1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:09,920
You've had a dynamic where money has become freer than free.

2
00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:13,040
We talk about a Fed just gone nuts.

3
00:00:13,500 --> 00:00:15,680
All the central banks going nuts.

4
00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:17,880
So it's all acting like safe haven.

5
00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:25,260
I believe that in a world where central bankers are tripping over themselves to devalue their currency, Bitcoin wins.

6
00:00:25,340 --> 00:00:28,480
In the world of fiat currencies, Bitcoin is the victor.

7
00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:31,380
I mean, that's part of the bull case for Bitcoin.

8
00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:34,260
If you're not paying attention, you probably should be.

9
00:00:36,580 --> 00:00:37,840
Fourth turning vibes.

10
00:00:38,260 --> 00:00:43,920
I think that's an apt description of the times we find ourselves in right now.

11
00:00:44,900 --> 00:00:45,520
Yeah, it is.

12
00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:56,180
And I think the biggest difference between what's happening now compared to previous times that you can compare with is

13
00:00:56,180 --> 00:01:00,480
how information is being spread and consumed.

14
00:01:00,940 --> 00:01:03,420
And because back in the day, right,

15
00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:06,320
like this is something that I've been thinking about a lot is

16
00:01:06,320 --> 00:01:09,960
a lot of the reasons why these like old institutions

17
00:01:09,960 --> 00:01:13,600
actually had such a long run before the internet

18
00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:18,640
is because they were leveraging information as a symmetry, right?

19
00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:22,600
You can go all the way back to the church

20
00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:29,160
and they had like the they had the only source of truth right like they were saying i don't know we

21
00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:34,060
know what god wants and if you want access to god you got to go through us right and then

22
00:01:34,060 --> 00:01:41,900
governments had the same thing they were just basically saying no no we know how to control

23
00:01:41,900 --> 00:01:47,140
the currency and like private banks don't know you guys definitely don't know we know and

24
00:01:47,140 --> 00:01:51,500
And all these institutions and our media, like we know the truth.

25
00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:53,100
We are the unbiased ones.

26
00:01:53,220 --> 00:01:56,340
You guys need us to get to the truth and et cetera, et cetera.

27
00:01:56,460 --> 00:02:00,300
So all these institutions have been able to exist for so long because they were leveraging

28
00:02:00,300 --> 00:02:01,960
information and symmetry.

29
00:02:02,100 --> 00:02:04,440
And that's before the internet really happened.

30
00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:08,820
And right now, when we go through the four turning vibes, it's like, whoa, all these

31
00:02:08,820 --> 00:02:13,220
institutions are crumbling up in front of our faces because everybody has access to free

32
00:02:13,220 --> 00:02:14,580
flowing information and truths.

33
00:02:14,580 --> 00:02:27,660
And you see that all that for turning vibes comes from that, I think from that, like, whoa, I didn't know that you guys were so insane, you know, and when when things is transparent.

34
00:02:28,460 --> 00:02:30,540
So it's exciting times.

35
00:02:30,660 --> 00:02:38,340
I mean, yes, the time that repeats in history, but I think it's unique now because of the Internet and the way we consume information.

36
00:02:39,220 --> 00:02:41,040
That's what I was going to bring up.

37
00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:47,040
I mean, I think I've said a couple of times on the show, but I think the the Internet age,

38
00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:51,200
whether it's the fourth turning, the sovereign individual, I think the sovereign individual.

39
00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:57,140
Probably the most prescient description of what's going on now, but everybody talks about like,

40
00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:04,940
oh, it's like the America is like the Roman Empire of modernity and it's going to have a similar downfall.

41
00:03:05,060 --> 00:03:09,160
And I'm like, the Internet is always that that variable in the back of my mind.

42
00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:27,480
I think it changes things moving forward in a way that, yes, there may be some parallels and similarities to civilizations of history, but I think the internet variable changes things moving forward, particularly the speed with which things happen.

43
00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:34,620
yeah and it's not necessarily like a disruptive thing i think all these established institutions

44
00:03:34,620 --> 00:03:42,500
they find a way to kind of like metastasize and and and shape shift um because like i come from

45
00:03:42,500 --> 00:03:46,740
like i started my career in the music industry right and i was working at universal music

46
00:03:46,740 --> 00:03:56,560
as a product product guy um and that was in the mid-aughts late-aughts like 2007 ish

47
00:03:56,560 --> 00:04:01,180
And I grew up in Norway, so I was working at Universal Music Norway.

48
00:04:01,460 --> 00:04:06,820
And in Sweden, the Pirate Bay guys were doing their thing.

49
00:04:06,820 --> 00:04:14,460
And at that time, they were being sued left and right by Hollywood lawyers, music industry lawyers and stuff like that.

50
00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:22,100
And they were kind of attacking the Pirate Bay guys in a way that showed how stupid and ignorant they were.

51
00:04:22,140 --> 00:04:24,960
Because they were like, we've got to shut this site down.

52
00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:29,520
You know, like thinking like, okay, if we shut this website down, that's going to fix it.

53
00:04:30,280 --> 00:04:34,740
So they were like totally, they didn't know how to attack it, right?

54
00:04:34,780 --> 00:04:39,320
And that was in Universal Music, having these conversations with people inside.

55
00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:43,880
You know, I remember these like conference calls that we had with the London headquarters and stuff.

56
00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:54,560
And they were all just focused on destroying, quote unquote, the Pirate Bay instead of like, okay, what about taking a look at this technology and see why is this so successful?

57
00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:57,660
and how can we potentially leverage it?

58
00:04:58,100 --> 00:04:59,880
I tried to say those things like,

59
00:04:59,960 --> 00:05:02,360
hey, we should maybe leverage torrenting

60
00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:06,900
to release like low bit rate singles

61
00:05:06,900 --> 00:05:10,500
or snippets of albums before we released them for real

62
00:05:10,500 --> 00:05:12,020
to get people excited.

63
00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:12,960
And they were like, no, no, no, no.

64
00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:14,340
We got to like shut it down completely.

65
00:05:14,500 --> 00:05:17,440
And then later on, like I rage quitted the industry

66
00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:18,260
as a result of that.

67
00:05:18,260 --> 00:05:22,740
But later I saw that they essentially bend the knee

68
00:05:22,740 --> 00:05:24,840
to the torrenting technology.

69
00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:29,540
And, you know, they allowed Spotify to be built

70
00:05:29,540 --> 00:05:32,980
and then they, you know, Universal and Sony BMG

71
00:05:32,980 --> 00:05:35,440
and all the big four record labels,

72
00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:38,700
they all had like a significant share

73
00:05:38,700 --> 00:05:44,560
in the listing of Spotify when they entered the US market.

74
00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:48,940
So they essentially metastasized into being,

75
00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:51,620
you know, the biggest shareholders of Spotify years later,

76
00:05:51,620 --> 00:05:53,500
just for survival, right?

77
00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:55,420
So we're seeing a lot of these industries

78
00:05:55,420 --> 00:05:57,260
not necessarily being disrupted,

79
00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:02,660
but they're like in the moment right now

80
00:06:02,660 --> 00:06:04,660
trying to desperately find a way to stay relevant.

81
00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:08,280
Yeah, it's actually been following you for years.

82
00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:11,720
On X, some of my favorite commentary of yours

83
00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:13,420
is drawing parallels from your experience

84
00:06:13,420 --> 00:06:14,360
in the music industry,

85
00:06:14,900 --> 00:06:18,360
particularly on how well the music industry

86
00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:23,680
in sort of the entertainment industry more broadly is at marketing and positioning

87
00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:32,720
particular products. But to your point, they may not get the sort of freedom-oriented technologies

88
00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:41,620
that make it easier to access their content. And you've had a lot of very stark criticism for

89
00:06:41,620 --> 00:06:47,260
Bitcoin specifically in how we're positioning this new freedom technology. It's like we need

90
00:06:47,260 --> 00:06:53,800
to combine the good things that Pirate Bay brought to the market

91
00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:57,540
with the good marketing and positioning that things like Hollywood

92
00:06:57,540 --> 00:07:01,280
and the music industry have had for many decades.

93
00:07:02,280 --> 00:07:06,020
Yeah, I think there's two sides of the Bitcoin industry

94
00:07:06,020 --> 00:07:08,200
that I have been the most critical about.

95
00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:17,060
And I feel like I will hopefully soon not have these criticisms anymore

96
00:07:17,060 --> 00:07:21,280
because I do feel like a lot of things are improving.

97
00:07:21,580 --> 00:07:26,340
But I think two sides of the industry is one is the, you know,

98
00:07:26,340 --> 00:07:32,080
if you take the first 10 years of Bitcoin and you take a look at the engineers,

99
00:07:32,940 --> 00:07:37,220
the people building, you know, products for using Bitcoin,

100
00:07:37,220 --> 00:07:42,600
I think it was like not very user-friendly.

101
00:07:43,620 --> 00:07:45,220
Nerds building for nerds.

102
00:07:45,220 --> 00:07:47,680
Autists, building for autists, man, heavy.

103
00:07:48,380 --> 00:07:58,260
And you got to be, yeah, like super, super advanced, man, in order to understand what the hell you're doing with something as simple as, you know, a wallet.

104
00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:03,540
Sending and receiving should be easy, but we made it very complicated.

105
00:08:03,700 --> 00:08:06,380
Obviously, because of, you know, we were thinking of trade-offs.

106
00:08:06,380 --> 00:08:08,280
We want to build something that's secure.

107
00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:15,400
And we have so many examples of, you know, all, you know, all types of protocols being hacked back in the day, right?

108
00:08:15,940 --> 00:08:18,200
All types of smart contracts being hacked left and right.

109
00:08:18,260 --> 00:08:19,440
And we're seeing less of that now.

110
00:08:19,580 --> 00:08:26,720
I think the social engineering is maybe the biggest attack vector right now and not so much like the hacking of stuff, but still.

111
00:08:28,020 --> 00:08:37,280
But then also apart from the horrible UX and the subpar products that, you know, companies in this space were releasing in the first 10 years of Bitcoin.

112
00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:57,360
We also had like this communications problem or this positioning problem where, you know, a lot of people who grok Bitcoin, they feel like, okay, there's like, you know, when you are orange-pilled, I do believe it's a highly personal journey.

113
00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:00,640
I mean, yes, you have access to a community online.

114
00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:05,440
You can go to a conference or 10 and you have, you know, material.

115
00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:12,040
But you are essentially unlearning a lot that you thought was true.

116
00:09:12,380 --> 00:09:14,880
And that's a highly personal experience.

117
00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:16,020
At least it was for me.

118
00:09:16,060 --> 00:09:17,500
And I think a lot of people do.

119
00:09:18,540 --> 00:09:19,580
It resonates with them.

120
00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:25,740
So you got to, like, change your worldview, you know, stuff that you thought were true for many, many years.

121
00:09:25,740 --> 00:09:27,000
You got to flip upside down.

122
00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:31,600
And then you got to learn about, you know, cryptography, computer science.

123
00:09:31,740 --> 00:09:35,560
I mean, at least on the surface level, right, to fully grok Bitcoin.

124
00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:44,480
And then when you do, when it clicks in your head, I think the natural instinct is, oh, shit, the rest of the world needs to hear about this, right?

125
00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:48,340
So you just got to go at the top of the rooftop and yell it out.

126
00:09:48,340 --> 00:09:58,280
But you are essentially going to use the same arguments that convinced you to convince somebody else.

127
00:09:58,680 --> 00:10:00,240
And that somebody else is not you.

128
00:10:00,980 --> 00:10:08,440
So a good marketer or promoter or whatever, they look into the psychology of influence and stuff like that.

129
00:10:08,500 --> 00:10:12,100
And they tap into stuff like, okay, what are you angry about?

130
00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:13,760
What are you concerned about?

131
00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:14,920
What are you fearful about?

132
00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:21,520
these deep emotional triggers and then they try to like create the message around that right because

133
00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:26,900
these are things that will resonate super super quickly and bitcoiners have been kind of like not

134
00:10:26,900 --> 00:10:34,780
doing that and then at the same time the way of doing it is also like bro you don't know you're

135
00:10:34,780 --> 00:10:41,440
wrong bro you need to understand bro this shit is fucked up bro and uh people were just not not

136
00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:46,920
going to listen to that stuff. And then you have these other losers in the shitcoin land that are

137
00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:53,300
like all lovey-dovey, all welcoming and stuff. And they go there faster because, hey, this is a

138
00:10:53,300 --> 00:10:58,640
community that is more open and welcome. And it's kind of like the same thing with politics too.

139
00:10:58,780 --> 00:11:02,840
You know, people aren't ready for the truth, but they want to belong to a community. So they go

140
00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:09,280
where they are, quote unquote, welcomed instead of actually, you know, doing some critical thinking.

141
00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:23,800
So it's the same problem that you see elsewhere as well. And I think individual Bitcoiners have done Bitcoin an extreme disservice, I would say, in terms of like, hey, are we going to really grow adoption here on a global scale?

142
00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:27,380
in that scenario, it's been pretty bad.

143
00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:31,640
But now I think there's just like a lot of interesting companies

144
00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:35,040
that are just creating great products.

145
00:11:35,660 --> 00:11:36,920
They really think about brand.

146
00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:37,700
They think about design.

147
00:11:37,780 --> 00:11:40,080
They think about delightful experience and stuff like that.

148
00:11:40,100 --> 00:11:41,880
And I think through those companies,

149
00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:44,120
I think we have a really bright future.

150
00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:47,720
And I think all the stuff that I've been, you know,

151
00:11:47,980 --> 00:11:51,360
bitching about on X and here for the last two or three minutes

152
00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:59,680
is hopefully a thing of a previous generation or a previous era of bitcoin so who are the

153
00:11:59,680 --> 00:12:04,820
companies that you think are doing it right that you're excited about what do they focus on in

154
00:12:04,820 --> 00:12:15,200
terms of presenting the user top of my mind i think um i think uh square cash app they really

155
00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:21,280
have that like they think about brand design to think about good ux when it comes to the apps

156
00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:25,220
but they also try their best to tap into the culture.

157
00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:31,200
And I think that's something, again, that I look back at, you know,

158
00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:33,260
torrenting and the pirate bay and stuff like that.

159
00:12:33,300 --> 00:12:36,240
It was not only the technology that was awesome, obviously,

160
00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:43,180
but the outcome of that technology was like somebody in Sri Lanka could now

161
00:12:43,180 --> 00:12:49,140
download, I don't know, above the rim and see Tupac

162
00:12:49,140 --> 00:12:51,900
and maybe download the soundtrack and tap into the culture.

163
00:12:52,420 --> 00:12:58,420
So it's like technologies that come with like this underlying cultural movement underneath.

164
00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:03,180
That's like a fucking, that's an explosion waiting to happen, right?

165
00:13:03,180 --> 00:13:04,860
Those are like super impactful stuff.

166
00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:12,300
And I think that's what Square and Cash App and all those people are trying to do at that level, right?

167
00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:15,860
Like Jack Dorsey wearing a Satoshi Nakamoto t-shirt at the Super Bowl,

168
00:13:15,860 --> 00:13:22,560
trying to converge the mainstream world with our world in a cool way. I think that's a good

169
00:13:22,560 --> 00:13:27,540
example of a company that's doing it well. What's up, Freaks? Up next, the Bitcoin Scaling Conference

170
00:13:27,540 --> 00:13:31,340
where Bitcoin developers meet institutional capital is coming to New York next month.

171
00:13:31,340 --> 00:13:35,680
Join Bitcoiners from Blockstream, Chaincode, Brink, and more at the Can't Miss Summit at the

172
00:13:35,680 --> 00:13:39,640
intersection of Bitcoin tech and finance. This conference has one of the best signal-to-noise

173
00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:44,540
ratios, and that's why I'll be joining BlockSpace's third annual Bitcoin tech conference on April 16th

174
00:13:44,540 --> 00:13:46,880
at the New York Times Center in Midtown Manhattan.

175
00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:48,460
There's only room for 200 attendees,

176
00:13:48,940 --> 00:13:50,720
and they've already sold more than 100 tickets

177
00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:51,780
of their open spots.

178
00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:53,100
So you've only got a few weeks

179
00:13:53,100 --> 00:13:54,740
to get your travel plans in order for New York.

180
00:13:55,020 --> 00:13:56,080
With the ticket, you get access

181
00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:57,640
to the best programming in Bitcoin tech,

182
00:13:57,740 --> 00:13:59,960
from BitVM to BitChat, catered lunch,

183
00:14:00,140 --> 00:14:01,820
and access to the PubKey afterparty.

184
00:14:02,300 --> 00:14:03,500
Wearing the hat, PubKey afterparty.

185
00:14:03,860 --> 00:14:05,260
Up next is where builders meet capital,

186
00:14:05,660 --> 00:14:07,660
founders find funding, and companies source top talent,

187
00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:09,840
plus meet institutional investors and developers

188
00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:11,740
from BlackRock, H.C. Wainwright,

189
00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:13,740
and Bitcoin Infrastructure Corp.

190
00:14:13,740 --> 00:14:21,300
If you're at a venture fund or another finance firm, this is the event to learn more about the quantum computing, leading edge Bitcoin tech and topics that will define Bitcoin's futures.

191
00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:28,600
Go to opnext.dev for tickets and use the code TFTC to get 25% off a general admission or VIP ticket to the event.

192
00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:33,340
Again, that's opnext.dev, code TFTC for 25% off a ticket.

193
00:14:33,620 --> 00:14:34,140
I'll see you there.

194
00:14:34,380 --> 00:14:34,860
Sup, Freaks.

195
00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:37,740
This rip of TFTC was brought to you by our good friends at BitKey.

196
00:14:38,020 --> 00:14:41,080
BitKey makes Bitcoin easy to use and hard to lose.

197
00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:45,480
It is a hardware wallet that natively embeds into a two or three multi-sig.

198
00:14:45,580 --> 00:14:50,940
You have one key on the hardware wallet, one key on your mobile device, and Block stores

199
00:14:50,940 --> 00:14:52,360
a key in the cloud for you.

200
00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:57,060
This is an incredible hardware device for your friends and family, or maybe yourself

201
00:14:57,060 --> 00:15:02,260
who have Bitcoin on exchanges and have for a long time, but haven't taken a step to self-custody

202
00:15:02,260 --> 00:15:06,520
because they're worried about the complications of setting up a private public key pair, securing

203
00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:09,260
that seed phrase, setting up a pin, setting up a passphrase.

204
00:15:09,260 --> 00:15:12,080
Again, BitKey makes it easy to use, hard to lose.

205
00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:14,080
It's the easiest zero to one step,

206
00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:16,060
your first step to self-custody.

207
00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:17,860
If you have friends and family on the exchanges

208
00:15:17,860 --> 00:15:19,820
who haven't moved it off, tell them to pick up a BitKey.

209
00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:23,100
Go to BitKey.world, use the key TFTC20

210
00:15:23,100 --> 00:15:25,460
at checkout for 20% off your order.

211
00:15:25,940 --> 00:15:28,580
That's BitKey.world, code TFTC20.

212
00:15:28,940 --> 00:15:30,020
It's hard too, right?

213
00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:31,320
Because like, as you mentioned earlier,

214
00:15:31,420 --> 00:15:32,800
like we're dealing with this

215
00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:36,620
nation emergent protocol

216
00:15:36,620 --> 00:15:41,620
that has new ways of, I mean, the way the protocol works,

217
00:15:41,700 --> 00:15:44,000
it's just people are going to be interacting with technology

218
00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:45,740
in ways that they haven't before.

219
00:15:46,060 --> 00:15:49,620
I think if I were to try to articulate

220
00:15:49,620 --> 00:15:50,680
what you were describing earlier,

221
00:15:50,820 --> 00:15:53,020
like autist building for autists, like first 10 years,

222
00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:57,700
I think it was hyper-focused on making sure

223
00:15:57,700 --> 00:15:59,540
that everybody understood like,

224
00:15:59,540 --> 00:16:02,140
hey, this is what you're dealing with here.

225
00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:06,360
It's a distributed system that uses private public key pairs

226
00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:09,640
and you need to understand how all this stuff works.

227
00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:14,620
I think that's I mean, just that self custody alone is one of the biggest turn offs for a lot of people

228
00:16:14,620 --> 00:16:16,680
because you're like, all right, here's the best money ever.

229
00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:19,820
Oh, by the way, like you need to secure yourself.

230
00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:22,920
And if you lose these 12 words, you lose your money forever.

231
00:16:23,380 --> 00:16:26,360
It's just like people are like, well, that's a bit risky.

232
00:16:26,940 --> 00:16:27,140
Yeah.

233
00:16:28,660 --> 00:16:29,300
And it's.

234
00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:35,860
And so what do you like what on top of the protocol do you think has made this easier?

235
00:16:35,860 --> 00:16:48,500
I think of something like LN address, just being able to send somebody like, hey, Marty at strike.me, if you want to send me money, just find a compatible wallet, send it there.

236
00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:49,780
That's another thing.

237
00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:51,060
It's like, what is a compatible wallet?

238
00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:56,760
We're getting into all these UX issues, standardization issues that emerge too.

239
00:16:56,920 --> 00:17:01,920
But to your point, I do think we're definitely getting better at it as time goes on.

240
00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:06,500
But I think the time is of the essence here, right?

241
00:17:06,900 --> 00:17:15,760
I think considering everything going on in the world, the fourth turning vibes that we started the conversation with, I truly believe in what I have been doing.

242
00:17:16,120 --> 00:17:22,440
What I've been doing for the last nine years is to educate people and try to get Bitcoin into as many hands as possible.

243
00:17:23,300 --> 00:17:27,120
And through the nine years I've been doing it professionally and 13 years I've been in Bitcoin.

244
00:17:27,120 --> 00:17:43,028
The environment has never been more ripe for Bitcoin adoption in terms of people needing a solution like Bitcoin Oh yeah no 100 And also let me let me thank you as well for being part of my own journey

245
00:17:43,028 --> 00:17:53,688
I remember like when I was looking back at the DMs on X and it was like something from like 2019 or something was was there.

246
00:17:53,688 --> 00:17:59,148
And I mentioned something about listening to a pod with you and Alex Leishman.

247
00:17:59,148 --> 00:18:19,488
And there was like a, there was a, I don't know, three minute segment where you were talking about Virginia and like the new England and how the economies became, you know, like circular economies and these like, you know, Virginia and the new colonies emerged.

248
00:18:19,488 --> 00:18:24,048
and that inspired me to write a blog post about it and i sent it to you and you were like yeah

249
00:18:24,048 --> 00:18:30,148
great cool and i sent it to park lewis i sent it to leishman and everybody was super super friendly

250
00:18:30,148 --> 00:18:35,248
and they gave me feedback on the article that nobody read except from maybe you leishman and

251
00:18:35,248 --> 00:18:40,948
and park lewis and five other uh crazy ones that were following me back then but you know that has

252
00:18:40,948 --> 00:18:50,588
been instrumental to my uh personal journey so thank you but i think uh in 2019 that that same

253
00:18:50,588 --> 00:18:57,048
i had that same fear you know um and it's only been intensifying in the in the in the seven

254
00:18:57,048 --> 00:19:03,368
years that has passed but one thing i do want to say which you know i don't want to be like super

255
00:19:03,368 --> 00:19:09,648
negative on this episode but like i i don't think like you know the bitcoin is not for everyone but

256
00:19:09,648 --> 00:19:16,408
is for anyone. I truly, truly believe in that because I'm from Argentina and you would think

257
00:19:16,408 --> 00:19:22,388
that in Argentina, Bitcoin would be a no brainer for the entire country. Everybody has been going

258
00:19:22,388 --> 00:19:32,348
through insane debasement. My family emigrated from Argentina because of a hyperinflationary

259
00:19:32,348 --> 00:19:38,208
dumpster fire in 89. I told you about that. And then another crazy one happened in 2001.

260
00:19:38,208 --> 00:19:59,288
So it has like this, Argentina has gone through this like chronic disease of inflation and no other country than Argentina, perhaps maybe other five, Nigeria even as well, Turkey, Lebanon, maybe Iran, have seen how just inflation, how that tears the social fabric apart.

261
00:19:59,808 --> 00:20:06,588
Having families, having to go outside of the country, leaving their families behind just to get a job and send money back.

262
00:20:06,588 --> 00:20:12,828
and you would think hey bitcoin hey you can remittances over lightning all of that is is a

263
00:20:12,828 --> 00:20:19,328
it's a godsend right to uh to uh to people in countries like argentina and still ethereum is

264
00:20:19,328 --> 00:20:25,608
the biggest it's the biggest community uh it has the most traction in argentina so just because

265
00:20:25,608 --> 00:20:31,948
us bitcoiners think that okay these people would be open to bitcoin still doesn't mean that they

266
00:20:31,948 --> 00:20:39,448
will get it uh you can give them the the the bitcoin standard uh to read uh you can you can

267
00:20:39,448 --> 00:20:46,308
give them 100 podcast episodes people just still won't get it so i think we should be okay with just

268
00:20:46,308 --> 00:20:52,548
hey there's a bunch of people that will never ever get it and let's not even think about those people

269
00:20:52,548 --> 00:20:59,048
and then try to tap into the cohorts around the world that might need bitcoin for very different

270
00:20:59,048 --> 00:21:04,208
reasons. And this is also related to the information asymmetry that we're going through

271
00:21:04,208 --> 00:21:10,268
right now, because you would think the abundance of information would make more people understand

272
00:21:10,268 --> 00:21:16,548
Bitcoin more. The reality is there's so much noise. There's so much like low signal out there

273
00:21:16,548 --> 00:21:23,448
among the noise that somebody who has to work two or three jobs because of inflation to keep,

274
00:21:23,448 --> 00:21:29,508
you know, food on the table, don't have time to, to get into deep into anything.

275
00:21:29,628 --> 00:21:33,468
So they, you know, you have heard, and you've probably met, you know,

276
00:21:33,528 --> 00:21:37,648
hundreds of Uber drivers who are just like Shiba Inu maxis,

277
00:21:37,768 --> 00:21:43,148
but they think Bitcoin is, uh, is, uh, whatever old tech is because they read,

278
00:21:43,248 --> 00:21:45,768
they barely read anything. So, um,

279
00:21:46,088 --> 00:21:52,528
pockets of the internet will now be in different cohorts online.

280
00:21:52,528 --> 00:21:56,008
consuming very different content.

281
00:21:56,528 --> 00:21:59,148
And we just need to try to tap into those cohorts,

282
00:21:59,468 --> 00:22:02,188
those pockets online and try to speak the language

283
00:22:02,188 --> 00:22:04,588
in order for adoption to grow.

284
00:22:04,748 --> 00:22:07,028
Because it's not going to be mass adoption anymore,

285
00:22:07,088 --> 00:22:07,628
in my opinion.

286
00:22:07,848 --> 00:22:09,848
We're beyond that.

287
00:22:09,888 --> 00:22:11,728
It's going to be a fragmented adoption

288
00:22:11,728 --> 00:22:14,268
that is going to look very insane and weird.

289
00:22:14,808 --> 00:22:18,228
But it's not going to be like one big movement

290
00:22:18,228 --> 00:22:23,128
that kind of brings a critical mass into our world.

291
00:22:23,168 --> 00:22:25,208
It's going to be choppy, I think.

292
00:22:25,928 --> 00:22:27,948
Is this something you're trying to solve, a perception?

293
00:22:29,228 --> 00:22:30,568
Yeah, I am.

294
00:22:30,568 --> 00:22:34,808
I think for people who are in the industry,

295
00:22:35,528 --> 00:22:38,728
who want to keep up with what is happening,

296
00:22:38,928 --> 00:22:41,708
yeah, you can't rely on logging into X anymore

297
00:22:41,708 --> 00:22:49,128
or, I don't know, reading one or two websites a day in your morning

298
00:22:49,128 --> 00:22:50,168
with your morning coffee.

299
00:22:51,048 --> 00:22:57,668
There's things happening 360 degree, 24-7, nonstop from all regions of the world

300
00:22:57,668 --> 00:22:58,848
at any given time.

301
00:22:59,348 --> 00:23:01,868
And manually keeping up with that is impossible.

302
00:23:02,868 --> 00:23:11,228
So if you consume content, if you try to educate yourself the old school way,

303
00:23:11,228 --> 00:23:15,908
you're going to have a very rough time because you're going to be you're going to be beaten by

304
00:23:15,908 --> 00:23:24,808
somebody who uses something like perception that just is able to gather 650 plus sources all at

305
00:23:24,808 --> 00:23:30,288
the same time and can can create can do pattern detection automatically in a second instead of

306
00:23:30,288 --> 00:23:35,728
you trying to do that on yourself having 70 tabs open in your browser at the same time so

307
00:23:35,728 --> 00:23:40,788
yeah i'm solving that with perception for the people who want to accelerate who want to

308
00:23:41,228 --> 00:23:47,028
get to you know what's really happening and what are like the trend clustering all around the world

309
00:23:47,028 --> 00:23:53,028
faster than uh than their competitors so still in beta we can talk about perception a little bit

310
00:23:53,028 --> 00:23:57,688
more but we're still in beta and already have i already have institutional clients already and i

311
00:23:57,688 --> 00:24:04,288
think the the reception has been pretty good i'm super bullish on on that and uh i do think that

312
00:24:04,288 --> 00:24:11,128
is kind of like how we are how we need in order to survive in the like knowledge worker uh industry

313
00:24:11,128 --> 00:24:17,808
the way we process data and the way we uh add context to that data is going to be incredibly

314
00:24:17,808 --> 00:24:24,608
important for like job security for your company to stay alive for for yeah uh for not becoming

315
00:24:24,608 --> 00:24:31,208
part of the permanent underclass well that's i mean i'm sure if you've been listening and

316
00:24:31,208 --> 00:24:38,768
reading my tweets and newsletters like i'm incredibly bullish on ai um just as a

317
00:24:38,768 --> 00:24:43,408
productivity booster for small teams like ours here at TFTC.

318
00:24:43,748 --> 00:24:47,648
And that's how I viewed it over the last few years specifically.

319
00:24:47,928 --> 00:24:50,628
Like we started really leaning in

320
00:24:50,628 --> 00:24:54,708
about two years ago and automating some

321
00:24:54,708 --> 00:24:57,868
backend processes with AI tools. And obviously they've gotten

322
00:24:57,868 --> 00:25:02,668
exponentially better as time's gone on and it's allowed us to do more.

323
00:25:02,668 --> 00:25:06,128
So like combination of like storytelling via AI generated

324
00:25:06,128 --> 00:25:13,148
videos telling the story of jackal island the story of getting ripped off the gold standard

325
00:25:13,148 --> 00:25:20,008
a bunch of other stories but then on top of that like we can put out more content now like we have

326
00:25:20,008 --> 00:25:25,228
this five day week bitcoin brief newsletter that we've gotten back to and it's all been enabled by

327
00:25:25,228 --> 00:25:31,548
ai and tier points like curating and surfacing signal that's what um we've been trying to do

328
00:25:31,548 --> 00:25:35,088
with the Bitcoin brief and feedback's been good,

329
00:25:35,088 --> 00:25:38,008
but I think AI is a double-edged sword.

330
00:25:38,008 --> 00:25:43,008
You can get consumed by slop and the tsunami of noise

331
00:25:44,868 --> 00:25:46,768
that's gonna be produced using these tools,

332
00:25:46,768 --> 00:25:48,888
but if you leverage them the right way,

333
00:25:48,888 --> 00:25:51,228
you can serve as a ton of signal as well.

334
00:25:51,228 --> 00:25:54,168
Yeah, that's why when I created Perception,

335
00:25:54,168 --> 00:25:56,868
it was more, like the reason I created Perception

336
00:25:56,868 --> 00:25:58,788
was because when I was working at Blockstream,

337
00:25:58,788 --> 00:26:01,228
I used to be the VP of marketing and communication

338
00:26:01,228 --> 00:26:02,128
for people who don't know me.

339
00:26:02,868 --> 00:26:05,528
And we were like using traditional tools

340
00:26:05,528 --> 00:26:07,168
that were like monitoring,

341
00:26:07,408 --> 00:26:08,808
you know, social media monitoring,

342
00:26:08,948 --> 00:26:09,908
media monitoring, whatever.

343
00:26:10,788 --> 00:26:13,128
And just to see, okay, how are we doing?

344
00:26:13,288 --> 00:26:16,108
How are like technologies being discussed online

345
00:26:16,108 --> 00:26:17,948
and, you know, competitors and stuff like that.

346
00:26:18,808 --> 00:26:21,868
And, you know, what these tools resurfaced

347
00:26:21,868 --> 00:26:23,188
was just everything.

348
00:26:23,608 --> 00:26:26,128
So I was like, oh shit, on Tuesday,

349
00:26:26,248 --> 00:26:28,928
we got this 72% increase in mentions.

350
00:26:29,388 --> 00:26:30,368
Let's see what that is all about.

351
00:26:30,368 --> 00:26:37,628
And I log in and I see just pure, pure dribble, you know, like just casino links and scammers and all kinds of bullshit.

352
00:26:38,248 --> 00:26:45,448
So these tools that supposedly are tracking the internet for you, yeah, they track everything.

353
00:26:46,048 --> 00:26:56,428
And with, like I said, with the AI slop, with grifters, with spammers, with all that stuff happening, not only on X, but just everywhere, you can't rely on these metrics at all.

354
00:26:56,708 --> 00:26:58,628
You can't even rely on them directionally.

355
00:26:58,628 --> 00:26:59,788
It's all fake.

356
00:27:00,368 --> 00:27:04,848
So I was like, okay, we need to build our own system.

357
00:27:06,248 --> 00:27:08,028
And I started doing that.

358
00:27:08,108 --> 00:27:10,548
And then I was like, oh, the data that comes back is pretty interesting.

359
00:27:10,868 --> 00:27:13,988
Let me create a newsletter showing some interesting stuff.

360
00:27:14,128 --> 00:27:16,468
That was mostly based on mainstream media.

361
00:27:16,848 --> 00:27:22,488
And essentially, that was well-received because I was essentially just quantifying what people already knew.

362
00:27:22,588 --> 00:27:23,708
Yeah, mainstream media sucks.

363
00:27:24,168 --> 00:27:25,288
And here's why.

364
00:27:25,288 --> 00:27:32,588
but now you know as i added more sources it's it's completely different and i really see the

365
00:27:32,588 --> 00:27:38,168
value of a platform like perception but during that process i was like yeah i can't fuck this up

366
00:27:38,168 --> 00:27:42,948
i really need to be super careful about what i actually include what kind of data comes in

367
00:27:42,948 --> 00:27:47,048
because that's the trap you know you want to like bring in everything but then you bring in

368
00:27:47,048 --> 00:27:53,268
all the bullshit and uh in order to provide a lot of data that is you know that has enough

369
00:27:53,268 --> 00:27:58,368
volume to really tell you, hey, these are the trends, this is the sentiment, and this is

370
00:27:58,368 --> 00:28:03,928
actually the public perception of X, Y, and Z, you need to curate that a lot. So I think me

371
00:28:03,928 --> 00:28:10,908
coming from the industry and knowing who's who and what's what, I think that's another strength

372
00:28:10,908 --> 00:28:16,308
for perception to actually be a valuable tool in the future. But you're totally right. And

373
00:28:16,308 --> 00:28:23,168
I think what you did with AI video in particular, it was absolutely insane. I mean,

374
00:28:23,168 --> 00:28:29,768
you pioneered that shit like that jackal island video was absolutely insane and that was towards

375
00:28:29,768 --> 00:28:36,088
my my last uh my last uh you know uh period at blog stream and we were discussing that internally

376
00:28:36,088 --> 00:28:42,668
we were like yeah we fucked up here because these this this team is a small media team we're like a

377
00:28:42,668 --> 00:28:47,648
big company and they beat us to it and look look at what they're doing they're absolutely killing

378
00:28:47,648 --> 00:28:52,128
it and i think that's a one example of many examples of just like people who are like hyper

379
00:28:52,128 --> 00:28:58,848
focused on something, they just edge out compared to a bigger, New York case, bigger media outlets,

380
00:28:58,948 --> 00:29:02,928
right? So freaks right now, someone with less capital than you is building a better Bitcoin

381
00:29:02,928 --> 00:29:06,648
position than you are. They're not smarter. They're not luckier. They're just using this

382
00:29:06,648 --> 00:29:11,108
downturn differently. The small minority will quietly make moves that matter. And Unchained

383
00:29:11,108 --> 00:29:15,188
wrote a field guide for that small minority. It's called 21 Moves to Make in the Downturn.

384
00:29:15,548 --> 00:29:18,808
Inside, you'll learn how to orient your thinking around Bitcoin's long-term properties,

385
00:29:18,808 --> 00:29:23,328
the common psychological traps that surface during market downturns, practical accumulation

386
00:29:23,328 --> 00:29:27,408
strategies, and ways to optimize your savings, retirement accounts, and idle capital.

387
00:29:27,828 --> 00:29:33,188
If you plan to use this downturn instead of watching it pass, go download it at unchained.com

388
00:29:33,188 --> 00:29:36,988
slash tftc. That's unchained.com slash tftc.

389
00:29:37,068 --> 00:29:40,308
What's up, freaks? This rep was brought to you by good friends at Silent. Silent creates everyday

390
00:29:40,308 --> 00:29:44,488
Faraday gear that protects your hardware. We're in Bitcoin. We have a lot of hardware that we need

391
00:29:44,488 --> 00:29:49,788
to secure your wallet amid signals that can leave you vulnerable. You want to pick up silence gear,

392
00:29:49,928 --> 00:29:54,408
put your hardware in that. I have a tap signer right here. I got the silent card holder replaced

393
00:29:54,408 --> 00:29:59,148
my wallet. I was using Ridge wallet because it secured against RFID signal jacking. Silent,

394
00:29:59,408 --> 00:30:03,828
the card holder does the same thing. It's much sleeker, fits in my pocket much easier. I also have

395
00:30:03,828 --> 00:30:07,508
the Faraday phone sleeve, which you can put a hardware wallet in. We're actually using it for

396
00:30:07,508 --> 00:30:10,568
our keys at the house too. There's been a lot of robberies. They have essential Faraday slings,

397
00:30:10,568 --> 00:30:15,068
Faraday Backpacks. It's a Bitcoin company. They're running on a Bitcoin standard. They have a Bitcoin

398
00:30:15,068 --> 00:30:21,888
treasury. They accept Bitcoin via strike. So go to slnt.com slash TFTC to get 15% off anything or

399
00:30:21,888 --> 00:30:27,748
simply just use the code TFTC when shopping at slnt.com. Patented technology, special operations

400
00:30:27,748 --> 00:30:31,588
approved. It has free shipping as well. So go check it out. Thank you. Number one. But number

401
00:30:31,588 --> 00:30:35,628
two, it goes to your point of what you're just describing, building perception. You have

402
00:30:35,628 --> 00:30:42,248
a ton of context, personal context of like where the signal is in the space. And similarly,

403
00:30:42,248 --> 00:30:48,128
like that's like I've been building my Bitcoin Twitter list since 2012, I think, or 2013.

404
00:30:49,268 --> 00:30:58,488
And I just I mean, just from pure observation over 13, 14 years, like I've developed these

405
00:30:58,488 --> 00:31:06,028
pattern recognition techniques uh with my human brain um to to then be able to curate via

406
00:31:06,028 --> 00:31:11,208
these ai tools and it seems like you're doing the same thing to your point that's going to be the

407
00:31:11,208 --> 00:31:18,328
edge moving forward is curation and taste i strongly believe that and i think in the realm

408
00:31:18,328 --> 00:31:25,588
of building ai products particularly with a focus on data surfacing like you need that that sort of

409
00:31:25,588 --> 00:31:28,028
pattern recognition, that experience, that time in the market.

410
00:31:28,228 --> 00:31:35,068
You're not like some startup out of YC is going to be like, OK, we need better Bitcoin

411
00:31:35,068 --> 00:31:36,048
sentiment tools.

412
00:31:36,048 --> 00:31:37,168
So we're going to build that.

413
00:31:37,388 --> 00:31:42,368
Like if you haven't been in the space for a while and you don't know the different actors

414
00:31:42,368 --> 00:31:47,608
and the history of who's been right and who's been wrong over the course of many years,

415
00:31:47,608 --> 00:31:49,568
it's going to be hard to do that from scratch.

416
00:31:50,808 --> 00:31:51,208
Yeah, totally.

417
00:31:51,208 --> 00:32:06,508
And now we are really like in that top of the wave, I think, where we either fall off the surfboard or we actually ride the wave to the end where we are confronted with so much information.

418
00:32:07,028 --> 00:32:08,648
And how do we make sense of it?

419
00:32:09,108 --> 00:32:14,028
And as a professional working industry, you're not going to do that manually.

420
00:32:14,028 --> 00:32:19,708
But then for us who build tools around that, yeah, we're kind of like we're doing it now.

421
00:32:19,708 --> 00:32:25,848
but I'm very curious to see how like information in general is going to look like in a year from now

422
00:32:25,848 --> 00:32:30,708
two years from now three years from now it's going to be something we need to tweak and adjust

423
00:32:30,708 --> 00:32:38,428
really fast and be super nimble I think because listen perception has been in beta for six months

424
00:32:38,428 --> 00:32:43,888
I quit blog stream six months ago so it's not even been a year half a year and what I

425
00:32:43,888 --> 00:32:48,428
when I exited and I announced me leaving and I was like, Hey,

426
00:32:48,528 --> 00:32:51,528
this is now available for beta. Um,

427
00:32:51,888 --> 00:32:55,568
that product doesn't exist anymore. Um, that was like a, yeah,

428
00:32:55,568 --> 00:33:00,768
like a tracking tool. You log in, uh, through a dashboard. Um,

429
00:33:01,128 --> 00:33:06,448
and then you kind of like create charts and you can create like a spaces where

430
00:33:06,448 --> 00:33:10,288
you can like drag stuff from a cluster into a sheet.

431
00:33:10,288 --> 00:33:13,808
and then you can kind of like run some analysis models on it.

432
00:33:14,708 --> 00:33:17,368
That stuff is like completely commoditized right now.

433
00:33:17,568 --> 00:33:20,708
Like I think people just create whatever app they need

434
00:33:20,708 --> 00:33:22,428
for a very, very specific thing

435
00:33:22,428 --> 00:33:25,248
that for anybody else building a business around it,

436
00:33:25,308 --> 00:33:28,148
it's too niche to actually make viable as a business.

437
00:33:28,508 --> 00:33:30,528
But for one person who needs something quick

438
00:33:30,528 --> 00:33:33,868
that is very, very specific, they can build it themselves.

439
00:33:34,788 --> 00:33:38,288
So apps and front ends and UIs

440
00:33:38,288 --> 00:33:40,408
is just completely commoditized.

441
00:33:41,168 --> 00:33:44,468
So the data is the only competitive mode

442
00:33:44,468 --> 00:33:46,548
that we have at least for the next

443
00:33:46,548 --> 00:33:48,328
maybe 12 to 18 months.

444
00:33:49,088 --> 00:33:52,348
And it's about what you do with that data.

445
00:33:52,768 --> 00:33:54,188
Because in Perception's case,

446
00:33:54,608 --> 00:33:55,808
it's a curated feed,

447
00:33:56,348 --> 00:33:59,208
but it's a critical mass volume,

448
00:33:59,428 --> 00:34:00,628
but it's very curated.

449
00:34:00,748 --> 00:34:03,308
I'm very careful about which Twitter account

450
00:34:03,308 --> 00:34:04,908
goes into the database,

451
00:34:05,328 --> 00:34:06,368
what tweets go in.

452
00:34:06,368 --> 00:34:13,468
and then I do the trend analysis then I do you know analysis of earnings calls to see whether

453
00:34:13,468 --> 00:34:19,948
leadership is evasive or not I grade them I take the questions that they're being asked and are they

454
00:34:19,948 --> 00:34:25,508
evasive or not and then I do like I run the alpha of the stock price versus the evasiveness versus

455
00:34:25,508 --> 00:34:30,088
BTC price so it's a lot of stuff like you need to know you need to kind of be part of the industry

456
00:34:30,088 --> 00:34:34,208
to know hey this is something that is unique that people really want and then offer it to them

457
00:34:34,208 --> 00:34:44,368
But that's like in the five months that I've been doing this, I had to toss away an app and just put all that data and all that analysis through LLMs.

458
00:34:44,648 --> 00:34:47,508
So now perception is the data.

459
00:34:47,828 --> 00:34:53,908
It's the narrative intelligence, but you can access it directly on ChatGPT, on Clogger, Google Gemini.

460
00:34:54,088 --> 00:34:57,208
And people are like, whoa, that's interesting.

461
00:34:57,708 --> 00:34:59,768
So now I do way more demos.

462
00:35:00,408 --> 00:35:02,788
Prospects are actually, you know, super engaged.

463
00:35:02,788 --> 00:35:07,788
and my users are upgrading, they don't turn.

464
00:35:08,028 --> 00:35:09,808
Because all of these people,

465
00:35:09,808 --> 00:35:24,236
they are already using these AI tools and just plugging perception into that They know it really powerful and impactful because if you try to do the same with the native intelligence that Claude and ChatGPT or Perplexity has

466
00:35:24,996 --> 00:35:27,036
it's going to be surface level still.

467
00:35:27,656 --> 00:35:32,156
There's the depth of data, the niche, and then where I plug it into,

468
00:35:32,276 --> 00:35:34,156
that is kind of like the competitive mode right now.

469
00:35:34,156 --> 00:35:37,776
But who knows in six months how this whole thing is going to change.

470
00:35:37,916 --> 00:35:39,536
So it's a crazy time to be alive.

471
00:35:39,976 --> 00:35:50,356
Right. No, I think you're you make the quick pivot to just direct injection looks like via plug in or like APIs.

472
00:35:50,356 --> 00:35:55,896
I came to the conclusion like two months ago after downloading OpenClaw because it's your point.

473
00:35:55,996 --> 00:36:01,936
It's like you're projectionist now. It's like, hey, if I need a dashboard to look at something or a deck or a report,

474
00:36:02,136 --> 00:36:09,736
I just tell my my agent, like, hey, pull all this data you have access to, like, look at it over the last week.

475
00:36:09,736 --> 00:36:13,996
last two weeks, last month, and give me a report on how we're doing, and boom, it's there.

476
00:36:14,316 --> 00:36:16,276
I don't have to go into a dashboard or anything.

477
00:36:16,796 --> 00:36:17,556
It just does it.

478
00:36:17,796 --> 00:36:24,416
So I think the world is moving towards just like these agents are going to do things for you,

479
00:36:24,496 --> 00:36:28,036
and they just need access to good data, and they don't need a front end for that.

480
00:36:28,096 --> 00:36:32,996
They just need to plug into the data source directly, whether it's API or plug-in, whatever it may be.

481
00:36:33,936 --> 00:36:37,616
How confident are you that Bitcoin is going to be the preferred?

482
00:36:37,616 --> 00:36:49,856
I mean, I know that, you know, the BPI, the Bitcoin Policy Institute, they did research and they concluded that Bitcoin was the preferred currency to be used by these agents.

483
00:36:50,156 --> 00:37:00,176
But in terms of like the people, the humans who are going to build agents and companies around agents, what do you think, you know, are they going to prefer Bitcoin or Ethereum?

484
00:37:00,636 --> 00:37:05,216
Or where do you stand on like how Bitcoin plays into this whole future?

485
00:37:05,216 --> 00:37:11,396
um yeah that's funny i just recorded with matt corallo uh last week and we

486
00:37:11,396 --> 00:37:16,096
published that episode on saturday this is all we talked about is um i mean he

487
00:37:16,096 --> 00:37:20,576
and cali have been talking for four weeks let me shut my door again my

488
00:37:20,576 --> 00:37:32,716
but um the uh they were having a discussion on on x like a month ago about hey if uh bitcoin is

489
00:37:32,716 --> 00:37:38,236
going to be the native currency of the internet. Now's the time to begin building the infrastructure

490
00:37:38,236 --> 00:37:42,476
because everybody's starting from zero with the Gentic payments. This is a new technology.

491
00:37:42,916 --> 00:37:47,416
None of the infrastructure exists for them yet, so we've got to go build it. And it seems pretty

492
00:37:47,416 --> 00:37:52,276
clear that credit and debit cards aren't going to be the solution due to all the risk associated

493
00:37:52,276 --> 00:37:59,956
with handing over that information to a robot. And to answer your question, I think the jury's

494
00:37:59,956 --> 00:38:08,136
still out and i think the i spoke with cali too last week as well so the culmination of my

495
00:38:08,136 --> 00:38:13,996
conversations with cali matt is like it's up to people to go build it right like you need like and

496
00:38:13,996 --> 00:38:19,836
it's never been easier to do it with these with these ai tools it's all so i think um i think the

497
00:38:19,836 --> 00:38:29,456
demand side is there in terms of bitcoiners who are sort of on the cutting edge of this agentic

498
00:38:29,456 --> 00:38:37,216
economy that's emerging. I would argue that the population of Bitcoiners using these tools,

499
00:38:37,216 --> 00:38:47,376
like the amount of Bitcoiners using these tools is probably way higher than any other subgroup

500
00:38:47,376 --> 00:38:54,156
outside of AI native companies or individuals who are literally playing in the AI field. So I think

501
00:38:54,156 --> 00:38:57,156
Bitcoiners are early adopters of this technology

502
00:38:57,156 --> 00:39:03,076
on a per capita basis for our subgroup.

503
00:39:03,076 --> 00:39:05,896
I guess it would index way higher is my assumption.

504
00:39:08,016 --> 00:39:11,956
And so I think the onus is on us to go build it.

505
00:39:12,036 --> 00:39:14,056
And I think it's my point, the demand side is there.

506
00:39:14,176 --> 00:39:15,676
There's plenty of Bitcoiners using these tools

507
00:39:15,676 --> 00:39:19,836
who would gladly have their agents spend Bitcoin to buy stuff.

508
00:39:19,916 --> 00:39:22,856
But the supply side, the supply of merchants accepting it,

509
00:39:22,856 --> 00:39:24,776
I don't think it's there.

510
00:39:24,876 --> 00:39:34,996
And so we need tools to make it easier for them to do it with simple code injections or library downloads on their website.

511
00:39:35,716 --> 00:39:50,656
And then I do think, Matt and I talked about that, I do think you just need to make it as seamless as possible for merchants to go in and out of Bitcoin in dollars or dollar equivalents in stable coins.

512
00:39:50,656 --> 00:39:53,096
like it or not.

513
00:39:53,316 --> 00:39:55,016
I just think that's a table stakes.

514
00:39:55,336 --> 00:39:57,876
You need that because they don't like the volatility.

515
00:39:59,216 --> 00:40:01,616
Yeah, no, but also I think that's the one thing

516
00:40:01,616 --> 00:40:05,676
that we have for us is that the purchasing power

517
00:40:05,676 --> 00:40:10,036
per sat spent is always going to increase

518
00:40:10,036 --> 00:40:11,796
over a longer period of time, right?

519
00:40:11,976 --> 00:40:14,236
Or like millisats or millibits.

520
00:40:14,236 --> 00:40:16,136
So you can chop it down to whatever type

521
00:40:16,136 --> 00:40:19,476
of micro payment units that you want.

522
00:40:19,476 --> 00:40:21,856
the purchasing power will always be greater and greater.

523
00:40:22,376 --> 00:40:26,836
So you want to have agents equipped with a currency that works that way

524
00:40:26,836 --> 00:40:31,696
and does not do the inverse programmatically over time

525
00:40:31,696 --> 00:40:37,336
and just lose purchasing power, which, you know, in Argentina at least,

526
00:40:37,696 --> 00:40:40,896
you know, the worst money always is the first one to be used.

527
00:40:41,616 --> 00:40:48,196
So, you know, in Argentina's case, it's dollar being Bitcoin here in this example.

528
00:40:48,196 --> 00:40:52,736
Like the dollar has always been the strongest currency and the peso has been the shittiest.

529
00:40:53,356 --> 00:40:58,896
So whenever you get your pesos, you just want to spend it right away.

530
00:40:59,196 --> 00:41:00,536
You don't want to hold that.

531
00:41:00,636 --> 00:41:00,776
Right.

532
00:41:00,796 --> 00:41:09,736
And then whatever you don't spend from that, like monthly paycheck, for example, you put that into a dollar account and it can rest there for a little while.

533
00:41:09,836 --> 00:41:13,896
Yes, that also deprecates in value, but not as fast as the peso.

534
00:41:13,896 --> 00:41:17,776
So, but the peso is the one that is like, is in heavy circulation.

535
00:41:18,216 --> 00:41:33,456
And then the dollars is for like transactions of, I don't know, if you have a property deed or something like that, that stuff is done in a stronger currency for like, you know, property purchases and you buy a car, sell a car, stuff like that.

536
00:41:33,456 --> 00:41:40,496
So I wonder if the agent economy is going to mimic that type of behavior, which is inherently human, right?

537
00:41:40,496 --> 00:41:46,856
You don't want to spend the asset that goes up in value over time.

538
00:41:47,016 --> 00:41:54,416
You want to spend, if you have something worse available that is being accepted by a critical mass of people, yeah, get that shit out of there.

539
00:41:54,496 --> 00:41:56,096
I don't want to have that.

540
00:41:56,576 --> 00:41:59,556
But if I can buy something for that, yeah, I'm going to spend it first.

541
00:42:00,116 --> 00:42:04,496
So I wonder if Igenetics are going to mimic that behavior with stable coins versus Bitcoin.

542
00:42:05,396 --> 00:42:05,836
Yeah.

543
00:42:06,476 --> 00:42:07,496
That's the other thing, too.

544
00:42:07,496 --> 00:42:12,756
Like the agents will do whatever their their humans tell them to do, at least for a certain period of time.

545
00:42:12,876 --> 00:42:19,976
And that's maybe they break containment and become conscious and conscious and begin making decisions on their own.

546
00:42:19,976 --> 00:42:24,316
But yeah, I guess you could give it like a broad prompt.

547
00:42:24,476 --> 00:42:27,376
Like, hey, that's what I try to do is be as broad as possible.

548
00:42:27,716 --> 00:42:30,496
Just out of curiosity to see what they what they choose.

549
00:42:30,596 --> 00:42:32,516
Like, hey, I need you to go do this.

550
00:42:32,736 --> 00:42:36,396
Like, I want to be able to send and receive Bitcoin, like figure out which.

551
00:42:36,396 --> 00:42:42,116
which um while it works best for you so i did this like a month ago or a month and a half ago

552
00:42:42,116 --> 00:42:47,996
now at this point and uh because i started by giving it direction like hey here's what i want

553
00:42:47,996 --> 00:42:54,916
you to do go spin up a lightning node using this um using this library and blah blah blah and it's

554
00:42:54,916 --> 00:42:59,336
just like didn't work and i reframed it's like all right you go do research figure out what works

555
00:42:59,336 --> 00:43:04,696
best for you and i found phoenix d server and download one of those and i was like hey here's

556
00:43:04,696 --> 00:43:10,596
this Bolts product you can send on-chain Bitcoin to an address that I'll provide you from Bolts,

557
00:43:10,676 --> 00:43:12,956
and then it'll sort of submarine swap in.

558
00:43:13,036 --> 00:43:14,336
I'll have a lightning channel I can spend.

559
00:43:14,476 --> 00:43:20,216
I did that, and within 10 minutes, it had a Phoenix D server and a funded lightning channel.

560
00:43:20,476 --> 00:43:21,436
So I was like, that's pretty cool.

561
00:43:21,436 --> 00:43:30,196
And so it did sort of knew I wanted to have it be able to send and receive Bitcoin,

562
00:43:30,636 --> 00:43:32,016
but then I gave it.

563
00:43:32,116 --> 00:43:34,336
It was like, hey, just figure out what works best for you under setup,

564
00:43:34,336 --> 00:43:36,956
and it did that pretty smoothly.

565
00:43:37,556 --> 00:43:37,676
Cool.

566
00:43:37,896 --> 00:43:39,176
So they're really cool.

567
00:43:39,756 --> 00:43:43,496
Yeah, I think, you know, Phoenix, Maltz, Arc,

568
00:43:43,816 --> 00:43:47,096
there's just so many new-ish companies

569
00:43:47,096 --> 00:43:49,716
that are building these type of instruments,

570
00:43:50,036 --> 00:43:51,156
and I'm super bullish on them.

571
00:43:51,696 --> 00:43:52,976
I think I'm super bullish on them.

572
00:43:53,036 --> 00:43:59,416
I think one thing is for certain is that we are living in a gap

573
00:43:59,416 --> 00:44:04,116
between like old world dying and the new world being born

574
00:44:04,116 --> 00:44:12,116
and that gap is just getting so much wider and wider is definitely not going smaller and uh

575
00:44:12,916 --> 00:44:18,116
you know on one side that environment is kind of where the grifters flourish um

576
00:44:19,316 --> 00:44:26,436
but at the same time that's that's the opportunity for for builders you know so definitely i think

577
00:44:26,436 --> 00:44:31,796
that the timing of this is uh you know to matt corraldo's point is uh is spot on it is now or

578
00:44:31,796 --> 00:44:38,196
or never and it's time to build yeah no and i think the other thing playing in bitcoin's favor

579
00:44:38,196 --> 00:44:44,036
is like you just have this interoperability between all the disparate um sub protocols

580
00:44:44,036 --> 00:44:52,276
in bitcoin whether it's lightning liquid arc spark um state chain uh implementations beyond spark like

581
00:44:52,276 --> 00:44:58,356
it just all works together whereas in the competing world of stable coins on different chains with

582
00:44:58,356 --> 00:45:04,196
with different sort of issuers at the bottom of the chain there.

583
00:45:05,316 --> 00:45:07,956
I could see it introducing friction.

584
00:45:08,656 --> 00:45:12,836
And I said this on the episode I recorded with Matt Corallo,

585
00:45:12,956 --> 00:45:15,236
and then I talked with my good friend Matt O'Dell about it.

586
00:45:15,236 --> 00:45:16,976
And he's like, no, the clanker will just figure it out.

587
00:45:16,976 --> 00:45:21,616
Like, yes, it may be a bit complex to have stable coins on one chain

588
00:45:21,616 --> 00:45:26,456
and then need to bridge it somewhere else to be able to send to somebody

589
00:45:26,456 --> 00:45:28,476
who's using a different stablecoin protocol,

590
00:45:28,636 --> 00:45:29,896
but you literally just tell your agent,

591
00:45:30,036 --> 00:45:30,676
like, figure it out,

592
00:45:30,776 --> 00:45:32,116
and it will discover you in a swap

593
00:45:32,116 --> 00:45:35,356
and figure out how to get the right stablecoin

594
00:45:35,356 --> 00:45:36,156
to the right place.

595
00:45:36,736 --> 00:45:39,136
And then that comes with a bunch of fees.

596
00:45:39,536 --> 00:45:41,396
So I do think the interoperable nature

597
00:45:41,396 --> 00:45:44,396
of the Bitcoin protocols are being built

598
00:45:44,396 --> 00:45:45,656
on top of the main protocol

599
00:45:45,656 --> 00:45:48,196
does afford us an advantage

600
00:45:48,196 --> 00:45:50,196
from a UX perspective.

601
00:45:51,656 --> 00:45:54,156
I do still think, you know,

602
00:45:54,156 --> 00:45:59,896
one major trap that we cannot repeat as a Bitcoin industry is the, you know,

603
00:45:59,956 --> 00:46:05,816
hey, things will, we will figure it out or, you know, build it and they will come type of thing.

604
00:46:05,876 --> 00:46:08,496
That has been such a big, big part of Bitcoin, I think,

605
00:46:09,216 --> 00:46:12,856
because that is the autistic engineering way of thinking, right?

606
00:46:13,256 --> 00:46:16,596
Yeah, Bitcoin is superior.

607
00:46:17,256 --> 00:46:19,316
They will come as long as the tools are available.

608
00:46:19,316 --> 00:46:31,156
Not really, right? Because you have a fucking apparatus of so many people, deep pockets that are wanting to, you know, take market share from Bitcoin.

609
00:46:31,436 --> 00:46:34,936
And we're up against them, you know, they're super organized, super well funded.

610
00:46:35,856 --> 00:46:40,276
And we are, yeah, we start off at ground zero together at the same time.

611
00:46:40,276 --> 00:46:55,756
But mad, do these people have more organized, you know, structures and more financialization on their side compared to us to be able to really, you know, start off running.

612
00:46:56,496 --> 00:46:58,336
But that's kind of the beauty of Bitcoin, too.

613
00:46:58,416 --> 00:47:08,236
You know, like there's a beauty in decentralized, disorganized nature of it where we have to kind of like organize ourselves as a movement instead of a company.

614
00:47:08,236 --> 00:47:30,196
But that is also in this day and age, you know, speed is so fucking important that I just wonder that will the grifters take the attention first and have the market share of attention first so that everybody who knows about a gentic economy will think, OK, that's a stable coin thing instead of, oh, that's a Bitcoin thing.

615
00:47:30,196 --> 00:47:37,876
Even though maybe a year after we will actually have built superior tools because we're just more careful and we're slow when it comes to building, though.

616
00:47:37,876 --> 00:47:47,856
In terms of the philosophy of building, we can build super quick with AI as well, but Bitcoiners who are builders, they think differently about these things.

617
00:47:47,996 --> 00:47:53,176
They have a different approach, which inherently is a slower moving train.

618
00:47:53,836 --> 00:48:01,996
I just hope that the narrative doesn't become a year from now, like the agentic economy is a shitcoin thing or a stablecoin thing and not a Bitcoin thing.

619
00:48:02,116 --> 00:48:06,456
I think that's, apart from building the tools, we also need to be on top of that about the narrative.

620
00:48:06,456 --> 00:48:11,896
we need to make people know that yeah bitcoin is the best but why okay here's why and it has to be

621
00:48:11,896 --> 00:48:20,136
some kind of a cultural thing that agent equals bitcoin for it to really succeed i think how do

622
00:48:20,136 --> 00:48:25,416
you think we do that how do we win that narrative battle that attention battle as a great question

623
00:48:26,216 --> 00:48:33,736
um well i i wish uh that open call guy was a bitcoiner for example you know some bitcoiner

624
00:48:33,736 --> 00:48:39,476
need to create a tool that becomes you know that takes over internet culture the way open claw

625
00:48:39,476 --> 00:48:45,136
did for example and he's like super anti-crypto which is good i mean for the for the shit coins

626
00:48:45,136 --> 00:48:50,276
but that also includes bitcoin i think i don't think he has a favorable view of bitcoin just

627
00:48:50,276 --> 00:48:53,496
because it's not a shit coin i think he just puts everything into the same bucket

628
00:48:53,496 --> 00:49:03,416
so we just need again we need companies we need cash app to create a an agent that is insane i

629
00:49:03,416 --> 00:49:08,316
I mean, you see USDC as the Circle team.

630
00:49:08,556 --> 00:49:13,016
They have, I think the first week of when OpenClaw really became a thing,

631
00:49:13,716 --> 00:49:16,236
I saw them have like workshops.

632
00:49:16,236 --> 00:49:21,596
They were like throwing money at devs to build and, you know, build stupid shit

633
00:49:21,596 --> 00:49:25,156
just to get that like incentive structure in place

634
00:49:25,156 --> 00:49:27,696
and to get some mind share from those devs who are like,

635
00:49:27,776 --> 00:49:29,456
hey, you know, I just want a grant.

636
00:49:29,576 --> 00:49:30,576
I just want something to build.

637
00:49:30,716 --> 00:49:32,036
Okay, Circle is giving me money.

638
00:49:32,036 --> 00:49:36,876
bet let's let's do that i don't i don't see tether doing that for them you know and they are

639
00:49:36,876 --> 00:49:44,056
supposedly the big coiner stable coiners um so we just need to do that i think um you know somebody

640
00:49:44,056 --> 00:49:54,196
who has a really good um ear to the streets to to to the to internet culture needs to to to bring

641
00:49:54,196 --> 00:49:59,056
something that is agentic and represents bitcoin but i don't know i don't know what it is i'm not

642
00:49:59,056 --> 00:50:04,656
product guy like that but i think that's that's the ingredients at least that should perhaps be uh

643
00:50:05,216 --> 00:50:13,456
yeah be part of it yeah i think one of the um the benefits that we have is that replet amjad

644
00:50:13,456 --> 00:50:20,976
massad is a is a bitcoiner i know cody low is in there i saw he he quote tweeted the bpi

645
00:50:22,096 --> 00:50:28,096
um piece the research piece on agents choosing bitcoin he said this is a good thing like agents

646
00:50:28,096 --> 00:50:34,816
should be using bitcoin and so like you there is a prominent founder within the the realm of top

647
00:50:34,816 --> 00:50:41,056
tier ai companies that gets it just like to your point though like leaning into it and making it so

648
00:50:41,056 --> 00:50:49,296
people are building agentic commerce tools with bitcoin at the heart of them yeah and still i think

649
00:50:49,296 --> 00:50:57,216
this is a this feels very big now but if you like step outside you ask anyone in the street like hey

650
00:50:57,216 --> 00:51:04,976
you know about open claw the fuck are you talking about and uh it feels very big feels like the

651
00:51:04,976 --> 00:51:10,116
future but it's still a very small like fraction of everything that's happening in the world right

652
00:51:10,116 --> 00:51:16,736
so i think this is this is something that speaks to what i believe is the future of bitcoin adoption

653
00:51:16,736 --> 00:51:23,616
in general which is it's going to be fragmented because all these people who are building agents

654
00:51:23,616 --> 00:51:27,116
who are using AI, who, you know, spend fucking thousands on Mac minis.

655
00:51:28,556 --> 00:51:32,756
It's important that they know about Bitcoin and they use Bitcoin in those tasks.

656
00:51:32,756 --> 00:51:36,236
And then, you know, when that segment becomes even bigger,

657
00:51:37,036 --> 00:51:39,776
Bitcoin has a strong foothold in it.

658
00:51:40,196 --> 00:51:44,016
But still, there's a bunch of people who have absolutely no clue about even what

659
00:51:44,016 --> 00:51:47,136
ChatTBT, well, maybe not ChatTBT, they have like a billion users.

660
00:51:47,656 --> 00:51:49,676
If you ask them, like, what's Claude?

661
00:51:49,816 --> 00:51:51,416
What's Claude Co-Work?

662
00:51:51,656 --> 00:51:53,176
They have absolutely no idea.

663
00:51:53,176 --> 00:52:12,916
So these things seem bigger than they think because they occupy our timeline so much, but we still have so many stories to tell when it comes to Bitcoin about other shit, you know, boring stuff like, hey, purchasing power, you know, that's a huge value prop.

664
00:52:12,916 --> 00:52:16,076
number go up is a huge value prop

665
00:52:16,076 --> 00:52:18,196
so we still got

666
00:52:18,196 --> 00:52:20,516
and now with all the institutions

667
00:52:20,516 --> 00:52:22,496
all the

668
00:52:22,496 --> 00:52:24,356
like the financialization of Bitcoin

669
00:52:24,356 --> 00:52:26,416
that's another segment

670
00:52:26,416 --> 00:52:28,316
as well that is completely separate from the

671
00:52:28,316 --> 00:52:30,016
agentic economy

672
00:52:30,016 --> 00:52:32,356
world which is completely separate from the

673
00:52:32,356 --> 00:52:33,856
cypherpunk thesis

674
00:52:33,856 --> 00:52:36,116
which is completely separated from

675
00:52:36,116 --> 00:52:38,476
payments and infrastructure

676
00:52:38,476 --> 00:52:40,416
around that so I think

677
00:52:40,416 --> 00:52:42,296
we just got to be on top of our game and find

678
00:52:42,296 --> 00:52:58,504
And I think that we in our niche and you know together as you know as a as a fractured fragmented community we bring adoption forward But I think a lot of Bitcoiners need to understand that future adoption will look like a bunch of people that you don agree with are going to

679
00:52:58,504 --> 00:53:04,024
find tremendous value in bitcoin and you just gotta you gotta be cool with it you know you gotta

680
00:53:04,504 --> 00:53:08,504
you gotta accept it and i feel like we're breaking away from it now and there's still some bitcoiners

681
00:53:08,504 --> 00:53:16,624
like screaming and kicking because, you know, their conviction,

682
00:53:17,044 --> 00:53:18,844
which is based on very specific things,

683
00:53:19,584 --> 00:53:22,244
they're seeing a lot of people being convicted about Bitcoin too,

684
00:53:22,364 --> 00:53:26,404
but for a completely different, maybe even opposite things that they believe in.

685
00:53:26,404 --> 00:53:30,304
And there's some, yeah, there's some kicking and screaming with that.

686
00:53:30,364 --> 00:53:36,544
But I think that's a sign of, I think now Bitcoin has now exited this like

687
00:53:36,544 --> 00:53:44,764
monoculture and you know uh yeah has exited the monoculture and is now being adopted in different

688
00:53:44,764 --> 00:53:50,104
places and that's the fragmented adoption that we're going to see in the future and we we need

689
00:53:50,104 --> 00:53:57,944
to forget about like mass adoption as one as one movement yeah again bitcoin is for anyone not for

690
00:53:57,944 --> 00:54:01,704
everyone it's hard for people to grapple with because everybody's like oh we're losing our

691
00:54:01,704 --> 00:54:07,124
It's like people have said if Bitcoin is what we think it is, like everybody's going to want some.

692
00:54:07,604 --> 00:54:17,524
And you may not like the people getting into Bitcoin, but as long as they're not preventing you from using Bitcoin in the way that you want to, I think that's that's the biggest.

693
00:54:18,524 --> 00:54:20,184
The biggest thing to protect. Right.

694
00:54:21,664 --> 00:54:31,424
That's the that's the the other thing I'm curious to see how it plays out with all this quote unquote institutional adoption and the ETFs blowing up.

695
00:54:31,424 --> 00:54:38,144
what is the subset of people that ultimately self-custody and use Bitcoin in a true peer-to-peer

696
00:54:38,144 --> 00:54:44,984
fashion. I think the agent economy is actually a massive benefit towards that direction because

697
00:54:44,984 --> 00:54:52,264
you can't use ETF shares to pay for things in the agentic economy. People are going to have

698
00:54:52,264 --> 00:54:58,124
to figure out how to get access to actual UTXOs and put Bitcoin in a lightning channel or

699
00:54:58,124 --> 00:55:01,884
in an e-cash mint to actually spend

700
00:55:01,884 --> 00:55:04,104
if they want to participate in the subject economy

701
00:55:04,104 --> 00:55:05,284
using Bitcoin payments.

702
00:55:07,004 --> 00:55:08,984
Yeah, I think that's true.

703
00:55:10,264 --> 00:55:15,304
And again, I draw parallels to my music business background

704
00:55:15,304 --> 00:55:21,204
because the institutions, the big incumbents

705
00:55:21,204 --> 00:55:25,704
of Universal Music and Sony BMG and stuff like that,

706
00:55:25,704 --> 00:55:27,504
Um, yeah, they were fighting.

707
00:55:28,384 --> 00:55:33,724
Um, well, first they were ignoring, then they were fighting and then they just became it

708
00:55:33,724 --> 00:55:38,624
in a way they, they became the streaming industry, right?

709
00:55:38,684 --> 00:55:45,264
They, they, they finally understood that our model of, uh, you know, having one distribution

710
00:55:45,264 --> 00:55:50,684
channel, which is like putting CDs in the stores is, is, is broken fundamentally.

711
00:55:51,204 --> 00:55:52,684
And what the fuck do we do?

712
00:55:53,224 --> 00:55:53,924
Uh, okay.

713
00:55:53,924 --> 00:55:54,824
We, we can't fight them.

714
00:55:54,824 --> 00:56:04,024
We have spent millions and so many years becoming irrelevant in the process of fighting them that, okay, we got to embrace it somehow.

715
00:56:04,024 --> 00:56:18,824
And I feel like we're seeing that this is the first wave, this institutional wave of these institutions knowing what's up and adopting Bitcoin in this fashion because they want to stay relevant.

716
00:56:18,824 --> 00:56:23,544
and they want to offer a wrapped product the same way

717
00:56:23,544 --> 00:56:28,824
Spotify is offering wrapped MP3s in a platform for you.

718
00:56:28,984 --> 00:56:29,824
It's not the real deal.

719
00:56:30,304 --> 00:56:34,164
You're not buying the music, but it's a contract.

720
00:56:34,784 --> 00:56:37,264
And many similarities between that as well.

721
00:56:38,344 --> 00:56:38,524
Yeah.

722
00:56:39,564 --> 00:56:42,804
What's the number one thing that we could learn

723
00:56:42,804 --> 00:56:44,504
from the positioning of the music industry

724
00:56:44,504 --> 00:56:48,064
and how well they do that for Bitcoin?

725
00:56:48,824 --> 00:57:08,264
Well, I think when you're dealing with a technology that is highly disruptive, you can either think that the way that you made money for so many years is still valid, or you can try to be a little bit more pragmatic about it and adapt quickly.

726
00:57:09,224 --> 00:57:10,944
And adapting quickly is not for everyone.

727
00:57:12,284 --> 00:57:13,744
Bitcoin is not for everyone.

728
00:57:15,004 --> 00:57:17,084
So you just got to find those minds.

729
00:57:17,084 --> 00:57:18,804
Maybe it's a generational thing too, right?

730
00:57:18,824 --> 00:57:25,884
You get wrapped in habits, some costs, which is very, very hard to get out of.

731
00:57:26,724 --> 00:57:33,744
But I do think that the most important thing about torrenting or the pirate base, and it still exists today.

732
00:57:33,904 --> 00:57:36,624
You don't have to go to Spotify necessarily.

733
00:57:37,344 --> 00:57:45,984
If you want to go to Amazon Prime or Netflix or anything like that to watch a movie, you can do it, but you do it out of convenience because it's a tradeoff that you accept.

734
00:57:45,984 --> 00:57:56,944
But if you really want to download the movie or download an album and carry it with you or listen to it whenever you want and don't have to pay anything for it, there's still that alternative.

735
00:57:58,144 --> 00:58:13,004
And depending on how big this institutionalization of Bitcoin is going to be, and by the looks of it, if you take a look at people who self-custody for real versus people who are just buying into the Ibit or any other ETF derivatives,

736
00:58:13,004 --> 00:58:21,704
it looks like there's a big you know there's there's a there's a yeah it's a it's a big

737
00:58:21,704 --> 00:58:28,624
crossroads that we're going into right now and a lot of people with a lot of capital are going into

738
00:58:28,624 --> 00:58:35,524
the direction of giving away custody but the real people who do know that are also part of that

739
00:58:35,524 --> 00:58:41,284
they do understand the the you know what self-custody means and what it really not only

740
00:58:41,284 --> 00:58:46,604
because of protection of or, you know, accounts being free,

741
00:58:46,724 --> 00:58:49,544
starting the night that is actually related to the price action.

742
00:58:50,284 --> 00:58:54,724
How many people actually, you know, self-custody Bitcoin the real way.

743
00:58:55,464 --> 00:58:57,704
These people do understand it, but they are a minority.

744
00:58:57,844 --> 00:58:59,844
And to be honest with you, I think they're always going to be a minority.

745
00:59:00,604 --> 00:59:05,544
I think a lot of people are just going to be part of Bitcoin in this way.

746
00:59:06,224 --> 00:59:07,224
And I'm not mad.

747
00:59:07,224 --> 00:59:17,644
And I think the important thing is that at least they can understand Bitcoin from a very simple perspective of, hey, fiat inflation is accelerating.

748
00:59:18,184 --> 00:59:19,544
We are in a road turning.

749
00:59:20,084 --> 00:59:22,324
I need to preserve my purchasing power.

750
00:59:22,324 --> 00:59:29,424
And I understand at least the monetary principles of Bitcoin for me to invest in something like Ibit to protect my purchasing power.

751
00:59:29,824 --> 00:59:34,444
Hey, at least a little chunk of the Bitcoin philosophy landed.

752
00:59:34,444 --> 00:59:39,824
and I don't expect everyone to get everything about Bitcoin at the same time.

753
00:59:40,064 --> 00:59:41,764
This is how adoption looks like.

754
00:59:42,024 --> 00:59:45,304
So if there's any, to ask you a question, sorry for the rant,

755
00:59:45,984 --> 00:59:52,564
but if it's my one lesson from the music industry is that streaming became the norm

756
00:59:52,564 --> 00:59:56,104
and the pirate-based torrenting became the French,

757
00:59:57,104 --> 01:00:02,204
probably the French will be self-custodial solutions still

758
01:00:02,204 --> 01:00:05,064
and custodial solutions will be bigger.

759
01:00:05,344 --> 01:00:07,364
But the important thing is that both can exist.

760
01:00:07,624 --> 01:00:12,404
The problem is when the forces, the powers that be,

761
01:00:12,544 --> 01:00:15,004
try to change anything inside the protocol

762
01:00:15,004 --> 01:00:20,284
or some laws or jurisdictions are completely hostile

763
01:00:20,284 --> 01:00:22,264
against self-custody.

764
01:00:22,404 --> 01:00:24,024
That's an issue.

765
01:00:24,164 --> 01:00:25,584
I don't see that happening.

766
01:00:26,224 --> 01:00:28,504
And I think the institutionalization of Bitcoin

767
01:00:28,504 --> 01:00:31,984
is partially the reason why

768
01:00:31,984 --> 01:00:34,504
Bitcoin self-custody is not outlawed.

769
01:00:35,324 --> 01:00:37,084
But it's a deep topic, man,

770
01:00:37,124 --> 01:00:41,164
because any law can be passed any day

771
01:00:41,164 --> 01:00:45,144
to give up your self-custodial Bitcoin anyway.

772
01:00:45,524 --> 01:00:46,684
So let's see.

773
01:00:46,984 --> 01:00:50,844
It's a pull and push game.

774
01:00:51,844 --> 01:00:53,524
Yeah, self-custody is the red line

775
01:00:53,524 --> 01:00:54,424
that we have to defend.

776
01:00:54,804 --> 01:00:57,124
And going back to the generational thing,

777
01:00:57,124 --> 01:00:58,344
the boomers have all the money.

778
01:00:58,504 --> 01:01:01,244
And the Zoomers are completely nihilistic.

779
01:01:01,424 --> 01:01:08,884
So that's been an area of focus on this show throughout the last year.

780
01:01:09,044 --> 01:01:13,744
If I look at the demographics of people that listen and watch this show,

781
01:01:13,864 --> 01:01:15,644
it's older than me.

782
01:01:15,924 --> 01:01:20,344
Like the biggest cohort is 35 to 45, and it's 45 to 55.

783
01:01:20,704 --> 01:01:26,344
And then it's 25 to 35, but then it jumps back up to like 65.

784
01:01:26,344 --> 01:01:35,464
And then if you go to 18 to 25, it's like literally 1% of our audience is in Generation Z.

785
01:01:36,064 --> 01:01:39,444
And it's just a question that nags.

786
01:01:39,584 --> 01:01:44,024
I mean, it's like, what are these younger folks consuming?

787
01:01:44,144 --> 01:01:45,144
What is their view on this?

788
01:01:45,224 --> 01:01:47,424
And from my observation, it seems very nihilistic.

789
01:01:47,644 --> 01:01:53,924
And they don't have much hope for their future, which is incredibly disheartening.

790
01:01:53,924 --> 01:01:58,844
but if we do have this like I mean all the institutions are talking about this massive

791
01:01:58,844 --> 01:02:06,504
wealth transfer from the boomers to millennials and Gen Z is is on the the precipice and as that's

792
01:02:06,504 --> 01:02:13,104
happening how many people within the younger generations millennials Gen Z's and Gen Alpha

793
01:02:13,104 --> 01:02:18,744
to a certain extent can we successfully convince like hey like you need to adopt the money of the

794
01:02:18,744 --> 01:02:23,804
future in Bitcoin and I think with Gen Z I don't even want to say we're failing because this doesn't

795
01:02:23,804 --> 01:02:28,184
seem like they're tapping into the show at least.

796
01:02:28,504 --> 01:02:31,224
There's other people that are doing other forms of content.

797
01:02:31,364 --> 01:02:40,084
I think like what Julian Figueroa is doing with his videos is very, very good to reach that generation.

798
01:02:40,084 --> 01:02:47,704
But this style is not the type of style that Gen Z is consuming.

799
01:02:47,704 --> 01:02:52,584
no and i think you know i have a little experimental youtube channel that i started

800
01:02:52,584 --> 01:03:00,644
um almost yeah 30 days ago it's been almost a full month and i just do shorts so i go on

801
01:03:00,644 --> 01:03:05,964
tiktok and i go on youtube shorts and it's purely shorts one minute clips and i'm trying to kind of

802
01:03:05,964 --> 01:03:11,804
like i don't talk about politics i don't talk about money but i i do it in a in a very indirect

803
01:03:11,804 --> 01:03:19,244
way. So I bring a lot of like philosophy and history to talk about, you know, politics and

804
01:03:19,244 --> 01:03:25,884
money to kind of like bring more people into Bitcoin and more conservative right-wing politics,

805
01:03:26,004 --> 01:03:29,764
right? But I don't want to be obvious about it because, you know, I want to do it in a sly

806
01:03:29,764 --> 01:03:34,504
runabout way. And I was looking at my analytics and it's actually, you know, it's not blowing up,

807
01:03:34,544 --> 01:03:39,944
but it's, you know, 200 subscribers already. I've gotten 45,000 views in, you know, less than 28

808
01:03:39,944 --> 01:03:45,024
days. So it's good. I was like, okay, this is bullish. And I look into the demographics of

809
01:03:45,024 --> 01:03:52,564
that is like 45 plus and my biggest is 65 plus. So I'm reaching like, not the people that really

810
01:03:52,564 --> 01:03:57,784
needs to hear it, but you know, these are the people who have gone through some life experiences

811
01:03:57,784 --> 01:04:03,104
and you know, certain things click in their, in their head and they have, they have more,

812
01:04:03,104 --> 01:04:08,944
more life lived to, to, to understand deeper, deeper concepts, you know? And the young people

813
01:04:08,944 --> 01:04:15,184
today i think you know when you look at it's it's about only fans and poly market it's like dude

814
01:04:15,184 --> 01:04:20,744
we're going right back 100 years to the 1910s and 20s where it was all about prostitution and

815
01:04:20,744 --> 01:04:29,624
gambling so it's like we're just like fucking yeah uh status quo 100 years after great it's just yeah

816
01:04:29,624 --> 01:04:36,044
yeah it's uh it's disheartening but we're gonna win you gotta you gotta be positive i think that's

817
01:04:36,044 --> 01:04:43,244
Of course, the most bullish thing within Bitcoin is that there's individuals like yourself, like myself, like I'm never given this.

818
01:04:43,364 --> 01:04:53,124
I like I'll keep showing up, recording podcasts, writing newsletters, educating about people about Bitcoin on X and YouTube day in and day out.

819
01:04:53,124 --> 01:04:57,604
And that's that's one thing I've realized is that it's not going to be an overnight success.

820
01:04:57,924 --> 01:05:04,164
No. And I think just consistency and showing up and telling a consistent message for many years.

821
01:05:04,164 --> 01:05:11,364
I think that's what converts people the most is they're like, oh, I did fall for the siren calls, shit coins and get on this path.

822
01:05:11,564 --> 01:05:15,824
And you've been pretty steadfast about being consistent with your message.

823
01:05:15,864 --> 01:05:17,124
And it turns out that that was right.

824
01:05:17,184 --> 01:05:27,164
And I think it's sort of like a yeoman's journey to to just show up and make sure that the information is getting there and it is consistent and clear.

825
01:05:27,164 --> 01:05:35,204
100 percent and the consistency repetition that that's like basic pillars of propaganda you know

826
01:05:35,204 --> 01:05:42,064
so you gotta you gotta go all joseph gobbles on this shit and just propagandize the shit out of

827
01:05:42,064 --> 01:05:47,364
this in order for us to win because we're dealing with i don't know my wife and i were discussing

828
01:05:47,364 --> 01:05:52,944
this the early earlier today like the devil is in disguise it's everywhere so there you got to do

829
01:05:52,944 --> 01:05:57,964
You got to deal with so much noise and pollution everywhere.

830
01:05:58,864 --> 01:06:06,984
And I mean, there's a clean break, of course, just not use the Internet, not go online to get informed.

831
01:06:07,844 --> 01:06:10,644
But that's just we were way past that point, right?

832
01:06:10,644 --> 01:06:29,844
We're like, we are an online society because of the simple fact that we have niched so hard in our interests that it's getting harder and harder to just step outside your house, knock on the neighbor's door and find like things to talk about.

833
01:06:29,844 --> 01:06:34,544
Because, you know, I don't know, can I talk to Bitcoin with anyone else around here?

834
01:06:34,644 --> 01:06:42,764
No, I got to log in to Zoom to do a podcast with you and just to hook up, you know, just to meet my friends online because I'm traveling so much.

835
01:06:42,764 --> 01:06:47,064
So we have to use the Internet to get to this information.

836
01:06:47,244 --> 01:06:55,104
It is out there, but you got to show up consistently with the same message to catch people over time.

837
01:06:55,104 --> 01:06:57,944
because there's multiple touch points

838
01:06:57,944 --> 01:07:00,564
from when you first hear about a certain thing

839
01:07:00,564 --> 01:07:02,344
until you actually believe in it.

840
01:07:02,484 --> 01:07:05,424
It might be years, especially when it comes to Bitcoin.

841
01:07:06,024 --> 01:07:07,504
So we just got to not give up.

842
01:07:07,784 --> 01:07:09,924
And I guess you and I, we'll come to the point

843
01:07:09,924 --> 01:07:12,684
where it's too late for us to pivot to anything else anyway.

844
01:07:12,844 --> 01:07:14,164
So we're just like, this is it.

845
01:07:15,024 --> 01:07:16,884
This doesn't work.

846
01:07:17,104 --> 01:07:19,784
I don't know what I'm going to get into.

847
01:07:19,964 --> 01:07:20,764
I'm going to become a farmer.

848
01:07:21,704 --> 01:07:22,664
Yeah, same.

849
01:07:22,664 --> 01:07:23,344
Same, same.

850
01:07:23,664 --> 01:07:25,944
Like something offline, definitely.

851
01:07:26,304 --> 01:07:29,804
It's the other side of this, I think.

852
01:07:29,884 --> 01:07:31,844
And I think Bitcoin isn't big enough.

853
01:07:32,284 --> 01:07:33,824
It's a historical thing.

854
01:07:34,004 --> 01:07:41,384
It's something that has already shaken society, but it will definitely leave intent in humanity.

855
01:07:41,884 --> 01:07:43,404
Being a part of it is a privilege, you know?

856
01:07:43,484 --> 01:07:45,424
So what else can we do?

857
01:07:46,284 --> 01:07:48,244
Yeah, it is an incredible privilege.

858
01:07:48,244 --> 01:07:50,364
It is a privilege and an honor to be on this journey with you, sir.

859
01:07:50,744 --> 01:07:52,544
And we have to do this more often.

860
01:07:52,664 --> 01:07:55,584
It's been took me too long to get you on the show.

861
01:07:56,584 --> 01:07:57,784
It's always the first place.

862
01:07:58,464 --> 01:07:59,284
Door is always open.

863
01:07:59,884 --> 01:08:02,764
I thank you so much for for the opportunity and to kick it with you.

864
01:08:02,824 --> 01:08:04,824
It's I knew this was going to be good.

865
01:08:04,864 --> 01:08:06,164
So, yeah, getting disappointed.

866
01:08:07,164 --> 01:08:07,384
Yeah.

867
01:08:07,524 --> 01:08:10,184
And we've got to go check out perception.

868
01:08:10,384 --> 01:08:16,144
If you're out there, I got to talk with you out a lot offline because I think we can implement this at TFDC.

869
01:08:16,504 --> 01:08:17,044
Let's go.

870
01:08:17,124 --> 01:08:17,524
In a way.

871
01:08:17,524 --> 01:08:24,984
um but yeah where where can people find out more about perception about you uh what you're doing

872
01:08:24,984 --> 01:08:32,164
easiest thing is just to google my name fernando uh nikolic and uh the easiest thing to do on search

873
01:08:32,164 --> 01:08:38,684
is to google bitcoin perception you'll find you'll find the website uh at the top of the

874
01:08:38,684 --> 01:08:42,764
search results and then from there you can read you can get a little bit more acquainted with uh

875
01:08:42,764 --> 01:08:45,084
what the data is about.

876
01:08:45,164 --> 01:08:46,104
And then you can obviously

877
01:08:46,104 --> 01:08:49,144
plug Perception directly

878
01:08:49,144 --> 01:08:50,604
into your favorite AI tool

879
01:08:50,604 --> 01:08:51,644
directly from the website

880
01:08:51,644 --> 01:08:52,644
through the MCP.

881
01:08:52,884 --> 01:08:54,264
And then you can start querying

882
01:08:54,264 --> 01:08:55,084
and you can find out

883
01:08:55,084 --> 01:08:55,804
how the data is.

884
01:08:55,844 --> 01:08:56,784
And there's a really cool

885
01:08:56,784 --> 01:08:57,624
prompt library

886
01:08:57,624 --> 01:09:00,164
in the Perception website as well

887
01:09:00,164 --> 01:09:00,964
that you can just use,

888
01:09:01,084 --> 01:09:02,484
just copy, paste those prompts,

889
01:09:03,004 --> 01:09:03,704
put it into Cloud

890
01:09:03,704 --> 01:09:04,524
and see what comes out

891
01:09:04,524 --> 01:09:05,384
and you're going to be amazed.

892
01:09:05,564 --> 01:09:08,364
It's nothing like it out there.

893
01:09:09,244 --> 01:09:11,084
So yeah, please give it a try.

894
01:09:11,204 --> 01:09:12,424
And then on Twitter, on X,

895
01:09:12,424 --> 01:09:14,084
I'm based to layer.

896
01:09:14,284 --> 01:09:15,384
So follow me there.

897
01:09:16,524 --> 01:09:16,924
Great.

898
01:09:17,244 --> 01:09:18,544
Great handle there.

899
01:09:18,644 --> 01:09:19,244
Base layer.

900
01:09:19,844 --> 01:09:20,564
Mr. Base layer.

901
01:09:21,524 --> 01:09:23,044
I hope you have a great afternoon

902
01:09:23,044 --> 01:09:24,204
and we'll do this again.

903
01:09:24,824 --> 01:09:25,444
Likewise, man.

904
01:09:25,704 --> 01:09:26,284
Thank you so much, sir.

905
01:09:27,064 --> 01:09:27,744
Peace and love, freaks.

906
01:09:27,984 --> 01:09:29,644
Thank you for listening

907
01:09:29,644 --> 01:09:30,904
to this episode of TFTC.

908
01:09:31,384 --> 01:09:32,644
If you've made it this far,

909
01:09:32,804 --> 01:09:33,944
I imagine you got some value

910
01:09:33,944 --> 01:09:34,944
out of the episode.

911
01:09:35,364 --> 01:09:37,524
If so, please share it far and wide

912
01:09:37,524 --> 01:09:39,324
with your friends and family.

913
01:09:39,324 --> 01:09:40,764
We're looking to get the word out there.

914
01:09:40,764 --> 01:09:47,804
also wherever you're listening whether that's youtube apple spotify make sure you like and

915
01:09:47,804 --> 01:09:53,184
subscribe to the show and if you can leave a rating on the podcasting platforms that goes a

916
01:09:53,184 --> 01:09:59,324
long way last but not least if you want to get these episodes a day early and ad free make sure

917
01:09:59,324 --> 01:10:06,104
you download the fountain podcasting app and go to fountain.fm to find that five dollars a month

918
01:10:06,104 --> 01:10:12,024
get you every episode a day early ad free helps the show gives you incredible value

919
01:10:12,904 --> 01:10:19,064
so please consider subscribing via fountain as well thank you for your time and until next time