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You've had a dynamic where money has become freer than free.

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You talk about a Fed just gone nuts.

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All the central banks going nuts.

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So it's all acting like safe haven.

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I believe that in a world where central bankers are tripping over themselves to devalue their

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currency, Bitcoin wins.

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In the world of fiat currencies, Bitcoin is the victor.

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I mean, that's part of the bull case for Bitcoin.

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If you're not paying attention, you probably should be.

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Nick Slaney, welcome to the show, sir.

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Hey, Marty. Thanks for having me on.

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Thanks for coming on.

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I think you're at the intersection of something that fascinates me

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incredibly right now, which is Bitcoin, obviously.

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Been a Bitcoiner for 13 years, but I've been getting into vibe coding.

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and you released a demo of integrating your product, Money Dev Kit, into Replit

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and making it easier for Vibe coders to accept payments pretty trivially using the Bitcoin network.

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And so jump off.

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Why don't we give a brief description of your background

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and why you decided to start Money Dev Kit and what it is at a high level?

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Yeah, definitely.

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Nick Slaney, been a Bitcoiner for a long time, since like 2013.

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I joined Block as a hardware engineer.

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And around that time, that's actually when Jack started talking a little more publicly

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about Bitcoin.

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Really exciting for me as a Bitcoiner.

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And I was also getting into the Lightning Network at the time.

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So that was going on.

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They internally said they were going to start working on what became BitKey.

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I got onto the BitKey team, exactly, as a mechanical engineer.

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So I did help do the product design engineer, product design for BitKey.

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And at the time, I was also getting the Lightning Network.

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I was like, hey, we can do more with the Lightning Network at Block.

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We just had cash app withdrawals and deposits at the time.

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So I went and put together a doc, pitched it around the company, got the attention of

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the right people, and we started C equals.

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So at Block, we started ZEquels, which was a routing node on the Lightning Network.

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And we wanted to do a lot with that node.

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What we ended up doing was mostly serving cache app and making the best routing node we could.

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And we saw really big growth in volume, which was really cool.

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Fast forward to the end of 2024, early 2025.

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I ended up leaving Block and I wanted to pursue kind of the insights we saw at Block.

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We saw a bunch of volume on the Lightning Network.

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We saw a lot of people paying.

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We didn't see a lot of people actually receiving payments.

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So kind of that money dev kit was born out of that, this idea of, hey, let's make it

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actually easy to receive Lightning payments online.

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and it just so happens you know all this vibe coding ai stuff was taking off i actually started

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money dev kit it was me and sonnet at the time like hey take ldk node let's try to make it

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something i can run um which i kind of had an idea about um but from there i got some help

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got some people to uh you know money dev kit is not completely vibe coded it's made by really

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legit developers. But yeah, it's been a lot. So Money Dev Kit is basically now a way to take

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lightning payments on your website. And we've gotten it to the point where you can just say,

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hey, Replit Agent, add payments with Money Dev Kit, and it just works. And that's a dream. So

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that's a video we put out on New Year's Eve, actually. And we have a bunch of people trying

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it now. Yeah. And so when you're calling a Replit agent saying, hey, implement money dev kit,

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what's happening behind the scenes? So we've actually created an MCP server, which allows you

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to create an account and do all the money dev kit things via the agent. And Replit has this

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integration where you can easily add MCP servers. So the agent actually reaches out to our website,

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creates an account, looks at our docs, implements everything in our docs, and puts in all of the

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environment variables, everything for you. So the agent is basically doing everything. And we've just

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given the agent the right things to poke and prod to make it work. And I think one of the reasons

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you're focused on bitcoin specifically money dev kit is because of the sovereign neutral

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asset of the protocol itself i think there are many people out there vibe coding many applications

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will need payments and many people run into problems with something like stripe particularly

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or even stable coins to a certain extent what is it about bitcoin and the lightning network

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specifically that is perfectly suited for this explosion in app development that we're seeing?

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The way we can get such an easy flow is because we're doing self-custody. And if you go to the

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MoneyDevKit website, we're not saying self-custody, care about self-custody. This is the biggest thing

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ever. What we're saying is accept payments. With self-custody, you don't have to do all of the

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onboarding KYC that you have to do when you use something like Stripe. So, you know, we've kind of

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packaged that up so that we can get the access. And it's kind of two things. It's access and ease

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of use. So the demo of just pay ad payments, and then you can take a production payment in less

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than five minutes. That's huge. No one's been able to do that before. Even if you're in a

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supported country by Stripe and you go through the Stripe onboarding flow, it'll take a day at

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least to get things going. So ease of use is huge, but also access. Since we're self-custody,

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we don't have to have the limitations of Stripe. So there's a lot of people out there. If you go

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on X right now and you search Stripe rejected, you'll see hundreds of people, a lot of them

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actually in India who are saying, hey, I made this cool app. I'm really excited. I just found

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out Stripe doesn't work in my country. What do I do? And they're in a lot of pain. It's like actually

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probably the worst thing to put days, if not weeks of your life into an app and find out,

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wait, I can't get paid for this. So using Bitcoin is the best way for us to reach those people

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because Bitcoin was built with the idea of self-custody in mind. That's what gives us a way

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to actually reach as many people as possible as easily as possible.

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And what's happening under the hood when you use Money Dev Kit?

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With Money Dev Kit, we've basically made libraries that easily fit into what people are using today.

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Our first library was Next.js.

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A lot of people make websites on Next.js and deploy them for sale.

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It's a very easy thing.

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We have another library that's Replit.

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So it uses Express Vitae, like the kind of things that Replit uses.

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And what we're doing in the library is we're actually giving you a little mini lightning

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node that you run yourself.

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When I say we're giving you a lightning node, I think people automatically go to like, wait,

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I have to run a server and I have to do this.

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We do it all for you.

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So it's an LSP.

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We actually let you hold your keys and you're able to run a server on your own infrastructure.

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But we are, you know, handling channel liquidity and all the kind of complicated stuff.

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The main thing is you're holding your keys and you have a node that's deployed on your own infrastructure.

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And how do you make users aware that they're holding their own keys and the responsibility that comes with that?

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We have it in the docs.

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We have it actually in the MCP server, too.

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Like, hey, this is your wallet key.

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You want to keep this safe.

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but also we think the typical money dev kit user is maybe not a bitcoiner actually we kind of hope

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that's the case for bitcoiners i think they know pretty well like hey this is my key um but also

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we want people to be offboarding either to their exchange to get their own local currency or to

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their own wallet so we don't really see money dev kit as the place where you store all your money

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more just an easy place to receive payments. And then from there, you can bring it to your wallet,

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your self-custody, or to your local currency. So we do say, hey, it's good to keep the seed,

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make sure you don't lose it. But also we expect most people to not be keeping a lot of money on

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DevKit. And right now it's only one-time sales, but you have subscriptions and use and space

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coming soon? Yeah. So we're going to be covering all of the things that people expect from

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a payment product. A lot of people have made like, hey, you can, this is a developer tool.

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You can use Bitcoin payments with this, but all they give is send and receive. That's good for a

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wallet. But most people who are making websites, they want the full stack. Stripe does a lot more

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than just the credit card API receive credit card payments.

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They're doing customers, subscriptions, products.

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These are all things we're working on now.

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We actually just got our customers integration started

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and subscriptions and products and all that sorts of things

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are going to be following soon.

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Yeah.

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So let's lean into this.

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Do you think, because this has been an ongoing conversation

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over the last two years, particularly as AI,

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has really hit the scene and more particularly this idea of an agentic framework more specifically

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an autonomous agentic sort of digital ecosystem arising and i've always been under the impression

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that it makes sense like if agents are going to be running around the internet doing tasks

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for humans and some of those tasks necessitating the transfer of of money bitcoin makes sense is

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is this your view as well? And if so, like, let's explain to the audience why Bitcoin may be

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perfectly suited for this specifically. Yeah, definitely. The biggest thing is what I was

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talking about before is the self-custody aspect. With MoneyDevKit, we've made it so self-custody

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is super accessible and you don't really have to think about it. And the benefits that gives is you

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can accept payments anywhere. You don't need to have like the very rigid, basically set up a bank

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account to accept payments. And this translates really well to agents, because I think you see a

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lot of people talking about agentic payments and a lot of people saying like, this is going to be

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huge, but I haven't seen anyone actually do it yet. And I think a lot of it is they are in,

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you know, discussions with all sorts of people at payment networks, and they're talking about

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the sort of things that keep people from getting on those payment networks in the first place and

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trying to figure out how this is going to work. With an easy-to-use self-custody solution that an

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agent can just spin up itself, you don't have to worry about any of that because there's no payment

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processor that's taking on the risk of what the agent is doing. The agent is just using a software

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tool that lets it interact with Bitcoin and Lightning. So that's hugely powerful when you're

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talking about things like, hey, is an agent going to pay for an MCP server? Are agents going to be

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paying each other? Are agents going to be creating other agents that then are paying other agents?

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All these kind of use cases in the traditional finance world, you have to start with, well,

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where am I going to scan the passport? How do I make sure it's the country I support and I know

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where the money is coming from? When it's self-custody and it's very much a responsibility

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is on the developer and the agent, then it's just so much simpler. So we're looking into the

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agentic payment stuff now. And I think we can get to a proof concept much faster than a lot of these

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companies that are starting with Stripe or starting with traditional payments.

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Or stablecoins. I think you have strong views on stablecoins specifically. What are your thoughts

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on the fascination and the energy behind stablecoins as an industry right now?

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A lot of people have asked us about stablecoins, especially as we raised our seed round,

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kind of, hey, stable coins are the hot thing. We were raising right around the time when Stripe was

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spending a billion dollars on Privy and Bridge and all these kind of stable coin things. And I think

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everyone was, there was a lot of fervor, but underneath people who know how stable coins work

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and they know why Tether is popular, we're pretty confused. Marty, I think you were probably,

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I think at least Odell was at the Bitcoin for America conference in Washington, DC.

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I was there too, yeah.

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Yeah. And Paolo was there. I don't know if you noticed that, but I think that was the first time

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Paolo ever stepped foot on US soil He the CEO of Tether And people in the industry know that Tether is popular because it lets you hold dollars in places where it basically illegal to hold dollars

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And Tether's whole business was based around having absolutely no US nexus. No one went to

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the US. They didn't hire any US citizens. So the whole Genius Act, Circle IPO, Bridge, Privy thing,

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I think to most people in the industry, they were kind of like, hey, what's going on?

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Like a USDC has always been a lower market cap than Tether because Tether got global access by

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completely avoiding the US. And when the Genius Act passed and we saw, hey, this has these kind of

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onboarding requirements that banks have, I immediately was like, okay, well, this won't

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have the access that Tether had. And I think that's like the real glaring thing right now.

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The narrative is, hey, stable coins are going to have Stripe go global.

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But actually, when you look at the plays, when you actually go through stable coin flows,

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you usually run into the sort of stuff that keeps people from like India out.

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So for us at Money Dev Kit, we're maximizing for access.

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We're really going for those people who are, hey, I created an app.

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Millions and millions of people can do this now.

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but I can't use Stripe. And what we saw with stable coins was not a big access expansion,

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at least with the US stable coins, but we saw basically a fintech play to replace MasterCard

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and Visa, which is totally reasonable for Stripe to do and totally reasonable for basically every

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company in the US to try to get around MasterCard and Visa. But for a really big global TAM play,

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it doesn't really match up. So for us, Bitcoin was really the thing to go with.

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And actually, it's really interesting, Marty. We were talking with a traditionally underbanked

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business in the US and they told us, hey, we're talking to a bunch of stablecoin companies.

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They're really excited. But with this Bitcoin thing, do you have to, will MasterCard get mad

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if you're doing this? And I had to explain to this company, like, no, Bitcoin is an open network.

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There's no, I don't have to worry about what MasterCard thinks about our business.

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And that to me was a really validating point to this idea of like, hey, these US tables that

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everyone's excited about, they don't actually give you more access. Yeah. I think we're very

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much aligned on this. My pin tweet on my profile right now, it's been fun. I sent this out in July

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of last year the noise of this cycle is going to be stablecoin fervor real world asset tokenization

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in a resurgence of blockchaining all the things especially ai and i think the siren calls

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of stablecoin specifically are just fascinating because people view them as these they conflate

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them with bitcoin's sovereign nature right like stablecoins you have a central issue or whether

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it's tether or circle or coinbase whoever it may be and they can blacklist you it's like you're

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you do have some i mean props for props are due there definitely are some efficiency and user

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experience improvements using stable coins over visa mastercard particularly in settlement times

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but at the end of the day these are centrally issued dollar um dollar equivalent tokens that

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that can be frozen or blacklisted. And you have a company that sort of dictates who can and cannot

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use them or Bitcoin does not have that problem. Exactly. And, you know, the other thing with

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stable coins is people would say, hey, Nick, don't you think people want stable coins?

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And my response to that is the people are trying to serve. They don't want stable coins. They don't

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want they probably don't even actually want Bitcoin. They just want payments. They're in a

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position where they've made something and they actually, they can't receive any value. So however,

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however we can get to them is most important. And, you know, it being Bitcoin, it means that

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we don't have those risks that the stable coin issuers have. And it also means we have more

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liquidity, more exchanges available. So someone who wants to just take payments, they can get

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their local currency like rupees, or they can get Bitcoin if they want. But it really, I think,

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leaning into this kind of medium exchange frame of you can use Bitcoin for a transfer. It's the

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easiest way to transfer value across a year old is exactly where we want to be right now.

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What are your thoughts on the double-sided market problem? Obviously, Bitcoin payments have been

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a meme since you've been in Bitcoin, since I've been in Bitcoin. I think Roger Burr,

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particularly back in the 2012 to 14 era, really pushing for merchant adoption.

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And we've seen a resurgence of that, particularly in the last year with your former company Block and Square specifically integrating it into their point of sale systems.

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And I think that's still one of the lingering questions in many Bitcoiners minds is like, when are enough people going to have Bitcoin and be willing to spend it for this use case specifically to make sense?

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Yeah, it's a big chicken and the egg thing.

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And when I look back at, you know, all the merchant adoption in 2013, 2014, I bought a laptop off overstock.com with on-chain Bitcoin.

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I don't even want to look back at that transaction and know how much money that's worth now.

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But it was there, right?

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You could buy things on overstock with on-chain Bitcoin.

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I think the issues were on-chain was slow.

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I mean, it's why lightning was invented, right?

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And also, Bitcoin hadn't really caught on yet.

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We were super early adopter days. Now it's 10 plus years later. Bitcoin has already had its big

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kind of investor, institutional investment phase, all the kind of memes around buying Bitcoin.

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More people own Bitcoin now. And also the technology is so much better. How far we've

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come with lightning is actually really impressive. And I think we're still at kind of the precipice

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of people reducing that to real practice, like actually taking the stuff we've done with Lightning

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and making it accessible for normal people. So I think back in the day, merchant adoption was a

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good idea, but the consumers weren't there. I think now we have the opposite problem. I think

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we have a lot of people who either hold Bitcoin or have access to send Bitcoin, and we don't have

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a lot of people accepting it. So we're kind of back at the beginning, but now I see a lot of

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demand on the consumer side. And we're just going to shore it up on the merchant side.

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I was told that lightning is a complete and utter failure.

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Yeah, this is what I was going crazy about in 2024. 2024 was such a dark time for lightning

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between Phoenix pulling out of the US and all that sort of uncertainty with the Biden

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administration. But at the time, that's when at C equals, our volumes were really changing.

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and we were seeing what went from something where everyone was just sending deposits to other

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exchanges, it started to shift towards payment size payments going to payment looking destinations

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in pretty good size for the Lightning Network. And that's somewhat captured in the River report.

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But yeah, I was going crazy in 2024. I mean, the fee market was a little wild too,

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but um you know i think what i was saying through all of that through all the ordinal stuff was

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this is going to blow over in like a year and we're going to be back to one sat per beat bite

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and we're going to be cruising and that's where we've ended up so you know lightning is definitely

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not dead a lot of people are using it and with money definitely i think a lot more people are

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going to be using it well what would you say are the most underappreciated or

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is completely misunderstood aspects of the Lightning Network and how it's being used today

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and how much activity is actually happening on it? I think people really get tied up with the

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technical details. I think as an industry with Bitcoin, we're really focused on science when we

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should be focused on engineering. And what I mean by that is everyone's looking at Lightning and

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they're looking at, okay, in a high fee market, it costs more to open channels or, okay, if I use

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UTXO sharing, then I can spread this cost out. And I think we're kind of looking at the wrong

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problems. I think what we really should be focusing on is how do we get this to people?

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How do we make this so people want to use it? And right now our fees are much, much lower than

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anything someone can use today. Like the person in India example, someone in India wants to take

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payments right now, they have to open an LLC in the US, which is just a giant cost right there.

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And then once you actually, if you can get on Stripe, once you're on Stripe and you're trying

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to take global payments, you start at, it's like 4.4% and you pay 1% on the currency exchange.

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So you're at like 5.4% if you're in the US. If you're outside the US, you're at 6.4% because

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say tag on another percent to exchange to your local currency. So all of this focus on lightning

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fees and like trying to get to micro BIPs for sending payments, it's not really the right focus

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because if I give someone payments in India right now, they're going to be like, wow, I could never

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have payments before and now I can have payments. So I feel like we micro focus on these things that

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are very, uh, abstract to normal people. And what we actually need to give is a nicely abstracted,

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uh, experience that someone can just use. Um, so there's so much with lightning and Bitcoin where

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it's just like, okay, this is cool. And this will help when we have, um, a hundred million users,

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but right now we don't have a hundred million people sending payments. So the actual things

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we need to do are totally different. And then when you say like sending payments,

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So I think to your point, another big update from the Block family companies, I think, was Cash App's ability to pay a Bitcoin invoice using your dollar balance on the app.

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So do you think more companies integrating that particular use case?

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Strike obviously has it as well.

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I think there are a few others that do that.

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but you think that's like a necessary low-level infrastructure

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that needs to be widely adopted to really allow money dev kit users

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to have incredible success because they're end users at the end of the day.

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If they have Cash App or Strike and they know that they don't actually need

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to hold Bitcoin to pay a Bitcoin invoice,

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that they can buy something without needing to worry about holding Bitcoin.

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Yeah, it's huge for us because, yeah, I mean, it's a much better experience.

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And it's something that I was really hammering on at Block is, hey, we should do this.

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We should make this very easy for someone to just send a Bitcoin payment.

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I tweeted about it a lot, too.

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But basically, yeah, it fills that medium of exchange use case that I think we're at right now.

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We have the UX to be able to convert from dollars to Bitcoin and send it anywhere And we have the liquidity in the exchanges to convert from Bitcoin to local currency anywhere else And that what people want They

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don't necessarily, there are definitely people who want Bitcoin and we love them. And they're

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going to do probably really well if they hold Bitcoin over the long term. But most people,

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they want money in their bank account and Bitcoin is uniquely positioned to deliver that.

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So I'm really happy that cashed that experience. And I think if you're running an exchange right now and you can see kind of the, if you're looking ahead, having this sort of auto convert on and off ramp, I know bull is doing it. I think bull Bitcoin is actually in a really good position and cash app and strike, of course.

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being able to be the on and off ramp for something like money dev kit is insanely valuable because

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we're going to have a lot of users who are creating apps, creating value, and they're

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going to want to just get money in their bank account. And that partnership, whether you're on

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the accepting side or you're partnering with a wallet, it's kind of the right setup to make money

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really flow. So that's why we use Cash App with every demo we have, because it's just so simple

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and quick. And it's such a good example. I could use Coinbase or I could use another app and you

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get there, but you have to like buy Bitcoin. You have to send it. I think if you're an exchange

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and you want to be forward thinking and you want to be in the future, you should be looking at Cash

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App and how they actually do their stuff. Yeah. What's the response been like?

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since you've been releasing these demos over the last few months i mean i think the replet one

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um was probably the biggest because obviously there's a lot of focus on replet specifically

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as people are getting into vibe coding but i have to imagine that um having that mcp um server

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integrated into replet could be massive for you guys yeah because it just works and people aren't

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used to that with payments we actually had um i had like a fintech payments pm say like hey where

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you to do the onboarding. I'd explain to them, oh, it's self-custody. You don't have to do this

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for self-custody. And I think people are just astounded that they can just add payments in

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five minutes. The access story is key, but the ease of use and the UX is actually kind of

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surprisingly what people are responding most about. They're like, I can't believe I can just

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do this this quickly. And especially I actually had one person say, oh, why should I use this next

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to Stripe? And I wasn't expecting I was thinking, OK, maybe most people are using this because they

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can't use Stripe. But that international payment story, if you want to take payments globally,

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you actually get hammered on fees to do that. So it's been interesting. There's a lot of cool

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websites that are being spun up right now. And whenever you put out a video, it's kind of a

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lagging effect. It's like, you know, you get hundreds of thousands of views and you get,

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you know, a thousand bookmarks. And those are all people who are going to go. It's really

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interesting for vibe coding and kind of this industry. It all happens nights and weekends.

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It's like someone doing a side project in their spare time. And, you know, it only takes

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eventually those hit and take off and people start investing more and more time into it.

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So it's been really cool to see what people create.

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And we're excited for what's next.

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What are some examples of things that people are using MoneyDevKit with?

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We have, you know, Matt Belez is a he's kind of a famous vibe coder.

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He was early on talking about vibe coding in Bitcoin.

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He's created Impressionista.fun.

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He told me that image generation is like the hello world of AI vibe coded apps.

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where you just make like a nice app that calls maybe the open AI image generation API. And he

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has a nice prompt to make them all like super aesthetic pictures. So he's using Money Dev Kit,

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which is really exciting. And it's kind of cool because you see vibe coders and you see how they're

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talked about online and you think it's just like someone who's really dumb who can't do anything.

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But in reality, they're making more and more sophisticated apps. So what started as an image

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generation website has now gone to, okay, you can display your images on the website and now you can

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receive tips. And Matt has gone from just simple one-time payments to now he's looking for a way

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to attract customers and a way to pay out to customers. So it's super interesting how someone

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goes from vibe coding something simple to now they're thinking about auth and databases and

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stuff like that. Another example is eCurrencyHodler on X. He is building SatDoku. So it's a

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Sudoku website where you can pay for more lives when you want to keep going, if you've made a

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mistake and you want to actually keep going. So that's a very simple, easy one-time payment.

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But now he's gone to add an AI assistant that actually makes you better at Sudoku and you can

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pay the AI assistant to actually make you better at Sudoku. So he is another example where he's

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started with something simple that's vibe coded, and now he's wanting to track customers. He's got

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a leaderboard. He's got all these features he wants to add that are now approaching what someone

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on X is talking about when they're making a very nice software as a service website.

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So it's really interesting.

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Someone who's really super early, they're already getting into stuff like Auth, databases, customers, all this stuff that we're looking at.

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What is your ideal customer in your mind?

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The ideal customer is someone in one of these countries that aren't served by Stripe.

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They have created an app that they think is valuable.

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And they pick up Money DevKit because they just want to get payments.

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and they don't have any other way to do it.

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That's where we really want to be.

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Our early customers are Bitcoiners who are excited.

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I mean, just day one, we've made it

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so that you can vibe code lighting payments

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into your website.

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And for Bitcoin, that kind of wasn't really a thing before.

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You'd have to run a server somewhere.

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You'd have to pay a monthly fee here

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to have just a library that you can take payments with

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is already like, I think, a huge upgrade

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for Bitcoin payments in the Bitcoin space.

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But our dream is to be in India, to be in all these people who are saying, I can't use Stripe on X.

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They start using MoneyDevKit because those are people who are not necessarily excited about Bitcoin.

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They're just excited about getting payments.

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And in a world where more and more people can make apps now and more and more people can make things that are valuable,

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being able to give them a payment solution that gets them that value, I think is tremendously.

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valuable yeah and on the topic of vibe coding uh not necessarily well maybe we can focus on money

387
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dev kit but how somebody who's been uh engineering products for pretty large massive corporations

388
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block obviously um for many years now how how profound is the emergence of these ai tools and

389
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what is your preferred stack if you don't mind me asking yeah it's uh it's amazing um so at block

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you know i said i was a hardware engineer i'm not actually a software engineer um and we had a team

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of software engineers building c equals uh we were using lightning dev kit um and the team would do a

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lot of the implementation i would do more like the product work and kind of defining where we're going

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But now at MoneyDevKit with AI, my stack, I use Cursor.

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I think people might call me an on canal for using Cursor.

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Everyone's in cloud code and, you know, on a terminal.

396
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But with Opus, actually, in the past month, there was a bunch of user feedback that we had in Linear.

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And we're like, OK, we'll get to this.

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You know, over the past few weeks, I've just been assigning them to Opus through Cursor.

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and just getting a lot done.

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And that's not something,

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even over this past year with Sonnet

402
00:35:50,815 --> 00:35:52,455
and all the other models, Codex,

403
00:35:52,775 --> 00:35:53,755
I was doing work,

404
00:35:53,835 --> 00:35:55,875
but I was never really confident that we could merge it.

405
00:35:55,995 --> 00:35:57,975
I would always have a developer look at it.

406
00:35:58,575 --> 00:36:01,475
Now with Opus, I can just,

407
00:36:02,095 --> 00:36:03,635
I need something different on the website.

408
00:36:03,955 --> 00:36:05,915
I need something different with this experience.

409
00:36:06,395 --> 00:36:07,615
I can prompt it.

410
00:36:08,915 --> 00:36:11,035
And it's something we merged like that day.

411
00:36:11,035 --> 00:36:13,595
So our speed has really increased.

412
00:36:13,595 --> 00:36:15,335
It's really dramatic.

413
00:36:16,535 --> 00:36:21,795
A lot of people are talking about this online now, like Opus is one-shotting all these things.

414
00:36:22,055 --> 00:36:22,855
It's true.

415
00:36:23,035 --> 00:36:28,055
And it's now at a point where instead of being the annoying CEO who's like, hey, can we get

416
00:36:28,055 --> 00:36:31,215
this in someday, you know, I can just go do it.

417
00:36:31,615 --> 00:36:39,235
And so now I'm picking up all those kind of annoying, not quite super, you know, hard

418
00:36:39,235 --> 00:36:39,735
tickets.

419
00:36:39,735 --> 00:36:46,135
I can just do all those in a weekend and then we're, you know, we're onto the big important stuff.

420
00:36:46,355 --> 00:36:49,675
So it's, uh, it's truly like a, a really big change.

421
00:36:50,915 --> 00:36:56,075
In terms of the amount of headcount that you think you'll need in the long run,

422
00:36:56,115 --> 00:36:56,975
how does it affect that?

423
00:36:57,055 --> 00:36:59,935
Like how big do you think you can get money dev kit with?

424
00:37:00,695 --> 00:37:04,375
Yeah, we're not really focused on making money dev kit.

425
00:37:04,375 --> 00:37:08,855
Like this giant team, um, will grow to whatever we need to.

426
00:37:08,855 --> 00:37:17,635
But right now we have four developers and we're hiring a designer soon.

427
00:37:17,915 --> 00:37:20,955
And I feel pretty good about that.

428
00:37:21,295 --> 00:37:23,535
I think that's a really good place to be.

429
00:37:24,075 --> 00:37:29,395
And we have a lot of, you know, with Money Dev Kit, we are doing a lot of specialized stuff behind the scenes.

430
00:37:29,395 --> 00:37:31,815
We're doing all the lightning stack.

431
00:37:31,835 --> 00:37:34,675
We're running everything that Spiral has basically.

432
00:37:35,455 --> 00:37:37,835
And we're doing a lot of kind of special stuff.

433
00:37:37,835 --> 00:37:40,915
We're ahead of the LSP spec.

434
00:37:41,075 --> 00:37:45,115
We're doing all these kind of things that are very custom lightning things that AI can't

435
00:37:45,115 --> 00:37:45,335
do.

436
00:37:45,475 --> 00:37:49,315
So we'll always need kind of our lightning experts we've been lucky to hire.

437
00:37:50,035 --> 00:37:57,075
But for the feature work, when we talk about, hey, how quickly can we make something that

438
00:37:57,075 --> 00:38:00,695
matches Stripe in terms of subscriptions and features?

439
00:38:02,115 --> 00:38:03,755
I think we can get there really quickly.

440
00:38:04,175 --> 00:38:04,835
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441
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442
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455
00:39:11,555 --> 00:39:14,115
It would be remiss of us not to touch on it.

456
00:39:15,835 --> 00:39:16,995
Sorry, I haven't done it yet.

457
00:39:17,055 --> 00:39:21,515
But non-custodial lightning, that's been a white whale in the Bitcoin space for a while.

458
00:39:21,575 --> 00:39:23,675
And I know the LDK team, I've been talking to Matt Corallo.

459
00:39:23,675 --> 00:39:27,275
He, in Vegas earlier this year, when I saw him in person,

460
00:39:27,535 --> 00:39:30,175
and he came on the show and said it publicly, so I feel comfortable saying it.

461
00:39:30,235 --> 00:39:33,155
He's like, this is the year of non-custodial lightning.

462
00:39:33,595 --> 00:39:36,775
And obviously, you guys are implementing that at MoneyDevKit.

463
00:39:36,835 --> 00:39:39,015
What's changed recently to make this viable?

464
00:39:39,015 --> 00:39:46,435
i've always believed in self-custodial lightning and what we're doing at c equals was really to um

465
00:39:46,435 --> 00:39:55,275
further that uh the not a ton of this changed i think back to 2023 when we're doing like mutiny

466
00:39:55,275 --> 00:40:02,855
i was so excited about mutiny i was a big mutiny user the mutiny guys shout out to ben and to tony

467
00:40:02,855 --> 00:40:08,235
and to paul they took the first draft of self-custody lightning and they did everything

468
00:40:08,235 --> 00:40:13,655
they could with it and they found all the bugs they found all the hard stuff um you know the ldk

469
00:40:13,655 --> 00:40:20,715
team really kind of decided hey we want to make mobile lightning work and that is really hard and

470
00:40:20,715 --> 00:40:25,155
i think i consider like mutiny kind of the first generation of lightning wallets where

471
00:40:25,155 --> 00:40:31,695
they figured everything out and uh i think um a lot of those bugs are ironed out now and a lot of

472
00:40:31,695 --> 00:40:38,135
that stuff um has been figured out on on the backs of things like mutiny i think matt's right

473
00:40:38,135 --> 00:40:42,755
in the next year, I think we'll see a lot more self-custody lightning.

474
00:40:43,915 --> 00:40:57,702
You know the way everything panned out with the fee market and kind of the early take on self lightning payments people got disillusioned People went and created whole new L2s

475
00:40:58,762 --> 00:41:00,143
Was it super necessary?

476
00:41:00,282 --> 00:41:00,903
I don't know.

477
00:41:02,282 --> 00:41:08,982
But yeah, I think now everything's a lot more refined and we have a lot better idea of how

478
00:41:08,982 --> 00:41:10,043
to make things work.

479
00:41:10,643 --> 00:41:15,123
So, I mean, our entire company is staked on self custody lighting right now and it's working

480
00:41:15,123 --> 00:41:15,482
amazing.

481
00:41:15,482 --> 00:41:21,262
what was the biggest thing that mutiny figured out was the uh keeping private keys and to secure

482
00:41:21,262 --> 00:41:27,843
enclave in the cloud is it channel management lsp stuff mutiny took ldk kind of to its limit

483
00:41:27,843 --> 00:41:34,582
of running in the browser and really being super lightweight which was something no one had really

484
00:41:34,582 --> 00:41:41,403
attempted before um to that extent and i think in doing that they found there's no like one big

485
00:41:41,403 --> 00:41:46,722
thing where it was like, hey, we figured this out and now everything works. It was a bunch of little

486
00:41:46,722 --> 00:41:52,942
tiny bugs that, you know, pre-AI, I'm just thinking about that little three-person team

487
00:41:52,942 --> 00:41:57,762
going through all the support and everything. It goes back to a little bit of what I was saying

488
00:41:57,762 --> 00:42:02,222
before. It's the engineering. It's like, in theory, everything should have worked with Lightning.

489
00:42:02,563 --> 00:42:07,942
But in practice, when you have users and they're actually finding all those edge cases and corner

490
00:42:07,942 --> 00:42:13,823
cases, um, it's really hard work, but what you end up with is a much more refined product.

491
00:42:14,143 --> 00:42:20,742
So like, you know, the force closes the, the fee stuff, anchor channels, all these sorts of things

492
00:42:20,742 --> 00:42:29,163
have made the experience so much better. Um, and now I think it's up to, um, someone with a good

493
00:42:29,163 --> 00:42:34,863
amount of kind of product vision to really take what we have, the lightning primitives and make

494
00:42:34,863 --> 00:42:40,742
it a really nicely polished product. What is lacking from Lightning that you would like to

495
00:42:40,742 --> 00:42:47,523
see and make your life easier, if anything? My big thing is subscriptions. So we can make

496
00:42:47,523 --> 00:42:53,523
subscriptions work at MoneyDevKit in a way that I think is okay for someone who's an early adopter.

497
00:42:54,163 --> 00:43:02,063
But what Lightning really lacks is a native way to do pull payments. I actually talked about this

498
00:43:02,063 --> 00:43:08,363
recently on X said, saying, uh, Hey, we should bring back this bolt 12 or current spec. I think,

499
00:43:08,363 --> 00:43:14,923
uh, Rusty's been working on it and, uh, um, Christian responded as well. Um, just this way

500
00:43:14,923 --> 00:43:21,502
to let people do recurring payments. That's how everyone pays their bills. It's how they pay for

501
00:43:21,502 --> 00:43:27,523
Netflix. It's a very expected thing that you can sign up for a service, um, give your payment

502
00:43:27,523 --> 00:43:33,383
details and just have it work. So that's kind of what I'm ringing the bell about nowadays.

503
00:43:33,843 --> 00:43:41,123
It's more the payment protocol stuff as opposed to we need this very specific low-level feature.

504
00:43:41,363 --> 00:43:45,323
It's the stuff that makes payments work on kind of a higher level.

505
00:43:46,363 --> 00:43:49,482
What's holding that up right now, recurring payments?

506
00:43:49,482 --> 00:44:10,563
I think it's just a classic open source spec process when you're trying to get something that multiple implementations are going to use. Everyone has their own priorities. I think the Lightning ecosystem deserves a lot of credit here because you have three different clients that are effectively interoperating on Lightning.

507
00:44:10,563 --> 00:44:16,183
I think it's actually like a huge achievement and everyone's talking about Bitcoin core all the time.

508
00:44:16,323 --> 00:44:19,843
But what's happening in the lightning spec meetings is actually pretty impressive.

509
00:44:20,403 --> 00:44:24,063
So I have to find out exactly what it's going to take.

510
00:44:24,063 --> 00:44:28,823
I think to actually get something like that and you need at least two implementations.

511
00:44:29,222 --> 00:44:34,063
But the big thing to really make that feature work while it's need to adopt it.

512
00:44:34,063 --> 00:44:46,442
And that's why I say, you know, if you have a Lightning integration, you really want to be on the latest stuff so that you can interoperate with, you know, the coolest features.

513
00:44:47,302 --> 00:44:47,343
Yeah.

514
00:44:48,143 --> 00:44:49,323
Yeah, that's my big question.

515
00:44:49,383 --> 00:44:51,423
Bringing this back to like stable coins versus Lightning too.

516
00:44:51,843 --> 00:44:58,143
Again, it seems like the focus in the broader tech, fintech sectors on stable coins.

517
00:44:58,143 --> 00:45:03,363
And I think you and I both agree that Lightning is a superior technology.

518
00:45:03,363 --> 00:45:07,903
Bitcoin is a superior technology. What do you think it's going to take for the broader market

519
00:45:07,903 --> 00:45:13,823
to recognize that? I think just better high level abstractions, like what we're doing with money

520
00:45:13,823 --> 00:45:17,982
dev kit, it's money dev kit. Like if you go on our website, we actually don't talk about Bitcoin.

521
00:45:17,982 --> 00:45:22,982
We're big Bitcoin believers. We're all Bitcoiners, but we're not trying to sell Bitcoin,

522
00:45:23,102 --> 00:45:30,183
the asset we're trying to sell the access and the ability to actually be on the network and actually

523
00:45:30,183 --> 00:45:36,863
accept and receive value. So I think that's a big part of it. And yeah, I think Bitcoin has a real

524
00:45:36,863 --> 00:45:40,802
clear advantage because when you try to use stable coins right now, Marty, I don't know if

525
00:45:40,802 --> 00:45:47,343
you've ever used a stable coin app recently or even go and try to pay a stable coin payment.

526
00:45:47,962 --> 00:45:54,863
It's pick your stable coin, pick the chain, only send USDC on base or you'll lose all your money.

527
00:45:54,863 --> 00:46:00,703
And then there's no privacy. This is actually a really terrible experience beyond just the

528
00:46:00,703 --> 00:46:08,982
liquidity and the access. People aren't doing this. That's why I'm saying it's a meme that's

529
00:46:08,982 --> 00:46:16,403
going to go away. I think in the US, maybe stablecoin rails get tucked under bank accounts

530
00:46:16,403 --> 00:46:23,023
or something like that. And that's fine. Stripe's going to make more money. But for people around

531
00:46:23,023 --> 00:46:27,742
the world who want to take global payments having something that's really truly interoperable and

532
00:46:27,742 --> 00:46:34,023
is very simple is going to be the thing that wins yeah that's funny i i have avoided

533
00:46:34,023 --> 00:46:38,623
successfully and who knows maybe i'm a load eight maybe i'm not doing as much uh

534
00:46:39,543 --> 00:46:44,203
research as i should be but i've observed enough to understand that the friction

535
00:46:44,203 --> 00:46:49,422
is there and i don't want to i don't want to go through the brain damage and figuring it out

536
00:46:49,422 --> 00:46:51,623
I just have to keep myself honest.

537
00:46:51,922 --> 00:46:52,523
It's funny.

538
00:46:52,643 --> 00:46:58,903
I have contractors that live that will do work for us outside the U.S.,

539
00:46:58,903 --> 00:47:01,063
and I've had them send me stablecoin invoices.

540
00:47:01,242 --> 00:47:02,222
I'm like, I don't have stablecoins.

541
00:47:02,282 --> 00:47:04,643
Just send me a Bitcoin address, and they reply in five minutes

542
00:47:04,643 --> 00:47:05,482
with a Bitcoin address.

543
00:47:05,663 --> 00:47:09,023
It's much easier for me.

544
00:47:09,102 --> 00:47:13,363
Obviously, I'm a hardcore Bitcoiner, but it's just as easy to spin up

545
00:47:13,363 --> 00:47:16,183
a Bitcoin wallet and send an address and receive that money

546
00:47:16,183 --> 00:47:20,442
and the complexity of the stable coin landscape as such,

547
00:47:20,482 --> 00:47:22,762
where it's like, I think there's a lot of noise

548
00:47:22,762 --> 00:47:25,742
and there's going to be a lot of capital burn focusing on that.

549
00:47:26,582 --> 00:47:29,823
And that's a testament, actually, to the pain people feel

550
00:47:29,823 --> 00:47:31,482
when they're trying to take global payments.

551
00:47:31,482 --> 00:47:34,063
It's like they're going through all of that complexity

552
00:47:34,063 --> 00:47:36,222
just to be able to get something.

553
00:47:36,722 --> 00:47:40,942
So I think we can give them a much better experience with Bitcoin.

554
00:47:40,942 --> 00:47:47,543
yeah what um what would you say to anybody listening to this uh how could they

555
00:47:47,543 --> 00:47:54,703
get involved and help money dev kits uh dream come true in terms of getting bitcoin payments

556
00:47:54,703 --> 00:48:00,903
spread on the internet as vibe coding includes make something cool we're at a time where you

557
00:48:00,903 --> 00:48:07,883
can just make stuff and we you know the barriers to actually writing code have been tremendously

558
00:48:07,883 --> 00:48:14,323
lowered. I think a lot of people, like some people have like an aversion to AI. I understand where

559
00:48:14,323 --> 00:48:19,843
that comes from. But if you have an idea, you can just build it right now and you can go on

560
00:48:19,843 --> 00:48:25,782
replet and you can say, hey, make me this. It's not perfect, but it works really well. And if you

561
00:48:25,782 --> 00:48:32,683
want to take payments, you can just use money dev kit. We're working on integrations that let you

562
00:48:32,683 --> 00:48:37,802
very easily get cash in your bank account. So you don't necessarily have to be a Bitcoin

563
00:48:37,802 --> 00:48:43,482
believer but the more people who use this stuff and show that it's valuable it's better for the

564
00:48:43,482 --> 00:48:48,462
ecosystem because more people are sending bitcoin payments um better in my mind yeah

565
00:48:48,462 --> 00:48:55,742
it is great i mean i think the example that you gave earlier is very in line with how i've been

566
00:48:55,742 --> 00:49:02,643
vibe coding where like when you were starting out money dev kit just using sonnet to get the the

567
00:49:02,643 --> 00:49:07,883
proof of concepts mvp together like everything that i vibe coded that's how i use it like i'll

568
00:49:07,883 --> 00:49:15,462
use repliator plot code get it to a certain point then have the self-awareness to understand that i

569
00:49:15,462 --> 00:49:22,762
don't understand the um the the holes that could exist in the thing i vibe coded and then i find

570
00:49:22,762 --> 00:49:27,363
a competent developer and say hey here's this thing do you see what i'm trying to build here

571
00:49:27,363 --> 00:49:33,123
like can you make sure it's not insecure and actually works and and it off and the thing

572
00:49:33,123 --> 00:49:39,363
gets built i think it's that's another important thing to recognize with vibe coding if you're not

573
00:49:39,363 --> 00:49:45,843
a software engineer and you don't understand um where you could foot gun yourself you can get it

574
00:49:45,843 --> 00:49:50,222
to a certain place find a developer doesn't know what they're doing and they can take it from there

575
00:49:50,222 --> 00:49:57,222
pretty sure yeah i mean that's how i felt in april i think now i feel like you could probably

576
00:49:57,222 --> 00:50:03,903
just send it. If you're going to build a business where you're handling or helping people send and

577
00:50:03,903 --> 00:50:09,663
receive payments, maybe have someone look at that. But for most ideas, they're pretty low stakes.

578
00:50:10,242 --> 00:50:15,163
And you're not handling other people's money. And if you're using MoneyDevKit,

579
00:50:15,602 --> 00:50:23,262
we've got all that taken care of for you. So I would say don't lose your confidence,

580
00:50:23,262 --> 00:50:25,742
I think you could send it without a developer right now.

581
00:50:26,643 --> 00:50:32,043
Well, I still need to get better at the, uh, just like the backend.

582
00:50:32,143 --> 00:50:34,823
So like setting up for sale, like I'm still learning how to do that.

583
00:50:34,823 --> 00:50:44,982
Like getting the domain and sending up the DNS, like all that, all that stuff, that system admin stuff that, uh, I'm not trained in getting more familiar with it.

584
00:50:45,543 --> 00:50:49,123
So stuff like that, where I need the last mile help.

585
00:50:49,922 --> 00:50:50,323
Yeah.

586
00:50:50,323 --> 00:50:52,863
Yeah, the cool thing is you can actually learn a lot too,

587
00:50:53,063 --> 00:50:54,482
like just telling the agent to do it.

588
00:50:54,602 --> 00:50:56,823
And if it can't do it, a lot of times it'll be like,

589
00:50:56,883 --> 00:50:58,063
well, here's what I would do.

590
00:50:58,663 --> 00:51:01,482
And yeah, there is still, I think I'm a little bit of an advantage

591
00:51:01,482 --> 00:51:03,823
because I definitely am a bit of a nerd

592
00:51:03,823 --> 00:51:06,383
and I'm running nodes and doing all that stuff.

593
00:51:06,502 --> 00:51:10,403
So there is some base level knowledge, but you can get really far.

594
00:51:11,623 --> 00:51:14,962
So having been in Bitcoin for a while now

595
00:51:14,962 --> 00:51:19,183
and being on the cutting edge of building products

596
00:51:19,183 --> 00:51:20,883
that have touched millions of people.

597
00:51:24,403 --> 00:51:27,543
What are your thoughts on the current state of Bitcoin broadly?

598
00:51:28,742 --> 00:51:34,043
The network, the sort of social movement behind it,

599
00:51:34,143 --> 00:51:35,543
I don't know, for lack of a better term,

600
00:51:35,762 --> 00:51:37,082
the awareness, the brand awareness.

601
00:51:38,082 --> 00:51:41,163
Is Bitcoin exceeding your expectations?

602
00:51:41,683 --> 00:51:43,843
Has it come up short in 2026?

603
00:51:43,843 --> 00:51:45,422
Is it right where you thought it would be?

604
00:51:45,683 --> 00:51:48,282
Like, how is Bitcoin doing in your mind?

605
00:51:49,183 --> 00:51:56,602
I like where Bitcoin is, honestly. I think we've come really far. I think we still focus on things

606
00:51:56,602 --> 00:52:04,683
that are too low level that people don't care about. Most people, HTTP, TCP, these protocols

607
00:52:04,683 --> 00:52:10,102
that run the internet, very important. They're very passionate people who have put a lot of time

608
00:52:10,102 --> 00:52:15,703
into making that work. And they're there with the Linux Foundation on all those mailing lists,

609
00:52:15,703 --> 00:52:23,183
and they're still slaving away at the low level things that make things work. But most people,

610
00:52:23,383 --> 00:52:28,023
they just use Facebook. They don't care about HTTP or TCP or anything like that.

611
00:52:28,543 --> 00:52:35,863
So when I think about Bitcoin, I see us focusing a lot on the very low level things that no one

612
00:52:35,863 --> 00:52:40,462
cares about. And not a lot of people are building the high level stuff that people will actually

613
00:52:40,462 --> 00:52:45,982
about. So, you know, I'm really happy where the tech is. I think there's still things we have to

614
00:52:45,982 --> 00:52:51,222
do. There's always upgrades we have to do. There's always things we need to fix. Nothing is perfect.

615
00:52:51,722 --> 00:52:57,242
But I think the real focus for Bitcoin 2026 and beyond is making things that people actually want

616
00:52:57,242 --> 00:53:02,582
to use. And that's a different kind of heart. Like it's not the spec work and, you know,

617
00:53:02,582 --> 00:53:10,602
the interoperability and, you know, um, consensus and the mempool stuff, it's more taking it up to

618
00:53:10,602 --> 00:53:15,563
a level where someone's actually using it and finding out how they break it, where the sharp

619
00:53:15,563 --> 00:53:22,703
edges are. Um, it's different hard work that we need to be doing. Um, and that's why I say also,

620
00:53:22,703 --> 00:53:26,942
if you have an idea for an app, um, and you want to take payments or you want to send payments,

621
00:53:26,962 --> 00:53:30,222
or you want to make a wallet, you should just do it because we need it.

622
00:53:30,222 --> 00:53:34,323
this may be controversial, but do you think we need better tastemakers on

623
00:53:34,323 --> 00:53:40,163
Bitcoin app development specifically? Oh yeah, absolutely. Um, Matt Belez is actually really

624
00:53:40,163 --> 00:53:44,782
good with this. He makes some cool stuff. Um, and you know, when you talk about tastes,

625
00:53:44,782 --> 00:53:51,602
there's like technical taste, which is actually a big part of it. Like just the way you use Bitcoin

626
00:53:51,602 --> 00:53:56,802
and lightning, there's like a certain technical taste there, but there's also just, yeah, the

627
00:53:56,802 --> 00:54:03,282
higher level, more broadly appealing taste of what do people want to use? And it's not even just...

628
00:54:03,962 --> 00:54:07,482
I think when people talk about taste, they're thinking like the way something looks, but the

629
00:54:07,482 --> 00:54:14,462
way something is used and feels. A lot of people out there, the first thing you do when you have a

630
00:54:14,462 --> 00:54:20,163
new cool tool with a bunch of configuration options is you make an app and you expose every option.

631
00:54:20,623 --> 00:54:24,482
And then you can configure everything. And you as a person who appreciates the technology, you're

632
00:54:24,482 --> 00:54:26,102
like, yes, this is so cool.

633
00:54:26,102 --> 00:54:27,742
I can do all these things.

634
00:54:27,742 --> 00:54:30,742
But someone who just needs a technology,

635
00:54:30,768 --> 00:54:34,268
isn't actually isn't actually into it.

636
00:54:34,428 --> 00:54:39,888
They want the very highly opinionated paved path that does everything for you.

637
00:54:40,028 --> 00:54:41,568
And that's what we need more of in Bitcoin.

638
00:54:42,168 --> 00:54:42,288
Yeah.

639
00:54:42,828 --> 00:54:48,068
What is an app that doesn't exist that you think should exist and could basically unlock

640
00:54:48,068 --> 00:54:49,168
that that recognition?

641
00:54:49,288 --> 00:54:49,728
Because I agree.

642
00:54:49,808 --> 00:54:54,528
I think Bitcoin app developers are people integrating Bitcoin into their app.

643
00:54:54,568 --> 00:54:58,828
We still haven't crossed the chasm of like tapping into the zeitgeist and being part

644
00:54:58,828 --> 00:54:59,948
of something that goes viral.

645
00:55:00,768 --> 00:55:06,168
I mean, outside of like Cash App and all that, but those are like exchanges and payment wallets.

646
00:55:06,168 --> 00:55:25,308
But I'm looking for something outside of Bitcoin that integrates it in a novel way that the product's so good that even though it has Bitcoin integrated and that may seem to be a hurdle for most people want to use it, the experience is so good that they figure out how to use Bitcoin anyway.

647
00:55:26,148 --> 00:55:27,868
The big thing for me was MoneyDevKit.

648
00:55:28,008 --> 00:55:29,048
That's why I wouldn't make that.

649
00:55:29,048 --> 00:55:36,348
but beyond money dev kit, it's all these websites. I did a video on this. There's all these websites

650
00:55:36,348 --> 00:55:42,608
where you just Google, you have to do one thing. I did SVG to ping. You have like a nice SVG logo.

651
00:55:42,988 --> 00:55:47,828
You want to put it somewhere else. You have to make it a ping file. I could, you know, there's

652
00:55:47,828 --> 00:55:52,828
probably some terminal app that I could install that'll do it super easily. But what I actually do

653
00:55:52,828 --> 00:55:58,768
is I Google SVG to ping. I go to a really gross website with a million ads on it and I put it in.

654
00:55:59,048 --> 00:56:02,588
So I made a website where you can do that, but instead of seeing a bunch of gross ads,

655
00:56:02,988 --> 00:56:08,308
you just do a quick micropayment and then you're done. There's so much low hanging fruit like that

656
00:56:08,308 --> 00:56:16,568
that I think could be a lot nicer. And yeah, just like anything where you just want to do

657
00:56:16,568 --> 00:56:27,691
global payments so you just want it to work Just anything that cool just make it add payments to it There a bunch of really interesting industries that Stripe doesn serve

658
00:56:27,771 --> 00:56:32,191
It's beyond just, you know, the 120 countries they don't serve.

659
00:56:32,410 --> 00:56:34,611
It's like fortune telling apps.

660
00:56:35,111 --> 00:56:40,311
One of the coolest things I actually saw recently was this website called Chart2AI.

661
00:56:41,191 --> 00:56:42,930
And it's are you into astrology, Marty?

662
00:56:42,930 --> 00:56:43,691
You got to.

663
00:56:43,691 --> 00:56:51,651
I, there are many people in my, my, my family that are into astrology, my sister and my wife.

664
00:56:52,251 --> 00:56:56,390
They would love this because basically what it does, you put in your information,

665
00:56:56,390 --> 00:57:01,671
it gives you a birth chart. And then someone has just gone through and integrated with AI to

666
00:57:01,671 --> 00:57:07,751
basically put in all the astrology knowledge ever, and they've made it. So you basically put

667
00:57:07,751 --> 00:57:13,510
in your information, you get this super long prompt and you plug it into chat GPT and it gives

668
00:57:13,510 --> 00:57:17,970
you like the best horoscope reading you could ever get. Like it was, I, I did it, you know,

669
00:57:17,970 --> 00:57:22,711
I'm not a big astrology guy, but you know, just see, see what it's like. It was like telling me

670
00:57:22,711 --> 00:57:27,651
about my life, like current life at that moment in ways I was like, wait, how do you know this?

671
00:57:27,970 --> 00:57:33,570
So, um, that's really cool. But the interesting thing, so you should try as chart two dot AI,

672
00:57:33,851 --> 00:57:38,851
but the interesting, interesting thing is Stripe actually doesn't serve fortune telling services.

673
00:57:38,851 --> 00:57:49,231
So if you are, you know, you're driving along and you see like the psychic on the side of the road, they can't use Stripe because, you know, it's a high risk industry for that.

674
00:57:49,290 --> 00:57:51,151
Maybe some chargebacks or something like that.

675
00:57:51,691 --> 00:57:54,311
If you make an app like that, you basically need to use MoneyDevKit.

676
00:57:54,611 --> 00:57:57,671
There's a lot of businesses like that where it's like totally legal.

677
00:57:58,091 --> 00:58:02,351
Everything's above board, but you can't actually be banked if you're in that business.

678
00:58:02,351 --> 00:58:07,111
So maybe your wife or your sister, you said,

679
00:58:07,111 --> 00:58:18,613
maybe they want to make an app with astrology or something like that They could use Money Dev Kit uh i gonna have to give i gonna have to give them the advice ladies it time to start vibe coding

680
00:58:19,893 --> 00:58:25,333
and you can work on it together um this is fascinating this is awesome thank you um thank

681
00:58:25,333 --> 00:58:31,413
you for building money dev kit number one i think i completely agree we need something as simple as

682
00:58:31,413 --> 00:58:38,053
like an api call in cli to get payments integrated in apps and the fact that i think the way you've

683
00:58:38,053 --> 00:58:43,973
approach the market specifically building a replet mcp at a time when it's one of the hottest

684
00:58:43,973 --> 00:58:51,953
companies in the world is strategically uh incredibly sappy um and so i hope and obviously

685
00:58:51,953 --> 00:58:58,413
amjad is a bitcoiner too and don't want to dox anybody but i know there's bitcoiners in uh very

686
00:58:58,413 --> 00:59:03,793
strategic places within replet specifically and so uh it will be cool to see if they lean into it

687
00:59:03,793 --> 00:59:09,973
And do they do you know if they have any plans of like highlighting money dev kit within Replit?

688
00:59:10,073 --> 00:59:12,913
Like, hey, if you want to add payments, here's one of the easiest option.

689
00:59:13,393 --> 00:59:15,113
Amjad already blasted us out.

690
00:59:15,573 --> 00:59:22,953
It's a dream for Replit because we were talking to Replit a few years ago and, you know, they were talking about how they had all these users.

691
00:59:23,113 --> 00:59:25,013
But 80 percent of them were outside the U.S.

692
00:59:25,233 --> 00:59:27,933
That's where Replit started really with the underserved.

693
00:59:28,393 --> 00:59:30,973
And now I think maybe that balance is a little different.

694
00:59:30,973 --> 00:59:37,533
but they have 30 million users and I'm willing to bet a big proportion of them just can't monetize

695
00:59:37,533 --> 00:59:42,013
these cool websites that they're making. So I think it's a match made in heaven. And of course,

696
00:59:42,013 --> 00:59:49,693
we're talking to Replit now about how we can keep going with that. But yeah, it's exactly where

697
00:59:49,693 --> 00:59:56,953
Amjad wants to be. He's talked about how access to creating software and creating cool things

698
00:59:56,953 --> 00:59:58,793
is kind of Replit's mission.

699
00:59:58,953 --> 01:00:11,875
And our mission is access for payments So I think it a really cool thing And I hope we can go further with it oh yeah working uh anybody is so curious find out more about money dev kit more about you

700
01:00:11,875 --> 01:00:18,675
um get involved for me i'm nick slaney on x for money dev kit just go to my dev kit.com

701
01:00:18,675 --> 01:00:26,195
docs.moneydevkit.com um just ask your agent to add money dev kit to your app and uh yeah feel

702
01:00:26,195 --> 01:00:27,515
feel free to ping me if you need help.

703
01:00:27,635 --> 01:00:30,435
I'm happy to hop in Replit multiplayer

704
01:00:30,435 --> 01:00:33,256
and help you out if something's getting stuck.

705
01:00:33,635 --> 01:00:35,535
But the idea is you just ask your agent

706
01:00:35,535 --> 01:00:37,935
to add my dev kit and it just works.

707
01:00:38,956 --> 01:00:39,476
Go do it, Freaks.

708
01:00:39,535 --> 01:00:41,035
I know a lot of you are vibe coding out there.

709
01:00:41,396 --> 01:00:41,775
Get on it.

710
01:00:42,215 --> 01:00:42,675
Get on it.

711
01:00:43,695 --> 01:00:45,055
Nick, thank you for your time.

712
01:00:45,595 --> 01:00:46,775
This has been incredible.

713
01:00:46,896 --> 01:00:47,715
Hopefully we can do it again

714
01:00:47,715 --> 01:00:48,675
at some point in the future.

715
01:00:49,215 --> 01:00:49,875
Thanks a lot, Marty.

716
01:00:49,875 --> 01:00:51,595
Yeah, I had a good time.

717
01:00:51,695 --> 01:00:52,896
Glad to, happy to do it again.

718
01:00:53,416 --> 01:00:53,655
Awesome.

719
01:00:53,856 --> 01:00:54,476
Peace and love, Freaks.

720
01:00:54,476 --> 01:00:57,476
Thank you for listening to this episode of TFTC.

721
01:00:57,916 --> 01:01:01,535
If you've made it this far, I imagine you got some value out of the episode.

722
01:01:01,916 --> 01:01:05,896
If so, please share it far and wide with your friends and family.

723
01:01:05,976 --> 01:01:07,356
We're looking to get the word out there.

724
01:01:08,135 --> 01:01:14,095
Also, wherever you're listening, whether that's YouTube, Apple, Spotify, make sure you like

725
01:01:14,095 --> 01:01:15,456
and subscribe to the show.

726
01:01:15,595 --> 01:01:20,175
And if you can leave a rating on the podcasting platforms, that goes a long way.

727
01:01:20,175 --> 01:01:28,256
Last but not least, if you want to get these episodes a day early and ad-free, make sure you download the Fountain podcasting app.

728
01:01:28,756 --> 01:01:31,015
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729
01:01:31,775 --> 01:01:35,515
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730
01:01:36,316 --> 01:01:38,615
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731
01:01:39,555 --> 01:01:42,836
So please consider subscribing via Fountain as well.

732
01:01:43,396 --> 01:01:45,695
Thank you for your time, and until next time.

733
01:01:46,336 --> 01:01:46,515
Okay.

734
01:01:50,175 --> 01:02:20,155
Thank you.