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You've had a dynamic where money has become freer than free.

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You talk about a Fed just gone nuts.

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All the central banks going nuts.

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So it's all acting like safe haven.

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I believe that in a world where central bankers are tripping over themselves to devalue their currency,

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Bitcoin wins.

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In the world of fiat currencies, Bitcoin is the victor.

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I mean, that's part of the bull case for Bitcoin.

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If you're not paying attention, you probably should be.

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Connor Brown, you got me to wear slacks and penny loafers, put on a nice sweater, button

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down.

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Welcome to Washington, Marty.

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It's good to have you.

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It's good to be here.

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Here we're looks maxing.

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You've got to be looks maxing.

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That's a key point here in D.C.

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Everyone is focused on appearance, whether you like it or not.

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So you've got to look the part.

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You've got to play the game a bit.

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And you did a great job.

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I gotta say the loafers look great. The socks are good. This is good. Yeah. I did go to a prep

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school. So yeah, I have it deep ingrained in my, in my memory, my DNA now. Yeah. You fit right in.

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Yeah. I would have never suspected, but it's been six, almost six and a half years since you were

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last on the show. You're on episode 87 in July of 2019. I think we're 600 episodes past that now

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at this point, which is crazy to think.

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Yeah, it is crazy.

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Freaks, I missed you.

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It's been good.

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It's been a long time.

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It's crazy to think all these years later,

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here we are, still the same people.

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Man, the world has changed so much.

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But Bitcoin's still what we're focused on.

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Yeah.

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I think that's important.

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The price when you first came on

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was $11,500, right around there.

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We're currently dumping, as we speak,

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to around $105,000.

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people are scared. It's funny. It's funny to imagine if

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ourselves then could see this and we'd be like, oh yeah,

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we're down. It's down only over 100k now.

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But I mean, thinking of how much has changed since

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then, obviously we've had COVID, MicroStrategy

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went on their sort of strategy of putting Bitcoin on their

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corporate treasury. Bitcoin has entered the zeitgeist. It is a

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a brand name in homes around the world.

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And just last night we were talking over coffee.

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Before we came over here, Donald Trump was on 60 Minutes

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saying that this is a race, Bitcoin and crypto

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is a race that we need to win.

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And just starting there, how profound do you think that is

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that we're at this point right now?

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Well, it's crazy because when we had recorded the podcast

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back in, what, 2019, he had just put out the tweet

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that said something like, I don't like Bitcoin. I don't trust it. It's not nearly as good as the

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dollar. And to think in just a few short years, how far he's come to say, not only is this something

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that is positive, but it's something that America has to be the leader in. It would be crazy to

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tell us that in the past and be like, oh yeah, and only just, let's say five years,

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he's going to have completely shifted his view on it and is actually going to be seeing this as a

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competitive aspect of staying as the world leader in technology so yeah it is it is good but i don't

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think that we've necessarily won i don't think that um our i i don't think that america is quite

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there yet and i think there's still a lot more that we can do to solidify our position and um

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I think that is what we're working on every day here in D.C.

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is that we are off to a great start.

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We've shifted from Bitcoin being seen as sort of a nuisance by both parties.

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And suddenly more and more people are understanding how important this is.

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But there's still a lot of education that has to happen.

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Well, for anybody listening who may not be aware of you, Connor,

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and the work that you've been doing, particularly on the Hill,

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over the last four, five years.

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If there's anybody who can say

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what was just said with confidence, it is you.

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And I think this is a good opportunity

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to basically let the audience know

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what you've been up to,

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what you were doing under Senator Lummis,

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the work that was going on behind the scenes

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as it pertains to the strategic Bitcoin Reserve

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and the Bitcoin Act.

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What have you seen, sir?

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Yeah, well, freaks, I've missed you.

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It's been a long time.

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I have not completely left the Bitcoin scene.

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I've just been sort of, you know, working behind the scenes a bit.

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But yeah, I think to sort of go over a quick timeline of where I've been, I ended up working

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for Center Lummis as her Bitcoin advisor and saw a lot firsthand of how Washington thinks

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about Bitcoin, what the state of Bitcoin policy is.

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and I guess what ultimately led me there is I was working in the private sector after a few years

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after I graduated law school I worked for a few years at different corporate law firms

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and I was working at a firm in New York I tried to get them interested in Bitcoin treasury companies

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back in 2020 actually hilariously Michael Saylor had just announced his first Bitcoin acquisition

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and tried to get him to pitch Bitcoin to our partnership at the law firm.

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He came and spoke and they didn't take it seriously.

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So, you know, that was maybe a bit too early.

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Then I worked at another firm here in D.C. on sort of fintech and blockchain practice

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and saw firsthand the attacks by the SEC on different companies.

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and I was working on enforcement actions.

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But ultimately, I still really cared about Bitcoin.

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And I had been in touch with Senator Lummis' staff

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for a few years,

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and a spot opened up to be her Bitcoin and AI advisor.

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And I was going back and forth,

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but decided that at the time,

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there were still a lot of attacks on Bitcoin.

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This was late 23, early 24.

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And it seemed very obvious that we needed someone to really defend Bitcoin, to bring knowledge to the hill.

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And Senator Lummis was really one of the only people that was talking about this.

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And I decided to go see what it was like.

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And it was just the most fascinating experience of my life, truly.

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It changed how I view myself and how important I see the political system now.

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And it was just a fantastic experience.

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But yeah, so that started in 24 and learned a lot through that about how the Hill works,

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how you can take an idea and really with just a good idea, you can have incredible amounts

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of change.

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So, yeah, it's been a crazy past five years.

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Let's dive into this. How was the sausage made?

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What was your expectation going in?

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How was the sausage made?

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I actually didn't know what to expect going in.

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So I'd met Senator Lummis one time in passing at just like a conference, basically.

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And I had been told, you know, she's a great Bitcoiner, you've got to meet her,

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and decided to take the job without really knowing what to expect.

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I walk in the first day.

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I'm walking through the office.

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I'm seeing Bitcoin signs on some desks.

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I'm like, okay, this is good.

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This is good.

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And then I noticed everyone has a copy of Gradually Then Suddenly sitting on their desk.

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And there were copies of the Bitcoin standard.

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And then I was like, okay, this is real.

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This is the real deal.

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and got to know her. And sure enough, you know, we hit it off pretty quickly because

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she really is a Bitcoin. She really is, you know, someone who's read all the same things we've read.

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She's read the same Parker Lewis books and listened to a lot of the same content. And so

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I didn't know what to expect, but I came into an environment that was just the perfect place for me.

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And it was also a way for me to start to educate others on the Hill about Bitcoin because our office was understanding Bitcoin, but none of the other offices, you know, they didn't really understand Bitcoin deeply.

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So it was a great opportunity to just go around and start teaching people and spreading the good word about Bitcoin.

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What's that process like?

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What's it like saying, hey, we're Senator Lummis, her office, we're the Bitcoin experts.

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Is it a lot of outreach or people coming to you?

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What is that like?

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It's very self-driven.

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And a lot of people might not even know this.

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It's sort of a black box how the legislative system works.

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So to give you sort of a rough sense of it, each office has different functions.

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So you have the communications team, you have the scheduling team, you have the legislative team.

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And I was part of the legislative team.

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And each office has basically, let's say, between, depending on the size of the office,

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a Senate versus House office, between five to ten people, sometimes more,

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that are working on legislative issues.

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And each member has a staffer who's responsible for, let's say, financial services

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or Bitcoin and digital assets.

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And so my job was to reach out to all of the staffers in the other offices.

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I was on the legislative team and I was responsible for reaching out and saying,

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hey, you are Senator Cruz's staffer, you know, or you're Senator Blackburn's staffer.

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Hey, let's talk about Bitcoin.

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And going out and just figuring out who's interested in this and who cares about it.

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And also explaining to people, you know, Bitcoin touches many policy areas in ways people don't understand or don't anticipate.

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And so spreading, you know, the good word about Bitcoin and explaining here's what Bitcoin is.

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Bitcoin 101 fundamentals, how the network works, why it's trustworthy.

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You know, it's a lot of just self-motivated getting to know people and teaching them about Bitcoin.

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And a lot of people are very interested, but they've heard a lot about it.

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It's talked a lot about in politics, but they've never had someone who can really explain it to them in a way that makes sense to them.

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So it's a lot of meeting people where they're at and just sort of hitting the pavement and knocking on doors.

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Considering the scope of all the policy decisions that are being made in this city, not only as it pertains to Bitcoin, healthcare, energy, whatever it may be,

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How hard is it to get an individual staff or to focus on something very specific like Bitcoin?

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It depends on how you pitch it.

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I mean, I found that people were actually really receptive, surprisingly receptive.

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I had no clue what it was going to be like going in, how close off people would be.

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But the reality is that the Hill is a very social place and everyone is wanting to get to know everyone.

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and for me it was sort of like wow it's it's rare for someone to come from outside the hill

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and that really cares about a specific policy issue and to explain why it's important so i was

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surprised at how receptive people were i mean you have to be creative right so we had bitcoin pizza

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day we had bitcoin and bagels we had all sorts of different you know whenever there's just some

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sort of random event we could come up with that's bitcoin related we would do it but i found that

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people were actually very receptive. And that comes down to meeting people where they're at

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and explaining to them in a way that is palatable to them. But across the political spectrum,

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it was not a partisan thing. And I don't think that Bitcoin is a partisan thing.

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Across the aisle, you can think about what Bitcoin represents and what they care about

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and explain how powerful a tool Bitcoin is. And I think people were actually hungry for that. It

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was surprising. But yeah, it was, I think, made a lot of very positive inroads to people who

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otherwise probably would not have thought about this, wouldn't have been on the radar.

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Well, there's been an obvious evolution in a positive sense in terms of the posturing from

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DC towards Bitcoin, particularly on the right, but even on the left. You've got

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competitors like Ro Khanna, Richie Torres, and many others who understand that this is something

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that they should care about and lean into.

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What, in your observation, were some of the events or framings

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of how you were pitching Bitcoin that made people wake up and say,

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hey, this is something we need to care about, focus on?

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Yeah, I think that focusing on Bitcoin, not in a partisan sense,

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but just in a broad historical sense, that fundamentally this is a historical event

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that we've seen play out many times in the past,

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That Bitcoin, like other monetary paradigm shifts, it simply is better money.

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It simply is better savings technology.

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And just like we've seen play out, whether it be the shift from seashells and cowry beads or salt to precious metals, from silver to gold, that the uptake of Bitcoin is just another technological shift.

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and that we should be thinking about how we can capitalize on that,

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just like America was the home of the internet

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and all the benefits that brought.

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And talking about it in these broad historical paradigm shift ways

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rather than it's on this incremental partisan issue,

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going to win points or lose points.

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I think that is what people are very receptive to.

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And ultimately, I think the concept of Bitcoin's unique circumstances,

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It came out of the financial crisis.

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No one is happy with how the financial crisis was handled.

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I don't think there's anyone that thought, you know what, they did a good job, that the

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system was set up right.

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I mean, you might have a different story for why it happened or how it was solved, but

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no one came away from that thinking, yeah, that was a good thing that happened.

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And so having Bitcoin as something that came out of that environment and that is something

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that can be a savings tool for anyone, for the individual, for the corporation, and even for the

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state, I think is something that people are very receptive to. And they just haven't thought about

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Bitcoin like that. I think a lot of it is, you know, there's not even, for some people,

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an understanding between Bitcoin and the long tail of crypto schemes that we seen blow up You know we seen they know and are constantly reading articles about different rug pulls or you know a lot of them knew Sam Bankman freed before FTX fell apart And so

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delineating Bitcoin from the unsavory parts of the crypto ecosystem is also very important.

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And once you peel that back, then I think that you can really explain Bitcoin in terms that is,

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interesting to people.

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That's been the biggest uphill battle

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of the last three years, specifically post

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the X blow up.

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We've made a concerted effort at TFTC

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and I think many others in the industry

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to drive that demarcation.

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There's Bitcoin and then there's crypto.

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Going back to the scope of

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what people

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have to focus on here in the Hill,

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it makes me wonder

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how easy or hard

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is it to make that

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delineation clear and how many people are just throwing the baby out with the bathwater because

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they don't understand that you shouldn't conflate FTX blow up with the Bitcoin protocol itself.

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Yeah, I would say it is easier than you would expect. The people on the Hill are people that

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care about policy. They care about America's future. They care about getting things right.

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They are often there because they are interested in policy. And so you have someone who is typically

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much more engaged than your average person. You know, talking to someone about Bitcoin,

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that's just a random friend. They might just say, you know, I'm not really sure how much I want to

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think about this. But the people on the Hill genuinely do want to think about what good policy

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is, what the future looks like. So you have an audience that's interested, and then it just

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becomes a numbers game. At the end of the day, there just aren't that many Bitcoiners on the Hill,

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truly. And there are so many staff that are responsible for understanding Bitcoin policy

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and understanding what the right and wrong answers are. And so it becomes a numbers game pretty

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quickly is at the end of the day, there's only so many people you can meet with individually.

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And so I think that was really the bottleneck for the daily. It was just how much time you have to

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explain Bitcoin to people and meet people where they're at.

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Speaking to this lack of, for lack of a better term, Bitcoin talent on the Hill that can be

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here to educate staffers and individual representatives and senators about this.

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How much do you think that is driven by the historical aversion of the wider Bitcoin

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community towards government specifically? So this is something that's very common,

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I think. And I'm very sympathetic to it. You know, I've read all the cypherpunk readings that a lot

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of us have, right? I've listened to my 10,000 hours of Bitcoin podcast. I think there is a

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common thread in the Bitcoin community that is basically the state exists, but we want to

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avoid it at all costs. And I'm very sympathetic to that. I think privacy is extremely important

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that limiting the state's power over individuals, these are important considerations.

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But I don't think that the solution is let's stop engaging with the state altogether.

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Because at the end of the day, the state does have a monopoly on violence.

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The state does have the ability to do all sorts of things to Bitcoiners here in the U.S.

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and I think that it is on us to engage with the state and explain that Bitcoin is not adverse to

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its interest but is actually an important tool that everyone should be using, that individuals

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should be using. I mean this is just like the internet, right? If the state perceived the

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internet as a threat and said you know what we're going to crack down on it, freedom of expression

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in the digital age is a bad thing,

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then we'd be in a very different country.

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And it took smart policymakers

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to recognize the value the internet had.

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Well, and there was an attack on the internet, right?

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Then they would have put chips in the back of the computers

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and make sure we were tracking everybody,

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but that ultimately got stomped out

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and the free and open internet was able to thrive.

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Exactly.

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I mean, it took smart cypherpunks

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to really make the case that code is free speech,

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that encryption is not a weapon.

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and that it is good for a free and open society to have these technologies.

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And I think that we are in a similar position with Bitcoin,

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which is we need to take the responsibility on ourselves to educate the state

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and to explain why, like many technologies in America's past,

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that it is on us to embrace this technology first.

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It is an American technology fundamentally of private property rights,

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of ownership, of freedom of expression and transaction. And that if we don't really take

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up the mantle and educate the state, then I do worry where that could go. And I think that that

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is just a testament to how powerful really working through policy can be. In 2024, in early 2024,

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there was legislation that had multiple different co-sponsors about really regulating the node layer of the network.

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There was attempts to have these reports on mining energy consumption,

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which could have led to all sorts of different regulations down the line.

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And we've sort of went past that paradigm, at least for now, of trying to clamp down on Bitcoin.

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but I don't think it is something that we can take lightly.

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And it's something we have to really be on guard for

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because Bitcoin is going to continue to mature,

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but the state is still going to be there.

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It's still going to exist.

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And it's important that we navigate that carefully.

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It's like our good friend Bitstein said,

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the only winning move is to play.

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And I think this is something we've been having ongoing discussion

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over the last three days.

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We had a nice catch-up call on Saturday afternoon in preparation for this and really anchoring this back to the historical version of Bitcoiners who, I mean, Bitcoin is a sly roundabout way to take control of money out of the hands of the state.

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It does not, but with that being said, it does not mean that the state is not going to exist.

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And I think one thing that's really stuck out to me based off of our conversations since Saturday is incentive alignment and how do we make it so we educate the state, they implement the correct policy, and then you have sort of an aversion to what has existed for the last five decades, which is the state is working in an incentive framework that aligns with citizens broadly across the spectrum.

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because their incentive is to make sure that Bitcoin succeeds too.

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Totally. And this is the justification behind the SBR.

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This is why a strategic Bitcoin reserve, this is one of the main reasons,

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which is one of the easiest and most straightforward ways

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to align the interest of Bitcoiners and the U.S. government

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is to have the U.S. own some Bitcoin.

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And that seems like a pretty straightforward way to remove or at least start to have the state on the same terms of individual Bitcoiners and see Bitcoin as a tool that individuals and states can use.

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So that was actually part of it.

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I know there's a lot of people that love to throw bombs on X and say, look, this is a number go up play or something like that.

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But the reason that we put that out there, I think, was really because we saw this as an important way to avoid what happened with gold, avoid what happened with the Gold Reserve Act of 1934.

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and sort of what we've seen in historical terms

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of whenever there is a new monetary standard

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and the state finds itself without enough of it,

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then it just seizes what the private individuals have.

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And I think that's a very, very important historical takeaway

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is that the terms change,

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but the incentives are structurally the same.

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And so we need to recognize that and think about ways to align the interest of America and Bitcoin for the betterment of both Bitcoiners and Americans generally.

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It is in America's interest to get there first.

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So that was actually, I think, one of the driving reasons behind it is thinking about what it can offer the United States and what it can also do in terms of helping Bitcoiners.

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Can you walk us through the history of the Bitcoin Act, the SBR?

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Yeah.

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What was that journey like?

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Obviously, it came out of Senator Lummis' office.

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You were working on a legislative team there,

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so I'm sure you had your hands pretty immersed in that process.

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What was it like up until you recently left Senator Lummis' office

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to join the Bitcoin Policy Institute as the head of strategy?

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We'll get to that, but let's focus on the SBR first.

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Yeah, the history of the SBR.

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such a privilege to have been sitting in the room. I always wanted to be in the room where

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it happened. And sure enough, I was in the room when it happened. It was crazy.

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So I guess the condensed version of the story is roughly that at the time in 2024, like I said,

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the sentiment around Bitcoin was very reactive. From a policymaking perspective, we were trying

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to think, how do we fight off proposed attacks on the Bitcoin network? And we hear, you know,

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through the grapevine, essentially, that there are some new policy suggestions being made,

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that potentially President Trump, you know, then candidate Trump was considering a strategic reserve.

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and it was funny because sort of separate from that we had been talking about bitcoin in our

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office and senator lummis many people don't know this was actually treasurer of wyoming and during

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her tenure as treasurer she diversified wyoming's balance sheet so wyoming has a sovereign wealth

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fund one of the only states to have one and she by diversifying the balance sheet really dramatically

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improved Wyoming's financial outlook and allowed them to not even have a state income tax because

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of good financial management. And so that was sort of an idea that we had been kicking around,

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which was if Bitcoin can be this potential similar scenario for America, where Senator

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Lummis saw firsthand what being smart and forward thinking and finances can do for a state

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What does that mean at the national level?

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And so she said,

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Connor, can you look into this?

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Can you guys think about what this would look like

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to have a Fort Satoshi?

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And at the same time,

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we hear that President Trump

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might be considering something similar.

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But we weren't sure how credible that was.

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And they were looking at it

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and we knew that he was going to speak

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at the Bitcoin conference.

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And so, you know, what we were trying to do was think about if this is going to be a policy suggestion and we're Bitcoiners and we understand the principles that are important to the network and how to do this correctly.

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What does good policy look like on this?

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You can do it in good ways or bad ways.

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We wanted to really provide a Bitcoiner forward version of what a Bitcoin reserve could look like if we were to have a parallel to Fort Knox.

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So it was a wild time.

396
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And we were super excited leading up to the conference.

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and um we until the very moment that president trump went on stage we weren't sure if he was

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going to talk about this support this um and it was just wild being backstage got escorted in by

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Secret Service to the front row of the conference.

400
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Me and people from my team were sitting in the audience, not sure what's going to happen.

401
00:30:38,170 --> 00:30:41,170
We know that Cynthia is going to announce the bill right after.

402
00:30:41,770 --> 00:30:44,290
And so we're just hoping, fingers crossed.

403
00:30:45,210 --> 00:30:50,610
And sure enough, he says that America needs a national Bitcoin stockpile.

404
00:30:51,050 --> 00:30:53,930
And we're like, oh my gosh, here it is.

405
00:30:53,930 --> 00:31:02,570
The moment has arrived that we have really, hopefully, shifted from a paradigm of seeing

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00:31:02,570 --> 00:31:18,000
Bitcoin as a nuisance to seeing Bitcoin as a tool to something that is a positive for America and Americans to embrace And then right after that Senator Lummis goes and announces the bill publicly

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And we're sitting there in the crowd.

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And it was just really one of the highlights of my time in the Senate of seeing that moment

409
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:35,300
happen and then seeing the domino effect, seeing states take this up, countries around

410
00:31:35,300 --> 00:31:36,760
the world start considering this.

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00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:42,020
legislation is within a few months proposed all over the world in these different legislative

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00:31:42,020 --> 00:31:52,880
bodies. It was crazy to see in real time the impact of just a good idea. And it was incredible

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00:31:52,880 --> 00:32:00,300
that Senator Lummis was really willing to go there and say, you know what, this is what I

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00:32:00,300 --> 00:32:07,620
you truly believe. And, uh, you know, she was okay with being the first and the only one to say,

415
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:12,700
this is a good idea in the beginning. Um, and then, you know, seeing how that sort of matured

416
00:32:12,700 --> 00:32:18,480
over time has been really cool. It's been incredibly cool. I forget I had Cynthia on

417
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:25,280
the shows during COVID had to be 2020, 2021. And that was when she first came out publicly as,

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00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:28,400
as a Bitcoin senator and was really championing it

419
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,640
and to see how far it's come since then is,

420
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:34,120
I think people take for granted, again,

421
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:37,260
going back to the point that we're dumping to $105,000,

422
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:40,880
whether it's where price is at any given point in time

423
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:44,680
or where Bitcoin sits in the zeitgeist.

424
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:50,080
I think people get caught up in the day-to-day price movements,

425
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:51,500
headlines, whatever it may be,

426
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:53,580
and really forget to take a step back

427
00:32:53,580 --> 00:32:59,700
can appreciate how far we've come both from a market structure liquidity profile perspective

428
00:32:59,700 --> 00:33:05,680
and a policy public perception of bitcoin perspective it's changed wildly since you

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00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:11,320
were last on but you mentioned one thing you're explaining sort of the story of the sbr and it's

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00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:18,380
that we want to craft a bill that really respects individual rights and is a bill that bitcoiners

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00:33:18,380 --> 00:33:24,580
would be proud of. And so in your mind, what are a few of the key points that need to be executed

432
00:33:24,580 --> 00:33:29,940
to make sure that the SBR is done right? Yeah, great question. It's funny because

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we got a lot of pushback from people saying, is this going to give the government control of

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00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:43,960
Bitcoin? Is this going to, in some ways, create a bad set of incentives? And our goal really was,

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00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:49,920
let's take the lessons learned from when the government passed the Gold Reserve Act and

436
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:54,400
seized everyone's gold. You know, you had the Gold Reserve Act, you had Executive Order 6102.

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What does the antithesis of that look like? What does getting it right ahead of time look like

438
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so that that is never necessary? So that was really at the heart of what we were thinking

439
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:12,280
when we're drafting this of how do we set up the right set of incentives? And how do we set up the

440
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:20,280
right set of incentives for Bitcoin, the network. So, you know, obviously the first thing is we're

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looking to acquire Bitcoin. And we also are very cognizant of how do we make sure that while we're

442
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:33,060
using Bitcoin as a tool, you know, we think it's prudent for the U.S. government to use Bitcoin as

443
00:34:33,060 --> 00:34:39,620
the savings technology to prepare for the age of Bitcoin that is to come. At the same time,

444
00:34:39,620 --> 00:34:46,320
we want to protect the network and ensure that that does not create a perverse set of incentives

445
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:52,700
for network development and that it doesn't allow the U.S. government to put their thumb on the scale.

446
00:34:53,540 --> 00:34:59,180
And I've seen a lot of smart Bitcoiners, people that I've listened to on plenty of podcasts,

447
00:34:59,180 --> 00:35:02,940
you know, read a bunch of their articles. They're critical of the SBR, actually.

448
00:35:04,580 --> 00:35:08,720
And for various different reasons. But one that I've heard a lot is we don't want the government

449
00:35:08,720 --> 00:35:15,800
involved with this. And I understand that conceptually. I understand that from a philosophical

450
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:21,340
point of view. But I do think that the way we drafted it, we really tried to think through

451
00:35:21,340 --> 00:35:26,020
how could this create a perverse set of incentives and how do we make sure that doesn't happen?

452
00:35:26,860 --> 00:35:34,320
So one example is if America is acquiring a large sum of Bitcoin, then it might not have control

453
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:40,560
over the network development, but it would be a large market participant. And we know that network

454
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:47,560
forks are sometimes based on how the market perceives one side of the fork or the other.

455
00:35:47,660 --> 00:35:56,240
We learned from the block wars, lots of lessons to be learned there, but part of it is people can

456
00:35:56,240 --> 00:36:02,420
sort of signal to the market what they believe and what they think the right fork is just by

457
00:36:02,420 --> 00:36:06,020
selling one fork and buying the other or vice versa.

458
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:10,600
And so we wanted to set the incentives in place

459
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:14,380
so that the U.S. government does not get involved in any sort of network

460
00:36:14,380 --> 00:36:18,740
discussion. So that was one of the key provisions is

461
00:36:18,740 --> 00:36:21,960
we wanted to hodl all forks. Basically say

462
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:26,640
if the network does fork and there are multiple coins that come out of it

463
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:30,760
you can't express an opinion one way or the other. You can't

464
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:36,560
sell one and buy the other, because that would be a way to actually influence the network.

465
00:36:36,940 --> 00:36:42,300
Even if they're not on GitHub or they're not actually proposing software updates,

466
00:36:42,300 --> 00:36:46,080
just by expressing a preference could be significant. So we wanted to cut that off.

467
00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:53,660
We also put in the bottom of it a protection for self-custody and wanted to clarify that

468
00:36:53,660 --> 00:36:59,380
while we think it's prudent for America to acquire Bitcoin, that does not mean that you

469
00:36:59,380 --> 00:37:05,460
should go and take Bitcoiners, Bitcoin. That would be the wrong way to go about this. So we wanted to

470
00:37:05,460 --> 00:37:12,760
put that protection in there as well. And then we also had some transparency requirements that

471
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:18,960
I think are very important. We've seen that the gold in Fort Knox is notoriously difficult to audit.

472
00:37:19,900 --> 00:37:24,420
The last I heard is that Elon Musk said we need to audit it. And then crickets.

473
00:37:24,660 --> 00:37:26,480
It's been nine months and nothing's happened.

474
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:46,220
Don't know where that went. Someone should look into that. But yeah, so that is, that's ultimately where we landed is we wanted to put in strong protections so that the US government can be onboarded as a user, but it does not impact the network operation.

475
00:37:46,220 --> 00:37:47,460
What's up, freaks?

476
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:49,780
Bitcoin's market cycles tend to follow the same old pattern.

477
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:51,540
Parabolic spikes, brutal crashes.

478
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:53,500
This time is measurably different.

479
00:37:53,820 --> 00:38:00,440
The Bitcoin check from Unchained and CheckOnChain shows how the 2023 to 2025 cycle has permanently reshaped Bitcoin's market structure.

480
00:38:00,740 --> 00:38:08,580
Inside, you'll find why volatility has collapsed, why ETFs have anchored new five- and six-figure price floors, and why long-term hodlers remain firmly in control.

481
00:38:08,780 --> 00:38:12,060
Download now, and you'll also get access to the online event featuring James Check.

482
00:38:12,340 --> 00:38:13,860
Bitcoin has crossed the Rubicon.

483
00:38:13,860 --> 00:38:18,800
Get the report at unchained.com slash tftc. That's unchained.com slash tftc.

484
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:22,600
Sufferings, healthcare open enrollment has started. It will roll through the end of January.

485
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:26,460
Opt out of traditional health insurance, which doesn't care about you. It's impersonal. It's

486
00:38:26,460 --> 00:38:30,080
expensive. They deny an increasing amount of claims. Premiums are going up. You don't have

487
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:33,900
to live this way. You can opt out. I opted out four years ago and joined CrowdHealth. I've been

488
00:38:33,900 --> 00:38:37,180
a CrowdHealth member, a very happy CrowdHealth member for four years. I've had two children,

489
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:41,500
a couple of health events in that time period, and CrowdHealth has been there. You pay a monthly fee,

490
00:38:41,500 --> 00:38:45,660
you contribute to the crowd. We were paying $1,800 on Cobra as a family of three. Now we're

491
00:38:45,660 --> 00:38:51,340
paying around $900 a month as a family of five. And that's with CrowdHealth and direct primary care.

492
00:38:51,620 --> 00:38:55,360
You can opt out of health insurance. Go to joincrowdhealth.com slash TFTC. You're going to

493
00:38:55,360 --> 00:39:00,380
get $99 a month for the first three months if you use the code TFTC. Joincrowdhealth.com slash TFTC.

494
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:07,040
And let's go further into the importance of not only doing this, but getting it right.

495
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:09,020
and we were just having coffee

496
00:39:09,020 --> 00:39:12,260
and discussing the concept of Bitcoin

497
00:39:12,260 --> 00:39:14,440
helping to manufacture the soft landing

498
00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:17,800
that was a big meme in 2022, 2023, 2024

499
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:22,260
as the Fed was unwinding its accommodative policy

500
00:39:22,260 --> 00:39:24,200
post-COVID and beginning to tighten

501
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:27,920
and Janet Yellen was pounding the front end

502
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:29,160
of the yield curve.

503
00:39:29,540 --> 00:39:35,180
I think knowing you and knowing many other Bitcoiners

504
00:39:35,180 --> 00:39:37,940
and how they think, it seems like the government

505
00:39:37,940 --> 00:39:40,620
with the Treasury Department and the Federal Reserve

506
00:39:40,620 --> 00:39:43,840
working together or independently, it doesn't really matter,

507
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:45,880
independent of each other,

508
00:39:46,700 --> 00:39:50,240
you're not going to fix the structural issues

509
00:39:50,240 --> 00:39:54,480
that exist in the monetary and financial system

510
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:58,120
depending on the same tools, policy tools specifically,

511
00:39:58,420 --> 00:40:01,580
that got us into the problem in the first place.

512
00:40:01,580 --> 00:40:13,660
I think really framing Bitcoin as a free market solution and tool that could be used to actually manufacture a soft landing over a multi-decade time horizon.

513
00:40:13,780 --> 00:40:23,580
That's another thing I think we really need to hammer from the Bitcoin perspective when we're interfacing with Capitol Hill is like, hey, this isn't a quick fix solution.

514
00:40:23,580 --> 00:40:29,460
solution, we need to begin strategically, methodically, and intentionally implementing

515
00:40:29,460 --> 00:40:34,720
Bitcoin into what we do at the national level, as well as at the individual and business level.

516
00:40:35,060 --> 00:40:41,380
But it's going to take some time. And so really framing Bitcoin as this tool that can be used to

517
00:40:41,380 --> 00:40:47,420
set up the United States, both at the government level, the business layer, and the individual

518
00:40:47,420 --> 00:40:52,820
layer to succeed as we continue to transition into the digital age. Yeah, I think that's where

519
00:40:52,820 --> 00:40:59,020
we're at at a national level. And this has been another criticism of the concept of a Bitcoin

520
00:40:59,020 --> 00:41:05,280
reserve, which is, oh, we're going to revalue our gold and we're going to use that revaluation to

521
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:11,380
acquire more Bitcoin. Is that aligned with the Bitcoin ethos of limited government, of taking

522
00:41:11,380 --> 00:41:19,520
the power of money printing away from the state? I think fundamentally, the situation is such that

523
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:27,100
drastic times call for drastic measures, right? And every smart person that I know, that I respect

524
00:41:27,100 --> 00:41:31,900
in their forecast, whether it be Lynn Alden, who's saying nothing stops this train,

525
00:41:31,900 --> 00:41:35,820
whether it be Ray Dalio, who's saying we're at the end of a long-term debt cycle.

526
00:41:36,900 --> 00:41:41,440
There's plenty of different analysts that are all saying the same thing. And it's the same thing that

527
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:48,820
I saw working on the Hill, which is we are locked into a structural set of problems that we will not

528
00:41:48,820 --> 00:41:55,340
be able to diffuse using standard measures. Right now, the incentives are such that

529
00:41:55,340 --> 00:42:03,400
given the time horizon of members, they're on short cycles. And these problems of increasing

530
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:12,720
spending are on very long time horizons that we need to think outside the box on what is a really

531
00:42:12,720 --> 00:42:18,340
radical solution to this. And I think there's been lots of great modeling that shows

532
00:42:18,340 --> 00:42:27,700
one of the only ways to diffuse this bomb, one of the only ways to truly solve this is you take

533
00:42:27,700 --> 00:42:34,620
an outsized bet on an emerging paradigm, right? This is a tale that America has seen over and over

534
00:42:34,620 --> 00:42:40,160
with either the Louisiana Purchase or the acquisition of California or the acquisition

535
00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:48,680
of Alaska. And this is a time, a tale as old as time, that America is the type of country

536
00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:53,940
that sees the future before it happens, recognizes resources that will be important,

537
00:42:54,260 --> 00:42:59,400
and gets a huge windfall off of them. And the reality is that our finances,

538
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:05,700
our structural set of incentives have us in a bad position, a really bad position.

539
00:43:05,700 --> 00:43:12,000
and there is not an obvious solution except for Bitcoin.

540
00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:17,880
Bitcoin is literally the only thing that I can think of that can diffuse this bomb.

541
00:43:18,580 --> 00:43:21,520
Now, maybe artificial intelligence will have an impact unclear,

542
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:29,640
but Bitcoin is, I believe, through just the economic physics of it,

543
00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:34,360
going to continue to out-compete other stores of value, other capital assets,

544
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:38,340
and will obsolete many other types of money.

545
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:43,460
And in that process, it will become this new global store of value.

546
00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:48,520
And one way America can get out of this is by getting there first.

547
00:43:49,620 --> 00:43:57,460
And so I think that that is the decision that we ultimately landed on is we can't just do nothing.

548
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:02,120
If we do nothing and we just hope that someone down the line is going to fix it,

549
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:04,140
then the problem is going to continue to compound.

550
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:06,860
and no one is going to actually have a solution.

551
00:44:08,260 --> 00:44:11,460
And this is something that's been talked about a lot,

552
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:14,580
but I think that that's an important part of the Bitcoin conversation

553
00:44:14,580 --> 00:44:17,480
is we need to do it sooner rather than later.

554
00:44:18,220 --> 00:44:22,540
When we proposed the Bitcoin reserve, the price was, what, $50,000?

555
00:44:23,300 --> 00:44:25,640
It's gotten twice as expensive in a couple of months.

556
00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:29,380
So time is of the essence here.

557
00:44:29,380 --> 00:44:33,740
and I think it's really

558
00:44:33,740 --> 00:44:37,360
the only option we have on the table

559
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:41,780
is to recognize this and think about how we start incorporating it

560
00:44:41,780 --> 00:44:46,380
as a release valve for a lot of the problems

561
00:44:46,380 --> 00:44:48,900
and mismanagement that both sides of the aisle

562
00:44:48,900 --> 00:44:53,720
this is not a partisan thing, this is mismanagement that has happened

563
00:44:53,720 --> 00:44:58,120
just structurally since 1971

564
00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:04,420
right yeah and it's as an american too to be incredibly encouraging especially as we approach

565
00:45:04,420 --> 00:45:10,400
the 250th birthday of this great nation if we were to act bold think out of the box be creative

566
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:16,920
really reinvigorate that american spirit that i still truly believe lives in the the bellies of

567
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:21,640
many individual americans out there myself included let's act bold let's do it and you

568
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:27,620
mentioned ai maybe we get this productivity explosion that really helps us figure out

569
00:45:27,620 --> 00:45:31,640
things economically, but then you're going to have some job issues that that does manifest.

570
00:45:31,740 --> 00:45:35,680
You have to deal with those with money printing. But even if you believe that

571
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:39,680
AI is the Hail Mary, considering the energy part of that equation,

572
00:45:39,820 --> 00:45:42,620
Bitcoin has to play a part because you're going to need to expand generation.

573
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:47,620
The AI data centers need constant consumption

574
00:45:47,620 --> 00:45:51,560
of the electricity that's being produced, and you're going to need some demand

575
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:54,600
response there. And I believe we're beginning to see this

576
00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:58,760
become recognized, actually, particularly from this administration, Chris Wright.

577
00:45:59,460 --> 00:46:04,940
I think he's talked about this. FERC came out with, I believe, a bulletin a couple of weeks ago,

578
00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:10,700
really leaning into demand response and loosely alluding to the fact that Bitcoin miners have a

579
00:46:10,700 --> 00:46:18,620
role to play here. And I think that's just bringing this back to the debt situation.

580
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:23,680
Nothing stops the strain, the structural issues that exist. This is something that should invigorate

581
00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:28,120
and I would hope engender a lot of optimism on the Hill.

582
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:31,820
It's like, oh, we've been talking about the social security,

583
00:46:31,820 --> 00:46:35,260
the debt issue, the bailouts of the banks,

584
00:46:35,340 --> 00:46:36,620
whatever it may be, my whole life.

585
00:46:37,140 --> 00:46:39,700
And there really hasn't been many solutions

586
00:46:39,700 --> 00:47:01,330
other than feigning or wanting to balance the budget which is never going to happen just due to the structural issues raise the social security retirement age limit It all been sort of dinks and dunks trying to minutely change different inputs into a function that is not working

587
00:47:01,470 --> 00:47:08,850
And here you have this external variable that can enter the equation and really add some positive momentum towards a solution.

588
00:47:09,670 --> 00:47:13,250
Yeah, I think that it will definitely be a forcing function for change.

589
00:47:13,810 --> 00:47:20,870
In terms of how AI interacts with the structural fiscal problems we have, still unclear.

590
00:47:21,770 --> 00:47:25,610
You know, the vast majority of our mandatory spending comes from payroll taxes.

591
00:47:26,370 --> 00:47:33,930
You know, a lot of money that comes from Social Security is ultimately paid into by how many people are employed.

592
00:47:34,590 --> 00:47:39,550
And if there is some sort of job displacement, that could actually speed up some of the timelines here.

593
00:47:39,550 --> 00:48:02,090
I think there will be massive productivity gains, but hard to know how that plays into it. And if that moves the timeline up for how quickly some of these longer term ticking time bombs have to go. Does that mean that corporate real estate will be impacted more because more sort of digital workers are working?

594
00:48:02,090 --> 00:48:06,530
does that mean less people are paying into the payroll system and that means social security

595
00:48:06,530 --> 00:48:13,270
you know goes bust sooner rather than later just this year they moved up the timeline on when they

596
00:48:13,270 --> 00:48:20,590
expect that social security will start to run out which got moved up by a year and it's already less

597
00:48:20,590 --> 00:48:25,530
than 10 years away right so really hard to know what the impact will be i do think that bitcoin

598
00:48:25,530 --> 00:48:33,270
will be a part of it, part of the AI revolution, however you want to frame it, which is digitally

599
00:48:33,270 --> 00:48:39,530
native agents, digitally native economics is going to look to digital money. And they're obviously

600
00:48:39,530 --> 00:48:44,030
going to want something that's like Bitcoin, right? They're going to want something that's

601
00:48:44,030 --> 00:48:50,350
programmable, something that they can transact in freely. It's a bearer instrument. It's a bearer

602
00:48:50,350 --> 00:48:58,490
instrument. You know, Nick Szabo talks a lot about the mental transaction cost that Bitcoin might be

603
00:48:58,490 --> 00:49:02,690
programmable. We might be able to send millions of transactions per minute over the Lightning

604
00:49:02,690 --> 00:49:09,510
Network. But you and I mentally, we don't have that capacity, right? Paying 10 cents for a piece

605
00:49:09,510 --> 00:49:14,570
of data or something is just, it has its own mental costs that are separate from the cost of

606
00:49:14,570 --> 00:49:20,390
the transaction. AIs do not have that problem. They can make a million transactions per second

607
00:49:20,390 --> 00:49:25,090
for a million years and not think twice about it. Right. So that's a really interesting,

608
00:49:25,090 --> 00:49:30,770
you know, thought to, to imagine in an economy where the mental transaction cost part of it

609
00:49:30,770 --> 00:49:35,830
are no longer there. And we're going to see something like Bitcoin become a lot more

610
00:49:35,830 --> 00:49:42,770
attractive in that scenario too. Yeah. And so shifting toward, I mean, we've been really

611
00:49:42,770 --> 00:49:45,750
discussing solutions-oriented things,

612
00:49:45,810 --> 00:49:47,810
but getting more granular with it

613
00:49:47,810 --> 00:49:49,390
in terms of acquiring the Bitcoin.

614
00:49:49,670 --> 00:49:52,830
One of the proposals that came out

615
00:49:52,830 --> 00:49:54,770
of the Bitcoin Policy Institute earlier this year

616
00:49:54,770 --> 00:49:57,070
was the idea of BitBonds.

617
00:49:57,410 --> 00:50:01,110
And this is something that I think

618
00:50:01,110 --> 00:50:02,770
is a good way to do it.

619
00:50:02,850 --> 00:50:03,790
There are many people who say,

620
00:50:03,950 --> 00:50:07,010
BitBonds won't work, why would you buy a BitBond?

621
00:50:07,090 --> 00:50:07,910
We could just buy Bitcoin.

622
00:50:08,070 --> 00:50:11,150
Why would you leave potential upside returns

623
00:50:11,150 --> 00:50:15,450
on the table and feed the government monies

624
00:50:15,450 --> 00:50:17,670
so that they can expand their debt.

625
00:50:17,790 --> 00:50:19,210
But as we were discussing over coffee,

626
00:50:19,310 --> 00:50:22,030
we're beginning to see products like a BitBond

627
00:50:22,030 --> 00:50:23,470
emerge in the private sector,

628
00:50:23,550 --> 00:50:27,970
particularly via MicroStrategy and its preferred offerings

629
00:50:27,970 --> 00:50:31,150
that really give me the confidence

630
00:50:31,150 --> 00:50:33,670
that BitBonds could be a solution

631
00:50:33,670 --> 00:50:37,450
and a way to accumulate a strategic reserve

632
00:50:37,450 --> 00:50:38,470
at the federal level.

633
00:50:38,470 --> 00:51:02,050
Yeah, I think that this is something that we're going to see mature over time, certainly. But the innovation always starts in the private sector, right? And we are seeing the emergence of these digital credit instruments. We're seeing the emergence of building out what the risk curve looks like when you have Bitcoin as the driving monetary asset, and then you're layering financial products on top of that.

634
00:51:02,050 --> 00:51:16,330
And strategy, I think, is doing a fantastic job of illustrating that once you realize Bitcoin is this monetary asset at the base of it, that you can build all of these really interesting products on top of that.

635
00:51:16,790 --> 00:51:22,470
And the U.S. government is in a very similar economic position, right?

636
00:51:22,490 --> 00:51:24,290
They have all of this credit.

637
00:51:24,770 --> 00:51:27,770
They have all this debt that they have to offer to the public, right?

638
00:51:27,770 --> 00:51:56,350
So they're looking for how do they keep interest rates down? How do we sell these large offerings to the public and finance our deficits? And I think that the private sector is demonstrating that by blending Bitcoin into existing instruments, you can actually create novel products that benefit both the borrower and the purchaser.

639
00:51:56,350 --> 00:52:00,710
because ultimately you're able to offer

640
00:52:00,710 --> 00:52:02,530
a better product to the market.

641
00:52:03,270 --> 00:52:06,770
And I don't know exactly what the terms

642
00:52:06,770 --> 00:52:08,270
of those instruments could look like,

643
00:52:08,650 --> 00:52:11,670
but I think the Bitbond's proposal is one example

644
00:52:11,670 --> 00:52:16,090
of saying, look, if you were to blend Bitcoin

645
00:52:16,090 --> 00:52:18,190
into a standard treasury offering,

646
00:52:18,610 --> 00:52:21,310
then you could have the purchaser

647
00:52:21,310 --> 00:52:24,670
become interested by this Bitcoin upside

648
00:52:24,670 --> 00:52:29,830
and they're able to offer the borrower much better terms

649
00:52:29,830 --> 00:52:32,510
because they're more interested in this upside.

650
00:52:33,070 --> 00:52:37,610
And so you can sort of align the interest of both the borrower

651
00:52:37,610 --> 00:52:41,330
and the purchaser through Bitcoin.

652
00:52:41,330 --> 00:52:47,030
And I think that that is an example of how the U.S. government should be thinking.

653
00:52:47,730 --> 00:52:50,190
It's great that we're tweeting about Bitcoin,

654
00:52:50,730 --> 00:52:52,230
tweeting about the resilience of the network,

655
00:52:52,230 --> 00:53:10,090
But where we're at now is we need to think creatively about how do we align and how do we put Bitcoin into these existing tools that we have and build that into the toolbox and sort of take some of those private sector innovations and think about it at a federal level.

656
00:53:10,090 --> 00:53:15,070
I think that is something that would be a very, very worthwhile endeavor.

657
00:53:15,430 --> 00:53:18,710
It's part of what we're working on at Bitcoin Policy Institute,

658
00:53:18,990 --> 00:53:24,990
is helping those in government think through how do you blend Bitcoin into your tool set.

659
00:53:26,210 --> 00:53:27,530
All right, let's steel man this.

660
00:53:27,770 --> 00:53:32,330
Considering the polarized nature of politics in the United States right now,

661
00:53:32,430 --> 00:53:36,870
how practical is it to get any of this implemented, do you think?

662
00:53:36,870 --> 00:53:43,370
Well, I think that goes back to the educational piece. So I guess it probably would be best to

663
00:53:43,370 --> 00:53:50,250
keep going through the history of the SBR, right? Because it's a great case of showing how you can

664
00:53:50,250 --> 00:53:59,030
start to build momentum for a concept. So we put it out there in 24 and there were no co-sponsors.

665
00:53:59,250 --> 00:54:03,790
There was no house companion. There was no one that wanted to get on board with this idea.

666
00:54:03,790 --> 00:54:09,170
and it was really just us saying, hey, we think this is important.

667
00:54:10,110 --> 00:54:14,830
And over that period of time, Senator Lummis is talking to her colleagues.

668
00:54:15,530 --> 00:54:18,990
On the staff level, I'm meeting with people, explaining Bitcoin to them,

669
00:54:19,130 --> 00:54:22,670
explaining why Bitcoin is going to be this important savings technology.

670
00:54:23,730 --> 00:54:31,250
And over the course of six, seven months, we roll around to 2025, to the new Congress.

671
00:54:31,250 --> 00:54:36,350
and by just talking to people and meeting with them several times,

672
00:54:36,610 --> 00:54:39,870
getting them familiar with the concept of Bitcoin and what we're proposing,

673
00:54:40,610 --> 00:54:47,110
then we were able to, in just six months, reintroduce the bill in the new Congress.

674
00:54:47,390 --> 00:54:51,830
And this time we had five additional co-sponsors, a House companion,

675
00:54:52,250 --> 00:54:54,970
and the House companion had additional co-sponsors.

676
00:54:55,430 --> 00:55:00,770
And so it just kind of goes to show what the impact of education can have.

677
00:55:01,250 --> 00:55:12,870
So I think that where we're at now is something like the SBR politically palatable enough to happen tomorrow.

678
00:55:13,350 --> 00:55:14,690
No, it's not there.

679
00:55:14,690 --> 00:55:26,230
But I think that there's a very clear proof of concept that as Bitcoin continues to gain momentum, as institutional credibility continues to build, as people keep learning about it,

680
00:55:26,230 --> 00:55:39,870
And as Bitcoiners continue to show up to D.C. and talk about it and explain how important this is for our future, for our children's future, then there is a very clear path to victory there, in my opinion.

681
00:55:40,530 --> 00:55:45,350
Well, on that note, in your mind, what's a reasonable timeline to expect an SBR to pass?

682
00:55:45,350 --> 00:55:54,030
So I think, you know, this was another sort of criticism that came about, right, which was people said, well, this is never going to happen.

683
00:55:54,690 --> 00:55:56,450
It's never going to be politically palatable.

684
00:55:56,910 --> 00:56:00,390
And I think that those criticisms were probably accurate.

685
00:56:01,270 --> 00:56:07,690
It is sort of a way to plant the flag in the ground to say, look, this is where we think good policy is.

686
00:56:08,390 --> 00:56:12,150
But realistically, it's not there politically.

687
00:56:12,810 --> 00:56:18,110
But I do think that it is a way of getting the idea out there.

688
00:56:18,110 --> 00:56:46,550
And I would hope that in 2026, we could see something like a codification of the reserve, a bill that really tries to start thinking through and mandating that the administration come up with a plan, start mapping out the game theory, start planning contingency scenarios of what do we do if China acquires 2 million Bitcoin?

689
00:56:46,550 --> 00:57:10,450
What do we do if we're caught off guard? Right. We don't have any break glass plans right now. We don't have the right people that are coming up with strategic plans thinking about this. So my hope is that in 2026, and I think there probably is political will for this, is that we start formalizing things and that we start getting our plan together.

690
00:57:10,450 --> 00:57:13,790
and I think that

691
00:57:13,790 --> 00:57:16,110
the more Bitcoiners that come to the Hill

692
00:57:16,110 --> 00:57:17,630
the more people that are interested in this

693
00:57:17,630 --> 00:57:18,610
and want to work on this

694
00:57:18,610 --> 00:57:20,550
the faster it'll happen

695
00:57:20,550 --> 00:57:22,130
I was telling you

696
00:57:22,130 --> 00:57:26,390
I came here in 2009

697
00:57:26,390 --> 00:57:28,030
it was the first time I came

698
00:57:28,030 --> 00:57:29,630
or second time I came for a field trip

699
00:57:29,630 --> 00:57:30,090
when I was younger

700
00:57:30,090 --> 00:57:31,290
2009 I was 18

701
00:57:31,290 --> 00:57:33,790
and I hadn't been back to the Hill

702
00:57:33,790 --> 00:57:35,650
until earlier this year

703
00:57:35,650 --> 00:57:38,510
when you guys had the BPI event

704
00:57:38,510 --> 00:57:40,530
and I've been here three times since.

705
00:57:40,670 --> 00:57:43,310
Just this year, I've been here four times.

706
00:57:43,430 --> 00:57:43,910
It's important.

707
00:57:44,070 --> 00:57:45,890
We need to dramatically increase

708
00:57:45,890 --> 00:57:48,130
the Bitcoin or density of Washington, D.C.

709
00:57:48,890 --> 00:57:51,450
I think it is very, very important

710
00:57:51,450 --> 00:57:54,150
that if we want to be on the good timeline

711
00:57:54,150 --> 00:57:57,490
where Bitcoin wins and America wins,

712
00:57:57,990 --> 00:58:00,030
then that's going to mean a lot of Bitcoiners

713
00:58:00,030 --> 00:58:02,670
have to come to D.C. and do the rounds

714
00:58:02,670 --> 00:58:05,890
and talk and educate and make the pitch

715
00:58:05,890 --> 00:58:08,850
and explain how important this technology is.

716
00:58:09,090 --> 00:58:12,990
I completely agree that homesteading is awesome

717
00:58:12,990 --> 00:58:16,350
and it would be great to be on a ranch in Montana somewhere

718
00:58:16,350 --> 00:58:18,370
and not have to think about any of this.

719
00:58:20,090 --> 00:58:24,110
But I do think that there is a lot of merit

720
00:58:24,110 --> 00:58:25,450
in actually coming and engaging.

721
00:58:26,210 --> 00:58:29,650
And the stakes are too high, truly.

722
00:58:29,890 --> 00:58:31,070
We've got to get this right.

723
00:58:31,690 --> 00:58:35,310
And if we just completely opt out of the political system,

724
00:58:35,890 --> 00:58:36,890
Power still exists.

725
00:58:37,990 --> 00:58:40,350
And if we are not engaging with that,

726
00:58:40,470 --> 00:58:43,810
then we don't want that power used

727
00:58:43,810 --> 00:58:46,910
against Bitcoin or against us.

728
00:58:47,730 --> 00:58:51,670
So I do think it is important to work

729
00:58:51,670 --> 00:58:54,730
and understand how the system operates.

730
00:58:55,450 --> 00:58:56,970
You may not care about politics,

731
00:58:57,090 --> 00:58:58,430
but politics cares about you.

732
00:58:58,450 --> 00:58:59,930
This is where we look into the camera.

733
00:59:00,750 --> 00:59:01,750
It's so true.

734
00:59:02,250 --> 00:59:04,710
You have to play the game, I really think,

735
00:59:04,710 --> 00:59:07,550
because other people are always playing the game, right?

736
00:59:07,750 --> 00:59:09,390
Well, that's the point I wanted to bring up.

737
00:59:09,430 --> 00:59:11,690
It's very clear that the broader crypto industry

738
00:59:11,690 --> 00:59:13,010
is certainly playing the game,

739
00:59:13,090 --> 00:59:15,170
and they have significant financial backing.

740
00:59:15,170 --> 00:59:18,170
And I think that hasn't really been disconcerting

741
00:59:18,710 --> 00:59:19,350
or disheartening,

742
00:59:19,450 --> 00:59:21,990
but you're outside looking into DC,

743
00:59:22,150 --> 00:59:25,390
and you're seeing the crypto lobby really taking space.

744
00:59:25,650 --> 00:59:29,030
And when you had the sort of crypto brief press conference,

745
00:59:29,250 --> 00:59:34,550
you had to not come off as uncouth,

746
00:59:34,550 --> 00:59:49,530
You have people who I don't think were putting the best foot forward for Bitcoin, but maybe they have some personal interest with the projects that they're involved with really getting the ear of this administration and many people on the Hill.

747
00:59:49,530 --> 01:00:08,410
And it's because I think if we're being objective, the crypto industry has definitely been better at recognizing like, hey, we need to put resources and capital behind lobbying and policy discussions on the Hill where as Bitcoin until the Bitcoin Policy Institute really emerged was lacking in that department.

748
01:00:09,130 --> 01:00:17,490
Yeah, I think it is a demonstration that the political system is open to people coming in and engaging with it.

749
01:00:17,490 --> 01:00:21,730
and they've been able to get a lot of wins.

750
01:00:21,910 --> 01:00:23,350
We got the Genius Act passed.

751
01:00:24,050 --> 01:00:25,990
They're working on market structure now.

752
01:00:26,270 --> 01:00:29,190
It demonstrates proof of concept, again,

753
01:00:29,690 --> 01:00:32,710
that with time and resources and patience

754
01:00:32,710 --> 01:00:35,730
and just willingness to engage,

755
01:00:35,730 --> 01:00:40,990
that you can actually get wins for yourself,

756
01:00:41,130 --> 01:00:43,950
for your industry, out of the political process,

757
01:00:43,950 --> 01:00:46,770
but it takes a lot of time and effort,

758
01:00:46,770 --> 01:00:50,250
and that is what we're trying to do at BPI.

759
01:00:50,250 --> 01:00:52,730
And I guess that might be a natural segue

760
01:00:52,730 --> 01:00:56,070
to sort of explain why I ended up leaving the Senate.

761
01:00:57,450 --> 01:01:02,610
So after working in the Senate for two years,

762
01:01:02,970 --> 01:01:04,310
it sort of became apparent to me

763
01:01:04,310 --> 01:01:08,030
that these outside groups are very effective

764
01:01:08,030 --> 01:01:09,530
at getting things done

765
01:01:09,530 --> 01:01:13,530
and that as a single staffer,

766
01:01:13,730 --> 01:01:15,950
there's only so much impact you can have.

767
01:01:15,950 --> 01:01:23,270
because it's sort of this idealistic one guy versus the government,

768
01:01:23,450 --> 01:01:27,030
one guy trying to explain Bitcoin to the entire federal government.

769
01:01:29,630 --> 01:01:33,350
So that was the reason I decided to make the change

770
01:01:33,350 --> 01:01:37,570
was we need a real organization, real heft.

771
01:01:38,290 --> 01:01:43,350
And Bitcoin Policy Institute was the one that has been aligned

772
01:01:43,350 --> 01:01:50,370
and principles-driven and sort of right from a forecasting perspective for my view.

773
01:01:52,610 --> 01:01:57,510
With that in mind, you guys, from my perspective,

774
01:01:57,670 --> 01:02:02,730
have really outpunched your weight class in terms of what VPI has been able to get done.

775
01:02:03,310 --> 01:02:06,070
Shout out to David, Grant, Matthew Pines,

776
01:02:06,070 --> 01:02:09,970
who is the position that you're sliding into, and everybody else,

777
01:02:10,150 --> 01:02:13,270
Zach, both Zach, Zach Shapiro, Zach Cohen.

778
01:02:13,350 --> 01:02:17,450
and many others at BPI considering how small

779
01:02:17,450 --> 01:02:22,450
and it's a bit punk rock you guys have made a big impact.

780
01:02:23,290 --> 01:02:25,050
But now with you,

781
01:02:25,080 --> 01:02:31,640
the helm of strategy, what do we need to do from here on out? Or what does BPI need to do?

782
01:02:32,340 --> 01:02:39,120
Yeah, I had the same view, which was BPI is basically the honey badger of DC. You know,

783
01:02:39,140 --> 01:02:44,580
I said this, I think about this all the time, which is that Bitcoin is the superpower, right?

784
01:02:44,580 --> 01:02:51,540
That we might not have the resources or the organizational size that a lot of the traditional

785
01:02:51,540 --> 01:02:59,020
securities groups have or banking groups have. There's all sorts of major, major organizations

786
01:02:59,020 --> 01:03:09,060
here in DC. But BPI is uniquely positioned to be this sort of underdog that does punch well above

787
01:03:09,060 --> 01:03:15,740
its weight class because Bitcoin is such a powerful idea and that we know what's going to happen.

788
01:03:15,740 --> 01:03:36,440
And the more you talk about it, the more you're proven right. So we have an immense amount of credibility that's gained by just explaining Bitcoin patiently and then being proven right as the tides continue to shift, as Bitcoin continues to mature, as it continues to itself punch above its weight class.

789
01:03:37,660 --> 01:03:43,060
That is a superpower for BPI is that we can sort of see the future and explain it before it happens.

790
01:03:43,060 --> 01:03:51,420
so ultimately the reason I decided to join was I was just really impressed I met David by

791
01:03:51,420 --> 01:03:57,720
sort of accident I was looking I was trying to do an educational event for Hill staff

792
01:03:57,720 --> 01:04:06,960
and I thought a good event could be let's explain Bitcoin versus CBDCs and just sort of have one

793
01:04:06,960 --> 01:04:12,160
side explain Bitcoin and one side explain CBDCs and what they're trying to get at.

794
01:04:13,360 --> 01:04:17,200
And David got recommended to me as someone to explain the Bitcoin side.

795
01:04:18,220 --> 01:04:24,800
So don't know what to expect. I meet him and it turns out he's actually a very similar background

796
01:04:24,800 --> 01:04:33,860
to mine. We were both debaters in high school and in the really crazy small world had the same

797
01:04:33,860 --> 01:04:38,620
debate coach. He coached me at Wake Forest when I was in college, and then he went to Alabama and

798
01:04:38,620 --> 01:04:44,200
coached David for high school. So we had this like crazy, crazy small world moment. And that became

799
01:04:44,200 --> 01:04:53,100
the beginning of a great friendship. And I was consistently just impressed by how serious they

800
01:04:53,100 --> 01:04:59,160
were, that they understood the stakes. They had a very similar view that Bitcoin is important,

801
01:04:59,160 --> 01:05:06,000
that the ideals behind the network are so important. The promise of a free and open

802
01:05:06,000 --> 01:05:14,780
monetary system is just critical. But in order to achieve that, we have to make sure that smart,

803
01:05:15,200 --> 01:05:20,380
aligned policymakers have tools at their disposal. They're educated. They understand the issues.

804
01:05:21,540 --> 01:05:27,180
And that was ultimately why I decided that BPI was sort of the right place to go.

805
01:05:27,180 --> 01:05:34,640
They had the depth of bench and the same outlook that I think is exactly what we need in Bitcoin right now.

806
01:05:35,360 --> 01:05:37,260
We're sort of going to the next phase.

807
01:05:37,660 --> 01:05:38,980
We're going to the next phase.

808
01:05:39,080 --> 01:05:44,080
We're going to the phase where Bitcoin really is seen as a world asset.

809
01:05:45,360 --> 01:05:46,660
And it's much more serious.

810
01:05:46,880 --> 01:05:49,580
We are not just a joke on the internet anymore.

811
01:05:50,080 --> 01:05:51,820
We mean serious business.

812
01:05:51,820 --> 01:06:10,020
And that means that we have to be prepared for serious threats and have to be able to professionalize and explain Bitcoin to the most important people in the world and explain it to them in a way that they can understand it easily.

813
01:06:10,800 --> 01:06:14,340
Because, you know, everyone's very busy as well.

814
01:06:14,340 --> 01:06:16,460
So you've got to be quick and concise.

815
01:06:16,460 --> 01:06:31,340
But that's sort of where we landed, is that BPI is really the only organization positioned to set America up for success and guide America through the rise of Bitcoin.

816
01:06:32,480 --> 01:06:34,340
Well, moving forward, what does that look like mechanically?

817
01:06:34,340 --> 01:07:01,380
Yeah. Well, mechanically, this is something that we're actively trying to figure out, right? Is how can we take sort of what we've learned from working around the hill? I was on the hill for two years. How can we take those lessons and think about what are the major asymmetric moves we can make to have a big impact?

818
01:07:01,380 --> 01:07:06,700
I think a huge lesson learned in just having people on the Hill.

819
01:07:08,160 --> 01:07:10,960
Senator Lummis is a Bitcoiner. I was a Bitcoiner.

820
01:07:11,660 --> 01:07:15,120
There's a handful of other people on the Hill that were interested in Bitcoin.

821
01:07:15,120 --> 01:07:19,100
And just those handful of people were able to have

822
01:07:19,100 --> 01:07:23,480
a major, I would say, paradigm-shifting win

823
01:07:23,480 --> 01:07:27,400
from thinking about Bitcoin

824
01:07:27,400 --> 01:07:31,260
defensively to thinking about it offensively, to seeing it as a

825
01:07:31,260 --> 01:07:38,600
good for America. So with that, one of the first things that we're doing is a congressional

826
01:07:38,600 --> 01:07:47,860
fellowship program. And BPI will be able to fund subject matter expert Bitcoiners to go and work

827
01:07:47,860 --> 01:07:54,200
on Capitol Hill. So our first cohort will be in January. It'll be small as we're just getting

828
01:07:54,200 --> 01:08:00,760
started. But it's been crazy, actually. I've just put out like a few tweets about it. And my inbox

829
01:08:00,760 --> 01:08:05,660
is just flooded with super smart, talented Bitcoiners. They're working all over the country

830
01:08:05,660 --> 01:08:13,240
in different jobs, working in sales or marketing or on Wall Street. Some of them are developers.

831
01:08:13,820 --> 01:08:19,480
I think it's really important that we get them here on the Hill and they can help explain what

832
01:08:19,480 --> 01:08:25,880
Bitcoin is, how it works, what good and bad policy looks like. We just need subject matter experts

833
01:08:25,880 --> 01:08:35,400
here. So that's one thing. Another thing is it is very common for senior staff to go through more

834
01:08:35,400 --> 01:08:43,920
rigorous explainers on policy. The key thing is there are committee staff that are responsible

835
01:08:43,920 --> 01:08:49,900
for determining a specific policy area. And those committee staff have a lot of say

836
01:08:49,900 --> 01:08:54,680
in what Congress takes up and how issues are resolved.

837
01:08:55,540 --> 01:08:58,800
And so one of the other programs that we're going to be starting

838
01:08:58,800 --> 01:09:00,720
is a Satoshi Scholars program.

839
01:09:01,820 --> 01:09:08,160
This is basically a program that will educate senior members of committees,

840
01:09:08,860 --> 01:09:12,460
senior staff on committees on the basics of Bitcoin

841
01:09:12,460 --> 01:09:14,960
and basically be like an eight-week crash course

842
01:09:14,960 --> 01:09:17,740
to really get people up to speed

843
01:09:17,740 --> 01:09:21,580
because you can't learn Bitcoin in a 30 minute or even an hour long setting.

844
01:09:21,580 --> 01:09:25,920
You really, to grok it deeply, it needs to be a multi-week session.

845
01:09:26,080 --> 01:09:30,760
And we want to really provide the resources to help the staff that want to learn

846
01:09:30,760 --> 01:09:37,140
but just haven't made the time for it to really make it easy and accessible for them.

847
01:09:38,460 --> 01:09:42,560
You mentioned you had a flood of people reaching out after you announced it originally.

848
01:09:42,560 --> 01:09:49,020
but in your mind what is the archetypal individual for this position?

849
01:09:50,060 --> 01:09:53,200
The archetypal, well okay, good question.

850
01:09:53,800 --> 01:09:56,280
Honestly they come in many shapes and sizes.

851
01:09:57,180 --> 01:09:59,660
There's lots of different types of Bitcoiners.

852
01:10:00,160 --> 01:10:03,900
There's people that are much more on the developer side.

853
01:10:04,400 --> 01:10:09,780
They have spent time working on different Bitcoin related projects.

854
01:10:09,780 --> 01:10:14,960
They might have even made some submissions trying to work on core or something related.

855
01:10:14,960 --> 01:10:28,910
Maybe they worked on wallet software Or it could be someone who not as technical like myself I never programmed but I done my 10 hours of Bitcoin podcast like everyone else I been in the trenches on X

856
01:10:29,130 --> 01:10:31,810
I've been reading what all the plebs have to say.

857
01:10:32,330 --> 01:10:36,730
You can get a really good understanding of Bitcoin even without the technical side.

858
01:10:38,730 --> 01:10:44,790
I think there is no one true perfect fit for this,

859
01:10:44,790 --> 01:10:48,310
but there are certain things that we look for.

860
01:10:49,430 --> 01:10:51,850
One of my favorite interview questions is,

861
01:10:52,350 --> 01:10:56,310
can you explain the difference between what a node does

862
01:10:56,310 --> 01:10:57,950
and what a Bitcoin miner does?

863
01:10:59,170 --> 01:11:01,350
That's a pretty straightforward answer.

864
01:11:01,510 --> 01:11:07,750
I think that probably there might be three or four people

865
01:11:07,750 --> 01:11:11,890
in all of Capitol Hill that could answer that question realistically.

866
01:11:12,890 --> 01:11:14,750
It's a relatively simple question.

867
01:11:14,790 --> 01:11:17,570
So that's the type of thing we're looking for

868
01:11:17,570 --> 01:11:20,730
Do you understand what the network does

869
01:11:20,730 --> 01:11:22,450
How it operates, why it's important

870
01:11:22,450 --> 01:11:26,030
And there's a lot of different people that do

871
01:11:26,030 --> 01:11:29,250
You're out there

872
01:11:29,250 --> 01:11:30,270
You're interested

873
01:11:30,270 --> 01:11:31,730
We need you on the hill

874
01:11:31,730 --> 01:11:33,470
I never thought I'd be saying stuff like this

875
01:11:33,470 --> 01:11:36,270
When we were recording in my apartment in Brooklyn

876
01:11:36,270 --> 01:11:37,790
Six years ago

877
01:11:37,790 --> 01:11:39,990
People would have told me we'd be sitting in D.C.

878
01:11:40,710 --> 01:11:41,830
At the Rumble Studios

879
01:11:41,830 --> 01:11:44,150
talking about how we're going to affect

880
01:11:44,150 --> 01:11:45,850
Bitcoin-related policy.

881
01:11:45,930 --> 01:11:46,630
I would have said, you're nuts.

882
01:11:47,910 --> 01:11:49,970
Yeah, even the concept of Bitcoin-related policy

883
01:11:49,970 --> 01:11:52,770
was like, is there a Bitcoin-related policy?

884
01:11:52,870 --> 01:11:53,410
I don't know.

885
01:11:54,030 --> 01:11:55,030
But it is true.

886
01:11:55,130 --> 01:11:56,410
If you're out there, freaks,

887
01:11:56,910 --> 01:11:58,670
we need more freaks in DC.

888
01:11:58,830 --> 01:12:00,050
We need more Bitcoiners here.

889
01:12:00,610 --> 01:12:01,590
Please come out.

890
01:12:02,150 --> 01:12:03,810
We're a great community here.

891
01:12:03,930 --> 01:12:04,650
We're opening up.

892
01:12:04,790 --> 01:12:05,990
There's the new PubKey.

893
01:12:06,290 --> 01:12:07,930
PubKey DC is going to be opening up.

894
01:12:09,230 --> 01:12:10,970
So we're going to have a Bitcoin embassy.

895
01:12:11,830 --> 01:12:23,290
And I do think it's very important to get involved and, you know, to to sort of help D.C. see the beautiful orange light at the end of the tunnel.

896
01:12:24,750 --> 01:12:29,170
Yeah, we've been talking a lot about how we get this right in your mind.

897
01:12:29,230 --> 01:12:32,690
How how does the U.S. government get this wrong moving forward?

898
01:12:32,770 --> 01:12:39,470
Like what sort of foot guns are there on the horizon that that the government could wander into?

899
01:12:39,470 --> 01:13:01,430
Yeah, getting it wrong. You know, Bitcoin is inevitably going to win in my mind that just by its nature, it will continue to outcompete. How quickly that happens, the exact path it takes, hard to say. But I think just by its nature, it's simply better money. Right.

900
01:13:01,430 --> 01:13:08,910
So I think that getting it wrong would look like what other jurisdictions are reading or are considering, right?

901
01:13:09,950 --> 01:13:17,650
Something like an unrealized gains tax on Bitcoin or something where you are being adverse to Bitcoiners.

902
01:13:19,170 --> 01:13:22,850
At the end of the day, Bitcoiners are smart.

903
01:13:23,110 --> 01:13:25,050
They understand world events.

904
01:13:25,150 --> 01:13:26,870
They understand where they fit into things.

905
01:13:27,190 --> 01:13:29,370
They are very mobile, right?

906
01:13:29,370 --> 01:13:31,910
capital flight is a major risk.

907
01:13:32,870 --> 01:13:36,510
And that if you're not passing pro-Bitcoin policy,

908
01:13:36,670 --> 01:13:40,150
if you're not treating Bitcoiners well,

909
01:13:40,250 --> 01:13:43,710
I do think there's a risk that they just up and leave to Dubai

910
01:13:43,710 --> 01:13:47,070
or somewhere else in the Middle East or a friendlier jurisdiction.

911
01:13:48,870 --> 01:13:55,070
So that would be my worst case

912
01:13:55,070 --> 01:13:58,130
is just that people don't appreciate

913
01:13:58,130 --> 01:14:04,110
that Bitcoin is inevitable and they think that it is just something that you can sort of brush off.

914
01:14:05,070 --> 01:14:13,350
And, you know, we sort of accidentally make already a bad financial situation just that much worse

915
01:14:13,350 --> 01:14:19,350
as large portions of your capital base decide, you know what, we're going to just go to another jurisdiction.

916
01:14:19,350 --> 01:14:20,850
That would be worst case.

917
01:14:20,850 --> 01:14:41,390
I also think there is risk in trying to, you know, anything on the network side, trying to restrict, you know, mining or trying to see energy as a zero sum game.

918
01:14:41,390 --> 01:14:59,550
I mean, this goes back to what you were saying about AI, right? If we don't understand Bitcoin as a buyer of last resort for energy and instead see it as a zero sum game where if the Bitcoiners are using energy, then someone else is not, then I think that's also going to be bad.

919
01:14:59,550 --> 01:15:04,890
it will make our energy systems more fragile. It will prevent us from having the most cost

920
01:15:04,890 --> 01:15:10,650
competitive, probably AI systems. There's a lot of secondary consequences of that too.

921
01:15:11,110 --> 01:15:17,690
So, I mean, this is what we're constantly looking out for at BPI is making sure we're

922
01:15:17,690 --> 01:15:23,850
passing good pro-Bitcoin policy and making the right decisions. But also it's a game of defense

923
01:15:23,850 --> 01:15:30,150
too. You can't lose sight of the fact that people that are adverse to Bitcoin are trying to think

924
01:15:30,150 --> 01:15:37,330
about, you know, how they want to, I don't know if they even want to harm the network, but,

925
01:15:37,450 --> 01:15:41,750
you know, there could easily be something that slips in where they think they're doing something

926
01:15:41,750 --> 01:15:49,930
good for, let's say, illicit finance, right? And they sort of accidentally, as collateral damage,

927
01:15:49,930 --> 01:15:53,730
hurt the network. So that's something that we're thinking about too.

928
01:15:53,850 --> 01:15:59,390
Yeah, I think recently there was a memo or a bulletin from the Treasury Department.

929
01:15:59,570 --> 01:16:04,750
A lot of people looked at, a lot of Bitcoiners looked at, like, whoa, what is this?

930
01:16:04,750 --> 01:16:22,710
I think it was based out of the crypto brief, which said we need to expand the Patriot Act to include the sixth condition that incorporates digital assets, tokens, or whatever they're being referred to these days.

931
01:16:22,710 --> 01:16:31,190
and from what i can tell it was just some staffer or at treasury or somebody put out guidelines like

932
01:16:31,190 --> 01:16:37,270
hey maybe this is what we should do and it was like you can't use collaborative transactions coin

933
01:16:37,270 --> 01:16:42,710
joins uh if you're using multiple addresses we're going to assume you're doing something nefarious

934
01:16:42,710 --> 01:16:49,670
and many things about wallet software particularly and any bitcoiner it's been in bitcoin for long

935
01:16:49,670 --> 01:16:54,390
enough and actually uses it and does utxo management it's like hey these are best practices

936
01:16:54,390 --> 01:16:59,030
to preserve privacy and security of your private keys over the long term you don't want to be

937
01:16:59,670 --> 01:17:04,230
reusing addresses and the reason i bring this up because i think there was a pushback and

938
01:17:04,230 --> 01:17:07,270
many people i've got some texts from people on the hill like don't worry we'll make sure we get

939
01:17:07,270 --> 01:17:13,430
this right it's when you notice that bad policy is potentially going to get incorporated into

940
01:17:13,430 --> 01:17:19,910
something, whether that's guidelines from a department in the federal government or into a

941
01:17:19,910 --> 01:17:23,830
bill itself, if you speak up, I think we've seen this pretty consistently over the last few years,

942
01:17:24,350 --> 01:17:30,170
the Hill will react. So true. So true. This is another question that I ask when we're interviewing

943
01:17:30,170 --> 01:17:36,310
for the Congressional Fellowship. What is a UTXO? You know, it's a relatively simple concept.

944
01:17:36,310 --> 01:17:44,150
A lot of people aren't quite clear on it, but I think that goes to a perfect example, right?

945
01:17:44,270 --> 01:17:51,010
That as Bitcoiners, we understand UTXO management, we understand how the network operates, and

946
01:17:51,010 --> 01:17:56,650
that a lot of the things that can by some people be seen as nefarious activity are actually

947
01:17:56,650 --> 01:18:02,090
just proper management of block space or actually just proper management of your UTXOs.

948
01:18:02,090 --> 01:18:05,390
and having people that are technically inclined

949
01:18:05,390 --> 01:18:07,990
that can explain that clearly

950
01:18:07,990 --> 01:18:10,130
of exactly why that is necessary,

951
01:18:10,290 --> 01:18:27,640
why it is not evidence that you a criminal or that it is some reason to think this person guilty but it actually just proper hygiene for maintaining your coins and using the blockchain in a thoughtful way

952
01:18:27,940 --> 01:18:33,720
That is a discussion that is just non-existent, non-existent on the Hill. And so important

953
01:18:33,720 --> 01:18:40,740
that someone is getting that right because it goes to the difference between at face value,

954
01:18:40,740 --> 01:18:50,840
I totally understand why someone who's concerned about illicit finance or national security, I understand why they might think, you know, using multiple addresses.

955
01:18:51,420 --> 01:18:53,980
They haven't done the 10,000 hours of Bitcoin podcast.

956
01:18:54,120 --> 01:18:55,660
They're not in the weeds like we are.

957
01:18:56,080 --> 01:19:00,200
And so they can plausibly, you know, come up with an argument for why that's true.

958
01:19:00,260 --> 01:19:06,500
And it's important that we have smart Bitcoiners that say, no, no, no, that's not what's happening there.

959
01:19:06,500 --> 01:19:11,600
and you can basically refute the FUD with basic understanding of the network.

960
01:19:11,600 --> 01:19:16,880
And what I found is coming through and providing that subject matter expertise,

961
01:19:17,260 --> 01:19:19,220
people are extremely receptive to that.

962
01:19:19,380 --> 01:19:21,340
It's just they're not getting the other side.

963
01:19:21,620 --> 01:19:22,420
They're not.

964
01:19:22,880 --> 01:19:26,000
And that's why it's important to engage.

965
01:19:26,140 --> 01:19:29,860
It's important to be here because they're not listening to the plebs on Twitter.

966
01:19:30,020 --> 01:19:31,120
I love the plebs on Twitter.

967
01:19:31,980 --> 01:19:32,800
They're great.

968
01:19:32,880 --> 01:19:33,480
They're important.

969
01:19:33,480 --> 01:19:36,400
but at the end of the day

970
01:19:36,400 --> 01:19:38,480
you have to come and speak the language

971
01:19:38,480 --> 01:19:40,280
and be there in person and explain it to them

972
01:19:40,280 --> 01:19:42,840
and I think there's just a lot of dividends there

973
01:19:42,840 --> 01:19:45,240
To further

974
01:19:45,240 --> 01:19:48,100
massage the pitch that you're giving

975
01:19:48,100 --> 01:19:49,500
to Bitcoiners to come

976
01:19:49,500 --> 01:19:51,760
what's good about the city? Is there good food?

977
01:19:52,520 --> 01:19:53,080
Great food

978
01:19:53,080 --> 01:19:56,100
Why come to DC? Why come to the city?

979
01:19:56,160 --> 01:19:57,260
It seems like they're cleaning it up

980
01:19:57,260 --> 01:20:00,280
It's getting very clean, it's getting very hospitable

981
01:20:00,280 --> 01:20:02,300
There's great food

982
01:20:02,300 --> 01:20:05,640
There will be really good food at PubKey, again, just to plug that.

983
01:20:06,100 --> 01:20:08,760
But I think it's a beautiful city.

984
01:20:09,140 --> 01:20:11,260
It's one of America's great cities, truly.

985
01:20:11,800 --> 01:20:14,640
The architecture here, top-notch.

986
01:20:14,840 --> 01:20:15,680
Great museums.

987
01:20:17,220 --> 01:20:20,340
I think that we've really lost beautiful architecture,

988
01:20:20,800 --> 01:20:23,180
and D.C. is one of the few places that has it.

989
01:20:23,240 --> 01:20:24,120
It's very walkable.

990
01:20:24,700 --> 01:20:25,920
It's got a great layout.

991
01:20:26,880 --> 01:20:29,760
The metro system tonight, I mean, the quality of life-wise,

992
01:20:30,380 --> 01:20:31,180
it is tough to beat.

993
01:20:32,300 --> 01:20:40,460
I think that architecture is actually, this is something else, another rabbit hole I went down since we last spoke.

994
01:20:40,560 --> 01:20:42,260
But I had a big architecture phase.

995
01:20:43,900 --> 01:20:45,680
I think we all do once you find Bitcoin.

996
01:20:45,840 --> 01:20:47,620
It's like, oh, it messed up architecture?

997
01:20:47,620 --> 01:20:50,620
Yeah, fiat architecture, this is terrible, right?

998
01:20:51,040 --> 01:20:54,060
So DC does not have fiat architecture for the most part.

999
01:20:54,440 --> 01:20:55,640
It's got a lot of really good stuff.

1000
01:20:55,640 --> 01:20:58,880
and that has a real impact on your psychology

1001
01:20:58,880 --> 01:21:02,860
and your lived environment really impacts

1002
01:21:02,860 --> 01:21:07,560
how you think and how you behave.

1003
01:21:08,840 --> 01:21:11,180
I think you knew Chuck Maroon, Strong Town.

1004
01:21:11,180 --> 01:21:11,780
Yes, yes, yes.

1005
01:21:13,360 --> 01:21:14,880
So DC is great for that.

1006
01:21:15,000 --> 01:21:17,280
It's actually got very wide sidewalks.

1007
01:21:17,620 --> 01:21:19,000
The buildings aren't very tall

1008
01:21:19,000 --> 01:21:20,800
so you don't feel like they're towering over you.

1009
01:21:21,260 --> 01:21:22,020
Lots of sunlight.

1010
01:21:24,040 --> 01:21:25,120
It's overlooked.

1011
01:21:25,120 --> 01:21:26,820
I think you hear a lot about Austin.

1012
01:21:27,020 --> 01:21:27,960
You hear a lot about Miami.

1013
01:21:28,600 --> 01:21:30,220
D.C. sort of slept on.

1014
01:21:31,200 --> 01:21:32,860
Yeah, so I came from Philadelphia.

1015
01:21:33,620 --> 01:21:35,740
Had beautiful train experiences today.

1016
01:21:36,160 --> 01:21:38,080
30th Street Station in Philly.

1017
01:21:38,540 --> 01:21:38,940
Beautiful.

1018
01:21:39,220 --> 01:21:45,400
They have this incredible statue in remembrance of World War II.

1019
01:21:46,980 --> 01:21:48,200
Veterans who passed.

1020
01:21:49,280 --> 01:21:51,460
Michael the Archangel picking somebody up.

1021
01:21:52,460 --> 01:21:53,760
I forget if it was World War II veterans

1022
01:21:53,760 --> 01:21:55,680
or people built the train tracks, whatever it may be.

1023
01:21:55,780 --> 01:21:58,520
Beautiful, awe-inspiring building.

1024
01:21:58,520 --> 01:22:00,080
And then you get here at Union Station.

1025
01:22:00,340 --> 01:22:02,140
Similarly, statues all over the place.

1026
01:22:02,640 --> 01:22:03,300
Beautiful environment.

1027
01:22:03,440 --> 01:22:06,840
I walked here to Rumble Studio from Union Station.

1028
01:22:06,940 --> 01:22:07,580
Beautiful walk.

1029
01:22:08,980 --> 01:22:10,640
Union Station, great building.

1030
01:22:11,060 --> 01:22:13,860
Another one of those classically inspired,

1031
01:22:13,960 --> 01:22:15,720
inspired by Roman architecture.

1032
01:22:16,080 --> 01:22:20,120
It's inspired by some of the baths over in ancient Rome.

1033
01:22:20,820 --> 01:22:22,800
And just absolutely gorgeous.

1034
01:22:22,800 --> 01:22:29,540
and we need to look this is why we have to win okay freaks look this is why we have to win okay

1035
01:22:29,540 --> 01:22:35,780
because we need to go back to building beautiful things we need to go back to a sound monetary

1036
01:22:35,780 --> 01:22:41,940
system where we can have beautiful architecture where we have beautiful art where I you know I'm

1037
01:22:41,940 --> 01:22:47,780
a huge believer in all this DC is sort of sometimes I feel like when I'm walking around DC it's like

1038
01:22:47,780 --> 01:22:53,340
I'm walking through the ruins of like an old civilization. You know, they have these great

1039
01:22:53,340 --> 01:23:00,900
paintings, um, some great like pastoral landscapes of, uh, you know, a farmer like leading some

1040
01:23:00,900 --> 01:23:07,920
cattle through the, uh, the Roman forum. And you can see like, uh, these great arches and stuff

1041
01:23:07,920 --> 01:23:13,440
like poking out of the tops of the dirt. And, uh, it just has such this, such an interesting feel

1042
01:23:13,440 --> 01:23:16,480
of like, ah, there was once a great civilization here.

1043
01:23:17,260 --> 01:23:19,280
That's how I feel walking around D.C.

1044
01:23:19,300 --> 01:23:22,280
It's like, oh, we used to be able to do awesome stuff.

1045
01:23:22,400 --> 01:23:24,960
Like we used to have these great, beautiful buildings

1046
01:23:24,960 --> 01:23:29,040
and, you know, we need to bring that back.

1047
01:23:29,140 --> 01:23:29,600
Well, it's funny.

1048
01:23:29,700 --> 01:23:32,440
We're sort of flippantly going through this subject,

1049
01:23:32,500 --> 01:23:35,340
but I think it highlights something very important,

1050
01:23:35,340 --> 01:23:38,200
which is that there is still this disconnect

1051
01:23:38,200 --> 01:23:39,920
that people do not realize

1052
01:23:39,920 --> 01:23:42,120
that the monetary system affects all this.

1053
01:23:42,120 --> 01:23:55,560
And part of our job as Bitcoiners, more importantly, part of your job at BPI is to really get this message to people on the Hill and really paint a broad brush, particularly over the political spectrum.

1054
01:23:55,560 --> 01:24:00,280
we were talking about this over coffee like if you're if we're being objective about the state

1055
01:24:00,280 --> 01:24:05,880
of politics in the united states right now hyper polarized and i was telling you i was just on what

1056
01:24:05,880 --> 01:24:12,520
bitcoin did with american hodl eric case and a lot of the conversation was it looks like the two

1057
01:24:12,520 --> 01:24:17,160
paths that are predominantly being talked about the united states right now like hardcore

1058
01:24:17,880 --> 01:24:25,080
socialism from the left and strong man for lack of a better term fascism on the right not saying

1059
01:24:25,080 --> 01:24:30,280
that trump is a fash or anything but that's at least the framing that people have accepted as

1060
01:24:30,280 --> 01:24:35,800
the two pass and i think what we're doing with bitcoin and really highlighting like hey we

1061
01:24:35,800 --> 01:24:41,000
acknowledge that these problems exist for everybody across the spectrum and people on both ends of the

1062
01:24:41,000 --> 01:24:47,560
spectrum on the polar ends of the spectrum have very radical ways of doing this and if we can just

1063
01:24:47,560 --> 01:24:54,760
focus in on the money being broken having an effect across the spectrum and work on and focus on

1064
01:24:54,760 --> 01:24:59,940
fixing that, there is a sort of happier middle path that can appease everybody.

1065
01:25:00,520 --> 01:25:05,360
Yeah, it's something that concerns me a lot. I mean, right now we're in a government shutdown.

1066
01:25:06,260 --> 01:25:12,100
This will probably be one of the longest in history. And I think that we are still at the

1067
01:25:12,100 --> 01:25:19,920
early stages of what's to come, right? You know, no one can predict the future, but we do know

1068
01:25:19,920 --> 01:25:25,960
structurally, we have this massive looming financial problems that are on the horizon.

1069
01:25:26,120 --> 01:25:32,520
We know that Social Security is going to run out. We know that Medicare is going to run out.

1070
01:25:33,180 --> 01:25:41,100
We know we're going to have these problems. And I do think that as the fiscal picture gets less

1071
01:25:41,100 --> 01:25:48,580
bleak, as the sort of inequality picture gets worse, as affordability gets worse, as inflation

1072
01:25:48,580 --> 01:25:52,220
continues to sort of slowly eat away at people's finances,

1073
01:25:52,460 --> 01:25:57,280
they are increasingly turning to more radical political positions.

1074
01:25:57,820 --> 01:26:03,820
And I do think that Bitcoin is, like I said, the one thing that can sort of

1075
01:26:04,000 --> 01:26:07,060
you can you can give it to them and be like, look, we can defuse the bomb.

1076
01:26:07,140 --> 01:26:18,890
OK you don have to go down this path We could just adopt a new monetary standard in a very peaceful manner We can just be the first to embrace a new technology get a huge windfall off of that

1077
01:26:18,890 --> 01:26:23,670
position ourselves well, and hopefully we don't have to tear each other apart.

1078
01:26:23,950 --> 01:26:29,030
I mean, that is, maybe I'm being naive or too optimistic, but I think we have to try.

1079
01:26:29,850 --> 01:26:36,150
Because I don't, you know, both sides are looking at the same thing.

1080
01:26:36,150 --> 01:26:55,170
They're saying the system doesn't work for me. It's unaffordable. I'm getting nothing out of this. And what is for them is, you know, one side or the other going to be a more radical solution. That's where they're going to gravitate unless we do something.

1081
01:26:55,170 --> 01:27:09,230
So yeah, I think it ultimately is like on, uh, like I think that we are responsible in some ways of, of being able to be the same people in the room to say, look, there's a third path.

1082
01:27:10,150 --> 01:27:11,130
Are you optimistic?

1083
01:27:12,130 --> 01:27:15,210
I think you have to be, I think you have to be.

1084
01:27:15,210 --> 01:27:25,170
I am optimistic that there is a good chance that we like change the timeline.

1085
01:27:25,990 --> 01:27:35,730
Right. And, you know, any risk of fixing the timeline is better than just resigning yourselves to it's just going to get worse.

1086
01:27:35,730 --> 01:27:46,170
so I would say if I had thought about it before I went to the Senate I was much more pessimistic

1087
01:27:46,170 --> 01:27:51,630
you know I was wanting to go and learn how it worked but it seemed like this overwhelming

1088
01:27:51,630 --> 01:27:57,370
behemoth you know the federal government with millions of employees and all these people

1089
01:27:57,370 --> 01:28:05,210
I do think the white pill and all of it was you can actually have a much bigger impact than you

1090
01:28:05,210 --> 01:28:11,830
expect because the vast majority of people just don't know what they don't know. Maybe I'm

1091
01:28:11,830 --> 01:28:17,530
repeating myself, but I do think that, uh, there is a lot, like if you are self-motivated, there's

1092
01:28:17,530 --> 01:28:26,070
a lot of benefits to just agency going out and doing stuff and just do things. And, um,

1093
01:28:26,750 --> 01:28:31,110
so I don't know, maybe I'm just, I am just sort of a relentless optimist. I will say that is just

1094
01:28:31,110 --> 01:28:38,110
kind of in my nature is I'm not someone who gets down, but, um, I see a pretty clear path to

1095
01:28:38,110 --> 01:28:44,650
victory. We just have to have the resources and the people to make it happen. Yeah. That's your

1096
01:28:44,650 --> 01:28:51,370
call to action freaks. This has been an incredible catch up. It's been six years, but maybe that was

1097
01:28:51,370 --> 01:28:55,510
the perfect amount of time between the first episode in this conversation. A lot has happened.

1098
01:28:55,610 --> 01:29:00,450
You've got some, uh, some more stories to tell on the show, some real war stories. Yeah. We'll

1099
01:29:00,450 --> 01:29:08,350
catch up again in six years. How about that? I'll see you in 2031. No, but it's been long overdue.

1100
01:29:08,350 --> 01:29:15,470
I've listened in routinely. I haven't, I haven't tuned out, but yeah, it was just, you know,

1101
01:29:15,650 --> 01:29:22,310
undercover for a bit there, but you know, we want to, you know, now that I'm at BPI, much more public,

1102
01:29:22,510 --> 01:29:29,550
you know, want to be really talking a lot about the things we're doing and how we're seeing things

1103
01:29:29,550 --> 01:29:32,790
on the Hill and the executive

1104
01:29:32,790 --> 01:29:36,370
and what we think the opportunities are.

1105
01:29:36,870 --> 01:29:39,330
Well, thank you for your service.

1106
01:29:39,470 --> 01:29:40,370
I mean that earnestly.

1107
01:29:41,270 --> 01:29:43,230
Not only to this country, but as a Bitcoiner.

1108
01:29:43,230 --> 01:29:46,910
I think there are many Bitcoiners out there

1109
01:29:46,910 --> 01:29:49,270
who have sort of come to the space

1110
01:29:49,270 --> 01:29:51,810
since you went behind the scenes

1111
01:29:51,810 --> 01:29:54,630
and were completely unaware of who you were

1112
01:29:54,630 --> 01:29:56,310
or the impact that you were having behind the scenes.

1113
01:29:56,310 --> 01:30:08,410
And I just want to say I'm proud having known you for almost 10 years now, seeing what you did while you were working for Senator Wellmas and what you're doing now with BPI.

1114
01:30:08,530 --> 01:30:16,250
I think it's very important work and work, if I'm being honest with myself, that I thought was not worthwhile only a few years ago.

1115
01:30:16,250 --> 01:30:18,530
but I think I've been wholly convinced

1116
01:30:18,530 --> 01:30:19,850
and if you've been listening to the show

1117
01:30:19,850 --> 01:30:22,090
for the last three years, you know that I've had

1118
01:30:22,090 --> 01:30:24,190
sort of a phase shift to recognizing

1119
01:30:24,190 --> 01:30:26,090
that even if you don't care about

1120
01:30:26,090 --> 01:30:28,090
political power, it cares about you

1121
01:30:28,090 --> 01:30:29,370
and it's best to engage.

1122
01:30:29,690 --> 01:30:31,430
I think you're on the front lines of

1123
01:30:31,430 --> 01:30:33,710
this very important engagement, so thank you.

1124
01:30:34,170 --> 01:30:35,870
Well, thank you. I mean, thank you for

1125
01:30:35,870 --> 01:30:38,170
putting out all the content. I mean, I don't know how

1126
01:30:38,170 --> 01:30:39,930
many hours of your content

1127
01:30:39,930 --> 01:30:41,330
that I listened to and helped

1128
01:30:41,330 --> 01:30:43,730
charge me up as a Bitcoiner.

1129
01:30:45,050 --> 01:30:45,850
But no,

1130
01:30:45,850 --> 01:30:51,250
it's really an honor. I feel incredibly lucky. It just was sort of circumstance of how it worked

1131
01:30:51,250 --> 01:31:02,950
out. But I see this as a dream job. My job is to pitch Bitcoin. Really? This is a job? Really?

1132
01:31:03,010 --> 01:31:10,070
I could have this? So it's not like this awful, thankless work. It's really just like I get to

1133
01:31:10,070 --> 01:31:16,830
be a Bitcoin or full time. I get to like, I think that working for BPI is really the closest you can

1134
01:31:16,830 --> 01:31:24,210
get to just working for Bitcoin. Maybe, I mean, obviously like, you know, on the development side,

1135
01:31:24,370 --> 01:31:30,650
that is certainly working for Bitcoin, but working for the network, working for the ideals of what

1136
01:31:30,650 --> 01:31:37,970
it represents, making sure that the promise of what Bitcoin started as is seen through, that it's

1137
01:31:37,970 --> 01:31:46,010
fulfilled, that it doesn't stall out or get co-opted. I do think that working on policy is

1138
01:31:46,010 --> 01:31:50,710
one of the true ways that you can work for Bitcoin. So it's really an honor. Like I'm just so thankful

1139
01:31:50,710 --> 01:31:58,490
every day that I'm able to do it. And I was able to escape the fiat mines. You know, I was just,

1140
01:31:58,490 --> 01:32:04,450
I was just mining fiat for, for years on the corporate law side and just saw,

1141
01:32:04,450 --> 01:32:12,250
you know it was like uh uh you know i mean it wasn't it was it was fine it wasn't awful but

1142
01:32:12,250 --> 01:32:18,430
it wasn't deeply fulfilling you know now i have um and you probably feel the same way with with

1143
01:32:18,430 --> 01:32:25,630
your the stuff you put out and your content is like um it is deeply deeply satisfying knowing

1144
01:32:25,630 --> 01:32:32,230
that your work and energy is going towards um supporting bitcoin and supporting america you

1145
01:32:32,230 --> 01:32:40,510
know i think that's incredibly important so i just feel really lucky i really do um i would not want

1146
01:32:40,510 --> 01:32:45,130
to be doing anything else yeah and we're lucky to have you and i do feel the same way the fact that

1147
01:32:45,130 --> 01:32:50,470
i was able to wake up on a monday morning hop on a train and this is my job sitting here with you

1148
01:32:50,470 --> 01:32:56,350
talking about yeah this is great it's pretty sick not gonna lie well connor we won't wait six years

1149
01:32:56,350 --> 01:33:00,870
between uh this episode and the next one but okay good thank you uh thank you for your time thank

1150
01:33:00,870 --> 01:33:01,590
for what you're doing.

1151
01:33:02,390 --> 01:33:02,510
Yeah.

1152
01:33:02,970 --> 01:33:03,950
Well, thank you, Marty.

1153
01:33:04,170 --> 01:33:04,710
Let's go win.

1154
01:33:05,030 --> 01:33:05,490
We're going to win.

1155
01:33:05,590 --> 01:33:06,190
Peace and love, freaks.

1156
01:33:06,270 --> 01:33:06,890
We're going to win.

1157
01:33:07,150 --> 01:33:08,650
Thank you for listening

1158
01:33:08,650 --> 01:33:09,910
to this episode of TFTC.

1159
01:33:10,430 --> 01:33:11,650
If you've made it this far,

1160
01:33:11,810 --> 01:33:12,950
I imagine you got some value

1161
01:33:12,950 --> 01:33:13,950
out of the episode.

1162
01:33:14,410 --> 01:33:16,530
If so, please share it far and wide

1163
01:33:16,530 --> 01:33:18,330
with your friends and family.

1164
01:33:18,390 --> 01:33:19,770
We're looking to get the word out there.

1165
01:33:20,650 --> 01:33:22,290
Also, wherever you're listening,

1166
01:33:22,430 --> 01:33:23,190
whether that's YouTube,

1167
01:33:23,570 --> 01:33:24,590
Apple, Spotify,

1168
01:33:25,430 --> 01:33:26,510
make sure you like

1169
01:33:26,510 --> 01:33:27,890
and subscribe to the show.

1170
01:33:28,270 --> 01:33:29,590
And if you can leave a rating

1171
01:33:29,590 --> 01:33:31,630
on the podcasting platforms.

1172
01:33:31,630 --> 01:33:32,610
That goes a long way.

1173
01:33:32,990 --> 01:33:33,870
Last but not least,

1174
01:33:33,950 --> 01:33:35,210
if you want to get these episodes

1175
01:33:35,210 --> 01:33:37,630
a day early and ad free,

1176
01:33:37,630 --> 01:33:38,890
make sure you download

1177
01:33:38,890 --> 01:33:40,690
the Fountain podcasting app

1178
01:33:40,690 --> 01:33:42,650
and go to fountain.fm

1179
01:33:42,650 --> 01:33:43,450
to find that.

1180
01:33:44,210 --> 01:33:45,110
$5 a month,

1181
01:33:45,210 --> 01:33:46,230
get you every episode

1182
01:33:46,230 --> 01:33:47,950
a day early, ad free.

1183
01:33:48,490 --> 01:33:49,510
Helps the show,

1184
01:33:49,910 --> 01:33:51,050
gives you incredible value.

1185
01:33:51,990 --> 01:33:53,050
So please consider

1186
01:33:53,050 --> 01:33:55,270
subscribing via Fountain as well.

1187
01:33:55,830 --> 01:33:56,730
Thank you for your time.

1188
01:33:57,290 --> 01:33:58,130
And until next time.

1189
01:33:58,770 --> 01:33:58,970
Okay.

1190
01:33:59,590 --> 01:34:00,090
you