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You've had a dynamic where money has become freer than free.

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You talk about a Fed just gone nuts.

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All the central banks going nuts.

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So it's all acting like safe haven.

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I believe that in a world where central bankers are tripping over themselves to devalue their currency,

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Bitcoin wins.

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In the world of fiat currencies, Bitcoin is the victor.

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I mean, that's part of the bull case for Bitcoin.

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If you're not paying attention, you probably should be.

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Stand at the precipice.

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Gold running to 4,000.

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Bitcoin cooling off after hitting a new all-time high.

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The debasement trade is on.

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AI is taking over the world.

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Or is it?

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Sitting there with Alex Kretzky to solve all the world's problems.

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Again.

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It's been a while, dude.

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Yeah, we solved the world problems like, what was it, a year ago, 18 months ago?

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Now we've got new problems to deal with.

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So here we are again.

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Yeah, a lot has changed.

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And we were just riffing on AI.

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Is it hype, overhype?

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Is there something there?

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Is the way it's being applied, the way it will ultimately be applied

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in terms of bringing the most utility and productivity to the world?

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where are we in the cycle as somebody who has been toying around with it for quite a long time now

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yeah i think i don't think my opinions changed since we we finished up an open source the

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spiritual toshi stuff um my opinion remains that it's a tool uh it's very much like the tractor or

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uh you know the the pc the laptop whatever it's um i think where i've always diverged with a lot

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of the overhype or hype in general is that it's some sort of, you know, second coming

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of God or some sort of sentient being that's going to take over the world and all this

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sort of stuff.

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I've always felt like that was, you know, the nerd's wet dream, you know, like overblown

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kind of like eschatological desire to see the circuits take over the world and to prove

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all the religious people wrong, that God can be created in the circus.

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So I've always felt like there was a strange sort of desire for that

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that was completely logical.

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And we might have discussed this last time, it's been so long,

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but I know I've riffed with someone about the fact that intelligence

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or the concept of general intelligence is just infinite,

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and what we have with the breakthrough with LLMs has been specialized

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intelligence around the reproduction of patents linguistically first and now in applications

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like video.

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But by no means is this anywhere near general intelligence, nor is it anywhere near sentience,

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which is further down the track.

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So there was, I shared a tweet with you now from Devin Erickson and a couple other people

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who are sort of like pointing at this, which is, hey, this is a great tool.

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It can be used effectively.

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Although, as with all tools, it's quite hard to be used effectively.

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Most people just use it poorly and they just get slop.

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And as we're seeing, the whole world is sort of,

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or the whole online world is just being filled with more and more and more slop.

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But if used effectively, you can create quite cool things with it.

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Um, I know, for example, I'm, I'm a father now to a newborn and, uh, the little guy was,

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um, was sneezing the other day.

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And the first thing we did was we just asked Chachipiti, Hey, you know, what should we do?

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Should we get like some saline solution or anything like that?

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What, like, what do we do?

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And we've got some good feedback.

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So, so for like, for that kind of stuff, it's a super breakthrough.

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Um, also for things like the video that you guys did for, um, for the opportunity cost

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calculator or the opportunity cost app. Like that was fucking brilliant, man. So, so for that stuff,

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fundamentally, it's, it's great. But does that mean that this is going to end all the jobs and

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replace all the human beings and give us some sort of sentient being? Fuck no. Like that,

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it's just, and I think people have sort of slowly come to that conclusion themselves instinctively

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because, you know, you had GPT-3, GPT-4 and people are like, oh yeah, by the time we get the GPT-5,

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this thing's going to be like fucking god and gpt6 it's going to be running the world and here we are

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gpt5 is not really any different than four um you know we we sort of had that jump between three and

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four but since then you know everything's kind of tapered off um and all of the different models are

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kind of you know the same the big guys whether it's grok gpt gemini they all sort of like

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function the same so i feel like we've hit a ceiling there um so yeah that's my that's sort

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of my thoughts off the cuff yeah the i completely agree because it's funny making these videos

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it's people and we've had a bunch of people come to us like how are you doing this like it like

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what is the secret sauce it's like there is no secret sauce like it actually does take hard work

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like the amount of iterations you have to run through with the generations because you understand

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that the LLMs are actually not smart and they're not intelligent. You have to literally handhold

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them and format things in a certain way. You have to bring the context of a cinematographer

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and a director and understand how to prompt that. Like it's not easy. We have a bunch of people

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in our circle saying,

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we're going to go do this and

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we're going to create similar memes

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and short films, whatever you want to call them.

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And it's like, all right, good luck.

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It takes us like a week.

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The last one we just did took 55 hours

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of work from storyboarding, scripting,

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and then iterating on

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generations. And it is simply just

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a tool that allows us

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and enables us to do things that would have cost us

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tens of thousands of dollars and now they cost

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$5,000

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in labor and minimal cost of credits right now, which you pulled up another tweet from

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Zoomer.

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It's like how sustainable is the business model for these large language models with

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how much they're charging customers right now.

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I think we're probably in a very unique and anomalous point in the cost curve for the

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customer right now where they're just essentially um trying to subsidize this with loss leading by

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making tokens super cheap when that we know that the power that uh the cost of the power it takes

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to actually produce the outputs is far exceeds and hacking the hardware as well far exceeds uh

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what they're charging us this this is such a good point so actually i am around around the time when

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we were sort of trying to commercialize Spirit of Satoshi two years ago now, this hit me like

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a ton of bricks as a business owner, because we had spent all of this time training and building

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and refining and fine tuning this, the Spirit of Satoshi model. And we had finally got to a good

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enough model that we thought we could charge for it. And when we went to some Bitcoin companies to

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kind of sell it as a assistant, but an assistant that actually understands Bitcoin.

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They were only willing to pay like 20 bucks a month or something, or maybe 50 bucks a

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month for it.

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And when we did the cost analysis on the back end, the inference cost to provide that was

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in the thousands so that these guys could have it.

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And I was like, what the fuck is going on here?

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You know, the economics don't make any sense whatsoever.

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And that was when it first hit me that in the AI space, what you've got is a situation where, actually in traditional software, your marginal cost per new customer is effectively zero.

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It doesn't cost you anything else for another person to download the app and use the app.

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Whereas in the AI space, each new user actually costs you.

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So there is a marginal cost.

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There is a real marginal cost for every single new person that you add.

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Now, the bet is that you have users who don't use it that much and hopefully pay a subscription to subsidize the users that do use it, obviously, as with all of these things.

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And at large scales, maybe there's some sort of model that works.

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But what I realized, I'm kind of into it when we were trying to raise money from some sort of more AI-centric venture capitalists.

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I did some digging, some research and everything, who they are, who their LPs are and everything.

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And what I found, like if I traced the chain back, was that a lot of the money was actually coming somehow, some way through Amazon or Google or NVIDIA or something like that.

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That was sort of like either the LPs or behind the LPs.

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So what I found was that it was kind of like the wrong kind of circular economy.

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It was like laundering money.

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But you got the money going to the startups and then startups spending all of their money on inference and training.

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And, you know, obviously getting a little bit of money in the front end from customers if they found some sort of success.

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But it became like the money would end up being invested in the startups to be spent back with the same ultimate LPs who were investing in the startups.

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So it was kind of this kind of circular logic.

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And I was like, what the fuck?

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And I remember writing a tweet about that two years ago.

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And anyway, I sent you a tweet from some guy who kind of like outlined that about four or five weeks ago.

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He had actually done some research and outlined it.

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So it's a really interesting, somewhat false economy.

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And what that's led me to believe where 18 months ago, two years ago, this is maybe the one opinion I've changed, is I thought there was going to be like a total proliferation of models.

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I've actually changed my mind on that.

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I think it's a, it's kind of like an oligopoly situation just by virtue of, um, the fact that

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this only really works at scale.

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Like I thought there was going to be many, many, many models.

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That was my whole premise when I previously launched Spirit of Satoshi.

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Um, but I actually think we're probably going to end up in a world where we have like the

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fang of language models.

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Um, and the long tail is just like pointless, you know, hugging face these days is really

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struggling you know at the remember if you remember like 18 months ago hugging face was booming

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everyone's using models on there no one gives a shit anymore everyone just uses chat gpt

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or if they have google credits they're using that um some people use claude and that's about it

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i don't think there's anything else really that people use i keep muting that because i'm moving

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my stuff i said we're using claude and gemini predominantly here at tftc um and that scares me

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we're using them because they're the most useful.

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I guess the idealist in me would like the open source models to be able to

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compete and to take market share from the closed source models at the end of

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the day.

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They're just not capable yet of doing exactly what these other models can do.

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It's partly not capable.

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And it's also partly,

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you know,

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I've,

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I've kind of become less and less and less of an idealist myself.

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and I guess somewhat more of a realist maybe the older I get.

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But I just sort of realized that people just don't give a shit, man.

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You know, they sort of build a habit around.

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I mean, I think that the – I haven't seen usage statistics,

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but my guess would be that ChatGPT has like the absolute lion's share of usage

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when it comes to these models.

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I think Gemini and stuff like that are still like a fraction and they're more used by more enterprise or more, you know, customers like yourself who are trying to do something more unique.

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But in terms of like general mass market, ChatGPT is one.

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Like people don't give a fuck about open source or, you know, having their own model running on their own computer unless you're like sort of a techie.

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But beyond that, I just don't think there's a significant business in there.

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It's kind of like Google search and DuckDuckGo.

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Right. DuckDuckGo has a space, but it's like, what is it?

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A 0.1% of the fraction of what Google search is?

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Yeah, definitely.

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I'm a DuckDuckGo user.

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I'm going to move to KG.

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I'll re-pronounce it soon, I think.

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DuckDuckGo's experience has deprecated.

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Because, yeah, I guess you have to hope for Moore's Law to come into place.

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really aggressively the cost to come down and making it dead simple to

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download a model and run it locally and reap the same benefits that you would from open

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AI or Claude or Anthropic. And I just don't think that's going to happen anytime soon.

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I hope I'm wrong. Maybe these Chinese, the arms race between the Chinese and the West is so

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aggressive that the Chinese come out with some open source model that blows everything out of

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the water but i think that's wishful thinking i mean maybe the only time that works is if um

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the models actually hit an actual ceiling and no amount of extra compute can break that ceiling

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at which point what you get is moore's law forces the smaller models to catch up

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and everyone is at the same ceiling and in that case then you have an opportunity but still

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what i then wonder is like what is the business model for these um and and i'm not sure what it

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So at least if I put my business hat on, I don't know if there's a business case there, but if I put my consumer hat on, yeah, maybe there's an upside for me as a consumer when these things sort of hit a local maxima, at least for a period, at which they're all sort of producing the same output.

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In which case, yeah, maybe it makes sense for me to drop ChatGPT and start using something else.

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Yeah.

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Yeah. Well, with that in mind, I mean, what does the future look like?

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I guess throwing specific models and open source versus post-source AI aside right now,

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I'm thinking about just broad applications of people, how they're using these things,

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whether it's via N8M flows to create these sort of agentic workflows

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or using Claude's MPC or Anthropics MPC.

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It looks like ChatGPT is about to release an agent or a dev kit

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where you can connect things.

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It seems like based off of what you been writing about and sort of what you working on as Atlantis and your view of sort of a new web emerging with AI Noster and Bitcoin that there another way to do these things

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So here's, if I had to boil down my position, is that I think we are at the point of a renaissance again of cool new consumer products, basically.

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Sort of like what we had about 10 years ago when we had the rise of like Shopify and Uber and Airbnb and all this sort of stuff.

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Like for the last decade, there hasn't really been a lot of new consumer apps.

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Like consumers have been dead for a little while.

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And if I look at the technical landscape, you know, sort of AI, if I put that in a bucket, you've got these new tools and frameworks.

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and whether that's like vibe coding stuff to produce like little quick MVPs,

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whether it's the video generation stuff to maybe do some more intelligent marketing

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and stuff like that so you can lower your cost of producing outreach or communications,

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or whether it's some of these agentic frameworks,

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although I'm a little bit skeptical around the agentic stuff

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because maybe there is some things you can really turn into a process

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because that's effectively what these agentic frameworks are for.

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It's like to take a dumb process that you might hire, you know,

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an outsourced person in the Philippines for and just like do it with that

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for 10% or 20% of the cost.

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You wouldn't do anything really critical as a function in the business with that.

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You know, maybe you were previously hiring someone to write technical tests

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to make sure that your code passes a certain standard.

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You know, for that, you might be able to build an agentic framework

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and you save yourself X amount of hours per person in code review

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or you save yourself one higher or something like that.

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So AI is sort of an effort multiplier as a business.

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But you've got these two other tools which I find really interesting.

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One is obviously Bitcoin for payments and the ability to embed payments

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into any application you build.

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And then number three is something like Nostra.

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And I say something like Nostra because whether Nostra succeeds or fails doesn't really matter.

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What matters is the idea of an identity layer to the web where the identity is actually owned by the user.

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That creates a bit of a new design space for having a profile that can move across different applications.

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So that's the interesting thing about Nostra, in my opinion.

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I know a lot of people talk about the censorship resistance element and all of this, but in my opinion, I think that ship has sailed.

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A lot of Bitcoiners probably will be annoyed at me for saying that, or maybe even Nostra people will be annoyed at me for saying that.

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But I think the mind space for censorship resistance is now basically taken up in most people's minds by X, Substack, and Rumble.

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I don't think, you know, maybe a couple of years ago there was an opportunity there for Nostra really to claim mind share.

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But I think that ship has sailed.

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And until, even though Nostra is more censorship resistant, like getting that through people's heads is a very, very, very, very hard job, at least in my opinion.

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I think it's too high a bar to climb.

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whereas the idea of a of a web where you have a portable identity and you can use the one

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identity across multiple applications and you each application can enhance the experience

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by virtue of the fact that you have connections underlying that that to me is quite interesting

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so for me as a startup guy as a business owner and stuff like that i look at this and i'm like okay

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shit we have a bunch of new tools here that we could build an application that may have taken

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a massive fucking team or you know tens of millions or hundreds of millions of dollars to do before

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we can now do it as a startup again and to me that is almost like the beginning of the app boom

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when apple rolled out applications and you could build apps and you could build these massive

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startups with a small team and you had a basically a renaissance in consumer applications and that

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sort of died off because all the consumer apps that were successful became incumbents and they

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kind of blocked off the space etc but now we're at a new stage and now you have small startups again

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can now do payments at scale with bitcoin can hopefully do a social graph at scale with something

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like nostro and can build faster better quicker and go to market faster better quicker with ai

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tools. So that's kind of how I envision this. You know, we can talk about how I'm trying to

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implement that with our product. We've had a bunch of significant sort of refinements of what we're

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doing with Atlantis. And I can give an example of that. But that's my answer to your question.

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It's like these are tools. And I'm really excited over the next five years and 10 years, ideally,

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to see how completely new startups that were either impossible before or very expensive to

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build before are going to come to fruition by virtue of the fact that there's a new toolkit

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or series of tools that entrepreneurs and small startups can use to let them compete with prior

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incumbents. So Freaks, this rip at TFTC was brought to you by our good friends at BitKey.

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Sup Freaks, this was brought to you by our good friends at Obscura. If you've been listening to

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the show long enough, you know we care deeply about privacy, particularly as you peruse the web.

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It is important to be using a VPN and Obscura is our VPN of choice. That is because it is a VPN

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off. Go check it out. Obscura.net. Use the code TFTC25. I really agree with you on the point that

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focusing on censorship resistance for two reasons probably doesn't make sense. Number one,

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people don't care about number two you're competing with xsubstack and rumble which

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have for at least a temporary period of time brought back what seems to be

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more free speech oriented sort of policies um but yeah the the bootstrapping and network effect

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via the social graph has always been the killer feature of nostr in my my opinion just being able

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to if you're a company just put an app into the ether and people sign up and have connectivity

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and accessibility to everybody that they've already connected with on the protocol well let's let's

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dig into that so i've i've evolved my thinking a step further on that side of things so i and this

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may be an unpopular opinion of some sort but um nostra is a protocol well actually let me start

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with this um i think there's been a bit of a um a conflation in the nostra space in the bitcoin

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space um related to the importance of nostra and the importance of bitcoin so the way i like to

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think about it and i was going to write a small article on this but i haven't got around to it yet

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But basically, Bitcoin, the implementation, is more important than Bitcoin, the idea.

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And that's evident by Bitcoin, the idea is every other fucking 50,000 shit coins out there, right?

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Like people have taken the concept and created a shit coin and everything like that.

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But what's important is actually the implementation.

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It's the longest chain.

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It's the chain that runs the Genesis block.

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It's the Node software that we all run.

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It's the fact that we're all in sync.

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It's the actual implementation of Bitcoin that matters.

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That's why Bitcoin Cash and Bitcoin SV and all this sort of stuff doesn't matter.

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On the flip side, though, with Noster, it's actually not the implementation that matters.

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It's the idea that matters.

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And I kind of alluded to that five minutes ago when I said the premise of an identity layer on the web is something that was always kind of wanted for the last 20, 30 years of the web, right?

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There was always this idea to have, hey, let's have identity baked into a protocol on the web, not the identity being a feature inside an application on top of the web.

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And it's always been something that was wanted, but we never got around to it.

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And I think, you know, partly that's because people were never used to having a bearer instrument on, you know, like in a digital capacity.

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You know, Bitcoin probably opened the doorway to something like Nostra to be successful.

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but if we sort of look at this objectively um if bitcoin fails tomorrow the implementation

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i think the world's up shit creek without a paddle like that's a fucking disaster and it

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would be really really really really bad for the world it'll be bad for the future it'll be bad for

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our kids it'll be bad for civilization it'll be bad for everything um but if nostril fails tomorrow

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like what have we lost some content content is worth nothing you know in a world of infinite

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content. You know, sure, maybe we've lost some sort of, you know, social relationships, but

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because social relationships are sort of derived from us as physical human beings, we can always

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rebuild those. That's why if you get banned on Twitter, you can create a new account and you can

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rebuild your profile, right? Like I got banned 10 times. So, you know, I rebuilt my profile. So I've

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sort of been there, done that. So like the cost of losing or the cost of Nostra dying is very low,

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whereas the cost of Bitcoin dying and failing is catastrophic.

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So if Nostra was to fail, I'm sure someone else will come up with another instantiation

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of an identity protocol where the identity is a barrier instrument

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and there's a public-private key pair and we go and create a new one.

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So that's sort of how I start and that's how I look at this.

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And that's like purely objective.

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Yes, I know it's going to piss some people.

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I would probably piss Odell off.

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Um, but that's like, you know, I think that's the, um, the, the, the detached objective way

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to, to sort of understand this.

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So then from there, I asked the next question that sort of flows into my mind is, okay,

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well, if Nostra is this protocol, protocols actually, especially if they've gained some

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level of critical mass, which Nostra has, um, the plus side is protocols are very hard

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to kill.

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they they can live on so long as there is like a core set of users there um you know nostril can

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last five ten years and who knows maybe in five or ten years uh you know the the web starts to

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become more um censorship full and all this sort of stuff and then people start being like okay

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fuck we need to jump on something else you know you get that kind of the next push the next wave

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the trouble is nostril can operate at one speed whereas businesses have to operate at a much like

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that they work on a much shorter horizon right like as a company you can come and sort of make

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a bet on nostril and be like okay well um we're gonna build another social app and build a content

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centric app and bootstrap the network with Nostra.

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But if Nostra is not growing that fast, you're not going to get much of a benefit actually

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from doing that.

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In fact, you probably bring more of a benefit to the protocol than the other way around.

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Whereas, and your goal as a company or as a product is to try and find product market

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fit as soon as possible.

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But maybe you don't get there in time because the speed of Nostra development or the speed of protocol hardening is much longer, like the timeframe is longer than the business.

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So that makes me start to wonder, and this is part of the big shift we've had into Atlantis in the last probably two months, is maybe there's something other than competing for content and attention that we can do to build the foundations or to build a number of end pubs on this network.

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And for us, we found two things.

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And honestly, right now, it's like one thing that we're really focusing on.

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which is events. I don't know for the fucking life of me why I didn't think of this earlier.

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Like when we first started Atlantis, we were thinking of building more like a trip advisor

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meets Instagram meets Eventbrite, right? Like it was kind of a travel nomad, sovereign individual

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super app. And the idea was that we could take that social graph, you know, build a beautiful

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feed and then embed things into the feed, like places and reviews and events and all this sort

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of shit. I look back on myself now, 12 months ago, whatever it was when we started this. And I was

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like, I was on fucking crack. I should have just picked one of these things and done it really well.

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And the big aha moment that we had a couple of months ago when we were in Prague was we rolled

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out the first version of the app and it had places, it had the social feed, it had all of that,

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but also had the events piece.

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And the biggest uptick of users we had was people RSVPing for events.

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And we've designed the app in such a way that you might not even care about Nostra

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or any of that sort of stuff.

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So you can log in with an email or Google single sign-on or Apple single sign-on,

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but it creates an end pub for you.

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So it is an actual Nostra identity, which you can later, when you give a shit,

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you can just extract your private key.

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But otherwise we just manage it for you there But that created a whole bunch of new Nostra users And what we did with Primal during the event was people signed up for satellite events around the conference with our app And then

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we told them, hey, take your key now and you can put it into Primal and you can experience

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Zaps and the social thing. Because Primal has by far, in the Nostra space, it has by far the best

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feed. You know, you've got Damas and Amethyst and all this sort of stuff. You've even got the

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Atlantis feed. But I don't see why you would use another app when you're following the same people

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and you're going to see the same content. So I think, you know, even Nostra from a feed perspective,

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I think converges to one winner. And that's, in my opinion, primal, which is, you know, for us,

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we're actually going to get rid of our feed from the app. Like we're going to deprioritize the feed

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as a feature. And what we're going to take from the social graph is when you're finding an event,

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what's important well shit i'm going to go to an event and i'm going to see that marty bent's going

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to this event because we're connected that gives me instant insight into maybe i should go to that

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event or maybe i want to go to the event discovery page on the app and the kind of events that come

379
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:44,880
up on my um discovery sort of feed which looks a little bit like spotify now instead of a vertical

380
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:51,520
feed, we've got like these carousels, is influenced by my social graph and people that I'm close

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to that I share interests with and stuff like that.

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00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:56,600
That starts to become really interesting because you can't do that on Eventbrite.

383
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You can't do that on Luma.

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00:31:59,180 --> 00:32:02,420
You know, there's no sort of social glue that ties these apps together.

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And if we can build a really, really, really good events app that hosts can create events

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on in like 60 seconds, where every time someone RSVPs to their event, they grow their follower,

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they grow their audience. But then those event attendees also actually become Nostra users,

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and they don't even know where later they can use Primal. We actually start to build,

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like imagine you host, you know, you have a thousand hosts hosting 10 events a year

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with 100 people per event. Like that's a 10 million people or 10 million sign-ins.

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that's just grown the Nostra base massively.

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Maybe they're unlikely to all be posting content,

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so you're not going to see a huge boost in Nostra activity

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in terms of Kind1 events, but you've got a larger foundation

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for when the time comes, they will just take their account

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and log into Primal or something like that and start to use it.

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So that's kind of the big switch I've had in my mind is we're kind of taking,

398
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we've been trying to be this social app for sovereign individuals

399
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and we're going to kind of kill the social element.

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We're just going to become the best fucking events app in the world

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that has a social layer built in.

402
00:33:16,980 --> 00:33:19,980
And what I forgot to mention is Bitcoin payments.

403
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:25,280
Like I can't believe there is no actual Bitcoin native events app on the planet.

404
00:33:25,380 --> 00:33:27,300
Like imagine Eventbrite with just Bitcoin payments.

405
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It doesn't exist.

406
00:33:28,780 --> 00:33:31,440
I was like, this was staring me in the face the whole time and I didn't notice it.

407
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So anyway, that's a long way of explaining.

408
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:43,120
Like, I definitely agree with you that the being able to sort of somewhat bootstrap your social app with Nostra is somewhat of a good idea.

409
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But I feel like that's that's a big lift.

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And there's probably one winner in that space.

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And that's, in my opinion, clearly primal.

412
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But I think there's another approach where you can use Nostra just purely as a tool.

413
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It's hidden.

414
00:33:58,440 --> 00:33:59,880
The average consumer doesn't know.

415
00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:08,380
But this is a tool that people use because it solves a particular problem, which is I want to host an event, get paid and grow an audience very quickly.

416
00:34:08,700 --> 00:34:09,720
And here's the tool for that.

417
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:12,940
And that inadvertently grows Nostra and it creates Bitcoin adoption.

418
00:34:13,260 --> 00:34:14,400
That to me is really compelling.

419
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:15,260
Yeah.

420
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:17,940
No, I love this train of thought.

421
00:34:18,820 --> 00:34:19,620
This is interesting, right?

422
00:34:19,620 --> 00:34:26,580
you have to sat lantis you're building a startup a company that's leveraging this protocol and this

423
00:34:26,580 --> 00:34:32,700
protocol has a problem where it's been leaning into the social aspect which is good and all

424
00:34:32,700 --> 00:34:40,100
and the ability to have somewhat censorship resistant content and social profiles the

425
00:34:40,100 --> 00:34:46,060
social web a web of trust and payments embedded is cool but i forget who was i think it was peter

426
00:34:46,060 --> 00:34:52,740
Thiel, but I mean, obviously Peter Thiel had that famous talk at Stanford where he said,

427
00:34:52,740 --> 00:34:54,140
you want to find a monopoly.

428
00:34:54,300 --> 00:34:54,620
You don't want it.

429
00:34:54,740 --> 00:34:55,600
You don't want competitors.

430
00:34:56,100 --> 00:35:01,560
And I think leading into the social side of Nostra, like leaning into the social side

431
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:07,260
of things via the Nostra protocols, like, all right, you're competing with a highly

432
00:35:07,260 --> 00:35:09,060
saturated and competitive landscape already.

433
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:11,800
What is the area that doesn't exist?

434
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:13,520
What's the marketing note create?

435
00:35:13,780 --> 00:35:14,360
That should be.

436
00:35:14,660 --> 00:35:14,940
Yeah.

437
00:35:15,060 --> 00:35:15,340
You're going.

438
00:35:15,340 --> 00:35:16,780
And it's interesting because Nostra is a protocol.

439
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:23,640
It's not really a company, but as a company building, it's like, okay, what can we do with this protocol to go create a market, bring people to it?

440
00:35:25,820 --> 00:35:26,400
Spot on.

441
00:35:26,500 --> 00:35:31,000
I'm glad you said that because this was another realization that we had.

442
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:34,820
This has become a podcast on like entrepreneur mistakes.

443
00:35:36,140 --> 00:35:43,440
After the Prague conference, we went to another conference, which was the largest nomad conference in the world, in Bulgaria.

444
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:50,940
and we went there and we pitched the product as a um you know a social network for nomads

445
00:35:50,940 --> 00:35:57,200
and people were like oh this is cool you know they downloaded it they posted a little bit of

446
00:35:57,200 --> 00:36:02,700
content on the first day and then they didn't post again and we sort of like tried to convince

447
00:36:02,700 --> 00:36:06,760
them like look just post the same kind of content you're doing on instagram but you can post it here

448
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:11,260
and you get to own your audience blah blah blah you know we did all this pitching and man it was

449
00:36:11,260 --> 00:36:17,280
so fucking hard to get them to stop posting on Instagram or even just post alongside the posting

450
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:21,100
on Instagram. It felt like we didn't solve a problem. We actually gave them a new problem,

451
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:27,000
which was another place to post. And, and sort of that hit me really hard. I was like, I, I,

452
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:32,100
I walked out of that conference and spent like, um, you know, a week or two kind of digesting and

453
00:36:32,100 --> 00:36:39,880
thinking competing on social, like you're competing for attention and attention is like the,

454
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:46,380
the most expensive, uh, currency on the planet today. Like it's so fucking expensive. Like,

455
00:36:46,420 --> 00:36:52,200
and you're competing with TikTok, Instagram, Twitter, who, which are literally designed to

456
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:57,840
hijack your fucking brain and turn you into a zombie that is triggered by everything. Um,

457
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:04,080
that's, that's a really, that's a really high bar. It's a very difficult thing to do. And,

458
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:20,140
And I sort of found St. Lance's kind of sandwiched between trying to get people to drop these mainstream social apps on the one hand, but also sandwiched between, as I said earlier, you know, we had a feed or we have a feed still.

459
00:37:20,260 --> 00:37:22,180
We haven't completely deprecated or changed it.

460
00:37:22,500 --> 00:37:26,800
But we're competing also with Amethyst, Primal, Damus and, you know, the other apps.

461
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:28,680
And we're like, OK, what's the differentiator here?

462
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:34,220
you know sure we've you know you can on our feed you can see events and you can see places and you

463
00:37:34,220 --> 00:37:39,820
can see some other stuff but it's not really that compelling um it's not really that differentiated

464
00:37:39,820 --> 00:37:47,620
and quite honestly like i'll say this myself primal primal feed is functionally 10 times

465
00:37:47,620 --> 00:37:53,400
better than our feed like our feed looks nice but it's not that fucking great um and we we never

466
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:57,740
we also never got around to building zaps because we wanted to try and figure out a way to make our

467
00:37:57,740 --> 00:38:03,560
feed more unique without zaps. Um, and then we're going to sort of add zaps as a, as a icing on the

468
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:08,180
cake. But yeah, like I ended up sort of stuck between these two and I was like, man, I'm playing

469
00:38:08,180 --> 00:38:14,000
the wrong game here. Like, let me go pick myself up out of here and go over here. And then I realized

470
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:21,260
in the event space, you've got basically meetup.com and Eventbrite who everyone like universally

471
00:38:21,260 --> 00:38:26,860
fucking hates. They haven't changed for 20 years. Um, Eventbrite is like, by the time you,

472
00:38:27,340 --> 00:38:33,360
like, first of all, you can only host an event and get paid if you're a Westerner. So like,

473
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:37,760
you know, if you, if you're from Brazil or if you're from Latin America, if you're from Africa,

474
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:42,920
if you're from most of Asia, if you're from Eastern Europe, you can't use Eventbrite as a

475
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:47,400
host. Like sure, as an attendee, you can attend, but as a host, you can't get paid out. So that

476
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:53,260
throws that out the window. But even if you're a host in one of the Western countries, Eventbrite

477
00:38:53,260 --> 00:38:59,240
takes almost 10% after payment processing fees. Like, so it's a fucking highway robbery. Like,

478
00:38:59,260 --> 00:39:04,080
it's insane. So you've got Eventbrite on one side. On the other side, you've got meetup.com,

479
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:07,980
which charges now 45 bucks a month so that you can have the privilege of running a meetup.

480
00:39:08,300 --> 00:39:14,620
But everyone hates meetup.com. And it's outdated. It hasn't changed. It's been bought by private

481
00:39:14,620 --> 00:39:19,380
equity so it's tired as hell um which is why in my opinion you've got these kind of like new um i

482
00:39:19,380 --> 00:39:23,760
don't know if you've ever used luma or potterful have you used that i've used luma before yeah so

483
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:30,460
luma i i'll again credit where credit's due that in my opinion is the best events app in the world

484
00:39:30,460 --> 00:39:36,700
today it's so fucking good unfortunately it's run by solana dudes and it's like shit winners um but

485
00:39:36,700 --> 00:39:41,840
like again credit where credit's due it's so much better than eventbrite it's so much better than

486
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:46,240
meetup.com and they've really cornered the market, particularly for tech events and for sort of like

487
00:39:46,240 --> 00:39:51,580
up and coming meetups and all this sort of stuff. So what we realized is, hey, there's,

488
00:39:51,660 --> 00:40:00,800
there's actually no Bitcoin native equivalent for Luma. And if we can build that and just like

489
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:05,260
build Bitcoin payments into it naturally, because even with Luma, like they do have Stripe and they

490
00:40:05,260 --> 00:40:09,680
do have ticketing, but after their fees and Stripe's fees, you're paying about seven and a

491
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:13,780
half eight percent per ticket on luma so it's still fucking hyper expensive like it's a little

492
00:40:13,780 --> 00:40:20,220
bit cheaper than eventbrite but it's super super expensive um you could do bitcoin ticketing like

493
00:40:20,220 --> 00:40:26,760
in a luma sort of like experience and you could do that for one percent and and not only can you

494
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:33,000
do it cheaper so for everybody but you can actually unlock the entire fucking world it'd be the first

495
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:38,640
global events app on the planet which doesn't exist so for me that starts to get really

496
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:42,660
interesting. It's like, okay, now Bitcoin actually unlocks something. So we're not, we're not,

497
00:40:42,820 --> 00:40:49,080
I said this to, to the team the other week, I was like, hey, we're not a Bitcoin company.

498
00:40:49,620 --> 00:40:56,860
We're not a Nostra company. We're an events app that happens to be using Bitcoin Nostra. And

499
00:40:56,860 --> 00:41:03,040
this is, this makes me think actually about an article that I wrote a couple of years ago called

500
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:07,600
Three Generations Theory, where I kind of said that the first generation of Bitcoin apps

501
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:12,940
were all going to be about something to do with the financial element of Bitcoin.

502
00:41:12,940 --> 00:41:20,060
So exchanges, wallets, mining, and you've got this kind of like late stage fiat treasury

503
00:41:20,060 --> 00:41:21,500
company bullshit going on, right?

504
00:41:21,860 --> 00:41:23,660
So which we can talk about.

505
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:28,500
But like the first generation of Bitcoin, like the first 20 years is going to be about like

506
00:41:28,500 --> 00:41:32,120
the nature of Bitcoin emerging against the US dollar.

507
00:41:32,460 --> 00:41:36,680
But the second generation of Bitcoin, so let's just say the first generation is 2010 to 2030.

508
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:43,780
the next generation 2030 to 2050 you're going to have like young business owners and entrepreneurs

509
00:41:43,780 --> 00:41:50,940
who were born after bitcoin was launched like you know they were born in 2010 onwards they're not

510
00:41:50,940 --> 00:41:54,000
going to know of a world like that they will perceive bitcoin completely differently to you

511
00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:57,500
and i like you and i were born with one foot in the fiat world one foot in bitcoin so we

512
00:41:57,500 --> 00:42:01,760
fundamentally even though we're a little bit different like we think already in terms of

513
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:06,620
Bitcoin, but the large majority of the world like sort of still views Bitcoin as this speculative

514
00:42:06,620 --> 00:42:11,660
investment or this like instrument for making more fiat, right? For making more US dollars.

515
00:42:12,240 --> 00:42:16,840
These kids will see Bitcoin completely different. And for them, it's like they'll build what I call

516
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:21,340
second generation Bitcoin companies, which is they'll build events apps, they'll build travel

517
00:42:21,340 --> 00:42:27,400
apps, they'll build, you know, Ubers, they'll build like actual applications. But Bitcoin is just,

518
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:33,900
part of the stack. They'll look at it exactly like modern developers look at JavaScript,

519
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:41,200
Node.js. It's just, okay, we're going to use this for payments. We're going to use Nostra to

520
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:46,180
add a social glue to it. We're going to use AI to do this. And that's it. It's part of the stack.

521
00:42:46,180 --> 00:42:53,060
That to me is when Bitcoin really starts to embed itself in the world in technology. And that's

522
00:42:53,060 --> 00:43:03,440
like you know somewhat unconsciously i've started like making atlantis a um an attempt at a second

523
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:07,500
generation bitcoin company it's like we're not a bitcoin company we're an events app but we just

524
00:43:07,500 --> 00:43:11,860
happen to use bitcoin in the in the stack and that to me starts to get interesting anyway i'll shut

525
00:43:11,860 --> 00:43:16,740
up i kind of went off on a bunch of tangents but here's the ethos so freaks it's that time of year

526
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again the healthcare enrollment window is open it'll be open between now and the end of january

527
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529
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533
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It's been a game changer. I'm sure you're aware that healthcare premiums across the board are

535
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540
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549
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unchained.com slash tftc. I don't think this is a digression, but really sort of an elaboration

550
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:10,440
because I think it's important to bring up because you have it in the article. And I think

551
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:12,420
something that everybody, particularly in Nostar,

552
00:45:13,060 --> 00:45:14,300
should be thinking about, but you referenced

553
00:45:14,300 --> 00:45:16,500
Andrew Chen's cold start

554
00:45:16,500 --> 00:45:18,640
problem in his book,

555
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:20,500
and he was at Uber when they had this

556
00:45:20,500 --> 00:45:21,760
cold start problem, and I think

557
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:23,880
I'm really happy we're having this conversation

558
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:26,320
as it pertains to Nostar specifically. I think we

559
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:28,420
really need to rethink how we solve this

560
00:45:28,420 --> 00:45:29,340
cold start problem.

561
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:31,580
Why should people

562
00:45:31,580 --> 00:45:34,200
really take the lessons

563
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:36,280
from this book and begin applying

564
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:38,340
it to what they're doing in terms

565
00:45:38,340 --> 00:45:39,480
of building businesses online?

566
00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:43,440
Totally. I mean, do you want to, should we dive into that a little bit?

567
00:45:43,440 --> 00:46:00,800
Yeah Yeah So cold start problem maybe is like a for people who don know what that means is when you trying to build a kind of like a marketplace application or something that has a network effect which has two sides to the market like Uber is an example

568
00:46:00,900 --> 00:46:05,860
You have drivers and riders. Like if there's no drivers, you can't get riders. And if there's no riders, you can't get drivers.

569
00:46:06,380 --> 00:46:09,180
So it's like the chicken and egg problem. So how do you solve that?

570
00:46:09,180 --> 00:46:14,300
um you know there's andrew chan kind of outlines four ways to solve it you've got um

571
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:21,220
uh what do you call it come for the tool stay for the network and he uses some examples like

572
00:46:21,220 --> 00:46:27,240
dropbox um you know or google drive so you you came for the tool so you could store your stuff

573
00:46:27,240 --> 00:46:32,660
online but then when you share it people get more utility by also creating a dropbox or google drive

574
00:46:32,660 --> 00:46:39,840
account, right? Instagram was actually one of these as well. Originally, Instagram was a competitor

575
00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:47,040
to an app called Hipstamatic, which was just a photo filtering app. But the difference was that

576
00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:51,620
with Hipstamatic, you had to download the photo to your phone after you put the filters on,

577
00:46:52,240 --> 00:46:56,760
and then you could separately upload it to Facebook or one of the social networks.

578
00:46:57,480 --> 00:47:04,380
Instagram flipped the script there was they allowed you to instantly post to the socials, but also post to your own feed.

579
00:47:04,620 --> 00:47:09,180
So what ended up happening was people came for the tool, but slowly by slowly they stayed for the network.

580
00:47:10,620 --> 00:47:13,480
The other mechanism is invite only.

581
00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:20,040
So Andrew Chen points at LinkedIn as someone who did this really well was by making it invite only.

582
00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:21,500
It's sort of like a club.

583
00:47:22,100 --> 00:47:25,460
And what you do is you get network density.

584
00:47:25,460 --> 00:47:32,000
and what network density does is it increases the quality of the network effect it's it's smaller in

585
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:38,460
the beginning but you get um more connections and with more connections you get more sticking power

586
00:47:38,460 --> 00:47:45,580
um tinder did that as well uh probably the best app in the world that ever ever ever ever did this

587
00:47:45,580 --> 00:47:52,300
is uh is that rare um app which is like tinder for celebrities they fucking killed it with this

588
00:47:52,300 --> 00:47:59,260
Like they are completely locked down and they have a wait list that is months long and it's completely paid.

589
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:01,420
So they basically tell you to fuck off.

590
00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:02,040
You can't join.

591
00:48:02,340 --> 00:48:05,760
But people are sort of jumping over themselves so they can be a part of that network.

592
00:48:05,820 --> 00:48:09,600
So they keep it super, super high quality, super narrow, super niche.

593
00:48:10,140 --> 00:48:13,520
But they have such a good network effect and they have such a good product like that.

594
00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:18,540
The dude who built that is like a masterclass in building powerful network effects.

595
00:48:18,540 --> 00:48:33,160
So that's sort of the second mechanism. And I will say, and I said this in the article, I think Nostra to some degree accidentally did that as a mechanism to build the first level of network effect.

596
00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:49,980
Because if you sort of think about networked effects happening in like in surges or in waves, like Nostra had its initial network effect and it's got this kind of critical mass of Bitcoiners who all know each other.

597
00:48:50,060 --> 00:48:52,700
So it's got quite like it's almost got an invite only feel.

598
00:48:52,700 --> 00:48:58,340
and even though it's not invite only even though it's open um the fact that it's just like a bunch

599
00:48:58,340 --> 00:49:01,200
of bitcoiners on there telling each other gm and tapping each other and all that sort of stuff

600
00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:08,020
like attracts a particular crowd um which has made the the network quite dense like we are all

601
00:49:08,020 --> 00:49:12,060
connected on there we all know each other and it's basically become bitcoin twitter right just to some

602
00:49:12,060 --> 00:49:16,160
to some degree um and a much better bitcoin twitter because bitcoin twitter now fucking

603
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:22,520
sucks it's full of just morons talking about treasury companies it's so bad um so

604
00:49:22,520 --> 00:49:24,880
So it's done that.

605
00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:32,120
But at the same time, now it's almost like a, if you remember from chemistry, you have electrons in a certain valence, right?

606
00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:34,220
So it's kind of like stuck in this valence.

607
00:49:34,420 --> 00:49:41,920
It hasn't, it's not able to move to the next one, which is, in my opinion, sort of why the nostril growth has tapered off.

608
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:43,800
Even though the products have gotten way better.

609
00:49:44,140 --> 00:49:49,600
Like if you, I mean, like primal is 10 times better than it was a year ago.

610
00:49:49,820 --> 00:49:50,940
It's so fucking good now.

611
00:49:50,940 --> 00:49:55,660
but the usage like is maybe incrementally a little bit better

612
00:49:55,660 --> 00:50:00,300
but the ratio between the improvement in the product

613
00:50:00,300 --> 00:50:02,300
versus the number of users is just not there, right?

614
00:50:02,720 --> 00:50:06,460
And I think that's because the current network effect

615
00:50:06,460 --> 00:50:10,360
is very good for the current club

616
00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:12,740
but it hasn't allowed for a new club.

617
00:50:13,020 --> 00:50:14,780
So in my mind, there needs to be an unlock.

618
00:50:14,780 --> 00:50:16,640
So anyway, that was invite only,

619
00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:20,160
the come for the tool, stay for the network.

620
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:26,380
the third mechanism andrew chen talks about is um what he calls the hard side yeah the hard side

621
00:50:26,380 --> 00:50:33,080
but then also flintstoning so the hard side he talks about um if you if you have a product and

622
00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:38,360
like uber you've got drivers and riders focus on the hard side first so you buy the hard side

623
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:43,400
um whatever that takes so it's like what they did at uber for example in the beginning

624
00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:50,920
they walked around and they like they paid drivers 30 bucks an hour just to drive around

625
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:56,120
the um for during conferences whether they made money or not didn't matter but what that created

626
00:50:56,120 --> 00:51:02,180
was available drivers and then they went around to um to train stations and stuff like that and

627
00:51:02,180 --> 00:51:06,500
gave vouchers out to potential riders and said here's a 30 voucher you can ride with uber for

628
00:51:06,500 --> 00:51:13,420
the first time so they kind of like they they invested in creating that and they built the

629
00:51:13,420 --> 00:51:18,540
first atomic network in san francisco i think it was i think second was new york etc and then they

630
00:51:18,540 --> 00:51:22,900
sort of expanded from there and obviously uber is a great use case and then the final method

631
00:51:22,900 --> 00:51:28,080
flintstoning which is basically fake it till you make it so this is what uh reddit did as an example

632
00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:34,540
and doordash did a funny one but basically you um you like reddit did it with fucking bots so it

633
00:51:34,540 --> 00:51:39,900
looked like there was real activity on there and real fake activity created some real activity and

634
00:51:39,900 --> 00:51:45,680
that sort of started to snowball um doordash did it with um they just listed restaurants on there

635
00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:50,260
people ordered um from doordash and then doordash paid uber drivers and shit like that to come and

636
00:51:50,260 --> 00:51:55,200
actually pick it up from the restaurant without the restaurant actually which is fucking hilarious

637
00:51:55,200 --> 00:52:01,800
so you know there's these four mechanisms um for us it's come for the tool state for the network

638
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:13,080
That is, I think, the unlock that we're looking at now really, really seriously, which is, hey, here's a tool that you can use to host beautiful events, get paid in Bitcoin instantly.

639
00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:15,160
We'll add stable coins soon as well.

640
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:17,420
And we'll add fiat, we'll add Stripe.

641
00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:20,800
So that way there's like the whole buffet for you as an event host.

642
00:52:21,100 --> 00:52:25,520
So come create an awesome event, get paid instantly, low fees.

643
00:52:25,740 --> 00:52:27,880
You get to build an audience while you're doing it.

644
00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:31,940
And in the process, we're building this network effect underneath.

645
00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:41,820
And hopefully people realize that they can stick around on Nostro more broadly and find other applications where they can actually communicate and build relationships and new stuff.

646
00:52:43,260 --> 00:52:43,920
Yeah, I love it.

647
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:46,660
Go build the market that doesn't exist yet.

648
00:52:47,080 --> 00:52:53,880
And I didn't realize the event space was that sort of confined and constricted geographically.

649
00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:55,060
Didn't hit me either, man.

650
00:52:55,180 --> 00:52:55,900
It didn't hit me either.

651
00:52:55,900 --> 00:53:01,880
Like that's why Southeast Asia, for example, has its own like Eventbrite or has its own meetup.com.

652
00:53:02,020 --> 00:53:04,600
Like everyone is like, it's super, super, super fragmented.

653
00:53:04,740 --> 00:53:06,800
The more I dug into that, the more I was like, holy crap.

654
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:09,160
Like this is like, this is the market.

655
00:53:09,340 --> 00:53:10,260
Like what was I doing?

656
00:53:11,380 --> 00:53:22,320
Now my mind's running through like what are other markets that don't exist yet that could be built on the stack with this tool and these set of tools.

657
00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:27,500
and my mind immediately wanders to something like data vending machines which

658
00:53:27,500 --> 00:53:32,940
was sort of drawn to when they originally dropped but as we discussed earlier it doesn't seem like

659
00:53:32,940 --> 00:53:40,800
the llms are there yet but one of these marketplaces that don't exist that are uniquely suited to be

660
00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:48,160
built on this open stack of open protocols with nostril and bitcoin yep yep yep dude if anyone

661
00:53:48,160 --> 00:53:51,920
is listening to this and they've got like ideas there's your there's your toolkit

662
00:53:51,920 --> 00:53:58,820
ai nostril bitcoin like you you have a whole new design space i i have this um let me see if i've

663
00:53:58,820 --> 00:54:07,680
got this diagram here um it's like it's it's a really good way to visualize um the the new design

664
00:54:07,680 --> 00:54:13,540
space that we have with um with nostril bitcoin hold on i'm looking through my stuff all right i'm

665
00:54:13,540 --> 00:54:20,220
going to send this to you on Signal so you can see it and maybe you can share it with people

666
00:54:20,220 --> 00:54:32,000
listening. The initial four-layer stack opened up the opportunity for the world to get everything

667
00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:40,000
from Amazon to Google to Uber to every single application that we have in the world today.

668
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:47,960
and now we have a two extra layers on the stack we have a whole new design space which i think is

669
00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:53,460
going to create a renaissance for new products and like the people building in this space and

670
00:54:53,460 --> 00:54:56,840
the people investing in this space and all this sort of shit and the next 10 20 years are going

671
00:54:56,840 --> 00:55:02,660
to be crazy crazy crazy crazy good i really i really am loving this conversation because i agree

672
00:55:02,660 --> 00:55:07,520
and i've talked to many people building a master million too and i think many people are beginning

673
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:08,540
to recognize this.

674
00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:12,280
Like, all right, what are the new hot sort of applications

675
00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:15,740
that don't exist that could be novel to Noster?

676
00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:22,340
And I love the, like, ditching the idealist approach

677
00:55:22,340 --> 00:55:27,340
and being like, we're not going to be like NSEC only.

678
00:55:27,540 --> 00:55:29,860
Like, if you want to sign in via email via Google, via Apple,

679
00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:33,960
whatever, just sign up and we'll spin up a key for you.

680
00:55:34,520 --> 00:55:35,380
You always have it here.

681
00:55:35,520 --> 00:55:37,200
You probably don't even know that you have it,

682
00:55:37,200 --> 00:55:37,680
but it's here.

683
00:55:38,260 --> 00:55:38,480
Totally.

684
00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:40,840
Once you recognize that you created an MPUB

685
00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:42,040
when you sign up for this app,

686
00:55:42,140 --> 00:55:43,020
like you can go use it.

687
00:55:43,560 --> 00:55:44,260
Totally, totally.

688
00:55:44,380 --> 00:55:48,060
Because then we're using the time in our favor.

689
00:55:48,060 --> 00:55:50,200
We get users now, we get product market fit,

690
00:55:50,260 --> 00:55:51,320
we succeed as a business.

691
00:55:51,880 --> 00:55:54,180
And over the next three, five, 10 years,

692
00:55:54,240 --> 00:55:55,060
we can educate people.

693
00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:55,880
It's like, hey, you know,

694
00:55:55,920 --> 00:55:56,940
you actually own your identity

695
00:55:56,940 --> 00:55:58,300
and you can like make it portable.

696
00:55:59,040 --> 00:56:00,680
They're like, oh, that's fucking cool.

697
00:56:01,100 --> 00:56:01,860
So then they do it.

698
00:56:01,900 --> 00:56:03,680
As opposed to putting the barrier up front.

699
00:56:03,820 --> 00:56:04,680
They're like, oh, what's the key?

700
00:56:04,840 --> 00:56:05,480
How do I do it?

701
00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:06,720
Where do I store it?

702
00:56:07,200 --> 00:56:07,760
Like that.

703
00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:10,420
So yeah, so that's the new design space.

704
00:56:11,200 --> 00:56:14,280
Whereas the old design space was just four layers.

705
00:56:14,660 --> 00:56:15,380
So this is the old.

706
00:56:15,740 --> 00:56:20,020
Yeah, this is basically, this stack is so powerful.

707
00:56:20,120 --> 00:56:21,420
It gave us everything that we have today.

708
00:56:21,500 --> 00:56:23,500
It's given us Riverside that we're talking on.

709
00:56:23,800 --> 00:56:26,020
It's given us Figma that we're designing on.

710
00:56:26,300 --> 00:56:27,020
It's given us Google.

711
00:56:27,120 --> 00:56:27,760
It's given us everything.

712
00:56:27,880 --> 00:56:28,640
It's fucking incredible.

713
00:56:29,140 --> 00:56:32,900
But now imagine if you add identity and payments,

714
00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:35,500
like baked into the stack, not as apps,

715
00:56:35,500 --> 00:56:41,300
because to date we've had this like weird situation where payments is kind of an application

716
00:56:41,300 --> 00:56:46,240
on top of this protocol stack and you know payments lives inside shit like stripe and

717
00:56:46,240 --> 00:56:52,960
paypal and you know all that junk um and shitty banks and identity has been a complete mess

718
00:56:52,960 --> 00:56:57,100
because you have a million and one identities in every single application as a feature

719
00:56:57,100 --> 00:57:04,660
like throw that shit out and let's move on to this new stack you have six layers two new protocols

720
00:57:04,660 --> 00:57:13,700
this is like a massive massive massive upgrade to the the digital experience um for the world and i

721
00:57:13,700 --> 00:57:18,920
think it's yeah anyway i said it before i'll say it again the renaissance in consumer applications

722
00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:23,580
and at some point business applications again because i think consumer apps usually kick off

723
00:57:23,580 --> 00:57:28,920
first that's the that's the initial wave and then later on like you know maybe five ten years from

724
00:57:28,920 --> 00:57:40,680
Now we'll get like new version of Slack, new version of, you know, Jira and linear and whatever else sort of like more business SaaS type products that, you know, maybe won't even be SaaS at that point.

725
00:57:40,780 --> 00:57:44,840
There will be paper use because you've got the ability to do micropayments with Bitcoin.

726
00:57:45,000 --> 00:57:48,040
So it's like the whole thing changes.

727
00:57:48,220 --> 00:57:51,080
That's a really, really, really, really exciting as an entrepreneur.

728
00:57:51,080 --> 00:57:58,300
yeah and i think by framing it this way by just adding two layers to the stack instead of saying

729
00:57:58,300 --> 00:58:04,320
oh you have to throw out everything else and build on this new stack um it's much more approachable

730
00:58:04,320 --> 00:58:11,640
and so it's like hey you've been handed two more stack layers and tools if you will to build your

731
00:58:11,640 --> 00:58:19,240
applications just view them as additive it's much more approachable for the layman way more

732
00:58:19,240 --> 00:58:24,940
approachable yeah for sure actually i um i didn't think of that explicitly but when i when i have

733
00:58:24,940 --> 00:58:30,500
shared this with people in the in sort of normie land outside of bitcoin because i've done a bunch

734
00:58:30,500 --> 00:58:36,980
of um talks and travel and discussions with people in that space this this comparison clicks for

735
00:58:36,980 --> 00:58:43,440
people they're like oh that's interesting like they don't sort of see bitcoin as this thing that

736
00:58:43,440 --> 00:58:48,200
they have to entirely switch to um and i think this is actually more powerful than pitching web

737
00:58:48,200 --> 00:58:52,320
3 you know because all the web 3 docs are like oh you know the internet is dead and come over here

738
00:58:52,320 --> 00:58:58,020
it's like well no it's just internet was missing this and now we can actually make the internet so

739
00:58:58,020 --> 00:59:05,020
much better yeah and since you've sort of shifted and realized i gotta go make this market we're

740
00:59:05,020 --> 00:59:12,020
gonna make a social events app that's global um that's what satlantis is going to be what have you

741
00:59:12,020 --> 00:59:17,840
what have you noticed in terms of user behaviors me touched on some earlier but what are sort of

742
00:59:17,840 --> 00:59:22,720
the most popular events that people are spinning up type of events.

743
00:59:23,460 --> 00:59:23,540
Yeah.

744
00:59:24,480 --> 00:59:28,320
The first thing I'll say is that it's just like makes sense to people.

745
00:59:28,620 --> 00:59:30,540
Like, you know, when I was, when I was,

746
00:59:30,680 --> 00:59:33,920
I used to struggle like explaining all the things that Solantis can do and

747
00:59:33,920 --> 00:59:35,860
everything like that. And they're like, Oh, that sounds really cool.

748
00:59:36,340 --> 00:59:39,380
Like, so what do I do? It's like, well,

749
00:59:39,620 --> 00:59:42,780
you could start here and you can post some content. It's like way too much shit.

750
00:59:43,780 --> 00:59:45,420
Whereas now it's just like, Hey,

751
00:59:45,420 --> 00:59:51,600
you're using meetup and you're paying for a crappy product come and move your um meetup across to

752
00:59:51,600 --> 00:59:56,940
atlantis you can set it up quicker you can even do things like you know one of the uh

753
00:59:56,940 --> 01:00:03,360
the things that meetup organizers hate is let's say you have a maximum capacity of 50 people

754
01:00:03,360 --> 01:00:07,520
and then you just get people just click register just because they click register but they don't

755
01:00:07,520 --> 01:00:12,220
have any intention of coming so kind of like uses up the wait list or uses up your rsvp list and then

756
01:00:12,220 --> 01:00:17,060
you had like room for 50 and then only 10 or 15 people turn up because the other 30 assholes

757
01:00:17,060 --> 01:00:20,560
just click the register button because there's no cost in doing that.

758
01:00:21,400 --> 01:00:26,720
With Bitcoin, you could put like a free ticket, but just make it 100 sats or something or make

759
01:00:26,720 --> 01:00:32,300
it 1000 sats. And then, you know, people sort of might even just think twice. And at the very least,

760
01:00:32,300 --> 01:00:36,940
if they don't turn up, then the event host, you know, got 1000 sats out of it or something like

761
01:00:36,940 --> 01:00:38,940
So you can start doing interesting things like that.

762
01:00:38,940 --> 01:00:47,940
The other one is we're partnering with Bitcoin conferences now, obviously being the low hanging fruit.

763
01:00:47,940 --> 01:00:50,940
But Loom actually does this really well.

764
01:00:50,940 --> 01:00:56,940
They have this calendar feature where you can associate events around a calendar and people can subscribe to a calendar.

765
01:00:56,940 --> 01:01:00,940
And that can be used both by communities, but also by conferences.

766
01:01:00,940 --> 01:01:02,940
We're adding a little bit more flexibility to that.

767
01:01:02,940 --> 01:01:06,060
And then obviously there's the social layer in the calendar that makes it a little bit smarter.

768
01:01:06,096 --> 01:01:13,836
but um yeah the one of the big features that we're fleshing out now we'll have ready this

769
01:01:13,836 --> 01:01:20,116
month for use in all the november conferences and december conferences coming up but you have like

770
01:01:20,116 --> 01:01:26,456
bitcoin amsterdam as your main calendar and then you can associate all the satellite events to it

771
01:01:26,456 --> 01:01:34,376
and now when people come to that event they can find where their friends are going who they know

772
01:01:34,376 --> 01:01:35,096
and all this sort of stuff.

773
01:01:35,136 --> 01:01:37,776
Because that's one thing when you go to these massive events,

774
01:01:38,116 --> 01:01:40,476
trying to coordinate and figure out where people are going,

775
01:01:40,776 --> 01:01:42,396
holy shit, it's a pain in the ass, right?

776
01:01:42,656 --> 01:01:44,596
But if you can see instantly, it's like, okay,

777
01:01:44,936 --> 01:01:46,336
six of my friends are going to this event,

778
01:01:46,416 --> 01:01:47,816
one of them is going to that event, this and that.

779
01:01:47,836 --> 01:01:50,976
You can make a really quick assessment on which ones to go to.

780
01:01:50,976 --> 01:01:53,816
And then you can add the events to your profile.

781
01:01:54,136 --> 01:01:56,316
So you can see which ones you're going to.

782
01:01:56,376 --> 01:01:57,236
You've got your tickets in there.

783
01:01:57,316 --> 01:01:58,076
It's all sort of inbuilt.

784
01:01:59,396 --> 01:02:02,116
The other thing, and this is part of a legacy feature,

785
01:02:02,116 --> 01:02:06,216
we had collections, which is places on a map.

786
01:02:06,676 --> 01:02:07,856
So we're going to keep that feature,

787
01:02:07,936 --> 01:02:09,796
but we're going to subordinate it to events.

788
01:02:10,496 --> 01:02:12,276
So instead, when you create an event,

789
01:02:12,956 --> 01:02:14,876
one of the biggest things that people have

790
01:02:14,876 --> 01:02:17,576
or biggest issues that they have when they're doing an event,

791
01:02:17,696 --> 01:02:19,796
particularly when they're traveling, is where do I go?

792
01:02:19,856 --> 01:02:20,396
What do I do?

793
01:02:20,856 --> 01:02:22,596
What are the cool places to hang out at?

794
01:02:22,676 --> 01:02:24,096
Which restaurant, which cafe, this and that.

795
01:02:24,476 --> 01:02:28,836
So as an event host, you can associate a list of your favorite places.

796
01:02:28,836 --> 01:02:36,536
And it could be like, here's the top 10 Bitcoin places around the event, or here's the top 10 brunch places, or here's the best gyms, whatever you want.

797
01:02:36,696 --> 01:02:38,796
Like you create a list and you append it to the event.

798
01:02:39,596 --> 01:02:46,316
And then people have their list there, they have their social graph there, they can pay in Bitcoin, and they have their places.

799
01:02:46,496 --> 01:02:55,436
And it's like a really beautiful sort of end-to-end solution for anyone running a meetup, a small event, or a conference that wants to run all of the other stuff around it.

800
01:02:56,576 --> 01:02:57,616
That would be powerful.

801
01:02:57,616 --> 01:02:59,316
There's a number of events I go to.

802
01:03:00,056 --> 01:03:01,056
You show up early.

803
01:03:01,316 --> 01:03:03,056
You're like, all right, where do I hang out before this thing?

804
01:03:03,556 --> 01:03:08,816
It's like, here's the best cocktail bar or before the event if you want to go.

805
01:03:09,176 --> 01:03:09,876
Something like that.

806
01:03:10,336 --> 01:03:10,496
Exactly.

807
01:03:10,676 --> 01:03:17,856
And the social graph actually works there as well because places are discovered by people on Atlantis and added.

808
01:03:18,376 --> 01:03:20,676
And people can bookmark those places when they add them to the list.

809
01:03:20,676 --> 01:03:26,416
So you can see immediately, oh, you know, one of my friends bookmarked this place or added this place or whatever.

810
01:03:26,416 --> 01:03:29,556
or it's recommended by the event host or, you know,

811
01:03:29,836 --> 01:03:32,916
35 people that I know in my social circle, you know,

812
01:03:32,956 --> 01:03:33,756
mention this place.

813
01:03:33,796 --> 01:03:41,596
So it's like there's a social graph utility there that is surfaced not for

814
01:03:41,596 --> 01:03:47,656
content purposes, but for, what do you call it, like validation purposes.

815
01:03:47,656 --> 01:03:52,596
Like that to me is a really interesting use case for an open social graph as

816
01:03:52,596 --> 01:03:54,676
opposed to, hey, post more content.

817
01:03:55,456 --> 01:03:55,556
Yeah.

818
01:03:56,416 --> 01:04:02,756
Now, we're getting into something I've intuitively believed is like social.

819
01:04:04,016 --> 01:04:07,136
It's been a good first use case, great first use case.

820
01:04:07,256 --> 01:04:07,916
I've used it.

821
01:04:08,216 --> 01:04:08,676
It's fun.

822
01:04:08,816 --> 01:04:13,816
To your point about attention being scarce, valuable, and having to cross post.

823
01:04:14,276 --> 01:04:18,616
Even I forget to cross post every once in a while.

824
01:04:18,616 --> 01:04:26,116
What are these unique use cases that don't exist anywhere else that can be built on Nostra to really draw people in?

825
01:04:26,116 --> 01:04:29,516
And then ultimately feed people to the social side of things.

826
01:04:30,716 --> 01:04:33,416
Maybe it'll be like a horseshoe that started with social.

827
01:04:33,916 --> 01:04:40,896
It really blows up because of a bunch of other things and then ends with this everything app where everything protocol.

828
01:04:41,056 --> 01:04:41,936
Everything protocol, yeah.

829
01:04:42,816 --> 01:04:43,896
With social at its core.

830
01:04:44,576 --> 01:04:45,456
Totally, totally.

831
01:04:45,616 --> 01:04:49,916
I really think that's going to happen, but I think it's going to take 10 years, right?

832
01:04:49,916 --> 01:04:57,996
I think to some degree, you know, we all sort of drank the Kool-Aid a little bit too quickly last year, I think.

833
01:04:58,396 --> 01:05:01,316
And we were like, oh, yeah, your Nostra is going to take over the world and all this sort of stuff.

834
01:05:01,636 --> 01:05:12,136
And we sort of underestimated how hard it really is to sustain the network effect cold start problem solution, right?

835
01:05:12,156 --> 01:05:17,116
That is really, really, really, really difficult to keep churning.

836
01:05:17,116 --> 01:05:27,896
um so yeah we'll get there in the end and who knows maybe 10 years from now x and rumble and

837
01:05:27,896 --> 01:05:33,016
all that sort of stuff realize that hey we should actually make our applications nostril compatible

838
01:05:33,016 --> 01:05:38,576
because it makes sense to plug into that open network in the same way as they use the freaking

839
01:05:38,576 --> 01:05:43,956
internet you know what they'll realize hopefully is that this new internet stack with payments and

840
01:05:43,956 --> 01:05:46,556
with identity built in is of benefit to them.

841
01:05:46,556 --> 01:05:50,916
So then they come and move across in the same way as fucking incumbents,

842
01:05:51,056 --> 01:05:54,176
like in the past or like, you know, IBM ended up building laptops,

843
01:05:54,396 --> 01:05:55,976
you know, thanks to Apple.

844
01:05:56,136 --> 01:05:59,196
Like, so, you know, they came this way.

845
01:05:59,316 --> 01:06:03,936
So that's, that's what great technological revolutions do is they,

846
01:06:04,276 --> 01:06:08,676
they enable startups to come and do something new to create entirely new

847
01:06:08,676 --> 01:06:11,076
markets, as you mentioned, and then the incumbents follow.

848
01:06:11,696 --> 01:06:12,716
That to me is really cool.

849
01:06:12,716 --> 01:06:18,376
no and i and as you're explaining that too i think that's one of the key breakthroughs

850
01:06:18,376 --> 01:06:22,436
that you've honed in on too like when i think of primal specifically like

851
01:06:22,436 --> 01:06:28,476
it is becoming an everything app like it's substack x and now twitch all in one with

852
01:06:28,476 --> 01:06:36,196
their live streaming um and it's incredible as a content creator we definitely make way more money

853
01:06:36,196 --> 01:06:42,656
publishing our stuff on Nostra than we do on X or YouTube or anywhere else.

854
01:06:43,716 --> 01:06:46,736
But it's that, and going back to the Cold Star problem, I think,

855
01:06:47,196 --> 01:06:49,016
in the digital sphere, highly competitive,

856
01:06:49,396 --> 01:06:52,996
like really bringing it in the meat space via something like events

857
01:06:52,996 --> 01:06:58,076
and adding value there, I think is going to be critical

858
01:06:58,076 --> 01:07:02,136
because the digital landscape, as we all know, is hyper-competitive

859
01:07:02,136 --> 01:07:06,076
and there are a ton of meat space-oriented things.

860
01:07:06,196 --> 01:07:08,576
experiences that are severely lacking.

861
01:07:09,576 --> 01:07:12,676
It's a wide open landscape for people to really tap into.

862
01:07:13,316 --> 01:07:13,816
Totally.

863
01:07:13,936 --> 01:07:17,236
You know, another thing that reminds me of speaking of meatspace is

864
01:07:17,236 --> 01:07:23,896
since I last spoke to you, you know,

865
01:07:23,916 --> 01:07:28,956
I've sort of had this like on-off relationship with Twitter,

866
01:07:29,116 --> 01:07:31,316
with Substack, with all of my socials actually.

867
01:07:31,316 --> 01:07:34,736
You know, I'll get in there again and I'll say a bunch of things

868
01:07:34,736 --> 01:07:38,556
and I'll get excited and then some shit will send me into a tailspin rage.

869
01:07:38,676 --> 01:07:42,276
Like the last thing was this whole like Charlie Coke and arena thing, man.

870
01:07:42,336 --> 01:07:43,336
That fucked me up.

871
01:07:43,396 --> 01:07:46,436
Like when I saw that poor girl get like stabbed, holy fuck, man.

872
01:07:46,476 --> 01:07:48,416
I couldn't sleep for a week.

873
01:07:48,536 --> 01:07:49,656
Like that shook me up.

874
01:07:49,716 --> 01:07:55,356
And I went on a rampage like fucking yelling and saying like we should pick up arms and

875
01:07:55,356 --> 01:07:56,556
go to war and all this sort of stuff.

876
01:07:56,556 --> 01:08:00,876
And I kind of I had a chance to like step away from that for a little bit.

877
01:08:00,956 --> 01:08:04,536
I was like, man, you know, I get that I'm a passionate guy.

878
01:08:04,536 --> 01:08:22,821
but you know I 10 miles away there nothing I can do and you know yelling on Twitter doesn actually help the situation and to some degree I like I impotent in that sense like I can do anything about it and all I did was create a bunch

879
01:08:22,821 --> 01:08:28,401
of stress for myself um and not being able to sleep and being pissed off about everything um

880
01:08:28,401 --> 01:08:35,141
so I've kind of made the decision honestly due to take a massive hiatus from the online world like

881
01:08:35,141 --> 01:08:37,921
I don't give a shit about like I deleted the apps all from my phone.

882
01:08:38,381 --> 01:08:41,101
I'm not going to post anymore for a while, if ever.

883
01:08:41,801 --> 01:08:43,401
And this,

884
01:08:43,521 --> 01:08:46,881
this shift with Atlanta to becoming more an events app,

885
01:08:46,921 --> 01:08:49,621
it's made me rethink like,

886
01:08:50,201 --> 01:08:52,101
what are we doing here and why are we doing it?

887
01:08:52,101 --> 01:08:56,781
And I've come to the conclusion that I actually want to build an app that

888
01:08:56,781 --> 01:08:59,821
does like gets people to do shit in the real world.

889
01:09:00,781 --> 01:09:03,081
And get, get the fuck off your screen,

890
01:09:03,081 --> 01:09:11,261
like get off social media get off like your phone and go and do something in the real world um and

891
01:09:11,261 --> 01:09:17,661
i sensed that in myself and i've sensed that in myself for a little while um and maybe it's because

892
01:09:17,661 --> 01:09:20,641
i'm getting old maybe it's because i'm a dad now and like i'm more interested in actually hanging

893
01:09:20,641 --> 01:09:25,461
out with the baby than like scrolling twitter or anything like that um but i've spoken to a bunch

894
01:09:25,461 --> 01:09:31,941
of people who are all sort of kind of have had this almost call it like a burnout like a digital

895
01:09:31,941 --> 01:09:36,501
burnout they're like fucking done like man it's the same thing over and over again there's a new

896
01:09:36,501 --> 01:09:43,601
hysteria every single week like i'm over it i want to go do some stuff in the real world and um

897
01:09:43,601 --> 01:09:51,361
it's made me like i went and did some digging into the statistics and like what are the trends showing

898
01:09:51,361 --> 01:09:57,481
and i don't think a lot of people realize but events were like pumping before covid

899
01:09:57,481 --> 01:10:03,441
then obviously with lockdowns and everything like that it crushed everything um but there's been a

900
01:10:03,441 --> 01:10:10,381
fucking massive rebound there is almost double the number of events going on in the world um across

901
01:10:10,381 --> 01:10:14,581
everything from like you know the large end of town like music festivals and all that sort of

902
01:10:14,581 --> 01:10:17,421
shit all the way through to small meetings everything there's almost double the number

903
01:10:17,421 --> 01:10:23,621
of events happening now than pre-covid it's insane like this massive like whiplash effect

904
01:10:23,621 --> 01:10:28,341
where people are like sort of craving meeting up in person i guess we we can probably sense it as a

905
01:10:28,341 --> 01:10:34,681
proxy from the bitcoin space right imagine remember 2019 when we first met in um in uh bitcoin uh

906
01:10:34,681 --> 01:10:41,481
the bitcoin meetup no in san francisco san francisco yeah 2019 yeah 2019 dude like we were all

907
01:10:41,481 --> 01:10:44,821
fucking babies we're all innocent shit like that and there was like what three bitcoin conferences

908
01:10:44,821 --> 01:10:50,021
that year now how many is there it's like 100 it's insane yeah right so it's like people want

909
01:10:50,021 --> 01:10:54,781
to meet in meat space um so when you're saying sort of meat space before it's like i'm kind of

910
01:10:54,781 --> 01:10:59,941
rethinking this product it's like okay i want to build something for i'm calling it i don't know

911
01:10:59,941 --> 01:11:04,281
if it's the right term but like the experience economy it's like okay what are things in the

912
01:11:04,281 --> 01:11:12,101
real world events obviously um that you know people are interested in doing so it's like to

913
01:11:12,101 --> 01:11:16,701
me events and places is kind of like the the sweet spot there's something there amongst those two

914
01:11:16,701 --> 01:11:22,321
things. And that's why I decided to like keep the collections feature in because that thing is still

915
01:11:22,321 --> 01:11:26,481
associated to places. Like you want to know where to go and what to do, but in the real world.

916
01:11:28,241 --> 01:11:31,541
So anyway, yeah, when you said meet space, you reminded me of that. It's like,

917
01:11:31,541 --> 01:11:38,781
it feels like a more fulfilling mission for me than building another social app. It's like,

918
01:11:38,841 --> 01:11:43,261
okay, get out there and meet people in the real world, build actual networks again,

919
01:11:43,261 --> 01:11:46,401
and friendships and communities.

920
01:11:46,741 --> 01:11:49,021
And like, that's what people are craving.

921
01:11:49,321 --> 01:11:53,001
And I think more people are going to wake up to that.

922
01:11:53,101 --> 01:11:56,721
And we're going to see a massive, especially even now as like AI,

923
01:11:56,721 --> 01:12:00,521
this is the last I'll say on it, is as AI kind of turns a lot of the internet

924
01:12:00,521 --> 01:12:05,281
into kind of like slop, like there's like infinite content now,

925
01:12:05,361 --> 01:12:06,801
there's infinite things you can get on the web,

926
01:12:06,881 --> 01:12:07,601
there's all this sort of stuff.

927
01:12:07,901 --> 01:12:10,541
So, you know, as human beings, what do we do?

928
01:12:10,601 --> 01:12:12,881
We sort of, we get overabundance here.

929
01:12:12,881 --> 01:12:14,821
So we look for what is the scarce thing.

930
01:12:15,441 --> 01:12:21,141
And the thing that's becoming more scarce is actually like connection and like real curation, real community.

931
01:12:21,761 --> 01:12:29,321
And that you, you know, as much as you can do something over a Zoom call, like real connection happens in person.

932
01:12:29,781 --> 01:12:37,161
And if we can facilitate that through a good product, that to me gets very exciting.

933
01:12:37,161 --> 01:12:43,341
It gives me a mission, again, that I want to work at 24-7.

934
01:12:44,701 --> 01:12:46,901
Yeah, as you're saying, I'm just writing some things down.

935
01:12:47,381 --> 01:12:53,601
I've noticed in myself, I have somebody who, I mean, I want to call myself an avid,

936
01:12:53,941 --> 01:13:00,721
or not an avid, but I'm not wholly engaged in the culture wars,

937
01:13:00,781 --> 01:13:04,141
but from time to time over the last five years specifically,

938
01:13:04,141 --> 01:13:07,901
I've definitely dove in, gotten involved to a certain extent,

939
01:13:07,981 --> 01:13:10,141
but I've, to your point, I'm like digital burnout.

940
01:13:10,441 --> 01:13:12,801
The culture war stuff is becoming abundantly clear.

941
01:13:13,441 --> 01:13:17,541
At the algos, the powers that be, whatever you want to point flame at,

942
01:13:17,721 --> 01:13:21,661
I don't care who it is, it's becoming very clear that the divide and conquer

943
01:13:21,661 --> 01:13:26,601
strategy is definitely being deployed in the digital world.

944
01:13:26,821 --> 01:13:29,941
And the best option is just not participate.

945
01:13:29,941 --> 01:13:34,481
And so I'm particularly at last going back to like Charlie Kirk and Iran.

946
01:13:34,621 --> 01:13:38,161
I think those were the last two straws that broke the camel's back for me.

947
01:13:38,201 --> 01:13:43,981
It's like I really want what I put out there and I haven't been perfect.

948
01:13:43,981 --> 01:13:59,921
But when I put out there on X or whatever social, I was just like maniacally focus on Bitcoin and freedom tech and just like present solutions and don't get drug into the mud of the culture wars and focusing on the problem.

949
01:13:59,941 --> 01:14:05,001
because it is soul sucking and it never, nothing ever happens.

950
01:14:05,221 --> 01:14:08,601
It's like, and it never ends as well. Yeah. It's, it's,

951
01:14:08,681 --> 01:14:11,441
and it's really hard when you're a passionate person. I, I, I,

952
01:14:12,061 --> 01:14:16,161
the, the distance between my brain and the fucking keyboard is like very short.

953
01:14:16,541 --> 01:14:20,681
Like, so I ended up like saying a lot of things that are like, you know,

954
01:14:20,701 --> 01:14:23,321
wild and, you know, a lot of people think I'm just a fucking asshole.

955
01:14:23,321 --> 01:14:27,801
Um, but it's like, it doesn't come from a place of, um, uh,

956
01:14:27,801 --> 01:14:31,481
like being a bad person necessarily comes from a place of like,

957
01:14:31,501 --> 01:14:32,021
I give a shit.

958
01:14:32,141 --> 01:14:33,061
And when I see bad things,

959
01:14:33,061 --> 01:14:33,301
I'm like,

960
01:14:33,361 --> 01:14:33,721
fuck it.

961
01:14:33,721 --> 01:14:34,541
I got to say something,

962
01:14:34,661 --> 01:14:35,381
you know,

963
01:14:35,401 --> 01:14:38,161
I went through all the crap with like COVID and everything like that.

964
01:14:38,181 --> 01:14:39,401
And yeah,

965
01:14:39,401 --> 01:14:39,821
I don't know.

966
01:14:39,881 --> 01:14:40,621
I'm too old for this shit,

967
01:14:40,661 --> 01:14:40,801
bro.

968
01:14:41,601 --> 01:14:42,121
It's like,

969
01:14:42,361 --> 01:14:43,801
that's the thing.

970
01:14:43,881 --> 01:14:45,061
I was joking about it.

971
01:14:46,381 --> 01:14:46,981
We had,

972
01:14:47,101 --> 01:14:47,501
uh,

973
01:14:47,701 --> 01:14:49,721
it was at an event last week and we were,

974
01:14:50,341 --> 01:14:51,301
it was meat space event.

975
01:14:51,301 --> 01:14:55,661
We're talking about everything going on from Charlie Kirk and like the

976
01:14:55,661 --> 01:14:57,341
theories around it.

977
01:14:57,341 --> 01:15:00,221
like it's obvious that the FBI story doesn't make any sense.

978
01:15:00,221 --> 01:15:01,181
And I was like, you know what?

979
01:15:01,801 --> 01:15:04,781
I need to find a young Gen Z or tap him on the shoulder.

980
01:15:04,841 --> 01:15:05,741
Be like, this is you, brother.

981
01:15:05,941 --> 01:15:06,841
I don't have any more.

982
01:15:06,841 --> 01:15:07,621
It's your turn now.

983
01:15:10,421 --> 01:15:11,341
You don't have any more.

984
01:15:12,261 --> 01:15:12,501
Yeah.

985
01:15:12,701 --> 01:15:14,581
We, we done our time in the trenches, dude.

986
01:15:14,721 --> 01:15:14,901
Honestly.

987
01:15:18,021 --> 01:15:28,546
Especially when you have kids it like is is this is this time well spent this is not the reason why we moved back to where we from originally but like i have noticed we been

988
01:15:28,546 --> 01:15:33,326
home in the philadelphia area where my wife and i both grew up for three months four months now

989
01:15:33,326 --> 01:15:40,126
and it's just like we've got family around the corner multiple um family members like within a

990
01:15:40,126 --> 01:15:46,126
half mile yeah right yeah right they've got kids yeah right age and yeah right we find ourselves

991
01:15:46,126 --> 01:15:49,526
like when they get home from school it's like all right where are we gonna do we're gonna play your

992
01:15:49,526 --> 01:15:54,846
cousins we're gonna go to the park it's like much more fulfilling don't worry i'm not turning into

993
01:15:54,846 --> 01:16:00,366
grill dad i'm not gonna i'm not gonna be begin saying did you see that game last night but it's

994
01:16:00,366 --> 01:16:08,206
like where where's time best spent and i truly believe there is like this push as if you got the

995
01:16:08,206 --> 01:16:13,866
basement the censorship rises like the culture wars are the noise that they're trying to drag

996
01:16:13,866 --> 01:16:21,666
you into and like focus on the signal connection meet space bitcoin nostre and sort of build around

997
01:16:21,666 --> 01:16:26,286
yeah bro yeah bro distractions that they're putting in front of you yeah bro totally man

998
01:16:26,286 --> 01:16:36,066
totally totally we're getting old bro we are so if there's any generation z gen zers out there

999
01:16:36,066 --> 01:16:40,226
listening to this and want the tap on the shoulder and sort of the playbook for how to engage uh

1000
01:16:40,866 --> 01:16:43,746
dm me actually don't you don't want this life

1001
01:16:43,746 --> 01:16:51,606
it's not worth it it's part of family it yeah that's true i was gonna say it builds character

1002
01:16:51,606 --> 01:16:56,526
maybe in your um in your sort of like mid-20s go hard but then as soon as possible

1003
01:16:56,526 --> 01:17:03,686
get yourself a wife have family and step out of the noise like there's a time and a place for

1004
01:17:03,686 --> 01:17:08,066
all of these things you know everyone's got to sort of go and build up some scars and shit like

1005
01:17:08,066 --> 01:17:16,366
that um if you want to go build up the scars you want to meet other like-minded individuals do that

1006
01:17:16,366 --> 01:17:23,626
make sure you download satlanus and uh start an event yeah meet up at the local pub this is sweet

1007
01:17:23,626 --> 01:17:29,226
i really this conversation went uh in a really good direction i'm happy it did particularly as

1008
01:17:29,226 --> 01:17:34,506
pertains to again nostril and how we're thinking about growing that network specifically i think

1009
01:17:34,506 --> 01:17:40,946
really trying to focus on areas where a market doesn't exist yet and leveraging the unique

1010
01:17:40,946 --> 01:17:48,226
tool stack that exists on the existing web now bitcoin in nostril is how you grow that network

1011
01:17:48,226 --> 01:17:53,066
effect appreciate it and yeah i was uh i wasn't sure where this conversation was gonna go either

1012
01:17:53,066 --> 01:17:57,026
So I appreciate you letting me rant and ramble.

1013
01:17:58,406 --> 01:18:05,446
I'm in the process of rethinking how Svetsky shows up in the world.

1014
01:18:06,166 --> 01:18:11,366
And for a while, I've always been an entrepreneur first,

1015
01:18:11,866 --> 01:18:17,146
but I think most people in the Bitcoin space actually know me as a writer

1016
01:18:17,146 --> 01:18:20,426
because I wrote a lot, I guess.

1017
01:18:20,426 --> 01:18:28,286
but that's always been more of a hobby than a than a real vocation and it's it's weird like I

1018
01:18:28,286 --> 01:18:34,266
feel like I've come full circle where now the thing that gives me the most joy is I mean I

1019
01:18:34,266 --> 01:18:38,686
still enjoy conversations like this because you know some of these conversations are really good

1020
01:18:38,686 --> 01:18:45,446
but I don't even necessarily want to be very public anymore like you know I'll have like

1021
01:18:45,446 --> 01:18:49,606
good conversations where I know if there's a good podcast host or something like that we can dig into

1022
01:18:49,606 --> 01:18:59,666
something like we did today but i i i much prefer to sit down with my team and build cool shit like

1023
01:18:59,666 --> 01:19:06,086
i i studied engineering when i was uh when i was young and that's like solving problems and

1024
01:19:06,086 --> 01:19:10,666
building stuff like gives me a lot of juice and then you know you get a bit of notoriety online

1025
01:19:10,666 --> 01:19:14,266
and you think you're a fucking celebrity and all this sort of stuff and then like you know that

1026
01:19:14,266 --> 01:19:23,346
kind of sucks you into that world but man it's um it's a it's a tough life um it's you know

1027
01:19:23,346 --> 01:19:29,246
everything comes with you know pros and cons obviously but you know this sort of new chapter

1028
01:19:29,246 --> 01:19:36,766
of setiki now like being a dad and like trying to build something for meat space um it feels like

1029
01:19:36,766 --> 01:19:42,186
so much more peaceful and wholesome at least for this stage i don't know it's maybe five years from

1030
01:19:42,186 --> 01:19:47,886
now I decided to be a raging fucking lunatic again and come people maybe I'll have my my next

1031
01:19:47,886 --> 01:19:58,826
Nassim Taleb arc or something like that no I mean I think similarly here obviously I run a podcast

1032
01:19:58,826 --> 01:20:05,186
written newsletter I'm very online to some extent but uh I think the thing that has really driven me

1033
01:20:05,186 --> 01:20:11,266
and given me the most fulfillment um obviously family moving closer to family but here on like

1034
01:20:11,266 --> 01:20:28,526
I've really been focused on the business side of TFTC, working with Ed, our head of growth to really just create like a management framework of how we actually operate the business and sort of expand the opportunities that we go after that aren't podcasts, newsletter, X-Focus.

1035
01:20:28,526 --> 01:20:39,546
Like what else can we do to sort of support our key vision of highlighting signal and helping people become more sovereign beyond what we're doing with the content?

1036
01:20:39,546 --> 01:20:45,086
And that's been really fun, mental and exercise that we've been playing through for the last few months.

1037
01:20:45,606 --> 01:20:48,346
No, I mean, the Opportunity Cost app is fucking brilliant, dude.

1038
01:20:48,486 --> 01:20:51,346
Like when I saw that, I was like, why hasn't anyone done this before?

1039
01:20:51,406 --> 01:20:52,246
This is like so good.

1040
01:20:52,766 --> 01:20:55,826
Like it's so like it's such a simple tool.

1041
01:20:57,566 --> 01:20:59,266
Yeah, dude, kudos to you guys.

1042
01:20:59,266 --> 01:21:14,946
Like that's that's that's an example of people who actually, you know, are creative and solving something very clear because they have an information edge, which as Bitcoin as we do, like we're ahead of 99 percent of the world.

1043
01:21:14,946 --> 01:21:19,906
Like people haven't even changed the paradigm yet of their method of thinking.

1044
01:21:20,266 --> 01:21:24,026
As we said earlier, it's like they still perceive Bitcoin as an investment for fuck's sake.

1045
01:21:24,546 --> 01:21:30,666
Even though maybe they see it less speculative now, it is still in the in the mental category of an investment.

1046
01:21:31,346 --> 01:21:34,606
Like, you know, we're sort of like 50 years ahead of them.

1047
01:21:34,686 --> 01:21:39,766
We're sort of seeing Bitcoin as like not only just money, but now it's like it's a it's a tool.

1048
01:21:39,766 --> 01:21:43,386
Like, and it's, that is completely different paradigm.

1049
01:21:43,566 --> 01:21:46,906
And that's where great products come from that are genuinely futuristic.

1050
01:21:47,666 --> 01:21:48,066
Yeah.

1051
01:21:49,126 --> 01:21:50,486
And Zep, I guess, last point on that.

1052
01:21:50,566 --> 01:21:51,386
Thank you, number one.

1053
01:21:51,526 --> 01:21:55,646
But number two, for any Bitcoiners, particularly like us who've been here for a while, I think

1054
01:21:55,646 --> 01:22:02,126
that's the most important thing is recognize, obviously, we have this information asymmetry

1055
01:22:02,126 --> 01:22:05,986
with this arbitrage that we're taking advantage of, obviously, by stacking sacks and building

1056
01:22:05,986 --> 01:22:06,426
around it.

1057
01:22:06,426 --> 01:22:11,566
but I think patients recognizing it's a marathon and the market's going to come

1058
01:22:11,566 --> 01:22:12,146
to us eventually,

1059
01:22:12,146 --> 01:22:17,266
but it had its own pace and staying sane while that process plays out is

1060
01:22:17,266 --> 01:22:18,926
incredibly important.

1061
01:22:19,346 --> 01:22:20,986
There's going to be a lot of burnout and all that,

1062
01:22:21,086 --> 01:22:32,851
but I think it happening It happening at its own pace and just yeah you don want to be like the guy in the cave who gets close to the diamonds and then turns around

1063
01:22:33,111 --> 01:22:34,371
Like, just stay the course.

1064
01:22:35,091 --> 01:22:36,231
Try to touch grass.

1065
01:22:36,931 --> 01:22:41,691
Make sure your mental health, for lack of a better term,

1066
01:22:42,051 --> 01:22:45,471
your mental clarity is probably the better term,

1067
01:22:45,691 --> 01:22:46,991
is where it needs to be.

1068
01:22:47,471 --> 01:22:48,371
Totally, totally.

1069
01:22:49,631 --> 01:22:50,951
When Treasury Company?

1070
01:22:52,051 --> 01:22:58,851
never it's uh this is tftc is a bitcoin treasury company we just have an operating business that

1071
01:22:58,851 --> 01:23:03,351
that's it like that provides value to people you actually have an actual business that makes

1072
01:23:03,351 --> 01:23:08,711
bitcoin that's it yeah like it's it's it's so funny when um you know because i i got asked by

1073
01:23:08,711 --> 01:23:14,031
that when um when we're doing like a little uh fundraiser um oh actually we were about to start

1074
01:23:14,031 --> 01:23:17,191
a fundraiser and i was in prague and you know people started asking me so they're like so you're

1075
01:23:17,191 --> 01:23:23,171
going to go public and i was like what for what and they're like you know so you can put bitcoin

1076
01:23:23,171 --> 01:23:27,751
on the balance sheet i'm like well no i think we're just going to try and get revenue and

1077
01:23:27,751 --> 01:23:32,251
earn money in bitcoin and like sort of looking at me like what the fuck's wrong with you and i'm

1078
01:23:32,251 --> 01:23:37,331
like looking at them like what the fuck's wrong with you um it's yeah it's hilarious to watch man

1079
01:23:37,331 --> 01:23:42,771
what a what an interesting world i mean i've been saying it publicly for months

1080
01:23:42,771 --> 01:23:45,771
especially during paper bitcoin summer but

1081
01:23:45,771 --> 01:23:51,851
caveman to me is like it's too good to be true yeah yeah yeah it's just like nothing nothing in

1082
01:23:51,851 --> 01:23:57,771
life is that easy and not that it's easy to go through all the seo i mean relatively easy to go

1083
01:23:57,771 --> 01:24:05,651
through the sec paperwork and raise some capital sell the vision but um obviously that takes work

1084
01:24:05,651 --> 01:24:10,891
but um i think you can just get something to market and turn on a magic bitcoin printing

1085
01:24:10,891 --> 01:24:15,751
machine seems a bit naive to me i think there will be some that do it successfully but it's

1086
01:24:15,751 --> 01:24:24,291
economy is a scale game that a few players have yeah 100 massive head start on 100 it'll be like

1087
01:24:24,291 --> 01:24:29,111
the ai spaceman like there'll be like three four winners and like this idea that everyone you know

1088
01:24:29,111 --> 01:24:33,291
everything there's gonna be hundreds of bitcoin treasury companies all this sort of stuff it's

1089
01:24:33,291 --> 01:24:40,831
fucking ludicrous um and yeah it's interesting yeah build a product or service that brings people

1090
01:24:40,831 --> 01:24:45,671
value they pay for it and uh you produce it cheaper than they pay for it and you sweep

1091
01:24:45,671 --> 01:24:51,631
that excess in the bitcoin bitcoin economics 101 i was watching um the count of monte cristo with

1092
01:24:51,631 --> 01:24:57,991
my wife a couple weeks ago and um while they're digging in the um in the in the tunnel trying to

1093
01:24:57,991 --> 01:25:05,171
get out of the prison the the priest asks dante's is like define economics and he sort of like says

1094
01:25:05,171 --> 01:25:07,691
being able to create a surplus

1095
01:25:07,691 --> 01:25:09,591
blah blah blah and then he says in short

1096
01:25:09,591 --> 01:25:11,291
dig now

1097
01:25:11,291 --> 01:25:12,511
eat later

1098
01:25:12,511 --> 01:25:15,691
that's it, there's your economics

1099
01:25:15,691 --> 01:25:17,411
do something and

1100
01:25:17,411 --> 01:25:19,311
produce surplus and that's it

1101
01:25:19,311 --> 01:25:21,191
it's not complicated

1102
01:25:21,191 --> 01:25:22,511
it's not

1103
01:25:22,511 --> 01:25:26,071
I wouldn't even call it greed

1104
01:25:26,071 --> 01:25:29,851
I guess it's a FOMO to an extent

1105
01:25:29,851 --> 01:25:32,111
this idea like we need to stack

1106
01:25:32,111 --> 01:25:33,891
as many sats now, which I get

1107
01:25:33,891 --> 01:25:35,611
I've had that feeling personally as well.

1108
01:25:37,071 --> 01:25:39,531
The land grab, the gold rush, whatever you want to call it.

1109
01:25:39,611 --> 01:25:40,971
That's what's driving a lot of this.

1110
01:25:41,131 --> 01:25:43,411
And it's like, ah, I agree.

1111
01:25:43,611 --> 01:25:45,171
But is this the best way to go about it?

1112
01:25:45,171 --> 01:25:45,531
I don't know.

1113
01:25:45,871 --> 01:25:46,391
I don't think so.

1114
01:25:46,971 --> 01:25:47,071
Yeah.

1115
01:25:47,231 --> 01:25:50,111
For the people, you know, and just the benefit of the doubt,

1116
01:25:50,211 --> 01:25:52,831
for like the people who know what they're doing there in capital markets

1117
01:25:52,831 --> 01:25:54,031
and shit like that, yeah, whatever.

1118
01:25:54,171 --> 01:25:55,411
You know, they know that game.

1119
01:25:55,551 --> 01:25:57,291
And there's probably like the few people, as you said,

1120
01:25:57,331 --> 01:25:58,411
that will be successful at that.

1121
01:25:58,411 --> 01:26:12,631
But man, it's a weird relic of the fiat world that something like that can actually happen.

1122
01:26:13,931 --> 01:26:16,291
It's sort of like a strange period in history.

1123
01:26:16,551 --> 01:26:18,491
People look back and be like, that actually happened.

1124
01:26:19,691 --> 01:26:19,931
Yeah.

1125
01:26:19,931 --> 01:26:21,711
and I think

1126
01:26:21,711 --> 01:26:22,631
the next 12 months

1127
01:26:22,631 --> 01:26:22,971
will

1128
01:26:22,971 --> 01:26:25,771
will reveal a lot

1129
01:26:25,771 --> 01:26:26,611
about the

1130
01:26:26,611 --> 01:26:27,671
efficacy of

1131
01:26:27,671 --> 01:26:29,211
of these strategies

1132
01:26:29,211 --> 01:26:29,971
mm-hmm

1133
01:26:29,971 --> 01:26:30,851
mm-hmm

1134
01:26:30,851 --> 01:26:31,991
oh

1135
01:26:31,991 --> 01:26:33,351
awesome

1136
01:26:33,351 --> 01:26:33,591
maybe

1137
01:26:33,591 --> 01:26:34,431
maybe

1138
01:26:34,431 --> 01:26:36,471
we'll talk again

1139
01:26:36,471 --> 01:26:37,931
at some point

1140
01:26:37,931 --> 01:26:38,811
next year

1141
01:26:38,811 --> 01:26:39,271
hopefully not

1142
01:26:39,271 --> 01:26:39,911
a whole year

1143
01:26:39,911 --> 01:26:41,711
maybe the first quarter

1144
01:26:41,711 --> 01:26:42,191
second quarter

1145
01:26:42,191 --> 01:26:42,711
next year

1146
01:26:42,711 --> 01:26:43,351
catch up on

1147
01:26:43,351 --> 01:26:43,831
SatLantis

1148
01:26:43,831 --> 01:26:45,571
and retrospective

1149
01:26:45,571 --> 01:26:45,831
on

1150
01:26:45,831 --> 01:26:46,851
the performance

1151
01:26:46,851 --> 01:26:47,891
of the treasury companies

1152
01:26:47,891 --> 01:26:48,391
totally

1153
01:26:48,391 --> 01:26:49,331
we should definitely

1154
01:26:49,331 --> 01:26:49,771
do that

1155
01:26:49,931 --> 01:26:56,451
All right, we've got Logan's got the links, the SatLantis, where everybody can find it.

1156
01:26:56,451 --> 01:26:57,511
So we'll put that in the show notes.

1157
01:26:58,651 --> 01:27:02,751
Freaks, particularly focus on Nostra and growing Nostra specifically.

1158
01:27:04,111 --> 01:27:06,071
Take what we discussed here and really think about it.

1159
01:27:06,131 --> 01:27:10,531
I think this is really important because, again, you have Nostra, the protocol.

1160
01:27:10,871 --> 01:27:12,631
People are building businesses on top of it.

1161
01:27:13,071 --> 01:27:18,171
Should we be replicating businesses that already exist in the Web 2.0 world?

1162
01:27:18,171 --> 01:27:20,831
if that's what you want to refer to it as,

1163
01:27:20,931 --> 01:27:22,691
or if you just go create new markets,

1164
01:27:22,791 --> 01:27:24,651
I think that's where the signal is

1165
01:27:24,651 --> 01:27:25,691
and where the growth comes from.

1166
01:27:25,851 --> 01:27:28,331
So shout out to you for honing in on that

1167
01:27:28,331 --> 01:27:30,911
and leaning into it at Atlantis.

1168
01:27:31,571 --> 01:27:31,931
Appreciate it, man.

1169
01:27:32,071 --> 01:27:32,811
I appreciate it.

1170
01:27:32,911 --> 01:27:35,391
And then I will throw one thing out there

1171
01:27:35,391 --> 01:27:36,071
for people listening.

1172
01:27:36,211 --> 01:27:39,831
If you're an event host, event organizer of any kind,

1173
01:27:39,891 --> 01:27:41,831
if you're using Meetup or Loom or anything,

1174
01:27:42,431 --> 01:27:44,331
would love you to come and give the app a try.

1175
01:27:46,331 --> 01:27:47,791
It's ready to rock and roll.

1176
01:27:47,791 --> 01:27:49,131
You can create an event on there.

1177
01:27:49,271 --> 01:27:50,031
It's super fast.

1178
01:27:50,711 --> 01:27:52,051
It doesn't have Bitcoin ticketing yet.

1179
01:27:52,091 --> 01:27:53,631
It'll have Bitcoin ticketing in a couple of weeks.

1180
01:27:53,891 --> 01:27:58,471
So by the time you hear this, it's either just about to be released or very shortly.

1181
01:27:59,771 --> 01:28:02,971
But yes, certainly by the end of October, you'll have Bitcoin ticketing.

1182
01:28:03,451 --> 01:28:05,151
It's Nostra enabled, all of that sort of stuff.

1183
01:28:05,851 --> 01:28:06,971
Would love some feedback.

1184
01:28:07,591 --> 01:28:08,411
It would mean a lot.

1185
01:28:08,531 --> 01:28:12,971
We really like our goal over the next six months is to have all of the Bitcoin conferences,

1186
01:28:13,211 --> 01:28:15,251
meetups, communities and all that sort of stuff be on there.

1187
01:28:15,251 --> 01:28:18,251
So it's like a real vibrant sort of place.

1188
01:28:18,251 --> 01:28:20,891
Like if you want to know anything that's going on in the meat space and

1189
01:28:20,891 --> 01:28:21,131
Bitcoin,

1190
01:28:21,251 --> 01:28:23,511
like this is wanted to be the place to be.

1191
01:28:24,031 --> 01:28:26,351
So we'd love anyone to try it out.

1192
01:28:27,411 --> 01:28:28,151
Check it out freaks.

1193
01:28:29,331 --> 01:28:30,191
Till next time.

1194
01:28:30,751 --> 01:28:31,131
Appreciate it.

1195
01:28:31,131 --> 01:28:31,471
Peace and love.

1196
01:28:32,951 --> 01:28:35,071
Thank you for listening to this episode of TFTC.

1197
01:28:35,591 --> 01:28:36,811
If you've made it this far,

1198
01:28:36,971 --> 01:28:39,111
I imagine you got some value out of the episode.

1199
01:28:39,591 --> 01:28:40,151
If so,

1200
01:28:40,271 --> 01:28:43,491
please share it far and wide with your friends and family.

1201
01:28:43,571 --> 01:28:44,911
We're looking to get the word out there.

1202
01:28:45,251 --> 01:28:53,031
Also, wherever you're listening, whether that's YouTube, Apple, Spotify, make sure you like and subscribe to the show.

1203
01:28:53,391 --> 01:28:57,771
And if you can leave a rating on the podcasting platforms, that goes a long way.

1204
01:28:58,191 --> 01:29:08,611
Last but not least, if you want to get these episodes a day early and ad free, make sure you download the Fountain podcasting app and go to fountain.fm to find that.

1205
01:29:08,611 --> 01:29:10,271
$5 a month

1206
01:29:10,271 --> 01:29:11,391
gets you every episode

1207
01:29:11,391 --> 01:29:12,251
a day early

1208
01:29:12,251 --> 01:29:13,111
ad free

1209
01:29:13,111 --> 01:29:14,691
helps the show

1210
01:29:14,691 --> 01:29:16,211
gives you incredible value

1211
01:29:16,211 --> 01:29:18,211
so please consider

1212
01:29:18,211 --> 01:29:19,791
subscribing via fountain

1213
01:29:19,791 --> 01:29:20,431
as well

1214
01:29:20,431 --> 01:29:21,891
thank you for your time

1215
01:29:21,891 --> 01:29:23,331
and until next time

1216
01:29:23,331 --> 01:29:24,131
okay