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You've had a dynamic where money has become freer than free.

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You talk about a Fed just gone nuts.

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All the central banks going nuts.

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So it's all acting like safe haven.

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I believe that in a world where central bankers are tripping over themselves to devalue their currency,

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Bitcoin wins.

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In the world of fiat currencies, Bitcoin is the victor.

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I mean, that's part of the bull case for Bitcoin.

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If you're not paying attention, you probably should be.

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How can we tie tennis to Bitcoin?

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I think one thing you just said, it's a mental battle.

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You're all by yourself on an island.

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Yeah, that's true.

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Yeah, how can we tie it?

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How can we tie tennis into Bitcoin?

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Well, this is actually, this is a great segue.

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you were just talking about tennis Wimbledon final was yesterday center beat Alcazar and

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as God was just explaining to me he's been getting into tennis and it's a transition

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for you because you played soccer your whole life team sport high contact moved to tennis

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one-on-one mental battle I feel like this is something Bitcoiners know all too well the the

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internal mental battle you're basically know something that most people in your immediate life

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do not understand or grok and you're constantly battling volleying with them trying to explain why

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bitcoin can lead to a potential enlightenment which you wrote a whole book about yeah yeah

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exactly now that's actually a good way to segue into this yeah i mean the mental struggle is real

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with Bitcoin for sure.

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You know, I mean, I've experienced it my entire life

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or like my entire life,

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like the last nine years, I would say, you know,

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like it's just been, yeah, you come across this thing.

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It really dawns on you.

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And for me, I have to say like my Bitcoin story

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is really because I've been into Austrian economics.

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I was really curious during my university year.

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So it did click once I found it,

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which wasn't that early, 2015-ish or something,

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You know, when I was, I think I told you last time I was in Auburn, Alabama at the Mises U summer school and it clicked for me immediately, you know, and I was like, I was, yeah, I was hooked from the first second.

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And then obviously, yeah, just grasping everything.

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The more you get to know, you want to talk to people about Bitcoin and they just sometimes, they just don't care, you know, and then you have to sort of talk to yourself.

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And every now and then, if we have the all time highs that people come and they ask about Bitcoin and how to make a quick buck.

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And you're like, well, now is not actually the time I want to tell you about it.

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Why haven't you come a little earlier?

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And then, you know, it's just this really this struggle.

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And at some time, at some point I was like, OK, better just stick to myself, you know, do my podcast, maybe do a group of people that maybe want to join me and follow along.

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And I'm still sort of here in Switzerland, I have a small following of a couple of hundred people, but they are now really interested.

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And obviously they have had the mental journey as well and have tagged along.

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But for everybody else, it's just, yeah, I feel like I could have, with the curiosity that I have, at least in my friend circle and stuff, I could have helped maybe other people financially.

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but in the end it's also not it's not it's not my obligation you know if people don't want

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but that's that's the thing and that's why i i just always try to yeah be my own call coach and

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and learn more and that's what tennis is about you know you just nobody you can talk to coaches

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but in the end it's with every sport but with tennis particularly you know you really have to

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go go into the flow and at some point you feel like now now i'm getting it you know and

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it just becomes natural and so that's that's that's the amazing part about it as well

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yeah you reach a level of zen where you where you know the basics you put in your 10 000 hours

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and you could just sort of operate that's where i feel like today especially as it pertains to

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bitcoin i found my bitcoin zen we're meeting at another all-time high currently sitting like right

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under $122,000 per Bitcoin, which is hard to, it's not really hard to imagine when it's like,

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we all think this day is going to come. And we've been proclaiming that it's going to come for many

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years, but now it's here, it's like, holy crap, Bitcoin's $122,000. Yeah. I mean, the excitement

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isn't like, that's what I sometimes get, you know, people who are close to me that are like,

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dude, you don't seem to be as excited anymore, you know, as you used to be. And obviously this

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is probably also some sort of marginal return or declining marginal you not not utility but

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something is like obviously when it was in 2017 and we had this first push you know where where

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i was involved i was yeah like stupidly even making videos to some of my closest friends you

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know like head banging my head uh to the all the meme songs that we had and i pulled them up every

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now and then on my iPhone, they're like, dude, what was I doing here? And nowadays it's like,

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that's what I hear. Where's the excitement? And I feel like a lot of Bitcoin or you and others

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for sure as well feel that it's like, yeah, it's the vindication obviously, but we're so mentally

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in that, in this thing that we're like, yeah, it always had to come that way. It had to,

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the fulfillment was pre-programmed, so to say, and now it's actually happening. And so maybe,

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yeah it's this meme you know with the candle you go like okay 122k and now let's go next all-time

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high when it's coming yeah there's a diminishing marginal return on dopamine hits you get from

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from bitcoin pumps over the years that's probably it exactly yeah you get to your zen zen state and

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it's like okay it's happening let's try to usher as many people onto the lifeboat as possible while

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we can not be too pushy but put the content out there it is here if you want it writing it and

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that's what i mean diving fully and transitioning fully into the bitcoin enlightenment um i'm still

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waiting to get my hard copy but you guys did have uh a chapter available on uh the safe house so i

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read that this morning took some notes and i guess let's just start before we jump into

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maybe we can talk about chapter four the economic murder of god but it's the book overall you co-wrote

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it with um ricardo salinas and um one other gentleman whose names daniel jung and he's a

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swiss uh fellow colleague of mine yeah yeah so you daniel and ricardo got together how did you

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three connect yeah why why this book specifically yeah it's sort of a weird story i mean uh me and

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Daniel, we've been longtime friends.

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I've been in Bitcoin.

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I sort of maybe orange-pilled him.

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One of the people I managed to orange-pill because he has this natural curiosity as well.

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And at some point, he was like, you're in this Bitcoin thing.

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Can you tell me more?

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And then he got interested in himself and did his own sort of study and stuff.

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And so we've just been longtime friends.

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And then we started our journey as digital nomads, sovereign individuals, where me, my

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wife and him, because again, he was just the one really tagging along.

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We asked some other people if they would join us on this journey, and he was the only one

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that would really come along.

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And so we went to all these different places all over the world, experiencing what Bitcoin

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culture is like in these countries like Pakistan, Argentina, other countries.

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And one of the countries was Mexico as well.

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And I was Googling to see if I could interview or talk to any interesting people who are in

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Bitcoin in these countries. And in Mexico, it was Ricardo Salinas that obviously was all over

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the internet when you Googled for a Bitcoiner, a real Bitcoiner. And I was like, wow, that's an

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interesting dude. He's the owner of 24 companies still. His conglomerate is 170K employees all over

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Latin America, mostly Mexico, and I think into the US as well. And so I was like, really impressive

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that somebody like of his ranking and status could really have the time to also focus on

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Bitcoin and be that knowledgeable.

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From what I read online, and that's why it piqued my interest, I reached out to him and

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his team and had to do a couple of rounds until they sort of figured out, okay, that

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dude knows one or two things about libertarianism, about Austrian economics, topics he's interested

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in as well.

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And that's why he then said, okay, you can come to the headquarters and we do an interview. And we did that interview with him, got sort of viral on YouTube, went really well. And so that's why the book was born, because I then followed up and asked, would you be interested in sort of co-authoring a book with us? And he was like, yeah, yeah, sure, let's do this.

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And then we had a couple of more back and forth with him.

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In the end, we were the ones writing it, putting in the hard work in terms of like really doing the typing and everything.

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And we just spun a lot of the sentences and ideas in the books off of his sort of ideas that he shared with us.

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And we were just impressed, even though, as I said, he doesn't have that much time on his hand with all the companies.

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He's still pretty well informed and just an amazing dude.

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And so, yeah, that's how it came about.

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And just for us, obviously, a great opportunity to do something like this with a person of his profile.

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Yeah.

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And I mean, this has been a theme or a sub-theme within Bitcoin for a while.

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People, like I truly believe that Bitcoin is one of the most revolutionary pieces of technology,

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specifically monetary technology that humanity has come into contact with in quite some time.

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innovation on par with the internet steam engine printing press name your pivotal technological

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advancement over the last two millennia and bitcoin i think stands on the pantheon of those

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sort of demarcation technologies and i do truly believe in fix the money fix the world is

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is something we say a lot here at tftc it's outside of our studio in austin bitcoin fixes this

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is a very popular meme and i think it's one that when i put out there gets the most pushback

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it's like bitcoin doesn't fix everything like that we're not going to fix if we fix the money

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it doesn't mean we fix the world there's so many other bigger problems and i agree bitcoin directly

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is not going to solve these problems but i do think indirectly falling back to like economics

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101, positive and negative externalities exist as a concept. And I think the negative externalities

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that emanate from a broken monetary system do inevitably touch everything. And so if you can

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fix that problem at the core of the system, which is money, money is one half of every transaction,

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arguably the most important tool we use as humans like if you can fix that core issue and turn those

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negative externalities into positive externalities you can begin to fix everything and i think

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getting to that point of understanding does

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uh it it sort of you need to have this enlightenment moment personally to get to that point

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yeah before you even get to that enlightenment point most importantly and what i can grok from

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chapter four from the book is you have to understand how everything got broken and the

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core of the system yeah exactly yeah or yeah no that's true maybe maybe to your point when it

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comes to like the does bitcoin fix everything i mean that's the question that i've been grappling

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with myself for quite some time and even writing the book you know like like really okay on what

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levels does it really fix things you know and maybe maybe this is something i'm still grappling

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with as i said you know and and even writing the book like maybe sometimes bitcoin get over their

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skis as well in terms of what it actually fixes, you know, and, and, or I have to put it this way.

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I'm like, I had really had to, in the book as well, that's what we did differentiate between

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different levels, you know, the individual one, like where it can really for, for, for like

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individuals like me, you and others, you can really say like fix stuff, you know, and, and,

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and help them to, to turn a better life and stuff. Societally, I'm, I'm with you in the sense of like,

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if the core foundation is really broken, a lot of things emanate from that, which are really bad.

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But at the same time, writing the book, doing the research, really digging deep into monetary

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history as well, and kind of figuring out how amazingly big or even like frighteningly big

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the government's sort of grapple or how would I say, strangle of money has always been. That's

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something that really impressed me as well. The state always really had this overarching hand over

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money. And even though there's like two stories to money, with the market emerging money,

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governments always wanted to co-op money and they have always. And so long story short, I'm still

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sort of at the point where I'm like, okay, will we really be fixing it on a societal

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sort of level?

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Or is Bitcoin just really the tool that challenges the old system, but maybe never really supplants

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it?

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But I mean, that's maybe a story for another day, so to say.

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But that's why we also then really hard separated the topics in the book, that we said, okay,

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we want to talk to the individual and really show the individual what has gone wrong.

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on a societal level and then how he can really save himself.

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And then we do speculate about a little bit the societal aspects

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and where he might be going, but there we're a lot less sure

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in the sense of like, okay, hyper-pricanization will really mean

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that everything else, all the fiat currencies, everything will go extinct.

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And so, yeah, that's sort of the separation we make in the book.

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But as you said it really important to really obviously then also show the individual where things went wrong and why he experiencing what he experiencing you know like uh yeah that because a lot of people feel that

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something with money is wrong but they just really can't really articulate and that's what we try to

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do as well yeah and so if you were to try to pinpoint exactly where in chapter four you talk

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about two monetary sins which is the creation of the central bank and the abandonment of the gold

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standard does the story of corruption of that monetary system start with the introduction of

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central banks or as you go further back you're mentioning government control yeah over money

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where would you say the the corruption of the system began well i mean yeah that's that's really

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hard to pinpoint in the end as i said i i believe that human beings probably also crave some sort of

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authority and just some sort of fiat structure. And they have always, you know, and that's what I

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mean when we go back in history. But it never could really get out of hand until maybe the

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foundation or the establishment of the central bank, you know. And that's when you look historically

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exactly, governments, they were around, they were messing with money, you know, with different

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gold currencies that they sort of debased. We all know the story, you know, all the Bitcoiners know.

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And we delve into all of this and really try to show that this has been a historic constant for people who might not know this, you know, culminating maybe in something called the Great Depression or the Great Debasement.

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Sorry, that's what it was called, you know, in England when some of the kings were really going full fiat already back then, you know, debasing the gold coins and the silver coins.

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And there's this interesting story, actually something that we learned from Ricardo himself, because he was always reciting this.

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It was really Henry VIII, I think, was this king back then, you know, and he was debasing the English currency back then as well.

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And people didn't know that this was happening.

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But then at some point they figured it out because the coins, he would then really remelt them, obviously.

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And they had like a core, which was out of copper and just sort of a silver coating.

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And because they had his face on it as well, on the coin itself, there was like this little

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nose that came a little further apart from the coin, so to say.

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And when that was rubbing against like the bags that the money was kept in, it came off,

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you know, the silver coating came off.

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And then you saw the copper coming here, the copper nose, so to say.

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And that's why this King Henry VIII, he went down as Sir Henry Coppernose.

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And that's really when people figured it out that he was tricking them.

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And so that was always the case.

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But it wasn't until the foundation of the central bank where this really got institutionalized.

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And we called it the first sort of monetary sin, exactly, because then they really found the way to perpetuate, you know, to continuously stealing from the public by having this entity that could finance wars and then also where they could bring in the private sector as well, you know, because the Central Bank, the Bank of England was really this sort of private entity in the beginning.

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And it sort of merged then with the king.

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And it was this hybrid.

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And until today, we have these discussions going on, you know, with the Federal Reserve in the US.

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Is it private? Is it public?

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But it's this weird hybrid thing.

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And this was already the case with the Bank of England.

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And so, yeah, for us, this was really the starting point because everything else followed from it.

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You know, the development of the bond market, the currency, the public currency.

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And it all is so instrumental in making this institutionalized money printing that we have possible.

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And so we called it and said it started with the establishment of the Bank of England.

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Yeah. And the second monetary sin is the abandonment of the gold standard, which set us clearly down the civilizational path towards fiat.

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and you put a Nietzschean lunge on it,

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cutting gold's golden anchor is akin to killing God.

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I'm so interested to hear you elaborate on that.

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Yeah, exactly.

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Well, exactly.

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I mean, the first thing was the establishing of the Bank of England

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and this really had to then go a long way in establishing,

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as we said, public bond markets

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where you could really borrow from the public

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and you don't have to go to all these private people again

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And then you could also have the central bank like secretly buying up the bonds and everything.

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So that was all going on. But obviously, there was always this gold anchor remaining, you know,

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and with every war in the US and then also during the Napoleonic Wars and stuff,

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countries sometimes went off the gold standard because it was really this sort of hinge, you know,

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or the shackles that was holding them back. And at some point they just went full fiat. And that's

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That's what we then called the economic murder of God, you know, in 1971.

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And Bitcoiners obviously know this all too well.

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But we then wanted to put a sort of philosophical framing around it as well, because I studied political philosophy in university, obviously read Nietzsche and was always interested in hearing what he had to say.

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And for me, he was really so visionary in the sense that he said, well, he was describing what was happening.

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A lot of people think Nietzsche is like an atheist and he was really against God.

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And I don't even know if he was, but I think he was just describing a system and human beings were sort of fostering that.

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And the same is with money, you know.

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And then there is this book where he writes about this dude with the lantern, you know, that's what we quote in the book.

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It is this guy who runs to the marketplace and he's like, we killed God.

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We killed God.

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Where will we find him?

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What would we do?

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And all the people laugh at that guy.

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And then he really rambles this amazing sort of text, you know, where he says, who are

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we that we wipe away the horizon with a sponge?

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We kill the sun, you know, no more anchor.

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We don't know.

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Are we going up?

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Are we going down?

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Are we going sideways?

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And when I read this, and he obviously, Nietzsche himself didn't, at least to my knowledge, make any connection to the money, but it all reads so clearly.

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And you could just apply it to the money, you know, because that's what happened when we really unhinged fiat from gold.

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You know, that was something we hear today quite often like, OK, is Bitcoin going up or is fiat going down?

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We don't know.

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You know, it's sort of the price signals are all distorted.

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And so I think even Nietzsche unknowingly called it and the same we quote Dostoevsky, another guy, you know, Russian writer who said like, if God is dead, everything is permitted, everything is allowed.

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And obviously it's the same.

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If gold is gone, then fiat is full fiat and everything is allowed.

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And then we see what springs from that.

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All the meme coins, all the shitcoin trading, all the companies that have no value but trade at immense, highly PEs and stuff.

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So yeah, there is a philosophical angle to this for sure.

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And that's what we tried to explore in this chapter four that you mentioned.

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no and it was uh it was very happy to see sort of that thread in chapter four and i was reading it

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because independently last week when the price went up to like 118 i tweeted out like this is

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great and the price goes up obviously it feels good as an individual bitcoiner because you're

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being validated something you've been screaming for the rooftops for for myself for the better

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more than a decade now at this point like it is being validated in real time but more importantly

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the price signal is a fact is a signal that other people are getting it to we're getting closer

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to the point where we're bringing back monetary sanity to the world and i did specifically use

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the phrase like we're going to anchor the global economy back to reality which i think many people

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don't realize and they they intuit it they understand it that that things are wrong and

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things are getting more expensive and uh even though we live in this incredibly advanced

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technologically advanced society with the internet we're streaming from different parts of the world

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right now we'll upload this and high definition later on will be distributed globally um and the

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cost to do so is very low but even so there are still these negative externalities that

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have emerged throughout society you see them in deaths of despair here in the united states how

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unhealthy people are there is an argument to be made that some people are getting stupider

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we've got birth rate decline in developed countries around the world and it just feels

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like there's this this odd feeling that we're untethered from from reality and all these

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negative things are extending from that but i do hope that bitcoin adoption increasing which is

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evident by the price going up um does send the signal like okay this is the money we should be

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organizing around and if enough people do that you can anchor back to reality bring opportunity cost

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back to the economy and force better capital allocation decisions that that lead to

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better outcomes for everybody.

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And I think you guys dive into this in chapter four too,

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but I think the best way to describe

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the sort of intuited knowledge that things are wrong,

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but you can't really put your finger on it,

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is the fact that we live in a world

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that is measuring things with Wittgenstein's ruler,

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which is something that you guys write about.

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Yes.

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It's hard to be anchored to reality

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when you have the measuring standard of things.

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The rule that you use to measure the inputs

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that you base your decisions off of is constantly changing,

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so that leads to bad decisions at the end of the day.

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Yeah, exactly.

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Because of this economic murder of God,

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because the foundation or the monetary truth or reality was sort of murdered,

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we then entered this age of monetary relativism.

294
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That's what we call it, you know, and that really follows from it.

295
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And it's exactly it's this Nassim Taleb quote, you know, the Wittgenstein's ruler.

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I mean, he elaborated on this on his book and it's sad to see him nowadays shitting on Bitcoin as well,

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but because he would be among the ones who should really get it.

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But he had this quote, you know, saying like, really, I have it here.

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unless you have confidence in the rules reliability,

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if you use a rule to measure a table,

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you may also be using the table to measure the ruler.

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The less you trust the rules reliability,

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the more information you are getting about the ruler and the less about the

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table itself, you know, and, and that's exactly the problem, you know?

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And, and so it's, it's really like if, if you, if you have sort of,

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if you wanted to measure the length of a meter stick by using a rubber band,

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that's the same thing, you know, because the rubber band is just too elastic.

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And so you don't know in the end, okay, what is it?

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How long is it really? What's the right measurement?

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And so there's all these sort of analogies that you can in the end draw.

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I mean, we had now this cover, you can see, you know,

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it's really like the dark age in lightning.

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we also had the idea of a lighthouse, you know, maybe with Bitcoin being really in a roaring sea,

314
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because that's the other thing. Like, yeah, if you are on a roaring boat tossing in the high seas

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and up and down, and then you don't really know, okay, what's up, what's down, you need some sort

316
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of lighthouse, which is Bitcoin, you know, absolutely scarce. So you can measure things

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against and uh yeah it's just amazing that this nowadays exists and people like you and others

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are building these uh i saw i don't remember the name you know but uh this uh add-on that you can

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now use to to measure everything against bitcoin and i think that's that's so important for people

320
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to really figure out what's happening here you know and now we have it we can actually do this

321
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which is amazing yeah opportunity cost opportunitycost.app if you want to add the add-on or

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extension to your browser it does it's crazy i've been in bitcoin for a while now and it wasn't until

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i built the extension and started using it like even myself having been in it is jarring when you

324
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price everything in bitcoin on the internet it really does induce that sense of okay i need to

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make sure that i'm really honing in on my expenses making sure that i'm saving in bitcoin as much as

326
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possible. Yeah. No. And I mean, maybe just to add to this, you know, in the end, this is really the

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problem. If monetary relativism, you don't know what's happening, then again, a lot of things will

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follow from this, you know, and we have this other sub chapter in chapter four, where we talk about

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the financialization of society, also not the first to do this, you know, but we just wanted to really

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right on show that there's so many things which are also criticized by many fiat people,

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people on the left, you know, like in terms of companies who have their main businesses nowadays,

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not their actual business anymore, but some sort of financialized department that they have. And

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00:29:38,095 --> 00:29:42,075
that's where they're getting all the money from, you know, it's so a lot of car companies are

334
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actually not selling cars, but they are doing a sort of car mortgages and loans, you know,

335
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and that's where they get the money from.

336
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Or Macy's is a store that when I was in the US,

337
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obviously I know it, the department store,

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as far as I know, most of their money is coming from another business,

339
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which is sort of then also tied to financial credit and everything,

340
00:30:04,395 --> 00:30:11,075
you know, and there's many other like airlines is the best example,

341
00:30:11,175 --> 00:30:14,255
you know, that you can point to, which is crazy.

342
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And so this is really the financialization.

343
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And then, yeah, a lot of people don't see this, you know, and they pinpoint something maybe superficial and don't see it for the real cause.

344
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And that's the problem that we wanted to address as well.

345
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Yeah and something as we diving down this thread of the conversation I think that one of the harder things being in Bitcoin is people ask like all right I think the one word sort of rebuttal that people have put out there that highlights this overarching question of when will we know we on a Bitcoin standard or more importantly when will

346
00:31:00,070 --> 00:31:03,490
If it's not now, when will Bitcoin be reliable as this ruler?

347
00:31:03,730 --> 00:31:07,230
Right. And the one question is like, I can't know with no merchants.

348
00:31:07,230 --> 00:31:09,710
I can't spend my Bitcoin anywhere, so therefore it can't be money.

349
00:31:09,710 --> 00:31:16,470
um but that's something i wonder like we're sitting at 122 000 now at what price point

350
00:31:16,470 --> 00:31:22,250
at what market cap at what level of merchant adoption will we know that that bitcoin is

351
00:31:22,250 --> 00:31:29,790
a a ruler that can be dependable um to make long-term economic decisions about i think for

352
00:31:29,790 --> 00:31:35,430
long-term savings it's obviously dependable maybe it already is a better ruler than the fiat system

353
00:31:35,430 --> 00:31:46,790
But during this adoption and monetization phase, how do you know when you've crossed the Rubicon of Bitcoin being the standard ruler that you can be comfortable with?

354
00:31:47,050 --> 00:31:47,990
Does that make sense?

355
00:31:48,790 --> 00:31:49,330
Yeah, I know.

356
00:31:49,510 --> 00:31:55,670
I mean, it's probably a hard question to really answer and to say again.

357
00:31:55,790 --> 00:32:02,030
And it goes back to the point that I was making earlier in terms of individual-wise and then society-wise.

358
00:32:02,030 --> 00:32:15,730
You know, like I don't want to judge for society and it's really hard to really also extrapolate and really pinpoint and say, OK, at this point in time, maybe all of society will sort of use this ruler and they will have adopted it.

359
00:32:15,730 --> 00:32:20,250
And I probably I hope that this will happen, but I'm just not really sure.

360
00:32:20,610 --> 00:32:27,550
And I don't want to sort of miss the forest for the trees, you know, like all speculate about when it's going to happen in society.

361
00:32:28,290 --> 00:32:31,470
But but I should be. And that's another quote that we have in the book.

362
00:32:31,470 --> 00:32:40,330
You know, like Bitcoin, be the change in big, like all the Bitcoiners should be the change they wish to happen in the world.

363
00:32:40,490 --> 00:32:46,230
They should something like borrowing from Muhammad Gandhi, you know, but I mean, that's what I see for myself.

364
00:32:46,390 --> 00:32:57,930
And I would say personally, it already in a lot of ways is my standard that I go by, you know, in terms of like the easy thing that we heard with consumption.

365
00:32:57,930 --> 00:33:24,630
Am I going now? Will I do that type of consumption? Will I consume that or will I forgo the consumption because I know I could put it somewhere else? And then also, you know, in terms of like a bigger stuff like a house, should I now go for this? Or doesn't it make sense to maybe wait another year and have a longer time horizon there?

366
00:33:24,630 --> 00:33:26,870
all these type of things.

367
00:33:27,230 --> 00:33:33,270
I mean, that's where Bitcoin for me is already very, very valuable and probably my standard.

368
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And the more people that adopt this, I mean, at some point we might reach the societal point

369
00:33:40,730 --> 00:33:43,550
where it's actually there, but it's probably really hard.

370
00:33:44,170 --> 00:33:49,110
We will only know in hindsight, you know, probably some historian will only know in

371
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hindsight and can then tell, okay, this was the time everything switched.

372
00:33:52,490 --> 00:33:59,610
we are that sort of in the midst of it all we probably don't have the ability to really zoom

373
00:33:59,610 --> 00:34:05,890
out and say okay now i think it's switched and and and it's just a gradual process you know market

374
00:34:05,890 --> 00:34:12,870
is really a process it's not like this zero or one thing it's probably just yeah and gradually

375
00:34:12,870 --> 00:34:20,310
still yeah and not not that sudden but i mean sometimes we have to sudden faces yeah like now

376
00:34:20,310 --> 00:34:27,350
yeah yeah no it's somewhere like great wars throughout time you don't really know that

377
00:34:27,350 --> 00:34:31,870
they've started once they have started it's only in retrospect where a historian goes back and

378
00:34:31,870 --> 00:34:38,370
says well actually world war ii started here um world war one started here with the with the

379
00:34:38,370 --> 00:34:42,930
assassination of france ferdinand i don't think at that time i was like world war one is on it was

380
00:34:42,930 --> 00:34:47,250
like oh france ferdinand got assassinated things are getting heavy and then things escalated and

381
00:34:47,250 --> 00:34:52,110
in retrospect somebody comes in and is like yep that's when world one one started yeah

382
00:34:52,110 --> 00:34:58,570
no probably that's that's a good analogy as well yeah yeah and so

383
00:34:58,570 --> 00:35:08,830
what what other like if you were to sort of think of the book that you've written and

384
00:35:08,830 --> 00:35:14,770
think of like the one overarching message you're trying to get through to the audience

385
00:35:14,770 --> 00:35:16,650
to the readers reading it, what would that be?

386
00:35:18,190 --> 00:35:19,910
Well, yeah, that's the thing.

387
00:35:20,090 --> 00:35:22,930
That's what we were discussing internally as well.

388
00:35:23,050 --> 00:35:24,730
Like, what is the overarching message?

389
00:35:25,090 --> 00:35:28,910
I mean, in the end, it's probably several messages, you know,

390
00:35:29,030 --> 00:35:32,610
because we wanted to also write a book that's accessible

391
00:35:32,610 --> 00:35:38,510
to different groups of people, to some hardcore Bitcoiners.

392
00:35:38,510 --> 00:35:41,330
And that's why we have some of the historic chapters in it as well,

393
00:35:41,410 --> 00:35:43,350
you know, where it really goes deep, as I explained,

394
00:35:43,350 --> 00:35:45,490
with the Bank of England and everything.

395
00:35:45,770 --> 00:35:48,010
And so that's really the Bitcoin nerdy stuff.

396
00:35:48,650 --> 00:35:50,430
And then we have chapter four,

397
00:35:50,610 --> 00:35:53,610
where it's probably more to the average Bitcoiner

398
00:35:53,610 --> 00:35:55,730
or appealing to it, as we said,

399
00:35:55,830 --> 00:35:58,410
describing really what's happening here

400
00:35:58,410 --> 00:36:00,510
and then where you can also really relate

401
00:36:00,510 --> 00:36:02,730
and maybe not only the average Bitcoiner,

402
00:36:02,810 --> 00:36:04,190
but also then the average person,

403
00:36:04,350 --> 00:36:07,630
the millennial, the Gen Z, these people.

404
00:36:07,850 --> 00:36:12,130
I mean, we go into all these sorts of problems nowadays

405
00:36:12,130 --> 00:36:17,950
that you have that you struggle with, you know, if you are a younger person or even a millennium

406
00:36:17,950 --> 00:36:24,090
like me, you know, looking for housing and do we even get a house? You know, isn't it too expensive?

407
00:36:24,930 --> 00:36:30,370
But then at the same time, we also talk about, okay, is it all that bad? You know, because that's

408
00:36:30,370 --> 00:36:36,310
what I'm hearing from my boomer friends, my dad, who's sometimes like, okay, you can't complain,

409
00:36:36,310 --> 00:36:42,810
You just traveled the world, met up with this Mexican billionaire, something I could have never done.

410
00:36:42,990 --> 00:36:45,810
And you tell me you live in a world which is worse than mine.

411
00:36:46,210 --> 00:36:48,370
And I'm like, OK, that's actually true.

412
00:36:48,470 --> 00:36:49,470
I see what you mean.

413
00:36:49,570 --> 00:36:51,950
It's probably not that black and white.

414
00:36:52,330 --> 00:36:55,010
And so that's what we try to address as well.

415
00:36:55,750 --> 00:37:01,970
But in the end, I think the story really comes down again to this individual thing.

416
00:37:01,970 --> 00:37:04,010
You can understand Bitcoin.

417
00:37:04,010 --> 00:37:07,910
You have to understand it on a foundational level.

418
00:37:08,590 --> 00:37:18,350
Also, what it does to society, really what it does to everything, your surroundings around you, that you maybe get a better understanding of, okay, it's maybe not me.

419
00:37:18,490 --> 00:37:19,190
It's not others.

420
00:37:19,390 --> 00:37:21,010
It's really the game, which is sort of rigged.

421
00:37:21,750 --> 00:37:24,830
Again, this quote, you don't hate the players, hate the game.

422
00:37:25,370 --> 00:37:27,910
And from there, but then like, okay, what can I do?

423
00:37:28,210 --> 00:37:29,790
Okay, I can save in Bitcoin.

424
00:37:29,790 --> 00:37:35,490
And I can at least partly opt out and live a better future.

425
00:37:35,730 --> 00:37:38,530
And that's what we ended on with the book as well.

426
00:37:38,610 --> 00:37:43,670
It's not one of these books, which is then everything is going to burn, you know, fiat, fiat go to hell.

427
00:37:44,210 --> 00:37:53,570
But it's more like ending on an optimistic note that we're saying maybe, yeah, Bitcoin is here to make the world a better place, even make fiat great again.

428
00:37:53,570 --> 00:37:57,850
Maybe that's how polemically how we say it in the book.

429
00:37:57,850 --> 00:38:13,310
And so, yeah, we also dive into what's happening, you know, on the banking front with a lot of institutions getting online, helping to build Bitcoin into their products and offerings and stuff.

430
00:38:13,530 --> 00:38:16,890
And so, yeah, that's what we wanted to address as well.

431
00:38:16,890 --> 00:38:23,010
So, yeah, and it's probably also in Ricardo's interest because he owns a bank himself.

432
00:38:23,270 --> 00:38:24,230
He has the companies.

433
00:38:24,230 --> 00:38:30,430
I mean, even though he is a true Bitcoiner, he knows that there's another world which is also still spinning.

434
00:38:31,750 --> 00:38:35,350
And I think two things there.

435
00:38:35,410 --> 00:38:36,030
Don't hate the player.

436
00:38:36,750 --> 00:38:37,450
Hate the game.

437
00:38:37,590 --> 00:38:38,850
It's very important to recognize.

438
00:38:39,010 --> 00:38:43,930
Opt out of that game and into the game of Bitcoin where the rules are transparent.

439
00:38:44,310 --> 00:38:49,150
You can audit them yourselves and have a high degree of certainty that they're not going to be changed.

440
00:38:49,150 --> 00:38:55,550
And so you can sort of base decisions off of the rules that set forth in that game pretty confidently.

441
00:38:57,030 --> 00:39:04,570
And then the other thing is this sort of integration of Bitcoin into the institution.

442
00:39:04,850 --> 00:39:13,070
I'm happy you brought that up because I wanted to touch on that when you consider what's happening today and what's happened, I would say, over the last year and a half since the ETFs launched.

443
00:39:13,070 --> 00:39:18,350
is you've had this different sort of archetype of new Bitcoiner come to market,

444
00:39:18,450 --> 00:39:19,690
which isn't an individual.

445
00:39:19,970 --> 00:39:25,650
It's typically a corporation or an institution that is made up of individuals

446
00:39:25,650 --> 00:39:31,650
but operates on a completely different order of magnitude in terms of capital flows

447
00:39:31,650 --> 00:39:35,670
and just access to capital that can flow into Bitcoin.

448
00:39:35,970 --> 00:39:39,250
So on that note with what's happening right now,

449
00:39:39,250 --> 00:39:48,250
Obviously, here in the United States, Trump administration seems very keen on fostering the Bitcoin industry in the United States.

450
00:39:48,890 --> 00:39:51,230
Executive order for a strategic Bitcoin reserve.

451
00:39:51,830 --> 00:39:57,870
Nothing's been passed and enshrined in Talal yet, but they're saying they want to accumulate as much Bitcoin as possible.

452
00:39:58,510 --> 00:40:08,090
Obviously, the trend of Bitcoin treasury companies, people following in Michael Saylor and Strategies Wake beginning to accelerate.

453
00:40:08,090 --> 00:40:12,310
We're seeing them pop up, not only here in the United States, but around the world.

454
00:40:12,550 --> 00:40:27,870
You've got other nation states adopting Bitcoin, most famously El Salvador, where you have the president, President Bukele, sharing screenshots of the gains the country's made in Bitcoin since they started accumulating it.

455
00:40:27,930 --> 00:40:34,710
Obviously, we've got Bhutan up in the Himalayas, which has been mining Bitcoin and using it to their advantage.

456
00:40:34,710 --> 00:40:43,330
different archetype of buyer institutions not necessarily individuals but institutions are made

457
00:40:43,330 --> 00:40:49,670
up of individuals at the end of the day like what do you think about this sort of archetype

458
00:40:49,670 --> 00:40:55,770
of new buyer and new demand source for bitcoin as we head into the second half of 2025.

459
00:40:56,830 --> 00:41:02,450
Yeah yeah I mean it's very interesting to see and for me and for us in the book and we dive

460
00:41:02,450 --> 00:41:08,010
into this as well. It was sort of inevitable, you know, because I feel like some people structure

461
00:41:08,010 --> 00:41:15,190
like the Bitcoin's journey into these several sort of stages. You know, you had like the early

462
00:41:15,190 --> 00:41:20,570
adopter stage or like even before you had all the nerds and techies, then the early adopters,

463
00:41:20,570 --> 00:41:25,030
then the finance people. It was all the individuals, the retailers that were first,

464
00:41:25,170 --> 00:41:29,850
you know, which is really neat about Bitcoin. It's probably the only industry where this really can

465
00:41:29,850 --> 00:41:34,890
happen. It's not the institutions first. But then at some point, obviously, and I think we reach now

466
00:41:34,890 --> 00:41:41,490
this threshold where with 100K, it's really people who have been in Bitcoin for maybe five,

467
00:41:41,610 --> 00:41:48,790
seven, six years, they made probably astonishingly amounts of wealth as well, even sometimes life

468
00:41:48,790 --> 00:41:55,930
changing stuff. And they have huddled through all these troughs and the ups and downs. And I mean,

469
00:41:55,930 --> 00:42:02,990
they're now feeling ever more compelled to act out their beliefs, you know, and pushing for the adoption of Bitcoin.

470
00:42:03,570 --> 00:42:13,770
And now with strategy, having shown this playbook, I think this is what we're seeing across different spectrums of institutions, you know,

471
00:42:14,150 --> 00:42:22,230
like really people, the Bitcoiners themselves, who maybe have even come into positions where they can sort of move the needle inside companies.

472
00:42:22,230 --> 00:42:25,350
You know, I myself are sort of a person.

473
00:42:25,530 --> 00:42:27,170
I mean, I'm not a banker myself.

474
00:42:27,390 --> 00:42:29,830
I never I'd never studied finance at university.

475
00:42:30,110 --> 00:42:31,230
And here I am.

476
00:42:31,350 --> 00:42:38,110
I find myself among investment managers in one of the Switzerland's top banks, you know, as a big coiner.

477
00:42:38,330 --> 00:42:46,870
And I can now also try to drive policy, even though within a bank, it's still sort of hard, you know, because there are all these regulations.

478
00:42:46,870 --> 00:42:51,090
But but yeah, there's there's other examples that I can point to.

479
00:42:51,090 --> 00:42:55,910
For me, Dylan Leclerc is the best example.

480
00:42:56,290 --> 00:43:04,930
He's this guy, really young, coming from the trenches, so to say, and is now moving the needle with MetaPlanet.

481
00:43:05,290 --> 00:43:07,190
And I think that's what we're seeing.

482
00:43:07,330 --> 00:43:08,530
We will keep on seeing this.

483
00:43:08,610 --> 00:43:12,170
That's why I believe there's so much more to come on that front.

484
00:43:12,170 --> 00:43:18,470
because just a lot of people, a lot of Bitcoiners who want to now use this leverage that they have.

485
00:43:18,870 --> 00:43:23,930
And then the amplifier are the institutions which can do everything on a greater scale.

486
00:43:24,310 --> 00:43:29,590
And that will amplify everything with all the bad, the pros and cons, I guess.

487
00:43:29,590 --> 00:43:35,090
I mean, when it comes to these Bitcoin treasury companies, I'm not sure.

488
00:43:35,190 --> 00:43:36,590
This is probably also somewhat overhyped.

489
00:43:37,330 --> 00:43:39,990
And at some point, some will die again.

490
00:43:39,990 --> 00:43:56,130
And I mean, I just have anecdotal evidence again, but I mean, I'm now also being asked to be an advisor to some companies that want to start in Switzerland, you know, and I'm just a small big corner, maybe here in Switzerland, some sort of expert, but I have a small following.

491
00:43:56,130 --> 00:44:09,130
But the case or the fact that they're now asking me kind of shows me, okay, I'm not proficient enough, but they just want to maybe have somebody who can slap a pretty face on.

492
00:44:09,130 --> 00:44:34,930
Yeah, exactly. And source of attention and stuff. And so this sort of is anecdotal evidence for me that we might be in the stage where these things are getting overhyped. I also believe that maybe in Switzerland, a Bitcoin treasury company might not make that much sense after all, because when it comes to buying Bitcoin, we're world renowned to be among the best places, you know, with the banks where you can already enter.

493
00:44:34,930 --> 00:44:37,390
We have like all the ETPs for very early on.

494
00:44:37,790 --> 00:44:39,290
We have no capital gains on Bitcoin.

495
00:44:39,610 --> 00:44:43,630
So no real moat that you will have as a Bitcoin treasury company.

496
00:44:44,570 --> 00:44:47,930
And I believe it's probably similar with other countries.

497
00:44:48,070 --> 00:44:48,930
And with some, it's not.

498
00:44:49,090 --> 00:44:50,390
In the US, you have strategy.

499
00:44:50,590 --> 00:44:51,850
They really have like their edge.

500
00:44:52,010 --> 00:44:55,390
Or it seems like in Japan, you have MetaPlanet.

501
00:44:55,490 --> 00:44:59,530
They have some sort of regulatory arbitrage that's going on there.

502
00:44:59,710 --> 00:45:02,690
So in some countries, it might work, but not in all.

503
00:45:02,690 --> 00:45:06,450
And so, yeah, I mean, it's always the same.

504
00:45:06,710 --> 00:45:08,550
It's pros and cons to everything.

505
00:45:08,930 --> 00:45:14,550
But I think it's just not going away because of the force that we describe in the book,

506
00:45:14,590 --> 00:45:20,250
you know, with all these hotlers that really want to be the change that they want to see

507
00:45:20,250 --> 00:45:21,430
in the world, you know?

508
00:45:22,370 --> 00:45:25,430
Yeah, it's funny.

509
00:45:25,610 --> 00:45:28,650
It's the chat behind the scenes in the industry right now.

510
00:45:28,650 --> 00:45:31,950
I was like, particularly for podcasters,

511
00:45:32,130 --> 00:45:35,170
is like, when are you going to join the next treasury company?

512
00:45:35,390 --> 00:45:37,830
Yeah, I was waiting for you to join soon, you know?

513
00:45:38,030 --> 00:45:40,290
To all the listeners out there, if I ever join one,

514
00:45:41,290 --> 00:45:42,850
it's a sign at the top.

515
00:45:43,090 --> 00:45:45,570
My timing is not great.

516
00:45:45,770 --> 00:45:48,810
And I'm not fit for purpose for that type of role.

517
00:45:49,790 --> 00:45:50,930
I like to talk about Bitcoin.

518
00:45:50,930 --> 00:45:55,250
It doesn't mean I'm an expert at capital market arbitrage.

519
00:45:55,250 --> 00:46:01,490
yeah i don't want to piss on anybody particular but even in the us you might know who i'm

520
00:46:01,490 --> 00:46:06,510
referencing but there are other people you know big broadcasters who who now are wearing a hat

521
00:46:06,510 --> 00:46:18,965
you know and there like some company name on it and so i like okay this this looks a little toppy to me as well But we see Maybe not Maybe this time is different after all

522
00:46:20,025 --> 00:46:20,625
We shall see.

523
00:46:21,545 --> 00:46:25,865
I'll be happy just to do what I'm doing here at TFTC in 1031.

524
00:46:26,065 --> 00:46:26,685
That's enough for me.

525
00:46:26,685 --> 00:46:30,105
I don't need to join a treasury company.

526
00:46:30,425 --> 00:46:33,545
But it is insane.

527
00:46:33,985 --> 00:46:36,285
Another thing I was thinking about as we were talking about,

528
00:46:36,285 --> 00:46:43,605
Like institutions are made up of individuals and as Bitcoin monetizes, the price goes up and the individuals in Bitcoin get wealthier.

529
00:46:43,605 --> 00:46:52,425
They can influence policy. They can deploy capital to build companies and goods that they want to see in the world.

530
00:46:52,565 --> 00:46:55,165
They can get politically active, whatever it may be.

531
00:46:55,405 --> 00:47:03,625
And this reminds me of a presentation that Turdemister gave in Austin early last year during a Bitcoin urbanism meetup.

532
00:47:03,625 --> 00:47:08,425
it might have been two years ago now at this point but it is a pretty wild stat like as bitcoin

533
00:47:08,425 --> 00:47:17,285
does a 10x every four to six years whatever whatever it averages out to be like the amount

534
00:47:17,285 --> 00:47:28,285
uh the the steps individual bitcoiners make into the top one top 0.1 top 0.01 percent of the global

535
00:47:28,285 --> 00:47:35,845
wealth ladder increases. And I think what he said during that presentation was, I don't think we

536
00:47:35,845 --> 00:47:41,105
realize how quickly we're going to get to a point where like the 0.01% is made up of like 50%

537
00:47:41,105 --> 00:47:48,945
Bitcoiners. And then you can really begin to use that capital that you've saved and accumulated to

538
00:47:48,945 --> 00:47:57,185
change the world for the better, which is incredibly optimistic in a good way,

539
00:47:57,185 --> 00:48:13,145
Not overly optimistic, not naive optimistic, but it's an optimistic view of the future where you found this thing, you found it early, you put in the hard work to understand it, make money to buy it, to accumulate it and hold it for a long period of time.

540
00:48:13,145 --> 00:48:27,925
And then maybe that is the path to fixing all these things is enough Bitcoiners who are philosophically and ideologically aligned getting to a point of wealth where they begin to deploy that capital and fix the systemic issues in the system.

541
00:48:28,745 --> 00:48:29,965
No, that's a great point.

542
00:48:30,065 --> 00:48:34,525
And I mean, I know what talk I think you're referencing by tour.

543
00:48:34,645 --> 00:48:36,445
I think it was put online as well.

544
00:48:36,485 --> 00:48:42,225
And I watched it too, because I think it's a journey that many Bitcoiners will go through as well.

545
00:48:42,225 --> 00:48:49,005
I mean, I'm going through this myself in terms of I'm a true libertarian at heart.

546
00:48:49,465 --> 00:48:56,905
And so when I first discovered Bitcoin, I was like, okay, this is really something that helps me not to care about politics anymore.

547
00:48:57,185 --> 00:48:58,605
And to some extent it does.

548
00:48:58,685 --> 00:49:00,045
It gives me some reassurance.

549
00:49:00,505 --> 00:49:10,745
Also, when it comes to the portfolio that you have, like, okay, maybe what all the clowns are doing out here, maybe it might not affect me that harsh.

550
00:49:10,745 --> 00:49:12,765
because I have my secret stash here

551
00:49:12,765 --> 00:49:15,925
and at least this is giving me some reassurance.

552
00:49:16,225 --> 00:49:17,365
But then at the same time,

553
00:49:17,405 --> 00:49:20,145
I feel like it can also be a little naive.

554
00:49:20,565 --> 00:49:24,105
I just saw this post a couple of days back

555
00:49:24,105 --> 00:49:25,105
by Max Keiser.

556
00:49:25,585 --> 00:49:29,945
And again, he wrote a praise for our book as well

557
00:49:29,945 --> 00:49:31,765
because he's good friends with Ricardo

558
00:49:31,765 --> 00:49:34,145
and so don't want to shit on him at all.

559
00:49:34,265 --> 00:49:36,725
But he had this meme sort of,

560
00:49:36,825 --> 00:49:39,805
without Bitcoin, I'd be forced to care about politics.

561
00:49:39,805 --> 00:49:44,905
You know, that's what we what he posted to some other thing that he was referencing.

562
00:49:44,905 --> 00:49:51,365
And I was like, yeah, maybe if you are that well off like him and you can escape to El Salvador, that's true.

563
00:49:51,485 --> 00:49:59,665
But maybe it's not true for everyone, not even for every Bitcoiner, you know, because at the margin, some might not be as well off as him.

564
00:49:59,825 --> 00:50:04,545
And so maybe it and that's where I'm then questioning myself again.

565
00:50:04,545 --> 00:50:23,805
So maybe it's not that good. It wouldn't be that good if all the Bitcoin is just really retreat and don't care about. And luckily, I think that's also not what we're seeing, because as you said, in the US, you have, I think, the BTC Policy Institute, all these institutions that are picking up as well.

566
00:50:23,805 --> 00:50:32,145
I see it here in Switzerland as well, all the institutions and entities that are being founded to really influence politics in some way.

567
00:50:32,345 --> 00:50:41,965
And then you also have the resources by now, you know, because usually like all these political groups, all the libertarians, they didn't have that much money.

568
00:50:42,065 --> 00:50:47,225
But nowadays they have it and money sort of moves some things at the margin as well.

569
00:50:47,225 --> 00:50:50,305
And so I think that's really interesting.

570
00:50:50,305 --> 00:50:54,345
I'm looking forward to see what influence Bitcoiners will have.

571
00:50:55,825 --> 00:50:59,705
I'm just reading this book, Satoshi's paper by Natalie Smolenski.

572
00:51:00,305 --> 00:51:05,965
And in the beginning, she references all these acts in the US that you guys put through,

573
00:51:06,905 --> 00:51:13,505
like sometimes even behind closed doors, sort of the Patriot Act, the anti-drug money act,

574
00:51:13,685 --> 00:51:14,645
whatever act there is.

575
00:51:14,725 --> 00:51:15,325
I don't even know.

576
00:51:15,405 --> 00:51:16,545
You might know it better than me.

577
00:51:16,725 --> 00:51:17,625
The Bank Secrecy Act.

578
00:51:17,625 --> 00:51:18,965
Yeah, the Bank Secrecy Act.

579
00:51:18,965 --> 00:51:23,845
all these acts, you know, and she's also in the book, they're like, okay, maybe Bitcoin will have

580
00:51:23,845 --> 00:51:29,365
the financial power, the interest, the stamina, everything else to reverse these things and go

581
00:51:29,365 --> 00:51:33,905
up against this. And so that will be very interesting to see. And that would, as you said,

582
00:51:34,285 --> 00:51:39,525
your point, make the world a better place, at least in our eyes, probably. And so it's going

583
00:51:39,525 --> 00:51:44,485
to be interesting how that pans out as well. Yeah, you may not care about political power,

584
00:51:44,485 --> 00:51:53,565
but political power cares about you it's uh for somebody who's um definitely slanted more towards

585
00:51:53,565 --> 00:52:00,465
libertarianism that uh it's it's a hard thing to come to grips with but i think you have to realize

586
00:52:00,465 --> 00:52:05,205
you're in a game and you're an actor in that game and you may not like the rules and want to

587
00:52:05,205 --> 00:52:10,225
opt out but if you if you're looking for the optimal outcome you probably have to play ball

588
00:52:10,225 --> 00:52:11,145
to a certain extent.

589
00:52:11,345 --> 00:52:14,165
And I think Bitcoiners, particularly here in the United States,

590
00:52:14,265 --> 00:52:17,825
have really woken up to that in the last three years and began to.

591
00:52:18,725 --> 00:52:22,665
And I think it's also very important because one other thing that really,

592
00:52:23,145 --> 00:52:26,685
that I learned when I was researching and then writing the book,

593
00:52:26,685 --> 00:52:32,525
I went full deep down the rabbit hole towards MMT, you know,

594
00:52:32,645 --> 00:52:34,185
like modern monetary theory.

595
00:52:34,745 --> 00:52:36,905
I mean, I always knew sort of what it is.

596
00:52:36,905 --> 00:52:43,685
I studied Georg Friedrich von Knopp, which is like sort of the founder back in the 19th century and stuff.

597
00:52:43,845 --> 00:52:49,865
But researching the book, I did this deep dive on MMT and I found it so fascinating.

598
00:52:49,865 --> 00:52:58,405
Even though I'm not sort of fond of their conclusions, I feel like these guys, they're spot on when it comes to describing today's system.

599
00:52:58,405 --> 00:53:10,885
I think you had Mel Madison on just a few weeks ago, and I had an episode on my podcast with him as well, where we were discussing that Trump is really sort of following these MMT policies.

600
00:53:11,225 --> 00:53:16,965
And so I found this so interesting because they have these MMT guys.

601
00:53:17,105 --> 00:53:19,405
I don't know. Have you seen the movie Finding the Money?

602
00:53:20,125 --> 00:53:21,425
You know, this documentary?

603
00:53:22,425 --> 00:53:23,765
I can really...

604
00:53:23,765 --> 00:53:37,605
Yeah, I can recommend it because as a Bitcoiner, I could sort of relate, you know, because they have been jumping through similar hoops in terms of like they're being called monetary fringe people and cringe, you know.

605
00:53:37,605 --> 00:53:39,925
And so everybody laughs at them.

606
00:53:39,925 --> 00:53:53,945
But then when they really go talk to people and they sort of not orange pill, but MMT pill them, I mean, they sometimes really manage this, you know, because they're like, OK, we're in fiat now.

607
00:53:54,125 --> 00:53:59,205
And then they make all these sort of promises as well, you know, because with MMT, you can finance everything.

608
00:53:59,205 --> 00:54:03,045
no sort of lack to the money that you can create and stuff.

609
00:54:03,245 --> 00:54:08,985
And so, as I said, even though I don't really can subscribe to this theory in terms of like

610
00:54:08,985 --> 00:54:14,145
morals and philosophy wise, I feel like this is just what's going to happen in the fiat

611
00:54:14,145 --> 00:54:14,545
system.

612
00:54:14,685 --> 00:54:17,605
You know, these people are going to be ever stronger voices.

613
00:54:18,645 --> 00:54:25,705
And maybe if at some point Democrats are coming back to power, I mean, they will be all over

614
00:54:25,705 --> 00:54:26,865
their ears.

615
00:54:26,865 --> 00:54:37,045
And so it's all the more important that we have Bitcoin because in an MMT world, I mean, control and everything is just going to be a lot harsher.

616
00:54:37,405 --> 00:54:47,725
And that's why it's even more important that we have the Bitcoiners who we take to the stage as well and then sort of try to refute them as well, you know, and have some counter arguments ready.

617
00:54:47,725 --> 00:54:51,545
because I think this theory is gaining a lot of momentum

618
00:54:51,545 --> 00:54:56,925
and it's just because they're promising la-la land to everyone

619
00:54:56,925 --> 00:54:59,525
and that's what people want to hear in the end.

620
00:54:59,525 --> 00:55:03,545
And the rules of the game are such that they can

621
00:55:03,545 --> 00:55:07,965
it's in the realm of possibility in that rule set

622
00:55:07,965 --> 00:55:11,665
so they can go effectuate what they want to happen

623
00:55:11,665 --> 00:55:15,605
which is unnerving

624
00:55:15,605 --> 00:55:21,525
because like you said it i don't agree with it morally philosophically and it's a complete

625
00:55:21,525 --> 00:55:28,705
it's basically like an admission we become completely untethered from reality and so

626
00:55:28,705 --> 00:55:34,605
once you do that here's what's possible you can the debt doesn't matter you can finance everything

627
00:55:34,605 --> 00:55:40,845
exactly printed dollars then you just tax them out of the system yeah but but the thing to me is

628
00:55:40,845 --> 00:55:57,645
And like a lot of people, like we call them the useful idiots, you know, I mean, they might just go happily go along with this, you know, because for me, the pandemic or plandemic or whatever you want to call it was like a perfect example for this, you know, like a lot of people just went along with it.

629
00:55:57,645 --> 00:56:12,645
They didn't care. And so I think the same might be happening there, especially if these economists and politicians who are influenced by these economists are then promising them the entire world, you know, by, okay, we can get rid of climate change.

630
00:56:12,645 --> 00:56:27,125
We can get rid of this. We can finance everyone just because the money doesn't matter. We just sort of have to mobilize the real resources because that's what they can't print, you know, not yet, you know, at least that's not possible.

631
00:56:27,125 --> 00:56:31,345
And so, I mean, I think people will just go along with it.

632
00:56:31,645 --> 00:56:41,965
And then, yeah, the system itself will need more levers to pull to sort of steer people into the right direction in terms of providing the real resources.

633
00:56:42,185 --> 00:56:46,205
That's why the control screws will probably be tightened, you know.

634
00:56:46,285 --> 00:56:53,905
But I could imagine people go along with it because like both of the systems sort of have these useful idiots, you know.

635
00:56:53,905 --> 00:56:57,185
like the traditional one has these with the people going along.

636
00:56:57,505 --> 00:57:02,345
The Bitcoin system also has these useful idiots like all the crypto people who buy

637
00:57:03,105 --> 00:57:05,985
into crypto and then end up being Bitcoiners.

638
00:57:05,985 --> 00:57:09,385
So they start out as useful idiots.

639
00:57:09,385 --> 00:57:13,865
And then this also helps our cause in the end because more money is

640
00:57:14,025 --> 00:57:15,905
like initially coming into the space.

641
00:57:15,905 --> 00:57:21,465
And so, yeah, I think this will probably be the defining battle going forward

642
00:57:21,465 --> 00:57:28,745
for me you know mmt versus bitcoin uh like philosophically again but i just think uh the

643
00:57:28,745 --> 00:57:34,025
more i studied it now i i wouldn't just uh laugh it off anymore because i think it's it's a serious

644
00:57:34,585 --> 00:57:39,945
serious development and will only uh catch more and more fire at least that's that's what i think

645
00:57:39,945 --> 00:57:47,225
yeah yeah i think you only have to look at the front runner for mayor of new york city um to

646
00:57:47,225 --> 00:57:48,965
to see that it is certainly gaining

647
00:57:48,965 --> 00:57:50,705
in terms of influence.

648
00:57:50,985 --> 00:57:52,885
He's in this documentary as well.

649
00:57:53,265 --> 00:57:53,965
And yeah.

650
00:57:56,565 --> 00:57:57,185
Is he?

651
00:57:57,285 --> 00:57:58,005
I have to watch this.

652
00:57:58,005 --> 00:57:58,785
I think so.

653
00:57:58,865 --> 00:58:01,305
Yeah, I think he is in there as well.

654
00:58:01,345 --> 00:58:02,685
Or at least one of his advisors.

655
00:58:02,845 --> 00:58:04,865
Yeah, so it is interesting.

656
00:58:05,785 --> 00:58:06,525
It is.

657
00:58:07,005 --> 00:58:08,945
Another thing I wanted to come back on

658
00:58:08,945 --> 00:58:10,905
because you brought it up,

659
00:58:11,005 --> 00:58:14,225
Max down in El Salvador

660
00:58:14,225 --> 00:58:15,745
and this idea of flag theory,

661
00:58:15,745 --> 00:58:28,705
Like just when shit hits the fan, just leave where you where you grew up and go find you'll find like mine a Bitcoin or somewhere on an island around the world.

662
00:58:28,805 --> 00:58:31,745
Build your citadel like that is always internally.

663
00:58:32,525 --> 00:58:41,025
I've paid credence to it in the past, but as I've gotten older and had children, I find it like just like untenable for me personally.

664
00:58:41,025 --> 00:58:43,385
somebody who has a pretty strong

665
00:58:43,385 --> 00:58:45,785
nuclear and extended family

666
00:58:45,785 --> 00:58:47,385
I think the idea of like

667
00:58:47,385 --> 00:58:49,125
abandoning where I grew up from

668
00:58:49,125 --> 00:58:51,565
like I was telling you before we hit record I just moved back

669
00:58:51,565 --> 00:58:53,825
to my hometown of Philadelphia

670
00:58:53,825 --> 00:58:55,645
partly for this reason

671
00:58:55,645 --> 00:58:57,425
because my family's there my extended family

672
00:58:57,425 --> 00:58:59,605
my friends that I'm still

673
00:58:59,605 --> 00:59:01,265
really close with who I grew up with

674
00:59:01,265 --> 00:59:03,485
are all there and this idea of just

675
00:59:03,485 --> 00:59:05,065
abandoning your roots

676
00:59:05,065 --> 00:59:07,445
to go find like minded people

677
00:59:07,445 --> 00:59:09,465
elsewhere just has never

678
00:59:09,465 --> 00:59:18,385
sat well with me and uh maybe it's naive maybe it's idealistic but i do think there is credence

679
00:59:18,385 --> 00:59:24,725
in being that individual who gets bitcoin and understands or likes to think that he understands

680
00:59:24,725 --> 00:59:32,445
a lot of the uh what's causing the problems and the strife and how the game is messed up

681
00:59:32,445 --> 00:59:38,545
in the world um to sort of put the flag down and say no i'm gonna make sure that

682
00:59:38,545 --> 00:59:45,265
where i grew up my home um does not just get washed in the wave of fiat debasement and fiat

683
00:59:45,265 --> 00:59:53,485
politics and um put up a fight to try to slowly but surely um convince people that hey there's

684
00:59:53,485 --> 00:59:59,865
another way to do things and bitcoin's part of that way yeah no that's that's greatly said i mean

685
00:59:59,865 --> 01:00:05,485
i was going through the same thing you know as i said the book came about because we were traveling

686
01:00:05,485 --> 01:00:12,365
as sovereign individuals slash digital nomads, you know, and we were really sort of unregistered

687
01:00:12,365 --> 01:00:17,905
from Switzerland. So like, no strings attached, you know, we wanted to really live this life.

688
01:00:17,905 --> 01:00:24,745
But after two years, we figured, yeah, it's tough. As you said, I'm also well rooted with family,

689
01:00:24,925 --> 01:00:31,185
extended friends. And so I'm like, wow, if you can really pull this off, I mean, I'm impressed.

690
01:00:31,185 --> 01:00:36,325
I have now some digital nomad friends who've been doing this for plus 10 years.

691
01:00:36,545 --> 01:00:37,485
And so it's crazy.

692
01:00:37,725 --> 01:00:45,145
But if you then, without, again, calling anyone out, but if you look at these people, they're living all by themselves.

693
01:00:45,645 --> 01:00:48,885
Usually they have no wife, no family and just traveling.

694
01:00:49,285 --> 01:00:53,725
And so, yeah, maybe if it's for you, then it's okayish.

695
01:00:53,825 --> 01:00:56,185
But like, I'm probably similar to you.

696
01:00:56,285 --> 01:00:57,445
I couldn't do this.

697
01:00:57,445 --> 01:01:12,105
And so, yeah, going back to where your roots are and really try to make a difference, like maybe, for example, Peter McCormack, you know, who's really now trying to get his city around and investing in the soccer club and everything.

698
01:01:12,105 --> 01:01:15,065
That's just that's another legacy that you can leave.

699
01:01:15,205 --> 01:01:20,345
And so, again, I mean, that's Bitcoin gives you the optionality, you know, in both ways.

700
01:01:20,345 --> 01:01:21,765
And that's what I like about it.

701
01:01:21,765 --> 01:01:27,325
And so, yeah, everyone to each his own, I guess that's that's what it is.

702
01:01:27,325 --> 01:01:28,985
But I'm with you on that.

703
01:01:29,965 --> 01:01:34,125
Yeah, no, I think that I mean, maybe that's the most important

704
01:01:35,065 --> 01:01:36,925
point to get out of.

705
01:01:36,960 --> 01:01:39,960
your individual Bitcoin enlightenment is that it gives you that optionality,

706
01:01:39,960 --> 01:01:47,840
which is far preferable to the lack of optionality that exists within the fiat system today.

707
01:01:48,460 --> 01:01:53,200
Yeah, no, that's definitely, that's something, this optionality,

708
01:01:53,440 --> 01:01:58,200
which is, I think, what freedom is for me eventually about, you know,

709
01:01:58,260 --> 01:02:01,940
like you get the options, you get to choose and exactly.

710
01:02:02,120 --> 01:02:05,700
That's also coming back to this whole MMT thing, you know,

711
01:02:05,700 --> 01:02:09,500
So, I mean, yeah, I do understand where they're going.

712
01:02:09,660 --> 01:02:16,720
But in the end, as I said, if you can only print the money and you cannot print the real resources, you have to source it from somewhere.

713
01:02:16,820 --> 01:02:28,120
And usually this only goes through like soft force or even hard force, you know, and then you sort of have to mandate stuff and you have to get people to work in health care.

714
01:02:28,380 --> 01:02:30,840
And that's why, because that's where you're spending all the money.

715
01:02:30,840 --> 01:02:37,220
And then so the resources has to sort of be transferred there and channeled into these industries.

716
01:02:37,520 --> 01:02:39,900
And so it's all through force.

717
01:02:40,140 --> 01:02:46,680
And in the end, exactly, that's not what my philosophical underpinning and belief is about.

718
01:02:46,880 --> 01:02:49,460
And that's what I prefer about Bitcoin.

719
01:02:49,460 --> 01:03:05,117
Everyone is adopting it freely and it gives you the choice to either live this nomadic lifestyle or go back and become a tribal big coiner in your family And we have a subchapter on this on the book as well

720
01:03:05,117 --> 01:03:16,037
It's exactly this in chapter seven, where we talk about this dichotomy or just like, yeah, the citadel versus like maybe the nomad or.

721
01:03:17,057 --> 01:03:21,077
Yeah, so it's probably going to be the future has we'll have both, I guess.

722
01:03:21,178 --> 01:03:21,358
Yeah.

723
01:03:22,437 --> 01:03:23,057
I would agree there.

724
01:03:23,957 --> 01:03:24,678
I would agree there.

725
01:03:25,358 --> 01:03:26,217
I'm not fucking leaving.

726
01:03:27,657 --> 01:03:28,017
Yes.

727
01:03:28,657 --> 01:03:29,358
I'm not leaving.

728
01:03:32,617 --> 01:03:33,597
This has been great.

729
01:03:33,597 --> 01:03:36,838
Where should we send people?

730
01:03:37,157 --> 01:03:37,797
The safe house?

731
01:03:38,738 --> 01:03:38,997
Yes.

732
01:03:39,238 --> 01:03:39,477
Yeah.

733
01:03:39,517 --> 01:03:40,858
In the end, it's the safe house.

734
01:03:40,957 --> 01:03:41,057
Yeah.

735
01:03:41,057 --> 01:03:42,077
That's where you get the book.

736
01:03:42,238 --> 01:03:43,037
It's also on Amazon.

737
01:03:43,318 --> 01:03:50,617
For anybody listening from Europe, I guess, Amazon.de from Germany is probably the best

738
01:03:50,617 --> 01:03:52,798
site because then you get no shipping costs.

739
01:03:52,798 --> 01:04:06,097
I don't know if we have figured it out on Amazon.com yet, but if you're from the States or internationally, it's the best place is probably to go and order it from the safe house because there it's the highest quality books that you get.

740
01:04:06,298 --> 01:04:11,818
Also in terms of wrapping and everything, I mean, safe is really making sure this is high standard.

741
01:04:13,218 --> 01:04:27,775
Safe building out a publishing empire one book at a time Yes he is He is Exactly You in great company at the safe house yes yeah that that for sure i mean it it amazing it it i mean i would have never imagined that

742
01:04:27,775 --> 01:04:33,935
we will ever publish a book through safe but i mean ricardo being a huge fan of his and that was

743
01:04:33,935 --> 01:04:40,495
maybe his his biggest requirement you know write a book which is close to the bitcoin standard and

744
01:04:40,495 --> 01:04:46,335
And we were like, dude, this is quite some pressure that you're putting on us here.

745
01:04:46,335 --> 01:04:51,435
And obviously, we didn't want to rewrite everything that Safe has already written.

746
01:04:51,615 --> 01:04:59,015
And that's why we tried to, with the philosophical angle that we talked about, with the historical angle that might not have been addressed so far.

747
01:04:59,215 --> 01:05:01,875
And so, yeah, in the end, I hope we did it.

748
01:05:01,995 --> 01:05:05,675
But yeah, it's such a privilege to be on board with him.

749
01:05:05,855 --> 01:05:08,715
So I can't complain for sure.

750
01:05:08,715 --> 01:05:18,075
Well, thank you for writing the book. I'm going to wait for my hardcover to show up. I'm a physical book maxi.

751
01:05:18,855 --> 01:05:19,695
Nice. Yeah.

752
01:05:19,775 --> 01:05:27,675
To finish the rest of the book beyond chapter four. But no, I think this message is incredibly powerful and important.

753
01:05:27,915 --> 01:05:31,595
I mean, there's many different ways through which people come to Bitcoin.

754
01:05:31,595 --> 01:05:48,773
I mean I long been an advocate of the more content the more angles on Bitcoin education the better People often ask me as somebody who been podcasting about Bitcoin for eight years now like oh you ever get triggered by all the new Bitcoin podcasts come to the market all

755
01:05:48,773 --> 01:05:49,232
the new books?

756
01:05:49,332 --> 01:05:51,072
I'm like, no, the more, the better.

757
01:05:52,193 --> 01:05:56,332
Each individual has something that they connect with differently.

758
01:05:57,012 --> 01:06:01,352
And the more angles you're sort of describing the problem and the solution, the better.

759
01:06:01,733 --> 01:06:03,093
Yeah, it's true.

760
01:06:03,173 --> 01:06:07,552
The less we get and we don't get to print any Bitcoin at all, the more we have to print

761
01:06:07,552 --> 01:06:13,113
Bitcoiners like you and me or like we have to print Bitcoin podcasts. And so everything else

762
01:06:13,113 --> 01:06:21,952
is probably fine. So yeah, keep them coming. All right. Well, Pascal, hope you enjoy your night.

763
01:06:22,852 --> 01:06:28,633
And Freaks, go pick up the book. Go pick up the book. Put it on the bookshelf. Read it. Spread it.

764
01:06:29,852 --> 01:06:35,312
And I'm sure we'll catch up this fall as well because there's going to be a lot going on.

765
01:06:35,312 --> 01:06:36,173
Great, Marty.

766
01:06:36,312 --> 01:06:37,352
Thanks for bringing me on.

767
01:06:37,852 --> 01:06:38,952
Keep up the work as well.

768
01:06:39,213 --> 01:06:43,892
And too bad I don't get to see you in Riga, but maybe, as you said, in fall or somewhere

769
01:06:43,892 --> 01:06:44,332
else.

770
01:06:45,752 --> 01:06:50,912
Yeah, Bitcoin is still a small world, at least among the core Bitcoiners, I'd argue.

771
01:06:51,293 --> 01:06:53,872
So every now and then we get to meet.

772
01:06:54,733 --> 01:06:56,113
We'll run into each other somewhere.

773
01:06:56,233 --> 01:06:56,533
Sure.

774
01:06:56,852 --> 01:06:58,012
Somewhere around the world at some point.

775
01:06:58,213 --> 01:06:58,613
Exactly.

776
01:06:59,073 --> 01:06:59,293
Cool.

777
01:06:59,733 --> 01:07:00,352
Thanks a lot.

778
01:07:00,493 --> 01:07:01,293
Have a great one.

779
01:07:02,293 --> 01:07:02,952
Thank you, you too.

780
01:07:03,033 --> 01:07:03,713
Peace and love, Freaks.

781
01:07:03,713 --> 01:07:04,273
The key!