1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:09,960 You've had a dynamic where money has become freer than free. 2 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:15,720 If you talk about a Fed just gone nuts, all the central banks going nuts. 3 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:17,920 So it's all acting like safe haven. 4 00:00:18,460 --> 00:00:23,520 I believe that in a world where central bankers are tripping over themselves to devalue their 5 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:28,500 currency, Bitcoin wins. In the world of fiat currencies, Bitcoin is the victor. 6 00:00:28,500 --> 00:00:31,400 I mean, that's part of the bull case for Bitcoin. 7 00:00:31,820 --> 00:00:34,280 If you're not paying attention, you probably should be. 8 00:00:37,420 --> 00:00:39,500 Emergency rep late on a Friday. 9 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:43,120 My guest here has a wedding in a little bit. 10 00:00:43,820 --> 00:00:48,580 I am braving the storm on the back porch of my father-in-law's beach house right now. 11 00:00:48,780 --> 00:00:51,440 But something to talk about. 12 00:00:51,440 --> 00:01:21,220 The FHA, Bill Pulte, Bill Pulte came out on Wednesday while Sam and I were both at the Bitcoin Policy Institute Summit and announced that they are essentially taking away the spending provision that Biden put in in 2022, which basically made it so if you want to get a mortgage as a Bitcoiner and have your Bitcoin count towards your net worth, you need to sell that Bitcoin, hold it in a bank account. 13 00:01:21,220 --> 00:01:26,860 all the cash in a bank account for three months, and then the value of that Bitcoin you sold could be recognized 14 00:01:26,860 --> 00:01:30,900 towards your net worth and towards your credit worthiness. 15 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:34,800 Bill Pulte came out on Wednesday and said, hey, we're changing this. 16 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:40,420 Bitcoin and crypto holders, your wealth that's held in these assets will be recognized. 17 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:48,540 However, they need to be held on a regulated third-party exchange and step in the right direction. 18 00:01:48,540 --> 00:01:51,780 massively beneficial that Bitcoiners don't have to sell their Bitcoin 19 00:01:51,780 --> 00:01:56,000 and their assets are being recognized towards their net worth 20 00:01:56,000 --> 00:02:00,180 in the eyes of banks and mortgage underwriters, but not perfect. 21 00:02:00,460 --> 00:02:01,440 Nothing is perfect. 22 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:08,500 And so I thought, let's bring on Sam Abbasi, co-founder, CEO of Hoseki, 23 00:02:08,500 --> 00:02:13,820 which is working to solve this problem to basically give institutions the ability 24 00:02:13,820 --> 00:02:20,640 or individuals the ability to prove that they own Bitcoin while retaining self-custody to 25 00:02:20,640 --> 00:02:26,240 institutions. That was a long-winded intro. So I'll throw it to you, Sam, if you have any color 26 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:31,680 to add there. Thanks for having me on again, Marty. Yeah, good, not great. But with government 27 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:36,860 stuff, I think it's probably the best you can ask for. It seems like we'll consider Bitcoin as an 28 00:02:36,860 --> 00:02:42,980 asset, but you got to give up your keys. So obviously not pretty antithetical to how we 29 00:02:42,980 --> 00:02:47,180 view the space developing and i think and it's antithetical to this audience and how they want 30 00:02:47,180 --> 00:02:51,840 to hold their assets in the first place but um it shouldn't be understated i mean that's that's a 31 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:57,880 that's a huge development yeah and we were texting back and forth about this last night like i imagine 32 00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:01,720 i read a newsletter about it yesterday and i'm just running with the assumption that 33 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:09,680 the sort of clause that says you have to hold it on a third party exchange probably stems from 34 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:16,120 a lack of understanding of the technical details of Bitcoin by people in FHA. 35 00:03:16,700 --> 00:03:28,400 And they're probably running through the problem in their head like, all right, if somebody goes and they try to claim that they have a certain amount of Bitcoin to count towards their net worth, how do we know that it's actually theirs? 36 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:30,980 Like, are they just showing me their brother's wallet, their mom's wallet? 37 00:03:31,180 --> 00:03:33,780 Did they have somebody send it to that wallet before? 38 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:37,860 Like, how do we know it's actually associated with that individual trying to take out this loan? 39 00:03:37,860 --> 00:03:54,820 And so I imagine, I don't have any inside information, but I'm just running with these assumptions that the tradeoff they made was like, all right, if they have it on an exchange associated with their name, that is a way in which we can confirm that it's actually theirs and they're not trying to dupe the mortgage underwriter. 40 00:03:54,820 --> 00:04:23,320 Yeah. And we're getting more information in real time to better assess sort of what the idea was and what the inspiration was for this. I mean, more granularly as to why assets have to be held at a custodian. It's just it seems like it's more in line with how traditional finance functions. These are qualified custodians. There's one publicly listed exchange in the US that you can use. So for them, it just felt a lot more comfortable, probably. But, you know, it likely has to do with the lack of understanding with some Bitcoin fundamentals. 41 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:28,500 which has sort of been our whole purpose. I mean, we started the company because I couldn't get a 42 00:04:28,500 --> 00:04:33,400 mortgage with my self-custody assets, realizing that they probably just want a statement, 43 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:36,740 something that looks familiar enough or looks legitimate enough to get you through the door. 44 00:04:37,980 --> 00:04:42,360 But I think explaining to regulators and legislators the nuances of actually holding 45 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:47,020 your keys and being able to prove that you are the owner is really important. I've always sort 46 00:04:47,020 --> 00:04:51,560 of related this to multi-sig and multi-sig companies. That's a Bitcoin primitive. That's 47 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:55,540 what Bitcoin does, the protocol level. But what you need is you need companies and you need 48 00:04:55,540 --> 00:05:00,500 services that are nice wrappers around that, that, you know, my mom could theoretically be able to 49 00:05:00,500 --> 00:05:07,180 use. And so we're doing the same thing with Bitcoin. I think the most commonly known way 50 00:05:07,180 --> 00:05:11,480 to do this and the most like generally accepted way is by signing and verifying a message. 51 00:05:12,140 --> 00:05:16,840 Most Bitcoin users probably haven't done that unless they were around in 2012, 13, 14. 52 00:05:16,840 --> 00:05:20,700 but that is a core part of what Bitcoin does. 53 00:05:21,280 --> 00:05:24,500 And we've just developed a nice experience around that. 54 00:05:26,020 --> 00:05:28,900 So yeah, I mean, again, it's a step in the right direction. 55 00:05:29,020 --> 00:05:31,000 It's not perfect, but still good. 56 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:33,040 Yeah. 57 00:05:33,580 --> 00:05:36,640 And so let's dive deeper into what you guys have built at Hoseki. 58 00:05:36,820 --> 00:05:39,840 For anybody listening to this, Sam was on the podcast a year, 59 00:05:39,940 --> 00:05:43,820 year and a half ago when we did a full debrief. 60 00:05:43,820 --> 00:05:50,880 But I think for anybody who may have listened to that or anybody who hasn't listened to that yet, just I mean, you briefly described it. 61 00:05:50,880 --> 00:06:10,760 But I think diving deeper into the details of what you're doing and really leaning into the idea and illuminating the fact that you can get sort of institutional grade assurances while still being able to retain the institutions can get the assurances from individuals holding Bitcoin in self-custody. 62 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:25,020 Yeah. So, I mean, our whole purpose for existence is to help financialize Bitcoin, build tooling, build a platform that makes that easier, makes that more accessible and ultimately empowers sovereign individuals, people that are holding their own keys. 63 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:31,500 So when we did the first podcast, it might have been maybe, yeah, maybe a year and a half or two years ago at this point. 64 00:06:32,820 --> 00:06:37,720 It was predominantly sort of an API connection, Plaid-like sort of experience. 65 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:43,160 And that's what we were selling to banks. And the objective for that was to just give you more data points on your customers. 66 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:49,720 Bitcoin, and they're interested in more than just Bitcoin, but like Bitcoin holdings, whether self-custody or in exchanges. 67 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:55,760 And a lot of that was education. A lot of that is sort of explaining to them that you can hold this asset in different ways. 68 00:06:56,280 --> 00:07:00,720 You can actually hold them yourself, which is just such a break from how traditional finance works. 69 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:04,920 You don't hold your own stock certificates. You don't have gold bars in your house. 70 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:08,220 But in this case, you can actually hold physical thing itself in your home. 71 00:07:08,300 --> 00:07:10,820 And so that's always been a challenge in terms of education. 72 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:22,640 Through a ton of feedback and a lot of iteration, what we realized is Bitcoin needs like sort of a platform or a set of tools in order to enable the property rights that are baked in. 73 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:28,220 So the coolest thing about Bitcoin is that it natively enables property rights without a monopoly on violence. 74 00:07:28,940 --> 00:07:34,500 It settles and it itself is a traditional system outside of any other system, be it digital or physical. 75 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:36,760 That's completely unique as it relates to money. 76 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:42,880 It probably is sort of underemphasized, but that's something we recognized early on. 77 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:46,160 Just like developing markets, you have assets. 78 00:07:46,740 --> 00:07:52,980 And let's say in the global south, you have real estate, but you don't have the frameworks to turn that asset into capital. 79 00:07:53,600 --> 00:08:02,300 And you realize that Bitcoin is in the exact same place that global south countries are in today, except we move at a much rapid and a much more accelerated pace. 80 00:08:02,300 --> 00:08:21,700 So sort of like the American frontier, being able to claim, like issue a claim, which is what they called it back then, on property that you are using, that you are inhabiting, that you really do practically own is really important in order to represent them and build credit and debt instruments on top of Bitcoin. 81 00:08:21,700 --> 00:08:43,460 So at a very fundamental level, what we do is we allow people to self-custody Bitcoin to prove that they own the UTXOs that they're trying to prove ownership over, whether that's through manually generating a signature or it's through plugging in your Trezor, your Ledger or whatever other cold storage device, signing a message. 82 00:08:43,460 --> 00:08:48,000 and in which case we never have access to private keys. That's a really important point that we 83 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:52,940 always try and emphasize with our retail users is we never touch your private keys. We can't touch 84 00:08:52,940 --> 00:08:56,360 your private keys. We don't want to touch your private keys. And we also don't have custody of 85 00:08:56,360 --> 00:09:02,600 the asset itself. So all you're doing is providing this data that you have control over to a 86 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:07,180 counterparty. In the first iteration, it was just a statement. So you have a mortgage broker, 87 00:09:07,660 --> 00:09:11,120 you have someone that you have a relationship with that you just need to formalize your Bitcoin 88 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:17,720 holdings with. But we've enhanced it significantly. We're now a counterparty, be it a bank, any other 89 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:23,840 financial institution, OTC trading desk can request certain information from you. So typically just 90 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:29,340 that you meet a minimum balance threshold. And you on the other end, in a nice like CRM, 91 00:09:29,460 --> 00:09:34,820 DocuSign like experience, can connect your Bitcoin, prove that you own it, that you have control, 92 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:39,580 and then share that information with what the counterparty is. You see all the information 93 00:09:39,580 --> 00:09:43,440 that they're requesting, you can approve or reject it, 94 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:45,220 and you can always revoke access as well. 95 00:09:46,700 --> 00:09:48,700 So that really is what the platform does 96 00:09:48,700 --> 00:09:49,500 at a fundamental level. 97 00:09:51,460 --> 00:09:53,580 Yeah, and it's incredibly important 98 00:09:53,580 --> 00:09:57,260 because this is the way it should be done. 99 00:09:57,420 --> 00:10:00,760 And I think we all wish that FHA was cognizant 100 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:05,580 of Hoseki and the ability to do this out of the gate 101 00:10:05,580 --> 00:10:08,680 when they made the announcement on Wednesday. 102 00:10:08,680 --> 00:10:20,720 But I think it's important really for anybody out there, whether you're at FHA or just a large institution, to really internalize this concept here and what you guys are building at Hoseki. 103 00:10:20,820 --> 00:10:31,080 Because it is massive in terms of creating the ability for individuals to store their own wealth, protect it, but then leverage it as capital. 104 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:37,260 As you mentioned, being able to lay claim to the capital that they do truly own. 105 00:10:37,260 --> 00:10:43,980 And there's been this disconnection between Bitcoin and the traditional financial system since it launched. 106 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:52,280 And it does feel like we are at this inflection point where it's certainly becoming more and more understood that Bitcoin is here to stay. 107 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:55,640 Not only is it here to stay, it is going to be integrated into our economy. 108 00:10:55,640 --> 00:11:04,000 And I think it is important for us as Bitcoiners who care about being able to leverage the properties of Bitcoin to really highlight this. 109 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:10,540 not only that, highlight the advantages that models like this provide, not only for individuals, 110 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:17,600 but institutions as well, like being able to easily verify that you own to get out a loan or 111 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:24,540 whatever it may be. Yeah. And, you know, the frustration was wanting to be able to use your 112 00:11:24,540 --> 00:11:29,740 Bitcoin or my Bitcoin without having to sell it first off, but also having to move it. So, 113 00:11:29,740 --> 00:11:33,920 you know, there's obvious like collateralized Bitcoin lending products, but I wanted an 114 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:38,360 experience or I wanted tooling and I wanted the opportunity for sovereign individuals to 115 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:44,220 simply be able to do something with that without even having to move it. There's a certain stack 116 00:11:44,220 --> 00:11:48,000 or a certain amount of your cold storage funds that you probably aren't that comfortable moving 117 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:53,920 or you would rather not if you had some tooling or some type of credit product that would enable 118 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:57,100 you to do something with it without actually having to move it. So I think this is the first 119 00:11:57,100 --> 00:12:01,680 step for sure. With mortgages specifically, what's so exciting about this is there's 120 00:12:01,680 --> 00:12:07,940 three different qualifications for like stock portfolios that are required in order to use them 121 00:12:07,940 --> 00:12:13,840 in a mortgage agreement. And the main thing is that it has to be considered verified. And so 122 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:18,080 there's three points as to what that actually means. One is ownership, proving that you own it. 123 00:12:18,780 --> 00:12:23,260 Two is that it's not pledged elsewhere, which is really important. And then three is liquidity. 124 00:12:24,380 --> 00:12:29,120 And what's so exciting is that the platform itself, sort of front running all of this, 125 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:33,660 supports all of that today and will still in perpetuity. 126 00:12:33,660 --> 00:12:44,817 Ownership is done by sign message There cross attestation protection So if someone claims ownership of a certain wallet or a certain amount of Bitcoin no other person can do so We have a timeout period 127 00:12:45,717 --> 00:12:51,857 There's things like, you know, refresh signatures. So basically proving that you do continue to have 128 00:12:51,857 --> 00:12:57,517 control throughout the duration of whatever the agreement might be. The not pledged elsewhere 129 00:12:57,517 --> 00:13:04,457 part is critical. So being able to have almost a clearinghouse of Bitcoin data, your own Bitcoin 130 00:13:04,457 --> 00:13:08,417 information that is being shared with a different counterparty, categorized for whatever the share 131 00:13:08,417 --> 00:13:15,297 might be for, allowing other institutions to see that this is pledged or might be pledged elsewhere 132 00:13:15,297 --> 00:13:20,237 just makes for a much more robust financial system. The liquidity bit is just being able 133 00:13:20,237 --> 00:13:23,897 to prove that you can actually sell it. So that's where a little bit of the nuance comes in. 134 00:13:23,897 --> 00:13:28,957 connecting a Coinbase account, for example, and your brokerage account, and also confirming that 135 00:13:28,957 --> 00:13:33,737 you own your private keys should basically be sufficient for you to show that you can send 136 00:13:33,737 --> 00:13:38,677 those funds to an exchange or elsewhere and be able to sell them immediately if the terms of the 137 00:13:38,677 --> 00:13:44,717 agreement call for that. So, you know, I mean, our existing system is built on COBOL. I think 138 00:13:44,717 --> 00:13:48,777 trying to like monkey patch and rearrange things, you know, legacy system is probably, 139 00:13:49,337 --> 00:13:53,597 it's probably too late. And what's cool about Bitcoin is all this stuff is natively part of the 140 00:13:53,597 --> 00:14:00,377 system and the controls that you can have are so, so much better. Um, you know, just understanding 141 00:14:00,377 --> 00:14:04,897 sort of, um, well, being able to enable people that have held Bitcoin for a long time and giving 142 00:14:04,897 --> 00:14:09,937 them some sort of benefit for that is really the crux of this. But, um, yeah, being able to monitor 143 00:14:09,937 --> 00:14:14,217 balances, being notified when something falls below a certain threshold or goes above a certain 144 00:14:14,217 --> 00:14:18,777 threshold and giving the user, the sovereign individual, all that control. Um, we're just 145 00:14:18,777 --> 00:14:22,937 really excited. This isn't something we thought would happen this fast, to be honest. So we were 146 00:14:22,937 --> 00:14:28,337 sort of building in anticipation of this in a few years. But I guess with this new admin, 147 00:14:28,457 --> 00:14:31,997 it's sort of, you know, mandated and ordered. And now they'll have to comply. 148 00:14:33,817 --> 00:14:37,477 Yeah, Trump was literally just behind the podium singing the praises of the industry. It's an 149 00:14:37,477 --> 00:14:40,457 incredible industry. It's going to we're going to dominate it. We're going to beat China. 150 00:14:41,197 --> 00:14:46,877 And so that's what that's why I'm very thankful for Bitcoin Policy Institute, because that's like 151 00:14:46,877 --> 00:14:51,697 the one thing I worry about as the administration becomes very favorable towards our industry. And 152 00:14:51,697 --> 00:14:54,977 You consider the large amounts of money surrounding him. 153 00:14:55,557 --> 00:15:02,717 Some, I think we definitely agree, are friendlies and others not so friendly, really forcing bad ideas on the administration. 154 00:15:02,937 --> 00:15:19,777 So the Bitcoin Policy Institute doing things like they did this week with the summit are massively important to getting in front of representatives, senators and people within the executive administration to make sure that we're giving them the correct and right and best information. 155 00:15:19,777 --> 00:15:32,737 But building what you were just describing, let's dig into pledging funds, making sure that funds are double pledged or rehypothecated on an individual level, if you will. 156 00:15:32,777 --> 00:15:33,657 How do you guys go about that? 157 00:15:34,897 --> 00:15:41,017 So we have the data with respect to what wallets or what addresses are being shared with any other counterparty. 158 00:15:41,397 --> 00:15:42,837 So those are categorized. 159 00:15:43,017 --> 00:15:45,457 And we'll have to iterate as well based on what the government needs. 160 00:15:45,457 --> 00:15:50,457 But those are categorized according to what the terms of the sort of we call it a share request. 161 00:15:50,457 --> 00:15:59,757 But basically what the terms of the of the of the pledge collateral are, if they're used for collateral that can be called upon later, if they're simply data points for them to assess their customer better. 162 00:16:00,437 --> 00:16:08,797 Those are all different parameters that we have that the institution can see on their end that the customer also voluntarily submits. 163 00:16:09,737 --> 00:16:12,637 So to sort of having this. 164 00:16:12,637 --> 00:16:14,137 Well, the network effects are critical. 165 00:16:14,137 --> 00:16:29,037 So having like this clearinghouse model where you know that certain assets that are being shared with you are already being shared in another location at a very minimum, at a foundational level, gives you some better data as to what the funds are being used for in the first place. 166 00:16:30,417 --> 00:16:38,717 So I think a lot of this is building from first principles, which frankly, I mean, just on your point with the BPI, that's I think what they're doing so well is merit really does pay off. 167 00:16:38,717 --> 00:16:47,437 And I think those guys are thinking about having thinking about the space from a first principles perspective that does show and carry on in this case to legislators and regulators. 168 00:16:47,437 --> 00:16:52,817 And they see that. And I think just sort of staying true to your conviction is really paid dividends. 169 00:16:53,557 --> 00:16:56,477 So, yeah, can't can't be more thankful to the BPI. 170 00:16:57,397 --> 00:17:05,717 Yeah. And let's paint the picture for all the politicians and members of the administration, potentially the president that are listening to this episode. 171 00:17:05,717 --> 00:17:12,657 what does giving an individual the ability to preserve self-custody and do all these things 172 00:17:12,657 --> 00:17:17,637 what does that open up from like a market perspective and consumer protections perspective 173 00:17:17,637 --> 00:17:24,197 well i mean we can speculate but i think if you understand bitcoin's ethos and bitcoin's sort of 174 00:17:24,197 --> 00:17:29,817 fundamental principles then um not building something like this and not sort of going in 175 00:17:29,817 --> 00:17:33,857 this direction is doing a disservice to the space and i just don't think it'll be something that 176 00:17:33,857 --> 00:17:38,857 would possibly play out. I mean, the sovereignty you have with holding your own assets just can't 177 00:17:38,857 --> 00:17:44,217 be understated. I remember, I think one of the things that orange pilled me before I even knew 178 00:17:44,217 --> 00:17:50,297 about Bitcoin was trying to get money out of an ATM, hitting my max, needing to take more money 179 00:17:50,297 --> 00:17:56,057 out, calling the bank and being told that the money in my account is mine, but the card that 180 00:17:56,057 --> 00:18:03,117 I'm using to withdraw those funds, I don't own. And I just realized at that moment, I don't own 181 00:18:03,117 --> 00:18:07,837 my money uh there's a million different constraints and hurdles between me and the money that i 182 00:18:07,837 --> 00:18:13,597 am supposed to own or supposed to have access to um self-custody completely turns it on its head 183 00:18:13,597 --> 00:18:19,957 and i think building very basic um frankly i think in retrospect things that will be very obvious 184 00:18:19,957 --> 00:18:25,197 tooling that enables you to do things with it which at the most basic simplest levels being 185 00:18:25,197 --> 00:18:31,557 able to say this is mine and i think the this might sound sort of like vitality but i think the 186 00:18:31,557 --> 00:18:35,577 I think the things that you can build on top of this will sort of surprise a lot of us. 187 00:18:35,717 --> 00:18:41,197 I think in a world that's becoming increasingly unstable, not that we want it to go in that direction, but it simply is. 188 00:18:41,457 --> 00:18:49,717 I think empowering the individual and giving them tooling to do that is going to unlock just a whole new sort of set of financial products. 189 00:18:51,817 --> 00:18:57,297 Yeah, it's and we discussed this when you're on the podcast last, but I think it's important. 190 00:18:57,297 --> 00:19:11,177 Like when you look out at the world and how the flourishing economies are actually able to emerge, it all comes back to private property rights, the ability to protect your private property. 191 00:19:11,177 --> 00:19:27,497 And I think to your point about the world getting more chaotic and more uncertain, that's something that's under attack is private property rights, whether that's via overt extreme taxation or just simply asset forfeiture. 192 00:19:27,497 --> 00:19:31,777 that was more of a risk under the Biden administration, 193 00:19:31,957 --> 00:19:36,597 but I think we'd be naive to think that it could not be a risk in the future. 194 00:19:36,717 --> 00:19:39,857 And Bitcoin as a peer-to-peer distributed network 195 00:19:39,857 --> 00:19:42,317 that runs on private public key cryptography 196 00:19:42,317 --> 00:19:48,897 really sort of cements private property rights for money in the 21st century, 197 00:19:48,897 --> 00:19:50,617 which cannot be understated. 198 00:19:50,737 --> 00:19:54,097 And to your point, I don't think we have even scratched the surface 199 00:19:54,097 --> 00:19:58,397 of the types of systems that we can build on top of that primitive. 200 00:19:59,937 --> 00:20:03,717 Yeah. And I think, I mean, the two main points I emphasize, and if anyone from the admin is 201 00:20:03,717 --> 00:20:08,577 actually listening or anyone high up, like these are two key takeaways that I hope people just 202 00:20:08,577 --> 00:20:14,837 take away in general. One is Bitcoin's audit function, which I really do think is probably 203 00:20:14,837 --> 00:20:21,517 one of the most under-emphasized features of the Bitcoin protocol. The fact that any third party 204 00:20:21,517 --> 00:20:27,017 you can download a server or download something and audit the entire supply of this money is, 205 00:20:27,357 --> 00:20:34,757 I mean, it's just completely novel. And also it's unmatched. I mean, you can't do that with 206 00:20:34,757 --> 00:20:40,917 US dollars. There's no USD server I can just download as Sam. And also no one knows how many 207 00:20:40,917 --> 00:20:46,777 US dollars exist. Euro dollars makes that worse, obviously. But even with gold, no one knows 208 00:20:46,777 --> 00:20:51,517 exactly how much gold exists in the world, even just above ground gold. And obviously, 209 00:20:51,517 --> 00:20:56,457 you're finding gold mines sort of as time goes on. But that function of Bitcoin is so, 210 00:20:56,617 --> 00:21:00,617 so important as it relates to any economy. But you're talking about a jurisdictionalist global 211 00:21:00,617 --> 00:21:04,577 economy and the money that powers it. So that point is really, really important, 212 00:21:04,897 --> 00:21:09,697 which is where the proof of reserves bit comes in. But the other point is the property rights. 213 00:21:10,037 --> 00:21:16,537 These property rights are baked in. There is no legislative body. There is no regulatory body 214 00:21:16,537 --> 00:21:21,857 that has to do anything here, the protocol itself can confirm and you can prove and you actually 215 00:21:21,857 --> 00:21:26,717 have the sovereignty to say that this is my asset. This is what I own. And you don't have 216 00:21:26,717 --> 00:21:30,277 the legal hurdles in between. I mean, doing that with, I mean, there's a reason why we have title 217 00:21:30,277 --> 00:21:35,997 insurance for homes. That's a difficult problem, even in our current system with probably the most 218 00:21:35,997 --> 00:21:41,337 basic asset that most people do own, which is their home. So if you can apply that sort of, 219 00:21:41,437 --> 00:21:45,517 if you can find a fix for that problem and do that at the level of money, again, I mean, 220 00:21:45,517 --> 00:21:49,857 And yeah, I just think it's incredible. 221 00:21:51,057 --> 00:21:51,237 Yeah. 222 00:21:51,937 --> 00:21:59,657 It's a bit of a tangent, but I'm recalling Alex Gladstein's speech from the summit earlier this week. 223 00:21:59,837 --> 00:22:01,177 And that's the other thing about this. 224 00:22:01,837 --> 00:22:05,817 I'm sure you've seen the memes, too, about what FHA put out on Wednesday. 225 00:22:05,817 --> 00:22:13,457 It's like it's all crypto is encompassing this sort of new guideline. 226 00:22:13,457 --> 00:22:19,157 and that worries me because like they just bundle in bitcoin with everything else and 227 00:22:19,157 --> 00:22:22,277 doesn't worry me like and that's the other thing there was a lot of misconceptions people 228 00:22:22,277 --> 00:22:26,077 thought it was like you can use bitcoin as collateral for loans which you can 229 00:22:26,077 --> 00:22:34,457 using some services like milo and others that already exist but um in terms of like 230 00:22:34,457 --> 00:22:39,697 separating bitcoin from crypto i don't want to say it rubbed me the wrong way but it does worry 231 00:22:39,697 --> 00:22:44,777 me that everything's getting lumped together because as we both know and most people listening 232 00:22:44,777 --> 00:22:51,137 to this know bitcoin is starkly different from crypto and has a completely different risk profile 233 00:22:51,137 --> 00:22:58,597 so in terms of creating a precedent of just like lumping them in together via this it's it's a bit 234 00:22:58,597 --> 00:23:03,937 unnerving too and i think we have to continue to do a good job because i think the last few years 235 00:23:03,937 --> 00:23:10,117 industry has been really good about drawing a line between bitcoin and broader crypto 236 00:23:10,117 --> 00:23:16,837 but like when it comes to things like this like proving your actual net worth like i think it's 237 00:23:16,837 --> 00:23:24,277 safe to say that uh net worth proven because you hold bitcoin versus holding fart coin is probably 238 00:23:24,277 --> 00:23:32,877 more legitimate and accurate over the long run i mean a lot of this again is is cultural um we see 239 00:23:32,877 --> 00:23:38,157 this in our conversations with banks all the time. They don't know what Bitcoin is. And by virtue of 240 00:23:38,157 --> 00:23:42,397 that, they also don't know what anything else in the space is either. So for them, we have to, 241 00:23:42,477 --> 00:23:46,957 and it's like chewing glass, we have to say crypto and use the term crypto because that's 242 00:23:46,957 --> 00:23:51,897 just what they know and understand while still advocating and emphasizing Bitcoin as a completely 243 00:23:51,897 --> 00:23:56,957 different thing in the space. So that's always been a challenge. I think it'll continue to be 244 00:23:56,957 --> 00:24:05,417 a challenge, not for too long. So I don't really knock Pulte in the FHFA for that too much, 245 00:24:05,437 --> 00:24:09,497 just because I think they're using language that most other financial institutions also use 246 00:24:09,497 --> 00:24:14,117 purely because of a lack of familiarity, maybe not even education, but just familiarity in the space. 247 00:24:15,257 --> 00:24:19,177 But in terms of being worried about it, I mean, Bitcoin is going to prove its merits on its own, 248 00:24:19,177 --> 00:24:24,057 and it has. And I think over time, that sort of separation is getting stronger and stronger. 249 00:24:24,057 --> 00:24:29,357 when we talk to banks, I mean, I'll tell you, no one cares about anything else except for Bitcoin. 250 00:24:30,237 --> 00:24:36,857 And stables is a close second, but that's really it. So I can't ever, I mean, I really don't 251 00:24:36,857 --> 00:24:44,137 imagine mortgages being underwritten with anything but Bitcoin for now. Maybe also stables, but I 252 00:24:44,137 --> 00:24:48,317 think that probably would be extensive it because they're very conservative. I mean, traditional 253 00:24:48,317 --> 00:24:52,697 finance is a very conservative industry. Well, I mean, within a reason, it should be conservative. 254 00:24:52,697 --> 00:25:00,877 But at least at a policy level, it's conservative. So I don't I'm not too concerned about, you know, things getting muddy too much. 255 00:25:00,877 --> 00:25:04,037 I think I think over time it'll be it'll be rather obvious if it isn't already. 256 00:25:05,177 --> 00:25:10,477 Yeah. And I don't want to be the boy you cried wolf because I've been saying this for like two or three cycles now. 257 00:25:10,497 --> 00:25:25,415 But I do feel like this is the one where it it become abundantly clear that Bitcoin is different If you just look at the pairs of Bitcoin and any other ETH BTC Sol BTC whatever it may be it all going down 258 00:25:25,615 --> 00:25:30,555 And the signal is with the pristine collateral asset, which is Bitcoin. 259 00:25:30,755 --> 00:25:33,935 And that's what's really exciting about this cycle is like Bitcoin 260 00:25:33,935 --> 00:25:36,235 is pristine collateral is beginning to be recognized. 261 00:25:37,575 --> 00:25:38,295 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 262 00:25:38,415 --> 00:25:41,375 I mean, the performance itself, obviously, like it's just number go up 263 00:25:41,375 --> 00:25:46,935 is really what most people, especially outside of space, care about. But culture shouldn't be 264 00:25:46,935 --> 00:25:51,435 understated either. I mean, you mentioned the BPI. They intentionally called themselves the Bitcoin 265 00:25:51,435 --> 00:25:54,555 Policy Institute when they could have picked a bunch of different names that were maybe more 266 00:25:54,555 --> 00:25:58,115 encompassing or more friendly or more familiar to the people that they'll be talking to. But they 267 00:25:58,115 --> 00:26:04,015 put their stake in the ground. Lucky for us and lucky for the whole space. And if you go to these, 268 00:26:04,315 --> 00:26:10,575 I mean, I've said this a lot on different panels, but if you compare, this is now kind of dated. 269 00:26:10,575 --> 00:26:15,015 So this is really like 2019 type of 2018 almost type of conference knowledge. 270 00:26:15,135 --> 00:26:19,795 But if you go to these different events and you meet different people, there's a clear difference in how they approach the space. 271 00:26:20,195 --> 00:26:25,855 And not to discredit other communities, but, you know, the Bitcoin space is much more serious. 272 00:26:27,275 --> 00:26:32,575 I mean, early on, I think that seriousness was more cypherpunk and maybe would have seemed a bit more threatening. 273 00:26:32,575 --> 00:26:42,875 But I think at the sort of professional level, which is sort of where we're at and where we're going towards, they are just a lot more, I don't have a better word, but legitimate. 274 00:26:43,955 --> 00:26:55,875 Having conversations with Bitcoiners, with serious Bitcoiners who are trying to promote policy and trying to move the needle, as opposed to having conversations with Ripple folks or with folks that are trying to promote DeFi is categorically different. 275 00:26:56,495 --> 00:27:00,275 And I think the culture is really just taking care of itself. 276 00:27:00,275 --> 00:27:05,915 yeah it's like we're not in it to make the money we're in it for the money which is like literally 277 00:27:05,915 --> 00:27:10,875 changing the money and you see that and i i completely agree and it's i guess it's hard to 278 00:27:10,875 --> 00:27:16,495 describe to any outsider who hasn't experienced it for themselves but i think what i'd like this 279 00:27:16,495 --> 00:27:20,175 week when you meet for bitcoin you're like we're thinking 30 40 years down the line thinking about 280 00:27:20,175 --> 00:27:24,375 our children the world they're going to live in where defi's thinking about like all right what's 281 00:27:24,375 --> 00:27:28,195 the next token that's going to launch and how are you gonna how are we gonna make a bag on that and 282 00:27:28,195 --> 00:27:34,015 rug and it's like it's completely unserious to the point where it's becoming laughable or it's 283 00:27:34,015 --> 00:27:41,895 like you it seems like you don't there's been no consistent principles uh even if i just i think 284 00:27:41,895 --> 00:27:48,575 ethereum's the great example of the uh caricature of it's like a shit coin that thought it was going 285 00:27:48,575 --> 00:27:54,315 to compete with bitcoin and just completely changed its principles on the go once every 286 00:27:54,315 --> 00:27:59,175 other year, it seems. Whereas Bitcoin has been pretty consistent. There'll only be 21 million 287 00:27:59,175 --> 00:28:04,015 nodes run the network. We're going to mine as much. We're going to get as much hash rate as we can. 288 00:28:04,515 --> 00:28:09,055 We're going to preserve sovereignty and we're going to integrate it into the financial system. 289 00:28:10,655 --> 00:28:15,815 Yeah. And I mean, to your point, like everything here is long term. Our perspective is long term. 290 00:28:15,815 --> 00:28:21,375 We think in decades, which is how empires typically think as well. In the Ethereum space, 291 00:28:21,375 --> 00:28:31,795 I mean, I think I think the demographic that's been most amenable to Ethereum's like world's computer, world's computing platform narrative has been have been people that made a lot of money in the dotcom boom. 292 00:28:32,455 --> 00:28:39,935 I think I think that that seems like a parallel if, you know, that was a good outcome for you. 293 00:28:40,275 --> 00:28:50,835 And I can see why that might be, you know, enticing, too, because it seems like it's that exact same thing, but a little bit more enhanced, a little bit more complicated than necessarily, but a little bit more enhanced. 294 00:28:51,375 --> 00:28:55,875 And I think Bitcoiners see that that's not really the value here. 295 00:28:55,875 --> 00:29:06,035 You might be able to do some relatively interesting things on an inferior database with inferior logic. 296 00:29:06,215 --> 00:29:16,635 But if you're here to fundamentally change the way money works, or if you recognize that money is fundamentally changing, then the answer is pretty obvious. 297 00:29:16,635 --> 00:29:22,215 So, yeah, I think I think with D.C. and I've spent more time there now that I care to admit. 298 00:29:22,375 --> 00:29:27,515 But in D.C., it's like I think they're starting to see that the admin has been incredibly helpful as well. 299 00:29:27,635 --> 00:29:31,055 And we have, you know, crypto czar. So that's so that's helping. 300 00:29:32,415 --> 00:29:35,735 But, yeah, the culture for me is the big is the big differentiator. 301 00:29:37,255 --> 00:29:44,435 Yeah. And that's I mean, it's I'm very happy to see that D.C. is waking up and this was discussed. 302 00:29:44,435 --> 00:29:51,115 And I think we've discussed it before, but you mentioned it to like the early years, Bitcoin, very cypherpunk focus, very serious ideals. 303 00:29:51,115 --> 00:29:59,135 And I think those ideals still exist at the base layer of Bitcoin, both socially and at the protocol level. 304 00:30:00,015 --> 00:30:07,315 But as we've seen over the course of years, particularly during the Biden administration, like you may not care about political power, but it cares about you. 305 00:30:07,835 --> 00:30:11,675 And you have to engage with that understanding in mind. 306 00:30:11,675 --> 00:30:14,855 And we've done a good job of doing that in the last two years. 307 00:30:14,855 --> 00:30:26,015 And I think, hearkening back to Trump's comments that I mentioned earlier, I think the administration does realize the opportunity of Bitcoin at a $2 trillion, $2.14 trillion market cap. 308 00:30:26,275 --> 00:30:31,695 And if it really is going to be the next global reserve currency, it'll be hundreds of trillions of dollars. 309 00:30:31,795 --> 00:30:37,855 So the opportunity to really win in this market is on the table if you're thinking at a nation state level. 310 00:30:37,855 --> 00:30:45,895 and it makes sense that if you understand that that you would try to make sure that your country 311 00:30:45,895 --> 00:30:53,655 is positioned well in terms of the industry being enabled to flourish and again i've said it earlier 312 00:30:53,655 --> 00:30:58,755 but i think that's what most bitcoiners particularly those of us with the cypherpunk 313 00:30:58,755 --> 00:31:03,795 ideals that the network really grew up on worry about is like it getting cocked by traditional 314 00:31:03,795 --> 00:31:07,835 finance and you've been having conversations with banks that's one thing i'm interested to get your 315 00:31:07,835 --> 00:31:12,835 perspective on is like who influences who more do the banks influence bitcoin more does bitcoin 316 00:31:12,835 --> 00:31:17,735 influence the banks more over the long run or the financial system because i've been running with 317 00:31:17,735 --> 00:31:22,315 this mean everybody's saying the financialization of bitcoin i'm saying no it's the bitcoinization 318 00:31:22,315 --> 00:31:27,195 of finance which isn't a bad thing yeah yeah yeah exactly i mean i think that's what we're seeing 319 00:31:27,195 --> 00:31:31,175 to be honest that from a from a company perspective as a ceo we've been sort of prepping for either 320 00:31:31,175 --> 00:31:35,075 outcome because we may have our um assumption that we're not sure which is going to play out 321 00:31:35,075 --> 00:31:35,915 but I think it is the latter. 322 00:31:36,075 --> 00:31:37,155 I think I haven't heard, 323 00:31:37,235 --> 00:31:37,915 I hadn't heard that term, 324 00:31:37,955 --> 00:31:39,035 but that is, I think what's happening 325 00:31:39,035 --> 00:31:40,315 is a big quantization of finance, 326 00:31:40,355 --> 00:31:41,395 which is so exciting to see. 327 00:31:42,835 --> 00:31:44,495 Just your point about like nation state adoption. 328 00:31:44,635 --> 00:31:45,595 I mean, the leapfrog effect 329 00:31:45,595 --> 00:31:47,495 is what I'm most excited about is, 330 00:31:47,855 --> 00:31:48,675 you know, sort of, 331 00:31:49,075 --> 00:31:50,775 obviously it's the ones that have the least to lose 332 00:31:50,775 --> 00:31:52,955 or just getting destroyed by the existing system 333 00:31:52,955 --> 00:31:54,495 that are going to adopt something that's like, 334 00:31:54,975 --> 00:31:56,635 I mean, I guess technically unproven 335 00:31:56,635 --> 00:31:59,375 over a long, over a longer time horizon. 336 00:32:00,595 --> 00:32:02,055 But, you know, if El Salvador genuinely 337 00:32:02,055 --> 00:32:03,635 does become the Singapore of the West 338 00:32:03,635 --> 00:32:08,095 And if Bhutan becomes like Hong Kong, things shift. 339 00:32:08,395 --> 00:32:10,915 And that's just exciting to watch and sort of live through. 340 00:32:12,575 --> 00:32:18,635 One thing I'm honestly a little bit apprehensive about and not to be a wet blanket, but just 341 00:32:18,635 --> 00:32:24,855 to just to be cautious is sort of the apolitical nature of Bitcoin and being too closely aligned 342 00:32:24,855 --> 00:32:26,175 with one side or the other. 343 00:32:26,815 --> 00:32:30,175 I think that's important because, you know, administrations change politics itself. 344 00:32:30,175 --> 00:32:34,615 there's this phrase that politics is like an orphan child 345 00:32:34,615 --> 00:32:38,595 it sort of goes 346 00:32:38,595 --> 00:32:42,475 with the wind and you've got to be careful and you've got to be pretty cognizant of what you relate yourself 347 00:32:42,475 --> 00:32:46,515 to closely too so I'm incredibly thankful 348 00:32:46,515 --> 00:32:50,395 for now not living in fear that my corporate bank account, my personal bank account 349 00:32:50,395 --> 00:32:54,455 might get closed, that's nice, it feels less like I'm 350 00:32:54,455 --> 00:32:58,415 in the Soviet Union but at the same time I think as Bitcoiners we gotta 351 00:32:58,415 --> 00:33:05,815 you know it's the whole uh don't what is it uh don't don't trust verify eat those including 352 00:33:05,815 --> 00:33:10,955 the politicians i agree with that uh that last statement but i push back like 353 00:33:10,955 --> 00:33:17,275 yeah uh i don't know look what's going on in new york city right now like those people will never 354 00:33:17,275 --> 00:33:22,855 get bitcoin like overt socialists like i'm talking about zo zo ran uh mom donnie whatever 355 00:33:22,855 --> 00:33:29,475 his name is who just won the democratic primary like that's i agree bitcoin's for anyone it's for 356 00:33:29,475 --> 00:33:34,935 everyone in one c is at both sides of the aisle but there are and i i tweeted this out i'm not 357 00:33:34,935 --> 00:33:42,415 sure if you saw the um the email that peter teal sent suck uh mark andreason and a few others in 358 00:33:42,415 --> 00:33:47,555 2020 asking like the millennial question and basically brought the fact like people our age 359 00:33:47,555 --> 00:33:55,515 you and i uh most of us uh most of our demo like has student loans can't buy a house 360 00:33:55,515 --> 00:34:00,295 delaying family formation many still living with their parents and they have this like 361 00:34:00,295 --> 00:34:06,775 um they have this very negative outlook on the future because they can't build capital 362 00:34:06,775 --> 00:34:13,575 and they're turning to these socialist ideas which many were forced on us via indoctrination 363 00:34:13,575 --> 00:34:18,375 via the schooling system but nevertheless they're like identifying the problem which is wealth gap 364 00:34:18,375 --> 00:34:25,875 inflation can't afford anything and a lot of them are moving to the wrong solution so i i think 365 00:34:25,875 --> 00:34:31,975 conservatives specifically recognize that obviously socialism isn't isn't the solution but i think 366 00:34:31,975 --> 00:34:41,075 we should lean into that recognition because of millennials and now gen z specifically sort of 367 00:34:41,075 --> 00:34:46,535 leaning towards socialist tendencies because they feel like they have no, no other way to, 368 00:34:46,635 --> 00:34:50,995 to make it in the world. So they're just going to take things from others to really embrace Bitcoin. 369 00:34:50,995 --> 00:34:56,775 Like a tweet I sent out is like any conservative who really cares about the encroachment of these 370 00:34:56,775 --> 00:35:03,035 socialist tendencies across the country should be vehemently incorporating Bitcoin into as many 371 00:35:03,035 --> 00:35:08,895 verticals as possible. Yeah, of course. I mean, I would, I would, I would, I would relate that 372 00:35:08,895 --> 00:35:13,295 more libertarianism because Bitcoin, I think, is the application of libertarianism. 373 00:35:13,295 --> 00:35:17,935 I don't think there was any practical way to actually be a libertarian or do anything 374 00:35:17,935 --> 00:35:19,535 about that until Bitcoin came into play. 375 00:35:19,995 --> 00:35:23,275 So if you're a libertarian and not a Bitcoiner, you're probably confused. 376 00:35:24,795 --> 00:35:26,515 Remember, in politics, it's all about power. 377 00:35:26,835 --> 00:35:28,275 I mean, money is a function of power. 378 00:35:28,735 --> 00:35:36,575 What's surprising to me is the lack of left-leaning governments and left-leaning even provincial 379 00:35:36,575 --> 00:35:40,695 governments that are looking at Bitcoin or been thinking about adopting Bitcoin. 380 00:35:41,335 --> 00:35:44,855 I think technically, Bukele, as a populist, I think he was a little bit more left-leaning 381 00:35:44,855 --> 00:35:46,355 with respect to El Salvadorian politics. 382 00:35:46,915 --> 00:35:54,675 But if the game is power consolidation, it should work just as well for them as it does 383 00:35:54,675 --> 00:35:55,295 for the conservatives. 384 00:35:57,235 --> 00:36:00,835 And knowing that conservatives and really just any political party that happens to be 385 00:36:00,835 --> 00:36:05,035 in power is looking to control and maintain power as best as they can. 386 00:36:05,035 --> 00:36:11,075 And Bitcoin as an asset that's appreciating in value and will have economic influence globally just serves that function. 387 00:36:11,715 --> 00:36:18,055 So I don't know. I've been thinking about that, too, the sort of conservative and liberal dynamic in which way it sort of goes into. 388 00:36:18,175 --> 00:36:23,755 And I'm not convinced it's either way. I just think at a governmental level, it's about power consolidation. 389 00:36:23,755 --> 00:36:29,915 yeah no and i was uh i didn't get to bring that up but i think the the point i was like 390 00:36:29,915 --> 00:36:36,795 being an opportunist as a bitcoiner like when you see that one party like and that's why i think 391 00:36:36,795 --> 00:36:43,555 i think having like the human rights foundation in bitcoin like this i won't i won't beat around 392 00:36:43,555 --> 00:36:48,595 the bush like i definitely have more conservative values i'm i've been married since i was 25 i've 393 00:36:48,595 --> 00:36:53,455 got children i care about their education i don't want the school system transing my kids 394 00:36:53,455 --> 00:37:00,575 like i'm very conservative in that regard and it just seems opportunistic right now to really 395 00:37:00,575 --> 00:37:04,975 lean into the conservative side of the aisle who recognizes these problems and we can 396 00:37:04,975 --> 00:37:10,615 highlight to them hey bitcoin can help you achieve a lot of the goals that you have and solve a lot 397 00:37:10,615 --> 00:37:14,855 of the problems that you have but that's why i love the human rights foundation you go like the 398 00:37:14,855 --> 00:37:20,635 other side like the human rights activists which typically associated with the left like hey bitcoin 399 00:37:20,635 --> 00:37:25,355 can empower these individuals too that was my favorite track on wednesday was the hour-long 400 00:37:25,355 --> 00:37:34,395 track of all the activists explaining how they use bitcoin in iran uh in uh gaza in russia in 401 00:37:34,395 --> 00:37:40,155 ukraine in venezuela you have like all these different sort of problem areas of the world 402 00:37:40,155 --> 00:37:45,035 that many people feel very passionate about on both sides of each individual problem 403 00:37:45,035 --> 00:38:03,532 Bitcoin is just there in the middle for anybody who subjected to the horrors of either infringing external army or despotic government internally And so you can like I guess the point I trying to make is like Bitcoin so dynamic 404 00:38:03,532 --> 00:38:07,112 that you have the ability to sort of like lean into whoever needs it most at any given 405 00:38:07,112 --> 00:38:07,752 point in time. 406 00:38:08,772 --> 00:38:09,212 Yeah, exactly. 407 00:38:09,432 --> 00:38:11,872 That's what I think is so incredible about its flexibility. 408 00:38:12,432 --> 00:38:16,172 And remember, we're looking at this from the perspective of the US political spectrum and 409 00:38:16,172 --> 00:38:17,472 it's different globally. 410 00:38:17,612 --> 00:38:19,292 I mean, Europe generally is just more left leaning. 411 00:38:19,472 --> 00:38:20,912 So that spectrum just looks different. 412 00:38:21,932 --> 00:38:26,392 But yeah, I mean, I think the point I'm trying to make here is just that it I still think it's apolitical. 413 00:38:26,592 --> 00:38:33,712 I know in the U.S. it is being embraced by the conservative side of the political aisle more so. 414 00:38:33,772 --> 00:38:36,632 And that's a great thing for us. I mean, there's nothing wrong with that. And I'm happy about that. 415 00:38:37,672 --> 00:38:47,032 But because it's jurisdictionalism, because it really doesn't function any different as it relates to the culture that it implements in and the political nuances, 416 00:38:47,192 --> 00:38:50,152 whatever that culture might be leaning to at that time period or otherwise. 417 00:38:50,152 --> 00:38:55,652 um bitcoin's still gonna the blocks are still gonna get mined and transactions are still gonna 418 00:38:55,652 --> 00:39:00,692 process through and so um i just yeah just just just just being aware of that fact i think is 419 00:39:00,692 --> 00:39:04,592 something important in sort of this wave of adoption that we're going through and this like 420 00:39:04,592 --> 00:39:09,632 zeitgeist and this insane amount of dopamine hits that we're getting just watching this thing happen 421 00:39:09,632 --> 00:39:15,212 that's been a big theme of mine on this show and in the newsletter the last two months is like 422 00:39:15,212 --> 00:39:19,132 they're hitting you with dopamine matt and i just talked about a rabbit hole recap like 423 00:39:19,132 --> 00:39:25,792 the u.s bombs iran's nuclear enrichment facilities last friday that feels like a month ago it feels 424 00:39:25,792 --> 00:39:30,332 like that narrative's already beginning to be swept under the rug we had elon saying that trump 425 00:39:30,332 --> 00:39:36,172 was on the epstein list like the week before that and there's a number of these dopamine hits that 426 00:39:36,172 --> 00:39:41,472 i've forgotten that only happened a month ago and you know i've been telling people just blinders on 427 00:39:41,472 --> 00:39:47,052 stay focused keep building uh if you're working a job make sure you're not you're saving more than 428 00:39:47,052 --> 00:39:53,472 spending saving that in bitcoin just like that's what i i've been intentionally trying to say out 429 00:39:53,472 --> 00:39:59,812 of the day-to-day morass of the news cycle because it's just completely distracting and nothing ever 430 00:39:59,812 --> 00:40:04,352 happens well and that's why it's important to think like and i and i mentioned this earlier like 431 00:40:04,352 --> 00:40:12,372 um just geopolitically you know iran china russia these old empires and and the remnants of really 432 00:40:12,372 --> 00:40:18,272 do think in terms of centuries. And they're willing to, you know, people are sort of expendable 433 00:40:18,272 --> 00:40:23,632 in that pursuit as well. And that is incredibly austere for people living at whatever time they 434 00:40:23,632 --> 00:40:28,172 may be afflicted by those kind of things. But for the empire itself, it does generate a long 435 00:40:28,172 --> 00:40:33,512 lasting culture. And I think in the US, you know, we've got a really short memory. And I think a lot 436 00:40:33,512 --> 00:40:39,752 of that has to do with the fact that we're still so young. You know, Iraq was not long ago, and 437 00:40:39,752 --> 00:40:46,392 we're getting the exact same pitch deck on going to war again in the Middle East. 438 00:40:47,092 --> 00:40:50,312 And I haven't seen any comparisons side by side. 439 00:40:50,412 --> 00:40:52,752 And I was pretty young when we first went into Iraq. 440 00:40:52,932 --> 00:40:55,952 But from what I remember and what I've researched and what I'm seeing now, 441 00:40:56,012 --> 00:40:57,372 it's the exact same talking points. 442 00:40:57,812 --> 00:41:00,192 And frankly, a lot of it's the exact same people as well promoting this. 443 00:41:00,752 --> 00:41:04,832 And we have that short-term memory, which I think can be destructive in the short term. 444 00:41:05,032 --> 00:41:08,952 But Bitcoiners, and I think it's important to emphasize this, 445 00:41:08,952 --> 00:41:12,052 do you think on a longer term perspective obviously you've got your day-to-day stuff 446 00:41:12,052 --> 00:41:15,472 you've got your bills to pay day-to-day so you have to make sure those are accounted for and 447 00:41:15,472 --> 00:41:20,012 taken care of but having that decades long you know we're individuals so thinking in centuries 448 00:41:20,012 --> 00:41:24,132 is a bit ridiculous unless you're michael saylor but for us thinking in decades i think is really 449 00:41:24,132 --> 00:41:29,212 critical and that will enable our survival um either as sovereign individuals or as a collective 450 00:41:29,212 --> 00:41:33,952 culture and hopefully it's the latter yeah weapons of mass destruction back on the table hey i 451 00:41:33,952 --> 00:41:41,812 remember that one i remember i was down in south carolina 9-11 happened in a couple years after and 452 00:41:41,812 --> 00:41:46,752 i vividly remember being like fourth or fifth grade and like them having like straw polls for 453 00:41:46,752 --> 00:41:50,932 like going to war and the school was like beating the war drums like we're going to iraq there was 454 00:41:50,932 --> 00:41:57,532 like what like this is insane uh luckily today we have better communications technology to get 455 00:41:57,532 --> 00:42:02,792 good messages out there and i do think i think we saw first in syria when obama tried to bomb them 456 00:42:02,792 --> 00:42:09,912 for the chemical weapons stuff that was very hand wavy social media people got on social media 457 00:42:09,912 --> 00:42:13,492 like fuck this and i think that's happening with iran right hopefully it is happening 458 00:42:13,492 --> 00:42:18,312 with iran right now too um but to your point going back to like long-term thinking and 459 00:42:18,312 --> 00:42:25,772 money is power particularly within politics it reminded me of a presentation turd meester gave 460 00:42:25,772 --> 00:42:31,372 at bitcoin park austin last year uh during the bitcoin urbanism little event that we had there 461 00:42:31,372 --> 00:42:33,332 And it's like it is crazy when you think about it. 462 00:42:33,372 --> 00:42:34,852 Bitcoin continues on this trajectory. 463 00:42:35,452 --> 00:42:42,232 And I think this is this is manifested in the last two years with the political activists, activism that Bitcoiners have been engaged in. 464 00:42:42,392 --> 00:42:46,732 Like Bitcoin continues, let's say a 50 percent CAGR over the next decade. 465 00:42:47,352 --> 00:42:53,732 I guess I think the stats turn throughout there is like one half of the point one percent will be Bitcoiners in 10 years. 466 00:42:53,732 --> 00:43:00,932 So that continues. And that is a lot of wealth that can be used to affect the change that we want to see in the world. 467 00:43:02,332 --> 00:43:04,712 Yeah, that's I mean, it's a it's a good thing and a bad thing. 468 00:43:04,752 --> 00:43:12,292 I think you can get a bit jaded, you know, especially being in your 30s and having seen what's sort of happened live streamed over the last 10 years and continues to be. 469 00:43:12,812 --> 00:43:13,932 That's a good thing and a bad thing. 470 00:43:13,972 --> 00:43:15,412 I mean, you know what? 471 00:43:15,412 --> 00:43:17,312 How are Bitcoin is going to be seen in that world? 472 00:43:17,732 --> 00:43:25,772 How are Bitcoin is going to be seen in a world where there are generations that never even had the opportunity to look at and own Bitcoin like we did? 473 00:43:26,412 --> 00:43:27,992 Granted, this wasn't just by accident. 474 00:43:28,132 --> 00:43:30,532 A lot of us suffered and put in the work. 475 00:43:30,532 --> 00:43:42,432 But yeah, that's something I think about quite often is if this does play out to scale, which it is, what, yeah, how does the culture change and how are we perceived in that culture? 476 00:43:42,592 --> 00:43:43,832 And I don't have an answer yet. 477 00:43:44,592 --> 00:43:47,372 Yeah, I think we had this discussion over coffee a couple of weeks ago. 478 00:43:50,012 --> 00:43:53,652 That's why I think what you're doing is so important, not only you, but others. 479 00:43:53,652 --> 00:43:58,272 I completely agree with that sort of thought experiment. 480 00:43:58,272 --> 00:44:17,712 Like, all right, what do people like? I, in terms of like my next 10 years, like the push I'm making over the next decade is we need to integrate Bitcoin into as many people's lives as possible without having direct exposure so that they experience the benefits of having even like proxy exposure to Bitcoin in their pension plans. 481 00:44:17,712 --> 00:44:36,592 or if it's dual collateralized with real estate and like in their neighborhoods, if there's enough Bitcoin sort of dual collateralized buildings and houses in a neighborhood that helps keep the neighborhood afloat while inflation continues unabashed like that. 482 00:44:36,592 --> 00:44:46,792 I think that is something that we don't talk about enough and like why tools like Hoseki are so important because it just normalizes and makes Bitcoin simply another option in the incumbent system. 483 00:44:46,792 --> 00:45:01,632 Like that's I think I won't speak for everybody, but that's like personally what I think like the number one goal should be is like people aren't going to go on cash app on strike on river and like smash by DCA with their paychecks. 484 00:45:01,632 --> 00:45:05,292 Like it's incumbent on us to make sure that they have exposure without even knowing it. 485 00:45:06,032 --> 00:45:15,332 Yeah. And I know you agree with this, but the idea of sort of building and having my own citadel on an island by myself or with my tiny little community, like isn't that enticing? 486 00:45:15,332 --> 00:45:20,572 what's more enticing is enabling something that can get rid of these forever wars that can get 487 00:45:20,572 --> 00:45:25,792 rid of this you know that slavery that we live in um that's exciting and that's the world that i 488 00:45:25,792 --> 00:45:31,012 think a lot of us are building towards so yeah we're starting with hey i'm sam i own this bitcoin 489 00:45:31,012 --> 00:45:35,552 let me do something with it and um you know i'm obviously speaking in simplistic terms but i think 490 00:45:35,552 --> 00:45:41,672 that's the building block for an incredible new world yeah but it's like again it's normalizing 491 00:45:41,672 --> 00:45:44,452 Like that's why we launched opportunity costs to just like normalize pricing 492 00:45:44,452 --> 00:45:45,652 things in Bitcoin for people, 493 00:45:45,652 --> 00:45:48,392 like create that memetic power to get out there. 494 00:45:48,412 --> 00:45:51,512 But like simple things like being able to go to plaid and like, 495 00:45:51,572 --> 00:45:51,652 Oh, 496 00:45:51,672 --> 00:45:52,712 there's a Hoseki button. 497 00:45:52,832 --> 00:45:53,352 What is that? 498 00:45:53,412 --> 00:45:54,032 Like click that. 499 00:45:54,132 --> 00:45:54,272 Oh, 500 00:45:54,332 --> 00:45:54,632 you can, 501 00:45:54,692 --> 00:45:56,972 you can connect your Hoseki via plaid. 502 00:45:57,052 --> 00:45:58,312 It's becoming completely normal. 503 00:45:58,412 --> 00:46:00,312 Like Bitcoin is part of the economy. 504 00:46:00,412 --> 00:46:02,652 You can go to steak and shake and buy a, 505 00:46:02,652 --> 00:46:05,652 buy your burger and milkshake with, 506 00:46:05,772 --> 00:46:06,392 with Bitcoin. 507 00:46:06,532 --> 00:46:07,212 Like it's, 508 00:46:07,292 --> 00:46:08,812 it's incredible. 509 00:46:09,592 --> 00:46:09,712 I'll, 510 00:46:09,792 --> 00:46:10,772 I'll take that as a win. 511 00:46:10,952 --> 00:46:11,232 Yeah. 512 00:46:11,672 --> 00:46:28,872 All right. So let's bring this back to the core subject of why we're here to talk, which is this FHA, FHA, whatever the acronym alphabet soup agency for housing that owns Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac. 513 00:46:28,872 --> 00:46:47,632 What would you like to see from them moving forward, just engaging with us and recognizing how can we best equip them with the knowledge to understand that people should not only be able to, but can hold Bitcoin in self custody and verify that they own they own Bitcoin? 514 00:46:48,252 --> 00:46:57,072 Yeah, so we built this from first principles. If we want to see this Bitcoin financial system take place, then this is how it will have to function. 515 00:46:57,072 --> 00:47:13,552 And so now that FHFA has sort of ordered this and now that it's been approved in a more governmental sense, judicial, not judicial, but in a governmental sense, now it's sort of question and answer time. 516 00:47:13,552 --> 00:47:24,012 So what I would love to see is engagement is, first of all, understanding from them exactly what the requirements are at a more nuanced level to really get this underwriting process going. 517 00:47:24,012 --> 00:47:28,452 And it's always hearing from us as well as to what this asset can do. 518 00:47:28,772 --> 00:47:38,192 Because, again, I think the first push with having to move your funds to exchanges in order to qualify for these types of things is probably just low hanging fruit. 519 00:47:38,492 --> 00:47:43,492 And it's the most obvious thing, I think, for a much more mature industry, which is where we're at now. 520 00:47:44,032 --> 00:47:49,272 But really taking the time to understand the asymmetric benefits of what Bitcoin can do is critical. 521 00:47:49,812 --> 00:47:52,392 So I would just love more engagement from the government. 522 00:47:52,392 --> 00:47:59,852 Again, folks from the BPI are doing all the live work in terms of providing all the educational resources and providing the resources for these questions. 523 00:48:00,632 --> 00:48:01,812 But yeah, I'd love engagement. 524 00:48:03,932 --> 00:48:07,872 That's engaged. Bill Pulte. Logan, we're going to clip this. We're going to clip that last part. 525 00:48:08,252 --> 00:48:11,912 We're going to get it going on Twitter, Noster, wherever. 526 00:48:12,372 --> 00:48:14,312 We're going to start the conversation. Bill, I know you're a Bitcoiner. 527 00:48:14,832 --> 00:48:17,532 I don't know if you remember, he was doing like Bitcoin giveaways during COVID. 528 00:48:17,532 --> 00:48:23,412 uh he was a he like retweet this and i'll give one random person like ten hundred a thousand 529 00:48:23,412 --> 00:48:30,192 dollars worth of bitcoin he gets it um at least he had exposure to bitcoin but no i think it's uh 530 00:48:30,192 --> 00:48:35,112 and again i do want to reiterate it's not perfect but it's a step in the right direction and that 531 00:48:35,112 --> 00:48:40,232 is incredibly encouraging to see especially considering what we just went through in the 532 00:48:40,232 --> 00:48:48,472 previous administration um for four years and i'm incredibly bullish uh and let's end it on 533 00:48:48,472 --> 00:48:53,272 your thoughts like how how were you thinking about i know we're thinking in decades but 534 00:48:53,272 --> 00:49:00,752 in your mind like what is the highest priority in the next year two years three years 535 00:49:00,752 --> 00:49:07,692 i mean really just continuing in the direction we're going into i mean it's moving much faster 536 00:49:07,692 --> 00:49:09,292 than I anticipated or expected. 537 00:49:10,872 --> 00:49:15,492 I'm writing a piece now that hopefully I can sort of put my thoughts together a little 538 00:49:15,492 --> 00:49:17,552 bit more succinctly. 539 00:49:17,672 --> 00:49:21,272 But I think understanding where we are and what we're trying to accomplish is critical. 540 00:49:21,532 --> 00:49:24,572 So my perspective, where we are is a third world country. 541 00:49:26,292 --> 00:49:29,312 We are just moving from cars, from horses to cars. 542 00:49:29,732 --> 00:49:31,252 There's no infrastructure for these cars. 543 00:49:31,852 --> 00:49:32,932 There are no gas stations. 544 00:49:33,052 --> 00:49:34,012 There's no traffic lights. 545 00:49:35,012 --> 00:49:35,732 Roads aren't paved. 546 00:49:35,732 --> 00:49:38,032 and we're in that exact same spot. 547 00:49:38,172 --> 00:49:39,252 Now, things are moving quickly. 548 00:49:39,852 --> 00:49:42,032 Roads pretty much are getting paved. 549 00:49:42,112 --> 00:49:43,432 We're still missing some gas stations, 550 00:49:43,652 --> 00:49:46,632 but I would just love to see 551 00:49:46,632 --> 00:49:48,512 more Bitcoin financial products, 552 00:49:48,592 --> 00:49:50,092 more interesting Bitcoin financial products, 553 00:49:50,472 --> 00:49:51,752 hopefully leveraging our platform 554 00:49:51,752 --> 00:49:53,252 and really expanding this, 555 00:49:53,332 --> 00:49:54,612 the capability that it can get to. 556 00:49:55,752 --> 00:49:57,532 But yeah, or the way you put it, 557 00:49:57,632 --> 00:49:58,992 the Bitcoinization of finance 558 00:49:58,992 --> 00:50:00,212 is what I really want this next year 559 00:50:00,212 --> 00:50:01,092 to be focused on. 560 00:50:01,692 --> 00:50:02,692 We're going to make it happen. 561 00:50:02,932 --> 00:50:04,112 Where can anybody listening to this 562 00:50:04,112 --> 00:50:05,132 learn more about Hoseki? 563 00:50:05,732 --> 00:50:07,372 what you guys are up to and how they can use it. 564 00:50:08,092 --> 00:50:11,032 Yeah, we're at www.hoseki.app, 565 00:50:11,272 --> 00:50:14,092 at Hoseki app on X or Twitter, 566 00:50:14,092 --> 00:50:16,972 and at Sam Abbasi on X or Twitter. 567 00:50:18,392 --> 00:50:20,072 We'll link to all that in the show notes, Sam. 568 00:50:20,572 --> 00:50:22,432 I know you've got an event to attend to tonight. 569 00:50:22,512 --> 00:50:23,712 I hope you enjoy your Friday night, 570 00:50:23,732 --> 00:50:27,092 and thank you for hopping on quickly this Friday afternoon. 571 00:50:27,392 --> 00:50:29,252 I think the timing was perfect for this. 572 00:50:30,072 --> 00:50:31,132 Yeah, no, I appreciate the time. 573 00:50:31,252 --> 00:50:31,592 Thanks, Marty. 574 00:50:32,872 --> 00:50:33,212 All right. 575 00:50:33,452 --> 00:50:34,112 Peace and love, freaks. 576 00:50:34,652 --> 00:50:34,812 Okay. 577 00:50:35,732 --> 00:50:35,852 Thank you.