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You've had a dynamic where money has become freer than free.

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You talk about a Fed just gone nuts.

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All the central banks going nuts.

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So it's all acting like safe haven.

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I believe that in a world where central bankers are tripping over themselves to devalue their

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currency, Bitcoin wins.

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In the world of fiat currencies, Bitcoin is the victor.

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I mean, that's part of the bull case for Bitcoin.

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If you're not paying attention, you probably should be.

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Chris, I've been enjoying your game, sir, online.

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I had to reach out and say, I need to get you on the podcast to talk about Bitcoin.

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How are you?

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Doing well.

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I'm very slatted.

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Thank you.

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You're the tallest troll on Bitcoin Twitter.

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How's it feel?

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That is actually something I've never heard.

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I've heard like tallest shit poster, but tallest troll, that makes a lot of sense.

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I take it.

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Yeah, I was thinking, guess what?

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We're three days past the 17th anniversary of the Genesis block.

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And I think you've been in Bitcoin for quite a while.

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We had the pleasure of meeting in person in Riga, Latvia at the Baltic Honey Badger Conference in 2024.

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I haven't caught up since.

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And like I said, I've been observing your game.

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on x and i think 2025 particularly was a crab year in bitcoin price we sort of ranged

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and people get very crabby when they range we had narratives popping up whether it was uh

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the op return limits getting lifted uh bit 444 bitcoin knots and we we tied the year up with

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quantum fud uh what are your thoughts on just the the state of discourse around bitcoin protocol

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development specifically so protocol development i think is doing like it's just chugging along just

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fine um besides like this like critical bug that they just found in bitcoin version 30 that deletes

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legacy wallets but other than that like uh yeah i mean i tried to uh make light of the filter

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situation uh the entire last year i think and i'm very happy that we moved on now to like the

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quantum fund like i think february 1st is like bit44 signaling day or something i have not seen

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a single node signal that or like a single miner um yeah that's not gonna happen but

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why do you think why do you think these narratives manifest within bitcoin quantum specifically for

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me was like come on guys we've been talking about this for years now all of a sudden

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yes some people suffer from like main character syndrome and then it's a good angle to remind

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people hey i'm still around um uh i mean the the irony like i have nothing against nick carter uh

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even though he blocked me um but like he he like came up with these very nice dice

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the FUD Bitcoin dice

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where like quantum was one side

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and now he's

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like investing with his VC

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finally he led and invested in like a

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company that makes blockchains quantum secure

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and like that company

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like I stalked it on LinkedIn

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now proudly says we're making Solana

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quantum secure which you know

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sure scams and VCs

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I'm fine with that

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but like preaching or like

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he ended with like

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everybody's going to dump on Bitcoin now because I said so and I wrote this blog post.

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And I think that's too much.

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I mean, it's worthwhile having these conversations.

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And I like to see that our smartest cryptographers are working on something

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and that we're not unprepared and we actually have contingency plans.

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But yeah, I mean, it's just boredom, I think, because not that much happens

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and everything has been going too well.

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Price has been quite high.

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You know, need a new narrative.

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yeah and now as the price is drifting higher to start the year people i haven't heard any quantum

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fund since uh since around christmas time so yeah i mean it's it's gonna happen soon that they're

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factoring like larger numbers like i mean there was this paper um i think reardon um brand black

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like he he went through it and like um who was the physicist from fidelity um bob

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what's his name

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what's his name

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yes Miguel Ras

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there was a paper claiming

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oh we have a broken

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6-bit ECC key

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like an elliptic curve key

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and then he went through this paper

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and like he saw

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you guys guessed 100 times

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and a 6-bit key to the power of 6

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is like 64

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there are 64 possibilities

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and you guessed 100 times

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so I'm not that flustered

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that like any sort of key is being broken in the near term future let alone like 128 bits

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but so yeah yeah what um again like what do you think of just like the broad state of bitcoin

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itself not the protocol well the protocol and the industry you've been working as we were

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discussing before this on satskeeper you're working on a bitcoin insurance company i mean

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I have a few companies that deal with self-custody, with inheritance and insurance of Bitcoin.

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Mainly, I'm focusing my energy on the store value aspect of Bitcoin.

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I wish more people would use it as a medium of exchange, but that simply is not the reality.

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I use my BitBox and they have a BitRefill integration. And from time to time, I use

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BitRefill to purchase goods and stuff, but I know that I'm in the absolute minority.

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And I would have thought like 10 years ago, like in 10 years from now, like we would see a lot more adoption that way.

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And again, I'm a Europe poor.

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I was not blessed with like 4 million square terminals where you can now pay with Bitcoin everywhere.

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I think this is like the most enormous news that has happened last year.

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But yeah, I think so more companies are coming in more like retail investors.

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the interest is not really there or isn't back like it was in 2021 but we have a lot of interest

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from uh yeah institutional holders to to have bitcoin on the balance and have it properly and

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self-custody so that's what i observe you mentioned that you're a euro poor uh what is the uh the

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state of the bitcoin industry and the posturing towards bitcoin as an asset from uh european

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officials and what are the boots on the ground reports of individuals so i reside here in the

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small grand ducy of luxembourg i'm sure you can point it on a map as an american high school

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educated person um and our finance minister he just spoke in bitcoin at bitcoin amsterdam

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the sovereign wealth fund of luxembourg purchased one percent of their like holdings into like

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ibid which is like a ginormous step i would would say like luxembourg is like a small country 600

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000 inhabitants but like ton and ton of people from belgium and france and germany come here to work

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and there is this thing where if you work for 10 years even if it's minimum wage um you are

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entitled to like a fat pension um once you reach retirement age and that was paid out from this uh

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wealth fund that this uh it's not a kingdom like it's like we have a grand duke um and that was set

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to expire like in 2045 or something like because markets whatever and they're spending too much

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money as all governments do um so i think it's like the right choice to pivot a little bit into

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bitcoin exposure um so i'm bullish on that uh i'm natively german i'm not that bullish on that country

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we have a really strong bitcoin community and i would say of all the european countries

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we have the most toxic bitcoin only maximal crowd like if i go to a french bitcoin meetup it will be

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a bitcoin meetup but people will yeah show you iota and ethereum and solan and all those good

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things um iota is still around yeah iota is german by the way and and it is quantum secure

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because i know that i invested like in 2015 2016 when did it come out like i i bought that whole

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bullshit um david soncibel was his name like oh it's not binary it's uh ternary like you have

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minus one plus one and zero and like i bought this whole quantum bullshit like 10 years ago

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and my my iota bags during my my shitcoin period um yeah uh those would have been some some

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cool cool bitcoin but um yeah it's still around like just yesterday i saw like a paid ad

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for for iota which is like insane to me but they were funded in bitcoin i guess

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i remember uh i remember the iota day my shitcoiner day around days around that time too

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it seems like we've been in bitcoin around the same amount of time what what drew you to it

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originally um so i had a friend in in university who was really into this like he was really

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paranoid um and he gave me bitcoin um like for free like a ton of bitcoin and i was thinking hey

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uh i don't need this i have paypal i have all the means to to pay for stuff and goods and services

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and once it reached like uh not euro parity like was at 50 cents or so like i i sold my my bag for

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like uh a graphics card um and uh then neglected for like two years and then it came back like

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fuck should i have kept this but i was not a cypher punk i was an engineer i was at university

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with like technical minded people and there was a lot of conversation about like bitcoin but um i

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didn't grok it until let's say 2017 when i realized hey hang on uh all my my stock gains

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like i came in and i always i'm gladly emitters like i came in for number go up like i always say

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like there's two two kinds of bitcoiners people that come for number go up and fucking liars

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and i admit that people come into it and then they change and then they stay for the sovereignty and

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they stay for the freedom money and like the fuck you money and those great great aspects but

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and maybe today with all the education that we have like a lot more people come into it from

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that side without this number go up but like back then i would vager everybody went into bitcoin

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because wow this this is an asset that goes up and you know that's why my genesis number go up

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is the best technology that humans have ever

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come into contact with.

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It is

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somebody, because we were discussing this

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earlier,

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I use Bitcoin as a medium of exchange.

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I pay Logan.

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He's on here now. He gets paid in Bitcoin

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every two weeks.

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Other members of our staff get paid in Bitcoin

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by my VPN service

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with Bitcoin.

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And the payments aspect is

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very

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useful

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incredibly important but i think people try to over index on that even though i use it every day

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literally um as a payments means people over index on that and try to fade number go up because it's

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like uh we're we just sound greedy here but i think it's they get down to bitcoin's sort of

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path towards success you need number to go up massively over time yeah i mean it's uh inevitably

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like people will have more eyeballs on it and more people will accept bitcoin and want to be

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paid in bitcoin um if it's like crab walking for like five years i'd be fine but i would assume

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that adoption would like not grow as steadily um i i use bitcoin daily again in my company like i

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pay people in canada and in australia and i'd rather put a bullet in my brain to do like a wire

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transfer and wait like three or five days and pay like 50 bucks in fees like from a german bank to

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a luxembourg bank to like a singaporean and like it takes ages and with bitcoin like just like and

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it doesn't get old like every time i get like a separate invoice and i just pay it in like a couple

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seconds and then the guy texts me man are you ever like asleep or what no it's like sending like this

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bearer asset like this digital cash at the end of the globe in like a second and like there's nothing

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i can do to to take or claw it back and that guy is paid and no intermediary has been paid maybe like

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i don't know lightning or like an on-chain fee of like a couple cents right now that's amazing

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but i get that i'm like an enthusiast like i run my own nodes i have like enough liquidity

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management to like pay any invoice like i pay several million sets uh easily when other people

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struggle with that uh like the technology is not or the ux is not there yet like i really bullish on Arcade and all these things and I happy that people like smarter people work on that But yeah I want to see more people use it

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Are we a dying breed? People

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that run our own nodes and

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self-custody?

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I think if you did last year

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taught us anything, is that

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running a node makes you a

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Bitcoin.

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There's a lot of LARP

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around that.

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every customer that i get they're really like privacy conscious these days like it used to be

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like only uh like the tinfoil wearing uh weirdos uh like we're like into this like us like we are

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oh i'm using a vpn like that is like weird nowadays it's absolutely normal and now when i

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onboard people like i'm a big fan of liana wanted um i always explain the the privacy implications

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of connecting your wallet descriptor to an external node

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because then, of course, you leak your holdings.

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There's no loss of your keys, but you lose some privacy.

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And especially with a wallet like Liana,

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it's a single click and have a pruned node installed fully.

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There's no porting magic.

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Everything happens in the background,

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and it's like 35 gigabytes of blockchain data downloaded

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over the next two, three days or so.

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And I show this to people, and they're excited.

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wow now i have my own like full node like i can onboard people now 100 the right way they get like

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a hardware signer they get like a multi-sig they get a node um and i think that interest has grown

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so no we're not a dying breed not on my watch that's good to know what um what do you think

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about uh obviously jameson lopp has been following the the wrench attacks on bitcoiners and i think

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that as a and then as somebody who's really focused on self-custody multi-sig self-custody

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specifically um what do you think about the conversation around self-custody and the fears

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that are beginning to increase because of these wrench attacks which if you look at it and you

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take eight billion people into accounts um and all right maybe we'll shrink the the total

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addressable market to the amount of people that hold bitcoin or wider crypto to maybe hundreds of

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millions um i think there was 35 five dollar wrench attacks last year um how do you think it was even

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more like i think jameson lob actually like he used to manage this github all by himself and now

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he has like somebody who puts all those data entries in there because it was like one one a

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week like 52 or something at least um yeah i mean that that drove me to to launch biturance um like

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I know how to perfectly protect my Bitcoin against any form of cyber threats.

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That is solved.

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We have hardware signers.

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We have geographically distributed multisigs.

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I would say it is because the magic of Bitcoin script,

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as opposed to any other shitcoin,

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you have all the primitives,

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all the security built in natively on Bitcoin to be protected against hacking.

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You can be socially engineered,

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but like most of these hackings again like they they are like down to user error like in the end

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like the person being hacked signed the transaction because he was duped like that is solved like you

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can like i i would wager actually like there has not been a hardware signing device that has been

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hacked like we all wear these tinfoil hats like i don't know cold card with like a ton of secure

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elements etc like everything like that is solved but like i for my life of me could not figure out

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00:17:02,567 --> 00:17:07,648
what i would do in the event somebody kicks in my door like if somebody comes in and threatens me

225
00:17:07,648 --> 00:17:14,307
my family or like anybody i love um i can of course start drawing like a chart and tell them

226
00:17:14,307 --> 00:17:18,507
hey i have a five of six whatever multi-sig i have like this time decaying thing like

227
00:17:18,507 --> 00:17:24,248
you can't uh physically like uh you have to like abduct me to different places for me to sign the

228
00:17:24,248 --> 00:17:30,707
transaction um wouldn't it be great uh if i could give them like an old ledger or something with

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00:17:30,707 --> 00:17:32,767
some Bitcoin, even like a larger

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00:17:32,767 --> 00:17:34,748
sum, and they would be happy

231
00:17:34,748 --> 00:17:35,947
and left me alone maybe.

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Why can't they insure something like this?

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00:17:39,287 --> 00:17:40,967
We're looking around like in 2022,

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00:17:41,568 --> 00:17:42,588
2021, when we

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00:17:42,588 --> 00:17:44,588
launched the idea, the company was founded in

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2022.

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00:17:47,168 --> 00:17:48,767
And nobody would want

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00:17:48,767 --> 00:17:50,588
to touch Bitcoin as an insurable

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00:17:50,588 --> 00:17:52,547
medium, whereas you can insure your gold bars

240
00:17:52,547 --> 00:17:54,447
against a robbery. You can insure

241
00:17:54,447 --> 00:17:56,007
your fine art against robbery.

242
00:17:56,248 --> 00:17:57,267
That's no problem.

243
00:17:58,027 --> 00:18:00,527
But Bitcoin back then was uninsurable.

244
00:18:00,707 --> 00:18:06,307
and that's why we like launched insurance with the hope to like give you a bargaining chip um in the

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00:18:06,307 --> 00:18:11,107
event of a five dollar wrench attack and since then like anchor watch has also come along and i think

246
00:18:11,107 --> 00:18:17,428
that is the last missing mosaic like the puzzle piece and like your perfect security setup if you

247
00:18:17,428 --> 00:18:26,227
have like cyber protection plus five dollar wrench protection and what what do you think changes the

248
00:18:26,227 --> 00:18:30,388
minds of lloyds and london and other insurers out there that are getting them comfortable too

249
00:18:31,668 --> 00:18:34,627
i mean becca is very persistent i think

250
00:18:36,867 --> 00:18:45,188
there um so like we when we launched we talked to virtually every single insurance company in europe

251
00:18:45,188 --> 00:18:49,908
um and they laughed in our face and like uh closed the door and some people re-invited us

252
00:18:49,908 --> 00:18:54,547
and kept like stringing us along and sooner or later you realize oh there's like two people three

253
00:18:54,547 --> 00:19:00,627
people five people in these calls um suddenly you realize oh you're being abused for like uh

254
00:19:00,627 --> 00:19:04,227
educating their staff on bitcoin but they're never gonna sign or underwrite your product

255
00:19:04,947 --> 00:19:13,348
um and that abruptly changed uh in 2024 when was it like the the bitcoin etf launched i think as

256
00:19:13,348 --> 00:19:19,987
soon as like larry fink blessed this asset as like okay this is here to stay um you get a callback

257
00:19:19,987 --> 00:19:24,307
from allianz you get a callback from all these other insurance companies because they realize

258
00:19:24,307 --> 00:19:27,848
realize, okay, this is not just some crazy assets.

259
00:19:27,848 --> 00:19:29,987
There is some money to be made.

260
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Insurance companies, they need to invest in products that are of interest to be insured.

261
00:19:36,428 --> 00:19:39,027
And yeah, that was a blessing in disguise.

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00:19:39,027 --> 00:19:40,787
We launched in 2022.

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00:19:40,787 --> 00:19:45,328
We had a white label insurer, which was kind of unknown.

264
00:19:45,328 --> 00:19:51,767
And yeah, they went under, sadly, not because of us.

265
00:19:51,767 --> 00:19:55,047
They had a financing round for 50 million euros.

266
00:19:55,047 --> 00:20:00,767
And then by the end of 2024, they had to file Chapter 11.

267
00:20:00,767 --> 00:20:03,007
No customers of ours was hurt by that.

268
00:20:03,007 --> 00:20:05,328
We could migrate.

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00:20:05,328 --> 00:20:10,668
And now we have Liberty Mutual, one of the largest species insurers in the world as an

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00:20:10,668 --> 00:20:11,668
underwriter.

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00:20:11,668 --> 00:20:15,707
And they are not messing around.

272
00:20:15,707 --> 00:20:19,527
It's good to have these financialization developments.

273
00:20:19,527 --> 00:20:23,227
I'm not a big fan of BlackRock, but it helped bring the conversation forward.

274
00:20:23,568 --> 00:20:26,947
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303
00:22:26,428 --> 00:22:34,807
how social the social aspect of a social signaling from those we perceive to be successful comes into

304
00:22:34,807 --> 00:22:41,388
play here and is weird like uh i think that's another thing i've been grappling with but just

305
00:22:41,388 --> 00:22:46,568
sitting back and observing over the last few years since the ETFs launched and here in the

306
00:22:46,568 --> 00:22:53,307
states as we've had these treasury companies launch and Michael Saylor really skyrocketed

307
00:22:53,307 --> 00:23:01,188
himself to the top of Bitcoin fame, if you will, for lack of a better term, is this sort

308
00:23:01,188 --> 00:23:06,688
of confrontation with the cypherpunk for rates that Bitcoin was founded in and grew up with

309
00:23:06,688 --> 00:23:10,888
and the suits coming and saying,

310
00:23:10,967 --> 00:23:12,207
all right, we like this asset too

311
00:23:12,207 --> 00:23:13,828
and people reacting to it.

312
00:23:14,068 --> 00:23:19,127
I think, I mean, I've always been in MBK's camp

313
00:23:19,127 --> 00:23:20,867
where Bitcoin is successful.

314
00:23:21,207 --> 00:23:22,347
Everybody's going to want to adopt it

315
00:23:22,347 --> 00:23:24,928
and you just have to accept that.

316
00:23:24,928 --> 00:23:25,527
It's a great thing.

317
00:23:26,388 --> 00:23:27,248
What do you expect?

318
00:23:27,367 --> 00:23:29,668
Everybody wants a piece of the pie

319
00:23:29,668 --> 00:23:31,467
if we build something that's good.

320
00:23:31,787 --> 00:23:33,807
Of course, nation states will come.

321
00:23:33,807 --> 00:23:40,888
of course like the financial players will come like bitcoin is for for anybody who who wants it

322
00:23:40,888 --> 00:23:46,648
and uh it strengthens the network like the more greedy somebody is the better it is for everybody

323
00:23:46,648 --> 00:23:52,707
else um but there's like yeah entirely new dynamics now like i don't know with venezuela i

324
00:23:52,707 --> 00:23:58,787
don't know if that is fake news or something like really it's really weird uh that's like okay there's

325
00:23:58,787 --> 00:24:02,908
They stayed with 600,000 Bitcoin and Donald has just abducted.

326
00:24:03,748 --> 00:24:09,707
We were talking before we hit record about how Odell likes to troll in the chat.

327
00:24:09,787 --> 00:24:14,328
He's actually trolling me in the chat right now because I did a short video on the Venezuelan story.

328
00:24:14,428 --> 00:24:17,148
And then our team here at TFTC clickbaited it.

329
00:24:17,148 --> 00:24:23,307
And the tweet says, what if I told you a DEA informant might control access to 600,000 Bitcoin?

330
00:24:24,248 --> 00:24:25,227
That's a wild theory.

331
00:24:25,648 --> 00:24:27,328
But I don't know.

332
00:24:27,328 --> 00:24:33,568
do they have 600 000 bitcoin maybe i mean it's just like some some assumption uh and i'm pretty

333
00:24:33,568 --> 00:24:38,587
sure that maduro didn't i mean he had like five different output changes maybe at like

334
00:24:38,587 --> 00:24:43,727
a lot of hardware designers stuck in and what is the nike what is the european perspective on what

335
00:24:43,727 --> 00:24:51,967
the u.s just did over the last five days so like demonstrably like it's not constitutional what you

336
00:24:51,967 --> 00:24:56,727
did um pretending like otherwise it's like a little bit like muddying the the waters there but

337
00:24:56,727 --> 00:24:59,867
these constitutional rules

338
00:24:59,867 --> 00:25:01,668
they work in stable systems

339
00:25:01,668 --> 00:25:04,047
it's like currently the world is not

340
00:25:04,047 --> 00:25:05,928
that and I think

341
00:25:05,928 --> 00:25:07,008
the general

342
00:25:07,008 --> 00:25:09,908
reaction in Europe would be

343
00:25:09,908 --> 00:25:11,847
like orange man bad and like

344
00:25:11,847 --> 00:25:12,668
he can't do that

345
00:25:12,668 --> 00:25:15,928
but if you talk to anybody who has actually

346
00:25:15,928 --> 00:25:17,987
lived under Venezuelan communism

347
00:25:17,987 --> 00:25:19,367
they understand

348
00:25:19,367 --> 00:25:20,707
viscerally

349
00:25:20,707 --> 00:25:23,807
they're very relieved, they're very

350
00:25:23,807 --> 00:25:25,547
happy that he has been removed

351
00:25:25,547 --> 00:25:30,467
and it's like one of the cleanest military operations to have ever occurred.

352
00:25:30,467 --> 00:25:33,527
Like so clean that some people might say, okay, this was like,

353
00:25:34,027 --> 00:25:38,447
he cut a deal and voluntarily like came to the drop-off spot.

354
00:25:39,068 --> 00:25:42,768
But like my take is again, like this was necessary.

355
00:25:43,227 --> 00:25:44,648
It's I'm happy he's gone.

356
00:25:45,188 --> 00:25:49,847
And yeah, even though like I believe more so than Trump,

357
00:25:49,888 --> 00:25:53,268
I believe in soft power and he does not believe in that like at all.

358
00:25:53,268 --> 00:26:00,347
like he like soft power only works on people that listen to reason and there are some international

359
00:26:00,347 --> 00:26:07,328
players right now who would not listen to reason and yeah occasionally reminding everyone uh where

360
00:26:07,328 --> 00:26:15,148
the largest stick resides um that recalibrates like some incentives uh much faster than like some

361
00:26:15,148 --> 00:26:21,568
un statements or like some european finger wagging so yeah i'm on board with this move but

362
00:26:21,568 --> 00:26:27,668
i i would not want to be on the receiving end like i think there was definitely a pre-range deal

363
00:26:27,668 --> 00:26:31,867
like if you look at how happy maduro is when he's like sitting with the dea agents it's like you

364
00:26:31,867 --> 00:26:40,027
knew uh happening um but like going back to i mean again who knows whether or not they have 600 000

365
00:26:40,027 --> 00:26:44,008
bitcoin but i mean people have been speculating and these stories been out there it's been actually

366
00:26:44,008 --> 00:27:00,215
funny to watch um the venezuela bitcoin story hit mainstream because i sure as you know if you been in the industry for a decade you know that Venezuelans I think on a per capita basis were some of the largest adopters of Bitcoin

367
00:27:00,215 --> 00:27:01,415
simply because they needed to,

368
00:27:01,475 --> 00:27:02,375
because they had hyperinflation

369
00:27:02,375 --> 00:27:05,215
and the dictatorship that they were trying to evade.

370
00:27:05,475 --> 00:27:07,255
And Bitcoin mining was big in Venezuela.

371
00:27:07,455 --> 00:27:09,655
I think they were top three country at one point

372
00:27:09,655 --> 00:27:11,135
about 10 years ago.

373
00:27:11,795 --> 00:27:14,115
Then Maduro came in and ruined that

374
00:27:14,115 --> 00:27:16,515
by seizing all the mining operations.

375
00:27:16,855 --> 00:27:25,455
obviously the diaspora that has resulted from the socialist dictatorship over the last 25 years.

376
00:27:25,595 --> 00:27:31,215
You have people sending money back to Venezuela using Bitcoin and stable coins.

377
00:27:32,075 --> 00:27:38,135
And so Bitcoin's been a big theme in Venezuela for well over a decade now at this point.

378
00:27:38,135 --> 00:27:45,615
But I think the theories about how the Maduro regime may have acquired 600,000 Bitcoin again,

379
00:27:45,615 --> 00:27:48,255
And whether or not they did is yet to be determined.

380
00:27:48,455 --> 00:27:51,295
But the theory is that they were doing two things,

381
00:27:51,295 --> 00:27:55,335
one of which was swapping gold for Bitcoin with other countries.

382
00:27:55,335 --> 00:27:57,275
They're a gold-rich country,

383
00:27:57,635 --> 00:28:03,095
and they wanted to diversify those gold holdings into Bitcoin

384
00:28:03,095 --> 00:28:07,035
because it allows them to do things that you can't do with gold,

385
00:28:07,135 --> 00:28:09,675
mainly send large amounts of money over the Internet.

386
00:28:09,915 --> 00:28:13,395
And then the other was they were selling oil,

387
00:28:13,395 --> 00:28:16,555
routing around sanctions, selling oil for Tether,

388
00:28:17,135 --> 00:28:18,975
and then converting that Tether to Bitcoin

389
00:28:18,975 --> 00:28:20,735
because they don't want Tether to blacklist them.

390
00:28:21,575 --> 00:28:23,995
And if you think about them doing that,

391
00:28:24,055 --> 00:28:28,435
like you said, I did not like the Madura regime.

392
00:28:28,715 --> 00:28:30,935
I'm happy that he's out of power,

393
00:28:30,935 --> 00:28:35,215
but let's run with the assumption that they did acquire 600,000 Bitcoin

394
00:28:35,215 --> 00:28:36,335
and did it in that way.

395
00:28:36,595 --> 00:28:39,735
It's pretty cool because it highlights Bitcoin's value prop,

396
00:28:39,855 --> 00:28:43,235
which is this neutral reserve asset outside the purview of

397
00:28:43,235 --> 00:28:50,275
the five i's the g8 un whatever you want to call it yeah i always say like to me as a businessman

398
00:28:50,275 --> 00:28:55,875
like the uh number one use case it's like international trade with bitcoin because it's

399
00:28:55,875 --> 00:29:00,915
it saves so much time and you can find enough crazy people on every continent that accept

400
00:29:00,915 --> 00:29:06,675
bitcoin and it makes things like much much quicker like i i like i don't know i have it's not around

401
00:29:06,675 --> 00:29:10,535
me like i have this in germany we're not trusted or like in europe in general we're not trusted

402
00:29:10,535 --> 00:29:18,055
with a shopping cart you have to put like a coin like yeah to release it and i thought to get rid

403
00:29:18,055 --> 00:29:23,635
of the last fiat i will create like a bitcoin commemorative thing that you put in but you can

404
00:29:23,635 --> 00:29:28,895
remove it immediately like you can crack essentially like shopping carts and i wanted to have this made

405
00:29:28,895 --> 00:29:34,615
out of like brass and i was looking like where to manufacture this and like in china with alibaba

406
00:29:34,615 --> 00:29:37,795
I found a brass molding company.

407
00:29:39,155 --> 00:29:44,075
And they had commemorative coins with Ethereum and Monero, etc.

408
00:29:44,375 --> 00:29:46,895
already in their product lineup.

409
00:29:47,115 --> 00:29:49,215
And I asked them, hey, you manufacture this.

410
00:29:49,275 --> 00:29:50,695
Do you also accept Bitcoin?

411
00:29:51,115 --> 00:29:52,395
And they said, yeah, sure we do.

412
00:29:53,175 --> 00:29:56,735
And instead of sending a wire transfer to Alibaba,

413
00:29:56,915 --> 00:29:59,115
it goes again, Luxembourg, Singapore, China.

414
00:29:59,115 --> 00:30:02,315
It takes at least three days and it costs me 50 euros.

415
00:30:02,315 --> 00:30:08,595
um i like just sent bitcoin with like 22 minutes like on chain they confirmed like a balance payment

416
00:30:08,595 --> 00:30:14,975
was not out yet but like the initial payment and like in less time than it took for them to like

417
00:30:14,975 --> 00:30:19,775
would have received the money via wire transfer they already like seen cmult the tool they showed

418
00:30:19,775 --> 00:30:24,695
me pictures of like here this is the tool like wow this was fucking fast and of course they could at

419
00:30:24,695 --> 00:30:30,315
any point could have like rugged me because there's no you know chargeback but they wanted to have the

420
00:30:30,315 --> 00:30:37,595
other 50 of the money and then they like delivered uh 2 000 of these like stamped uh yeah brass uh

421
00:30:37,595 --> 00:30:43,215
coins to me uh and i was like wow this is like international trade like this was like five years

422
00:30:43,215 --> 00:30:49,815
ago um like why would i ever like use a wire transfer or like people tell me oh i use transfer

423
00:30:49,815 --> 00:30:54,195
wise like even there like you pay a ton of fees and then like the currency conversion and there's

424
00:30:54,195 --> 00:31:00,295
slippage and it takes time and yeah bitcoin just just works globally but now we have stable coins

425
00:31:00,295 --> 00:31:06,615
stable coins are here why do we need bitcoin at all yeah that's uh but people say like michael

426
00:31:06,615 --> 00:31:12,375
saylor has done the most for bitcoin adoption um i always like challenge that idea like he has done

427
00:31:12,375 --> 00:31:20,055
like more than you and i probably definitely ouch i mean he he has uh again also a very big stick

428
00:31:20,935 --> 00:31:28,055
but paolo aruino to me like he is the one guy in the space who discovered and understands product

429
00:31:28,055 --> 00:31:34,875
market shit like i'm not i don't care about tether like i i have no use for it myself but i 100

430
00:31:34,875 --> 00:31:41,895
understand why like everybody in argentina uh like prefers the the brand of dollar attached to

431
00:31:41,895 --> 00:31:47,715
something than like oh it is a volatile asset of bitcoin like he has probably driven crypto

432
00:31:47,715 --> 00:31:54,295
adoption and with that also bitcoin adoption more than any other other person i would say globally

433
00:31:54,295 --> 00:31:56,155
I would co-sign that.

434
00:31:56,275 --> 00:32:00,655
And it's funny listening to him tell the origin story of Tether,

435
00:32:00,815 --> 00:32:02,515
the stable coin specifically, because he's like,

436
00:32:02,595 --> 00:32:05,095
ah, we had some customers asking for it,

437
00:32:05,155 --> 00:32:08,095
and we thought it would be like a $100 million market cap coin,

438
00:32:08,215 --> 00:32:08,855
so we did it.

439
00:32:09,355 --> 00:32:12,495
And lo and behold, now we're one of the largest buyers

440
00:32:12,495 --> 00:32:15,975
of U.S. treasuries in the world competing with nations.

441
00:32:15,975 --> 00:32:19,595
Can you imagine, he wrote that entirely without cloud.

442
00:32:19,815 --> 00:32:20,875
He didn't vibe code it.

443
00:32:20,875 --> 00:32:30,235
imagine you get to create this like before llms it is uh and it's it's been funny watching uh

444
00:32:30,235 --> 00:32:36,835
over the years the tether fud obviously had bitfinexed um yeah who emerged after the 2016

445
00:32:36,835 --> 00:32:43,555
bitfinex hack uh again i fell for the quantum i fell for the bitfinex i fell oh you fell for

446
00:32:43,555 --> 00:32:51,735
of course i i fully i thought oh yeah like why why is there no big four audit why aren't

447
00:32:51,735 --> 00:32:55,955
and then like you see okay they had like liquidation events where they paid out like 20

448
00:32:55,955 --> 00:33:01,815
without like flinching and i like no bank would have survived that like they they are fully funded

449
00:33:01,815 --> 00:33:08,115
like nowadays i believe that um but like back then i mean again i'm a gullible person i guess

450
00:33:08,115 --> 00:33:16,255
i i believe that for for some time well what was it uh i think it was i think around the ft yeah

451
00:33:16,255 --> 00:33:21,535
i think the summer before the ftx blow up in summer 22 i think they had like a three-day

452
00:33:21,535 --> 00:33:26,735
redemption of like 20 billion tether and handled it yeah handled it seamlessly

453
00:33:26,735 --> 00:33:33,395
they they are very very liquid i'm saying like pound for pound like with 200 employees or so

454
00:33:33,395 --> 00:33:39,555
like they are the most profitable company on this face of the planet uh i mean what who's beating

455
00:33:39,555 --> 00:33:44,515
tether as a company like in profitability i don't think there's some vibe coder out there who's uh

456
00:33:44,515 --> 00:33:49,455
he's got a fire under his ass right now that's saying i'm gonna be a company of one that uh

457
00:33:49,455 --> 00:33:53,675
is more profitable i think it's gonna be very hard to be more profitable than tether like they're

458
00:33:53,675 --> 00:34:04,435
buying 8888.888888 bitcoin per quarter it's insane like i mean i used to work in china and

459
00:34:04,435 --> 00:34:09,175
there they are really like big into the number eight because it brings luck and you had to pay

460
00:34:09,175 --> 00:34:14,935
like more if your phone number that you were assigned to had more aids like yeah is there an

461
00:34:14,935 --> 00:34:20,255
association with that like what is the reason why i mean i know the the port is like 88883 like

462
00:34:20,255 --> 00:34:29,015
but i'm i'm assuming there's some they're paying an homage to the chinese uh the chinese

463
00:34:29,015 --> 00:34:35,655
tradition of of admiring the number eight that's just my assumption but uh yeah some some

464
00:34:35,655 --> 00:34:42,775
superstition like i i would also buy 8800 bitcoin if i could but you know different size pockets

465
00:34:42,775 --> 00:34:47,835
the um you mean you mentioned earlier you're excited about arcade and that's something

466
00:34:47,835 --> 00:34:52,395
whether it's Arcade or just Arc generally is,

467
00:34:52,515 --> 00:34:54,015
I mean, you have competing Arc protocols,

468
00:34:54,115 --> 00:34:58,315
but Arc as a sort of high-level protocol,

469
00:34:58,655 --> 00:35:03,195
bringing new extensibility to Bitcoin via second layer

470
00:35:03,195 --> 00:35:04,915
and being interoperable,

471
00:35:05,095 --> 00:35:06,875
lightning, another second-layer protocols.

472
00:35:06,875 --> 00:35:10,695
That's something that I've been really excited about,

473
00:35:10,775 --> 00:35:12,895
and I think it's happening relatively under the radar

474
00:35:12,895 --> 00:35:13,555
behind the scenes.

475
00:35:13,655 --> 00:35:14,755
Not many people are paying attention,

476
00:35:14,755 --> 00:35:23,995
But I think the foundations for the sci-fi banking stack of the future are being built right in front of our eyes.

477
00:35:24,075 --> 00:35:29,815
Like if you combine Lightning, eCashments, ARK, Liquid, Liquid's having its day.

478
00:35:29,995 --> 00:35:32,375
It's been around for a decade now.

479
00:35:32,615 --> 00:35:34,315
People are finally starting to use it.

480
00:35:35,375 --> 00:35:37,535
And then what else is there?

481
00:35:37,635 --> 00:35:38,835
You have Spark as well.

482
00:35:39,615 --> 00:35:44,375
It feels like we're getting to the point where you can really begin to build out the sovereign banking stack.

483
00:35:44,375 --> 00:35:52,075
on top of the protocol yeah i mean bitcoin uh is like we have the scarcity with the limitedness

484
00:35:52,075 --> 00:35:57,135
through that and we can verify it and then yeah i've been using arcade os like the the arc

485
00:35:57,135 --> 00:36:04,055
implementation from um not second btc what's their name i think they're called arc arc labs

486
00:36:04,055 --> 00:36:09,635
arc labs yeah the wonderful like ux like with lightning always say i have this bitcoin why

487
00:36:09,635 --> 00:36:13,815
can't i receive oh you need inbound liquidity like this this conversation alone like you would

488
00:36:13,815 --> 00:36:20,435
not pick up a normie onto anything non-custodial like they they were fine with wallet of satoshi

489
00:36:20,435 --> 00:36:26,255
speaking of europe world of satoshi closed their custodial wallets in europe uh like

490
00:36:26,255 --> 00:36:33,175
one week ago or so like european union asked for some uh data on the users and they said yeah fuck

491
00:36:33,175 --> 00:36:39,375
it we only like you get to withdraw your funds and you can move on to the semi-self custodial

492
00:36:39,375 --> 00:36:44,955
uh world of satoshi version and they're using spark right because they i mean they shut that

493
00:36:44,955 --> 00:36:50,195
on the us years ago but they just came back with their non-custodial spark implementation so i think

494
00:36:50,195 --> 00:36:56,755
it's like some form of like super not private multi-sick thing i have not looked all too much

495
00:36:56,755 --> 00:37:03,595
into it like i i onboard people if it's custodial i onboard them with blink um but uh yeah i mean

496
00:37:03,595 --> 00:37:09,835
it's uh again the tangent i was on was like lightning is too non-user friendly and arcade

497
00:37:09,835 --> 00:37:17,115
is amazing like for that i mean it's again like a beta but you can use arcade os and just deposit

498
00:37:17,115 --> 00:37:22,235
bitcoin and then you can pay lightning invoices and it just works it's like amazing um the only

499
00:37:22,235 --> 00:37:26,315
downside you have to be like come online like every month or so which for some people is too

500
00:37:26,315 --> 00:37:32,315
much of a hassle i guess but um it's amazing that this works without any soft fork which is like a

501
00:37:32,315 --> 00:37:39,575
thing you know yeah and i think they're working on that liveliness ux problem um but it's a

502
00:37:39,575 --> 00:37:45,195
protocols where you can just automatically push things into the next round um

503
00:37:45,195 --> 00:37:51,735
what uh what doesn't exist yet that you that you want to exist within bitcoin

504
00:37:51,735 --> 00:38:00,775
i mean so i'm facing like we work with a traditional bank here in germany one of the

505
00:38:00,775 --> 00:38:05,675
first traditional banks to adopt like a Bitcoin only education program.

506
00:38:06,255 --> 00:38:11,135
And there we had like a very like 3000 people German Bitcoin conference,

507
00:38:11,135 --> 00:38:13,335
like just in October of last year.

508
00:38:14,075 --> 00:38:16,255
And there I had a ton,

509
00:38:16,335 --> 00:38:18,815
like I had a couple of workshops and I did my quiz show.

510
00:38:19,015 --> 00:38:20,815
And then like in the workshops,

511
00:38:20,935 --> 00:38:23,755
I was like blabbergasted and taking it back.

512
00:38:23,835 --> 00:38:26,435
How many older people attended?

513
00:38:26,615 --> 00:38:30,515
There was like 80 people and they were like 50, 60, 70 years old.

514
00:38:30,775 --> 00:38:36,135
into Bitcoin. I was like, wow. And the number one question that came up was always,

515
00:38:36,295 --> 00:38:44,035
how do I make sure that my kids get to my Bitcoin? And I was like, yeah, we are kind of young,

516
00:38:44,135 --> 00:38:47,195
you know, like we're not really thinking about inheritance planning. We're not thinking about

517
00:38:47,195 --> 00:38:53,735
like writing a will or something. But Bitcoin is a special asset where like, if you want to

518
00:38:53,735 --> 00:38:57,655
inherit it properly, like it's in self-custody, like it's not on Coinbase. And Coinbase, it's

519
00:38:57,655 --> 00:39:04,695
trivial to have your death certificate and your family gets your Bitcoin. Maybe. But with self-custody

520
00:39:04,695 --> 00:39:09,495
Bitcoin, there are so many foot guns. And in the audience, there are so many really smart people

521
00:39:09,495 --> 00:39:16,395
asking these questions and think there needs to be much more user-friendly experience for this

522
00:39:16,395 --> 00:39:21,215
kind of customer. Because you can do it with a cold card, with a Bitbox. The Ana wallet, I think,

523
00:39:21,215 --> 00:39:28,095
is the best go-to way to do bitcoin inheritance where you can just have like a multi-sig that

524
00:39:28,095 --> 00:39:34,755
degrades essentially if you're inactive for 15 months and there i would wish but this is only

525
00:39:34,755 --> 00:39:41,575
possible this soft fork that this 15 month relative time lock window would be increased to like five

526
00:39:41,575 --> 00:39:46,195
years or 10 years or something like that so in the event that i kick the bucket that my air just

527
00:39:46,195 --> 00:39:51,055
has to wait can have a pre-registered like hardware signing device and just have to plug it in like

528
00:39:51,055 --> 00:39:57,415
the ux there needs to improve like a little bit and yeah i mean jack dorsey's working on something

529
00:39:57,415 --> 00:40:01,195
cool there what's up freaks this report was brought to you by good friends at silent silent

530
00:40:01,195 --> 00:40:05,575
creates everyday faraday gear that protects your hardware we're in bitcoin we have a lot of hardware

531
00:40:05,575 --> 00:40:10,455
that we need to secure your wallet emit signals that can leave you vulnerable you want to pick up

532
00:40:10,455 --> 00:40:24,363
silence gear put your hardware in that i have a tap signer right here i got the silent card holder replaced my wallet i was using Ridge Wallet because it secured against RFID signal jacking Silent the card holder does the same thing It much sleeker fits in my pocket much easier

533
00:40:24,722 --> 00:40:28,082
I also have the Faraday phone sleeve, which you can put a hardware wallet in.

534
00:40:28,422 --> 00:40:30,002
We're actually using it for our keys at the house too.

535
00:40:30,063 --> 00:40:30,922
There's been a lot of robberies.

536
00:40:31,023 --> 00:40:33,523
They have essential Faraday slings, Faraday backpacks.

537
00:40:34,043 --> 00:40:34,982
It's a Bitcoin company.

538
00:40:35,102 --> 00:40:36,202
They're running on a Bitcoin standard.

539
00:40:36,323 --> 00:40:37,043
They have a Bitcoin treasury.

540
00:40:37,043 --> 00:40:39,002
They accept Bitcoin via strike.

541
00:40:39,002 --> 00:40:47,482
So go to slnt.com slash tftc to get 15% off anything or simply just use the code tftc when shopping at slnt.com.

542
00:40:47,722 --> 00:40:49,843
Patented technology, special operations approved.

543
00:40:50,222 --> 00:40:51,123
It has free shipping as well.

544
00:40:51,222 --> 00:40:51,802
So go check it out.

545
00:40:51,942 --> 00:40:52,403
What's up, freaks?

546
00:40:53,143 --> 00:40:54,682
Been seeing a lot of YouTube comments.

547
00:40:54,782 --> 00:40:55,962
Marty, your skin looks so good.

548
00:40:56,202 --> 00:40:57,563
You're looking fit these days.

549
00:40:58,762 --> 00:40:59,662
How are you doing it?

550
00:40:59,722 --> 00:41:01,123
Well, number one, I'm going to the gym more.

551
00:41:01,883 --> 00:41:02,823
Trying to get my swell on.

552
00:41:03,883 --> 00:41:07,363
Trying to be a good example for my young son to fit.

553
00:41:07,363 --> 00:41:11,942
healthy dad. But part of that is having a good regimen, particularly staying hydrated,

554
00:41:12,082 --> 00:41:17,282
making sure I have the right electrolytes and salts in my body. That is why I use salt of the

555
00:41:17,282 --> 00:41:23,602
earth. I drink probably three of these a day with one packet of salt of the earth. I'm liking the

556
00:41:23,602 --> 00:41:29,002
pink lemonade right now. It's my flavor of choice. This is their creatine. I've added this to my

557
00:41:29,002 --> 00:41:34,023
regimen. They have it in these packets as well. It makes it extremely convenient if you're traveling.

558
00:41:34,023 --> 00:41:39,282
You want to work out while you're traveling, but you don't want to be carrying a white bag of powder going through TSA.

559
00:41:39,563 --> 00:41:42,422
It's very, very nerve wracking at times.

560
00:41:42,482 --> 00:41:43,262
You have to explain hates.

561
00:41:43,442 --> 00:41:44,623
It's not what you think it is.

562
00:41:44,662 --> 00:41:45,202
It's creatine.

563
00:41:45,262 --> 00:41:46,302
I'm trying to get my swell on.

564
00:41:47,662 --> 00:41:48,802
Make sure you're staying hydrated.

565
00:41:49,643 --> 00:41:51,563
I have become addicted to these.

566
00:41:51,682 --> 00:41:54,682
It's made my life a lot better.

567
00:41:55,082 --> 00:41:59,082
I can supplement this for coffee in the morning and be energized right away.

568
00:41:59,563 --> 00:42:00,363
I can supplement.

569
00:42:00,883 --> 00:42:03,043
I can bring the creatine wherever I need to.

570
00:42:03,043 --> 00:42:11,722
I just put a couple packets in here before I head to the gym, bring this to the gym, drink it out of a glass bottle, make sure I'm not injecting any microplastics into my body.

571
00:42:12,143 --> 00:42:17,802
Go to drinksauté.com, use the code TFTC, and you'll get 15% off anything in the store.

572
00:42:18,002 --> 00:42:20,222
That's drinksauté.com, code TFTC.

573
00:42:20,782 --> 00:42:23,182
What software would you need, like some sort of covenant?

574
00:42:24,422 --> 00:42:25,982
So, yeah, covenants would be great.

575
00:42:27,323 --> 00:42:30,543
I mean, covenants essentially solve everything.

576
00:42:31,102 --> 00:42:32,623
They would make lightning better.

577
00:42:32,623 --> 00:42:34,582
they would make self-custody

578
00:42:34,582 --> 00:42:36,523
better, like we would have reactive instead

579
00:42:36,523 --> 00:42:37,682
of proactive security

580
00:42:37,682 --> 00:42:40,383
again, yeah, I'm like

581
00:42:40,383 --> 00:42:42,602
just fucking ship CTV now, please

582
00:42:42,602 --> 00:42:44,043
or from me, like

583
00:42:44,043 --> 00:42:46,462
CTV just in French, like template hash

584
00:42:46,462 --> 00:42:47,902
like I'm fine with all of these

585
00:42:47,902 --> 00:42:50,063
but like the development and that's like

586
00:42:50,063 --> 00:42:52,523
very slow, it's good

587
00:42:52,523 --> 00:42:53,623
that it's slow I would say

588
00:42:53,623 --> 00:42:56,663
but yeah, I'm

589
00:42:56,663 --> 00:42:58,702
afraid that too many people

590
00:42:58,702 --> 00:43:00,563
say like being one

591
00:43:00,563 --> 00:43:01,502
of them are like

592
00:43:01,502 --> 00:43:07,722
preaching the ossification of bitcoin which in my opinion is way too early like we're not

593
00:43:07,722 --> 00:43:18,143
there yet the uh we have the 20 what is it the uh 2064 bug we need a hard fork at least once

594
00:43:18,143 --> 00:43:24,102
yeah i mean eventually we need to have those like and again like we wasted the entire year of 2025

595
00:43:24,102 --> 00:43:30,442
talking about a fucking nothing burger about like a data carrier size limit increase which is like

596
00:43:30,442 --> 00:43:35,623
There are so many strong economic incentives that this will not be used or abused.

597
00:43:35,962 --> 00:43:39,702
And like all these, whatever, I'm not going to repeat Matt Crater's favorite word now,

598
00:43:39,762 --> 00:43:41,902
but like all these things were like such a distraction.

599
00:43:42,063 --> 00:43:46,063
We could have spent so much more time on actually improving Bitcoin.

600
00:43:46,363 --> 00:43:52,523
And we know there are bugs like BIP54 right now, like it reached also some maturity.

601
00:43:52,702 --> 00:43:58,962
Like two years ago, three years ago, Matt Corralo had like the great consensus cleanup proposal.

602
00:43:58,962 --> 00:44:01,023
and I think Antoine also worked on this now

603
00:44:01,023 --> 00:44:02,823
where we have the inflation

604
00:44:02,823 --> 00:44:03,962
not inflation, but the

605
00:44:03,962 --> 00:44:07,123
time warp bug, like the time warp

606
00:44:07,123 --> 00:44:08,323
attack that a miner can do

607
00:44:08,323 --> 00:44:10,902
that has been fixed on testnet now

608
00:44:10,902 --> 00:44:12,962
this needs to be merged into

609
00:44:12,962 --> 00:44:14,323
Bitcoin, like in Bit54

610
00:44:14,323 --> 00:44:16,922
there's a bunch of known bugs

611
00:44:16,922 --> 00:44:19,102
known critical bugs that can be exploited

612
00:44:19,102 --> 00:44:19,482
now

613
00:44:19,482 --> 00:44:23,023
and we should focus on actually

614
00:44:23,023 --> 00:44:24,702
discussing those instead of

615
00:44:24,702 --> 00:44:26,242
Nuts vs Core or whatever

616
00:44:26,242 --> 00:44:27,343
in my opinion

617
00:44:27,343 --> 00:44:34,002
No, you said CTV development slow, but CTV has been sort of in an end state for years now. It's been tested.

618
00:44:34,002 --> 00:44:52,043
I mean, everybody, like I made this meme, like the Saw guy, welcome to my Saw trap. You're a Bitcoin developer. There's a perfectly fine covenant proposal in front of you. Your challenge is to leave the room and leave it untouched. It's perfectly fine.

619
00:44:52,043 --> 00:44:56,823
and like everybody comes along oh let's have tx hash it doesn't do enough let's do

620
00:44:56,823 --> 00:45:03,163
check stick from stack two and this and like let's put a template hash like there's so many

621
00:45:03,163 --> 00:45:08,962
like it's the engineering disease like ctv is good enough it has been around i think like 10 years now

622
00:45:08,962 --> 00:45:15,402
2015 or so um there's a big bounty nobody has come up with any way to exploit it

623
00:45:15,402 --> 00:45:24,702
it is safe it will improve bitcoin dramatically um yeah i i don't know how you could be opposed

624
00:45:24,702 --> 00:45:29,523
to to this kind of thing well make the sell you mentioned reactive versus proactive

625
00:45:29,523 --> 00:45:36,442
sort of defense and security what how would you describe those and why would you argue that

626
00:45:36,442 --> 00:45:44,163
reactive is preferable so right now the way bitcoin works we have coins utxos so if you

627
00:45:44,163 --> 00:45:51,323
have a big UTXO and you spend it, you risk all of your wealth and hope that 99% comes back at the

628
00:45:51,323 --> 00:45:57,663
change output, which is a crazy design if you think about it. It's not like Ethereum is account

629
00:45:57,663 --> 00:46:02,282
based. You have a number and it goes up and down, but Bitcoin is UTXO based. And every time you

630
00:46:02,282 --> 00:46:07,462
spend something, you risk your entire, you dump out your entire bucket of gold and hope that the

631
00:46:07,462 --> 00:46:12,982
UTXO comes back. And we make sure, like hardware signers check that the change output has not been

632
00:46:12,982 --> 00:46:18,823
10 byd with it there's no like um yeah there's some kind of attack that replaces the change output

633
00:46:18,823 --> 00:46:25,682
um and with all the security premise that we right now have like i make my living selling

634
00:46:25,682 --> 00:46:32,422
steel wallets like you emboss your 1224 words into steel and that is your backup that you need

635
00:46:32,422 --> 00:46:37,002
if your hardware center fails you go back to this and you can recover everything but what if somebody

636
00:46:37,002 --> 00:46:42,143
else finds it he has access to all of your bitcoin like that is like a single point of failure

637
00:46:42,143 --> 00:46:49,123
and with a covenant you can define this is my vault i put my bitcoin in here i can define

638
00:46:49,123 --> 00:46:54,883
something like velocity meaning i can only spend this much of my bitcoin per day even if there is

639
00:46:54,883 --> 00:47:01,442
a breach like the the thief cannot steal all of the funds or i can define this is my my vault and

640
00:47:01,442 --> 00:47:06,563
from here i can only spend to this known address where like a hot wallet with like kraken or like

641
00:47:06,563 --> 00:47:12,082
another address that is also like secure there's an intermediate step and if i spend to any other

642
00:47:12,082 --> 00:47:17,123
address um i have this big red button that i can push and that will claw back the transaction

643
00:47:17,123 --> 00:47:23,762
and will send it to like another like 24 words hammered on steel like hidden underneath a tree

644
00:47:23,762 --> 00:47:29,363
or somewhere like you have these options where you see okay somebody's happening and i have an undo

645
00:47:29,363 --> 00:47:34,722
option now or i can limit the amount of bitcoin that i can spend and all of these things if i like

646
00:47:36,163 --> 00:47:39,922
point them out everybody yeah i want that like everybody tells me yeah this sounds great

647
00:47:39,922 --> 00:47:57,462
I want that. How do we achieve this? And we jump through a lot of hoops right now with like these decaying multi-sigs with mini-script. Just having a covenant would make this much easier, much smaller, and yeah, the Yerks much better.

648
00:47:57,462 --> 00:48:01,523
I've always been partial to James O'Byrne's framing of it

649
00:48:01,523 --> 00:48:04,123
obviously he had OpVault which looked at CTV

650
00:48:04,123 --> 00:48:07,702
it was like okay if people are afraid of

651
00:48:07,702 --> 00:48:10,922
check template verify because they think it's going to bring too much

652
00:48:10,922 --> 00:48:14,323
let's just focus on the vaulting aspect and bring it to Bitcoin

653
00:48:14,323 --> 00:48:17,323
and make it so that his framing was

654
00:48:17,323 --> 00:48:19,742
make it so exchanges can never get hacked again

655
00:48:19,742 --> 00:48:21,282
and I think that's

656
00:48:21,282 --> 00:48:26,102
if that's exactly what it does or that's one of the products

657
00:48:26,102 --> 00:48:30,802
of implementing something like OpVault is you have the potential to create these

658
00:48:30,802 --> 00:48:38,143
transaction structures that make it very hard to get hacked or not to get hacked but to lose

659
00:48:38,143 --> 00:48:45,323
Bitcoin after getting hacked. That seems like something that is very obvious like we should

660
00:48:45,323 --> 00:48:52,163
all want that but we have this social aspect of Bitcoin development that throws a wrench in that

661
00:48:52,163 --> 00:48:58,183
which is good it's a it's a double-edged sword you want that sort of rough consensus um gridlock

662
00:48:58,183 --> 00:49:02,982
what is that exist what is it what is rough consensus that's a great question i think we're

663
00:49:02,982 --> 00:49:06,623
still trying to figure it out i think it depends on what you're trying to get into bitcoin right

664
00:49:06,623 --> 00:49:13,102
rough consensus is if all the graybeards are agreed and then the

665
00:49:13,102 --> 00:49:17,222
plebslog podcasters are also on board then that is rough

666
00:49:17,222 --> 00:49:21,982
well let's dive into that like how do you view it

667
00:49:22,163 --> 00:49:30,143
as a pleb slop podcaster that has deferred to the great beards in the past

668
00:49:30,143 --> 00:49:37,882
what else am i supposed to do that's that's the million dollar question like i would so i see it

669
00:49:37,882 --> 00:49:45,422
as my um relative to like educate as many people and have this like uh not astroturf like what is

670
00:49:45,422 --> 00:49:51,563
the grassroots like people want this and people institutions want this and if there's enough

671
00:49:51,563 --> 00:50:01,123
yeah incentive from a monetary perspective um people again you vote by having bitcoin like if

672
00:50:01,123 --> 00:50:07,742
you are an economic player in this you can you can vote and be vocal about it um and then we can

673
00:50:07,742 --> 00:50:15,543
achieve like another soft fork i think um but for that we need proper codes proper tests benchmarks

674
00:50:15,543 --> 00:50:23,543
fuzzing and a lot of check boxes need to be ticked uh and the problem with bitcoin is that every four

675
00:50:23,543 --> 00:50:28,823
years we have this big halving event a lot of new people come in and if we talk for four years

676
00:50:29,782 --> 00:50:35,063
more new people come in and they say bitcoin is perfect and then we just start from a new

677
00:50:35,063 --> 00:50:40,663
so i think um yeah to to achieve another soft thought we need to figure out a way to

678
00:50:40,663 --> 00:50:45,523
to get everybody on board in like one to two years to signal for something.

679
00:50:47,382 --> 00:50:50,442
But yeah, I'm kind of bearish on that.

680
00:50:51,882 --> 00:50:52,802
I am too.

681
00:50:53,942 --> 00:50:59,343
I mean, I'm also an advocate for covenants.

682
00:50:59,462 --> 00:51:02,602
I know some people may find that blasphemous,

683
00:51:02,663 --> 00:51:05,043
but I think having been around for a while

684
00:51:05,043 --> 00:51:10,082
and understanding that reactive versus proactive sort of security posture,

685
00:51:10,082 --> 00:51:11,882
that you just described.

686
00:51:12,123 --> 00:51:15,722
I mean, I think that's objectively preferable in my mind.

687
00:51:15,802 --> 00:51:20,442
And I think there's a lot of people who look at the magnitude of the changes

688
00:51:20,442 --> 00:51:24,023
that came with SegWit and Taproot, and they have shell shock

689
00:51:24,023 --> 00:51:29,222
or post-traumatic stress syndrome from the unintended consequences

690
00:51:29,222 --> 00:51:34,102
of those upgrades, and they assume that something similar may happen

691
00:51:34,102 --> 00:51:38,102
with any other future software, whether it be CTV, CAT, whatever it may be,

692
00:51:38,102 --> 00:51:44,183
which is not to say there isn't any unintended consequences that may arise but i think

693
00:51:44,183 --> 00:51:50,762
people do not appreciate how relatively small of a change something like ctv is to segwit or

694
00:51:50,762 --> 00:51:56,643
taproot yeah then again like block size increase is like three lines of code and like one parameter

695
00:51:56,643 --> 00:52:03,742
so that is never a good uh indicator oh it's just a teeny tiny bit of code um but yeah like

696
00:52:03,742 --> 00:52:05,683
the unintended consequences

697
00:52:05,683 --> 00:52:07,742
I hear this a lot and to quote my

698
00:52:07,742 --> 00:52:09,523
favorite shitcoiner Jameson Lopp

699
00:52:09,523 --> 00:52:13,442
like the unintended consequences

700
00:52:13,442 --> 00:52:15,043
are not quantifiable

701
00:52:15,043 --> 00:52:17,462
if you do it and

702
00:52:17,462 --> 00:52:19,663
also they are not quantifiable if you

703
00:52:19,663 --> 00:52:21,643
don't do it like we don't know if

704
00:52:21,643 --> 00:52:23,742
you don't do this upgrade maybe Bitcoin like

705
00:52:23,742 --> 00:52:25,683
apathy will kill it or

706
00:52:25,683 --> 00:52:27,643
like people will move

707
00:52:27,643 --> 00:52:29,643
on to other things and

708
00:52:29,643 --> 00:52:31,702
therefore because you can't quantify both of them

709
00:52:31,702 --> 00:52:33,262
like they even help so

710
00:52:33,262 --> 00:52:40,442
unintended consequences always exist um and that's why we move slowly and have a lot of

711
00:52:40,442 --> 00:52:48,222
eyes on there so that like they are not uh yeah large large mistakes being forked into bitcoin

712
00:52:48,222 --> 00:52:57,323
that's why i'm also like not uh all too keen on having a a quantum uh fork i bet is now with some

713
00:52:57,323 --> 00:52:58,802
non-hardened

714
00:52:58,802 --> 00:53:01,643
quantum, post-quantum

715
00:53:01,643 --> 00:53:03,202
algorithms or whatever.

716
00:53:03,942 --> 00:53:05,582
We need to take time

717
00:53:05,582 --> 00:53:07,282
and we need to improve it because

718
00:53:07,282 --> 00:53:09,163
there will be a lot of tech that if you now

719
00:53:09,163 --> 00:53:11,462
introduce a new post-quantum scheme

720
00:53:11,462 --> 00:53:13,422
that is way too heavy

721
00:53:13,422 --> 00:53:14,823
and way too difficult to verify.

722
00:53:16,082 --> 00:53:16,563
So, yeah.

723
00:53:16,863 --> 00:53:19,343
I just had Jonas, Nick,

724
00:53:19,482 --> 00:53:21,302
and Mikhail Kudnav on to talk about

725
00:53:21,302 --> 00:53:22,123
their hash-based

726
00:53:22,123 --> 00:53:24,782
signatures,

727
00:53:25,262 --> 00:53:26,863
their research paper. It shrinks.

728
00:53:27,323 --> 00:53:27,543
Yeah.

729
00:53:28,043 --> 00:53:31,742
And I don't think people understand or appreciate

730
00:53:31,742 --> 00:53:32,863
like how much you need,

731
00:53:32,942 --> 00:53:34,623
like you're going to need to overhaul

732
00:53:34,623 --> 00:53:36,363
every wallet software that exists.

733
00:53:36,742 --> 00:53:38,183
Like, cause...

734
00:53:38,183 --> 00:53:38,382
Yeah.

735
00:53:38,742 --> 00:53:40,762
Like, standards like PSBT,

736
00:53:41,043 --> 00:53:41,902
you're going to have to change.

737
00:53:42,082 --> 00:53:43,702
It's not like...

738
00:53:43,728 --> 00:53:48,948
uh it's not like you just get quantum resistant addresses you can use everything that's existed

739
00:53:48,948 --> 00:53:55,268
before and that was the most disheartening thing about the narrative and the the uh main character

740
00:53:55,268 --> 00:54:00,648
syndrome sort of forcing itself into the conversation it's just like nobody's talking

741
00:54:00,648 --> 00:54:07,348
about this it's like we've been talking about it for years yes like steve lee had an entire

742
00:54:07,348 --> 00:54:14,628
conference and invited you and you didn't come um because i mean if the rush to upgrade is

743
00:54:14,628 --> 00:54:21,708
i would argue riskier than um being slow uh because who like you mentioned earlier like

744
00:54:21,708 --> 00:54:25,528
who knows when quantum is actually going to manifest and you can really there are so many

745
00:54:25,528 --> 00:54:31,248
there's so many canaries that will drop before like ecdsa is threatened like

746
00:54:31,248 --> 00:54:37,548
again we know with the snowden leagues the nsa is working on quantum computers for quite some time

747
00:54:37,548 --> 00:54:44,588
and you can't assume that not everything will be out in the public not every achievement but with

748
00:54:44,588 --> 00:54:50,188
all these other companies these these private companies like google and sciquantum and like

749
00:54:50,188 --> 00:54:56,408
microsoft and like this small ion q like as soon as they factor like a larger number and they need

750
00:54:56,408 --> 00:55:00,668
like a bridge loan from a vc they would come back and like look look what we did like they will

751
00:55:00,668 --> 00:55:08,648
they will telegraph like their advances so i'm just taking my lap here um and like we have more

752
00:55:08,648 --> 00:55:13,808
than a decade at least and in that time again journalists like uh and then tim ruffing they

753
00:55:13,808 --> 00:55:19,928
they improved on the post-quantum algorithms that the national institute of standardization

754
00:55:19,928 --> 00:55:25,368
and technology suggested and said like yeah we have these i think they call sphinx algorithms and

755
00:55:25,368 --> 00:55:29,488
then they said hey we take this out and we can shrink them make them smaller they're still way

756
00:55:29,488 --> 00:55:35,468
too large to to have like proper throughput in a block but you see there is steady progress and

757
00:55:35,468 --> 00:55:39,488
then there's like lara scheichelman like a lot of other like really smart people that are not vcs

758
00:55:39,488 --> 00:55:46,428
are working on it give them some time and do not distract them with like bullshit discussions

759
00:55:46,428 --> 00:55:52,948
yeah so i mean that was the uh the illuminating thing from my conversation with jonas and mikhail

760
00:55:52,948 --> 00:55:59,248
just like the wallet like particularly if you have low power relatively low power hardware wallets

761
00:55:59,248 --> 00:56:03,008
like the amount of time it's going to take to sign those signatures is going to be

762
00:56:03,808 --> 00:56:07,888
um significantly longer than it takes today and if you've ever done something like a dlc

763
00:56:08,848 --> 00:56:13,968
um even on a mobile wallet you know the signature sort of rounds for that take a minute up to two

764
00:56:13,968 --> 00:56:19,008
minutes sometimes yeah i mean like a multi-state with like 50 cosigners or something like you can

765
00:56:19,008 --> 00:56:25,168
test it like you realize uh i mean mvk is is not cheap it's like a security that's the design

766
00:56:25,168 --> 00:56:29,648
decision to not have like a fully functioning computer in there you could add more oomph into

767
00:56:29,648 --> 00:56:34,928
this of course but like you want to have its purpose built and now it's purpose built for

768
00:56:34,928 --> 00:56:41,728
that but for post-quantum like we have to change like mining qr codes wallets like nodes like

769
00:56:41,728 --> 00:56:46,448
there's a ton and ton of things and we need upgrade hooks so like everybody's on board and like

770
00:56:46,448 --> 00:56:52,048
nothing breaks um it's these things where you realize yeah a decentralized system has a lot

771
00:56:52,048 --> 00:56:57,888
of advantages but also a lot of disadvantages if you want to like move into one direction quickly

772
00:56:57,888 --> 00:57:03,248
like a bank can do key rotation a bank can easily become post-quantum and like not a weekend maybe

773
00:57:03,248 --> 00:57:09,168
but like it's possible with a centralized exchange with bitcoin there will be like uh yeah

774
00:57:10,688 --> 00:57:16,208
a two-year process software has been built up over some projects more than a decade and they're

775
00:57:16,208 --> 00:57:21,568
literally gonna have to just throw out all the uh throughout the engine essentially and rebuild

776
00:57:21,568 --> 00:57:30,368
from scratch yeah i mean jonas and like they're working on on the sccp256k1 library like lipsecp

777
00:57:30,928 --> 00:57:42,768
yeah uh that is uh the the yeah central part of like every like note and wallet and that's

778
00:57:43,488 --> 00:57:48,288
i think is an amazing work and like a lot of a lot of people don't know this and they don't know

779
00:57:48,288 --> 00:57:53,208
know about like who jonas nick is i think i'm always like amazed that like these are the people

780
00:57:53,208 --> 00:57:57,928
that keep like a low profile and these are the actual builders and not the people that are the

781
00:57:57,928 --> 00:58:02,648
loudest on twitter i was very uh very impressed with him i think it was the first time we've

782
00:58:02,648 --> 00:58:06,648
definitely the first time we recorded i'm pretty sure it's the first time we ever met too but he's

783
00:58:06,648 --> 00:58:12,788
like he can explain things very easily he is very personable um you can tell he cares deeply about

784
00:58:12,788 --> 00:58:19,608
this and understands the uh the third or second third order effects of these changes that people

785
00:58:19,608 --> 00:58:28,548
are flippantly trying to uh rush uh bitcoiners into yeah i mean so in germany we have a bitcoin

786
00:58:28,548 --> 00:58:32,828
community and they recently made uh how do you say it because i've had i've had people

787
00:58:32,828 --> 00:58:41,868
um on rhr rabbit hole recap i've had people zap us and uh pump the uh the german speaking bitcoin

788
00:58:41,868 --> 00:58:52,828
podcast how do you say it i don't 20 i i in swanzig means 21 like i is one and 20 is 20

789
00:58:52,828 --> 00:59:01,608
i and i and swanzig okay i don't you can just say 21 people will know

790
00:59:01,608 --> 00:59:08,188
but yeah like we have this community and an artist made like a trading card game and made

791
00:59:08,188 --> 00:59:13,928
like 21 like bitcoin personalities and for some reason i'm one of those which is like undeserved

792
00:59:13,928 --> 00:59:19,288
but like jonas nick has one christian decker has one a lot of people like gg has one and i think

793
00:59:19,288 --> 00:59:27,168
it's like these are the the actual people doing stuff um again not vcs not mechanics on twitter

794
00:59:27,168 --> 00:59:36,208
yeah mechanics on twitter um what uh what else should we cover here what are you what are you

795
00:59:36,208 --> 00:59:41,228
looking forward to in 2026 what do you think the priority should be so i haven't made my prediction

796
00:59:41,228 --> 00:59:47,608
list yet but i really really want i don't have my hat in reaching distance right now i want to

797
00:59:47,608 --> 01:00:07,788
see like a pardon or clemency for kian and bill um like yeah uh i actually like again kian like celebrated christmas and then i saw like i mean he must be happy to go into prison because the last two days before he had to be arraigned he was arguing with Mechanic

798
01:00:07,788 --> 01:00:08,788
on Twitter.

799
01:00:08,788 --> 01:00:10,728
I mean, this can't be it.

800
01:00:10,728 --> 01:00:18,348
The last days in freedom, he has to argue with people on Twitter and justify things.

801
01:00:18,348 --> 01:00:19,728
Oh, a Nazi's on your side.

802
01:00:19,728 --> 01:00:20,948
Shut the fuck up.

803
01:00:20,948 --> 01:00:34,768
I want Donald Trump to be cool and send a message that writing code, even if it is abused by criminals, is not a crime.

804
01:00:35,128 --> 01:00:37,628
You're not responsible if you write privacy software.

805
01:00:37,788 --> 01:00:42,568
You're not responsible if people abuse technology.

806
01:00:43,388 --> 01:00:45,748
That's my only wish for 2026.

807
01:00:45,748 --> 01:00:46,908
The rest, I don't know.

808
01:00:47,308 --> 01:00:50,428
Bitcoin can go down to 30,000 and shake on all the treasury companies.

809
01:00:50,948 --> 01:00:52,468
I'm fine with that.

810
01:00:52,868 --> 01:00:59,708
But I really want to see Trump doing another solid similar to Ross.

811
01:01:00,908 --> 01:01:12,248
Do you think the onus is on the industry in the United States to preserve, from a legal perspective, I guess, preserve the ability to use Bitcoin?

812
01:01:12,748 --> 01:01:14,268
It doesn't seem good in Europe right now.

813
01:01:14,268 --> 01:01:21,208
i mean so i have to say the the laws around bitcoin in germany are better than in the united

814
01:01:21,208 --> 01:01:28,168
states uh but that is i think purely purely by accident so uh whereas uh you will always be

815
01:01:28,168 --> 01:01:34,168
tax liable in the event of you like selling or using bitcoin in germany uh if i hold it for one

816
01:01:34,168 --> 01:01:38,928
year i'm free there's no capital gains i can just spend it and that is like really really nice and

817
01:01:38,928 --> 01:01:41,268
you have a right to

818
01:01:41,268 --> 01:01:42,268
your privacy.

819
01:01:43,328 --> 01:01:44,988
I'm fine with that, but that is

820
01:01:44,988 --> 01:01:47,368
born not on purpose.

821
01:01:47,488 --> 01:01:48,628
I think it was done on accident.

822
01:01:49,728 --> 01:01:50,908
They're talking about

823
01:01:50,908 --> 01:01:52,728
let's get rid of this.

824
01:01:53,268 --> 01:01:55,488
People are speculating and making money on that

825
01:01:55,488 --> 01:01:57,588
and we need a cut and they want to remove

826
01:01:57,588 --> 01:01:59,308
this one. You're holding limits

827
01:01:59,308 --> 01:02:01,308
and maybe even backdated.

828
01:02:02,628 --> 01:02:03,708
I agree.

829
01:02:03,868 --> 01:02:05,588
It is good

830
01:02:05,588 --> 01:02:06,268
to have

831
01:02:06,268 --> 01:02:07,888
people

832
01:02:07,888 --> 01:02:09,988
in the White House

833
01:02:09,988 --> 01:02:12,828
I mean I wish they were more pure

834
01:02:12,828 --> 01:02:14,548
I wish they wouldn't do

835
01:02:14,548 --> 01:02:16,988
so many crypto scams on the side

836
01:02:16,988 --> 01:02:18,488
but

837
01:02:18,488 --> 01:02:20,928
as long as

838
01:02:20,928 --> 01:02:22,128
the United States

839
01:02:22,128 --> 01:02:24,328
allows

840
01:02:24,328 --> 01:02:25,888
for Bitcoin to thrive

841
01:02:25,888 --> 01:02:28,168
game theories at play other nations

842
01:02:28,168 --> 01:02:30,228
will not forbid it

843
01:02:30,228 --> 01:02:31,588
and that is again

844
01:02:31,588 --> 01:02:34,748
yeah America can be a shining light

845
01:02:34,748 --> 01:02:35,408
and

846
01:02:35,408 --> 01:02:42,328
other than that yeah now it is this weird uh weird transitionary period at least from my

847
01:02:42,328 --> 01:02:47,188
perspective that we're in we're getting the suits the big guys the nation states are coming and it's

848
01:02:47,188 --> 01:02:51,148
like oh what are you gonna do with bitcoin and going back to the conversation like softworks

849
01:02:51,148 --> 01:02:58,968
covenants specifically if nation states do step in in size in the next few years like will softworks

850
01:02:58,968 --> 01:03:06,888
be impossible i think yeah i mean i have this article and i think shinobi has never published

851
01:03:06,888 --> 01:03:13,948
it um why nation states uh need covenants or rather people living in nation states that have

852
01:03:13,948 --> 01:03:20,228
adopted bitcoin need covenants because one of the key advantages of gold is that you cannot take a

853
01:03:20,228 --> 01:03:25,908
pallet of gold onto a helicopter when you flee the south american country whereas if you amass

854
01:03:25,908 --> 01:03:33,988
your bitcoin uh of the money that you take out of uh your your population um that is very easy to

855
01:03:33,988 --> 01:03:39,148
take with you if you if you flee uh to i don't know i mean it has happened that some kind of

856
01:03:39,148 --> 01:03:45,768
dictator has rugged a population and stolen money um by like transferring it in a swiss bank account

857
01:03:45,768 --> 01:03:51,648
um bitcoin makes it so much more easy and there you could have a proper like covenant where like

858
01:03:51,648 --> 01:03:59,348
okay as long as you're in power you get to sign uh if you um yeah get voted out uh your your key

859
01:03:59,348 --> 01:04:05,448
will be rotated out and yeah i've written an article about like we need covenants for nation

860
01:04:05,448 --> 01:04:10,928
state adopting too like the next article needs to be like we need covenants to prevent quantum

861
01:04:10,928 --> 01:04:17,548
like we need to attach it somehow uh to to fork in covenants i think well i think you're uh you're

862
01:04:17,548 --> 01:04:22,568
touching on something that i think is very important and something that bitcoiners really

863
01:04:22,568 --> 01:04:26,868
need to get better at is framing these things i think of one thing that i'm passionate about and

864
01:04:26,868 --> 01:04:33,988
would love to see is pay join get implemented widely particularly with large exchanges and

865
01:04:33,988 --> 01:04:41,388
um i know a lot of the exchanges outside of bull bitcoin um shy away from it because they're like

866
01:04:41,388 --> 01:04:46,648
oh well like the privacy thing is too much it's like no you just frame it as transaction batching

867
01:04:46,648 --> 01:04:51,928
we need to save shareholder capital by being more efficient when we spend bitcoin on chain when we're

868
01:04:54,168 --> 01:05:01,928
to to our users um yeah not only that framing is very important yeah yeah like like tip 77 like i

869
01:05:01,928 --> 01:05:07,208
mean the bull bitcoin integration is great um who was it um there was an article with the

870
01:05:07,208 --> 01:05:13,048
bitcoin policy institute gerald gerald gerald glickman wrote something and it was really like

871
01:05:13,048 --> 01:05:21,528
an interesting spin on that where he's saying exchanges should be mandatory coin joining and

872
01:05:21,528 --> 01:05:28,008
obfuscating funds because you have a from a banking law perspective you will have to have a

873
01:05:29,128 --> 01:05:36,808
certain level of privacy you are mandated as a bank to have private customer funds and with bitcoin

874
01:05:36,808 --> 01:05:42,808
currently they like grossly reusing addresses and like they not doing these things and he had like

875
01:05:42,808 --> 01:05:47,848
a very interesting article a couple years ago like four years ago so i need to find it i'll

876
01:05:47,848 --> 01:05:55,128
send it to you um where he's like arguing exchanges need to coin join by law yeah

877
01:05:57,768 --> 01:06:03,288
it's just this aversion to private i mean i know why the large governments of the world don't like

878
01:06:03,288 --> 01:06:21,548
privacy because they are losing control of many aspects of uh their ability to rule as they print rent more money go into more debt and begin to lose the narrative in the realm of the social But I think that the most disheartening thing

879
01:06:21,548 --> 01:06:24,548
is we have the potential, like I said earlier,

880
01:06:25,368 --> 01:06:27,288
especially with these second-layer protocols maturing

881
01:06:27,288 --> 01:06:32,168
to build a completely new banking stack on top of the Bitcoin protocol.

882
01:06:32,168 --> 01:06:34,428
And it's desperately needed in this day and age.

883
01:06:34,568 --> 01:06:37,608
I think the banking infrastructure is completely antiquated

884
01:06:37,608 --> 01:06:39,408
and not suit for purpose.

885
01:06:39,488 --> 01:06:46,028
in the digital age and for some reason or another i think mainly because they worry about losing

886
01:06:46,028 --> 01:06:51,568
control or being hindered from actually building out this sci-fi banking stack

887
01:06:51,568 --> 01:06:58,668
i just dropped off i'm back sorry yeah just you cut you cut out a little earlier

888
01:06:58,668 --> 01:07:05,508
the when you're giving your whole coin join spiel i only caught the tail end but uh luckily all this

889
01:07:05,508 --> 01:07:15,668
is being recorded uh recorded locally so it'll look good in post yeah so um yeah coin joining

890
01:07:15,668 --> 01:07:23,868
the ux is great another thing that would improve it is sisa like a signature aggregation um has

891
01:07:23,868 --> 01:07:30,068
been discussed for quite some time uh um if we implemented that i think greg ross said it would

892
01:07:30,068 --> 01:07:38,868
be cheaper than a regular transaction to do coin joints with visor or cisa that was funny like going

893
01:07:38,868 --> 01:07:43,568
back to the quantum thing too it's like how much of this stuff are we going to focus on and then

894
01:07:43,568 --> 01:07:47,988
it's like oh we have to do quantum resistant addresses that completely i don't know if you

895
01:07:47,988 --> 01:07:53,788
could do cisa with quantum resistant addresses but if you could that would make more sense too

896
01:07:53,788 --> 01:08:03,768
yeah we need a bitcoin pr department to to spin these things that is yeah

897
01:08:03,768 --> 01:08:11,468
who should do that i mean i don't know if you're being facetious there but i think uh

898
01:08:11,468 --> 01:08:18,448
these things do need to be uh articulated to the broader market in better ways

899
01:08:18,448 --> 01:08:25,408
yeah it's it's oftentimes you see uh very smart bright developers we need

900
01:08:25,408 --> 01:08:35,808
all to translation services for for bitcoin yeah we need uh autism to adiq translation services um

901
01:08:35,808 --> 01:08:41,368
yeah more and better communications also like a learning from 2025

902
01:08:41,368 --> 01:08:47,968
if communication can be improved lots of trauma can be avoided

903
01:08:48,448 --> 01:08:50,508
Yeah, there was a lot of drama in 2025.

904
01:08:50,848 --> 01:08:55,388
Here's the hoping that there's a bear market in drama in 2026,

905
01:08:55,528 --> 01:08:56,988
but I won't be holding my breath for that.

906
01:08:57,988 --> 01:09:00,208
I guarantee you there will be more.

907
01:09:01,588 --> 01:09:06,768
I'm really, really bullish on drama and trauma.

908
01:09:08,908 --> 01:09:11,968
What are your hopes for 2026?

909
01:09:11,968 --> 01:09:20,968
um selfishly i hope that uh that bitcoin collateralized residential mortgages become

910
01:09:20,968 --> 01:09:27,588
a thing here in the united states i think that would be massive but uh okay i think uh no i mean

911
01:09:27,588 --> 01:09:33,188
it was a big theme in 2025 i wrote about it talked about a lot but again

912
01:09:33,188 --> 01:09:39,888
as you may be able to tell i think this emergence of these interoperable second layer

913
01:09:39,888 --> 01:09:47,368
protocols is really powerful and fascinating to me and i guess my hope for 2026 is

914
01:09:47,368 --> 01:09:54,748
instead of quabbling about different protocol changes getting distracted by

915
01:09:54,748 --> 01:10:02,768
op return or quantum resistance let's begin people begin focusing on like okay how can we leverage

916
01:10:02,768 --> 01:10:04,848
these second layers to create

917
01:10:04,848 --> 01:10:07,088
more extendable

918
01:10:07,088 --> 01:10:09,268
Bitcoin user experiences and build

919
01:10:09,268 --> 01:10:10,788
cooler

920
01:10:10,788 --> 01:10:13,268
end products at the end of the day

921
01:10:13,268 --> 01:10:15,308
that make Bitcoin more useful for

922
01:10:15,308 --> 01:10:16,248
individuals

923
01:10:16,248 --> 01:10:19,148
Are you bullish on Citria?

924
01:10:23,248 --> 01:10:25,528
I mean

925
01:10:25,528 --> 01:10:27,388
am I going to use

926
01:10:27,388 --> 01:10:28,788
Citria? Probably not

927
01:10:28,788 --> 01:10:36,548
i mean as soon as there will be a polymarket calci prediction market type

928
01:10:36,548 --> 01:10:41,088
on bitcoin and i think like with citrea you can build something like this

929
01:10:41,088 --> 01:10:47,748
i think that will be a very big inflow into bitcoin um and there will be a lot of you know

930
01:10:47,748 --> 01:10:52,708
prediction markets not only funded by rob hamilton but like actual prediction markets like

931
01:10:52,708 --> 01:10:58,608
do too yeah well like what's wrong with something like predicts right do you need to do all that

932
01:10:58,608 --> 01:11:07,728
predicts is like custodial yeah and with like in evm type of layer 2 which i'm always very

933
01:11:07,728 --> 01:11:13,848
impressed like robin linus is a close friend of mine um and i really like appreciate what what

934
01:11:13,848 --> 01:11:21,628
they are building there um like alpham and citrea and like all these things that i i didn't think

935
01:11:21,628 --> 01:11:27,228
were possible to build on bitcoin without any changes to to the code um i think it's very

936
01:11:27,228 --> 01:11:33,428
cypherpunk i again i i'm not interested in any sdr whatever virtual machine um but

937
01:11:33,428 --> 01:11:41,308
yeah prediction markets uh i'm very surprised how big they have become and these things

938
01:11:41,308 --> 01:11:49,108
yeah i think that they will come this year are you surprised why are you surprised it was

939
01:11:49,108 --> 01:11:53,308
predicted that prediction markets would become a thing this is uh it's a long awaited

940
01:11:53,308 --> 01:11:59,948
there's this great quote by michael say like i think in 2018 where he's like denigrating bitcoin

941
01:11:59,948 --> 01:12:05,768
says like oh bitcoin is a fad it will have the same future as um online gambling and online

942
01:12:05,768 --> 01:12:12,548
gambling is bigger than ever as is bitcoin like he's right on the money he took the wrong under

943
01:12:12,548 --> 01:12:22,348
on that bet um i'm i'm not a like yeah i played the tone race poker tournament uh poorly um and

944
01:12:22,348 --> 01:12:37,388
i not really into gambling but uh i see what like it a very nice way of um finding truth because if people put their money where their mouth is like I trust those polls more than like a general Twitter poll let say

945
01:12:37,808 --> 01:12:38,008
Agreed.

946
01:12:38,188 --> 01:12:44,888
And that's what it was actually, I'm not sure if you saw it, but Brian Armstrong came out, I believe it was yesterday or the day before.

947
01:12:45,408 --> 01:12:49,328
And people were saying like, hey, you guys just recreated gambling.

948
01:12:49,448 --> 01:12:52,468
And obviously, yes, to an extent, some of these prediction markets are gambling.

949
01:12:52,468 --> 01:13:03,348
But he acknowledged, like, hey, this is actually a way to discover truth faster because you have insiders who are financially motivated to leak information playing on these prediction markets.

950
01:13:03,388 --> 01:13:04,968
And we've seen that come true.

951
01:13:05,048 --> 01:13:11,648
And you have a bunch of people saying, oh, my God, this is terrible.

952
01:13:11,788 --> 01:13:13,688
We don't like insider trading in traditional markets.

953
01:13:13,688 --> 01:13:19,528
and it's like it's true like i don't like when politicians insider trade off of information um

954
01:13:19,528 --> 01:13:26,308
that they they glean from subcommittee meetings that are not public um but i think this is

955
01:13:26,308 --> 01:13:33,028
different i think the dynamics is it more that you don't want them to have it or is it more that you

956
01:13:33,028 --> 01:13:39,008
would be fine if everybody could do it exactly because i feel like yeah in a free market like

957
01:13:39,008 --> 01:13:44,608
again there is no such thing as like insider trading like and it truly truly like doesn't

958
01:13:44,608 --> 01:13:49,808
exist anywhere in the world but like in a truly free market i think yeah instead of trading is

959
01:13:49,808 --> 01:13:55,888
just called trading yeah i think you articulate it very well my thoughts on it it's like as long

960
01:13:55,888 --> 01:14:02,448
as everybody can do it um it should be beneficial and like you saw it with uh over the weekend with

961
01:14:02,448 --> 01:14:06,928
maduro there was an insider who hopped on the poly market fat trade and made a bunch of money

962
01:14:06,928 --> 01:14:13,808
i was looking in my in my signal chat whether or not i was invited to the pete hexath maduro

963
01:14:13,808 --> 01:14:14,568
signal

964
01:14:14,568 --> 01:14:26,168
what would you say if you if you hopped in that group chat i mean i would like would be a fly on

965
01:14:26,168 --> 01:14:32,308
the wall and then i would uh put a outsized bet and then i would do the dennis porter style huge

966
01:14:32,308 --> 01:14:39,028
breaking as soon as we have like internal confirmation like that the ego has landed

967
01:14:39,028 --> 01:14:44,488
or something i don't know i would i would monetize it i i think i agree with you i think prediction

968
01:14:44,488 --> 01:14:50,368
market's going to be continue to grow whether or not they manifest on bitcoin i think i would not

969
01:14:50,368 --> 01:14:56,228
i mean i think they should manifest on bitcoin and i think ultimately they will but i i think

970
01:14:56,228 --> 01:15:01,528
more broadly people don't understand still don't grasp the profundity of what's happening right now

971
01:15:01,528 --> 01:15:05,208
and don't grasp how this is going to change the world like right now we're seeing it

972
01:15:05,928 --> 01:15:14,088
in dinks and dunks like one-off events but once that hits scale and the people are conditioned

973
01:15:14,088 --> 01:15:22,568
to go to prediction markets to make bets about certain events with particularly insiders with

974
01:15:22,568 --> 01:15:27,688
knowledge of these events it's going to really change the dynamics of how information flows and

975
01:15:27,688 --> 01:15:37,848
how the world actually operates yeah i mean one of my favorite stories um i'm not sure if i'm

976
01:15:37,848 --> 01:15:43,808
supposed to share this but i'm gonna do it anyways uh like you remember the uh electric uh money

977
01:15:43,808 --> 01:15:50,348
um documentary about who satoshi like hbr this documentary like two or three years ago peter

978
01:15:50,348 --> 01:15:52,428
Todd. And everybody

979
01:15:52,428 --> 01:15:54,228
says, oh, it's Adam Beck, it's

980
01:15:54,228 --> 01:15:55,348
Hal Finney, it's

981
01:15:55,348 --> 01:15:58,248
Lanzazeman, and there was

982
01:15:58,248 --> 01:15:59,928
a Polymarkis, and

983
01:15:59,928 --> 01:16:02,128
there was one very outsized

984
01:16:02,128 --> 01:16:03,168
bet on Peter Todd.

985
01:16:03,988 --> 01:16:05,968
And with documentaries that have been

986
01:16:05,968 --> 01:16:08,248
recorded months in advance,

987
01:16:08,568 --> 01:16:10,148
people that have been part of this

988
01:16:10,148 --> 01:16:10,768
documentary

989
01:16:10,768 --> 01:16:14,088
had some insider knowledge.

990
01:16:14,948 --> 01:16:15,928
And yeah, some people

991
01:16:15,928 --> 01:16:17,348
do bet on themselves.

992
01:16:18,608 --> 01:16:20,168
Which, you know...

993
01:16:20,348 --> 01:16:26,448
it was a big fan when i learned that like don't hate the player hate the game uh like why would

994
01:16:26,448 --> 01:16:31,908
you bet on something like i mean i get betting on like an election where you like everybody knows

995
01:16:31,908 --> 01:16:35,948
the outcome at a certain point in the future but why would you bet on something that has been

996
01:16:35,948 --> 01:16:42,168
decided in the past like movies are generally not like uh live streamed like there's like an entire

997
01:16:42,168 --> 01:16:48,488
production team that knows what happened there but yeah yeah it's a brave new world it's a brave

998
01:16:48,488 --> 01:16:54,968
new world chris where um or anybody so curious find out more about you what you're working on

999
01:16:54,968 --> 01:17:05,688
seed or biturance yeah uh follow me on on twitter at coinjoint um i i post about my work i do uh

1000
01:17:05,688 --> 01:17:14,168
weird acquired taste memes um you can write me an email chris at cdor.io or at biturance.io

1001
01:17:14,168 --> 01:17:17,048
always happy to talk about Bitcoin.

1002
01:17:17,508 --> 01:17:18,568
Always, yeah,

1003
01:17:19,288 --> 01:17:20,388
up for conversation there.

1004
01:17:21,468 --> 01:17:22,968
Well, keep it up. Like I said, I've

1005
01:17:22,968 --> 01:17:25,288
been appreciating your game from across the pond

1006
01:17:25,288 --> 01:17:26,908
here. It's a very good game.

1007
01:17:26,928 --> 01:17:27,808
It's my star rising.

1008
01:17:28,208 --> 01:17:31,268
I don't know if

1009
01:17:31,268 --> 01:17:33,328
you're very tall. I don't know how

1010
01:17:33,328 --> 01:17:34,808
high it can rise from here, but

1011
01:17:34,808 --> 01:17:37,428
yeah, thank you

1012
01:17:37,428 --> 01:17:38,268
for doing this. This was fun.

1013
01:17:39,808 --> 01:17:41,148
Thank you. Thank you for having me, Marty.

1014
01:17:41,508 --> 01:17:43,128
All right. Peace and love, freaks.

1015
01:17:44,168 --> 01:17:46,288
Thank you for listening to this episode of TFTC.

1016
01:17:46,788 --> 01:17:50,328
If you've made it this far, I imagine you got some value out of the episode.

1017
01:17:50,948 --> 01:17:54,708
If so, please share it far and wide with your friends and family.

1018
01:17:54,788 --> 01:17:56,148
We're looking to get the word out there.

1019
01:17:57,008 --> 01:18:00,968
Also, wherever you're listening, whether that's YouTube, Apple, Spotify,

1020
01:18:01,748 --> 01:18:04,268
make sure you like and subscribe to the show.

1021
01:18:04,628 --> 01:18:08,988
And if you can leave a rating on the podcasting platforms, that goes a long way.

1022
01:18:09,428 --> 01:18:13,988
Last but not least, if you want to get these episodes a day early and ad-free,

1023
01:18:14,168 --> 01:18:21,488
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1024
01:18:21,588 --> 01:18:27,428
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1025
01:18:27,988 --> 01:18:34,528
So please consider subscribing via fountain as well. Thank you for your time. And until next time.

1026
01:18:44,168 --> 01:19:14,148
Thank you.