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You've had a dynamic where money has become freer than free.

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You talk about a Fed just gone nuts.

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All the central banks going nuts.

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So it's all acting like safe haven.

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I believe that in a world where central bankers are tripping over themselves to devalue their currency,

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Bitcoin wins.

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In the world of fiat currencies, Bitcoin is the victor.

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I mean, that's part of the bull case for Bitcoin.

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If you're not paying attention, you probably should be.

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Are we going to distribute hashrate, Tyler?

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Way more than you think.

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Way more than you think.

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I was refreshing my stats for you, Marty, before I jumped on.

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Oh, good.

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Because the stats are what I want to talk about.

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You got fresh stats just for you.

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I feel like every time I see you, we were in Georgia together.

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Yeah.

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A couple of weeks ago.

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you're always making progress always more excited than the previous time i saw you

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and getting me more bullish on mining waste heat as a consumer application the heat's a product

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not waste but yeah yes yes yeah yeah it was fun to catch up in georgia um we're tinkering we're

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getting hash rate heating online well let's um let's give the audience a little intro to yourself

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for those who may be unaware what Tyler is up to.

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You have CEO of the space,

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but you're also started a company

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using Bitcoin mining heat as a byproduct

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to do the heating in homes, in home applications.

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That company is called Exergy.

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So why don't we get a little background on yourself,

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how you came to Bitcoin, Bitcoin mining specifically,

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and even further into the niche with a focus on using mining heat.

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Yeah, the Bitcoin story. Thanks for asking. I moved out to Colorado after grad school. I was

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studying mechanical engineering and it was happenstance. I'm one of the lucky few I was

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listening to. I think it was Jordan Peterson and Saifedean for my 20 hour drive from the Midwest.

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That was like one of my first intros to Bitcoin. And then I proceeded to listen to

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19 more hours of Bitcoin podcast on my drive and immediately found the BitDevs community out here.

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So I was fresh blood, but I avoided all the shit coinery. I was lucky in that case.

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My first Bitcoin ever bought was at the all time high of 2021. So it was all down, but

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I was surrounded by good people. I got brought out here to do aerospace engineering. So I worked

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for a company owned by Lockheed and Boeing called United Launch Alliance. They're kind of the

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the government version of SpaceX, let's say.

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SpaceX launches 100 plus rockets a year, though.

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ULA launches two.

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In that time, I would spend more time with the Bitcoiners.

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Obviously, I was working on thermal stuff, temperature predictions, heat rates,

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had that kind of eye for things.

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And it was at a BitDevs once where a friend of mine, Travis,

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brought like an S19 kit that was converted with a Loki board from Zach Bomster

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to run off 110 volts.

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And that was where I really saw the light for Bitcoin heating.

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And so I came in viewing these things as waste heat out the get go.

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That was my entry point to mining.

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Ultimately, I ended up leaving that role at the aerospace company after two years in January 24.

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It was funny.

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I actually was up till 1 a.m. in the launch control room watching the rocket I worked on for two years launch.

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Went to bed for six hours, came back 9 a.m., quit, went straight to Denver International Airport, flew to NEMS.

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First time I saw you, I think there at Bitcoin Park, met Rod and the guy, saw Schnitzel with his hash tub.

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And I was just I had I didn't really have a plan, but I knew like this is what I wanted to do.

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So what came out of that was that community from BitDevs.

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We kept working to build our Denver Bitcoin community into a physical location that started the space.

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Got 82 members now out here. Most of them are in Colorado.

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So we do a lot of events and that's where my office is now.

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And then in that time, I kept researching this Bitcoin heating thing and kept having calls with people, learning, tinkering, and ultimately just decided to tell the guys at Brains.

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I was like, hey, I have a lot of notes on this.

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Like, why don't we just put it into a book?

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And they were helpful and a great partner in that sense.

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And so I put together a book, Bitcoin Mining Heat Reuse.

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I got a copy of it here.

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And then the subsequent NEMS, 2025, that was where we met and I got you a copy, Marty.

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I launched that book this past January.

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And then really after that, come April timeframe,

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started to ideate on how this could get turned into a company.

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And so started at Xergy in April with my friend Mike Clear and Dylan Seib.

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And our goal is really to decentralize hashrate, bring mining back home where it started.

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Started in the homes with the laptops and the GPUs and transition to these industrial products,

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which makes sense.

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Like it's a story that you can follow all the steps.

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Difficulty went up.

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Got to have more power to compete.

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The device is literally like morphed into ICM as heaters because the reason their shoeboxes and like the power constraint and the hash rate constraint, the efficiency constraint, they literally can't pump more power into them or they're overheat.

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They're all like thermally bottlenecks.

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So they're little heating boxes.

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And we're trying to now use those for the main product they make, which is heat.

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Only sometimes they get Bitcoin and bring it back home.

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I love it. That's an incredible story. I didn't know that background that you found Bitcoin via Jordan Peterson and say, yeah, fell down the rabbit hole.

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I'm sure many people were listening to JP during the COVID time.

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Yeah. And then it takes balls to quit your job right after you watch your baby launch into space.

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Six hours later, that's.

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Yeah, it's funny working for the defense contractor.

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My dad's a longtime Air Force vet. I always had that mindset in my family.

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It's funny, my dad is very much like the straight arrow government guy.

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I joke with him because he went right in after college.

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So he's never made a free market dollar in his life.

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Like every dollar he's made is printed or stolen.

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Love you, dad.

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But and my mom is very much like the opposite.

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Always, you know, what kind of conspiracy theory?

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I don't trust this.

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I don't trust that.

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So there was some pushback, but I'm glad I pulled trigger.

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That's a good yin yang to have in the household.

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100%.

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obviously your parents did a good job to uh to foster an intellectual curiosity in yourself and

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more importantly the confidence to go follow that which i think is uh common among bitcoiners

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particularly those who are starting businesses you got to make the leap and i think that's

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number one admiral um and two it's almost insane because it's like why won't you just

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mine the fiat buy the bitcoin it's like no i i feel compelled totally to help push the ball forward

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and in terms of what you're doing at extra g this is something that has fascinated me mining just

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generally i've been in the mining industry now for seven years which is hard to believe um started

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off-grid flare gas mitigation learned a lot of hard lessons with great american mining good

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lessons, had a lot of fun times and learn more about energy over the course of four years than

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I did in the first, uh, 28 of my life, which is, uh, which was a fascinating experience. And still

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seven years into the mining journey, I feel just as ignorant as I was the day I started

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really researching it because it is a vast rabbit hole. And I think one of the factors

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that makes it such is just the ways in which people can apply mining

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in their everyday lives. Not in their everyday lives, but the ways

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in which mining can be applied, like you were mentioning. It's tangible.

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It's industrial. It's very tangible.

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For the longest time in Bitcoin,

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there's been this meme of ASIC commodification.

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The ASICs are a bottleneck, obviously, and particularly

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between 2019 and 2022 i would say it was like just a race to acquire asics the top of line asics

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whatever price plug them in because the advancements that bitmain and micro bt were making

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at the silicon level were such where if you weren't staying with the top of line hardware

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you're falling behind but it seems like we're getting to a point where the physical limits on

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the silicon is beginning to approaching the limits of where you can really make step function

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improvements and efficiency yeah and i've always thought that we were going to get to this

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point in time but then when we get here i think that's what really unleashes the cool stuff like

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you sort of had this journey with bitcoin mining where it started at home people running their

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laptops or computers, GPUs, ASICs come, then it sort of goes industrial.

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But I think with commodification, it'll go back to the home eventually.

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I think it has to, to a certain extent, not only from an economic viability perspective,

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but from a health of the network and particularly hash rate ownership distribution being sufficiently distributed.

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I agree. I mean, I think it makes sense during that ASIC race.

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And we're starting to see, I mean, people have been talking about Morris loss for years, but I think we are starting to see that plateau and year over year efficiency gains.

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And in that time when each new generation of industrial ASIC was leaps and bounds ahead of the other one.

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I mean, it makes sense to me again to just think like if that was your bottom line for profitability, there was no time to focus on anything else.

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And that's kind of led to a lot of the bad acting, I guess you could say, from the Bitmains and the MicroBTs and just the inattention to customers.

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You and I saw it when we were at the proto launch, right?

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In one way, it's like, oh, wow, that's amazing.

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Look at what can happen.

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This must have been a ton of hard work.

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But in the other way, you look at it, and this was part of my reaction there.

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It's like, their competition wasn't very that hard to beat.

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You're telling me a company as successful as Block, my competition is Bitmain?

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And all I have to do is ask the customers what they want.

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They've been screaming with pitchforks for 10 years.

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So it's cool to see that now that efficiency,

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year-over-year improvements are kind of plateauing,

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some attention is paid to other areas for improvements and optimization.

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And I think that will also transition, I agree,

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to more unique applications for hashrate outside of the data center.

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Yeah, and it seems like the Proto team has that in mind

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with the modular nature with which they designed the rig,

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which is a great name.

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And it'll be really cool to see how people use that modularity to create specific and unique setups for their particular circumstances, which is, again, desperately needed.

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But let's focus in on the particular part of the market that you're looking to take over with XRG.

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And I'm trying to think of where to start.

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Like maybe we should start with the physics of the machines and the thermal dynamics of the machines and why these mining machines produce heat and why not wasting that heat is a good thing.

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Yeah.

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My friend Rob Warren said it well, like the Bitcoin protocol mining, Satoshi invented a way to make a computer sweat.

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Like that's what proof of work is.

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So all they're doing is taking electricity and perform these hash operations as fast as possible, as many as possible.

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It's power.

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And the thing about electric heating and energy is you can't create or destroy energy.

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It all has to be conserved.

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So 100% of that energy you push through your desktop or your laptop.

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And in the case of a Bitcoin miner, it doesn't have a screen.

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It doesn't really, there's a small amount for the fans.

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but all that electricity used to mine is converted into heat. It has to turn into something. There's

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nowhere for it to go. And so they've gotten so power dense because they are computers that do

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just this one thing and they sweat, they convert electricity into heat. Why would you not like

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monetize that heat? And so that's really the blunt of it. From a physics standpoint, it's no different

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than a typical resistive, you know, heater that just has copper traces or some nickel chromium

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alloy and you're just sending electrons current through a very specific path instead of and so the

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the resistor is this asic in this sense right and so all you're doing is the same thing as electric

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heating but you're passing the electrons and the current through this special path and then you're

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telling a network of other computers doing the same thing that you're doing it and that network

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happens to pay you for passing the current through that path if you're successful in mining a block

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So that's basically the blunt of the physics of it.

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I mean, it's smart resistive heating.

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It's resistive heating with protocol attached to it.

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Yeah, I think the protocol that will pay for these computations is the real unlock for using the waste heat economically.

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Yeah.

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And one thing I thought of recently, which is why this is cool and makes sense now,

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because like monetized heating,

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you could have your 1200 watt gaming desktop

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or you could monetize the heat

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from a Grok AI cluster of GPUs

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of NVIDIA A100s or whatever.

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But because of the Bitcoin protocol,

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it's the first time you can like distribute it

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and decentralize it into chunks.

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Like you can break up the data center.

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You can't break up an open AI data center

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and make part of it your water heater.

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It has to be on full time.

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They need the uptime.

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It doesn't make sense,

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But because of the protocol, the rewards are proportional to the electricity you put in.

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They don't do anything but mine this algorithm.

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So all you have to do is turn them on and they immediately start doing it.

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And that way you can actually control it like a heater.

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When you call for heat, it's on.

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And every watt of electricity that's turning into heat is also going towards the mining network.

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So it's pretty cool to think of it that way.

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No, it really is.

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I think this sets us up for the next question is why should these mining machines replace incumbent heating machines that already exist throughout the economy?

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Does it make economic sense?

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Yeah, I was starry eyed and bullish on this from the guys that have taken S9 space heaters and, you know, made them quiet and put them in their living room and said, look, honey, it's cool.

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This is mining.

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Um but but how does that scale And where I was pleasantly surprised is a local to Colorado where I am I looked up in the mountains People are on propane heat in these high altitude towns that don have natural gas

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lines drilled through the granite. Natural gas is cheap here in the U S we didn't blow up any

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pipelines for ourselves yet, but, uh, we, the stored fuel sources, propane heating oil, uh,

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in new England, old country, right. Which is essentially just diesel. They're expensive.

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And I found that the electric price, like on a dollar per kilowatt equivalent, like natural gas is like two cents a kilowatt hour.

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But propane and heating oil are like 11, 12, 13 on average.

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If your electric rate's 15 cents a kilowatt hour, but you also get the Bitcoin mind, depends on the efficiency of the machine.

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You can like energy arbitrage it.

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and where I am in that high altitude climate,

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you can find opportunities to save 80% plus,

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100% plus on heating bills

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if you're counting that Bitcoin rebate

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to offset those utility costs.

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Do you think this market is constrained to areas that have high electricity costs with propane and oil?

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Yeah.

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There's a few variables that make you a good candidate.

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Obviously, you have to have heat demand because a miner, at the end of the day, is an expensive, high-performance device.

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It's complicated in a sense.

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there's a lot of work that went into developing those ASIC chips. It's a whole nother conversation

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talk about like retirement homes for old hash boards that have depreciated. But

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if you use heat a lot, that's essentially your uptime. Because we're talking about mining not

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100% uptime, and then you use the heat when it's convenient. This is hash rate heating,

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as I'm coining it, is just matching your hash rate to your heat demand. And so if you use heat more,

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then you're going to pay that machine off faster, you're going to reap those rewards faster.

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they're kind of ticking time bombs in a sense because the rest of the network difficulty does

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go up. So they're like heaters that pay, but their rewards are less and less each year. And so like

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tangent to proto's modular hash board, that's a sweet way to like upgrade your heating element

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of your furnace or boiler. But another variable that makes you a good candidate is the cost of

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that utility. Solar plays a huge part in that too. I mean, I found here in the space where I'm at,

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We are on natural gas, so the heat is like two cents a kilowatt hour.

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But we have 20 kilowatts of solar right out my window here.

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And so we're trying to prototype, demo site, this whole smart energy stack up where we're generating our own power.

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We're going to store it in a battery power wall.

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We're going to use the heat from Bitcoin miners as the priority.

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In the summer, when we have generation, we are going to dump the heat outside.

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So we're monetizing all the solar on the roof instead of getting like one cent per kilowatt hour credits back from the local utility.

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And then we still have the natural gas heating system in place like worst comes to shove.

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So it's a backup in that sense.

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I think that's probably a way it will scale is really upgrading the whole smart energy stack up from a sovereignty perspective.

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Utilities aren't going to like it in that sense because every home can serve as its own generation, its own revenue generator.

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but it does increase efficiency and it decentralizes the network yeah and you've run the

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numbers on the total addressable market in terms of yeah the arbitrage that exists between

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where the market for home heating is now to where it could be if bitcoin mining as a heat source

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were implemented um so that's the one thing that stuck out to me at your talk during nems

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at the beginning of this year was what the opportunity looks like from an additional

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hash rate perspective it's wild on bitcoin so one percent well i'll back up um like 50 percent of

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the world's energy is used for heat a lot of that is industrial processes like melting steel and um

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manufacturing things. But another 50% of that is what we call comfort heat. That's your space

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heating, keeping your building warm, your water heating, pool heating, luxury heating, things

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like that. And the comfort heat differentiator is important because that's the temperature range

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that a Bitcoin miner can deliver. Their computers, they don't have flames inside of them. They have

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electricity. It's friction heat at the end of the day. And 1% of comfort heat would add two Zeta

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hash to the network if that was powered by hash rate. And I updated my stats for you today to get

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a little more specific. This is wild. I was looking at the target markets more. Got my notes over here.

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USA only furnaces and boilers. So just air heat, keeping buildings warm in the USA.

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That's five zeta hash. If you got all of it on hash rate, the U.S. water heating,

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water heaters in the U.S. 2.3 zeta hash. U.S. propane and heating oil. So if we just were going

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after the target markets where we can offer these people a big savings on their utility bill,

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another 1.5 set of hash. It's massive, hundreds of times bigger than the energy used for Bitcoin

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mining. Which is funny for all the fudsters to say, you know, Bitcoin mining is wasteful,

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the energy consumption is wasteful, and the amount of energy being used to make heat for people is

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like 250 times larger. So we should just start calling them electric heaters, I guess.

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we really should i mean in europe that's what they love that's what they all use

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those electric heaters yep they don't like air conditioners but they like electric heaters yeah

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um and with that being said i'm gonna share my screen okay you guys you've been building out one

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of these systems at the space it's like a proof of concept and why don't we just describe i think

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this is like the perfect tweet to bring up because you have the sure the heat map visualization and

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then you have yourself we won't turn the audio on the video but you're you did the video so i'm sure

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you can describe it anyway but what are we looking at here this is a good video to walk through

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because it also highlights some of the challenges with doing this um that right there is the only

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bitcoin miner that is hydro cooled which means it heats water hydro cooled water heating it's

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kind of inverse the bitcoin or the miners out there are like it's water cooled and us heaters

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say it's water heating. But it's the only one that's single phase power, which is what you have

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in residential applications or a small business like the space here in the USA and North America.

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So the European guys, they benefited from having three phase power in their homes. They can use

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like a dozen different hydro miners from Bitmain and whatnot. But this M64 is the only one. It's

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really unlocked the ability to do exactly this in the US. That is a heat core rack around it.

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It's called an H-Series.

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And he, of course, partnered with MicroBT.

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They make larger racks for industrial use cases

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and data center style mining operations.

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But this tiny little unit just has one, a pump,

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a heat exchanger and a little fan attached to it.

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And it's sweet.

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Like it's pretty simple to set up, plug and play.

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All it does is dump out 80 degrees Celsius water.

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It was ramping up in that video.

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And then we had a plumber come and install

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radiant flooring in our building.

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We have the floor joists exposed.

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So that's just PEX tubing.

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through all the floor the thermal images do a good job and it was ramping up in temperature but

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this is going to be our heat source in the winter we'll have radiant heated floors uh showed off at

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the heat punk summit but that's one minor and uh it's enough btu per square foot or uh for the

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minors listening like enough kilowatt power uh to service our building which is first floors around

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um 3 000 square feet that's pretty crazy yeah they're super power dense like people don't

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realize one big that one bitcoin miner is like five or six horsepower like i would have i would

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have thought you need at least five five miners to to heat a building of that size 3 000 square

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feet is not small they're so power dense and and that's ultimately like what i'm trying to help do

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with xerg2 i i think of it as hand-holding right now but in the heating industry like what heat

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bit's doing is awesome what canaan's doing with their mini space heaters and there's a couple

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other ones like 21 Energy in Europe and whatnot. But when it's not a gadget, like a space heater

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that you plug in yourself, you don't pick your own boiler. You call the heating guy. You call the

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plumber and they tell you what you need and they install it for water heaters, furnaces, boilers.

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So we were working in tandem with that plumber. We learned some things along the way. Sizing is a

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00:25:41,265 --> 00:25:45,585
big part of it for the Bitcoiners out there. You don't need as much as you think. So we help people

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figure out what they need. But it was fun working with that plumber. Like I asked him, there's a

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quirk about that system. I asked him for a mixing valve, which lets you mix hot and cold water. It's

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like what your shower has, right? So it mixes the two knobs so you don't burn yourself. And he

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installed it into the boiler. Like it was mixing the water going into the minor. And I was like,

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why'd you do this? And then I realized from reading like these old hydronic heating books that

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you do that because natural gas boilers, if you put too cold of water into them, they like

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condense and start sweating and rust themselves to death. But I needed the mixing valve the other

358
00:26:19,005 --> 00:26:23,225
way because the bitcoin miner water is actually too hot and it would warp the wooden floors

359
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like 80 degrees celsius will melt the uh the adhesive between the laminate and the subfloor

360
00:26:30,025 --> 00:26:35,485
and so we have to dial that back to like 120 f so we're learning we're figuring out we had to get a

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demo site online and i mean this is coming back to the reoccurring conversation we've been having

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00:26:43,565 --> 00:26:48,125
over the course of this year it's like how does this market develop does it take somebody

363
00:26:48,125 --> 00:26:56,405
like XRG to build an HVAC system themselves or as a partnering with plumbers, HVAC providers,

364
00:26:57,105 --> 00:27:01,705
and really teaching them how to begin to incorporate this into their service offering?

365
00:27:02,825 --> 00:27:08,905
Yeah, I think it'll be a big challenge and transition period. So right now we're very

366
00:27:08,905 --> 00:27:13,905
much involved in the loop with, you can't call a heating company and ask them to size a hash rate

367
00:27:13,905 --> 00:27:19,105
heater for you but you can call us and you tell us your home size and where you live and how cold

368
00:27:19,105 --> 00:27:23,125
it is you give us some bills that helps or you show us how big your other boiler is or your furnace

369
00:27:23,125 --> 00:27:29,225
and we translate we're translators we translate that into which systems work for you like i know

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00:27:29,225 --> 00:27:33,385
that that hydro miner is the only one that's single phase power the average person might not

371
00:27:33,385 --> 00:27:38,925
know that um and and what it fits into to make it a good boiler um and then when it comes to

372
00:27:38,925 --> 00:27:44,045
installation, the products are getting kind of better. Like that one just had hot and cold hookups,

373
00:27:44,305 --> 00:27:49,085
power inlet, plumber could figure that out. He's not going to figure out plugging in the ethernet.

374
00:27:49,165 --> 00:27:52,445
Well, he'll figure out plugging in the ethernet, but he's not going to like IP scan the boiler,

375
00:27:53,105 --> 00:27:58,545
log in with root root, set up the mining pool payouts. And so that's where we're still hand

376
00:27:58,545 --> 00:28:04,065
holding that part as well. I think ultimately if the products are good enough, another callback to

377
00:28:04,065 --> 00:28:07,445
the proto launch, like I was super bullish to see the fleet announcement where they were like,

378
00:28:07,445 --> 00:28:11,165
oh, it's a built-in software fleet management that has an IP scanner.

379
00:28:11,765 --> 00:28:14,805
And you just press start and it finds the miner, logs in,

380
00:28:14,925 --> 00:28:17,185
automatically logs into the credentials, gets it online,

381
00:28:17,925 --> 00:28:18,865
gives all your notifications.

382
00:28:19,245 --> 00:28:21,645
My heating brain was like, oh my gosh, that's going to be awesome

383
00:28:21,645 --> 00:28:25,625
if I can just have Tradesman plug in systems and press boot on

384
00:28:25,625 --> 00:28:29,345
and they authenticate themselves and get themselves online.

385
00:28:30,185 --> 00:28:33,005
And I guess one other thing I'd say on that,

386
00:28:33,165 --> 00:28:35,205
because incentives drive everything,

387
00:28:35,205 --> 00:28:39,305
would be giving some hash rate splits to the installers,

388
00:28:39,425 --> 00:28:41,945
which is one of the coolest things about hash rate heating.

389
00:28:42,225 --> 00:28:45,625
And aside from the whole economic angle

390
00:28:45,625 --> 00:28:48,505
to save and offset your heating bill with Bitcoin rebate,

391
00:28:48,685 --> 00:28:52,485
you can imagine a future where a network

392
00:28:52,485 --> 00:28:55,105
of thousands of installers across the US

393
00:28:55,105 --> 00:28:58,525
were incentivized to recommend hash rate heated furnaces

394
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over the other because they got 1%, 2% of the hash rate

395
00:29:02,625 --> 00:29:03,785
of every system online.

396
00:29:03,785 --> 00:29:06,725
and then if they were in a town of a thousand people

397
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and they managed a fleet of them,

398
00:29:09,265 --> 00:29:11,065
there are smart computers at the end of the day.

399
00:29:11,205 --> 00:29:12,345
You can check their hash rate.

400
00:29:12,725 --> 00:29:14,625
You can get notifications on temperature sensors.

401
00:29:14,765 --> 00:29:16,325
These computers have notifications.

402
00:29:16,465 --> 00:29:17,345
They have sensors, they have firmware,

403
00:29:17,445 --> 00:29:19,205
they have smart software, all this stuff.

404
00:29:20,605 --> 00:29:22,825
Essentially, you could have like water heaters

405
00:29:22,825 --> 00:29:27,125
or heating appliances that notify your plumber

406
00:29:27,125 --> 00:29:28,865
to come fix them before you even know

407
00:29:28,865 --> 00:29:29,865
there's a problem with it.

408
00:29:30,325 --> 00:29:32,085
And maybe it's like some passive income split

409
00:29:32,085 --> 00:29:33,625
for them to come help you manage that.

410
00:29:33,785 --> 00:29:37,225
And it flips the structure where it's like, I'm going to wait for your thing to break.

411
00:29:37,705 --> 00:29:38,485
I'll come to your house.

412
00:29:38,565 --> 00:29:40,065
I'll charge you 500 bucks to fix it.

413
00:29:40,125 --> 00:29:44,025
To I'm managing this fleet of systems that's passive income for me.

414
00:29:44,145 --> 00:29:46,265
I want to make sure they're all tip top healthy all the time.

415
00:29:48,125 --> 00:29:52,865
That's an incredible flipping of incentives that makes a lot of sense.

416
00:29:53,665 --> 00:30:00,745
And so you've said it multiple times now, like really to dig in, explain it like I'm five Bitcoin rebate.

417
00:30:00,745 --> 00:30:07,885
So on the economic side of the thing, you plug that in, you guys are heating the floor at the space.

418
00:30:09,045 --> 00:30:11,325
How does it like, obviously, you're still getting electricity bill.

419
00:30:11,385 --> 00:30:13,485
The miners pulling electricity is very power dense.

420
00:30:14,005 --> 00:30:16,125
You're pointing that hash rate at a pool.

421
00:30:16,725 --> 00:30:21,285
What are the mechanics of actually realizing this rebate?

422
00:30:22,685 --> 00:30:23,965
So for us, we want the Bitcoin.

423
00:30:24,265 --> 00:30:26,665
We have our own datum gateway at the space.

424
00:30:27,265 --> 00:30:28,765
XRG has one, space has one.

425
00:30:28,765 --> 00:30:47,830
And it giving us daily payouts on CLN to our Lightning node But I realized that you know to scale beyond the average Bitcoin or even the technical Bitcoin or those are more technical things not I don think most Bitcoiners run a CLN node or datum You know there ways to get the rebate the and I call it a rebate

426
00:30:47,830 --> 00:30:53,930
because I'm trying to flip the notion that it's like Bitcoin mining heat reuse, I view that as

427
00:30:53,930 --> 00:30:59,250
the mega miner sites that sell some heat to a greenhouse next door, or the Finland district

428
00:30:59,250 --> 00:31:02,590
heating project because it's a full-time Bitcoin mining operation. They sell the heat when it's

429
00:31:02,590 --> 00:31:08,350
convenient. No, this is a full-time heating operation. Heat is my one commandment. And the

430
00:31:08,350 --> 00:31:14,950
Bitcoin is just like a rebate. It's an extra positive. I think, you know, even with tools

431
00:31:14,950 --> 00:31:19,350
like Strike and whatnot, it's becoming more possible to give the customer like the dollar,

432
00:31:19,490 --> 00:31:24,430
the dollar rebate, if that's ultimately what they cared about. There's a lot of complexities with it

433
00:31:24,430 --> 00:31:30,910
though, because, you know, I have a fear if it was a non Bitcoin aware customer, not a fear,

434
00:31:30,950 --> 00:31:36,010
but it's going to be something worth solving is, oh, maybe your propane bill was 100 bucks a month.

435
00:31:36,550 --> 00:31:43,170
And now your electric heating bill is $200 a month, but you're going to get back $150 worth

436
00:31:43,170 --> 00:31:48,390
of Bitcoin. So you're actually like saving 50 bucks. But it depends on the timing. What if I

437
00:31:48,390 --> 00:31:52,750
give them their rebate like two weeks after they paid a $200 electric bill, they're going to just

438
00:31:52,750 --> 00:31:57,650
say what the hell man my heating bill just went up um and so there's a lot of nuance involved there

439
00:31:57,650 --> 00:32:03,850
it should be possible um but that's what i mean by rebate i'm just trying to you know flip the

440
00:32:03,850 --> 00:32:09,730
notion of like mining operation versus heating operation yeah this is where something um

441
00:32:09,730 --> 00:32:21,250
like uh i always forget the acronym of the nvp rnc the hash pools the e hash pools oh yeah yeah

442
00:32:21,250 --> 00:32:28,470
I uh I remember with Evan who was working on eHash and Gary at Thames um I think that would

443
00:32:28,470 --> 00:32:34,410
be super that's another good thing worth diving into I need to study this more because heating

444
00:32:34,410 --> 00:32:43,170
systems are um they're on and off um and their power depends on your heat demand and so what

445
00:32:43,170 --> 00:32:49,150
does that mean for your payout structures and um like how much you're contributing like does it

446
00:32:49,150 --> 00:32:52,850
does it mean you have to use FPPS to get the most bang for your buck

447
00:32:52,850 --> 00:32:55,430
and get the best rewards because your share window

448
00:32:55,430 --> 00:32:57,970
and you're constantly cycling your duty cycle on and off

449
00:32:57,970 --> 00:32:59,490
or adjusting your power settings?

450
00:32:59,610 --> 00:33:01,510
It's not steady state like a mining operation.

451
00:33:01,790 --> 00:33:03,710
So I'm really excited about the eHash stuff.

452
00:33:03,850 --> 00:33:05,530
I need to deep dive more into that.

453
00:33:05,970 --> 00:33:09,610
Yeah, you can point hash whenever, get eHash,

454
00:33:09,970 --> 00:33:12,870
share tokens and return and sell those for Bitcoin.

455
00:33:13,370 --> 00:33:14,890
Yeah, automatically if you want to.

456
00:33:14,890 --> 00:33:22,150
similar to fpps but with a different sort of mechanism it's crazy how creative you can get

457
00:33:22,150 --> 00:33:27,030
with all these things and i think it highlights the fact that we're just banging around all these

458
00:33:27,030 --> 00:33:31,470
ideas it seems like there's obviously some disconnection in the market um to make it a

459
00:33:31,470 --> 00:33:38,110
a well-rounded like fully immersive experience where it's intuitive and you don't even have to

460
00:33:38,110 --> 00:33:46,470
think about it but yeah i think it also highlights how different the mining industry could be years

461
00:33:46,470 --> 00:33:52,530
on from now and we'll look back and look at the uh the bitmain world and the ant pool world and

462
00:33:52,530 --> 00:33:58,130
the mega miners that you know we're just running their mining operations for profit without some

463
00:33:58,130 --> 00:34:02,550
utility like i'm a big believer that you have to have some utility to stay afloat that utility could

464
00:34:02,550 --> 00:34:10,310
be monetizing stranded energy. So off grid, that utility could be curtailment, demand response,

465
00:34:10,310 --> 00:34:15,670
or even national security. I mean, that's an argument. For the BIDX guys, the utility is

466
00:34:15,670 --> 00:34:18,830
supporting the network. That's what's useful to them. And that's why they'll do it for a sunk cost.

467
00:34:19,470 --> 00:34:26,350
But I think hash rate heating is the perfect Trojan horse to just hide it in a heating utility,

468
00:34:26,470 --> 00:34:29,670
a sunk cost that everyone pays. And they're not going to stop paying it.

469
00:34:29,670 --> 00:34:33,790
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478
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479
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480
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481
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482
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483
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485
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489
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490
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491
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492
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That's opportunitycost.app.

493
00:35:54,350 --> 00:36:08,950
And then you get into the dynamics of how this could potentially not only distribute hash rate ownership significantly, but the pool layer as well, which is arguably way more centralized than hash rate ownership.

494
00:36:09,470 --> 00:36:13,130
Inarguably more centralized than hash rate ownership.

495
00:36:13,130 --> 00:36:21,530
and you can think of scenarios and ways in which these system operators operate,

496
00:36:21,810 --> 00:36:25,270
where you have like an HVAC company that has their own little pool.

497
00:36:26,210 --> 00:36:30,510
Thousands of HVAC companies have their own little pools.

498
00:36:30,970 --> 00:36:36,410
It's way more opportunities to select your pool structure, your block templates, for sure.

499
00:36:36,410 --> 00:36:36,970
Yeah.

500
00:36:37,830 --> 00:36:42,670
What's one thing, what excites you the most about this?

501
00:36:42,670 --> 00:36:46,170
Is it the heat side? Is it hash rate distribution?

502
00:36:47,490 --> 00:36:50,970
I think the narrative of the market of HVAC.

503
00:36:52,590 --> 00:36:57,250
Well, that is funny because the heating industry hasn't been innovated in 100 years.

504
00:36:58,410 --> 00:37:00,890
So smart monetized heat is a fun angle.

505
00:37:01,550 --> 00:37:02,590
There's a bunch of fun angles.

506
00:37:03,070 --> 00:37:08,770
I think what gets me most excited is just clearly the demand is there to bring mining back home.

507
00:37:08,770 --> 00:37:15,150
the open source miners united the bid x guys the little nerd x's everybody wants these little

508
00:37:15,150 --> 00:37:19,130
products it's cool to see companies like canin make the nanos and the minis and

509
00:37:19,130 --> 00:37:24,550
people want to get hashed into their house they want to support the network in a complete manner

510
00:37:24,550 --> 00:37:29,330
and i think this is a really cool way to to do that from cypherpunk back to heatpunk

511
00:37:29,330 --> 00:37:37,350
start in the home bring it back home at scale yeah and how do you see this market developing

512
00:37:37,350 --> 00:37:44,490
Are we very early on in a trend that will be obvious five years from now, 10 years from now?

513
00:37:44,630 --> 00:37:49,050
Or is the timing right to implement this widely?

514
00:37:50,270 --> 00:37:56,910
I think the timing is right to start paying attention to it and building this.

515
00:37:59,230 --> 00:38:06,070
If you would have asked me this 18 months ago, I would have said the hardware sucks, the firmware sucks, like this sucks.

516
00:38:06,070 --> 00:38:11,490
but it can be done. Everyone that's doing it was strapping S19s in their duct work. And at the end

517
00:38:11,490 --> 00:38:16,030
of the day, they were all just already Bitcoiners and already DIY guys that wanted to tinker.

518
00:38:16,990 --> 00:38:22,370
But everyone on planet Earth, even in warm climates, uses hot water. They need heat.

519
00:38:23,830 --> 00:38:29,690
The timing, what gets me excited is the fact that we now have commitments from companies like

520
00:38:29,690 --> 00:38:36,610
Auradyne and Proto to give chips, you know, that's like a missing piece. I can't go. I mean,

521
00:38:36,630 --> 00:38:41,490
I could maybe, but it'd take a long time and a life's worth work of dedication to go spin up like

522
00:38:41,490 --> 00:38:46,170
an ASIC chip development in a fab. So that that's something that a heating company is never going to

523
00:38:46,170 --> 00:38:52,690
do. I think that the 256 foundation efforts to open source the full mining stack firmware,

524
00:38:52,690 --> 00:39:00,570
even the pool hydro pool setup the control board hash board is really outlining like mapping out

525
00:39:00,570 --> 00:39:05,290
all the stepping stones to build hash boards and miners and completely new form factors and

526
00:39:05,290 --> 00:39:13,850
different use cases and i think in at the same time it makes sense for me to be doing what i'm

527
00:39:13,850 --> 00:39:17,350
doing with exergy which is trying to get the education out there and start the conversations

528
00:39:17,350 --> 00:39:21,130
with the tradesmen and the installers, the trade organizations, because

529
00:39:21,130 --> 00:39:25,510
I think that the space heaters

530
00:39:25,510 --> 00:39:28,510
have shown that this is another cool way to mine.

531
00:39:29,330 --> 00:39:33,110
They've had great success, but there's just this big

532
00:39:33,110 --> 00:39:37,270
bottleneck to go from space heaters to integrated heating infrastructure because people don't

533
00:39:37,270 --> 00:39:41,430
install it themselves. And so you transition from an engineering problem

534
00:39:41,430 --> 00:39:43,350
to a people problem and a distribution problem.

535
00:39:43,350 --> 00:39:50,070
and so for me with exergy like when i view my competitors in my head when i'm mapping out my

536
00:39:50,070 --> 00:39:56,730
business it's like ream and carrier and bosch and general electric and then all the tens of

537
00:39:56,730 --> 00:40:01,990
thousands of distributors that sell their products and go to their conferences around the country

538
00:40:01,990 --> 00:40:08,490
yeah i think i don't know no the two of us weren't talking about it but i was talking with

539
00:40:08,490 --> 00:40:15,250
somebody at the Proto event who's in the off-grid natural gas mining space and they were saying that

540
00:40:15,250 --> 00:40:21,070
it's been much higher ROI for them to go to the oil and gas conferences compared to the Bitcoin

541
00:40:21,070 --> 00:40:26,230
conferences and I imagine for a company like XRG it could be similar where Bitcoin or see what

542
00:40:26,230 --> 00:40:32,350
you're doing they're like yeah this is awesome thank you we want more of this but it's not really

543
00:40:32,350 --> 00:40:38,190
a needle mover in terms of finding an end client.

544
00:40:38,410 --> 00:40:41,870
Whereas if you go to these trade shows and conferences

545
00:40:41,870 --> 00:40:46,610
dedicated to HVAC systems and the heating industry,

546
00:40:46,990 --> 00:40:49,990
if that even exists as a name.

547
00:40:50,350 --> 00:40:51,190
It's a huge industry.

548
00:40:51,490 --> 00:40:52,370
And we have to, right?

549
00:40:52,430 --> 00:40:54,110
Because here's an example.

550
00:40:54,210 --> 00:40:56,990
We were working on a proposal for a commercial project,

551
00:40:57,650 --> 00:40:58,530
which you're excited about.

552
00:40:58,570 --> 00:40:59,370
You're like, oh, it's a business.

553
00:40:59,470 --> 00:40:59,990
Let's do it.

554
00:40:59,990 --> 00:41:05,850
you get asked a question like are these miners ul certified and it's like shit i never thought

555
00:41:05,850 --> 00:41:12,030
about that the mega miners don't care oh it turns out some of them are not oh um hey can you is this

556
00:41:12,030 --> 00:41:16,890
insured as an electric heating system or a bitcoin mining operation because the premiums eight times

557
00:41:16,890 --> 00:41:20,910
more if you if you call it a big but it's we already talked about the physics it's the same

558
00:41:20,910 --> 00:41:28,890
thing um and then you know rebate subsidies where people have signs in their front yard in denver

559
00:41:28,890 --> 00:41:32,350
here where I'm at, like this house has been converted to 100% electric. That's the whole

560
00:41:32,350 --> 00:41:37,070
green angle, which I haven't even gotten into. And it's, it's obviously not what gets me up in

561
00:41:37,070 --> 00:41:41,670
the morning, but that's a whole other arguments to make as well. So we got to start having those

562
00:41:41,670 --> 00:41:45,590
conversations doing that groundwork. Well, what's the green argument?

563
00:41:46,350 --> 00:41:51,570
The green argument is these are emissions free heaters. They're trying to get natural gas out of

564
00:41:51,570 --> 00:41:57,350
the homes. The, the new proposition in Denver, the past is that new builds can't have natural gas.

565
00:41:57,350 --> 00:42:05,770
um you know stovetops heaters um i think there was even one that didn't pass that your like lawn

566
00:42:05,770 --> 00:42:09,370
care equipment if you bought in denver county couldn't like it had to be electric lawnmowers

567
00:42:09,370 --> 00:42:15,130
and everything so they'll stop at nothing um it's just convenient in the sense that like

568
00:42:15,130 --> 00:42:22,250
if they're if their efforts to um die on the the climate cultism hill also um integrate bitcoin

569
00:42:22,250 --> 00:42:28,010
mining into people's homes yeah you gotta make lemonade with lemons it is insane that they're

570
00:42:28,010 --> 00:42:35,850
doing that in fact if anybody tried to take away my natural gas stove and oven i'd be pretty pissed

571
00:42:35,850 --> 00:42:47,150
yeah 100 yeah the uh i love talking to you and others like you because in an era of bitcoin

572
00:42:47,150 --> 00:43:00,210
Somebody's been around the block for 12 years now where a lot of the dominant conversation of the day is focused on Bitcoin treasury companies and nation state adoption and what the Trump administration thinks, which.

573
00:43:01,130 --> 00:43:06,950
I will say it's all interesting to a certain extent and definitely important to a certain extent.

574
00:43:06,950 --> 00:43:20,030
But at the end of the day, the network is a distributed protocol that needs to remain sufficiently distributed for any of the other stuff I just mentioned actually makes sense in the first place.

575
00:43:20,390 --> 00:43:32,710
It feels good to see people like yourself out there actually doing the hard work to solve that really hard long term problem, which is how do we keep this sufficiently distributed?

576
00:43:32,710 --> 00:43:38,570
and it's even more fun speaking to someone like you because it seems like you're having a ton of

577
00:43:38,570 --> 00:43:45,370
fun doing it it is a blast i appreciate you saying that um it feels like we're on the cutting edge

578
00:43:45,370 --> 00:43:51,130
you know bitcoin's niche mining is more niche and then bitcoin mining heating is niche of niche of

579
00:43:51,130 --> 00:43:59,370
niche which is a fun place to be for sure yeah and to any of the heat industry individuals who

580
00:43:59,370 --> 00:44:04,630
may be listening to this like what pitch would you give to them to begin exploring this how are

581
00:44:04,630 --> 00:44:10,470
you approaching yeah the sales to this what's been really helpful is showing off the demo site

582
00:44:10,470 --> 00:44:18,510
we had a real estate developer come see it and that led to now their mechanical engineering and

583
00:44:18,510 --> 00:44:25,110
plumbing firm is coming so when a new project is built they you hire the architect they hire the

584
00:44:25,110 --> 00:44:30,190
MEP team and all the subs to actually design everything. And so that led to a conversation

585
00:44:30,190 --> 00:44:34,670
with the MEP team, which is really helpful in a sense that these guys are pros at sizing heating

586
00:44:34,670 --> 00:44:39,130
systems. That's their freaking job. And then I just have to translate that into Bitcoin mining

587
00:44:39,130 --> 00:44:44,210
systems that work for the job. So that's really helpful to see it in the flesh.

588
00:44:45,150 --> 00:44:50,770
And that's why I built the Heat Punk community forum too. So heatpunks.org. You can, you know,

589
00:44:50,770 --> 00:44:54,090
if you're one of those people, you can go see some other systems, people post their projects,

590
00:44:54,090 --> 00:44:59,070
their tinkering, their products. People, I saw a post this week, some guy was like, this is awesome.

591
00:44:59,710 --> 00:45:05,510
I'm a blue collar tradesman. I can travel around. I'm happy to work on these. So that's really cool.

592
00:45:06,110 --> 00:45:13,950
The other way I try to open with the tradesmen and those experts is really a way to level up

593
00:45:13,950 --> 00:45:17,510
and outcompete. I mean, we've mentioned a couple of times, there's thousands of these

594
00:45:17,510 --> 00:45:23,450
HVAC plumbing companies that all offer the same stuff, you know, and they try to get you on their

595
00:45:23,450 --> 00:45:29,130
$200 a year plan so that they'll remind you with a phone call to come change your $15 air filter.

596
00:45:30,090 --> 00:45:34,690
There's not a lot of innovation happening in that space. And so the handful of conversations I've

597
00:45:34,690 --> 00:45:40,150
had with those folks being caught up next to one on an airplane ride home, this guy like installs

598
00:45:40,150 --> 00:45:44,210
heated driveways in Aspen. And I told him about what we were doing. And he was like, dude, this is

599
00:45:44,210 --> 00:46:04,335
awesome So I think it a really cool way to offer a unique new innovative heating solution and we just need to try out this incentive restructuring with the hash rate splits because it very doable right now It not glamorous It not like you know a plumbing heating iPhone app

600
00:46:04,335 --> 00:46:07,055
that money shows up in yet, but we'll get there.

601
00:46:08,295 --> 00:46:10,295
No, I think yet is the most important word there

602
00:46:10,295 --> 00:46:13,855
because as we've been touching on throughout this whole conversation,

603
00:46:13,855 --> 00:46:16,075
like incentives drive everything.

604
00:46:16,475 --> 00:46:20,235
And it would be cool if an application like this

605
00:46:20,235 --> 00:46:28,215
like forced pools to come to market that have the payment splits very intuitively designed and

606
00:46:28,215 --> 00:46:34,695
it's very easy to get set up and start getting paid not that it's hard with

607
00:46:34,695 --> 00:46:38,715
pools that i've connected to as an individual miner but once you start

608
00:46:38,715 --> 00:46:44,595
thinking about um bringing multiple parties into a mining operation that's where things get hairy

609
00:46:44,595 --> 00:46:49,695
and yeah being able to do auto splits and just set it and forget it would be perfect

610
00:46:49,695 --> 00:47:07,695
That would be. It'd be cool to also have a future where the majority of Bitcoin transactions processed on the blockchain are, you know, it's just passively happening in people's heating systems managed by blue collar plumbers and HVAC techs across the globe.

611
00:47:08,115 --> 00:47:18,555
And they don't care about hash price. They don't have a marketing team to pay. They never have to talk to investor relations. These are just sunk cost heating systems that offer them some rebate.

612
00:47:18,555 --> 00:47:22,495
you get some modularity some slick integrations like you just said for payouts

613
00:47:22,495 --> 00:47:28,075
your heater lasts 30 years maybe every five years you upgrade to the newest hash board and kind of

614
00:47:28,075 --> 00:47:36,475
reset the the starting clock for um your rebate and rinse and repeat yeah and as a tradesman or

615
00:47:36,475 --> 00:47:42,815
somebody running a small medium size hvac business like great way to build a bitcoin treasury

616
00:47:42,815 --> 00:47:45,195
if you're willing to take those passive incomes.

617
00:47:46,575 --> 00:47:48,675
Yeah, it's almost the opposite of the pubcos.

618
00:47:50,555 --> 00:47:52,995
One of them said, I forget which one,

619
00:47:53,135 --> 00:47:54,755
I probably shouldn't say even if I did remember.

620
00:47:55,475 --> 00:47:58,135
I was reading one of their public press releases

621
00:47:58,135 --> 00:47:58,935
and it was like,

622
00:48:00,055 --> 00:48:04,055
publicly traded Bitcoin mining is not a capital accretive way

623
00:48:04,055 --> 00:48:05,635
to increase sats per share.

624
00:48:07,135 --> 00:48:08,395
It's capital destructive.

625
00:48:09,335 --> 00:48:10,175
This is that.

626
00:48:10,175 --> 00:48:22,515
I mean, if you can build a heating company that is essentially a mining company with passive hash rate splits with the aligned incentives that doesn't pay the energy bill, that's just sat accretive for all parties.

627
00:48:23,435 --> 00:48:23,535
Yeah.

628
00:48:24,655 --> 00:48:37,435
And that's, I mean, that's, I can go back to this sort of weird era of Bitcoin where the focus seems to be on the financials, the Bitcoinization of finance and public markets specifically.

629
00:48:37,435 --> 00:48:41,475
I wonder if we're all going to learn a hard lesson

630
00:48:41,475 --> 00:48:44,915
in terms of not all of us.

631
00:48:45,035 --> 00:48:48,475
I'm not participating in any publicly traded Bitcoin treasury companies.

632
00:48:48,695 --> 00:48:50,455
A lot of us out there, I'll put myself in the camp,

633
00:48:50,515 --> 00:48:51,455
I'll put the flag up there.

634
00:48:51,595 --> 00:48:54,715
I am skeptical that a lot of these treasury companies

635
00:48:54,715 --> 00:48:55,475
are going to be successful.

636
00:48:55,655 --> 00:48:58,775
It just seems like the left side of the bell curve caveman in me

637
00:48:58,775 --> 00:49:00,255
is like, it's too good to be true.

638
00:49:01,015 --> 00:49:03,715
You need to do the hard work, the proof of work

639
00:49:03,715 --> 00:49:06,515
to actually have a successful business.

640
00:49:06,515 --> 00:49:14,055
and what you're describing what you're working on just intuitively,

641
00:49:14,815 --> 00:49:17,655
viscerally feels like higher signal to me

642
00:49:17,655 --> 00:49:20,715
in terms of building a viable business in the long term.

643
00:49:22,075 --> 00:49:23,255
I'm confident we can do it.

644
00:49:23,735 --> 00:49:24,615
It's going to be awesome.

645
00:49:24,835 --> 00:49:26,255
And people are going to be pumped about it.

646
00:49:26,775 --> 00:49:29,415
You find a way for them to participate if that's their end.

647
00:49:29,875 --> 00:49:32,615
Find a way for them to save on heating bills if that's their end.

648
00:49:32,615 --> 00:49:39,295
find a way for them to reduce their carbon emissions if that's their end screw it i'll play

649
00:49:39,295 --> 00:49:45,615
ball bitcoin's esg it's the most esg uh yeah it's the most esg friendly play you can make

650
00:49:45,615 --> 00:49:50,595
it was funny when i was talking about house rate heating in alaska i went up to juno

651
00:49:50,595 --> 00:49:55,775
and i really was pumped to go because that whole town the capital city of alaska

652
00:49:55,775 --> 00:50:01,095
the whole town is surrounded by glaciers so there's no roads in or out so and they don't

653
00:50:01,095 --> 00:50:05,035
have the natural gas pipeline from mainland Alaska. So the whole town is heated by essentially

654
00:50:05,035 --> 00:50:10,915
diesel and kerosene heating oil. It's $5 a gallon. And the whole town is powered by hydroelectric

655
00:50:10,915 --> 00:50:17,195
power with zero emissions. So all the emissions in that town come from heating systems. And there

656
00:50:17,195 --> 00:50:23,055
was some protesters outside because the congressman was there as a keynote speaker.

657
00:50:23,715 --> 00:50:28,995
And we offered them some tickets. Some of them came in. And some of those protesters that were

658
00:50:28,995 --> 00:50:30,915
very adamant against Bitcoin mining.

659
00:50:31,495 --> 00:50:32,875
I was successful in convincing

660
00:50:32,875 --> 00:50:34,895
one of them that it's actually

661
00:50:34,895 --> 00:50:36,895
just electrocating. And we had a nice conversation

662
00:50:36,895 --> 00:50:37,915
after, which was cool.

663
00:50:38,475 --> 00:50:40,075
Hey, you got to win them over.

664
00:50:40,415 --> 00:50:42,495
Get the crazy environmentalists

665
00:50:42,495 --> 00:50:44,775
on our side. I may not like them,

666
00:50:44,775 --> 00:50:46,915
but they're effective at fear-mongering

667
00:50:46,915 --> 00:50:48,735
people. We should fear-monger people into

668
00:50:48,735 --> 00:50:50,175
using Bitcoin.

669
00:50:50,735 --> 00:50:52,015
Exactly. To eat their houses.

670
00:50:52,715 --> 00:50:53,495
Trojan horse, baby.

671
00:50:54,855 --> 00:50:56,375
You touched on it earlier,

672
00:50:56,655 --> 00:50:58,215
particularly in the context of

673
00:50:58,215 --> 00:51:05,035
proto launching fleet but on the firmware side what doesn't exist today that you would like to

674
00:51:05,035 --> 00:51:15,355
see to make these operations yeah smoother so a couple of things um in the sake for in the case

675
00:51:15,355 --> 00:51:23,755
of micro bt the tuning is too long so traditional heating systems are controlled by turning them on

676
00:51:23,755 --> 00:51:29,515
or off. And that largely has to do with the fact that you can't get like 30% flame. You're either

677
00:51:29,515 --> 00:51:34,155
burning gas or you're not. And so the way you deliver the amount of heat you need is you just

678
00:51:34,155 --> 00:51:37,735
turn it on and off. And if it's on 10 minutes out of the hour, instead of five minutes out of the

679
00:51:37,735 --> 00:51:43,595
hour, you get a different amount of heat to the room. But Bitcoin miners are digital computers.

680
00:51:44,975 --> 00:51:50,235
Like Bitcoin aside, they actually offer a lot of performance benefits. You could say run at 70%

681
00:51:50,235 --> 00:51:56,135
throttle oh it's one degree too hot in here dial back to 65 throttle oh i overshot dial it up two

682
00:51:56,135 --> 00:52:02,215
percent and so you have this resolution this granularity that is an option now because

683
00:52:02,215 --> 00:52:08,015
they're computers but not all the firmers allow for that so um orodyne miners have kind of mastered

684
00:52:08,015 --> 00:52:13,455
this um i i haven't played with it myself but i've seen it in some of the heatpunk telegram chats

685
00:52:13,455 --> 00:52:18,955
and on the forum um and i'm hoping to test one soon but they have quick response within 30 seconds

686
00:52:18,955 --> 00:52:24,235
and they quickly respond to the power because that's your your actual heating target the hash

687
00:52:24,235 --> 00:52:29,215
rate remember is secondary i want the hash rate to tune you know pretty quick so that i'm monetizing

688
00:52:29,215 --> 00:52:33,675
most of my energy consumption as best i can i don't want to take 30 minutes but it doesn't have

689
00:52:33,675 --> 00:52:39,575
to be one second so that's one of them um there's some other things just with control like responding

690
00:52:39,575 --> 00:52:44,935
to temperature so the aftermarket firmware manufacturers like luxor and brains for example

691
00:52:44,935 --> 00:52:52,575
They have a really cool feature called Brain's DPS and Dynamic Performance Scaling, and Luxor has ATM, Automatic Thermal Management.

692
00:52:53,235 --> 00:53:04,615
And it's essentially you can set a temperature on the chip temp, which is a sensor on the hash board, and the miner will ramp up and down in wattage according to the temperature of that sensor.

693
00:53:04,735 --> 00:53:08,535
So you can think of it like a target temperature, which is cool.

694
00:53:08,535 --> 00:53:12,415
the feature was built so that the machines don't kill themselves, right? So if it gets really hot

695
00:53:12,415 --> 00:53:15,895
outside, all of a sudden the machines are overheating, they'll just like walk themselves

696
00:53:15,895 --> 00:53:23,015
down in power. But when I want to heat a room, how you make that work right now to like heat your

697
00:53:23,015 --> 00:53:29,575
living room is you have to interpolate like the difference, the delta. And imagine instead of the

698
00:53:29,575 --> 00:53:34,135
thermostat in the wall in your house that says, I want it 70 degrees in this room, you're commanding

699
00:53:34,135 --> 00:53:40,215
your heater to try and keep it 70 degrees in the room by how close the furnace is to blowing itself

700
00:53:40,215 --> 00:53:44,735
up. That's essentially what that does. The temperature sensor is in the machine, but I want

701
00:53:44,735 --> 00:53:49,195
to measure the temperature in the room. And so a firmware feature to like talk to that, just open

702
00:53:49,195 --> 00:53:54,755
APIs. And, you know, smart thermostats are growing in popularity there in a lot of homes. I know that

703
00:53:54,755 --> 00:53:59,275
Schnitzel at the 256 Foundation is even working on analog input conversion to digital. So you could

704
00:53:59,275 --> 00:54:03,855
have an old Mercury thermostat that just talks straight to the control board, bang, bang, on,

705
00:54:03,855 --> 00:54:12,815
off there's a lot of cool stuff to do that would be crazy yeah and is there a scenario like in the

706
00:54:12,815 --> 00:54:19,915
future where you could have these miners always on you just underclock them to tilt to save with

707
00:54:19,915 --> 00:54:24,975
that ramp up period that you were describing earlier or does that not make sense i think so

708
00:54:24,975 --> 00:54:29,755
um i'm not an electrical engineer and embedded systems guy my understanding is there's like a

709
00:54:29,755 --> 00:54:33,535
lower limit there's a floor just because there's a minimum voltage required to keep these things

710
00:54:33,535 --> 00:54:39,695
like happy um and you can work around that by batching the miners and turning specific chips up

711
00:54:39,695 --> 00:54:43,915
excuse me on or off to kind of have really high resolution there's hundreds of chips on these

712
00:54:43,915 --> 00:54:49,555
things so if you could walk back which ones are on um that is an interesting idea though and what

713
00:54:49,555 --> 00:54:54,935
you're alluding to is you know really just higher performance in your heating demand and in your

714
00:54:54,935 --> 00:54:58,855
heating application which is really cool like i think you're going to have way less temperature

715
00:54:58,855 --> 00:55:02,875
swings in the house like in that sense it's just a better performing heater you're going to feel

716
00:55:02,875 --> 00:55:06,555
more comfortable in your house with a hashrate heater if we can solve these tuning and firmware

717
00:55:06,555 --> 00:55:13,695
problems because right now if your thermostat like i said it turns on and off it turns the flame on

718
00:55:13,695 --> 00:55:19,195
and off and it'll overshoot so if you're commanding 70 when it gets to 69 it won't do anything when it

719
00:55:19,195 --> 00:55:23,135
gets to 68 there's like a two degree swing i'll say oh shit i gotta turn on and then it'll turn

720
00:55:23,135 --> 00:55:27,555
on and then it doesn't turn off at 70 it turns off at like 72 and you're just bouncing between

721
00:55:27,555 --> 00:55:33,495
these two temperatures. Bing bong bong bong. It's called bang bang heating. And a Bitcoin miner with

722
00:55:33,495 --> 00:55:39,495
a smart thermostat in the room should be able to really fine tune that and adjust it, dial it in.

723
00:55:40,895 --> 00:55:47,535
That's an efficiency right there. The cost of turning that net gas flame on and off.

724
00:55:47,755 --> 00:55:52,355
Yes. That adds up. Yeah. And they're even less efficient when they're starting and stopping. It

725
00:55:52,355 --> 00:55:54,515
leads to more wear and tear on the hardware.

726
00:55:55,215 --> 00:55:57,115
Yeah, this is fascinating.

727
00:55:58,735 --> 00:55:59,975
I know it's cool to think about.

728
00:56:00,455 --> 00:56:02,415
I'm really pumped about the open source firmware

729
00:56:02,415 --> 00:56:06,335
just because we're solving for a different problem.

730
00:56:07,135 --> 00:56:10,975
It's fun to see what the megaminers struggle with

731
00:56:10,975 --> 00:56:14,275
because it's led to open source firmware like Proto

732
00:56:14,275 --> 00:56:17,255
coming out with all these software tools like Fleet.

733
00:56:18,395 --> 00:56:20,535
But it's going to be a whole nother can of worms

734
00:56:20,535 --> 00:56:24,115
when we say, actually, this is the intended use case for these machines.

735
00:56:24,295 --> 00:56:25,675
Now let's optimize for that.

736
00:56:26,635 --> 00:56:28,815
Yeah, and that's a business line in and of itself,

737
00:56:29,175 --> 00:56:33,995
potentially for Xergy, where it's like, hey, we'll design, consult,

738
00:56:34,475 --> 00:56:37,335
build the physical hardware, but then on top of that,

739
00:56:37,395 --> 00:56:39,115
we've got the firmware solution.

740
00:56:41,275 --> 00:56:41,715
Yeah.

741
00:56:41,715 --> 00:56:48,875
I mean, my vision really, big picture, is what the term Xergy means.

742
00:56:48,875 --> 00:56:56,795
it's um exergy the the thermodynamic term for me to geek out for a second is like the maximum

743
00:56:56,795 --> 00:57:03,415
amount of utility usefulness or work you can get out of a quantity of energy as it settles with the

744
00:57:03,415 --> 00:57:09,095
environment so as you come to equilibrium what's the most work you can do if you gave me a thousand

745
00:57:09,095 --> 00:57:13,975
pound steel ball like what's the most useful thing i could do with that as it came to balance with

746
00:57:13,975 --> 00:57:20,615
70 degree air. That's what Exergy is. And in that sense, what's the most useful thing I can do

747
00:57:20,615 --> 00:57:28,015
with the sun pounding down on my rooftop? It's capture it, heat my house, store it in batteries,

748
00:57:28,215 --> 00:57:34,015
power all my electronics, live my life, monetize it when I'm heating, monetize it when I have excess.

749
00:57:35,015 --> 00:57:43,875
Yeah. And for each individual doing that, it's a rebate, definitely paying less. But when you

750
00:57:43,875 --> 00:57:47,895
aggregate, if you think of this thing, the system being deployed

751
00:57:47,895 --> 00:57:52,115
at scale, we're talking about tens of billions

752
00:57:52,115 --> 00:57:54,475
of dollars in savings.

753
00:57:55,395 --> 00:57:56,875
United States alone, potentially.

754
00:57:57,515 --> 00:58:01,935
I had that up. I was looking back at my notes from the Alaska

755
00:58:01,935 --> 00:58:05,955
thing, and I was like, what if 300 homes did this in Alaska? That's what I was

756
00:58:05,955 --> 00:58:09,775
pitching it. I think the congressman was in the room. I had my pitch hat on.

757
00:58:09,775 --> 00:58:16,275
And if 300 homes did it, they had this thing that the heating oil is so freaking expensive in Alaska, the diesel heating oil.

758
00:58:16,655 --> 00:58:20,235
And they're so remote that they have this heating assistance program.

759
00:58:20,355 --> 00:58:23,175
The government subsidizes everyone's heating bills.

760
00:58:23,475 --> 00:58:24,755
They pay the utility directly.

761
00:58:25,615 --> 00:58:28,215
And 300 homes would save like $15 million.

762
00:58:29,095 --> 00:58:32,015
That's paid out by the Bitcoin network, not the U.S. government.

763
00:58:33,235 --> 00:58:34,635
So a year.

764
00:58:34,875 --> 00:58:35,515
I mean, it's crazy.

765
00:58:37,735 --> 00:58:39,055
That's $15 million.

766
00:58:39,055 --> 00:58:41,795
that's at 5,000 a house.

767
00:58:42,755 --> 00:58:43,835
Does that sound right?

768
00:58:45,815 --> 00:58:46,215
Probably.

769
00:58:46,655 --> 00:58:47,715
Maybe it's 1.5 million.

770
00:58:47,955 --> 00:58:48,915
I'd have to pull the number up.

771
00:58:49,075 --> 00:58:50,015
But it was 1.5.

772
00:58:52,475 --> 00:58:53,335
It's cool, man.

773
00:58:53,395 --> 00:58:55,895
I mean, I have a friend who's heeding

774
00:58:55,895 --> 00:58:57,915
a United States post office with hashrate heat.

775
00:58:58,015 --> 00:58:59,355
The government doesn't even know they're mining Bitcoin.

776
00:59:01,935 --> 00:59:03,255
This reminds me of my uncle.

777
00:59:03,395 --> 00:59:05,395
He was running Bitcoin miners

778
00:59:05,395 --> 00:59:07,615
at a school he worked at years ago.

779
00:59:08,175 --> 00:59:08,755
Did he get caught?

780
00:59:09,055 --> 00:59:09,655
No.

781
00:59:11,775 --> 00:59:12,335
Yeah.

782
00:59:12,655 --> 00:59:13,855
Nobody come looking for my uncle.

783
00:59:14,835 --> 00:59:15,055
Yeah.

784
00:59:19,755 --> 00:59:21,455
What's the biggest pushback you get?

785
00:59:22,095 --> 00:59:24,315
Because to us it makes a ton of sense.

786
00:59:25,095 --> 00:59:27,695
And like you mentioned many times,

787
00:59:27,695 --> 00:59:31,335
it's a pretty vanilla industry now at this point

788
00:59:31,335 --> 00:59:33,995
with little innovation over the last century

789
00:59:33,995 --> 00:59:36,875
or maybe 30 years for being generous.

790
00:59:36,875 --> 00:59:40,675
and you'd think that if you had somebody who was ambitious

791
00:59:40,675 --> 00:59:43,395
and wanted to really make their mark in the industry,

792
00:59:43,695 --> 00:59:48,655
I don't know if anybody has that intention or goal at the end of the day,

793
00:59:48,735 --> 00:59:52,215
but I'd like to think that no matter what business you're operating in

794
00:59:52,215 --> 00:59:54,055
or what industry you're in, you'd like to leave your mark.

795
00:59:54,235 --> 00:59:55,775
There's a massive opportunity here.

796
00:59:55,775 --> 00:59:56,335
Yeah.

797
00:59:57,535 --> 01:00:01,115
I think the biggest pushback we've received are twofold.

798
01:00:02,055 --> 01:00:05,955
For the energy-minded folks, they say,

799
01:00:05,955 --> 01:00:09,155
why wouldn't I just get a heat pump for people that are kind of familiar how

800
01:00:09,155 --> 01:00:09,955
these systems work.

801
01:00:10,035 --> 01:00:13,655
And a heat pump is kind of like an air conditioner that works in reverse.

802
01:00:13,655 --> 01:00:15,475
So it doesn't actually make heat.

803
01:00:15,515 --> 01:00:18,695
It just moves heat just like an air conditioner moves heat out of your

804
01:00:18,695 --> 01:00:18,995
building.

805
01:00:19,715 --> 01:00:21,535
A heat pump moves heat into your building.

806
01:00:21,535 --> 01:00:22,895
And even when it's cold outside,

807
01:00:23,055 --> 01:00:27,355
there's some energy in the air helps if it's a humid location or it's mild,

808
01:00:27,455 --> 01:00:28,135
not too cold,

809
01:00:28,255 --> 01:00:32,655
not too high altitude because the air is denser at lower altitude and it moves

810
01:00:32,655 --> 01:00:35,075
heat inside with a big refrigerant condenser.

811
01:00:35,075 --> 01:00:41,935
looks like a big coil fan. But my argument against that is they don't really work in

812
01:00:41,935 --> 01:00:48,295
high altitude climates where the air is not dense. It's really cold. Often they have resistive

813
01:00:48,295 --> 01:00:51,815
electric heater backups inside of them. That could be a Bitcoin miner. Maybe that's a product in

814
01:00:51,815 --> 01:00:58,295
itself. And ultimately, like a guy like me, maybe it's other people. I'd prefer an option to also

815
01:00:58,295 --> 01:01:02,955
make heat. I don't want to just be able to move heat inside. I would like the option in my house

816
01:01:02,955 --> 01:01:05,855
to also make it if I need it because it's really freaking cold outside.

817
01:01:06,455 --> 01:01:07,695
But they are super efficient.

818
01:01:08,135 --> 01:01:09,795
They have like 300% efficiency.

819
01:01:09,795 --> 01:01:13,775
So for every watt of power you use to like spin the pump and move the

820
01:01:13,775 --> 01:01:14,795
refrigerant around, you get 300%.

821
01:01:14,832 --> 01:01:19,452
three watts of heat from outside brought into your house. So you can take your electric bill

822
01:01:19,452 --> 01:01:24,052
and like divide it by three. But that only works if it's not too cold out. It's like cold,

823
01:01:24,132 --> 01:01:28,812
but not freezing cold. The other pushback we get is why wouldn't I just buy Bitcoin instead?

824
01:01:29,392 --> 01:01:36,032
Which I get it, like mining hardware is expensive. You can get last generation hardware. I think

825
01:01:36,032 --> 01:01:39,292
there's a big argument for that. I'm a big believer in that, especially for the heating

826
01:01:39,292 --> 01:01:45,672
systems because i'm not sensitive to i'm not trying to run an operation that is profitable

827
01:01:45,672 --> 01:01:50,492
like i'm literally just offsetting a sunk cost so sure i'm going to try to get a pretty efficient

828
01:01:50,492 --> 01:01:55,472
machine because that gives me bigger rebate but it doesn't have to be bleeding edge by any means

829
01:01:55,472 --> 01:01:59,632
i can take to the appreciated hash boards so i know that's why i'm excited about the modular

830
01:01:59,632 --> 01:02:04,692
hash boards um for upgradability of heating systems but the other response i have to the people that

831
01:02:04,692 --> 01:02:08,332
say why don't i just buy bitcoin instead i mean there's a handful of responses there's the non-kyc

832
01:02:08,332 --> 01:02:16,232
angle your your electric utility is your exchange it's kind of a gamified way to stack sats um and

833
01:02:16,232 --> 01:02:19,832
ultimately it's a sunk cost anyways you're going to continue paying for heat you're not going to

834
01:02:19,832 --> 01:02:24,452
stop paying for it i wager that if you went through the whole process saw what you could

835
01:02:24,452 --> 01:02:28,612
say i've got a heat audit figured it out saw that the systems were getting really snazzy your plumber

836
01:02:28,612 --> 01:02:34,492
talked to you about it and then you didn't do it and you were stacking sats another way eventually

837
01:02:34,492 --> 01:02:40,852
you'd come around and you say damn i really wish i had that thing yeah why not both exactly why not

838
01:02:40,852 --> 01:02:47,952
both you can support the network well i think it's important to like to highlight like it seems

839
01:02:47,952 --> 01:02:54,912
pretty clear to me it's not like some altruistic endeavor to help the network even though it

840
01:02:54,912 --> 01:03:07,434
certainly does i think like we were saying earlier incentives are important you can have people just plugging this in altruistically to support the network even though many of us are doing that in different ways

841
01:03:07,574 --> 01:03:11,215
I like to run bid axes and I want to help the network,

842
01:03:11,314 --> 01:03:16,195
but I also want to manifest a solo block mind where I get the full reward.

843
01:03:16,814 --> 01:03:16,934
Totally.

844
01:03:18,434 --> 01:03:21,074
But I think there's an economic case to be made here.

845
01:03:22,255 --> 01:03:23,435
There certainly is.

846
01:03:24,215 --> 01:03:24,894
Big time.

847
01:03:24,894 --> 01:03:30,094
We have a hot spring up in the mountains that we met.

848
01:03:30,454 --> 01:03:34,195
One of the part owners is a Bitcoiner, so that's how we got introduced.

849
01:03:35,155 --> 01:03:40,534
It's a naturally heated pool, 40,000 gallons, kind of like a resort with tiny homes and Airstream campers.

850
01:03:40,594 --> 01:03:41,454
You can take your family there.

851
01:03:42,354 --> 01:03:49,675
And it's naturally geothermally heated, but they want all the pools, all 40,000 gallons, like 100 degrees hot tub temperature, so you can use it.

852
01:03:49,715 --> 01:03:50,974
So they supplement it with propane.

853
01:03:51,454 --> 01:03:53,375
They spend $22,000 a year on propane.

854
01:03:53,375 --> 01:03:59,594
they have 13 cent power we ran the numbers for them their bill would go from 22 grand on propane

855
01:03:59,594 --> 01:04:06,894
to 24 grand a year on electricity and then with those orodyne miners those hydros the a3880s they

856
01:04:06,894 --> 01:04:12,954
need four of them and they would mine 27 000 worth of bitcoin a year not full time that's mapped to

857
01:04:12,954 --> 01:04:17,774
their heat load so i actually looked at when their heat was on and that's like me only saying the

858
01:04:17,774 --> 01:04:22,794
miners on when they're buying heat still make 27 grand a year so i mean that thing's going to pay

859
01:04:22,794 --> 01:04:24,655
itself off in 30 months.

860
01:04:26,595 --> 01:04:29,695
It seems like they'll make three grand a year from that.

861
01:04:30,215 --> 01:04:30,474
Yeah.

862
01:04:30,735 --> 01:04:32,854
Profit from paying 22 grand a year.

863
01:04:32,914 --> 01:04:34,014
They'll be making three grand profit.

864
01:04:34,134 --> 01:04:34,235
Yeah.

865
01:04:34,375 --> 01:04:34,574
Yeah.

866
01:04:36,215 --> 01:04:36,814
It's happening.

867
01:04:37,054 --> 01:04:39,435
We've seen this with the bathhouse in New York.

868
01:04:40,034 --> 01:04:40,354
That's right.

869
01:04:41,354 --> 01:04:56,517
And it funny to see I feel like it was time magazine wrote an article and there was a bunch of other local New York publications deriding them for using Bitcoin mining to heat their pools

870
01:04:56,777 --> 01:04:58,297
And it's like, how do you guys not get this?

871
01:04:58,337 --> 01:05:01,637
It's literally lowering costs and being more efficient with your electricity.

872
01:05:03,317 --> 01:05:04,357
They'll come around.

873
01:05:04,877 --> 01:05:05,317
They will.

874
01:05:05,317 --> 01:05:13,797
what um what can anybody who is listening to this who may have just had their interest peak do

875
01:05:13,797 --> 01:05:21,417
to help what you're doing to get in touch with you to potentially implement what you're working

876
01:05:21,417 --> 01:05:29,457
on into their business or their home totally i appreciate the question we need the data um

877
01:05:29,457 --> 01:05:33,357
i think i've done a good amount of research on these target markets but

878
01:05:33,357 --> 01:05:39,017
just last week we had a guy come to us and tell us his dad's house is heated with old oak logs

879
01:05:39,017 --> 01:05:42,977
in upstate New York. And I was like, dang, I didn't even know people still did that.

880
01:05:43,597 --> 01:05:48,957
And he wanted to know how much he could save. We figured it out for him. So if you want to support

881
01:05:48,957 --> 01:05:54,637
us, check out what we're doing. Our website's exergyheat.com. We offer, they're basically

882
01:05:54,637 --> 01:05:58,417
handholding services right now because the hardware is not there. The software is not there.

883
01:05:58,417 --> 01:06:02,917
It can be done. You saw the system in our building that Marty showed.

884
01:06:03,737 --> 01:06:08,297
But we got a handhold to you. If you need the help, we can help you out, figure out what you need.

885
01:06:08,637 --> 01:06:15,877
It's probably much less than you think and actually help with the installation as well, because we kind of know the lingo and how it translates into tradesman talk.

886
01:06:16,897 --> 01:06:20,117
So that's what we're doing. Our heat audit services. It's not free right now. It's a service fee.

887
01:06:20,557 --> 01:06:25,417
We hope to make that free. I mean, ultimately, if the products are good enough, we shouldn't have to do any handholding.

888
01:06:25,417 --> 01:06:40,760
right like the tradesman will just recommend this stuff because it a win for them and they love installing them because it so easy and it no different except it needs an internet connection And I think we get there But right now we kind of transitioning out of this proof of concept phase

889
01:06:40,959 --> 01:06:42,040
We've done the research.

890
01:06:42,459 --> 01:06:44,239
We have a couple of demo sites coming online.

891
01:06:44,860 --> 01:06:50,700
We are trying to solve commercial right now from a tax and a liability perspective.

892
01:06:51,420 --> 01:06:55,600
And now we just want to date the data and we want to kind of scale up this handholding process.

893
01:06:55,600 --> 01:06:58,040
So if that's something that interests you, check out our website.

894
01:06:58,439 --> 01:07:01,119
Maybe we can do a heat audit for you and get some hash rate in your house.

895
01:07:02,659 --> 01:07:04,480
We'll link to all that in the show notes, Tyler.

896
01:07:05,480 --> 01:07:06,459
Thank you for joining me.

897
01:07:06,760 --> 01:07:09,840
This will be the first of many conversations as you build on XRG.

898
01:07:10,040 --> 01:07:16,019
And this becomes more commonplace, more obvious to people around the United States, around the world,

899
01:07:16,639 --> 01:07:20,820
that we should be using the heat produced by Bitcoin miners to bring down.

900
01:07:20,820 --> 01:07:27,939
not bring down our electricity bills but uh in a way you're gonna pay for the electricity but

901
01:07:27,939 --> 01:07:32,019
you're also gonna get bitcoin you're gonna stack sense whether you like it or not it's a beautiful

902
01:07:32,019 --> 01:07:39,119
thing thanks man great to be with you thank you have fun that's right i know we will we will let

903
01:07:39,119 --> 01:07:43,760
me know if you need some heat i will i will i'm gonna i'm gonna talk to you off air in three

904
01:07:43,760 --> 01:07:49,820
seconds peace and love if you've made it this far i want to thank you for listening and ask you

905
01:07:49,820 --> 01:07:51,079
for a couple things.

906
01:07:51,159 --> 01:07:53,040
Can you subscribe on the platform

907
01:07:53,040 --> 01:07:53,800
that you're listening to?

908
01:07:53,880 --> 01:07:55,579
Maybe give us a rating and a review

909
01:07:55,579 --> 01:07:57,360
that helps the show quite a bit,

910
01:07:57,459 --> 01:07:58,579
whether you're listening on Spotify,

911
01:07:59,139 --> 01:08:00,040
Apple, or Fountain.

912
01:08:00,559 --> 01:08:01,380
Speaking of Fountain,

913
01:08:02,459 --> 01:08:04,139
that is my favorite podcasting app.

914
01:08:04,340 --> 01:08:05,219
If you go over to Fountain,

915
01:08:05,340 --> 01:08:06,579
you can subscribe to the show,

916
01:08:06,659 --> 01:08:07,700
become a paid subscriber

917
01:08:07,700 --> 01:08:08,860
to support the show

918
01:08:08,860 --> 01:08:11,519
and receive these episodes ad-free

919
01:08:11,519 --> 01:08:12,880
in a day early.

920
01:08:13,639 --> 01:08:14,899
Let's go find Fountain

921
01:08:14,899 --> 01:08:16,899
or go to fountain.fm

922
01:08:16,899 --> 01:08:18,399
and become a paid subscriber.