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You've had a dynamic where money has become freer than free.

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We talk about a Fed just gone nuts.

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All the central banks going nuts.

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So it's all acting like safe haven.

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I believe that in a world where central bankers are tripping over themselves to devalue their currency, Bitcoin wins.

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In the world of fiat currencies, Bitcoin is the victor.

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I mean, that's part of the bull case for Bitcoin.

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If you're not paying attention, you probably should be.

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Vic and Seth, welcome to the show.

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First time, long time.

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Thanks for having us on.

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Yeah, I'm excited for this.

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I've been, man, Tales from the Crypt was the first show when I first went down the rabbit hole of Bitcoin

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and fell down the listen to a thousand hours of podcasts.

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Tales from the Crypt was the go for me.

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So it's really, really cool to be able to be on here.

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Obviously, I've known Adele for a really long time,

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but we've never gotten to chat much, Marty.

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So I'm excited for this.

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Thanks for having us on.

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I am as well.

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I mean, you guys just launched Radar Chat this week,

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which is a long time coming.

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Adele and I have been talking about the need

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for Bitcoin payments and Signal for years.

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I think since we started Rabbit Hole Recap eight years ago,

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it's always been a topic of discussion here and there.

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You guys have finally launched it. Thank you for that, number one.

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Number two, I think the juxtaposition of your launch date on July 7th

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and everything going on in the EU as it pertains to chat control,

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VPN banning being talked about in the UK,

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facial recognition being talked about in cars throughout the European Union.

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And it seems like the digital panopticon is being erected around us.

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And it's incumbent upon us in the Freedom Tech space to build the tools to route around that.

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And it looks like with radar, you've done just that.

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So I think to jump off, just talking about what convinced you to build radar in the first place and why now.

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So, I mean, there was a lot of factors involved.

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One being, of course, the community wanted it.

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You've talked about it, Odell, like you said.

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Even Jack Dorsey's tweeted about it.

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We have a pretty good video coming out on that pretty soon.

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So that was a big driving force.

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Another one was on my trips to China, everyone using WeChat.

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And when it comes time to pay at the cafe or wherever I am, you're not pulling out another payment app or anything.

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You just use the same app that you're communicating with.

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um so that was that was also a driving factor um you know right now for messaging

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it's it's so natural everybody's doing it all the time that's what you wake up and you do you

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check your messages see what you've any messages from your friends or family um so it's already a

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platform that everybody's using all the time and there's already so much stuff blowing in messaging

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apps like x of course but also video pictures documents so why not money right that's what we

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thought why not money why can't bitcoin flow through this the same system um and why now

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i think the tech is is there now to do it um i don't know if you know a couple years ago when

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seth just joined on actually we were trying to implement lightning into cake wallet

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and it was just a terrible user experience um even though the user didn't have to worry about

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managing channels and liquidity and all that still the user experience was pretty bad

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and actually seth killed when he came on so you can blame him um but then uh you know spark and uh

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and breeze uh breeze built an sdk for for spark and we put that in cake already this year and it

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It was a huge success.

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And we're like, okay, this is it.

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This technology is here now.

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We can put it into Signal.

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Then your next question should be, why Signal, right?

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And we kicked around the idea of doing another messaging app, you know, a new one altogether.

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But, I mean, you probably have four or five messaging apps on your phone right now, at least.

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And now I try to get people to download yet another messaging app and have all their friends and family join.

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It's just, it's a heavy lift, right?

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Um, Signal made sense at their gold standard and privacy.

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Uh, it's open source.

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We can build, we can build on it.

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They have some payment rails that we were able to take advantage of with that mobile

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coin.

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They did.

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But yeah, with all these things coming together at the right time, if it was an obvious and

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right time to do this project.

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Seth, I mean, you've been on the tip of the spear of freedom tech and particularly as

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as it pertains to bringing privacy to users,

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how would you describe the implementation of radar leveraging

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for a signal that open source project

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and then the way in which you guys implemented

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Bitcoin payments within the wallet?

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Yeah, for sure.

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So, I mean, I think they covered all the high-level details.

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The big things to me are, one, like you said,

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like the the ability to do lightning in a way that feels frictionless but is still self-custodial

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i know we can maybe get into some of the specifics of the trust model of spark down the line if you

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want but in my eyes still self-custodial that that just really changed the game because even

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if you look back at the the bitcoin for signal campaign that happened uh a year 18 months ago

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now um there's a big push on on x jack dorsey and others pushing for for signal to add bitcoin

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indirectly that push was using cashew which is a custodial e-cash solution which is great for

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privacy like essentially perfect uh privacy on the transaction layer but requires a custodian

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to actually hold people's bitcoin and obviously one problem with that is like obviously we want

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people doing self-custody. The other problem is signal themselves as an org. If they actually

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touched custody of anyone's coins from regulatory perspective, that's a complete shift for them.

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It makes them a huge target. So they weren't going to want to do that. But honestly, when that

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campaign went, even in these last 12 or 18 months, there's been a revolution in the payments UX that's

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possible with Bitcoin while still letting people actually hold their own keys. So Spark was part

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of that have been really leading the way. Arc through both Arcade and Bark are getting there

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as well and allowing us to build tools like this where suddenly we don't need to have the user

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understand the ins and outs of Bitcoin or deal with a ton of headaches or figure out what does

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inbound liquidity mean or how do I buy inbound liquidity and how much do I need and what happens

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to it. All of that stuff goes away and people get to just make payments simply. So it's really that

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the technology for building around Bitcoin actually has gotten good enough that we can

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put it in apps where people aren't necessarily ideologues.

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People are using Signal today who have no clue what privacy is provided.

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And that was another reason why that was such a good pairing for us is Signal have hit that

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sweet spot over the years.

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So it's a sweet spot that I think many of us in the Freedom Tech space are targeting

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of how do we build underlying, incredibly impressive privacy tooling?

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but on top of it, build a user experience that is just very, very approachable,

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easy to use, and that people want to use even if they don't care about them building privacy.

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And even when you look at Signal, I have gotten all of my friends and family

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to get into the Signal network over the years. I have not convinced any of them of the need for

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broader personal privacy. I don't know if that says a lot about them or a lot about me as a poor

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evangelist, but I haven't been able to convince them about the broader need. They don't have any

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an idea how Signal itself works under the hood for privacy, but they're just there for the good

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features. And they're there because I'm there and other people that they love are there.

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And I think that's where we need to get Bitcoin to over the long term is people just use Bitcoin

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because it's the simplest, best tool for the job, not because necessarily they're ideologically

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motivated to use Bitcoin or because they embrace Bitcoin maximalism or any of this, but rather they

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just, hey, I'm already chatting with these people. Oh, I can also send value. I can pay them back for

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lunch, I can send a remittance over borders without having to worry about anything, without

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having to worry about custody, without having to worry about if it will be intercepted in the

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middle. It opens up a whole new world. And now it does it in a way that combines the people you're

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already chatting with. You don't have to start from scratch with money that is cross border,

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that is permissionless. And that's the real powerful combination. And a lot of it is that

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the tech behind it has gotten good enough that we can do that in a way where it's honestly just

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seamless.

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Yeah, well, you mentioned like Bitcoins.

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Oops, sorry, Vic.

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Sorry, I was just going to add to that.

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Just a broader, I guess something that's going to happen,

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trend that's going to happen is people are going to stop building tools

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for Bitcoin and force people to join that tool,

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but rather embed Bitcoin into existing tools and rails.

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Like Jack Dorsey did with, am I frozen?

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I'm going in and out.

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Oh, okay.

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I froze there for a second.

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like Jack Dorsey did with the Square Terminal.

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It was already an existing infrastructure,

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and he put Bitcoin Lightning in there.

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And the same thing we did in an existing messaging app,

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and we put Bitcoin in there.

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I think that'll be the trend moving forward.

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Rather than making things for just Bitcoiners,

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make things for regular folks and put Bitcoin in there.

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Yeah.

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I think diving deeper into this, more technical details,

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or maybe like the philosophy of the tech,

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like Ysignal versus something like WhatsApp

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for the layman out there.

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Like Ysignal the way in which you described it

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compared to something like WhatsApp, Telegram,

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other messaging apps, and then Bitcoin,

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obviously with the rise of the agentic economy,

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the X402 protocol,

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and the OUSD consortium bringing stable coins.

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Like why not embed a stable coin in the app?

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why start with Bitcoin?

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What, considering the use case that you're going after,

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which is private speech and sovereign money,

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like why aren't those other tools good for either speech or money?

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Or maybe not optimal for the use case that you're going for specifically.

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Yeah, I guess we could give a basic reason

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and get into more of the technicalities.

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Signal made sense because it's open source.

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There's no corporation behind it.

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It's an organization, a nonprofit organization.

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But main thing that it's open source and we could work that right away.

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And it's the, like I said, it's a gold standard of privacy.

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Like Seth said, it's a gold standard of privacy that makes privacy easy.

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You don't even know you're being private.

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And Bitcoin, Bitcoin Lightning made sense.

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It's fast, instant.

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It can do very, very small payments.

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stable coins i mean i think that's something we're considering in the future either giving

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users a choice to automatically convert to stable coins so they don't see their

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value fluctuating like you may with bitcoin it would be a great feature for non-bitcoiners where

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they open up the app and they just see a usd balance they don't have to worry about they don't

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even have to know that it's bitcoin lightning in the back so we're kicking those ideas around

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And I guess from a more technical reason why we chose SignalSeth to get into that, why we chose Lightning.

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Yeah, I mean, the pairing is very intentional because I think something that we, like I know you all have been talking about for a long time on the show, Marty and Odell's and being the drum on is like the stuff needs to be freedom tech.

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It needs to be something that enables the individual.

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And so the underlying messaging tool that we use had to be something that was censorship resistant, privacy preserving.

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Other apps claim that WhatsApp, Telegram famously claim that all the time about that they're a privacy messenger, but they're just they're not.

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They're not at all.

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They kind of use that as a marketing veneer, something to put on what they're actually building, but it's not core to what they're doing.

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And even when they do it there are a ton of drawbacks and caveats to the actual privacy preserved or to who has access to those chats even if they aren encrypted WhatsApp for instance those chats can easily be sent as well to Facebook and they get access to all the chats So they end to end to end encrypted in many scenarios where they are accessible by third parties So Signal yeah

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I mean, it's the standard for privacy preserving messaging. So we wanted a really good base to go

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with there. Also, messaging protocols are very complex and you can go wrong in many different

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ways. And so being able to use what is the gold standard of messaging protocols out of the box was

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also a huge win for us. So we didn't have to reinvent the wheel there. There are some other

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messengers that are doing really cool things with reinventing the wheel in terms of messaging

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protocols. Simplex, for instance, have done a great job there. But we wanted to lean into

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something that was very established and set in stone on the messenger side. And then obviously,

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like why Bitcoin? It's the same reasons. We want freedom tech to be paired with freedom money.

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We want it to be that we want the bones, the rails, at least to be Bitcoin no matter what.

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So like even when we talk about exploring stable coins in the future, those are only

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stable coins that live on Bitcoin.

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So like specifically, we're using Spark under the hood.

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Those would be stable coins on Spark.

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So yes, in theory, those stable coins have different trust models.

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Like some of them can be frozen, not necessarily all of them, but some of them can be frozen

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remotely, even if you have your own keys.

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So obviously, they're not filling the same freedom money space.

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but when we're talking about people who just want to be able to send remittances back to

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south america maybe they don't want to deal with the volatility of bitcoin so i think giving users

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that choice but doing it in a way that is still they hold the keys to that still lives on the

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bitcoin rails and the very important piece to me is it gives them the add a tap in a second ability

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to swap between those stable coins and bitcoin and get to permissionless money very quickly

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I think something we're going to see with stable coins is it's all fun and games until your tether gets frozen, your stable coins get frozen.

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And as people experience that more and more, as the pain of that comes more and more, we'll see that people want to shift to hard money, to something that is more censorship resistant.

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So enabling that rail to be able to switch at a tap from your stable coins to Bitcoin when you need a kind of a flight to safety, that's really critical to us as well.

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yeah i mean another this is a topic i really want to dive down because back i know you and i have

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been talking about this a lot which is the the emergence of vibe coding and i had uh francis

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pull out from bullet bitcoin on earlier this week like they're in a sued the french government for

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an infringement on privacy rights to their customers via the the dak 8 legislation that

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or regulations that went live earlier this year

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and that BullBitcoin is expected to report on early next year.

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And like I said earlier, it seems like the attack on privacy,

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the attack on individual sovereignty in the digital age

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is being waged at an accelerating pace.

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But it also seems like the ability to combat that

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with the building out of FreedomTech tools is encouraging,

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I would say. And I think I'm very curious to get your thoughts on historically

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the knock on freedom or not the knock, like the, the lack of adoption of freedom tech has

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been because of the convenience factor. It's not as convenient as the, the closed source,

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um, or walled garden tech that makes everything easy out of the box. And is, do you think with

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the emergence of vibe coding or just the maturation of the freedom tech protocols and the development

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sort of concentration around these protocols that we do have the ability to compete with the

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closed sourced platforms and technologies that really make the trade-off of convenience

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or privacy in favor of convenience,

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or your lack of privacy,

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but you get way more convenient experiences.

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Do you think we're getting the feature parity

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and UX parity in the freedom of privacy space?

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So I think the genie's out of the bottle, right?

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I'm one of those people that believe

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that the will of the people does win out in the end.

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governments, regulators can keep fighting something, but the people want it and do it.

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And you saw that happen with Bitcoin, right? In the early days, you remember in 2012, 13, there's

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so much FUD that was going to get banned. The government's going to crack down. And eventually

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it got so big that they couldn't ignore it, that these people are trading value in billions.

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And regulators finally looked at it, governments finally looked at it and said,

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okay we need to somehow bring this into the fold um as far as freedom tech is concerned i think it

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goes along the same line you can't dock code uh if i publish some code somewhere take take

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k quality for example right it's open source we can go away tomorrow government's been shut us

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down let's say but you can download the code and you can build it yourself and i think your vibe

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coding um references is really applicable here because before you know three years ago somebody

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gives you a code hey you can download kick wallet and build it yourself like well i don't know how

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to do that i'm not a not a developer i'm not a coder but now with with a you can just feed that

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into cloud or a chad chifati and boom it'll make you an app and the ux ui reference you made i mean

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And Elon Musk last year tweeted out, because of AI, user interface is dead.

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And he's right, because on the fly, you can have it look whatever the way you want it to look.

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You can take the cake code and say, here, build me a wallet, but make it look completely different.

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Do something that you like.

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So now you can do very custom user experience the way you want it.

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Hide information you don't want, show information you want, features that you want, features that you don't want.

259
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You can control everything.

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A side note, does that worry me about cake? Well, yes, it does. But I think in the long term, not thinking selfishly, thinking selflessly, I think in the long term, this is all going to contribute to Freedom Tech and the use of Freedom Tech and accessibility to Freedom Tech to the regular folks.

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I think all these efforts by the EU and things is futile.

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Yeah, I think it like vibe coding also enhances the the overall uplift that comes with open source code, because one of the really nice things about open source code is like for us as a business, we can't compete on a intellectual property mode.

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Like like you mentioned at Cake Wallet, like you can go download the code right now, the exact code that we're publishing to all of our users, and you can go build it and you can go customize it in whatever way you want.

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not going to necessarily recommend like vibe coding complex changes to a wallet that's

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self-custodial because obviously there are risks there but you can do that today and so what it

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means is that us as a company we have to compete very aggressively for users by building what they

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want we can't just sit back and say like okay we built we built something it's locked behind ip

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ip laws we're just going to do the bare minimum and keep it alive and just keep people locked in

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with a subscription for a decade.

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Like that world is dead.

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That world used to exist.

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That world is dead now.

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And that's a really good thing

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because it means that the actual in tools

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that get in people's hands

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are much more competitive

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and are much more built for them.

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I think the other thing,

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like Vic touched on this with UI UX

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on the design side,

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one of the really exciting things

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about Vibe Coding

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is not just the backend code side,

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which I think is what most people think about

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when they think about Vibe Coding.

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but actually ai is really good and getting much better on the design side if you know what you

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want and if you have a good idea on in terms of brand that sort of thing like a good example of

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that is the website for radar radar.chat uh i built that but it was built from a really good

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brand that jaime our head of brand came up with good logos color palettes all of that so like it

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still needed good underlying building blocks with good uh messaging system that was built by folks

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at Neural Radar, helped us out on the marketing side. But then I was able to build a really

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beautiful website. I'm not a designer or a developer, but I knew what I wanted and I had

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good building blocks. And the ability to do that is something that I think has been a problem in

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the FreedomTech space for a long time. Usually it's very technical people who have a vision for

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what the technology needs to be, but have a hard time translating that into a beautiful user-friendly

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product. But there's really good tooling now on the AI side in terms of design review,

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in terms of the actual like building the websites

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and the front end side of things as well

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that can let us build FreedomTech

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that's really beautiful, intuitive and approachable

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and easy to use at the same time,

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which is a big shift as well in this space.

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What's up freaks?

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00:22:23,488 --> 00:22:26,188
This episode is brought to you by Blox Bitcoin ecosystem.

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319
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unchained.com. I said, speaking of shifts, let's shift back to radar specifically, because I think

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00:24:22,728 --> 00:24:29,048
it would be remiss for us not to dive into some of the details. One of the most important to me

335
00:24:29,048 --> 00:24:35,908
is the fact it's completely interoperable with Signal right now. And I think that

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00:24:35,908 --> 00:24:39,848
for you guys as massive,

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like the ability to back up your signal key

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and your encrypted key

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00:24:46,508 --> 00:24:48,108
and then upload it into Radar

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and then have your chats there in the Radar app

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is a massive 3UX boon

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because the thought of downloading a fork of signal

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and trying to rebuild your contact list

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and reach out to people to start new chats

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is a bit cumbersome.

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So I think the ability to basically onboard yourself on the radar and have it in a way where it's like, oh, it's just picking up all your signal chat history that you're using as an everyday driver makes that sort of adoption hurdle much smoother.

347
00:25:23,768 --> 00:25:26,148
It's not even a hurdle. It makes that adoption curve much smoother.

348
00:25:26,148 --> 00:25:52,388
Yeah. I mean, like Seth and I have been using Radar as our primary signal client for four months now. And I messaged you on there. You can't tell I'm using another app or anything. And it works seamlessly. And like I said earlier, that's what we wanted. We wanted to enter something that's already there and not try to bring people into a whole new thing and learn something completely new.

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So I'm glad to hear that's being accepted well.

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00:25:56,728 --> 00:26:12,456
Although we did think it was obvious that people should back up their signal first and then restore from backup We adding a little splash page to the next update which will warn people hey before you move any further go do this on signal first

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Your signal will stop working.

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00:26:16,316 --> 00:26:18,756
Of course, you can link it on another device like your desktop.

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00:26:18,916 --> 00:26:25,076
You can still run signal on your desktop or another phone if you have it as a link device, but not as a primary device.

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00:26:25,076 --> 00:26:32,436
if you want to use the bitcoin features of radar um but yeah like like you pointed out that was

355
00:26:32,436 --> 00:26:38,436
important for us to to bring it to something that already exists rather than making something brand

356
00:26:39,156 --> 00:26:44,276
and to really drive it home to people i mean just for those who are listening we're unaware like how

357
00:26:44,276 --> 00:26:51,636
big is signal how many users do they have and how many potential over a million yeah yeah i think

358
00:26:51,636 --> 00:26:56,816
Yeah, like 100 to 150 million monthly active users, just for clarity on the specifics of

359
00:26:56,816 --> 00:26:57,816
the number.

360
00:26:57,816 --> 00:27:01,296
Obviously, way more than that in terms of downloads and potential users, but monthly

361
00:27:01,296 --> 00:27:03,916
active somewhere between 100 to 150 million.

362
00:27:03,916 --> 00:27:07,136
So huge, huge audience and one that is growing very rapidly.

363
00:27:07,136 --> 00:27:08,136
Yeah.

364
00:27:08,136 --> 00:27:12,116
I mean, well, I'm set to your use case.

365
00:27:12,116 --> 00:27:13,116
You mentioned your family.

366
00:27:13,116 --> 00:27:14,116
You don't realize the privacy type.

367
00:27:14,116 --> 00:27:20,036
But you have to imagine a large portion of that user base is in it for the tech, for the

368
00:27:20,036 --> 00:27:22,756
privacy because they realize the benefits of it.

369
00:27:24,096 --> 00:27:25,896
Was that part of the intent, too,

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is slowly sort of orange pill signal users

371
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or the signal foundation itself?

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It would be a win.

373
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I think they want to stick to messaging, though.

374
00:27:36,336 --> 00:27:37,196
I don't know.

375
00:27:37,596 --> 00:27:39,176
I haven't spoken to anyone there,

376
00:27:39,296 --> 00:27:41,536
but they do messaging well.

377
00:27:41,616 --> 00:27:42,636
They do privacy well.

378
00:27:43,476 --> 00:27:45,476
Yeah, I mean, like we talked about a little bit, too,

379
00:27:45,476 --> 00:27:54,676
The vision here is not that this is just for hardcore Bitcoiners who already know about Bitcoin, already use it.

380
00:27:54,756 --> 00:27:56,296
It's not just to be another wallet app.

381
00:27:56,916 --> 00:28:01,316
There's plenty of wallet apps out there right now, honestly.

382
00:28:01,816 --> 00:28:03,756
That's not what was needed here.

383
00:28:04,716 --> 00:28:12,936
So a huge part of this, too, is Signal users already have clearly a desire to move outside of the existing system in terms of messaging.

384
00:28:12,936 --> 00:28:17,656
but the vast majority of them are not bitcoiners i would guess there's definitely some crossover

385
00:28:17,656 --> 00:28:22,616
it's hard to obviously estimate exactly what that crossover is but signal is heavily used within at

386
00:28:22,616 --> 00:28:27,696
least all the bitcoin circles that i'm in so there there is a good crossover there there's also a lot

387
00:28:27,696 --> 00:28:32,296
of users like we talked about who are just there because of the network effect they're because of

388
00:28:32,296 --> 00:28:37,396
maybe the privacy like it's starting to become a little bit like that um it's becoming a normal

389
00:28:37,396 --> 00:28:40,996
thing that people understand is like if you want a private conversation it happens in signal

390
00:28:40,996 --> 00:28:46,476
um actually that was funny the other day on a just a sports podcast that i listened to

391
00:28:46,476 --> 00:28:50,556
they mentioned that maybe they should start a signal chat for their their private conversations

392
00:28:50,556 --> 00:28:55,636
because they shouldn't have it in uh in sms anymore or something that's it's becoming something

393
00:28:55,636 --> 00:28:59,956
that's become just kind of a cultural norm of if you have something private you do it in signal

394
00:28:59,956 --> 00:29:03,976
but it's also just a draw to people because it's a really good cross-platform messenger as well

395
00:29:03,976 --> 00:29:09,356
um so the goal is far beyond just the the hardcore bitcoiners like obviously not that we

396
00:29:09,356 --> 00:29:12,496
don't want hardcore Bitcoiners like that. I think they'll be the first adopters,

397
00:29:12,596 --> 00:29:18,496
definitely the tier one audience here. But the reason we've made it so honestly, like stupid,

398
00:29:18,696 --> 00:29:22,716
simple to use is because we want it to be something that anyone who's familiar with any

399
00:29:22,716 --> 00:29:27,396
other payments app can do this. You don't have to understand Bitcoin. You don't even have to

400
00:29:27,396 --> 00:29:31,236
necessarily back up your seed phrase. Like you can manually back it up and we prompt you to do

401
00:29:31,236 --> 00:29:36,516
that when you first receive funds. But we're able to back up your seed phrase directly and

402
00:29:36,516 --> 00:29:40,136
and encrypted into your signal profile. So that when you log into, if you lose your old phone,

403
00:29:40,196 --> 00:29:43,656
you log into a new device, all your stats come with you. You don't have to do anything for that.

404
00:29:43,736 --> 00:29:47,276
You don't have to remember that you had a separate seed phrase. It automatically comes back up

405
00:29:47,276 --> 00:29:52,656
without any issues. And that's the real impetus here behind all the decisions we're making is

406
00:29:52,656 --> 00:29:57,556
we're not going to add additional complexity that you would have in a fully featured Bitcoin wallet.

407
00:29:58,076 --> 00:30:02,936
We're not going to add a ton of bells and whistles. It's very much meant to be. How simply

408
00:30:02,936 --> 00:30:08,836
can we show people how powerful Bitcoin is as a payment reel, as a value transfer system,

409
00:30:09,396 --> 00:30:16,296
and really start to bring back that peer-to-peer digital cash method of exchange side of Bitcoin

410
00:30:16,296 --> 00:30:20,736
and make that something that people are doing and get it snowballing so that people who are

411
00:30:20,736 --> 00:30:25,016
not even Bitcoiners are using it because of how simple it is. And that's where I think the real

412
00:30:25,016 --> 00:30:31,416
value will be down the line. What in your mind would make this a success? What are you looking

413
00:30:31,416 --> 00:30:38,856
for what um what expectations do you have for this out of the gate and what would make you guys

414
00:30:38,856 --> 00:30:48,616
extremely happy to see in terms of user interactions with radar i mean in terms of users who knows

415
00:30:50,376 --> 00:30:56,136
i had to throw a number on it i don't know 10 of what signal has 10 i think we get even 10 of what

416
00:30:56,136 --> 00:31:02,776
they have around 10 million users which would be fantastic i mean just for comparison cake has 2

417
00:31:02,776 --> 00:31:08,456
million users but cake is cryptocurrency wallet that's what it is it does nothing else it's a

418
00:31:08,456 --> 00:31:13,016
cryptocurrency you're a crypto person you want a wallet and you download that but radar isn't about

419
00:31:13,016 --> 00:31:21,336
that so i think we can exceed the user base in terms of numbers compared to cake wallet i think

420
00:31:21,336 --> 00:31:28,296
that would be a huge success um and i think as we talked earlier i think we would have to kind of

421
00:31:28,296 --> 00:31:35,336
shift away from bitcoin and and do stablecoin type of thing to try to get those to get to those numbers

422
00:31:36,056 --> 00:31:42,296
um by the way i wanted i missed one of the factors you asked me what were one of the factors that

423
00:31:42,296 --> 00:31:48,856
led us to making radar another weird factor was and you know this already and you've heard this

424
00:31:48,856 --> 00:31:51,416
people say, hey, Vic, why don't you make a Bitcoin-only wallet?

425
00:31:52,056 --> 00:31:53,856
Cake is great, but I'm not going to touch it.

426
00:31:54,156 --> 00:31:55,876
A lot of Bitcoin maxis say that, right?

427
00:31:56,016 --> 00:32:02,136
So this is also kind of our way to put a Bitcoin-only wallet out there.

428
00:32:03,096 --> 00:32:04,356
So that was kind of interesting.

429
00:32:05,456 --> 00:32:12,116
But yeah, I think if we – just in terms of pure numbers,

430
00:32:12,176 --> 00:32:16,336
I think if we can get 10% of signal, in my mind, that would be a huge success.

431
00:32:18,856 --> 00:32:25,936
And who knows after that, if people continue to see the value in decentralized instant

432
00:32:25,936 --> 00:32:33,956
answer of value, which is what Bitcoin is meant to be, then that number could go whatever from there.

433
00:32:35,036 --> 00:32:41,356
Yeah, I think an interesting outcome too would be, obviously, we've not been able to reach

434
00:32:41,356 --> 00:32:45,336
signal, but it'd be interesting to see what their thoughts are about this long term too.

435
00:32:45,336 --> 00:32:48,916
Like, will they want to integrate Bitcoin as a result of this?

436
00:32:48,916 --> 00:32:52,296
Like, will they will they want to add some functionality like this?

437
00:32:52,296 --> 00:32:54,136
Well, we'll see long term what that looks like.

438
00:32:54,136 --> 00:33:00,056
But I think this could also be just a huge proving ground for the desire and demand

439
00:33:00,516 --> 00:33:05,216
for Bitcoin support in messengers overall and can show how this can compete on a user experience

440
00:33:05,216 --> 00:33:11,856
perspective with the custodial bank fiat centralized options that are the norm right now

441
00:33:11,856 --> 00:33:18,496
in the the alipay in the uh all of the other payment systems that are in messengers today that

442
00:33:18,496 --> 00:33:26,416
are on the just regular fiat banking rails yeah and i'm thinking back to your your comments earlier

443
00:33:26,416 --> 00:33:32,096
about being in china vic and pulling out wechat or alipay whatever it may be like your chat app is

444
00:33:32,096 --> 00:33:38,816
your payment mechanism and i mean china is an example of i think how to how to do it wrong at

445
00:33:38,816 --> 00:33:46,896
scale and it's interesting that this this teacher is all direct with the surveillance is yes and

446
00:33:46,896 --> 00:33:55,456
it's funny that we haven't we haven't really had a wechat like app at critical mass in the us yet

447
00:33:55,456 --> 00:34:02,496
which is probably a good thing considering um if facebook i mean facebook i think probably tried to

448
00:34:02,496 --> 00:34:05,296
to do a Libra before they shelved that.

449
00:34:05,296 --> 00:34:15,596
But really honing in on the potential to create a WeChat or Alipay-like super app in the United

450
00:34:15,596 --> 00:34:24,216
States for a global audience that is privacy-preserving is extremely encouraging.

451
00:34:26,216 --> 00:34:28,296
Yeah, I see this as...

452
00:34:28,296 --> 00:34:31,436
Go ahead, go.

453
00:34:32,496 --> 00:34:41,616
now i think we chat i see this as a open source private messaging decentralized payments this

454
00:34:41,616 --> 00:34:48,576
version of we chat if that makes sense um it's it's doing the same thing you can message and

455
00:34:48,576 --> 00:34:54,896
you can send value but you're doing in a private and decentralized and self-custodial way yeah

456
00:34:55,536 --> 00:34:59,936
and i think i mean seth while i have you here i think you're very eloquent in describing this for

457
00:34:59,936 --> 00:35:07,456
For everybody listening who may be one of the, I have nothing to hide, so I'm going to make the convenience trade off.

458
00:35:08,736 --> 00:35:10,476
Why is privacy important?

459
00:35:10,716 --> 00:35:12,476
Why should people care about it, especially today?

460
00:35:13,516 --> 00:35:17,756
Yeah, I mean, the underlying reasons I'm sure most people have heard at this point.

461
00:35:17,756 --> 00:35:25,136
But the interesting thing to me is this, like, I have nothing to hide kind of hithy statement that's become the normal retort.

462
00:35:25,496 --> 00:35:27,956
I think that sentiment is kind of dead.

463
00:35:27,956 --> 00:35:30,996
I don't think that's really how people feel anymore.

464
00:35:31,156 --> 00:35:35,136
And I think there's been a concerted shift, especially over the last five, six years,

465
00:35:35,976 --> 00:35:41,896
for people to understand after finally seeing all of the problems that come with a lack of privacy,

466
00:35:43,176 --> 00:35:45,636
that people are starting to understand this does actually matter.

467
00:35:46,296 --> 00:35:49,916
And I think the sentiment now is much more, what are the tools?

468
00:35:50,096 --> 00:35:54,076
Are there actually tools that I can use that aren't too painful to gain privacy?

469
00:35:54,636 --> 00:35:56,036
And that's been the huge gap there.

470
00:35:56,036 --> 00:36:05,016
I think like Signal is a great example of that, where a good privacy tool needs to feel as easy to use as one that is not privacy preserving.

471
00:36:05,296 --> 00:36:07,756
Like we have to care about the user experience here.

472
00:36:08,696 --> 00:36:12,076
And so for the for the core of like, why does this matter?

473
00:36:13,116 --> 00:36:17,696
Ultimately, the things that you do, the people you message and the people you pay.

474
00:36:18,916 --> 00:36:20,296
Tell everything about you.

475
00:36:20,796 --> 00:36:24,856
If I can see who you're talking to, even if I can't see the message contents themselves.

476
00:36:24,856 --> 00:36:31,936
And if I can see who you're paying when, I can pretty much figure out everything else about your life.

477
00:36:32,056 --> 00:36:46,116
And no matter what other things you care about or what other rights you think are being protected, if you don't have the ability to protect your conversations and your transactions, your actual financial history, everything else falls apart very quickly.

478
00:36:46,996 --> 00:36:51,596
And so that's the huge impetus here is like we can solve both of those at the same time.

479
00:36:51,596 --> 00:36:53,796
Signal already solved the messaging side.

480
00:36:53,796 --> 00:36:58,796
let's latch onto that and make the most of the already existing protocol network that's there

481
00:36:58,796 --> 00:37:05,756
and then let's bring the the financial side of that home at the same time but again i think that

482
00:37:05,756 --> 00:37:11,096
the critical thing for people is not i don't care about privacy especially when you talk about

483
00:37:11,096 --> 00:37:15,836
financial privacy like no one is going to ever give you their bank record or their credit card

484
00:37:15,836 --> 00:37:20,336
statement or anything like that they they would never publish that online like they they do there's

485
00:37:20,336 --> 00:37:26,116
a natural innate desire for privacy, especially financial privacy, but privacy more generally.

486
00:37:27,096 --> 00:37:32,556
And when we can actually do that in a way that feels like I'm not sacrificing too much from a

487
00:37:32,556 --> 00:37:35,736
convenience perspective, that's the huge breakthrough for people. I think that's why

488
00:37:35,736 --> 00:37:39,376
we've seen Signal be so successful when it comes to messengers. I think that's why we've seen

489
00:37:39,376 --> 00:37:44,656
Proton be so successful with their suite of tools that they offer, is that they get very close to

490
00:37:44,656 --> 00:37:49,936
the same user experience of the centralized surveil tools, but they also give you strong

491
00:37:49,936 --> 00:37:55,516
privacy. And that's what people want. I mean, you even look at Apple and others,

492
00:37:55,596 --> 00:38:00,256
their marketing campaigns are heavily focused on privacy these days. That's not just because

493
00:38:00,256 --> 00:38:04,076
they feel like they might want to care about privacy. It's because people are actually

494
00:38:04,076 --> 00:38:09,296
seriously considering which thing will I buy, which tool will I use based on if it does give

495
00:38:09,296 --> 00:38:15,756
some level of privacy at the end of the day. Yeah, I think Apple's been, I don't know if it's

496
00:38:15,756 --> 00:38:19,856
reports of Apple talking about having mini models

497
00:38:19,856 --> 00:38:22,676
on the iPhone using the secure enclave.

498
00:38:22,676 --> 00:38:26,776
I think that's another thing, the emergence of AI

499
00:38:26,776 --> 00:38:30,676
and particularly the frontier

500
00:38:30,676 --> 00:38:34,996
models, the leaders being anthropic and open AI.

501
00:38:35,876 --> 00:38:40,836
Funnily enough, Alex Karp from Palantir made a pretty eloquent

502
00:38:40,836 --> 00:38:44,776
point highlighting the privacy trade-offs that a lot of enterprise

503
00:38:44,776 --> 00:38:50,116
clients of these frontier model providers are making in terms of giving up all your IP.

504
00:38:50,856 --> 00:38:56,636
And it's funny that this AI revolution may force people who previously did not care,

505
00:38:57,516 --> 00:39:10,484
or at least do not appear to care that much about privacy it may force them to as they thinking about how they share their data with these frontier model providers Yeah absolutely That one of the other really cool things about

506
00:39:10,964 --> 00:39:16,484
like, as the technology gets better, we can actually do powerful things in a privacy-preserving way

507
00:39:16,484 --> 00:39:20,524
much better at the same time. I mean, that's even like when we're talking about, like,

508
00:39:20,544 --> 00:39:25,124
how we're able to do Bitcoin within radar, like, that was impossible two years ago. And that's not

509
00:39:25,124 --> 00:39:29,584
necessarily because of hardware changes, but that's because people figured out new good ways

510
00:39:29,584 --> 00:39:34,424
to be able to do things in a self-custodial manner. That shift has come to AI as well. And that's where

511
00:39:34,424 --> 00:39:40,064
everything is also faster when you're doing on-device compute when it comes to AI. There's

512
00:39:40,064 --> 00:39:45,264
another incentive that makes people want that. They maybe aren't thinking as deeply about the

513
00:39:45,264 --> 00:39:48,624
privacy, even though that is becoming more and more of a conversation around like, do I want to

514
00:39:48,624 --> 00:39:53,564
run local models? But at the same time, when you can run something locally, the questions you ask

515
00:39:53,564 --> 00:39:57,684
against it are much, much faster than when you have to go out to the cloud. Your network connection

516
00:39:57,684 --> 00:40:02,124
could be flaky. All of those problems could exist. If you can do that in a local model at a very high

517
00:40:02,124 --> 00:40:07,344
speed, that changes the game in terms of user experience and privacy. You kind of can Trojan

518
00:40:07,344 --> 00:40:12,944
horse the privacy in under the user experience, guys. All right, freaks, you know me. You know,

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548
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Dealing into secure enclaves, this is an area I think has been very underexplored.

549
00:42:48,864 --> 00:42:57,324
Shout out to the team at Maple AI for bringing private LLMs via secure enclaves,

550
00:42:57,464 --> 00:43:00,084
like truly private LLMs compared to something like Venice.

551
00:43:02,084 --> 00:43:06,224
I think their design choices are incredibly wise.

552
00:43:06,224 --> 00:43:11,064
and I think the leveraging of secure enclaves

553
00:43:11,064 --> 00:43:12,584
is an underexplored area

554
00:43:12,584 --> 00:43:14,344
and it's encouraging to see companies

555
00:43:14,344 --> 00:43:18,244
like Enclavia from Alexis, Fellini

556
00:43:18,244 --> 00:43:19,904
come to market

557
00:43:19,904 --> 00:43:24,784
and just exploring that design space

558
00:43:24,784 --> 00:43:27,624
is something that seems underappreciated

559
00:43:27,624 --> 00:43:28,424
to me right now.

560
00:43:28,724 --> 00:43:30,564
How would you describe the potential there?

561
00:43:30,764 --> 00:43:32,124
You mentioned eCash earlier.

562
00:43:32,124 --> 00:43:45,344
I know Calais is exploring sort of these e-cash mints that live in the enclave that are cryptographically provable that the operator can't really control them to some extent at the end of the day.

563
00:43:46,084 --> 00:43:54,624
What are we missing in the market by not leveraging secure enclaves to their full potential right now?

564
00:43:55,484 --> 00:43:57,064
Yeah, they're really interesting.

565
00:43:57,224 --> 00:43:58,744
I mean, like, oh, go ahead, Vic.

566
00:43:58,744 --> 00:44:01,764
No, I was going to say specifically for AI, you mean?

567
00:44:02,124 --> 00:44:05,044
For everything, right?

568
00:44:05,644 --> 00:44:07,084
Yeah, for everything.

569
00:44:08,164 --> 00:44:15,324
Yeah, I mean, I think Seth and I were kicking the idea around just a few weeks ago about there needs to be more providers.

570
00:44:16,204 --> 00:44:22,144
Because obviously, host your own hardware with this enclave is going to be super expensive.

571
00:44:22,144 --> 00:44:24,484
So we were kicking around the idea.

572
00:44:24,584 --> 00:44:26,484
Maybe that's a business model we should get into.

573
00:44:26,484 --> 00:44:32,604
provide AI service that's in the enclave.

574
00:44:33,804 --> 00:44:35,944
But isn't BitTensor doing that?

575
00:44:36,944 --> 00:44:40,264
Or do they have a version where you can choose to run the AI

576
00:44:40,264 --> 00:44:41,724
within some enclave?

577
00:44:43,764 --> 00:44:45,244
Yeah, I'm not sure on BitTensor,

578
00:44:45,484 --> 00:44:50,384
but I know NVIDIA is launching the GPUs with the Nitro enclaves in them,

579
00:44:50,384 --> 00:44:54,204
so it makes sense that anybody who wanted to could put an LLM in there.

580
00:44:54,204 --> 00:44:59,364
yeah yeah i think it's i think it's definitely in the future yeah it's becoming much more normal

581
00:44:59,364 --> 00:45:07,344
and that's yeah yeah i was just gonna say it's becoming much more normal because like that

582
00:45:07,344 --> 00:45:14,824
that demand for privacy is not just a personal thing as well like the the primary driver

583
00:45:14,824 --> 00:45:23,284
for privacy at scale with the ai space is enterprises i mean if you're if you're a business

584
00:45:23,284 --> 00:45:28,724
who are dealing with sensitive internal data all the time you don't want to be dumping all of that

585
00:45:28,724 --> 00:45:36,264
into clod or to chat gpt like they're huge huge potential issues with you touching anything like

586
00:45:36,264 --> 00:45:40,944
that if you're dealing with customer data if you're dealing with like hipaa specific data all

587
00:45:40,944 --> 00:45:46,284
of these specific use cases for ai at scale you need those so it's already something i mean like

588
00:45:46,284 --> 00:45:52,124
this is not a new technology secure enclaves are quite ancient technology at this point your phone

589
00:45:52,124 --> 00:45:57,324
has had a secure enclave in it for the last decade plus in the Android and iOS space.

590
00:45:57,744 --> 00:46:02,984
And it uses it for a lot of the functionality and the security of the device itself.

591
00:46:03,444 --> 00:46:09,424
But I think the real shift now is that because of the way we can actually leverage this,

592
00:46:09,604 --> 00:46:12,624
especially on the AI side, like there are definitely other use cases, but I think

593
00:46:12,624 --> 00:46:17,944
a lot of times secure enclaves kind of get overblown and people forget about what the

594
00:46:17,944 --> 00:46:22,804
The downsides and risks are too, where they are very centralized.

595
00:46:23,284 --> 00:46:24,624
They're extraordinarily expensive.

596
00:46:24,844 --> 00:46:29,104
They're not something that a normal person can host at home or would have access to.

597
00:46:29,104 --> 00:46:32,424
And they are very much a trusted system.

598
00:46:33,464 --> 00:46:39,564
A single entity has the root keys to actually provision all of those secure enclaves.

599
00:46:40,144 --> 00:46:44,024
So obviously, you're trusting with an Intel SGX, you're trusting Intel themselves.

600
00:46:44,184 --> 00:46:47,644
There have been a lot of breaks in Intel SGX secure enclaves over the years.

601
00:46:47,944 --> 00:46:53,524
uh, NVIDIA, you're trusting NVIDIA, Amazon, Nitro, you're trusting Amazon, like all of these

602
00:46:53,524 --> 00:46:59,364
services, you are trusting the provider still in some ways to be honest and to be secure,

603
00:46:59,364 --> 00:47:03,964
to not leak those root keys or actually set them to null or something like that. Some of that stuff

604
00:47:03,964 --> 00:47:09,344
has happened in the past, but the things that it unlocks are a huge, huge shift. Like you,

605
00:47:09,344 --> 00:47:14,624
like you said, Maple has been a kind of a revelation because like when I'm thinking about

606
00:47:14,624 --> 00:47:17,084
how am I going to be using AI?

607
00:47:17,464 --> 00:47:19,224
It's similar to how I think about chats

608
00:47:19,224 --> 00:47:22,464
where like I will self-censor

609
00:47:22,464 --> 00:47:24,684
subconsciously or consciously

610
00:47:24,684 --> 00:47:27,304
if I know that the thing that I say

611
00:47:27,304 --> 00:47:29,184
is going to a third party

612
00:47:29,184 --> 00:47:30,704
that I don't know what they're going to do with that data.

613
00:47:31,244 --> 00:47:32,424
There are some things like I just,

614
00:47:32,544 --> 00:47:34,264
I will not put into Claude

615
00:47:34,264 --> 00:47:37,044
because I don't want to trust it with that

616
00:47:37,044 --> 00:47:38,464
or I don't want to know that about me.

617
00:47:39,464 --> 00:47:40,984
I even talking yesterday to somebody

618
00:47:40,984 --> 00:47:43,124
who I know doesn't care that much about personal privacy.

619
00:47:43,124 --> 00:47:47,304
I was helping with some financial stuff and just giving him some some tips around that. And

620
00:47:47,304 --> 00:47:51,204
he was like, I want to learn more about all the financial tools that like help me

621
00:47:51,204 --> 00:47:56,324
see the details about what I'm doing with my money. I know that all that data is being mined.

622
00:47:56,364 --> 00:48:00,544
And he wasn't sure how to go about that. But something like Maple is a fantastic solution for

623
00:48:00,544 --> 00:48:05,084
hey, I can upload my bank statements into this and know that they're not being leaked to a third

624
00:48:05,084 --> 00:48:10,184
party or being used to train AI. So it's all the same the same principles that went into radar and

625
00:48:10,184 --> 00:48:18,264
into Cake Wallet. Our core to Bitcoin right now is there's a freedom of expression and honestly,

626
00:48:18,384 --> 00:48:21,444
like a weight being lifted off your shoulders when you know that the thing that you're doing

627
00:48:21,444 --> 00:48:27,844
is private and that you're getting to choose who knows about it. Obviously, it's not about being

628
00:48:27,844 --> 00:48:32,944
this anonymous, super shadowy hacker in the woods. It's about you getting to choose who knows about

629
00:48:32,944 --> 00:48:36,744
it. If you and your spouse want to sit down and go through your bank statements and get insight

630
00:48:36,744 --> 00:48:40,264
into that and ask questions about it. You should be able to do that in a way that only you and your

631
00:48:40,264 --> 00:48:45,004
spouse see that info. If you want to have a conversation with your brothers in a group chat

632
00:48:45,004 --> 00:48:48,604
and talk about sensitive stuff about your childhood or something, you should be able to do that without

633
00:48:48,604 --> 00:48:52,044
worrying about like, what's Facebook going to think when they read through this about what

634
00:48:52,044 --> 00:48:57,284
happened or like those things need to be able to happen freely. And that only happens in a space

635
00:48:57,284 --> 00:49:01,604
that is privacy preserving. So secure enclaves are a huge part of that for the AI side, obviously not

636
00:49:01,604 --> 00:49:06,544
necessarily as applicable on the chat side, even though, as I mentioned, that signal heavily

637
00:49:06,544 --> 00:49:11,664
uses intel sgx secure enclaves for the server infrastructure on the signal side to provide some

638
00:49:11,664 --> 00:49:17,744
of the provable attestable privacy that's built into the the signal protocol so it's a big part

639
00:49:17,744 --> 00:49:23,744
of that as well hey guys if i could just interrupt i know you gotta hop off here yeah yeah i gotta

640
00:49:23,744 --> 00:49:28,784
hop off you guys continue of course thanks thanks for having me on really appreciate it am i getting

641
00:49:28,784 --> 00:49:34,384
broken thank you for coming thank you for building and launching radar like i said desperately need

642
00:49:34,384 --> 00:49:39,384
a product been waiting for a while as you're describing that like i saw a tweet yesterday and

643
00:49:39,384 --> 00:49:45,604
it's it's always i mean the samurai guys everyone free samurai but like talking to kian over the

644
00:49:45,604 --> 00:49:51,744
years i think the the example of like you have blinds in your house like that's a that's uh

645
00:49:51,744 --> 00:49:57,624
an explicit use of privacy technology as blinds you don't want people looking in your windows and

646
00:49:57,624 --> 00:50:05,064
I saw somebody tweeting yesterday about envelopes, like mail.

647
00:50:05,064 --> 00:50:08,824
Like when you mail something to another individual,

648
00:50:09,044 --> 00:50:12,764
it's in an envelope that's sealed and meant expressly for that person.

649
00:50:12,884 --> 00:50:17,104
These are privacy technologies that are surrounding us every day

650
00:50:17,104 --> 00:50:21,524
that people take for granted and don't even recognize as privacy technology.

651
00:50:21,684 --> 00:50:24,624
But however, when we get to the digital realm,

652
00:50:24,624 --> 00:50:33,104
There's this sort of assumption that, oh, no, privacy doesn't matter here as much as it does when I'm sending somebody a letter.

653
00:50:33,204 --> 00:50:38,364
I don't want the mailman to open the letter and to read my mail.

654
00:50:38,424 --> 00:50:43,344
There's actually a federal offense if you're caught stealing somebody's envelopes and opening their mail.

655
00:50:43,344 --> 00:50:54,464
And it's just hilarious that we've been conditioned in the digital age to not bring that same mindset to what we're doing in the digital world.

656
00:50:54,624 --> 00:51:06,464
Yeah, I think that's the big part to highlight is it's more of a conditioning that we've like the early Internet days were not like this, but quickly it got taken over.

657
00:51:06,464 --> 00:51:14,824
And the realization that the data that's available in how people are using the Internet is immensely valuable.

658
00:51:15,224 --> 00:51:23,084
And so we got conditioned by all of these these corporations that were building and abusing our data, building companies around selling our data.

659
00:51:23,084 --> 00:51:27,444
they got conditioned to think that there just wasn't a way to achieve privacy and that this

660
00:51:27,444 --> 00:51:31,944
was just how the internet was. Like if you're, if you're doing something online, just assume it's

661
00:51:31,944 --> 00:51:35,644
not private and deal with it. And if you want to do something private, just don't do it online.

662
00:51:35,984 --> 00:51:40,804
And that conditioning, I think is the root of the problem because the building blocks of the

663
00:51:40,804 --> 00:51:47,624
internet, there's like cryptography and cypherpunks have been core to a lot of the technology that

664
00:51:47,624 --> 00:51:52,424
powers the internet. And yet a lot of it's been abused and misused to make us feel like there is

665
00:51:52,424 --> 00:51:57,864
no privacy. But these days, that really is just a feeling. It's just not true in how we can use the

666
00:51:57,864 --> 00:52:01,824
internet. And that's been one of the really exciting things, I think, over the past few years,

667
00:52:01,944 --> 00:52:04,804
is the technology is actually good enough now.

668
00:52:04,992 --> 00:52:09,212
that when people are able to break free of that conditioning and they're able to understand,

669
00:52:10,212 --> 00:52:16,692
like, wait, Signal just feels like iMessage. There's no difference here. And yet I am getting

670
00:52:16,692 --> 00:52:23,892
perfect message level privacy and metadata privacy. And I'm not having to tie my ID to this in any way.

671
00:52:23,892 --> 00:52:29,812
It's not tied to a phone number in a way that's revealable to other people. That shift happens.

672
00:52:30,352 --> 00:52:34,592
But once it happens, people understand that I can actually just have privacy and not sacrifice too

673
00:52:34,592 --> 00:52:39,152
much for it. So a lot of it is just like when people break out of that conditioning and that

674
00:52:39,152 --> 00:52:44,212
misunderstanding that everything I do online can't be private, it starts to change the game a lot.

675
00:52:44,272 --> 00:52:47,832
And we've seen a huge shift in that. So it's been exciting over the past few years that the

676
00:52:47,832 --> 00:52:53,072
like the freedom tech has gotten good enough now that as people are waking up, there's actually

677
00:52:53,072 --> 00:52:59,852
good usable real tools that they can jump into and use today to gain privacy. And it's not nearly as

678
00:52:59,852 --> 00:53:04,472
much of a nightmare from a user experience perspective or a pain perspective as it was

679
00:53:04,472 --> 00:53:09,572
10 years ago, eight years ago, even five years ago, I feel like when I was first waking up to

680
00:53:09,572 --> 00:53:14,192
the need for privacy and falling down the rabbit hole really hard, it was a lot more painful than

681
00:53:14,192 --> 00:53:18,212
it is today. When I recommend what people can use, it's just, it's a night and day difference.

682
00:53:19,352 --> 00:53:22,452
Yeah. And like bringing it back to the envelope example, it's like such a,

683
00:53:23,112 --> 00:53:27,572
you literally just have a layer of like epoxy that you lick and you put down and

684
00:53:27,572 --> 00:53:33,772
the assurances of that privacy, that privacy assurance is like literally like a layer of

685
00:53:33,772 --> 00:53:43,812
of the glue and yet people respect it and it's like how do we make that similar but i would argue

686
00:53:43,812 --> 00:53:51,572
more hardened and uh verifiable and robust assurance on the internet via cryptography

687
00:53:51,572 --> 00:53:57,492
like how do you make that like socially not acceptable but like socially like oh no like

688
00:53:57,492 --> 00:54:00,692
this this is a foregone conclusion this should be the way we do things

689
00:54:00,692 --> 00:54:06,612
yeah i mean it's it really is happening but like you said like the really fascinating thing about

690
00:54:06,612 --> 00:54:11,732
it is like the idea is we can't have privacy on the internet the reality is we can have

691
00:54:11,732 --> 00:54:16,532
actually better privacy on the internet than we can a lot of times in meat space these days

692
00:54:16,532 --> 00:54:23,032
like the the cryptographic tools that we have are so much more sure and reliable and dependable than

693
00:54:23,032 --> 00:54:28,152
an envelope that you just like and stamp and send to your grandma like that thing theoretically

694
00:54:28,152 --> 00:54:34,072
provides privacy, but it's also all being tracked and surveilled and read in between. And we should

695
00:54:34,072 --> 00:54:40,152
assume that USPS, et cetera, know what's being sent in every package. Whereas when I send you a

696
00:54:40,152 --> 00:54:47,192
message on radar, both of us know cryptographically in a provable way that no other person has read

697
00:54:47,192 --> 00:54:51,632
this in the middle. And if they have, we will both see that someone else has opened this somehow.

698
00:54:51,972 --> 00:54:56,992
And we'll understand that something is very broken here. With a letter, it's really easy.

699
00:54:56,992 --> 00:54:58,772
and this has been happening for hundreds of years,

700
00:54:59,392 --> 00:55:00,912
you can open it and then reseal it

701
00:55:00,912 --> 00:55:01,992
and send it on its way.

702
00:55:02,072 --> 00:55:03,412
And you have no way to ensure that.

703
00:55:03,532 --> 00:55:04,592
Obviously, there's some tricks you can do

704
00:55:04,592 --> 00:55:06,832
to try to make it clear

705
00:55:06,832 --> 00:55:08,412
that someone is tampered with a package.

706
00:55:08,692 --> 00:55:10,112
Sometimes we do that with hardware wallets

707
00:55:10,112 --> 00:55:10,952
in the Bitcoin space.

708
00:55:11,192 --> 00:55:13,592
They have tamper evident tape or packaging.

709
00:55:13,892 --> 00:55:14,972
But for the most part,

710
00:55:15,012 --> 00:55:17,192
you have no idea if someone has read the message in between.

711
00:55:17,672 --> 00:55:19,532
Whereas with cryptography,

712
00:55:19,632 --> 00:55:21,332
we can actually have provable privacy

713
00:55:21,332 --> 00:55:23,372
between people over the internet

714
00:55:23,372 --> 00:55:25,572
and really have the best of both worlds.

715
00:55:25,572 --> 00:55:31,772
Yeah, it's like this is the extent of meatspace, like high-tech, privacy-preserving packaging.

716
00:55:32,072 --> 00:55:32,732
It's like right here.

717
00:55:33,012 --> 00:55:50,192
It's like the – what are your thoughts on – because let's bring up Tucker Carlson and Signal and the whole like U.S. government hacked my Signal brush and read my –

718
00:55:50,192 --> 00:55:56,452
Yeah, read my messages with with the Russian delegates that I was talking to.

719
00:55:57,192 --> 00:56:12,792
And I think it's important to to to dispel the rumors around there, because I think Tucker's done a very poor job of sort of besmirching signal when really at the end of the day was likely something like Pegasus or somebody got access to it before.

720
00:56:12,792 --> 00:56:18,692
yeah i mean obviously there's been a lot of people other people who have talked about that as well but

721
00:56:18,692 --> 00:56:24,672
the underlying fact is ponying your device is going to be drastically easier than ponying signal

722
00:56:24,672 --> 00:56:31,392
at this point and that's the thing i mean if you are a very high level journalist activist dissident

723
00:56:31,392 --> 00:56:37,112
you should assume that your device is compromised essentially that's the the sad state of things

724
00:56:37,112 --> 00:56:42,672
right now obviously apple has done a lot to try and prevent what damage that can do and like there's

725
00:56:42,672 --> 00:56:47,792
there's lockdown mode on iOS, which if you are someone like Tucker Carlson, you better be using

726
00:56:47,792 --> 00:56:53,312
all of the most hardcore functionality available to you to protect your device. Because the thing

727
00:56:53,312 --> 00:56:59,172
that a lot of people forget is like, whatever the state of the security on the device you're using,

728
00:56:59,852 --> 00:57:03,752
that's the lowest default state of security of whatever apps you're using on top of that.

729
00:57:04,372 --> 00:57:08,192
And I think a lot of that is forgotten, even like in the Bitcoin space, when you're using,

730
00:57:08,192 --> 00:57:13,832
like let's say you're using a fantastic wallet like sparrow on your desktop but you're using a

731
00:57:13,832 --> 00:57:20,072
windows desktop and you aren't careful about what you download and you're sharing the device with a

732
00:57:20,072 --> 00:57:26,352
few other people if sparrow and the password you use for that are good that's awesome but if the

733
00:57:26,352 --> 00:57:31,352
underlying os gets hacked you have serious problems at that point because they have they have access

734
00:57:31,352 --> 00:57:35,672
to all of the underlying infrastructure they can change things about what you see on screen

735
00:57:35,672 --> 00:57:41,012
it breaks everything else so i mean the the the assumption and everything that i have been able to

736
00:57:41,012 --> 00:57:45,712
find out about the tucker carlson incident is it seems very likely that his device was pwned maybe

737
00:57:45,712 --> 00:57:51,572
not even pegasus or something that was a true zero day but most likely that pretty much just like

738
00:57:51,572 --> 00:57:57,112
with a lot of other privacy preserving tech the other thing that happens is people forget that

739
00:57:57,112 --> 00:58:02,972
anyone in a chat can leak what's in that chat like if you add someone who's not a trusted individual

740
00:58:02,972 --> 00:58:04,452
and they're in a group chat,

741
00:58:04,672 --> 00:58:06,612
your privacy obviously doesn't protect you from them

742
00:58:06,612 --> 00:58:08,152
because they're the ones also receiving

743
00:58:08,152 --> 00:58:09,692
all of those messages in plain text.

744
00:58:10,112 --> 00:58:12,052
Anyone can screenshot messages and take them out.

745
00:58:12,572 --> 00:58:13,872
Even if there's protection in the app,

746
00:58:13,932 --> 00:58:15,852
there are ways to do screenshots outside of that.

747
00:58:15,852 --> 00:58:18,612
That side of things I think is often forgotten

748
00:58:18,612 --> 00:58:21,132
that this is just one piece of a broader

749
00:58:21,132 --> 00:58:24,252
OPSEC, operational security stack that you need.

750
00:58:24,692 --> 00:58:26,812
And you need to be thinking about the device security as well.

751
00:58:27,932 --> 00:58:29,592
But yeah, as far as we can tell,

752
00:58:29,712 --> 00:58:32,132
the Signal protocol itself has remained

753
00:58:32,132 --> 00:58:36,572
fantastically secure despite being such a high-profile tool that's being used by

754
00:58:36,572 --> 00:58:40,292
governments and journalists and dissidents at this point but it does

755
00:58:40,292 --> 00:58:44,492
still come down to how secure can you keep your device at the same time yeah

756
00:58:44,492 --> 00:58:49,052
how secure can you keep your your group chat that the Department of War found

757
00:58:49,052 --> 00:58:54,152
that out the hard way a couple years ago I'm letting a yeah I forget the

758
00:58:54,152 --> 00:58:57,392
journalists they let into the group chat by accident I forget what it was yeah

759
00:58:57,392 --> 00:59:00,632
they added the wrong journalists they thought it was someone else they had

760
00:59:00,632 --> 00:59:05,212
the same first name, but yeah, they added the wrong journalist into the chat. Just let him sit

761
00:59:05,212 --> 00:59:11,212
there the whole time. Yeah. You can't fix stupid, unfortunately. That's always the lowest common

762
00:59:11,212 --> 00:59:20,032
denominator. What are your thoughts on the cozying up of the frontier model providers in the

763
00:59:20,032 --> 00:59:28,292
government, the cucking of Fable 5, the offering of a 5% stake in open AI from Sam Altman to the

764
00:59:28,292 --> 00:59:35,572
Trump administration, how are you viewing this trend that seems to be growing? And it seems like

765
00:59:36,452 --> 00:59:44,492
the AI models are becoming an issue of national security in the eyes of the federal government

766
00:59:44,492 --> 00:59:51,372
here. And I think it's incredibly worrying that this is the case. I think the fear-mongering

767
00:59:51,372 --> 00:59:58,772
around fable five was in just anthropics uh positioning and marketing tactics yeah specifically

768
00:59:58,772 --> 01:00:06,452
are um detrimental to to human freedom because the ai is a probably the strongest double-edged

769
01:00:06,452 --> 01:00:12,152
sword we've ever come into contact with as as a technology and it can go in two very different

770
01:00:12,152 --> 01:00:20,172
directions yeah i mean i think it's it's been the strongest reminder of why open weight models not

771
01:00:20,172 --> 01:00:23,172
only matter, but will be essential.

772
01:00:23,532 --> 01:00:26,952
Cause it's, we're kind of getting into a lot of the similar stuff where like when

773
01:00:26,952 --> 01:00:31,332
encryption technology became possible, the U S absolutely flipped their lid about

774
01:00:31,332 --> 01:00:35,012
GPG being something that you could export to other countries and that other people

775
01:00:35,012 --> 01:00:45,758
would have the ability to to use encryption technology and what a nightmare that would be for them Governments are always going to kind of like clutch at pearls and hold on to what they can

776
01:00:45,758 --> 01:00:50,278
to protect themselves. And in this case, like there is an understandable national security risk

777
01:00:50,278 --> 01:00:57,758
where the government has always been the worst ones at maintaining security when it comes to

778
01:00:57,758 --> 01:01:02,558
cybersecurity. Like they've never been very good at that. Systems are always out of date and stale,

779
01:01:02,558 --> 01:01:11,458
have done work in cybersecurity for governments. It's interesting when you see behind the veil

780
01:01:11,458 --> 01:01:17,498
about how out of date and how behind the times they are and how slow they are to move. And when

781
01:01:17,498 --> 01:01:22,058
you talk about these AI models, especially frontier models, not only from the like,

782
01:01:22,258 --> 01:01:25,338
we're normally thinking about the vibe coding perspective, but when you get into the cybersecurity

783
01:01:25,338 --> 01:01:32,818
world, the ability this gives to outside entities to either for good or for evil, do penetration

784
01:01:32,818 --> 01:01:40,658
testing, to find vulnerabilities, to build novel zero-day tools, it's a whole shift in the paradigm

785
01:01:40,658 --> 01:01:47,158
of cybersecurity from the ground up. So I understand their reticence, but it's another

786
01:01:47,158 --> 01:01:54,038
reminder that if we're building closed model, closed source models behind for-profit companies,

787
01:01:54,038 --> 01:01:59,218
we're going to be beholden to whatever jurisdiction they live in and we're going to be drastically

788
01:01:59,218 --> 01:02:05,418
restricted from how useful they can be and how much freedom they can actually provide but the

789
01:02:05,418 --> 01:02:10,998
the other really good thing is that the it's kind of similar to the streisand effect where like when

790
01:02:10,998 --> 01:02:16,778
they when they try to clamp down on something it only makes people want it even more and that's

791
01:02:16,778 --> 01:02:21,938
happening even with i think it's pushing the development of the open weight models further

792
01:02:21,938 --> 01:02:27,578
forward because as they stall out Anthropic with Fable 5 or as they put in these artificial delays

793
01:02:27,578 --> 01:02:31,438
or they try to stop them from using it, they can't do the same thing to the people building

794
01:02:31,438 --> 01:02:35,838
open weight models. They don't have the same control over that. And so we're seeing things

795
01:02:35,838 --> 01:02:41,518
like GLM 5.2 that are catching up with what's possible. Maybe not. Those aren't like Fable 5

796
01:02:41,518 --> 01:02:47,378
level, but they're opus level. They're getting there to where they're able to provide the vast

797
01:02:47,378 --> 01:02:52,458
majority of what people need. And others are waking up to the idea that like, hey, we can't

798
01:02:52,458 --> 01:02:58,078
build these things in closed, closed environments, if we want to be able to distribute them freely.

799
01:02:58,478 --> 01:03:03,078
They're kind of relearning the whole idea of open source software, which is fascinating to me,

800
01:03:03,138 --> 01:03:07,898
but we're kind of rehashing the same thing that we did 20, 30 years ago with with open source,

801
01:03:08,498 --> 01:03:13,858
Microsoft versus Linux. And like, there's so many stuff that's so many things, it's kind of a

802
01:03:13,858 --> 01:03:17,418
time is a flat circle, but it's been interesting to see that become more

803
01:03:17,418 --> 01:03:21,258
popular and more kind of invoked to talk about the stuff needing to be open source.

804
01:03:22,258 --> 01:03:24,578
Yeah, I mean, whether it's lip service

805
01:03:24,578 --> 01:03:29,678
or riding a trend, I don't think it matters to your point about the Streisand effect. You have

806
01:03:29,678 --> 01:03:33,798
the all-in podcast guys talking about open-weight models and the importance of

807
01:03:33,798 --> 01:03:37,678
them, which is a good

808
01:03:37,678 --> 01:03:41,718
microphone to have, at least incepting the idea

809
01:03:41,718 --> 01:03:45,558
of an open-weight model in the minds of their listeners

810
01:03:45,558 --> 01:03:46,138
specifically.

811
01:03:47,898 --> 01:03:53,378
Getting back to the convenience of signal and the convenience of these tools, the ultimate goal should be

812
01:03:53,378 --> 01:03:57,538
to get on a convenience parity with the sort of

813
01:03:57,538 --> 01:04:01,738
cucked walled garden, not private at all

814
01:04:01,738 --> 01:04:05,658
technology that exists in the digital

815
01:04:05,658 --> 01:04:09,658
world today. Because most people, outside

816
01:04:09,658 --> 01:04:13,318
of the bubbles that we live in and the Freedom Tech corners,

817
01:04:13,858 --> 01:04:16,578
our Corners of X, the podcasts that we listen to,

818
01:04:16,578 --> 01:04:19,598
the vast majority of people probably don't understand

819
01:04:19,598 --> 01:04:21,498
how any of this works.

820
01:04:22,298 --> 01:04:25,618
Just going back to you just need convenience parity

821
01:04:25,618 --> 01:04:27,738
with Freedom Tech.

822
01:04:27,938 --> 01:04:31,338
Because if I were to go to the beach later today

823
01:04:31,338 --> 01:04:35,918
and talk to people, if I mentioned the term open-weight model,

824
01:04:36,058 --> 01:04:37,498
they'd be like, what the hell are you talking about?

825
01:04:37,618 --> 01:04:38,198
What is that?

826
01:04:38,198 --> 01:04:44,398
yeah yeah people but it's just like just like no one knows what the triple ratchet protocol

827
01:04:44,398 --> 01:04:49,678
that signal uses is like i bet you've never thought deeply about the triple ratchet protocol

828
01:04:49,678 --> 01:04:55,678
and how important that is like no that the whole point is we abstract away what these things are

829
01:04:55,678 --> 01:05:00,798
and we put them in front of people in a usable manner like you mentioned maple if you're if

830
01:05:00,798 --> 01:05:08,138
you're talking about ai when you're using maple you don't need to understand anything about tees

831
01:05:08,138 --> 01:05:14,218
or secure enclaves or attestation or like the whole point is a really good company or a really

832
01:05:14,218 --> 01:05:18,198
good team or a really good individual can build something that abstracts away the complexity,

833
01:05:18,198 --> 01:05:21,398
but leverages technology for all the benefits you need under the hood.

834
01:05:21,718 --> 01:05:25,978
And it's really going to be the same way with AI. Like we're so obsessed, especially when we're,

835
01:05:26,018 --> 01:05:32,058
we're in the space heavily right now. Like we know all the model names and the effort levels

836
01:05:32,058 --> 01:05:35,958
that you need to choose for each and like all these things. This is not going to be the future.

837
01:05:35,958 --> 01:05:39,758
It's just like when we're first, we're kind of getting into Bitcoin.

838
01:05:39,978 --> 01:05:43,978
Like we know all these technical terms and all this jargon and slang, but the vast majority

839
01:05:43,978 --> 01:05:45,798
of people using Bitcoin, they don't understand it.

840
01:05:45,838 --> 01:05:46,738
They don't know what SegWit is.

841
01:05:47,178 --> 01:05:48,678
They don't really know what fee rates are.

842
01:05:48,758 --> 01:05:50,378
They don't know what sats per V byte is.

843
01:05:50,618 --> 01:05:55,818
Like that stuff is just not common because we've been able to build tools that abstract

844
01:05:55,818 --> 01:05:58,738
away the vast majority of that and make it very simple for them to use.

845
01:05:59,318 --> 01:06:02,858
The same thing's going to happen with the AI side of things as well, where you won't

846
01:06:02,858 --> 01:06:04,058
understand that it's an open rate model.

847
01:06:04,058 --> 01:06:08,538
you'll just see, oh, I can use one that's really cheap, or I can use one that's really expensive,

848
01:06:08,538 --> 01:06:14,538
or I can use this one no matter where I am. But to use this one, I have to provide my ID or

849
01:06:14,538 --> 01:06:17,218
something like that. Those are going to be the things that separate it out for people.

850
01:06:17,558 --> 01:06:22,138
And honestly, already, they're all kind of good enough to meet the needs of the average person.

851
01:06:22,458 --> 01:06:26,658
And we're only getting started in terms of open weight models specifically. So a lot of that will

852
01:06:26,658 --> 01:06:30,938
be abstracted away. But yeah, right now, we're kind of in the weeds of things that no one in

853
01:06:30,938 --> 01:06:35,178
the real world is going to understand what that is. Yeah. I mean, you mentioned stablecoin

854
01:06:35,178 --> 01:06:44,078
integration on the roadmap for radar. What else in your mind do you think would be a good feature?

855
01:06:44,078 --> 01:06:49,798
How far do you guys want to push it? Yeah. I mean, there's a long ways to go now in terms of

856
01:06:49,798 --> 01:06:55,038
features. Obviously, we wanted to start with just nailing payments, having that down very smooth,

857
01:06:55,178 --> 01:07:00,458
very effortless. So I think we did that. I think the two biggest things moving forward,

858
01:07:00,458 --> 01:07:02,178
And obviously, there's a lot of other things on our roadmap.

859
01:07:02,618 --> 01:07:05,578
Two big things are handling payments in group chats.

860
01:07:05,798 --> 01:07:10,518
So not even just like you can send to one other person in a group chat, but things like

861
01:07:10,518 --> 01:07:11,198
splitting a bill.

862
01:07:11,458 --> 01:07:15,718
When you have a friend group that you meet for lunch every Thursday, like when you end,

863
01:07:15,778 --> 01:07:18,818
you should be able to just say, hey, the bill was $83, $72.

864
01:07:19,378 --> 01:07:22,818
And then each user gets a prompt just to pay their split of it.

865
01:07:23,258 --> 01:07:23,898
Things like that.

866
01:07:24,018 --> 01:07:26,998
Things like fundraising as well, I think will be really helpful.

867
01:07:27,298 --> 01:07:29,458
Like the earthquakes in Venezuela.

868
01:07:29,458 --> 01:07:33,258
There's a lot of people who are using like a dozen different fundraising platforms.

869
01:07:33,598 --> 01:07:37,918
But all the conversations about that are all happening in another platform like Signal,

870
01:07:38,238 --> 01:07:38,978
like WhatsApp.

871
01:07:40,018 --> 01:07:44,638
Imagine being able to have a group where you're posting all of the updates about what help

872
01:07:44,638 --> 01:07:45,938
you're providing to people in Venezuela.

873
01:07:46,338 --> 01:07:50,678
And you get to just put up a fundraiser that everyone sees on screen whenever they're in

874
01:07:50,678 --> 01:07:51,118
that chat.

875
01:07:51,278 --> 01:07:52,858
They choose how much they want to donate to.

876
01:07:53,078 --> 01:07:55,738
And again, all of that is not going through a third party.

877
01:07:55,858 --> 01:07:59,318
That's going directly peer to peer between the person who wants to support you and keep

878
01:07:59,318 --> 01:08:04,958
up to date with what's happening and your wallet immediately. So those are the, I think two of the

879
01:08:04,958 --> 01:08:09,498
really big things are the group messaging side. There's a lot of, a lot of value we can bring on

880
01:08:09,498 --> 01:08:16,018
again, making it even more social to do payments. Um, the stable coins one is, is really interesting.

881
01:08:16,018 --> 01:08:25,698
Like it's been painful for me to start to understand how useful stable coins are for people.

882
01:08:25,698 --> 01:08:31,718
like I I hate them like I hate everything that a stable coin stands for and that it reinforces the

883
01:08:31,718 --> 01:08:38,438
the legacy fiat system they're usually censored and able to be shut down at a tap they're almost

884
01:08:38,438 --> 01:08:44,238
always easily surveilled like they're in every way they're the opposite of freedom money and yet

885
01:08:44,238 --> 01:08:48,478
when you actually talk to people who are on the ground in most of the countries who need freedom

886
01:08:48,478 --> 01:08:55,418
money, they're not using Bitcoin yet. And that is unfortunate. I think a lot of what I'd like to

887
01:08:55,418 --> 01:08:59,618
change with radar is to start getting them to use Bitcoin. But there's a lot of the world where they

888
01:08:59,618 --> 01:09:06,838
just need the stability of stable coins. And we can now do that on Bitcoin at least. So the goal

889
01:09:06,838 --> 01:09:21,484
is that people will be able to choose if they want to keep their balance in stable coins or in Bitcoin It be easy at a tap And then again because we building both of these things on Bitcoin rails you can swap between them in a split second very very seamlessly

890
01:09:21,924 --> 01:09:26,164
very low, almost zero fees at the same time. So it's one of those things like it's painful

891
01:09:26,164 --> 01:09:29,304
to enable. It's just like a cake wallet. Like people are like, why do you have all of these

892
01:09:29,304 --> 01:09:33,804
EVM chains and cake wallet? It's not because we love all of the things that happen on those chains,

893
01:09:33,804 --> 01:09:38,444
but it's because like when I go to the Oslo Freedom Forum or I chat with anybody from the HRF,

894
01:09:38,444 --> 01:09:43,564
like it or not, most of these journalists and activists and dissidents and freedom fighters

895
01:09:43,564 --> 01:09:50,144
and opposition leaders, they're not using Bitcoin right now. I want them to. So I want to pair

896
01:09:50,144 --> 01:09:54,804
the stable coins they're already using with Bitcoin in one really seamless experience.

897
01:09:55,124 --> 01:10:00,884
But we need to support the stable coin side at first, and then slowly push them more and more

898
01:10:00,884 --> 01:10:04,404
into the Bitcoin side of things. But another really cool thing, one last thing I'll mention,

899
01:10:04,404 --> 01:10:07,964
because of the way that it works within Spark.

900
01:10:08,664 --> 01:10:10,224
If you keep your balance all in Bitcoin,

901
01:10:10,404 --> 01:10:12,084
but you want to send to somebody who wants stable coins,

902
01:10:12,224 --> 01:10:12,964
you can do that.

903
01:10:13,224 --> 01:10:15,144
And it gets converted on the fly in a split second.

904
01:10:15,584 --> 01:10:17,404
Or if you keep your balance in stable coins,

905
01:10:17,484 --> 01:10:20,024
but you are sending me Bitcoin in radar,

906
01:10:20,184 --> 01:10:20,684
it doesn't matter.

907
01:10:20,764 --> 01:10:22,104
I don't need to care about the conversion.

908
01:10:22,224 --> 01:10:24,264
I don't need to care about asking you for a specific thing.

909
01:10:24,744 --> 01:10:27,484
We can do that automatically behind the scenes on the fly

910
01:10:27,484 --> 01:10:29,064
so that you can choose what you want

911
01:10:29,064 --> 01:10:30,844
and always receive the currency that you want,

912
01:10:31,164 --> 01:10:33,464
always pay to the currency that the other person wants

913
01:10:33,464 --> 01:10:37,364
in a way that doesn't rely on a trusted third party or a centralized exchange.

914
01:10:37,544 --> 01:10:40,344
So that's another really cool side of the actual tech that's underlying this.

915
01:10:40,964 --> 01:10:41,084
Yeah.

916
01:10:42,364 --> 01:10:47,884
Stable channels have always been the holy grail of stablecoin-like features

917
01:10:47,884 --> 01:10:54,964
with a custodial trade-off that is much more freedom-oriented.

918
01:10:57,184 --> 01:10:57,664
Yeah.

919
01:10:58,664 --> 01:11:00,884
They're one of those things that I think is...

920
01:11:00,884 --> 01:11:05,164
they're very much like built by Bitcoiners thing,

921
01:11:05,244 --> 01:11:06,684
but they're like a fascinating idea,

922
01:11:06,684 --> 01:11:11,084
but they're like so over-engineered that I,

923
01:11:11,084 --> 01:11:15,764
I seriously doubt that there'll ever be uptake because the,

924
01:11:15,884 --> 01:11:22,944
there's just always this disconnect between what do the real users want and what

925
01:11:22,944 --> 01:11:27,884
do us as Bitcoin ideologues want to build and finding the middle ground there is,

926
01:11:27,884 --> 01:11:33,844
is really hard because a lot of times we have to be willing to move past our ideology in our view

927
01:11:33,844 --> 01:11:38,724
of like what the best for that person is and build something that's closer to what they want. Now,

928
01:11:38,884 --> 01:11:42,964
obviously, I'm not saying that we we give up on self custody because people just want simple

929
01:11:42,964 --> 01:11:47,224
user experiences like there are there are some hard lines that we draw, but that we have to get

930
01:11:47,224 --> 01:11:53,644
closer to where they're at. And like everyone's already using USTT, USTC, using a money VM chains

931
01:11:53,644 --> 01:11:59,184
that are very quick. Stable channels have a lot of other downsides and usability issues

932
01:11:59,184 --> 01:12:03,264
amongst broader issues about how that will actually work on the Lightning Network.

933
01:12:04,344 --> 01:12:09,184
They're really cool in theory, but in practice, like getting a user to actually adopt that when

934
01:12:09,184 --> 01:12:16,264
the user just wants stable balance. They don't really care if it's on that, but if it feels just

935
01:12:16,264 --> 01:12:21,184
as good and it happens to be on Bitcoin, awesome. If it feels totally different and painful to use,

936
01:12:21,184 --> 01:12:24,084
it's just not something that's going to gain uptake but we'll definitely see and it's the

937
01:12:24,084 --> 01:12:31,784
same with like um like rgb has been like a thing that's been talked about for what feels like a

938
01:12:31,784 --> 01:12:37,524
decade now long time long time and it's always like it's going to solve all these problems and

939
01:12:37,524 --> 01:12:43,364
they're going to do stable coins natively on there and taproot and but it it's always kind

940
01:12:43,364 --> 01:12:47,504
of like trying to i think shoehorn bitcoin into something where you don't necessarily need bitcoin

941
01:12:47,504 --> 01:12:52,224
or trying to do things in a way that's just too hardcore that's not going to actually meet people

942
01:12:52,224 --> 01:12:56,644
where they're at but it's always a it's always a balancing act because you don't want to give up

943
01:12:56,644 --> 01:12:59,824
on all the fundamentals and all the things that really matter just just to meet people where

944
01:12:59,824 --> 01:13:05,204
they're at and just for mass adoption and yet you want to try and meet them as closely as you can to

945
01:13:05,204 --> 01:13:11,004
where they're at it's a it's a it's a hard line to walk no to that point to the credit of many of

946
01:13:11,004 --> 01:13:16,724
the builders in the industry and i feel like they've been dragged away from the the hardcore

947
01:13:16,724 --> 01:13:19,804
more ideological sort of tool perspective

948
01:13:19,804 --> 01:13:21,564
towards the meet in the middle

949
01:13:21,564 --> 01:13:24,464
by actors like LightSpark, David Marcus,

950
01:13:24,664 --> 01:13:28,304
LightSpark and his team there and others.

951
01:13:28,544 --> 01:13:30,964
And I do think the last two years specifically,

952
01:13:32,064 --> 01:13:37,104
the sort of ability to look at the trade-off matrix

953
01:13:37,104 --> 01:13:39,424
and sort of draw the lines

954
01:13:39,424 --> 01:13:43,184
and begin to move toward the line

955
01:13:43,184 --> 01:13:44,324
where you're meeting people in the middle

956
01:13:44,324 --> 01:13:49,084
has been moving in a positive direction,

957
01:13:49,304 --> 01:13:49,864
which is good.

958
01:13:49,964 --> 01:13:50,684
I think it'll be good for you.

959
01:13:51,624 --> 01:13:54,444
Yeah, I think Spark is a really good example of that

960
01:13:54,444 --> 01:13:56,964
where at first glance, you're like,

961
01:13:57,184 --> 01:13:58,864
nah, it's not Bitcoin or enough.

962
01:13:59,164 --> 01:14:00,744
I don't think this is the right solution.

963
01:14:01,324 --> 01:14:02,264
When you actually dig into it,

964
01:14:02,284 --> 01:14:04,964
you realize it's a very pragmatic set of trade-offs

965
01:14:04,964 --> 01:14:07,524
where it's not, I don't think it goes too far

966
01:14:07,524 --> 01:14:09,864
into the custodial or into the trust models

967
01:14:09,864 --> 01:14:11,964
being too onerous.

968
01:14:12,224 --> 01:14:14,044
And yet it makes some design decisions

969
01:14:14,044 --> 01:14:20,984
that just make sense when you talk about how do we bring a reasonably trust minimized solution

970
01:14:20,984 --> 01:14:26,884
in a way that people can actually use. And that's been, I think, a huge wake up call to a lot of

971
01:14:26,884 --> 01:14:33,304
people and should be of there's room for doing things in the super hardcore way. But there's

972
01:14:33,304 --> 01:14:38,124
also room for figuring out like where can we compromise for lack of a better word? Like I

973
01:14:38,124 --> 01:14:43,264
know compromise is a scary word for people, but where can we compromise specific pieces of that

974
01:14:43,264 --> 01:14:45,584
without compromising the core of what Bitcoin offers.

975
01:14:46,344 --> 01:14:47,684
And Spark is a really good example of that.

976
01:14:47,784 --> 01:14:50,624
And I think LightSpark, as much hate as they get,

977
01:14:51,344 --> 01:14:53,444
they've found good ways to build out things

978
01:14:53,444 --> 01:14:55,964
that people really want on Bitcoin rails.

979
01:14:56,624 --> 01:14:59,504
Now, I think it does stay up to us

980
01:14:59,504 --> 01:15:01,504
as the more hardcore Bitcoiners, perhaps,

981
01:15:01,744 --> 01:15:02,904
to kind of keep them accountable

982
01:15:02,904 --> 01:15:06,304
and make sure that they do keep building

983
01:15:06,304 --> 01:15:08,444
in ways that are empowering the individual.

984
01:15:08,444 --> 01:15:10,684
And we don't lean too far towards custodial

985
01:15:10,684 --> 01:15:17,064
or too far towards just layering on the legacy banking system on top of Bitcoin.

986
01:15:17,824 --> 01:15:23,244
But it is interesting to see that there's got to be this balance between ideology,

987
01:15:23,524 --> 01:15:26,284
but also pragmatism and figuring out what will actually work,

988
01:15:26,364 --> 01:15:28,344
not just what is the most hardcore route we can take,

989
01:15:28,704 --> 01:15:33,624
what will actually work and how far can we take that towards the Bitcoin that we want to see.

990
01:15:34,504 --> 01:15:40,104
Yeah, we're beginning to see the emergence of the semantics of unilateral exit wars.

991
01:15:40,684 --> 01:15:47,844
emerge whether it's via spark or the competing competing or complementary depending how you look

992
01:15:47,844 --> 01:15:53,164
at the mark protocols as well and i i feel like bitcoiners are themselves a disservice when they

993
01:15:53,164 --> 01:15:59,724
get into the semantic wars it's it's like in your mind what are the trade-offs there yeah yeah i mean

994
01:15:59,724 --> 01:16:05,044
it's always funny to me because like in all of these things there's always there is a clear point

995
01:16:05,044 --> 01:16:10,704
that should be made. And I think the point that Spark right now, a wallet built on Spark cannot

996
01:16:10,704 --> 01:16:16,864
do unilateral exit in a clean way, even if you can do unilateral exit in Spark via other tooling,

997
01:16:17,384 --> 01:16:20,724
that point is good. It should be raised. People need to understand that trade-off.

998
01:16:22,724 --> 01:16:30,724
The problem becomes where it's always people with financial incentives who make these claims,

999
01:16:30,724 --> 01:16:34,384
and they never quite make them 100% accurately.

1000
01:16:35,324 --> 01:16:37,024
And so it gets into this thing

1001
01:16:37,024 --> 01:16:38,484
where it just becomes a war of attrition

1002
01:16:38,484 --> 01:16:40,604
where everyone's trying to grind down the other side

1003
01:16:40,604 --> 01:16:43,184
by sharing how bad their thing is

1004
01:16:43,184 --> 01:16:45,964
instead of just focusing on building their own product.

1005
01:16:46,604 --> 01:16:47,544
Like it's something that like,

1006
01:16:47,784 --> 01:16:50,044
like I used to be very, very active on X,

1007
01:16:50,204 --> 01:16:51,264
like very, very active.

1008
01:16:51,904 --> 01:16:53,204
I'm not nearly as active anymore

1009
01:16:53,204 --> 01:16:54,764
because I like, I have something to build.

1010
01:16:55,104 --> 01:16:57,044
Like I have only so much time.

1011
01:16:57,244 --> 01:16:59,724
And if I spend six hours a day yapping on Twitter,

1012
01:16:59,724 --> 01:17:02,944
Like I can't, I can't actually build something productive.

1013
01:17:03,104 --> 01:17:08,564
I think a lot of times we get, we get like dragged into this, this loop of fighting each

1014
01:17:08,564 --> 01:17:12,684
other and not having enough time left to actually build the tools that we need.

1015
01:17:12,764 --> 01:17:16,564
I think like BIP 110, the whole Nott's first core thing is another example of this, where

1016
01:17:16,564 --> 01:17:21,784
it's just like the amount of time that we've spent arguing about this over the last two

1017
01:17:21,784 --> 01:17:22,224
years.

1018
01:17:22,824 --> 01:17:26,184
Like, I don't even want to think about the amount of time and messages that have been

1019
01:17:26,184 --> 01:17:30,344
posted about this and that have changed literally nothing about the argument.

1020
01:17:30,924 --> 01:17:34,724
And I think it's very similar to this like ARK versus Spark thing where these should be,

1021
01:17:35,084 --> 01:17:38,304
yes, competitors, but in the sense of pushing each other to be better,

1022
01:17:38,724 --> 01:17:41,064
not in the sense of everyone's trying to drag others through the mud.

1023
01:17:41,464 --> 01:17:44,024
And I think it's kind of like, I think Spark have gone about this right way.

1024
01:17:44,124 --> 01:17:45,444
It's like, they're not wading into it at all.

1025
01:17:46,184 --> 01:17:57,850
They not getting into the debate with other people They just continuing to build And I think that is the right approach But again that being said like it never black or white We do need to be holding people accountable

1026
01:17:58,030 --> 01:18:03,350
And if some system is saying that they can do something and they can't actually do it,

1027
01:18:03,630 --> 01:18:04,630
we do need to call that out.

1028
01:18:04,750 --> 01:18:07,530
So like it's always a balancing act.

1029
01:18:07,530 --> 01:18:11,350
But then like this unilateral exit thing, like technically some of it is true.

1030
01:18:11,450 --> 01:18:13,870
Like you can't unilaterally exit in radar right now.

1031
01:18:13,970 --> 01:18:14,870
We're using Spark.

1032
01:18:14,870 --> 01:18:19,950
So if the Spark entity and all the Spark operators disappeared tomorrow, yes, your funds would be locked.

1033
01:18:20,250 --> 01:18:21,250
Obviously, that's not okay.

1034
01:18:21,850 --> 01:18:22,810
That's going to be fixed.

1035
01:18:22,910 --> 01:18:25,810
It's already in progress right now by the Breeze folks to fix it.

1036
01:18:26,370 --> 01:18:33,930
But if you wanted to unilaterally exit, you can use this separate tool, which you can just import your seed phrase into and exit.

1037
01:18:34,410 --> 01:18:37,210
So there are ways to do it, but it's not as seamless as it should be.

1038
01:18:37,330 --> 01:18:38,690
And obviously, that does need to be fixed.

1039
01:18:39,810 --> 01:18:43,510
Yeah, but to me, it seems like it's pointing in the right direction.

1040
01:18:43,510 --> 01:18:50,230
Again, getting into the semantic shit-throwing is not productive, to your point.

1041
01:18:50,310 --> 01:18:53,190
To your point, I don't wade into those arguments anymore.

1042
01:18:53,330 --> 01:18:57,690
BIP-110, I spent two days at Bitcoin++, I think last year or two years ago,

1043
01:18:57,790 --> 01:19:00,550
maybe even at this point, talking about the opportune battles

1044
01:19:00,550 --> 01:19:03,470
between interviewing people on both sides.

1045
01:19:03,690 --> 01:19:06,430
And I think then I realized it doesn't seem like they're going to come together.

1046
01:19:06,430 --> 01:19:09,470
You're talking about a lot of conversation here.

1047
01:19:09,610 --> 01:19:13,330
And so even though many people try to goad me into that conversation,

1048
01:19:13,330 --> 01:19:15,610
it's not worth the effort. I'm never going to convince you.

1049
01:19:15,850 --> 01:19:16,810
You're never going to convince me.

1050
01:19:17,450 --> 01:19:20,190
Let's just see you on the field.

1051
01:19:20,610 --> 01:19:22,870
I think more people need to see you on the field mentality.

1052
01:19:22,970 --> 01:19:23,830
Just go build your thing.

1053
01:19:24,390 --> 01:19:29,170
To the competition between Spark and Oracle,

1054
01:19:29,610 --> 01:19:31,590
yes, there is a degree of competition,

1055
01:19:31,810 --> 01:19:34,790
but they're all interoperable protocols via the Lightning Network.

1056
01:19:35,090 --> 01:19:38,410
They're all going to find their spot in the use case

1057
01:19:38,410 --> 01:19:41,950
that people are attracted to and the trade-offs make sense for.

1058
01:19:41,950 --> 01:19:45,930
And I think there's a big tent where all these things can work together.

1059
01:19:46,470 --> 01:19:46,910
Yeah.

1060
01:19:47,010 --> 01:19:47,210
Yeah.

1061
01:19:47,210 --> 01:19:51,130
And they're all open protocols, which again, like we talked about with, with open source,

1062
01:19:51,190 --> 01:19:55,590
one of the beautiful parts of this is they have to really aggressively compete for the

1063
01:19:55,590 --> 01:20:01,330
user because the, like, even with arc specifically, like anyone could spin up on another arcade,

1064
01:20:01,470 --> 01:20:05,790
anyone could spin up another bark if they wanted to, anyone could spin up another spark

1065
01:20:05,790 --> 01:20:08,050
entity as well.

1066
01:20:08,470 --> 01:20:11,370
So they, they have to be really aggressive with how they compete.

1067
01:20:11,370 --> 01:20:13,650
and because the switching cost is essentially nothing.

1068
01:20:13,970 --> 01:20:17,930
Like if I use a Spark-backed wallet right now

1069
01:20:17,930 --> 01:20:19,790
and I decide, oh, I really want to use RK,

1070
01:20:20,790 --> 01:20:23,210
I just send the stats over Lightning and I'm done.

1071
01:20:23,790 --> 01:20:25,510
There's no friction.

1072
01:20:25,790 --> 01:20:26,750
There's no new account.

1073
01:20:26,950 --> 01:20:27,890
There's nothing like that.

1074
01:20:28,390 --> 01:20:29,910
And that's one of the really beautiful things about these

1075
01:20:29,910 --> 01:20:31,870
is there will be really fierce competition

1076
01:20:31,870 --> 01:20:33,650
because they have to compete for users

1077
01:20:33,650 --> 01:20:35,270
in a way that there aren't walled gardens.

1078
01:20:35,530 --> 01:20:37,910
There's no IP laws protecting them.

1079
01:20:37,910 --> 01:20:41,130
It's all open protocols, open source, and open money.

1080
01:20:41,370 --> 01:20:45,790
And Lightning making them interoperable really means that we don't need one to win.

1081
01:20:46,550 --> 01:20:47,890
They all work well together.

1082
01:20:48,210 --> 01:20:51,870
And that's another thing that's really awesome is like, I don't, I and users don't need to

1083
01:20:51,870 --> 01:20:52,090
care.

1084
01:20:52,190 --> 01:20:53,330
Like, am I using a Spark wallet?

1085
01:20:53,430 --> 01:20:54,190
Is it an ARK wallet?

1086
01:20:54,690 --> 01:20:56,010
Is it a full Lightning wallet?

1087
01:20:56,570 --> 01:20:58,970
When they actually need to make a payment, they just make a payment and it just works.

1088
01:20:59,250 --> 01:21:01,050
And then everything else gets settled under the hood.

1089
01:21:01,370 --> 01:21:04,410
And that's a huge benefit of these things as well as you just, you pick the wallet that

1090
01:21:04,410 --> 01:21:07,170
you want and you get a really good user experience.

1091
01:21:07,170 --> 01:21:14,010
So that's what's so exciting about Spark and both our implementations is we can actually do lightning in a way that's really user friendly now.

1092
01:21:14,550 --> 01:21:14,950
Yeah.

1093
01:21:16,130 --> 01:21:24,210
And like who's to say, like I'm becoming more convinced that the whole form factor of how we interact with computers is changing.

1094
01:21:24,590 --> 01:21:29,930
Like I don't think UIs and like we mentioned earlier, like you can be a projectionist now.

1095
01:21:29,930 --> 01:21:31,450
If you want a UI, you can have one.

1096
01:21:31,670 --> 01:21:36,930
But I think the her version of reality that Spike Jonze put out there

1097
01:21:36,930 --> 01:21:40,470
over a decade ago, or maybe two decades now at this point,

1098
01:21:40,790 --> 01:21:41,790
is coming true.

1099
01:21:42,190 --> 01:21:45,670
I think rethinking how these things actually work

1100
01:21:45,670 --> 01:21:48,630
or how people interact with them in the first place

1101
01:21:48,630 --> 01:21:52,110
is something people need to put a lot of thought into.

1102
01:21:52,550 --> 01:21:57,210
I can see Bitcoin payments being sent in a way where it's like,

1103
01:21:57,210 --> 01:21:59,970
hey, Seth just bought me dinner.

1104
01:22:00,070 --> 01:22:01,550
Can you send him $20 worth of sats?

1105
01:22:01,590 --> 01:22:02,490
And I just tell my agent,

1106
01:22:02,610 --> 01:22:03,190
which just does it,

1107
01:22:03,250 --> 01:22:03,990
and I have no idea

1108
01:22:03,990 --> 01:22:04,930
what's happening in the background.

1109
01:22:06,830 --> 01:22:08,130
Yeah, that's going to be an interesting one.

1110
01:22:08,250 --> 01:22:10,110
The other interesting thing with that too

1111
01:22:10,110 --> 01:22:13,790
is your agent could run a full Lightning node

1112
01:22:13,790 --> 01:22:15,870
and manage liquidity theoretically.

1113
01:22:16,350 --> 01:22:17,530
So there's some ways where

1114
01:22:17,530 --> 01:22:20,370
we could start to see a shift

1115
01:22:20,370 --> 01:22:24,130
back towards the more complex technology

1116
01:22:24,130 --> 01:22:24,990
under the hood

1117
01:22:24,990 --> 01:22:27,590
and the more sovereign tech,

1118
01:22:27,870 --> 01:22:30,330
because you're not having to worry about

1119
01:22:30,330 --> 01:22:34,230
the actual UI or UX yourself,

1120
01:22:34,230 --> 01:22:35,370
you're able to say like,

1121
01:22:36,030 --> 01:22:37,870
hey, go ahead and create a wallet.

1122
01:22:38,490 --> 01:22:40,030
Make sure you keep enough inbound liquidity

1123
01:22:40,030 --> 01:22:41,910
for me to receive 100 bucks a month

1124
01:22:41,910 --> 01:22:44,030
or 100 bucks a week or day, whatever.

1125
01:22:44,690 --> 01:22:47,710
And it can figure out how to actually do that under the hood.

1126
01:22:47,750 --> 01:22:49,570
And you don't have to actually worry about that.

1127
01:22:49,870 --> 01:22:50,870
And me as a wallet dev,

1128
01:22:50,910 --> 01:22:52,070
I don't have to worry about that either.

1129
01:22:52,510 --> 01:22:54,010
So there's some ways too that that can like,

1130
01:22:54,010 --> 01:22:59,530
AI can be a great tool for self-sovereignty and that it can help you to do technical things you

1131
01:22:59,530 --> 01:23:06,590
would never be able to do yourself. So even if these less trust-minimized tools like Spark and

1132
01:23:06,590 --> 01:23:09,770
ARK compared to something like running a full-fledged Bitcoin and Lightning node,

1133
01:23:10,270 --> 01:23:17,870
if those do go away or they start to censor people or whatever, the agentic future that

1134
01:23:17,870 --> 01:23:22,350
I guess we're walking into now could enable you to do all this stuff in a much simpler way,

1135
01:23:22,350 --> 01:23:26,050
even if you're not, you don't have the technical know-how to do all the self-hosting stuff,

1136
01:23:26,470 --> 01:23:27,150
they can do it for you.

1137
01:23:27,210 --> 01:23:28,570
It's something that's actually really good at today.

1138
01:23:29,210 --> 01:23:29,390
Yeah.

1139
01:23:30,370 --> 01:23:32,230
Well, that, I want to be respectful of your time.

1140
01:23:32,310 --> 01:23:33,990
I know it's a Friday in the summer.

1141
01:23:35,330 --> 01:23:39,630
Any final thoughts, notes, calls to action as it pertains to radar?

1142
01:23:41,110 --> 01:23:42,170
This has been fascinating.

1143
01:23:42,950 --> 01:23:43,450
Yeah, I know.

1144
01:23:43,790 --> 01:23:47,510
We need to do a proper three-hour debrief on privacy tech at some point.

1145
01:23:47,850 --> 01:23:48,850
We really do.

1146
01:23:48,970 --> 01:23:49,450
We really do.

1147
01:23:49,450 --> 01:23:51,110
There's always time for that.

1148
01:23:51,110 --> 01:23:56,850
I'm always down for the long form stuff about privacy and get into what the what the freedom tech space is looking like today.

1149
01:23:58,270 --> 01:24:07,550
When it comes to radar, I mean, the biggest things are like it's been exciting to be able to combine the two most personal things that people do or the people you talk to and the people you pay.

1150
01:24:08,110 --> 01:24:09,450
Just bring it into one place.

1151
01:24:09,670 --> 01:24:10,290
Make it seamless.

1152
01:24:10,490 --> 01:24:11,950
Make it a really good user experience.

1153
01:24:12,250 --> 01:24:13,810
Do it in a way that's self-custodial.

1154
01:24:13,910 --> 01:24:17,510
That's privacy preserving on the messaging side specifically.

1155
01:24:17,970 --> 01:24:20,070
And that has just been an absolute blast.

1156
01:24:20,070 --> 01:24:22,290
So if you want to give it a try, go to radar.chat.

1157
01:24:22,430 --> 01:24:23,450
You can learn everything about it.

1158
01:24:23,610 --> 01:24:24,210
Download it there.

1159
01:24:24,670 --> 01:24:27,030
If you want to migrate from Signal, do a backup first.

1160
01:24:27,390 --> 01:24:28,730
Save that recovery key that it gives you.

1161
01:24:29,150 --> 01:24:30,770
And then you can just log into Radar.

1162
01:24:31,190 --> 01:24:32,190
You'll import that backup.

1163
01:24:32,450 --> 01:24:34,190
It'll be super seamless at that point.

1164
01:24:34,890 --> 01:24:37,830
And view it as something that would replace your primary Signal app.

1165
01:24:37,890 --> 01:24:40,070
If you're not a Signal user already, then now's the time.

1166
01:24:40,070 --> 01:24:42,930
You'll become a Signal user when you become a Radar user.

1167
01:24:43,710 --> 01:24:44,370
Give it a try.

1168
01:24:44,790 --> 01:24:46,390
Give us a shout out if you're in issues.

1169
01:24:46,610 --> 01:24:48,730
If you have feedback for us, we're constantly iterating.

1170
01:24:48,730 --> 01:24:50,790
I've already pushed multiple updates this week.

1171
01:24:50,970 --> 01:24:54,030
So always leaning on customer feedback at the same time.

1172
01:24:54,210 --> 01:24:55,250
But yeah, radar.chat.

1173
01:24:55,490 --> 01:24:57,670
Follow us on social media at radar chat,

1174
01:24:58,130 --> 01:24:59,030
pretty much on every platform.

1175
01:24:59,750 --> 01:25:01,270
It's been a ton of fun to build this.

1176
01:25:02,190 --> 01:25:03,390
Vic's idea from the ground up,

1177
01:25:03,490 --> 01:25:06,090
it's been fun to be able to bring that into reality

1178
01:25:06,090 --> 01:25:07,570
over the past six months or so

1179
01:25:07,570 --> 01:25:09,550
and build out something that I think

1180
01:25:09,550 --> 01:25:12,050
could be really, really powerful freedom tech moving forward.

1181
01:25:12,910 --> 01:25:14,210
Go check it out, Freaks.

1182
01:25:14,410 --> 01:25:16,390
Seth, thank you so much.

1183
01:25:16,390 --> 01:25:18,250
And Vic, you're not here, but thank you as well.

1184
01:25:18,730 --> 01:25:21,050
and we'll do this again at some point.

1185
01:25:21,910 --> 01:25:23,150
For sure. Thanks for having us, Marty.

1186
01:25:23,810 --> 01:25:24,530
Peace and love, freaks.

1187
01:25:25,370 --> 01:25:27,530
Thank you for listening to this episode of TFTC.

1188
01:25:28,030 --> 01:25:29,270
If you've made it this far,

1189
01:25:29,430 --> 01:25:31,570
I imagine you got some value out of the episode.

1190
01:25:32,190 --> 01:25:34,150
If so, please share it far and wide

1191
01:25:34,150 --> 01:25:35,950
with your friends and family.

1192
01:25:36,030 --> 01:25:37,390
We're looking to get the word out there.

1193
01:25:38,230 --> 01:25:39,910
Also, wherever you're listening,

1194
01:25:40,050 --> 01:25:42,210
whether that's YouTube, Apple, Spotify,

1195
01:25:43,010 --> 01:25:45,510
make sure you like and subscribe to the show.

1196
01:25:45,510 --> 01:25:50,230
And if you can leave a rating on the podcasting platforms, that goes a long way.

1197
01:25:50,770 --> 01:26:01,090
Last but not least, if you want to get these episodes a day early and ad free, make sure you download the Fountain podcasting app and go to fountain.fm to find that.

1198
01:26:01,830 --> 01:26:05,570
Five dollars a month, get you every episode a day early, ad free.

1199
01:26:06,370 --> 01:26:08,670
Helps the show, gives you incredible value.

1200
01:26:09,290 --> 01:26:12,890
So please consider subscribing via Fountain as well.

1201
01:26:12,890 --> 01:26:15,810
thank you for your time and until next time