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You've had a dynamic where money has become freer than free.

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You talk about a Fed just gone nuts.

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All the central banks going nuts.

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So it's all acting like safe haven.

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I believe that in a world where central bankers are tripping over themselves to devalue their

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currency, Bitcoin wins.

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In the world of fiat currencies, Bitcoin is the victor.

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I mean, that's part of the bull case for Bitcoin.

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If you're not paying attention, you probably should be.

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Mr. Corralo, it's going to be nine years in October since you first came on this show.

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Crazy.

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Wow.

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Crazy to think.

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Almost a decade of recording with Matt Corralo.

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Yeah, that's crazy.

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How things have changed?

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A little bit.

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I mean, you know, a lot changes and people always predict the future to be drastically different.

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And a lot of things change, but most things just end up staying the same.

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You don't really think about that.

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So you're a big fan of nothing ever happens.

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Some things happen, but it's a lot rarer than people think.

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We were talking about how to set up this conversation because I think things are changing in the world of...

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software engineering programming.

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Been a running theme over the last couple of months.

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I've had Justin Moon on talking about vibe coding,

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what it means for Freedom Tech.

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Mark Suman from Maple AI talking about running these models

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in a freedom-oriented, sovereign, and private way.

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And then Calais talking about what he's been doing with BitChat.

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cash you um in clawy.ai to really accelerate his programming efforts and i think uh that's a good

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jumping off point because i think callie i forget it was you who sent the first tweet or callie

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who responded to it or vice versa but there was a little back and forth between the two of you

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highlighting the fact that the progression of these ai tools has gotten to a point where

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there's no excuses for bitcoiners to go out there and win the digital currency game um it won't be

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a lack it won't be because bitcoin lacks anything will be because if bitcoin doesn't succeed the way

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we believe it can it will be because people don't have the willpower in the agency to make it so

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and i thought that was very interesting back and forth actually wrote about it talked about it um

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and i've been thinking about that for the last few weeks since you you and cali had that exchange

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yeah i i think that's really true i mean i think there's two big changes uh that are coming

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with these technology or that are here and coming soon with this technology that i think make a big

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difference uh and give us a really unique opportunity that's unique in bitcoin's history

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so first of all you know you mentioned just these tools are good now at at development at building

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software applications um that wasn't true six months ago that was only that was not really true

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three months ago um literally when the latest generation of models uh cloud three five now

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cloud three six uh the latest codecs came out did they go from you know you still kind of have to

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know how to code or you can do a good demo with these things to you can build something really

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awesome with these things without ever looking at the code or really materially thinking about the

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code um you know you're not going to build a full lightning node you're not going to build the next

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full node implementation they're not at a point where they can do things that are particularly

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complicated in that way and very easy to subtly screw up um but building things that are uh

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kind of easier to build or at least harder to subtly screw up.

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You know, front ends, good web applications,

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you know, good apps on your phone, whatever,

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these kinds of things, they can just build it

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and you don't really have to think too much about it.

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So that's one thing.

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And I think that enables the entire Bitcoin community.

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The Bitcoin community has always been excited to try things.

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It's a lot of early adopters.

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and excited to, you know, it's kind of a,

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there are tons of Bitcoiners building tons of different things,

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trying tons of different things and hoping that one works.

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And I think that's a really great model to get the kind of adoption we want.

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Just having one company building the Bitcoin payments platform

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is less likely to succeed than everyone going out and building.

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But Bitcoiners have to step up and actually do it now.

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The tools are there. You don't have to know how to code. You just have to know how to type. Actually, you don't even have to know that. You need to know how to formulate a thought and have a concept of what you want built. But then from there, it's just a matter of doing it and executing. So on a Saturday and some free time, Bitcoiners have to step up and do it. And I think that's really huge.

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I think the other thing that gives us unique opportunity is that everyone is starting from zero on agentic payments.

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So I think, you know, going forward a number of months to multiple years, but a number of months, really, people are going to start using these tools to buy things.

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um and this isn't you know whether you think ai is like you know asi and like super intelligence

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is coming soon or whether you think it's you know just a sycophant that uh repeats what you tell it

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and and doesn't really add all that much no matter what you think the reality is that these tools are

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very capable of just saying like hey i need to up my beef tap running low on beef tallow can you

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shoot me some more and it can go off and do it and you don't have to think about it right um and so

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i think that's going to be a genuinely non-trivial part of total consumer spend uh in the world in not

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very long not tomorrow but in a few months people are going to start building out all these tools

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and start having all these tools and then in some number of years they're going to be very popular

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for for buying things um but none of the existing payment flows work for this so you can't visa is

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not really gonna work here so for multiple reasons first of all most websites that uh

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offer things for sale with credit cards are anti-botted to fuck like they have captchas

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they detect bots they try to prevent bots because that's how that's part of how they fight fraud

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and they're responsible for fraud because of chargebacks and the way Visa and MasterCard are

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structured. And so that's, they're not, you can't use these existing websites to buy things if you're

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an agent, if you're, if you are a bot. And so they need to build something new. They need to

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restructure the way chargebacks work. So it's not just Visa, it's a whole new Visa, what do they

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call it intelligent commerce platform um and on the flip side the stablecoin people are trying to

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push stablecoins but that also similarly you know there's no merchants who support stablecoins yet

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you know that's a whole new integration point for merchants so everyone's starting at zero

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you know for all of bitcoin's life bitcoin payments certainly weren't really 10x better than

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whatever people had access to you know there's things where bitcoin was 10x better maybe it's

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10x better at savings maybe it's 10x better at some cross-border uh setups maybe it's 10x better

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at settlement whatever but it certainly wasn't 10x better at just domestic payments um and so

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you know you struggle to get over the line right the the classic adage in silicon valley is that

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users don't people don't switch from one product to another unless the other product that they're

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switching to is 10x better if it's a little better you know some people might try it but you won't

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get that kind of critical mass you won't get the switch especially for things that are very network

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uh effect dominated like payments for agentic payments everyone's starting from zero and so

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we have a shot to actually build something that people use like the race is starting now

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uh there's three or four or five different competing standards now being pushed by various

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payment companies ai labs whatever um and we need to be a part of that fight uh we might not win

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but if we stay in that race we will get from fairly low to really material merchant adoption

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bitcoin will be a actually usable option for payments yeah before we get into the landscape of

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when everybody's building competing protocols,

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not only with traditional payment networks

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like Visa, MasterCard, stable coins,

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but even within Bitcoin, that's something I've observed

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over the last month is all these development kits

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and different ways of equipping your agent

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with the ability to send and receive Bitcoin.

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Before that, what led you to,

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what was the tipping point for you to believe this?

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Was it observing what's happening

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or did you build something that you were like,

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oh wow it's it's here it's ready i mean i think it's to a large extent it's the jump in the quality

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of models in the last three months you know there's a lot of things for which they're still not

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they haven't really materially improved on in three or four years uh you know writing from

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scratch and they're great at critiquing writing writing new ideas from scratch not so much um but

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then there's some things where they went from being a useful tool to being actually genuinely

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good at like writing many types of applications like writing a lot of software um and so i think

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that plus plus the you know one of the big step functions has been kind of how long they how how

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well they can work on a task that has multiple steps and they have to to keep working at it to

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get to it um and it used to be that they would kind of collapse in on themselves fairly quickly

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and this this limited your ability to do things like build stuff like open claw or these agents

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that might be able to then go buy something right because this is like this multiple step you have

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to go find different merchants that offer these products you have to find compare the products

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you have to decide which one might be good and then you you might have to come back to the your

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the the human and say like hey here's a product i think it's good should i buy this um

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And they, you know, they might have struggled with that. And I think now they're they're very capable of that. And at the same time, there's so many different companies that have gone from kind of in the early stages of building to, OK, now it's serious. Now we're trying to really push our specific payment rails for these kinds of payments.

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And was there something that you were working on or just simply observing it?

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Mostly observing, yeah.

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Yeah.

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Okay, now let's get into the landscape of what's out there.

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Visa, I think it was Visa or MasterCard,

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earlier this week or late last week said,

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hey, a lot of people are thinking we're going to just bolt on

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a agentic payment protocol into what we're doing now,

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but we're starting this new thing.

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We're going to sort of equip them with agent-specific digital cards

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or whatever.

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obviously the stable coins uh are going after i think base created x402 uh which is funny it seems

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like people in bitcoin were ahead of this trend and seeing where this was going way before many

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others who are who are hopping onto it now which i think could play into our favor but i mean l402

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from roast beef and the lnd team's been out for many years now at this point i think three or four

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years basically seeing that this is going to be a thing you have many people talking about the idea

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of agents suspending up their own real world asset tokens to to conduct commerce with each other and

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it it to your point seems very chaotic right now the landscape for agentic payments doesn't seem

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like there is a uniform protocol that everybody has settled on that makes sense considering

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yeah there's more than that there's also you know google's got one stripe is both pushing

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the crypto angle but then also has their own other protocol that they did with open ai um so there's

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everybody's got a protocol for this um and and i don't think you know i i want to i think in kind

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of a traditional software world we think about this like ah there's so many protocols like one

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has to win people have to start adopting one i don't think that's really true for for ai like

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the things are good at writing code if you give it a protocol spec it can write code to interact

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with that protocol on the fly and use the protocol it doesn care what the specific protocol is What is going to impact what does have to be standardized

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is the actual payment rail.

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Are they using Lightning?

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Do you have to have Bitcoin?

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Do you have to have stable coins?

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Do you have to have a Visa card linked?

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Do you have to have...

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What is the process of getting funds into the system

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such that they can then flow within that system?

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um and so i think that's the the thing that is going to be not necessarily winner take all but

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certainly winner take most um and so that's where we really want you know we want open payment rails

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right if if there's a good shot right now i think that uh the payment rails that get used are either

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you know a stable coin a single stable coin right where there's one company that operates the

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blockchain they run on you know a centralized blockchain they run on right in like the case of

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base or stripe is now building this tempo thing um and also then gets all the interest from all

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the tokens that are being used for the commerce like you know coinbase for the case of usdc on

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base or circle if it's usdc elsewhere um and then once they have a monopoly presumably those prices

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will then continue to increase, right?

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If they have a monopoly on the payment rails

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and the payment token that's being used,

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they'll slowly increase their price over time

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because why wouldn't they?

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And so we want freedom tech there,

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not just both philosophically,

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but also for competitive reasons.

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We've suffered, especially in the US,

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outside the US a little less so,

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but we've suffered in the US

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from this visa tax on all of our commerce

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where whatever two two and a half percent of every transaction sometimes more sometimes less

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gets taken out of the merchant's hands and it really wrecks small businesses i mean that it's

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it's a huge it's a really material portion of their profit goes to the payment networks and

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if and like we have this opportunity where we like need new payment networks for these new types of

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payments and these new types of buyers and just rebuilding the existing monopoly kind of setup,

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whether it's using Visa's protocols or whether it's using a stable coin, a single stable coin,

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would just be such a loss for humanity in the country. And we would just, we'd lose out on so

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much that we could have. Yeah. I mean, and you're getting into like a first principles argument

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here. So let's steel man it and get into basically the first principle argument for why Bitcoin should

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be the medium of exchange for the agentic economy that seems to be emerging. Obviously, you mentioned

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the competitive landscape. And if a monopoly takes us over, they'll have pricing power,

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which will not be good for the end consumer or merchants that are leveraging these payment rails.

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But let's just strip it down to the base and build it up from there.

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Why is Bitcoin sort of suited for this use case particularly?

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Yeah, I mean, I think the network that gets built needs to, you know, I guess I don't think Bitcoin is like uniquely suited in a way that like Visa could not build something.

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that operates here. It can't be the existing Visa network. It has to have different rules around

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chargebacks. It has to have a different setup. It has to have different type of private keys,

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so it can't just be the same kind of card numbers they use today. They'll be issuing

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temporary debit cards. These are things they can build. They're hard. There's some regulatory

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questions around having a different chargeback system, but in theory, this is buildable.

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certainly Bitcoin isn't kind of fundamentally fated to win this over stable coins for some

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reason you know people don't hate stable coins stable coins on a centralized blockchain are

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efficient and cheap payments are fast just like Bitcoin I don't think you know I don't think any

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of these are kind of better or worse in terms of the fundamental properties that might enable them

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You know, Bitcoin on Lightning specifically, payments are cheap, payments are fast, currently cheaper and often faster than stablecoins on most stablecoin platforms.

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But that's something they can fix.

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They can centralize their blockchains more and have payments be faster and cheaper.

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And they are.

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I think Coinbase is moving that direction with base and tempo, I think, from Stripe will be even more centralized and even more of a central database just to make the payments cheap and fast.

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It's really just a question of who gets adoption first, right?

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So who gets merchants to start using their new protocol before the others do and gets payers and agents to start using their new protocol before the others do?

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And I think this is where the Bitcoin community has a real shot because all these other protocols are one company, maybe a partnership of two companies pushing their specific protocol because they want to be the winners and they want to be the ones who ultimately control the flow of how agentic commerce happens and make a ton of money on it by becoming the monopoly.

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whereas Bitcoiners are a ton of different companies and a ton of different people

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who all want to not become the monopoly and and give everyone and give merchants and buyers back

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their economic freedom and give them total control over the way they make and accept payments

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and that kind of network I think gives us a real shot that we have so many different people pushing

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in complementary directions, not necessarily the same direction, and trying from different

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angles and getting more merchants on board and all of that stuff in interesting ways.

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And I think that gives us a real competitive edge here.

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But for that to happen, we need Bitcoiners to really step up and participate, not necessarily

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just build stuff.

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Building stuff is important, but also get merchants on board, actually use these tools,

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right install open claw or clawy or whatever the you know newest hottest agent software is

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um and give it a bitcoin wallet and tell it to go buy your monthly beef tallow or whatever you

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whatever you need um and and see how far it gets and tell it to email merchants and tell it to say

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hey you know i i tried to use your site um i'm an ai agent i tried to use your site to buy this

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thing because i was told to and i couldn't please consider updating your site so that it doesn't

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have captchas and so that it takes bitcoin um and go you know i know the the uh nix laney's team

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at money dev kit has been building some cool stuff here they now have sites where your agent can buy

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coffee with bitcoin and can buy supplements with bitcoin and can buy various things um so they're

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trying to push into this world. They also offer merchant services, make it easy for merchants to

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integrate self-custodial Bitcoin payment acceptance. Obviously, a lot of merchants don't necessarily

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want that. They might want other integration. There's a ton of Bitcoin payment processors out

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there and crypto payment processors that they can integrate into their Shopify. So it's really about

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we have to get moving and we have to have Bitcoin as really pushing on this angle because if we

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don't then you know one of these monopolies can take over and we're going to be stuck with some

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new payment monopoly that's going to be equally shitty and take another huge chunk out of the

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economy and if we do then not only does bitcoin thrive uh and and have a ton of transactions to

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pay the miners and and get a more robust lightning network and and fund more development and and price

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probably goes up because everyone's buying bitcoin to transact in it but on top of that

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for humanity the money is the payment rails people use is free and open and anyone can participate and

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visa is not going to censor porn or gun shops or whatever um and also on top of that visa is not

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going to take this huge percentage bite out of the economy and and transactions are going to be

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cheaper and merchants are going to have more money in their pocket what's up freaks up next the

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00:22:40,438 --> 00:22:45,178
The Bitcoin Scaling Conference, where Bitcoin developers meet institutional capital, is coming to New York next month.

249
00:22:45,298 --> 00:22:51,717
Join Bitcoiners from Blockstream, Chaincode, Brink, and more at the Can't Miss Summit at the intersection of Bitcoin tech and finance.

250
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This conference has one of the best signal-to-noise ratios, and that's why I'll be joining BlockSpace's third annual Bitcoin tech conference on April 16th at the New York Times Center in Midtown Manhattan.

251
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There's only room for 200 attendees, and they've already sold more than 100 tickets of their open spots.

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So you've only got a few weeks to get your travel plans in order for New York.

253
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With a ticket, you get access to the best programming in Bitcoin tech from BitVM to BitChat, catered lunch, and access to the PubKey afterparty.

254
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We're in the hat, PubKey afterparty.

255
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Opnext is where builders meet capital, founders find funding, and companies source top talent.

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Plus, meet institutional investors and developers from BlackRock, H.C. Wainwright, and Bitcoin Infrastructure Corp.

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If you're at a venture fund or another finance firm, this is the event to learn more about the quantum computing, leading-edge Bitcoin tech, and topics that will define Bitcoin's futures.

258
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Go to opnext.dev for tickets and use the code TFTC to get 25% off a general admission or VIP

259
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ticket to the event. Again, that's opnext.dev, go TFTC for 25% off a ticket. I'll see you there.

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00:23:48,217 --> 00:23:52,918
So freaks, this rip of TFTC was brought to you by our good friends at BitKey. BitKey makes Bitcoin

261
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easy to use and hard to lose. It is a hardware wallet that natively embeds into a two or three

262
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multi-sig. You have one key on the hardware wallet, one key on your mobile device and block stores.

263
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264
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or maybe yourself who have Bitcoin on exchanges and have for a long time, but haven't taken a

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step to self-custody because they're worried about the complications of setting up a private

266
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public key pair, securing that seed phrase, setting up a pin, setting up a passphrase.

267
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Again, BitKey makes it easy to use, hard to lose. It's the easiest zero to one step,

268
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your first step to self-custody. If you have friends and family on the exchanges who haven't

269
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moved it off. Tell them to pick up a big key, go to big key dot world, use the key TFTC 20 at

270
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checkout for 20% off your order. That's big key dot world code TFTC 20. So you mentioned money

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dev kit. I had Nick on a couple of months ago. I love what they're building. Let's dive into

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the landscape of the solutions that are being brought to market. You have money dev kit,

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L402. It looks like they just revamped that breeze has a software development kit. There's some

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Noster Wallet Connect, dev kits that exist out there,

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Cashew, I think they have cash.

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Yeah, Albi has some agentic wallet stuff too.

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There's a ton of Bitcoiners who are exploring this space.

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A lot of Bitcoin groups or companies

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who had wallet software

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have been exploring, okay, can we take our wallet software?

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Can we add it to our agents?

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i think there's also like a phoenix d uh skill for for agents um so a lot of wallet software

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that you could already run on a server now uh agents can easily manage um and especially the

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ones that kind of make it easy so probably you don't want your agent to be running like whole

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hog lnd and like trying to manage liquidity and stuff waste a lot of tokens doing that

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but stuff with an LSP.

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So that's like MoneyDevKit,

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that's PhoenixD,

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that's or stuff that doesn't use Lightning directly,

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but supports Lightning.

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So like Cashew, Wallets,

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picking a mint and stuff like that.

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So I think on the wallet,

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on the client side,

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on the agent side,

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there's a lot there.

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There's a lot of options.

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I would strongly encourage Bitcoiners to go play with.

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I think MoneyDevKit is probably the easiest,

300
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but the Cashew stuff is also awesome.

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And same with Aldi.

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Uh, so I, I would strongly encourage Bitcoin is to go play with that and like get an agent,

303
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install it, uh, give it a wallet.

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Uh, money dev kit also has a cool chat bot version now that you don't have to do anything.

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You just add the chat bot to your like WhatsApp group chat or your telegram group chat.

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Uh, and then you can, you can give it a Bitcoin wallet.

307
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You can send money.

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You can do all kinds of fun stuff with it.

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I know a lot of people, uh, have been playing with like making bets with each other by, by

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having it hold the money and then it resolves the bet.

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So there's a lot of cool stuff people have been doing with that.

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So you don't have to deal with the whole agent thing.

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You can just add that chatbot to your chat.

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And that's also cool.

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And then on top of that, yeah, and then we need the merchant side, right?

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So we need merchants to actually want to accept agentic payments,

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payments from these agents, automated payments,

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and then support that on their websites, on their software stack.

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And that a little more complicated right because that often requires retooling the merchant website The merchant website is probably built around CAPTCHAs and Visa and preventing fraud that they would then have to pay for And suddenly you asking them like no no no remove all of the crap that you built up over all these years for fraud prevention because you don need that anymore We going to give you a payment scheme that doesn have chargebacks

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and there's a lot of consumer protection reasons for chargebacks but if you're buying

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ten dollar coffee your agent's probably going to do fine it's probably going to get you actual coffee

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um and then you don't need a chargeback you it's ten bucks if it screws up you're not that worried

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about it you know okay if you're buying a car or a house or something then then you might want

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some other avenue for which to get your money back if something goes wrong um but for the vast

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majority of purchases people make on a daily basis you don't really need chargebacks um and

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they just are this massive drag on the economy in terms of the the cost uh imposed by visa and

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others to to get it there so yeah it's it's about uh people reaching out to merchants it's about

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bitcoiners saying hey merchant you know i know you haven't cared about bitcoin in the past maybe you

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still don't care about bitcoin but there's this agentic payments thing it's going to be big it's

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going to be a big part of your customer base and you need to start thinking about how you're going

331
00:28:44,395 --> 00:28:48,715
to support agentic payments you need to start supporting agentic payments and specifically

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00:28:48,715 --> 00:28:53,975
the thing that exists for agentic payments that actually is usable today is bitcoin so you should

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00:28:53,975 --> 00:29:00,355
add you know bitcoin to your if you're on shopify go find shopify plugins and share those with

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merchants um whatever yeah well that this um you're right about the client side

335
00:29:08,335 --> 00:29:10,935
and I'm just going to go down a rabbit hole here,

336
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explain my user experience with my agent

337
00:29:13,355 --> 00:29:17,895
and it's Bitcoin wallet, which is a Phoenix D server.

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So I had my agent Martin, who's sophisticated Marty,

339
00:29:23,115 --> 00:29:25,095
do some research on what he thinks,

340
00:29:25,475 --> 00:29:28,175
what he thought would be the best Bitcoin wallet

341
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or Lightning setup specifically.

342
00:29:31,935 --> 00:29:34,475
We tried LDK first, ran into some problems

343
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with channel management and banged our head

344
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for a couple of hours and I was like,

345
00:29:38,055 --> 00:29:41,155
you know what, this is too complicated.

346
00:29:41,455 --> 00:29:44,235
Go find some out-of-the-box, simpler solution to this.

347
00:29:44,315 --> 00:29:45,095
And I found PhoenixD.

348
00:29:45,275 --> 00:29:48,035
And I was like, okay, this PhoenixD thing looks pretty cool.

349
00:29:48,775 --> 00:29:51,155
I can download it on my server and we can use this.

350
00:29:51,515 --> 00:29:57,475
So I downloaded it and I was like, okay, we need to fund a channel.

351
00:29:58,475 --> 00:30:00,615
And so I found this Bolts thing.

352
00:30:00,615 --> 00:30:03,395
It'll allow you to send on-chain Bitcoin to that.

353
00:30:03,555 --> 00:30:07,455
Then it'll basically open up a channel immediately with Phoenix.

354
00:30:08,055 --> 00:30:12,315
So just here's the bolts on chain channel, send it here, and then I'll open the channel.

355
00:30:12,495 --> 00:30:17,015
So I did that, and it's been working flawlessly since then.

356
00:30:17,015 --> 00:30:22,275
But the other thing, and this is the client side, but talking about demand side from the merchants,

357
00:30:22,575 --> 00:30:31,755
the other sort of lightning primitive that exists that has really allowed my agent to do things rather flawlessly is LNURL auth.

358
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And so since it's running Phoenix Day, I was like, okay, I want you to go test out some spends on some websites.

359
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like find some websites that allow you to sign in

360
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with the private key on your Phoenix D server

361
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using LNURL auth.

362
00:30:44,175 --> 00:30:47,295
And it found LNMarkets.

363
00:30:47,655 --> 00:30:50,035
And I was like, okay, it has an API.

364
00:30:50,255 --> 00:30:52,615
Download the API, figure out how to sign in and all that.

365
00:30:52,615 --> 00:30:56,235
And let's deposit some sats and make a trade.

366
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And it did it within five minutes.

367
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And so that's actually just injecting my own bias,

368
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my own experience.

369
00:31:03,955 --> 00:31:15,915
I think one thing that could be beneficial, and we should focus on making it as easy as possible for these websites to integrate, is LNURL auth.

370
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It's the ability for these agents to sign in with their private key.

371
00:31:21,475 --> 00:31:32,055
And I don't know, you would know better than I, but is there a way to have an if-and function if they sign in via LNURL auth and have made a purchase before?

372
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just don't feed them captchas or something like that?

373
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And could you easily?

374
00:31:36,435 --> 00:31:38,295
Yeah, I mean, I think this gets back to,

375
00:31:38,395 --> 00:31:41,915
to some extent, my point that agents don't care

376
00:31:41,915 --> 00:31:43,435
too much about specific APIs.

377
00:31:44,015 --> 00:31:47,915
So whether a website uses LNURL auth

378
00:31:47,915 --> 00:31:52,515
or whether they require the agent to sign in

379
00:31:52,515 --> 00:31:57,135
with some bespoke sign-in API

380
00:31:57,135 --> 00:31:59,675
and use a unique private key for it,

381
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whether it's a totally different protocol,

382
00:32:01,675 --> 00:32:03,015
kind of doesn't matter.

383
00:32:03,295 --> 00:32:05,015
Like the agent, like your agent

384
00:32:05,015 --> 00:32:09,395
didn't have some predefined code

385
00:32:09,395 --> 00:32:10,635
for LNURL auth.

386
00:32:10,675 --> 00:32:13,275
It didn't have already built in logic

387
00:32:13,275 --> 00:32:14,535
for that specifically.

388
00:32:14,795 --> 00:32:16,615
It said, oh, okay,

389
00:32:16,755 --> 00:32:18,255
here's a website I want to use.

390
00:32:18,555 --> 00:32:20,335
It supports LNURL auth.

391
00:32:20,435 --> 00:32:22,555
Let me go find the spec for LNURL auth.

392
00:32:22,615 --> 00:32:23,455
And then let me implement

393
00:32:23,455 --> 00:32:24,335
against that really quick

394
00:32:24,335 --> 00:32:25,575
and just do that on the fly.

395
00:32:25,775 --> 00:32:26,515
So it did that on the fly.

396
00:32:26,515 --> 00:32:27,495
It doesn't care what

397
00:32:27,495 --> 00:32:29,515
the specific protocol is.

398
00:32:29,515 --> 00:32:47,755
And I think that's really the cool thing about these agents that because they're fairly competent at writing small scale software, you know, as long as something straightforward and can be specified in a reasonably compact way, they can just use it.

399
00:32:47,935 --> 00:32:48,535
They don't care.

400
00:32:49,515 --> 00:32:53,415
And so I think that's what I think.

401
00:32:53,495 --> 00:32:54,555
So I think that's really powerful.

402
00:32:54,555 --> 00:33:02,795
um on your point about merchants and using this for uh turning off captchas you know i think to a

403
00:33:02,795 --> 00:33:08,675
large extent they don't need to right the reason for all of the captchas and anti-fraud and whatever

404
00:33:08,675 --> 00:33:14,615
is because of chargebacks right like small merchants regularly get people who come to their

405
00:33:14,615 --> 00:33:21,815
websites and buy stuff with stolen credit cards and then the merchant ends up getting screwed

406
00:33:21,815 --> 00:33:33,655
Right. So like someone will come to a I think one popular scam, at least a while back, was that people would go sell a merchant's products to legitimate buyers on eBay or Amazon or whatever.

407
00:33:33,895 --> 00:33:47,875
And then they would when someone bought it from them, they would take a stolen credit card, go to the merchant, have it shipped directly to the legitimate buyer who wanted this thing and was buying it from from this scammer on Amazon.

408
00:33:47,875 --> 00:33:52,315
and then the merchant would ship the good the legitimate buyer would be happy they would pay

409
00:33:52,315 --> 00:33:58,215
the scammer via amazon or ebay or whatever um and then ultimately the person who's stolen credit

410
00:33:58,215 --> 00:34:03,435
card was used would declare their card stolen and the company this merchant would get screwed

411
00:34:03,435 --> 00:34:12,215
and they would lose lose the money um and so that has so merchants have to do all kinds of stupid

412
00:34:12,215 --> 00:34:20,195
anti-fraud to try to prevent these kinds of scams from ruining their bottom line. And again, for the

413
00:34:20,195 --> 00:34:28,635
90-whatever percent of purchases where people don't really need that kind of purchase protection

414
00:34:28,635 --> 00:34:36,635
that you have with chargebacks, there's no need for these chargebacks to be there and for merchants

415
00:34:36,635 --> 00:34:44,595
to be putting in pouring capital, pouring time, pouring effort into anti-fraud and chargeback

416
00:34:44,595 --> 00:34:47,475
protection to retain their earnings.

417
00:34:47,735 --> 00:34:52,955
This is, I mean, ignore the two, two and a half percent fee that Visa takes for that,

418
00:34:53,175 --> 00:34:55,695
you know, the Visa network takes from every transaction.

419
00:34:56,795 --> 00:35:03,955
And also the amount of human effort tied to this anti-fraud stuff that all these merchants

420
00:35:03,955 --> 00:35:09,795
have to build in not just human effort, but like they have to hire support staff. It's not just

421
00:35:09,795 --> 00:35:13,535
software engineers, not just like they have to hire, they have to integrate all this capture

422
00:35:13,535 --> 00:35:20,635
crap and, and anti-fraud technology and ML models to do anti-fraud and whatever. They also have to

423
00:35:20,635 --> 00:35:25,495
hire humans and support to talk to people and try to fish out whether they're a scammer or not.

424
00:35:26,115 --> 00:35:31,535
It's a huge drag on all these small businesses and on the economy generally, right? And so if we

425
00:35:31,535 --> 00:35:36,735
offer options where there isn't chargebacks they can just remove all this crap and all of a sudden

426
00:35:36,735 --> 00:35:43,835
all those costs go away and sure some uh some customers might want to buy with purchase

427
00:35:43,835 --> 00:35:48,375
protection and might want to use chargeback supporting payment rails those can be built

428
00:35:48,375 --> 00:35:55,195
on bitcoin too right you can have some arbiter who sits in the middle of the payment and doesn't

429
00:35:55,195 --> 00:36:02,715
clear the funds until uh the payment is is not is approved by the buyer and they do dispute

430
00:36:02,715 --> 00:36:06,695
resolution whatever you can build on bitcoin too it's been built before there hasn't been a lot of

431
00:36:06,695 --> 00:36:11,115
demand for it in part because there just hasn't been a lot of demand for bitcoin payments um so

432
00:36:11,115 --> 00:36:16,615
hopefully you know hopefully we can shift that now build more demand for bitcoin payments and then

433
00:36:16,615 --> 00:36:21,555
those kind of tools might come back people might be more interested in using them and building them

434
00:36:21,555 --> 00:36:27,655
out. But yeah, I mean, merchants could just remove all of this crap that they've built up over the

435
00:36:27,655 --> 00:36:36,695
years and just offer payments in Bitcoin. Well, you mentioned Bitcoin payments have not won

436
00:36:36,695 --> 00:36:42,395
in their first 17 years. And I think many people would point to price volatility and say using

437
00:36:42,395 --> 00:36:49,835
Bitcoin as your unit of account is risky as a business owner. So on this point, how imperative

438
00:36:49,835 --> 00:36:56,275
do you think it is for people providing these agentic receive tools bitcoin receive tools

439
00:36:56,275 --> 00:37:04,315
for merchants uh to include dollar off ramps like auto conversions to dollars or the ability to

440
00:37:04,315 --> 00:37:10,095
receive stable coins side by side with with bitcoin yeah i mean certainly it's important

441
00:37:10,095 --> 00:37:16,075
for many merchants and and there are a ton of payment processors uh that will happily take

442
00:37:16,075 --> 00:37:21,975
Bitcoin and deposit money into your traditional bank account via wire once a day or once a week

443
00:37:21,975 --> 00:37:30,995
or whatever. This is not like particularly novel technology. You know, for some merchants,

444
00:37:30,995 --> 00:37:34,395
that's going to be really important. For some merchants, they might be happy to take some

445
00:37:34,395 --> 00:37:40,335
Bitcoin and actually hold some something other than just dollars. Like we've seen pretty good

446
00:37:40,335 --> 00:37:46,655
uptake with a lot of merchants just in their desire for bitcoin um so yeah i mean that certainly

447
00:37:46,655 --> 00:37:50,415
needs to be an option it needs to be an option for for many merchants doesn't need to be an option

448
00:37:50,415 --> 00:37:55,015
for all merchants not everyone's going to want that um but i think that's pretty straightforward

449
00:37:55,015 --> 00:38:02,735
there's a lot of uh companies that offer that so that shouldn't be an issue for merchants these days

450
00:38:02,735 --> 00:38:09,715
it does have some more onboarding friction right they have to do kyc or kyb um to onboard for a

451
00:38:09,715 --> 00:38:13,975
lot of those platforms because they're regulated whereas for something like money dev kit or

452
00:38:13,975 --> 00:38:21,115
something that's more native bitcoin or native stable coins um they can just install some software

453
00:38:21,115 --> 00:38:27,295
package and and they're done there's no real onboarding um so yeah i mean i think stable coins

454
00:38:27,295 --> 00:38:35,975
are useful there i think we just want to make sure that they're used as the the savings part

455
00:38:35,975 --> 00:38:46,055
So once a merchant receives money via a more open payment rail, they can then swap it into some stable coin.

456
00:38:46,495 --> 00:38:56,015
And there's competition for stable coins because then each merchant could have their own stable coin they prefer based on the interest rate they receive for holding that stable coin or whatever.

457
00:38:57,895 --> 00:39:00,435
And that wouldn't impact the payment rails.

458
00:39:00,435 --> 00:39:24,215
It's really when all of the payments flow over the same rails, the same stablecoin on the same blockchain, that we get this monopolistic effect where switching costs become infinitely high for people to switch to some new stablecoin because the entire economy has to rotate to using that new one when it was using some old one.

459
00:39:24,215 --> 00:39:30,575
And that's where you get this monopolistic effect for, you know, eventually those fees will go up and we'll have another visa.

460
00:39:30,835 --> 00:39:35,455
Sup freaks. Right now, someone with less capital than you is building a better Bitcoin position than you are.

461
00:39:35,815 --> 00:39:38,935
They're not smarter. They're not luckier. They're just using this downturn differently.

462
00:39:39,335 --> 00:39:41,515
The small minority will quietly make moves that matter.

463
00:39:42,155 --> 00:39:44,355
And Unchained wrote a field guide for that small minority.

464
00:39:44,595 --> 00:39:46,775
It's called 21 Moves to Make in the Downturn.

465
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Inside, you'll learn how to orient your thinking around Bitcoin's long term properties,

466
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467
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468
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retirement accounts, and idle capital.

469
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If you plan to use this downturn instead of watching it pass,

470
00:40:02,615 --> 00:40:05,735
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471
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472
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What's up, freaks?

473
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474
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481
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482
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using it for our keys at the house too there's been a lot of robberies they have essential faraday

483
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slings faraday backpacks it's a bitcoin company they're running on a bitcoin standard they have a

484
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485
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anything or simply just use the code tftc when shopping at slnt Patented technology special operations approved It has free shipping as well So go check it out What the lowest hanging fruit that you want to see built that doesn exist right now at this intersection

486
00:41:12,232 --> 00:41:14,852
I think it's really about merchant outreach.

487
00:41:14,852 --> 00:41:24,032
So I'm not aware of a good tool, of a good site that kind of covers all of the options for merchants.

488
00:41:24,412 --> 00:41:25,672
Like, you know, I'm a merchant.

489
00:41:25,813 --> 00:41:26,552
I want to take Bitcoin.

490
00:41:26,552 --> 00:41:31,212
okay you know what store are you using or if you're using shopify click here and here's all

491
00:41:31,212 --> 00:41:38,012
your options for shopify if you're using uh your own self-hosted what's the self-hosted wc something

492
00:41:38,012 --> 00:41:44,612
commerce whatever then click here and here's all the plugins um and like i care about receiving

493
00:41:44,612 --> 00:41:49,012
money via local currency or i care about stable coins and like here's here's the options and i

494
00:41:49,012 --> 00:41:55,172
think uh it would be great if someone built that out uh so that there's a more easy place to point

495
00:41:55,172 --> 00:42:04,352
merchants to to say here's where you need to go um and then on top of that once that exists i think

496
00:42:04,352 --> 00:42:08,912
it'll be really clear what what holds remains so like you know there will be there'll be categories

497
00:42:08,912 --> 00:42:13,632
where there's no option right it'll be uh you know i'm using this particular commerce platform and i

498
00:42:13,632 --> 00:42:18,652
want payments via you know i want my payments to come in in bitcoin and then i want to swap to

499
00:42:18,652 --> 00:42:24,632
you know usdt and it'll be well there's no option for you there's no pre-built option for you

500
00:42:24,632 --> 00:42:32,712
And there, again, all of the pieces probably exist, and there's probably some plugin for that where they can take Bitcoin.

501
00:42:32,932 --> 00:42:37,872
And then there's certainly USDT and Bitcoin and USDT swap services, but there's not a cohesive plugin.

502
00:42:38,512 --> 00:42:51,092
And then I think that is where an agent can totally build that, where the big building blocks already exist, but they need to be put together into some cohesive platform and plugin for this particular commerce solution.

503
00:42:51,092 --> 00:42:54,293
an agent can absolutely build that

504
00:42:54,293 --> 00:42:56,032
and someone can just sit down on a Saturday

505
00:42:56,032 --> 00:42:57,432
and say, you know,

506
00:42:57,592 --> 00:42:58,952
this is missing.

507
00:42:59,492 --> 00:43:01,672
I was talking to some merchant who wanted it

508
00:43:01,672 --> 00:43:03,192
and this tool doesn't exist.

509
00:43:03,572 --> 00:43:04,992
Let me just spend, you know,

510
00:43:05,032 --> 00:43:06,552
three or four hours with Claude

511
00:43:06,552 --> 00:43:09,172
or ChachiPT or whatever

512
00:43:09,172 --> 00:43:10,813
and have it go build this.

513
00:43:11,372 --> 00:43:12,872
And I think that's where

514
00:43:12,872 --> 00:43:15,052
we as a Bitcoin community need to get to

515
00:43:15,052 --> 00:43:17,972
if we want to grow

516
00:43:17,972 --> 00:43:19,813
and really become the kind of currency

517
00:43:19,813 --> 00:43:21,852
that I think we want to be.

518
00:43:23,472 --> 00:43:23,492
Yeah.

519
00:43:24,432 --> 00:43:25,752
Yeah, we got to make sure that

520
00:43:25,752 --> 00:43:31,052
that educational website is AEO optimized

521
00:43:31,052 --> 00:43:33,192
so that the agents, if they're doing research,

522
00:43:33,432 --> 00:43:36,293
they can find it quickly and understand what's going on.

523
00:43:37,293 --> 00:43:41,472
Yeah, it's so fascinating how fast this happens.

524
00:43:41,532 --> 00:43:42,652
That's like the one question I have.

525
00:43:42,652 --> 00:43:47,012
When you consider all the capital behind Visa, Stripe, Coinbase,

526
00:43:47,012 --> 00:43:54,293
all these competing agentic payments companies with their own vested interest and perspectives

527
00:43:54,293 --> 00:44:02,232
and subjective views on how this should play out it does seem a bit daunting but i think

528
00:44:02,232 --> 00:44:08,232
your point and my point would be is like the tools basically collapse the the cost to do this to

529
00:44:08,232 --> 00:44:13,732
near zero so you can't compete that's totally true and also all of them are busy competing

530
00:44:13,732 --> 00:44:15,752
because they all want to take the crown, right?

531
00:44:15,793 --> 00:44:16,532
They all want to win.

532
00:44:16,612 --> 00:44:23,313
It's not like Google and OpenAI and Stripe and Coinbase

533
00:44:23,313 --> 00:44:25,912
and everyone are pulling in the same direction.

534
00:44:26,052 --> 00:44:27,032
No, they're all trying to compete.

535
00:44:27,152 --> 00:44:28,852
They're all trying to have their own solution win.

536
00:44:29,492 --> 00:44:32,852
And I think that really gives us an opportunity.

537
00:44:33,813 --> 00:44:36,852
And I mean, I think it is moving fast.

538
00:44:36,852 --> 00:44:41,313
And so there's a good chance that we start to see some kind of,

539
00:44:41,313 --> 00:44:45,412
not necessarily winner, but a lot of merchant adoption

540
00:44:45,412 --> 00:44:47,572
in one or two of these solutions over the next year.

541
00:44:48,652 --> 00:44:51,452
And so I think Bitcoiners need to also move fast.

542
00:44:51,632 --> 00:44:54,692
We need to, as a community, be using these tools

543
00:44:54,692 --> 00:44:57,172
and building these tools and talking to merchants

544
00:44:57,172 --> 00:45:00,672
and getting them onboarded before anyone else does

545
00:45:00,672 --> 00:45:06,092
because it's only by doing it quickly and moving fast

546
00:45:06,092 --> 00:45:09,092
that we can beat these companies that are trying to move as fast as they can.

547
00:45:09,092 --> 00:45:15,452
all right let's call some people out who uh in your mind is moving too slow is not doing enough

548
00:45:15,452 --> 00:45:22,212
right now who can be doing more i think it's i think it's you know we have an army of people

549
00:45:22,212 --> 00:45:28,793
who are interested in bitcoin and have a few hours to spare to learn about bitcoin on a saturday

550
00:45:28,793 --> 00:45:33,932
that they could also be use using to play with bitcoin and play with these tools right i think

551
00:45:33,932 --> 00:45:37,212
just saying, oh, all the developers

552
00:45:37,212 --> 00:45:39,872
or all the people who work full-time on Bitcoin need to do this.

553
00:45:40,072 --> 00:45:41,412
Yeah, they should. It's true.

554
00:45:41,992 --> 00:45:46,092
And I think we'll continue to see developers build out these tools

555
00:45:46,092 --> 00:45:50,572
and hopefully, I hope, also on the merchant side

556
00:45:50,572 --> 00:45:51,532
and focus on that side.

557
00:45:51,732 --> 00:45:56,172
But also, we're not going to be able to do this alone.

558
00:45:56,172 --> 00:45:59,132
The full set of people who work full-time,

559
00:45:59,212 --> 00:46:00,892
have a full-time job working on Bitcoin

560
00:46:00,892 --> 00:46:10,872
is not gonna do the level of merchant outreach we need right so there's like we need we need the

561
00:46:10,872 --> 00:46:18,273
average bitcoiner to be you know saying this week i'm going to talk to to one or two merchants and

562
00:46:18,273 --> 00:46:26,352
i've got my agent set up i use you know khali's clawee service or i got an old linux laptop and i

563
00:46:26,352 --> 00:46:36,732
put um a an agent on there or whatever open claw um and i gave it a wallet and now i want it to just

564
00:46:36,732 --> 00:46:48,732
go buy my monthly creatine subscription um and so just make that happen like go reach out to

565
00:46:48,732 --> 00:46:52,892
to the different merchants that you have or have your age like the great thing is you don't have to

566
00:46:52,892 --> 00:46:57,032
do a lot of this stuff anymore you just ask your agent to do it you know give it access to an email

567
00:46:57,032 --> 00:47:02,773
account and have it send a bunch of emails to 10 different merchants and say like hey you know i i

568
00:47:02,773 --> 00:47:08,132
want to i want to do this and i i don't want to have to think about buying this anymore i don't

569
00:47:08,132 --> 00:47:12,972
want to have to manage an auto subscription that may get too fast or too slow i just want to be

570
00:47:12,972 --> 00:47:22,552
able to text my agent and say hey hey go buy me this this creatine or whatever um and i think just

571
00:47:22,552 --> 00:47:30,392
everybody does a little bit and we went well to that point about the agents just doing things

572
00:47:30,392 --> 00:47:38,152
and we've touched on it a bit here but i think it's important to really nail it down like how

573
00:47:38,152 --> 00:47:45,793
important do you think robust documentation and an open api is for wallet builders in the space

574
00:47:45,793 --> 00:47:51,932
to make it easily discoverable for these agents we're looking to spend on on the web oh yeah

575
00:47:51,932 --> 00:47:59,212
absolutely i mean the big thing like agents are these llms aren't necessarily great with

576
00:47:59,212 --> 00:48:04,592
tons of subtle documentation like you mentioned like trying to use ldk directly like yeah i mean

577
00:48:04,592 --> 00:48:12,112
an agent's not gonna do great with directly using ldk and building its own lightning node using that

578
00:48:12,112 --> 00:48:21,313
software uh in kind of an easy environment right they want to use phoenix d or you know a cashew

579
00:48:21,313 --> 00:48:27,052
wallet or money dev kit or albi or whatever where it's just you know here's one page document that

580
00:48:27,052 --> 00:48:32,552
explains like install the install the wallet by this command this command gives you an invoice

581
00:48:32,552 --> 00:48:37,692
this command checks uh your balance and this command lists your previous transactions right

582
00:48:37,692 --> 00:48:44,092
they want something that's simple and straightforward and well documented and clear um and the good

583
00:48:44,092 --> 00:48:48,152
thing is i mean like you're writing that in english right it's not like developers also want

584
00:48:48,152 --> 00:48:54,592
that right it's not like this isn't really that novel like writing things for agents and it's just

585
00:48:54,592 --> 00:48:59,092
it's really all the same things you were gonna write to begin with um and so but yeah having

586
00:48:59,092 --> 00:49:05,232
these these simple and straightforward and understandable apis um really just lets them run

587
00:49:05,232 --> 00:49:14,552
yeah no i'm bullish i think uh i think the merchant outreach is is going to be imperative

588
00:49:14,552 --> 00:49:18,813
I tweeted this out last night, but we're getting some electrical work done in our house.

589
00:49:19,592 --> 00:49:25,172
I was talking to the electrician who's doing the work, and I've got to pay the deposit today.

590
00:49:25,273 --> 00:49:30,012
I just threw it out there like, hey, if you want to take the deposit in Bitcoin, we can make that happen.

591
00:49:30,132 --> 00:49:32,752
He texted us last night. He was like, you know what? I am going to take it in Bitcoin.

592
00:49:33,632 --> 00:49:36,872
Obviously, this is meat space. That's a very manual business.

593
00:49:36,872 --> 00:50:05,972
And I think where I'm going with this is I think one of the larger opportunities that people are recognizing with the emergence of these agents that are competent enough to get a lot of work done, particularly in the realm of software engineering, is that you can go and basically help these small to medium-sized businesses that are typically family-owned and very manual at this point and help them build a website and a social presence rather trivially with these tools.

594
00:50:06,872 --> 00:50:15,552
I think if you're a Bitcoiner, it's a caught the AI bug and recognizes the profound nature of what's happening right now.

595
00:50:15,612 --> 00:50:19,852
And this is one of your your ideas is just give them out of the box Bitcoin payments as well.

596
00:50:19,972 --> 00:50:25,632
If you're going to go help all these small businesses build a presence on the Internet.

597
00:50:26,492 --> 00:50:30,052
Yeah, totally. Yeah. And I mean, look, mean space also matters, right?

598
00:50:30,052 --> 00:50:39,793
The square integrating Bitcoin payments means for some million or so merchants in the United States, except New York.

599
00:50:39,932 --> 00:50:41,773
Thanks, New York. Thanks, BitLicense.

600
00:50:42,612 --> 00:50:45,552
All they have to do is go in settings and change one setting.

601
00:50:45,752 --> 00:50:53,752
And then all of a sudden they, for some subset of their payments, and sure, Bitcoin payments aren't huge, but they're not zero anymore.

602
00:50:55,092 --> 00:50:58,012
Then suddenly they get no fees, right?

603
00:50:58,012 --> 00:51:02,872
So instead of fees as two and a half or whatever percent fee, you get nothing.

604
00:51:03,212 --> 00:51:06,252
Right. And so they that's a really huge portion of the revenue.

605
00:51:06,372 --> 00:51:18,972
And I think just even doing in-person merchant outreach for in-person payments and coffee shops and whatever can make a huge difference for some of these some of these companies and to get Bitcoin payments in meat space off zero as well.

606
00:51:18,972 --> 00:51:20,773
And I think that's that's also really important.

607
00:51:20,932 --> 00:51:22,752
And the Bitcoin community should be working hard on that.

608
00:51:22,832 --> 00:51:25,492
And there's like the Bitcoin merchant community.

609
00:51:25,492 --> 00:51:37,572
If you Google Bitcoin merchant community, they have a good website that kind of targets more meat space and Square merchants and explains why they should turn the feature on and why they should offer it to their customers.

610
00:51:37,773 --> 00:51:41,472
And then Bitcoin is obviously also need to be using it.

611
00:51:42,232 --> 00:51:48,192
The great cash app now, you can pay with Bitcoin without having any Bitcoin.

612
00:51:48,192 --> 00:51:54,532
So you just have to have dollars in your cash app balance and automatically buy Bitcoin and then send it all in the same transaction.

613
00:51:54,532 --> 00:51:58,112
you don't have to tell the ira you're not supposed to tell the irs about it there's no

614
00:51:58,112 --> 00:52:03,092
there's no tax implications there's no nothing um so even if you have a stack of bitcoin

615
00:52:03,092 --> 00:52:08,012
in another wallet you know install cash out put some dollars in there and then go use it to spend

616
00:52:08,012 --> 00:52:13,972
bitcoin and make the bitcoin economy happen more and then you're automatically replenishing you

617
00:52:13,972 --> 00:52:17,912
know you're not you're not selling your stack right um so you don't have to sell your sell

618
00:52:17,912 --> 00:52:24,972
your stack anymore to encourage the Bitcoin economy to grow. Yeah, so all of the above,

619
00:52:25,112 --> 00:52:27,813
you know, I think this is the great thing about the Bitcoin community is that there's

620
00:52:27,813 --> 00:52:32,172
so many different people pushing in complementary directions. And I've said this a few times, but

621
00:52:32,172 --> 00:52:37,432
I think that's really great. And part of that will be in-person payments. But I think we have

622
00:52:37,432 --> 00:52:42,112
this opportunity, this genuinely unique opportunity in Bitcoin's history with

623
00:52:42,112 --> 00:52:47,412
agentic payments as well yeah and something we didn't touch on that i think we should highlight

624
00:52:47,412 --> 00:52:52,793
as a comparative advantage i think again we've alluded to it um quite a bit but i think the

625
00:52:52,793 --> 00:52:58,632
interoperable nature of all these different payment mechanisms that exist whether it's

626
00:52:59,313 --> 00:53:07,372
e-cash bitcoin stable coins on liquid lightning obviously on chain uh we have spark out there

627
00:53:07,372 --> 00:53:11,872
Arc, and we forgot to mention Arcade, they launched some stablecoin to Bitcoin,

628
00:53:12,512 --> 00:53:20,592
agentic payment rail as well. And I think comparing it to the competition that you described between

629
00:53:20,592 --> 00:53:29,892
Google, Stripe, Visa, Coinbase, Circle, whoever it may be, the interoperability does not exist.

630
00:53:29,892 --> 00:53:36,592
Or if it does exist, it's a bit janky. But within Bitcoin and the disparate sub-protocols that

631
00:53:36,592 --> 00:53:41,552
people are building on it's rather seamless because of the lightning network yeah and this

632
00:53:41,552 --> 00:53:46,992
is i mean the wild thing is that this is actually unique even in crypto i mean you look at like even

633
00:53:46,992 --> 00:53:52,392
the ethereum ecosystem with all their l2s the things aren't compatible you there are bridges

634
00:53:52,392 --> 00:53:58,012
you can send between them but you have to know to the the like you just scan a qr code and then you

635
00:53:58,012 --> 00:54:01,793
send money and all of a sudden it went into a black hole because they were expecting it on one

636
00:54:01,793 --> 00:54:07,212
chain and you're actually on some other chain it's it's awful it's like actually really painful

637
00:54:07,212 --> 00:54:14,892
and that's what the stable coin ecosystem is built on in many cases um and like usdc on base is a

638
00:54:14,892 --> 00:54:20,252
different token from usdc on ethereum and if you accidentally send the base one to someone and they

639
00:54:20,252 --> 00:54:24,352
were expecting it on ethereum all of a sudden the money went into a black hole and like now you have

640
00:54:24,352 --> 00:54:30,492
to figure out what happened um it's there's actually some really substantial user experience

641
00:54:30,492 --> 00:54:32,932
challenges as a result of that architecture.

642
00:54:33,872 --> 00:54:35,273
And so, yeah, I mean, the,

643
00:54:36,852 --> 00:54:40,692
I think there's always more work to be done on making sure everyone in Bitcoin

644
00:54:40,692 --> 00:54:43,572
all the wallets and everybody speaks the same language and can,

645
00:54:43,608 --> 00:54:50,568
and fall back to lightning, even if they might have an option to use something more native within their ecosystem.

646
00:54:52,008 --> 00:54:57,688
But yeah, it's huge because it really enables this seamless user experience.

647
00:54:57,688 --> 00:55:07,288
And we've seen people show up and for some reason there's this trend of everyone builds their own little ecosystem

648
00:55:07,288 --> 00:55:13,068
and then they get stable coins in it and then they go buy with their stable coin at stake and shake.

649
00:55:13,068 --> 00:55:19,068
And then they post on Twitter about how or on X about how great it is that they can buy with their stable coin at stake and shake.

650
00:55:19,608 --> 00:55:23,508
And all it's doing is buying with Lightning and it's doing a swap to buy with Lightning.

651
00:55:24,648 --> 00:55:38,068
And so, yeah, that's that is a huge part of enabling this future of Bitcoin payments is is Lightning and the fact that all of these different ecosystems can just plug into Lightning and get seamless payments.

652
00:55:38,068 --> 00:56:00,288
Yeah, I think it's very underappreciated in terms of the narrative battle that we're currently in and will only increase from here. I think highlighting that as a value prop for integrating sort of Bitcoin rails for your agentic payments is not giving enough credence in this discussion right now.

653
00:56:00,288 --> 00:56:05,488
is something yeah absolutely and especially the stable coin people like ignore the the blockchain

654
00:56:05,488 --> 00:56:14,508
and ethereum l2 mess that you have um but also on top of that you have which stable coin like not

655
00:56:14,508 --> 00:56:20,528
only okay there's usdc but there's also usdt there's now gusd which is some new one there's

656
00:56:20,528 --> 00:56:27,908
paypal usd uh there was some rumor that stripe or no facebook's now going to create a new one

657
00:56:27,908 --> 00:56:35,288
so there's going to be facebook usd so all of a sudden you don't have compatibility there either

658
00:56:35,288 --> 00:56:39,968
like stable coins oh stable coin payments are going to win well which stable coin that's not

659
00:56:39,968 --> 00:56:45,148
a single system you can't point and say that's you know merchants are just going to accept stable

660
00:56:45,148 --> 00:56:51,728
coins no they're going to accept a stable coin or two and payers are only going to have a stable

661
00:56:51,728 --> 00:56:57,808
coin they're not going to have all of the stable coins as an option so that's not really an answer

662
00:56:57,808 --> 00:57:04,428
either and sure there's bridges and whatever but when you have 40 or 50 different stable coins

663
00:57:04,428 --> 00:57:10,528
and they're on 10 or 20 different blockchains there's a lot of complexity there and that doesn't

664
00:57:10,528 --> 00:57:15,388
actually build a cohesive system either and i think that's that is what's so powerful about

665
00:57:15,388 --> 00:57:19,248
bitcoin and you're right i think we need to highlight that when we talk to people about

666
00:57:19,248 --> 00:57:24,688
well where where agentic payment's gonna go it's like well there's this bitcoin thing that has all

667
00:57:24,688 --> 00:57:26,568
of these different platforms around it

668
00:57:26,568 --> 00:57:28,548
and you just settle in Bitcoin and then

669
00:57:28,548 --> 00:57:30,628
whatever platform you wanted to use, you can use

670
00:57:30,628 --> 00:57:31,668
with a stablecoin on

671
00:57:31,668 --> 00:57:34,668
even if you want USDC on base, you can

672
00:57:34,668 --> 00:57:36,668
get that and you can swap that to Bitcoin and make

673
00:57:36,668 --> 00:57:38,708
that payment. And so that

674
00:57:38,708 --> 00:57:40,648
really simplifies it and makes it this

675
00:57:40,648 --> 00:57:42,988
open payment network

676
00:57:42,988 --> 00:57:44,788
unlike some of the closed

677
00:57:44,788 --> 00:57:46,628
payment networks from stablecoins.

678
00:57:47,728 --> 00:57:48,208
Yeah.

679
00:57:49,168 --> 00:57:50,748
I'm bullish. I think we can

680
00:57:50,748 --> 00:57:52,308
win this. It's just going to take some effort.

681
00:57:53,288 --> 00:57:53,428
Yeah.

682
00:57:53,428 --> 00:57:55,288
it's going to take a lot of effort

683
00:57:55,288 --> 00:57:56,888
but we can totally win this

684
00:57:56,888 --> 00:57:58,988
last in this particular agentic payments topic

685
00:57:58,988 --> 00:58:01,948
before we get to the last topic I want to talk about

686
00:58:01,948 --> 00:58:04,188
which is an update on Clarity Act and BRCA

687
00:58:04,188 --> 00:58:07,768
people listening to this

688
00:58:07,768 --> 00:58:10,148
like Matt picking up what you're putting down

689
00:58:10,148 --> 00:58:11,328
but I've never done this before

690
00:58:11,328 --> 00:58:12,288
what can I do

691
00:58:12,288 --> 00:58:16,688
this has been a common question I've asked over the last month

692
00:58:16,688 --> 00:58:18,468
but just to really drill it home for people

693
00:58:18,468 --> 00:58:21,648
how good is this AI tech

694
00:58:21,648 --> 00:58:23,048
anybody sitting there

695
00:58:23,048 --> 00:58:27,668
at home listening to this who has never programmed a line of code in their life

696
00:58:27,668 --> 00:58:33,308
never even hopped into a development environment or a text editor like

697
00:58:33,308 --> 00:58:40,548
how can they develop the confidence to end or what would you say to them to give them the

698
00:58:40,548 --> 00:58:46,528
confidence to go try this stuff out yeah or even if you tried ai stuff three months ago like it

699
00:58:46,528 --> 00:58:50,928
It really is a totally different ballgame from just three months ago.

700
00:58:52,108 --> 00:59:05,153
And you know I know a lot of people are used to often the free models from OpenAI or from Google They used to those hallucinating all over the place Even the most expensive paid models still hallucinate all over the place

701
00:59:06,513 --> 00:59:11,513
And there are lots of problems for using them in a lot of the ways that people use them all the time.

702
00:59:11,553 --> 00:59:12,873
And they're like, yeah, these kind of suck.

703
00:59:13,013 --> 00:59:13,853
They're sycophants.

704
00:59:13,953 --> 00:59:14,653
They hallucinate.

705
00:59:15,853 --> 00:59:17,533
And now you're telling me they're great at coding.

706
00:59:17,633 --> 00:59:18,293
I don't really believe you.

707
00:59:18,373 --> 00:59:22,053
Like everyone's been telling me they're great at giving all this information.

708
00:59:22,053 --> 00:59:27,213
But when I try them for some cases, they really suck and they give me garbage.

709
00:59:27,713 --> 00:59:31,393
And now you're telling me that everyone's telling me they're great at software engineering.

710
00:59:31,553 --> 00:59:34,933
I don't really believe you because I don't see it on the cases that I've tried.

711
00:59:36,093 --> 00:59:40,293
And the reality is they're much better at software engineering than most other tasks.

712
00:59:41,873 --> 00:59:46,693
Large, complicated software projects, okay, maybe not totally doing it on their own.

713
00:59:46,693 --> 00:59:58,233
But for stuff like websites, apps, taking larger building blocks and building a cohesive product, they are really good at and they really can do it just from talking to them.

714
00:59:59,793 --> 01:00:01,233
And so, yeah, I mean, try it.

715
01:00:01,653 --> 01:00:03,533
You do have to fork over some cash.

716
01:00:03,653 --> 01:00:05,213
You want the latest models.

717
01:00:05,553 --> 01:00:07,573
You don't want to be using some of the free options.

718
01:00:08,733 --> 01:00:12,433
They're good, but they're a year behind the latest models.

719
01:00:12,433 --> 01:00:16,433
And again, the latest models only really got good in the last few months.

720
01:00:16,693 --> 01:00:24,193
Um, so, you know, fork over some cash, get the latest models, use the latest Claude, the latest OpenAI, whatever.

721
01:00:24,773 --> 01:00:32,713
Um, and then, yeah, use it, use it with your, your Clawee subscription, uh, which is Kali's self-hosted agent service.

722
01:00:33,153 --> 01:00:39,853
Um, or try Money Dev Kits, uh, OriBot is what they call it, which you can just add to your group chat.

723
01:00:39,933 --> 01:00:40,653
It's not hard.

724
01:00:40,873 --> 01:00:44,293
I think that one is free and might not always use the latest models.

725
01:00:44,293 --> 01:00:46,013
You have to look into how to switch it over.

726
01:00:46,013 --> 01:00:51,013
but but you know just try it like start with something simple start with something that's

727
01:00:51,013 --> 01:00:57,133
applicable to you you know I you know if you have your your at-home candle business or jewelry

728
01:00:57,133 --> 01:01:03,053
business or whatever you know just hook up OriBot and say hey I've got this business I've got these

729
01:01:03,053 --> 01:01:08,533
items put it up on a website integrate you know money dev kit's the easiest if you just want to

730
01:01:08,533 --> 01:01:11,573
if you want to accept bitcoin you don't need dollars necessarily so if you're listening to

731
01:01:11,573 --> 01:01:15,693
this listening to this you're probably a bit corner maybe you just want on bitcoin you don't

732
01:01:15,693 --> 01:01:17,513
necessarily need to swap it to dollars right away.

733
01:01:17,873 --> 01:01:19,693
Just ask it to integrate MoneyDevKit,

734
01:01:20,333 --> 01:01:21,733
build a store around

735
01:01:21,733 --> 01:01:23,033
MoneyDevKit, and

736
01:01:23,033 --> 01:01:25,913
I can almost guarantee you it will work.

737
01:01:26,973 --> 01:01:27,753
Okay, maybe not

738
01:01:27,753 --> 01:01:29,513
exactly the first shot, but

739
01:01:29,513 --> 01:01:31,393
just tell it to fix stuff.

740
01:01:31,713 --> 01:01:33,733
Notice that it's broken, tell it what's wrong,

741
01:01:34,113 --> 01:01:35,473
and in

742
01:01:35,473 --> 01:01:37,753
three or four hours, you will have a

743
01:01:37,753 --> 01:01:39,993
fully functioning website that can take Bitcoin payments.

744
01:01:40,653 --> 01:01:41,813
It really is

745
01:01:41,813 --> 01:01:43,193
that good now.

746
01:01:43,193 --> 01:01:45,113
So just do it.

747
01:01:45,693 --> 01:01:51,773
Just do it. Just do it. We're sponsored by Nike. So thank you for getting that catchphrase in.

748
01:01:52,553 --> 01:01:54,213
I thought they stopped using that.

749
01:01:54,873 --> 01:01:57,653
Did they? I'd be shocked if they did. Just do it.

750
01:01:58,473 --> 01:02:03,533
All right. Wrapping up here, though, Clarity Act. I'm confused.

751
01:02:05,133 --> 01:02:07,773
I've been talking with Kyle Olney behind the scenes.

752
01:02:08,413 --> 01:02:14,933
It seems like the saber rattling between the banks and Coinbase and the banking lobby and crypto lobby is hitting ahead.

753
01:02:14,933 --> 01:02:21,993
And we see within the Trump administration, Scott Besson, Trump himself, really saying, hey, guys, let's get this done.

754
01:02:22,133 --> 01:02:24,233
We need to get this done. Let's get it across the line.

755
01:02:24,653 --> 01:02:32,893
I think everybody, not everybody, but a lot of people are looking at the posturing from Besson and Trump specifically and saying, yay, we're going to get the Clarity Act.

756
01:02:33,013 --> 01:02:33,753
This will be good.

757
01:02:33,753 --> 01:02:44,253
It's unclear to me whether or not the language about self-custodial Bitcoin and the ability for free and open source.

758
01:02:44,933 --> 01:02:50,833
software developers to write code without fearing getting thrown in a cage is still in the Karen Act.

759
01:02:50,933 --> 01:02:56,573
I know you've been on the tip of the spear of advocating for BRCA and including it in the

760
01:02:56,573 --> 01:03:01,693
Clarity Act, but it's not clear to me if the language is still in there or if it will make

761
01:03:01,693 --> 01:03:08,393
it into the final draft. What are you saying? Yeah, I mean, we don't know. Obviously, there's

762
01:03:08,393 --> 01:03:20,798
a lot of debate on the Hill It great that Trump said like no we still need to do this we need to make this happen We running out of time In not very long basically all of Congress is just going to be

763
01:03:20,798 --> 01:03:26,338
focused on the midterms and winning their upcoming elections and not focused on writing new bills,

764
01:03:26,438 --> 01:03:35,178
let alone passing them. So yeah, there's pressure to be had for making sure that the BRCA and

765
01:03:35,178 --> 01:03:39,638
And so protection for LSPs and software developers stays in there.

766
01:03:40,778 --> 01:03:43,538
There's also pressure to be had to get it over the line.

767
01:03:44,398 --> 01:03:57,258
And, you know, obviously the big banks are worried that this great business they have where they pay everyone zero interest and then loan out their money and make interest on it is going to go away.

768
01:03:57,818 --> 01:04:02,818
I mean, it's the dumbest thing because, you know, I was reading an article in the Wall Street Journal the other week.

769
01:04:02,818 --> 01:04:06,758
i was talking about how actually everyone's already moving their money out of banks and just

770
01:04:06,758 --> 01:04:10,078
holding them in brokerage accounts now because brokerage accounts will give you a debit card

771
01:04:10,078 --> 01:04:14,078
they'll let you write checks they'll do bill pay they let you send wires they let you ach

772
01:04:14,078 --> 01:04:19,898
and also they hold your money in a an account that gives you interest because they hold treasuries

773
01:04:19,898 --> 01:04:25,938
for you and now the banks are saying like no no no no crypto can't because stable coins can't pay

774
01:04:25,938 --> 01:04:32,078
interest because people might move their money out of banks into into coinbase when like i mean i

775
01:04:32,078 --> 01:04:38,398
I stopped using a bank. I use a brokerage account for a lot of my dollars now because, yeah, I want some interest.

776
01:04:38,598 --> 01:04:40,878
It would be nice to get some interest more than zero.

777
01:04:42,338 --> 01:04:46,218
So it's the dumbest argument. And but the banks are standing on it.

778
01:04:46,218 --> 01:04:53,858
And some of the Senate is buying it because they're worried that, you know, if banks don't have any money, they'll stop giving loans and that'll crater the economy.

779
01:04:55,638 --> 01:05:01,478
It's anyway. And yeah, you know, the Trump administration coming out and saying like, no, no, no, we have to get this done.

780
01:05:01,478 --> 01:05:09,518
is good obviously you know one or two posts on truth social is not going to like force uh all

781
01:05:09,518 --> 01:05:14,718
the senators to to really say okay and actually no i need to i need to let up on this and go forward

782
01:05:14,718 --> 01:05:20,518
with it we'll see how how involved he gets um you know does he pick up the phone and call some

783
01:05:20,518 --> 01:05:25,998
senators and say like come on just get this over the line this is this is dumb we'll see um but

784
01:05:25,998 --> 01:05:32,158
yeah i think it's all it's all still fairly unclear um i'm not in dc i'm sure coin centers

785
01:05:32,158 --> 01:05:40,058
or the bpi or those folks could give you a more up-to-date sense of where the wind is blowing

786
01:05:40,058 --> 01:05:46,118
but at least what is public right now it's still just kind of up in the air they're still doing

787
01:05:46,118 --> 01:05:51,858
work on it hopefully we get it done soon because if it's not done i mean what i've been told is

788
01:05:51,858 --> 01:05:53,778
basically end of March, it just

789
01:05:53,778 --> 01:05:54,858
starts to become primaries.

790
01:05:55,538 --> 01:05:57,798
Primaries have already started, so in many

791
01:05:57,798 --> 01:05:59,718
cases, a lot of people are already

792
01:05:59,718 --> 01:06:00,098
fighting

793
01:06:00,098 --> 01:06:02,798
for re-election.

794
01:06:03,618 --> 01:06:05,818
But it just becomes re-election

795
01:06:05,818 --> 01:06:06,638
season, and then

796
01:06:06,638 --> 01:06:08,818
you don't get anything passed.

797
01:06:09,658 --> 01:06:10,218
And if we wait

798
01:06:10,218 --> 01:06:12,558
until next Congress,

799
01:06:13,398 --> 01:06:15,358
there's a decent chance that

800
01:06:15,358 --> 01:06:17,738
Warren runs the banking

801
01:06:17,738 --> 01:06:18,318
subcommittee.

802
01:06:20,358 --> 01:06:21,638
Because if the

803
01:06:21,638 --> 01:06:27,158
democrats retake it she would be the the senior member on i think it's the finance committee i

804
01:06:27,158 --> 01:06:32,678
believe she would be a senior on finance and then she would get to steer what happens and what doesn't

805
01:06:32,678 --> 01:06:36,878
and there's no way in hell she's gonna care about any of this stuff you know there's some democrats

806
01:06:36,878 --> 01:06:42,478
who care about this stuff but specifically she certainly wouldn't um and and she would get to

807
01:06:42,478 --> 01:06:49,338
steer what happens in that committee and that's that's very bad for us yeah not ideal people in

808
01:06:49,338 --> 01:06:55,978
i think it's time to stand up and uh yeah i don't know what they're thinking with warren i you know

809
01:06:55,978 --> 01:07:03,658
there's a lot of democrats i think to get it and for warren does not want to step no no that's

810
01:07:03,658 --> 01:07:08,358
abundantly clear uh you should have brian brian armstrong calling her a communist yesterday on

811
01:07:08,358 --> 01:07:13,718
on cable television which was like basically true it's funny it's forced uh brian armstrong

812
01:07:13,718 --> 01:07:18,778
to position to like defend bitcoin harder than he has uh in the last decade which has been

813
01:07:18,778 --> 01:07:19,098
Yeah.

814
01:07:19,198 --> 01:07:20,438
Pleasant surprise.

815
01:07:20,718 --> 01:07:20,778
Yeah.

816
01:07:20,938 --> 01:07:21,098
Yeah.

817
01:07:21,398 --> 01:07:21,758
Yeah.

818
01:07:21,758 --> 01:07:36,723
I mean look obviously clarity is a bunch of stuff for the crypto industry that Bitcoin doesn care about I mean it mostly focused around token regulation that doesn affect us at all But you know hey if we can get the BRCA and protection for software developers

819
01:07:36,723 --> 01:07:39,483
and LSP operators and ARC service provider operators

820
01:07:39,483 --> 01:07:42,143
and and, and, and, and, and in there,

821
01:07:42,383 --> 01:07:45,303
then we got to support that whole hog.

822
01:07:46,023 --> 01:07:46,163
Yeah.

823
01:07:46,983 --> 01:07:47,903
I mean, you mentioned BPI.

824
01:07:48,103 --> 01:07:49,223
I know I said that was the last thing,

825
01:07:49,303 --> 01:07:51,403
but refresh my memory of that research paper

826
01:07:51,403 --> 01:07:58,483
they released on agentic money earlier this week what are your thoughts on that yeah i mean you

827
01:07:58,483 --> 01:08:04,003
know you have to be careful reading too much into like you know llms predict the next token right

828
01:08:04,003 --> 01:08:09,863
and so if there's there's a ton of articles out there about how bitcoin is the best money for llms

829
01:08:09,863 --> 01:08:15,843
there's not very many articles out there about how dollars are the best money for llms and so

830
01:08:15,843 --> 01:08:23,163
if you start typing into an LLM, what is the best money for LLMs or an NAI agents, the response is

831
01:08:23,163 --> 01:08:27,123
going to be, well, look, there's all these articles in my training set about how Bitcoin is great for

832
01:08:27,123 --> 01:08:34,203
this. So the answer is Bitcoin. That doesn't necessarily mean that that's the correct answer.

833
01:08:34,903 --> 01:08:42,203
You know, I think it is to some extent the correct answer in many contexts. But it also doesn't mean

834
01:08:42,203 --> 01:08:47,883
that that's what's going to win even if that is the correct answer even if ai agents prefer bitcoin

835
01:08:47,883 --> 01:08:54,303
you know ultimately the human is going to prompt it and say like hey can you just buy this and if

836
01:08:54,303 --> 01:09:02,643
open ai chat gpt hosted agents products which doesn't exist really yet but i imagine will at

837
01:09:02,643 --> 01:09:10,563
some point um has direct integrations for usdc or their own proprietary payment protocol so that

838
01:09:10,563 --> 01:09:17,803
they get the money, the OpenAI and Stripe payment protocol, where presumably they would get the

839
01:09:17,803 --> 01:09:24,643
revenue from all of these things, then the agent is going to be told to use that. And it's just

840
01:09:24,643 --> 01:09:33,683
going to use that. So I don't think we can rely on agents preferring Bitcoin. It's good to see

841
01:09:33,683 --> 01:09:39,003
that there is a lot of that data out there in their training set. It's good to see that a lot

842
01:09:39,003 --> 01:09:45,243
of people write about how Bitcoin is great for agents. And that shows up in the training set of

843
01:09:45,243 --> 01:09:52,063
these models. But we certainly can't rely on that as going to lead us to victory here. We got to do

844
01:09:52,063 --> 01:09:57,823
the work. You got to do the work, freaks. Just do it. Okay. That's the phrase of the day. Just do it.

845
01:09:59,763 --> 01:10:06,723
Matt, always been a pleasure over the last eight and a half, almost nine years, I'm sure.

846
01:10:06,723 --> 01:10:12,923
this won't be the last keep crushing it and um it'll be fun to watch this play out if you're

847
01:10:12,923 --> 01:10:20,663
out there listening you can do your small part make a website talk to a merchant build um a tool

848
01:10:20,663 --> 01:10:25,983
at the intersection of bitcoin and ai payments that that doesn't exist yet where there is a whole

849
01:10:25,983 --> 01:10:31,483
go do it just go play around with it it's fun you can ask the llm to teach you how to use it

850
01:10:31,483 --> 01:10:33,623
if you're looking for a step one.

851
01:10:34,643 --> 01:10:34,723
Yeah.

852
01:10:35,763 --> 01:10:36,303
All right.

853
01:10:36,803 --> 01:10:37,083
All right.

854
01:10:37,123 --> 01:10:38,303
We'll do this again at some point, I'm sure.

855
01:10:38,783 --> 01:10:39,283
We always do.

856
01:10:40,083 --> 01:10:40,803
Yeah, thanks.

857
01:10:41,243 --> 01:10:41,923
Thanks for having me.

858
01:10:42,563 --> 01:10:43,123
Peace and love, freaks.

859
01:10:43,583 --> 01:10:46,483
Thank you for listening to this episode of TFTC.

860
01:10:46,983 --> 01:10:48,223
If you've made it this far,

861
01:10:48,383 --> 01:10:50,523
I imagine you got some value out of the episode.

862
01:10:51,143 --> 01:10:53,103
If so, please share it far and wide

863
01:10:53,103 --> 01:10:54,903
with your friends and family.

864
01:10:54,903 --> 01:10:56,343
We're looking to get the word out there.

865
01:10:57,183 --> 01:10:58,883
Also, wherever you're listening,

866
01:10:59,023 --> 01:11:01,163
whether that's YouTube, Apple, Spotify,

867
01:11:01,483 --> 01:11:04,463
make sure you like and subscribe to the show.

868
01:11:04,463 --> 01:11:08,203
And if you can leave a rating on the podcasting platforms,

869
01:11:08,203 --> 01:11:09,203
that goes a long way.

870
01:11:09,723 --> 01:11:10,443
Last but not least,

871
01:11:10,443 --> 01:11:14,203
if you want to get these episodes a day early and ad free,

872
01:11:14,363 --> 01:11:19,463
make sure you download the fountain podcasting app and go to fountain.fm to

873
01:11:19,463 --> 01:11:21,703
find that $5 a month,

874
01:11:21,783 --> 01:11:27,183
get you every episode a day early ad free helps the show gives you incredible

875
01:11:27,183 --> 01:11:27,643
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876
01:11:27,643 --> 01:11:31,863
So please consider subscribing via fountain as well.

877
01:11:32,403 --> 01:11:33,323
Thank you for your time.

878
01:11:33,883 --> 01:11:34,743
And until next time.

879
01:11:35,343 --> 01:11:35,543
Okay.