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million is it me or is the world going crazy

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i guess those two are not mutually exclusive right but uh the world's getting crazier by the

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day for sure yeah more interesting more chaotic yeah it feels like uh

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it feels like we're like a heart not a hard fork like a fork in the road

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There's things that are incredibly exciting, powerful, and optimistic.

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And then you have other things.

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I originally reached out, it was like three or four weeks ago, you were on a little vacation.

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So we scheduled it for this, but it was to talk about the UK, aid verification laws,

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censorship, and the importance of open protocols like NOSTER.

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But things have just escalated since then.

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they want to ban vpns now totally i mean once you go down this path of trying to control everything

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like where does it end you kind of really need to uh you know close all the exits as they like to say

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the all the escape routes yeah well i mean it ends uh i don't want to smirk here but it ends

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typically with camps, suffering, mass death,

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if you continue down the path.

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That's why it's important to leverage the tools that we have today

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in terms of open protocols

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and the communications technology to get the message out.

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That's the big question I have.

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Are we at a point in human history where

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we have all these tools at our fingertips?

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Can we actually use them to prevent, at least in Western society, the devolution into pure Orwellian socialist communists, authoritarian hellscape?

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Well, the open protocols give us that chance, right?

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Like if we're using the legacy closed systems, we just don't have a chance, right?

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Because that's a single throat to choke.

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if any government makes any new rule that forbids a certain type of speech.

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If you're dealing with a closed platform, it's the end of the story.

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They'll just have to tell X or whoever, close this down,

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and companies need to comply.

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That's the end of it.

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That content only exists behind their wall in their walled garden.

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since they fully control it, they certainly can comply.

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And the governments know that.

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When it comes to open protocols,

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I don't think we automatically win by default

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just because we're using open protocols.

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Open protocols give us that chance to kind of fight back and resist this.

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But there's still quite a bit of work that needs to be done

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by a lot of people to win, so to speak.

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And I'm not like super gloomy about all of these things that we're seeing everywhere.

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I kind of look at it more from the point of view of, hey, this is a test for us.

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This is something that's giving us an opportunity to grow, to step up, assert our own sovereignty over our online lives, over our wealth, our money, our transactions and so forth.

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there are a number of us who build tools for people who wish to step up and use them

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and like I said we get that opportunity and it's up to us to see how we're going to use the tools

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to assert our sovereignty. Yeah somebody on the bleeding edge of the open protocol

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that is Noster what are what are some of the unique ways you've observed people

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not only leveraging primal, but just leveraging Nostre to really stick an eye in the, or a needle in the eye of sensors or creating cool applications that leverage Nostre relays in some way to create robust applications that are very hard to censor.

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Yeah, I don't even think it's about sticking a needle in the eye of anyone.

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It's just like we want to be free.

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The people out there who would like to censor and all these monstrous organizations,

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they're doing their thing, and we're doing our thing.

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We're not necessarily fighting the existing system.

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We're just building a new system and enabling people to join them as they wish.

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And to answer your question, lots of new stuff being built all the time.

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A lot of it is really exciting.

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You know, not even talking about Primal.

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So outside of Primal, the cool things we've seen on Nostra recently is, for example, Jack Dorsey's BitChat app, which he vibe-coded over a weekend,

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which uses Bluetooth-enabled mesh network to communicate with devices that are in close proximity to you.

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Close proximity meaning 20, 30 meters, maybe 100 feet or so.

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And then so you can kind of relay messages directly to one another without even needing an internet connection.

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And then when any one of these users gets an internet connection, they can upload those signed messages to any relay and then replicate them further.

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So this is a really neat use case, which I think this kind of network topology, I think, is extremely appropriate for Nostar.

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Nostar is perfect for this because the protocol is so simple and it's comprised just out of signed messages.

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And each of these signed messages can exist on its own.

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has meaning. Each individual message

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on its own stands on firm legs, so to speak.

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The more of these messages

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you have, the more sense you can make out of the network.

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You can broadcast them

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to those that are close to you. You can broadcast them to

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relays. You can index them and so forth.

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If they get deleted from any relays, you can repost them to other relays.

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This type of architecture is extremely resilient and hard to stop.

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So I really love this as the foundation for the new internet.

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What we're trying to do here with Nostra, by the way, for those who might not be paying attention on a daily basis, we're trying to fix the internet.

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We're trying to fix all of the broken incentives and the current predicament we're in, which is that basically the majority of the internet is controlled by five corporations.

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So this is about building an internet worth having, and we are well on the way to doing that with Noster.

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So for example, this BitChat application came out of nowhere.

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Nobody was really thinking in these terms prior to Dorsey launching it

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after a weekend of Vibe coding.

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Then, of course, Dorsey launched the iOS version.

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Then Kale very quickly Vibe coded an Android version.

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I think both of these BitChat applications are now in production

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like in full app stores, so App Store and iOS and Play Store on Android.

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They're open source and they continue to be developed.

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And it's a beautiful example of what can be done just by a few guys

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and then adopted by a bunch of people who wish to kind of take control over their communications.

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So that's one great example.

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Another one is the work that Alex Gleason is doing with Shakespeare.

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I think you can access it at shakespeare.diy.

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So basically, it's an AI vibe coding tool that enables anyone to build NOSTER apps, but just prompting in English.

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And what's different about this tool compared to many other vibe coding tools is that it leverages the open NOSTER network.

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So there are a whole bunch of problems that you already have kind of pre-solved for you.

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Like you don't need a backend because you can rely on the public relay infrastructure that already exists on Nostr, which is formidable, by the way.

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I think this doesn't get maybe mentioned enough.

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people compare Nostar to other networks

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and often it's like apples to oranges

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specifically because of the fact that

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anyone can run any part of Nostar infrastructure.

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That's not a very common occurrence in these type of competing networks.

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But not only that it can run, there is so much evidence

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that this is being run.

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Any part of the Noster infrastructure is being stood up

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by a bunch of different people independently

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without any central planning or control.

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So when it comes to relays, last time I looked,

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there were almost 3,000 active relays of just people

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and companies and projects.

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Whoever wants to stand up a relay can.

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So we end up with this public relay infrastructure

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that can be used by anyone to publish content,

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but also to do interesting things like build, you know,

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vibe-coded apps that don't need a backend.

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And then you get Noster Identity and the Web of Trust for free,

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which is all open out there.

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And, of course, you get payments because, like,

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Bitcoin micropayments are kind of blended in with Noster.

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So you have these incredible building blocks,

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all of which are open.

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and then you get this new generation of AI tools

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which are still a little janky but getting better

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where you can vibe code whatever comes to mind

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and kind of plug into this network.

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Try doing any of this with a closed system.

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Try doing any of this with X

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or any of the other closed platforms.

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You just can't.

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Yeah, and we're seeing it particularly in the context of BitChat

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with the Android

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Play Store or Google Play Store. I've seen Cali posting a lot about

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the back and forth he's had with the Play Store. It's hilarious.

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I mean, I'm sure it wasn't hilarious for him as he was going through this.

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But it's just hilariously bad

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how these systems are and how much gatekeeping they're doing

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and how inept they are at this.

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Sorry, I cut you off, Marty. Go ahead.

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No, I was going to say, there's profanity in the name of the app.

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Ah, yes.

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No, but you brought up relays, which is very promising to see

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because I'm having flashbacks to Nostriga in Riga, Latvia last year

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where I vividly recall you on stage with Michael Tidwell.

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I believe the conversation is who will run the relays.

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And so I think you mentioned it.

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There are 3,000 relays being spun up by individuals and companies.

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I guess anchoring back to that conversation on stage in Riga around this time last year, has the sort of network of relays surprised to the upside is where you expected it to be when you were having that conversation?

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Yes, it has so far.

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But to be fair, the conversation was like, how does this scale to kind of global scale?

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So there is definitely the ecosystem that's sprouting around Noster that kind of contains app developers.

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There are probably 200 different apps that are built on Noster.

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The relay infrastructure, the indexers, the media hosting services, all of these things are extremely impressive.

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They are definitely surprising to the upside.

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So when people look at NOSTER and compare it to other networks, usually the only metric that's used for comparison is user numbers.

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And NOSTER user numbers are quite a bit smaller than something like, let's say, Blue Sky.

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Like orders of magnitude we're looking at.

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And by the way, these numbers are not super precise.

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Yes, we do some indexing and we do web of trust analysis to understand which accounts

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on the network are bots, of which there are millions, so we don't want to count them as

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kind of humans.

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But we use web of trust heuristics to figure out active humans.

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And we're probably looking at maybe 70,000, 80,000 users who are active on Oster.

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So it's a very small network in that regard when compared to something like, let's say, Blue Sky, which measures millions of users.

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But these are apples to oranges comparisons because Blue Sky is ran by one company, even though they define their protocol.

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I think it's called at protocol.

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You know, they run the only instance or by far the biggest instance.

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I think there's something called Black Sky 2.

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It's a much, much smaller one.

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But essentially, they control everything that happens in Blue Sky, including your account.

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So basically, if they decide you shouldn't exist, you're gone.

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The vice president experienced this.

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Oh, okay.

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All right.

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Oh, yeah, that happened to JD Vance, right?

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Yeah.

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I think some of these things are hilarious.

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People show up on Blue Sky and post something like, there are only two genders, just as a feeler, and they're gone.

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They get immediately removed.

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It's like, oh, guys, this is not even up for debate on this network.

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And the backstory, of course, is that a lot of people who got upset by Elon's takeover of Twitter moved over to Blue Sky.

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So that kind of their user base And those users are demanding censorship basically from the people who are running Blue Sky That kind of the way they like to operate online

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And the Blue Sky leadership is happy to oblige.

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So that's what we have there.

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So going back to your question, you can't really compare Nostar to Blue Sky in that sense.

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Noster, in my mind, has no competitors.

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If we're looking at a truly self-sovereign network

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where all the users hold the keys to their online existence,

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which cannot be revoked by anyone,

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no single Noster service provider has power over your existence of Noster,

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over your ability to post or view content.

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That's very different from all of the competing networks.

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So we have people who hold their keys,

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and then we have, as I mentioned previously,

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many people who run the infrastructure

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without any central planning or coordination.

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Both of those requirements need to be met, in my mind,

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for something to be a truly decentralized network.

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Otherwise, it's similar to comparing Bitcoin to an altcoin.

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Yeah, you might be holding your private key on Solana,

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but there are a couple of guys that run that network

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and you exist there at their pleasure.

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So it's very similar.

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That kind of comparison is appropriate, I think,

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when it comes to Noster and other competing networks.

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Yeah.

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Matt and I were discussing this in RHR

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I think two weeks ago.

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Not at this point, but it feels like

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when you look at whether it's Blue Sky,

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Farcaster, BASE is a

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what is their social network? Is it BASE?

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Is BASE the social network Zora? I think it's

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still based on Farcaster. I think it's the same network still.

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Yeah, they're all pumping big numbers, but to your point

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when you really get down to brass tacks,

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like what are these networks?

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They're Dino, decentralized, name only.

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And there is a lot of hype around them

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in the sense that Coinbase is really trying to get people to use Zora

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and use USDC to do the equivalent of Zaps on that network.

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But when it comes to true freedom tech, open protocols, I think it's objectively true that Nostar is a different animal than all of them, even though it doesn't have the adoption of Blue Sky.

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I'm not sure what Coinbase's Zora app is at right now, but I think Nostra is sort of existing somewhat in the background, but has this slow, steady, methodical build out that is well underway.

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If you actually pay attention and look at the ecosystem and the growth of the ecosystem and the number of apps and different types of apps, more importantly, I think BitChat is a perfect example of just using relays as sort of like a fallback for when you are not in a 30 meter vicinity of the person you're looking to chat with, that the sort of new open web is being built out methodically.

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It's not getting nearly as much shine as I think it should be getting.

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But I actually like that, too.

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It reminds me of Bitcoin in the early days where you have this intolerant, transient, not transient, but sort of intransient minority that's really dedicated to building this out.

225
00:19:31,958 --> 00:19:34,798
And that's the signal I look for.

226
00:19:34,798 --> 00:19:51,298
It may not seem like Nostar is as big as these other things, but the sort of effort, the energy focused on ensuring that it gets built out is not only still there, but from my observation, getting stronger by the day.

227
00:19:52,898 --> 00:19:59,578
Yeah, I think many of the comparisons to Bitcoin are appropriate, including this one.

228
00:19:59,578 --> 00:20:09,198
um i prior to discovering nostr i tried to design my own protocol that would kind of try

229
00:20:09,198 --> 00:20:15,598
attempt to solve these same issues and my protocol wasn't anywhere near as good as nostr

230
00:20:15,598 --> 00:20:22,758
it was way too complicated um so when i when i discovered nostr um it was like um you know

231
00:20:22,758 --> 00:20:28,058
a revelation i knew right away it was going to work and i was just interested in how good it

232
00:20:28,058 --> 00:20:33,738
could get. But going back to the days when I was trying to come up with my own protocol, I knew

233
00:20:33,738 --> 00:20:41,358
that a protocol like this had to be bootstrapped by Bitcoiners. There was just no other way. There

234
00:20:41,358 --> 00:20:48,398
was no other group out there that has the culture of both holding keys and running nodes.

235
00:20:49,458 --> 00:20:56,358
So we go back to the same point I made earlier. Farcaster, you mentioned, it's interesting.

236
00:20:56,358 --> 00:20:59,458
Firecaster users are holding their keys.

237
00:21:00,538 --> 00:21:02,178
So that's good.

238
00:21:03,198 --> 00:21:04,698
But who runs the infrastructure?

239
00:21:05,058 --> 00:21:08,478
Nobody in the Ethereum land or altcoin land

240
00:21:08,478 --> 00:21:16,278
has the incentives or any interest to run the infrastructure.

241
00:21:16,758 --> 00:21:19,458
So you actually end up like a few big players

242
00:21:19,458 --> 00:21:20,818
running everything for everyone.

243
00:21:20,818 --> 00:21:25,118
And they have pretty much full control over the network.

244
00:21:26,358 --> 00:21:30,198
So Noster is different.

245
00:21:30,798 --> 00:21:31,698
Noster is different.

246
00:21:32,198 --> 00:21:34,078
Without any doubt, you can tell.

247
00:21:35,398 --> 00:21:38,018
The specs are being kind of done in the open.

248
00:21:39,058 --> 00:21:43,978
It's as messy of a process as you would expect it to be at this early stage.

249
00:21:45,258 --> 00:21:47,578
But things are getting stood up.

250
00:21:47,698 --> 00:21:48,698
Things are getting better.

251
00:21:49,778 --> 00:21:55,378
The kind of core app experiences are improving, I think, rapidly.

252
00:21:56,358 --> 00:22:03,218
and whoever, let's say, has multiple touchpoints with Nostr

253
00:22:03,218 --> 00:22:08,038
with maybe six months in between or something like that,

254
00:22:08,698 --> 00:22:11,738
they, I'm sure, are seeing massive improvements.

255
00:22:11,738 --> 00:22:15,378
And that's going to continue and it's going to accelerate.

256
00:22:15,638 --> 00:22:18,238
Just by knowing what's in Primal's roadmap,

257
00:22:19,158 --> 00:22:24,498
things are going to get excellent and very interesting.

258
00:22:24,498 --> 00:22:27,498
but also many other projects.

259
00:22:27,798 --> 00:22:28,918
There are hundreds of them.

260
00:22:30,078 --> 00:22:34,478
So it's amazing to see and I love being a part of this ecosystem.

261
00:22:34,638 --> 00:22:35,838
You alluded to it.

262
00:22:35,998 --> 00:22:38,638
Are we allowed to tease what's on the Primal roadmap to anybody?

263
00:22:39,458 --> 00:22:42,518
I guess I did it to myself, didn't I?

264
00:22:43,458 --> 00:22:48,498
Usually I don't like talking about features that don't exist yet.

265
00:22:48,618 --> 00:22:50,958
I prefer to announce availability.

266
00:22:50,958 --> 00:22:53,858
but at the high level

267
00:22:53,858 --> 00:22:57,498
at Primal we would like to lean

268
00:22:57,498 --> 00:22:59,898
more into long form content

269
00:22:59,898 --> 00:23:03,538
and we've already done that to an extent

270
00:23:03,538 --> 00:23:05,778
with our previous 2.0 release

271
00:23:05,778 --> 00:23:08,098
we've done a pretty elaborate implementation

272
00:23:08,098 --> 00:23:11,618
of long form textual content

273
00:23:11,618 --> 00:23:14,318
so blogs, articles, things like that

274
00:23:14,318 --> 00:23:17,838
are a main tab on Primal

275
00:23:17,838 --> 00:23:20,518
and kind of our first class citizen

276
00:23:20,518 --> 00:23:24,178
both for discovery and kind of consumption and so forth.

277
00:23:25,118 --> 00:23:31,478
And as of recently, we shipped, you know, Primal Studio back in June,

278
00:23:32,098 --> 00:23:34,758
a product that's aimed at content creators.

279
00:23:35,138 --> 00:23:40,018
So we kind of completed that offering for long form content

280
00:23:40,018 --> 00:23:45,498
where you can, you have kind of professional authoring environment

281
00:23:45,498 --> 00:23:47,678
for this type of content.

282
00:23:47,678 --> 00:23:57,638
So we'd like to lean deeper into long-form content with better support for long-form video in Primal 3.0.

283
00:23:57,678 --> 00:24:00,878
So that is going to be kind of a main theme.

284
00:24:01,298 --> 00:24:13,778
We're going to build essentially a YouTube slash Rumble competitor that is fully open and that utilizes, of course, Noster for kind of publishing and messaging.

285
00:24:13,778 --> 00:24:35,498
But when it comes to media hosting, we're using protocols like Blossom, which allow users to post binary content or media content onto multiple kind of media servers to kind of enhance resiliency and censorship resistance and so forth.

286
00:24:35,998 --> 00:24:39,358
So that's the kind of high level theme.

287
00:24:39,358 --> 00:24:44,018
and by the way all of these things already exist on Noster

288
00:24:44,018 --> 00:24:49,938
the specs are there, there are many clients that do a pretty good job already with videos

289
00:24:49,938 --> 00:24:53,778
we're just building a more integrated experience into Primal

290
00:24:53,778 --> 00:24:57,798
so that you can kind of have feeds, reads

291
00:24:57,798 --> 00:25:01,298
and videos as kind of top level tabs

292
00:25:01,298 --> 00:25:05,278
and maybe I'll kind of give you some thinking behind this

293
00:25:05,278 --> 00:25:09,078
so there are many different directions you can go into

294
00:25:09,078 --> 00:25:10,478
with a product like this.

295
00:25:12,058 --> 00:25:16,458
Social media these days is defined by feeds

296
00:25:16,458 --> 00:25:22,998
and some products like Instagram or especially TikTok

297
00:25:22,998 --> 00:25:26,818
went super far into creating these like very addictive

298
00:25:26,818 --> 00:25:28,458
kind of low consciousness,

299
00:25:29,198 --> 00:25:32,558
kind of endless, mindless scrolling type of feeds

300
00:25:32,558 --> 00:25:35,758
because they monetize attention

301
00:25:35,758 --> 00:25:38,358
and that kind of seems to work best there.

302
00:25:39,078 --> 00:25:47,198
So in my mind, there's no sense in competing with them in that kind of segment.

303
00:25:48,178 --> 00:25:49,978
This isn't something we want to build.

304
00:25:51,358 --> 00:25:56,578
And even if we wanted to, we probably couldn't build a better TikTok than TikTok.

305
00:25:56,578 --> 00:26:10,038
Like we couldn't, you know, the types of things these guys, the amount of spying on users and kind of the patterns that these guys are willing to do to enable a product like this, we just are not interested in.

306
00:26:10,958 --> 00:26:17,498
So I think the correct move for Primal is to go firmly in the opposite direction.

307
00:26:17,498 --> 00:26:37,538
So firmly into kind of high signal, nuanced content, you know, long form, high consciousness content that will enable content creators who really wish to provide high signal content to their users.

308
00:26:37,778 --> 00:26:41,298
We want Noster to be the best place for them.

309
00:26:41,658 --> 00:26:43,258
So that's what we're building at Primal.

310
00:26:43,258 --> 00:26:44,118
Yeah.

311
00:26:44,118 --> 00:26:48,418
Yeah. And I've seen the benefits of this.

312
00:26:48,518 --> 00:26:54,618
I mean, obviously Matt and I, we live stream RHR every week to Zap.Stream.

313
00:26:54,618 --> 00:27:00,278
And the amount of zaps we've been getting week in and week out,

314
00:27:00,378 --> 00:27:01,338
I think it's a material amount of money.

315
00:27:01,478 --> 00:27:06,038
I think we're each making like anywhere from like $200 on good weeks,

316
00:27:06,458 --> 00:27:09,098
like $700 a pop, which is crazy.

317
00:27:10,618 --> 00:27:13,478
We've gotten a million sats in one episode before.

318
00:27:13,478 --> 00:27:21,878
And so there is the ability to not only distribute the content, live stream the content on this distributed open protocol,

319
00:27:22,058 --> 00:27:24,278
but you can monetize it in real time.

320
00:27:24,398 --> 00:27:31,718
And I've always, I mean, we've had these discussions, I've always thought the ability to easily monetize the content

321
00:27:31,718 --> 00:27:36,798
by combining Noster with Bitcoin is going to be the killer app that really takes hold someday.

322
00:27:37,078 --> 00:27:38,318
And we're beginning to see it.

323
00:27:38,318 --> 00:27:45,918
And I think the emergence of the vlogs, the vlogs of the last few weeks is evidence of that too.

324
00:27:46,058 --> 00:27:52,298
And that's been like a really interesting sort of social experiment on Noster specifically, like trying to create.

325
00:27:52,298 --> 00:27:56,158
And I really like that HODL sort of started this trend.

326
00:27:56,258 --> 00:27:57,278
Who knows how long it will last.

327
00:27:57,338 --> 00:28:00,158
It will just be a short ephemeral trend.

328
00:28:00,158 --> 00:28:05,818
but I think it's fun nonetheless, but trying to create unique content specific to Nostra

329
00:28:05,818 --> 00:28:11,918
that other people sort of pulls people to the protocol because that content's only living there.

330
00:28:13,358 --> 00:28:14,438
He's killing it, isn't he?

331
00:28:14,658 --> 00:28:14,898
Yeah.

332
00:28:15,478 --> 00:28:20,858
And the Bitcoiners who are not on Nostra are missing out.

333
00:28:21,298 --> 00:28:27,638
In fact, he started something that got bigger and many people are killing it now.

334
00:28:27,818 --> 00:28:28,558
It's interesting.

335
00:28:28,558 --> 00:28:31,698
I don't know how much staying power it has.

336
00:28:31,838 --> 00:28:35,058
Maybe it has a lot, maybe not.

337
00:28:35,578 --> 00:28:41,018
But one thing kind of remains constant on Oster over the past couple of years,

338
00:28:41,138 --> 00:28:43,138
two, three years that I've been participating in,

339
00:28:43,478 --> 00:28:45,278
which is like people are having fun there.

340
00:28:45,518 --> 00:28:49,398
They're having fun with different things and experimenting with a bunch of stuff.

341
00:28:50,618 --> 00:28:53,078
And some of it sticks, some of it doesn't.

342
00:28:53,078 --> 00:29:06,138
But similar to what Dorsey was talking about in Twitter's early days, where he said that all of Twitter's features were kind of created by the users.

343
00:29:06,138 --> 00:29:12,498
hashtag or at mentions and like a bunch of other things

344
00:29:12,498 --> 00:29:18,858
were just, you know, the product people observing

345
00:29:18,858 --> 00:29:22,058
how the users are using their product and then reacting

346
00:29:22,058 --> 00:29:25,418
and kind of tweaking it to make it easier to do the things

347
00:29:25,418 --> 00:29:27,138
that the users are already trying to do.

348
00:29:27,138 --> 00:29:30,218
So there's so much of that going on in Noster.

349
00:29:30,698 --> 00:29:35,938
So the Noster user base is kind of, we can say,

350
00:29:35,938 --> 00:29:39,018
small in kind of global terms, but very formidable

351
00:29:39,018 --> 00:29:44,158
in terms of how enthusiastic

352
00:29:44,158 --> 00:29:47,278
the users are, in terms of how technically competent

353
00:29:47,278 --> 00:29:51,138
many of them are. It's very interesting to build for Nostar because

354
00:29:51,138 --> 00:29:54,538
many Nostar users are actually developers.

355
00:29:55,538 --> 00:29:59,198
So you get this very competent feedback constantly

356
00:29:59,198 --> 00:30:03,118
that helps you improve the product and so forth.

357
00:30:03,118 --> 00:30:14,298
And I was kind of looking at it and comparing it to, let's say, Bitcoin Twitter, just kind of to ballpark things to try to understand, you know, the relative sizes of these communities.

358
00:30:14,798 --> 00:30:18,158
And I would say it's formidable.

359
00:30:18,558 --> 00:30:28,558
So for order of magnitude, kind of some of the best estimates I could get to for Bitcoin Twitter is about 150,000 active users.

360
00:30:30,218 --> 00:30:32,778
And Nostra has about half of that probably.

361
00:30:33,118 --> 00:30:36,578
terms of active users, we might be undercounting Noster users too.

362
00:30:37,038 --> 00:30:41,078
It could be that some new users who just joined

363
00:30:41,078 --> 00:30:45,178
didn't quite make it fully into the web of trust in terms of being followed

364
00:30:45,178 --> 00:30:49,158
by other accounts and so forth. So we might be undercutting it, but let's say it's

365
00:30:49,158 --> 00:31:09,036
half And that means if you a Bitcoin content creator and you not a Noster well you missing out on probably half of the potential audience that you could have And on top of that you get kind of new people that are getting into Noster who are not Bitcoiners

366
00:31:09,096 --> 00:31:13,516
who are getting into Bitcoin kind of just because they end up hanging out with a bunch

367
00:31:13,516 --> 00:31:15,676
of Bitcoiners in Noster and kind of get into it.

368
00:31:15,736 --> 00:31:16,976
We have many such cases.

369
00:31:17,696 --> 00:31:19,536
So there's that as well.

370
00:31:19,536 --> 00:31:25,056
and I don't know if the Bitcoin Twitter group is growing

371
00:31:25,056 --> 00:31:29,416
or if it's been kind of similar size over the years

372
00:31:29,416 --> 00:31:33,296
but I think it's like I said interesting to compare these two groups

373
00:31:33,296 --> 00:31:35,476
and Nostra is already formidable

374
00:31:35,476 --> 00:31:39,796
and only one of those groups is holding the keys to their speech

375
00:31:39,796 --> 00:31:41,676
yeah

376
00:31:41,676 --> 00:31:45,336
it's fascinating

377
00:31:45,336 --> 00:31:50,576
And that's like the big question going back to when we started the conversation on.

378
00:31:50,696 --> 00:32:04,396
And I wonder if the sort of Orwellian pressures that are beginning to increase, particularly in Europe, UK specifically, do they drive people to Noster?

379
00:32:04,656 --> 00:32:06,656
And that's why I wanted to catch up.

380
00:32:06,776 --> 00:32:10,916
And this was like a month ago when the age verification laws, but things seem to be escalating.

381
00:32:10,916 --> 00:32:29,256
There was a woman, the commissioner of children in England was on the BBC two days ago, vehemently expressing her desire to put age verification on VPNs, which would render VPN services moot in the first place.

382
00:32:29,256 --> 00:32:36,856
And I was telling you, the second biggest demo that we have here at TFTC beyond the United States is the UK.

383
00:32:37,296 --> 00:32:48,276
And I'm curious if you've seen any indication that people are experiencing these Orwellian pressures and falling back to open protocols like Noster.

384
00:32:49,276 --> 00:32:54,336
So we've experienced some growth on Noster in the past few weeks.

385
00:32:54,636 --> 00:32:58,716
And we've been trying to kind of figure out what to attribute this to.

386
00:32:59,256 --> 00:33:05,896
Within the Primal team, we're seeing kind of significantly higher user numbers.

387
00:33:07,036 --> 00:33:13,076
And then we don't do any tracking, so we don't really know where these people are coming from.

388
00:33:13,076 --> 00:33:22,416
But we're trying to decipher if it's all American HODL bringing new users through his V-logs.

389
00:33:22,416 --> 00:33:29,196
Or, in fact, this phenomenon started happening prior to him starting vlogging.

390
00:33:29,496 --> 00:33:31,816
So probably that's not the answer.

391
00:33:31,936 --> 00:33:33,276
It could be a combination of things.

392
00:33:33,916 --> 00:33:45,276
But I think it's a factor that, you know, many people who are aware of where these types of things are leading to in these countries,

393
00:33:45,276 --> 00:33:51,376
or outside of these countries too, are starting to look at alternatives.

394
00:33:51,376 --> 00:34:03,556
And those who have done enough research and critical thinking might be realizing that NOSTER is the best alternative there.

395
00:34:03,876 --> 00:34:07,536
So, yeah, we are seeing increased user numbers.

396
00:34:08,076 --> 00:34:19,016
And probably these new policies in UK, Europe, I think Australia, too, have something to do with it.

397
00:34:19,736 --> 00:34:20,296
Yeah.

398
00:34:21,376 --> 00:34:25,436
I would hope that people recognize that these tools are there.

399
00:34:25,436 --> 00:34:26,456
Because it is crazy.

400
00:34:26,616 --> 00:34:31,436
You can't voice your displeasure in these countries

401
00:34:31,436 --> 00:34:34,896
without being put on a list and having the police come knock on your door.

402
00:34:35,336 --> 00:34:39,656
Which is probably good building on that point

403
00:34:39,656 --> 00:34:43,216
in terms of onboarding the NOSTA for people in these countries.

404
00:34:44,036 --> 00:34:45,716
Again, you have a private public key pair

405
00:34:45,716 --> 00:34:51,316
and you can attach some human readable name to your profile.

406
00:34:51,376 --> 00:34:56,156
And so best practice is probably don't put your real name, spin up a name.

407
00:34:57,876 --> 00:35:05,456
Yeah, I mean, the process of onboarding itself is the first step.

408
00:35:05,856 --> 00:35:13,256
Right away, you can see the difference between the centralized legacy platforms and open protocols.

409
00:35:13,256 --> 00:35:22,716
When you create an account on X, let's say, you're given this account by this corporation.

410
00:35:23,356 --> 00:35:29,856
This is something that they give to you and something that they can take away from you at any point.

411
00:35:30,616 --> 00:35:38,936
In contrast, when you're on an open protocol like Noster, you claim your key pair.

412
00:35:38,936 --> 00:35:45,916
You take this massive number out of the universe, and that's your private key.

413
00:35:46,396 --> 00:35:55,096
So you've claimed some territory in this like massively large namespace of numbers.

414
00:35:55,496 --> 00:35:59,836
And then you've claimed something, and this is yours, and then you defend it.

415
00:36:01,136 --> 00:36:04,596
What a stark contrast between these two.

416
00:36:04,896 --> 00:36:07,016
And then everything is downstream from there.

417
00:36:07,016 --> 00:36:32,416
So I think that holding our keys and existing and operating with these open protocols is our only chance to assert and reclaim our sovereignty, both in terms of money and transactions and wealth, as well as speech and online communication and publishing.

418
00:36:33,036 --> 00:36:34,536
There's just no other way.

419
00:36:34,536 --> 00:36:42,176
we need to all step up and be sovereign online well those of us who are interested in that

420
00:36:42,176 --> 00:36:48,956
seems to be like a small minority currently but that's fine potentially i think i'm trying to

421
00:36:48,956 --> 00:36:55,476
quantify these numbers too it's like how big is the kind of world population who's even interested

422
00:36:55,476 --> 00:37:01,456
in this and it's far from a majority currently maybe the pain is not big enough for most people

423
00:37:01,456 --> 00:37:03,556
to be interested in this.

424
00:37:04,476 --> 00:37:10,136
But I think the silver lining of things like COVID,

425
00:37:10,616 --> 00:37:13,576
like what we went through during the few years of COVID,

426
00:37:14,236 --> 00:37:15,876
is that many people woke up.

427
00:37:16,956 --> 00:37:19,416
And if, let's say, prior to this,

428
00:37:19,496 --> 00:37:23,396
maybe 1% of the population was interested in these types of topics

429
00:37:23,396 --> 00:37:25,656
and asserting their sovereignty and so forth,

430
00:37:26,396 --> 00:37:27,916
now we have multiples of that.

431
00:37:27,996 --> 00:37:29,856
Maybe we have 5% of people.

432
00:37:30,316 --> 00:37:32,616
So still a minority, but it's five times more.

433
00:37:33,196 --> 00:37:36,256
And from that standpoint, things are moving in the right direction.

434
00:37:36,256 --> 00:37:44,196
And the crazier these policies get, the more people we're going to have who care about this.

435
00:37:44,656 --> 00:37:52,056
So all we need to do is to make sure that the tools exist for them to use when they're ready to,

436
00:37:52,716 --> 00:37:56,756
and that the infrastructure is robust, et cetera, et cetera.

437
00:37:56,756 --> 00:38:10,476
So I kind of tend to take the optimistic point of view behind all of this, even though, you know, you see some of these things go down and it's like, you could feel desperate, you know, like what's happening in the UK.

438
00:38:10,476 --> 00:38:11,216
That's wild.

439
00:38:11,536 --> 00:38:15,616
And I'm kind of shocked that people don't push back harder.

440
00:38:15,936 --> 00:38:21,676
But then you, you know, look back at COVID and go like, oh, yeah, people, people take a lot.

441
00:38:23,116 --> 00:38:23,596
Yeah.

442
00:38:25,196 --> 00:38:25,896
People do.

443
00:38:25,896 --> 00:38:27,276
It's shocking.

444
00:38:29,856 --> 00:38:30,736
And that's what I wonder.

445
00:38:30,936 --> 00:38:35,776
Does the quality of life have to become so degraded

446
00:38:35,776 --> 00:38:39,216
that you're forced to push back and find these tools?

447
00:38:39,776 --> 00:38:42,116
But we don't have to belabor the negative.

448
00:38:42,656 --> 00:38:47,576
Let's talk about potentially something more positive and negative.

449
00:38:47,576 --> 00:38:50,676
I think this is probably one of the sharpest double-edged swords

450
00:38:50,676 --> 00:38:53,316
that exist in the world today, which is AI,

451
00:38:53,316 --> 00:38:58,616
in the intersection of AI and Bitcoin, AI and Nostra,

452
00:38:58,836 --> 00:39:00,136
different ways to leverage it.

453
00:39:00,216 --> 00:39:02,176
We've been leaning into AI-generated video

454
00:39:02,176 --> 00:39:05,596
to get the Bitcoin message out there

455
00:39:05,596 --> 00:39:07,116
or help people understand the problems

456
00:39:07,116 --> 00:39:10,336
that Bitcoin is attempting to solve.

457
00:39:11,716 --> 00:39:14,596
And then there's many other ways we use AI

458
00:39:14,596 --> 00:39:17,576
on the back end to automate processes.

459
00:39:18,656 --> 00:39:22,196
As it pertains to AI, I think there's three things

460
00:39:22,196 --> 00:39:26,776
I'm interested to hear from you, like how at Primal are you guys leveraging it like to build the business?

461
00:39:26,936 --> 00:39:38,736
I turn these off to what have you seen in terms of unique AI applications in the Nostra landscape?

462
00:39:39,356 --> 00:39:52,176
And then three, like what are your thoughts on like the cool use cases of AI to particularly from a marketing propaganda perspective that people should be leaning into to draw people?

463
00:39:52,196 --> 00:39:54,436
to Nostra and other open protocols.

464
00:39:56,256 --> 00:39:58,456
Yeah, I think those AI videos

465
00:39:58,456 --> 00:40:00,176
are probably a good example

466
00:40:00,176 --> 00:40:03,596
of how quickly things are evolving there

467
00:40:03,596 --> 00:40:05,656
and how quickly these tools are getting better.

468
00:40:06,376 --> 00:40:07,496
Like a few months ago,

469
00:40:07,496 --> 00:40:09,456
you'd see those videos and they were just terrible.

470
00:40:10,916 --> 00:40:15,356
And now we're at the point where they're not terrible.

471
00:40:15,596 --> 00:40:17,996
They're actually pretty reasonable,

472
00:40:17,996 --> 00:40:20,696
but you can tell it's AI.

473
00:40:22,196 --> 00:40:28,656
And probably won't be long before they get much better, even from here.

474
00:40:30,716 --> 00:40:42,456
So I think when it comes to AI and how it relates to open networks like Noster,

475
00:40:42,456 --> 00:40:51,876
I think there's something very interesting at the intersection of open source AI models and open data.

476
00:40:52,196 --> 00:40:58,436
and open social graphs and open user directories and things like that.

477
00:40:59,136 --> 00:41:04,176
I think it's leveling the playing field quite a bit.

478
00:41:04,276 --> 00:41:05,636
It has the potential to do that.

479
00:41:06,596 --> 00:41:10,596
So, of course, currently only the biggest companies have the resources

480
00:41:10,596 --> 00:41:13,476
to train new AI models.

481
00:41:13,476 --> 00:41:17,296
And even though they all LARP about openness,

482
00:41:17,296 --> 00:41:23,676
They kind of keep the most powerful models closed and kind of in control.

483
00:41:24,696 --> 00:41:26,256
So that's an interesting dynamic.

484
00:41:28,136 --> 00:41:44,876
And then, you know, we see that these models coming out from China, these guys are kind of trying to catch up and they have different approaches because they don't have access to that much kind of compute power.

485
00:41:44,876 --> 00:41:49,676
because in theory, at least they can get access to the same GPUs,

486
00:41:50,016 --> 00:41:54,496
but they have unlimited electricity almost.

487
00:41:55,236 --> 00:42:01,296
And then they're kind of forced to optimize their algorithms a little bit better.

488
00:42:01,696 --> 00:42:05,456
So we had this situation with DeepSeek a few months ago,

489
00:42:05,676 --> 00:42:09,776
which was as good as the best closed models in the West.

490
00:42:09,776 --> 00:42:15,996
for a week or two, you kind of have to take these snapshots in time

491
00:42:15,996 --> 00:42:18,616
and kind of assess who is where,

492
00:42:18,836 --> 00:42:21,616
and these things move almost on a weekly basis.

493
00:42:23,916 --> 00:42:26,916
So you asked about Primal.

494
00:42:28,056 --> 00:42:32,836
So we do what you would expect a company like Primal to do.

495
00:42:32,836 --> 00:42:38,836
So we use, of course, AI tools for some of our internal kind of coding efforts

496
00:42:38,836 --> 00:42:44,616
efforts and, you know, QA and testing and stuff like that, as you would expect.

497
00:42:44,816 --> 00:42:47,576
We're not really vibe coding our products.

498
00:42:48,416 --> 00:42:56,236
We're doing it the old fashioned way by hand, but there's a lot of kind of kind of AI tools

499
00:42:56,236 --> 00:43:03,436
that you can use in the process to make you more kind of productive as a developer.

500
00:43:03,436 --> 00:43:04,736
So there is that.

501
00:43:04,736 --> 00:43:12,696
We're looking at automating some of our business processes using AI tools, and we're kind of at the beginning of that.

502
00:43:13,056 --> 00:43:14,916
We're still a very small company.

503
00:43:15,076 --> 00:43:15,736
We're eight people.

504
00:43:17,036 --> 00:43:24,556
And I think what's interesting, standing up a new company like this at this particular moment in time,

505
00:43:24,916 --> 00:43:32,916
I think these types of tools will enable a company like Primal and many other companies.

506
00:43:32,916 --> 00:43:39,636
In Noster alone, there's probably half a dozen companies of our size or bigger.

507
00:43:40,816 --> 00:43:56,156
So these types of tools will enable companies of our size, very tiny companies, to serve millions of users just because we can leverage our kind of power using the tools.

508
00:43:56,496 --> 00:43:58,276
So that's exciting, I think.

509
00:43:58,276 --> 00:44:03,096
and then of course we need to productize

510
00:44:03,096 --> 00:44:07,196
some of this and offer capabilities

511
00:44:07,196 --> 00:44:10,916
to our users so for example something like

512
00:44:10,916 --> 00:44:14,316
Grok is extremely powerful

513
00:44:14,316 --> 00:44:19,056
on X that's probably the best feature on X

514
00:44:19,056 --> 00:44:23,176
currently I think it would be great to have something

515
00:44:23,176 --> 00:44:26,916
like this on an open network based on an open

516
00:44:26,916 --> 00:44:28,136
source model.

517
00:44:29,416 --> 00:44:30,896
So this is something that we

518
00:44:30,896 --> 00:44:32,556
will be looking at

519
00:44:32,556 --> 00:44:34,116
down the line at some point

520
00:44:34,116 --> 00:44:36,856
after we ship 3.0

521
00:44:36,856 --> 00:44:38,036
with video

522
00:44:38,036 --> 00:44:41,316
capabilities and stuff like that.

523
00:44:42,896 --> 00:44:43,796
So yeah,

524
00:44:44,176 --> 00:44:47,216
that's kind of the range of

525
00:44:47,216 --> 00:44:49,256
AI

526
00:44:49,256 --> 00:44:51,136
thinking that we're

527
00:44:51,136 --> 00:44:54,496
leveraging that we're doing at the moment.

528
00:44:55,196 --> 00:44:56,296
Grok, is this true?

529
00:44:56,916 --> 00:44:58,896
Maybe the NOSTA version should be Korg.

530
00:44:59,116 --> 00:45:00,356
Korg, is this true?

531
00:45:03,716 --> 00:45:06,076
It is fascinating.

532
00:45:06,076 --> 00:45:11,656
It's really cool to see, to your point of the individual users having agency,

533
00:45:12,196 --> 00:45:18,656
not only via private-public key pairs and just joining a protocol like NOSTA

534
00:45:18,656 --> 00:45:23,336
and having that freedom, you see users wanting to give back.

535
00:45:23,336 --> 00:45:27,596
and I saw one of a Primal user make a commercial for Primal

536
00:45:27,596 --> 00:45:30,036
using these AI-generated videos,

537
00:45:30,696 --> 00:45:34,656
the one with the zoo freeing the animals from the cages.

538
00:45:34,796 --> 00:45:35,656
That was really well done.

539
00:45:36,316 --> 00:45:38,076
That was incredible.

540
00:45:39,076 --> 00:45:43,276
Like, I woke up one morning and opened Primal,

541
00:45:43,476 --> 00:45:48,156
and I saw that, and I was like, man, like, how amazing.

542
00:45:48,696 --> 00:45:51,436
You know, our users are creating this type of content,

543
00:45:51,436 --> 00:45:53,436
And the message was super crisp.

544
00:45:55,196 --> 00:46:08,396
I recommend everyone to go check it out because it sort of kind of leaned into this whole idea of, oh, we're the most connected we've ever been.

545
00:46:08,996 --> 00:46:11,196
But it's also superficial.

546
00:46:11,516 --> 00:46:15,676
And the level of actual human connection is probably at an all-time low.

547
00:46:15,676 --> 00:46:35,454
Like when you look at the rates of you know young people getting married and having kids and stuff like that like these things are not looking great So anyway I butchering the message here Everyone should check out this video that was created by one of our users

548
00:46:35,674 --> 00:46:39,834
We've reposted it on the Primal account and also my own.

549
00:46:41,474 --> 00:46:48,354
It's extremely rewarding, you know, because as you know, we are constantly in touch, Marty.

550
00:46:49,874 --> 00:46:51,234
It's a lot of hard work.

551
00:46:51,234 --> 00:47:04,574
We work night and day to build these tools so they are at the level of usability that users are used to.

552
00:47:05,314 --> 00:47:13,154
And the bar for usability is being set by these multi-billion dollar companies who've been at it for 10 years plus.

553
00:47:13,154 --> 00:47:21,074
And they're dealing with just like a closed centralized system, which is easier to develop against.

554
00:47:21,234 --> 00:47:40,234
In contrast, we have a small group of people, mind you, in a bigger community, which is all open sourced, trying to catch up in terms of feature sets and UX and stuff like that, performance.

555
00:47:40,234 --> 00:48:00,214
So we work day and night and it's nice, like occasionally we get these incredibly rewarding moments when, you know, when we observe people use our products and also appreciate our products enough to put in the work to create these types of this type of content.

556
00:48:00,354 --> 00:48:01,474
So that was amazing to see.

557
00:48:01,474 --> 00:48:01,834
Yeah.

558
00:48:02,874 --> 00:48:06,294
And that's what you want to see, too.

559
00:48:06,454 --> 00:48:08,574
Like, that's a signal like, all right, we're on the right path.

560
00:48:08,794 --> 00:48:09,034
People.

561
00:48:09,314 --> 00:48:09,494
Yeah.

562
00:48:10,234 --> 00:48:14,154
feel so passionate about the product, the protocol,

563
00:48:14,334 --> 00:48:16,934
that they're out there spending their time, money, and effort

564
00:48:16,934 --> 00:48:20,394
to make sure that they can help push it along,

565
00:48:20,754 --> 00:48:23,294
which is going back to your point about the early days of Twitter.

566
00:48:23,514 --> 00:48:24,954
That's sort of what you want to see.

567
00:48:26,174 --> 00:48:27,014
It's incredible.

568
00:48:27,374 --> 00:48:30,014
And Sam Altman, of all people,

569
00:48:30,014 --> 00:48:33,434
made a really good point years ago in some presentation.

570
00:48:35,274 --> 00:48:39,054
So even though we probably don't see eye-to-eye

571
00:48:39,054 --> 00:48:44,074
in just about anything, this point made sense to me.

572
00:48:44,074 --> 00:48:50,214
And I remember it frequently, which is he was trying to,

573
00:48:50,294 --> 00:48:56,274
I forgot it was some sort of presentation where probably to entrepreneurs

574
00:48:56,274 --> 00:49:02,634
or investors, I forgot, but it was about how to spot fads,

575
00:49:03,234 --> 00:49:05,814
like in terms of like big waves that are coming in,

576
00:49:05,814 --> 00:49:09,034
how to distinguish between something that's going to be a fad,

577
00:49:09,534 --> 00:49:13,434
you know, it's going to taper off versus something that's going to really take off.

578
00:49:13,434 --> 00:49:17,414
Like in the early days, you as, let's say, an entrepreneur,

579
00:49:17,994 --> 00:49:23,254
you're investing everything, all your time, probably wealth and so forth,

580
00:49:23,334 --> 00:49:24,734
to go in a certain direction.

581
00:49:25,354 --> 00:49:31,414
Or as an investor, you're kind of putting your LPs, capital on the line and so forth.

582
00:49:31,414 --> 00:49:37,714
So how can you tell if, of course, you need to do it early for this to make sense.

583
00:49:37,934 --> 00:49:38,734
So you're early.

584
00:49:38,894 --> 00:49:44,634
So how can you tell if something is going to be big or if it's going to taper off to nothing?

585
00:49:45,154 --> 00:49:54,494
And he said a very good indicator is how passionate the early adopters are.

586
00:49:54,494 --> 00:50:04,794
that's that's the kind of that's what separates uh you know the iphone from vr sets vr sets you

587
00:50:04,794 --> 00:50:09,494
know even though quite a few got sold but they're all kind of sitting on a shelf somewhere collecting

588
00:50:09,494 --> 00:50:20,954
dust um and uh there just wasn't the the signal was there from the early days like the the uh you

589
00:50:20,954 --> 00:50:23,634
The early adopters, even though they bought the sets,

590
00:50:23,714 --> 00:50:25,254
were not that excited about them.

591
00:50:25,634 --> 00:50:29,654
Whereas when the iPhone got released,

592
00:50:29,814 --> 00:50:32,294
everybody told all their friends

593
00:50:32,294 --> 00:50:35,954
and was flexing their new device and so forth.

594
00:50:36,714 --> 00:50:39,054
So I think that's correct.

595
00:50:40,734 --> 00:50:42,594
That's the correct assessment.

596
00:50:42,594 --> 00:50:46,334
And then if you look at Nostra's user base,

597
00:50:46,334 --> 00:50:51,234
well, we can only be super bullish about where this is going.

598
00:50:51,694 --> 00:50:53,774
Yeah, a lot of power users.

599
00:50:54,954 --> 00:50:57,874
And again, going back to the point I made earlier of

600
00:50:57,874 --> 00:51:00,574
if you're not paying attention, you probably should be

601
00:51:00,574 --> 00:51:03,674
because if you observe over time

602
00:51:03,674 --> 00:51:07,114
the amount of effort being put into building out the protocol

603
00:51:07,114 --> 00:51:09,774
building out apps like Primal

604
00:51:09,774 --> 00:51:16,174
but other non-social media related apps as well

605
00:51:16,174 --> 00:51:25,854
It's growing and it's becoming more robust in terms of the optionality of different ways you can interact with the protocol.

606
00:51:26,414 --> 00:51:37,294
And one thing, again, it's already saying, I think the first real market is the market for attention on Noster and monetize via Zaps.

607
00:51:37,294 --> 00:51:44,714
But it's one thing that makes a ton of sense to me is like Noster is this open protocol to create marketplaces.

608
00:51:45,194 --> 00:51:50,194
The killer marketplace right now is posting content and getting zapped for it.

609
00:51:50,254 --> 00:51:58,674
But you're beginning to see the emergence of data vending machines to buy AI compute and still early days there.

610
00:51:58,674 --> 00:52:02,054
but even physical marketplaces, people selling physical goods,

611
00:52:02,894 --> 00:52:08,934
using Noster and the MPUB sort of Web of Trust to facilitate trade.

612
00:52:09,114 --> 00:52:13,094
I'm just curious to hear from you.

613
00:52:13,234 --> 00:52:16,454
What is your perspective on Noster as a marketplace

614
00:52:16,454 --> 00:52:18,754
and what you're seeing in terms of that maturing?

615
00:52:20,674 --> 00:52:24,454
So just to back up a little bit, you mentioned AI, Noster, and Bitcoin.

616
00:52:24,454 --> 00:52:28,594
The intersection of those three things is extremely exciting.

617
00:52:28,674 --> 00:52:38,034
Right. Because AI agents need some self-sovereign money to, you know, do their work.

618
00:52:38,574 --> 00:52:48,894
And, you know, especially the more sophisticated they get, the less likely is that they'll accept Solana or USD.

619
00:52:48,894 --> 00:52:57,534
Right. So and then the ability to interface with other systems in an open matter and kind of plug into.

620
00:52:58,674 --> 00:53:05,454
open networks without requiring access to proprietary APIs that can be switched off.

621
00:53:05,814 --> 00:53:06,334
Right.

622
00:53:06,414 --> 00:53:10,534
You have to be bullish about the intersection of those three technologies.

623
00:53:11,574 --> 00:53:18,454
And as far as marketplaces are concerned, yeah, there are already marketplaces on Oster.

624
00:53:18,454 --> 00:53:28,174
and the ability to utilize this open social graph

625
00:53:28,174 --> 00:53:32,154
and open web of trust as it grows

626
00:53:32,154 --> 00:53:37,374
to create more powerful marketplaces is there.

627
00:53:37,374 --> 00:53:43,814
For example, let's take Amazon product reviews.

628
00:53:43,814 --> 00:53:45,534
right

629
00:53:45,534 --> 00:53:49,414
if

630
00:53:49,414 --> 00:53:51,394
currently they're built

631
00:53:51,394 --> 00:53:53,694
in a closed silo by Amazon

632
00:53:53,694 --> 00:53:55,674
and that's it basically

633
00:53:55,674 --> 00:53:57,394
you go and look at a product

634
00:53:57,394 --> 00:53:59,754
and they sort those reviews

635
00:53:59,754 --> 00:54:01,794
in a couple different ways

636
00:54:01,794 --> 00:54:02,614
but basically

637
00:54:02,614 --> 00:54:05,614
you're extremely unlikely

638
00:54:05,614 --> 00:54:07,774
to see anyone there among the reviewers

639
00:54:07,774 --> 00:54:08,434
who you know

640
00:54:08,434 --> 00:54:11,374
how amazing would it be if you were to

641
00:54:11,374 --> 00:54:13,394
look at a product or

642
00:54:13,394 --> 00:54:20,154
travel destination or anything else that where user input and user reviews are kind of

643
00:54:20,734 --> 00:54:23,474
relevant and important in your decision making.

644
00:54:24,134 --> 00:54:30,754
And to have these things sorted by your web of trust, by the people that you are connected

645
00:54:30,754 --> 00:54:38,614
to in some ways, and so that you can see how they are valuing a certain product or service.

646
00:54:38,614 --> 00:54:50,854
So this is already being built on Noster and you can tell how when the internet gets open again because of Noster, how glorious this is going to be.

647
00:54:50,854 --> 00:55:00,054
And guys like Alex Svetsky with his Atlantis project are doing something like this.

648
00:55:00,074 --> 00:55:08,914
This is a very interesting project on Noster that people should check out that kind of showcases the versatility of the protocol.

649
00:55:09,354 --> 00:55:13,674
It's not just Twitter clones that are being built on Noster.

650
00:55:13,934 --> 00:55:15,754
You can literally build anything.

651
00:55:15,754 --> 00:55:22,814
And the killer feature of Noster isn't necessarily censorship resistance.

652
00:55:23,034 --> 00:55:24,974
This is kind of what people talk about a lot.

653
00:55:25,594 --> 00:55:27,454
I think the killer feature is openness.

654
00:55:28,454 --> 00:55:42,214
The fact that all of this data is open and can be combined in a number of different ways to build new experiences and new product categories that are not even possible.

655
00:55:42,214 --> 00:55:46,634
currently when you deal with a bunch of closed silos.

656
00:55:47,834 --> 00:55:47,954
Yeah.

657
00:55:48,854 --> 00:55:51,094
I think that's a very good point.

658
00:55:52,274 --> 00:55:56,374
And it's not to say that censorship resistance doesn't exist

659
00:55:56,374 --> 00:55:58,674
and it's not a killer app, but I think the openness,

660
00:55:59,274 --> 00:56:03,074
the flexibility with which that gives end users

661
00:56:03,074 --> 00:56:08,034
and probably more importantly builders is extremely powerful.

662
00:56:09,254 --> 00:56:09,374
Yeah.

663
00:56:09,374 --> 00:56:13,814
sovereignty for users, builders, and creators

664
00:56:13,814 --> 00:56:16,354
is a big deal. I agree.

665
00:56:17,414 --> 00:56:21,294
I feel like we do this every time you come on, but I think

666
00:56:21,294 --> 00:56:26,454
in terms of forward-looking guidance, we're going to adopt some Fed

667
00:56:26,454 --> 00:56:28,374
speak here, forward guidance.

668
00:56:29,314 --> 00:56:30,794
Dog plot coming up.

669
00:56:32,494 --> 00:56:36,114
What do you see happening

670
00:56:36,114 --> 00:56:39,254
primal over the next year, Noster

671
00:56:39,254 --> 00:56:43,494
generally over the next year, catalyst for more people

672
00:56:43,494 --> 00:56:47,254
waking up to this, is it possible to tell or do you even worry about it

673
00:56:47,254 --> 00:56:51,134
as it just heads down, take it day by day, brick by brick?

674
00:56:52,494 --> 00:56:55,574
Yeah, it's very hard to predict the future here

675
00:56:55,574 --> 00:56:59,534
unless you're building it, of course. So I have some

676
00:56:59,534 --> 00:57:02,934
visibility in what's in primal's roadmap, of course. But

677
00:57:02,934 --> 00:57:16,534
If you asked me three months ago to predict the most exciting apps on Noster, I would have not said BitChat and Shakespeare.

678
00:57:17,134 --> 00:57:19,414
I would have said something different.

679
00:57:19,414 --> 00:57:37,354
So when you have such an open network with so many creative people participating and building without permission, the activity of trying to predict what they're going to build is frivolous, basically.

680
00:57:37,494 --> 00:57:38,614
You're not going to make it.

681
00:57:38,814 --> 00:57:45,214
I think it's still useful in some ways to kind of brainstorm and try to imagine things.

682
00:57:45,214 --> 00:57:54,974
But the takeaway here is that we're going to get surprised by some apps that nobody saw coming that are just taking off.

683
00:57:55,214 --> 00:58:02,234
And that's so amazing to see because every such app is adding more gravity to the network.

684
00:58:02,234 --> 00:58:04,714
It's bringing in new users potentially.

685
00:58:05,574 --> 00:58:13,634
And then those users might kind of show up for BitChat, but stay for other things, for V-logs.

686
00:58:13,634 --> 00:58:17,814
and as for primal

687
00:58:17,814 --> 00:58:21,254
yeah so like I said this

688
00:58:21,254 --> 00:58:26,014
long form high signal content is something

689
00:58:26,014 --> 00:58:29,114
that we really want to lean into as hard as possible

690
00:58:29,114 --> 00:58:33,574
so we want to create the best possible user experiences

691
00:58:33,574 --> 00:58:37,894
for finding and consuming high signal long form

692
00:58:37,894 --> 00:58:41,854
content this includes text and video and potentially sound

693
00:58:41,854 --> 00:58:43,014
down the road and so forth.

694
00:58:43,794 --> 00:58:50,614
We also want to build great tools for content creators

695
00:58:50,614 --> 00:58:55,314
to be able to post and manage this type of content on Oster

696
00:58:55,314 --> 00:58:58,074
in a way that kind of feels familiar

697
00:58:58,074 --> 00:59:01,674
from kind of the more centralized legacy platforms.

698
00:59:01,674 --> 00:59:05,394
So basically to bring the long form content UX

699
00:59:05,394 --> 00:59:11,734
for both users and creators in kind of highly polished shape

700
00:59:11,734 --> 00:59:13,394
is our goal.

701
00:59:14,234 --> 00:59:17,734
And then to lean even deeper into it.

702
00:59:17,814 --> 00:59:20,334
So basically what I'd love to see is

703
00:59:20,334 --> 00:59:22,674
I'd love Noster to become the best place

704
00:59:22,674 --> 00:59:24,554
for content creators who wish to create

705
00:59:24,554 --> 00:59:26,314
high signal content for their users.

706
00:59:27,134 --> 00:59:30,334
And part of it is going to be, of course,

707
00:59:30,394 --> 00:59:32,454
in addition to Zaps, the micropayments

708
00:59:32,454 --> 00:59:37,354
that you mentioned that people can do

709
00:59:37,354 --> 00:59:40,374
on an ad hoc basis for a particular piece of content.

710
00:59:40,374 --> 01:00:08,254
In addition to that, we want to have paid subscriptions for content creators so that creators can create one or more paid tiers and create kind of simple rules regarding how their content is distributed so that they can better monetize the work that they do directly with their audience.

711
01:00:08,254 --> 01:00:16,474
so those are kind of implementing all of the above in a way that's polished and just works

712
01:00:16,474 --> 01:00:26,274
but also open so you know when we create when we say paid tiers these are not primal you know paid

713
01:00:26,274 --> 01:00:34,374
tiers they're nostre open paid tiers that should work in any other nostre client so the specs for

714
01:00:34,374 --> 01:00:40,134
this already exists. We need to just lean in and kind of implement them correctly. So implementing

715
01:00:40,134 --> 01:00:44,994
all of the above is quite a bit of work. So we have our hands full with Primal, just kind of

716
01:00:44,994 --> 01:00:54,634
doing these relatively obvious things. But that's kind of been the MO at Primal where we, you know,

717
01:00:54,634 --> 01:01:00,774
we try to make basic things work well. That's if at the high level, that's what we do with Primal.

718
01:01:00,774 --> 01:01:25,034
Yeah. No, and I, the fountain guys, they've, they've released paid tiers for the podcast and we've implemented that here at TFTC and at RHR. So if you're listening and you want, you want ad free episodes day early, ad free day early episodes of TFTC, subscribe via fountain, ad free episodes of RHR, subscribe via fountain.

719
01:01:25,034 --> 01:01:32,634
But I think the reason I bring it up in Fountain for anybody who's unaware is a podcasting app that is also a Nostra client.

720
01:01:33,574 --> 01:01:36,614
So it's been really cool to lean into that.

721
01:01:36,674 --> 01:01:42,954
But from the content creator perspective, I've been talking to Oscar and Nick from Fountain about this.

722
01:01:43,314 --> 01:01:50,054
The onus is on us as well to really drive people to these clients.

723
01:01:50,054 --> 01:01:54,054
And I think I'm beginning to really understand this with Fountain specifically.

724
01:01:54,054 --> 01:01:56,194
specifically. It's like you can actually make

725
01:01:56,232 --> 01:02:00,232
more money, more Bitcoin at the end of the day by participating.

726
01:02:00,232 --> 01:02:07,172
The onus is not only on Million, Oscar, and others building, Gleason, Jeff,

727
01:02:07,452 --> 01:02:08,412
building all these clients.

728
01:02:08,632 --> 01:02:11,872
It's on the end users really driving their audience.

729
01:02:12,072 --> 01:02:15,032
And so that's one thing we've made a point of,

730
01:02:15,112 --> 01:02:17,932
and we've actually seen it convert into higher revenue.

731
01:02:18,132 --> 01:02:22,172
It's like pumping, like, hey, come support us on Noster, be a fountain,

732
01:02:22,172 --> 01:02:26,532
and you'll get a better product if you do these paid tiers.

733
01:02:26,852 --> 01:02:29,972
And it's led to more revenue for us.

734
01:02:30,132 --> 01:02:34,892
But the overall point being is the onus isn't only on Millian and others

735
01:02:34,892 --> 01:02:36,832
building out these clients.

736
01:02:37,092 --> 01:02:41,992
It's on us as power users, really trying to drive our audience there as well

737
01:02:41,992 --> 01:02:43,792
with simple calls to action.

738
01:02:44,052 --> 01:02:47,332
And we've seen it converting pretty well in the last two weeks

739
01:02:47,332 --> 01:02:48,612
as we've been doing it more.

740
01:02:50,252 --> 01:02:50,572
Let's go.

741
01:02:50,572 --> 01:02:59,012
I love Fountain. It's another one, kind of a very highly polished Noster client.

742
01:02:59,992 --> 01:03:09,952
They existed prior to Noster, but when Noster kind of took off, they moved their membership over to Noster and they are using Noster feeds now.

743
01:03:10,092 --> 01:03:14,952
And they're using Noster events for likes and trending things, also for live streams.

744
01:03:15,412 --> 01:03:16,732
It's great to see.

745
01:03:16,732 --> 01:03:22,192
And again, another example of the versatility of this protocol.

746
01:03:22,852 --> 01:03:38,432
Just imagine everything, all the apps, all the products you're using, if they were on the same open network and you could use the same online identity controlled by you to access all of these apps and services.

747
01:03:38,832 --> 01:03:40,592
That's what we're building on Oster.

748
01:03:40,592 --> 01:03:57,872
Yeah, and I think building on the fountain example, it's really cool because I'll go into Primal, I'll check my notifications and I'll see somebody write a comment and there will be a fountain link to a particular episode and they're commenting on that episode so I can see it in Primal.

749
01:03:57,872 --> 01:04:00,932
and it's just like in the stream of all my other notifications,

750
01:04:01,212 --> 01:04:04,852
people zapping, liking, sharing posts.

751
01:04:04,852 --> 01:04:05,932
But then I'll go over to Fountain

752
01:04:05,932 --> 01:04:10,232
and to speak to the versatility of the protocol,

753
01:04:10,512 --> 01:04:13,172
like that comment will be in a specific episode.

754
01:04:13,352 --> 01:04:16,212
Like I'll go into an episode and that one comment

755
01:04:16,212 --> 01:04:19,932
that was in a flood of other notifications on Primal

756
01:04:19,932 --> 01:04:22,652
will be sort of consolidated with other comments

757
01:04:22,652 --> 01:04:26,032
specific to that episode in the Fountain client.

758
01:04:26,032 --> 01:04:29,692
and it'll aggregate the amount of sats that were zapped

759
01:04:29,692 --> 01:04:33,492
to that particular episode and you get a consolidated

760
01:04:33,492 --> 01:04:36,992
conversation around that particular episode in Fountain.

761
01:04:36,992 --> 01:04:41,172
But in Primal, it's just in the flood of everything else happening.

762
01:04:41,472 --> 01:04:43,232
I think that's a really

763
01:04:43,232 --> 01:04:48,632
stark example of the versatility you can get with these clients.

764
01:04:49,692 --> 01:04:50,732
Yeah, what a great example.

765
01:04:51,232 --> 01:04:54,992
Because what actually happens in this open network is these

766
01:04:54,992 --> 01:05:00,072
artifacts, the comments, the zaps, the episodes,

767
01:05:00,572 --> 01:05:04,132
the posts, exist as kind of signed messages

768
01:05:04,132 --> 01:05:07,892
that are kind of published to relays.

769
01:05:08,292 --> 01:05:20,432
And every app developer gets to decide how to present them to their user And the different apps have different competencies and different kind of points of view

770
01:05:20,432 --> 01:05:22,852
in terms of how the data should be presented.

771
01:05:22,852 --> 01:05:27,052
So Primal is mostly kind of a social media client

772
01:05:27,052 --> 01:05:30,112
with notification feeds and stuff like that.

773
01:05:30,192 --> 01:05:31,552
So as Marty described,

774
01:05:32,132 --> 01:05:38,152
it makes sense for us to display these events in that form.

775
01:05:38,152 --> 01:05:46,612
but fountain is predominantly like a you know music slash podcast player uh and they're plugging

776
01:05:46,612 --> 01:05:52,992
into the same data but they're they're showing it in a way that makes sense for their use case

777
01:05:52,992 --> 01:06:00,192
and it's it's a kind of mind-blowing moment for a lot of nostril users when they log in with their

778
01:06:00,192 --> 01:06:05,832
private key in in another app and see a bunch of useful content already there for them and

779
01:06:05,832 --> 01:06:08,772
It's sort of like the app already understands who they are.

780
01:06:09,292 --> 01:06:10,752
And there are many such cases.

781
01:06:10,992 --> 01:06:18,332
There is another, for example, let's say if we look at long-form textual content, like blogs, articles, and so forth.

782
01:06:20,132 --> 01:06:29,552
You know, there are already closed legacy platforms that do a pretty good job in this area, like Substack or Medium.

783
01:06:29,552 --> 01:06:34,472
and when you post an article

784
01:06:34,472 --> 01:06:37,092
people can comment, people can highlight

785
01:06:37,092 --> 01:06:41,052
and all of those comments and highlights get

786
01:06:41,052 --> 01:06:44,372
trapped inside of that closed silo

787
01:06:44,372 --> 01:06:47,652
and no one will ever see them outside of it

788
01:06:47,652 --> 01:06:50,512
and as a consequence that you don't even get

789
01:06:50,512 --> 01:06:53,932
that much traffic

790
01:06:53,932 --> 01:06:57,732
the many users using these features

791
01:06:57,732 --> 01:07:03,072
where in contrast on Noster, you publish your article.

792
01:07:03,072 --> 01:07:08,592
It exists as a signed event on any Noster relay.

793
01:07:11,172 --> 01:07:19,172
And then any app developer can use that artifact

794
01:07:19,172 --> 01:07:22,452
in any way that makes sense within their app.

795
01:07:22,912 --> 01:07:25,972
Within Primal, we decided to make long-form articles

796
01:07:25,972 --> 01:07:28,272
a first-class citizen within Primal.

797
01:07:28,412 --> 01:07:30,432
So we kind of have a dedicated tab

798
01:07:30,432 --> 01:07:32,172
and you can list all of those things there.

799
01:07:32,692 --> 01:07:35,432
But essentially, in other clients,

800
01:07:35,512 --> 01:07:37,192
people might decide to do it differently.

801
01:07:37,192 --> 01:07:41,132
But then when you interact with that article,

802
01:07:41,272 --> 01:07:43,012
when you post a reply,

803
01:07:43,132 --> 01:07:44,692
or even when you do a highlight,

804
01:07:45,172 --> 01:07:48,532
that highlight is a Noster event,

805
01:07:48,692 --> 01:07:51,232
it's a signed event that gets published to a relay.

806
01:07:51,852 --> 01:07:55,692
And then it exists in this open network

807
01:07:55,692 --> 01:07:58,792
for anyone to kind of see and interact with.

808
01:07:58,952 --> 01:08:00,572
And there's all kinds of experiences

809
01:08:00,572 --> 01:08:03,012
that can be created around that highlight alone,

810
01:08:03,172 --> 01:08:03,752
for example.

811
01:08:04,492 --> 01:08:06,252
You know, Highlighter, Pablo's Highlighter

812
01:08:06,252 --> 01:08:11,732
is, you know, an Oster app that's kind of for creators,

813
01:08:11,852 --> 01:08:15,192
but also for consumption that kind of creates

814
01:08:15,192 --> 01:08:18,372
this whole dedicated UX around highlights, right?

815
01:08:18,432 --> 01:08:20,472
There's a highlight feed and so forth.

816
01:08:20,872 --> 01:08:22,612
So these are just some examples

817
01:08:22,612 --> 01:08:24,412
where we're scratching the surface

818
01:08:24,412 --> 01:08:39,512
of what can be done when all of this exists on an open network And we very early still We still in the kind of process of catching up to the legacy kind of closed players

819
01:08:39,512 --> 01:08:41,332
in terms of capabilities and UX.

820
01:08:42,292 --> 01:08:44,212
But at some point soon,

821
01:08:44,312 --> 01:08:46,112
we will have caught up.

822
01:08:46,392 --> 01:08:48,632
And when we overtake them,

823
01:08:49,392 --> 01:08:51,112
it will be very stark.

824
01:08:51,232 --> 01:08:51,872
It will be like,

825
01:08:52,072 --> 01:08:54,752
it will be about implementing experiences

826
01:08:54,752 --> 01:08:56,972
that are just not possible in closed silos.

827
01:08:56,972 --> 01:08:59,292
so all of this is very exciting

828
01:08:59,292 --> 01:08:59,932
yeah

829
01:08:59,932 --> 01:09:02,052
it's uh

830
01:09:02,052 --> 01:09:04,952
it really is and I think

831
01:09:04,952 --> 01:09:05,992
again

832
01:09:05,992 --> 01:09:09,052
I don't want to belabor the fountain

833
01:09:09,052 --> 01:09:10,552
point but like it is so cool

834
01:09:10,552 --> 01:09:12,972
going from like primal to

835
01:09:12,972 --> 01:09:15,172
fountain it's like oh I saw this in primal

836
01:09:15,172 --> 01:09:16,132
like it's almost

837
01:09:16,132 --> 01:09:19,092
like as a creator I think I'll just

838
01:09:19,092 --> 01:09:20,932
be checking notifications

839
01:09:20,932 --> 01:09:22,992
on primal we'll see

840
01:09:22,992 --> 01:09:24,772
that some fountain related

841
01:09:24,772 --> 01:09:29,392
link is in a notification that reminds me, all right, I've got to go over to this client

842
01:09:29,392 --> 01:09:32,112
to see how this particular episode is doing.

843
01:09:32,112 --> 01:09:35,312
And then I go over to Found and I get a consolidated

844
01:09:35,312 --> 01:09:40,052
diagnosis on a particular episode

845
01:09:40,052 --> 01:09:42,912
and a notification of Primal led me

846
01:09:42,912 --> 01:09:45,312
to go take that action.

847
01:09:46,272 --> 01:09:49,892
And then things sort of blurs the line of

848
01:09:49,892 --> 01:09:54,372
what products are. And we've talked about this before. What is a business at the end of the day?

849
01:09:54,772 --> 01:09:58,612
how are businesses going to be created in the future?

850
01:09:58,712 --> 01:10:03,792
And I think as you were describing the sort of different ways

851
01:10:03,792 --> 01:10:07,972
in which this is all compatible and interoperable with each other,

852
01:10:07,972 --> 01:10:13,652
I think the best business builders in the future

853
01:10:13,652 --> 01:10:15,332
is going to be incredible curators, right?

854
01:10:15,492 --> 01:10:20,752
Like curating specific experiences for specific types of users

855
01:10:20,752 --> 01:10:22,312
and specific contexts.

856
01:10:22,312 --> 01:10:26,112
and just having a creative, curative mind

857
01:10:26,112 --> 01:10:28,352
that is really going to set people apart.

858
01:10:29,632 --> 01:10:33,712
I agree. We are seeing proliferation of content,

859
01:10:35,352 --> 01:10:38,092
not least to which is a bunch of AI

860
01:10:38,092 --> 01:10:42,372
slop out there, but that's getting better too. But in a sense

861
01:10:42,372 --> 01:10:45,592
where curation becomes

862
01:10:45,592 --> 01:10:49,172
a very important feature, maybe the feature.

863
01:10:49,172 --> 01:11:02,172
So I keep repeating, one of our goals at Primal is to enable people to find high signal content that's relevant to them.

864
01:11:03,692 --> 01:11:10,392
And then to provide a great user experience around consuming it and also creating it for creators.

865
01:11:11,932 --> 01:11:16,992
Well, on that note, disclaimer, 1031 is an investor in Primal.

866
01:11:16,992 --> 01:11:34,432
But this is an unbiased opinion. Putting my TFTC newsletter writing hat on, the Primal Publisher, is the best I've come across on Noster. You've made it so easy to just upload and publish the content in a very intuitive way.

867
01:11:34,432 --> 01:11:37,892
somebody who's worked with a bunch of different

868
01:11:37,892 --> 01:11:42,512
back-end publishers, not only on Noster, but MailChimp,

869
01:11:42,892 --> 01:11:46,252
WordPress, Ghost, you've made it very simple,

870
01:11:46,252 --> 01:12:04,272
very intuitive So thank you for that Thank you Marty That was a lot of work But you know it all open source By the way like everything that we do at Primal is open sourced under the MIT license which is the most permissive license

871
01:12:04,272 --> 01:12:16,672
So that means that anyone can take any part of our code, any part of our product, and do anything they want with it, including building competing products.

872
01:12:17,752 --> 01:12:18,232
Let's go.

873
01:12:18,432 --> 01:12:21,952
I mean, this is how this entire network is being built.

874
01:12:22,532 --> 01:12:27,752
And we are certainly standing on the shoulders of many giants to even be here.

875
01:12:29,112 --> 01:12:31,852
So it's good vibes all around.

876
01:12:32,072 --> 01:12:47,212
And I think good business in the long run as well to build out this open network in an open manner and bring the capabilities forward so that people can have the tools they need in their time of need, which seems to be about now.

877
01:12:47,752 --> 01:12:55,732
If you're out there, you're not on Nostra yet, you're living in one of these countries, UK, I know you're second in our audience.

878
01:12:55,992 --> 01:12:57,392
I know there's some of you out there listening.

879
01:12:57,612 --> 01:12:59,612
If you're not on Nostra, get on.

880
01:13:00,332 --> 01:13:01,692
You want to be on before you need it.

881
01:13:02,132 --> 01:13:08,072
And you already need it, but you may need it more in the relatively short term.

882
01:13:08,932 --> 01:13:10,892
Millian, thank you for doing what you do.

883
01:13:10,972 --> 01:13:12,652
Thank you for joining me again.

884
01:13:13,932 --> 01:13:15,732
Any final thoughts for the freaks out there?

885
01:13:15,732 --> 01:13:23,472
well thanks for having me marty that was great um i will say you know like you said thank you for

886
01:13:23,472 --> 01:13:28,632
doing what you're doing and like that's acknowledged appreciate that thank you marty

887
01:13:28,632 --> 01:13:35,392
for doing what you're doing all of the things that you do like you know uh i uh grew up in

888
01:13:35,392 --> 01:13:43,652
bitcoin listening to you and matt day in day or week in week out back from you know 2017 uh you

889
01:13:43,652 --> 01:13:50,592
guys helped me avoid all the shit coinery just because uh the the points you guys were making

890
01:13:50,592 --> 01:13:57,392
just made sense to me and i was mildly interested in ethereum from the technology point of view until

891
01:13:57,392 --> 01:14:04,052
i figured out that both the tech and the people behind it are you know uh not not something i

892
01:14:04,052 --> 01:14:13,552
want to invest time in so um all like there must be countless people who you guys helped educate

893
01:14:13,552 --> 01:14:14,612
on these topics.

894
01:14:15,572 --> 01:14:20,732
And I'm super grateful to be a 1031 portfolio company.

895
01:14:20,892 --> 01:14:29,012
I think 1031 really stands out as a venture investor in the space with high principles.

896
01:14:29,892 --> 01:14:40,672
And you guys really, you know, many out there LARP about being founder friendly and kind

897
01:14:40,672 --> 01:14:42,252
of mission aligned.

898
01:14:42,252 --> 01:14:44,532
you guys walk the walk

899
01:14:44,532 --> 01:14:46,092
so thank you

900
01:14:46,092 --> 01:14:48,332
and Matt and the rest of the

901
01:14:48,332 --> 01:14:50,472
1031 team for all

902
01:14:50,472 --> 01:14:51,132
your support

903
01:14:51,132 --> 01:14:53,972
many more years of development

904
01:14:53,972 --> 01:14:55,772
you know and building

905
01:14:55,772 --> 01:14:58,552
to come so thanks again

906
01:14:58,552 --> 01:15:00,592
and thanks for having me on the show

907
01:15:00,592 --> 01:15:02,292
as well. Well, Milyan

908
01:15:02,292 --> 01:15:04,372
it's an honor and a privilege to be walking

909
01:15:04,372 --> 01:15:06,432
the walk with you sir. We're going to win

910
01:15:06,432 --> 01:15:08,632
Let's go

911
01:15:08,632 --> 01:15:09,992
Peace and love freaks

912
01:15:09,992 --> 01:15:10,532
The cake.