1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:09,920
You've had a dynamic where money has become freer than free.

2
00:00:10,780 --> 00:00:13,040
You talk about a Fed just gone nuts.

3
00:00:13,500 --> 00:00:15,700
All the central banks going nuts.

4
00:00:16,380 --> 00:00:17,880
So it's all acting like safe haven.

5
00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:23,500
I believe that in a world where central bankers are tripping over themselves to devalue their

6
00:00:23,500 --> 00:00:25,260
currency, Bitcoin wins.

7
00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:28,480
In the world of fiat currencies, Bitcoin is the victor.

8
00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:31,380
I mean, that's part of the bull case for Bitcoin.

9
00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:34,240
If you're not paying attention, you probably should be.

10
00:00:36,820 --> 00:00:38,660
Ryan, thank you for joining us.

11
00:00:39,620 --> 00:00:52,860
I think this will be an interesting discussion because I think you've been heavily immersed in what many would deem to be the TradFi world for years with Embry Asset Management.

12
00:00:52,860 --> 00:00:59,660
You founded it in 2008, so I think you've been through a couple of TradFi cycles.

13
00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:07,160
Interesting, founding an asset manager in 2008 when the world was a bit more chaotic.

14
00:01:07,380 --> 00:01:12,840
So I think to really set up this conversation is, let's go back to 2008,

15
00:01:12,980 --> 00:01:18,820
starting Empery Asset Management, being very successful in that world,

16
00:01:18,820 --> 00:01:24,220
and then coming to find Bitcoin and really lean into it full bore.

17
00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:25,700
Yeah.

18
00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:32,120
It's really through conversations like this that makes me think back to what that was then,

19
00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:37,180
because 2008 was a fascinating time, right?

20
00:01:37,220 --> 00:01:40,760
It was a true financial crisis, right?

21
00:01:40,820 --> 00:01:44,140
Driven by finance, consequences to finance.

22
00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:47,360
It was just financial all around, right?

23
00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:53,960
money markets trading at discounts to, to their, uh, you know, par value or a dollar, right. That's,

24
00:01:53,960 --> 00:02:00,600
you know, hard to fathom that cash is trading below cash. So, but you know, we managed to get

25
00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:06,900
our, uh, funds together and we were supposed to launch with 50 million bucks. Uh, we ended up

26
00:02:06,900 --> 00:02:12,760
launching with five, uh, cause everyone just panicked, like literally like had signed subscription

27
00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:17,760
agreements and just panicked. So, you know, we've seen it. We didn't hold people to, you know,

28
00:02:17,920 --> 00:02:23,040
their subscriptions, uh, because everyone was just too nervous. And we just said, you know,

29
00:02:23,460 --> 00:02:26,860
hold your money and watch us perform and come in when you're comfortable.

30
00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:32,000
Uh, cause everyone was scrambling for every dollar they could sort of secure at the time.

31
00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:39,500
Uh, so it was interesting. And then when we first started, the biggest risk was we held cash,

32
00:02:39,500 --> 00:02:47,620
right and depending on where your cash was and what bank it was in like cash was at risk if that

33
00:02:47,620 --> 00:02:54,700
bank went under so we had multiple bank accounts we had goldman we had jp morgan we had jeffries

34
00:02:54,700 --> 00:03:03,900
and we had like td uh and we i every morning i had wire instructions with the balances in the

35
00:03:03,900 --> 00:03:10,000
accounts to be able to move them out based on, you know, the bank potentially collapsing.

36
00:03:10,900 --> 00:03:15,100
So I could just quickly move. And that was, you know, you couldn't do electronic wires. So it

37
00:03:15,100 --> 00:03:21,180
was sort of like you're faxing or scanning wires to the prime broker to get the funds out and trying

38
00:03:21,180 --> 00:03:27,920
to be ahead of everyone else. Because, you know, if you were a little bit slow, you were going down

39
00:03:27,920 --> 00:03:31,760
with the ship, right? And then you got to go unscramble the eggs and get your money back,

40
00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:37,980
which could take a decade in worst case scenario or maybe long case scenario.

41
00:03:38,940 --> 00:03:40,040
So that's what we were dealing with.

42
00:03:40,540 --> 00:03:42,820
Investing was almost secondary.

43
00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:46,300
It was protecting our cash and then finding interesting things to do.

44
00:03:46,460 --> 00:03:50,240
So we've seen, I think, the worst right out of the gate.

45
00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:51,880
And then we performed well.

46
00:03:52,540 --> 00:03:54,480
We stuck to our discipline and we made money.

47
00:03:54,620 --> 00:03:58,800
We effectively were doing and still are doing private equity style investments

48
00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:02,800
in the public markets, structuring transactions with public companies

49
00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:07,680
and funding whatever their mission to growth was.

50
00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:10,380
And we've been doing that for almost two decades now.

51
00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:12,360
Generating good returns.

52
00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:16,000
What's it like structuring these deals?

53
00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:23,040
Is it sort of white label, go in depending on what the particular company is,

54
00:04:23,100 --> 00:04:25,660
what their goals are, really sitting down with them and getting it done?

55
00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:28,400
Or is there some formula to this?

56
00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:32,320
So it's very much a bespoke market.

57
00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:43,200
Every provision, every aspect, every term is negotiated with that issuer based on what the risks are there, what we're seeking for upside.

58
00:04:43,420 --> 00:04:46,640
How much risk tolerance do we have?

59
00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:49,220
Are we structuring as equity or structuring as a convert?

60
00:04:49,220 --> 00:04:57,540
We'll go all the way up and down the capital structure from senior secured debt to just plain vanilla common with no rights whatsoever.

61
00:04:57,540 --> 00:05:11,040
So we'll go depending on what the situation is, right? Because that's kind of what investing is. It's fitting your structure and the capital to their needs if you like the situation.

62
00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:17,340
So, you know, hundreds to sometimes thousands of pages of documents for each transaction.

63
00:05:17,340 --> 00:05:21,820
We've done over 2,500 in the last 18 years.

64
00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:27,960
So we have a machine, but it's a very cumbersome machine.

65
00:05:28,300 --> 00:05:39,840
And then it's also organizing all the investments you've made and understanding all those provisions, which, you know, the current iteration of AI and all that stuff is helpful with that.

66
00:05:39,840 --> 00:05:45,120
but you've got a big file to manage as well.

67
00:05:45,220 --> 00:05:46,980
So you have to have a good operational team for that.

68
00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:50,440
So doing this since 2008,

69
00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:52,580
as you're describing that,

70
00:05:52,900 --> 00:05:55,540
I'm thinking in my head,

71
00:05:56,100 --> 00:06:00,900
how much has the scale of these individual deals changed

72
00:06:00,900 --> 00:06:05,260
as you've had QE1, QE2, COVID, stimulus?

73
00:06:05,580 --> 00:06:09,440
How much more money is being demanded by these deals?

74
00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:12,200
I'm just curious specifically.

75
00:06:13,100 --> 00:06:15,700
I mean, back in 2008, it's a good question.

76
00:06:16,220 --> 00:06:21,220
Back in 2008, it was very spotty transactions.

77
00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:23,600
Like very little was getting funded.

78
00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:30,120
And it was only things that, you know, made a lot of sense that were like distressed.

79
00:06:30,280 --> 00:06:33,880
Like Heckler Mining was one where it was like the biggest silver producer in the country.

80
00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:35,760
It was on the verge of bankruptcy.

81
00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:38,780
So you go in, you fund that and you kind of resurrect that asset.

82
00:06:38,780 --> 00:06:42,680
and you take bankruptcy off the table and then it really performed really well.

83
00:06:43,220 --> 00:06:48,800
It was very kind of niche things like that that made sense to finance in that environment.

84
00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:51,600
And then COVID was the exact opposite, right?

85
00:06:51,700 --> 00:06:57,340
COVID was people were throwing money at everything because liquidity was crazy and performance

86
00:06:57,340 --> 00:07:02,820
was crazy and you could manage a ton of money and recycle that money with returns.

87
00:07:02,820 --> 00:07:09,680
I mean, I don't think you could get more of a disparate time than from financial crisis to like COVID.

88
00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:17,460
And then it's, you know, it's the risk capital has been off since the end of COVID, really until the last 12 months.

89
00:07:17,700 --> 00:07:19,520
And even that's been spotty, right?

90
00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:20,780
Biotech's come back.

91
00:07:21,340 --> 00:07:22,800
Obviously, the AI boom.

92
00:07:23,940 --> 00:07:28,220
There's different sectors that are moving, but we don't have a broad market rally.

93
00:07:28,220 --> 00:07:34,260
There's some interesting things going on within the market that has kind of kept it from being broad, right?

94
00:07:34,260 --> 00:07:35,960
There's just a lot of change happening.

95
00:07:36,860 --> 00:07:40,400
Do you think this is over-indexing on the AI boom specifically?

96
00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:43,900
I think that's attracting a lot of capital, right?

97
00:07:43,940 --> 00:07:48,320
And then you have this whole, like, what's happening to the middle management world, right?

98
00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:53,540
Within all these corporations, AI is sort of replacing a lot of the mundane work, right?

99
00:07:53,540 --> 00:08:05,860
As a senior person, how many middle management and junior people do you need when you can just get your information from, you know, a chatbot, right?

100
00:08:06,220 --> 00:08:23,020
And when you have the smartest person within each sector available on an AI engine, at least to start your work and, you know, initially educate you on that, how, you know, how much work do you need from your middle management?

101
00:08:23,020 --> 00:08:24,520
And how much of that can you slice out?

102
00:08:24,820 --> 00:08:26,420
And I think we're seeing that across the board.

103
00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:28,560
And a lot of, you're going to see it in law firms.

104
00:08:28,660 --> 00:08:30,220
You're going to see it in accounting firms, right?

105
00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:34,980
You're going to see it in even companies like Amazon and, you know, all these, you know,

106
00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:36,520
cloud computing companies, right?

107
00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:40,080
You can eliminate a lot of that data analytics because that can just be automated.

108
00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:46,940
So it's a, the economy is kind of trying to figure its way through this.

109
00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:49,260
Employment is trying to figure its way through this.

110
00:08:49,680 --> 00:08:49,780
Right.

111
00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:52,980
Because it affects the different ends of the spectrum differently.

112
00:08:53,020 --> 00:09:02,440
Because I think about here a media company of four or five people, what it's allowed us to do to extend our productivity and efficiency.

113
00:09:02,500 --> 00:09:06,820
It's been miraculous over the last two years, really leaning into it.

114
00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:11,540
But then you have these behemoths with tens of thousands of employees where they're going to meet in the middle.

115
00:09:11,540 --> 00:09:14,720
So I've been very vocal about this.

116
00:09:14,820 --> 00:09:18,820
If you're a small team starting up right now, it's never been a better time to start a business.

117
00:09:18,820 --> 00:09:27,860
But if you're a large corporation with a bunch of headcounts and SG&A, there's going to be some tough conversations moving forward.

118
00:09:28,740 --> 00:09:28,800
Yep.

119
00:09:29,220 --> 00:09:31,200
Like my son runs a 3D printing.

120
00:09:31,300 --> 00:09:31,800
He's like 15.

121
00:09:31,900 --> 00:09:33,640
He runs a 3D printing business out of our basement.

122
00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:39,080
And I could have never even dreamed about doing that, right?

123
00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:40,700
Because everything is automated.

124
00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:46,340
He gets all his own and he can run a full business while in school, right?

125
00:09:46,340 --> 00:09:52,320
Just the ability to leverage that technology and leverage automation, leverage information, right?

126
00:09:52,580 --> 00:09:54,260
He's like, oh, I want to buy a new 3D printing.

127
00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:56,680
Hey, ChatGBT, compare these two models.

128
00:09:56,800 --> 00:09:58,300
Tell me what's better for this and that and that.

129
00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:06,100
And it'll categorize all the areas where different 3D printers are better, different engraving machines are better, right?

130
00:10:06,100 --> 00:10:13,160
from the community it has to the, how you repair it with, you know, uh, YouTube videos and who has

131
00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:17,420
more YouTube videos to be able to make a repair on something or replace a part or whatever.

132
00:10:17,700 --> 00:10:24,100
It's just, it's a different world. And like you were saying, it's not just that you lay people

133
00:10:24,100 --> 00:10:28,540
off. It's that you never hire them in the first place because you can leverage your internal

134
00:10:28,540 --> 00:10:35,940
resources and grow. Yeah. So it's fascinating. That's funny. We had, um, a 15 year old on the

135
00:10:35,940 --> 00:10:41,600
show last week, Stella, she's at the Alpha School in Austin where they're really leaning into AI.

136
00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:48,280
And she was showing her Masterpiece Project, which is some game storyboarding app that'll

137
00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:54,480
eventually become like a gaming application all built with Claude Code. And speaking with her

138
00:10:54,480 --> 00:11:00,320
made me very encouraged for the younger Gen Zs and Gen Alpha because it seems like they're

139
00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:05,920
leaning into it and it's going to be massive for them. Right. They can leverage it. We're

140
00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:09,560
We're not smart enough to be able to do that because we didn't grow up with it.

141
00:11:09,580 --> 00:11:11,060
We're just trying to survive.

142
00:11:12,460 --> 00:11:15,380
Speaking of survival and transitioning to Bitcoins,

143
00:11:15,560 --> 00:11:21,160
I think that's one thing I'm into Bitcoin for.

144
00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:24,580
I think we're in this transition into the digital age,

145
00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:28,680
and we've sort of got to shed the skin of the incumbent system,

146
00:11:28,900 --> 00:11:31,620
a big part of that incumbent system being the financial system,

147
00:11:31,620 --> 00:11:37,660
which is riddled with debts and perverse incentives, depending on where you look.

148
00:11:37,780 --> 00:11:43,140
And I view Bitcoin as a solution to a lot of these problems, particularly the debt issues that exist.

149
00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:46,360
I think we need to recapitalize the system with better collateral.

150
00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:53,620
And obviously, what you're doing in Empree Digital, it seems like you have come to a similar conclusion.

151
00:11:53,620 --> 00:11:59,940
So what led you from what you had been doing to really, I don't want to say drop everything,

152
00:11:59,940 --> 00:12:07,020
but like look at bitcoin and say oh i need to lean into this pretty heavily so i will say out

153
00:12:07,020 --> 00:12:13,600
of the gate you say shed the skin i think that's a really good comparison because uh in this world

154
00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:20,720
that we live in today let's just say tradifies the snake skin that doesn't want to come off

155
00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:26,820
right it's not it's not like the snake skin where they voluntarily shed like here bitcoin's trying

156
00:12:26,820 --> 00:12:32,360
and insert and the skin's like i'm not letting go i'm hanging on to the snake right uh so it's

157
00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:41,180
the transition's tough um because there's a lot of fighting overtly and covertly right i see that

158
00:12:41,180 --> 00:12:48,880
on a daily basis um especially coming from trad fi and understanding how it works um but my our

159
00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:58,140
transition started because for the longest time, we were a registered investment advisor with the

160
00:12:58,140 --> 00:13:04,860
SEC. And SEC was enforcement, enforcement, enforcement. They were going after anyone

161
00:13:04,860 --> 00:13:09,260
in the digital asset world, whether you're doing something right or whether you're doing something

162
00:13:09,260 --> 00:13:14,460
wrong. And like any industry, a lot of people are doing things wrong and some people are doing

163
00:13:14,460 --> 00:13:18,940
things right, but it didn't matter because they just, they had a blanket approach to,

164
00:13:19,580 --> 00:13:24,220
if you're in digital assets, if you're in Bitcoin, if you're doing things within crypto,

165
00:13:24,700 --> 00:13:30,600
you must be doing something wrong. That was kind of the approach. And for us as a registered

166
00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:43,268
investment advisor that could be audited by the SEC you know any given day right They come in every couple of years or every few years and they could do it at any time And you know I didn want to be in the position where I was even having to address that

167
00:13:43,728 --> 00:13:50,048
right? I got enough problems, you know, organizing our business as it was and,

168
00:13:50,048 --> 00:13:53,247
you know, presenting it to the SEC in a way that gets them comfortable.

169
00:13:53,928 --> 00:14:01,888
And then you go and you add this whole thing on, right? And then you just give them this avenue to

170
00:14:01,888 --> 00:14:09,988
just dig and explore and put the radar off. So under Gensler at the SEC, not something that we

171
00:14:09,988 --> 00:14:15,327
were willing to dabble into as much interest as we had in it. And I did struggle with it, to be

172
00:14:15,327 --> 00:14:22,908
fair. I struggled with the purpose. And the purpose is a lot easier to describe when you don't have

173
00:14:22,908 --> 00:14:29,988
all these bureaucratic hurdles, right? Once the bureaucratic hurdles drop and you can actually

174
00:14:29,988 --> 00:14:36,428
see the thesis playing out, which is the ultimate store of value, right? And fighting the debasement

175
00:14:36,428 --> 00:14:42,848
of all these currencies, right? Take away that bureaucratic ceiling and then have that thesis

176
00:14:42,848 --> 00:14:48,808
and starts to look really interesting. And that's when we were like, okay, like administration is

177
00:14:48,808 --> 00:14:54,048
clearly behind this. Gensler's out. All the enforcement people at the SEC were eliminated,

178
00:14:54,048 --> 00:15:00,548
right and everyone even if you were involved in fraud related to crypto you were still getting

179
00:15:00,548 --> 00:15:04,988
closing letters from the sec saying we're no longer pursuing this matter it's closed

180
00:15:04,988 --> 00:15:11,108
right you start seeing stuff like that and you're like okay this this is safe zone for someone like

181
00:15:11,108 --> 00:15:16,567
us who's trying to stay on the straight and narrow and we like it but how can we actually get in it

182
00:15:16,567 --> 00:15:28,188
And the DAT was a very fast way to get a ton of exposure to Bitcoin, you know, kind of overnight, right?

183
00:15:28,188 --> 00:15:35,928
As principles of a fund, as investors for our fund, we thought that they should have exposure to it.

184
00:15:36,008 --> 00:15:37,868
We as individuals wanted exposure to it.

185
00:15:38,587 --> 00:15:40,888
And then we're capital markets guys, right?

186
00:15:40,888 --> 00:15:47,288
Like I started out describing, we do transactions in the public markets, investing in all these public companies.

187
00:15:47,747 --> 00:15:50,567
That's what a digital asset treasury is, right?

188
00:15:50,567 --> 00:16:00,947
It's a capital market strategy to try and cheaply raise money or efficiently raise money in the public markets with all the relationships that we have to add Bitcoin per share.

189
00:16:00,947 --> 00:16:12,508
And if you're right in that sweet spot and you like the Bitcoin asset, it just seemed to make a lot of sense to just kind of take our team.

190
00:16:12,888 --> 00:16:14,747
Don't take the risk of building a new team.

191
00:16:15,168 --> 00:16:16,327
We had our hedge fund team.

192
00:16:16,908 --> 00:16:24,288
Plop the four people in that had the skill set to be able to execute that capital market strategy within the public markets.

193
00:16:24,747 --> 00:16:26,428
And boom, you're off to the races.

194
00:16:27,388 --> 00:16:28,728
Then the trade blew up.

195
00:16:28,728 --> 00:16:33,707
But that's a separate discussion and probably a longer discussion.

196
00:16:58,728 --> 00:16:59,967
and have for a long time,

197
00:17:00,028 --> 00:17:02,168
but haven't taken a step to self-custody

198
00:17:02,168 --> 00:17:03,908
because they're worried about the complications

199
00:17:03,908 --> 00:17:05,987
of setting up a private public key pair,

200
00:17:06,108 --> 00:17:07,467
securing that seed phrase,

201
00:17:07,668 --> 00:17:09,168
setting up a pin, setting up a passphrase.

202
00:17:09,287 --> 00:17:11,987
Again, BitKey makes it easy to use, hard to lose.

203
00:17:12,188 --> 00:17:13,987
It's the easiest zero to one step,

204
00:17:14,188 --> 00:17:15,947
your first step to self-custody.

205
00:17:15,947 --> 00:17:17,787
If you have friends and family on the exchanges

206
00:17:17,787 --> 00:17:18,707
who haven't moved it off,

207
00:17:18,848 --> 00:17:19,727
tell them to pick up a BitKey.

208
00:17:19,888 --> 00:17:20,967
Go to BitKey.world,

209
00:17:21,128 --> 00:17:25,368
use the key TFTC20 at checkout for 20% off your order.

210
00:17:25,888 --> 00:17:28,467
That's BitKey.world, code TFTC20.

211
00:17:28,727 --> 00:17:31,447
What's up, Freaks? This was brought to you by our good friends at Unchained,

212
00:17:31,547 --> 00:17:35,328
who brings you this message. Is Bitcoin risky or is ignoring it the greater risk?

213
00:17:35,508 --> 00:17:39,248
On January 7th at 10 a.m. Central, join Unchained and Parker Lewis for

214
00:17:39,248 --> 00:17:43,727
Bitcoin is the Greatest Asymmetry, an exclusive online video premiere exploring the forces behind

215
00:17:43,727 --> 00:17:48,028
Bitcoin's risk-reward profile. Originally presented at the Old Parkland Debate Chamber in Dallas,

216
00:17:48,227 --> 00:17:52,148
Parker breaks down why the probability of its success matters more than short-term price

217
00:17:52,148 --> 00:17:56,307
movements, how monetary design shapes outcomes, and what today's market and policy environment

218
00:17:56,307 --> 00:18:00,547
may mean for the years ahead. If you want a clear framework for thinking about Bitcoin's opportunity,

219
00:18:00,928 --> 00:18:06,447
don't miss this video premiere. Register now at unchained.com slash TFTC. That's unchained.com

220
00:18:06,447 --> 00:18:11,888
slash TFTC. Let's dive into it because I think it ties in. I think there's a lot of broad

221
00:18:11,888 --> 00:18:20,568
skepticism of the digital asset treasury play, obviously, since really going back to beginning

222
00:18:20,568 --> 00:18:25,447
of the year when strategy started coming off its highs.

223
00:18:25,868 --> 00:18:32,828
And then obviously in the summer when things really accelerated and now probably 28% to

224
00:18:32,828 --> 00:18:34,987
30% off Bitcoin's all-time highs.

225
00:18:35,088 --> 00:18:40,227
People are asking the question, was this just a fad or is there something here?

226
00:18:40,227 --> 00:18:47,707
And so I think starting with the debt strategy at a high level, does it actually make sense?

227
00:18:47,888 --> 00:18:48,928
Obviously, I think you do.

228
00:18:49,047 --> 00:18:50,068
Why does it make sense?

229
00:18:50,568 --> 00:18:53,528
to deploy a strategy like this,

230
00:18:53,547 --> 00:18:57,307
and then we can get into the sort of incentives

231
00:18:57,307 --> 00:19:00,188
that have been introduced with individuals and companies

232
00:19:00,188 --> 00:19:05,787
like Empree Digital leaning into this.

233
00:19:05,947 --> 00:19:09,787
Is it viewed as a threat to TradFi,

234
00:19:09,787 --> 00:19:15,368
and are there moves being made to quell the threat?

235
00:19:17,388 --> 00:19:18,648
Yep. Yep.

236
00:19:20,568 --> 00:19:30,648
does the, that thesis make sense? Um, it does under very specific circumstances, right?

237
00:19:31,307 --> 00:19:37,368
Like I understood that this was a big fat trade when we started on the journey, like from, from,

238
00:19:37,547 --> 00:19:43,828
I literally, from when I came up with the idea to when we closed in the $500 million, it was six

239
00:19:43,828 --> 00:19:50,248
weeks. Like I, we banged it out, right? We had the thesis, we identified the bankers, we identified

240
00:19:50,248 --> 00:19:56,227
the public company that we would go into. And then we put our roadshow together, our presentation

241
00:19:56,227 --> 00:20:02,848
materials together, refined the strategy, figured out where we wanted to live within the debt world.

242
00:20:03,268 --> 00:20:09,447
Because a lot of the stuff we were looking at from the hedge fund side was everyone seemed to

243
00:20:09,447 --> 00:20:14,848
have a lot of expenses associated with their debt, whether it's this asset manager agreements that

244
00:20:14,848 --> 00:20:21,447
were like between like 1% and 3% for doing what? Like the public company was outsourcing

245
00:20:21,447 --> 00:20:29,388
the management of that asset to a third party for some exorbitant amount of fees.

246
00:20:29,828 --> 00:20:32,848
That didn't make sense for us because you're like, as the public company, that's your job,

247
00:20:33,188 --> 00:20:37,947
right? You're the fiduciary over that asset, manage that asset to the best of your ability.

248
00:20:37,947 --> 00:20:40,467
And if you don't have those capabilities, probably shouldn't be in the strategy,

249
00:20:40,467 --> 00:20:44,028
right? And you got to keep all those expenses down. You can't have big corporate overhead.

250
00:20:44,028 --> 00:20:45,787
You can't have big salaries, right?

251
00:20:45,828 --> 00:20:47,688
So we came in really cheap, right?

252
00:20:47,748 --> 00:20:48,408
Low salaries.

253
00:20:48,408 --> 00:20:50,928
And we're put $25 million from our hedge fund in.

254
00:20:50,987 --> 00:20:54,748
So we're like, okay, now we are all aligned with the investors and we got to run this

255
00:20:54,748 --> 00:20:56,388
thing really efficiently, right?

256
00:20:56,428 --> 00:20:59,547
Keep the corporate overhead down, the salaries down, keep the option packages.

257
00:20:59,547 --> 00:21:01,108
So you're not issuing more options.

258
00:21:01,348 --> 00:21:02,668
You're not milking this.

259
00:21:02,828 --> 00:21:06,348
This is not like a lifestyle public company, like a lot of these smaller public companies

260
00:21:06,348 --> 00:21:06,668
are.

261
00:21:07,227 --> 00:21:09,807
We're like, so when does this make sense?

262
00:21:09,807 --> 00:21:34,207
And I think it makes sense. And we did it because we felt that we could make it make sense. And a lot of them are just too bloated. And when the trade collapses, right, when you come near NAV or below NAV, how are you servicing all those expenses? Because are you selling Bitcoin, right? Because you can't sell your stock anymore because that's, you know, you're diluting Bitcoin per share. And are you selling Bitcoin?

263
00:21:34,207 --> 00:21:40,148
you're slowly going to bleed out Bitcoin to service the public company. That's not a good

264
00:21:40,148 --> 00:21:45,207
scenario. Do you have the internal capabilities to be able to trade derivatives and get some yield

265
00:21:45,207 --> 00:21:52,467
on that stack? Can you sell calls? Can you sell puts, collect that premium? Can you do put spreads

266
00:21:52,467 --> 00:21:58,787
and call spreads? And can you play that game without risking your stack and actually generating

267
00:21:58,787 --> 00:22:05,188
value for your investors. And I think if you can't do all those things, then it's a stupid trade.

268
00:22:05,508 --> 00:22:10,388
It doesn't make sense. And even if you can do all those things, who knows if the market even

269
00:22:10,388 --> 00:22:19,668
cares. Maybe they just rather own Bitcoin directly. So we remain with the thesis that

270
00:22:19,668 --> 00:22:26,428
I can protect your Bitcoin because I can have multi-custodial relationships. I can have it in

271
00:22:26,428 --> 00:22:31,627
cold storage. I can have insurance at each custodian. I can have an overlaying insurance

272
00:22:31,627 --> 00:22:38,568
product that protects the Bitcoin generally. I can trade derivatives around it to generate cash

273
00:22:38,568 --> 00:22:43,268
flow to offset corporate expenses. I can do capital markets transactions like buy my stock

274
00:22:43,268 --> 00:22:49,748
back to add Bitcoin per share and modestly leverage against that stack. So there's a lot

275
00:22:49,748 --> 00:22:56,528
of tools that you can pull from. And I think if the public debts are set up like that, where you

276
00:22:56,528 --> 00:23:01,867
have the flexibility to use your stack to borrow against it, where it's not leaned up right out of

277
00:23:01,867 --> 00:23:05,928
the gate, where you have a senior secured convert against it, and it's sitting in some account

278
00:23:05,928 --> 00:23:09,648
control agreement where you can't touch it, you can't post it for collateral. Because as you

279
00:23:09,648 --> 00:23:13,707
probably know, if you're going to trade on Darabit, you're going to trade with these market

280
00:23:13,707 --> 00:23:19,388
makers like a Falcon X or a Gemini, you got to post your BTC. And if your BTC is stuck in an

281
00:23:19,388 --> 00:23:22,548
account control agreement, you can't post it. So you can't trade derivatives around it. So you're

282
00:23:22,548 --> 00:23:28,207
kind of like stuck. So if you've got the right setup, I think it can make sense. I think a lot

283
00:23:28,207 --> 00:23:32,928
of people get nervous about holding their Bitcoin. So I can hold it and protect it for it. I can trade

284
00:23:32,928 --> 00:23:38,568
derivatives around and then I can do capital markets transactions to add Bitcoin per share.

285
00:23:38,568 --> 00:23:47,748
If I can do all that, then I think you've got something, but you also want the asset to work,

286
00:23:47,748 --> 00:23:55,288
right underlying the whole thesis is yes it's got to work right and so you got to believe in bitcoin

287
00:23:55,288 --> 00:24:02,408
and you got to start there and that's we started there and then we built it behind it and

288
00:24:02,408 --> 00:24:11,548
you know it has been a difficult asset for the last call it three months right started to break

289
00:24:11,548 --> 00:24:13,807
a lot of people's confidence in the asset.

290
00:24:14,928 --> 00:24:18,768
And I think that's a topic worth exploring

291
00:24:18,768 --> 00:24:21,908
is we got all these tailwinds,

292
00:24:22,008 --> 00:24:23,227
but something's not right.

293
00:24:24,088 --> 00:24:25,707
Yeah, a lot of tailwinds.

294
00:24:25,768 --> 00:24:26,707
It was interesting because we posted,

295
00:24:26,707 --> 00:24:29,627
it doesn't make sense to a lot of people

296
00:24:29,627 --> 00:24:30,528
what's happening.

297
00:24:30,668 --> 00:24:31,668
Obviously, the administration,

298
00:24:32,127 --> 00:24:33,348
you mentioned the SEC,

299
00:24:34,408 --> 00:24:35,828
the bureaucratic morass

300
00:24:35,828 --> 00:24:38,388
that the industry has been subjected to

301
00:24:38,388 --> 00:24:41,348
for many years seems to be behind us.

302
00:24:41,548 --> 00:24:44,608
we want to be the Bitcoin crypto capital of the world.

303
00:24:45,227 --> 00:24:47,727
Executive order around a Bitcoin strategic reserve.

304
00:24:48,048 --> 00:24:52,428
You have banks announcing, it seems like daily at this point,

305
00:24:52,548 --> 00:24:56,748
some sort of integration with Bitcoin-focused products,

306
00:24:57,048 --> 00:24:59,307
allowing their customers to buy, trade,

307
00:25:00,068 --> 00:25:02,127
and ultimately use Bitcoin as collateral.

308
00:25:03,447 --> 00:25:06,268
The ETF, despite the fact that Bitcoin was down

309
00:25:06,268 --> 00:25:09,467
however many percent in November

310
00:25:09,467 --> 00:25:15,207
And for much of this month, it still has net inflows outside the US.

311
00:25:15,307 --> 00:25:25,848
You're seeing a bunch of positive headlines in relation to the mining industry and UAE and other countries buying exposure to Bitcoin.

312
00:25:26,627 --> 00:25:30,008
And to your point, a lot of people are sitting here scratching their heads.

313
00:25:30,148 --> 00:25:33,467
Like, why isn't the price reacting appropriately?

314
00:25:33,467 --> 00:25:39,288
appropriately and obviously you have um this confluence of events too where the price did

315
00:25:39,288 --> 00:25:44,568
run up to 125 000 we saw looking at the on-chain data it looks like a lot of people have been

316
00:25:44,568 --> 00:25:49,288
holding bitcoin for over a decade said okay market's liquid it's valuable enough i'm gonna

317
00:25:49,288 --> 00:25:56,467
take some chips off the table famous so we had galaxy facilitate the sale of 80 000 bitcoin for

318
00:25:56,467 --> 00:26:02,908
some estate sale that was uh demanded by um the estate owner who had passed away i'm pretty sure

319
00:26:02,908 --> 00:26:08,447
and so I think we're at this point where it seems like it's all systems go but the price

320
00:26:08,447 --> 00:26:16,008
is not it's not uh reflecting it's not reflected in the price going up yeah if I were to you know

321
00:26:16,008 --> 00:26:20,788
do what you just did articulate if we didn't have the benefit of being able to see the price right

322
00:26:20,788 --> 00:26:25,288
and I would articulate all those reasons that you just articulated genius sacks table coins and

323
00:26:25,288 --> 00:26:33,008
top of all of that. And I said to you, okay, so start of the year, Bitcoin was at 100,000,

324
00:26:33,467 --> 00:26:39,888
or Trump administration comes in, Bitcoin moves 90, 100,000. And I were to tell you all these

325
00:26:39,888 --> 00:26:43,928
things that happened over the last 12 months, you would say, oh my God, it had to have doubled,

326
00:26:43,928 --> 00:26:51,447
something like it had all those tailwinds. But don't forget the efficient market theory.

327
00:26:51,447 --> 00:26:58,588
right as a trad fi guy the efficient market theory basically says that all that stuff is

328
00:26:58,588 --> 00:27:04,807
priced in in advance right so that hundred thousand dollar price that you saw back at the

329
00:27:04,807 --> 00:27:09,068
beginning of the year right that was pricing in all this great stuff that was likely going to

330
00:27:09,068 --> 00:27:22,495
happen because of the position the trump administration had taken so you could have easily predicted that all these things were going to happen and some of them were delayed like the legislation you know uh you know through uh the Senate has been slowed down

331
00:27:22,555 --> 00:27:26,655
It's not going to get done before the end of the year. And the SEC coming out and saying that it

332
00:27:26,655 --> 00:27:30,215
was going to get done before the end of the year. That was, it's just not how the congressional

333
00:27:30,215 --> 00:27:35,395
process works. It's not that fast. Right. But I think people were hoping for that, but,

334
00:27:35,395 --> 00:27:42,235
so there was some stuff that was slowed, but a lot of stuff happened. Uh, and you could say,

335
00:27:42,235 --> 00:27:48,235
that that was predicted back then. So we're sort of where you would have expected from a

336
00:27:49,015 --> 00:27:56,395
tailwinds perspective to be, right? But then you have this whole thing happening under the surface,

337
00:27:56,515 --> 00:28:03,915
right? Which is the banks are scared to death of this asset. And I truly believe that because

338
00:28:03,915 --> 00:28:10,915
if you just play it out, right? Banks rely on deposits, right? Deposits, that's their fuel for

339
00:28:10,915 --> 00:28:15,735
everything they do, right? They got to get spreads. They got to collect that money.

340
00:28:15,735 --> 00:28:19,355
And then they got to lend that money through all these different mechanisms, right?

341
00:28:20,055 --> 00:28:25,655
Whether it's financing someone's jet or financing someone's home, right? Or financing someone's

342
00:28:25,655 --> 00:28:31,035
apartment complex that they're developing, right? That spread is that that's their bread and butter.

343
00:28:31,855 --> 00:28:35,215
Then they have the prop training desk and all other stuff they're allowed to take from a risk

344
00:28:35,215 --> 00:28:39,275
perspective. That's a little higher on the risk spectrum, but the bread and butter is that lending

345
00:28:39,275 --> 00:28:44,795
business and that lending business needs those assets. And if you can control your own wallet,

346
00:28:45,295 --> 00:28:52,295
right? And we've been now transacting in Bitcoin for a few months actively, right? Because we got

347
00:28:52,295 --> 00:28:56,695
the big stack and we can move it around between wallets and custodians and places where we're

348
00:28:56,695 --> 00:29:02,615
posting as collateral for derivatives trading. It is so elegant and beautiful to move around,

349
00:29:02,995 --> 00:29:08,615
right? You get your wallet address, you do your little test of 0.00001, you send it over,

350
00:29:08,615 --> 00:29:14,895
it's received. You can see all the history in that wallet that's ever happened, right? All open

351
00:29:14,895 --> 00:29:21,475
ledger stuff. And boom, Sunday night at 8 PM, I can move a hundred million dollars from one wallet

352
00:29:21,475 --> 00:29:26,975
to the next. I can move it from Galaxy over to Falcon X. Like that's amazing. I've been operating

353
00:29:26,975 --> 00:29:32,455
within the confines of the banking system and the Fed system for since I started my career where

354
00:29:32,455 --> 00:29:38,215
we're doing wires, right? And I got to get my wire set up and I got to get it released before

355
00:29:38,215 --> 00:29:42,815
the Fed cutoff and the bank's internal cutoff policies at 4 p.m. even though the Fed's closed

356
00:29:42,815 --> 00:29:49,615
at 6 p.m. and then I'm stuck from Friday at you know 6 till Monday morning when I can't really do

357
00:29:49,615 --> 00:29:55,335
anything so and you know you're financing transactions where it's really difficult for

358
00:29:55,335 --> 00:29:59,515
me to send a wire over 5 million bucks right it's getting a ton of scrutiny from the bank

359
00:29:59,515 --> 00:30:04,595
and it's going through this whole process and I just don't even know when my wire is going to get

360
00:30:04,595 --> 00:30:08,895
out if it's going to be able to get there for the closing of the transaction. And so internally,

361
00:30:08,895 --> 00:30:13,675
we have all these procedures in place to make sure we're set up for closing, that we're wiring

362
00:30:13,675 --> 00:30:20,255
a day early so we don't mess it up. All that stuff is out the window with Bitcoin. It's just

363
00:30:20,255 --> 00:30:27,075
such an elegant asset to move around. It puts all the control within the owner of that asset.

364
00:30:27,075 --> 00:30:31,875
and that's a real threat to the banks, right?

365
00:30:31,995 --> 00:30:34,055
And then as soon as the insurance

366
00:30:34,055 --> 00:30:35,555
starts to make more sense, right?

367
00:30:35,595 --> 00:30:37,375
And then you get the charters issued

368
00:30:37,375 --> 00:30:38,955
so all these custodians can exist

369
00:30:38,955 --> 00:30:42,395
without filing individual applications

370
00:30:42,395 --> 00:30:43,415
on the state level

371
00:30:43,415 --> 00:30:44,795
so you can get the federal charter

372
00:30:44,795 --> 00:30:46,275
and then those federal charters,

373
00:30:46,415 --> 00:30:48,215
although now you can't borrow at the Fed window

374
00:30:48,215 --> 00:30:49,895
and you can't lend on those five charters

375
00:30:49,895 --> 00:30:51,675
that were issued to the crypto custodians,

376
00:30:52,075 --> 00:30:53,355
eventually you'll probably be able to.

377
00:30:53,855 --> 00:30:56,135
And then it starts to look

378
00:30:56,135 --> 00:31:00,735
much more like a traditional banking system, right? And Fidelity, you know, they're, they're

379
00:31:00,735 --> 00:31:04,275
TradFi, right? They're within crypto, they're TradFi and now they have a bank charter.

380
00:31:05,415 --> 00:31:13,195
So they're in a really good spot. Seems to me that they could be, they've already done a really

381
00:31:13,195 --> 00:31:16,475
good job at gathering assets within their brokerage accounts. So they'll be able to

382
00:31:16,475 --> 00:31:21,755
gather assets within their, within their crypto custodian accounts and do it on more of a

383
00:31:21,755 --> 00:31:30,295
traditional system that people are accustomed to so it's a threat it's real and i think i checked

384
00:31:30,295 --> 00:31:34,955
last week i think fidelia has something like 7.2 trillion in assets under management so to your

385
00:31:34,955 --> 00:31:41,495
point they can definitely bring it in and so and they span both trad fi and crypto like they're in

386
00:31:41,495 --> 00:31:47,415
they're in a sweet spot and they've been in bitcoin for 11 years now 2014 yeah yeah had them

387
00:31:47,415 --> 00:31:55,235
in so you know what they're doing and so you say the banks are scared and as a part of the list of

388
00:31:55,235 --> 00:32:00,195
headlines that i listed off earlier was that banks are implementing it do you think

389
00:32:00,195 --> 00:32:07,275
they are in an oh shit like this is happening uh bitcoin's not going anywhere and so we need to

390
00:32:07,275 --> 00:32:14,475
basically stave off the the sort of native bitcoin and crypto companies long enough while we implement

391
00:32:14,475 --> 00:32:20,215
everything so that we can capture some of this market? Or do you think they still wanted to go

392
00:32:20,215 --> 00:32:29,555
away? I think it's the latter, but they're pretending it's the former. And I'm not a

393
00:32:29,555 --> 00:32:36,575
conspiracy theorist guy. I just, I see it happening, right? They're out front saying

394
00:32:36,575 --> 00:32:40,735
they're supportive of it, just like they said they were supportive of the new charters.

395
00:32:40,735 --> 00:32:47,115
but behind the scenes they're trying to kill it in every way they can right lobbying against it

396
00:32:47,115 --> 00:32:53,735
fighting you know anyone who is in support of it and trying to you know convince them that it's

397
00:32:53,735 --> 00:32:59,055
it's risky right the things they're saying publicly right versus the things they're saying

398
00:32:59,055 --> 00:33:03,895
privately like they're literally telling people that are fans of it that it's too risky of an

399
00:33:03,895 --> 00:33:10,015
asset that it's not appropriate for you know the masses to own and there shouldn't be charters that

400
00:33:10,015 --> 00:33:14,535
help facilitate this because you're really, you know, you're allowing people to take risks that

401
00:33:14,535 --> 00:33:19,215
they don't understand. But publicly they're saying, oh, we're building blockchain. We're

402
00:33:19,215 --> 00:33:25,895
going to allow our FAs to buy it. Right. So the disparity between those statements that are

403
00:33:25,895 --> 00:33:30,675
happening in the public versus the private, I think that tells you everything you need to know.

404
00:33:30,955 --> 00:33:37,115
Right. They don't want to be the idiots who publicly were bashing it when the train has

405
00:33:37,115 --> 00:33:41,395
left the station and it's probably happening, but they also want to slow it down and kill it as,

406
00:33:41,815 --> 00:33:45,915
you know, and be like, I told you so, right. We originally told you so we tried to get on board,

407
00:33:45,955 --> 00:33:51,675
but we told you this was risky and look what happened to micro strategy, right? That thing

408
00:33:51,675 --> 00:33:55,695
got crushed. Everyone was a believer and that thing got crushed and you know, you shouldn't

409
00:33:55,695 --> 00:34:02,215
have been owning that. Right. So in hindsight and the really powerful institutions with tons

410
00:34:02,215 --> 00:34:09,095
of capital to be able to move stuff so they can make these Monday morning calls when they were

411
00:34:09,095 --> 00:34:16,275
actually the ones on the field affecting the place. They can say, oh, I told you MSTR was risky.

412
00:34:16,755 --> 00:34:22,115
We brought the margin requirement up to 95%. That's why we did that because it was risky.

413
00:34:22,255 --> 00:34:27,475
It's like, no, no, no. The margin requirement going to 95% is what caused the asset to go down

414
00:34:27,475 --> 00:34:32,935
and why you can now say that it was risky and you made the right move.

415
00:34:33,335 --> 00:34:34,095
I told you so.

416
00:34:34,275 --> 00:34:38,355
It's like, okay, you were pulling the puppet strings that made the puppet collapse

417
00:34:38,355 --> 00:34:41,075
and you said the puppet was going to collapse.

418
00:34:42,015 --> 00:34:43,955
So it's a lot of that.

419
00:34:44,315 --> 00:34:46,315
Let's dive into this specifically.

420
00:34:46,955 --> 00:34:53,475
We've been talking offline for the last few weeks

421
00:34:53,475 --> 00:35:00,175
And I think that's one thing that made me really excited to have you on the show is because you've seen this.

422
00:35:00,275 --> 00:35:06,835
You know how these large capital allocators can use their large amounts of capital to influence things.

423
00:35:06,995 --> 00:35:12,275
And I think everybody is looking at MicroStrategy this year and going, oh, gosh, this is terrible.

424
00:35:12,335 --> 00:35:17,715
But to your point about the margin requirements, I think that was a clear sign to me at least.

425
00:35:17,715 --> 00:35:19,135
Like, hey, they don't like this.

426
00:35:19,135 --> 00:35:25,075
why would they just ninja launch a massive increase of margin requirements overnight?

427
00:35:25,655 --> 00:35:33,975
And so what effect does that increase have on people that not only own MSTR,

428
00:35:34,295 --> 00:35:39,435
but had at that point been using it as collateral for a loan?

429
00:35:40,495 --> 00:35:40,595
Yeah.

430
00:35:41,115 --> 00:35:45,595
So if you were a longtime Bitcoiner and MSTR came along,

431
00:35:45,595 --> 00:35:51,195
And you said, oh, wow, now I can, instead of just owning Bitcoin, I can sort of be a little bit levered to Bitcoin.

432
00:35:51,295 --> 00:35:52,255
So I can own MSTR.

433
00:35:52,415 --> 00:35:58,855
I can still love my Bitcoin and own Bitcoin, but I can also own MSTR and I can borrow against it.

434
00:35:58,855 --> 00:36:06,795
Because you can post it in your brokerage account, in a margin account, and you can borrow cash against it and you can buy more MSTR.

435
00:36:07,095 --> 00:36:10,975
So you can effectively use the bank's money to get more exposure to MSTR.

436
00:36:10,975 --> 00:36:24,675
On top of the fact that they have the preferreds and the converts out there where they're effectively levering their own equity to it by using the preferred capital to juice the equity returns that you can get on the Bitcoin.

437
00:36:25,615 --> 00:36:32,335
So it was a great thesis for the Bitcoiners because it just modestly increases in value.

438
00:36:32,335 --> 00:36:34,015
It's a flywheel.

439
00:36:34,015 --> 00:36:53,915
And so I totally get why all the Bitcoiners were really into that debt. And it also made them vulnerable because inside these big institutions, you can see how much money you're lending against MSTR in the aggregate.

440
00:36:53,915 --> 00:37:01,015
it, right? You can say, you know, there's 10 million shares held of MSTR with inside JP Morgan.

441
00:37:01,015 --> 00:37:08,795
And you can say, okay, we've lent 5 billion against it. If we increase the margin requirement

442
00:37:08,795 --> 00:37:17,435
from 50 to 95, you got to basically people got to post, you know, $4.9 billion, $4.8 billion.

443
00:37:17,435 --> 00:37:23,355
So you know the effect that things like that will have on the asset.

444
00:37:24,255 --> 00:37:30,335
And they called it a risk department call.

445
00:37:30,855 --> 00:37:34,435
The risk department decided that they had to bump up that merger requirement.

446
00:37:34,615 --> 00:37:37,315
But that doesn't make any sense.

447
00:37:37,375 --> 00:37:42,815
It doesn't reconcile with anything that MSTR was doing at the time or Bitcoin was doing.

448
00:37:42,815 --> 00:38:03,895
Right. But then because you have so many Bitcoiners that own MSTR and people associate Michael Saylor with Bitcoin, when that thing starts to come down, right, when it goes from over 400 to under 200, you're sort of breaking people's confidence in Bitcoin.

449
00:38:03,895 --> 00:38:17,895
And I think that was part of the overall strategy was to hurt MSTR, hurt Bitcoin, hurt the confidence and thesis in the asset, bring the vol back up, right?

450
00:38:18,055 --> 00:38:28,895
And then put this narrative out there that seller could potentially have to sell Bitcoin and they own a large percentage of the Bitcoin that's issued.

451
00:38:28,895 --> 00:38:32,455
So then start to panic people, right?

452
00:38:32,515 --> 00:38:34,815
And then it's selling begets selling begets selling.

453
00:38:34,935 --> 00:38:37,475
And that's how history always plays out.

454
00:38:38,535 --> 00:38:40,235
No one wants to catch the falling knife.

455
00:38:40,655 --> 00:38:42,035
No, but let's dive into this too.

456
00:38:42,115 --> 00:38:43,115
The risk department too.

457
00:38:43,215 --> 00:38:46,035
It's like, okay, our risk team has determined

458
00:38:46,035 --> 00:38:49,235
that we need to increase the margin requirement.

459
00:38:49,495 --> 00:38:51,395
Just playing through the thought experiment.

460
00:38:51,515 --> 00:38:55,255
Okay, what are they protecting their clients from?

461
00:38:55,255 --> 00:39:01,455
It is a case micro strategy goes down and they don't want them to have to sell their positions.

462
00:39:01,675 --> 00:39:18,435
But conversely, if that's your whole goal of managing risk for your clients is to make it so they don't lose their assets in the form of this security, the stock, the shares in this company isn't increasing the margin requirement.

463
00:39:18,435 --> 00:39:19,855
And doesn't that end up with the same goal?

464
00:39:19,915 --> 00:39:23,595
Because you're just going to have to force people to sell or post collateral.

465
00:39:23,775 --> 00:39:27,315
And if they don't have collateral to post, they're going to have to sell down their positions.

466
00:39:28,375 --> 00:39:28,815
That's the irony.

467
00:39:29,375 --> 00:39:29,615
Yeah.

468
00:39:29,855 --> 00:39:30,075
Yeah.

469
00:39:30,155 --> 00:39:31,375
That's the irony of the whole thing.

470
00:39:31,375 --> 00:39:33,775
And let's be clear.

471
00:39:34,235 --> 00:39:38,675
They're not increasing the margin requirement to protect their clients.

472
00:39:39,275 --> 00:39:43,815
When a risk department increases the margin requirement, they're doing it to protect their own balance sheet.

473
00:39:43,815 --> 00:39:52,775
because they say, okay, if we go from 50 to 95, that means the stock can basically go down 90%

474
00:39:52,775 --> 00:39:58,035
before we, 95% before we start to get in problems with the loans that we have out against it,

475
00:39:58,035 --> 00:40:06,195
right? So if they move it to 95%, they're effectively expecting a 90% move in the stock,

476
00:40:06,315 --> 00:40:12,755
right? Which that only happens if the asset collapses too. And were they predicting a 90%

477
00:40:12,755 --> 00:40:22,475
move in Bitcoin down, predicting it goes back to 10,000, right? That just didn't seem to be

478
00:40:22,475 --> 00:40:27,775
on the table. None of it seemed to be on the table, right? The stock was pretty stable.

479
00:40:28,095 --> 00:40:31,495
Bitcoin, the underlying asset was at the lowest of all as it had ever been at,

480
00:40:31,775 --> 00:40:40,975
right? On a trailing period. MSTR's volatility was declining, not increasing, right? You would

481
00:40:40,975 --> 00:40:44,095
increase margin requirement when the vols go up

482
00:40:44,095 --> 00:40:47,095
because the higher probability of a big move.

483
00:40:47,095 --> 00:41:05,163
Underlying asset vols down MSTR stock vols down Didn make sense Yeah didn make any sense There no risk model where unless they have some AI bot that you know is predicting things that no one ever seen in

484
00:41:05,163 --> 00:41:10,663
their life, which AI doesn't do that. AI can only work off data that exists. That's why it's not a

485
00:41:10,663 --> 00:41:15,243
good predictive model, right? And yeah, that's where you need humans.

486
00:41:15,843 --> 00:41:20,883
Sup freaks. Have you noticed that governments have become more despotic? They want to surveil

487
00:41:20,883 --> 00:41:24,203
more. They want to take more of your data. They want to follow you around the internet as much as

488
00:41:24,203 --> 00:41:28,323
possible so that they can control your speech, control what you do. It's imperative in times

489
00:41:28,323 --> 00:41:32,923
like this to make sure that you're running a VPN as you're surfing the web, as we used to say back

490
00:41:32,923 --> 00:41:39,063
in the 90s. And it's more imperative that you use the right VPN, a VPN that cannot log because of

491
00:41:39,063 --> 00:41:43,563
the way that it's designed. And that's why we have partnered with Obscura. That is our official VPN

492
00:41:43,563 --> 00:41:49,983
here at TFTC built by a Bitcoiner, Carl Dung, for Bitcoiners focused on privacy. You can pay

493
00:41:49,983 --> 00:41:56,002
Bitcoin over the lightning. So not only are you private while you're perusing the web with Obscura,

494
00:41:56,143 --> 00:41:59,743
but when you actually set up an account, you can acquire that account privately by paying

495
00:41:59,743 --> 00:42:04,703
in Bitcoin over the lightning network. Do not be complacent when it comes to protecting your

496
00:42:04,703 --> 00:42:11,463
privacy on the internet. Go to Obscura.net, set up an Obscura account, use the code TFTC

497
00:42:11,463 --> 00:42:17,063
for 25% off. And when I say account, you just get a token. It's a string of token. It's not

498
00:42:17,063 --> 00:42:22,282
connected to your identity at all. Token sign up, pay with Bitcoin, completely private.

499
00:42:22,863 --> 00:42:28,082
Turn on Obscura, surf the web privately. Obscura.net, use the code TFTC for 25% off.

500
00:42:28,383 --> 00:42:32,463
What's up, freaks? I've been seeing a lot of YouTube comments. Marty, your skin looks so good.

501
00:42:32,683 --> 00:42:37,623
You're looking fit these days. How are you doing it? Well, number one, I'm going to the gym more,

502
00:42:38,243 --> 00:42:43,863
trying to get my swell on, trying to be a good example for my young son to fit,

503
00:42:43,863 --> 00:42:48,423
healthy dad. But part of that is having a good regimen, particularly staying hydrated,

504
00:42:48,563 --> 00:42:53,762
making sure I have the right electrolytes and salts in my body. That is why I use salt of the

505
00:42:53,762 --> 00:43:00,102
earth. I drink probably three of these a day with one packet of salt of the earth. I'm liking the

506
00:43:00,102 --> 00:43:05,483
pink lemonade right now. It's my flavor of choice. This is their creatine. I've added this to my

507
00:43:05,483 --> 00:43:10,502
regimen. They have it in these packets as well. It makes it extremely convenient if you're traveling.

508
00:43:10,502 --> 00:43:15,782
You want to work out while you're traveling, but you don't want to be carrying a white bag of powder going through TSA.

509
00:43:16,023 --> 00:43:18,903
It's very, very nerve wracking at times.

510
00:43:18,963 --> 00:43:21,123
You have to explain, hey, it's not what you think it is.

511
00:43:21,143 --> 00:43:21,683
It's creatine.

512
00:43:21,743 --> 00:43:22,782
I'm trying to get my swell on.

513
00:43:24,163 --> 00:43:25,302
Make sure you're staying hydrated.

514
00:43:26,043 --> 00:43:28,063
I have become addicted to these.

515
00:43:28,163 --> 00:43:31,163
It's made my life a lot better.

516
00:43:31,563 --> 00:43:35,563
I can supplement this for coffee in the morning and be energized right away.

517
00:43:35,983 --> 00:43:36,843
I can supplement.

518
00:43:37,363 --> 00:43:39,543
I can bring the creatine wherever I need to.

519
00:43:39,543 --> 00:43:42,543
I just put a couple packets in here before I head to the gym,

520
00:43:42,663 --> 00:43:44,423
bring this to the gym, drink it out of a glass bottle,

521
00:43:44,523 --> 00:43:48,203
make sure I'm not injecting any microplastics into my body.

522
00:43:48,623 --> 00:43:51,463
Go to drinkssauté.com, use the code TFTC,

523
00:43:52,183 --> 00:43:54,302
and you'll get 15% off anything in the store.

524
00:43:54,483 --> 00:43:56,723
That's drinkssauté.com, code TFTC.

525
00:43:57,243 --> 00:44:02,363
I guess my other question is, like, how long is that just one shot?

526
00:44:02,363 --> 00:44:05,463
Is that, like, one arrow in the quiver that they have?

527
00:44:05,463 --> 00:44:10,163
because I imagine you bump up margin requirements to 95%,

528
00:44:10,163 --> 00:44:19,243
and then anybody who was engaged in sort of using MSTR as margin to get leverage,

529
00:44:20,023 --> 00:44:22,262
you'd have sort of the books clear,

530
00:44:22,823 --> 00:44:25,523
you'd ultimately find another equilibrium,

531
00:44:26,082 --> 00:44:27,943
and then go from there.

532
00:44:28,043 --> 00:44:31,223
People who were overextended get wiped out.

533
00:44:31,502 --> 00:44:34,323
People who were not overextended are fine.

534
00:44:34,323 --> 00:44:37,903
and you just sort of find an equilibrium and things can reset from there.

535
00:44:38,243 --> 00:44:40,923
Or is that how you view this playing out?

536
00:44:40,983 --> 00:44:46,543
Or is this like a sustained quote-unquote attack, for lack of a better term?

537
00:44:47,443 --> 00:44:51,082
I think it was their first, not their first.

538
00:44:51,223 --> 00:44:54,183
I think it was one of their more public attacks on the asset

539
00:44:54,183 --> 00:44:59,023
where they thought they could really have a financial impact

540
00:44:59,023 --> 00:45:00,623
and an emotional impact.

541
00:45:00,623 --> 00:45:02,663
and the emotional impact.

542
00:45:03,063 --> 00:45:05,483
You cannot discount how powerful that is.

543
00:45:05,663 --> 00:45:07,963
People, big Bitcoin believers

544
00:45:07,963 --> 00:45:10,863
start to question everything.

545
00:45:11,582 --> 00:45:13,802
Is this asset subject to manipulation?

546
00:45:14,963 --> 00:45:18,082
And am I exposed to that?

547
00:45:18,502 --> 00:45:22,963
And just starting to conspiracy theories swirling.

548
00:45:23,563 --> 00:45:24,482
Has it been hacked?

549
00:45:24,602 --> 00:45:27,563
Is there more asset out there than we understand?

550
00:45:27,563 --> 00:45:34,623
sand, like all these crazy things were happening because they tapped into people's confidence in it.

551
00:45:34,743 --> 00:45:37,823
Once the confidence breaks, right? Because that's what all these things are,

552
00:45:37,823 --> 00:45:42,943
right? At the end of the day, any currency, right? What's the USD worth?

553
00:45:44,043 --> 00:45:49,243
Worth what people are willing to believe it's worth, right? Because you've got a huge leverage

554
00:45:49,243 --> 00:45:53,223
balance sheet that, you know, if that was any corporation, it would be bankrupt,

555
00:45:53,223 --> 00:46:00,443
right but usd is the best currency in the world so it's just confidence and people say well you

556
00:46:00,443 --> 00:46:07,102
know bitcoin is you can't articulate what it's worth it's just you know digital a digital asset

557
00:46:07,102 --> 00:46:13,763
it has no actual value no currency has actual value like people who say that are just missing

558
00:46:13,763 --> 00:46:20,263
the mark it's all confidence so jp morgan adopting that theory i think was like okay

559
00:46:20,263 --> 00:46:34,443
So if we break confidence in it, like any currency, whether it's Japan or Argentina, if you break that confidence in that currency, then you damage the value of that currency.

560
00:46:34,943 --> 00:46:37,623
And that doesn't go away overnight.

561
00:46:38,163 --> 00:46:41,423
So I think that they took a big shot across the bow.

562
00:46:42,323 --> 00:46:44,302
They probably got a leak in the boat.

563
00:46:45,423 --> 00:46:50,123
And then they kind of were in there trying to make that hole a little bigger.

564
00:46:50,263 --> 00:46:55,043
by saying, you know, going off the NASDAQ 100, going to get kicked out of the MSCI,

565
00:46:55,463 --> 00:47:01,663
like pulling back, you know, pulling old, you know, articles and data and statements

566
00:47:01,663 --> 00:47:04,383
and kind of making them in the headlines.

567
00:47:04,383 --> 00:47:07,723
Like that's part of that coordinated attack.

568
00:47:07,723 --> 00:47:15,563
Like why is an analyst at JP Morgan talking about it being removed out of the index

569
00:47:15,563 --> 00:47:21,002
and talking about MSTR as a risky bet when he doesn't even cover the company.

570
00:47:21,002 --> 00:47:28,102
Like, pretty sure the analysts are pretty busy writing research and publishing on companies

571
00:47:28,102 --> 00:47:31,743
and doing update notes on the universe of companies they cover.

572
00:47:33,302 --> 00:47:39,763
But yeah, he's going off on some MSTR attack for a company that has no research coverage at JPMorgan.

573
00:47:39,763 --> 00:47:46,663
right so it's just and it's at the end of the day that move was detrimental to their own clients

574
00:47:46,663 --> 00:47:54,143
they wiped out billions of dollars of value in their own clients portfolios right that was the

575
00:47:54,143 --> 00:48:01,282
ultimate result of it they basically attacked the stock by attacking their own clients because

576
00:48:01,282 --> 00:48:07,863
they knew that they couldn't post the billion dollars of collateral so i think it's just

577
00:48:07,863 --> 00:48:11,403
confidence, confidence, confidence. And they, that, that was what they were. That's what they

578
00:48:11,403 --> 00:48:20,282
were firing at. How do you counterattack this? Um, you call them out. It's the only way to do it.

579
00:48:20,643 --> 00:48:24,883
You got to go to the mat with them. I think that's the, it's the only, and a lot of people

580
00:48:24,883 --> 00:48:31,623
are afraid to do that. Right. Cause it's a big, massive institution and people have exposure.

581
00:48:31,843 --> 00:48:37,363
Like we, as a fund, we have accounts with JP Morgan, right? We have accounts all over the

582
00:48:37,363 --> 00:48:41,903
street, but we were prepared to get the phone call saying, we're going to shut your account down.

583
00:48:42,403 --> 00:48:50,663
Right. Okay. Shut my account down. I'll post about that too. Right. So I think that's the only way

584
00:48:50,663 --> 00:48:55,883
you beat them is you have to have a voice. Uh, you have to know what you're talking about, right?

585
00:48:55,903 --> 00:49:01,102
Cause if you're wrong, they'll destroy you. But if you're right, how do they really deal with you?

586
00:49:01,102 --> 00:49:06,923
Like as a TradFi guy, I'm like, okay, I know enough to be dangerous about how all of this works.

587
00:49:06,923 --> 00:49:15,123
I've seen this in different asset classes for my entire career, right? These big banks attack

588
00:49:15,123 --> 00:49:25,203
based on the knowledge they have under their umbrella, right? There's so many examples of

589
00:49:25,203 --> 00:49:30,602
when banks have attacked hedge funds, right? Hedge funds used to generally custody all their

590
00:49:30,602 --> 00:49:39,683
assets at one institution until in the late 90s, early 2000s, the prime brokers or the banks were

591
00:49:39,683 --> 00:49:47,802
figuring out that we see exactly what this fund's exposure is, right? And they're my custodian,

592
00:49:47,943 --> 00:49:52,482
but they can use that information against me. And there are so many examples where they did,

593
00:49:53,102 --> 00:49:59,982
right? There's a case out there where basically a fund got taken down by a top five institution

594
00:49:59,982 --> 00:50:06,443
because they did a similar thing. They basically were shorting all the stocks that were in that

595
00:50:06,443 --> 00:50:12,723
fund's portfolio and they were smaller names so they could just lay on them and short them and

596
00:50:12,723 --> 00:50:17,943
short them and short them. And then they wouldn't increase the margin requirement on those securities

597
00:50:17,943 --> 00:50:24,523
because they said, they're under a lot of pressure, the vol's up on these things, and

598
00:50:24,523 --> 00:50:28,263
we got to increase the margin requirement. The fund was like, well, we don't have the capital

599
00:50:28,263 --> 00:50:34,802
to post for that. You are our prime broker. You know that because we keep all of our assets with

600
00:50:34,802 --> 00:50:42,482
you. And the response from the bank was, okay, we'll come back to you with a solution. Their

601
00:50:42,482 --> 00:50:49,243
solution was, we will bid you for your entire portfolio below market, right? Now you have that

602
00:50:49,243 --> 00:50:53,263
bank that's short, and this is a public case. You have that bank that's short, you have the hedge

603
00:50:53,263 --> 00:50:59,523
fund that is long, all that stuff. And the bank to cover their shorts, if they can buy it down here,

604
00:50:59,723 --> 00:51:05,043
right? They can pay below what they shorted it. That's great trade for them. And so they can

605
00:51:05,043 --> 00:51:11,002
basically go to that fund and say, you can't meet your margin requirement. We'll bid you for your

606
00:51:11,002 --> 00:51:16,982
whole portfolio. Just take you out of it and fix your problems. And so that's what happened.

607
00:51:17,302 --> 00:51:22,002
They ended up taking them out, right? They shorted it up here. They bought it down here

608
00:51:22,002 --> 00:51:30,843
from the fund, funds wiped out and this bank had a great trade, right? Shorted it, took the positions

609
00:51:30,843 --> 00:51:36,443
from the fund, wiped the fund out, bought it all really cheap, wrote it back up, right? That,

610
00:51:36,943 --> 00:51:43,743
I mean, that happens all over the place. And that is why all these funds now have multiple

611
00:51:43,743 --> 00:51:46,802
custodians, right? We keep your shorts in one place, keep your longs in another place,

612
00:51:46,802 --> 00:51:51,863
you trade your derivatives in another place. No one can see, no one has transparency into what

613
00:51:51,863 --> 00:51:54,482
your overall positions are so no one could take advantage of them.

614
00:51:54,482 --> 00:51:59,923
And that was sort of what people started learning through your instance like

615
00:51:59,923 --> 00:52:03,302
that. And they're really manipulative,

616
00:52:03,302 --> 00:52:05,423
but if you read your prime brokerage agreements,

617
00:52:05,802 --> 00:52:10,623
most of it's allowed because you ultimately give them control when you take on

618
00:52:10,623 --> 00:52:14,623
margin. Right. So that's the prime.

619
00:52:15,183 --> 00:52:15,563
Well,

620
00:52:15,602 --> 00:52:21,683
that was another detail that emerged from JP Morgan's posh ring towards

621
00:52:21,683 --> 00:52:28,102
MSTR and the margin requirements too, is that there was a bunch of people stuck in that trade

622
00:52:28,102 --> 00:52:33,002
who said, well, if you're going to raise the margin requirement to 95%, I can go over to

623
00:52:33,002 --> 00:52:38,782
Fidelity or someone else who has not raised the margin requirement. And I would like to do that.

624
00:52:38,782 --> 00:52:45,523
Can you please send my shares over to this broker? And they were not able to do so in a timely

625
00:52:45,523 --> 00:52:52,143
manner, which although you explain it, this would signal that, um, they didn't have the

626
00:52:52,143 --> 00:52:54,723
shares because they were locked up in, in short positions.

627
00:52:54,963 --> 00:52:55,443
Yeah.

628
00:52:55,963 --> 00:52:56,223
Yeah.

629
00:52:56,643 --> 00:53:02,663
And we'll, we'll never know exactly, you know, the nature of those shorts, but there,

630
00:53:02,663 --> 00:53:08,523
there are multiple incidents that I know of where that happened.

631
00:53:08,943 --> 00:53:13,823
And one very specifically, uh, where I got all the details, I think you're familiar with

632
00:53:13,823 --> 00:53:20,563
a similar one where this guy who had a pretty decent position of MSTR at JP Morgan, when they

633
00:53:20,563 --> 00:53:24,903
increased the margin requirement, he's like, I can't meet that, but I'll move my stock out to

634
00:53:24,903 --> 00:53:30,403
a place that doesn't have margin requirements that are that ridiculous. So at that point,

635
00:53:30,463 --> 00:53:36,363
it's in JP Morgan's interest to not let those shares leave, right? Because that kind of hurts

636
00:53:36,363 --> 00:53:41,683
their thesis. And two, maybe they can't let them leave because they don't even have them.

637
00:53:41,683 --> 00:53:45,223
because either they put a short on themselves or they're shorted,

638
00:53:45,523 --> 00:53:50,863
or they lent it out to some hedge fund on the street that's willing to pay for it,

639
00:53:51,082 --> 00:53:53,002
and they can't get it back.

640
00:53:53,082 --> 00:53:53,763
They don't want to recall.

641
00:53:53,923 --> 00:53:55,903
These prime brokers never want to recall.

642
00:53:56,043 --> 00:53:59,043
They never want to have a track record of recalling shares that they lent out

643
00:53:59,043 --> 00:54:01,102
because then whoever put that trade on,

644
00:54:01,163 --> 00:54:03,523
it blows up that trade at the time when they want it to work.

645
00:54:04,243 --> 00:54:09,743
So they basically just try to hold out as long as they can

646
00:54:09,743 --> 00:54:16,243
and try to find stock from other places to be able to deliver out on behalf of clients that are requesting to do transfers.

647
00:54:17,102 --> 00:54:24,923
So there's a lot of information to be gleaned, like them not being able to deliver the stock out,

648
00:54:25,643 --> 00:54:32,963
regardless of the reason, the exact reason why, it tells you they were either directly short or indirectly short.

649
00:54:33,403 --> 00:54:34,282
They're short the stock.

650
00:54:34,848 --> 00:54:41,148
have the stock to deliver. So it's curious, increase the margin requirement, don't have

651
00:54:41,148 --> 00:54:49,328
the stock to deliver. Those two things pair together, plus making statements down the line

652
00:54:49,328 --> 00:54:53,668
after you already wounded the animal, right? After the ship has a leak and it's starting to sink,

653
00:54:54,088 --> 00:55:01,648
and then you start to hit it with MSCI stuff and NASDAQ stuff. It's just too much, right? Just

654
00:55:01,648 --> 00:55:03,548
too much to be a coincidence.

655
00:55:04,868 --> 00:55:04,988
Yeah.

656
00:55:05,268 --> 00:55:07,848
Where was that statement a month

657
00:55:07,848 --> 00:55:09,228
ago when that MSCI

658
00:55:09,228 --> 00:55:10,488
report came out?

659
00:55:11,868 --> 00:55:13,248
It didn't do him any good then.

660
00:55:13,708 --> 00:55:14,768
No. Right?

661
00:55:15,768 --> 00:55:16,408
Do you think

662
00:55:16,408 --> 00:55:19,828
again, how do we

663
00:55:19,828 --> 00:55:21,848
get out of it? Do you think people just need to move

664
00:55:21,848 --> 00:55:23,868
their money off of J.P.

665
00:55:23,928 --> 00:55:25,988
Morgan if they think this is

666
00:55:25,988 --> 00:55:26,548
a

667
00:55:26,548 --> 00:55:29,988
believable thesis that they're attacking

668
00:55:29,988 --> 00:55:35,988
this and sort of just take their control of the margin specifically away from them.

669
00:55:36,828 --> 00:55:42,388
Yeah, I do. I think people should move their stock out of MSTR, out of JP Morgan, move their

670
00:55:42,388 --> 00:55:48,888
MSTR stock out. I think, you know, places like Fidelity or, you know, I think they, although

671
00:55:48,888 --> 00:55:56,348
they are a TradFi institution at the core and at their founding, I think they are one of the more,

672
00:55:56,348 --> 00:56:00,228
crypto intelligent firms.

673
00:56:00,968 --> 00:56:02,988
And I think they could benefit

674
00:56:02,988 --> 00:56:05,828
from the big guys taking a hit.

675
00:56:06,308 --> 00:56:09,768
So it seems like a good, safe place to go

676
00:56:09,768 --> 00:56:11,988
because they seem to be on the right side of things

677
00:56:11,988 --> 00:56:15,488
as opposed to the more just deposit collectors.

678
00:56:16,528 --> 00:56:18,668
Fidelity is less of a deposit collector.

679
00:56:18,828 --> 00:56:20,288
It's a brokerage firm, right?

680
00:56:20,828 --> 00:56:22,588
So the deposit collectors are the ones

681
00:56:22,588 --> 00:56:23,248
that are most vulnerable.

682
00:56:23,408 --> 00:56:25,248
So I think those are the places

683
00:56:25,248 --> 00:56:27,908
where you move the asset out.

684
00:56:27,908 --> 00:56:32,588
I don't know if you want to fight this trend, right?

685
00:56:32,908 --> 00:56:36,108
Because although like we spoke about,

686
00:56:36,248 --> 00:56:40,188
the banks are publicly saying that they like blockchain,

687
00:56:40,388 --> 00:56:41,148
they like Bitcoin,

688
00:56:41,608 --> 00:56:43,488
the systems that they're building,

689
00:56:43,948 --> 00:56:46,028
that's not really blockchain, right?

690
00:56:46,488 --> 00:56:51,228
That's not a decentralized network.

691
00:56:52,308 --> 00:56:54,228
It's a centralized network.

692
00:56:54,228 --> 00:56:56,948
It's a centralized blockchain that they control.

693
00:56:58,188 --> 00:57:04,788
They're calling a blockchain to be on trend, but it's just a ledger system that JP Morgan will control.

694
00:57:05,408 --> 00:57:07,588
And it has some blockchain technology, right?

695
00:57:09,048 --> 00:57:14,188
Whereas the Bitcoin network is a true decentralized network.

696
00:57:14,188 --> 00:57:22,308
and so that they want to say they're in favor,

697
00:57:22,548 --> 00:57:26,628
but the things they're doing are just like everything else they've ever done.

698
00:57:26,988 --> 00:57:29,848
Control the asset, control the knowledge, right?

699
00:57:29,928 --> 00:57:34,928
Be the center of the system so you can control the system

700
00:57:34,928 --> 00:57:39,208
and so you can be aware of what's on the system

701
00:57:39,208 --> 00:57:41,568
because it's part of your network, right?

702
00:57:41,568 --> 00:57:53,288
It's not, it's totally disingenuous to suggest that they're adopting, you know, a true blockchain philosophy of a decentralized network.

703
00:57:53,408 --> 00:57:55,368
That's not what's happening at all.

704
00:57:55,848 --> 00:57:57,968
They're saying smart contracts and loans.

705
00:57:58,708 --> 00:57:58,888
Yeah.

706
00:57:59,348 --> 00:57:59,668
It's bullshit.

707
00:58:00,208 --> 00:58:00,908
It is.

708
00:58:01,328 --> 00:58:01,788
And it's funny.

709
00:58:01,908 --> 00:58:03,488
It's old as new again in this space.

710
00:58:03,488 --> 00:58:08,168
Digital ledger technology is back in the news, back in vogue.

711
00:58:09,188 --> 00:58:10,228
But it's too.

712
00:58:10,228 --> 00:58:14,608
So interesting topic too,

713
00:58:14,708 --> 00:58:15,028
which is like,

714
00:58:15,048 --> 00:58:15,748
it seems clear to me,

715
00:58:15,768 --> 00:58:16,468
I'm going to go back to like,

716
00:58:16,668 --> 00:58:18,648
the system needs to be re-collateralized with better collateral.

717
00:58:18,768 --> 00:58:20,188
Bitcoin is the best collateral,

718
00:58:20,308 --> 00:58:22,928
most pristine collateral that's ever existed,

719
00:58:23,248 --> 00:58:23,688
scarce,

720
00:58:24,548 --> 00:58:25,268
divisible.

721
00:58:25,488 --> 00:58:26,508
As you mentioned earlier,

722
00:58:26,988 --> 00:58:27,488
trade 24,

723
00:58:27,628 --> 00:58:27,828
seven,

724
00:58:27,928 --> 00:58:28,368
365.

725
00:58:29,028 --> 00:58:35,008
It is not collateral like real estate or even shares in an individual

726
00:58:35,008 --> 00:58:36,368
company,

727
00:58:36,368 --> 00:58:37,368
which come with their own,

728
00:58:37,628 --> 00:58:40,088
which come with their own hair.

729
00:58:40,228 --> 00:58:42,308
It's very hard to move a house.

730
00:58:43,188 --> 00:58:46,508
The value of a share in an individual company

731
00:58:46,508 --> 00:58:49,468
is dictated on how well that business is being run

732
00:58:49,468 --> 00:58:51,668
and how profitable they are at any given point in time

733
00:58:51,668 --> 00:58:55,548
where Bitcoin is just this neutral reserve asset

734
00:58:55,548 --> 00:58:59,388
that is relatively simple and dumb, which is a good thing.

735
00:59:00,128 --> 00:59:05,088
And many people, myself included, think there is room

736
00:59:05,088 --> 00:59:08,868
for Bitcoin to intersect with traditional finance,

737
00:59:08,868 --> 00:59:20,768
I think particularly in structured credit where you use Bitcoin as collateral to help you buy a house or get a loan to invest in a business or something like that.

738
00:59:20,768 --> 00:59:49,848
And I think that's sort of the period we're in right now is we're sort of feeling out where this intersection makes sense and who are actually the good actors within this intersection that are going to build products the right way that actually give individual Bitcoin holders value and increased utility of their Bitcoin to actually be able to do things in the real world.

739
00:59:49,848 --> 01:00:01,608
And that's where I think the J.P. Morgan positioning towards MSTR and Bitcoin by extension is really unfortunate because there's massive opportunity here if done the right way.

740
01:00:01,688 --> 01:00:15,348
And it will come down to I think everybody's going to be hyper cautious of rehypothecation and how these products are structured is going to be very important and should determine whether or not you interact with them in the first place.

741
01:00:15,348 --> 01:00:18,188
but there is a way to do it right.

742
01:00:18,928 --> 01:00:30,248
Particularly with like multi escrow and being able to validate that your Bitcoin is where you think it is at any given point in time Like there is a way to do this 100 Will it happen And who actually going

743
01:00:30,248 --> 01:00:36,128
to drive that? Yeah. Yeah. We've seen that because we borrow against our Bitcoin a little bit to buy

744
01:00:36,128 --> 01:00:44,208
our stock back. And if you, you know, you can enter into all these different structures of

745
01:00:44,208 --> 01:00:49,288
these loan agreements. And like you say, multi-sig account control agreement where you have a wallet,

746
01:00:49,288 --> 01:00:55,008
right and you have the capital provider and you have the you know lender right because because

747
01:00:55,008 --> 01:00:59,648
it's an alternative market the capital provider is not necessarily the lender right you have the

748
01:00:59,648 --> 01:01:05,008
lender who's getting their capital from you know some bank or some foreign institution or whatever

749
01:01:05,008 --> 01:01:10,468
and then they're lending it to the borrower and but you should have an account control agreement

750
01:01:10,468 --> 01:01:15,908
that's a tri-party between the capital provider the lender and the borrower and that bitcoin

751
01:01:15,908 --> 01:01:20,608
should be locked in that account, uh, in that wallet and not move. And as you said, you can

752
01:01:20,608 --> 01:01:26,828
monitor the activity in any wallet address, right? So there are very good ways to do it without

753
01:01:26,828 --> 01:01:33,808
letting that Bitcoin get down to that capital provider and then him, you know, re-hypothecating

754
01:01:33,808 --> 01:01:39,408
it to, you know, 10 different parties because he re-hypothecates it and then they re-hypothecate

755
01:01:39,408 --> 01:01:40,668
and then they re-hypothecate it.

756
01:01:41,308 --> 01:01:45,228
And as the person who's Bitcoin that actually is,

757
01:01:45,728 --> 01:01:48,828
you sort of start to lose control over that, right?

758
01:01:48,848 --> 01:01:50,528
You could have a bankruptcy, you know,

759
01:01:50,528 --> 01:01:52,468
10 steps down the road

760
01:01:52,468 --> 01:01:55,668
and your Bitcoin could fall into that bankrupt entity.

761
01:01:56,168 --> 01:01:57,028
And then you say, okay, yeah,

762
01:01:57,028 --> 01:01:58,388
but I could get it back from the person

763
01:01:58,388 --> 01:01:59,588
who lent it to them,

764
01:01:59,948 --> 01:02:00,928
but then they file bankruptcy

765
01:02:00,928 --> 01:02:03,188
or I get it back from the person who lent it to them

766
01:02:03,188 --> 01:02:05,268
and then they file bankruptcy, right?

767
01:02:05,348 --> 01:02:06,768
So it's, you know,

768
01:02:06,768 --> 01:02:13,768
once the cascade of liquidations or bankruptcies start to happen, it's very tough. I mean,

769
01:02:13,768 --> 01:02:18,508
they were unscrambling the Bear Stearns situation, the Lehman Brothers situation,

770
01:02:18,708 --> 01:02:27,108
Lehman for 10 years. Bear Stearns, that is why they saved it because they knew that unscrambling

771
01:02:27,108 --> 01:02:31,528
those eggs when you have all those different swaps and collateral agreements and all that

772
01:02:31,528 --> 01:02:39,808
mess out there in an operating institution could take 10 years, right? So same things for Bitcoin.

773
01:02:40,228 --> 01:02:45,788
Once you have that network out there, if you're just allowing that Bitcoin to move around and

774
01:02:45,788 --> 01:02:50,248
allowing those assets to move around, you got to do it the right way. You got to do it smart.

775
01:02:50,328 --> 01:02:55,768
You got to learn from the mistakes that TradSpy has made over the last 100 years.

776
01:02:56,868 --> 01:03:01,088
So account control agreements, but you got to have a sophisticated party who understands

777
01:03:01,088 --> 01:03:04,268
what they're negotiating.

778
01:03:05,928 --> 01:03:09,488
Maybe it's like legislation where you have smart contracts

779
01:03:09,488 --> 01:03:12,868
that just dictate how it works and you literally prevent

780
01:03:12,868 --> 01:03:17,528
rehypothecation, stuff like that, where you can protect the system a bit.

781
01:03:18,128 --> 01:03:21,228
Because like when you lend stock out, when you lend

782
01:03:21,228 --> 01:03:25,228
Bitcoin out, you lend one Bitcoin, it gets rehypothecated, rehypothecated,

783
01:03:25,308 --> 01:03:29,068
rehypothecated. That Bitcoin can be sold 10 times.

784
01:03:29,068 --> 01:03:33,188
short, short, short, short, short, short, right? So although there's only one Bitcoin,

785
01:03:33,528 --> 01:03:39,248
it cycled through the system and created the selling of 10, right? And that happens in equities.

786
01:03:40,688 --> 01:03:47,588
So re-hypothecation is dangerous. And posting as collateral when people can do that is dangerous,

787
01:03:48,028 --> 01:03:54,248
right? They're not aligned with the borrower. No. And there's no lender of last resort in

788
01:03:54,248 --> 01:04:00,808
bitcoin too somebody lose i mean we learned this in 21 22 with three arrows right gemini and their

789
01:04:00,808 --> 01:04:07,108
yield products with genesis lending it out to people obviously block five celsius ftx go down

790
01:04:07,108 --> 01:04:13,948
the list like there is you got it a very high potential i mean the counterparty risk isn't

791
01:04:13,948 --> 01:04:18,568
worth it at the end of the day that's like i'm not even sure how you get your hands around what

792
01:04:18,568 --> 01:04:22,988
the counterparty risk is when you can re-ipothecate because you don't even know who ultimately has it

793
01:04:22,988 --> 01:04:23,988
Yeah.

794
01:04:24,448 --> 01:04:27,348
And that's what, like, these Tri-Pari agreements,

795
01:04:27,508 --> 01:04:31,248
I think they need to be table stakes for anybody doing it.

796
01:04:31,248 --> 01:04:32,288
Yeah, they should be industry standard.

797
01:04:32,748 --> 01:04:33,268
They should be.

798
01:04:33,728 --> 01:04:36,768
And that's what, like, companies like Unchained, Debify,

799
01:04:37,028 --> 01:04:39,668
that's what they're working to bring to the market

800
01:04:39,668 --> 01:04:40,488
and the private sector.

801
01:04:40,608 --> 01:04:44,368
But that's my biggest worry as the banking sector

802
01:04:44,368 --> 01:04:47,528
is at least feigning interest in getting in.

803
01:04:47,528 --> 01:04:52,248
Are they just going to port their rehypothecation engine

804
01:04:52,248 --> 01:04:54,448
in equities onto Bitcoin

805
01:04:54,448 --> 01:04:57,628
and their end clients are none the wiser.

806
01:04:58,208 --> 01:05:00,308
And I think we should demand the transparency

807
01:05:00,308 --> 01:05:04,948
and the sort of products that are possible

808
01:05:04,948 --> 01:05:07,608
with these multi-sig trilateral agreements.

809
01:05:07,828 --> 01:05:09,228
Like if you're not using this,

810
01:05:09,308 --> 01:05:10,788
like I'm not going to use your product.

811
01:05:11,808 --> 01:05:13,368
Right, right, right.

812
01:05:13,608 --> 01:05:17,408
And I'm not sure how you would draft it

813
01:05:17,408 --> 01:05:19,188
into legislation other than preventing it,

814
01:05:19,248 --> 01:05:21,088
but do you really want to, you know,

815
01:05:21,088 --> 01:05:27,068
have bureaucracy you know dictate the terms of these agreements i don't know the answer to that

816
01:05:27,068 --> 01:05:34,908
but i i think people have to be wiser to the different mechanisms and why hypothecation

817
01:05:34,908 --> 01:05:41,968
re-hypothecation is dangerous uh and all these like when we started negotiating our agreements

818
01:05:41,968 --> 01:05:43,248
the

819
01:05:43,248 --> 01:05:46,228
most clear

820
01:05:46,228 --> 01:05:50,348
tell about the value

821
01:05:50,348 --> 01:05:52,128
of re-hypothecation

822
01:05:52,128 --> 01:05:54,108
to the people who are lending us

823
01:05:54,108 --> 01:05:56,368
money against our Bitcoin is that

824
01:05:56,368 --> 01:05:58,448
if you allow

825
01:05:58,448 --> 01:05:59,948
if you do it in an ACA

826
01:05:59,948 --> 01:06:02,108
it's

827
01:06:02,108 --> 01:06:04,488
10.5%

828
01:06:04,488 --> 01:06:06,388
interest. If you

829
01:06:06,388 --> 01:06:08,448
do it such that we can

830
01:06:08,448 --> 01:06:23,568
hypothecate and re it we do 8 interest Right So as the consumer you like oh I don care what they do with it at all I don want to pay the other 2 right I don want to pay like 40 more or 20 more

831
01:06:24,368 --> 01:06:26,468
That, I don't really care

832
01:06:26,468 --> 01:06:30,088
because I'm saving the 2% on a big asset.

833
01:06:31,688 --> 01:06:33,828
I'll save the money, right?

834
01:06:34,368 --> 01:06:38,488
But in that 2% is a message, right?

835
01:06:38,488 --> 01:06:45,028
which is what are they doing with it that they want it so bad that they'll give it to you for

836
01:06:45,028 --> 01:06:51,428
two percent less right and that's that's where you got to be wary if they're if they're if they're

837
01:06:51,428 --> 01:06:55,488
making more money than that which they are otherwise they wouldn't give you that discount

838
01:06:55,488 --> 01:07:02,668
then how are they doing that and how is that gonna hurt me yeah right as as the borrower

839
01:07:02,668 --> 01:07:08,888
and so that's the message yeah it's a very strong message that people don't pick up on

840
01:07:08,888 --> 01:07:14,748
either and to your point about legislation um i don't think it needs to go that path either i

841
01:07:14,748 --> 01:07:17,528
think it's going to be more dictated by the market like you need something like a fidelity

842
01:07:17,528 --> 01:07:24,368
the brand cachet there's a fidelity um to step out and say hey no like this is how we're doing it

843
01:07:24,368 --> 01:07:28,788
yeah this is the way to do it if you're pledging bitcoin as collateral here's where it's going to

844
01:07:28,788 --> 01:07:34,128
day and here's how it's going to work and you can validate that it's not being re-hypothecated

845
01:07:34,128 --> 01:07:41,768
um that is i think the ideal path for forcing the market to to adopt this what i would deem to be

846
01:07:41,768 --> 01:07:50,628
i mean actually objectively safer market structure yeah what uh we're ending the year here it's

847
01:07:50,628 --> 01:07:52,928
December 22nd.

848
01:07:52,968 --> 01:07:54,488
This will be released on the 29th.

849
01:07:54,548 --> 01:07:57,668
So leading up to New Year's Eve,

850
01:07:58,228 --> 01:08:02,808
obviously it's been a year of scratches, bruises,

851
01:08:03,268 --> 01:08:07,148
punches to the face for the Bitcoin market.

852
01:08:07,548 --> 01:08:10,508
What are you looking forward to in 2026?

853
01:08:10,688 --> 01:08:12,748
Do you think we're going to continue on this trend

854
01:08:12,748 --> 01:08:14,548
or do you think the tailwinds are simply too strong

855
01:08:14,548 --> 01:08:17,768
that the punches have been eaten

856
01:08:17,768 --> 01:08:19,968
or we're getting back on our feet

857
01:08:19,968 --> 01:08:22,608
and 2026 is looking like a good year.

858
01:08:22,668 --> 01:08:25,908
How are you viewing Bitcoin in 2026?

859
01:08:27,268 --> 01:08:31,888
So there are still more tailwinds, right?

860
01:08:32,248 --> 01:08:35,088
Also, because of the efficient market theory,

861
01:08:35,088 --> 01:08:38,268
a lot of them are understood and probably priced in, right?

862
01:08:38,708 --> 01:08:41,368
But I think the one that's not priced in

863
01:08:41,368 --> 01:08:45,788
is you get legislation through Senate, right?

864
01:08:45,788 --> 01:08:47,888
And you have a true framework

865
01:08:47,888 --> 01:08:57,128
where digital assets, hopefully specifically large digital assets like Bitcoin, maybe Ethereum will

866
01:08:57,128 --> 01:09:03,748
fall in it, maybe Solana will fall in it, where there is just a very defined framework for them

867
01:09:03,748 --> 01:09:10,168
to exist within the system. And once that happens, I think there will be more broad adoption,

868
01:09:10,328 --> 01:09:14,528
right? Because at the end of the day, there's still a very, very small percentage of the

869
01:09:14,528 --> 01:09:21,408
world consumer that owns Bitcoin. Very small. Outside the US, I don't think there's any

870
01:09:21,408 --> 01:09:30,088
country that's above 5%. And the US is still arguably between 15 and 20 for any ownership

871
01:09:30,088 --> 01:09:38,548
of any digital asset whatsoever. So there's still a long way to go. But I think the catalyst that

872
01:09:38,548 --> 01:09:45,368
really gets it going and breaks all of the naysayers is a massive buyer. And there's no

873
01:09:45,368 --> 01:09:51,468
more massive buyer than U.S. Treasury and treasuries around the world. If the legislation

874
01:09:51,468 --> 01:09:58,688
goes through, I think that'll happen. I think there will be, right now, U.S. can own it.

875
01:09:58,868 --> 01:10:05,088
If they seize it, they don't have to sell it. New Hampshire, same. But if they actually

876
01:10:05,088 --> 01:10:13,488
acquire it, right? As part of a reserve where they're saying five, 10% of the treasury value

877
01:10:13,488 --> 01:10:20,588
should be in digital assets or Bitcoin or whatever, then that's massive buying, right? And then

878
01:10:20,588 --> 01:10:28,148
other jurisdictions around the world will follow, right? That's just the nature of the beast.

879
01:10:28,148 --> 01:10:32,788
and then you should really start to see the assets stabilize.

880
01:10:34,188 --> 01:10:38,828
If the legislation happens in Q1 or Q2,

881
01:10:38,908 --> 01:10:41,108
I could see that happening in Q3 or Q4.

882
01:10:41,668 --> 01:10:43,908
I think that's in the administration's interest.

883
01:10:44,208 --> 01:10:48,428
It's in their interest financially, personally, right?

884
01:10:48,428 --> 01:10:50,928
And it's a large part of the way this administration works.

885
01:10:51,948 --> 01:10:55,028
And then I actually think it's in the interest of the country

886
01:10:55,028 --> 01:10:57,008
and many countries around the world

887
01:10:57,008 --> 01:11:00,248
because it will stabilize their economy, right?

888
01:11:00,928 --> 01:11:06,408
I mean, you can get rid of this whole inflation disaster,

889
01:11:06,588 --> 01:11:09,188
all this currency debasement, right?

890
01:11:09,188 --> 01:11:12,888
If you owned one USD in 1920, right?

891
01:11:13,288 --> 01:11:16,588
By 2020, it lost 96.6% of its value.

892
01:11:19,768 --> 01:11:22,128
That's shocking, right?

893
01:11:22,988 --> 01:11:26,088
When you look at inflation that way,

894
01:11:26,088 --> 01:11:34,108
you really understand what's happening and if you have a fixed asset uh then you can really

895
01:11:34,108 --> 01:11:39,308
stabilize everything and i think if we can get there that's when we go to the next level like

896
01:11:39,308 --> 01:11:47,388
that's when this asset can really move uh and i don't think that's priced in okay strategic reserve

897
01:11:47,388 --> 01:11:56,028
market structure it's i mean it seems like the uh the tailwinds of that the late tailwinds

898
01:11:56,028 --> 01:11:56,728
begin to bubble up.

899
01:11:56,808 --> 01:12:16,588
I mean the UAE stepping in I think don have any hard information on this but just perceptively looking at some of the headlines and having been at conferences around the world where some government officials attend It seems like everybody on the geopolitical stage at least is sort of looking behind

900
01:12:16,588 --> 01:12:19,948
their shoulder at others and saying, OK, who's going to be first to do this?

901
01:12:20,068 --> 01:12:25,968
And that's another black swan positive tailwind is if you have some country, it's like, OK,

902
01:12:25,968 --> 01:12:26,988
I'm not going to wait for the US.

903
01:12:26,988 --> 01:12:28,248
I want to go first.

904
01:12:28,248 --> 01:12:32,908
and the environment as such,

905
01:12:33,088 --> 01:12:36,708
the pressure to do that is rising.

906
01:12:36,908 --> 01:12:37,808
I don't think it's going away.

907
01:12:38,768 --> 01:12:39,928
I mean, the thesis is there.

908
01:12:40,248 --> 01:12:40,988
I mean, Argentina,

909
01:12:41,868 --> 01:12:45,868
they've been chasing their currency

910
01:12:45,868 --> 01:12:48,908
for the benefit of their citizens for decades,

911
01:12:49,288 --> 01:12:52,588
and this could be a really quick fix for them

912
01:12:52,588 --> 01:12:54,508
to just stabilize it, right?

913
01:12:54,908 --> 01:12:58,188
Instead of making your currency based off of

914
01:12:58,248 --> 01:13:07,688
gold to like peg it to bitcoin it'll work yeah you can just peg it to bitcoin well they're starting

915
01:13:07,688 --> 01:13:12,508
can't be more volatile than their currency you can see like they're starting with bitcoin mining i

916
01:13:12,508 --> 01:13:19,588
know there's government initiatives to um survey how mining can can be incorporated into their

917
01:13:19,588 --> 01:13:24,728
electricity system down there who knows what happens with venezuela um obviously tensions

918
01:13:24,728 --> 01:13:27,748
are rising there, but it's a very oil and gas rich nation.

919
01:13:28,128 --> 01:13:31,408
If you have the Madura regime fall,

920
01:13:32,448 --> 01:13:36,968
whether it's naturally the will of the people

921
01:13:36,968 --> 01:13:40,508
or some regime change, who's going to replace them?

922
01:13:40,648 --> 01:13:43,348
Are they going to be looking at the state of the country

923
01:13:43,348 --> 01:13:45,628
and saying, hey, we can use these energy assets and Bitcoin

924
01:13:45,628 --> 01:13:47,728
to get ourselves back on our feet quicker?

925
01:13:47,728 --> 01:13:48,848
That would not surprise me.

926
01:13:49,928 --> 01:13:53,448
I think all these factors and these variables

927
01:13:53,448 --> 01:13:58,448
are just pointing to somebody's got to jump at some point

928
01:13:58,448 --> 01:14:00,288
because the incentive is too strong.

929
01:14:01,228 --> 01:14:03,868
Yeah, the thesis is 100% there.

930
01:14:04,328 --> 01:14:06,028
Someone's just got to make that jump.

931
01:14:06,908 --> 01:14:13,808
And I agree with you that someone should make that jump before the U.S.

932
01:14:13,828 --> 01:14:16,028
because the thesis is stronger for other countries

933
01:14:16,028 --> 01:14:18,728
like potentially Venezuela if the regime falls

934
01:14:18,728 --> 01:14:19,908
or when the regime falls.

935
01:14:21,048 --> 01:14:22,828
And then countries like Argentina,

936
01:14:22,828 --> 01:14:30,408
like it's it's a no-brainer but if the u.s does it first it makes it so much easier for them because

937
01:14:30,408 --> 01:14:40,228
then it's stabilized right if they're the first to jump in it's a little more dicey right but if

938
01:14:40,228 --> 01:14:45,208
the u.s does it and then it starts to be a real trend and then if every treasury around the world

939
01:14:45,208 --> 01:14:53,308
owns some of it, then you have a commodity that's parked. Are treasuries going to sell it?

940
01:14:53,548 --> 01:15:02,048
No. Then you essentially suck up the float. That starts to look really interesting. Then you can't

941
01:15:02,048 --> 01:15:09,788
manipulate it as much. Now you can swing it around. I don't know if you call it manipulation

942
01:15:09,788 --> 01:15:11,368
or whatever you want to call it,

943
01:15:11,388 --> 01:15:14,388
but for an asset that's $1.8 trillion,

944
01:15:15,268 --> 01:15:17,588
you can move it around with a few billion,

945
01:15:18,448 --> 01:15:22,368
which that's probably going to change

946
01:15:22,368 --> 01:15:25,528
once you have treasuries start to suck it up.

947
01:15:26,028 --> 01:15:26,128
Yeah.

948
01:15:26,648 --> 01:15:30,408
Yeah, we need to move into the deck of trillions,

949
01:15:31,208 --> 01:15:32,888
cent a trillion market cap

950
01:15:32,888 --> 01:15:37,388
to make it so you can't move the market with billions.

951
01:15:38,128 --> 01:15:38,328
Yep.

952
01:15:38,328 --> 01:15:45,348
Ryan, this has been incredible. Where can anybody who's so curious learn more about what you're up to, learn about Empree?

953
01:15:46,208 --> 01:15:54,748
Yep. You can follow us on X, Empree Digital. And then we're on Instagram and we're on all the other socials as well.

954
01:15:54,828 --> 01:15:57,148
But I think a majority of our presence is on X.

955
01:15:57,648 --> 01:16:06,288
I post a lot about this TradFi stuff and the way the two worlds are starting to integrate together and the good and the bad that comes with that.

956
01:16:06,288 --> 01:16:11,508
And this is going to be interesting to watch it play out over the next 12 and 24 months.

957
01:16:12,828 --> 01:16:16,708
Whether this works or doesn't work, it's going to be really interesting.

958
01:16:17,088 --> 01:16:19,748
There's going to be a lot happening overtly and covertly.

959
01:16:21,668 --> 01:16:24,288
Well, that's the beauty of Bitcoin at the very least.

960
01:16:24,708 --> 01:16:26,848
No matter what the price is doing, it's always very interesting.

961
01:16:27,428 --> 01:16:27,548
Yeah.

962
01:16:30,248 --> 01:16:33,808
Marty, I really appreciate you having me.

963
01:16:34,148 --> 01:16:35,268
Thank you for coming on.

964
01:16:35,268 --> 01:16:38,388
I was going to say, I was just going to say we should do this again at some point next year,

965
01:16:38,668 --> 01:16:43,868
do a little update, see how things are progressing. Agreed. There's going to be a lot to talk about.

966
01:16:44,288 --> 01:16:50,828
There is. All right. Well, you enjoy your week at the end of the year, and we'll see you in 2026.

967
01:16:51,688 --> 01:16:54,388
Sounds great. Happy holidays. All right. Peace and love, freaks.

968
01:16:54,388 --> 01:16:58,808
Thank you for listening to this episode of TFTC. If you've made it this far,

969
01:16:58,988 --> 01:17:04,468
I imagine you got some value out of the episode. If so, please share it far and wide with your

970
01:17:04,468 --> 01:17:09,468
friends and family. We're looking to get the word out there. Also, wherever you're listening,

971
01:17:09,608 --> 01:17:15,888
whether that's YouTube, Apple, Spotify, make sure you like and subscribe to the show. And if you

972
01:17:15,888 --> 01:17:21,048
can leave a rating on the podcasting platforms, that goes a long way. Last but not least,

973
01:17:21,048 --> 01:17:26,768
if you want to get these episodes a day early and ad free, make sure you download the Fountain

974
01:17:26,768 --> 01:17:34,248
podcasting app and go to fountain.fm to find that. $5 a month gets you every episode a day early,

975
01:17:34,468 --> 01:17:42,448
ad free helps the show gives you incredible value so please consider subscribing via fountain as well

976
01:17:42,448 --> 01:17:45,328
thank you for your time and until next time