's allowing

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you to create conveniences and amenities for your tenants if they become very sticky.

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That's very, very important.

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The second piece of it on the operational side is you're able to get real-time data,

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make decisions faster, inform decisions at that faster, which ultimately keep your costs

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down and extend useful lives of building infrastructure.

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So that's very, very important. And the fourth category, and I'll stop talking here, has to do with modular improvements, right? If renovations and tenant improvements over the last decade, they've increased 100% across all product types, across all markets.

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And again, if you're working on three to five-year lease terms with these tenants and you're spending five, six figures every time a tenant moves out just to get ready for the next guy, that's terribly inefficient from a capital perspective.

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And then you look at it.

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This goes back to your earlier question, too, whether you have a mismatch and incentives.

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The landlord foots the bill a lot of the time for those improvements.

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and oftentimes they're break-even points not until month, somewhere between month 20 and 25,

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generally speaking. If you have a big TI job, it can be well into the third year of the lease.

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So again, if you're turning over these units and dumping large chunks of capital into them every

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few years, in the world that we're going into, that is a very bad idea and you have to figure

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out how to optimize that. And fortunately today we have modular improvements that are getting a lot

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better. They're applicable here. And from the owner's standpoint, it allows you to appeal to

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a broader audience, right? More tenants at once. And then in addition to that, you can carry,

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there's a residual value component that you can maintain through time and across multiple tenants.

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That's significant capital, significant dollars that fall straight to your bottom line.

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So again, just to kind of put a bow on all this, if you're going to be a real estate operator,

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you know, through the end of this decade and into the 2030s, that old value add strategy,

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you know, letting appreciation do its thing, that's gone.

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Don't do that.

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Don't give your money to that investor.

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That's a bad idea.

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They have to have a comprehensive strategy that they're going to execute on the asset

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or across a broader portfolio, full stop.

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that was a fire hose of information i've been here taking notes and it makes a ton of sense

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yeah i mean i think this intersection we said like energy real estate bitcoin whatever you

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want to call it tech is certainly happening and i think capital efficiency is the name of the game

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as we get into this sort of debasement trade reality and obviously i think bitcoin is going

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to be a crucial part of anybody's tool set, not only in real estate, but like bringing this back

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to the top of that fire hose, going back to the question of where are you holding your capital?

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You said that micro strategy stretch, the preferred offerings with yield are very appealing.

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But just to paint like a full picture for people, what is the typical

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sort of practice of real estate investors or property owners, what they do with their cash

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low and the cash in their bank account and they're just buying treasuries are they going into money

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market funds what are they doing yeah i mean it it's it's all the above right checking accounts

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t-bills money market funds just short duration um vehicles that are you know perceived as safe

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and you know throw off a little bit of yield um but again i mean again maybe this is my the

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big coiner in me i'm you know looking at these products and you just kind of look at some of the

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highlights, senior in the capital stack, over collateralized by five or six times,

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liquidity, all of these things. I personally would put my trust in the management team over

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at strategy than I would the clowns in Washington, because we all know where that goes.

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We all know what happens there. We've seen that movie.

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Yeah. And I'm actually like instead of misalignment, I mean, I think it's top of everybody's mind.

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Maybe not everybody's, but it's a big theme right now.

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The relative unaffordability, unaffordability of real estate.

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And when we're talking about like incentives of the owner specifically, whether it's an individual or a fund,

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And they need the value of the asset, the real estate asset to go up to sort of make their nuts.

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And so they're highly incentivized to push the price up and bringing us back to what you mentioned about these dual collateralized structures.

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structures. That's why we're supporting battery finance at 1031 and why we're very bullish on the

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strategy overall, not just for them specifically, but people that are tenants of commercial real

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estate properties or residential real estate properties, because you sort of give the owners

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of these properties a reprieve in the sense that they don't need the equity value of the property

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to go up a certain percentage every three to five years.

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If it's dual collateralized, they can let Bitcoin do some of the work of equity value accretion.

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Absolutely.

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I mean, I think it comes just to distilling that down for the average real estate person

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is you have to explain to them that this is a new tool, a new innovation that's complementing

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the real estate asset.

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right if if your livelihood and your business is you know in and around real estate that's

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fantastic good right i'm not saying sell all of it and you know run to the hills learn how to

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homestead that's not what we're talking about here right you have a new tool that improves

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the asset that you know inside and out right why would you not learn it why would you not

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figure out how to integrate it into the into the operations into the asset plain and simple

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yeah and it's not only i think the benefit of adding bitcoin to the collateral package is

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twofold maybe more than twofold but i can think of two very good reasons off the top of my head

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obviously bitcoin's cagger um again it can help you increase the equity value of that collateral

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package um quicker arguably than you would which you're just depending on real estate alone but

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And then liquidity, which you mentioned, too. I think the liquidity component is very underappreciated.

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The ability, if God forbid something goes wrong, to get part of your principal back immediately.

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Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's whether it's the loan piece or the treasury piece that we're talking about.

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When I'm talking with real estate owners about this topic, bringing the conversation to where they're at, right?

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meeting them where they're at, right? Why should you hold Bitcoin on your balance sheet? Well,

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you can improve your purchasing power. You can build and maintain adequate reserves for CapEx

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and maintenance and emergencies, right? And then you're going to improve your credit worthiness

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over time, right? That's something that the real estate owners get, right? They can get on board

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with that. And that's just the treasury component, right? Now you add in the loan component,

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And the conversation just continues from there.

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Well, on that note, since you've gone public and I'm sure you've been talking to this to many other people outside of your audience on X, how has this pitch been received by people in your industry?

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It's it's been mixed. It's been very mixed.

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I, you know, that said, I have been pleasantly surprised at the at the feedback.

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There's a lot more curiosity and receptiveness than I initially expected, which is positive.

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I mean, I've had people reach out from across the country in all different areas of the industry.

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Right. Brokers, lenders, fund managers, contractors. And the conversation with those guys goes one of two ways. The first one is, oh, my God, thank you for saying this. You know, I thought I was the only one, which that's that's an easy conversation.

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And the second piece is, this is really interesting. I see where you're going. Tell me more. Those are the positive feedbacks. The negative feedback, I mean, again, I mentioned earlier, this is a cyclical business. We've been here before. If you're into Bitcoin, why don't you just go buy Bitcoin? Just dismissing it.

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Right. So that tells me that there, you know, that education gap is still very, very, very wide.

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And we have to do everything we can to to narrow that gap Well on that last point that the most common negative feedback that I get is all right why don we just use the cash to buy Bitcoin Why do we need to dual collateralize it

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Why does the real estate company need to hold it on the balance sheet themselves?

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And again, what you said earlier, like a lot of people, a lot of hardcore Bitcoiners like sell all your real estate, like get out of it, just buy Bitcoin.

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But it's like, no, we actually need businesses and properties that these businesses actually operate in to provide goods and service to the economy.

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So there's got to be some sort of middle ground or bridge that sort of connects these two worlds.

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You can't just throw the baby out with the bathwater.

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You can't just everybody dumps all their assets, buys Bitcoin and thinks the world's going to be fine.

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It's not how it works.

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Exactly. And I say very, very frequently, right?

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I'm not saying that real estate's going to zero.

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Right. Far, far from it. Right. It's it's it plays a vital role like you're you're alluding to in human society by shelter, business, community, culturally.

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I mean, pick pick one. But to perceive like it's business as usual, like it's just another cycle and, you know, things are going to work themselves out.

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that is a very, very, very dangerous approach. And to think that, you know, because you bought

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properties in the last cycle for four or five, six caps, and, you know, when the cycle comes

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full circle, you're going to be able to exit that property at similar cap rates and, you know,

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go about your business. I think that's incredibly nearsighted. I also think if you think that you're

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again, going back to that inventory issue we have, right, of 62% of it being built before 1990.

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If you think those properties are all going to trade at a premium with the trophy assets and

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the class A properties, again, I think you're incredibly nearsighted. You're not looking at

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the entire game board objectively. Well, on that point of the sort of dated inventory,

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What do you think happens with that or needs to happen? Does a lot of it get demolished? Does a lot of it need to be bought and completely gutted and renovated? Or what's the solution there?

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Yeah, that's a tough question because it varies so much by market and property type. But generally speaking, I would say, yeah, there's a lot of just small parcels, small properties, whether they're funky shapes or inefficient layouts, they largely need to get demoed.

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They need to be redeveloped.

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If someone will come in and assemble multiple parcels to get some scale and build something new, that's how I see that going down.

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But that's going to – if you don't get some of the local municipalities on board, right?

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I mean you're just stuck in a regulatory quagmire for years.

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I mean, that's one of the things that disincentivizes a lot of that activity from taking place.

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I mean, especially since COVID, there should be there's a fair amount of redevelopment and demolition going on across the country, but not nearly as as much as it should be.

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And I always come back to, you know, the regulatory burdens that are there. I mean, the time and the cost that it takes to get through zoning and planning in any one of these municipalities, whether the state is red or blue, is it'll follow your mind. Right.

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And along that entire way, you have to have a team of people that are ushering it through the process, right?

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There was so much education.

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There's so much Q&A that takes place with the planners.

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So it's not just a set it and forget it, fill out an application and wait for the decision.

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I mean it's very, very proactive to get through some of these city governments.

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Yeah, I forgot to mention my OG intersection of Bitcoin and real estate guest Kelly Landon, but we spent a whole episode many years ago, probably three years ago now at this point, just on the zoning and planning requirements.

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And it seems like that's something that needs to be completely raised to the ground.

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and we thought.

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Just in my day-to-day business,

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in commercial real estate,

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you always have to know

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what the underlying zoning is for a property, right?

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Because that essentially dictates

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what can and cannot go on a particular location.

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So I'm a lot more familiar with the city zoning

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than I ever thought I would be.

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And where I'm at in Southern California,

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I mean, I play in probably a dozen different cities.

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I mean, these zoning codes are 500 pages, you know, each city.

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And there's, you know, footnotes here and nuances there and asterisks there.

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I mean, you've got to have a, you know, an AI just for that particular city to get through the zoning code.

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And at the end of the day, the guy just wants to know if he can do manufacturing at the location.

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So it's, yeah, it's, that's a whole other topic in and of itself as well.

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But I mean, I think about online, I've been using the word devaluation, right? I've been using

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devaluation a lot. And, you know, I will admit, I'm, you know, I'm trying to get a little bit of

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a shock and awe factor, right? You know, get your attention to some extent. I think about

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devaluation versus the, you know, the melt up scenario, right? And in the, you know,

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in the short term, I think it'll be more of a melt up situation, but there's going to come a

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point in that process where there's no marginal buyer for the bottom 75% of the stock. And I think

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we saw the very beginning of this in the 21-22 cycle, there were 50, 60-year-old properties

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trading at figures that were just absolutely bonkers. So if and when you see that melt-up

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process occur again, where's that ceiling? And, you know, when you hit that ceiling,

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you know, it'll take time for the sellers to adjust their expectations and, you know,

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values of fall during that time. How long does it take? I don't know. Real estate moves a lot

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slower than, you know, global markets or anything in our digital world. But my fear there is,

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you know, by the time that a lot of those legacy owners realize what's going on there,

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the train's going to have left the station. And at that point, you know, what is the value of the

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property? You know, I mean, you have land value. I mean, so you can kind of look at it as a,

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you know, a little bit of a built-in stop loss if you have value in the underlying dirt.

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But again, on a lot of these older assets, these older properties, they're small parcels.

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unless you can assemble multiple and get you know get some scale there's not a whole lot of residual

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value there yeah i'm being reminded of sort of the shock and all devaluation headlines i've seen

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denver get a couple buildings go for a few million dollars and they're sold for nine figures not too

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long ago, I believe Baltimore, D.C. area, similar things, even Manhattan. Some of these properties

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are being sold at an 80% discount to their last purchase price. It seems like there definitely

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are pockets of the market where this devaluation is starting to happen.

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Absolutely. I mean, there's been some incredible data points hit the headlines. I mean,

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you're alluding to a lot of them. We've had a handful of them in my market here in Southern

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California. Again, I think that's good. You know, get those bases to reset. I mean,

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if you're an active participant in the real estate world and you had, like you should be

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buying, the only properties you should be buying now are you need to buy them out of bankruptcy,

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right? Courthouse steps, pennies on the dollar, get that basis as low as you possibly can,

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or buy it significantly below replacement costs, right? If you can do that, then I think you have

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a path forward, you know, long, you know, over the next five, 10 years, but that's also the first

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filter, right? Once you buy the property, if you can get a great location, great asset, attractive

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basis from there, you need to implement, you know, a strategy similar to what I laid out

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earlier, right? Because if you don't do those things, you're not proactive about

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the operations. I don't care how great the property looks on paper, you will struggle to compete

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in the years ahead. So that's how I kind of see it is, you know, if you want, if you insist on,

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you know, buying real estate now, make sure you're looking in some of those

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those areas.

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That's that begs the question, like how many buyers are in a position to actually do that

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versus those that are fully allocated and sort of stuck with the portfolio that they've

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already built?

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I'm actually really glad you said that.

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I mean, and before I go into that, I mean, the.

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What you just described, right, how many people can actually do that, right?

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That goes back to one of my earlier points, right?

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We're going to separate the pros from the wannabes, right?

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If you're buying a property off Zillow, off LoopNet, whatever, mass marketed, that one's

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going to struggle, right?

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And I'm saying this to my own detriment.

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I mean, I'm a broker.

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I do leasing and sales of office and industrial properties.

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But you need to have the foresight and the understanding of how to buy these assets below

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their fair market value, right?

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So that's my two cents on that. But as far as these operators that have existing portfolios, they have existing obligations, that's a tough sell.

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There's some operators, some big time capital that's coming into these major markets, gateway markets, you know, large metros, mine being one of them here in Southern California, where they don't have any of those existing obligations to worry about.

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They got a couple billion dollars in cash and they're ready to deploy it.

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And, you know, if you find yourself in that situation, then that's a really, really incredibly strong place to be in.

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And I definitely think you have a path forward there.

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Absolutely.

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One thing you said earlier.

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00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:55,720
Have to have discipline in what you're buying.

385
00:41:56,220 --> 00:41:57,780
Have to have discipline in what you're buying.

386
00:41:58,480 --> 00:41:58,700
Yeah.

387
00:41:58,700 --> 00:42:17,740
And bringing this back to the sort of intersection of Bitcoin in the market that you play in, one thing that you said earlier that was encouraging is that you've had a bunch of people reach out from different parts of the industry, from brokers to buyer sellers, contractors, developing companies.

388
00:42:17,740 --> 00:42:31,880
And that's encouraging because if each of these individuals or individual entities in these different part of the markets begin incorporating Bitcoin, it sort of de-risk them all at the same time, in my mind.

389
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:38,140
if they each get Bitcoin on the balance sheet or incorporate it into their part of the industry

390
00:42:38,140 --> 00:42:41,440
in the way that that's best suited for them.

391
00:42:41,620 --> 00:42:47,900
You can see like a collective strength building up where it's easier to do deals and people

392
00:42:47,900 --> 00:42:51,960
don't feel like they're taking on too much risk because they have this

393
00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:55,620
safety net, for lack of a better term, in their Bitcoin exposure.

394
00:42:57,540 --> 00:42:58,020
Absolutely.

395
00:42:58,020 --> 00:43:05,000
I mean, you can draw those same comparisons in the lending space, right, with what battery is doing.

396
00:43:05,240 --> 00:43:11,900
And, you know, those that have the dual collateralized loans, they're going to fare a lot better than those that don't.

397
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:26,540
And when those properties that don't have that Bitcoin exposure go bust, that's going to be the batteries of the world are going to be the players that can swoop in and get properties at good basis.

398
00:43:26,540 --> 00:43:32,960
same thing with the development community i mean there's going to be for the developers that you

399
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:39,400
know have a war chest um of you know of bitcoin there's going to be some incredible opportunities

400
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:47,100
for them over the next handful of years to um acquire market share absolutely

401
00:43:47,100 --> 00:43:53,020
um and it's kind of i was thinking through i haven't i have been thinking through this one

402
00:43:53,020 --> 00:44:00,400
a little bit. You have the Bitcoin cycle, right? I mean, obviously some people are arguing that

403
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:05,920
that four-year cycle's over with, but whatever your opinions are there, you have a Bitcoin cycle

404
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:13,420
and you have a real estate cycle, right? And over this arc of time, they're colliding, right? So

405
00:44:13,420 --> 00:44:21,000
I almost see you in the point of the cycle where you're in your Bitcoin accumulation phase

406
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:27,820
and your education phase, right? So accumulate as much Bitcoin as you possibly can and educate

407
00:44:27,820 --> 00:44:36,300
yourself on what these various components of a strategy can be, right? And as you're doing that,

408
00:44:36,700 --> 00:44:41,680
you need to have a, you know, do an assessment of your holdings, right? Figure out which assets are

409
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:47,580
core and which ones aren't. The ones that aren't, sell them. Get rid of them. Doesn't matter if you

410
00:44:47,580 --> 00:44:55,540
take a slight discount on them or not. Get them off your books, get that liquidity. And I see this

411
00:44:55,540 --> 00:45:02,020
kind of period of cycle going from today to maybe 2030, 2032 on the long end. And then from there,

412
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:07,660
you start deploying your war chest. You start implementing the strategy. Hopefully you've

413
00:45:07,660 --> 00:45:14,240
acquired some stuff between now and then. And you have a handful of doors. You have a handful of

414
00:45:14,240 --> 00:45:22,580
buildings to go execute the strategy on. That's not a fully baked idea, but you just kind of,

415
00:45:22,580 --> 00:45:27,140
you got my wheels turned there as you made some of those comments. But I'm kind of seeing those

416
00:45:27,140 --> 00:45:33,500
things collide again. Yeah. And well, what you were talking earlier on the subject of prop tech,

417
00:45:34,240 --> 00:45:40,200
make tenants sticky, get you better data. I don't think this applies to those two points

418
00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:43,820
that you may, but you look at something like Square did last week

419
00:45:43,820 --> 00:45:47,100
with the integration of Bitcoin

420
00:45:47,100 --> 00:46:02,760
and their point of sale systems And if you a property developer particularly for commercial real estate that catering to retail businesses it like huh maybe you lightly nudge the tenants to use Square terminals

421
00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:08,040
and educate them about Bitcoin to sweep a portion of their cash flows

422
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:09,920
into Bitcoin using the Square terminal.

423
00:46:10,580 --> 00:46:14,080
Because that's the tenant risk for you.

424
00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:17,540
So I love where you're going with this.

425
00:46:17,620 --> 00:46:19,200
Play that out one more step, right?

426
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:25,780
In commercial real estate, a large part of the value that people pay, the multiples people

427
00:46:25,780 --> 00:46:29,480
pay are based on the tenant, right?

428
00:46:29,500 --> 00:46:31,220
It's not 100% on the property itself.

429
00:46:31,260 --> 00:46:34,080
It's on the quality of the cash flow, right?

430
00:46:34,140 --> 00:46:37,020
So in our world, we talk about credit tenants, right?

431
00:46:37,020 --> 00:46:41,760
If you've got a bunch of credit tenants, that property is going to go for a premium relative

432
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:43,320
to a property that doesn't.

433
00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:59,920
And as you know, if you can, if you have this retail center, this strip center where you can lightly nudge or incentivize your tenants to learn and accept Bitcoin, how does that property trade in the marketplace when you go to sell it?

434
00:46:59,920 --> 00:47:12,020
If you have a retail center that's got however many tenants it is, but those tenants hold Bitcoin on their balance sheet and you have the exact same property where those tenants don't.

435
00:47:12,900 --> 00:47:16,620
How does the market assign a risk to that?

436
00:47:16,700 --> 00:47:18,560
Those two properties, how do they assign a premium?

437
00:47:19,700 --> 00:47:22,840
That one's going to be really fun to watch play out.

438
00:47:24,260 --> 00:47:25,640
So stay tuned on that.

439
00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:28,540
You have to have me back for when that actually happens.

440
00:47:28,540 --> 00:47:32,340
And I'll bring all the data points and analysis for you.

441
00:47:33,340 --> 00:47:38,640
Yeah, because I think it's very underappreciated what they launched last week.

442
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:48,420
Four million small, medium, some large size businesses across the country with the ability to do this automatically as of last week.

443
00:47:48,420 --> 00:47:54,520
who knows what the uptick on adoption of that particular feature within the point of sale system

444
00:47:54,520 --> 00:48:00,760
will look like but you can imagine a world where slowly but surely it starts at five percent grows

445
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:06,720
to ten and maybe fifty percent of square merchants are sweeping at least ten percent of their revenues

446
00:48:06,720 --> 00:48:13,640
in the bitcoin and it's going to be incredible the amount of data that many people have four

447
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:19,440
years from now to make decisions off of. And I think the one thing I wanted to say earlier,

448
00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:24,000
or a question I wanted to bring up is, and this is something I've been beating the drum about,

449
00:48:24,260 --> 00:48:28,140
particularly in relation to this, the square launches a bunch of people,

450
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:37,380
particularly in finance and in real estate and other markets are sort of pointing at the treasury,

451
00:48:37,500 --> 00:48:41,300
the Fed, the Trump administration saying, don't worry, they're not going to let things go to shit.

452
00:48:41,300 --> 00:49:00,180
And I think that sort of consensus view on how we're going to, quote unquote, fix the problem is short sighted and people need to adopt sort of creative, bold solutions that are sort of external and inoculated from from the whims of the political class.

453
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:04,380
I agree with you 100 percent.

454
00:49:04,460 --> 00:49:06,160
I think it's incredibly short sighted.

455
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:23,120
I think the the the market, you know, the the players in the market have all been, you know, conditioned for at least the last 15 years to believe that the you know, the Fed's not going to allow another a real down cycle to occur.

456
00:49:23,460 --> 00:49:28,960
Right. I mean, the Fed put, you know, comment has I mean, it's everywhere.

457
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:33,840
And again, I think that's incredibly dangerous.

458
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:40,440
I think it's nearsighted. But, you know, when you play and again, when you play this out, let's just say that they do jump in.

459
00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:46,320
They jump in, they backstop it, you know, no problem. Right. We're business as usual.

460
00:49:50,180 --> 00:49:55,880
One, we've seen the inflationary impacts of that, but that's I'll leave that on the side for now.

461
00:49:55,880 --> 00:50:01,300
But if if they do that. Their only tool is interest rates, right?

462
00:50:01,300 --> 00:50:14,240
I mean, interest rates aren't reversing demographics. They're not reversing AI and automation, robotics, right, from reshaping business models and broader society.

463
00:50:15,580 --> 00:50:19,220
They're not they can't change the mobility of labor.

464
00:50:20,900 --> 00:50:23,640
They're not going to change the rise of Bitcoin as a store value.

465
00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:28,500
Right. So all of those things are outside of the Fed's control.

466
00:50:28,500 --> 00:50:37,120
There's structural changes taking place in the market. And this goes back to, you know, what I said earlier is this is not just another cycle.

467
00:50:37,580 --> 00:50:43,800
Right. This is a there are structural changes taking place, which is why you can't assume that this is business as usual.

468
00:50:43,800 --> 00:51:08,780
Oh. And with that in mind, I mean, you've given a rough playbook, but for anybody listening who's in commercial real estate, what is the lowest hanging fruit? What is the first step? What is the game plan to begin thinking about this? Because we've been going for 50 minutes, and I'm sure for a lot of people, it's overwhelming.

469
00:51:08,780 --> 00:51:14,140
But from your experience, what what do you what would you advise in terms of?

470
00:51:14,140 --> 00:51:18,080
All right. You are curious about this. You think it may be a good idea.

471
00:51:18,340 --> 00:51:20,420
What do I do first? What do I do next?

472
00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:27,940
Yeah, I mean, the the first first step is just, you know, putting your ego aside and getting educated.

473
00:51:27,940 --> 00:51:34,100
Right. I mean, I imagine that a lot of people, you know, listening to your channel are already there.

474
00:51:34,100 --> 00:51:47,640
But, you know, for the real estate professionals that maybe aren't start start getting familiar with Bitcoin, start the learning and the education journey.

475
00:51:48,060 --> 00:52:00,560
And as you get that, the first step is to buy some Bitcoin, you know, allocate some of your U.S. dollars to Bitcoin, hold it in self custody, experience what that is like.

476
00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:07,220
right i mean you you should have the butterflies in your stomach when you you know export or send

477
00:52:07,220 --> 00:52:12,180
your your sats from the the exchange to your wallet that first time and they don't show up

478
00:52:12,180 --> 00:52:16,020
instantaneously right i mean you should be having an oh shit moment did i do something wrong is it

479
00:52:16,020 --> 00:52:24,860
gone forever have that experience go through the process and start slowly accumulating a bitcoin

480
00:52:24,860 --> 00:52:30,140
coin position. Once you get there, now all those other avenues that, you know, we covered here

481
00:52:30,140 --> 00:52:38,060
today, you know, start to, you know, be are on the table and you don't have it all in one afternoon

482
00:52:38,060 --> 00:52:42,160
either. Right. I mean, this, like I said, at the top of the hour, I mean, I've been baking,

483
00:52:42,640 --> 00:52:46,880
you know, this, everything I've said here, I've been baking for half a dozen years.

484
00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:54,360
Yeah. Well, on the other side of that coin, what would you like to see in terms of products,

485
00:52:54,360 --> 00:53:01,360
services from the Bitcoin industry would make this roadmap easier to go and tackle?

486
00:53:02,540 --> 00:53:10,900
Oh, good question. I mean, obviously the point of sales for certain tenants is a big one, but

487
00:53:10,900 --> 00:53:16,540
in the commercial world, I think the lending area is probably the lowest hanging fruit.

488
00:53:18,420 --> 00:53:23,860
Since I've been talking about all of this, the number of questions and inquiries I've gotten

489
00:53:23,860 --> 00:53:28,640
from people across the country, different products or different, excuse me, different

490
00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:31,020
property types, different sizes.

491
00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:35,760
Where can I get one of these Bitcoin credit structures?

492
00:53:35,860 --> 00:53:37,760
Where can I get this dual collateralized loan?

493
00:53:38,360 --> 00:53:38,560
Right.

494
00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:44,300
And currently, you know, you can't, it's only reserved for a certain segment of the

495
00:53:44,300 --> 00:53:44,700
market, right?

496
00:53:44,720 --> 00:53:46,680
You have to have a certain size of the property.

497
00:53:46,680 --> 00:53:53,160
So I think there is a lot of opportunity in the middle and lower middle market to provide

498
00:53:53,160 --> 00:54:02,160
some of these lending solutions. Yeah. And that's just having been on the front lines of that. I

499
00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:07,060
think the big nut to crack there is to get institutional capital to take the plunge to

500
00:54:07,060 --> 00:54:12,720
actually deploy into these strategies, which is definitely beginning to happen.

501
00:54:13,220 --> 00:54:18,620
Not in earnest, but it's one thing that blows my mind, not even thinking about

502
00:54:18,620 --> 00:54:23,720
the dual collateralized, just simple Bitcoin collateralized loans for US dollars. If you look

503
00:54:23,720 --> 00:54:28,960
at the rates across the board for the companies that are doing it right, not using DeFi, putting

504
00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:34,500
it multi-sig, not re-hypothecating, the fact that it's double digits or just below double digits is

505
00:54:34,500 --> 00:54:39,320
insane to me when you consider the risk profile, considering the collateral sits in a wallet that

506
00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:45,640
can be liquidated 24-7, 365. And if you're putting dollars at risk, the risk that you

507
00:54:45,640 --> 00:54:51,540
actually lose your principal is extremely low. I'm surprised that the rates haven't come down

508
00:54:51,540 --> 00:55:00,460
faster as well. That was one I got wrong. I thought the rates would come down and you'd see

509
00:55:00,460 --> 00:55:07,780
a lot more of it sooner than we have. I mean, a positive thing, high signal, as you say,

510
00:55:07,780 --> 00:55:14,960
the fact that Batteries Deal and Philly there, they got awarded the CoStar

511
00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:22,840
multifamily deal of the year or developer deal of the year in that market. And CoStar,

512
00:55:23,280 --> 00:55:29,720
if you're not familiar, they're like the primary data source database for commercial real estate.

513
00:55:29,720 --> 00:55:36,640
Anybody in commercial real estate has a subscription to CoStar. So they're the monopoly.

514
00:55:36,640 --> 00:55:47,540
and for an incumbent like CoStar to issue that award and draw attention to that deal,

515
00:55:48,180 --> 00:55:50,020
that was very positive.

516
00:55:50,020 --> 00:55:56,180
And I've shared that with a lot of different folks in my world, and they all do a double

517
00:55:56,180 --> 00:55:56,420
take.

518
00:55:56,480 --> 00:55:57,080
They did what?

519
00:55:57,760 --> 00:56:00,340
And then they got awarded what?

520
00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:03,700
So it's opening up a lot of the conversations.

521
00:56:03,700 --> 00:56:10,920
People are saying, OK, there's these things have, you know, various like what the utility, various utility to to what we're talking about here.

522
00:56:11,020 --> 00:56:11,720
That's been helpful.

523
00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:12,720
Yeah.

524
00:56:14,240 --> 00:56:16,000
And I guess second to last question.

525
00:56:18,140 --> 00:56:21,180
Let's paint the optimistic future for commercial real estate.

526
00:56:21,280 --> 00:56:26,720
If this is all implemented, let's pretend like people listen to this and they go, oh, my gosh, Chris, you're right.

527
00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:29,960
Let's begin implementing this immediately.

528
00:56:30,580 --> 00:56:31,460
That happens.

529
00:56:31,460 --> 00:56:36,820
what does the world of commercial real estate and not only of commercial real estate, but beyond

530
00:56:36,820 --> 00:56:41,800
what do communities look like? What does the economy look like if this is fully integrated?

531
00:56:43,360 --> 00:56:47,380
Yeah, great question. We're going to have to have another hour for that one. But

532
00:56:47,380 --> 00:56:57,280
you have a much healthier and robust asset class, right? Real estate is the largest asset class in

533
00:56:57,280 --> 00:57:04,800
the world. It's ripe for disruption. Adopting and integrating Bitcoin into it and some of these

534
00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:11,160
other strategies makes it resilient. And again, it's going to improve your communities. It's going

535
00:57:11,160 --> 00:57:18,100
to improve your business. It's going to improve everything that comes with your life and lifestyle.

536
00:57:18,100 --> 00:57:29,260
I find it, you know, as much as Wall Street gets all the headlines and clicks and whatnot, Bitcoin started as a grassroots movement.

537
00:57:29,900 --> 00:57:32,940
And it's going, it's obviously continuing that way.

538
00:57:33,060 --> 00:57:46,720
But with the merchants, you know, the retail merchants adopting it, the investors using these long duration credit products, it's going to be a grassroots movement that continues and saves the real estate world.

539
00:57:46,720 --> 00:58:10,220
So that to me is how it plays out. That's how it plays out. And I mean, I went through college and entered the workforce when the Great Recession was going down and concluding, right?

540
00:58:10,220 --> 00:58:15,340
And when the dust settled on all of that, the movies were made, the books were written.

541
00:58:15,600 --> 00:58:23,720
I mean, it was very clear that there was a lot of people that knew exactly what was going on and they were doing some very questionable things.

542
00:58:23,780 --> 00:58:27,040
They weren't acting in the best interest of their clients.

543
00:58:27,180 --> 00:58:28,520
They weren't being good fiduciaries.

544
00:58:29,320 --> 00:58:33,840
And I don't want to see the same thing happen here in real estate.

545
00:58:33,840 --> 00:58:51,000
And when the dust settles on this and the movies are made, the books are written for this transition in this potential crisis, I don't want my name or any of my colleagues attached to that, that they were selling buildings in the name of a commission.

546
00:58:51,000 --> 00:58:55,420
They put a business into a bad lease for a quick fee, right?

547
00:58:55,540 --> 00:58:58,780
I don't want my name or my firm attached to any of that.

548
00:58:58,780 --> 00:59:04,480
so if i can go down as you know the the the crazy bitcoin guy that tried to warn everybody

549
00:59:04,480 --> 00:59:11,440
i can sleep good at night with that um and i'm cool with that so that's i don't know if that was

550
00:59:11,440 --> 00:59:18,100
if i totally answered your question there but that's kind of how i see it yeah well we need

551
00:59:18,100 --> 00:59:23,500
more uh more people like you in the world chris because i think uh i think there's certainly some

552
00:59:23,500 --> 00:59:30,100
some froth in terms of the uh the questionable nature of some some of the actions going on

553
00:59:30,100 --> 00:59:36,840
in the market right now but you got to be optimistic never doom we have a roadmap for

554
00:59:36,840 --> 00:59:43,720
how to begin to fix this problem and i think that's maybe another thing to touch on before

555
00:59:43,720 --> 00:59:50,240
we wrap up i think setting expectations and my impression is that this is not going to be a quick

556
00:59:50,240 --> 00:59:55,660
fix. This is something that's going to take time to integrate. And you just have to commit to a

557
00:59:55,660 --> 01:00:02,660
10 year view and start walking. I think that's exactly right. But 10 years minimum. Again,

558
01:00:02,800 --> 01:00:08,540
real estate does not it moves at a glacial pace, right, compared to markets and just everything in

559
01:00:08,540 --> 01:00:15,900
our digital world. So you don't you know, you're not behind, you're not late. This is a perfect

560
01:00:15,900 --> 01:00:23,460
time to get started and start figuring out what the best path forward is, right? I mean,

561
01:00:23,840 --> 01:00:29,380
if you're wherever you are in the industry, right? Brokers, capital markets, property management,

562
01:00:29,640 --> 01:00:39,560
contractors, architects. I mean, it's crazy how many different industries real estate touches and

563
01:00:39,560 --> 01:00:49,320
effects. So wherever you are in that industry, I challenge you to be the first one in your firm or

564
01:00:49,320 --> 01:00:57,400
the first one in your area to start talking about this, get your team, get your partners

565
01:00:57,400 --> 01:01:05,000
talking about it, be the first mover to adopt a Bitcoin standard, get it on your balance sheet,

566
01:01:05,000 --> 01:01:09,900
and and, you know, start harnessing its, you know,

567
01:01:09,936 --> 01:01:17,036
know its power and that goes for every industry for that matter actually insurance pick one yeah

568
01:01:17,036 --> 01:01:21,556
that's what we need to do as bitcoiners we need to spread it out to all these different industries

569
01:01:21,556 --> 01:01:31,476
that power our our economy yeah and again i'll reiterate it it's the solution that will enable

570
01:01:31,476 --> 01:01:34,596
you not to have to point to the fed and the treasury and say don't worry they're going to

571
01:01:34,596 --> 01:01:42,416
fix it. It's like you don't need to wait for them to manipulate interest rates or do a massive bond

572
01:01:42,416 --> 01:01:48,636
issuance, inject stimulus into the economy. You can begin to fix your own balance sheets. And

573
01:01:48,636 --> 01:01:53,596
collectively, if enough people do that, we can look up and say, hey, we actually didn't need

574
01:01:53,596 --> 01:01:58,836
their help. We could do this ourselves, which is incredibly empowering and hopefully exciting for

575
01:01:58,836 --> 01:02:04,136
many people. Because I think a lot of the market, not just real estate, just the American economy,

576
01:02:04,596 --> 01:02:10,976
It's almost held hostage to the whims of the Fed and the Treasury more and more these days.

577
01:02:12,636 --> 01:02:25,596
Yeah. And I mean, as much as much grief as as social media gets and, you know, the various, you know, negative side effects of social media, you know, there's been some some positive things.

578
01:02:25,596 --> 01:02:36,496
And that's flat out getting the, you know, getting the education, getting the knowledge, you know, getting the other side of the story out there and, you know, letting people make their own decisions.

579
01:02:36,496 --> 01:02:44,076
Right. I mean, I I feel like, you know, people talking about macroeconomics these days and now they're dropping the buzzword, you know, debasement trade.

580
01:02:44,076 --> 01:02:48,636
I mean, these are from people that, you know, they've, you know, never before.

581
01:02:49,196 --> 01:03:06,936
Are they you know interested in these topics or you know exploring these particular areas So again I think that the positive side of decentralized communications and media is how many people were able to access

582
01:03:07,976 --> 01:03:13,676
And telling them the other side of why you may not need a Federal Reserve is part of that.

583
01:03:14,676 --> 01:03:14,696
Yeah.

584
01:03:15,276 --> 01:03:17,656
There's a lot of noise out there, but there's also a ton of signal.

585
01:03:17,656 --> 01:03:19,856
You just need to know how to find it.

586
01:03:19,916 --> 01:03:28,436
And hopefully now you found Chris and you can continue to follow him on his journey to implement Bitcoin into the commercial real estate market.

587
01:03:28,596 --> 01:03:31,336
So, Chris, really love this conversation.

588
01:03:31,416 --> 01:03:35,676
We'll have to do it again at some point, maybe at the beginning, first quarter of next year.

589
01:03:36,556 --> 01:03:44,816
And where can anybody who is so curious find out more about what you're up to get access to the content you've been making?

590
01:03:46,376 --> 01:03:47,636
Yeah, thanks for having me.

591
01:03:47,656 --> 01:03:48,676
By the way, this was awesome.

592
01:03:48,676 --> 01:03:53,896
And I look forward to keeping you and your listeners up to speed on the commercial real

593
01:03:53,896 --> 01:03:54,596
estate markets.

594
01:03:55,296 --> 01:03:56,536
You can find me on Twitter.

595
01:03:57,536 --> 01:04:01,516
I do have a Noster account, but I'm still trying to figure it out.

596
01:04:02,796 --> 01:04:04,656
There's a little bit of a learning curve.

597
01:04:04,756 --> 01:04:08,916
I haven't gotten over on that one, but Twitter is the primary.

598
01:04:09,376 --> 01:04:13,196
I post the videos on YouTube as well, but Twitter is the main source.

599
01:04:13,196 --> 01:04:15,876
and once you get to my Twitter you can

600
01:04:15,876 --> 01:04:17,936
find all my other

601
01:04:17,936 --> 01:04:21,136
other channels what have you

602
01:04:21,136 --> 01:04:23,616
we will link to that

603
01:04:23,616 --> 01:04:25,516
in the show notes I hope you have

604
01:04:25,516 --> 01:04:27,676
an incredible Tuesday

605
01:04:27,676 --> 01:04:29,116
on the west coast Chris and

606
01:04:29,116 --> 01:04:31,676
yeah we'll do this again at some point next year

607
01:04:31,676 --> 01:04:33,756
sounds good Marty thanks again

608
01:04:33,756 --> 01:04:35,256
for having me this was awesome

609
01:04:35,256 --> 01:04:37,036
peace and love freaks