1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:09,920
You've had a dynamic where money has become freer than free.

2
00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:13,040
We talk about a Fed just gone nuts.

3
00:00:13,500 --> 00:00:15,680
All the central banks going nuts.

4
00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:17,880
So it's all acting like safe haven.

5
00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:25,260
I believe that in a world where central bankers are tripping over themselves to devalue their currency, Bitcoin wins.

6
00:00:25,340 --> 00:00:28,480
In the world of fiat currencies, Bitcoin is the victor.

7
00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:31,360
I mean, that's part of the bull case for Bitcoin.

8
00:00:31,780 --> 00:00:34,240
If you're not paying attention, you probably should be.

9
00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:40,080
Francis, I'm ashamed to admit it, but it's been seven years since you've been on the show.

10
00:00:40,180 --> 00:00:40,720
Welcome back.

11
00:00:41,820 --> 00:00:43,680
It has been seven years.

12
00:00:43,820 --> 00:00:43,960
Wow.

13
00:00:44,020 --> 00:00:44,120
Yeah.

14
00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:49,560
The last time was in San Francisco, I believe, at the Bitcoin 2019 conference.

15
00:00:50,020 --> 00:00:51,320
The first ever Bitcoin conference.

16
00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:56,440
I found out I was expecting my first child that day, right after we recorded.

17
00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:58,440
So I remember that day vividly.

18
00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:08,180
nice uh but we progress children have been born raised a little bit since then uh bitcoin has

19
00:01:08,180 --> 00:01:13,260
persisted and things are going on we got the bulls on parade in france we're going to start off with

20
00:01:13,260 --> 00:01:19,320
what you and your team at bull bitcoin have been doing in terms of trying to protect your users

21
00:01:19,320 --> 00:01:26,800
right to privacy particularly in france where they've implemented this dac8 dac8 um which stems

22
00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:34,080
from from mica i believe which is very invasive to privacy and obviously france is a hotbed for

23
00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:39,920
five dollar wrench attacks you guys are on the ground there obviously serving customers and are

24
00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:45,280
having to deal with this up close and personal so i think we just start there what's going on with

25
00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:52,800
dak8 mica mica however you pronounce it and how oppressive are these governments getting in terms

26
00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:55,420
of trying to collect user data.

27
00:01:56,940 --> 00:02:02,060
Yeah, so DAC8 is a very interesting piece of legislation

28
00:02:02,060 --> 00:02:04,220
because very few people know about it.

29
00:02:04,220 --> 00:02:08,880
And it is, in my opinion, the single biggest threat

30
00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:12,420
to both the cypherpunk principles of Bitcoin

31
00:02:12,420 --> 00:02:15,920
and to the lives of our users.

32
00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:19,940
So the backstory of DAC8 is that in 2021,

33
00:02:20,500 --> 00:02:22,760
kind of like at the peak of the COVID tyranny,

34
00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:28,400
the G20 countries had a meeting, probably, I don't know, in Davis or something, you know,

35
00:02:28,420 --> 00:02:34,120
one of those globalist hangouts. And they decided during that meeting that Bitcoin posed

36
00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:39,280
an existential threat to the ability of governments to finance themselves.

37
00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:45,160
And when you look at kind of like the minutes and, you know, announcements of that meeting,

38
00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:53,000
they basically decided that tax evaders are going to bankrupt the state with Bitcoin

39
00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:55,540
and that they needed to do something about that.

40
00:02:55,680 --> 00:03:01,740
So the G20 mandated the OECD, another globalist organization,

41
00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:04,200
to come up with a solution to that problem.

42
00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:07,400
And that solution is something that they came up with,

43
00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:10,860
which is called CARF, the Crypto Asset Reporting Framework.

44
00:03:10,860 --> 00:03:31,660
And CARF is basically a program or methodology of collecting all of crypto users' transaction information and identity into a big database and allowing countries to share that database with each other.

45
00:03:31,660 --> 00:03:40,840
And in the EU, and as soon as the OECD came up with CARF, like 70 countries on earth pledged to implement CARF.

46
00:03:40,860 --> 00:03:56,520
So this is a purely technocratic globalist thing. But then the national governments need to implement this in their national legislation. And in Europe, they did that at the European Union level with something called DAC-8, Directive 8, or also called DAC-8.

47
00:03:56,520 --> 00:04:25,000
So what DACA does is basically turn every single crypto company into a data collection, aggregation, and transmission platform where every year you have to report all of your users' financial transactions, their volumes and their cost of acquisition and their identity, their home address, everything about them to your national government.

48
00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:32,040
But what's even worse than that is that DACAID allows EU countries to share that data with each other.

49
00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:35,120
So, for example, we bought Bitcoin. We're incorporated in France.

50
00:04:35,420 --> 00:04:38,320
So we share this data with the French tax authority.

51
00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:43,720
But then the French tax authority shares this data with the German tax authority, with the Dutch tax authority or whatever.

52
00:04:43,900 --> 00:04:54,300
So what it in effect creates is a big fucking list of crypto users and how much Bitcoin they're buying and how much Bitcoin they're selling.

53
00:04:54,300 --> 00:05:04,680
every single year. And that is what I would say a very big rupture compared to the system of KYC

54
00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:10,980
that we've had before. And I'm going to go off on a little tangent here, but we've already had a

55
00:05:10,980 --> 00:05:18,860
globalist institution force national governments essentially to implement these KYC regimes,

56
00:05:18,860 --> 00:05:23,020
and that is the FETF, the Financial Action Task Force. So the Financial Action Task Force

57
00:05:23,020 --> 00:05:27,040
was the, and I believe that is the IMF

58
00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:30,000
that is like the head of the FETF.

59
00:05:30,580 --> 00:05:32,260
Might be the BIS, I think.

60
00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:35,780
It's, you know, it's part of the club,

61
00:05:35,980 --> 00:05:38,240
like the BIS, IMF, the OECD, the G20.

62
00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:40,880
It's always coming from somewhere in Europe.

63
00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:43,840
And basically like, so the FETF came up

64
00:05:43,840 --> 00:05:44,940
with this thing called the travel rule

65
00:05:44,940 --> 00:05:47,120
and they basically came up with these guidelines.

66
00:05:47,660 --> 00:05:49,760
And what they essentially told every country in the world

67
00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:52,360
is like, you have to implement KYC AML

68
00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:53,960
on crypto in your country.

69
00:05:54,460 --> 00:05:57,360
Otherwise, you will be considered to be a bad actor

70
00:05:57,360 --> 00:05:59,000
and you're going to get on what's called

71
00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:00,820
the AMF's gray list or black list.

72
00:06:01,420 --> 00:06:04,960
If you are on the FETF's black list or gray list,

73
00:06:05,620 --> 00:06:07,960
then things don't go really well for you.

74
00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:10,240
There's a lot of penalties for a country

75
00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:11,700
not to implement FETF rules.

76
00:06:11,780 --> 00:06:13,000
They're not obliged to,

77
00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:17,800
but they're flagged as a, let's say, non-cooperative state.

78
00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:20,260
So it's not the first time that this has happened.

79
00:06:20,260 --> 00:06:26,380
But the thing about KYC AML, the way that it's been going on like today, it's it's not as bad as people think.

80
00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:34,160
OK, I'll give you an example. Most people think that every time you buy Bitcoin on an exchange, it's like automatically reported to their government.

81
00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:42,540
And that's not true. The point of KYC AML that we have now is basically, OK, if there is something suspicious,

82
00:06:42,540 --> 00:06:48,380
like if one of your clients looks like he's financing terrorism because he's on a sanctions list or something,

83
00:06:48,380 --> 00:06:52,240
or if it looks like he's laundering money,

84
00:06:52,780 --> 00:06:55,560
you report certain types of behavior

85
00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:56,960
that are suspicious.

86
00:06:57,940 --> 00:07:00,320
And you keep the data internally

87
00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:02,020
so that if there is a police investigation

88
00:07:02,020 --> 00:07:03,860
and they come to you with a warrant,

89
00:07:04,300 --> 00:07:05,480
then you have the data on hand.

90
00:07:06,700 --> 00:07:08,980
And that's not something that happens a lot.

91
00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:09,480
You know what I mean?

92
00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:11,360
It's not like a frequent thing.

93
00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:13,200
We don't get the FBI knocking on our door

94
00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:14,140
asking for data.

95
00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:15,680
Something like, I don't know,

96
00:07:15,740 --> 00:07:17,780
bull Bitcoin, we get that once a year or something.

97
00:07:17,780 --> 00:07:24,900
thing. So yeah, KYC is bad, but it's not like we're streaming the data to the government in

98
00:07:24,900 --> 00:07:31,140
real time. The vast majority, like 99% of clients, their data just never leaves full Bitcoin.

99
00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:38,280
What DACA does is a complete shift because now the government requires us to send all of the data,

100
00:07:38,420 --> 00:07:43,760
regardless of whether you're like a pleb or you're a whale, whether you're sketchy or not sketchy,

101
00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:45,700
all of the data gets sent to the government.

102
00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:49,780
And that's a massive problem, of course.

103
00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:51,580
And it's a big shift.

104
00:07:51,740 --> 00:07:52,680
It's a big change.

105
00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:55,180
If you thought that KYC was bad before,

106
00:07:55,340 --> 00:07:56,580
now it's way worse.

107
00:07:57,180 --> 00:08:00,100
And there's multiple reasons why that would be a problem.

108
00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:02,180
Well, first of all, just philosophically speaking,

109
00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:05,180
you can have a problem with the government

110
00:08:05,180 --> 00:08:09,520
just creating a list of people and their assets,

111
00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:10,200
just generally,

112
00:08:10,820 --> 00:08:12,460
because who knows what they're going to do

113
00:08:12,460 --> 00:08:13,140
with that information.

114
00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:35,900
So just philosophically speaking, that's just bad. But where it becomes really bad is in places like France, where we are based, where the cybersecurity of the government is so awful that you have, and I'm not kidding, like something like a million user records that are leaked every single month.

115
00:08:35,900 --> 00:08:41,840
every four or five weeks, you have a top tier institution, whether that's the tax authority

116
00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:48,880
or government agency or a big insurance firm where all of the user records are leaked.

117
00:08:49,340 --> 00:08:55,660
And not only are they leaked, but in France specifically, there has been convicted

118
00:08:55,660 --> 00:09:04,720
civil servants that were selling crypto users information to criminal gangs so that these

119
00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:14,080
gangs could identify victims to kidnap, torture, and extort for crypto ransoms. So this is not a

120
00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:19,680
conspiracy theory. Those people have been caught and convicted recently. So you have government

121
00:09:19,680 --> 00:09:25,380
bureaucrats which are collecting data on crypto users and selling that data to the mafia. And what

122
00:09:25,380 --> 00:09:32,520
is the result? The result is France, where again, we are based. Bull Bitcoin in Europe is the

123
00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:34,280
Crypto Kidnapping Capital of the World.

124
00:09:35,020 --> 00:09:41,160
This year in 2026, we expect about 150 to 180 crypto users to be kidnapped.

125
00:09:42,140 --> 00:09:44,760
Last year was like something like 80 or something like that.

126
00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:48,1000
If you look at just like the Q1 2026 kidnapping data,

127
00:09:49,420 --> 00:09:52,320
it's something like once every two and a half days on average,

128
00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:55,280
a crypto user gets kidnapped.

129
00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:02,360
And I know personally, I want to say maybe four or five people,

130
00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:04,380
who had had either their daughter kidnapped.

131
00:10:05,060 --> 00:10:06,840
There's a famous person that I know

132
00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:07,860
whose daughter got kidnapped.

133
00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:09,360
Their wife got kidnapped.

134
00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:10,720
They got kidnapped.

135
00:10:11,620 --> 00:10:13,480
There's, you know, very famous stories.

136
00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:16,220
So essentially what we as an exchange

137
00:10:16,220 --> 00:10:17,860
have been forced to become

138
00:10:17,860 --> 00:10:23,800
is an agent of the EU's mass surveillance program.

139
00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:30,080
And if this database,

140
00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:36,960
this mega global honeypot database of all crypto users in Europe is leaked,

141
00:10:37,700 --> 00:10:43,100
it will be catastrophic to the extent where I'm very confident

142
00:10:43,100 --> 00:10:45,860
that someone is likely to die as a result.

143
00:10:46,560 --> 00:10:48,580
Someone is definitely going to get kidnapped as a result,

144
00:10:48,680 --> 00:10:50,900
but people will be murdered as a result.

145
00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:58,720
So running an exchange, you have to do some kind of compromise.

146
00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:02,600
when you're a fiat regulated entity for multiple reasons.

147
00:11:03,340 --> 00:11:06,300
You know, bull Bitcoin does have KYC.

148
00:11:06,420 --> 00:11:07,720
We're not a no KYC business.

149
00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:10,040
And the reason why we do this compromise

150
00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:12,780
is because for Bitcoin to succeed in its mission

151
00:11:12,780 --> 00:11:15,760
to eliminate fiat currency,

152
00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:19,480
you need Bitcoin to be a highly sellable

153
00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:20,940
and highly liquid asset.

154
00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:23,560
You need Bitcoin to be used for commodities trading,

155
00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:27,180
by merchants, for payroll, for remittance.

156
00:11:27,180 --> 00:11:33,420
You need millions and millions of Bitcoin holders to use Bitcoin on a day to day basis.

157
00:11:33,680 --> 00:11:37,840
And in order for that to happen, you need brokers, you need trading order book platforms.

158
00:11:38,260 --> 00:11:46,800
You can't achieve like a global revolution on just like a purely peer to peer exchange basis and like meet someone in a parking lot with a bunch of cash.

159
00:11:46,860 --> 00:11:52,320
Like you need exchanges to achieve this level of liquidity and sellability and market penetration.

160
00:11:52,320 --> 00:12:02,360
so we've done you know compromises by implementing kyc but we believe that uh this new regime the

161
00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:09,980
decade regime is a line that we cannot cross there's a certain there's a certain level at

162
00:12:09,980 --> 00:12:19,400
which we have to say no we have to uh make a stand and we have to refuse to see any more territory if

163
00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:27,660
we don't refuse this global database of bitcorners um then the message that we're sending to these

164
00:12:27,660 --> 00:12:33,640
globalists is is very clear uh is that they can do anything right like what's what's worse than

165
00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:38,260
collecting what's worse than put it up than putting all the corners on a list and having all

166
00:12:38,260 --> 00:12:45,400
of their wealth like in a centralized database which is accessible by 27 bureaucracies across

167
00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:49,060
European Union. I mean, it's pretty much as bad as it can get in terms of privacy.

168
00:12:50,260 --> 00:12:52,200
So we've decided to fight back.

169
00:12:55,460 --> 00:13:06,828
The I mean not only is it incredibly invasive to privacy but by sharing it with 27 other agencies I mean you just expanding the attack surface dramatically

170
00:13:07,068 --> 00:13:15,128
And especially in the world that we're living in now with AI emerging and being able to attack critical systems rather trivially.

171
00:13:15,388 --> 00:13:23,548
It seems like we should be going in the opposite direction, try to collect the least amount of data as possible to protect end users and individuals and their lives.

172
00:13:23,548 --> 00:13:26,388
and the lives of our loved ones at the end of the day.

173
00:13:26,628 --> 00:13:31,148
And I think this has obviously been a massive topic on this podcast

174
00:13:31,148 --> 00:13:34,828
for the last nine years, which is the encroachment of KYC AML.

175
00:13:34,908 --> 00:13:39,268
And I'm very happy that you and your team are drawing the line

176
00:13:39,268 --> 00:13:41,868
and saying, no, we're not ceding any more ground.

177
00:13:43,048 --> 00:13:44,748
What does that look like?

178
00:13:44,828 --> 00:13:46,788
How big is this fight going to get, do you think?

179
00:13:47,788 --> 00:13:53,288
I think this is going to be possibly one of the biggest tax law cases

180
00:13:53,288 --> 00:13:55,728
in Europe. So what we're doing is

181
00:13:55,728 --> 00:13:57,668
we are challenging

182
00:13:57,668 --> 00:13:59,808
the implementation of

183
00:13:59,808 --> 00:14:01,888
DAC8 in France at the French government.

184
00:14:02,008 --> 00:14:03,108
So we actually did this,

185
00:14:03,688 --> 00:14:05,668
we started doing this in February

186
00:14:05,668 --> 00:14:08,048
where we first did our legal challenge.

187
00:14:08,748 --> 00:14:09,948
We decided not to

188
00:14:09,948 --> 00:14:11,008
talk about it until

189
00:14:11,008 --> 00:14:13,628
recently because

190
00:14:13,628 --> 00:14:15,868
we were in the process of applying for

191
00:14:15,868 --> 00:14:17,768
a MECA license in Europe and

192
00:14:17,768 --> 00:14:18,748
we didn't want to

193
00:14:18,748 --> 00:14:22,368
attract too much

194
00:14:22,368 --> 00:14:26,088
I guess, anger from the French state.

195
00:14:26,308 --> 00:14:29,668
So as soon as we got our Mika license, we started to talk about it.

196
00:14:29,668 --> 00:14:35,528
So we're challenging the national implementation of DAC-8 in France under three principles.

197
00:14:35,728 --> 00:14:38,088
One of them is proportionality.

198
00:14:38,548 --> 00:14:45,928
So basically, the concept of creating this pan-European global database of crypto users

199
00:14:45,928 --> 00:14:51,448
is completely disproportional to the objective of the French government to evade tax evasions.

200
00:14:51,448 --> 00:14:55,248
In other words, they already have the tools in place to do all their investigations.

201
00:14:55,408 --> 00:14:56,828
They don't need this new set of tools.

202
00:14:56,948 --> 00:14:57,648
It's not necessary.

203
00:14:58,588 --> 00:15:03,248
There's also violations of the EU Charter of Human Rights.

204
00:15:03,608 --> 00:15:04,208
I hope I'm not.

205
00:15:05,248 --> 00:15:08,868
My lawyer might be a little pissed at me because I need to be careful about exactly what we're doing.

206
00:15:09,028 --> 00:15:12,088
But we're kind of like breaching the EU Constitution.

207
00:15:12,708 --> 00:15:14,948
And there's a bunch of technical things also that the government did wrong.

208
00:15:14,948 --> 00:15:21,008
So our objective is to repeal the implementation of DAC-8 in France.

209
00:15:21,448 --> 00:15:29,888
which would in effect allow, prevent or exempt bull Bitcoin from complying with this regulation.

210
00:15:30,828 --> 00:15:36,188
At the same time, we also have a, let's call it multi-angle legal strategy.

211
00:15:36,768 --> 00:15:42,808
So we have two more legal recourse that we're preparing that I can't really talk about,

212
00:15:42,948 --> 00:15:49,008
but one of them is about temporarily suspending compliance with this at the same time.

213
00:15:49,008 --> 00:15:58,988
And if we lose at the French court level, we're going to take this to the European Court of Justice, which is kind of like the higher judicial authority in Europe.

214
00:15:59,608 --> 00:16:04,128
And there are precedents. And this is not like a frivolous lawsuit that we're doing for marketing.

215
00:16:04,268 --> 00:16:09,148
Like we have very good chances of winning this because there's like a lot of legal precedents around this.

216
00:16:09,408 --> 00:16:12,208
So if we lose, then we're going to take this to the European Court of Justice.

217
00:16:12,208 --> 00:16:17,748
and DAC-8 is a purely European thing

218
00:16:17,748 --> 00:16:19,508
but I also want to remind the viewers

219
00:16:19,508 --> 00:16:22,168
that this is actually coming to the United States as well

220
00:16:22,168 --> 00:16:23,588
in 2029

221
00:16:23,588 --> 00:16:25,728
I think 2028 or 2029

222
00:16:25,728 --> 00:16:26,948
CARF is coming to the US

223
00:16:26,948 --> 00:16:30,328
CARF is also coming to Canada this year

224
00:16:30,328 --> 00:16:34,508
and pretty much every major developed nation

225
00:16:34,508 --> 00:16:36,588
are going to have their own version of DAC-8

226
00:16:36,588 --> 00:16:38,548
so we're starting with France

227
00:16:38,548 --> 00:16:41,308
as the first opening salvo of this battle

228
00:16:41,308 --> 00:16:44,748
but soon after

229
00:16:44,748 --> 00:16:46,828
we're probably going to be looking at

230
00:16:46,828 --> 00:16:48,948
challenging this

231
00:16:48,948 --> 00:16:50,348
constitutionally in Canada

232
00:16:50,348 --> 00:16:53,048
and hopefully someone in the US

233
00:16:53,048 --> 00:16:55,328
also does a constitutional challenge

234
00:16:55,328 --> 00:16:57,488
in the US although as far as I know

235
00:16:57,488 --> 00:16:59,348
Bull is the only company in the world

236
00:16:59,348 --> 00:17:00,208
it's the only

237
00:17:00,208 --> 00:17:02,988
legal challenge of CARF

238
00:17:02,988 --> 00:17:05,428
anywhere on earth as far as I'm aware of

239
00:17:05,428 --> 00:17:07,368
so our goal

240
00:17:07,368 --> 00:17:09,328
is to, I mean a legal precedent

241
00:17:09,328 --> 00:17:17,208
in Europe doesn't create a legal precedent in the US or in Canada, but ideally, uh, we can motivate

242
00:17:17,208 --> 00:17:22,508
people in their own countries to pursue legal action because politically there's nothing to do.

243
00:17:22,508 --> 00:17:28,628
Like nobody gives a fuck, right? There's no, there's no congressman or there's no parliamentarian

244
00:17:28,628 --> 00:17:35,608
that really and truly, uh, does anything about, you know, even in the US you have like a pro,

245
00:17:35,608 --> 00:17:37,888
a pro-crypto government or something like that.

246
00:17:37,968 --> 00:17:38,808
But even in the US,

247
00:17:38,908 --> 00:17:40,648
there hasn't been a challenge of this concept at all.

248
00:17:41,308 --> 00:17:45,588
So ideally, we motivate people to use the justice system,

249
00:17:45,688 --> 00:17:48,788
the courts, as a method of defending crypto users.

250
00:17:48,928 --> 00:17:51,008
Because, yeah, sure, we can use all sorts of technology.

251
00:17:51,228 --> 00:17:53,508
We can use pay join, coin join, silent payments,

252
00:17:53,508 --> 00:17:55,088
liquid swaps, all that kind of stuff.

253
00:17:55,568 --> 00:17:57,288
We cypherpunks can build the tools,

254
00:17:57,848 --> 00:18:00,268
but it doesn't stop every leakage.

255
00:18:00,428 --> 00:18:03,928
We need to also do this battle on the legal front as well.

256
00:18:03,928 --> 00:18:10,688
yeah i completely agree and i mean timing is of the essence particularly for DAC8

257
00:18:10,688 --> 00:18:17,308
in france it looks like from my research they wanted you to start tracking beginning on january

258
00:18:17,308 --> 00:18:25,008
1st of this year and like the first mandatory report will be january 31st 2027 so we have about

259
00:18:25,008 --> 00:18:31,728
six seven months here before exchanges are expected to hand over this data yeah and even

260
00:18:31,728 --> 00:18:39,528
Even if we lose the constitutional, the core challenge that we're doing now, we have a pretty good strategy of having a bunch of backup plans.

261
00:18:39,528 --> 00:18:47,888
So our goal is to using any and all legal means at our disposal to repeal.

262
00:18:48,848 --> 00:18:50,388
Repealing is the number one goal.

263
00:18:51,548 --> 00:19:00,748
Delaying is the second goal and mitigating, you know, like the plan C is basically negotiating to have something that is less harmful.

264
00:19:00,748 --> 00:19:04,228
but completely repealing is our objective.

265
00:19:04,448 --> 00:19:05,568
And I think we have pretty good chances.

266
00:19:06,808 --> 00:19:06,908
Yeah.

267
00:19:07,568 --> 00:19:10,168
I mean, I think we should dive into the philosophy

268
00:19:10,168 --> 00:19:15,088
of this deeper because I think it's gotten

269
00:19:15,088 --> 00:19:18,348
to an insane point globally

270
00:19:18,348 --> 00:19:23,208
where exchanges, individuals have just been expected

271
00:19:23,208 --> 00:19:25,468
to just completely hand over the data.

272
00:19:25,588 --> 00:19:26,948
The government says, hey, new guideline.

273
00:19:26,948 --> 00:19:28,388
And the thing about FATF too,

274
00:19:28,388 --> 00:19:36,288
It's like a supranational, unelected, bureaucratic institution that sits under the BIS or IMF.

275
00:19:36,408 --> 00:19:38,048
It doesn't matter who it really sits under.

276
00:19:38,288 --> 00:19:41,668
But they're technically not implementing laws.

277
00:19:41,768 --> 00:19:42,368
They get together.

278
00:19:42,548 --> 00:19:43,528
The globalists get together.

279
00:19:43,648 --> 00:19:45,548
They say, hey, here are the guidelines.

280
00:19:45,768 --> 00:19:51,848
And like you said earlier, if a country doesn't adopt the guidelines, Financial Action Task Force comes in and says you're on the blacklist.

281
00:19:51,848 --> 00:20:07,948
And there's just some weird leveraged incentives at play where you have this unelected, supranational, bureaucratic institution that nobody asked for that is dictating basically what we can hold private in our lives in the digital age.

282
00:20:07,948 --> 00:20:09,928
It's completely insane.

283
00:20:10,148 --> 00:20:34,588
And I think France is a good example, but we have plenty of examples across the world of turning exchanges into data honeypots and now extending that further into government agencies, which are notoriously incompetent, turning them into even larger data honeypots and sharing that data amongst each other, which is even more frightening.

284
00:20:34,588 --> 00:20:41,668
and it just gets to the core of like what it means to be human like why why do we need to do all this

285
00:20:41,668 --> 00:20:49,108
and they opine that it's to protect protect you from uh terrorists and child abusers and things

286
00:20:49,108 --> 00:20:56,528
like that and they try to mark you as uh an insensitive uh rube if if you don't go along

287
00:20:56,528 --> 00:21:01,688
with it because you're why why don't you want to do this you support terrorism you support

288
00:21:01,688 --> 00:21:07,428
the trafficking of children? It's like, no, of course not. But there's a better way to do these

289
00:21:07,428 --> 00:21:15,148
things, which is actual law enforcement. I think the proof is in the pudding of 50 years of this

290
00:21:15,148 --> 00:21:21,588
KYC AML regime, which really stems from the Bank Secrecy Act here in the United States,

291
00:21:21,588 --> 00:21:28,148
that these data collection mandates are completely ineffective at stopping crime. And in fact,

292
00:21:28,148 --> 00:21:31,368
to your point earlier, actually put more people in harm's way.

293
00:21:32,988 --> 00:21:37,428
100%. You said many great things I'm going to touch on. The first thing that you mentioned is

294
00:21:37,428 --> 00:21:43,708
it's a little reminiscent of COVID, isn't it? COVID, there was this thing called the WHO,

295
00:21:43,708 --> 00:21:51,628
the World Health Organization, and they can't force countries to do anything. But then you have

296
00:21:51,628 --> 00:21:57,768
all the bureaucrats of every country, which basically get a software update from the WHO.

297
00:21:58,148 --> 00:22:17,168
You know what I mean? They get like a mind download from the WHO and then they cook up some kind of call it emergency or public safety concern where the national elected governments don't actually make rules.

298
00:22:17,168 --> 00:22:25,668
Right. So in covid, it was basically like I don't know who he was in the US, but like the national public health agencies and they start issuing these edicts.

299
00:22:25,668 --> 00:22:33,648
And the technocracy, the bureaucrats, ended up extending the state's power for something that nobody really voted for.

300
00:22:33,648 --> 00:22:37,028
Like nobody voted for COVID lockdowns or for vaccine mandates.

301
00:22:38,288 --> 00:22:45,688
They were arguably popular in some places, but it's certainly not something that came from a representative government.

302
00:22:45,908 --> 00:22:52,748
It came from the bureaucracy, and the international bureaucracy coordinated itself around stuff like the WHO.

303
00:22:52,748 --> 00:22:57,068
show and this is exactly what we see in the national legislature you know there's no protest

304
00:22:57,068 --> 00:23:01,668
on the street from people that want stricter kyc aml regime that exchanges you know that just

305
00:23:01,668 --> 00:23:06,248
it's not something on people's minds at all it's something that's kind of like it's a slow creep

306
00:23:06,248 --> 00:23:12,628
you know you know i mean it's it's like it slowly creeps in through the bureaucracy and um nobody

307
00:23:12,628 --> 00:23:19,908
really knows what's going on until until it's too late um carf and decade itself is presented as a

308
00:23:19,908 --> 00:23:27,328
purely technical thing. When you look at national debates, there's no national debate at, there's no

309
00:23:27,328 --> 00:23:32,528
like congressional debate about CARF. You will not find a congressional debate where you have like

310
00:23:32,528 --> 00:23:36,508
the Democrats and Republicans arguing back and forth about the merits of CARF. No, no, no. It's,

311
00:23:36,508 --> 00:23:41,788
it's, it's like a, it's like a technical change to, you know, the IRS rules. And it's like a

312
00:23:41,788 --> 00:23:46,648
technical change to the French in France. It's just a technical amendment basically. So it kind

313
00:23:46,648 --> 00:23:52,828
of like, um, sneaks under the radar. And then that shit just keeps adding up. It just keeps

314
00:23:52,828 --> 00:23:59,188
adding up over and over and over. Um, and of course you have, you know, you had the public

315
00:23:59,188 --> 00:24:04,148
health stuff, you have the crypto stuff. Of course, at the same time, we also have regulation of

316
00:24:04,148 --> 00:24:10,768
social media under the new public health scare, which is hate speech. Um, and all of that is,

317
00:24:10,768 --> 00:24:16,368
is, is coming in, um, at the same time. And these institutions have a lot of leverage

318
00:24:16,368 --> 00:24:20,088
against crypto businesses and businesses in general.

319
00:24:20,568 --> 00:24:22,448
Because if you're a media,

320
00:24:22,588 --> 00:24:24,448
you need to have a broadcasting license

321
00:24:24,448 --> 00:24:25,188
or something like that.

322
00:24:25,248 --> 00:24:26,008
If you're a crypto exchange,

323
00:24:26,068 --> 00:24:26,848
you need to have a crypto license.

324
00:24:27,068 --> 00:24:28,268
So basically they use the threat

325
00:24:28,268 --> 00:24:30,688
of removing your ability to operate

326
00:24:30,688 --> 00:24:32,108
in a certain country if you don't comply.

327
00:24:33,228 --> 00:24:34,788
So it's kind of like, again,

328
00:24:34,848 --> 00:24:36,088
it's kind of like with the vaccine mandate.

329
00:24:36,228 --> 00:24:36,988
It's kind of like, oh, well,

330
00:24:37,088 --> 00:24:39,008
you don't have to get a COVID vaccine,

331
00:24:39,508 --> 00:24:41,408
but you can't go to the store.

332
00:24:41,988 --> 00:24:43,048
For us, it's basically like,

333
00:24:43,108 --> 00:24:44,208
oh, well, you don't have to do that,

334
00:24:44,208 --> 00:24:46,908
but we don't have to give you a license either.

335
00:24:50,228 --> 00:24:54,208
Let's just say I can see the pressure accelerating.

336
00:24:55,108 --> 00:25:00,068
I can see the soft tyranny

337
00:25:00,068 --> 00:25:04,088
because it's not tyranny in the sense of

338
00:25:04,088 --> 00:25:08,088
a Marxist government lighting you up against the wall

339
00:25:08,088 --> 00:25:10,648
to shoot you and take your stuff. It's a bureaucratic tyranny.

340
00:25:11,508 --> 00:25:14,048
The best way to conceive of this is actually

341
00:25:14,048 --> 00:25:16,048
with Alexandre de Tocqueville,

342
00:25:16,448 --> 00:25:17,848
which is a French author,

343
00:25:17,968 --> 00:25:21,388
but wrote about the American system of government.

344
00:25:22,108 --> 00:25:26,928
And he has this very nice passage,

345
00:25:27,188 --> 00:25:28,728
this book called Democracy in America,

346
00:25:28,728 --> 00:25:31,628
where he specifically talks about this.

347
00:25:31,688 --> 00:25:32,148
And he says,

348
00:25:32,608 --> 00:25:34,408
tyranny is not going to look like

349
00:25:34,408 --> 00:25:35,368
you think it's going to look like.

350
00:25:35,468 --> 00:25:37,608
It's not going to be this military government,

351
00:25:37,768 --> 00:25:39,368
which is coming into your house

352
00:25:39,368 --> 00:25:42,048
and kicking down your door and chaining you up.

353
00:25:42,048 --> 00:25:49,208
it's going to be a ever-growing set of small rules which turn you into basically a docile sheep

354
00:25:49,208 --> 00:25:56,428
and then when you're in the exchange business like i am and you're very regulated i can i can

355
00:25:56,428 --> 00:26:10,796
see those as adding up so at some point at some point you just got to say no right at some point we just got to say no And you got to establish in your mind a line that you will not cross And that specific one is the one that we just decided like no we not crossing this one

356
00:26:11,316 --> 00:26:11,756
What's up, Freaks?

357
00:26:11,816 --> 00:26:13,356
This work was brought to you by our good friends at BitKey.

358
00:26:13,556 --> 00:26:14,296
Guys, things happen.

359
00:26:14,396 --> 00:26:15,056
Things get lost.

360
00:26:15,536 --> 00:26:16,536
You need to replace your phone.

361
00:26:16,796 --> 00:26:17,496
Life happens.

362
00:26:18,016 --> 00:26:20,856
And BitKey has been designed with this in mind.

363
00:26:21,196 --> 00:26:26,636
So if you're looking for the easiest way to secure your Bitcoin off the exchange, go get a BitKey.

364
00:26:26,636 --> 00:26:27,956
It doesn't come with any seed phrases.

365
00:26:28,316 --> 00:26:29,536
There's no single point of failure.

366
00:26:29,676 --> 00:26:30,576
It's a two or three multi-sig.

367
00:26:30,656 --> 00:26:31,396
You have your device.

368
00:26:31,896 --> 00:26:33,896
You have the mobile app and block stores.

369
00:26:34,396 --> 00:26:37,176
A key in the server, so you have collaborative multi-sig there.

370
00:26:37,536 --> 00:26:40,936
On top of that, the new BitKey has a screen, so you can actually see and verify what you're

371
00:26:40,936 --> 00:26:41,316
approving.

372
00:26:41,756 --> 00:26:44,136
You can look at transactions, addresses, account changes.

373
00:26:44,656 --> 00:26:49,076
The difference between trusting and knowing has been built into the new BitKey with the

374
00:26:49,076 --> 00:26:49,416
screen.

375
00:26:49,796 --> 00:26:54,976
They've changed code delegation and other advanced features like inheritance, recovery.

376
00:26:54,976 --> 00:26:59,796
If you're looking to get your Bitcoin off exchange, you haven't done so, you're looking for the easiest way to do that.

377
00:26:59,856 --> 00:27:00,496
Go get a BitKey.

378
00:27:00,976 --> 00:27:05,116
You can use our code today, TFTC, to get 10% off the new BitKey.

379
00:27:05,216 --> 00:27:11,276
So go download the BitKey app, use the code TFTC to get 10% off the new BitKey, and start your self-custody journey today.

380
00:27:11,516 --> 00:27:13,976
This episode has been sponsored by our good friends at BitKey.

381
00:27:14,296 --> 00:27:16,356
So freaks, this work was brought to you by our good friends at BitKey.

382
00:27:16,536 --> 00:27:18,036
Guys, things happen, things get lost.

383
00:27:18,516 --> 00:27:23,836
You need to replace your phone, life happens, and BitKey has been designed with this in mind.

384
00:27:23,836 --> 00:27:52,396
So if you're looking for the easiest way to secure your Bitcoin off the exchange, go get a BitKey. It doesn't come with any seed phrases. There's no single point of failure. It's a two or three multi-sig. You have your device. You have the mobile app and block stores a key in the server. So you have collaborative multi-sig there. On top of that, the new BitKey has a screen so you can actually see and verify what you're approving. You can look at transactions, addresses, account changes. The difference between trusting and knowing has been built into the new BitKey with the screen.

385
00:27:52,396 --> 00:27:57,976
They've changed code delegation and other advanced features like inheritance, recovery.

386
00:27:58,436 --> 00:28:01,116
If you're looking to get your Bitcoin off exchange, you haven't done so.

387
00:28:01,456 --> 00:28:02,776
You're looking for the easiest way to do that.

388
00:28:02,836 --> 00:28:03,476
Go get a BitKey.

389
00:28:03,996 --> 00:28:08,096
You can use our code today, TFTC, to get 10% off the new BitKey.

390
00:28:08,216 --> 00:28:09,336
So go download the BitKey app.

391
00:28:09,796 --> 00:28:14,256
Use the code TFTC to get 10% off the new BitKey and start your self-custody journey today.

392
00:28:14,516 --> 00:28:16,956
This episode has been sponsored by our good friends at BitKey.

393
00:28:16,956 --> 00:28:27,296
I mean, and even here in the States, all the conversations around the Clarity Act and whether it will or will not get passed, I think odds are above 50% now that it will.

394
00:28:27,456 --> 00:28:28,476
And everybody's cheering it on.

395
00:28:28,556 --> 00:28:37,076
I think like the Coinbases and the stablecoin issuers of the world and those who want to issue tokens, real world asset tokens are cheerleading it.

396
00:28:37,076 --> 00:28:42,436
But if you read the bill, it extends the Patriot Act.

397
00:28:42,436 --> 00:28:53,676
And some of the words, some of the wording is such that you could squint and see how they would try to say like, OK, open source wallet developers, you need to have some KYC, AML compliance.

398
00:28:53,676 --> 00:29:00,736
Like when somebody downloads your software, we need to know who's downloading a blue wallet or a bull wallet, whatever it may be.

399
00:29:02,576 --> 00:29:04,236
And everybody's cheering it on.

400
00:29:04,236 --> 00:29:24,276
And it's, I think, from the crypto industry outside of Bitcoin, it's mainly driven by greed, the one to be able to go out and basically stand up their casinos without having to worry about the government coming in and slamming the book at them for securities law.

401
00:29:24,276 --> 00:29:29,956
But they're sneaking all these KYC AML provisions into the act.

402
00:29:30,056 --> 00:29:34,716
And then on top of that, it expands the Patriot Act, which I wholeheartedly believe should be repealed.

403
00:29:35,616 --> 00:29:50,496
And it's another example of what you just described, the slow creep of new rules and regulations where it's like, hey, I just want to be able to go about my life, make money, save it in the currency that I deem to be suitable for me and my family.

404
00:29:50,856 --> 00:29:52,656
And that's all I want to do.

405
00:29:52,656 --> 00:29:53,856
It's none of your business.

406
00:29:53,856 --> 00:30:00,436
I should be able to make money, save it, and secure it without the government being in my business.

407
00:30:00,856 --> 00:30:07,016
And I'm very happy that you are standing up and beginning to beat the drum.

408
00:30:07,176 --> 00:30:09,836
Like, no, we need to draw a line in the sand as an industry here.

409
00:30:09,896 --> 00:30:15,136
Because I think, particularly from the American perspective, there's not enough people doing that.

410
00:30:15,136 --> 00:30:21,756
In fact, they're cheerleading the shackles to be approved by the government right now.

411
00:30:21,756 --> 00:30:33,616
I'm not an expert in the Clarity Act, but of course, like every person, I follow American politics because the Canadian politics don't matter at all.

412
00:30:33,796 --> 00:30:37,556
You know, the only politics that really matter is the U.S. and maybe the EU.

413
00:30:37,556 --> 00:30:49,356
But I haven't seen anything coming from the U.S. that actually makes it easier or better or less restrictive for me or my users.

414
00:30:49,356 --> 00:30:52,516
Like imagine that bull Bitcoin was to go to the United States, like launch to the US.

415
00:30:52,696 --> 00:30:59,156
I haven't seen anything in the Clarity Act that makes my life as a business easier or that makes my users safer.

416
00:31:00,016 --> 00:31:06,636
And I think Bitcoin has reached a certain place where you can't just ban Bitcoin, right?

417
00:31:06,716 --> 00:31:11,276
You can't just attack Bitcoin head on because there's just too much money involved.

418
00:31:11,556 --> 00:31:17,256
There's just too many important and influential people that have exposure to the Bitcoin price.

419
00:31:17,256 --> 00:31:20,756
not that are self-custodied and that are cypherpunks,

420
00:31:20,836 --> 00:31:22,216
but that have exposure to the Bitcoin price.

421
00:31:22,576 --> 00:31:24,256
So you can't just say something like,

422
00:31:24,396 --> 00:31:25,696
oh, the miners, we're going to shut you off

423
00:31:25,696 --> 00:31:28,376
or owning Bitcoin is illegal or anything like that.

424
00:31:28,376 --> 00:31:32,256
So you have to allow and facilitate

425
00:31:32,256 --> 00:31:36,336
institutional adoption of Bitcoin and stable coins

426
00:31:36,336 --> 00:31:39,556
with stuff like the Genius Act and the Clarity Act.

427
00:31:40,156 --> 00:31:43,796
But that doesn't mean that you have to make it easier

428
00:31:43,796 --> 00:31:45,296
to self-custody and make privacy.

429
00:31:47,256 --> 00:31:54,596
legal again. So what I'm concerned is that the pro-Bitcoin or pro-crypto political narrative

430
00:31:54,596 --> 00:31:59,836
is focused more exclusively on stuff that you mentioned, like securities violations and

431
00:31:59,836 --> 00:32:05,216
banks being able to do some accounting tricks with Bitcoin that they couldn't do before,

432
00:32:05,456 --> 00:32:11,116
or people being able to issue stablecoins in the United States as long as they buy the treasury

433
00:32:11,116 --> 00:32:15,856
bonds with the fiat. I see the stablecoin as being kind of like the new petrodollar.

434
00:32:15,856 --> 00:32:19,536
you can issue your stable coins

435
00:32:19,536 --> 00:32:21,856
as long as you're buying

436
00:32:21,856 --> 00:32:24,156
our treasury bonds with it, you're fine.

437
00:32:25,016 --> 00:32:27,136
But if you issue stable coins

438
00:32:27,136 --> 00:32:29,676
outside of the US in a non-US bank

439
00:32:29,676 --> 00:32:32,756
and you don't store in treasuries, you're fucked.

440
00:32:33,676 --> 00:32:35,236
Kind of like they did with the petrodollar.

441
00:32:35,236 --> 00:32:37,316
You guys can

442
00:32:37,316 --> 00:32:40,116
dig for oil in your

443
00:32:40,116 --> 00:32:43,356
Middle Eastern country as long as you sell it for US dollars.

444
00:32:43,356 --> 00:32:46,796
So it is definitely a concern

445
00:32:46,796 --> 00:32:50,116
And there's really never been

446
00:32:50,116 --> 00:32:52,576
Kind of like a cypherpunk political party

447
00:32:52,576 --> 00:32:53,496
Or political movement

448
00:32:53,496 --> 00:32:56,976
So it has to happen at the court level

449
00:32:56,976 --> 00:32:57,636
I believe

450
00:32:57,636 --> 00:33:04,196
Even if it's easy to blackbill

451
00:33:04,196 --> 00:33:05,776
For example, even with COVID

452
00:33:05,776 --> 00:33:08,596
A lot of constitutional courts

453
00:33:08,596 --> 00:33:11,916
Validated the vaccine mandates, for example

454
00:33:11,916 --> 00:33:17,636
So you say, OK, well, the Supreme Court will save us if it's really bad.

455
00:33:17,776 --> 00:33:21,956
It's not always true, but it is a lever that we have.

456
00:33:22,016 --> 00:33:23,556
It's the only lever that we have, basically.

457
00:33:24,436 --> 00:33:28,076
Either we go fully unregulated, which is an option.

458
00:33:29,296 --> 00:33:32,396
Some crypto companies, some Bitcoin companies might say, you know what, fuck you.

459
00:33:33,096 --> 00:33:35,876
I'm not complying and I'm going to go fully unregulated.

460
00:33:37,716 --> 00:33:40,436
But then that is a noble move.

461
00:33:40,436 --> 00:33:50,516
It definitely is a noble move, but you have to assess, okay, well, if I do that, what impact am I going to actually have if I'm basically on the run?

462
00:33:50,716 --> 00:33:57,476
For example, you're not good to anyone if you're in jail and your service is shut down.

463
00:33:57,836 --> 00:33:58,776
That's the thing.

464
00:33:58,776 --> 00:34:11,816
And you're also not good to anyone if your service is so cypherpunk, you know, like BISC, for example, like decentralized peer-to-peer marketplace.

465
00:34:12,176 --> 00:34:13,116
I mean, it's fucking sweet.

466
00:34:13,476 --> 00:34:14,716
I mean, it's fully unregulated.

467
00:34:14,856 --> 00:34:15,656
It's fully decentralized.

468
00:34:16,816 --> 00:34:19,216
But you're not going to achieve that.

469
00:34:19,256 --> 00:34:21,756
There's like a critical mass of Bitcoiners that we need.

470
00:34:21,816 --> 00:34:23,076
And like, we don't need mass adoption.

471
00:34:23,076 --> 00:34:29,616
By the way, we don't need all the normies to get into Bitcoin to have a socioeconomic and sociopolitical change.

472
00:34:30,016 --> 00:34:31,796
We do need a certain critical mass of people.

473
00:34:32,016 --> 00:34:33,876
I like to think it's like 3%.

474
00:34:33,876 --> 00:34:36,076
I think 3% is the number.

475
00:34:36,196 --> 00:34:36,876
Why 3%?

476
00:34:37,456 --> 00:34:46,216
It's because of the meme with the American Revolution where you only had 3% of the population in the U.S. that were actively involved in the U.S. uprising against the British.

477
00:34:46,336 --> 00:34:47,436
I don't know if this is true or not.

478
00:34:47,716 --> 00:34:48,196
It's just a meme.

479
00:34:48,196 --> 00:34:59,876
But anyway, I think you need like 3% of the population to become sovereign individuals and like fully opt out, like withdraw their consent from monetary debasement and withdraw their consent from the fiat system.

480
00:35:00,136 --> 00:35:02,816
But 3% of the population is still a fucking lot of people.

481
00:35:03,276 --> 00:35:08,296
It's like, my math is probably wrong, but I think it's like 300 million people or something worldwide.

482
00:35:08,496 --> 00:35:09,676
Yeah, it's like a quarter of a billion.

483
00:35:10,036 --> 00:35:10,176
Yeah.

484
00:35:10,316 --> 00:35:11,056
Right. Yeah, exactly.

485
00:35:11,056 --> 00:35:13,916
So you do need a critical mass of people.

486
00:35:14,876 --> 00:35:22,256
And in order to reach that critical mass of people, you have to remain inside the Overton

487
00:35:22,256 --> 00:35:24,936
window, so to speak, at least something.

488
00:35:25,376 --> 00:35:31,056
And basically, I think the best that we can do as a regulated exchange is be within the

489
00:35:31,656 --> 00:35:38,136
Overton window where we can operate legally, but be so far at the extreme of the Overton

490
00:35:38,136 --> 00:35:40,316
window that we can slightly nudge it and push it.

491
00:35:40,316 --> 00:35:42,176
with these kinds of things.

492
00:35:43,056 --> 00:35:44,996
There's all sorts of things that,

493
00:35:45,336 --> 00:35:45,996
you know, in Canada,

494
00:35:46,076 --> 00:35:47,676
we've been very highly successful at that,

495
00:35:47,716 --> 00:35:48,156
by the way.

496
00:35:49,156 --> 00:35:51,556
Not necessarily publicized

497
00:35:51,556 --> 00:35:53,016
because we don't want to publicize

498
00:35:53,016 --> 00:35:54,156
every victory that we have

499
00:35:54,156 --> 00:35:56,116
against the states in terms of privacy

500
00:35:56,116 --> 00:35:57,836
because also we don't want to,

501
00:35:57,836 --> 00:35:59,456
you know, rub it in their face.

502
00:35:59,556 --> 00:36:01,356
But there's been multiple instances

503
00:36:01,356 --> 00:36:02,376
where the government was like,

504
00:36:02,456 --> 00:36:03,216
give me all this data.

505
00:36:03,376 --> 00:36:04,176
And we're just like, no.

506
00:36:05,256 --> 00:36:05,916
What do you mean?

507
00:36:06,496 --> 00:36:07,336
This is the privacy.

508
00:36:07,476 --> 00:36:08,716
We have the Privacy Act in Canada.

509
00:36:08,816 --> 00:36:09,776
We have a very strong privacy.

510
00:36:09,776 --> 00:36:14,176
like this is a privacy act like you're not allowed to ask me for this data and then uh then they just

511
00:36:14,176 --> 00:36:19,376
kind of like back off um so people would be surprised how efficient uh it can be just to

512
00:36:19,376 --> 00:36:25,056
just say no to a government and see what happens um it's kind of like again like you know you walk

513
00:36:25,056 --> 00:36:29,876
into a restaurant with you know the covid mandate you know what happens if you just say no no i'm

514
00:36:29,876 --> 00:36:34,976
not wearing a fucking mask i'm just gonna go sit down many times it just works you know people

515
00:36:34,976 --> 00:36:39,396
don't actually bother you they just expect you to comply um so that's kind of like the philosophy

516
00:36:39,396 --> 00:36:40,796
that we've tried to build.

517
00:36:41,036 --> 00:36:45,256
And it's a little bit of a business risk

518
00:36:45,256 --> 00:36:46,136
for us to do that.

519
00:36:46,236 --> 00:36:47,016
But at the same time,

520
00:36:47,076 --> 00:36:48,936
I mean, everything we're doing is legal and lawful

521
00:36:48,936 --> 00:36:49,796
and it's legitimate.

522
00:36:50,756 --> 00:36:52,236
And it's kind of like,

523
00:36:52,736 --> 00:36:55,336
in the US, you guys know about that.

524
00:36:55,476 --> 00:36:56,616
Like if you don't exercise your rights,

525
00:36:56,636 --> 00:36:57,056
you lose them.

526
00:36:58,396 --> 00:37:00,536
I mean, that's why Americans are so,

527
00:37:01,036 --> 00:37:02,136
I mean, I'm not American, I don't know,

528
00:37:02,216 --> 00:37:03,816
but I mean, I have a lot of American friends

529
00:37:03,816 --> 00:37:05,676
and a lot of Americans that I know

530
00:37:05,676 --> 00:37:08,696
are so adamant about exercising the Second Amendment

531
00:37:08,696 --> 00:37:13,916
just very visibly in public

532
00:37:13,916 --> 00:37:17,276
because they know that if you don't exercise it,

533
00:37:17,316 --> 00:37:18,076
it just goes away.

534
00:37:18,436 --> 00:37:19,456
The same thing with free speech.

535
00:37:19,516 --> 00:37:21,276
If you don't exercise it, then it just goes away.

536
00:37:21,276 --> 00:37:24,156
And if you start to comply a tiny bit at a time,

537
00:37:24,376 --> 00:37:27,256
eventually your rights are gone.

538
00:37:28,376 --> 00:37:28,476
Yeah.

539
00:37:29,896 --> 00:37:30,536
That's funny.

540
00:37:31,536 --> 00:37:34,656
I'm having flashbacks to an instance where I did this.

541
00:37:34,776 --> 00:37:38,096
I got funneled into a DUI checkpoint in Missouri

542
00:37:38,096 --> 00:37:40,676
in 2012, 2013.

543
00:37:41,956 --> 00:37:44,096
And the cop was like, I'm going to need you to get out.

544
00:37:44,216 --> 00:37:45,216
We need to breathalyze you.

545
00:37:45,556 --> 00:37:46,616
It's a DUI checkpoint.

546
00:37:46,736 --> 00:37:47,816
I was like, no, you can't do that.

547
00:37:48,196 --> 00:37:51,196
And he was pissed that I knew my rights and said no.

548
00:37:51,436 --> 00:37:53,416
And he made me do a field sobriety test passed.

549
00:37:53,936 --> 00:37:56,936
It was not driving drunk, but it was that little pushback,

550
00:37:56,996 --> 00:37:58,176
knowing your rights and to your point.

551
00:37:58,716 --> 00:38:02,996
I think in the industry, we need more people to say no to the government.

552
00:38:02,996 --> 00:38:05,696
Not only in our industry, I think just broadly speaking,

553
00:38:05,696 --> 00:38:11,196
people need to develop the intestinal fortitude to know when to say no to the government. Like

554
00:38:11,196 --> 00:38:17,036
you're trying to infringe on the rights of us as a company and our clients, and we're not going to

555
00:38:17,036 --> 00:38:22,976
stand for it. And I think many people would be surprised at how effective that can be. And again,

556
00:38:23,056 --> 00:38:27,696
thank God you're doing this. And I think it's important to highlight too. I know it's been

557
00:38:27,696 --> 00:38:35,336
seven years since you've been on the show and for anybody listening, I think it'd be

558
00:38:35,336 --> 00:38:41,376
worthwhile to talk about how you've designed your business, like the whole stack. And like,

559
00:38:41,416 --> 00:38:46,016
I think you guys are talking about like working around the edges and within the Overton window,

560
00:38:46,016 --> 00:38:50,456
as close to the edge as possible. I think the way you've designed your exchange, how

561
00:38:50,456 --> 00:38:56,436
your users buy Bitcoin, they get sent to self-custody, how they sell Bitcoin, the

562
00:38:56,436 --> 00:39:11,644
ability to do swaps with liquid and liquid tether I think from a design and architecture perspective the way you built your business particularly the tech stack is aligned with Cypherprunk principles

563
00:39:11,644 --> 00:39:15,264
as closely as possible while operating in the fiat system.

564
00:39:15,884 --> 00:39:16,224
Exactly.

565
00:39:16,224 --> 00:39:22,884
And we actually kind of try to conceptualize this

566
00:39:22,884 --> 00:39:25,684
inside the business with a chart,

567
00:39:26,044 --> 00:39:28,024
with literally a chart of,

568
00:39:28,744 --> 00:39:36,204
speed and on the top axis is like speed and skill and mass adoption.

569
00:39:36,404 --> 00:39:38,744
And the other axis is a compromise.

570
00:39:39,224 --> 00:39:43,784
So we try to do the least amount of compromise possible and see where we hit the ceiling.

571
00:39:43,984 --> 00:39:47,904
Right. Because because there's a point where if you don't do any compromise ever,

572
00:39:48,124 --> 00:39:49,884
then you can you can hit a ceiling.

573
00:39:49,884 --> 00:39:56,244
So basically we have this like level again, always like a line where we don't cross.

574
00:39:56,244 --> 00:40:01,124
an example of that is for example with the ball wallet you know i wanted to build and this is

575
00:40:01,124 --> 00:40:05,664
completely unrelated to like an exchange but it's the same kind of philosophy where we wanted to

576
00:40:05,664 --> 00:40:17,464
build um the most cypherpunk wallets but at the same time be usable on a mobile phone um and uh

577
00:40:17,464 --> 00:40:23,924
you know the examples that i like to use is something like sparrow or wasabi which are in

578
00:40:23,924 --> 00:40:31,064
my opinion, the gold standard of like full cypherpunk software, which is reproducible.

579
00:40:31,364 --> 00:40:35,304
It's not always open source, but it's reproducible and you can do Utexo selection and you can

580
00:40:35,304 --> 00:40:38,784
do this and that and like you can connect your hardware wallets and you're fully in

581
00:40:38,784 --> 00:40:39,164
control.

582
00:40:39,904 --> 00:40:42,384
And both of them are really usable software.

583
00:40:42,584 --> 00:40:48,284
Like Wasabi is easy to use-ish, you know, Sparrow is easy to use, like a boomer can use

584
00:40:48,284 --> 00:40:48,704
Sparrow.

585
00:40:49,424 --> 00:40:50,884
It's not that hard.

586
00:40:50,884 --> 00:40:55,224
So we wanted to build something that's very similar for mobile.

587
00:40:55,744 --> 00:41:00,804
But the problem that we reached was when we tried to integrate Lightning.

588
00:41:01,484 --> 00:41:02,904
When we tried to integrate Lightning,

589
00:41:03,124 --> 00:41:06,084
and we initially tried to do something that's kind of like the Phoenix wallet,

590
00:41:06,344 --> 00:41:07,884
which is a purely...

591
00:41:10,044 --> 00:41:12,344
Phoenix is also doing its own set of compromises.

592
00:41:12,924 --> 00:41:16,964
So it's not with the LSP, with just-in-time channels

593
00:41:16,964 --> 00:41:18,804
and the backup system and stuff like that.

594
00:41:18,804 --> 00:41:47,704
But when we tried to implement Lightning in the bull wallet, we realized that the absence of any kind of compromise just really did actually, we did hit a ceiling where we couldn't create a usable product that was satisfying my criteria, which is that I can orange pill a taxi driver and he can leave, I can tip him on my way out of the taxi within a few, you know, within a minute or two, and then he can be on board to Bitcoin.

595
00:41:47,704 --> 00:42:06,204
And so we compromised with Liquid. Liquid was the first big compromise that I decided to make. And it was very conscious and it was a very hard decision to do, which is like, I'm going to compromise on pure, full self-sovereignty and use this other network, which is not as trustless as Lightning.

596
00:42:07,204 --> 00:42:11,264
But there were other compromises that we could have made that I think would have been worse.

597
00:42:12,164 --> 00:42:14,564
And I don't want to get, this is not like a tech, I guess, episode.

598
00:42:14,744 --> 00:42:16,244
This is more like a political episode.

599
00:42:16,524 --> 00:42:20,204
But, you know, eCash, I thought was too much of a big compromise.

600
00:42:21,124 --> 00:42:23,244
Even Spark was too much of a big compromise.

601
00:42:24,204 --> 00:42:27,504
You know, there's other technologies like ARK, which are, they have different trade-offs.

602
00:42:27,784 --> 00:42:30,684
But anyway, so it's about setting up your ceiling of like no compromise.

603
00:42:30,684 --> 00:42:35,664
And then once you really hit that ceiling, once you really hit the limit, then you can say,

604
00:42:35,664 --> 00:42:41,504
okay, we really cannot reach our goal without compromising here. We've tried every single

605
00:42:41,504 --> 00:42:46,744
thing that we can and we cannot, then you can kind of like raise the compromise limit a little bit

606
00:42:46,744 --> 00:42:52,124
and see, okay, if I compromise like a little bit, what, what, um, what returns do I get on this

607
00:42:52,124 --> 00:42:56,024
compromise? Like you have to think of return on compromise. That's the new business metric.

608
00:42:56,264 --> 00:43:00,764
Okay. Fuck return on investment. It's return on compromise for every unit of compromise that I

609
00:43:00,764 --> 00:43:04,944
make, how much units of success am I getting? And that's the way that you have to conceive your

610
00:43:04,944 --> 00:43:09,124
business. All right, freaks, you know me, you know, I don't take sponsor money from products.

611
00:43:09,184 --> 00:43:13,724
I wouldn't use myself. So listen up. The AVEN Bitcoin Visa card is one of the most interesting

612
00:43:13,724 --> 00:43:17,844
things I've seen in the Bitcoin lending space in a long time. Here's the deal. You can get a line

613
00:43:17,844 --> 00:43:23,024
of credit up to a million dollars backed by your Bitcoin without selling a single sat, no gains,

614
00:43:23,024 --> 00:43:28,504
no annual fees, no minimum draws in your Bitcoin is custodied by BitGo, which is one of the most

615
00:43:28,504 --> 00:43:33,564
trusted names in digital asset security. AVEN never lends it out. There's no rehypothecation.

616
00:43:33,564 --> 00:43:38,384
you stay in control. And guess what? You can lock in a fixed rate for up to 10 years.

617
00:43:38,764 --> 00:43:43,364
That's 10 times longer than most lenders out there or go interest only for up to five years.

618
00:43:43,824 --> 00:43:49,404
Rates start at 7.99% APR for a product that lets you keep your stack and still access liquidity.

619
00:43:49,984 --> 00:43:55,064
It's hard to beat. I mean, the duration in the rates is the best I've seen in the market to date.

620
00:43:55,284 --> 00:44:00,904
You also get 2% unlimited cash back every time you use the card, spend fiat, keep your Bitcoin

621
00:44:00,904 --> 00:44:05,044
the whole game. If you've been stacking for years and you need liquidity without triggering

622
00:44:05,044 --> 00:44:12,764
the taxable event, this is worth a serious look. Go to aven.com slash Bitcoin. That's A-V-E-N.com

623
00:44:12,764 --> 00:44:17,544
slash Bitcoin. Check it out. Freaks, look at me. I'm glowing. I've got like an angel's halo

624
00:44:17,544 --> 00:44:22,424
going around me. You know why that is? I feel good. I feel taken care of. I feel blessed,

625
00:44:22,564 --> 00:44:26,004
healthy, happy. And that is because I'm a CrowdHealth member. My family and I have been

626
00:44:26,004 --> 00:44:30,464
CrowdHealth members for five years now, literally this month. Five years ago, we joined CrowdHealth.

627
00:44:30,464 --> 00:44:34,704
We've had two babies. We've had multiple health events and we're never going back to health

628
00:44:34,704 --> 00:44:39,804
insurance. CrowdHealth is crowdfunded healthcare. So you sign up for CrowdHealth, you pay a monthly

629
00:44:39,804 --> 00:44:45,904
fee, you help out with other people's bills. And it's significantly cheaper than health insurance.

630
00:44:46,044 --> 00:44:51,124
We were on COBRA as a family of three when I left my last job before I went full-time with CFTC,

631
00:44:51,744 --> 00:44:58,084
went on the CrowdHealth. Now as a family of five, we pay, I believe, $700 a month. It's

632
00:44:58,084 --> 00:45:02,044
significantly cheaper. They're going to negotiate prices lower for you. They've consistently

633
00:45:02,044 --> 00:45:08,484
negotiated healthcare prices as much as 50, 60, 80%. In many cases, they help out with babies.

634
00:45:08,484 --> 00:45:12,144
If you have a pregnancy, you pay the first $3,000 and the crowd covers the rest.

635
00:45:12,824 --> 00:45:17,464
If you have a regular health event, you pay $500 and the crowd pays the rest.

636
00:45:17,584 --> 00:45:22,764
Go to joincrowdhealth.com. Sign up today. Use the code TFTC. Opt out of health insurance. I'm

637
00:45:22,764 --> 00:45:28,044
uninsured baby and I love it. Use the code TFTC at joincrowdhealth.com and you'll get $99 a month

638
00:45:28,044 --> 00:45:32,944
for the first three months that you're on the crowd health platform in the community. Bitcoiners,

639
00:45:33,204 --> 00:45:37,044
you found sovereign money, now find sovereign health and sovereign healthcare.

640
00:45:37,604 --> 00:45:39,924
I mean, talking about the tech stack, I know you said it's not a tech episode,

641
00:45:40,164 --> 00:45:46,664
it's more political, but I think they intertwine, particularly now with all this legislation that's

642
00:45:46,664 --> 00:45:53,044
coming across the world to really cattle herd Bitcoiners into this digital panopticon. I've

643
00:45:53,044 --> 00:46:00,524
been saying this a lot in the last year it is incredibly frustrating because if allowed to i

644
00:46:00,524 --> 00:46:07,404
think builders like yourself and others out there could re-architect the global monetary and banking

645
00:46:07,404 --> 00:46:14,804
system with a new tech stack that is much more efficient in way uh is far superior to the

646
00:46:14,804 --> 00:46:19,824
incumbent financial system and monetary system that exists like we have the potential to build

647
00:46:19,824 --> 00:46:23,884
true sci-fi, cypherpunk, monetary and banking rails.

648
00:46:24,144 --> 00:46:30,324
And we're just being confined to this compromise matrix that you described because of the insane

649
00:46:30,324 --> 00:46:38,164
regulations and the thirst for control by the governments and the supranational unelected

650
00:46:38,164 --> 00:46:39,104
bureaucrats of the world.

651
00:46:40,524 --> 00:46:41,044
Yeah.

652
00:46:41,144 --> 00:46:47,704
And there's so many technologies that people think that Bitcoin is like old tech and it's

653
00:46:47,704 --> 00:46:48,664
not good for privacy.

654
00:46:48,664 --> 00:46:51,384
and you should use Zcash instead.

655
00:46:52,544 --> 00:46:55,624
You've got the suits that are pushing for Zcash

656
00:46:55,624 --> 00:46:58,724
and then you've got the Jason Bourne style

657
00:46:58,724 --> 00:47:01,124
hardcore cypherpunks pushing for Monero

658
00:47:01,124 --> 00:47:03,784
and then you've got the retards pushing for Ethereum

659
00:47:03,784 --> 00:47:04,184
and so on.

660
00:47:05,224 --> 00:47:07,584
But there's a lot of technologies in Bitcoin.

661
00:47:07,884 --> 00:47:09,544
If I was to design it from scratch,

662
00:47:09,704 --> 00:47:12,064
I don't think that privacy would be that much of an issue.

663
00:47:13,724 --> 00:47:15,884
And for whatever reason,

664
00:47:15,884 --> 00:47:20,764
people are afraid to use Bitcoin privacy technologies in their stack because somehow

665
00:47:20,764 --> 00:47:25,084
they think the government is going to be upset at them. There are cases in Europe

666
00:47:25,084 --> 00:47:33,464
where a bunch of exchanges decided to drop the Lightning Network. And who knows why in truth,

667
00:47:33,584 --> 00:47:39,844
but I suspect that it was because they believe that Lightning was not necessarily compatible with

668
00:47:39,844 --> 00:47:44,824
like the travel rule or KYC AML laws, which I think is complete bullshit. Like

669
00:47:44,824 --> 00:47:49,024
when we got our Mika license, we still kept Lightning and we still kept Liquid.

670
00:47:50,004 --> 00:47:53,064
We still kept PayJoin and all those kinds of technologies.

671
00:47:53,384 --> 00:47:56,404
And then I'm sure the government, they ask questions about,

672
00:47:56,544 --> 00:47:57,504
what is this PayJoin thing?

673
00:47:57,564 --> 00:47:59,204
And we're like, don't look at that.

674
00:47:59,724 --> 00:48:02,684
It's not illegal.

675
00:48:03,044 --> 00:48:03,724
It's a transaction batching.

676
00:48:04,244 --> 00:48:07,724
It's collaborative transaction batching and it helps you save on fees.

677
00:48:07,724 --> 00:48:11,944
And there's a side effect that it improves privacy.

678
00:48:12,424 --> 00:48:14,244
Same thing with Lightning and same thing with Liquid.

679
00:48:14,824 --> 00:48:17,684
and all you have to do is say,

680
00:48:17,844 --> 00:48:19,864
like, no, you have to defend those technologies

681
00:48:19,864 --> 00:48:21,184
as being, like, purely valid,

682
00:48:21,304 --> 00:48:24,864
and you have to also defend the user against...

683
00:48:25,664 --> 00:48:26,624
That's kind of, like, the argument

684
00:48:26,624 --> 00:48:27,664
that we're using in France.

685
00:48:27,764 --> 00:48:31,364
It's like, let's reframe this as

686
00:48:31,364 --> 00:48:37,744
from bad people trying to finance terrorism

687
00:48:37,744 --> 00:48:40,564
to people trying not to get kidnapped,

688
00:48:40,764 --> 00:48:42,544
and that's a very successful reframing,

689
00:48:43,044 --> 00:48:44,244
and, you know, to your point, like,

690
00:48:44,244 --> 00:48:47,264
if KYC was not mandated legally,

691
00:48:48,464 --> 00:48:50,464
I would still probably do some.

692
00:48:50,524 --> 00:48:53,104
We would still probably do some voluntarily.

693
00:48:53,924 --> 00:48:56,364
A good example of that is in Costa Rica.

694
00:48:56,904 --> 00:49:00,264
In Costa Rica, there is no KYC rules.

695
00:49:00,824 --> 00:49:04,364
Bitcoin is entirely unregulated in Costa Rica.

696
00:49:04,824 --> 00:49:06,644
There's no legislation at all

697
00:49:06,644 --> 00:49:08,324
forcing us to do any type of KYC.

698
00:49:09,204 --> 00:49:11,684
But we do enhance due diligence

699
00:49:11,684 --> 00:49:22,144
And we do KYC some people in Costa Rica because I don't want to have, you know, I'm not a fan of Islamic terrorism killing my people in Europe.

700
00:49:22,584 --> 00:49:26,784
I don't want to deal with, as a business, I do not want to deal with Islamic terrorists.

701
00:49:27,964 --> 00:49:31,764
I do not want to deal with, there is child trafficking.

702
00:49:32,024 --> 00:49:32,584
That is a thing.

703
00:49:33,044 --> 00:49:35,364
And some of them might use Bitcoin.

704
00:49:35,484 --> 00:49:40,024
I don't think they do use Bitcoin in reality, but some probably do.

705
00:49:40,024 --> 00:49:44,004
there's probably some instances of that where Bitcoin is used. I don't want to deal with that.

706
00:49:44,384 --> 00:49:51,404
I don't want to deal with cartels that smuggle fentanyl and decimate my civilization. And I also

707
00:49:51,404 --> 00:49:55,884
certainly do not want to deal with scammers that steal money from old people with a bunch of crypto

708
00:49:55,884 --> 00:50:04,524
scams. So there is a point where even as a business that's not mandated to do KYC, I would still

709
00:50:04,524 --> 00:50:10,004
probably do some of it, especially for fraud and especially to protect elderly people from

710
00:50:10,004 --> 00:50:19,564
getting scammed. But that's a purely voluntary business decision. Another thing where the

711
00:50:19,564 --> 00:50:26,964
industry has been super cucked, very cucked, is chain analysis. So chain analysis, at the same

712
00:50:26,964 --> 00:50:34,084
time, is a big threat to privacy, but at the same time as well, is a fucking scam. It's a pure LARP.

713
00:50:34,084 --> 00:50:38,684
the amount of false positive that you get on chain analysis is surreal

714
00:50:38,684 --> 00:50:42,764
we get a bunch of requests from a bunch of law enforcements and a bunch of

715
00:50:42,764 --> 00:50:46,544
governments and a bunch of people all the time at Bull Bickhorn that are like hey

716
00:50:46,544 --> 00:50:50,544
our chain analysis has identified that this transaction belongs to you

717
00:50:50,544 --> 00:50:54,244
and we look and it's like no it's not us so chain analysis just

718
00:50:54,244 --> 00:50:57,844
completely sucks and I don't think provides

719
00:50:57,844 --> 00:51:02,644
and it's not legally mandated chain analysis was never legally mandated

720
00:51:02,644 --> 00:51:04,164
in any country that I'm aware of,

721
00:51:04,524 --> 00:51:05,544
what you have to do as an exchange

722
00:51:05,544 --> 00:51:07,584
is to make sure that sanctioned entities

723
00:51:07,584 --> 00:51:08,904
are not using your company.

724
00:51:09,344 --> 00:51:10,324
But what you can do is,

725
00:51:10,504 --> 00:51:11,884
and that's what we do, for example,

726
00:51:12,004 --> 00:51:13,804
we don't use a third-party chain analysis service.

727
00:51:14,064 --> 00:51:15,644
We download the list of addresses

728
00:51:15,644 --> 00:51:17,244
and we check internally to see

729
00:51:17,244 --> 00:51:18,664
if one of those sanctioned entities

730
00:51:18,664 --> 00:51:19,604
is dealing with us.

731
00:51:19,984 --> 00:51:21,444
You don't have to send all of your data

732
00:51:21,444 --> 00:51:22,904
to third-party chain analysis companies.

733
00:51:23,004 --> 00:51:24,404
And I guarantee you that all the exchanges

734
00:51:24,404 --> 00:51:25,024
are doing that.

735
00:51:25,344 --> 00:51:26,564
Every single Bitcoin address

736
00:51:26,564 --> 00:51:28,244
that's ever been used on,

737
00:51:28,664 --> 00:51:30,184
let's say, almost all of the exchanges,

738
00:51:30,184 --> 00:51:33,304
except the select few that are kind of like,

739
00:51:33,384 --> 00:51:33,464
well,

740
00:51:33,524 --> 00:51:34,384
bull is not the only one,

741
00:51:34,464 --> 00:51:35,024
but there's like,

742
00:51:35,344 --> 00:51:35,664
I don't know,

743
00:51:35,704 --> 00:51:38,704
maybe two or three or four worldwide that I know that have like the same

744
00:51:38,704 --> 00:51:39,124
approach.

745
00:51:39,624 --> 00:51:42,124
So you don't have to use chain analysis to be compliant,

746
00:51:42,124 --> 00:51:46,504
but then the industry kind of like had this desire to be over

747
00:51:46,504 --> 00:51:49,684
compliant and to show the banks that we're doing as much as we want.

748
00:51:50,244 --> 00:51:51,224
So we created,

749
00:51:51,644 --> 00:51:52,804
not we,

750
00:51:53,084 --> 00:51:57,384
they created this kind of like meme around chain analysis that in order to

751
00:51:57,384 --> 00:51:59,784
be a good crypto citizen,

752
00:51:59,784 --> 00:52:04,964
then you have to have this $100,000 a year subscription to the

753
00:52:04,992 --> 00:52:08,852
analysis software company, and you have to send every single address that you have.

754
00:52:09,072 --> 00:52:12,832
And that's a big problem. That's also one of the reasons why a lot of the

755
00:52:12,832 --> 00:52:16,912
exchanges, they don't support, they force address

756
00:52:16,912 --> 00:52:20,972
reuse. They're forcing address reuse because it makes their chain analysis easier.

757
00:52:21,552 --> 00:52:24,852
And what that does is that not only that fucks with everybody's

758
00:52:24,852 --> 00:52:28,212
privacy, but it also exposes these addresses to quantum risks.

759
00:52:28,472 --> 00:52:32,252
Because if you reuse an address, you've revealed the public key when you spend it.

760
00:52:32,252 --> 00:52:35,112
that exposes a new level of quantum risk.

761
00:52:35,452 --> 00:52:36,772
So this kind of like,

762
00:52:36,932 --> 00:52:40,112
it's not only that people are not fighting back,

763
00:52:40,892 --> 00:52:42,012
the industry is not fighting back,

764
00:52:42,052 --> 00:52:44,092
but the industry is proactively cucking itself

765
00:52:44,092 --> 00:52:48,792
in order to try to dispel the myth of the shadiness.

766
00:52:48,792 --> 00:52:52,672
You know, it's like they have like an inferiority complex.

767
00:52:52,912 --> 00:52:54,172
Like, no, you know, we're not sketchy.

768
00:52:54,252 --> 00:52:55,532
Like, we're just like you guys.

769
00:52:55,612 --> 00:52:56,332
We're just like Wall Street.

770
00:52:56,452 --> 00:52:57,092
We're just like banks.

771
00:52:57,192 --> 00:52:58,232
We want to play by the rules.

772
00:52:58,492 --> 00:53:00,972
So we're going to invent these industry-wide rules.

773
00:53:00,972 --> 00:53:04,792
And the thing about chain analysis, it's an interesting rule.

774
00:53:06,452 --> 00:53:10,292
Again, that was fully created by exchanges, not by governments.

775
00:53:10,552 --> 00:53:12,972
The requirements use chain analysis.

776
00:53:13,772 --> 00:53:24,452
And now, like eight years later, if you're an exchange that doesn't, you know, and if you're applying for a partnership with a bank, they're going to be like, which chain analysis provider do you use?

777
00:53:24,452 --> 00:53:33,592
And if you say no, then they're immediately going to flag you as sketchy because we've created this expectation of compliance, which was not required at all.

778
00:53:34,232 --> 00:53:40,332
And then eventually this custom, so this is like an industry custom, customs tend to become law.

779
00:53:41,612 --> 00:53:48,252
So, you know, currently chain analysis by third parties, like even with Mika, which is really hardcore European regulation,

780
00:53:48,252 --> 00:53:54,452
they do not actually legally mandate chain analysis.

781
00:53:54,592 --> 00:53:57,332
But if you don't have a chain analysis subscription,

782
00:53:57,552 --> 00:54:01,352
you have to go above and beyond to demonstrate that you're still doing that.

783
00:54:01,652 --> 00:54:05,592
So yeah, the industry has been cucking itself pretty badly.

784
00:54:06,432 --> 00:54:08,272
And of course, it creates a moat, right?

785
00:54:08,272 --> 00:54:12,592
And like Boll, if I was to start Boll Bitcoin today,

786
00:54:12,652 --> 00:54:15,232
there's zero chance that I would be able to succeed.

787
00:54:15,372 --> 00:54:15,752
Zero chance.

788
00:54:15,752 --> 00:54:18,952
because the moat of compliance is so big.

789
00:54:19,192 --> 00:54:20,692
Like Mika, I don't know how much it costs us,

790
00:54:20,692 --> 00:54:23,292
but I don't know.

791
00:54:23,452 --> 00:54:24,312
There's all sorts of costs,

792
00:54:24,392 --> 00:54:25,972
but probably close to a million dollars

793
00:54:25,972 --> 00:54:27,512
just to get the Mika license.

794
00:54:27,652 --> 00:54:28,532
And it took like two years.

795
00:54:28,672 --> 00:54:30,052
And at some point we had like six people

796
00:54:30,052 --> 00:54:32,772
working like full time on this for many, many months.

797
00:54:33,732 --> 00:54:35,452
The cost of compliance is huge.

798
00:54:36,292 --> 00:54:42,632
And the level of, you know, yeah, it's really huge.

799
00:54:42,772 --> 00:54:44,332
And then when I've launched Bull Bitcoin,

800
00:54:44,332 --> 00:54:52,992
I launched Bitcoin like a classic American startup, like in my garage, basically, with no funding, just like hustling with one person and then two and then three.

801
00:54:53,712 --> 00:54:59,632
And then that's kind of like how we were able to, I believe, be so successful is because of the lack of funding.

802
00:55:00,472 --> 00:55:08,212
We had to be very, very, very careful about A, not spending too much money and B, treating the customers correctly.

803
00:55:08,212 --> 00:55:13,092
Because if you're massively funded, you don't really need customers to like you.

804
00:55:13,092 --> 00:55:15,352
you just need to raise the next round.

805
00:55:15,892 --> 00:55:17,112
Whereas if you're self-funded,

806
00:55:17,392 --> 00:55:18,952
if the customers don't like your product,

807
00:55:19,072 --> 00:55:19,612
then you're fucked

808
00:55:19,612 --> 00:55:21,272
because they're your number one source of funding.

809
00:55:23,032 --> 00:55:25,052
But with all the regulation that you had,

810
00:55:25,132 --> 00:55:26,172
if I was to start today,

811
00:55:26,252 --> 00:55:27,072
it would not be possible.

812
00:55:27,192 --> 00:55:28,792
Of course, the reason why we can afford

813
00:55:28,792 --> 00:55:32,352
to spend a fucking million dollars on this license

814
00:55:32,352 --> 00:55:37,052
is because we were early, essentially,

815
00:55:37,172 --> 00:55:38,332
because we did that 10 years ago.

816
00:55:38,392 --> 00:55:39,632
But if I was to start today,

817
00:55:39,852 --> 00:55:41,532
I wouldn't be able to do that.

818
00:55:41,532 --> 00:55:44,792
So these companies have obviously a massive interest in creating this moat.

819
00:55:45,352 --> 00:55:50,332
To give you an example, like in Europe, there was about 4,000 something crypto companies in Europe.

820
00:55:50,872 --> 00:55:53,212
And about 260 got a license.

821
00:55:53,532 --> 00:55:54,792
I make a license in Europe.

822
00:55:54,952 --> 00:55:58,632
So it's like about 90% of all crypto companies just got kicked out of Europe.

823
00:55:59,632 --> 00:56:01,252
And a week ago, right?

824
00:56:01,332 --> 00:56:02,712
And it went live July 1st.

825
00:56:03,032 --> 00:56:03,552
Yeah, a week ago.

826
00:56:03,632 --> 00:56:04,632
Even Binance didn't make it.

827
00:56:04,732 --> 00:56:05,692
If Binance can't make it.

828
00:56:05,792 --> 00:56:09,612
Well, you know, also Binance is, you know, it's Binance.

829
00:56:09,612 --> 00:56:11,592
But even Binance didn't make it.

830
00:56:11,752 --> 00:56:15,792
And pretty much all the crypto companies, we made it at the last minute.

831
00:56:16,912 --> 00:56:18,572
And it was a close call.

832
00:56:18,972 --> 00:56:19,812
Strike got it.

833
00:56:20,132 --> 00:56:21,992
The deadline was July 1st.

834
00:56:22,272 --> 00:56:24,112
We got it on June 2nd, 22nd.

835
00:56:24,432 --> 00:56:28,932
Strike got it on July 28th or something, three days before the deadline was over.

836
00:56:29,472 --> 00:56:31,832
And if you didn't get it before the deadline, you were essentially fucked.

837
00:56:33,832 --> 00:56:36,472
And yeah, so there's tons of little brokers.

838
00:56:36,472 --> 00:56:39,112
And that's how BullBitcoin started in Europe, actually.

839
00:56:39,112 --> 00:56:42,592
was this broker, this Bitcoin-only cypherpunk brokerage

840
00:56:42,592 --> 00:56:44,372
from France called Leonod.

841
00:56:45,072 --> 00:56:47,392
And they've been operating since like 2018.

842
00:56:47,732 --> 00:56:51,712
And they were like your local Bitcoin broker.

843
00:56:52,412 --> 00:56:53,632
And they came to me and they're like,

844
00:56:53,732 --> 00:56:57,212
dude, there's zero chance that we're ever going to be able to get Mika.

845
00:56:57,212 --> 00:57:02,612
So either we sell you the business or we're just going to close shop.

846
00:57:03,252 --> 00:57:08,952
So I acquired this brokerage in order to get a long regulatory story.

847
00:57:08,952 --> 00:57:09,972
but I acquired this brokerage.

848
00:57:10,572 --> 00:57:13,012
And I can tell you, I've had many, many people

849
00:57:13,012 --> 00:57:14,712
reach out to BullBitcoin to be like,

850
00:57:14,832 --> 00:57:16,872
we're closing shop in Europe.

851
00:57:17,052 --> 00:57:18,852
We can't afford to comply.

852
00:57:20,292 --> 00:57:21,412
Do you want to buy us out?

853
00:57:21,492 --> 00:57:23,092
And of course, like, I can't, I don't want to.

854
00:57:23,792 --> 00:57:26,732
So it's kind of like all the small good guys

855
00:57:26,732 --> 00:57:28,752
are getting closed down and only the big guys,

856
00:57:29,132 --> 00:57:30,952
very few of the small good guys are able to

857
00:57:31,792 --> 00:57:34,072
to remain in operation.

858
00:57:34,372 --> 00:57:35,652
So it sucks.

859
00:57:35,652 --> 00:57:43,232
It sucks because, of course, all the Coinbases and Binances and Kraken and all these guys have nothing against them.

860
00:57:43,332 --> 00:57:53,692
But they obviously have a vested interest in the regulation because they have the bandwidth and they have the funding and they have the weight, the political capital to remain in operation.

861
00:57:53,692 --> 00:57:55,612
So they want these moats.

862
00:57:55,812 --> 00:58:01,172
Whether they subconsciously want to expel their competition or not is another thing.

863
00:58:01,412 --> 00:58:05,232
But, you know, deep down, I'm sure the Coinbase likes regulation.

864
00:58:05,652 --> 00:58:08,832
You know, finance likes regulation, except when they get kicked out of Europe.

865
00:58:08,832 --> 00:58:10,632
But they usually like regulation.

866
00:58:11,472 --> 00:58:15,272
Yeah, they probably don't mind their competition getting taken behind the woodshed.

867
00:58:15,352 --> 00:58:16,832
I don't think they share the same.

868
00:58:16,832 --> 00:58:19,352
Yeah, I don't I don't think they share the same free market.

869
00:58:20,592 --> 00:58:22,212
Ideas as we do.

870
00:58:23,372 --> 00:58:28,512
But they're they're liberating the liberating finance and money on the Internet.

871
00:58:28,692 --> 00:58:29,732
That's what Coinbase is doing.

872
00:58:29,852 --> 00:58:32,432
They're bringing freedom money to everybody.

873
00:58:33,912 --> 00:58:35,512
They're they're democratizing finance.

874
00:58:35,512 --> 00:58:37,112
That's what I heard, yeah.

875
00:58:38,392 --> 00:58:41,852
With USDC and prediction markets and gambling.

876
00:58:44,092 --> 00:58:45,532
Democratizing gambling is more like it.

877
00:58:45,832 --> 00:58:47,092
Yeah, it's disgusting.

878
00:58:48,992 --> 00:58:50,572
On the point of chain surveillance too,

879
00:58:50,572 --> 00:58:54,292
I know we talked about it, you mentioned it a while ago,

880
00:58:54,332 --> 00:58:55,112
but I wanted to bring it up.

881
00:58:55,252 --> 00:58:56,692
Roman Sterlingov's in jail.

882
00:58:57,812 --> 00:59:00,372
There's been plenty of people pointed out that chain analysis,

883
00:59:00,372 --> 00:59:06,712
their analysis of what they deemed to be him buying that domain was completely wrong.

884
00:59:06,992 --> 00:59:09,012
And still, he's in jail.

885
00:59:09,572 --> 00:59:17,012
The defense said, hey, can we audit chain analysis their systems to make sure that they actually did this right?

886
00:59:17,052 --> 00:59:20,112
And they said, no, it's a black box. You don't get access to it. It's proprietary.

887
00:59:21,652 --> 00:59:24,512
That is one of the biggest travesties. It is very dangerous.

888
00:59:24,512 --> 00:59:37,372
And I can confirm and guarantee that trend analysis reports are being used to get warrants and also to convict people.

889
00:59:37,952 --> 00:59:39,492
And there are false positives.

890
00:59:39,492 --> 00:59:54,092
So this is like the equivalent of using 1970s fingerprint technology to convict somebody of a crime based on probability heuristics, which are completely bogus.

891
00:59:54,512 --> 01:00:01,672
I have some personal stories that I will share eventually.

892
01:00:03,012 --> 01:00:10,212
I don't want this to be the scenario, but I can guarantee you that false positives are very bad.

893
01:00:10,292 --> 01:00:13,692
People are getting arrested with false positive chain analysis.

894
01:00:14,632 --> 01:00:21,772
And it's frightening because judges will take a chain analysis report at face value

895
01:00:21,772 --> 01:00:28,292
and consider it to be as damning as DNA fingerprint on the gun,

896
01:00:28,652 --> 01:00:29,512
like the video camera.

897
01:00:29,512 --> 01:00:33,532
Like, chain analysis will come up with this report, say,

898
01:00:33,692 --> 01:00:46,528
okay Roman Chernoff is the guy that was operating the Bitcoin fog because of this PDF that I have which proves that it him The judge will see that and be like that is the same thing

899
01:00:46,688 --> 01:00:48,768
It has the same weight as a fingerprint on the gun.

900
01:00:49,068 --> 01:00:54,088
And there's like video camera with like 93% facial recognition.

901
01:00:54,228 --> 01:00:56,448
And the DNA was on the victim.

902
01:00:57,368 --> 01:01:00,968
They really believe that this evidence is like flawless.

903
01:01:00,968 --> 01:01:05,768
Whereas I can guarantee you that it's fucking retarded because it's so retarded.

904
01:01:05,928 --> 01:01:29,288
And even there's a brilliant report by Peter Todd where I don't know how this wasn't like major news, but Peter Todd in his report on chain analysis and Wasabi points out that he was at a dinner with one of the founders of chain analysis or like a VP of chain analysis or something.

905
01:01:29,288 --> 01:01:31,428
he was drunk right and he was loose lips

906
01:01:31,428 --> 01:01:33,588
he was drunk and he was bragging

907
01:01:33,588 --> 01:01:35,308
that their shit is fucking phony as hell

908
01:01:35,308 --> 01:01:36,548
it's complete LARP

909
01:01:36,548 --> 01:01:39,348
it's just it's a warrant factory

910
01:01:39,348 --> 01:01:41,548
you want a warrant on anybody

911
01:01:41,548 --> 01:01:43,428
on earth just go to

912
01:01:43,428 --> 01:01:45,228
Chain Analysis and you know

913
01:01:45,228 --> 01:01:47,448
they'll find a way to link his Bitcoin

914
01:01:47,448 --> 01:01:49,348
to some crime and then

915
01:01:49,348 --> 01:01:51,448
they meet you at the airport

916
01:01:51,448 --> 01:01:52,788
and they fucking cuff you

917
01:01:52,788 --> 01:01:53,708
and then

918
01:01:53,708 --> 01:01:57,108
you know and then you have to hire your own counter

919
01:01:57,108 --> 01:01:59,008
Chain Analysis and then it becomes

920
01:01:59,008 --> 01:02:03,048
a battle of experts. Yeah, it's frightening. That's part of

921
01:02:03,048 --> 01:02:07,088
the reason why I'm so interested in technologies like Pajoin, for example, because one of

922
01:02:07,088 --> 01:02:10,648
the foundational heuristics of chain analysis is the common

923
01:02:10,648 --> 01:02:14,148
input ownership heuristic. There's a lot of

924
01:02:14,148 --> 01:02:17,348
false assumptions that chain analysis makes.

925
01:02:19,048 --> 01:02:23,228
Some of it is about identifying change and some of it is about

926
01:02:23,228 --> 01:02:26,908
fingerprinting and stuff like that. But the worst one, I think, is

927
01:02:26,908 --> 01:02:32,248
chain analysis makes the assumption that every input in a transaction belongs to the same person.

928
01:02:32,788 --> 01:02:34,948
And from this heuristic, they build their analysis.

929
01:02:36,228 --> 01:02:42,468
So part of the reason why I'm so involved in building and promoting PayJoin

930
01:02:42,468 --> 01:02:47,488
is that on a massive scale, if enough people use PayJoin,

931
01:02:49,488 --> 01:02:53,948
and what PayJoin does is it breaks this heuristic.

932
01:02:53,948 --> 01:02:58,588
Like in a pay join transaction, the inputs don't belong to the same person.

933
01:02:58,748 --> 01:03:01,828
Some of them belong to the recipient and some of them belong to the sender.

934
01:03:02,708 --> 01:03:13,628
So if a sizable percentage of transactions on the network are pay join, then at a legal level, we can actually legally challenge chain analysis as evidence.

935
01:03:13,628 --> 01:03:17,908
and there's a legal principle in U.S. case law,

936
01:03:18,408 --> 01:03:21,008
which I think that would be probably the next legal battle

937
01:03:21,008 --> 01:03:25,108
that I want to do is to challenge the legality of chain analysis

938
01:03:25,108 --> 01:03:27,688
to be like, hey, it is based on faulty evidence.

939
01:03:28,608 --> 01:03:30,748
And if that's the case,

940
01:03:31,268 --> 01:03:33,748
then not only can it not be used for a warrant,

941
01:03:33,828 --> 01:03:34,728
but people that were convicted,

942
01:03:35,208 --> 01:03:37,988
it should be retried because the evidence was not good.

943
01:03:38,648 --> 01:03:41,808
Kind of like, I think this is a common thing

944
01:03:41,808 --> 01:03:43,688
where 30 years later,

945
01:03:44,008 --> 01:03:45,708
now that the DNA evidence is better,

946
01:03:45,788 --> 01:03:47,448
we realize that the previous DNA evidence

947
01:03:47,448 --> 01:03:49,068
was not good.

948
01:03:50,328 --> 01:03:52,208
So that's probably the next...

949
01:03:52,208 --> 01:03:54,348
And again, we need to be using the courts

950
01:03:54,348 --> 01:03:55,208
for our advantage.

951
01:03:55,708 --> 01:03:56,768
Cypherpunks write code,

952
01:03:56,848 --> 01:03:58,788
but cypherpunks also use the legal system.

953
01:03:59,448 --> 01:04:00,728
We don't really have a choice.

954
01:04:00,868 --> 01:04:01,868
I really do believe that.

955
01:04:01,928 --> 01:04:03,948
I've had many discussions with cypherpunks

956
01:04:03,948 --> 01:04:06,888
and they also tell me

957
01:04:06,888 --> 01:04:10,768
yes, this is a key cypherpunk principle

958
01:04:10,768 --> 01:04:15,228
is to, you know, Hal Finney and Adam Back

959
01:04:15,228 --> 01:04:18,468
with the arms exports kind of thing that they did.

960
01:04:18,468 --> 01:04:21,608
Like, we need to, there we go.

961
01:04:23,248 --> 01:04:25,188
That's what happens always in the background.

962
01:04:25,988 --> 01:04:26,308
Hell yeah.

963
01:04:27,348 --> 01:04:29,948
Yeah, so cypherpunks use the law to their advantage.

964
01:04:30,748 --> 01:04:32,688
And they also fight legal battles.

965
01:04:33,268 --> 01:04:34,728
And I also want to make a distinction

966
01:04:34,728 --> 01:04:36,408
between political battles and legal battles.

967
01:04:36,408 --> 01:04:41,008
I think political battles are not fully obsolete.

968
01:04:41,648 --> 01:04:42,568
They're mostly obsolete.

969
01:04:42,868 --> 01:04:53,448
But thank God we still have some kind of legal system where the courts are presumably at least making a half-assed attempt to protect the rights of the individuals.

970
01:04:53,588 --> 01:04:55,088
And we should leverage that to the maximum.

971
01:04:56,088 --> 01:04:57,028
Completely agree.

972
01:04:57,828 --> 01:05:00,788
What's the current state of pay joint adoption?

973
01:05:00,788 --> 01:05:06,268
Obviously, you guys have implemented it and what you're doing at BullBitcoin.

974
01:05:08,028 --> 01:05:11,608
I think there's a couple others maybe, but are you talking to any?

975
01:05:11,868 --> 01:05:17,368
Because I think if you get exchanges like BullBitcoin, we need a few others to do it.

976
01:05:17,508 --> 01:05:22,668
And that's a good jumping off point to get towards that critical mass that you described earlier.

977
01:05:23,368 --> 01:05:27,808
So when we integrated PageLine, it was kind of like the reckless thing to do.

978
01:05:27,808 --> 01:05:30,728
It was very early alpha level technology.

979
01:05:30,788 --> 01:05:34,388
and there was a few other companies

980
01:05:34,388 --> 01:05:36,308
that did it at the same time as us.

981
01:05:36,368 --> 01:05:38,668
There's Cake, Cake Wallet,

982
01:05:39,008 --> 01:05:41,288
a shitcoin wallet, but we love them anyway.

983
01:05:42,628 --> 01:05:45,228
And Sparrow and Blue.

984
01:05:45,848 --> 01:05:47,108
But all of us were kind of like

985
01:05:47,108 --> 01:05:48,868
on incompatible versions of Payjoin

986
01:05:48,868 --> 01:05:52,268
because either the technology was shifting so much

987
01:05:52,268 --> 01:05:53,508
that there was like breaking change

988
01:05:53,508 --> 01:05:55,968
or we were using different Payjoin protocols.

989
01:05:56,228 --> 01:05:59,088
Like Blue was using Samurai's Payjoin protocol

990
01:05:59,088 --> 01:06:02,248
and Sparrow was using, I think, also Samurai's PayJoin protocol,

991
01:06:02,428 --> 01:06:04,228
whereas we were using BIP77.

992
01:06:04,568 --> 01:06:05,428
Anyway, technical stuff.

993
01:06:06,388 --> 01:06:12,708
But the PayJoin project, which is supported by private companies,

994
01:06:12,708 --> 01:06:14,668
but also a lot of nonprofits,

995
01:06:15,048 --> 01:06:19,628
has reached a level where we have what's called PayJoin version 1,

996
01:06:20,108 --> 01:06:21,408
where the protocol is stable.

997
01:06:23,008 --> 01:06:27,688
So BOL has it, but we're on version 0.23 or something.

998
01:06:27,788 --> 01:06:28,628
Anyway, long story short.

999
01:06:28,628 --> 01:06:31,968
Bull is upgrading to the latest version.

1000
01:06:32,248 --> 01:06:32,948
Everybody's doing that.

1001
01:06:33,368 --> 01:06:34,768
Cake is also upgraded to the latest version.

1002
01:06:34,908 --> 01:06:36,128
So Cake and Bull are going to be compatible.

1003
01:06:37,108 --> 01:06:39,488
And in terms of exchanges, I think that...

1004
01:06:39,488 --> 01:06:42,888
So technically, Bull, this is kind of like breaking news,

1005
01:06:43,428 --> 01:06:45,628
but PayJoin was only in the wallet.

1006
01:06:46,168 --> 01:06:47,268
It was not in the exchange.

1007
01:06:47,628 --> 01:06:49,848
So we've just managed to put it in the exchange.

1008
01:06:49,928 --> 01:06:51,168
It is currently in the exchange now.

1009
01:06:51,208 --> 01:06:51,948
It hasn't been announced.

1010
01:06:52,248 --> 01:06:55,148
And it's kind of like hidden from the general public.

1011
01:06:55,148 --> 01:06:57,508
It's like an experimental feature.

1012
01:06:57,508 --> 01:07:03,408
but bull is now um the exchange now has page on allowing people to buy and sell bitcoin with

1013
01:07:03,408 --> 01:07:08,168
page on um and i believe that a bunch of a bunch of others maybe two or three that i know of

1014
01:07:08,168 --> 01:07:14,828
that are either exchanges or swap providers um are swap providers would be would be massive like

1015
01:07:14,828 --> 01:07:18,188
companies like bolts like you know if they were to integrate page on that would be massive

1016
01:07:18,188 --> 01:07:25,508
um so it's unfortunately the adoption is low adoption of page on is low um but think about

1017
01:07:25,508 --> 01:07:29,508
it like this, like if the bull wallet and the bull exchange talk to each other and both have

1018
01:07:29,508 --> 01:07:33,468
page on and transactions are page on by default, like every single

1019
01:07:33,468 --> 01:07:37,208
transaction between a bull wallet user in the exchange is going to be page on by default.

1020
01:07:37,288 --> 01:07:41,208
So just that is going to create tens of thousands,

1021
01:07:41,328 --> 01:07:45,428
hundreds of thousands of page on transactions. If you add bolts to that,

1022
01:07:45,968 --> 01:07:49,268
everybody that does a swap with bolts from the bull wallet, that's going to be another

1023
01:07:49,268 --> 01:07:52,628
page on. And if you add cake to that, anybody that sends

1024
01:07:52,628 --> 01:07:58,388
going to be growing. And then of course, there's Sparrow and then there's Wasabi as well.

1025
01:07:59,748 --> 01:08:04,608
So it's low right now, but I think it's just because the technology was early. PayJoin is

1026
01:08:04,608 --> 01:08:10,988
really complicated. It's not that simple. And of course, the other big one is silent payments.

1027
01:08:12,208 --> 01:08:16,948
I'm insanely bullish on silent payments. When Sparrow introduced it, people were like,

1028
01:08:17,028 --> 01:08:21,568
oh, well, it doesn't really do much. It doesn't solve chain analysis. Yeah, it solves the address

1029
01:08:21,568 --> 01:08:23,508
reuse problem and

1030
01:08:23,508 --> 01:08:25,228
address reuse is

1031
01:08:25,228 --> 01:08:27,628
the number one cause of Bitcoin privacy

1032
01:08:27,628 --> 01:08:29,308
issues because so many

1033
01:08:29,308 --> 01:08:31,088
people reuse addresses

1034
01:08:31,088 --> 01:08:33,468
that kind of like

1035
01:08:33,468 --> 01:08:35,148
the chain analysis companies can cluster

1036
01:08:35,148 --> 01:08:37,028
a bunch of entities because

1037
01:08:37,028 --> 01:08:39,548
if a lot of people are really bad

1038
01:08:39,548 --> 01:08:41,648
at their privacy, like you

1039
01:08:41,648 --> 01:08:43,608
who are good at your privacy, you stand out

1040
01:08:43,608 --> 01:08:44,608
essentially.

1041
01:08:45,468 --> 01:08:47,388
So other people

1042
01:08:47,388 --> 01:08:49,548
reusing addresses is bad for them, but it's also

1043
01:08:49,548 --> 01:08:50,288
bad for us.

1044
01:08:50,288 --> 01:08:54,188
and part of the reason why people reuse addresses

1045
01:08:54,188 --> 01:08:57,488
is because we like to have a reusable payment code.

1046
01:08:58,128 --> 01:08:58,868
You don't want to have to,

1047
01:08:59,008 --> 01:09:01,108
let's say for your mining pool rewards,

1048
01:09:01,288 --> 01:09:01,908
you don't want to be,

1049
01:09:02,368 --> 01:09:03,068
every time you get a payout,

1050
01:09:03,128 --> 01:09:05,748
you don't want to be putting a new address or something

1051
01:09:05,748 --> 01:09:07,748
or if you're DCAing or something,

1052
01:09:07,848 --> 01:09:08,988
you don't want to have to put a new address

1053
01:09:08,988 --> 01:09:10,788
or there's tons of reason if you have a donation,

1054
01:09:11,588 --> 01:09:22,824
the Pirate Bay on their website has a static Bitcoin Everybody that using a donation address puts a static donation address So silent payment really solves that And that something that we been working on There was a pull request that was just opened today

1055
01:09:22,924 --> 01:09:30,324
Finally, after one year of R&D, we actually literally opened the silent payments pull request in the bull wallet this morning.

1056
01:09:30,804 --> 01:09:33,344
And we're also bringing it to the exchange as well.

1057
01:09:33,444 --> 01:09:38,424
So that, again, like the user of the bull wallet would only give one address to bull forever.

1058
01:09:39,044 --> 01:09:40,244
It's going to be a silent payment address,

1059
01:09:40,384 --> 01:09:42,584
and we will just generate new addresses on the fly.

1060
01:09:44,644 --> 01:09:46,744
So there are tools, and there are technologies.

1061
01:09:46,984 --> 01:09:48,944
There's Liquid, there's eCash,

1062
01:09:49,064 --> 01:09:51,864
which is a bigger rabbit hole to talk about,

1063
01:09:52,024 --> 01:09:55,744
but Liquid, Swaps, Lightning, PayJoin, SilentPayments.

1064
01:09:56,184 --> 01:09:58,284
There's other experimental technologies.

1065
01:09:58,284 --> 01:10:00,524
There's another one that I'm looking at now

1066
01:10:00,524 --> 01:10:02,544
called OctoJoin by this guy called Floppy.

1067
01:10:03,164 --> 01:10:05,624
Very interesting transactional tool.

1068
01:10:06,884 --> 01:10:08,144
And people are building awesome software.

1069
01:10:08,144 --> 01:10:30,224
That's also one of the really nice effects of Vibe coding and the AI software revolution is that it reduces the asymmetry of power between the state and the individual because the state has enormous power for surveillance.

1070
01:10:31,424 --> 01:10:37,944
And we as individuals, we don't have like 7,000 engineers and a data center to protect ourselves.

1071
01:10:38,144 --> 01:10:39,384
like the NSA has, you know?

1072
01:10:39,764 --> 01:10:41,704
But now that we have Vibe coding,

1073
01:10:41,924 --> 01:10:45,884
we can build self-defense tools very cheaply.

1074
01:10:46,344 --> 01:10:48,844
So one of the best examples that I know is this,

1075
01:10:48,844 --> 01:10:52,484
these guys, they have something called Am I Exposed?

1076
01:10:52,944 --> 01:10:54,924
And it's an open source chain analysis

1077
01:10:54,924 --> 01:10:56,724
that you can run yourself

1078
01:10:56,724 --> 01:10:59,404
and you can see what the chain analysis companies

1079
01:10:59,404 --> 01:11:01,344
know about you by replicating.

1080
01:11:01,944 --> 01:11:04,244
And of course, if you look at the software repository,

1081
01:11:04,924 --> 01:11:06,784
it's not slop, it's pretty cool,

1082
01:11:06,784 --> 01:11:08,704
but you can tell like this is white coded stuff.

1083
01:11:08,804 --> 01:11:09,184
You know what I mean?

1084
01:11:09,184 --> 01:11:10,224
Like the,

1085
01:11:10,324 --> 01:11:10,724
the,

1086
01:11:10,804 --> 01:11:13,324
the capital required to build this kind of software,

1087
01:11:13,324 --> 01:11:14,964
like five years ago,

1088
01:11:14,964 --> 01:11:16,204
this would have been like a $5 million,

1089
01:11:16,804 --> 01:11:17,844
you know,

1090
01:11:18,424 --> 01:11:20,284
VC race to build this kind of software.

1091
01:11:20,544 --> 01:11:21,104
I need,

1092
01:11:21,184 --> 01:11:21,384
you know,

1093
01:11:21,384 --> 01:11:22,464
you need a runway for like three,

1094
01:11:22,544 --> 01:11:23,624
four years with like,

1095
01:11:23,624 --> 01:11:24,084
you know,

1096
01:11:24,144 --> 01:11:24,324
seven,

1097
01:11:24,404 --> 01:11:25,544
eight engineers and like,

1098
01:11:25,864 --> 01:11:26,244
you know,

1099
01:11:26,324 --> 01:11:27,664
a product manager and that kind of stuff.

1100
01:11:27,844 --> 01:11:29,264
Now you can just build these tools yourself.

1101
01:11:30,184 --> 01:11:30,504
So,

1102
01:11:30,744 --> 01:11:31,464
so yeah,

1103
01:11:31,464 --> 01:11:31,984
I'm pretty excited.

1104
01:11:32,084 --> 01:11:36,124
Like even the stuff that we've been doing with the wallet,

1105
01:11:36,124 --> 01:11:36,564
like,

1106
01:11:36,564 --> 01:11:40,184
Of course, as a wallet developer, you can't Vibecode a wallet.

1107
01:11:40,564 --> 01:11:41,764
That's asking for trouble.

1108
01:11:42,244 --> 01:11:45,804
But you can do a lot of testing and you can save a lot of time.

1109
01:11:46,044 --> 01:11:49,104
So the pace of progress that we have at Cypherpunks,

1110
01:11:49,824 --> 01:11:52,804
and again, you can't do slop with cryptography.

1111
01:11:52,984 --> 01:11:53,604
It's very dangerous.

1112
01:11:53,824 --> 01:11:59,744
But it is 100% true that we are accelerating way faster than the state,

1113
01:12:00,104 --> 01:12:00,884
than the bureaucrats.

1114
01:12:01,684 --> 01:12:06,004
So I'm very bullish on that because it's kind of like...

1115
01:12:06,564 --> 01:12:12,584
you know, drone tech or, um, you know, 3d printing or, you know, look at 3d printing now,

1116
01:12:12,604 --> 01:12:18,184
like it's fucking insane what you can do with 3d printing. Uh, look at, so, you know, right now,

1117
01:12:18,184 --> 01:12:22,424
I think we're still at the liberator level of, uh, AI, you know, like the first 3d printed gun,

1118
01:12:22,584 --> 01:12:29,124
but in two years, I mean, sovereign individuals are going to be able to do a lot of damage,

1119
01:12:29,184 --> 01:12:33,664
so to speak, like, you know, metaphorical damage. Um, anyway, I'm, I'm kind of rambling,

1120
01:12:33,664 --> 01:12:54,204
But I'm not bearish on the state of the cypherpunk movement, even though I am very concerned, for sure, because I'm probably less concerned than a lot of people, but I'm probably more accurately concerned than a lot of people because being inside the industry as a regulated entity, I can see the tag vectors.

1121
01:12:54,864 --> 01:13:00,964
I'm not as concerned because I also know that there's methods of resistance that are being employed.

1122
01:13:00,964 --> 01:13:04,944
so I am worried

1123
01:13:04,944 --> 01:13:07,104
but I'm also bullish

1124
01:13:07,104 --> 01:13:09,084
I'm also bullish on the cypherpunk principles

1125
01:13:09,084 --> 01:13:09,604
of Bitcoin

1126
01:13:09,604 --> 01:13:12,864
a lot of people are blackpilled about like

1127
01:13:12,864 --> 01:13:14,444
Sailor and BlackRock and whatever

1128
01:13:14,444 --> 01:13:16,764
Bitcoin has been co-opted

1129
01:13:16,764 --> 01:13:19,144
and whatnot like the cypherpunk dream is dead

1130
01:13:19,144 --> 01:13:19,784
and blah blah blah

1131
01:13:19,784 --> 01:13:23,044
and that's just because the ratio of

1132
01:13:23,044 --> 01:13:24,744
noise to signal

1133
01:13:24,744 --> 01:13:25,744
is like higher

1134
01:13:25,744 --> 01:13:28,544
the ratio of noise to signal is higher

1135
01:13:28,544 --> 01:13:30,764
because the absolute amount of

1136
01:13:30,964 --> 01:13:36,724
like garbage slop in Bitcoin, like NGU, Bitcoin Treasury Company,

1137
01:13:37,784 --> 01:13:39,864
Wall Street financialization of Bitcoin,

1138
01:13:40,084 --> 01:13:44,164
is increasing more than the cypherpunk base.

1139
01:13:45,004 --> 01:13:51,084
So the institutional narrative and the anti-cypherpunk narrative of Bitcoin

1140
01:13:51,084 --> 01:13:52,784
is increasing faster than the cypherpunk.

1141
01:13:52,944 --> 01:13:53,744
But who cares?

1142
01:13:54,004 --> 01:13:57,964
What matters is the absolute amount of cypherpunks working on Bitcoin.

1143
01:13:57,964 --> 01:14:01,264
I don't care about the ratio of cypherpunk to non-cypherpunk in Bitcoin.

1144
01:14:01,364 --> 01:14:01,944
I don't care about that.

1145
01:14:02,044 --> 01:14:04,944
I care about the absolute number of cypherpunks in Bitcoin.

1146
01:14:05,824 --> 01:14:21,964
And being in this space, and of course, there are like Signal chat groups and, you know, Telegram groups where I talk with a lot of privacy devs and we meet in person at conferences and we work on technology collectively.

1147
01:14:22,904 --> 01:14:26,664
And I've never been so stoked, by the way, like all the wallet developers are.

1148
01:14:26,664 --> 01:14:29,284
I mean, I wouldn't say we're all friends, but a lot of us are friends.

1149
01:14:29,384 --> 01:14:32,764
I talk with the cake guys. I talked with the Sparrow guy about silent payments.

1150
01:14:32,884 --> 01:14:36,504
I talk with Breeze. I talk with these guys. We talk all the time.

1151
01:14:36,564 --> 01:14:41,244
I talk with Aqua. And most of us are on the same page

1152
01:14:41,244 --> 01:14:42,344
when it comes to privacy tech.

1153
01:14:43,344 --> 01:14:44,524
I love to hear that.

1154
01:14:47,584 --> 01:14:50,724
I'm happy you said that because I agree. There's a lot of blackpilling out there.

1155
01:14:50,724 --> 01:14:59,264
But similar to you, I mean, I don't have as much inside knowledge in terms of the attack.

1156
01:14:59,364 --> 01:15:02,024
I think I understand them pretty well, but you see it day in and day out.

1157
01:15:02,244 --> 01:15:03,884
And obviously you're talking to these wallet developers.

1158
01:15:04,004 --> 01:15:05,744
I talk to a lot of the privacy tech people too.

1159
01:15:05,924 --> 01:15:10,524
But just again, to reiterate, the vibe coding unlock is real.

1160
01:15:11,804 --> 01:15:15,844
And when it comes to blackpilling, yes, the noise is way louder.

1161
01:15:16,024 --> 01:15:19,764
And yes, you may not agree with what Michael Saylor is doing.

1162
01:15:19,764 --> 01:15:21,424
you may think it's going to end in cataclysm.

1163
01:15:21,504 --> 01:15:22,744
It doesn't matter if you can run a node,

1164
01:15:22,824 --> 01:15:24,704
if you can create a private public key pair,

1165
01:15:24,804 --> 01:15:26,324
if you can use tools like PayJoin,

1166
01:15:26,404 --> 01:15:27,244
Silent Payments,

1167
01:15:27,424 --> 01:15:30,764
and use Bitcoin the way in which you want to,

1168
01:15:30,844 --> 01:15:34,224
which I hope is in a sovereign and private fashion.

1169
01:15:34,364 --> 01:15:35,184
It's never been easier.

1170
01:15:35,364 --> 01:15:36,384
It's only going to get easier.

1171
01:15:36,384 --> 01:15:38,144
It has never been this easy.

1172
01:15:38,504 --> 01:15:40,924
And people who said that Bitcoin was better 10 years ago,

1173
01:15:41,004 --> 01:15:41,484
shut the fuck up.

1174
01:15:41,504 --> 01:15:42,544
You have no idea what you're talking about.

1175
01:15:42,904 --> 01:15:43,884
No idea whatsoever.

1176
01:15:44,744 --> 01:15:46,704
Running a node, like, dude, like,

1177
01:15:47,124 --> 01:15:49,524
I have my, right here.

1178
01:15:49,524 --> 01:15:55,384
Well, you know, I don't want to dox my location, so I'm not going to turn my camera, but I have my start nine right here next to my Starlink.

1179
01:15:57,464 --> 01:16:11,024
Just like connect, connecting a self custodial wallet to your own Electrum using silent payments and pay join on your phone, doing swaps like like it's nothing like you can do that like with a few clicks.

1180
01:16:11,024 --> 01:16:14,784
Like people have absolutely no idea how bad it was like 10 years ago.

1181
01:16:14,784 --> 01:16:26,064
So, and, you know, everybody that says that Bitcoin is, that it's not advancing or it's not progressing or that the cypherpunk dream is dead is selling you something.

1182
01:16:28,004 --> 01:16:33,784
They could be just uneducated, but I think most of them know, but they're selling you something else.

1183
01:16:34,444 --> 01:16:39,904
They're selling you either a shitcoin or a financial product, basically.

1184
01:16:39,904 --> 01:16:43,364
Zcash. Zcash. Get the Zcash. Bitcoin's dead. Get the Zcash.

1185
01:16:43,364 --> 01:16:59,824
Of course. And like, for example, you know, self-custody. So there's there's like, you know, two major components to making Bitcoin better. It's privacy and self-custody. Right. And of course, you can't have privacy without self-custody by definition. So.

1186
01:16:59,824 --> 01:17:03,444
So that's why we work so much on self-custody.

1187
01:17:03,564 --> 01:17:04,964
I see it as the foundation of everything else.

1188
01:17:05,964 --> 01:17:09,544
Every property that makes Bitcoin valuable as money,

1189
01:17:10,344 --> 01:17:12,324
so the things that are on the sales pitch,

1190
01:17:12,644 --> 01:17:14,704
when you sell Bitcoin, censorship resistance,

1191
01:17:15,084 --> 01:17:17,264
it's this, it's that, you can't change the rules,

1192
01:17:18,044 --> 01:17:21,784
it's immutable, it's trustless, it's private.

1193
01:17:21,784 --> 01:17:24,064
All of these features of Bitcoin

1194
01:17:24,064 --> 01:17:26,244
that are on Michael Ciro's pitch deck

1195
01:17:26,244 --> 01:17:30,064
stem from the fact that you can self-custody it.

1196
01:17:30,184 --> 01:17:31,164
If you can't self-custody it,

1197
01:17:31,184 --> 01:17:33,524
then all those features kind of like disappear.

1198
01:17:33,824 --> 01:17:36,464
And the second one, the second layer is privacy.

1199
01:17:36,824 --> 01:17:39,824
And like, there are problems with self-custody,

1200
01:17:40,044 --> 01:17:41,884
but there's a lot of entrepreneurs.

1201
01:17:43,744 --> 01:17:45,304
You know, back in the day, you know,

1202
01:17:45,384 --> 01:17:59,300
there a certain type of individual which is again today liberated with AI because they can do stuff now that they couldn before but when you see a problem I see a business and I see

1203
01:17:59,300 --> 01:18:01,780
I see a marketing campaign

1204
01:18:01,780 --> 01:18:03,780
I see

1205
01:18:03,780 --> 01:18:05,260
a new feature

1206
01:18:05,260 --> 01:18:07,440
and I see a new market

1207
01:18:07,440 --> 01:18:09,640
that's what I see when I see a problem

1208
01:18:09,640 --> 01:18:11,560
and I'm not the only one like there's tons of people

1209
01:18:11,560 --> 01:18:13,700
that are like call it

1210
01:18:13,700 --> 01:18:14,860
cypherpunk entrepreneurs

1211
01:18:14,860 --> 01:18:17,560
so of course

1212
01:18:17,560 --> 01:18:21,400
self-custody is a massive problem

1213
01:18:21,400 --> 01:18:23,160
we've built tools for example

1214
01:18:23,160 --> 01:18:25,660
the main thing that I think

1215
01:18:25,660 --> 01:18:27,880
that I'm the most proud of

1216
01:18:27,880 --> 01:18:29,740
in the last couple of years

1217
01:18:29,740 --> 01:18:31,740
is our backup protocol called

1218
01:18:31,740 --> 01:18:32,240
Recoverable

1219
01:18:32,240 --> 01:18:33,680
it's not fancy

1220
01:18:33,680 --> 01:18:36,060
it's not really well known out there

1221
01:18:36,060 --> 01:18:38,460
but it's a very clever way

1222
01:18:38,460 --> 01:18:40,100
to create

1223
01:18:40,100 --> 01:18:41,560
an encrypted backup

1224
01:18:41,560 --> 01:18:44,060
that is safe for the cloud

1225
01:18:44,060 --> 01:18:45,960
using a key server protocol.

1226
01:18:46,040 --> 01:18:47,700
Anyway, so it's this tool in the Bull wallet

1227
01:18:47,700 --> 01:18:51,220
where you can do a backup in like 30 seconds

1228
01:18:51,220 --> 01:18:53,260
and it's very secure.

1229
01:18:53,400 --> 01:18:54,200
It's very, very secure.

1230
01:18:54,380 --> 01:18:57,920
It's not as secure as like 12 seed in a plate,

1231
01:18:57,920 --> 01:19:02,460
but it makes self-custody like extremely, extremely simple.

1232
01:19:03,240 --> 01:19:04,840
Kind of like the stuff that we did with,

1233
01:19:05,900 --> 01:19:08,660
you know, one of the things that Aqua and Bull

1234
01:19:08,660 --> 01:19:10,760
came up with this at the same time, by the way,

1235
01:19:10,960 --> 01:19:11,880
none of us were first.

1236
01:19:11,880 --> 01:19:13,700
it's actually a

1237
01:19:13,700 --> 01:19:15,960
I think I was first but

1238
01:19:15,960 --> 01:19:17,560
Aqua also thinks they were first

1239
01:19:17,560 --> 01:19:19,1000
I agree to disagree but Aqua and Bull

1240
01:19:19,1000 --> 01:19:21,860
came up with the same idea at the same time

1241
01:19:21,860 --> 01:19:24,020
which was

1242
01:19:24,020 --> 01:19:26,020
I think a consequence of the

1243
01:19:26,020 --> 01:19:27,480
first spam attack in 2023

1244
01:19:27,480 --> 01:19:29,540
where we realized that

1245
01:19:29,540 --> 01:19:31,700
you know a

1246
01:19:31,700 --> 01:19:33,880
mobile wallet where you manage channels

1247
01:19:33,880 --> 01:19:36,060
on your phone kind of like

1248
01:19:36,060 --> 01:19:37,580
Phoenix does not work if

1249
01:19:37,580 --> 01:19:39,740
the network fees are 150

1250
01:19:39,740 --> 01:19:40,560
Satoshis per byte

1251
01:19:40,560 --> 01:19:45,120
it just doesn't work because you need to open too many channels and it locks up too much liquidity

1252
01:19:45,120 --> 01:19:50,640
anyway um so that idea of like having what's called a graduated wallet so bull and aqua were

1253
01:19:50,640 --> 01:19:56,680
the first two graduated wallets and that's like where you have like a liquid or e-cash or

1254
01:19:56,680 --> 01:20:03,780
fediment or i don't know like a spark or something and it's using swaps to communicate with the

1255
01:20:03,780 --> 01:20:08,340
lightning network um so i'm really proud of those tools and then of course there's multiple other

1256
01:20:08,340 --> 01:20:14,360
things that we need to work on, like inheritance. Inheritance is the next big step to solving

1257
01:20:14,360 --> 01:20:18,980
self-custody. But again, these are problems that are being worked on. So if someone is selling you,

1258
01:20:19,680 --> 01:20:23,160
because the people who are selling you away from Cypherpunk Bitcoin, they're selling you,

1259
01:20:23,500 --> 01:20:29,440
it's not private, so use Zcash. And you can't self-custody your coins. It's not safe for you

1260
01:20:29,440 --> 01:20:36,720
to do that. You're not ready to do that. So buy my stonk. So I want to make sure that these people

1261
01:20:36,720 --> 01:20:41,720
run out of arguments. And also the argument like, well, you can't spend your Bitcoin anywhere. We've

1262
01:20:41,720 --> 01:20:47,060
solved that too. That was like one of the first things that I tried to solve when I was starting

1263
01:20:47,060 --> 01:20:51,980
out as an entrepreneur in 2013. Where can you spend your Bitcoin? Well, that's why we started

1264
01:20:51,980 --> 01:20:56,680
Bills, which then became BullBitcoin. That's already been solved with companies like BitRefill,

1265
01:20:56,800 --> 01:21:01,640
like Bitcoin Jungle, all these things. You can spend your Bitcoin. This is not a serious argument.

1266
01:21:01,640 --> 01:21:08,980
And, you know, with, of course, with Square in the United States, like, you can't have a serious debate with someone who's like, well, you can't spend your Bitcoin.

1267
01:21:09,100 --> 01:21:09,920
Shut the fuck up, man.

1268
01:21:09,980 --> 01:21:10,900
There's like, look at this map.

1269
01:21:11,300 --> 01:21:13,180
Like, I can buy Bitcoin.

1270
01:21:13,180 --> 01:21:17,320
We can walk down the street in any American city right now.

1271
01:21:17,960 --> 01:21:24,580
And I will probably find within a few minutes a shop that accepts Bitcoin because of the work of the cypherpunks.

1272
01:21:24,900 --> 01:21:29,440
Like, you know, I wouldn't say that Square is necessarily cypherpunk, but, you know, close enough.

1273
01:21:29,440 --> 01:21:41,900
Like they're, they're, they're, they're pretty good in terms of, of, uh, of doing things the right way within their, you know, they have a different box cause they're, you know, publicly traded company and it's a massive, you know, global empire now.

1274
01:21:42,220 --> 01:21:43,720
Um, but they've done it pretty well.

1275
01:21:43,800 --> 01:21:47,380
So anyway, just a lot of words to say that I'm very bullish.

1276
01:21:47,520 --> 01:21:47,860
That's it.

1277
01:21:48,340 --> 01:21:49,220
I am as well.

1278
01:21:49,980 --> 01:21:58,620
Um, as it pertains to DACA, the legal battles and, and honestly, all the cypherpunk tech that we've been talking about for the last.

1279
01:21:59,440 --> 01:22:03,720
portion of this conversation. What calls to action do you have for anybody out there?

1280
01:22:03,960 --> 01:22:05,480
How can we help on the legal front?

1281
01:22:06,480 --> 01:22:16,060
Well, by the time this episode is released, we have a website called DAC8.com. I did buy the

1282
01:22:16,060 --> 01:22:23,240
domain just to rub it in their face. So DAC8.com is a website which basically shows all the arguments

1283
01:22:23,240 --> 01:22:28,640
for repealing DACA8 and explains our legal strategy.

1284
01:22:29,080 --> 01:22:33,120
So I would say go on DACA8.com and educate yourself about what that is.

1285
01:22:33,620 --> 01:22:35,860
I don't really have that much of a call to action

1286
01:22:35,860 --> 01:22:38,580
because when we decided to fight this legally,

1287
01:22:39,340 --> 01:22:43,180
we decided not to do an industry group and not to do a crowdfund

1288
01:22:43,180 --> 01:22:45,140
and not to do a big thing.

1289
01:22:45,440 --> 01:22:47,880
Just because of the overhead of doing those things,

1290
01:22:47,880 --> 01:22:50,480
we're just like, fuck it, we're going to pay the lawyers ourselves

1291
01:22:50,480 --> 01:22:51,600
and we're going to do it ourselves.

1292
01:22:51,600 --> 01:22:58,220
So we don't have a donation page and we don't really have any real way for people to help us.

1293
01:22:59,020 --> 01:23:08,920
We have one partner in this lawsuit, which is another crypto exchange in France, the only other crypto company that I talked to that was willing or had the balls to do it.

1294
01:23:09,540 --> 01:23:14,660
So there's no donation page. There's no sign up. There's no newsletter. Unfortunately, I wish I had a better CTA.

1295
01:23:14,660 --> 01:23:17,420
I would just say, just use the wallet.

1296
01:23:17,880 --> 01:23:18,840
Just use the bull wallet.

1297
01:23:19,100 --> 01:23:20,060
That makes me happy.

1298
01:23:20,640 --> 01:23:23,360
And leave a nice review on the Play Store.

1299
01:23:24,760 --> 01:23:27,100
That's the best thing you can do for me

1300
01:23:27,100 --> 01:23:28,600
is to leave a nice review on the Play Store

1301
01:23:28,600 --> 01:23:30,680
or on the website because I read all of them

1302
01:23:30,680 --> 01:23:32,600
and it just makes it...

1303
01:23:32,600 --> 01:23:35,440
It boosts the morale of the bull team.

1304
01:23:35,820 --> 01:23:36,800
It really, really does.

1305
01:23:36,920 --> 01:23:38,220
We actually do read all the reviews.

1306
01:23:38,440 --> 01:23:38,980
So just do that.

1307
01:23:39,100 --> 01:23:40,400
Download the wallet and leave us a review

1308
01:23:40,400 --> 01:23:42,360
and you can say that you've contributed

1309
01:23:42,360 --> 01:23:43,200
to our mission that way.

1310
01:23:43,200 --> 01:23:47,320
we'll link to that in the show notes so you can go download and use it

1311
01:23:47,320 --> 01:23:49,440
highly recommend it Francis

1312
01:23:49,440 --> 01:23:54,320
there's not many of you out there and there's only one of you

1313
01:23:54,320 --> 01:23:58,620
out there there's only one of you out there and I'm very glad that you exist because I think

1314
01:23:58,620 --> 01:24:02,680
what you're doing what you have done for over a decade now at this point has been

1315
01:24:02,680 --> 01:24:06,380
extremely impactful for Bitcoin and very important for

1316
01:24:06,380 --> 01:24:10,400
the ability of individuals to use Bitcoin in a

1317
01:24:10,400 --> 01:24:12,320
sovereign fashion and

1318
01:24:13,200 --> 01:24:21,460
Particularly in this era of Bitcoin, a lot of what you do is overshadowed by the orange ties and the suits.

1319
01:24:21,800 --> 01:24:28,220
And I think it's important to remind people that the cypherpunk dream of Bitcoin is nowhere near dead.

1320
01:24:28,300 --> 01:24:31,740
In fact, it's more alive than ever because of people like you.

1321
01:24:31,740 --> 01:24:37,060
So I just honestly, earnestly thank you for all the work and the commitment that you put into this.

1322
01:24:37,080 --> 01:24:38,680
Well, I appreciate that you appreciate.

1323
01:24:38,680 --> 01:24:41,940
and it's a nice space to be in

1324
01:24:41,940 --> 01:24:43,820
because even though it's really hard to do what we do

1325
01:24:43,820 --> 01:24:47,320
the community which exists

1326
01:24:47,320 --> 01:24:48,960
there is such a thing as a Bitcoin community

1327
01:24:48,960 --> 01:24:51,740
people who say that the Bitcoin community is not real are stupid

1328
01:24:51,740 --> 01:24:55,800
the community is very supportive of what we do

1329
01:24:55,800 --> 01:24:58,260
and we really appreciate that

1330
01:24:58,260 --> 01:25:00,200
we appreciate that people appreciate

1331
01:25:00,200 --> 01:25:02,180
and that's what we feed on

1332
01:25:02,180 --> 01:25:06,760
so it's a great space to be building it

1333
01:25:06,760 --> 01:25:10,820
It's hard, but there's nothing else on earth that I would rather do.

1334
01:25:11,120 --> 01:25:17,380
So thanks to the viewers, everybody that comments on Twitter and everybody that says good things about us online.

1335
01:25:19,120 --> 01:25:22,380
We really highly appreciate that and makes it all worth it.

1336
01:25:22,700 --> 01:25:23,060
Thanks, guys.

1337
01:25:24,080 --> 01:25:25,040
All right. Peace and love, Freaks.

1338
01:25:25,280 --> 01:25:25,900
All right.

1339
01:25:26,160 --> 01:25:28,120
Thank you for listening to this episode of TFTC.

1340
01:25:28,580 --> 01:25:32,180
If you've made it this far, I imagine you got some value out of the episode.

1341
01:25:32,540 --> 01:25:36,560
If so, please share it far and wide with your friends and family.

1342
01:25:36,560 --> 01:25:50,840
We're looking to get the word out there. Also, wherever you're listening, whether that's YouTube, Apple, Spotify, make sure you like and subscribe to the show. And if you can leave a rating on the podcasting platforms, that goes a long way.

1343
01:25:50,840 --> 01:25:58,920
Last but not least, if you want to get these episodes a day early and ad-free, make sure you download the Fountain podcasting app.

1344
01:25:59,420 --> 01:26:01,680
You can go to fountain.fm to find that.

1345
01:26:02,420 --> 01:26:06,160
$5 a month gets you every episode a day early, ad-free.

1346
01:26:06,960 --> 01:26:07,740
Helps the show.

1347
01:26:08,140 --> 01:26:09,240
Gives you incredible value.

1348
01:26:10,200 --> 01:26:13,480
So please consider subscribing via Fountain as well.

1349
01:26:14,060 --> 01:26:14,960
Thank you for your time.

1350
01:26:15,440 --> 01:26:16,340
And until next time.

1351
01:26:16,980 --> 01:26:17,200
Okay.

1352
01:26:20,840 --> 01:26:50,820
Thank you.