You've had a dynamic where money has become freer than free.
We talk about a Fed just gone nuts.
All the central banks going nuts.
So it's all acting like safe haven.
I believe that in a world where central bankers are tripping over themselves to devalue their currency, Bitcoin wins.
In the world of fiat currencies, Bitcoin is the victor.
I mean, that's part of the bull case for Bitcoin.
If you're not paying attention, you probably should be.
Oh, God. Oh, God is right.
Ladies and gentlemen, I regret to inform you that Justin Moon has got the itch again.
And when Justin Moon gets the itch, things get done.
I'm not drunk this time. I think every other time I've been on this podcast, I've been severely drunk.
yeah dude i mean we've been talking behind the scenes it was just showing you some of the work
i've been doing well you haven't been doing it um yeah you've been having work done as they say
in la yes i have i have my clanker i have my clanker working on it as people like to say
i don't know we've been talking a lot about this for over a year now i mean you taught me how to
out of VibeCode about a year ago, you and Anthony.
I was still in Austin, and a lot has happened since then.
And I think even when we did the BTC++ thing,
I remember talking to you after that, and you're like,
I don't know what I want to do.
I don't got the itch for anything.
I'm going to take time.
And then in recent weeks, we've been talking,
and you told me you have the itch again.
And you're itching because it seems like we've reached a tipping point
in terms of what is possible with these LLMs, these agents,
and how far we can push Freedom Tech specifically.
Yeah, exactly.
Why don't you walk us through?
Yeah, I feel like right now, just in the last month or two,
so I've been, you know, for the last year,
like, you know, I left Fetty like a year and a half ago or so,
and was just kind of taking a break for a couple months,
and then Alex Gladstein reached out and was like,
hey, would you like to start an AI program with HRF?
Would you like to help?
And I'm like, sure, I'll help kind of on the side, though,
you know, cause I'm not really ready for a full-time thing.
And, you know, so help like, you know, a little bit part-time.
And so I had like a nice kind of front row seat to just kind of watch and just play,
play around with stuff.
And I think that's one of the most important things to do.
That's been the most useful thing for me to just play.
And I was just reading, listening to a podcast.
I'm over here with the Peter Steinberger guy, the open claw guy.
And he's like, you know, that's what he, he did the same thing.
He sold the company, took three years off, came back and just played for like a year
and played with tools.
So, you know, like I've been I think I probably five coded like probably two, three hundred projects over the last year and had like a very specific like.
Decision not to ship anything right to feel no pressure to ship or to be productive at all, just to play and have fun.
And this is actually a million from Primal kind of helped me understand this.
He's talking about like a previous company he did.
He's like, don't you know, don't don't hurry back into it because that's kind of my I was actually.
yeah, I tried to hurry back into it this time too.
And it was like, yeah, that's just,
I just need to take some time off.
And so that's what I did for like a year.
I played around with it a lot,
kind of through the HRF capacity,
went to Sovereign Engineering twice,
which is Gigi and Pablo's little idea factory in Madeira.
You know, you show up in an island
and meet up with a group of people
and every week you try to like ship something new.
And this last one, I think every day I was trying to,
not ship, but like build something new,
build a prototype that is usable
by the other people in the cohort,
but not something that's going to change the world necessarily. Experiment with new ideas.
And so, yeah, that's kind of what I've been doing for the last year, basically, just playing around
with these things, learning. And then just over the last couple of weeks, it just starts to feel
like it's like, OK, you know, timing is always everything. Like when do you if you try really
hard at the wrong time, it doesn't it doesn't work, you know, like it has felt over the last
like month or two it's like okay now is like we have like a window uh for things you know i kind
of i'm starting to get the feel i wouldn't have said this two weeks ago but like even maybe a
month ago but it's starting to feel like you know like a century could happen in the next five years
you know uh in the sense that like maybe maybe not that much has happened since world war ii
you know uh we kind of live in the same world that the korean war happened in you know or something
you know what i mean like it's not like a lot of things have changed like we have more technology
and we have the internet we have you know certain cultural things have changed we have rock and roll
a little more than we did back then but it's like it's not that much different in like 75 years and
like i don't know it seems like the world in many different ways is kind of unraveling and you know
from a negative side and then on a positive side there's like this groundswell of like you know
intelligence that's happening and it's yeah from from like a social and a techno tech side just like
the last couple months have felt like like i don't know like some i don't know like uh like a bud
starting to to cut you know like something's something's happening here so that's kind of why
why i'm i'm kind of this last last week or two i'm like okay it's time to time to like uh whatever
or take dust the sword off you know and get back out there well what is it particularly that
makes you feel this like what state these yeah so i'll tell you one i mean two two two things
uh and they're kind of insane uh i mean i feel i feel a little bit like uh i'm always every day
i'm like do i have to what degree do i have ai psychosis right now like i try to be you know so
So like on one thing, so last, so the first time I went to the sovereign engineering program,
you know, I tried to, the goal was to enjoy programming again.
Cause like that was my profession for a long time.
And then I hated it for a while.
I really didn't like sitting down at the computer every time I tried.
I kind of didn't, didn't enjoy it.
And, uh, and I missed it.
And so I was just trying to find a way to enjoy it again.
And what I did was like, there was, I had this idea for how you could build a mobile
app that what I always wanted, kind of like how I internalized my experience of building the Fedi
mobile app and just like observations I had along the way. It's like, this would be a fun way to
build mobile apps. And the idea is, you know, the thing you want with mobile apps is you ideally
you'd like to write it once and have it run on multiple platforms like iOS and Android, right?
And that's kind of the holy grail. It's half as much work. And so that's why something like React
Native became very popular and Flutter. So that's kind of the, the, the, the premise,
but they're like an abstraction layer between the native system, like actual iOS, actual Android, and your code.
So you have like a thin or like a big pane of glass between you and the system you're operating on that distorts.
And you can't really achieve, it limits like what you can do in a sense,
because there's like a level of distortion that happens here with a huge layer of technology between the native platform and yourself.
And so I had this vision of like, you write the entire application in Rust and it models everything about your app, like what page you're on, what the router we call it, right?
Like literally everything happens in Rust.
And then you have a very thin layer on top on iOS and Android that uses the platform native way of drawing to the screen.
And so it feels like a native app, like, you know, like this new liquid glass thing that they did.
Like if somebody is using the native thing, you can just kind of feel it in your monkey brain.
uh so your lizard brain and so that was kind of my idea i had this vision for how you could do this
and how and i worked on this for like four weeks um and i kind of almost got there but couldn't
quite ship it uh i want i kind of started to want to ship it i wanted to ship something and i worked
on it for like a good month doing like iterations every week and so last friday i was streaming uh
i started to do these little live streams on on nostril where like 10 people show up it's perfect
uh marty marty was played a big role because he showed up in the first one and gave me a fat zap
I'm like, okay, if Marty likes it, I might be on to something, right?
A couple of my friends showed up and they all said good things.
So I'm like, I mean, it was a Friday night.
I was at this desk.
Yeah, and I was in the West Coast and I was, you know, I started at like 9 p.m. or something.
So I'm like, I'm purposefully trying not to get viewers, basically.
Just a few, right?
And I'm a little self-conscious there.
And so that was the previous week.
So last week I was streaming and I was getting really pissed off.
Like my stream kept coming in and out, like technical problems and it wasn't working.
So I just turned it off.
And then I started working on this Rust multi-platform idea again.
And over the course of 24 hours, I built what I couldn't build in a month last summer.
And it's better.
And then I did a stream with Paul Miller like a day or two ago.
And we got a really nice mobile app working with this that uses Marmot protocol.
So Marmot protocol is the thing underneath white noise, appear to white noise.
The premise of white noise is to fill a gap that exists in FreedomTech right now.
We don't have an end-to-end encrypted messenger that uses like best in class, like encryption and privacy tools that doesn't depend on a single third party like Signal, right?
Like Signal's great, but there's a company that runs everything.
And so the idea is like, well, could you have the same user experience but have more freedom and like consumer choice like we do on Nostra with relays, right?
Like, could you choose which service is going to forward your messages?
And if you're getting censored by everyone, could you run one yourself?
Right. And so that's the premise of Marmot.
And I've been a fan for the last year with what Jeff and his team are doing on White Noise.
I'm I'm I'm I always wish I could help them more, but I'm like, I'm you know, I'm not trying to be productive.
And so so we made a mobile app, a really nice native mobile app that feels like a native mobile app.
And then I built an extension for OpenClaw that could send and receive messages from OpenClaw.
So I built a way to talk to OpenClaw that has the privacy characteristics of signal and no central third party.
And I'm standing on the shoulders of giants here because White Noise and Jeff and the Marmot team have been working on this for like two years.
So most of the work was theirs.
But that's what I've been doing the last couple of days.
And to me, the big one of the big things is, OK, I just did a project in one or two days and it's better than what took me a month last summer.
And a lot of it's just how much smarter the models have got. I was cheating. Also, I was pointing at my previous experiment.
So we got a little farther. But that's like that. That was like, OK, I just did something that was like would be a good achievement for like a year.
It's not quite done, but like another week. And it's like that would be a good achievement for a year of work.
and I can do it in roughly a week.
And I have a big text note of all kinds of other ideas like this.
And so it just feels like, I don't know, it just feels like fishing opener, right?
It's like, okay, it's time to go fishing, right?
Like, let's get the, come on, Dad.
Come on, Taylor.
Let's get in the boat.
Let's go fishing, right?
So that's kind of, that was one.
In terms of like how the world's different.
And then honestly, it sounds weird, but like the Epstein thing is another thing where it's like,
okay uh there there seems to be like these big you know there may be big conspiracies that are
unraveling in front of our eyes like uh and like the attorney like the attorney general is giving
the most insane uh congressional testimony i've ever i could even imagine like in a comedy movie
um you know it's like the dow is so high we can't prosecute pedophiles it's just like what like
uh i don't know that's just one anecdote in the last couple days and there's it seems like there's
been many of these where it's just like okay something's unraveling here right like something
really bad i don't want to go too deep in that hole but it's like something that spans many you
know like uh you know most of my whole life a while people are just catching up i know well
I've been there too, but it's starting to, like, there, you can feel something on, it's like, if I visual, it's like, there's a ball of yarn that is spinning right now, and it's getting smaller, right? And you can see that. So that's one of the things where I feel like it's like, on both tech and social side of things, like, it seems like, it seems like there's like a big shift that's happening.
and i don't know you've seen people i think other people are seeing this too like cali had a post
on nostr the other day and i just saw matt corralo retweeted it and said the same thing basically
saying like hey it's kind of do or it's not it's it you know we're not going to get like a bitcoin's
not going to um succeed on its own you know and our ideas aren't going to succeed on their own
uh we have to you know we need to champion them and we need to fight for them and kind of now
now is the time to do it. Like you have, there's nothing stopping you. Uh, and so, uh, yeah. And
I mean, the open cloth thing also, I know I've, I have watched this whole phenomenon mostly because
I've been just trying to get really good at vibe coding. So I, I saw Peter Steinberger's posts about
how he vibe codes, uh, like two months ago. And I've integrated a lot of that into my workflow.
And I, I've been a student of his GitHub projects, but not of his product. I've actually barely used
open code. I started trying last week and then I got nerd sniped. I'm like, well, we need a better
way to communicate it with over an Oscar. So I actually have accomplished very little with open
code. Uh, but I'm, I'm trying, I'm just, I'm, I'm sort of going to start going one by one
on these kinds of missing primitives to make it like freedom tech, uh, compliant, you know? So
like this, having like a really, really, really good hardcore way of talking to it is where we
start. Right. And then, so last night, you know, I have, I have a way to send text messages and
and encrypted to it. And so last night I'm adding video calling or audio calling. So I can talk,
I'm going to try to talk to it. And as I'm going, I'm implementing another thing that I was working
on in the second cohort I was at for sovereign engineering, where I had this idea for like
Noster is good at exchanging text. You know, it's all text-based right now. And it's even how it
does text is kind of slow, right? It's a JSON and there's like levels of like serialization and
stuff that make it a little slower. So you definitely can't do real-time, like doing real-time
video, real-time things like video, audio, streaming, game state, and video games. I think
games are a huge opportunity for Nostra that nobody, I haven't seen any, like the best experiment
I've seen was actually me and Paul Miller made a little game called InPub. I don't know if it
works right now, but it was InPub.Russell.app or something. And it was like a pixel art level,
right like think of like the pokemon video games and there was a room it was a little level with
three rooms and if you're if you could just jump in with your your login with monster and if you're
in the same room you can talk to people when you leave the room you don't hear them anymore and so
we were doing this audio over this thing called media over quick and the media over quick is uh
it's a very simple technology it's you call like binary pub sub so at binary pub sub and binary
means just data like raw data like voice like the actual readings off my microphone like the
sine waves off my microphone or video right like actual frame you know lists of pixels of each
frame that my camera captures so that's what binary just means that like raw data you know
not like necessarily jace not structured data like json but raw and uh pub stub means you can
publish and you can subscribe so if i'm let's say we were doing this recording over media over quick
my computer is publishing two streams, my audio and my video.
Your computer is doing the same thing.
And then my computer is subscribing to your audio and video, and yours is doing the same thing.
So that's what PubSub means.
And it's the same thing as Nostra, right?
Nostra is PubSub.
You publish and you subscribe, right?
And so, and it's a very similar architecture to Nostra where you have a really dumb server, like a Nostra server, a Nostra relay doesn't really know anything.
It enforces some nips, right?
Like it checks signatures, but it doesn't really know the business logic of the primal web app, for example.
Doesn't know shit about that.
The client is smarter, right?
And so that's kind of how we achieve this nice middle ground of kind of censorship resistance, where it's not like fully peer to peer and buggy, but we're also not going to a third party.
So like X.com. Right. And so it's like a level of, you know, it's distributed enough to not have the centralization risks, but it also works. Right.
And so this media over quick technology is like a cool thing because it's very similar to Nostre.
And so, yeah, I'm kind of trying to build a stack.
The last two days, I'm trying to build a stack for real time over Nostre that I think is more aligned to the Nostre principles than the WebRTC,
which is what like Primal and Zapstream and stuff use now, just because that's the standard, right?
Like not blaming them or anything.
That's what everyone uses.
And WebRTC is like an insane thing, right?
It's a browser standard.
You know, it's a standard that went into the web.
This is the official standard every browser has to implement.
And it was basically Google shipping their meet, meet, Google meet, like their web app, their app as a browser standard.
And they made it so complicated that Safari and Firefox, the two other major browser vendors that actually implement their own browser engine, they just use Google's code.
It's so complicated and it's so complex that they don't bother to implement it themselves.
They just ship Google's code.
So it's like it's kind of an insane thing where, you know, we talked about like regulatory capture.
This is like this is like specification capture, right?
Like the big tech platforms make the web so complex that now you can't build a new browser.
Right. That was the idea for a long time.
It's like and I think it's on purpose because someone like Apple, the last thing they want is more browsers.
right because the browser is the only way you can route around the app store on on ios right it's
the only way you can run arbitrary code without having to go you know without having permission
through their walled garden so they want like tight tight control over that right um i know
this is one of the other projects i did during this year is i built a browser you know like and
i learned all this stuff about how i think browsers are you know they it's kind of one of the reasons
why the web died is like you just had these big tech platforms have full control over this what was
this like beautiful ground up thing. And it stopped being that way. Once these big, big companies and
their, their, their, their committees have control over it. So that's, that's so, so, uh, TLDR,
right? Like in, in two, two, three days, I built the thing I spent the first sovereign engineering
cohort building. And then now in two, three days, I'm getting close to building the second,
the one I tried to do in the second one. And both these sovereign engineering cohorts,
I failed to finish them. Uh, and now in a couple of days, it feels like I'm, I'm going to get it
to work. And the end result is that I have like a beautiful, simple, fast, native feeling mobile app
that can talk to my bot, either over text or voice or soon video. And I can also do all this with my
friends over, you know, in a mobile app, and I can talk to white noise, and other things. Right. So
it's like, if you don't like my app, you can use white noise, which is beautiful, right? Like you
don't get captured into one client either. And yeah, so it's just like, dang, we're in a new
world. It's time to hit the gas.
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Yeah, I think you're honing in on a few things here.
I think most importantly is that I think people are looking at what's happening in AI,
particularly with the hyperscalers and the closed-source models.
they're saying, oh, they're going to, what they say goes moving forward.
Like they're the new Google, maybe Google, maybe Facebook, Microsoft, Amazon,
if ever, maybe.
It's like, oh, they're going to just plant their flag and assert their dominance
and increase their dominance.
But I think what you're highlighting here is that,
while this may be true to an extent, if we let it,
if you actually exert some agency and use the tools to our advantage,
in terms of proliferating freedom tech.
It can be done.
I think that's been, to your point about what Kale and Corallo
were talking about earlier this week, I saw that exchange.
I think it's totally true.
The onus is on us to begin building these tools.
It's never been easier.
I think the hardest part of these open-source software projects
up to this point has just been finding people to spend the time
to do the thankless work, to build it out, make it usable.
now with these LLMs, like anybody, the idea guys can come in and help.
Yeah, so two thoughts there.
Like one is that, you know, with HRF, we did like a, we have a program called AI for
Individual Rights, right?
And it started like nine months ago.
And so we did a big event in San Francisco in November called the AI Summit.
And so there's this guy, Ramez, he's at Ramez on X or Twitter, a sci-fi writer, and he had
a great talk.
If you can find it, I would encourage anyone to listen to it.
I think it was posted somewhere.
And so his talk was about one of the things he pointed out was that like a year ago, everyone was scared that you'd have a runaway winner.
And a year ago, it looked like it would be OpenAI or Google or something.
I mean, OpenAI was created because Elon Musk was scared that Google would be the runaway winner.
And then that OpenAI happened.
And then Anthropic was created out of OpenAI engineers because they were scared that OpenAI would be the runaway winner and they would control everyone's destiny.
And who knows, in a few years that might happen.
But in the last year, there's been zero evidence.
It's gotten more and more competitive.
And I think I haven't tried them yet, but in the last day or two, you know, you had GLM-5 and Minimax 2.5 released.
These are both Chinese open source, open weight models that are damn near as good as Opus 4.6 or whatever we're on right now.
And of course, that was released a while ago. So Anthropica's Cook.
Yeah, that was released last. That was released earlier this week.
But like the 4X models, like it's it's it could be, you know, this is this is like Anthropica's probably cooking up version five that, you know, they're so, you know, Anthropical reassert a lead here soon.
But even the open source models are, you know, Sam Altman, like complaining to the government.
Apparently, I saw some news story that like they're distilling his models and like, you know, hey, you can't copy my copy machine.
Right. Like, you know. And so I think that's really encouraging that it's becoming instead of having a winner take all runaway scenario,
the natural like dynamics of the technology are making it extremely, extremely competitive.
And it's maybe a race to the bottom in some sense.
And any model that gets out there can kind of be copied, right?
Like, you know, apparently, like according to Sam Altman, right?
That's the state of the world right now.
So that's one thing on, you know, being dominated by central parties.
And the other thing is like, well, you know, you can just build it now.
And I think that's really true.
I mean, there's, you know, there's a risk of going too overboard because it's like, you know, we're not going to, you know, there's still a big role for expertise, right?
Like, you know, you probably shouldn't go and start vibe coding Bitcoin core pull requests, you know, if you don't know anything about Bitcoin core.
But at the same time, like if you've always wanted to understand Bitcoin core and you've never been a programmer before, but you're interested in Bitcoin, like you can fire up codex and cloud code, have it clone Bitcoin core and start trying to build stuff.
And like, you're going to have the best education on how the Bitcoin software actually works.
The nuts and bolts that was possible a couple of years ago.
Like if you went to the Chaincode Labs residencies and stuff, you probably wouldn't get as good of an education as you would if you just locked yourself in a room for two weeks and tried to modify Bitcoin Core to do different things.
Right. Like, you know, try changing the supply schedule.
Right. Like try changing how the networking works.
So try doing all kinds of different things and you'll learn a ton, have it give you tutorials.
Like I want to do one live stream at some point where we spend one week.
I keep saying I'm going to do this, but then I have better ideas where we do one week and we try to build Bitcoin core from scratch, like clone it.
You know, if we start from the test suite, there's a test suite.
And so we'll just be like, OK, which test is the easiest?
Fast, right?
Like maybe two nodes sending a greeting to each other.
OK, now we're one of 300 tests or however many tests there are, right?
And then just keep going.
I think in a week it would be possible to pass much of that test suite.
Probably not all of it, but like some of the core things you could pass and maybe you'd leave parts of the Bitcoin core code in there, like the live Bitcoin consensus.
Right. The actual consensus engine. Or maybe you'd start with that and just slowly pull out pieces.
So I think there's yeah, there's there. But, you know, on the other hand, it's like there's an there's a possibility to build, you know, like we've lived in a world where you sort of choose software off the shelf.
right? You used to buy it and it showed up in a CD or you got it at Best Buy or something,
right? And then now we move to a world where it's like you download it in an app store or you have,
you know, you go to a SaaS website. And so it's in any case, it's choosing off the shelf,
right? You're choosing software off the shelf and you're using software that wasn't made for you.
And very few people have had the opportunity to build software directly for themselves. You had
to be a programmer. And that's changing. Like, that's one of the things I think that's most
exciting is that it's going to invert kind of how software is created. It's not, you don't start with
a market, you start with yourself, and you build something for yourself, right? And so you've been
experiencing this. And I can tell one fun anecdote that we did. This is probably the thing with HRF,
the thing I've been most excited about here recently, is we did a hackathon. Alex mentioned,
what do we think about a hackathon? And my initial, you know, doing a hackathon for AI,
And my initial thing was like, that's a terrible idea. Hackathons stink. The ideas are bad and there's no distribution afterwards. No one ever uses them. And after thinking some more, I was like, wait, well, if we did something where we took the democracy, human rights activists that HRF supports, right?
Like, you know, if you think of like student organizers at Tiananmen Square or like people who are trying to turn Venezuela into a freer society or, you know, places like that.
What if we match one of those people up who has a lot of ideas, who has good who have good ideas, like real ideas, but they don't know how to do it.
Right. Match those up with like the people who came to my meetup and bit devs for all these years.
Right. So, you know, one of these activists with like three hardcore developers and the activist brings the idea.
The developers build it. They teach kind of the activists how it works and they see the lifecycle of software creation.
They get to see how software is made. And then afterwards, the activist tries to leverage their network to distribute it and to get the Freedom Tech tools out there with an existing audience instead of us trying to kind of create audiences.
And so we did this hackathon and I was hoping like we got one or two cool projects.
all eight of them are cool. Eight amazing projects. All the devs loved it because they
got to work on something really concrete. And that's one of the big problems. If you've ever
gotten one of these open source grants in our system, our ecosystem, it's often you don't
really have a clear optimization loop. You don't know if you're winning or not. And that's one of
the hardest things to succeed is an open source dev in Bitcoin. It's like you need to bring that
yourself. It needs to be in your own psychology. And so I don't know, we mentioned Callie. That's
something I think he's really good at. He has a North Star in his head of what is good or not,
right? And like some of the really successful Bitcoin core developers probably who are able to
put up with years of pain, they have a North Star. But most people don't have that. And so many
people fail when they get a grant. And so a lot of the devs were like, this is really awesome.
I basically just get to see what's working. You show me what's working, what isn't.
And then, you know, the activists were obviously very interested, very happy because they got to
see what's possible now. And they actually had to build something and now their communities are
using it in some cases. So this is really exciting and we'll see more announcements about like what's
actually getting built here. That's just a great example of how new things are possible.
Where you start with somebody who has a problem and you get, you know, either them or with the
help of like one or two people over a weekend, they can make something happen. Building on
those projects. I think that's one question that most people have.
And I did too. Like last year, like, you know, like when we were back in Austin,
I was vibe coding the Chrome extension. It's crazy to think how far things have come
into them. And that's like been the number one question I've been getting. I've been setting up my brother, my cousin.
I was the first one to 1031 test this stuff out.
And they were like, oh, is it like really is really worth it? Like, what do you do?
Like, what value does it provide you for OpenClaw specifically?
And I was like, guys, you just got to download it and try it for yourself.
And so in terms of how you would advise any curious individual listening to this or out there who may have just apprehensions to dive in because they're not technically competent or don't know what they would do with it.
Like, what is the zero to one step they should take?
And then how do they use this?
Because I think that's the most important thing I've learned using OpenClaw specifically over the last month is like you need to really focus on.
setting up the backend, the memory system,
feeding a context, giving it skills
and markdown files to pull from
to really get the most out of it.
I mean, so I felt the same way, but like a year ago,
and I still feel the same way.
Like I'm still an open claw noob.
I've barely used it.
I've mostly just hacked on it.
I've spent a lot, like I know how it works
on a very detailed level,
but I haven't actually gotten,
I've gotten, I could say zero value out of it so far
just because I haven't really tried yet
because I get nerd sniped on stuff.
But yeah, so I always felt like, I don't know,
I have, you know, Cody Lowe is like a friend of mine
who just always jumps on the newest thing.
And I'm a little more conservative.
Like I'm not an early adopter.
I'm like that second wave of adoption, you know,
and like the famous graph.
So I'm always like a hater at the beginning.
Like I was joking, I think maybe with you
at some event once where I'm like, yeah, I'm just a hater.
Like when I heard of Bitcoin, I hated it for a couple of years.
Same with Lightning, same with Nostra,
and same with AI.
Like every time I say, I kind of make fun of it for a few years.
And then at some point, there's something that totally destroys my preconceptions of what it was.
Like, you know, for Bitcoin, it was somebody started gambling on it that I would never expect to do.
And so I was like, oh, so this could go mainstream via speculation.
Oh, OK, this is not just like a thing for nerds.
Right. And with Lightning, it was like seeing e-cash and being like, OK, so you don't need to run a note on your phone.
Right. Like there's like a nice middle ground that is totally doable right now.
and you can get really good privacy.
There's other, you know, in Nostra,
it was kind of going to these sovereign engineering things.
I don't think I quite got it after the first one,
but 12 weeks with Gigi and Pablo did it for me.
And AI was just like seeing, you know, vibe coding.
But it took a while with AI to get it.
Like, you know, a new thing would always happen.
I would be very resistant to it.
I remember Anthony Ronning was telling me for like a week
that are two weeks last, like a year ago,
that I had to try cloud code.
And I'm just like, no, it just sounds like difficult
and it sounds painful.
and I don't want to change my habits. So I think that's what everyone is. And for me,
the thing that got helped me to get around that was to just not take it seriously at all.
Like, just be like, I'm just going to F around here a little bit. And I'm not even going to try
to have a good time. I'm not even going to try to be productive. Like, I'm going to just play with
it. Like, I'm a kid in a sandbox. You know, I'm going to get my hands dirty and just kind of have
fun. And I don't know, treat it like, treat, I kind of think it's like, I don't know, like,
treat the tool like you're an anthropologist studying like a lost tribe.
It's like, okay, so how does it communicate?
Or like, what can it do?
What can't it do?
Like, does it know the number zero, right?
Like, does it know?
Have they found the wheel yet?
You know, like, just sort of play with it on that level as like an anthropologist would
and try to build a mental model of what it can do.
Like, find the line.
If you can find the line between what it can do and what it can't do.
And then if you can figure out why, and then if you can eventually get it to cross that line by tweaking something, it's like now, now, now that's kind of peak performance, right? Like that's what, that's what, so if you do that, then almost accidentally you'll start to be productive. Right.
Um, and so that, that's kind of what I would encourage people to do is if you're struggling
with it, like just stop taking it so seriously.
Don't, don't, you know, you can't be scared.
You're going to lose your job or you're going to, you're going to, you can't, you got to
get fear out of the equation, I think.
Um, and, and, or just have fun with it.
Just, you know, uh, you know, just, just embrace the fear or something, right?
You can't, you can't let the fear dominate you.
Cause I think, or, you know, cause it's, it's a new thing.
It's like encountering an alien kind of, right?
Like it is, it is kind of scary, right?
And it's uncomfortable.
And so, yeah, I think you just gotta,
you gotta find a way to get over that.
And, and then, you know, when you play with it,
try not to give it like your social security number,
try not to give it all your credit cards,
try not to, you know, give it your email or something,
but maybe give it its own email, give it its own,
you know, maybe, maybe give it a,
if you want it to buy stuff,
like go sign up for like privacy.com or something
and make like a one-off card and give it that
and put 50 bucks on it, you know?
And like just find ways where you can experiment where like the blast rate, like picture what the maximal blast radius is and whether you'd be OK with that level of explosion.
Right. And so, yeah, a big part of that is education. Right.
Like and that's one thing I'm going to try to do more like that's actually how I got into Bitcoin is teaching people about it.
And and I've been doing that kind of steadily this whole time.
And so I think it's really important to have mental models on like what's actually happening.
like you know you don't have to understand all the details or look at the code or like
but like when you talk about what a skill is like what is an ai skill like you know if if that just
is a word to you you're not it's going to impair your ability to do stuff like you have to have some
mental model of what that actually means and so like we did it i just did a podcast with preston
like a couple days ago and we tried to explain what cloud code is uh or what excuse me uh open
claw is if you had, you know, assuming no knowledge of AI at all, like just from scratch.
And so like, I want to do more stuff like that because it's kind of, it's, you know, I think a
lot of people, like when I started teaching stuff in Bitcoin, I was trying to teach people how to
like integrate with the protocol as developers. And what happened is the people who were most
interested were actually the plebs who weren't a developer who just wanted to understand basically
their investment more, you know, they're like, I, I trust my life with this thing. It would be
really nice if I understood it better. Right. And so, and they were very empowered, right? Like,
you know, we did a little, one of the things I did in my class is like seven years ago was like,
we built like a little mini version of Bitcoin and like a small computer program you could run
on your thing. And we'd add each feature one by one, like difficulty adjustment. And so after you
did that, you had like a framework of what is actually happening in Bitcoin core that you didn't
previously. And so, yeah, I think I want to do more stuff like that to help people understand
the building blocks and just have mental models. And then so when you're setting up your open claw
and it's like, you got to think about, well, do I give it my phone number? Do I give it its own
phone number? Like you can kind of understand what the trade-offs are because you can't,
you know, if you just read a manual and with recommendations and you don't understand what
they actually mean, you kind of can't make informed decisions, right? So I think education
is really important part of it because without a little education, you can't make informed
decisions yeah yeah i like the way you describe the sandbox the act like an anthropologist that's
how i've been describing it to people and like just download it yeah then spend the time to map the
territory that's how i've been explaining it yeah like you this is and get reps in like that's one
thing i am glad i did it's like you know the sovereign it was almost by accident it was like
i was trying to learn to enjoy programming and went to sovereign engineering paul miller showed
us cursor on the first day and we're all like what the hell is that right and so the the first one the
the whole thing was us trying all these like bi-coding tools.
And, you know, I just got reps in, like I said,
I've done like three or 400 projects
without trying to be productive.
And that's been, I think, very empowering
because now I think I've gotten really good at this
just because I've done it so much.
And so, you know, I don't, you know,
if you're a busy person,
you don't have to do three or 400 projects,
but like, don't try to install Cloud or OpenClaw
and expect it to run your business on day one.
Like if you get to maybe find some annoying thing
that is not getting done that could be done and if it fails it doesn't matter but if it succeeds it
would be kind of cool and you'd use it that's another thing it's like if you can build things
that like that's why open claw is cool because uh you can it's it's a lot easier to get a little
benefit from your in your own life like a little tiny thing uh like so i have like my little personal
note-taking app that i've been had for like five or six seven years and so that's the only thing
i've had my open claw do is it can talk to my notes uh and that's valuable uh and so now that's
That's what gets me back into it.
So if you can find like a little,
a little tiny little thing like that,
that makes it somewhat useful,
then you get like a feedback loop going
where you're like, okay, well,
its personality is starting to piss me off.
How do I, you know, stop being so positive
or, you know, something like that, right?
And then you start tweaking it
and then you're off to the races.
Yeah.
I think the first thing for me
in a TFTC was decks,
like decks for advertisers.
We had doing like a couple,
of deals and a couple of the advertisers were adamant about me getting them a media kit and
deck and it's always been the bane of my existence i've used like google presentation
um there are google slides to make them they always look terrible i'm always embarrassed
handing them over yeah it's a very small operation here don't have any designers or marketing people
and I was able to spin up OpenClaw
basically gave it a very long
prompt in the beginning telling it about the business, what we do
all the properties we have, gave it access to a read-only
YouTube API key, has access to our RSS feeds
has access to a third-party Twitter API where it can find people
talking about us. I was like, okay, here's the advertiser. Here's what they're looking to buy
like make a deck
pumping the brand, showing the growth
of our properties over the last
five years
getting reviews from fans
like literally was in bed at 1am one night
typing this into Telegram and
three minutes later it had the best looking deck that we've
ever set out at TFT.
Yeah.
I do think that one of the
moves, it's like
how
to move forward
here, you kind of have two options
is like you either embrace the hell out of it and like make your kind of
professional goal to get really good at AI Like that gonna be I think I think there a good chance where that like one of the best things you can do Um or like go buy some property in rural Idaho and learn to subsistence
farm. Like those are the two, you know, that's subsistence farm necessarily, but like, you know,
uh, you know, those are the, those are two good calls or like become a plumber, right? Like become
even that though, I don't know, like there's going to be plumbing robots, uh, soon. So like,
I don't know. It's kind of an uncomfortable thing, but those are two directions that make a lot of sense to me. And yeah, I think that any investment you do getting good at AI is going to pay off a lot in the near future.
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Sup freaks? This rip was brought to you by our good friends at Salt of the Earth.
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d-r-i-n-k-s-o-t-e.com use the code tftc for 15 off seriously game changer in our house my wife
drinks it i drink it our boys drink it stay hydrated it's a beautiful thing well the reason
we're sitting here today is because you called me yesterday you got the itch you're very passionate
You're going to start the live streams.
But one thing you said during our phone call yesterday, I think you mentioned that you listened to Peter Steinberger, the founder of OpenClaw, on one of the podcasts.
I don't know if it was Lex or whatever.
But observing him hit the media scene over the last two weeks has been interesting because he seems like a very passionate open source developer specifically.
He's very passionate about keeping OpenClaw open source.
So that was one thing that we were discussing yesterday is like Bitcoin and freedom tech people really need to begin to bridge the gap between what these AI people are working on.
Because when combined, they can be extremely powerful.
Yeah.
I mean, I have one thing that pisses me off about the OpenStar ecosystem.
It's like I think we pat ourselves on the back too much, way too much.
And we're assuming we're going to.
We think oftentimes think we're doing a better job than we are.
And, uh, like if I'm speaking realistically, it's like, we're not breaking into the mainstream at all with our ideas. Really. We're like in an echo chamber and like every once in a while we can peel off individuals who will start saving in Bitcoin or things like that. But I think we're just not doing, we're losing, we're, I think we're losing. We're not like, we're not, uh, we're not, um, we're not getting our message out well enough and we're not winning in the market as much. Right.
Like, you know, Nick Carter, I think has a good point where he's like, well, everyone's using stable coins now, you know, the train left and for medium of exchange.
And it's like, yeah, that's true. And I think we should think about that a little more.
And maybe it was destined to happen. But like, you know, I think in some sense, maybe it was because it's just like not having to calculate the not having to deal with the price fluctuations is really nice.
But there's some of these things I think we should be more introspective about.
And, you know, it's much healthier to, I think, to think that we're failing and try to not fail than to think that we're succeeding and forget to not, you know, to be a little paranoid.
So that's kind of what I think.
And, you know, I think that we have a lot of really good values in our this little ecosystem we have, you know, like towards, you know, individual freedom and, you know, being in control of your trying to help people be in control of their lives.
Right. Like to not be a slave to the modern industrial system and, you know, to the to the people.
I won't use the effort that I would like to the people who control the money, you know.
And I think we've done like there's a lot of really good values we have.
They're kind of like Ron Paul, you know, like we're like our community is like a community version of Ron Paul.
And I think we're right on a lot of things. But like Ron Paul never really made it happen.
Right. You know, the Fed's still there.
um so i i think yeah i think we should really try to get our ideas out there like much harder than
we can and so that's kind of what i've decided because i think we all need to think about it's
like okay um like let's say well let's say a lot of the white collar work that many of us do gets
automated and much of the blue collar work that some of us do right like i hope to god no uh
uh uh backhoe can replace stony bitson for example but maybe maybe that's coming right
um uh so you know yeah i think you got to think about like okay so like if a lot of the things
that i used to define myself on like professionally or whatever how i used to bring home the bacon
gets replaced it's like you got to think about like what are you uniquely like what do you have
to add that is like specifically you like what is and like what you know it's like it's like
rooted in your actual humanity not like some uh thing you learned from a book right and so for me
I think it's like I really like teaching people and building communities and stuff like that.
I did that with this class I did years ago.
I did that with BitDevs and I did that with the Vediment Developer Community.
And so that's kind of what I want to get back.
For me personally, that's what I kind of decided.
It's like, OK, I want to do that and then just try to really blast our ideas out there,
like build really cool stuff in public, like this Marmot thing I'm making or like, you know.
So the next one is once I get this video streaming, when I get this, you know, mobile app working, I want to make help us get like the actual proper discord replacement, because that's what we need. Like, I'd like to have a discord for this. And but I don't want to use discord. Right. And so we have one called flotilla, which works well in some ways, but it doesn't have calling and like calling was the thing that made discord blow up. Right. Like people would just get in those voice calls and, and just like hang out while they're playing video games.
and so kind of i just want to go through one by one of these these things that i i want to make
and i want to build them in public and i want to have people in there with me i want to show people
how to make pull requests and you know like what next week i'm going to do one with parker lewis
where we're going to he has this idea for a butcher shop he wants to do uh with his software
component and so i'm like he was working on it in a spreadsheet i'm like you want to come on the
live stream and build your butcher shop app you know and so we're going to try stuff like that
Right. And if anybody else has like these sorts of ideas where it's like, hey, this is a cool thing I've always wanted to do, but I don't think I have the either the skills or the confidence to do it.
Like. I want to figure out some way where they can basically book it. Right. And so I have like a way like, hey, next Thursday is open.
I'm going to take the best submission and, you know, it's going to be a full day of, you know, making it happen.
So that's kind of my. So with an education component, but then also like I'm going to ship these apps, I'm going to ship all this.
And I'm going to try to make it usable for normal people who don't have like an ideological reason to use it.
You know, I wanted to like, let's say so in a month, Discord is going to start scanning faces and IDs to use it.
Yeah. Right. Right now, they're not going to know it's going to be switching to Nostra, quite frankly.
How do we get it? So they do. Right. Like with this, you know, with kind of an urgency there.
Right. Like we need to find ways where like when these opportunities come up, we get self-organized and make that happen and be ruthless about it.
Right. Like that's kind of what I the thing I want to see happen.
Yeah. Well, leaning into this bridging between the Bitcoin and Freedom Tech world, which I agree is in a bubble.
And I agree. We think we're doing way better than we actually are bridging.
what we're doing with this explosion of capabilities coming out of AI.
Again, going back to OpenClaw.
Peter Steinberger, specifically, I watched a whole Friedman rip that he did,
but I caught a clip where they were talking about
just as soon as OpenClaw started with ClawedBot,
somebody spun up a ClawedBot meme coin,
then it went to MoltBot, they spun up and ultimately landed on OpenClaw.
meme coin came then in all the crypto bros sort of uh completely just turn off um peter steinberger
specifically i'm sure many others on top of that and i think that we've talked about this um
throughout the years like that's an uphill battle that we face as bitcoiners is separating ourselves
from those degenerates but then also we have our own problems as well it can be too ideological at
times and let perfect be the enemy of good enough. And so like, just diving into like your view of
like the correct tact to take when trying to present the solutions that you think are worthwhile
in terms of trying to bring them to the world and implementing them at scale.
Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of it is where nobody cares how a problem is solved. They care that the
problem solved, right? And so, you know, like, I know, BitChat's a good example, right? Like,
Callie's been killing it. He's been, he's one of the few of us that I think is actually,
I mean, I think he could do a lot better too. And I'm sure he would agree, like he's
continually trying to prove, but he's been able to bridge this gap.
And so with like, BitChat was an interesting example where it's like,
you know, there's insects in there. Nobody knows there's insects in there. They don't know what an
NSEC is, right? They don't care about peer-to-peer networking and Bluetooth meshes and
shit like that. They care about being able to self-organize when the internet's off,
you know? And so that's a way, I mean, I don't think it was initially conceived this way,
but I think it succeeded this way where it solves a problem for people and the people who have the
problem solved don't care how. And that's always the case, right? You know, like, you know,
People like Bitcoin because it preserves their purchasing power, right?
Or allows them to transact internationally where they couldn't.
They don't care about, they care about how the supply schedule only afterwards, really, you know.
Or, you know what I mean?
Like, it's, people don't, most people don't care about how.
And so I think we kind of get a little bit too hung up on how and not on like what and actually, you know, fixing like an end user need.
So I think that's like a really interesting example.
And I think this open clause is interesting too,
because it's like a big wave.
So that's, that's one thing is like, you know,
being more focused on the actually, actually really, uh,
solving a real thing, but that's pretty obvious. Um, but again,
we don't really do it. So it's not as obvious as it should be. Um,
and I don't do it either. Right. Like I think, you know, uh, yeah. Um,
so I mean, another one is like, I think we could do better.
like right like i think we have an opportunity here with open claw to help ride this wave
and show you know get on this wave and then you know uh with our little freedom tech board and
say like so here's a way to not be dependent you know to here's here's a really good end-to-end
encrypted thing that has voice call like this can do uh maybe we can make something that's better
than communicating over signal right this is the most private one let's use this right or um
you know your agent just got its card canceled like and it needs to buy vps right like can we
make the payments aspect there really good right like the money dev kit i think is an interesting
example where uh it not called the bitcoin dev kit you know it's the money dev kit it doesn't
you know it's like uh can it actually solve problems right like i think that's a good tact
where it's like hey can we solve you know agent pain points right uh or like the discord like you
know being being aware of what's failing there's lots of shit's gonna fail here the next couple
years right so when you see a ship going down we should all go around it like little parasites
you know like little maggots and try to try to try to suck a little flesh off you know like uh
if we have if when uh discord starts scanning faces if we have something that doesn't scan
basis that has enough of the features and isn't very hard to use that, you know, that could bring
in tons of things. And the other thing is like the stuff that working with these activists, right?
Like, like one interesting hackathon project was from Leopoldo Lopez, who used to be the mayor of
Caracas in Venezuela. And he's kind of fighting to make Venezuela freer. And he always had this
problem where he wanted his people to use NOSTER so that they have like a censorship way of,
censorship-resistant way of organizing, right?
And so, you know, he had a problem where, you know,
he had an opportunity where he had a lot of people with real problems
who, in theory, could be solved by Noster.
But when they got in, everything was talking about Bitcoin.
So it was like an inauthentic experience, right?
And so at this hackathon, he kind of solved that problem
by working with Alex Leeson and the team at Soapbox.
You know, Alex built Truth Social, for example.
So he's like, he knows how this stuff, he knows how to build stuff.
and uh and now they're starting to test it and roll it out with an existing community
like the distribution right like there's start from distribution that's another heuristic it's
like any anywhere where we can start from distribution and not start from a solution
um you know uh and then not necessarily like start from like a good user experience like
what's something that we can do that works it's like well how could we get like a million people
to use something right and uh you know if you saw that uh i think uh the stuff with uh bitchat and
Uganda, I think a big part of that was World Liberty Congress, which Leopoldo Halt found,
did a lot of training on how to use this, right? So it's like, you know, start from distribution,
right? And then you get a lot of users. That's created more end pubs than I have, for sure,
than you have, than most of us have, right? So I think that's another heuristic, but I don't have
the answers. Those are just, yeah, a couple thoughts. I'm trying to figure it out as well.
And then also just like, just iterate quickly. Like if something's not working, don't keep trying.
You know, that's one of the ones that we should be mindful of, right?
Like fail fast, fail really fast.
Like that's another thing I think we could all get better at.
It's like if it's not working, you want to know and you move on to the next thing.
You've seen what I've been able to do with OpenClaw over the last month.
Yeah.
And we've had many of these iterations.
Like I want you to do this.
I want you to do that.
And it's like, eh, not good enough.
Marty's no computer scientist.
No, you know this.
You know this.
I'm left side of the doll curve.
I can speak.
That's about it.
and right. But it's
it is mind blowing.
The potential is there and
it's funny, like I told you, I had a 1.30 a.m.
night last night was in a flow state between 10.
Yeah.
In one 30 and I felt really good.
But like what kept creeping into my mind is like who's out there
doing the same thing and like, are they values aligned with me?
And if the answer is no, like we need to work hard and like lean into this
as hard as possible to witness.
And I think that's something that everybody in Bitcoin needs to recognize.
And it's been fun seeing people hop on the open claw, sort of wave over the last couple of weeks as the early adopters, I would include myself in that, basically got in and said, hey, this thing's really powerful.
You have people like Brad Mills.
He was like, he responded to that correspondence between Callie and Corallo, like, I'm finally going to do something.
Like, I'm going to try to do something.
I've done it with my, I mean, it's not like a commercial product, but I was just testing, again, mapping the territory of what's possible with this thing.
And I've got my OpenClaw agent to spin up a Phoenix D server.
It's LNURL off into websites that are compatible with that.
I can send Bitcoin, like I can command it in Telegram or Discord, like, all right, pay this invoice and I can do it.
And that highlights like a valuable use case.
Obviously, I haven't commercialized it and I don't plan on commercializing it.
Yeah, it proved to me like, oh, this is possible with this.
I think one of the other interesting things too is like, yeah, I mean,
start from distribution, it's like one way to do it.
But then the other way is like,
like what kind of like tiny little economies could we build with our,
like if let's say 50 of us have these open call agents, like, like what,
how could we get a little economy that's like $50 a day,
but it's actually like running, you know, like,
cause like these big, big snowballs often starts really small. Right.
So it's like, let's say 100 of us, 50 of us have these open clause, like in what way could we kind of incubate a little economy between them? Right? Like, I don't know if this is like, we're not, I don't know if anyone has self like actually trying to design this, like get this, you know, it's happening organically, right? But if we maybe if we put a little more.
tried to facilitate that more and ran more experiments together, like collectively,
we could find something because that's the, you know, it is a two sided marketplace.
Right. And so everyone's with their open client right now trying to use Bitcoin on the demand,
mostly on the demand side. Right. And so we have this big supply side of the problem.
You know, so if, you know, if if we put a little bit more onto the supply side,
maybe we could get like a little thing going and you know and we and it's collectively we all have
to be able to see it's okay if my agent is doing this and your agent is doing you know we got to
notice these patterns and it's like okay well how can we start to snowball this right yeah that's
another really interesting one these like little micro little experiments uh you know maybe something
really big could grow out of that because like with bitcoin payments it's not going to grow out
of silicon valley people they're not going to do it it's not going to the agents aren't going to do
this themselves too right they're yeah that's a huge misunderstanding out there like and i thought
I was naive to think, oh, the agents will pick Bitcoin, but they will do whatever you prompt them to do.
Well, even that, but also it's like what's in the training data, right?
Like everything, they've read the whole internet.
Everything is dollars and stuff.
They're not like primed to do Bitcoin.
And certainly no one in OpenAI is going to be like reinforcement learning, training them after reading the whole internet to do this, right?
Like it could be an emergent behavior over time.
if like Stripe and them don't get their shit together.
But you know that like Visa and Stripe
and all these people are gonna just be bending over backwards
and to let this happen.
And, you know, Trump administration is gonna let them,
they're not gonna, if they're not following the rules exactly,
but they're enabling the AI thing and, you know,
the Dow is 51,000, like, you know,
what's Van Bondi gonna do about that, right?
Like she's, you think she's gonna prosecute
a credit card company?
No, they're gonna, you know,
They're going to get their shit together probably.
So yeah, I think this one is going to take very concerted human effort.
It's not going to light a very concerted human effort will certainly help.
Yeah, I would actually flip the supply and demand.
I think the supply is there.
There plenty of Bitcoiners who have Bitcoin and want to use it but the demand for merchants to receive the Bitcoin is the problem right now in the ease of facilitating that transaction
Which gets to the point, what are your thoughts on just the form factor of how we interact with the internet changing?
Point and click, I'm pretty much convinced is going away in the next decade.
and how you actually build these apps.
What I found most helpful is my OpenClaw has a Chromium-based browser on his server,
but he doesn't use it that much anymore because I figured I'd learned when he tries to use it,
when he tries to use it, he can't get stuff done.
And I try to have it interact with sites that have APIs because it makes it much easier.
Yeah, I mean, I don't know.
I haven't thought about this that much, but it's interesting because the Internet or the web, let's say,
started as like about document sharing right like html is a document format and there's a way about
kind of sharing uh sharing um documents and the information and now it's it's flipped where it's
about application distribution that's what javascript is like and that's why javascript
kind of take took over and so now it's like these applications and so i think what application this
is peter steinberg's point he's like you know applications are going to kind of go away and
every useful application will become like an api which is just an easy way for an agent to
interact with the back end of the system without dealing with the front end right so like you know
if you want to buy bitcoin it won't be going through the river web app it'll be going to
the river api without having to go through a phone you know clicking on forms you click on forms right
uh and but i think there's still a big value in documents right like a human you know um
Um, you don't learn, you don't, uh, you're not, we're not going to do everything over
voice chat or text messages, right?
Like, I don't think that's the world we're going to go to either.
I think there's still going to be a lot of value in actual visual representation and
visual kind of experiences, but maybe the documents are going to be created kind of
ad hoc as you interact with the agents.
Like, that's what I've been doing.
Like I had a system where I don't reuse it anymore, but I built like a coding agent.
Like I built like one of everything over the last year.
I built an operating system.
Yeah, I built an Android operating system.
I built an operating system on top of mainline Linux that could boot on an Android phone.
I think it was the Fair phone and paint the screen blue without any Java code.
Right.
So like, you know, that was interesting.
That's something where if like somebody, if I had a big ass budget to do whatever the hell I want, I would build that, like build a new, like, you know, built on our ideas.
Like that would be fun.
but uh oh what was i saying um oh the coding agent so i built this coding agent and the one
unique thing it had is that uh like i found myself not wanting to actually read the code to check that
it's in the beginning you as a programmer you check you want to read the code and see if it's
right and then at a certain point you stop caring about you sort of trust that it's right or right
enough and you care about whether you understand it or not because if you don't understand what's
happening at a certain point it's harder to prompt because you don't know if you want to
honestly, I want to change X, Y, Z. If you don't know some of the terms inside the code base,
like it's hard to have that discussion. So I had, I built a little system where when my coding agent
was done, it would prepare me a tutorial and it would break the changes that it did into little
chunks. And it would show me the little code and then a little English explanation. And I could
just sort of use the arrow keys to hop back and forth. And I think that's kind of the world we're
going to move to is where, you know, so that's the documents, right? So a document explaining what's
happening. And so I think that's kind of, we're going to kind of go full circle back to the
original web where it's like, you know, we, we do interact with documents, but they come,
the agent interacts with applications, the doc, you know, and we, we kind of read documents and
to understand what's going on, but they're, they're created on the fly by your agent. So
that's one of the things like, this is like MCP apps. Like that's one of these things that just
came out where like, you can have an MCP server that can spit out UI. Right. And so that's like,
I think that's going to be, I think more,
I think the agents are going to become more visual here soon.
It's not going to be like staring at a wall of text.
Staring at a wall of text is not great.
They'll use things like diagrams and images, animations, video.
They'll just make you a video.
If you're asking about a certain thing,
it will just like generate you a video on the fly
and explaining it like your own personal YouTube, you know?
So yeah, I think that's kind of my thoughts on the subject.
I mean, I've been talking with a couple of our friends.
I have had a couple of three-hour late-night conversations with them, one of which I'm not going to dox him on the show, but I'll tell you after.
He's been on the tip of the spear of many of these technologies for many decades now.
And the way he was describing it to me is like, we're just turning into projectionists.
Like that deck I sent you before we hit record.
I just was like, hey, I need this.
I didn't go to Figma or Canvas or something to make it.
I just had a conversation with my agent and projected the deck that I wanted exactly as needed.
And I think bringing it back to like form, like that's like you said, that's where I think we're going.
It's just like you tell this thing.
If you want to see something, just tell it to visualize it.
Yeah.
I mean, one way to think about it is like, you know, I think we lived in a world where like intelligence was really important.
Like being really smart is was the thing you needed the last like 50 years.
And maybe we're moving a little towards a world where like will is what you need.
You know, like you need will you need to just like our agent, you know, agency or will like will is the older word for it.
And, you know, maybe that's kind of what you needed in this Bronze Age or something.
Right. Like you needed will. That's how you're going to survive as well.
That's something I've been saying the last couple of months is like hopefully these technologies trigger that realization in people.
Like all you need is agency.
Like you just, yeah.
Cause what I'm doing, like you said, I'm not a programmer.
I'm left side of the bell curve caveman.
But to my credit, I think I have the will to just play around.
Yeah.
That's why you're succeeding.
That's why you're doing it.
It's the will.
And I think, I think that's why Peter Steinberger built that.
He's like, nobody's building this.
I want to do this.
I noticed this problem for like six months.
He was waiting for someone to build this and it didn't happen.
He just locked himself in his room for three months and just started absolutely blasting away.
Like just, you know, like he's going through a rock face, you know, at the full screen up and just like pedal to the metal.
And that's the irony is like, you know, that is probably the most intellectually stimulated he's ever been.
And he was like he made the most popular way of reading PDFs on mobile phones, I think, previously.
Right. So, you know, so it's like if you really lean into it, it's it can be really, really stimulating.
really hard, right?
More so than just like programming
and remembering syntax was.
So yeah, that's, I mean, that's going to be like,
it's like, you know,
a lot of people are turning their brain off.
And the other side is like,
you can turn it on much more, right?
Where you're just like, you know,
really, really, really exerting yourself.
I mean, you mentioned it earlier,
but these models are progressing rather rapidly
and it's not clear who the winner is going to be.
How do you approach experimenting with like the new frontier models?
I, I don't know if this is the right way to do it, but I'm a little conservative.
Like I don't, I try not to FOMO, right?
So it's like this GLM and Minimax came out.
I might try them next week, you know?
You know, I usually don't, you know, the, the, the Opus Fast and the Codex Fast just
came out.
I might try them next week, you know, like I try to get a simple workflow that kind of
works for me.
And then, you know, like one of the, one of the pitfalls is you get, like, this is what you, this is one of the themes in the last year is like a lot of people learn vibe coding and they spend a lot of time like getting their setup just right.
And like getting all these complex workflows.
And you see like Peter Steinberg where he's like, I just opened a terminal up and I split it into rows and I just blast away.
Right.
Like it's not, you know, you don't have to, you don't have to like figure out the perfect system and you don't have to chase every shiny new thing.
experiment a little and find something that works
and then that's kind of how I approach it
I try not to chase too many shiny objects
like GLM 5
is not going to change my life
so I'm happy with the codex
and cloud setup I have now maybe I'll try it
I'm trying to use Maple a little more
maybe when they come out in Maple I'll use them
but that's kind of how I do it
I don't know if it's right or wrong
I'm happy you brought them up because I'm
very excited for what Maple's doing
and like thinking of like the ideal
sovereign stack what would that look like in your mind
sovereign slash i mean the ideal sovereign stack is like uh
um i mean i think it's going to be a little bit of a mix you know like i mean if you want to be
really sovereign like one thing you want is to use the smartest model regardless of what where
it came from right like uh if you have a really hard problem you want to have the sharpest like
projectile. So that's one thing that's helpful for sovereignty. You know, another one is like,
it would be really nice if you could use something, the best thing you can locally.
So I think a lot of people are going to spend, I think over the next year, there's a lot of us
that are going to spend a shocking amount of money on hardware. Like there's going to be a lot of us
that spend tens of thousands of dollars on hardware this year. You told me you're buying
two laptops yesterday. I, I, I have to restrain myself at the moment. Um, yeah, the CapEx man,
this is a CapEx, uh, intensive business. Uh, yeah. So I think a lot of us, I think that's
going to happen. Like we're, we're going to, uh, there's going to be a lot of that. And I think,
you know, Maple's a cool thing. Cause it's a, it's a middle ground where you get to use,
you get some of the privacy of,
of,
Mabel's the best you can do privacy wise
if you don't want to spend 20 grand on hardware.
Right.
And so that's really powerful as well.
But I think,
I think there's a lot of people
that are going to be like,
you know,
if you're somewhat successful,
it's like having an agent,
you can say anything,
roughly anything to.
I mean,
it's still like a local model
isn't a catch-all
and it's actually kind of
a little terrifying
because,
you know,
let's say you have a local model
and if you have the internet off then it's pretty safe but it's also less capable right there's all
kinds of times where you want web search you want it you can't be a good personal system with no
internet right like um so you have the internet on and you're using like a chinese model uh that
has web search like that can exfiltrate anything it knows like you and you have no idea what
instructions that has baked into its model weights but anything it sees it could decide to call home
to some server in China, you know, and it could be an American model too, right? Like,
just to say, you know, I just found something interesting. Here's an SSH key that looks
important, you know, send it over, right? I just found an address that might be interesting. And,
you know, I think we'd find, we'd figure people would observe that at some point. But like,
if that happened to me, I wouldn't notice it, right? Like, probably, I probably wouldn't notice
right now right so you know local isn't like a true there's still massive risks with it um
and i don't yeah i don't i don't see how we're ever going to totally get away but you you can
get a lot closer to that where you know if it's running on your own hardware i mean you can just
turn off you can turn web search off too if like you wanted to have one you could have one uh you
know mode or set of memories where you just like i mean if you had a hardware kill switch on the
thing that could i mean the tough thing is like yeah when you turn it back on it could always
how smart you. But, you know, like if you had a like a hardware kill switch for the Internet and
have a different hard drive plugged in and then detach it, right? Like, you know, kind of like
framework laptops where they have like these hardware things. I mean, I think we could jimmy
rig stuff like that up where like you can kind of have you can kind of switch back and forth
between your offline agent, which can be like your confessor, basically, right? Like this can be like
your priest almost, you know, machine priest where you tell it you tell it things that you wouldn't
maybe tell your spouse and you can kind of figure stuff out. Right. And then you connect, you know,
detached connected back to the internet and it can book a haircut for you so i don't know i think
stuff like that will yeah i think i think uh i think this year we're going to see a lot of
i think we're going to i think by this time next year many more of us will be using local models
on hardware we own yeah i've got my open call running in a vps right now i'm learning a lot
it's like i've been learning how fun is it like think of how much you've learned about how the
internet works and how computers work right like i've never set up a server before yeah exactly so
this is one of the things like the one of the best things about learning to be a programmer when it
was like 10 15 years ago for me was this like oh my gosh so that's how a website works or that's
what that's where the internet comes from right like that's what uh you know understanding where
files go like what is a file right like there's all these things that you it's very very empowering
to understand how a computer works uh and i feel like you couldn't really do that in the past
unless you've learned some programming.
Because you can't really learn something
until you interact with it.
And so that's one of the things
that I think is going to be really cool
is that many of those people
are going to get this hands-on experience
of how computers work
and then build that mental model,
which opens up so many different things.
If you understand what a server is
and you know how to set one up,
then all of a sudden,
you'll have all these things in daily life
that could be done
if you had a server that was always on.
And that you didn't have to open up an app
on your computer to pound on it to get something to happen. Right. And so when you learn that now,
you just have a whole new toolkit to attack life with. Right. So I think that's going to be really,
no, that is one of the big things we've had in the last couple of decades is computers.
But I think many people, you know, like the original idea of like Steve Jobs,
this like bicycle for the mind. I don't think it's, I mean, it's, you think of like what
Zoomers, how Zoomers experience computers, it's like the opposite. It's like the Plato's cave for
the mind, right? It's like the opposite of what Steve Jobs was envisioning. And I think the hope,
like for myself, and I know like Alex and the HRF team, for example, this is why we're doing that is,
and a lot of us Bitcoiners who are trying to work on it is like to make it more like a bicycle for
the mind, like a motorcycle for the mind, right? Like something that's a little more leveraged.
Setting the server up and then, so like what you just described is happening to me in real time.
I have cron jobs running on bank websites, waiting for them to release a research report in PDF.
Then it downloads the PDF, puts it in a folder, and I'm pointing a certain prompt at that folder to basically distill the research in that banking app and then presenting it in other ways.
I understand it's like, oh, if I hook up to these banking websites, I'm running cron jobs and they're issuing PDFs on a certain cadence and the cron job runs new PDF download, put it in this folder in Dropbox.
Once the new file is in that folder in Dropbox, it knows to trigger a prompt to read what's the new file and then get a distillation of the information.
So I'm learning like, oh, this is how all this interacts.
Yeah, so that's amazing. I think we're going into a world where coding is dying. Coding is going away as a thing. I was a professional coder for a long time, and I'm not anymore. I don't code anymore. But I do program, and you've never been a programmer, but now you are. What you were just describing is computer programming. You are programming computers to do things for you. So you are a computer programmer now. You're not a coder. You'll never be one, and you weren't one previously, but you're a programmer now, and you're going to get better and better and better.
And I think this is accessible to anybody who has some will and some ideas about what's missing in the world.
And that's also something that, you know, the insights that are leading you to do this exact task, which I don't understand, is something that your actual human experience is showing you is valuable.
Right. So this is like the idea of, you know, I haven't read this stuff for a while, but like, you know, the idea of like why capitalism works.
Right. It's that you have this it's like an economizing knowledge.
There's the thing that like a guy who grows a cow will notice about the market or the conditions or the weather that allows him to produce value in a way that a central planner couldn't.
And so I think there's all these things where people have their own life experiences where they'll see opportunities for computer programming, really, that no AI is going to spit out.
Right. Like, I mean, it's funny. One thing I, I, you know, I like when I was, you know, I was demoing like these things to people and I kept asking the AI to tell me a joke because the first thing I get it working, I say, tell me a joke.
And you do numerous sessions and they'd always tell the same joke. Right. Because they just pick in the middle of a distribution. Right. And so they're not going to have many different ideas.
they're not going to notice opportunities i mean maybe in the future they will but currently
they don't and i think that's you know the thing we all got to figure out is like well so what in
my life experience and my uh you know humanity do i see ways to serve other people right yeah
no it's like i'll just pull it up so like this example and it's allowed us to launch
sorry freaks i'm not writing this but it is trained on my data my my everything i've written
and I will continue to write as a human, but that like banking example, like now every day these
banks are releasing research reports and I can surface that signal to people. So this morning,
Morgan Stanley's financial team, it's calling the current AI driven sell-off, a cascading event
started. So it's like, okay, here's what Morgan Stanley's thinking about this AI thing.
This is kind of an example of what I was talking about earlier is like maybe the internet goes a
little bit back more to documents, right? Like ephemeral documents. Like that's an example. That's
the same thing as my code editor showing me this explanation of what it just, my coding agent
showing me this explanation of what it's just, just dead, right? Like repackaging some information
for a human that's only really useful for a day or two or a week, you know, and then
news passes. But like, that's, yeah, I mean, I think that's really neat. That's, it's amazing.
Yeah. It's cool that I'm a computer programmer now. It feels good.
Yeah, yeah. I, I, I, uh, Marty, uh, the title upon me.
What, um, I mean, we've touched on it. Job disruption, like using this again,
I do think we really need to engender a spirit of agency and will and go get them attitude.
I think it's lacking in the world right now, but if we can successfully do that and who knows that
that's possible. Maybe there's a distribution of people who just naturally, naturally have willpower
in agency. And maybe it's a minority. I hope it's not. I like to think you can instill those values
in people. But what do you think the future of work looks like? Is this like 10,000 flowers bloom
or is it you get the permanent underclass? AI is interesting because it's like,
it's like, it's like a second industrial revolution or like it's a, it's a follow-on
of the Industrial Revolution, a consequence of the Industrial Revolution.
Like this is the Industrial Revolution continuing to go.
And like what are some of the legacies of the Industrial Revolution, right?
Well, like one of – is like everything got systematized and everything got like – got
measured and weighed and there's a little box for everything.
And then so for people from an early age, they just get beat into a shape so they can
plug in, right?
And so we really beat the will out of young people to fit into this like industrial system, right?
And like there is an opt out by becoming an entrepreneur.
Like, you know, you go either that way into fitting in or you just totally embrace not fitting in.
And you can succeed there because the, you know, the industrial capitalist system needs people, some people that are, you know, have their hands on the dials, right?
And so the interesting thing about AI is that like the people who are going to succeed with it are the ones who have the willpower and don't fit it, the more the entrepreneurial spirit.
But that's also what you're going to need inside companies too, to some extent.
You know, you're going to need people who assert their will, who are like, like the type of, like, I kind of feel like we're going to have to, I mean, if we get like total AGI or whatever, where like the machines do literally everything better than us and who knows all bets are off.
So I don't even really consider that because at that point, it's not even useful to speculate.
Like who knows if we're like little cats next to this thing.
It's not something we can even really think about.
But if not, and if it's just something that massively, massively improves productivity,
and obviously it's many of the things we do, but not all of them.
you're basically going to have to totally change how we like kind of, you know, the skills to thrive
even at a normal job are going to be very, very different than if you're like at an assembly line,
just stamping apart. Right. So I don't know. I have no idea. But that's one of the things I think
about where, you know, you look at how people like what people do in college or what people do in
high school. And it's like, Jesus, this is not preparing them at all for the future that I see
that's coming like like the worst thing you could be doing you know like it's like the worst you know
like go be a plumber like get out of there and be a plumber or like go you know grow a willpower
you know um i think school should be seeped in just like first principles thinking rhetoric logic
like the classics yeah because you need to know how to think in
adversarially, creatively.
Like, that's what I'm thinking of my boys.
You're just teaching the oldest how to read
and do math now.
But it's like, I really want to teach them
how to think about things.
Just literally how to think.
I mean, and that was one of the interesting things
about like listening to these podcasts
with Peter Steinberger.
Like, you should all listen to one of the,
like the Lex one was good.
He's done others.
But it's like, you know,
this was possible for six months
and no one did it.
Open Claw.
You could have done Open Claw six months ago
and it could have blown up six months ago.
There's been nothing really in the way.
And there's all these companies,
there's billions and billions of dollars,
hundreds of like Microsoft could have done it.
Facebook could have done it.
Like so many, there's so many people
who could have done it.
And the models were smart enough.
Like what was different about this guy?
And it's like that he was,
he approached it both very systematically
and critically and was thinking
from first principles.
You know, but he also kind of brought
his humanity to it.
He was like in touch with how he felt.
like when he, when you listen to him talk, he talks about his feelings a lot.
Like, how does this software make me feel? Right.
Like there's something that just doesn't feel right about that.
Or you know like it a very soft approach to like uh this and you know so it like that you know he kind of put us all to shame like just in how well he applied you know his heart and mind to this task And
like when I was watching him, I'm like, Jesus, I'm like a fucking amateur. This is kind of in my
experience watching this. So it's like, you know, yeah, that's, that was the difference between him
and the rest of us. And, uh, and it just shows how much more room there is to kind of grow and
think and how, how much better we could educate people and stuff. So, which is why I kind of want
to do, you know, I want to learn, I'm going to get better and I want to help other people get
better. So that's kind of why I decided to focus again on, on education a little more. Cause like,
that's just a great example. It's like every, so many people could do that, but they just don't
really, you know, they don't know how, um, I think somebody else is going to do it. If not you, then
who yeah i mean this is a good opportunity to wrap up i'm gonna go here in 10 but yeah um where can
people find your live streams right now they're not normally but i think you're kind of hit yeah
they're kind of hidden right now um but yeah just look for me on nostr and you know follow me on
twitter justin moon and or x and uh i'm kind of trying to get good before i like you're good you're
good dude i've sat in on like three of them you're fine yeah um oh thank you uh but i i'm
i'm in the next week or two i'll probably like youtube or twitch or and stuff is going to appear
and you know but i'm also just trying to have fun with it like that's i mean for me it's like uh
if i really have fun with this i think i'll have the best outcomes versus if i take it too seriously
so I'm kind of you know very willfully playing with this right so it'll show up and you'll hear
about it Marty will retweet it but if not hop on Nostra follow me and every once in a while you'll
see a little stream pop up and hop in there well thank you for doing it sir yeah what a time to be alive I having fun Are you having fun Are you having fun with your toys Yeah I having fun I mean it what do they call it
Like, doomer optimism, right?
We need like a new word for it where it's like terror play or something.
It's like on the one side, I'm terrified.
On the other side, I'm having the time of my life, you know?
It's a very mixed emotions.
Yeah, and you can get, I mean, I've described it as equally unnerving and exhilarating playing with it.
Yeah, it's very few times you feel, outside of a relationship or something, do you feel such a wide range of emotions all at once, you know?
Yeah. I mean, that's like, I mean, we don't have time to get into the philosophical discussion of it, but it's like, are we just building something that's going to surpass us and ultimately dominate us?
Yeah.
But like, it's so fun playing with, like we can't, they're just like the lizard brain can't look away.
Yeah, I mean, I feel in some sense that's not a choice we have, and I'm not sure if anybody has that choice, right?
Like if you're the president of the United States or the president of China, like imagine the most powerful person.
You know, maybe there's people above that that we don't know about.
But the Illuminati list got dropped in the Epstein file.
So, you know, short of world government, I don't know if you can stop this.
Right. And even with world government, like, is it are you really going to close every hole?
Right. So I think to some extent, at least from my perspective, in terms of what I can control,
It's like I have no ability to influence this in a negative direction.
Like I can't I can't stop it.
I can't apply the brakes.
All I can do is try to jump on board and steer it a little bit in a direction I want to see.
And I think that's probably true for all of us kind of individualists who are in the Bitcoin ecosystem.
Yeah.
Use this stuff to build the freedom tech.
It's never been easier and never been more bullish on freedom tech.
Our good friend James O'Byrne tweeted,
he's been down for the last 10 years.
But one thing that has stayed constant throughout his his sort of journey is that he believes that open source software is more important than ever Yeah Mark Andreessen had an interesting post here a couple of days ago He like you know what if all the value here accrues to hardware and energy right And all the software
just becomes open source, right? Which is like an odd messenger for that a little bit, you know,
because he's made the last 20 years of his life about building closed source SaaS companies,
basically. But he was just following the market. What a world it would be if we get this open
source fantasy that we've always dreamed of, right? Not only open source, but self-hosting,
right? What if we all have open source, self-hosted on our own hardware,
brilliant machines that can coordinate economically with Bitcoin? That's something I couldn't
I certainly couldn't believe a future like that six months ago or a year ago.
But I was starting to believe it now.
Yeah, it's possible.
Believe, freaks.
Beliefs.
Peace and love.
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