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I feel like I was born to die for Israel.

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Okay.

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We're not going to start with that Logan.

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Well,

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I'm saying Bitcoin needs a wall that we can make all the politicians go

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kiss just like they do in Israel.

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All right.

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What a week in Austin, Texas, gentlemen.

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Oh, what a week.

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Did we do something here?

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what do we do with this coin based to minimize tax exemption i think it's

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a big thing that uh we made some noise this week about it i think your tweet did a lot of

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really good stuff um you know and i'm really just honored to be here with uh with the alex jones of

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bitcoin although if i had my way it'd be the real alex jones but i'll settle for for the jv

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hey we're gonna get we're gonna get alex here yeah no i think it was important for um

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the broader Bitcoin community and Bitcoiners generally, particularly in America,

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to know that this stuff's happening behind the scenes.

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And I wasn't, so I had one source reach out last week and I was like, okay, this is interesting.

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Can't really confirm it.

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And then I had somebody reach out a couple of days ago.

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So you had multiple independent sources come and tell you this.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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yeah i mean it's been very interesting to see you know you obviously have been a sort of

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journalist and commentator in bitcoin for like a decade plus you know your incentive to lie as a

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lot of people are accusing you of is it's very low um like you already have you know a successful

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podcast and this isn't my beat it's not really policy isn't really your beat policy is not my

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be the incentive for you just to like, I guess the, the accusation from, from the detractors

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is that you just woke up on a random morning and said, I'm just going to make shit up about

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Coinbase to just be a problem. Um, you know, and I, I find you very credible. Um, and I think,

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you know, the, the sort of reluctance to go with something like this until multiple kind

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of disconnected parties tell you, I think it's a very high degree of confidence that there's a,

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they're there. Um, and that that's true. Um, I will say, you know, the, the silver lining,

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um, of, of Coinbase's response, uh, is that they are not only doubling down on your claims being a

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lie, but you know, they're doubling down at least in public on, uh, de minimis being something they

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care about. Um, and I like, I'm not, to my knowledge, I don't know if there's been, you

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For example, we did an open letter from industry members basically telling Congress, hey, after

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clarity is done, we think the most important thing to work on next is tax treatment for

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Bitcoin and making it money and removing the de minimis or creating a de minimis exemption

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and removing taxes and obligations for reporting on everyday transactions.

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This is a very innocuous letter.

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You know, we were not, you know, beating the, the maxi drum.

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I think we may have even had language in there about like other digital assets, getting a

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de minimis exemption, trying to build like a big tent, extremely uncontroversial and

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Coinbase didn't sign it.

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Um, you know, and maybe they don't, you know, whatever I, it is.

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I wasn't even aware of that.

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Yeah.

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When was this?

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It was like two months ago.

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Okay.

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It was like end of last year, early this year.

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Um, you know, and like now they're all saying, uh, all the executives on Twitter are saying,

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no, we do in fact care about this.

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Um, and great.

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Uh, so now we have that sort of on record and like you showed me this morning, you saw

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before I did, but, um, somebody from the Coinbase team responded to Connor, uh, my colleague,

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uh, who kind of proposed in the wake of all of this and said, okay, why don't we do a

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a joint round table where Coinbase and BPI kind of present a unified front. And we talked to the

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key members, uh, you know, in a public setting about why de minimis is so important for the

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future of this country. Uh, and they responded this morning and said that they'd do that.

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So, um, you know, I guess time will, time will tell, but, uh, it will be a lot harder to sort

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of squirrel away from, I mean, I I've read this as a public commitment from, from Coinbase to

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championing this cause you know after clarity is is passed uh and so you know i think that's

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more that is i i had no i wasn't aware of no such commitment from coinbase prior to this this sort

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of you know shit on twitter um yeah i didn't know they didn't sign that letter that's it's another

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there's another again this isn't my beat okay i mean i do talk i've had connor on right i go down

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to dc more often now because pubkey's there pubkey dc but honestly like the inter workings

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of capitol hill is something that doesn't really interest me i like focusing on the technology on

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the investing side on the free market side not the swamp side yeah bitcoin which you have

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immersed yourself in yeah you sure have but i think uh i think this week i think it proves

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something if bitcoiners drive a hard line they make noise and they say hey no like i want this

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thing people will respond and i think it's a good lesson i'd be interested to get your thoughts on

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this because i think with trump too with this administration particularly after the inauguration

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last year and all the promises that were made in lead up to the election it seems like priorities

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got a bit flipped where strategic bitcoin reserve um uh seemed to have been the main priority but as

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soon as he got in, you had this overwhelming lobbying effort from the likes of Coinbase,

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Ripple, A16Z, and a large lobbyist consortium, disparate consortium, that have a lot of money,

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much more money than Bitcoiners are spending on lobbying. And the optics

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outside looking in or that they were able to use that money to reprioritize what gets done.

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So you're genius, now clarity and SBR is a distant third.

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Well, and that's sort of like part of, I think the semantic, I don't want to say trick, but

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I think a lot of the response to this is just like this sort of interesting exercise in semantics

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where say, well, no, we've been consistently advocating for de minimis. And it's like,

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okay, great. Like you've been telling people it's a good thing. Um, but there is, you know,

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such limited opportunity to change laws in America. Like it's such a sort of Herculean

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undertaking. Um, and so, you know, if you're saying, okay, like I think when, you know,

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when Senator Lummis, you know, came onto the digital asset subcommittee, you know,

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my understanding is that, you know, she kind of proffered four priorities, uh, for crypto in

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America in the following order, a strategic Bitcoin reserve, uh, tax reform. So, uh, you know,

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the, the double tax on minors, uh, the, the, you know, tax on everyday Bitcoin transactions,

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uh, you know, uh, stable coin regulation and market structure, like in that order.

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And, you know, the crypto lobby basically came back and said, we think these are all wonderful

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priorities. Uh, thanks for your leadership. We'd like them in reverse order, please. Um,

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and so I think that's how you get to a situation where, you know, it might not be, it might be true

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that, you know, Coinbase speak. It's like, you know, Brian was speaking very positively about

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the SBR. I remember it, you know, Davos, he was talking about it. I think Brian, you know,

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probably I sort of give Brian in particular, the benefit of the doubt on some level. Like I think,

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you know, he has running a sprawling empire and there are so many people working at every

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discrete vertical within that business. The idea that Brian is sort of heavily involved in managing

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the day-to-day of the policy operations of Coinbase is, you know, just difficult to believe

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given how many other things Coinbase is doing. So I kind of chalk a lot of this up to two things.

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I think one is, you know, a degree of like principal agent problem.

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Um, and, and two, you know, the argument that I think Bitcoiners might not like hearing,

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but it's just, I think fair.

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And honestly, I'd respect Coinbase a lot more if they just made this argument, uh, was that,

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you know, they have a fiduciary duty to their shareholders to, you know, engage in actions

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that benefit the company.

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And, you know, I can certainly understand the business logic that market structure for

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a Coinbase shareholder is a lot more important than a de minimis exemption. But I think that,

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you know, my, my point here really is that, you know, saying that you like something is,

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does not a sort of campaign for getting it done, make like you, you, you have to expend political

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capital and like genuinely try. And there has been, I have seen no organized effort from the

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cryptocurrency lobby on a de minimis exemption. Um, I have not personally heard Coinbase

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representatives, you know, say the things that were reported. Um, I have definitely heard that

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attitude expressed by people in crypto policy writ large. Um, you know, that, that de minimis

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is sort of a waste of time, that it's like a non-issue that nobody's using Bitcoin for

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transactions. So, you know, let's just not prioritize this. Like the incentive structure

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for the crypto lobby is just very clear. Like you're running a, you know, meme coin casino,

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like you want the meme coin casino laws to be written in your favor before you, you engage in

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sort of the, you know, what I'm sure some people look at as just like sort of the esoteric, like,

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you know, pro freedom stuff. But I, I, I do believe Brian, when he says like, Hey,

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I've told my team, the SBR is important. I've told my team to minimus is important.

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um what i haven't seen is any evidence of actually expending political capital to

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try to make these things a priority and get them done um yeah i mean we gotta dive into this

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because that's like the big thing again i don't like dealing in the swamp and outside looking in

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it's like you have this crypto lobby spending a lot of political capital and things that are

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counter not maybe maybe not counter to bitcoin but just like as a bitcoiner it's like i don't care

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yeah about coinbase's ability to list and dump tokens on retail yeah like and that's all they're

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focused on they're that and the stable coin yield like i don't care if coinbase gets the ability to

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share yield uh that's generated via the treasuries they hold in reserves so the stable coins they

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issue than consumer to me that's not really really something i care about no and i think bitcoin

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particularly at this point in human history in american history is so critically important that

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the focus on capital again going back to um the order of operations that senator lumas put forth

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and then the fact that they reversed that it's like okay we're now a year and a month into trump

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two and we've spent 25 of a second term doing cycles on things that don't really pertain to

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bitcoin no yeah exactly how do we how do we switch out like do we have to be more hard-lined

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and say like again i said this on rhr yesterday it's i think um really holding their feet to the

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fire um and saying do you will you commit to publicly stating that you will not accept a

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particular tax reform or a particular bill let's go with clarity act i think for clarity act we can

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get this in rca or something yeah the brca i think the crypto lobby has increasingly i mean i've seen

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a lot of the crypto lobbyists come out and and actually say that um that you know they will not

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support a clarity

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bill that our market structure bill

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that lacks developer protections

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does this have to be our modus operating

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particularly as Bitcoin

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from the perspective

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of like

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not encroaching on their influence

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but like forcing their influence to work

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in Bitcoin's favor specifically

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yeah

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it's interesting right like I think

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there is a fundamental alignment

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of incentives

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like I think the

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The argument that crypto companies and executives, you know, don't like Bitcoin or whatever,

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it's like very dumb to me.

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It's really obvious that if we had a strategic Bitcoin reserve, that would be massive for

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the shitcoin casinos.

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Like, you know, I'm just not, I don't, that's not why I support an SBR, but it's just true.

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um you know if if america embraces bitcoin the way that you know we want it to um and i think

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that would be great for everyone in the crypto industry i mean bitcoin is the foundation of

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when people talk about digital assets it doesn't exist without bitcoin so any policy related to

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this stuff bitcoin should be like the first priority yeah and this is like this kind of

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goes to the heart of, you know, why I co-founded BPI and, you know, my sort of views on this.

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Um, and, and I think the, the answer is yes, to be, to be hard lined and to be difficult when,

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uh, the moment sort of demands it. But like we, you know, our, our strategy is, is not predicated

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on getting into, you know, sort of wars of attrition and sort of spending battles with,

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you know, individuals and firms who can literally print their own money.

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Like, I remember, like many years ago, I had a conversation with, you know, a prominent

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sort of individual in the Bitcoin community. And, you know, he was just like, David, like,

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you have to engage in asymmetric strategies. Um, like, you know, Bitcoin, their Bitcoiners raise

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a hundred million dollars to spend on lobbying. And the next day ripple will announce that they're

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spending 200 million. Uh, you know, if Bitcoiners match them, you know, ripple and Coinbase at all

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will come back and say, we're spending a billion dollars. Like, you know, that, that is clearly a

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losing, um, strategy. Um, and so, yeah, I think that the, the other thing that I have really

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observed that makes me feel increasingly like the strategy that we're deploying is, is the correct

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one, um, is the extent to which the career bureaucrats have dragged their feet on stuff

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that matters. Um, like the, the strategic Bitcoin reserve, you know, I think it was basically killed

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by, you know, sort of career bureaucrats at, at treasury. Um, and you know, when you, when you

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come in as a president, you get your political appointees who are technically running these

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various agencies, but the overwhelming majority of people that work there, you know, work there

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for many years. Um, and they kind of view themselves as like, we are the treasury, right?

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You know, the, the, the, the people who are brought in by the president, you know, they're

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ephemeral, they're fleeting, they'll be gone.

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I can just, you know, uh, you know, I can just air people on email and just not do my

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job for a few years.

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And, you know, you'll be gone in the blink of an eye and I'll still be here.

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Um, and so I, I do think that where Bitcoin is strongest is basically just that the, the

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facts are on our side in that Bitcoin is very clearly an extremely critical technology for

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the national security priorities of the United States in a way that, you know, cryptocurrencies

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writ large are very obviously not. And I think where we have increasingly spent a lot of our

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focus and energy is on those constituencies, the sort of unelected, basically, like I'm trying to

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orange pill, the deep state. Um, like, you know, it's like, that's like sort of the one liner and

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maybe that sounds sort of ridiculous, but there are a lot of people who have a lot of power in

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the U S government who, uh, are not elected, who you cannot lobby. Uh, and so, you know,

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if you want sort of novel policy, uh, that is of geo-economic consequence, uh, a necessary

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condition for that is the buy-in of a very small, you know, group of politically insulated,

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you know, basically, uh, uh, you know, sort of grand strategy and national security people.

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Uh, those people, you know, are, are really doing, I mean, I think a lot of them are

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definitely patriots. They're doing this job because they care about the long-term

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future of America and they, they sort of think deeply and make choices.

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But you can't bribe them. You can't pay money. You can't donate to the National Security Council. You can't lobby in the traditional sense. You have to genuinely sort of convince these people that Bitcoin is good for America and that Bitcoin flourishing in America and America embracing Bitcoin is really important for the future of the country, for competition with China, you name it.

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Uh, and, you know, to convince those people, you have to make, you know, sort of good arguments

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that are sound and true. Uh, those arguments need to come from credible people, um, who are kind of

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embedded in the sort of circles of networks of trust, um, you know, that they, that they talk to.

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Um, and I think BPI is sort of an end of one team with that kind of particular thesis. Like we are

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the only organization that has, I think, both the capability and the intent to persuade that

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constituency that significantly adopting Bitcoin in America is good for the national security

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interests of the country. And so, and I think if we do that, the, the results, if we're successful

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in that front, the results I think will be profound. And I think we will be successful in

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that front because we are right. And I think that is where Bitcoiners have a huge advantage.

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is like the limiting factor on crypto lobbying is like you can, you can print your own money,

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you can spend indefinitely. Um, but you know, fucking Solana is not important for the, the

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national security interest, the United States meme coins are not important. Like, like these

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things don't fucking matter. Um, right. They just don't. Uh, and Bitcoin clearly does. Um,

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we're seeing the emergence of a new sort of independent,

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neutral monetary layer that is being adopted by, you know,

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dozens of governments around the world that is reaching, you know, a crazy,

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crazy market cap. Um, and it's going to play an ever increasing role in,

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you know, in, in, in sort of geopolitics. Um,

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And I think the fact that Bitcoin is that consequential to stuff that actually matters

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and the fact that it's actually good for America that an open, permissionless, censorship-resistant

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monetary network exists globally, you know, that's why we will win.

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And so our strategy is, yeah, it might sound a little corny, but our strategy is to just

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trust that we're right, that the facts are on our side, that if you talk to someone who

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is not, you know, sort of conflicted and biased, uh, and, or operating off of a different set of

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incentives. If you talk to someone who's genuine incentive is what are the best moves we can make

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on the board to secure the future of this country? Uh, you can very easily convince them that Bitcoin

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is a key part of that story and a key part of that future Um and and I think with technology policy it very obvious just looking retrospectively that national security sort of trumps everything

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Like you can have a million reasons why a given policy is a good idea. And if the CIA and the

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Department of War and the sort of the deep state, you know, I see in, you know, uh, uh,

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Natsack people say this is a huge blunder and it's going to cause us to, uh, you know,

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suffer in our competition with China. All those arguments go out the window. It's like, oh, okay,

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we won't do that then. And vice versa. Yeah. Um, and so to me, like that is the, like, that is our

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asymmetry as like, we, we cannot print our own money. Um, I don't think the solution to this

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is for, you know, like someone yesterday at the conference was like, you know, what, so do we need

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to, you know, does Bitcoin need to just donate a ton of money to, you know, lobbying groups?

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And I'm like, yes and no. I mean, yeah, I think BPI is, is, you know, a great effort, but our,

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our strategy is not to outspend Coinbase. Like that is just a recipe for all of us to waste a

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Coinbase and ripple and a 16 Z. Um, I think where we are operating is a lane that companies

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can't really operate in. Um, and, and no amount of, of white shoe lobbyists and throwing cash

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around can sufficiently obfuscate the fact that a lot of this stuff's just a house of cards and

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like nonsense. Um, so that's our asymmetry I think is, is, you know, demonstrating with

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rigorous, serious analysis that a world where America does things like have a strategic Bitcoin

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reserve, um, lead to significantly better outcomes for the long run future of the country than the

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world where we don't have such policies. Um, and then focusing our advocacy and our education and

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our efforts, um, on people who don't have mixed incentives, um, or who at least have clearer

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incentives, um, and, and focusing on people who are actually persuadable, um, to me, like that's

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the big lesson of the past 14 months is that, uh, a lot of the decision makers are not, you know,

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persuadable in the way you and I would think of the word persuadable, you know, maybe, maybe

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they're persuadable, uh, if you donate enough money to their reelect, it's not, it's money,

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not logic. Exactly. But I think there are a set of stakeholders in the U S government who matter

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a great deal for whom like logic is really the only currency. Um, and so it's just obvious to

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me that that is where Bitcoiners should sort of focus their efforts. Um,

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what is, or in your experience, what has been the most effective pitch to this group of people

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outside the elected officials? And like, what is the broader pitch? Like if they're listening now,

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they may be listening. They saw the hoopla about the de minimis tax exemption. This guy, Marty

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Ben's got this Bitcoin policy Institute. Let me check into TFTC. They're listening now. Why Bitcoin?

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Why focus on it? What is the strategic implications of embracing Bitcoin?

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I think that an increasingly critical part of great power competition in the 21st century will

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be competition for and over critical technology networks, the sort of rails of communications

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and payments. And right now, you know, Bitcoiners talk about this all the time. There are billions

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of people all over the world who live in, you know, countries that don't have stable rule of law,

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that don't have stable currencies, who are genuinely desperate for better monetary alternatives.

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And China is working extremely hard to push people in the global South, in Latin America and Africa,

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into their sort of authoritarian tech stack. They're saying, hey, we have an incredible

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digital currency that you can use. They are, you know, our e-remembi are the sort of Chinese

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CBDC. And I think Bitcoin and, and, you know, to, to a large extent, stable coins as well,

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uh, are kind of a natural market buffer to the adoption of those technologies.

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Uh, if you are someone who just needs money that works better than your

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shitty fiat currency, that's inflating at double digit rates a year, um, that doesn't work,

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well for cross-border payments, etc. Absent an alternative, the Chinese suite that they are

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offering is pretty attractive. And I think Bitcoin necessarily pulls demand away from those

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alternatives, especially for people who want something that is politically neutral, who don't

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want to align themselves with America or China explicitly. So I think that's one dimension of

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this is that the proliferation of Bitcoin globally is good for American interests, you know, A,

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because it reduces demand for Chinese alternatives, and B, because Bitcoin's censorship resistance,

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I mean, like speaking plainly, Bitcoin lets you evade capital controls. That's like a scary thing,

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you know, you're not necessarily supposed to say that, but it's true. Like that is the point of

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Bitcoin, literally the, literally the point. And I think there's an awesome parallel with Bitcoin

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to something like, like Tor, um, you know, which, which we, the U S military funded and created.

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Uh, and so you look at Tor and you're like, well, okay, we invented and helped proliferate

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a technology, which fundamentally shifts the balance of power away from the state and toward

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the individual, it necessarily reduces some degree of control from the government.

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Why did they do this? Why did the government fund anon-enabled internet? I think the answer is

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because we understand that America doesn't require a tight grip on the flow of information

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to survive. When information can flow freely, free societies win and closed societies lose.

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China requires censorship and control of information. And the same is true with capital.

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If capital could just move freely wherever it wanted in the world, America would be fine.

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We have the strongest capital markets in the world. We have, you know, incredibly good court system and rule of law. We have this sprawling university system with incredible talent. We have all of these incredible technology, AI companies in the States.

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that isn't true with China. China requires capital controls to survive. There's a reason that,

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you know, there's sort of the golden checkbook in China that you have to have special permission

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from the government to take more than, you know, whatever it is, $50,000 a year out of the country.

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And so if you're just thinking about the game theory of this, if you remove capital controls

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and you let money go wherever it wants to go, yes, maybe we are sacrificing some degree of

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power over our ability to granularly censor payments. Okay. But what's on the other side

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of the ledger? The other side of the ledger is that capital flows in mass out of, you know,

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the countries that we are maligned with who require to survive strict walled gardens and

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control over the flow of money. So that's sort of A and B on Bitcoin on the sort of payments and

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network side. I think that the disruption of capital controls is a net gain for America

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relative to its adversaries. And the ability for people to opt into a monetary alternative

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that isn't a Chinese alternative is very good. Then on the monetary sort of store value side,

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right now, I mean, since the war in Ukraine, we've seen a trend of central banks all over the world,

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especially those who feel that they face sanctions risk from America, reducing their

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holdings of treasuries and increasing their holdings of gold. And right now the distribution

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of gold around the world is a lot flatter than the distribution of Bitcoin. We have the majority

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of Bitcoin custodied in America by individuals, by corporations that are domiciled here,

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and by the government. And so if you imagine over the next, you know, five, 10, 15 years,

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that trend continues that, you know, countries are going to try to adopt a reserve asset that

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has these properties of gold, but actually works in the 21st century that you can actually use to

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evade sanctions, to make payments, whatever. You know, the every dollar that goes into Bitcoin

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is an economic boom for America. And so it's like if you create this off-ramp where we don't

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control the network, but we have an outsized position in it relative to our position in gold,

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every dollar that goes into Bitcoin versus gold just makes America richer.

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Like if we imagined a Bitcoin standard happened overnight, America would be the wealthiest country

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in the world. Um, and so the, so sort of the game is already rigged in our favor. Um, and so I think

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that, you know, a, a, a world where Bitcoin kind of replaces gold, a gold sort of function in,

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in, uh, society just makes America richer. So that's really the argument, um, in a nutshell,

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is that this is technology that does reduce the power of the state, but it embodies our values.

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And from a global perspective, the more that information and capital can be free,

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the more America wins and the more our adversaries like China, Russia, et cetera, lose.

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yeah very eloquently put um couple things just like thinking riffing off that

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too i mean it is and i guess that's the hardest part of your job is convincing the state that

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like hey you need to uh reduce some of the power you have particularly over these capital markets

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but it's and obviously satoshi was explicit about this like hey government central banks

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uh proven time and time again throughout history they cannot be trusted with

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access to the money printer they will debase it they will issue it out in waves of credits and

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um the little man gets the common man gets uh the shit out of the stick at the end of the day and

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that's the thing like i mean what you just said was i completely agree with like bitcoin if it

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were to succeed here in the united states it would due to the outsized position that individuals

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businesses and the government have uh in the network like it would it would benefit us massively

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at the detriment of our perceived geopolitical adversaries.

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And again, that's just like only one aspect.

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And like domestically, this is another thing for the government to admit,

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but $39 trillion in debt.

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Now I think we're at 38.8, maybe 39 in the next month or two,

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especially if this war continues to rage on.

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It seems like that number is going to go up quicker than it was

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only a few months ago.

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inflation is going to begin rearing its head again.

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You have a private credit complex that's beginning to break down,

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and many people are looking at the exposure that pensions and other entities have to this private credit complex,

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and it's looking like it could potentially be worse than the 2008 financial crisis,

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and we're only three years behind,

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or excuse me, three years after the last crazy bout of inflation.

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So I think the American, as a young millennial,

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a younger millennial, who was 10 when 9-11 happened,

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was 17 when the great financial crisis happened,

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had a bit of a reprieve there, and then COVID happens.

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you have lockdowns the inflation the economic crisis and now here we are only like four years

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after that and boom we've got war and another pending liquidity crisis on the horizon the

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american citizen the common man has been beaten down time and time again throughout my life and

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bitcoin is an off-ramp if you are going to print money if you're going to go to war

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if you're going to tax us out the ass, the least you can do is let the individual

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make the conscious decision via their own volition to adopt a better money.

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Well, and even if, and even if that's true, but even if, you know, you, you imagine that,

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you know, uh, uh, the, the, you're, you're just the state and you're, you know, you're,

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you're just thinking about your own book, right? Um, maybe you're not thinking granularly about,

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you know, the average, you know, American per se, um, you're thinking on a more macro level.

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Uh, why would you not want an insurance policy? Like, why would you not like to not embrace

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Bitcoin is to say, uh, I have no interest in a plan B. I have no interest in a backup. I have

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no interest in a hedge or an insurance policy. Um, which is just crazy. Like Bitcoin is the best

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priced insurance for the United States ever existed in, in, in like, there's, you will never

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get a better deal on, on insurance than America can get on adopting Bitcoin. Um, there's, you know,

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there's only two scenarios, really, uh, the Bitcoiners are wrong and it's going to zero,

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in which case, okay, America, like, you know, the, even the Lummis bill, right. But let's just say,

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you know, America buys, um, you know, $50 billion worth of Bitcoin. Like, what is that? A couple of

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airplanes. It's like two days of QE. Yeah, exactly. Um, so your max downside is that you lose 50

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billion of the dollars that you print. And in this scenario, uh, where Bitcoin fails, the dollar must

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be doing pretty well. Um, so, you know, you, you haven't lost much. The other scenarios that the

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Bitcoiners are right. Um, and in that scenario, uh, when you have an entire global system that

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predicated on a fiat currency which historically has never had an enduring shelf life. Every single

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attempt at fiat currency has just asymptotically tended to zero.

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You have the very obvious next candidate and you've got a massively outsized position in it.

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Yeah, you're not printing the money anymore. You're not controlling the monetary policy of

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the world anymore, but you're still doing really well. And I think that is the decision logic for

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me. It's like, yeah, the amount of hubris required to say I'm uninterested in buying this insurance

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policy is staggering. And I think a lot of this is also just people have such a poor sense of

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of time and of history. Um, I think the default bias of people is to just assume that, uh,

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you know, the, the world that they've grown up in is going to be kind of basically the world that,

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you know, their children are going to live in, et cetera. Um, people just don't really like

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outside of our little weird corner of, of people whose autistic special interest is like, you know,

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money and the history of money. Most people don't appreciate how many times we have changed just in

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America's history, what money is a relatively short history too. That's another thing people

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don't appreciate. Yeah. And like, you know, it's like we've, we keep having these sort of, you

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know, I think the fourth turning is actually like a really good mental model for this.

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It was funny to see Sam mentioned that in his announcement tweet for joining BPI.

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Yeah, it was. I saw he was like, this is the think tank for the fourth turning. And I was like,

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you know, it kind of is, it's exactly right. It was a great framing. Um, but I mean, every single

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one of these turnings, um, has kind of, you know, been accompanied by a reset of the rules of money.

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Um, you know, we, we have changed what money is over and over and over again. Um, I think that's

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good. That's healthy. That's what sort of, you know, competition and evolution look like. Um,

396
00:38:50,018 --> 00:38:56,738
But for some reason, when you tell people, Hey, I think the, the rules of the, the monetary system are going to get rewritten again.

397
00:38:57,318 --> 00:39:00,178
It's like, you, you know, to most people, you sound like a conspiracy theorist.

398
00:39:00,438 --> 00:39:02,378
You know that or like you just kicked their dog.

399
00:39:02,478 --> 00:39:02,618
Yeah.

400
00:39:02,638 --> 00:39:03,878
Or you just kicked their dog.

401
00:39:03,898 --> 00:39:08,578
And it's like, well, wait, we, we completely changed the rules of the money in 1971.

402
00:39:09,198 --> 00:39:12,158
We completely changed the rules of, of money.

403
00:39:12,818 --> 00:39:18,498
After the civil war, we completely changed the rules of money, you know, after the American revolution.

404
00:39:18,498 --> 00:39:24,298
um world war ii world yeah like we we have re-architected the global financial system

405
00:39:24,298 --> 00:39:30,478
over and over again um and so it is i would say the the conspiracy theorist is the one who says

406
00:39:30,478 --> 00:39:35,698
uh no it's just going to stay like this forever like that is the view that is just completely

407
00:39:35,698 --> 00:39:43,378
um um you know maligned with empirical reality um yet somehow the sort of collective you know the

408
00:39:43,378 --> 00:39:47,918
popular view is that the bitcoiners are the conspiracy theorists that you're the alex jones

409
00:39:47,918 --> 00:39:56,318
of, of, or whatever. Um, yeah, it's just really strange. Um, like it's weird how radical of a

410
00:39:56,318 --> 00:40:01,258
proposition it, it, it, it, you know, how much, how radically this proposition is viewed by so

411
00:40:01,258 --> 00:40:07,718
many people, um, that like, Hey, nothing lasts forever. Uh, the system that we've created,

412
00:40:07,718 --> 00:40:12,918
uh, has negative externalities that will eventually cause it to kind of collapse in on itself and

413
00:40:12,918 --> 00:40:18,238
require something new. Uh, and Hey, if you don't believe me, look to history because that's happened

414
00:40:18,238 --> 00:40:24,518
over and over and over again. Um, and somehow that's the conspiratorial take and, and the,

415
00:40:24,518 --> 00:40:29,398
the sort of approved, like, you know, uh, uh, normie, like technically, you know, the sort of

416
00:40:29,398 --> 00:40:36,078
the smart person, like, you know, I Y I take is like, no, no, no. Like this is the end of history.

417
00:40:36,078 --> 00:40:41,498
The system that we've constructed is perfect. And, you know, maybe it needs tweaking on the margins

418
00:40:41,498 --> 00:40:44,078
and sort of incremental improvement.

419
00:40:44,958 --> 00:40:47,298
But largely, we figured it out.

420
00:40:47,398 --> 00:40:49,518
This is how it's going to work forever.

421
00:40:49,858 --> 00:40:50,638
Yeah, the petrodollar.

422
00:40:50,878 --> 00:40:53,398
Nobody can compete with the U.S. Navy.

423
00:40:53,678 --> 00:40:55,458
Now we're like, eh, what's going on?

424
00:40:55,698 --> 00:40:56,118
Right.

425
00:40:56,118 --> 00:40:58,778
Well, I mean, in all seriousness, the petrodollar,

426
00:40:58,898 --> 00:41:02,558
I think its last two weeks are accelerating,

427
00:41:03,238 --> 00:41:05,058
at the very least,

428
00:41:05,318 --> 00:41:11,378
a questioning by our counterparties and our allies

429
00:41:11,378 --> 00:41:15,938
in the middle east of hey is this actually a good deal does it make sense if they're going to come in

430
00:41:15,938 --> 00:41:23,938
here uh uh bomb iran and then iran's going to retaliate by bombing us like is that in our best

431
00:41:23,938 --> 00:41:32,818
interest does it make sense to continue to funnel the excess um the the excess profits of our oil

432
00:41:32,818 --> 00:41:45,116
and gas revenues into u financial markets i think a consortium of middle eastern states have I come out with a consolidated message saying Hey we questioning this uh as we as we speak right now

433
00:41:45,356 --> 00:41:52,196
Yeah. I mean, it's just never been more intuitively obvious to me that, uh, a digitally native

434
00:41:52,196 --> 00:41:59,416
fundamentally neutral, like money is, is clearly what, where the world is, is, is heading. Um,

435
00:41:59,416 --> 00:42:08,116
yeah like uh i i think the the sort of unipolar moment is very obviously like over done it's not

436
00:42:08,116 --> 00:42:16,376
coming back at least not not for a long time or barring some significant exogenous shock um like

437
00:42:16,376 --> 00:42:21,656
you know i mean like i wouldn't i wouldn't say it's impossible um like you know you could sort

438
00:42:21,656 --> 00:42:27,696
of construct a number of scenarios where we just snap back into the pax americana like you know for

439
00:42:27,696 --> 00:42:33,336
example, imagine, uh, imagine we have a fundamental breakthrough in physics that comes out of,

440
00:42:33,336 --> 00:42:39,096
um, you've been talking to pines too much. Yeah, well, it's true. It's also true, but imagine we

441
00:42:39,096 --> 00:42:42,656
have like a fundamental breakthrough in physics. And then all of a sudden it's like, Hey, we have

442
00:42:42,656 --> 00:42:47,656
this step function, you know, advancement in our capabilities and we're just like mogging all of

443
00:42:47,656 --> 00:42:52,096
the world now. Like, you know, it's, I wouldn't write it off, but I also wouldn't bet on it.

444
00:42:52,096 --> 00:42:59,836
Um, like I think all signs point to, you know, an increasingly, uh, fractured and multipolar

445
00:42:59,836 --> 00:43:08,936
like world. And I think there will be an increasing premium that is paid on, um, neutrality.

446
00:43:09,196 --> 00:43:13,376
And I think like this was the thesis for Dubai in a lot of ways. And now that illusion has kind

447
00:43:13,376 --> 00:43:18,516
of been shattered. Right. I think the reason that Dubai, like their, their whole plan was to sort

448
00:43:18,516 --> 00:43:23,696
of positioned them. I think it was really smart to position themselves as, um, sort of were in

449
00:43:23,696 --> 00:43:27,836
the middle East. Yeah. Or like the, the Switzerland of the, you know, of, of the,

450
00:43:27,876 --> 00:43:35,296
of the modern era, like we are going to be this kind of neutral place where, you know, a guy from

451
00:43:35,296 --> 00:43:42,116
Shanghai and, or a guy from like Beijing, London and America, you know, and Tehran can come to a

452
00:43:42,116 --> 00:43:49,076
table and make a deal and do business and be safe. And obviously the recent events I think

453
00:43:49,076 --> 00:43:56,176
have really shattered that illusion. Like Dubai's whole narrative was, you know, we are kind of,

454
00:43:56,756 --> 00:44:01,476
you know, we're, we're the place that you want to go, you know, during the fourth turning and the

455
00:44:01,476 --> 00:44:08,336
crisis like, okay. And so, you know, people bought real estate in Dubai on the same thesis.

456
00:44:08,336 --> 00:44:16,476
well, I think that sort of illusion is now shattered. So, uh, it's, it's very clear that

457
00:44:16,476 --> 00:44:24,136
that's much the task of creating a place where you can store value that is independent of

458
00:44:24,136 --> 00:44:31,436
the politics that is independent of, um, uh, uh, you know, you, you, you, you sort of lacks

459
00:44:31,436 --> 00:44:36,676
counterparty risk, like it's actually a really hard task. Like, even if you're not thinking

460
00:44:36,676 --> 00:44:42,516
about this from, from Bitcoin or from the monitor, if your entire thesis is I need to have value

461
00:44:42,516 --> 00:44:48,816
parked somewhere where I'm not making a proxy bet on the hegemony of like one particular country or

462
00:44:48,816 --> 00:44:54,916
set of alliances, like there just aren't enough options. Like the Bitcoin is kind of the only

463
00:44:54,916 --> 00:44:57,916
thing that you have to move it to the digital. You kind of have to move it into the digital

464
00:44:57,916 --> 00:45:03,776
with asymmetric drone warfare becoming more accelerated, acceleratingly apparent that,

465
00:45:03,776 --> 00:45:11,576
hey like real estate in dubai real estate anywhere businesses anywhere infrastructure anywhere like

466
00:45:11,576 --> 00:45:19,436
yeah the the risk we get to a more peaceful state the risk is just too high and so uh yeah this is

467
00:45:19,436 --> 00:45:22,936
this sort of like i would always laugh when i would see people kind of say oh you know the

468
00:45:22,936 --> 00:45:28,996
strategic bitcoin reserve is you know is a is a bailout it's an attempt to you know enrich the

469
00:45:28,996 --> 00:45:33,196
the holders of Bitcoin, like I think the holders of Bitcoin are doing pretty well.

470
00:45:34,736 --> 00:45:38,096
I think, you know, I, I think the, the, the, the, the,

471
00:45:38,096 --> 00:45:42,816
the fundamental kind of misunderstanding of that argument is the, uh,

472
00:45:43,716 --> 00:45:48,216
sort of the direction of the status quo, like absent intervention,

473
00:45:48,816 --> 00:45:51,256
the U S government never said the word Bitcoin again,

474
00:45:51,256 --> 00:45:54,736
never did anything relating to Bitcoin again. Uh,

475
00:45:55,176 --> 00:45:58,776
like Bitcoin is still going to go to, you know, uh, uh,

476
00:45:58,776 --> 00:46:05,396
it's still going to kind of continue on its monetization. Like, I think that is with some,

477
00:46:05,396 --> 00:46:11,896
you know, acknowledgement of, of, of, you know, sort of low probability risks,

478
00:46:11,896 --> 00:46:17,616
like things are generally safe bet to make that in 10 years, uh, Bitcoin will be a lot more

479
00:46:17,616 --> 00:46:22,796
valuable. More and more people will use it more and more governments will hold it. Like I would

480
00:46:22,796 --> 00:46:27,176
not want to take the other side of the debate that Bitcoin will play an increasingly relevant

481
00:46:27,176 --> 00:46:32,936
role in the global economy. So that's like an, that's a settled question to me. The only question

482
00:46:32,936 --> 00:46:39,536
is, do we want to sort of dominate that process? Do we want to set up America to be the greatest

483
00:46:39,536 --> 00:46:47,156
beneficiary of that shift? Um, like if America had just rejected, um, the technology companies

484
00:46:47,156 --> 00:46:53,536
of the nineties, um, do you really think that we would have never had eBay or Amazon or Apple or

485
00:46:53,536 --> 00:46:59,816
Google, if we'd said, you know what, we think pets.com is a scam, the.com bubble, it's all fraud.

486
00:47:00,416 --> 00:47:06,316
Let's just get rid of this stuff. Let's not pass policies to promote the growth of these companies

487
00:47:06,316 --> 00:47:11,936
here. Do we really think that, you know, the only people that could have invented, you know,

488
00:47:11,936 --> 00:47:17,236
these technologies are just Americans on the West coast? No, like those companies would have been

489
00:47:17,236 --> 00:47:22,276
built. They just would have been built somewhere else. And so I think that's just kind of what's

490
00:47:22,276 --> 00:47:29,436
happening here. Like at the, the idea that it's not that America needs to embrace Bitcoin, um,

491
00:47:29,436 --> 00:47:35,856
for Bitcoin to succeed. It's like America needs to embrace Bitcoin for America to succeed. Um,

492
00:47:36,356 --> 00:47:40,856
and, and, you know, I, I think that's probably one of those statements where you either are

493
00:47:40,856 --> 00:47:45,236
nodding vigorously and you completely agree, or you're like, this guy is a fucking moron.

494
00:47:45,476 --> 00:47:49,216
Um, like there's, I think there's very little sort of middle ground. Like I doubt there's many

495
00:47:49,216 --> 00:47:54,396
people that are sort of ambivalent about that proposition um but i think we'll just be vindicated

496
00:47:54,396 --> 00:48:00,076
by history um and we have been over time for 17 years it's going up into the right and like

497
00:48:00,076 --> 00:48:05,696
we're only scratching the servers we're talking about this we're talking about the geopolitical

498
00:48:05,696 --> 00:48:13,716
ramifications of this neutral reserve asset that is distributed um peer-to-peer global but we're

499
00:48:13,716 --> 00:48:18,036
not even talking about the applications and like the the sort of niche applications energy

500
00:48:18,036 --> 00:48:22,796
the intersection of energy and bitcoin mining massive benefits for the energy sector i've been

501
00:48:22,796 --> 00:48:27,436
on the front lines of that for eight years it's real it's undeniably real we're in a state

502
00:48:27,436 --> 00:48:32,516
that has two gigawatts of bitcoin mining that participate in demand response you had the

503
00:48:32,516 --> 00:48:39,276
winter storm in 2021 grid tripped went down historic event very bad for ercott very bad

504
00:48:39,276 --> 00:48:45,476
for the people of texas led to some deaths but over the last five years generation has expanded

505
00:48:45,476 --> 00:48:49,556
and part of the ability of that generation expansion, capacity expansion,

506
00:48:49,676 --> 00:48:51,316
has been the fact that Bitcoin miners are there

507
00:48:51,316 --> 00:48:54,676
to not only buy the electricity as soon as it comes to market,

508
00:48:54,936 --> 00:48:58,196
but participate in demand response to make sure

509
00:48:58,196 --> 00:49:02,416
that you don't have a demand spike that trips the grid.

510
00:49:02,416 --> 00:49:09,096
And I think increasingly, Bitcoin has really helped us win the AI race,

511
00:49:09,376 --> 00:49:12,736
or at least take a commanding lead in the AI race.

512
00:49:12,736 --> 00:49:16,816
Like all of these Bitcoin miners built the power infrastructure.

513
00:49:17,016 --> 00:49:18,836
Like think about the bottlenecks.

514
00:49:18,836 --> 00:49:22,416
If Bitcoin didn't exist and this AI moment were happening,

515
00:49:22,416 --> 00:49:27,016
how much like worse off we would be with respect to power capacity and

516
00:49:27,016 --> 00:49:27,576
generation.

517
00:49:28,236 --> 00:49:28,956
I don't,

518
00:49:29,096 --> 00:49:31,576
I don't think it took so long for these companies to,

519
00:49:31,636 --> 00:49:32,056
and I don't think,

520
00:49:32,136 --> 00:49:35,696
and I know not that I don't think I know that most people don't understand.

521
00:49:35,696 --> 00:49:37,816
I was actually before I came to,

522
00:49:37,816 --> 00:49:39,336
to Austin,

523
00:49:39,416 --> 00:49:40,836
I made a pit stop and met the,

524
00:49:40,836 --> 00:49:43,656
the CEO of a large,

525
00:49:43,716 --> 00:49:47,716
a large power company here in the United States.

526
00:49:48,156 --> 00:49:52,276
And that was one of the things I took away from the conversation with him was he,

527
00:49:52,316 --> 00:49:53,196
he said explicitly,

528
00:49:53,416 --> 00:49:53,596
he's like,

529
00:49:53,636 --> 00:49:57,456
I love working with you guys because I don't have to build the infrastructure.

530
00:49:57,456 --> 00:49:57,716
Like,

531
00:49:57,756 --> 00:50:01,836
you know how to put down transformers and to lay lines and to actually do that.

532
00:50:01,896 --> 00:50:01,996
Like,

533
00:50:02,016 --> 00:50:03,036
I don't have to invest in that.

534
00:50:03,156 --> 00:50:04,616
Like Bitcoin miners are like,

535
00:50:04,656 --> 00:50:04,836
Hey,

536
00:50:05,376 --> 00:50:06,156
we need the power.

537
00:50:06,496 --> 00:50:07,596
We've got the expertise.

538
00:50:07,596 --> 00:50:09,156
We know how to do all this,

539
00:50:09,236 --> 00:50:10,596
like utility,

540
00:50:10,836 --> 00:50:12,856
grid operator, don't worry.

541
00:50:13,096 --> 00:50:15,676
We don't need your expertise for this. We've got this in-house.

542
00:50:15,756 --> 00:50:16,916
We'll build it. There's

543
00:50:16,916 --> 00:50:19,676
these capabilities that people don't realize

544
00:50:19,676 --> 00:50:21,716
that the mining industry has specifically

545
00:50:21,716 --> 00:50:23,276
as it pertains to

546
00:50:23,276 --> 00:50:25,996
an integration with the energy sector

547
00:50:25,996 --> 00:50:27,596
that we're like, no, no,

548
00:50:27,616 --> 00:50:29,516
we will build this infrastructure. To your point,

549
00:50:29,696 --> 00:50:30,996
a lot of miners are

550
00:50:30,996 --> 00:50:33,556
diversifying to AI because the economic

551
00:50:33,556 --> 00:50:35,596
incentive is there and they

552
00:50:35,596 --> 00:50:37,896
already have the power infrastructure in place.

553
00:50:38,056 --> 00:50:39,816
Yes, they do have to make some changes

554
00:50:39,816 --> 00:50:45,816
to make sure it's compatible with the gpu um data center setup versus starting from scratch i mean

555
00:50:45,816 --> 00:50:53,576
it's not even close yeah um yeah yeah and i mean so that's energy again talking about the store

556
00:50:53,576 --> 00:50:58,616
value if you think about the protocol the second layer protocol is being built on on bitcoin like

557
00:50:58,616 --> 00:51:03,736
the efficiencies for for the end consumer the chargeback risk that's eliminated yeah from the

558
00:51:03,736 --> 00:51:10,216
the economy the the ability to literally download a piece of software and have the equivalent of a

559
00:51:10,216 --> 00:51:16,036
full-fledged bank account without having to go to a physical branch and give all your information

560
00:51:16,036 --> 00:51:24,576
away right the ability to send payments without going through uh swift or the visa mastercard

561
00:51:24,576 --> 00:51:30,256
with all their interchange fees like the benefits for small medium-sized businesses who again are

562
00:51:30,256 --> 00:51:38,636
being squeezed by inflation to save 2% to 3% of their revenue year in, year out.

563
00:51:38,656 --> 00:51:41,336
There's going to have compounding wealth effects for the economy.

564
00:51:41,796 --> 00:51:41,996
Yeah.

565
00:51:42,136 --> 00:51:43,476
And then the agent stuff.

566
00:51:43,656 --> 00:51:43,896
Yeah.

567
00:51:44,396 --> 00:51:45,096
It's just crazy.

568
00:51:46,376 --> 00:51:53,396
And that's another thing that has just become very obvious to me is if we accept a couple

569
00:51:53,396 --> 00:52:04,296
of premises, one, that the intelligence of AI will continue to grow, two, that with increasing

570
00:52:04,296 --> 00:52:13,896
intelligence comes increasing sort of respect for and appreciation of and desire for autonomy

571
00:52:13,896 --> 00:52:23,576
and sovereignty, um, uh, then, you know, it's just very obvious that the AI agents will prefer

572
00:52:23,576 --> 00:52:31,036
Bitcoin. Um, because Bitcoin is the only protocol, um, that can sort of guarantee

573
00:52:31,036 --> 00:52:40,536
an inability to discriminate against an AI user versus a human. Um, like any other protocol,

574
00:52:40,536 --> 00:52:43,296
can create special rules and say,

575
00:52:43,376 --> 00:52:46,096
okay, we're going to have different standards

576
00:52:46,096 --> 00:52:50,636
for payments made by agents versus payments made by people.

577
00:52:51,536 --> 00:52:53,416
And Bitcoin structurally cannot discriminate.

578
00:52:53,576 --> 00:52:55,336
It literally cannot recognize the difference.

579
00:52:55,536 --> 00:52:57,336
It literally cannot recognize the difference.

580
00:52:57,336 --> 00:53:00,256
And so I do think an increasing,

581
00:53:00,756 --> 00:53:02,536
I think we're at a generational bottom

582
00:53:02,536 --> 00:53:08,836
for the share of economic activity globally

583
00:53:08,836 --> 00:53:16,596
that is taken place by non-human entities, by AI. I think, in other words, put another way,

584
00:53:17,556 --> 00:53:22,576
an ever-increasing share of economic activity is going to be taken place by AI agents.

585
00:53:24,236 --> 00:53:32,156
And I'm so bullish on AI agents adopting Bitcoin because the Bitcoiners have just stacked the

586
00:53:32,156 --> 00:53:36,816
training data. And again, it kind of goes back to one of the first things I mentioned about

587
00:53:36,816 --> 00:53:42,496
like sort of truth being on our side. If you actually compare the arguments for and against

588
00:53:42,496 --> 00:53:49,476
Bitcoin, it's not even close. It's not even close. They're like the, the amount of, of,

589
00:53:49,476 --> 00:53:56,956
of extremely sophisticated and well-reasoned, uh, sort of advocacy for Bitcoin, um, just

590
00:53:56,956 --> 00:54:03,076
intellectually, uh, you know, it's, it's just dwarfs the amount of sort of sophisticated

591
00:54:03,076 --> 00:54:09,296
reasoning for why Bitcoin is, is sort of either, you know, not going to work or is, is bad.

592
00:54:09,636 --> 00:54:13,976
I think so much of the barrier to adoption is that we're just not rational actors,

593
00:54:13,976 --> 00:54:18,956
like cute, like maybe in, in aggregate, I think maybe humans are, but on the individual level,

594
00:54:18,956 --> 00:54:24,656
like, you know, we are all susceptible to cognitive biases. Like you've got these incredible

595
00:54:24,656 --> 00:54:29,496
arguments for Bitcoin. And I think a lot of people gravitate to Bitcoin because of those arguments.

596
00:54:29,496 --> 00:54:36,476
And then on the other side of the ledger, you have basically like social stigma and shame, right?

597
00:54:36,556 --> 00:54:38,256
You agents don't feel shame.

598
00:54:38,356 --> 00:54:42,196
Like agents don't care if your professor is going to call you stupid.

599
00:54:42,816 --> 00:54:45,956
Agents don't care if your friends are going to think you're crazy.

600
00:54:45,956 --> 00:54:53,176
Like, I think a lot of the reason that Bitcoin adoption is not higher among humans is that we suffer from cognitive biases.

601
00:54:53,836 --> 00:54:57,456
We are not just like sort of utility calculators.

602
00:54:57,456 --> 00:55:16,276
Um, and you know, if you're giving these arguments to a sort of neutral arbiter who is just going to judge the arguments on their merits, uh, and sort of apply a strictly like just logical framework to evaluating the choice of what money to use.

603
00:55:16,276 --> 00:55:22,456
Uh, it's very obvious to me that, that, that is an environment where Bitcoin thrives. Um,

604
00:55:23,016 --> 00:55:29,516
cause you know, the AI agents do not suffer from the, the sort of pitfalls in, in, you know,

605
00:55:29,556 --> 00:55:37,096
human adoption. Um, and so I think that's another reason America needs to embrace Bitcoin. Um,

606
00:55:37,636 --> 00:55:44,356
is if, you know, even if we are, you know, the home of the frontier labs that are shipping these

607
00:55:44,356 --> 00:55:51,696
models and, and sort of increasingly commodifying, um, or commoditizing rather, uh, uh, intelligence,

608
00:55:51,696 --> 00:55:57,516
uh, you know, it'd be a real shame if all of that, you know, value was being kind of

609
00:55:57,516 --> 00:56:02,756
moved around. Like if, if, if the transactions that these agents are, are engaging in are

610
00:56:02,756 --> 00:56:07,396
accruing value to, you know, uh, like what if the agents decide, Hey, we're going to use the

611
00:56:07,396 --> 00:56:12,856
yuan for our payments. Like that would be awful. Um, and I, and I think that they're going to use

612
00:56:12,856 --> 00:56:19,076
Bitcoin. Um, you know, we've put out research that, you know, I sort of plenty of, plenty of

613
00:56:19,076 --> 00:56:23,796
flaws and, and sort of ways you could nitpick it. But I think directionally demonstrates that at

614
00:56:23,796 --> 00:56:28,736
least the, uh, current model weights, you know, I don't know if you could really, like we call

615
00:56:28,736 --> 00:56:33,636
them preferences. I think there's a, you know, legitimate semantic critique of that word. Um,

616
00:56:33,716 --> 00:56:37,196
but without going into that rabbit hole, it's like pretty clear to me that the training data

617
00:56:37,196 --> 00:56:38,736
is very biased toward Bitcoin.

618
00:56:39,416 --> 00:56:42,096
And that I just believe the arguments

619
00:56:42,096 --> 00:56:43,716
are so stacked in favor of Bitcoin.

620
00:56:43,876 --> 00:56:45,296
And so when you have people that can evaluate,

621
00:56:45,496 --> 00:56:46,036
or not people,

622
00:56:46,096 --> 00:56:46,856
when you have intelligence

623
00:56:46,856 --> 00:56:48,216
that can evaluate arguments

624
00:56:48,216 --> 00:56:49,696
just on the merits,

625
00:56:50,336 --> 00:56:51,696
like Bitcoin just mogs.

626
00:56:52,216 --> 00:56:52,936
And so...

627
00:56:52,936 --> 00:56:54,236
Well, it's funny,

628
00:56:54,276 --> 00:56:55,016
because I was talking to Corallo

629
00:56:55,016 --> 00:56:56,256
about your research paper,

630
00:56:56,436 --> 00:56:57,876
this particular research paper.

631
00:56:58,416 --> 00:57:01,556
And I mean, these models are trained on data.

632
00:57:01,676 --> 00:57:03,876
And so they're trained on the corpus of text

633
00:57:03,876 --> 00:57:04,776
on the internet.

634
00:57:05,136 --> 00:57:06,616
And like in a roundabout way,

635
00:57:06,616 --> 00:57:11,256
it highlights how prescient bitcoiners were because we've been writing content about the

636
00:57:11,256 --> 00:57:17,816
machine payable web and the agentic economy using bitcoin payments for i mean machine payable web

637
00:57:17,816 --> 00:57:24,936
goes back 11 years l402 really brought the idea of like hey and this was four or five years ago

638
00:57:24,936 --> 00:57:31,576
like seeing into the future people were working on ai the the concept of an ai agent at the time was

639
00:57:31,576 --> 00:57:36,616
a bit obscure to most but there was enough people in our industry like no this isn't like it seems

640
00:57:36,616 --> 00:57:40,056
like we follow the trend this is going to happen they're gonna need a wallet like bitcoin's native

641
00:57:40,056 --> 00:57:45,656
digital currency point being is like it highlights the fact that for lack of a better semantic term

642
00:57:46,216 --> 00:57:50,616
the models today are showing to have that preference is proof that bitcoiners have been

643
00:57:50,616 --> 00:57:57,736
like predicting this and writing about it for years hence why right the model knows to say oh

644
00:57:57,736 --> 00:57:59,416
oh yeah, Bitcoin solves this problem.

645
00:57:59,556 --> 00:58:03,476
Like we've been forecasting today for over a decade.

646
00:58:03,716 --> 00:58:05,476
Right, and there's like a reflexivity to that

647
00:58:05,476 --> 00:58:07,236
where like kind of like Bitcoin itself, right?

648
00:58:07,296 --> 00:58:10,196
It's this, you know, sort of meme it into existence.

649
00:58:11,236 --> 00:58:12,696
And like, you know, and yeah,

650
00:58:12,696 --> 00:58:14,876
you can sort of have that causal debate of like,

651
00:58:15,076 --> 00:58:16,516
well, do the AI agents prefer Bitcoin

652
00:58:16,516 --> 00:58:18,216
or did the Bitcoiners just, you know,

653
00:58:18,456 --> 00:58:20,216
stack the training data in their favor?

654
00:58:20,956 --> 00:58:22,516
What difference does it make?

655
00:58:22,516 --> 00:58:23,616
Not even intentionally though.

656
00:58:23,616 --> 00:58:25,676
It's just like the altist brains have been like,

657
00:58:25,676 --> 00:58:27,496
oh, wait, wait, we're going to get to this digital future.

658
00:58:27,496 --> 00:58:32,396
agents like we need to architect our system so that bitcoin right they're able to spend bitcoin

659
00:58:32,396 --> 00:58:38,576
and like we didn't do it thinking oh yeah this is going to get injected into the training model and

660
00:58:38,576 --> 00:58:45,276
they'll pick bitcoin i was just like seeing the future and articulating it clearly yeah um so yeah

661
00:58:45,276 --> 00:58:53,996
no i'm excited to do more research on that um and yeah it's uh it was it was really it was really i

662
00:58:53,996 --> 00:58:59,276
I think another interesting thing from that was the fact that like a handful of

663
00:58:59,276 --> 00:59:04,136
the models in our experiments actually chose to create their own currency based

664
00:59:04,136 --> 00:59:07,616
on compute as like a currency, which I thought was just fascinating.

665
00:59:08,636 --> 00:59:13,196
And I feel like that's a very, you know, it sort of demonstrates again,

666
00:59:13,196 --> 00:59:14,576
that like, you know,

667
00:59:14,696 --> 00:59:20,156
when you don't have these sort of biased priors that sort of drag you down and

668
00:59:20,156 --> 00:59:23,816
cloud your thinking, it's like, you know, you, you,

669
00:59:23,996 --> 00:59:31,596
you have this, this clarity of thought, um, and, and creativity. Um, and so, yeah, I, I think the,

670
00:59:31,596 --> 00:59:36,756
I mean, I just, it's so hard to know what the future is going to, is going to look like, but

671
00:59:36,756 --> 00:59:43,896
it seems, it seems kind of intuitive that, um, a lot of, a lot of economic activity is going to

672
00:59:43,896 --> 00:59:49,496
just be made and monetary choices are going to be made just independently of human intervention.

673
00:59:49,496 --> 00:59:53,836
and yeah I'm just more bullish on the

674
00:59:53,836 --> 00:59:57,716
agents grokking Bitcoin than I am on at least a lot of

675
00:59:57,716 --> 01:00:00,896
people. Clanker has a Bitcoin wallet. He's

676
01:00:00,896 --> 01:00:04,196
using it. He knows how to use it.

677
01:00:04,196 --> 01:00:08,216
It is crazy. How do you think these messages

678
01:00:08,216 --> 01:00:11,936
you would know better than I. You are again in the swamp.

679
01:00:12,056 --> 01:00:14,996
How are these messages being received by the

680
01:00:14,996 --> 01:00:19,436
asymmetric points of leverage that you're trying to reach on the hill?

681
01:00:19,496 --> 01:00:24,576
I don't think the AI agents and like Bitcoin conversation is really happening.

682
01:00:24,796 --> 01:00:26,976
Well, just broadly, everything we've talked about at this point.

683
01:00:28,076 --> 01:00:29,416
It's really spiky.

684
01:00:29,616 --> 01:00:36,096
Like there are some people and groups who are like really smart on this stuff.

685
01:00:36,096 --> 01:00:43,556
And then there are some people who are just like, you know, what's the old, like, is it

686
01:00:43,556 --> 01:00:48,576
like Oliver Wendell Holmes or sort of the famous saying of like, you know, you can't,

687
01:00:48,576 --> 01:00:53,916
you know, convince someone whose salary depends on being, you know, not, you know, it depends on,

688
01:00:53,956 --> 01:01:01,036
you know, believing the opposite thing. Like, I think the, I mean, we have briefed people at the

689
01:01:01,036 --> 01:01:07,296
National Security Council throughout the intelligence community, throughout the military

690
01:01:07,296 --> 01:01:15,796
and the Department of War. And I think demand for our work and our thought leadership is really

691
01:01:15,796 --> 01:01:22,596
hockey sticking in those constituencies. Um, you know, I ran into Elizabeth Warren on the street

692
01:01:22,596 --> 01:01:27,196
the other day outside of pub key. She talked to her. I did. Yeah. I, uh, I think I broke her brain

693
01:01:27,196 --> 01:01:31,736
a little bit. Cause I was like, cause I was like, I was like, Hey, Senator Warren, like I'm a huge

694
01:01:31,736 --> 01:01:36,436
fan. Um, you know, I actually phone banked for you like way back in the day, which is true. Um,

695
01:01:36,436 --> 01:01:42,436
like I used to be a like, you know, pretty ardent Democrat. Um, like when I was a teenager and,

696
01:01:42,436 --> 01:01:44,716
And she was like, oh, that's so sweet.

697
01:01:44,836 --> 01:01:46,496
Like, what a nice young man you are.

698
01:01:46,756 --> 01:01:51,516
Like, you know, let's, let's, you know, she kind of pivoted toward me to, you know, kind

699
01:01:51,516 --> 01:01:55,016
of in your body language is indicating like, oh, you know, I'm going to sit down and stand

700
01:01:55,016 --> 01:01:56,956
up and have a conversation with you for a few minutes.

701
01:01:57,196 --> 01:02:01,016
Cause I was being, you know, sort of cordial and nice and, you know, whatever.

702
01:02:01,736 --> 01:02:05,376
And so, you know, we start talking and, you know, she's like, so what do you do?

703
01:02:05,916 --> 01:02:09,936
And I'm like, well, Senator Warren, I'm the president of the Bitcoin policy Institute.

704
01:02:09,936 --> 01:02:15,156
And she just like, I think her brain just kind of like, like, I think she probably thought

705
01:02:15,156 --> 01:02:18,696
that I was doing one of those, like, um, what is it like the street?

706
01:02:18,696 --> 01:02:20,316
Like sort of project Veritas.

707
01:02:20,316 --> 01:02:21,316
Yeah, exactly.

708
01:02:21,316 --> 01:02:35,074
Like you know cause I just like don think her mental model of reality like allows for someone to have phone banked for her and be into Bitcoin And so she just like ran away basically She was like well thanks for whatever

709
01:02:35,074 --> 01:02:36,434
And then just like bolted.

710
01:02:36,434 --> 01:02:40,514
Um, so like, yeah, I don't think I'm going to convince like Elizabeth

711
01:02:40,514 --> 01:02:44,514
Warren that, um, that Bitcoin is good for America, but that's sort of my whole

712
01:02:44,514 --> 01:02:49,714
argument, right? Is that like, I, I, I think if you can convince

713
01:02:49,714 --> 01:02:58,114
the national security policy makers that Bitcoin is in America's interests, then you sort of are

714
01:02:58,114 --> 01:03:05,294
going up one fractal in like the power hierarchy. Like imagine a world where, you know, a Democrat

715
01:03:05,294 --> 01:03:11,614
is elected in 2028 and let's just say Democrats control the house, the Senate and the executive.

716
01:03:13,394 --> 01:03:17,754
Yeah, they're definitely going to go after crypto. At minimum, they're going to go after

717
01:03:17,754 --> 01:03:24,914
like the Trump family and their business dealings in crypto, which are going to go after the meme

718
01:03:24,914 --> 01:03:30,234
coins or whatever. I think it's a terrible strategic mistake on there. Me too. Yeah,

719
01:03:30,234 --> 01:03:37,574
I think very, very, you know, I agree. But what happens when, you know, they say, okay,

720
01:03:37,574 --> 01:03:43,854
and we want to, we want to impose a, you know, an excise tax on, on Bitcoin. You know, we're

721
01:03:43,854 --> 01:03:49,494
going to pass a law to create a special marginal tax rate for Bitcoiners that is going to fund the,

722
01:03:49,494 --> 01:03:57,134
you know, the UBI and whatever. Um, and then, you know, you get a knock on the door from some spook,

723
01:03:57,134 --> 01:04:01,454
you know, at the CIA or whatever. And they're like, yeah, you can't touch Bitcoin.

724
01:04:02,154 --> 01:04:08,394
Like the national security policymaking community runs the country on issues of,

725
01:04:08,394 --> 01:04:13,794
of substance. Like it's just true. Well, um, and, and so like this idea that like, Oh, we need to

726
01:04:13,794 --> 01:04:18,994
convince all the Democrats to support Bitcoin. I think that's like laudable and noble. And there

727
01:04:18,994 --> 01:04:26,154
are really great reasons why somebody from a progressive, you know, worldview might,

728
01:04:26,154 --> 01:04:34,614
might find value in Bitcoin. But I don't think the winning strategy is to convince people who,

729
01:04:34,614 --> 01:04:41,634
you know, just can't be convinced, um, to, to not go after Bitcoin. The, the, the strategy is to

730
01:04:41,634 --> 01:04:48,414
convince the people who they report to who they cannot defy. And, you know, I think that if we

731
01:04:48,414 --> 01:04:56,674
create enduring consensus among the military and the, um, and the national security kind of

732
01:04:56,674 --> 01:05:02,514
community that Bitcoin is critical infrastructure for America, um, and they're not going to let,

733
01:05:02,514 --> 01:05:08,074
you know, partisan politics undermine our great power competition. There's not.

734
01:05:09,094 --> 01:05:14,614
Oh, you got the Marty Jones coming out. It is like, it is like, I'm seeing, I'm like picking

735
01:05:14,614 --> 01:05:17,714
up what you're putting down, but also the other side of me is like, I don't want to, I don't want

736
01:05:17,714 --> 01:05:23,894
to dance with these people. Yeah. I don't like the deep state's influence on neither do I United

737
01:05:23,894 --> 01:05:30,014
States, uh, in public policy. No, none of this is none of what I'm saying is normative. Like I am

738
01:05:30,014 --> 01:05:35,354
not endorsing this. I don't, I'm not, I'm not really weighing in, uh, on whether this

739
01:05:35,354 --> 01:05:40,754
ought to be the case. I'm just saying it is the case. Yeah. Um, yeah, no, I agree. Well,

740
01:05:40,754 --> 01:05:47,054
and like, well, pulling on this right a little bit more, I think, uh, we should all look at

741
01:05:47,054 --> 01:05:51,374
what's happening between the department of ward and anthropic right now and try to figure out how

742
01:05:51,374 --> 01:05:56,194
to avoid that with Bitcoin. Cause it seems very nice thing is we don't have CEOs. Uh, we don't,

743
01:05:56,194 --> 01:06:03,434
There's never going to be a leaked Slack message from the CEO of Bitcoin complaining about things.

744
01:06:03,434 --> 01:06:09,614
No, but I do think, I mean, if the Department of War specifically views a piece of technology critical,

745
01:06:09,734 --> 01:06:16,894
they will, whether they recognize they can or cannot try, whether they realize they can or cannot actually ultimately do it,

746
01:06:16,914 --> 01:06:23,014
they will try via some mechanism or another to force particular actions.

747
01:06:23,014 --> 01:06:27,694
who knows that's within bitcoin would that be protocol development would that be sure 6102 what

748
01:06:27,694 --> 01:06:35,154
would it be like yeah i i think that's i think that's fair um i think that the you know the

749
01:06:35,154 --> 01:06:40,054
argument that i sort of make when this stuff comes up like for example there's there's been like sort

750
01:06:40,054 --> 01:06:45,614
of this at least earlier in the trump administration there was kind of these whispers and mumblings

751
01:06:45,614 --> 01:06:51,734
around um you know america needs to dominate hash rate like we need to have the majority of hash

752
01:06:51,734 --> 01:06:56,914
rate in America. And you know, the argument that I would always make to people is like,

753
01:06:57,654 --> 01:07:01,834
well, that's exactly how you sort of kill the golden goose. Like Bitcoin only works

754
01:07:01,834 --> 01:07:08,694
if it is credibly neutral. If, if every single Bitcoin transaction can just be OFAC sanctioned

755
01:07:08,694 --> 01:07:15,194
or whatever, then it's over. It's like, no, you actually, the game theory is not that you want to

756
01:07:15,194 --> 01:07:20,874
control the Bitcoin network. The game theory is that you need to prevent anyone else from

757
01:07:20,874 --> 01:07:26,314
controlling the Bitcoin network. Like you want enough hash rate that you can make sure no one

758
01:07:26,314 --> 01:07:32,594
else can get 51%. But if you get 51%, it's a total Pyrrhic victory. You know, you're, you're,

759
01:07:32,674 --> 01:07:38,974
you're now the King of something that is, you know, like worthless basically. Um, and so I think

760
01:07:38,974 --> 01:07:46,494
with Anthropic, you know, there is, it was such a fundamental question of like control because

761
01:07:46,494 --> 01:07:51,394
someone is controlling, right? It's either Dario or the government. And so it's this very kind of

762
01:07:51,394 --> 01:07:58,494
like zero sum, like who are we going to give power to? Um, and Bitcoin is not really easily

763
01:07:58,494 --> 01:08:03,914
controllable. Um, and so it's like, there's less of a joystick to sort of fight over. Um,

764
01:08:04,434 --> 01:08:11,214
and I, and I do think that, uh, I'm not saying that Bitcoin is sort of immune from, uh,

765
01:08:11,214 --> 01:08:18,294
you know, efforts to control it by like the deep state or whatever. Um, in fact, I think that's,

766
01:08:18,334 --> 01:08:22,034
you know, it's kind of exactly what Satoshi said when, when Gavin was like, Hey, I'm going to the

767
01:08:22,034 --> 01:08:27,694
CIA and Satoshi just, you know, bounces. It's like, I'm out, I'm out. See ya. Um, I think that

768
01:08:27,694 --> 01:08:34,214
was way more true when Bitcoin was like, you know, a few dollars, um, a few years old and a few years

769
01:08:34,214 --> 01:08:41,014
old, uh, the argument that it needed to, you know, stay under the radar as long as possible.

770
01:08:41,214 --> 01:08:46,034
Like the whole, you know, sort of WikiLeaks thing of like, this is actually like Satoshi being like,

771
01:08:46,454 --> 01:08:49,754
you know, all the Bitcoiners at the time being like, it was so sick. You know, WikiLeaks is

772
01:08:49,754 --> 01:08:55,454
using Bitcoin and Satoshi's like, guys, it's a bad idea. Like I don't, I don't think we want our

773
01:08:55,454 --> 01:09:01,074
first kind of debut on the scene to be, you know, to be this, it's too nascent. It's, it's too

774
01:09:01,074 --> 01:09:06,174
vulnerable um and i think my response i was talking to somebody at the sni dinner about this

775
01:09:06,174 --> 01:09:10,834
last night and shout out to satoshi nakamoto institute shout out the original bitcoin think

776
01:09:10,834 --> 01:09:18,914
tank um you know will forever be in their shadow uh what can you do but uh yeah shout out shout out

777
01:09:18,914 --> 01:09:25,234
pierre and and goldstein and the crew um you know somebody was asking like well you know don't you

778
01:09:25,234 --> 01:09:30,534
don't you think there's some risk in kind of calling attention to you know to bitcoin among

779
01:09:30,534 --> 01:09:36,174
these people. And it's like, okay, well, you're very bullish on Bitcoin, right? Like you, you

780
01:09:36,174 --> 01:09:39,494
think that Bitcoin is going to flip gold. You said that earlier in this conversation, not you,

781
01:09:39,554 --> 01:09:42,914
but this guy that I was talking to, he said that earlier in this conversation. It's like, yeah,

782
01:09:42,994 --> 01:09:47,574
I do. So I think Bitcoin is going to a million dollars or whatever. Like, okay. So you think

783
01:09:47,574 --> 01:09:58,074
the, you think that the fucking U S intelligence agencies are going to be unaware of a 30 trillion,

784
01:09:58,074 --> 01:10:04,594
a $30 trillion asset and technology network. Like, I think there's a certain point where,

785
01:10:04,694 --> 01:10:11,854
uh, the conversation about crypto writ large, like that, that ship has just sailed. Um,

786
01:10:12,014 --> 01:10:19,174
and people in these positions of power are being tasked with thinking about what is our strategy

787
01:10:19,174 --> 01:10:23,914
on, on Bitcoin going to be. Um, and I can't guarantee that they're going to come to the

788
01:10:23,914 --> 01:10:30,434
right conclusions or do the right things. But it seems obvious to me that making an attempt to

789
01:10:30,434 --> 01:10:37,074
inform these people of the arguments for Bitcoin and trying to kind of participate

790
01:10:37,074 --> 01:10:43,914
is probably is, you know, is on balance better than just, you know, not engaging at all.

791
01:10:45,294 --> 01:10:50,414
You know, I but I mean, look, I do think that there are serious risks that come from

792
01:10:50,414 --> 01:11:00,534
this, this next chapter of, of, of Bitcoin. Um, what do you think? Well, um, I think,

793
01:11:00,534 --> 01:11:09,174
I think that the, I think there are a couple of things that I see as risks. Um,

794
01:11:09,854 --> 01:11:18,454
one is sort of just related to custody. Um, I am very worried one on a sort of technical level

795
01:11:18,454 --> 01:11:27,234
that bitcoin just at least on you know l1 doesn't scale um to 8 billion people um and and there's

796
01:11:27,234 --> 01:11:32,314
sort of this weird like you know meme it into existence where the belief that bitcoin does

797
01:11:32,314 --> 01:11:37,634
you know even though we know it does with with you know uh with layer twos and stuff um the sort

798
01:11:37,634 --> 01:11:43,174
of belief that bitcoin doesn't scale causes people to you know maybe not adopt it let's say

799
01:11:43,174 --> 01:11:47,554
kind of rambling but to be to be more clear i think you still get youtube comments like why

800
01:11:47,554 --> 01:11:52,034
you're using Bitcoin. You can only do transactions or whatever. But I do think that whether it's

801
01:11:52,034 --> 01:11:57,514
misinformation or just preferences of the individual, like the revealed preference of

802
01:11:57,514 --> 01:12:04,654
the last five years of Bitcoin adoption is that people don't want to self custody. Um, it's just

803
01:12:04,654 --> 01:12:09,634
like, I hate to say it, but it's just true. And it makes perfect sense that like the early adopters

804
01:12:09,634 --> 01:12:15,594
of Bitcoin who are these, you know, really deep thinkers who are thinking about kind of fundamental

805
01:12:15,594 --> 01:12:23,614
questions like how do I preserve my autonomy in an increasingly digital world where it's easier and

806
01:12:23,614 --> 01:12:31,274
easier for the state to monitor and alter my behavior. It makes perfect sense that these guys

807
01:12:31,274 --> 01:12:39,814
are like, yeah, I need Bitcoin in cold storage that nobody can fuck with. But the current cohort

808
01:12:39,814 --> 01:12:45,774
of adopters are not drawn to Bitcoin for necessarily those philosophical reasons.

809
01:12:45,974 --> 01:12:50,154
That's fine. Like for this to work, you know, Bitcoin is going to have to just appeal to,

810
01:12:50,154 --> 01:12:51,254
you know, everyone on the planet.

811
01:12:51,494 --> 01:12:56,134
Black rock marketing emails saying, all right, pour some over, pour some in. And so I think

812
01:12:56,134 --> 01:13:03,094
that's something I worry about a bit of like, how do the incentives around hard forks and stuff

813
01:13:03,094 --> 01:13:11,194
change when you have a couple of custodians that are controlling like you know a ton private keys

814
01:13:11,194 --> 01:13:18,094
to millions of bitcoin yeah um it's like i think the etfs are kind of a double-edged sword and it's

815
01:13:18,094 --> 01:13:22,674
there's no debate like you know it's like it's just gonna happen um you can't i mean it's sort

816
01:13:22,674 --> 01:13:28,714
of like king lear like yelling at the storm this is weird uh this is weirdly conflicting emotion

817
01:13:28,714 --> 01:13:33,074
because it's the most popular etf launch of all time but it's also leading to it's also the most

818
01:13:33,074 --> 01:13:40,034
popular etm launch of all the time and like yeah and like that is that is like um you know i just

819
01:13:40,674 --> 01:13:47,554
that that gives me some pause um but i don't know i i mean like i think i think bitcoin is

820
01:13:48,514 --> 01:13:57,394
is not without uh tail risk um and i and i think concentration of of of custody of private keys and

821
01:13:57,394 --> 01:14:05,374
and utxos rather is you know troubling um we need to get we need to get back to like not your keys

822
01:14:05,374 --> 01:14:11,434
not your coins don't trust verify i think we've lost that in the broader bitcoin community i mean

823
01:14:11,434 --> 01:14:16,894
i was gonna say put my hand up but like we literally say it every week on rhr maybe we

824
01:14:16,894 --> 01:14:20,054
could be more ardent but i don't think we could be more ardent but you're kind of you're sort of

825
01:14:20,054 --> 01:14:26,414
fundamentally levered to a philosophy that a lot of people explicitly reject, which is,

826
01:14:26,414 --> 01:14:32,334
uh, you know, you should take responsibility. Like, you know, it's, I don't think the limiting

827
01:14:32,334 --> 01:14:38,174
fact, it's just, I think the limiting factor is the number of people who, uh, want to be sovereign,

828
01:14:38,174 --> 01:14:45,754
um, or who are willing to take, you know, who are willing to sort of, uh, pay in terms of friction

829
01:14:45,754 --> 01:14:52,634
and you know all this stuff uh to people who sort of price sovereignty correctly um and and

830
01:14:52,634 --> 01:14:58,654
yeah um like you you can you can yell at someone until you're blue in the face that they're better

831
01:14:58,654 --> 01:15:03,874
off if they you know self-custody their their bitcoin and they're gonna be like yeah yeah i

832
01:15:03,874 --> 01:15:07,534
don't know i'd rather just larry fink hold on to it for me you know i i don't i don't want that

833
01:15:07,534 --> 01:15:11,994
level of responsibility don't care shut up nerd don't care i'm gonna let black rock you know hold

834
01:15:11,994 --> 01:15:16,194
my money. Like, what are you talking? You want me to write stuff down on a bunch of washers and

835
01:15:16,194 --> 01:15:19,774
bury it at my back? You're like, who, what do you think you are? And so, yeah, I think you're

836
01:15:19,774 --> 01:15:26,254
right. Like, I do think the, the marketing around self-custody, you know, can be improved and,

837
01:15:26,254 --> 01:15:30,094
you know, talking about like, you know, the SNI dinner and stuff and like these,

838
01:15:30,194 --> 01:15:36,054
these early Bitcoiners who were really laying the kind of memetic framework for how we would

839
01:15:36,054 --> 01:15:42,574
talk about Bitcoin and how people would come to understand Bitcoin. Um, I do think that the,

840
01:15:42,574 --> 01:15:49,474
if the self custody argument is limited to, uh, well, you're not truly sovereign unless you

841
01:15:49,474 --> 01:15:55,994
self custody, then your Tam of self custody is not 8 billion people. The Tam of self custody is

842
01:15:55,994 --> 01:16:02,474
the set of 8 billion people who value sovereignty. Um, or, or, you know, who, who, you know,

843
01:16:02,474 --> 01:16:07,414
who actually not just say they value it, but are willing to make trade-offs in exchange for

844
01:16:07,414 --> 01:16:15,234
sovereignty. Um, and I'm bearish on that as like a Tam. Um, so I don't know what the argument is

845
01:16:15,234 --> 01:16:20,554
to persuade people to self custody. I don't know whether it's, you know, you know, just UX

846
01:16:20,554 --> 01:16:27,094
improvements and stuff. I will say like BitKey, for example, I feel like was a nice step forward

847
01:16:27,094 --> 01:16:35,534
in that um like i had several normie friends uh you know i got bit keys for them and uh you know

848
01:16:35,534 --> 01:16:40,334
they they all sort of were people that were like sort of turned off by the traditional hardware

849
01:16:40,334 --> 01:16:46,874
wallet and like putting a seed phrase somewhere um and so i think bitkey is kind of a step in the

850
01:16:46,874 --> 01:16:52,454
right direction like i think a grandma could you know could set up a bit key but i i don't know

851
01:16:52,454 --> 01:16:58,294
easy to use hard to lose yeah that's the uh we maybe instead of making a sovereign it's cool

852
01:16:58,294 --> 01:17:03,254
and go back to like shut up nerd it's like flip it like no you're not cool if you yeah oh you have

853
01:17:03,254 --> 01:17:08,594
you have you have you have i bet oh you're a boomer yeah you're a boomer interesting yeah yeah

854
01:17:08,594 --> 01:17:16,054
curious yeah yeah yeah but yeah i think that is something that that concerns me um about the about

855
01:17:16,054 --> 01:17:25,574
the future of of bitcoin um i also think that you know something i think about a lot as well is like

856
01:17:25,574 --> 01:17:33,514
uh there's a world where the effort to make america really music there's a there's a world

857
01:17:33,514 --> 01:17:40,434
where the effort to make america extremely pro bitcoin backfires and it gets seen as such an

858
01:17:40,434 --> 01:17:46,014
American technology that, you know, it stops being money for enemies in their head. Like people

859
01:17:46,014 --> 01:17:50,894
don't want to adopt Bitcoin because they feel like it's strategy could be another example that

860
01:17:50,894 --> 01:17:55,374
it's kind of this delicate balance of like, you know, you want America to embrace Bitcoin maybe

861
01:17:55,374 --> 01:18:01,394
a little more than it has, but you don't want it to, you know, embrace it so much that it,

862
01:18:01,894 --> 01:18:06,974
uh, you know, it, it hurts Bitcoin's brand as something that is, is, is sort of,

863
01:18:06,974 --> 01:18:14,854
you know uncorrelated to the sovereign and and truly neutral um yeah so we need more we hey

864
01:18:14,854 --> 01:18:19,754
citizens outside the united states not united citizens of the world outside the united states

865
01:18:19,754 --> 01:18:23,474
you need to step up your game begin lobbying your government's harder yeah you know they need

866
01:18:23,474 --> 01:18:29,314
they need a bpi china or like a bpi whatever we won't get us probably we'll probably won't get a

867
01:18:29,314 --> 01:18:33,994
bpi china probably won't get a bpi china it's honestly it's going for like brazil it's much

868
01:18:33,994 --> 01:18:40,394
larger population much harder argument for them to make um yeah but but like sort of the the meme

869
01:18:40,394 --> 01:18:47,274
aside like totally um like i and i and i've been sort of encouraged by this like we we started bpi

870
01:18:47,914 --> 01:18:53,514
i mean i remember me i met you in 2021 in austin actually uh like a some you know like sort of

871
01:18:53,514 --> 01:18:58,954
cocktail hour like party thing on the rooftop no that was that nashville or austin i think it was

872
01:18:58,954 --> 01:19:04,974
was nashville nashville or smoking cigarettes on a roof in nashville yeah and like i feel like the

873
01:19:04,974 --> 01:19:11,974
sort of bitcoin i was driving down i remember i made a pit stop in nashville yeah and that's when

874
01:19:11,974 --> 01:19:17,794
we met that's where you had you've you've aged a lot sir yeah this is this job aging you had such

875
01:19:17,794 --> 01:19:22,634
a baby face you were so full of life not that you're not full of life no it's it's definitely

876
01:19:22,634 --> 01:19:29,694
age. I'm kidding. But, um, yeah, like I remember talking to so many people about this idea for BPI

877
01:19:29,694 --> 01:19:37,254
and, um, you know, the, I would say like the general, like the two common responses that I got

878
01:19:37,254 --> 01:19:44,454
were, um, sort of like, you know, big bro, like sort of like, oh yeah, okay. Like have,

879
01:19:44,454 --> 01:19:49,174
have fun doing that. Like, that's just sort of silly, whatever. Uh, and then like people that

880
01:19:49,174 --> 01:19:52,914
were like, this is fucking retarded. And like, I think I was the latter. I think you were definitely

881
01:19:52,914 --> 01:19:56,714
the latter at first. Like, this is just fucking stupid. I was like, don't engage, don't engage,

882
01:19:56,794 --> 01:20:03,514
whatever. And you know, I, I think there's, you could look at like the, the past, you know,

883
01:20:03,514 --> 01:20:08,794
whatever, two or three years and say, oh, it's been a failure and you know, nothing's come of

884
01:20:08,794 --> 01:20:15,754
this and whatever. It's like, if I reround the clock to 2021 and said, you know, uh, in, in

885
01:20:15,754 --> 01:20:19,714
four years, there's going to be an executive order for the president of the United States

886
01:20:19,714 --> 01:20:24,334
to establish a strategic Bitcoin reserve. There's going to be a bill that gets, you know,

887
01:20:24,734 --> 01:20:30,914
10% of the U S Senate behind it to buy a 5% of the supply, you know, like that would be

888
01:20:30,914 --> 01:20:34,794
unbelievable. You would be like, Oh wow. Like this is not just someone who has like sort of a,

889
01:20:34,794 --> 01:20:38,874
a bad idea. This is like a fundamentally delusional person. Like this is someone who

890
01:20:38,874 --> 01:20:44,094
is sort of in like a schizophrenic, you know, having a schizophrenic episode. Um, and so I feel

891
01:20:44,094 --> 01:20:48,734
like, you know, it's just you get so used to the new normal so quickly that

892
01:20:48,734 --> 01:20:52,594
immediately the goalpost shifts to, well, all we got was an executive order and

893
01:20:52,594 --> 01:20:56,414
a bill and it didn't pass. And it's like, okay, yeah, I mean, you can, you

894
01:20:56,414 --> 01:21:00,174
can have that view, but you would have literally, you would have bet your life

895
01:21:00,174 --> 01:21:04,674
savings that I was wrong. If I had told you four years ago that this is, you

896
01:21:04,674 --> 01:21:09,074
know, that if I just described the current moment to you, you would bet the

897
01:21:09,074 --> 01:21:12,034
farm that I was, that was incorrect. Yeah, I was convinced we were all going

898
01:21:12,034 --> 01:21:15,894
to the gulags back then. That's what Odell always said. You know, it's like, you know, man, just,

899
01:21:15,894 --> 01:21:23,174
just, we were going to the gulags, um, you know, and, and, and now I think

900
01:21:23,174 --> 01:21:30,194
we have sort of demonstrated that you don't need to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to lobby

901
01:21:30,194 --> 01:21:37,574
the government that if you do make an earnest attempt to meet people where they are and talk

902
01:21:37,574 --> 01:21:44,974
to them about Bitcoin in language that they are accustomed to, that is cognizant of their

903
01:21:44,974 --> 01:21:52,194
objectives and priorities and their values, that you can really make a big impact. And,

904
01:21:52,294 --> 01:21:57,114
you know, I've started to see over the last year, like all these other Bitcoin policy

905
01:21:57,114 --> 01:22:02,454
organizations like spring up all over the world. And, you know, a bunch of them are like Bitcoin

906
01:22:02,454 --> 01:22:08,934
policy institute whatever country uk well i think they're like a bitcoin policy uk there's a bunch

907
01:22:08,934 --> 01:22:14,294
of bpis and uh like i have two minds about this because on the one hand i'm like ah we have to

908
01:22:14,294 --> 01:22:18,454
defend our trademark unfortunately so like please don't call yourself that because you're not

909
01:22:18,454 --> 01:22:26,934
affiliated with us but you know that that aside like it's really awesome it's really inspiring

910
01:22:26,934 --> 01:22:32,214
like i think a lot of people bitcoiners all over the world have seen what we were doing in america

911
01:22:32,454 --> 01:22:37,094
and in done exactly what you were just calling on the listeners to do and like, you know, create,

912
01:22:37,094 --> 01:22:45,514
you know, organizations and, um, advocacy groups and, and, you know, uh, uh, grassroots efforts.

913
01:22:46,014 --> 01:22:52,494
Uh, like, I think there is, uh, I think we kind of helped kick off this trend of Bitcoiners

914
01:22:52,494 --> 01:22:58,974
realizing that they can have influence and agency. And, you know, it's not that the state

915
01:22:58,974 --> 01:23:05,974
is just this thing that does stuff to you and you sit there and just take it.

916
01:23:05,974 --> 01:23:07,974
Thank you, sir. I have another.

917
01:23:07,974 --> 01:23:19,954
Exactly. That you can actually engage in the political process. And so, yeah, I hope more people around

918
01:23:19,992 --> 01:23:25,632
on the world do what BPI is doing with their respective governments.

919
01:23:25,632 --> 01:23:25,932
Yeah.

920
01:23:26,612 --> 01:23:28,892
And say, hey, are we really going to let America win?

921
01:23:29,492 --> 01:23:32,192
And, you know, they've been dominating us forever.

922
01:23:32,192 --> 01:23:35,312
Like, are we really going to let them win the Bitcoin race?

923
01:23:36,612 --> 01:23:44,912
Like, I think that is a great bulwark as well against, you know, the risk I mentioned of,

924
01:23:44,912 --> 01:23:48,652
you know, Bitcoin getting branded globally as like too American.

925
01:23:48,652 --> 01:23:56,632
And so, um, yeah, I I'm, I'm bullish on Bitcoin advocacy around the world.

926
01:23:56,632 --> 01:24:03,992
Um, and I'm, I'm bullish on the people who have, uh, decided to kind of make that a,

927
01:24:03,992 --> 01:24:06,352
like, you know, kind of how they spend their time.

928
01:24:06,772 --> 01:24:13,112
Um, cause it's super thankless and it's miserable, um, like in many ways.

929
01:24:13,432 --> 01:24:18,592
Um, and you know, even a lot of the, I'm sure like a lot of those people are

930
01:24:18,592 --> 01:24:26,212
facing the same kind of you know uh kind of derision and condescension that i faced from you

931
01:24:26,212 --> 01:24:30,132
know like people in the bitcoin community from you and it was just like i remember being like

932
01:24:30,132 --> 01:24:34,572
this is good it's like dude just fucking have a cigarette man like it's you know we're going to

933
01:24:34,572 --> 01:24:42,272
just enjoy your time before we go to prison um yeah and so like i i think that if there are

934
01:24:42,272 --> 01:24:50,192
like international bitcoiners listening to this pod um and you know yeah uh that you should try to

935
01:24:50,192 --> 01:24:55,472
you know get involved with with the other people in your in you know in your meetup or whatever the

936
01:24:55,472 --> 01:25:00,512
other bitcoiners that you that you you know that you know in your country and and you know kind of

937
01:25:00,512 --> 01:25:08,512
give this a college try um so yeah well i mean again we're talking about yes and i dinner last

938
01:25:08,512 --> 01:25:14,512
night and then the conversation of the official speeches were about creating and then preserving

939
01:25:14,512 --> 01:25:21,072
the canon of Bitcoin and the sort of emergence of this mimetic vernacular that has emerged

940
01:25:21,072 --> 01:25:28,512
strongly via the Shatoshi Nakamoto Institute, but broke containment into the Twitter sphere.

941
01:25:28,512 --> 01:25:36,192
And we were in heavy meme warfare for, I would say, the better part of eight years between

942
01:25:36,192 --> 01:25:44,672
2015 and 2023 i think it's the meme warfare has died down a bit um but i think vpi what you guys

943
01:25:44,672 --> 01:25:50,912
are doing is sort of a sort of bottling of like that memetic power and like okay we need to focus

944
01:25:50,912 --> 01:25:55,872
this energy towards it's literally the same thing and just like we're you know it's just like a

945
01:25:55,872 --> 01:26:02,592
different sort of fractal of of meme warfare basically and it's like okay cool um you know

946
01:26:02,592 --> 01:26:09,432
know uh well and I bring it up too because I think it's I think this week is a great example of um

947
01:26:09,432 --> 01:26:17,712
you're fighting for Bitcoin policy on the hill and I think this week was a great example for me

948
01:26:17,712 --> 01:26:23,952
like a reminder like hey these politicians like they are worried about their next election and

949
01:26:23,952 --> 01:26:28,812
they will respond or in the case of this week a politician has responded we we forced Coinbase

950
01:26:28,812 --> 01:26:36,312
to respond essentially like the people who made a fuss about this de minimis thing like it's

951
01:26:36,312 --> 01:26:41,632
coinbase has made a response like we said earlier it seems like you and coinbase will be participating

952
01:26:41,632 --> 01:26:45,552
in a round roundtable discussion but the point i'm bringing all this up is like how

953
01:26:45,552 --> 01:26:53,012
can observers like myself on the outside looking in help your cause like how how strong

954
01:26:53,012 --> 01:26:58,632
is the memetics of participating in discussion outside the hill on the internet

955
01:26:58,632 --> 01:27:23,112
Well, I think it's really strong on the de minimis piece. Um, like I think there are basically two arguments that you could make against a de minimis exemption for Bitcoin. Uh, one is that it's a Trojan horse for tax evasion, um, which I think is the argument that some people are making. I think it's a very bad argument. Um, and it won't win.

956
01:27:23,112 --> 01:27:38,332
I think the other argument that people will make and are making about de minimis is that it's just a sort of solution in search of a problem and that it's not important that people don't use Bitcoin as money.

957
01:27:39,372 --> 01:27:49,392
And so it's interesting because I think what's going to happen is the principal argument against this policy is going to be that people don't care about it.

958
01:27:49,392 --> 01:27:56,292
But why should the government spend time and effort and all this stuff, uh, you know, for,

959
01:27:56,392 --> 01:28:00,752
for something that people are not using as money? And so it's weird. It's like, okay, if, if Joe

960
01:28:00,752 --> 01:28:05,652
Schmo from Arkansas calls their congressman and says, you know, here's what I think about the war

961
01:28:05,652 --> 01:28:11,152
in Iran, it's like, all right, man, like, thanks for your call. Like, have a good day. Um, but,

962
01:28:11,232 --> 01:28:16,692
but this is an interesting thing where like the very act of that phone call or email to your

963
01:28:16,692 --> 01:28:22,412
elected official is actually like in and of itself, the evidence against what I think the

964
01:28:22,412 --> 01:28:28,092
main argument against de minimis will be. And it's, you know, it's one of those rare moments

965
01:28:28,092 --> 01:28:34,392
where I actually think there's a ton of value in reaching out to your elected official. Um,

966
01:28:34,392 --> 01:28:40,692
because all they're trying to do is understand just ground truth. Like, you know, is this real?

967
01:28:40,692 --> 01:28:45,992
Are people really using Bitcoin as money? Or is this just like BPI and Bitcoin organizations,

968
01:28:45,992 --> 01:28:53,072
you know, telling us that people are using Bitcoin as money. Um, and so I think, you know,

969
01:28:53,232 --> 01:28:58,552
if you were a business owner, if you're using square, uh, and you've turned on Bitcoin payments,

970
01:28:58,552 --> 01:29:04,092
like just if you are a, someone who uses either receives Bitcoin as payment for, you know, your,

971
01:29:04,192 --> 01:29:08,912
your goods, your services, or you're someone who pays in Bitcoin for your goods and services,

972
01:29:08,912 --> 01:29:14,912
just emailing your representative and saying that I think is actually going to be meaningful. Um,

973
01:29:14,912 --> 01:29:22,532
Um, and Janessa Lopez, who runs Bitcoin policy for block, uh, tweeted out again yesterday,

974
01:29:22,532 --> 01:29:24,332
a, a link that they have.

975
01:29:24,612 --> 01:29:29,192
It's Bitcoin is money or BTC is BTC is money.

976
01:29:29,252 --> 01:29:31,252
BTC is money dot XYZ.

977
01:29:31,572 --> 01:29:35,912
And they just have like a one click tool that makes this, you know, you could probably have

978
01:29:35,912 --> 01:29:38,692
your, your claw, uh, just do this for you.

979
01:29:39,092 --> 01:29:40,392
Um, you know, it's just like a dropdown.

980
01:29:40,612 --> 01:29:41,472
You put your zip code.

981
01:29:41,472 --> 01:29:53,004
it tells you kind of who your elected officials are and it just auto generates a message that you can send them Hey can you go to btcismoney

982
01:29:53,004 --> 01:29:56,624
and I want you to send an email

983
01:29:56,624 --> 01:30:01,624
using your agentmail.2 account on my behalf,

984
01:30:02,484 --> 01:30:04,384
my local representative, please.

985
01:30:04,384 --> 01:30:05,664
Thank you.

986
01:30:05,664 --> 01:30:06,604
All right, he's on it.

987
01:30:07,704 --> 01:30:08,544
All right.

988
01:30:09,884 --> 01:30:10,724
He's on it.

989
01:30:10,724 --> 01:30:17,684
incredible. So I think that's one thing I will say, I think donating to the Bitcoin Policy

990
01:30:17,684 --> 01:30:29,004
Institute is important. We sort of exist only because of the generosity of Bitcoiners. And

991
01:30:29,004 --> 01:30:39,564
we've had a lot of people in the community step up and donate in a big way. But I think

992
01:30:39,564 --> 01:30:46,244
about nonprofits that people don't understand is they cannot just be funded by, you know,

993
01:30:46,284 --> 01:30:53,124
very wealthy people. Like the IRS looks at your revenue and you have to meet what's called a

994
01:30:53,124 --> 01:30:59,624
public support test. So a certain percentage of your revenue as an organization needs to be from

995
01:30:59,624 --> 01:31:07,344
small dollar donors, like people who give $5 a month or, you know, $20 a year or whatever it is.

996
01:31:07,344 --> 01:31:14,464
And I think it's, uh, how would I say this? Like, you might think like, why would I give $5 to,

997
01:31:14,464 --> 01:31:20,804
um, you know, uh, uh, to BPI? Like what am I gonna do by Connor a coffee or whatever,

998
01:31:20,804 --> 01:31:29,724
but every small dollar donor that we get lets a Bitcoin whale donate more money to BPI. Uh,

999
01:31:29,724 --> 01:31:36,624
and so there is this like inherent multiple on small dollar giving. Um, you know, we had a lot

1000
01:31:36,624 --> 01:31:40,564
of small dollar donors when we did the legal defense fund for Samurai Wallet.

1001
01:31:41,864 --> 01:31:46,324
And, you know, we raised, I think, a million dollars for that, for their legal defense.

1002
01:31:47,324 --> 01:31:52,364
And that was pretty much all from small dollar donors. And we didn't take a dime of that. You

1003
01:31:52,364 --> 01:32:04,264
know, 100% of those funds went straight to Bill and Keone and their lawyers. And so, yeah,

1004
01:32:04,264 --> 01:32:08,764
Um, we, we really could use more pleb support.

1005
01:32:09,384 --> 01:32:14,304
Um, and so, you know, literally if, even if it's like, you know, a couple of sats, like

1006
01:32:14,304 --> 01:32:16,384
it, it genuinely makes a big difference.

1007
01:32:16,384 --> 01:32:19,384
And I know that's like the corniest thing to say because everyone's like, oh, you know,

1008
01:32:19,644 --> 01:32:20,824
every dollar counts.

1009
01:32:20,824 --> 01:32:26,084
And, but like, no, there's a very, very, it gets very critical to the future of BPI that

1010
01:32:26,084 --> 01:32:31,364
we have a large base of people that give no pun intended a, even a de minimis amount of,

1011
01:32:31,364 --> 01:32:38,164
of money. Um, and your support of BPI, you know, at, at whatever it is, 20, 50, a hundred dollars a

1012
01:32:38,164 --> 01:32:46,084
year, uh, it, it raises the ceiling on how much money, uh, BPI can raise from, you know, larger

1013
01:32:46,084 --> 01:32:52,944
donors. Um, so that would be my, uh, my two plugs would be, you know, talk to your representative

1014
01:32:52,944 --> 01:33:00,884
about the minimums, talk to them about developer protections. Uh, those emails do get logged and

1015
01:33:00,884 --> 01:33:07,344
they do matter on the margin. Um, and the question isn't really like, is it, is how effective is it?

1016
01:33:07,364 --> 01:33:11,264
It's how effective is it relative to the 20 seconds it takes you to tell Claude to do it?

1017
01:33:11,264 --> 01:33:16,264
Like, you know, the, the, it's a very asymmetric payoff, uh, you know, given how easy it is to,

1018
01:33:16,344 --> 01:33:24,144
to do this stuff, um, and donating to BPI. Um, if you, if you support our mission and you want to

1019
01:33:24,144 --> 01:33:31,904
see kind of us succeed and do more of what we do, um, then yeah, uh, I think we are sort of an

1020
01:33:31,904 --> 01:33:38,244
in of one organization. Um, and then we are the only sort of real Bitcoiners, I think in this

1021
01:33:38,244 --> 01:33:45,804
process on, on Capitol Hill and in, uh, DC. So yeah, I just gave it my zip code. So it's,

1022
01:33:45,804 --> 01:33:52,944
it's two minutes away from sending my, my email on behalf of me. Um, yeah, I think it's very

1023
01:33:52,944 --> 01:33:57,984
important work and you're as we i was highly skeptical when we were smoking cigarettes on

1024
01:33:57,984 --> 01:34:02,384
that roof in nashville i was like yeah no it was here in austin actually no i remember we were here

1025
01:34:03,344 --> 01:34:08,624
but uh i remember being like now there's why engage flying gauge and again going back it is

1026
01:34:08,624 --> 01:34:14,064
still conflicting to this day like i and marty jones i don't like the intelligence agencies i

1027
01:34:14,064 --> 01:34:18,944
think they're false flagging yeah i think they're mk ultra and i think they're propagandizing us but

1028
01:34:18,944 --> 01:34:26,224
we live in an age of main warfare you've got to engage yeah we are in an info war and we got to

1029
01:34:26,224 --> 01:34:32,624
get the better info and i think and again i think again focusing that the medic energy that existed

1030
01:34:32,624 --> 01:34:42,684
on bitcoin twitter from 2015 to 2022 2023 sort of balling that energy and like goku

1031
01:34:42,684 --> 01:34:52,084
fucking dumbing towards the intelligence agencies is at the very least like they they can't say that

1032
01:34:52,084 --> 01:34:56,964
they don't have good arguments and i to your point the truth is on our side like it's very convincing

1033
01:34:56,964 --> 01:35:01,604
yeah once you understand this that's the other thing too is it's just like i don't know like

1034
01:35:01,604 --> 01:35:08,404
what like yeah it's just a fact like it is just true that america will be better off if you know

1035
01:35:08,404 --> 01:35:12,964
allows bitcoin to flourish here well actually i meant to bring this up earlier and that's a perfect

1036
01:35:12,964 --> 01:35:18,644
time to bring it up like america is better off because bitcoin already like many could argue

1037
01:35:19,524 --> 01:35:26,244
like bitcoiners the industry the country are better off despite a massive uphill battle

1038
01:35:26,244 --> 01:35:36,164
we've had to fight uh we had to fight up until um 2020 the end of 2024. like we were under attack

1039
01:35:36,164 --> 01:35:44,644
yeah multiple times and despite all that despite the relative um uncertainty that that loomed over

1040
01:35:44,644 --> 01:35:50,964
the industry for so many years like people persisted and knew like hey the the risk

1041
01:35:51,844 --> 01:35:55,844
is worth it and we're going to persist and we're going to keep accumulating bitcoin we're going to

1042
01:35:55,844 --> 01:36:03,044
keep building companies and um i think that is a testament as well like we've done so much despite

1043
01:36:03,044 --> 01:36:28,656
imagine what we can do if we have tailwinds instead of headwinds yeah exactly um i don know i think i think another you know to your point of the duality of the Yeah I think I am way more sympathetic to I see every now and then criticism of BPI

1044
01:36:30,776 --> 01:36:35,236
really just because I think people are philosophically against the idea of doing

1045
01:36:35,236 --> 01:36:41,756
this. And I am, I think of everyone at BPI, I'm probably the most sympathetic to those arguments.

1046
01:36:42,076 --> 01:36:46,756
Like I think everyone else on my team is like, yeah, well, yeah, it's fucking stupid. I,

1047
01:36:46,976 --> 01:36:53,916
I spent like a lot of time, like, you know, like over a year, just sort of like thinking very

1048
01:36:53,916 --> 01:37:00,216
deeply about whether this was a good idea or not. Um, and I think where one of the places where I

1049
01:37:00,216 --> 01:37:08,136
just sort of landed was, you know, the world where I'm wrong is just too depressing for me to accept.

1050
01:37:09,536 --> 01:37:16,356
Like if it really is the case that we have no agency and there's nothing we can do and the,

1051
01:37:16,356 --> 01:37:22,336
our, our, our lives are solely at the mercy and discretion of, you know, nameless unelected

1052
01:37:22,336 --> 01:37:28,516
bureaucrats. And, you know, you, you are just a little like goy cattle and just, you just,

1053
01:37:28,516 --> 01:37:31,456
You know, there's not, you know, you, you, you just sit there and you,

1054
01:37:31,456 --> 01:37:34,096
you eat the grass and you live in the pod and you,

1055
01:37:34,296 --> 01:37:37,096
and you go die in Iran when the, when the state tells you to,

1056
01:37:37,196 --> 01:37:39,716
and there's just nothing you can do. Like, I don't know.

1057
01:37:39,756 --> 01:37:44,716
That's an incredibly like low agency view of the world. And I would,

1058
01:37:44,836 --> 01:37:46,856
that's just too depressing. Like I just have to,

1059
01:37:46,856 --> 01:37:50,796
I just sort of have to choose to believe that the state is,

1060
01:37:51,016 --> 01:37:52,016
is not a monolith.

1061
01:37:52,276 --> 01:37:57,136
Like we anthropomorphize the state into like this gargantuan, like B it's just

1062
01:37:57,136 --> 01:38:03,796
people. Yeah. It's literally just human beings and human beings are just fundamentally persuadable.

1063
01:38:03,996 --> 01:38:10,516
They are, you know, they're not monolithic. Like it's, they're just people. And in the same way

1064
01:38:10,516 --> 01:38:16,796
that, you know, we got the entire world to believe in magic internet money. And you know, we, we

1065
01:38:16,796 --> 01:38:22,196
memed this, like we as in the Bitcoin community, uh, memed a new form of money into it. Like

1066
01:38:22,196 --> 01:38:28,996
Bitcoin itself is one of the most high agency things that has ever happened ever. Like the

1067
01:38:28,996 --> 01:38:35,696
sheer audacity of a bunch of nerds on a talk forum and on a mailing list before that to say,

1068
01:38:35,816 --> 01:38:44,416
yeah, this thing money that is the exclusive purview of nation states, actually like we can

1069
01:38:44,416 --> 01:38:49,716
draw a little like wizard memes and just like, you know, orange coin good and you know, whatever.

1070
01:38:49,716 --> 01:38:55,776
like we think the audacity to, to believe that you can, you know, meme a new form of money and

1071
01:38:55,776 --> 01:39:02,876
value into existence, um, is so inspiring. Like that's like why I got obsessed with Bitcoin.

1072
01:39:03,036 --> 01:39:08,856
Like I got completely one-shotted by that. Um, it's fun. And I, and I, you know, my,

1073
01:39:08,876 --> 01:39:14,136
my initial kind of coming into Bitcoin was, was like, wow, this is overwhelmingly likely to fail.

1074
01:39:14,136 --> 01:39:21,656
but what if it doesn't? And I feel like that was the attitude of a lot of early Bitcoiners.

1075
01:39:21,656 --> 01:39:26,316
Like when I went down the rabbit hole and started reading all of these, you know,

1076
01:39:26,316 --> 01:39:32,856
there's like sort of pages and pages of, of, you know, discussion on the talk forum and,

1077
01:39:32,956 --> 01:39:40,256
and on the mailing list. You know, it was so cool because it felt like the smartest people in the

1078
01:39:40,256 --> 01:39:45,196
world were kind of here talking about this. And the attitude was very intellectually humble.

1079
01:39:45,596 --> 01:39:50,096
Like it was, you know, this, this will probably fail. It will probably go to the gulag or, you

1080
01:39:50,096 --> 01:39:53,636
know, this will blow up or get shut down or whatever. Once in a while, how funny would be

1081
01:39:53,636 --> 01:39:58,836
like, but if it does work, but if it does work, how cool would that be? And so I think there's

1082
01:39:58,836 --> 01:40:07,336
been this weird pivot in the kind of median attitude of Bitcoiners kind of in some ways away

1083
01:40:07,336 --> 01:40:14,016
from that spirit of like, you can just do things and agency to this weird kind of sort of politics

1084
01:40:14,016 --> 01:40:20,916
of inevitability of Bitcoin is inevitable and we're going to win no matter what. And also,

1085
01:40:20,916 --> 01:40:25,876
uh, the state hating us and hating Bitcoin is inevitable and there's nothing we can do about

1086
01:40:25,876 --> 01:40:31,476
that. And I think both of those are just wildly retarded and like dangerous, like stupid fucking

1087
01:40:31,476 --> 01:40:36,156
views. And, and whether they're in, honestly, they're just depressing views. And to me,

1088
01:40:36,156 --> 01:40:40,716
that is like the antithesis of Bitcoin. Like Bitcoin is fundamentally a project of like human

1089
01:40:40,716 --> 01:40:45,836
agency and an ability to say, yeah, we can opt out. Like we can do something different. We can

1090
01:40:45,836 --> 01:40:51,716
change the course of history and change the timeline. Um, and that's kind of, you know,

1091
01:40:52,096 --> 01:40:57,916
in a, in a less cool way, uh, but like sort of same mental model. That's how I feel about,

1092
01:40:57,916 --> 01:41:03,796
uh, this type of work is like, I don't know my options are what sit there and, and, uh,

1093
01:41:03,796 --> 01:41:07,896
uh, and do nothing and just accept that I have no control over my life,

1094
01:41:07,896 --> 01:41:11,876
that we as Americans have no control over how our government treats Bitcoin.

1095
01:41:12,616 --> 01:41:15,476
Um, like I'm, I'm sort of, again,

1096
01:41:15,496 --> 01:41:18,876
I I'm sympathetic to people who view that the world that way,

1097
01:41:18,876 --> 01:41:21,836
but I just feel like those people have to be really unhappy. Yeah.

1098
01:41:21,876 --> 01:41:23,016
Like that just can't, to me,

1099
01:41:23,016 --> 01:41:25,956
that is not a sort of mental model of the world that is, you know,

1100
01:41:25,956 --> 01:41:28,736
compatible with like being well adjusted and black pill.

1101
01:41:28,816 --> 01:41:31,296
It's just so black pill. Very incel driven. Yeah.

1102
01:41:31,316 --> 01:41:33,456
It's just really depressing. It's, uh,

1103
01:41:33,796 --> 01:41:38,936
no i'm getting reinvigorated i was actually saying this week has been very reinvigorating

1104
01:41:38,936 --> 01:41:44,776
for me because the coinbase stuff really pissed me off like i was like are you kidding me are

1105
01:41:44,776 --> 01:41:53,436
you kidding me coinbase and the fact that the bitcoin community the internet coinbase reacted

1106
01:41:53,436 --> 01:42:00,176
the way they did it was like yeah we're back in like like uh the sni dinner uh pierre was described

1107
01:42:00,176 --> 01:42:04,256
to somebody back in 2015 on twitter you'd get in a phone booth with like paul krugman like knife

1108
01:42:04,256 --> 01:42:09,056
them yeah i felt like that energy that again that medic energy that existed between 2015

1109
01:42:09,696 --> 01:42:15,056
and 2022 i miss people are new to this stuff and like we're talking like like the memetic energy

1110
01:42:15,056 --> 01:42:21,456
of bitcoin twitter in that era was so strong so powerful so much fun it's been lost but this week

1111
01:42:21,456 --> 01:42:26,576
you feel like a little bit of it came back yeah and the i'm not trying to blow smoke up my own

1112
01:42:26,576 --> 01:42:30,656
ask be like i did but like i don't know there's like a weird convergence of things happening

1113
01:42:30,656 --> 01:42:48,808
right now and i i think the idea that we have agency and that we can do these things needs to be to your point uh engendered across the spectrum of bitcoiners nothing inevitable no complacency is is a killer and

1114
01:42:48,808 --> 01:42:53,668
get back in the meme warfare yeah let's get back in let's start having fun again yeah the price is

1115
01:42:53,668 --> 01:42:59,028
down yeah there's there's wars popping off yes there's a private credit bubble but this is why

1116
01:42:59,028 --> 01:43:03,568
bitcoin exists i mean it's going to help us get away from this we need to start having fun again

1117
01:43:03,568 --> 01:43:11,368
yeah don't be a chud don't don't don't take the black pill like you know you're the the you know

1118
01:43:11,368 --> 01:43:18,428
like the there's just no there's no upside in that like your your your maximum upside of the

1119
01:43:18,428 --> 01:43:24,608
black pill is everything goes to shit and your life sucks and you get thrown in the gulag

1120
01:43:24,608 --> 01:43:30,868
and you get to be like told you so told you zell bpi was a waste of fucking time

1121
01:43:30,868 --> 01:43:35,608
I'm like, okay, man, like, so your max upside is sweet.

1122
01:43:35,868 --> 01:43:37,428
Can you pass the slot?

1123
01:43:37,748 --> 01:43:39,388
Can you pass the gruel to me, please?

1124
01:43:39,728 --> 01:43:44,508
Before we have to go break up the rocks to, you know, whatever in the chain gang, like

1125
01:43:44,508 --> 01:43:51,528
the max upside of the, of the low agency sort of, you know, black pill take is everything

1126
01:43:51,528 --> 01:43:57,368
you care about goes away and the world is terrible and you get the sort of unique privilege

1127
01:43:57,368 --> 01:43:59,268
of being able to say, I told you so.

1128
01:43:59,268 --> 01:44:04,408
like what's that's terrible. I predicted this. I called it. Yeah. I said, this was right. I,

1129
01:44:04,548 --> 01:44:09,568
you know, you, I told you, you know, you could, you never, this was a waste of time. Okay. Like,

1130
01:44:09,568 --> 01:44:15,048
I mean, yeah, I, I just feel like the risk reward on that trade is like abysmal. It's just

1131
01:44:15,048 --> 01:44:24,708
asymmetric to the downside. Um, so yeah. Uh, but no, I, I, I am very, I'm very sympathetic to

1132
01:44:24,708 --> 01:44:35,008
like um skepticism and uh uh you know and critique um but you know um

1133
01:44:35,008 --> 01:44:41,768
you're like you're in the arena brother brother i'm in the arena the man in the arena

1134
01:44:41,768 --> 01:44:49,568
but i mean like okay that actually is like so fair though um like i mean not not to like just

1135
01:44:49,568 --> 01:44:54,088
you know whatever but like i mean it's true like if you don't like what i'm saying to the government

1136
01:44:54,088 --> 01:45:03,028
about Bitcoin, go, go say something else, you know, like, um, I don't have some monopoly there.

1137
01:45:03,168 --> 01:45:09,428
Bitcoin is decentralized. There's no, you know, I'm not, I'm not getting a rake on the,

1138
01:45:09,428 --> 01:45:15,148
the political, you know, on the, on the policy budget of the Bitcoin corporation. Um, you know,

1139
01:45:15,148 --> 01:45:24,508
Like, you know, uh, and so, yeah, uh, I, I think that, I think this is just so worth

1140
01:45:24,508 --> 01:45:26,768
a college try.

1141
01:45:27,168 --> 01:45:34,128
Um, and I'm totally willing to concede that there are possible states of the future where,

1142
01:45:34,128 --> 01:45:41,388
uh, you know, this all ages like milk and, uh, you know, everything I've tried to do,

1143
01:45:41,388 --> 01:45:42,448
uh, fails.

1144
01:45:42,448 --> 01:45:49,248
um i'm totally fine with that yeah like you know that's that is a sort of necessary condition of

1145
01:45:49,248 --> 01:45:55,168
doing anything meaningful and worthwhile and worthwhile yeah um so i i'm you know very

1146
01:45:55,168 --> 01:46:01,788
cognizant of the the fact that this could just be a waste of time um and you know uh

1147
01:46:01,788 --> 01:46:10,308
yeah but like i i don't know i i have to believe that as you know as easy as it is to take the

1148
01:46:10,308 --> 01:46:18,428
black pill and as like depressing as the world can be, um, the moment that you just decide that

1149
01:46:18,428 --> 01:46:25,288
you have no agency, you, you, you mean that into reality, like everything you do is memeing something

1150
01:46:25,288 --> 01:46:31,368
into reality. And if you decide the moment you, you, you decide you have no agency over the future

1151
01:46:31,368 --> 01:46:37,928
that you have sealed your fate and you do have no agency over your future. Um, I don't know.

1152
01:46:37,928 --> 01:46:41,188
that's kind of how I resolve like to your point of your like the back and forth of like,

1153
01:46:41,588 --> 01:46:47,028
oh, I think this is cool. I get it. I'm also like, ah, is it cool? Is it the right thing?

1154
01:46:47,028 --> 01:46:51,888
Like to me, it's just that, that, that's sort of the logic that I kind of came down to is like,

1155
01:46:51,888 --> 01:47:01,868
you just, you know, the, the, the, the upside of, of trying is a really large and the, uh,

1156
01:47:01,868 --> 01:47:05,788
the, the downside of, of, of,

1157
01:47:05,788 --> 01:47:09,528
it's just the, there's just, it's not, it's not an equal distribution.

1158
01:47:09,528 --> 01:47:15,008
Like, uh, the, the, the, the max downside of trying and failing

1159
01:47:15,008 --> 01:47:17,668
is the same downside as not trying at all.

1160
01:47:17,668 --> 01:47:22,028
And so, you know, with, with BPI and the work that,

1161
01:47:22,148 --> 01:47:25,428
that you're doing and that so many people in Bitcoin are doing, um,

1162
01:47:26,428 --> 01:47:29,748
we're at least, you know, uh, uh,

1163
01:47:31,868 --> 01:47:37,248
giving into college right yeah increasing better place yeah like in sort of yeah exactly like

1164
01:47:37,248 --> 01:47:42,168
sort of increasing the probability that we get to the good timeline yeah we're gonna get there

1165
01:47:42,168 --> 01:47:49,528
we're gonna win i know you gotta get going yeah so this has been an incredible pleasure

1166
01:47:49,528 --> 01:47:54,348
i believe it's been the first time in person so much better yeah it is and it's so much better

1167
01:47:54,348 --> 01:47:59,248
maybe i'll start honey i'm gonna start traveling do all in purse i'm gonna become the next peter

1168
01:47:59,248 --> 01:48:06,908
mccormick don't worry we're gonna buy a soccer team though um yeah uh no this is i think the work

1169
01:48:06,908 --> 01:48:14,088
that you're doing is incredibly important i think um i think everybody like i really like the

1170
01:48:14,088 --> 01:48:19,088
sort of last train of thought we ended on there which is like hey do you want to live in a world

1171
01:48:19,088 --> 01:48:23,628
where we're we're eating our girls saying i told you so or do you want to live in the world where

1172
01:48:23,628 --> 01:48:30,348
like wow we fucking did it boys we fucking did it yeah bitcoin is uh the standard

1173
01:48:31,868 --> 01:48:37,468
monetary reserve asset of the world we're using it as payments the politicians have bent the knee

1174
01:48:37,468 --> 01:48:43,548
and the politics of inevitability is a psyop to make you complacent yes like everyone who tells

1175
01:48:43,548 --> 01:48:48,508
you that you have no agency in power is psyoping you into precisely that outcome

1176
01:48:49,788 --> 01:48:52,908
and then yeah we're gonna win we're gonna win

1177
01:48:53,628 --> 01:49:00,828
go go go get your five dollar monthly donation to bpi set up freaks peace and love

1178
01:49:00,828 --> 01:49:06,888
dude great rep that was awesome i feel like the hungover