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You've had a dynamic where money has become freer than free.

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We talk about a Fed just gone nuts.

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All the central banks going nuts.

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So it's all acting like safe haven.

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I believe that in a world where central bankers are tripping over themselves to devalue their currency, Bitcoin wins.

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In the world of fiat currencies, Bitcoin is the victor.

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I mean, that's part of the bull case for Bitcoin.

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If you're not paying attention, you probably should be.

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Gentlemen, here we are.

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Good morning.

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Dylan, welcome to the show.

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This is your first time on Tyler.

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This is your second.

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Yeah, this is a long time first time.

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So this is really exciting for me.

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Well, it's exciting for me too, because we've been doing some work together behind the scenes,

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putting together a playbook for mining at home.

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And I think just jumping right into it, this is like an educational series that we're trying to do here at TFTC, just to set the tone and set expectations and get people excited to stick around.

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What are people going to learn if they listen to this whole episode?

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That mining at home, mining in your business is useful and can add value to your business.

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yeah i think uh a lot of people are wondering what's going to happen with all these miners

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shifting to ai and this playbook really outlines the case for building integrated mining and how it

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can be useful like heating systems solar systems battery systems thinking about mining as a tool

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in the toolkit of like energy infrastructure not just data center operations yeah and i mean tyler

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you've been on the show before, but many people are listening now may have missed it because our

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audience is growing exponentially since you were last on over a year ago. So there's a bunch of

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new freaks here. But just to set the tone on authority, what gives you guys the authority to

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write this particular playbook? So Dylan and I have been steadfast focused on the home mining

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and really hash rate heating space for two years now is coming up on. So I authored the book,

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Bitcoin mining heat reuse just out of curiosity, kind of fell into that rabbit hole. We talked

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about that on the first pod. Thanks for the mention there, Marty. Really focused on how we

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can integrate Bitcoin miners into heating systems, electric heat that pays. People have seen the

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retrofitted space heaters, the hacked together products and gadgets, all the way to the heat

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bits. And Dylan and I came in and said, well, how does this really scale into the actual energy

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infrastructure of a building, your furnace, your boiler, not just a gadget you plug into the wall,

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but part of the building, you call a technician, you get it integrated fully, part of your solar

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system, et cetera. And that really led to the Heat Punk Summit, which we've talked on before,

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where we bring together mining developers and people from the building and energy space,

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electricians, plumbers, home insurers, ASHRAE certifiers, all this stuff. We kind of back

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solve this problem. It's long winded, but to say, you know, we believe wholeheartedly that there's

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this new use case for Bitcoin miners, this new home for them, like distributing into all these

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different pockets of stranded energy to heating systems to solar systems. And we're really focused

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on building integrated miners and we're trying to solve that problem. So this playbook is really an

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outline of how we do it right now today. And then a little bit of discussion of where we think it's

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going to go once the technology and educational people challenges get solved as well.

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yeah i just want to add that at exergy we've been implementing miners in various systems

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and testing them seeing what works what doesn't we've come to a solid conclusion that

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control and software for these miners just sucks because they're designed for industrial use cases

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not necessarily for homes and you know smaller buildings and so we've spent the better part of

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the last year, running numbers, making sure that the calculations check out for running

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these in your home and not necessarily being profitable, but being cost effective relative

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to your utilization case, whether that's solar monetization or heating your home or building.

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And so we spent the better part of the last year developing control systems to force these

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industrial boxes to operate the way we want to.

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And so we're able to touch on at the end of this about what the future of home mining might look like as open source development takes off.

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Awesome. And so, I mean, just jumping right into it, I mean, the first section of the playbook is laying out the case that you have an advantage and you have to use it.

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And so diving into what that advantage is compared to maybe industrial miners.

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Yeah, if you think of a mining operation, the first thing that comes to mind is, okay, I need to exceed my operating costs in Bitcoin mining revenue, in Bitcoin profit, right? That's kind of the goal. And that's very hard if you have on-grid electrical rates, even for some commercial rates, and extremely hard for residential customers that have higher expensive electricity rates, time of use, space, pricing, all these things.

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in addition to like the noise and the all the challenges there do i have the right power outlet

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our argument for you have an advantage use it is buildings have sunk costs almost all buildings on

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earth are heated and the simple framework that like all the electricity you put into a bitcoin

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miner gets turned into heat that really is the undertone of of how we set the stage for why we

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think home miners building integrated miners have an advantage you don't have to run a profitable

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operation. You just need to be useful and you can be useful by, you know, counting the Bitcoin

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earnings as a rebate against your electric heating costs that may come in cheaper than

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your alternative heating fuel. Right. Or you just need to count the Bitcoin earnings if you're

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running that miner instead of sending excess power back to the grid for a large solar system.

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Is that more valuable than what the grid credits would give you? Right. Or maybe hash price rips.

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Right. And you don't have a miner at the time. But if that building did have a miner, it could take advantage, seize that moment and opportunistically join into that profitable mining scenario.

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So that's where like the useful miner framework is saying these things are tools. They can heat buildings. They can monetize solar and they can also run profitably sometimes.

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And you want that tool in your energy system at your building so that you can use it when it seems fit. Got any other comments?

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No, that's OK.

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so i mean i think this is why we put the playbook together there's a ton of people

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myself included and been like i would love to do this like just because not only being a bitcoiner

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it's very cypherpunk and the the whole idea that you can subsidize part of your heating costs with

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bitcoin miners while stacking sats in a non-kyc fashion um is always appealing but it's like all

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How do I actually do this? And trying to discern whether or not your industrial building or your residential home is actually a fit for this model.

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It really comes down to being able to calculate the real cost of your current energy stack and then weighing it against switching it out with a Bitcoin mining heating system.

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So what what calculus goes into that?

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You want to talk to him on the different heating fuels, because that's like the number one go no go gauge, really?

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Yeah.

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So we all like to be comfortable when it's cold.

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You want to be comfortable and heated.

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And so most people don't really know or care what their fuel source is.

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And that's probably the first step in figuring out if this is useful for you.

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Because in the United States and I guess worldwide, we have natural gas heating, propane heaters, heat pumps, electrical heaters, wood.

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We're the guy playing mountain man.

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And all of those are just different fuels to get BTUs into your home, whether that's through a boiler or through a furnace, what have you.

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It's just an energy unit.

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All of these fuels can they run at different efficiencies and deliver different BTUs per unit volume.

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um and so what we do is we can convert a btu into made it straight into a kilowatt

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right because it's well let's let's back up for for any of the ignorant a btu is a british thermal

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unit right yeah so that's like the um the the the common term in the heating industry right because

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we're trying to translate here from the mining industry to the heating industry people talk btu

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when they're buying heat. Miners talk kilowatts, kilowatt hours. And so what Dylan's talking about

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here is like we convert the BTUs to an equivalent kilowatt hour price. We bring it to the mining

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language. And then from there, we say, okay, of all these different heating fuels,

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who's like the most poised to benefit, right? To be useful, to offset that heating cost. How can we

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get that equivalent dollar per kilowatt hour? What a miner would be looking at? If you're talking to

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a heating guy, it's like a dollar per BTU. We're just talking about two different languages here.

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This is all to say like some fuels are better suited than others, right? Yeah.

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Sorry, I got confused because thermal units are dumb in how they convert.

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So anyways, any building owner worth their salt is aware of their utility bills and what they pay.

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And so you can take the exact, you can, you're metered, you know how much fuel you've used,

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or you know how frequently you need to top up your propane tank.

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You know how much that fuel costs, how frequently you're getting it,

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how often it's being delivered.

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So you know all your usage.

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You can get back out your duty cycle of how much heat, not duty cycle,

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how much heat you're building needs.

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You can convert that to an equivalent electrical electricity volume

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and directly compare that with miners.

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And so because all miners are generally sold in.

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Three thousand, if you're an industrial miner, three thousand watt chunks.

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And so you can back that out and you can determine your duty cycle, which is I need this many kilowatt hours.

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This miner runs at this rate, this wattage.

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That's my duty cycle. That's the amount of time in a month that I need this miner to run, produce the same heat as what we're already getting.

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Can I have a comment here? Yeah. So you got to figure out, OK, is my fuel that I'm comparing to expensive? Right. And and if it is, can a miner running out of electricity with Bitcoin rebate, can that be competitive?

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So that's like an energy arbitrage. Right. Is one cheaper than the other if I count in the Bitcoin?

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But what Dylan's talking about now is very important is the duty cycle, because we're talking about how do you know if you're a good candidate?

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Miners call this uptime, right?

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They say, I want 99% uptime.

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The hosting companies are talking about it.

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It means your machine's online more.

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It's really just how, what percentage of the day is it running, right?

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That same thing applies to the heating industry.

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It's called a duty cycle.

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Is your furnace on 10 minutes out of the hour, three hours out of the day, 45 minutes out of the day to duty cycle?

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You actually want a longer duty cycle.

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What that means is a longer heating season.

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means it's colder, not just cold one day of the year,

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but like cold for months

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because that means the miner is going to run more

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and it pays you back more

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and it warrants its upfront costs.

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So long-winded from both of us here,

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but like the two main things are like,

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is your energy arbitrage pricing good?

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And then are you going to use enough of it

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that it's going to be worth your while?

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Yeah.

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This is just for the heating use case.

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We've got others to discuss.

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Yeah, well, I mean, sticking on,

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the heating use case and just the different sort of fuel sources or energy power sources for lack

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of a better term uh that is a better term uh so like bring solar into this and we talk about like

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the third league profitable mining under your utility rate like so bringing in like the

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opportunity cost or weighing the opportunity cost of mining versus these different fuel sources i

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I mean, you just described a big chunk of it, but going a little deeper.

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Yeah.

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So we live in the United States.

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We have, relative to the rest of the world, very abundant energy.

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We are fortunate enough to have natural gas piped throughout all of our cities which is a problem for comparing directly to hash rate heat because we have cheap and abundant natural gas to heat our homes and not necessarily having comparative electrical rates I think electoral rates are just going up So that not great as just comparing one fuel to the other

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But if you were able to generate at home your own electricity with solar panels,

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that really adjusts the comparison because now you have the surplus power

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that you're generating on the spot that you don't have to buy from the grid,

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which then offsets the cost to run your miner,

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which makes it much more competitive against natural gas.

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Now, propane is generally expensive.

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It also has very variable rates across the year,

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depending on when you're topping up your tank.

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And so if you factor all that in, propane lands relatively very expensive relative to electrical rates.

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And on the expansion for how solar is a useful minor principle when you're not heating is

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typically for people that have solar arrays here, they're connected to the grid. There are some

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off-grid solar arrays, you know, if you've got a cabin up in the mountains, but most people are

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connected to the grid. And so what happens is if you oftentimes, like you'll be generating more

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than your buildings using, and that excess energy goes back to the grid, you're selling it to the

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grid in reverse, instead of buying it, you're selling it. They give you like pennies on the

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dollar, or they'll give you credits into your utility account. And if you don't use them for

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the next month, they get washed out at the end of the year. It's not really advantageous to the

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customer, right? Think of it like airline miles instead of cashback on a credit card. So what

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we're arguing here with solar is instead of sending that excess solar to the grid,

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blow that excess energy through a Bitcoin miner. Maybe you don't need the heat. You just dump the

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heat outside in this scenario. It's still the same tool for the building. It's a hash rate

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machine. It's a Bitcoin miner in the building. It can heat the building. It can also just flow

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excess power from a solar array or local generation. I met people last we talked,

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Marty, we were talking about my Alaska trip where I saw people with like micro hydro in their

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backyard, which is crazy. Anyways, excess energy, you flow it through that and it puts money

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directly into your pocket. And then the last one is that profitable mining scenario. There are

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moments, all this is saying we have this tool in the building. We have this black box that makes

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heat and money and it can connect to your solar array it can connect it knows the bitcoin hash

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price it knows the the bitcoin price the difficulty it knows when you're calling for heat this is all

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intelligent system like building energy systems all this is to say it's the same tool but it can

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do three things it can heat the building when it makes sense it can dump the heat outside and just

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monetize the excess energy when it makes sense but also it might just straight up be cheap enough at

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night with cheap power or if bitcoin's price rips to just mine full-time during that moment

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for profitability and so this is kind of the putting a bow on the useful miner principle which

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is like there are there are these three scenarios where you might want to mine and you better damn

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well wish you had a miner in the building to do it during those times because it's gonna we've

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proven seen through our data that um it turns out to be pretty worthwhile should we jump into the

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data or should we dive deeper into the industrial use case like um yes you were doing the analysis of

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the the energy sources and the three different leaks and then the sort of three scenarios you

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want to set yourself up for where it's actually cheaper heat with mining uh yeah you have excess

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solar um so it's profitable to instead of sell that back to the grid sell that to the bitcoin

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network or holy grail um the the price of bitcoin's ripping difficulty is relatively low in

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at any kilowatt per hour price

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or what many would deem to be historically

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a high kilowatt per hour price to mine Bitcoin.

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Maybe it's profitable at some point

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because the price is just ripping so much.

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And so you want to create that optionality

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to do each different thing.

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You want to heat,

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sell to the Bitcoin network instead of the grid

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and just mine Bitcoin because it's profitable.

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What does that look like in an industrial use case?

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How should these individuals who own an industrial facility and operate one think about actually setting this up?

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What do they need to replace?

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What does it look like there?

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Well, first and foremost, for the commercial industrial scale, I think they're poised to benefit well.

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A little bit of that is economies of scale.

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Also, they might use heat in a larger duty cycle or what the miners would call an uptime, right?

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They just need more of it, maybe more of it for longer.

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They also have these intelligent building management systems, right?

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You know, these are large commercial spaces where the utilities are a substantial bill each month, and they're trying to minimize that or reduce it.

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They also benefit from commercial electric rates, right?

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So it's not residential.

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So like all these things point to commercial being really well poised to benefit.

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In terms of the actual integration, I'll tee this up here, and I want to hear Dylan's thoughts too.

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is like we've seen this on the residential side and we're working on our first commercial install

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right now with the mechanical electrical plumbing team out of Boulder County, Colorado. That

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building is still being built. But the same principle seems to apply, which is you don't

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want to design the miner to be the main heat source, meaning it's not designed to heat the

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whole commercial space, the whole home on that coldest day. The reason is miners are expensive

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for every additional bit of heat, every additional kilowatt or BTU we were talking about.

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Because you need those fancy ASIC chips that are expensive. Whereas like a gas furnace,

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if you need more heat, like you just burn more gas, right? You put a bigger valve in it,

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you just more fuel bleeds through. It's marginally more expensive to get a bigger furnace.

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So in this sense, you really want to size the system to be optimized for the average heat load

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so that that duty cycle, that mining machine's uptime is optimized. It's high. Now, that sizing

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optimization could be like, what is the best size do I need if I'm targeting heat? We also talk about

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in the report, what is the best size if I'm trying to monetize solar as my primary use case, right?

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It's not going to be size it for July 1 on a sunny day with no clouds. It's going to be sized for

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your average solar production throughout the summer every day. That way you avoid kind of

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this larger upfront cost. Just tangent on that, the commercial guys do get to benefit from

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writing things off as business expenses, obviously, the hardware, the CapEx there.

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But yeah, back to the sizing comment quick. The way I frame it in my mind,

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we actually at Exergy, we don't recommend, if anyone's listening to this thinking like,

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Do I rip out my furnace?

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Do I rip out my boiler?

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Do I put in a miner?

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No, we add the miner to the furnace.

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We add it to the boiler.

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Think of it like a hybrid car.

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A hybrid car doesn't have a 300 horsepower engine

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and a 300 horsepower electric motor and a giant battery.

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It's kind of fine-tuned and optimized.

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You know, your little RAV4 has got a tiny little electric battery

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with a tiny little electric motor that can go 20 miles.

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But the way it transitions between gas and electric,

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it's like this fine dance, the car is controlling it intelligently, you get way better fuel economy,

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right? And so that's what we're introducing into the building, this smart building where you have

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gas for that coldest day. You have the miner for the majority of your heating needs. You have the

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miner that can dump heat outside for the majority of your excess solar generation. You didn't

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overspend. And then in those instances where it is profitable, you've already got the infrastructure

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integrated to just kick those suckers on. And this is really this intelligent combined system.

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So that's how we think about it for residential. I think that same logic applies to commercial. You got any other thoughts?

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Yeah, I mean, one other note is we've developed a system such that the building itself can determine which fuel source is most profitable at that time you are calling for heat and dynamically switch back and forth.

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And so it doesn't have to be all or nothing, which is really where this buddy system kind of shines.

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like I mentioned earlier you don't care where the heat comes from you just want to go to your

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thermostat and hit 72 when you're cold and then the building will just say I'll figure out the

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most economical way and that can pull in the solar that can pull in hash price and whatever

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your gas rate is and really get that integrated so it's just effectively set and forget and you

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just know your building is running as efficiently as possible using all the inputs and so I think

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industrial guys have or larger scale buildings have an advantage in that it's very easy to add

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solar panels to your building and you don't need the latest and greatest most efficient you can

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just throw a power generation source in your building and really change the dynamics of how

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your building operates so freaks this work was brought to you by good friends at bitkey as things

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been sponsored by our good friends at BitKey. Sup, Freaks? This rep was brought to you by our good

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friends at ligos finance celsius block by ftx they took your bitcoin and gambled it away ligos can't

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because they never hold it non-custodial lending on bitcoin's base layer your keys your collateral

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it's verifiable on chain go to ligos.finance tell them that tftc sent you and i think one of the um

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needles we need to thread our ties we need to knot here is and we were talking about this like

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you can do the combined cycle of your furnace and the Bitcoin mining,

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like the building will figure it out.

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But I think just really driving home,

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like the economics of the mining specifically,

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and like how you establish a new baseline cost and how you fit in the mining

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revenue into that as a rebate or a subsidy,

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or if you want to hold the Bitcoin and yes,

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your power bill may go up,

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but you've got this Bitcoin on the side and like,

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what's that look like?

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Yeah,

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there's a lot of different units we talked about.

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not very eloquently at the beginning here, like fuels and propane and gas and electric and all

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this stuff. At the end of the day, it's all just like dollars per unit of energy, dollars per

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kilowatt hour. Heat is energy. Electricity is energy, right? Your miner runs off of it. Your

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heating fuel runs off of it. All these different things. The baseline is there's some cost to run

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your miner. Maybe it costs you 10 cents a kilowatt hour, right? Maybe your propane heat,

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this is how we think, we will convert that dollar per gallon to an equivalent dollar per kilowatt

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hour. So then maybe your propane comes out to 9 cents a kilowatt hour. Okay, so your propane's

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just cheaper than your electric heat Bitcoin miner, because the Bitcoin miner is 10 cents

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a kilowatt hour, the propane's nine. But then the Bitcoin miner gets three, four, five cents per

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kilowatt hour back equivalent in sats, right? And you could obviously hold those sats for the long

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term and let those appreciate. But even if you just treat it as the raw hash value, the dollar

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nominated value in that moment in time, you kind of have this 40, 50% reduction in cost, net cost

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compared to the propane. That's obviously dynamically switching as the Bitcoin price

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changes every second. But that's why it's really important to bake this stuff into the building

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brain itself. It's not just like a one-time napkin math you run, right? But I think what you're

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pointing to, to tie the knot on it, Marty, is very interesting is there's going to be moments in time

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where the Bitcoin heater is 50% cheaper than propane. There's going to be moments in time

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where it's only 15% cheaper than propane. It's going to be changing week to week, depending on

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the Bitcoin price, maybe not too much over the long aggregate on average.

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Maybe you just want to stack sats.

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Could you believe, you know, that's the other thing.

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All this napkin math like kind of becomes a wash if you just wait full cycle.

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Right.

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And let the stats appreciate.

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So another operating mode I have it up in front of Dylan and I here is like one of our customers he didn want the logic to say the building chooses the cheapest heat in real time

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He wanted the logic to say the building prioritizes sat stacking heat over gas always.

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So even in the moments when the gas heat is cheaper, because the building knows this, the building brain knows this, it will still choose to heat with the miner first because he wants those sat.

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Yeah. And so last week there was a 10% downward difficulty adjustment, which like hash price didn't change that much, but hash value was awesome. So like my home brain started screaming at me, crank all the miners, like open the windows, turn on the fans, push all the heat outside because I have solar at home.

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and it's like there's this opportunity difficulty dropped you can stack 10 more in hash value

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okay that's um and you don't need the heat but it's like i want the sats and i have the energy

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let's go for it yeah because the input well not only that you have the miners the infrastructure

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in place to take advantage of it well it's kind of like the opposite of these utilities sending

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people letters saying like do not consume too much energy peasant like turn down your ac and

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we're the opposite we tell our customers to crank those motherfuckers get the bitcoin well that i

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mean and this gets to an important piece i mean you guys have been alluding to it and talking about

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but like the building brain i love this concept how does the building brain work i mean conceptually

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I think you've described it well. It runs the calculus of what makes the most sense to do at any particular point in time based off of the cost and profitability, the cost of the inputs, whether it's the fuel source or the electricity and the profitability of the mining at any given point in time.

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How does that home brain or that building brain work?

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I'll give some analogies to set the stage high level and then Dylan will talk about it because

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he built the dang thing. Back to that hybrid car analogy, like the car has to have a brain to decide

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when do I pull battery power? When do I use the gas power? When do I charge the battery? When do

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I put this much power through the motor? When we introduce this second device to a home that can

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provide heat and it can also provide Bitcoin, you need to connect it to all the other devices in the

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home, all the energy infrastructure so that it knows what the heck is going on and it can make

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those intelligent decisions. So that's the home brain. I think it makes sense for this machine to

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live locally, right? Just to comment quick on like local software, self-hosted. You'd think like

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smart home appliances, people think like your Google Nest or whatever, your ring, it goes to a

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subscription, you get the gadget, but the brain's not in the home. The brain is, you know, rings

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cloud server. And that introduces, you know, there's some sovereignty and privacy concerns

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there, but there's also just like complexity with sending that data out for all these things.

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Your hybrid car doesn't have the engine control unit at General Motors factory. It's in the car,

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right? So we think the brain should be in the home and that way it can actually physically

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wire to things, right? So now the brain will connect your fuels, your fuels. So the brain

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knows the cost of your natural gas. It knows the cost of your electric rate and maybe the time of

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use when that electric rate might change. It knows the Bitcoin price, the mining network difficulty,

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or just straight up hash price. You could kind of, those terms can equate to, can calculate hash

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price. It then also connects physically like wires to the thermostats. That's a good reason why the

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brain has to be there. You could do it digitally, but there's benefits in just having a straight up

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analog connection. So now it knows when you're calling for heat. And then it can also connect

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to the solar inverter. So it knows when you're generating energy, when you're calling for energy,

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heat, when you're generating energy, solar, it knows the Bitcoin price when it's profitable.

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It can combine all this data to say, well, I know the cost of the fuel to heat. I know the Bitcoin

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price. I know the electric rate and I know how much electricity we're generating. So all of that

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goes into one equation to say, here's the current effective cost of heat. Maybe that's cheaper than

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gas. Maybe it's not. All this to say is like we would connect all of these energy, heat, money,

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and information sources. That's how I would frame it. Those four things into one. It's really just

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like you could run it on a Raspberry Pi. It's open source software. It's not too complicated.

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And then you set the automations and the logic to determine in real time, depending on what you're doing.

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And you can go stir crazy wild west.

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Dylan offers Home Assistant.

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That's the software we use that we build our software in.

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He offers office hours every week.

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So bear with me because this is my favorite topic beyond Bitcoin and Bitcoin mining.

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I'm a huge champion.

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Home Assistant is open source software, huge community that runs on Raspberry Pi.

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It's essentially like a basic, an input aggregator and automation server.

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And when I say input aggregator, it's everything.

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Like phone locations, energy inputs, IoT devices, whatever you can think of, you can import into Home Assistant.

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Like temperature sensors throughout your house, whatever, minor control, your solar production, all of that.

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And I mean, it's so easy now because you can just hook up a clanker to it and say, hey, I want this automation.

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I have these inputs.

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What can we build?

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But it enables you to have a home brain that can react to anything.

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So when I first started getting into Bitcoin mining at home and home mining, I had a fleet of S9s throughout my house.

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And whenever my wife left, my brain would say, she's gone.

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Can I crank it?

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And it would just crank it because, I mean, it would just drive her insane to hear the S9s just whirring away.

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And so we have taken over the past year, we've kind of.

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I started at that framing of you can just have miners react to whatever.

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And so over the past year, we have worked to get the miners tied into thermostats because.

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It's intimidating for a lot of people to take a miner and duct it into their HVAC system.

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so maybe you just start with like an avalon mini 3 or a stealth miner or a slim 19 one of the

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850 watt max space heaters and like you like you know you want to do this cool so you just plug that

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in at home you grab a either hasminer or one of the extra g integrations for home assistant that

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lets you pair home assistant with the miner now you have full control and you can add like a

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a digital thermostat you can control on your phone.

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Now you have full control at home,

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minor reacts to the temperature sensors and the thermostat.

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And depending how loud it is and whether your wife is home or not.

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And so using all that logic,

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you have all these different inputs and that is what enables the dynamic

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switching of fuel sources. The, I have excess solar. Let me, can I go?

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difficulty just adjusted. You can make all this happen dynamically. You can add your input. So it

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asks you, Hey, should I do this? And then you have input and say, and what your building is doing,

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or it's really, the limit is your imagination. Cause it's just, I see the world in just

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inputs and outputs. You have all these inputs, let it rock. Yeah. Just a last comment here is like

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the building brain is

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where we arrived after we started thinking about

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miners as IoT devices, not as servers that are

407
00:34:13,516 --> 00:34:16,676
on constantly. And if you think about them through their API connection

408
00:34:16,676 --> 00:34:19,616
and you connect them with software to a tool like Home Assistant,

409
00:34:20,276 --> 00:34:22,816
then, as Dylan said, you can go wild west

410
00:34:22,816 --> 00:34:25,836
because now you can control them as intelligently

411
00:34:25,836 --> 00:34:28,656
or as unintelligently as you want. You're muted.

412
00:34:31,816 --> 00:34:32,536
I'm sorry.

413
00:34:32,536 --> 00:34:36,376
My neighbors have the landscapers here, so I've been muting so we don't get background noise.

414
00:34:36,676 --> 00:34:41,536
But Dylan, you touched on it. I think the best place to go from here is to really dig into hardware selection.

415
00:34:42,416 --> 00:34:45,136
What's the right miner for particular jobs?

416
00:34:47,656 --> 00:34:53,996
There's so many variables and inputs to making these decisions.

417
00:34:54,256 --> 00:34:59,016
And obviously, the hardware selection is one of the biggest ones, considering the upfront costs.

418
00:34:59,016 --> 00:35:01,736
How do you guys think about that?

419
00:35:02,436 --> 00:35:05,796
Yeah, the most important question is like, what's your goal?

420
00:35:06,596 --> 00:35:08,556
Are you doing space heaters?

421
00:35:08,876 --> 00:35:11,096
Are you integrating to a furnace?

422
00:35:11,196 --> 00:35:12,336
Are you integrating to a boiler?

423
00:35:12,756 --> 00:35:14,676
Are you just trying to mine excess solar?

424
00:35:14,896 --> 00:35:17,436
Can you have loud machines screaming in your garage?

425
00:35:18,336 --> 00:35:21,816
So depending on your goal, that determines,

426
00:35:21,816 --> 00:35:26,836
that's kind of like step one in determining which machine you need to integrate.

427
00:35:26,836 --> 00:35:35,476
For a lot of people, like I mentioned, it's scary to start or hire electricians or start ducting into your infrastructure, your house.

428
00:35:35,556 --> 00:35:36,416
So start with a space heater.

429
00:35:36,916 --> 00:35:37,716
That's easy.

430
00:35:39,076 --> 00:35:40,496
Very modular control.

431
00:35:40,656 --> 00:35:43,476
And so you can start with small rooms or stack a couple, whatever.

432
00:35:45,436 --> 00:35:51,836
And then I'd say the next requirement is knowing, do you have power available to run this thing?

433
00:35:51,836 --> 00:36:00,276
What's what infrastructure changes do you need to do to get this minor where you want it at whatever power level?

434
00:36:00,396 --> 00:36:06,216
Because if you know your duty cycle, your demand, all that factors in.

435
00:36:06,556 --> 00:36:13,176
So as Tyler mentioned earlier, there's kind of two sizing methods for HVAC.

436
00:36:14,016 --> 00:36:16,136
We call it baseload and peak.

437
00:36:17,116 --> 00:36:19,976
Baseload is designing for your average cool.

438
00:36:19,976 --> 00:36:30,756
so i think denver on average is like mid-20s 30 in wintertime and at my house a couple mini threes

439
00:36:30,756 --> 00:36:37,616
solve that for me they don't keep up when it's single digits outside and so that's when i have

440
00:36:37,616 --> 00:36:44,216
my furnace step in and so depending on what you want to spend to make up that delta you can plan

441
00:36:44,216 --> 00:36:49,296
for just the 30 degree days and that's this system or if you want to plan for colder days

442
00:36:49,296 --> 00:36:53,716
you need to stack additional miners, but then you run into this OPEC or this CapEx problem

443
00:36:53,716 --> 00:37:00,956
where you're buying machines that don't turn on all the time. And so it's like, why would you spend

444
00:37:00,956 --> 00:37:06,236
the extra money when you already have the existing infrastructure? And so part of what we do is use

445
00:37:06,236 --> 00:37:12,796
your utilities or you can use the calculator on our website to help determine sizing and what you

446
00:37:12,796 --> 00:37:18,756
need to do to meet your demand. Yeah, I think we gave an example in the playbook. If you take a

447
00:37:18,756 --> 00:37:24,676
look at it and give it a read, you'll see, you know, your sizing for baseload might say you need

448
00:37:24,676 --> 00:37:32,016
5,000 watts. And so you could buy one 5,000 watt miner that's new, and maybe it's three grand,

449
00:37:32,016 --> 00:37:38,636
or maybe you could buy two 3,000 watt miners. S19s are like 50 bucks right now, right? And then

450
00:37:38,636 --> 00:37:42,096
that's 6,000 watts. So that's the kind of thing that comes into mind when you're selecting the

451
00:37:42,096 --> 00:37:47,756
right hardware for the job. Your goal, your heating application, are you heating water or air,

452
00:37:47,756 --> 00:37:54,376
right that's a big one um we should also say control right control absolutely not all of the

453
00:37:54,376 --> 00:37:58,636
miners um and i'm sure we'll get to this like they're designed for data centers and they

454
00:37:58,636 --> 00:38:03,396
most of the manufacturers all the manufacturers basically aside from proto are our chinese

455
00:38:03,396 --> 00:38:09,036
manufacturers with closed source firmware so some of them um have aftermarket options some don't

456
00:38:09,036 --> 00:38:15,456
some play nicer to talk to you know home control software like home assistance some of them don't

457
00:38:15,456 --> 00:38:17,116
So the control is a big one.

458
00:38:17,176 --> 00:38:18,496
What firmware options are available?

459
00:38:19,016 --> 00:38:20,056
What kind of heat it delivers?

460
00:38:20,556 --> 00:38:22,136
What kind of power requirements it has?

461
00:38:22,196 --> 00:38:23,536
Could you even have that at your house?

462
00:38:24,116 --> 00:38:25,036
And the sizing.

463
00:38:25,556 --> 00:38:26,096
Sup, freaks?

464
00:38:26,336 --> 00:38:29,136
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465
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466
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467
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468
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469
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470
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471
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472
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been drinking it pretty consistently every day

473
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474
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475
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This is the pink lemonade.

476
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They have orange here.

477
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478
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They have these creatine packets as well.

479
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They're about to launch a bunch more flavors, lemon, lime, watermelon, and a few others as well.

480
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481
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482
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483
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Seriously, game changer in our house.

484
00:39:30,044 --> 00:39:30,744
My wife drinks it.

485
00:39:30,884 --> 00:39:31,464
I drink it.

486
00:39:31,804 --> 00:39:32,964
Our boys drink it.

487
00:39:33,064 --> 00:39:33,664
Stay hydrated.

488
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It's a beautiful thing.

489
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Freaks, look at me.

490
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I'm glowing.

491
00:39:36,824 --> 00:39:39,144
I've got like an angel's halo going around me.

492
00:39:39,364 --> 00:39:40,124
You know why that is?

493
00:39:40,144 --> 00:39:40,964
I feel good.

494
00:39:41,024 --> 00:39:41,884
I feel taken care of.

495
00:39:41,944 --> 00:39:43,664
I feel blessed, healthy, happy.

496
00:39:43,944 --> 00:39:45,364
And that is because I'm a CrowdHealth member.

497
00:39:45,624 --> 00:39:48,584
My family and I have been CrowdHealth members for five years now.

498
00:39:48,804 --> 00:39:50,844
Literally this month, five years ago, we joined CrowdHealth.

499
00:39:50,944 --> 00:39:51,764
We've had two babies.

500
00:39:52,044 --> 00:39:55,484
We've had multiple health events, and we're never going back to health insurance.

501
00:39:55,484 --> 00:40:00,524
CrowdHealth is crowdfunded healthcare. So you sign up for CrowdHealth, you pay a monthly fee,

502
00:40:00,704 --> 00:40:06,304
you help out with other people's bills. And it's significantly cheaper than health insurance.

503
00:40:06,424 --> 00:40:11,544
We were on COBRA. It's a family of three. When I left my last job before I went full-time to TFTC,

504
00:40:12,144 --> 00:40:18,064
went on the CrowdHealth. Now as a family of five, we pay, I believe, $700 a month.

505
00:40:18,224 --> 00:40:21,304
It's significantly cheaper. They're going to negotiate prices lower for you.

506
00:40:21,304 --> 00:40:28,064
they've consistently negotiated healthcare prices as much as 50 60 80 in many cases they help out

507
00:40:28,064 --> 00:40:32,284
with babies you have a pregnancy you pay the first three thousand dollars and the crowd covers the

508
00:40:32,284 --> 00:40:37,604
rest um if you have a regular health event you pay five hundred dollars and the crowd pays the

509
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rest go to joincrowdhealth.com sign up today use the code tftc opt out of health insurance i'm

510
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511
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the first three months that you're on the crowd health platform in the community bitcoiners you

512
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found sovereign money now find sovereign health and sovereign health care i think that's the most

513
00:40:59,844 --> 00:41:04,484
important thing to to recognize if you're thinking about making this decision that you guys have built

514
00:41:04,484 --> 00:41:08,824
the tools to really i think the sizing is most important just you're just running the calculus

515
00:41:08,824 --> 00:41:14,464
in my head like how do i implement this in a way where i can stack more bitcoin or lower my

516
00:41:14,464 --> 00:41:21,444
my electricity bill yeah we're working on some some more tools to put on our website right now

517
00:41:21,444 --> 00:41:25,384
we have like a simple calculator that helps you do the energy arbitrage so we mentioned that earlier

518
00:41:25,384 --> 00:41:31,524
in the episode um just like what does propane heat cost compared to a bitcoin heat right and

519
00:41:31,524 --> 00:41:35,684
it does all these unit conversions that we got bogged down over it does that for you so this is

520
00:41:35,684 --> 00:41:40,624
like napkin math that's what's on our website now we we don't have a public calculator yet for the

521
00:41:40,624 --> 00:41:45,904
sizing. That's a little harder because it depends on how much heat you use. Most people don't have

522
00:41:45,904 --> 00:41:50,304
their bills on hand, but we do want to get towards that. So definitely stay tuned there for that.

523
00:41:51,944 --> 00:41:56,184
And I pulled this up. I feel like this is pertinent to what we're discussing now,

524
00:41:56,244 --> 00:42:02,064
daily minor on hours versus gas on hours. And basically highlighting the different costs

525
00:42:02,064 --> 00:42:06,404
across different timescales. Yes. Yeah. Dylan, you want to talk about that?

526
00:42:06,404 --> 00:42:10,184
Yeah, this was kind of our first install.

527
00:42:11,904 --> 00:42:23,344
This customer has an M64 and how it works is it has a heat core enclosure, which is just it provides a pump, a dry cooler and a heat exchanger.

528
00:42:23,664 --> 00:42:31,724
And what we did was we added a radiator to that loop without a fan that just slotted into his ductwork.

529
00:42:31,724 --> 00:42:35,884
And his circulator fan pulls the heat off of that, distributes it around the house.

530
00:42:35,884 --> 00:42:40,984
If there's any excess before going back to the miner, it gets pushed out with the dry cooler.

531
00:42:41,764 --> 00:42:48,804
But what was interesting is that since we installed that, that was his primary heat source.

532
00:42:49,184 --> 00:42:52,604
We kind of expected the furnace to turn on a bit more.

533
00:42:53,124 --> 00:42:57,824
But as you can see in this graph, there's like just a couple of blips over this time period.

534
00:42:57,824 --> 00:43:06,564
And I'm very confident that was user error and the customer changing the band of the set temperature.

535
00:43:07,724 --> 00:43:10,144
And so how his system works is that.

536
00:43:11,044 --> 00:43:24,864
The miner is plumbed, is wired as stage one heating, and so that will operate as long as the current temperature is not greater than four degrees off of the set point temperature.

537
00:43:24,864 --> 00:43:31,024
if it is greater than four degrees his furnace kicks on and just tops it up once it gets back

538
00:43:31,024 --> 00:43:39,884
into that dead band minor it's minor only and so we had no complaints he was comfortable uh i mean

539
00:43:39,884 --> 00:43:45,944
it's awesome it's one thing to do it on paper but it's another thing to see it in the wild

540
00:43:45,944 --> 00:43:54,524
actually working as expected and so this customer loved it he has a minor just cranking away whenever

541
00:43:54,524 --> 00:44:02,484
he needs heat. It's also an example of like that miner is technically like 10 times smaller than

542
00:44:02,484 --> 00:44:09,004
his furnace in terms of total possible energy output, that one miner. But this is a testament

543
00:44:09,004 --> 00:44:14,384
to how we size, where we say it's not worth getting that. Like, imagine if we bought him 10

544
00:44:14,384 --> 00:44:18,564
miners, that would have cost him a fortune, right? And I don't even think we could get enough power

545
00:44:18,564 --> 00:44:24,784
in there for that. We got one miner and it solved 99% of his heating demand over those months.

546
00:44:24,944 --> 00:44:28,424
And the gas never had to kick on. So that's just a testament. Like most heating systems are

547
00:44:28,424 --> 00:44:33,804
oversized for that worst case condition. So that proves that well. The sizing though,

548
00:44:34,164 --> 00:44:38,104
and I mentioned this before we switched to that chart is like, we're going to have some tools

549
00:44:38,104 --> 00:44:41,864
coming out on this. It's a little bit harder because you can't just really call your standard

550
00:44:41,864 --> 00:44:48,084
HVAC guy and ask about like, Hey, what size Bitcoin miner do I need? You know, we've found

551
00:44:48,084 --> 00:44:53,524
that most of the heating industry is sized based on your peak load. Same with solar, actually.

552
00:44:53,864 --> 00:44:59,604
Right. And so this notion of not sizing for peak load, like this buddy system, this hybrid car

553
00:44:59,604 --> 00:45:05,204
approach, hybrid building, there aren't that many people that size that way. So it's just,

554
00:45:05,304 --> 00:45:08,604
it's been a little bit of an uphill battle to kind of communicate that to the trades.

555
00:45:10,324 --> 00:45:14,804
Yeah. Well, I want to bring this up to just like really drive this point home. You guys shared this

556
00:45:14,804 --> 00:45:21,104
data too. And I think this really does a good job of really driving home the comparison rates

557
00:45:21,104 --> 00:45:28,764
for the effective heat costs. Yeah, that's an output from our calculator at calc.xgheat.com.

558
00:45:29,584 --> 00:45:36,124
And it pulls in, you set your location and it pulls in the average costs for your state,

559
00:45:36,124 --> 00:45:44,004
or you can overwrite it with your actual costs. And you say, oh, I have a S19, I have an M64,

560
00:45:44,004 --> 00:45:46,024
or whichever model you can put in a custom,

561
00:45:46,584 --> 00:45:48,064
if you have like a mixed system,

562
00:45:48,564 --> 00:45:49,904
and you can get a direct comparison

563
00:45:49,904 --> 00:45:52,264
as to what is your fuel cost,

564
00:45:52,684 --> 00:45:53,444
what's your subsidy,

565
00:45:53,624 --> 00:45:54,744
what's your breakeven rate,

566
00:45:55,104 --> 00:45:57,364
all these different values to show

567
00:45:57,364 --> 00:45:59,384
how the hash rate heating system

568
00:45:59,384 --> 00:46:01,084
can compare to your existing system.

569
00:46:02,244 --> 00:46:02,984
Yeah, and so with this,

570
00:46:02,984 --> 00:46:05,744
it's a 45% savings under a heating bill.

571
00:46:06,164 --> 00:46:09,924
Yeah, and so this customer in this snapshot,

572
00:46:10,404 --> 00:46:11,984
he already had electric heat.

573
00:46:11,984 --> 00:46:18,624
and so it was a no-brainer for him he's just switching from one electric heat source to

574
00:46:18,624 --> 00:46:24,324
another electric heat source and if your cost is the same and now you're getting a subsidy via

575
00:46:24,324 --> 00:46:31,044
bitcoin mining rewards it's a crazy savings it's the easiest to switch if you have electrical heat

576
00:46:31,044 --> 00:46:36,604
it is the easiest to switch to bitcoin mining yeah and how many we're just using one

577
00:46:36,604 --> 00:46:44,944
one miner here it looks like right this one is two s19s two s19s yeah and you can buy them

578
00:46:44,944 --> 00:46:49,604
what are they going for these days take 50 bucks and get i mean it's like 50 to 100 bucks to get

579
00:46:49,604 --> 00:46:58,244
vanilla s19 yeah which is silly it is silly i mean that gets into we'll get to that later like

580
00:46:58,244 --> 00:47:05,184
the dynamics of the current mining environment considering all the mega miners getting kicked

581
00:47:05,184 --> 00:47:08,604
off-grid by all the hyperscalers.

582
00:47:08,604 --> 00:47:14,244
But before we get to that, I think what I really wanted to drill into

583
00:47:14,244 --> 00:47:17,244
is something that you brought up, Tyler, which is the HVAC companies.

584
00:47:17,484 --> 00:47:21,344
They don't understand this concept of the hybrid smart home yet.

585
00:47:21,904 --> 00:47:24,404
And I think that's one of the big looming questions

586
00:47:24,404 --> 00:47:26,644
that you guys are obviously trying to solve,

587
00:47:26,764 --> 00:47:31,164
but making this a popular setup for most people.

588
00:47:31,304 --> 00:47:34,824
I think the value of this playbook is going to be for that niche audience

589
00:47:34,824 --> 00:47:39,644
who's into Bitcoin and like, yeah, we're willing to put in the work and the time and the capital

590
00:47:39,644 --> 00:47:44,464
to do this because not only do we think it's cool, like we're thoroughly convinced we've

591
00:47:44,464 --> 00:47:48,404
seen the numbers, we've run the numbers and it does make economic sense.

592
00:47:48,404 --> 00:47:54,224
But then what do you think is like the critical tipping point to go from that niche heat punk

593
00:47:54,224 --> 00:48:00,724
audience that we have here at TFTC and that you guys have at pod 256 to the broader public?

594
00:48:00,724 --> 00:48:12,064
you know i think it's been hard to convey this sizing technology approach to a tradesman just

595
00:48:12,064 --> 00:48:16,164
to set the background here like when you need a heating system or you want to upgrade most people

596
00:48:16,164 --> 00:48:19,784
don't do it themselves they don't install themselves they call a guy right they call

597
00:48:19,784 --> 00:48:25,144
professional a tradesman he's certified and so that's who we have to teach really right you know

598
00:48:25,144 --> 00:48:32,844
that's the B2B path one, but also it's just your distribution channel. I mean, you could find like

599
00:48:32,844 --> 00:48:37,684
the people that are directly buying furnaces and water heaters and wrenching on themselves.

600
00:48:38,284 --> 00:48:42,344
I would categorize those as like the Bitcoin audience that's listening and loving the show.

601
00:48:43,064 --> 00:48:50,164
Shout out. I think for the other distribution path, what did we think was an interesting path

602
00:48:50,164 --> 00:48:53,104
feeling that we want to check out. It's like the whole home humidifier.

603
00:48:53,824 --> 00:49:01,224
These add-on kits. So this notion of strapping a black box and saying it offers X, Y, and Z benefits

604
00:49:01,224 --> 00:49:08,024
is not a foreign concept. It is new with Bitcoin, but people get whole home humidifiers. This is an

605
00:49:08,024 --> 00:49:14,504
auxiliary system. It has some control. Most of them are cloud. And then they marry to the thermostat.

606
00:49:14,504 --> 00:49:19,504
That's not so different from what we're doing. It's like a strap-on kit, a backpack that straps

607
00:49:19,504 --> 00:49:25,544
to your furnace, a small thing that sits next to your boiler, right? Something that plumbs into

608
00:49:25,544 --> 00:49:31,284
your water heater. And then there's some control setup to marry it into the rest. So I think if we

609
00:49:31,284 --> 00:49:39,344
can frame it that way, then we'll find the success to say, I think we have to solve the sizing part.

610
00:49:39,704 --> 00:49:44,364
That's actually what one of my main takeaways you'll see at the conclusion of the playbook is

611
00:49:44,364 --> 00:49:50,804
like in each of our four case studies, we were very proud with how our sizing technique played

612
00:49:50,804 --> 00:49:56,524
out. You know, no one's, no one's like, this is totally the wrong size. The miner only runs

613
00:49:56,524 --> 00:50:02,124
and it can't keep up and the gas is always on. So we're happy with the sizing. What I think is

614
00:50:02,124 --> 00:50:05,324
going to happen is we're going to start to see with more installs and more data collection,

615
00:50:05,324 --> 00:50:10,604
we're going to, we're going to get our rule of thumb, our finger in the wind estimate. So that's

616
00:50:10,604 --> 00:50:15,204
how most of the heating system industry works. It's like, how many square feet is your house?

617
00:50:15,404 --> 00:50:19,824
Oh, you need a furnace this big, right? I think we at Exergy in the hatchery heating industry are

618
00:50:19,824 --> 00:50:25,044
going to come to, oh, how big is your house? You need a miner this big, right? And so when we get

619
00:50:25,044 --> 00:50:30,724
to that rule of thumb, that's where I think we can kind of bake those into these buddy system

620
00:50:30,724 --> 00:50:35,984
kits, like the whole home humidifiers, where it's just like straight on the label, the distribution's

621
00:50:35,984 --> 00:50:43,404
easy the hvac tech reads it it goes oh this mining system smart home building control unit is good

622
00:50:43,404 --> 00:50:49,024
for homes 3 000 to 4 000 square feet done and like you don't have to make it any more complex than

623
00:50:49,024 --> 00:50:55,704
that does that make sense it makes total sense uh yeah i mean like the map is the terror we're like

624
00:50:55,704 --> 00:51:01,684
figuring out what the map looks like right now in this whole budding industry and i think you guys

625
00:51:01,684 --> 00:51:04,784
are doing very important work as well i was happy to partner with you guys on this playbook

626
00:51:04,784 --> 00:51:10,964
and help you guys get it out there because this is, I mean, we've talked about this, Tyler and Dylan,

627
00:51:11,104 --> 00:51:16,204
when we were in Vegas, like it is time for this stuff to happen. And I think the timing is perfect

628
00:51:16,204 --> 00:51:21,984
considering what's happening for the industrial scale miners. Like, I feel like there's gonna be

629
00:51:21,984 --> 00:51:30,644
a flood of basics out of the hands of individuals and smaller operators. But Dylan, it looks like

630
00:51:30,644 --> 00:51:37,164
you wanted to say something before we get into that yeah and so i think pushing the needle on

631
00:51:37,164 --> 00:51:45,504
hvec guys wanting to install this is definitely the right path to take i'd want to like call out

632
00:51:45,504 --> 00:51:52,664
i do envision a world in which a solar salesman knocks on your door and they're also pairing this

633
00:51:52,664 --> 00:51:59,744
instead of upselling you for a battery they're upselling you for a minor kit that just consumes

634
00:51:59,744 --> 00:52:02,904
your excess because I grew up in California.

635
00:52:02,904 --> 00:52:04,944
They sold a crazy solar deal of like,

636
00:52:04,992 --> 00:52:10,272
you're gonna make a bunch of money you're gonna offset everything it's gonna be amazing utopia

637
00:52:10,272 --> 00:52:16,492
um and now they're just rugging everybody who had solar panels in california their their buyback

638
00:52:16,492 --> 00:52:22,992
rates are pennies on the dollar and it's like cool now everyone's mad about the solar system

639
00:52:22,992 --> 00:52:29,212
it doesn't detract from its utility but it's like i'm not getting paid back from the grid but you

640
00:52:29,212 --> 00:52:34,772
sold me i was going to so let me find this other monetization route and so it'll be interesting to

641
00:52:34,772 --> 00:52:42,612
as these develop, not only as hash rate heating systems, but solar auxiliaries and pairing in that

642
00:52:42,612 --> 00:52:48,012
way. That gave me one last thought here too, which is, I'm glad you brought that up, Dylan. Solar as

643
00:52:48,012 --> 00:52:54,172
well, combined energy systems, smart energy, redundancy, all these things, right? Fancy,

644
00:52:54,172 --> 00:53:01,572
smart control, brains. This to me says like Tesla Powerwall, Tesla solar product ecosystem. So after

645
00:53:01,572 --> 00:53:06,532
Bitcoin or that's who I view the next target market is. It's these people that are already

646
00:53:06,532 --> 00:53:12,132
spending money and want the cool tech, right? Maybe they're not as Bitcoin maxis, but they

647
00:53:12,132 --> 00:53:18,452
want the tech and they understand the technological importance and the value add. I think they will

648
00:53:18,452 --> 00:53:25,072
be the next target before we scale into like mass consumerism, offsetting everyone's costs,

649
00:53:25,072 --> 00:53:30,492
you know, cheap machines, cheap products to target the masses.

650
00:53:30,492 --> 00:53:32,212
I think that's the last one to solve.

651
00:53:32,712 --> 00:53:35,492
Yeah. I mean, the data is here at 3.3 X multiplier on

652
00:53:35,492 --> 00:53:38,212
the solar is pretty insane.

653
00:53:39,192 --> 00:53:39,392
Yeah.

654
00:53:40,612 --> 00:53:42,592
Yeah. I mean, if you compare it at the unit level,

655
00:53:43,052 --> 00:53:49,012
it's like one cent versus 3.3 cents, but still that is that multiple exists

656
00:53:49,012 --> 00:53:52,912
and it's there. And so that would occur regardless the size of your system.

657
00:53:52,912 --> 00:54:00,392
and it's working it's working well for this customer uh i know we're developing still on

658
00:54:00,392 --> 00:54:09,872
getting it's kind of like a pid control so you have dynamic step down of the minor power limit

659
00:54:09,872 --> 00:54:16,012
and so the wattage kind of traces your surplus going back to the grid and so with home assist

660
00:54:16,012 --> 00:54:20,392
you can have all these inputs you know what you're generating what you're sending to the grid what

661
00:54:20,392 --> 00:54:28,152
you're consuming from the grid and my goal is to get the net export of any solar system

662
00:54:28,152 --> 00:54:36,012
as close to zero without going over as possible which is hard because minor firmware lags you can

663
00:54:36,012 --> 00:54:41,332
say cool go 3 000 watts and say all right give me half an hour to get tuned up and get actually to

664
00:54:41,332 --> 00:54:50,152
that wattage level um and then shoot there's one other thing uh and then having the system also

665
00:54:50,152 --> 00:54:56,152
react to, oh, you turned on the air conditioning. Oh, you turn on this, your washing machine's

666
00:54:56,152 --> 00:55:02,152
going and having the miner react to just the whole home system's power generation and just

667
00:55:02,152 --> 00:55:08,672
kind of be that last fire of energy before going back to the grid. I want to add a comment here

668
00:55:08,672 --> 00:55:13,432
though, which is so cool. Shout out to the clankers. Home Assistant, the open source,

669
00:55:13,712 --> 00:55:19,572
smart home building brain software we use, we think of it like an aggregator. You can connect

670
00:55:19,572 --> 00:55:25,032
Ring, Google Nest, whatever. We just built the add-ons to add miners with all your other IoT

671
00:55:25,032 --> 00:55:32,432
devices, blinds, lights, etc. There's an MCP connection. I was on Claude. I gave it a draft

672
00:55:32,432 --> 00:55:36,692
of this playbook. And I had the home assistant set up at my house. And there's these different

673
00:55:36,692 --> 00:55:40,592
examples we give of what you might want to control for, solar monetization, offsetting, heating,

674
00:55:40,712 --> 00:55:46,232
right? I was like, read this playbook, look at all the sensors at my house, find the Bitcoin miner,

675
00:55:46,232 --> 00:55:50,472
build all these automations. I want to do case three. I want to do maximize

676
00:55:50,472 --> 00:55:54,412
sats. I want to do cheapest BTU. We labeled these

677
00:55:54,412 --> 00:55:57,472
nice and clear in the report.

678
00:55:58,472 --> 00:56:01,992
With AI tools, the barrier to entry is as low as ever.

679
00:56:03,332 --> 00:56:05,352
I don't think we can

680
00:56:05,352 --> 00:56:10,612
overstate that point right there. Again, going back to the opportunity.

681
00:56:11,532 --> 00:56:14,452
BitQuinter has been talking about this opportunity forever, but with

682
00:56:14,452 --> 00:56:17,832
the AI tools and IoT open source projects

683
00:56:17,832 --> 00:56:22,432
like the ones you guys

684
00:56:22,432 --> 00:56:26,432
are building on. Once you get the hardware

685
00:56:26,432 --> 00:56:30,632
and you get everything rigged up, actually running it is going to be

686
00:56:30,632 --> 00:56:34,432
less intellectually and it's going to take

687
00:56:34,432 --> 00:56:38,332
less intellectual capital than people perceive, especially if you have the clanker set up.

688
00:56:38,492 --> 00:56:42,252
I mean, that does preclude sort of dual adoption

689
00:56:42,252 --> 00:56:45,612
of clankers and this infrastructure at the same time.

690
00:56:45,612 --> 00:56:49,692
I think we can all agree that

691
00:56:49,692 --> 00:56:52,792
adoption curve is going to be up and to the right for the foreseeable future.

692
00:56:53,892 --> 00:56:57,412
I think what you guys are doing, doing the hard work to set up all this infrastructure

693
00:56:57,412 --> 00:57:01,592
and figuring out the sizing is doing it

694
00:57:01,592 --> 00:57:05,652
now and getting in on the ground floors. We're seeing this adoption

695
00:57:05,652 --> 00:57:09,772
wave of AI and as this mega-minor

696
00:57:09,772 --> 00:57:14,992
apocalypse is happening, the timing can be more perfect to begin implementing this across the

697
00:57:14,992 --> 00:57:22,992
country. Yeah, it's doable. It's doable. It's challenging, mostly because the miners don't like

698
00:57:22,992 --> 00:57:29,952
behaving like IoT devices. But I agree with you. I think it's worth figuring out these barriers

699
00:57:29,952 --> 00:57:35,972
right now. Why wait? And we know there's lots of open source mining developments to kind of solve

700
00:57:35,972 --> 00:57:39,172
those technical problems. And then in the same vein to sizing, it's like, these are what are,

701
00:57:39,512 --> 00:57:42,872
this is what I would categorize as not technical problems. These are like people problems and

702
00:57:42,872 --> 00:57:49,972
education problems. Right. Um, so there's these two veins. Yeah. So, I mean, let's get into like

703
00:57:49,972 --> 00:57:54,652
the mega minor apocalypse. What do you, what do you, how do you see, foresee this playing out?

704
00:57:54,652 --> 00:58:04,352
Like, it seems pretty clear to me that just on grid hyperscale monetization of electricity

705
00:58:04,352 --> 00:58:06,412
in the world of compute,

706
00:58:08,032 --> 00:58:10,972
AI compute is going to be Bitcoin mining on grid

707
00:58:10,972 --> 00:58:12,092
10 times out of 10.

708
00:58:12,472 --> 00:58:14,492
Yeah, what did Brad Cuddy say at Thames?

709
00:58:14,732 --> 00:58:16,472
They're like 60x.

710
00:58:16,772 --> 00:58:16,972
Yeah.

711
00:58:17,892 --> 00:58:19,172
Dollars per megawatt hour.

712
00:58:20,232 --> 00:58:21,012
It's wild.

713
00:58:21,752 --> 00:58:23,152
Bitcoin mining, people always talk about

714
00:58:23,152 --> 00:58:24,652
how it's the apex predator.

715
00:58:24,932 --> 00:58:25,912
It's ruthlessly competitive.

716
00:58:26,132 --> 00:58:28,452
It always is going to find this lower energy state.

717
00:58:28,552 --> 00:58:29,912
That's my engineer brain thinking.

718
00:58:31,452 --> 00:58:34,152
Meaning it's always going to settle to the cheapest power

719
00:58:34,152 --> 00:58:38,672
the cheapest operation, right? I'll say that. I won't say cheapest power. I'll say cheapest

720
00:58:38,672 --> 00:58:44,472
operation. The reason I make that distinction is like, what's the best mining operation? Well,

721
00:58:44,492 --> 00:58:48,832
the best mining operation is one that's not seeking profitability, right? That's the bid

722
00:58:48,832 --> 00:58:54,472
hex on your desk. Okay. And so if there's a mining operation that's not seeking profitability,

723
00:58:54,472 --> 00:58:59,692
that could be subsidizing your heat load, right? Or that could just be running off the excess solar

724
00:58:59,692 --> 00:59:03,332
or turning on when it is profitable in those brief moments.

725
00:59:03,332 --> 00:59:05,572
So the building integrated mining, I think,

726
00:59:05,732 --> 00:59:09,772
is a future case for a lot of hash rate

727
00:59:09,772 --> 00:59:12,012
that will survive for the long run

728
00:59:12,012 --> 00:59:14,112
because it's a sunk cost mentality.

729
00:59:14,192 --> 00:59:14,992
I'm going to do it anyways.

730
00:59:15,112 --> 00:59:16,312
I'm not going to shut off the heat load.

731
00:59:16,392 --> 00:59:17,412
I want to be warm, right?

732
00:59:17,812 --> 00:59:19,632
I'm not going to stop the sun from shining

733
00:59:19,632 --> 00:59:21,112
if there's excess power, right?

734
00:59:21,272 --> 00:59:22,872
And I'm not in control of hash price.

735
00:59:22,932 --> 00:59:24,932
So if it rips, maybe my system at my house

736
00:59:24,932 --> 00:59:25,832
is going to be profitable.

737
00:59:27,092 --> 00:59:29,632
And this is just something that the large on-grid miners

738
00:59:29,632 --> 00:59:33,292
they don't have that luxury because they're not connected to this combined energy system.

739
00:59:33,292 --> 00:59:39,192
They're seeking this one path, right? Which is, I have to run my operation, my electric

740
00:59:39,192 --> 00:59:51,182
costs my operating costs have to be cheaper than the Bitcoin profit that this operation produces And that kind of as we seen becoming more challenging The machines are getting more efficient There are

741
00:59:51,182 --> 00:59:56,542
large megaminers like Electron Energy, right, that are long megamining on grid. So I want to

742
00:59:56,542 --> 01:00:02,882
make sure to shout them out. But at the same time, the AI space race is happening and they're just

743
01:00:02,882 --> 01:00:07,082
paying way more. And so for these large publicly traded companies, it's their fiduciary responsibility

744
01:00:07,082 --> 01:00:08,622
to just pivot to that.

745
01:00:08,762 --> 01:00:10,242
I mean, we're constrained for compute.

746
01:00:11,622 --> 01:00:13,462
I'll wrap and hand it to Dylan by saying,

747
01:00:13,562 --> 01:00:15,342
like, I'm bullish on this for home mining.

748
01:00:15,482 --> 01:00:19,142
I think mining has this interesting character arc story

749
01:00:19,142 --> 01:00:21,962
where it started on the nodes in the laptops

750
01:00:21,962 --> 01:00:23,722
and to the desktops and GPUs,

751
01:00:23,722 --> 01:00:25,162
and then it got more industrialized

752
01:00:25,162 --> 01:00:28,202
through network effects, economies of scale.

753
01:00:29,322 --> 01:00:31,342
And then now it's kind of at this choke point

754
01:00:31,342 --> 01:00:32,322
where it's going to come back home

755
01:00:32,322 --> 01:00:34,202
and settle back down to these low energy states.

756
01:00:34,202 --> 01:00:51,082
But the challenge I see is if the large miners aren't buying the 10,000 machines from Bitmain that are designed for data centers, then they're going to have to start selling systems that are better for these energy infrastructure applications, right?

757
01:00:51,162 --> 01:00:56,342
So solar, heating, profitability, controllability with smart home brains, all these things.

758
01:00:56,542 --> 01:00:58,602
It's a totally different class of product.

759
01:00:58,602 --> 01:01:07,062
And so what I'm wondering is going to play out is like, if no one's buying the slop from the mega mining manufacturers, they're going to come to the smaller guys.

760
01:01:07,062 --> 01:01:10,102
And then the smaller guys like us are going to say, your shit sucks.

761
01:01:10,242 --> 01:01:11,162
I don't want it.

762
01:01:11,502 --> 01:01:14,522
And so that's something I'm looking out for right now.

763
01:01:16,702 --> 01:01:17,802
Kind of a different take.

764
01:01:20,522 --> 01:01:23,022
The mega miner apocalypse is music to my ears.

765
01:01:23,022 --> 01:01:30,342
like whenever there's an announcement of over pivoting the ai it's like awesome hash value is

766
01:01:30,342 --> 01:01:37,122
going to go up for me network sure network hash rates going down difficulty goes down but that's

767
01:01:37,122 --> 01:01:43,822
awesome for me a home miner um i do think the future will be interesting as there's not billions

768
01:01:43,822 --> 01:01:48,862
of dollars in asic sales of these industrial miners as tyler was mentioning but for now in

769
01:01:48,862 --> 01:01:58,422
the interim, you can run S21s, 19s, et cetera, at home. It's when you get into these three-phase

770
01:01:58,422 --> 01:02:03,582
systems that you can't use that at home. Yeah. The retrofitting won't last forever.

771
01:02:03,942 --> 01:02:09,642
This S19 for 50 bucks, we're at the point now where Bitmain isn't even releasing the S23.

772
01:02:10,162 --> 01:02:14,822
They're only releasing three-phase hydro miners pretty much, right? And no residential home in

773
01:02:14,822 --> 01:02:18,182
North America has three phase power. So yeah.

774
01:02:19,002 --> 01:02:23,622
But for the weirdos that want to retrofit now and strap them on,

775
01:02:23,682 --> 01:02:24,962
it's like the best time. You're like, Oh,

776
01:02:24,962 --> 01:02:27,082
I've been waiting to buy this minor. It's been expensive.

777
01:02:27,222 --> 01:02:30,602
Oh crap. Prices came way down on the minor Bitcoin too.

778
01:02:32,062 --> 01:02:35,402
But now I have this affordable entry point. So like right now,

779
01:02:35,782 --> 01:02:37,142
probably, I mean,

780
01:02:37,142 --> 01:02:39,862
prices will probably go down as more mega miners turn off,

781
01:02:39,922 --> 01:02:43,222
but pricing looks great and approachable right now for a lot of people who want

782
01:02:43,222 --> 01:02:44,182
to get started on this.

783
01:02:44,822 --> 01:02:51,862
But I do think the future will be interesting as the MegaMiner slop is not usable.

784
01:02:52,442 --> 01:02:58,622
And either they have to pivot and provide better firmware and better hardware,

785
01:02:58,622 --> 01:03:04,782
or open source initiatives take off and enable people to build whatever form factor

786
01:03:04,782 --> 01:03:09,942
and whatever control they want on these systems to better integrate into your home

787
01:03:09,942 --> 01:03:11,162
or to your use case or whatever.

788
01:03:11,162 --> 01:03:21,462
if you had to wave the magic wand and produce a a sort of supply chain for

789
01:03:21,462 --> 01:03:23,542
asics in the future what does it look like

790
01:03:23,542 --> 01:03:31,342
i mean yeah uh instead of having desolder chips off existing hashboards to build system it's like

791
01:03:31,342 --> 01:03:36,722
here's the real here's how you control it have a great time playing with your bitcoins

792
01:03:36,722 --> 01:03:43,702
I think we need chips and we need an open source firmware that works on all of them akin to Linux.

793
01:03:43,942 --> 01:03:48,122
Right. So this is this is Intel and AMD. That's what's minor in micro BT.

794
01:03:48,682 --> 01:03:52,742
They both sell chips. Linux runs on both chips. You don't have to.

795
01:03:52,862 --> 01:03:56,102
There are proprietary OSs like Mac OS and Windows.

796
01:03:56,402 --> 01:04:01,242
There can be proprietary firmwares with dev fees that offer fancy features or better tuning.

797
01:04:01,242 --> 01:04:11,122
But the bare bones minimum that we really need is to make the Bitcoin mining industry reflect the rest of the electronics industry, which is someone sells chips a la carte.

798
01:04:11,702 --> 01:04:19,802
And there is an open source, editable, inspectable, documented firmware to talk to those chips.

799
01:04:21,262 --> 01:04:21,822
Are we getting closer?

800
01:04:22,122 --> 01:04:24,082
Somebody working on that?

801
01:04:25,042 --> 01:04:25,342
Yes.

802
01:04:25,622 --> 01:04:25,942
Yeah.

803
01:04:26,082 --> 01:04:29,942
Shout out to Ryan, one of our engineers at the 256 Foundation.

804
01:04:30,562 --> 01:04:34,762
He is the lead architect of Mojina, which is an open source firmware.

805
01:04:35,822 --> 01:04:37,002
Another shout out to AI.

806
01:04:37,002 --> 01:04:50,622
It turns out when you have an open source firmware and you can SSH into miners that are hacked together at best, I'd say, like there's really no such thing as closed source software nowadays.

807
01:04:50,622 --> 01:05:03,702
It's basically intercepting the mining operations on aftermarket firmwares, closed source firmwares, and literally sideloading an open source firmware in real time.

808
01:05:03,802 --> 01:05:05,442
These are just a couple of AI prompts.

809
01:05:05,682 --> 01:05:10,122
I mean, obviously, he is architecting it as an embedded systems full stack Linux engineer.

810
01:05:10,522 --> 01:05:14,242
But with the AI tools, it's just become so much easier.

811
01:05:14,242 --> 01:05:19,662
We've got Mugina running on S19s, a couple of different versions and images coming soon.

812
01:05:19,662 --> 01:05:41,382
So a file you can download. It runs on BitAxes. It runs on some open source hardware, the 256 Foundation's working on. But long story short is, yes, we're building towards that platform, Regina. Dylan's actually pretty involved in the API architecture, right? I mean, it's cool. It's very early stages, but it's an opportunistic time to come in. There's dev calls for that as well.

813
01:05:41,382 --> 01:05:44,422
to get to voice your interest.

814
01:05:44,542 --> 01:05:46,182
Hey, I'm trying to do this solar thing.

815
01:05:46,282 --> 01:05:47,622
Hey, I'm trying to do this heating thing.

816
01:05:47,682 --> 01:05:49,662
Like I need the firmware to do X, Y, and Z.

817
01:05:50,062 --> 01:05:51,382
And the beauty of it is

818
01:05:51,382 --> 01:05:53,662
these can be built in a matter of minutes.

819
01:05:55,042 --> 01:05:57,622
Yeah, I mean, it's kind of wild to think that

820
01:05:57,622 --> 01:06:02,342
Libreboard that 256 is putting out can run Mugina.

821
01:06:02,702 --> 01:06:06,482
You can connect hashboards to it via USB-C.

822
01:06:07,022 --> 01:06:08,682
You can mix and match hashboards.

823
01:06:08,682 --> 01:06:12,762
So maybe you have a dying S21 and a dying S19.

824
01:06:13,102 --> 01:06:17,862
You can plug any combination of those boards into Libra board.

825
01:06:18,202 --> 01:06:25,982
And then Mugina is being designed to be able to programmatically dictate where the power is going through those boards.

826
01:06:26,142 --> 01:06:30,722
Does it prioritize efficiency? Does it prioritize equalizing it across all the boards?

827
01:06:31,242 --> 01:06:33,382
Let me turn two off and turn two on, etc.

828
01:06:33,382 --> 01:06:44,302
So being able to get in right now to voice how you think minor firmware control should be handled is super valuable.

829
01:06:44,642 --> 01:06:48,502
And you can help steer the conversation as like, hey, I like this on this firmware.

830
01:06:48,582 --> 01:06:50,682
I like this in this firmware. I hate this, hate this.

831
01:06:50,742 --> 01:06:55,282
So let's add these and disregard this and find a different system, which is the beauty of open source.

832
01:06:55,382 --> 01:07:00,022
You can just contribute it and have a discussion around it and go back and forth on it.

833
01:07:01,102 --> 01:07:01,882
Yeah, it's funny.

834
01:07:01,882 --> 01:07:04,502
like when you connect all this stuff to Home Assistant

835
01:07:04,502 --> 01:07:05,822
and do what we're trying to do,

836
01:07:05,822 --> 01:07:07,842
and if you're reading this playbook or listening

837
01:07:07,842 --> 01:07:11,022
to this episode, you might be interested in doing this too.

838
01:07:11,022 --> 01:07:12,722
The thermostats behave like thermostats.

839
01:07:12,722 --> 01:07:14,922
The solar inverter behaves like a solar inverter.

840
01:07:14,922 --> 01:07:16,422
The furnace behaves like a furnace.

841
01:07:16,422 --> 01:07:19,142
The battery behaves like a battery, right?

842
01:07:19,142 --> 01:07:34,352
The miners don behave well like heaters That like and they don behave well like solar dispatch loads That like the missing piece And it just the pain point of where we at in the industry It a bullish sign in the sense that we early and we get to be alive for this But there a lot of

843
01:07:34,352 --> 01:07:38,772
technical work to be done on the firmware to Dylan's technical points there. How do you architect

844
01:07:38,772 --> 01:07:43,632
that? If you request half power, how does it do that? Does it shut off one of the two boards or

845
01:07:43,632 --> 01:07:47,612
does it just throttle them back? Which one gets you the most saps? Which one gets you the highest

846
01:07:47,612 --> 01:07:52,232
temperature. It depends on what you're trying to do, right? And then also the hardware itself.

847
01:07:52,472 --> 01:07:57,032
That's something I just want to mention, which is like eating appliances, solar infrastructure,

848
01:07:57,172 --> 01:08:02,032
this stuff's supposed to last 30 years, right? Like, I don't want the hash board to change shape.

849
01:08:02,312 --> 01:08:07,392
You know, I want it to be a standard like hot swappable, upgradable heating element that I know

850
01:08:07,392 --> 01:08:11,792
when I upgrade in eight years, it's going to be the same shape and I don't have to overhaul the

851
01:08:11,792 --> 01:08:16,832
whole system. We don't have that luxury because the miners kind of do change shape and it's

852
01:08:16,832 --> 01:08:18,432
whatever the manufacturer's will is,

853
01:08:18,552 --> 01:08:19,772
they don't sell the chips, right?

854
01:08:20,112 --> 01:08:21,292
So there's no company that said,

855
01:08:21,352 --> 01:08:22,272
I'm gonna keep them this shape.

856
01:08:23,152 --> 01:08:24,712
So all this is to say is like,

857
01:08:24,772 --> 01:08:26,272
this is kind of the open source stack

858
01:08:26,272 --> 01:08:29,092
that we're watching closely and helping

859
01:08:29,092 --> 01:08:31,152
and advocates of with our time and energy

860
01:08:31,152 --> 01:08:33,652
to support the 256 Foundation.

861
01:08:34,652 --> 01:08:35,912
But my last comment here will be,

862
01:08:36,012 --> 01:08:40,312
it's not just a benefit to the people

863
01:08:40,312 --> 01:08:41,972
trying to do these energy-based,

864
01:08:42,472 --> 01:08:44,632
building integrated home mining,

865
01:08:44,632 --> 01:08:50,092
building mining, business mining systems. An open source stack is also beneficial when you're

866
01:08:50,092 --> 01:08:56,192
a publicly traded miner and you don't want a dev fee on your firmware, or you want to, you know,

867
01:08:56,312 --> 01:09:02,112
investigate and audit share accounting, right? Or you just want to make sure there's no backdoor

868
01:09:02,112 --> 01:09:08,972
from Antbleed, right? That can remotely shut off your machine. So all this is to say is like the

869
01:09:08,972 --> 01:09:14,732
Linux, back to that first point, the Linux firmware of the mining industry called Mojina,

870
01:09:15,112 --> 01:09:20,692
and then chip accessibility and some reference designs just so we can get consistent form

871
01:09:20,692 --> 01:09:21,872
factors and some standards.

872
01:09:22,232 --> 01:09:24,732
That's all really needed to help the whole industry.

873
01:09:25,952 --> 01:09:26,852
Completely agree.

874
01:09:27,772 --> 01:09:28,432
And it's crazy.

875
01:09:28,432 --> 01:09:29,632
We're 17 years in.

876
01:09:30,072 --> 01:09:37,892
And to your point earlier, Tyler, about mining going through this phase of CPU, GPU, FPGA,

877
01:09:37,892 --> 01:09:40,272
ASIC, industrial scale, and now coming back.

878
01:09:42,092 --> 01:09:45,592
I think it's hard to predict exactly what the

879
01:09:45,592 --> 01:09:49,732
end form factor looks like, but I have a feeling that the end form

880
01:09:49,732 --> 01:09:53,552
factor is going to be in something that is conducive for

881
01:09:53,552 --> 01:09:57,352
at-home mining. And yes, there may still be industrial scale to produce

882
01:09:57,352 --> 01:10:01,652
the ability to participate in demand response, and there's going to be

883
01:10:01,652 --> 01:10:05,612
parts of the world where they don't build out AI data centers because they decide the US

884
01:10:05,612 --> 01:10:08,872
and China won the arms race for AI,

885
01:10:09,152 --> 01:10:11,432
so we're going to use our excess power to buy Bitcoin.

886
01:10:11,732 --> 01:10:13,672
I still think they will have a place.

887
01:10:14,312 --> 01:10:18,912
I think overall the arc of Bitcoin mining history

888
01:10:18,912 --> 01:10:20,552
will be more distributed,

889
01:10:21,932 --> 01:10:23,592
a variety of form factors,

890
01:10:23,592 --> 01:10:26,312
and hopefully, but I'm pretty confident

891
01:10:26,312 --> 01:10:33,792
using mining as a way to be a sort of collaborative

892
01:10:33,792 --> 01:10:42,272
part of a home brain to help with heating and taking advantage of periods where we're mining

893
01:10:42,272 --> 01:10:48,212
bitcoin with your your electricity is profitable yeah i would just echo that by saying like what's

894
01:10:48,212 --> 01:10:54,712
the end form factor of a computer processor or a gpu there's laptop cpus and gpus there's desktop

895
01:10:54,712 --> 01:11:00,052
cpus and gpus there's data center cpus and gpus right and so i think that whole stack will exist

896
01:11:00,052 --> 01:11:06,252
at scale in Bitcoin mining. We're not here saying building integrated mining is the only answer.

897
01:11:06,512 --> 01:11:11,572
I still am a firm believer in monetizing stranded energy, right? Off-grid mining. There's going to

898
01:11:11,572 --> 01:11:15,532
be the on-grid mining that's cheap enough or subsidized by the state or whatever. There's

899
01:11:15,532 --> 01:11:19,812
going to be the gridless computes of the world, right? That are finding stranded energy, literally,

900
01:11:19,812 --> 01:11:25,692
and offering electricity to their community from the application of Bitcoin mining into those

901
01:11:25,692 --> 01:11:32,832
micro grids. But I think that what's very undervalued right now, and at the same time,

902
01:11:32,892 --> 01:11:37,952
people want to participate is this building integrated mining, you know, and it's kind of

903
01:11:37,952 --> 01:11:42,292
felt out of reach for a while because the machines are so industrial and you don't, you don't really

904
01:11:42,292 --> 01:11:50,572
see one as a newcomer to Bitcoin. So we're working to change that. Yeah. And so people listen to this,

905
01:11:50,652 --> 01:11:54,292
they download the playbook, they're reading it. What do they do next? What do they do next?

906
01:11:55,692 --> 01:12:02,172
Uh, well, they can get started on our support page.

907
01:12:03,052 --> 01:12:06,092
We've documented everything as much as we can.

908
01:12:06,232 --> 01:12:07,672
So you can totally do this yourself.

909
01:12:08,312 --> 01:12:11,172
Calculators are available and the equations are available.

910
01:12:12,032 --> 01:12:14,972
You can take a stab at this and do it yourself.

911
01:12:15,892 --> 01:12:17,492
Also, you can contact us.

912
01:12:17,632 --> 01:12:19,032
We provide this as a service.

913
01:12:19,552 --> 01:12:25,552
We were happy to work with people because it's important for us to get this into

914
01:12:25,552 --> 01:12:27,232
as many homes and businesses as possible.

915
01:12:27,432 --> 01:12:28,692
You have an advantage, use it.

916
01:12:28,772 --> 01:12:31,992
Like at the top of the report here.

917
01:12:33,932 --> 01:12:35,792
It's important for us to not only

918
01:12:35,792 --> 01:12:38,412
get people exposed to Bitcoin mining,

919
01:12:38,512 --> 01:12:40,352
but it also is this Trojan horse

920
01:12:40,352 --> 01:12:43,652
to decentralizing and hardening the network even further.

921
01:12:44,172 --> 01:12:45,692
Because it's way better, in my opinion,

922
01:12:45,692 --> 01:12:48,032
to have every home on this block mining Bitcoin,

923
01:12:48,352 --> 01:12:51,572
especially if they're either lottery mining themselves

924
01:12:51,572 --> 01:12:52,972
or building their own block templates,

925
01:12:53,052 --> 01:12:54,112
doing pool mining, whichever.

926
01:12:54,112 --> 01:12:59,192
to not only decentralize it physically, but also on the pool scale.

927
01:13:00,212 --> 01:13:02,612
And so we're excited about other open source pools coming out.

928
01:13:02,752 --> 01:13:03,932
But back to how you get started.

929
01:13:05,932 --> 01:13:06,912
Contact us.

930
01:13:07,272 --> 01:13:09,032
Yeah, you get started with your utility bills.

931
01:13:09,632 --> 01:13:12,472
Have your goal in mind of am I doing this for heating?

932
01:13:12,612 --> 01:13:13,592
Am I doing this for solar?

933
01:13:14,472 --> 01:13:18,792
Is sovereignty important to me or some combination thereof?

934
01:13:20,412 --> 01:13:24,092
And figure out what your current sunk cost is for your building.

935
01:13:24,112 --> 01:13:29,412
and whether you're losing value on the solar you're selling back to the grid.

936
01:13:30,152 --> 01:13:34,672
And from there, you make the decision on how integrated do I want this to be?

937
01:13:35,272 --> 01:13:37,732
Do I want to tiptoe in with space heaters?

938
01:13:37,812 --> 01:13:38,552
Totally fine.

939
01:13:38,652 --> 01:13:40,392
Or do I go fully integrated?

940
01:13:40,592 --> 01:13:44,532
And do I have this tied into my plumbing system from my boiler,

941
01:13:44,732 --> 01:13:45,812
ducted into my furnace?

942
01:13:45,812 --> 01:13:49,732
Do I have a dry cooler so I can dump the heat outside during the summertime?

943
01:13:51,012 --> 01:13:53,752
It really all goes back to what is your goal?

944
01:13:54,112 --> 01:14:01,572
The good news, if anyone's listening, yeah, echo everything Dylan said. If they already have a

945
01:14:01,572 --> 01:14:06,832
miner, maybe it's got an aftermarket firmware like Brains or LuxOS or some of the Canaan miners.

946
01:14:07,352 --> 01:14:11,632
Chances are we've been building out more of these. Shout out to Brett Rowan at Upstream Data,

947
01:14:11,692 --> 01:14:17,712
by the way. He is the tech wizard behind getting Bitcoin miners to respond to API calls in a

948
01:14:17,712 --> 01:14:22,692
cohesive, aggregated way to help us in Home Assistant. But a lot of this stuff is on Home

949
01:14:22,692 --> 01:14:26,912
assistant already, meaning a miner you already have might be able to be controlled like a smart

950
01:14:26,912 --> 01:14:34,092
home device. And so to echo Dylan's point about tiptoeing, like get a $50 raspberry pie or buy one

951
01:14:34,092 --> 01:14:40,212
or install home assistant on start 9040, right? Because now it's packaged for that or on your

952
01:14:40,212 --> 01:14:44,512
umbrella. And then download the integration. These are like, that's like the app store of

953
01:14:44,512 --> 01:14:48,732
home assistant. Download the one that lets you connect to Bitcoin miner. Home assistant is pretty

954
01:14:48,732 --> 01:14:53,432
smart, it might automatically find your home thermostat or a smart switch or something.

955
01:14:53,832 --> 01:14:57,492
Watch a couple of YouTube videos, come to our office hours, read some of our documentation.

956
01:14:57,732 --> 01:15:10,842
Then you can start to toy around with controlling a minor like a smart building device with your building brain You can connect your Claude or OpenAI account to Home Assistant with their MCP connector And then you can start just

957
01:15:10,842 --> 01:15:15,842
asking your AI to build the smart control. And that's where you really get more confident to say,

958
01:15:16,402 --> 01:15:21,002
okay, maybe I do need to chat with these guys or help figure out the sizing myself for how many I

959
01:15:21,002 --> 01:15:25,562
really need to optimize this. And then, you know, I'm going to cut it into the duct and I'm going to

960
01:15:25,562 --> 01:15:30,122
install a damper or a valve or a pump that can control things and all that connects to home

961
01:15:30,122 --> 01:15:34,702
assistant you tell your ai it then starts to build out the automation flow from there so that's kind

962
01:15:34,702 --> 01:15:40,262
of how we grew into this over time that was our natural path and um i know it can be a little

963
01:15:40,262 --> 01:15:47,922
intimidating but all the tools are available to do it today yeah and the uh the one thing we forgot

964
01:15:47,922 --> 01:15:53,122
to cover but i think we can cover real quickly is like there's a bunch of people like all right

965
01:15:53,122 --> 01:15:54,282
Like, how do I actually get the Bitcoin?

966
01:15:54,482 --> 01:15:56,082
Like, what happens when you put the miner in?

967
01:15:57,742 --> 01:15:58,782
You point it in a pool.

968
01:15:59,682 --> 01:16:02,222
We're producing this Bitcoin and the miner's running.

969
01:16:02,322 --> 01:16:02,822
I could see it.

970
01:16:02,882 --> 01:16:04,282
But how do I get the Bitcoin?

971
01:16:06,142 --> 01:16:09,602
We hosted an event here at the space and someone asked,

972
01:16:10,602 --> 01:16:13,842
okay, so how do I get the Bitcoin out of the miner?

973
01:16:14,342 --> 01:16:16,482
And it just has stuck in my head forever.

974
01:16:17,062 --> 01:16:19,002
You're like, no, it's stuck in the hot tub forever.

975
01:16:19,662 --> 01:16:21,482
The files are in the computer.

976
01:16:23,122 --> 01:16:27,442
And so I think maybe we mentioned this, maybe we didn't.

977
01:16:27,962 --> 01:16:30,662
A lot of this report is based on pooled mining.

978
01:16:31,382 --> 01:16:34,562
And so I don't advocate for this.

979
01:16:34,642 --> 01:16:36,222
You can do pooled mining, the FPPS.

980
01:16:36,482 --> 01:16:37,922
You shouldn't do that, in my opinion.

981
01:16:38,062 --> 01:16:39,702
But that's another conversation of another day.

982
01:16:40,342 --> 01:16:41,922
I'm a big advocate of Ocean.

983
01:16:42,142 --> 01:16:44,162
I like being able to build my own block template.

984
01:16:44,582 --> 01:16:48,702
I accept the fact that they are the coordinator of the payouts.

985
01:16:48,882 --> 01:16:50,002
I'm fine with that tradeoff.

986
01:16:50,002 --> 01:16:58,382
um so on ocean you can put in your own bitcoin address and you will get paid out there

987
01:16:58,382 --> 01:17:01,482
intermittently if you don't have a lot of hash rates it's going to take a long time to do it on

988
01:17:01,482 --> 01:17:09,502
chain i think the minimum is like a million sats uh or you can if you have a core lightning node or

989
01:17:09,502 --> 01:17:16,642
um coinos they offer the ability to hook up your lightning address

990
01:17:16,642 --> 01:17:20,282
with a Bolt 12 offer to your Ocean account

991
01:17:20,282 --> 01:17:21,762
and you'll get lightning payouts.

992
01:17:21,982 --> 01:17:24,242
And then sats are in your pocket

993
01:17:24,242 --> 01:17:25,922
wherever you access that lightning account

994
01:17:25,922 --> 01:17:27,002
and you can spend it immediately

995
01:17:27,002 --> 01:17:28,402
or you can send it to cold storage.

996
01:17:28,762 --> 01:17:29,742
Totally up to you.

997
01:17:30,022 --> 01:17:32,202
This is the best part.

998
01:17:32,682 --> 01:17:34,662
My favorite part about home mining is that

999
01:17:34,662 --> 01:17:38,622
it beats the hell out of credit card rewards

1000
01:17:38,622 --> 01:17:40,402
or airline miles or what have you

1001
01:17:40,402 --> 01:17:42,762
because your subsidy that you get back

1002
01:17:42,762 --> 01:17:44,322
for running infrastructure in your home

1003
01:17:44,322 --> 01:17:46,402
is immediately spendable.

1004
01:17:46,642 --> 01:17:48,762
once it's in your pocket.

1005
01:17:48,762 --> 01:17:50,042
And so whichever route that takes,

1006
01:17:50,042 --> 01:17:51,382
or you send it straight to cold storage

1007
01:17:51,382 --> 01:17:53,342
and don't worry about it ever again.

1008
01:17:54,482 --> 01:17:56,562
Very trivial to set up.

1009
01:17:56,562 --> 01:17:58,502
I wanna give a shout out to,

1010
01:17:58,502 --> 01:18:01,502
as I've learned more recently about Peterpool V2,

1011
01:18:01,502 --> 01:18:03,022
more protocol, this is a little nerdy,

1012
01:18:03,022 --> 01:18:05,842
but this notion of, you know,

1013
01:18:05,842 --> 01:18:07,542
we're like one of the biggest advocates

1014
01:18:07,542 --> 01:18:10,582
of physical decentralization of hash rate, right?

1015
01:18:10,582 --> 01:18:12,262
It's like, we're putting them in buildings.

1016
01:18:12,262 --> 01:18:15,022
Everybody's got building, a lot of people have buildings.

1017
01:18:15,022 --> 01:18:20,222
But on the digital decentralization, you know, it kind of was a trope for me before because I didn't fully understand it.

1018
01:18:20,342 --> 01:18:24,102
But, you know, it doesn't really do anything if you just point to an FPPS pool.

1019
01:18:24,242 --> 01:18:25,662
And so how do you solve for that?

1020
01:18:25,762 --> 01:18:31,222
There are different pools like Ocean, which have let you construct your own block templates or strategy, too.

1021
01:18:31,302 --> 01:18:39,722
But then there's also pretty cool protocol proposals for a decentralized pool altogether, meaning a company, an entity doesn't control it.

1022
01:18:39,722 --> 01:18:42,662
It is the pool is a protocol with a share chain.

1023
01:18:42,662 --> 01:18:46,582
And so that's a really hard technical problem that I was talking to Matt Carlow about and

1024
01:18:46,582 --> 01:18:51,542
Jungli, who's one of our engineers at the 256 Foundation that we're working on as well.

1025
01:18:52,742 --> 01:18:56,582
But I'm really excited about stuff like that to come in the future as well, because I do view

1026
01:18:56,582 --> 01:19:01,882
like my long term bullish view on Bitcoin mining is you're going to plug in a gadget into your house.

1027
01:19:02,342 --> 01:19:05,922
You don't even have to know how it works. It's going to pay you money. It's going to monetize

1028
01:19:05,922 --> 01:19:10,722
your solar. It's going to offset your heating costs. And it's going to just do this programmatically

1029
01:19:10,722 --> 01:19:14,882
at a protocol layer, and it's going to fully decentralize physically and digitally

1030
01:19:14,882 --> 01:19:19,122
the Bitcoin network. And we have this massive interconnected web across the globe

1031
01:19:19,122 --> 01:19:22,402
of these little machines that are building infrastructure that are

1032
01:19:22,402 --> 01:19:26,242
final settlement for the base layer of the monetary system. It's crazy to think about.

1033
01:19:26,742 --> 01:19:30,902
Yeah, they're enabling peer-to-peer digital cash at a time when it's desperately

1034
01:19:30,902 --> 01:19:35,042
needed. Gentlemen, it's been a pleasure

1035
01:19:35,042 --> 01:19:38,382
working with you. I mean, you guys have missed the work, but it's been

1036
01:19:38,382 --> 01:19:40,802
it's been fun. It has.

1037
01:19:41,122 --> 01:19:42,202
For the last three weeks.

1038
01:19:43,022 --> 01:19:48,082
Yeah, I appreciate it. I'm really excited to see what the audience thinks of it. I know that

1039
01:19:48,082 --> 01:19:53,002
people are pretty hungry for home mining. There's always a lot of chatter online when they see a new

1040
01:19:53,002 --> 01:19:57,322
gadget come out. And I think it'll be cool to really get the playbook out there to say,

1041
01:19:57,322 --> 01:20:01,602
this is kind of our way of thinking about how much home mining can you

1042
01:20:01,602 --> 01:20:05,682
get away with to your benefit. You want the most bang for your buck,

1043
01:20:05,682 --> 01:20:07,802
this is how to do it. So thank you, Marty.

1044
01:20:08,402 --> 01:20:09,882
Yeah, thank you, Marty. This is great.

1045
01:20:11,262 --> 01:20:13,602
Word of warning to the listeners, the viewers,

1046
01:20:15,002 --> 01:20:18,122
stacking hash rate is more addictive than stacking sets.

1047
01:20:19,642 --> 01:20:21,202
Yeah, I can

1048
01:20:21,202 --> 01:20:26,162
co-sign that if somebody has been stacking hash rate for almost a decade now.

1049
01:20:26,162 --> 01:20:30,122
It is addicting. It is masochistic, but it's addicting. And I think your application makes it

1050
01:20:30,122 --> 01:20:34,182
less masochistic. But this is not the end

1051
01:20:34,182 --> 01:20:38,202
of this for us. You got the playbook. You've listened to this episode.

1052
01:20:38,202 --> 01:20:41,322
If you're at the TFTC roundtable, we are going to have

1053
01:20:41,322 --> 01:20:44,942
a one-off call

1054
01:20:44,942 --> 01:20:49,622
July 14th that night. Hope you guys are available

1055
01:20:49,622 --> 01:20:54,062
because that's what we've said it internally. I just told you that live on air. Business on air.

1056
01:20:55,982 --> 01:20:59,442
We have the TFTC roundtable now. If you like this, if you want to learn more,

1057
01:21:00,222 --> 01:21:03,022
Dylan, Tyler, and myself will be meeting in a closed

1058
01:21:03,022 --> 01:21:06,142
Zoom group where we can expand on this conversation.

1059
01:21:06,282 --> 01:21:08,042
You guys can ask questions when we go a little deeper.

1060
01:21:08,942 --> 01:21:12,842
So sign up for the TFTC Roundtable if you want to join that.

1061
01:21:13,542 --> 01:21:16,742
And gentlemen, I think this is great.

1062
01:21:17,222 --> 01:21:21,122
I hope if you're listening, you learn more, you become more confident.

1063
01:21:21,122 --> 01:21:25,102
And if so, reach out to Tyler and Dylan.

1064
01:21:25,262 --> 01:21:26,562
Certainly try to do it by yourself.

1065
01:21:26,822 --> 01:21:30,582
But I'm a big don't reinvent the wheel guy.

1066
01:21:30,582 --> 01:21:33,822
speed up the learning curve by talking to these two.

1067
01:21:36,722 --> 01:21:39,822
Thank you, sir. We'll see you July 14th.

1068
01:21:40,342 --> 01:21:41,342
Peace and love, folks.

1069
01:21:42,822 --> 01:21:45,862
Thank you for listening to this episode of TFTC.

1070
01:21:46,362 --> 01:21:49,922
If you've made it this far, I imagine you got some value out of the episode.

1071
01:21:50,342 --> 01:21:54,282
If so, please share it far and wide with your friends and family.

1072
01:21:54,282 --> 01:21:58,262
We're looking to get the word out there. Also, wherever you're listening,

1073
01:21:58,262 --> 01:22:03,842
whether that's YouTube, Apple, Spotify, make sure you like and subscribe to the show.

1074
01:22:04,222 --> 01:22:08,582
And if you can leave a rating on the podcasting platforms, that goes a long way.

1075
01:22:09,002 --> 01:22:13,582
Last but not least, if you want to get these episodes a day early and ad free,

1076
01:22:13,862 --> 01:22:19,422
make sure you download the Fountain podcasting app and go to fountain.fm to find that.

1077
01:22:20,182 --> 01:22:23,922
$5 a month gets you every episode a day early, ad free.

1078
01:22:24,522 --> 01:22:27,002
Helps the show, gives you incredible value.

1079
01:22:27,002 --> 01:22:34,122
so please consider subscribing via fountain as well thank you for your time and until next time