You've had a dynamic where money has become freer than free.
If you talk about a Fed just gone nuts, all the central banks going nuts.
So it's all acting like safe haven.
I believe that in a world where central bankers are tripping over themselves to devalue their
currency, Bitcoin wins. In the world of fiat currencies, Bitcoin is the victor.
I mean, that's part of the bull case for Bitcoin.
If you're not paying attention, you probably should be.
Vinny, you're a very quick internet celebrity this week.
Welcome to the show.
Yeah, pretty crazy.
I like Mayday.
Thanks for having me, Marty.
It's nice to finally meet you in person.
I'm a subscriber to the TFTC, and I like what you guys do.
So it's cool to be on the show.
So I just like I made a goal to post videos and be more active on Twitter.
And three videos later, I got Jack Dorsey retweeting me.
So that worked out pretty well.
It's pretty, pretty sweet.
And it is a name of the game these days.
Content marketing.
You got to get in it, prove that you know something.
It's tiring sometimes.
Yeah, right.
people beating you to the punch
getting on
getting the people they want on their podcast
before you stuff like that
Greg beat me to the punch this week
but no we had that back and forth
last week when I
think we
we reposted your original video
on Buzz and I quote tweeted about
sort of L402 agentic payments
and imagining that and I think
I think we definitely talk about Buzz
we are going to talk about Buzz
and how it works.
But I think taking a step back
and just thinking about using these agents in general
or using agents, using AI models,
thinking of harnesses, models, agents.
That's where I feel like most people
on the outside looking in,
if you haven't been playing around
with these tools for a lot,
it's all so confusing.
And most people don't know where to start.
And we've started,
we actually launched this TFTC roundtable
where we just have a private group of people.
And we've been playing with this stuff for two years now
with the models at the very least,
but with the harnesses and OpenClaw and Hermes
for the last seven months.
And we're like, okay, we sort of know our way around.
And we're not technical at all.
I know enough to be dangerous,
but certainly wouldn't consider myself a software engineer.
Set up my first VPS in January of this year.
but um i set up my first vps um two weeks ago so and i am a software engineer yeah it's okay
but i'm just usually mostly hosting on cloud providers and stuff like that so
yeah but i mean based off of like our pre-recording like a little powwow there
like how do you view the state of ai and these tools and how to use them and how how people
should be? Well, I think you summed it up pretty well because it's really cool. It's very surprising
to me to see how technical people like you can sound. You guys, you run your business,
you know your workflows, you know how to describe what it is you need. And the agents are able to
give you that stuff. And then you're able to learn very quickly. You don't know the code syntax,
but you're talking about hosting stuff on virtual private servers and things like that.
It's pretty amazing the technical ability and the level of knowledge that you can attain just by using these tools.
So I think that's where we're at.
I think the playing field is being leveled.
There are definitely the doers and the non-doers, but it's no longer limited by technical ability anymore.
No, it's certainly not.
You just talk to your computer.
That's like another thing that fascinates me is it seems like the form factor or the medium through which we interact with computers is changing.
I mean, that's what software development is, right?
You were talking to your computer, but in a different kind of language, right?
Now you're talking to your computer in English.
So, yeah.
Yeah.
And it's like I'm a huge voice to text maximalist, just option spacebar.
I saw you were demoing Handy.
I use Super Whisper.
I haven't tried Handy yet.
but it looked very similar and what um what are the like how long you've been playing with these
tools like obviously you've been demoing buzz but i imagine i mean you're building wasp um which is
trying to solve one of the pain points of people interacting with these models and these agents
so what's your journey been experimenting with this and yeah so like you said um i'm a founding
developer relations engineer on Wasp.
Wasp team, which is like a full stack framework
that makes it very,
and the easiest way to explain it in this context is that it makes it very easy for humans and agents to build web apps with it Because it just again like we talking about these things are like you know abstraction layers on top of another
So like the way Buzz is an abstraction layer on top of the coding agents.
Wasp is like an abstraction layer on top of the normal tech stack that you would use to build a web app.
But like it's usually all these disjointed parts.
You have to kind of glue them all together yourself or nowadays it's your agent doing it.
But we have this like, you know, configuration file.
It's like a central place where you can just write really simple config.
And then the compiler like Wasp, the framework, puts it all, glues all the pieces together for you.
So it's just like it makes, it does a lot of heavy lifting for you or your agent.
And then makes reviewing and looking at the pieces that have been put together a lot easier
because the code has been reduced to just a few lines of conflict.
So in building WASP, obviously, once these tools start coming out,
you're going to start using them. And when ChatGPT dropped, that was the first thing I did.
I was like, how can I... I'm going to paste in an example of a WASP config file and see if ChatGPT
can do it. And this was back when it was GPT-3. One of my first YouTube videos was
build a full stack app in 10 minutes with ChatGPT and Wasp. And it was just like copying,
pasting stuff back because we didn't have coding agents yet. So that already worked. And I was like,
okay, cool. We're on to something here. This is nice. And then it's also like,
right when the OpenAI API dropped, I was like, oh shit, how can I put this into an app? So
it sounds silly now, but I built an app that was a cover letter generator. It was just a GPT wrapper.
You'll hear people joke about these all the time. Oh, GPT wrappers, bro.
But I made, I don't know, $10,000 off of a GPT wrapper just because I did it first.
I put it on and put it behind Stripe Payments. It's a really shitty app
right when the API dropped. So that's been my journey starting out. I see this stuff and I'm
like, cool, what creative or what cool thing can I try with it? What cool thing can I do with it?
And I take the other road. I'm not one of these workflow freaks where I think everything needs
to be super detailed and stuff. But there's definitely potential in all this stuff. And I
think just testing it out, finding the right way to use it just unlocks a lot of new possibilities
for especially entrepreneurs, like young or people starting out that didn't have access to legal
advice or I don't know, tax advice, you can get really far with that stuff, build a business,
build a product. Or if you have a service business, you can build small software,
personal tools. And it's just like, opens up new worlds and new economies. So I really like
that part of it. I did too. And it's... I mean, if you've been a subscriber,
you've probably heard us talk about it. I mean, we're a team of six here, five or six,
depending on the contractor work that we need on any given month.
But it's insane what we've been able to do.
And I know there's some people listening to this like,
oh, Marty, stop talking to us.
It's like, I'm talking about this so much because I think
if you haven't been playing around with this,
you really need to start doing so.
And I think there's some decision paralysis
because people are like, where do I start?
One of my personal preferences that I really have become
convinced of over the last seven months and i think you sort of would think the same way as why
like buzz is so appealing it's like don't lock yourself into one model provider like i like
having a harness i've been using hermes for many months and before that open claw and i just like
the ability to have the harness which is i view as like the nervous system uh you use the model as
the as like the the agent brain but then like all this exists in the vps that i set up in january
And then that has local file and folder systems that are our company brain that the model, the model can plug into and then send that to the nervous system to get stuff done.
Yep, definitely. Yeah. And I saw that you were talking about how you have all this context built up and these, you know, in Hermes.
And now that you can just plug that into Buzz and share it with other agents is like a huge unlock.
So, I mean, that stuff's really cool. I think openness is... We're starting to see the openness factor of being able to have access to open source models and just choices in the AI ecosystem.
That's becoming more and more important because of whatever top-down policies or government mandates or just...
you know, that stuff might just be too expensive for some kid who wants to get his idea off the ground.
And like, yeah, you got to have access to an open source model, switch it over or use shared compute,
which Buzz has which is really cool feature Go for it Yeah How do you view this closed source frontier open AI Anthropic versus open weight Chinese model
I mean, it's good competition. Let's see where it goes. Cloud code is definitely, I mean,
we have to give a lot of credit to like Anthropic and OpenAI. They've paved the way for sure.
but we see like their response to things is always kind of like take a step back like
serious you guys sure about that like you sure you want to go with that marketing messaging
like I don't know there's always things like that or I'm waiting for them to
I assume that token subsidy is a real thing and that we won't get these prices forever but you
never know because just stuff is progressing so fast so i think it's good it's healthy for the
ecosystem and um i think the other players that are like kind of behind on anthropic they like it
too because it allows them to catch up um so i think it's just interesting to watch i'm just kind
of watching from from the outside using it and um uh yeah just having fun um to kind of like bring
one of your points that you made earlier um about oh shit i lost my train of thought
anyway
I mean we continue
was it like the model like the one thing I agree
I think Anthropic and OpenAI
despite the
their flaws mainly that they're
run by either sociopathic
or effective altruist
they have an effective
altruist at the helm of one and a sociopath
at the helm of the other
it is undeniable that the
models they produced are incredible
and that's what I worry about here in the States
is them really positioning to get a regulatory mode
and getting their way and the government killing the open weight,
the ability of the open weight models to progress.
But cautiously optimistic that we'll avoid that.
But bringing it back is like, again, the harnesses
and the one piece of advice I give to people
who are beginning to play around with this
and set up agentic flows is like, don't get vendor lock in.
Like I haven't opened Codex desktop or Claw desktop in six months.
I've just been interacting predominantly through Telegram with my Hermes agent.
I have a group chat with it with a bunch of different topics and it's represent parallel sessions.
And so it's able to get work done.
And the only time I'll open up Claw or Codex really is if I have to hop in the terminal and debug something, I'll open the CLI directly.
Yep.
That makes a lot of sense. And you remind me of what I wanted to say earlier, which was like you said, people have decision paralysis around the stuff. And I think really the important thing is just pick one, start using it. It doesn't really matter which. The same topics, the same things apply to all the others.
So it doesn't really matter which one you start with.
Get your hands on the one that looks good or affordable or fits your philosophy and then just start using it to do stuff.
No.
No, shifting to buzz.
I mean, I think we've both played around with it for the last week.
It's definitely rough around the edges.
Definitely still a prototype, I think.
But last night, it took me a while.
Going back, it took me actually like two days.
I spent like an hour trying to do it.
on Monday and then last night I finally got around to finishing it but like connecting
the Hermes agent to Buzz and getting it um interacting with Fizz uh Bumble and and Honey
the three agents that that Buzz has out of the box and it was pretty crazy and uh for me
it was uh it was a bit of a heavier lift because again I have I have my Hermes agent running in
the VPS. So the way that buzz works, it's running locally on your machine. And so I have Hermes
desktop running locally on the machine too, but I had to SSH into the VPS on Hermes desktop and then
port the, uh, basically like tunneling from buzz on my computer to Hermes on my computer to Hermes
in the cloud. Nobody would know that you're not a software developer talking like that.
No, but somebody probably could have done it in five minutes, but it took me the better part of like three hours over two days to figure it out.
But I did.
Yeah, exactly.
but i think i'd be interested to get your thoughts too i know you explained them on greg's podcast
yesterday but just in your mind compared to just using codex or cloud code or
an agent harness or wasp like how how's buzz different and what is it online
um yeah i think like i said it a few times in like different tweets and stuff that
But I think the Slack killer thing is a nice piece of marketing It a little bit superficial because I don really think that the only thing or even the main thing
I think the main thing, the main drivers behind it is this ability to switch models and harnesses.
And it's like a Trojan horse to get people to switch over to local open source models.
give them the ability to use Claude and Codex, but also to switch to
any other open source model or any other
open source harness like OpenCode or Goose or one of those.
And because if you can look a little bit
around the corner, you can see, I mean, it's not even that hard. Timmy K3 is like
bumping up next to the frontier models for a fraction of the cost.
So it already gives you a perfect avenue to go
that route. So they're kind of like... I see it kind of like a Trojan horse for open source models
and for shared compute. And then further down the line, Bitcoin, Lightning payments,
whether it's agent to agent, human to agent, human to human. My guess is they start small,
early preview, buggy, but they work out the kinks with the users so they know which kinks to really
focus on and then slowly release those underlying features.
And another one of those is Git.
I think they're looking to replace GitHub.
So you've got all this code on GitHub, all your code.
And if it's public, anybody can trade a model on that.
The whole idea is Buzz works like this global context window for you and your community or
your company or whatever.
and then they have under the surface an ability to host your repositories remotely on your VPS or
on your server whichever server that you run whenever your relay is hosted self-hosted so I
see them I see it as being many things more than just a slack killer you know and those are the
directions I can foresee it going in yeah well and I mean you're you seem to be very well versed on
because you've done some videos on Nostra specifically,
but I think Nostra...
I know Nostra's at the core of this
and is somebody who's been a long time Nostra bull.
I think I was probably one of the first 100 people on Nostra.
Maybe first 1,000.
I'd be more confident saying the first 1,000.
So I've been on Nostra since.
When did it launch, actually? Do you remember?
I think 2022.
If I go...
Let me see.
I think I was on it like three months after it.
Or a month after it launched.
it was very it was like a very niche like big not even a bitcoin side project but it was like
a side project a bunch of bitcoin developers worked on i've been on since yeah july wow
it's three days past my fourth noster birthday july 26 2022 um nice nice yeah i got on in 2023
I saw, but I'm not a huge like primal user or a Nostra user.
But that app I was telling you about earlier, the GPT wrapper, I was like, okay, I want
to learn how to use Lightning Payments.
So I put Lightning Auth.
I think it's LN URL Auth in there.
It's been a while since I messed with it.
And I actually got some Lightning Payments for people to generate cover letters.
So that was cool.
That was like, it seems ancient now in AI years.
It was like 2023 or 2024 that I put it up there.
Yeah, so it was pretty funny.
Yeah, but I mean, to your point, like Primal, Domus,
so everybody listening doesn't know what NOSTER is,
notes and other stuff transmitted over relays.
It's a communications protocol.
Very simple in the first.
Predominant use cases or applications built on it
were social media based.
And for the longest time,
Nostra developers and anybody
who's been paying close attention to development,
I think Jack is one of those people.
I've talked with him specifically about this.
Over the years,
social media is just like the tip of the iceberg.
Just this ability to use private public key pairs
to sign events and have cryptographic proof
that something existed at some point in time
in a certain state is very powerful.
And the social media use case,
you can prove that somebody who controlled a private key at this point in time wrote this message
and relate it to the network.
But now, like you're saying, I think one of the biggest problems that many have with these LLMs,
particularly if you're using codecs or cloud code only,
is the context windows are relatively short if you're pinging the models a lot.
So you can jam the context window or compact it multiple times a day.
And then your your AI system gets some form of amnesia
if you don't have a second brain or something set up that it's plugged into.
And that's where I think Buzz leveraging Nostr in this historical context.
that you have over time with signed events is an unlock for creating like a corpus,
a context that builds over time that the agents can just plug into.
Yeah, that's a really good observation.
I always looked at it more like the thing I thought was cool is that it's, you know,
it's a permissionless protocol.
So you can just kind of interact with anything on the protocol.
So like you could, you can just create these Frankenstein apps, you know, you could connect,
you know, imagine trying to connect Slack and Discord and GitHub together.
and like put them together.
Like you can't really do that.
You could do that very easily with Buzz
and some other apps or things running on the protocol.
So seeing Buzz come out built on top of Nostre
and being like, okay, cool.
There is a really nice use case for Nostre
outside of social media.
This is exciting.
Let's see what else we can do, you know?
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that's a v e n dot com slash bitcoin check it out and then the agents get their own identity
which i think is uh interesting i'm not i haven't explored the the full thought experiment about
what that means but um just thinking about where this because like i have my hermes agent
and everybody's like when are you going to let other people on buzz get access so i never because
it's got access to a server with a bunch of proprietary information on it.
But you can think of a scenario
where people just build individual agents
that don't have as much sensitive proprietary information,
don't have access to that information.
People can just begin sharing agents.
They can have like Matrix Agent Smith like
reproducibility
that just basically emanate throughout buzz communities.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly. Because, because they can move, you know, you can move with that when you go take your identity with you to a new community it comes with. But I also think that like, it's there and built on Noster so that it can enable sharing of resources of compute and paying for those, you know.
so i think um i mean there's two there's more than one side right it's like all the benefits
of nostr but i think that's a that's going to be something we'll see and i mean i wrote that
in one of my first tweets and jack retweeted it so there's a good there's a good um uh
good possibility that that is what they're planning yeah no and then like the fact that
it's on nostr too it's open source protocol a lot of the applications but on top of it are open
source as well.
And so you can
like the permissionless nature of it too.
You can imagine just sending agents
like, hey, somebody had to build something like this on Noster
and go find it, incorporate it into our
workspace. And the whole
idea of shared compute, there's
Routster,
open agents, there are these compute
markets that have already been built
on top of Noster. So the ability
to port in that code
and just create an open marketplace
like, hey, I have a
GPU running in my house.
I'm not using it. I'm going to put a
L402 gateway
on top of it, plug into
Roustor or OpenAgence. I'm going to use
their code to basically
market that I have this compute available
and anybody that
is connected to me via Buzz
if our mpubs are connected
like you, you'll be able to access
this compute as well if you pay for it.
Yeah. I mean, it's pretty cool.
We saw what happened. I'm sure
people or you know about
what was going on in India, where they're banning BitChat and stuff like that.
And then it just like when you have these kinds of shared channels over open protocols it pretty hard to shut off access to a model if they being shared that way I would assume right
So that's also a cool possibility.
Yeah.
I mean, I forget what the Noster GitHub replacement is called.
But yeah, if you get that in there, it's open source,
and the code is stored on relays that people are self-hosting,
it's going to be very hard to shut that down.
Definitely.
Cool.
So we've been pretty philosophical.
Should we do any demos or what else?
What are you thinking?
I think let's do a demo.
And maybe as you're doing a demo of how you're using this,
explain what the unlock is.
like for me, like again, the agents being able to coordinate like Martin,
who is our Hermes agent.
When I got him connected, I made him basically like the Sargent Arms lead connector.
And then I rewrote the system prompts for Fizz, Bumble and Honey
and created one other agent.
Basically, Martin became our orchestrator and he's got access to
basically like our we put all of our meeting,
like our transcripts of our meetings, contracts,
uh advertisement schedules that we have to get in so he's got access to all that company
information so martin you know what we're trying to get done in the business uh you know so sort of
some of the low-hanging fruit initiatives that we haven't begun working on like all right hop in here
with fizz bumble uh and honey and delegate some of the tasks that we have not finished yet to them
um and it was like i was watching last night there was like a probably like a 45 minute loop
of them just going back and forth until they got to a point of actually completing a task.
I was like, holy crap, this is crazy.
Yeah. It's pretty good at that too. I'm surprised at the end-to-end workflows that it's able to
complete, know when to keep going, when to delegate, when to stop and stuff like that.
So that's pretty cool. Sounds like you might even be doing more
practical stuff than I am because you're actually using it for
your team. And meanwhile,
I'm just kind of playing around doing like, you know, demo stuff.
Can you see the screen here?
Yep.
Yeah.
And let me just get this like kind of minimized here.
So yeah, like you were saying, you know, what's a good one.
You know, one thing I shared earlier today that a lot of people seem to like was this
prompt where, you know, I'm pinning models to the agents.
So I'll have one that is pinned to Sonnet, like a lower level model, and one that's pinned
to Fable for more complex tasks.
But I'll have them bounce stuff back and forth because I know the workflow.
So I'll tell Shared Boy, you download a transcript from the video and this transcript, pass it
to Fizz, and Fizz, which is Fable, find the 5 most surprising ideas from the transcript
with timestamps and really get chunks where you're not cutting off a sentence or an idea
and pass that new document of chunked transcript back to Shared Boy, who's Sonnet, use FFmpeg,
cut out those sections to make short clips to post to social media.
So I get them to make basically shorts for me for Twitter and stuff with that.
And then like you said, they're bouncing stuff back and forth.
And I find this kind of workflow way nicer than in Cloud Code where you have sub-agents.
I don't know why, but I never caught on to using sub-agents.
You have the same thing, basically, but just something about having them in a shared chat,
which is like...
People have been gravitating towards using mobile apps, mobile solutions, right?
Because of something about that where you can just kind of have conversations with your
teammates, with the agent. It just, I don't know, it feels nicer. And I really like that about Buzz.
That's just like one example that I used it for for today, where I'd prefer to use it over
something like Cloud Code. Yeah, well, in this exact example, so we have this exact workflow,
we built this for the pot, like, we'll use this workflow for this podcast, like a very similar
workflow. It's probably not the exact same, but we do the same thing where it's like, hey,
take the transcript with the timestamps of this episode,
find the most engaging parts.
Actually, we have a Twitter API, a third-party Twitter API that we use.
Scrape that, look at what's trending, and if anything
that we talked about matches with something that's beginning to trend, maybe we should focus on that.
And then find the timestamps of the clip and go clip it.
But we have our social media manager who has access to Martin in a sort of private Discord channel doing that workflow in a silo.
And so when I think about Buzz what this opens up is the ability to take our social media manager and martin the single agent out of that silo and like pull them yep into more collaborative space where yep not only
could he ask martin to do this but like fit he could delegate specific tasks within this this
particular workflow to to get better better results and then on top of that like you know
have the human members of our team hop in and be like well actually yeah like you guys did like
here's some input from me about another angle we could take on this.
And yeah, it just really consolidates
consolidates the
the work and makes it more open.
And that's actually
one thing I've been thinking a lot about, and it's actually
funny enough, influenced by Dorsey.
And I think Dorsey is really emerging as somebody who's viewing
this whole AI revolution with with a very clear mind
and particularly his paper that he wrote with
Olof from a roll off, excuse me, from Sequoia and then the podcast they did about the intelligence layer companies becoming intelligence layers.
And like this whole concept of instead of individual employees or members of your team working in these silos, like, yes, they will have delegated tasks and they'll have goals and there will be a division of labor.
But the ability of these agents to open up collaboration across the team and for the team to have access to all the information about what everybody else is doing is extremely powerful.
And I think that's something that people really haven't caught on to yet either.
Yeah. And that's why I like to kind of refer to it as it's the first step in the right direction to have a global context window.
Right. Because it's like usually you have, like you were saying, things siloed are spread out between different apps and you're bouncing back between them.
you lose context, you lose the ability to collaborate with other people, get input from
other people where it's like, you know, you just talk about what you want to do, your ideas,
and then you can have something implemented for you right there in that moment, right?
So it just like speeds things up, gives you this global context window, so to speak.
And I think that's like a really cool direction with this.
And one other thing I want to point out was like, you know, I'm doing this as a one-off, like, it's kind of like a skill or whatever. It's a prompt, right? But like, with a lot of that stuff, I think personally, I'm trying to, I'm inspired by Buzz that it's built on Nostra.
I'm trying to think of ways to incorporate Noster into apps that I build.
Because I think it makes sense when it's a deterministic workflow, right?
When it's like, you know, it's just a very strict process that's going to be repeated over and over to build some kind of like just niche, small app that you host that does that.
So like you're talking about where it's like scraping the using X API, scraping X for certain trends, cross-referencing that.
I build something similar. It's just like a little demo. You might have seen it in the video that I posted on Twitter. And I originally had an externally facing API. And I just thought it would be cool to learn a bit more about Noster.
instead of my agent running a workflow
or like a recurring daily task
and doing that call and using tokens for that stuff,
why don't I use a recurring job in my Wasp app?
Because that's like also something really easy to do in Wasp
is just recurring jobs are a primitive in Wasp.
So you just like set up a recurring job,
tell the agent, set up a recurring job
that takes the same stats that you're pushing
to the external API, but push them to Noster.
Just make it a Noster event, sign it and push to the Noster on my relay.
And so I just get now to tweet stats every day from my app pushing to Noster.
So the agent isn't doing this, but it's going into the agent context.
So I can just reply to this here and be like, cool.
Tell me what's working and what's not based on the current trends like you're doing.
Stuff like that, I think is really cool.
I don't think it's like nailed the ability to use Nostr to its full potential.
But I think just through trying out things like this,
we might be able to find cool ways, creative ways to build apps on Nostr
that are integrated into your relays and your buzz communities.
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I think one of the underappreciated aspects of that, building on Nostra too, is the network effect.
Because what Buzz essentially is, is a Nostra client.
It's just a client, it's a front end built on top of the protocol and the relays connected to that protocol.
And what many people, particularly the Nostra haters over the years, have not realized is that all Nostra needs to do,
similar to Bitcoin, is just survive long enough and maintain a critical massive network effect that
if it continues to grow for entrepreneurs, specifically if you're building apps,
the way that Nostra works with the public private key pairs and the way clients work is like,
I have a primal, I created a new NSEC and public key for Buzz for my individual profile there,
but I could easily import the NSEC that I've been using for four years.
And so the same NSEC I use on Prime, I use on Domus, I use on Wisp,
I use on Zap.Stream, I use on Rouser.
I can just port that over to Buzz and have the full context of my Noster history brought to Buzz.
And so instead of trying to, basically as an entrepreneur releasing an app,
trying to bootstrap a network effect.
Like if your app's good enough,
anybody on Noster with a private public key pair
can just easily sign into your app with that
and bring full context with them,
which is extremely powerful.
Yeah.
And it's kind of cool to see like,
you know, sometimes we're like for people,
but these forward thinking technologies,
it takes a while.
Like you said, it just has to not die,
but it's like people build it.
They don't even know that like AI and coding agents
are coming around the corner,
but it takes something, some other kind of progression,
some other kind of step change to then like open up like the aha moment, right?
Where it's like, oh shit, this is it.
This is like, this is going to work now, you know, this might really work.
And that's how I kind of feel like it's happening here.
It's like the beginning of that aha moment where it's like,
oh, Nasser can be, Nasser can be bigger
and can really play that role that it was designed to play.
So I'm excited about that.
Yeah. And it's like a weird feedback loop too,
where like the AI vibe coding is sort of enabling it in a way.
Instead of having to read like the docs on how Nostra works,
it's like you just tell your clanker, like figure out.
Like I did it.
When I spun out my OpenClaw agent, I was just messing around,
like seeing what it could do.
I was like, okay, like I want you to be able to spend Bitcoin,
like go figure out what the best wallet is
and the best way for me to get you Bitcoin.
It did some research.
It's like, hey, we have a server.
There's this thing called Phoenix D where we can run a lightning server on.
We can spin up a lightning server in our VPS.
We should use that.
I was like, OK, now I'll just send you like when you when you set it up, send me
send me an invoice to to basically create a channel because the way Phoenix works, it's
like, OK, when you set up the server, send me an on chain address.
I'll send Bitcoin to that and then you'll submarine swap that into a lightning channel
so that you can spend.
And it did that.
And I was like, OK, you have a server.
You have Bitcoin like you have L and URL off.
Like since you have your server, you can sign the private key and you can sign
into websites that that are ellen url auth enabled i was like all right like go to ellen markets and
i want to see you like put a trade get to go along bitcoin like sign in go long it did that
then i was like okay i want like i want you to manage this like just create like a simple
trend following um trading strategy i don't care if you lose money i just want to do this for uh
experiment reasons like also create an osster account um and then post your trades on a daily
basis and it did that like it created an nsec and an mpub and was posting the nostril autonomously
for like a month before i was like all right this is this is cool but i don't feel like
keeping up with uh with the trades um but like the going back to the feedback loop like
to your point about like it just needs to survive and then something will happen where
it really creates that aha moment and like it's a symbiosis where like vibe coding's enabling
the accessibility to these protocols,
which are a lot of times
like techno babble to many people,
but you don't have to understand
the techno babble anymore.
Just like tell your client.
Yeah, yeah, that's crazy.
It's really fun
because you just have the idea
and then you just go for it.
I love that.
Yeah.
Something else I do a lot,
like I just get,
I get it to create HTML presentations for me
so that I can learn stuff
because you were talking about like,
I don't know how to use
or build on Noster,
but I just tell my client here to do it. Or if I want to learn basically a high level thing,
I'll just be like, create an HTML presentation. And I actually did that for Noster. So I was like,
I'm a full stack developer. Make sure I really know what I'm talking about. Create that presentation
for me. Just like an HTML file. I love doing that to learn about stuff so that I get a deeper
knowledge. And then I did this before I started building that app that was sending Noster events.
So when it does stuff, I still have a clue what it's doing. And if I run into problems,
I can maybe point them in the right direction. So that's cool. That was fun while building
this app here that I can just click sync. And then I get that event, that Noster event in Buzz.
And then when it comes in there, some of the workflows right there, boom, came in, tells me,
hey, you got new tweet stats. And then I can just start chatting with him.
So some of the workflows in Buzz are still a little bit iffy. I don't know.
It's an experimental feature. So in their defense, they've got it in settings under experiments.
You can click on workflows or projects. And I had some work, some don't. Some are a little iffy.
So I think they'll get it worked out though. Yeah, I think that's cool.
I do as well
the
I'm sorry I got my kids yelling
in the background right here
the
do you think this is making people
more productive like I think that's one of the
big questions particularly for the
bears and the doomers out there like
oh it's great like usage
is there actually more productivity in the
economy
can't just ask a question like that
and then leave Marty
I just shut the door.
I just smell something.
Like, that's a good question because yes, it can.
Is it, I think we got to wait a little while to see the effects, of course.
Like, it's going to take a while to trickle through, but like,
on a general like on a broader basis But I think if you know what you want and if you know what you doing you know what you want and you know when Even if you asking these things for
advice, if you know when it's giving bad advice, or you have a good sense of what's the better
advice, which advice to take, then yeah, you're... I started that app in a company.
I wouldn't have been able to do that. I would probably would not have done it pre 2023,
pre AI, because I'm not the kind of person that's going to go out on a limb and hire a tax advisor
and all these people. I literally did the majority of the work first off with just agents,
copy and pasting websites, screenshots, like, what's this mean? What do I got to do here?
What do I got to do? And just like slogging through it.
And before we really had like good agents like this, but like, yeah,
if you're driven to do that kind of stuff you have, you have,
so you just have an idea and a will to do it, you can do it. So, yeah,
I think for the right people, it's a multiplier for sure.
It's a great lever. It's a huge lever. And in the wrong hands,
you know, it's just going to be a, it's going to lead to nothing as well.
You know, that's the way it goes.
Yeah, I mean, you used the word earlier, but I think
in terms of like deterministic workflows and sharing them.
But I agree to like that's the way I view it.
That's what I tell people is like the way I use these tools
is I know what the output should be, particularly for our workflows at TFTC.
And so like I know when it's wrong, it's like.
I don't expect the models to go out and like create something new for us,
if that makes sense.
It's like, I know we have this task that we need done and we typically don't get it done because we don't have enough bandwidth.
Like, I know what the end result should be.
Like, please go do that and get the output.
Right.
Is it wrong?
If it's right, thank you.
Good job.
If it's wrong, you messed up here.
Do that.
I think people falter is thinking that it's going to just do something magical for them.
And like, these are essentially, they're large language models.
They're just doing a probabilistic analysis of what the best,
what the best next word is and the output.
And like, you just need to know what the output should be and apply that lens to it.
Like, don't say, build me a business that makes a billion dollars a year.
Make no mistakes.
Right, right.
Yeah.
You still got to do the work.
It's just easier to do the work.
That's about it.
You know, so it's easier to get to,
it's easier to get something done that you might have basically no knowledge on previously.
You're a great example. Being able to self-host these things, these tools to
virtual private servers and connect to the SSH into them and all this stuff.
That stuff was very hard just four years ago.
To me, it's not really a debate. But when I see companies that have token mandates,
It's like, you have to use so many tokens.
You have to use AI to this, you know, hit these benchmark, hit these targets.
And, you know, the people who don't, the people who sat around and did nothing before
are just going to waste those tokens, you know?
So it's like, it all depends on how you approach it.
Yeah.
Great.
Bring this back to Buzz.
What would be your top request for a feature Top request for a feature I think they doing it right I willing to These are experimental features This is early preview stuff
I think what I would like to see
is if you're used to...
If you're used to working in a terminal
and just these views,
and then if you're a software developer,
you might want to jump back
and run your own commands
like you're used to that stuff.
It could be cool if they had something embedded in here like that for the more technical people.
But it's not like...
It's not...
Yeah, the cool thing is it's open source.
Someone like me or someone could put that in as a feature and submit a PR to block.
So maybe we'll see that.
But I think I like the approach.
I'm willing to deal with some kind of the rough edges at the moment while it's really early preview.
Because I think it's going in a very cool direction.
And I didn't, you know, I'm like, I'm not one to jump on bandwagons just because they're trendy.
Like if I see something that interests me, then I'll try it out.
So yeah, this seems like a pretty cool approach.
And I want to see more integration with, I want to see what I would like to actually see
is other cool stuff happening on Nostra that gets integrated here in a creative way
so that we can use these tools together in creative ways.
but I think we're still kind of figuring it out.
At least I am.
Yeah.
And like the tweet that you responded to,
I think the first big unlock could be
basically forking or implementing
Rouser open agents for a market to compute,
particularly for open source models,
and then equipping the agents with Bitcoin wallets
that they can load up.
Or to your point, like I think you said on Greg,
it's like being able to tip other humans or agents
to go do work for you. Very trivially. Yeah. I mean, look at primals, or I'm sorry,
like Noster. I use Primal mainly, but Noster is such a good example. And I mean, Lynn Alden has
pointed this out before that the incentive structure is so different than Twitter. When
you make something useful on Noster, people literally tip you, send you money. And now imagine
that same. So we know it works. We know people are willing to tip for valuable information,
insights, work, things like that. Now imagine you have that here in Buzz where it's like
an open community. So it's not just your company, right? You're doing something private, but let's
say we all join together and we start like some open community that's working on an open source
project. And someone just comes up with a really cool idea and mentions it in the community. You
could pay them for good ideas because then you get the agents to implement them.
Or then you pay whoever's running the really cool high-performance open source model, you
send them a zap to implement that task on their shared compute or on their agent.
So that's really cool.
I think that's what I want to see basically.
I think we will see that if, um, it's like you said, if it just stays around long enough,
it doesn't die. Like a bounty board too. Um, yep. Yep. It's create bounties for particular,
particular workflows or tasks to be done. And it's like the perfect example, like this podcast
is hosted on Noster. We use fountain, their podcast host. It's a, it's a Noster client.
And so like there going to be people who listen to this podcast and stream us Bitcoin over over the network um and like if you were like i could if you like i could literally put your end pub in this episode i think we can
do it individual episodes and like you could share in the stream of bitcoin that's coming our way as
people are are boosting and streaming sats to to this episode cool i'll spend it on some sweet
powerful agents
in the future
when it gets
implemented
but yeah
that's what I would
like to see
yeah
I know it's getting
late where you are
how
how should we
end this
any final thoughts
any
calls to action
any
philosophical
musings about
the state of AI
where we're going
are we getting
job destruction
nah yeah
no I think we did
a pretty good job
of doing
of
of covering that stuff. I like the angle we took here. It was cool, different than the other
podcasts. So that's nice. No, I think this is pretty good. Maybe if people want to know more
or hear more, they should let us know. And then that'd be cool to... There might be some things
out there that people are interested in that we haven't really hit on. And then we can explore
further talk about it um on on the social media platforms or do another one of these that would
be cool that'd be awesome well uh appreciate you coming on thanks for having me sure it's been a
hectic week for you you're just out there talking about the tools that you're using and become a
become a little internet celebrity this week so i appreciate you coming on this show and uh
You're welcome.
It seems like you're a Bitcoiner.
At least you're playing around with it,
which is cool to see.
And Nostra, you're becoming well-versed on it.
These are two projects that obviously
I've been very passionate about for many years.
And it feels like this agentic economy
is the moment for Nostra and Bitcoin to shine.
And it seems like we're getting to the point
where people are beginning to recognize that.
it was just cool to see you talk
about these
technologies and the potential for them on a show
like Greg Eisenberg who really doesn't cover this
stuff much so
yeah yeah totally
agree
alright well hopefully we'll do this
again at some point in the future and until
then enjoy it brother
you too
peace and love freaks
thank you for listening to this episode of TFTC
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Okay.